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Stories of Lehigh Valley LGBTQ+ Community Members (2022 - )
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Mary Foltz
Interviewee
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Adrian Shanker
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LGBT-29.xml
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5.4 February 4, 2022 Adrian Shanker, Part 1, February 4, 2022 LGBT-29 01:22:12 LVLGBT Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive Collection Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository Support for the collection of this interview was provided by the American Council of Learned Societies (ACLS). trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Adrian Shanker Mary Foltz video/mp4 ShankerAdrian_20220204_video_trimmed.mp4 1.0:|31(14)|76(14)|99(7)|118(4)|139(15)|160(4)|181(7)|200(7)|225(11)|254(5)|275(11)|296(5)|315(17)|336(9)|363(14)|386(2)|407(5)|424(8)|447(14)|470(4)|489(4)|510(4)|533(6)|554(6)|575(10)|596(12)|617(4)|642(2)|661(14)|686(5)|707(8)|736(5)|755(5)|780(7)|807(11)|832(7)|857(5)|880(13)|903(9)|926(8)|951(6)|974(14)|997(7)|1018(10)|1039(10)|1068(3)|1093(13)|1118(8)|1141(11)|1164(6)|1185(15)|1208(11)|1233(4)|1264(5)|1289(9)|1318(2)|1337(10)|1360(8)|1385(4)|1410(7)|1435(2)|1454(11)|1475(9)|1498(13)|1527(3)|1552(7)|1577(2)|1598(2)|1623(9)|1646(4)|1669(16)|1692(3)|1717(11)|1738(13)|1761(8)|1784(4)|1803(14)|1826(15)|1845(3)|1870(2)|1897(14)|1922(16)|1931(4) 0 https://youtu.be/ba_jW5pae2o YouTube video English 4 Interview Introductions MARY FOLTZ: My name is Mary Foltz and I’m here with Adrian Shanker to talk about his life and experiences in LGBT organizations in the Lehigh Valley, as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. Our project has funding from ACLS this year and we are meeting today at Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center on February 4th, 2022. So first, Adrian, thank you for talking with me today.
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 ; ADRIAN SHANKER: My pleasure.
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 ; MF: And I just want to start with a few business topics. Could you please state your full name and spell it for me?
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 ; AS: Adrian Shanker. He, him pronouns. A-D-R-I-A-N S-H-A-N-K-E-R. 0 95 Early Years of Life / Growing up in Westchester, New York MF: Okay, all right, business is out of the way. So I just want to start with a question. Would you be willing to tell me a little bit about the early years of your life?
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 ; AS: I was born in Manhattan and was raised in Westchester, New York in an activist family. My grandfather was the president of the American Federation of Teachers. My other grandfather was a gender theorist, is a gender theorist and psychologist who studies masculinity. And so I grew up in a very interesting home where -- very socially aware as a kid. I remember we had a family meeting about Magic Johnson’s AIDS diagnosis. We talked about Keith Haring’s Crack Is Wack mural in New York City that we passed all the time. 
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 ; 0 497 Values / Education & ; Activism MF: So you have a supportive family life. Imparting a variety of different values. Kindness, respecting people, navigating the early years of an epidemic with kindness for others and a sense of urgency that we’re talking about in family spaces. What’s happening to you in your educational experience?
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 ; AS: I’ll also just add for the earth as well. And other sentient beings. Today I’ve been -- I call myself an herbivore, but a vegetarian, for a long time. And I remember when I was a kid -- my mom tells me I was born to be a vegetarian, and that I remember going to a Chinese restaurant and they had a fish tank and there was also fish on the menu and I looked through the menu and I pointed to the tank and I said, “Fish.” Like people would eat those beautiful creatures, I can’t believe that. And so as a kid I ate like very little meat. Only the kind of stuff that you don’t always have control over your diet as a young kid. But in high school I became vegetarian. It’s also the same time I became an activist. And environmental justice has always been pretty important to me but at some point I made a decision to prioritize LGBTQ activism for my own career. But I definitely grew up in a community and a family where we talked about these as kind of in some ways intersecting issues, although we didn’t use that language. 0 920 ''Coming Out'' / Fox Lane GSA AS: [...] And remember going back to my school feeling like we can do this, we can become activists here. I also remember being surprised that I didn’t really lose any friends in high school when I came out. And I thought that I would because it was a time before mass acceptance for a lot of LGBTQ people, we’re still like early 2000s, so in terms of representation in mass media it still wasn’t there. I think Will & ; Grace was on. But that was probably it.
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 ; MF: Do you remember what it felt like before you came out? Were you anxious about it or --
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 ; AS: Not really, because it was really a self-realization more than a coming out. It was really a this is who I am and now I’m just going to tell people. It wasn’t an internal struggle. I had a very supportive family. And I was kind of in the group of students that would be self-defined as like punk rockers. So at the time many of them identified as bisexual which was fairly common among like punk rock-identified high school students in the early 2000s. Some of them still identify as queer or bi. But some don’t. 0 1155 Claiming Jewish Identity AS: [...] High school by the way is also where I claimed my Jewish identity. 
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 ; So I grew up culturally Jewish. I would say like Jewish heritage but religiously atheist, a secular family. But after my parents got divorced when I was in second grade, shortly after that I asked my mom if I could go to Hebrew school. And my mom was a very supportive mom, but I don’t think it’s what she was going for. But she did find one. We joined a Reform synagogue in Bedford, New York called Shaaray Tefila. And my mom was actually back in school studying to become a teacher, so she ended up teaching in the religious school there while she was in her graduate program. And I really loved going to Hebrew school. And I’m not sure why. But I really did. I loved learning about something I actually wanted to learn about. 0 1465 Life & ; Activism at Muhlenberg College MF: So let’s move a little bit further. What happens after high school to you? Where are you going next? How does the activity journey, your spiritual journey continue into the next years of your life?
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 ; AS: Yeah. So after high school I went to Muhlenberg College in Allentown, which is how I ended up in the Lehigh Valley as well. And I came into Muhlenberg basically expecting to eventually become a rabbi. And I was very excited about that actually. And there was a lot of reasons why I chose Muhlenberg for that reason. But I came in ready to go as an activist. And I had all the angst and all the passion and really no know-how for how to operationalize queer activism. 
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 ; And I remember early in college, probably my first month, there was a series that Muhlenberg has called Center for Ethics where they have a theme for the year and they bring guest speakers throughout the year, and they’re often tied to extra credit in classes if you attend and then do a write-up or things colleges do. And Kate Bornstein was one of the first speakers. And I didn’t know who she was, but I went, and it was recommended by one of my classes. And I also had the attitude that I really wanted to learn everything queer, so I was going to go. And she did kind of part talk and part performance. And I felt very inspired. And I still remember some of the things that she said in that talk my first year of college. 0 1847 Meeting Liz Bradbury and Trish Sullivan AS: [...] Another thing happened when I was in college, which is that I got connected with -- so the Hillel director at Muhlenberg, she’s no longer alive, but her name was Patti Mittleman. And she was a very important influence in my life. And one of the things that she did was she actually told me -- well, before that I had asked the community service office on campus if they could help me find an LGBT organization I could volunteer at. I had grown up going to the LGBT center in White Plains, New York for the youth program, and before that for a program they had for parents with gay kids. And when I moved here to go to college in Allentown I was looking around, there was no LGBT center. 
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 ; And I asked, “So is there an organization I can volunteer with?” And they took two weeks and came back and said, “We can’t find one.” And I remember complaining about this to Patti Mittleman, the Hillel director. And she basically said, “You have to meet these two people, Liz Bradbury and Patricia Sullivan.” And she connected me to them. We actually had one of the first events that I organized as a college student was for Liz to actually come speak on campus. And we did an exhibit of a photography series that she had created at the time about marriage equality, believe it was called Faces of Inequality. And as a student I actually in 2007 joined the board of directors for an organization that Liz and Trish had founded called Pennsylvania Diversity Network. 0 1940 Lobbying in Pennsylvania & ; Important Takeaways AS: [...] And before that in 2006 my first time lobbying in Pennsylvania was against the Pennsylvania Marriage Amendment in March 2006. And I got on a bus with some people who had become close friends and fellow activists. Reverend Goudy from Metropolitan Community Church [inaudible] Donna Cruciani from PPL Corporation, the head of their LGBT resource group before she retired, Steve Black, who had led PA-GALA, he’s unfortunately no longer alive. There was a few other people on that trip as well. And we met with legislators and as a college student it felt very empowering. 
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 ; It was also NRA lobby day in Harrisburg that day and I remember coming back and talking to one of my professors, Gary Jones, who taught a class I was taking called “Radicalism in American History.” And I was so upset that there was all these NRA people in the capitol. He said to me, he said, “Adrian, if you want to be effective working on gay rights in Pennsylvania you have to let them have their guns.” And he said, “What I’m telling you is pick your issue and stick with it.” So that was really when I started really thinking I have to pick my issue and stick with it and that issue is going to be LGBTQ issues. And it was a time before I was thinking about cross-movement solidarity and thinking a little bit about intersectionality. But in terms of movements like gun control and gay rights for example, seeing them as separate. 0 2177 Work with GenderPAC (GPAC) MF: You talked about the GenderPAC. You talked about working with PDN, Pennsylvania Diversity Network. Could you talk a little bit about GenderPAC? Was that a transformational moment for you? Did that prepare you to work with PDN? Were there specific things you learned at the GenderPAC?
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 ; AS: A little bit. Yeah. My internship with GenderPAC was actually through the Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism. They had a summer program for college students where you could take two classes and be part of a cohort and also do an internship. And so I did that. And being at GenderPAC I was very excited to go, before I got there I read Riki Wilchins’s two books at the time, Read My Lips and Queer Theory, Gender Theory. And I went in so excited. And then I was given the responsibility of working on this gender-neutral housing campaign. 
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 ; One of my supervisors there was Tyrone Hanley who is now at National Center for Lesbian Rights. And he was somebody who was very engaged in queer and trans activism and probably a little bit more radical than I was at the time as a college student. And the other staff there was also very very engaged and interested. 0 2496 Changing Municipal Policy with Pennsylvania Diversity Network (PDN) / Work in Local Politics AS: [...] When I was at college though, towards the end of my time at Muhlenberg, I started working through PDN, Pennsylvania Diversity Network, on municipal policy change. I had been involved in local politics here as a college student. I led the College Democrats at Muhlenberg as a student. During the Obama campaign I led the College Democrats through that with registrations, 80 percent of students showing up to vote in Allentown. 
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 ; We hosted events with Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, Joe Biden, all during that election. And I was the organizer of all of those. So I was very visible and engaged in the Democratic Party efforts as a college student. I volunteered on Sam Bennett’s congressional campaign in 2008. A very involved volunteer. I became really active with the Lehigh County Democratic Party as a college student as well. So I was engaged politically, and had helped to elect a number of city council people, and had good relationships with a number of people on city council in Allentown. And after getting them elected I really wanted to do something about LGBTQ rights in Allentown. 
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 ; And so I talked with Liz and Trish and Liz encouraged that the thing that was needed was domestic partner benefits. And at the time it didn’t feel like the most compelling issue to me. But she made a good case. And I definitely felt passionate about it. And we ended up working with -- he’s now a judge but then he was a city council person and council president, Dr. Michael D’Amore. And we asked if he would introduce legislation which we were going to provide. 0 2954 Other Work in the Lehigh Valley / Equality Pennsylvania MF: As you’re sharing the story, that whole project starts in college, starts with work with PDN, but then continues into 2011.
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 ; AS: I graduated college in 2009 and I stayed in Allentown. I stayed in Allentown actually because -- two reasons. One, I didn’t get the job that I wanted elsewhere. And two was I thought I could actually make a difference here. So I ended up working professionally in Civic Theatre of Allentown where I was on their fundraising team. I was the only person doing fundraising there. And I ended up leaving that at some point to go work for SEIU Local 32BJ, where I organized in support of food service workers for a company called Sodexo that paid the workers very very poorly. And so I was working on a campaign to unionize these employees and I was their faith organizer, so I worked with Lutheran and Jewish clergy to help them take action in support of food service workers. 
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 ; Around that time I also joined the board of Equality Pennsylvania, which had just been restructured by one of their funders. Basically they had a complete restructuring. The entire board and staff except for one board member and one staff member that stayed. And it was a rebuild. And so I was brought on to the board and was very excited. And the person who recruited me for the board was Brian Sims, who is now a state representative, but then he was a policy attorney for Gay and Lesbian Lawyers of Philadelphia, called GALLOP. And so a whole new board was being built. And there was early conversations at Equality Pennsylvania about where do we go from here. 0 3402 Invitation to the 50th Anniversary of the National March on Washington / Exit from Equality PA AS: [...] In 2013 it was the fiftieth anniversary of the national March on Washington, which was called the National Action to Realize the Dream. And I was actually invited to speak at it as one of six out queer speakers. It was actually very important for me because my grandfather was very close friends with Bayard Rustin, who organized the original 1963 “I Have a Dream” March on Washington. And Bayard was not allowed to speak at the march because he was gay. 
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 ; And there were six LGBTQ people invited to speak at this one at the fiftieth anniversary. I was so thrilled to be one of them and really the only state-based leader. All the others were national leaders. Randi Weingarten, the current president of American Federation of Teachers. Mary Kay Henry, president of SEIU. There was leaders from Human Rights Campaign. And there were other LGBTQ people. But I was the only one from a state equality organization. 0 3486 Getting Married & ; Legally Validating Relationship AS: [...] . Before I go into starting the center, I want to talk about what it was like to get married during that time. So my ex-husband and I, his name is Brandon, we decided to get married right in between Windsor and Obergefell. So this was a time when Pennsylvania Diversity Network used to have annual freedom to marry rallies at usually the Lehigh Courthouse. One time we did it at the Northampton County Courthouse. But annual rallies. And people would go in and they would actually request a marriage license. 
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 ; I think it’s important just to remember what it was like in that moment first. So it was a moment where there was a lot of excitement and energy for marriage equality and still an enormous amount of lack of public support, including from Democratic politicians. Barack Obama when he ran for president originally didn’t support marriage equality. So it was this time period where there was a lot of energy and still lack in public support. After the Windsor decision which granted basically full faith and credit to marriages for the benefit of federal benefits, so if you were a resident of Pennsylvania but lived in Connecticut and you got married in Connecticut you could get federal benefits, even if you didn’t get state benefits in Pennsylvania. So not full faith and credit, but actually just federal recognition. 0 3882 Important Issues Targeted by Equality PA / Candidate Endorsements MF: [...] Were there other issues that were really important for you either at PDN or moving into the Pennsylvania Equality?
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 ; AS: Equality Pennsylvania.
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 ; MF: Equality Pennsylvania organization.
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 ; AS: Yeah. So I designed the candidate questionnaire for Equality Pennsylvania and really led the endorsement process for candidates that were seeking our endorsement. And in that questionnaire we asked about do you believe people who are incarcerated should be housed based on their gender identity or their sex assigned at birth. We asked questions. We were really trying to make sure that we were finding people who really understood our community and the way that we define ourselves. We asked about bullying in schools. We asked about nondiscrimination. We asked about marriage or other forms of relationship recognition. We probably asked about hate crimes legislation. And we asked about stuff that wasn’t legislative as well. We asked about people’s connection to the LGBT community in the area where they lived in Pennsylvania. We asked about their volunteer work with LGBTQ issues. 0 4120 Moving from Volunteer Work / Creating a LGBT Community Center MF: After you move from Equality Pennsylvania so you’re looking for a full-time position in this line of work, how do you make it from Equality Pennsylvania into a full-time position?
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 ; AS: So at the time I had been here for a while in the Lehigh Valley. But my LGBTQ activism was really statewide. And later during that time with Equality Pennsylvania one of the races that I got involved in was the Bethlehem mayor’s race. And Equality Pennsylvania played a pretty significant role in supporting Willie Reynolds when he ran for mayor of Bethlehem the first time. He had been our champion for nondiscrimination. 
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 ; And he was running against Bob Donchez, who was elected mayor, who was really not our champion. He ended up being supportive, I would say like lukewarm supportive, but was certainly not a champion when it came to LGBTQ people. And I worked with Willie on a number of his statements, and one of them was a mail piece he put out where we had a whole bunch of LGBTQ leaders standing behind him. And it said, “As mayor I pledge to not marry anyone until I can marry everyone.” He would only officiate at weddings for any residents once Pennsylvania gave him the legal authority to officiate gay weddings. And that was a really big statement for somebody in the Lehigh Valley. This wasn’t Philadelphia. This wasn’t Pittsburgh. It’s the Lehigh Valley. And before Pennsylvania had marriage. 0 4352 Reflection on Early Activism MF: Well, we’re just about at the end of our time. And we’re going to do a follow-up interview where Adrian will tell the origin story of Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center. But since we’re nearing the end, and we’ve talked about your early years of activism, perhaps we could conclude with a question like looking back on all of that early work what mattered to you the most, is there anything you wish you would have focused on more during that time period. How do you reflect on those early years of activism in your life?
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 ; AS: Yeah. I’m really grateful for my time at Muhlenberg because it really kind of let me learn how to be an activist. It let me test out my activism in different ways and try different things. Learn also what didn’t work. It gave me an opportunity to become a better activist. And in many ways with my time in Equality Pennsylvania as well I was really young when I became the board president. I was 24. And there was a lot that I thought I knew that I didn’t. There certainly are things I would do differently now that I have had experience leading organization on the staff side. But I will say that that moment in time felt so important and so urgent. It felt like such a strong sense of urgency. And I’m really glad that I had the opportunity to be an activist then. 0 4621 Journey in Faith and Activism MF: Can I ask one follow-up question? I know we’re moving to the end. We had started this discussion of activism, especially at the college level, as being very much connected to your faith. Very much linked to your burgeoning, developing, or evolving understanding of yourself and Judaism in your life as being connected to politics and activism. It felt like hand in hand at the college. How did your faith journey move along with your journey into activism?
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 ; AS: So in college I really changed how I identified as Jewish. Again. I changed in high school and I changed again in college. In college I was working at the Reform synagogue in Allentown, Congregation Keneseth Israel. And I was teaching in the religious school. And that experience was really important for me because I met a couple people there. One, her name is Janet Hogan. And she was a religious school director. A straight woman, but a mother of an adult gay son who was married to a rabbi named Victor Appell. And she kind of invited me to her family events, like some family dinners. And I really had a really important -- she was my boss but became a mentor in many ways. 0 4909 Closing Remarks MF: Well, at the end I just want to thank you and give you the opportunity. Is there anything that you think we missed in this first oral history that you want to return to or something you want to say at the end of the interview today?
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 ; AS: No. 0 MovingImage Adrian Shanker recalls his life growing up in Westchester, New York, fighting for non-discrimination laws and the repeal of bans on same-sex marriage, his Jewish faith, and his activist work in the Lehigh Valley and beyond. INTERVIEW WITH ADRIAN SHANKER FEBRUARY 4, 2022 MARY FOLTZ: My name is Mary Foltz and I'm here with Adrian Shanker to talk about his life and experiences in LGBT organizations in the Lehigh Valley, as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. Our project has funding from ACLS this year and we are meeting today at Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center on February 4th, 2022. So first, Adrian, thank you for talking with me today. ADRIAN SHANKER: My pleasure. MF: And I just want to start with a few business topics. Could you please state your full name and spell it for me? AS: Adrian Shanker. He, him pronouns. A-D-R-I-A-N S-H-A-N-K-E-R. MF: Thank you, and will you please share your birth date? AS: April 4th, 1987. MF: And then a few questions about consent. I know you just signed a consent form with me before the interview began. But just to orally have that consent, do you consent to this interview today? AS: I do. MF: Do you consent to having this interview transcribed? AS: I do. MF: Digitized and made publicly available online? AS: Yes. MF: Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats? AS: Yes. MF: Okay. And do you understand you'll have 30 days to review the transcript of the interview? AS: Yes. MF: Fabulous. And you can identify parts that you want to delete or you could even withdraw the full interview if you wanted. AS: Yeah. MF: Okay, all right, business is out of the way. So I just want to start with a question. Would you be willing to tell me a little bit about the early years of your life? AS: I was born in Manhattan and was raised in Westchester, New York in an activist family. My grandfather was the president of the American Federation of Teachers. My other grandfather was a gender theorist, is a gender theorist and psychologist who studies masculinity. And so I grew up in a very interesting home where -- very socially aware as a kid. I remember we had a family meeting about Magic Johnson's AIDS diagnosis. We talked about Keith Haring's Crack Is Wack mural in New York City that we passed all the time. I just remember growing up in a family that was just very socially aware. I remember my dad telling me stories about getting arrested protesting nuclear power or things along those lines. At one point my mom took me to a museum in New York City that had a worm exhibit. I was scared of worms at the time I guess. And I got the pleasure of holding them. I wasn't scared of worms after that. But it was very much about like -- we celebrated Earth Day as a holiday in my family. Grew up going to the Clearwater Music Festival, an environmental justice festival and music festival in Westchester, New York. And so my childhood was very much grounded around social awareness. I wouldn't say activism as much as social awareness in making individual decisions that keep the earth and the community around us in mind. I was definitely taught as a kid about kindness to other people and creating a kind world. And I grew up in a secular Jewish home. Would say culturally Jewish but atheist or nonreligious. And the values that I was taught were very much just about being a community citizen, being somebody -- I remember in 1992 the presidential election. My mom took me to vote with her. And so just some lessons I was taught really early. My parents got divorced when I was seven. Which was in 1994. And my mom came out to me and my brother, who was five years younger. So he was two and I was seven. And my brother and I moved in with my mom and her then partner. And so from a young age I was really aware of social differences in terms of LGBTQ people, although we didn't have that exact acronym yet. My dad was able to get remarried, within a year, legally remarried. And my mom couldn't. And I was very aware of the distinction and the difference. I also grew up with a lot of cultural context around what it meant to be an LGBTQ person because of my mom and some of her friends. Grew up going to Cape Cod in the summers for example. And we'd be camping in Wellfleet and going to Provincetown and so my childhood was definitely in a place where I was aware of -- at the time the word I would have used was gay and lesbian people. And that was just as a kid. MF: So you talk a lot about the kind of values of your family. And then how your mom's relationship and your dad's experience post-divorce introduced you to discrimination and structural homophobia frankly. How did you and your mom or you and your dad talk about LGBTQ people in a more personal way? Or was it really more about context? AS: It was more about context. I remember for example -- I don't remember how old I was. But I was young. I went to the Katonah Museum of Art with my dad. I come from a family that has always really appreciated and loved art. And the exhibit was by Pavel Tchelitchew and there was this painting that was like of the rear end of some animal. And I remember my dad saying something about like how Tchelitchew was a gay artist. A gay Russian artist. And he used some symbolism to let people know of his identity but he couldn't be as public and out when he was painting. So just contextual comments like that. Or comments like when we discussed Magic Johnson for example. And that was fairly early in my life. And relatively early in the AIDS epidemic. So it was more contextual conversations, more than personal ones. MF: How did you discuss Magic Johnson? What was that conversation like in your family? AS: I don't remember the details of it as much as I remember that it happened. But I remember that the conversation included a sense of like respect for people with AIDS at a time when that was not always discussed. And I'm pretty sure that this was before 1994. Because I think it was before my parents' divorce. But I don't remember 100 percent. And so as someone who was younger than seven years old, just the conversation about what it meant to respect people with whatever was happening in their life at a time when a lot was unknown. Certainly looking back a lot was unknown right at that time. But it wasn't like a family where we can't talk about things that are maybe hard in the world. My family has always been a family that talked about what was happening in the world. MF: So you have a supportive family life. Imparting a variety of different values. Kindness, respecting people, navigating the early years of an epidemic with kindness for others and a sense of urgency that we're talking about in family spaces. What's happening to you in your educational experience? AS: I'll also just add for the earth as well. And other sentient beings. Today I've been -- I call myself an herbivore, but a vegetarian, for a long time. And I remember when I was a kid -- my mom tells me I was born to be a vegetarian, and that I remember going to a Chinese restaurant and they had a fish tank and there was also fish on the menu and I looked through the menu and I pointed to the tank and I said, "Fish." Like people would eat those beautiful creatures, I can't believe that. And so as a kid I ate like very little meat. Only the kind of stuff that you don't always have control over your diet as a young kid. But in high school I became vegetarian. It's also the same time I became an activist. And environmental justice has always been pretty important to me but at some point I made a decision to prioritize LGBTQ activism for my own career. But I definitely grew up in a community and a family where we talked about these as kind of in some ways intersecting issues, although we didn't use that language. MF: You're moving in a way that -- this is where my question was going. What was your educational life like? AS: Oh, sorry. MF: No, no need to apologize. And I think that's an interesting segue because you're thinking about activism maybe in high school. So could you reflect a little bit upon your educational experiences? AS: I was an okay student in high school. I struggled a lot as a student actually in high school and earlier. I got bullied a lot in middle school including for having gay moms and so for me as someone who struggled a lot in those ways I also -- when I became an activist in high school, it was very much about claiming my own identity but also claiming my place in the school as an activist. And I found ways to be involved. So I really had a lot of negative feelings about going to gym class for example. Which felt very traumatic. And so sometime in high school I found a way I could volunteer on a high school committee that happened to meet at the same time as gym. And I never had to go. But it let me also become an activist. And I had a lot of support. So in high school I co-started a gay-straight alliance. And I graduated from Fox Lane High School in Bedford, New York in 2004. I think 2004. And I started with some other people a gay-straight alliance that was the first time that high school had one. And I remember actually when I was in middle school we had a meeting with a guidance counselor in high school to transition each family. And I remember my mom asking the guidance counselor, "Is there a gay-straight alliance here?" And I remember being like, "Mom." And the answer was no, there isn't one. And I had heard about this other student who was gay and kind of picked on and ended up going to an alternative school. And I was a little concerned about "am I going to a place that's not welcoming". But in high school coming out and becoming an activist were very intertwined. And it was also 2003 so it was the time when -- so I might have graduated in 2005. We'll verify. But 2003 was the start of the Iraq War or the invasion of Iraq. And March 19th, 2003 I led a student walkout of class to a sit-in in the front of the school, 150 students. And a couple teachers joined us. I don't think the school was thrilled about that. And nobody got disciplined. But for me becoming an activist was very much am I an activist for animal rights, am I an activist for ending the death penalty, am I an activist for stopping -- we knew we were going to stop that war, Bush's war. And then I was very passionate about LGBTQ rights. At the time President Bush used an hour of his State of the Union in 2004 to condemn families like mine and prioritizing a Federal Marriage Amendment, a full hour. And it was right after the Massachusetts decision on marriage, Goodridge decision, where John Kerry and every other major national Democrat except for Barney Frank condemned the decision. And so I was coming into my activism at the same exact time. And feeling very angry. Feeling very -- it's like teen angst mixed with like animosity towards Bush. And really found my activist voice. But like most people that age I really didn't know what to do with that. Me and a couple other students, we were invited to a staff meeting for the teachers where we got to talk about some issues for gay students. We had our meetings. We did ask the school to change one of their policies. I don't remember if they did. Their nondiscrimination policy to include sexual orientation. And I actually started going to -- my mom had always gone to this conference in White Plains, New York. It used to be called the Healing the Hurt conference. But it was run by GLSEN the Gay, Lesbian & ; Straight Education Network's Hudson Valley chapter. My mom is a teacher. So she always went as professional development because teachers could get continuing ed credits. But they also allowed students to come as well, and when I was in high school I actually went with my mom one year. And I brought some teachers from my high school, I convinced them to go. And that was really transformative for me because I ended up meeting the leader of GLSEN Hudson Valley, her name is Mary Jane Karger. Actually she's from the Lehigh Valley originally, which is cool, she's from Hellertown. And went to Muhlenberg College as well. One of the first generations of women there I believe. And so she became a really important activist for me. She was a straight woman, a parent of a gay kid, and she was really the first major LGBTQ activist I knew. And I was very inspired by her and by the other activists that I met at this conference. And remember going back to my school feeling like we can do this, we can become activists here. I also remember being surprised that I didn't really lose any friends in high school when I came out. And I thought that I would because it was a time before mass acceptance for a lot of LGBTQ people, we're still like early 2000s, so in terms of representation in mass media it still wasn't there. I think Will & ; Grace was on. But that was probably it. MF: Do you remember what it felt like before you came out? Were you anxious about it or -- AS: Not really, because it was really a self-realization more than a coming out. It was really a this is who I am and now I'm just going to tell people. It wasn't an internal struggle. I had a very supportive family. And I was kind of in the group of students that would be self-defined as like punk rockers. So at the time many of them identified as bisexual which was fairly common among like punk rock-identified high school students in the early 2000s. Some of them still identify as queer or bi. But some don't. But my friend group was kind of alternative. Which was perhaps helpful for also my own self-realization. And I will say that like while I'm too young to have been there during punk, right? Punk rock was my first understanding of queerness and I was really into some of the music and photographs. And I actually don't enjoy that music at all now. But then I did because it was kind of public queerness. And it felt very affirming as a high school student. Pictures of Billy Idol. Or listening to words of Iggy Pop. Or like folks like that. Lou Reed, who were just so queer and so public about it. Felt very affirming. MF: With the GSA you described working on a nondiscrimination ordinance or promoting that at school, did you have any other specific things that the GSA was doing? Was it more social? Was it -- AS: It was a mix. It was a mix of social and also a little bit political. And it was about political but with a small p. It was like political for the school, it was like trying to make our school inclusive. So it was thinking about well, how come health class doesn't include us, or how come gym classes feel very unsafe, or things along those lines. So we would try to bring guest speakers into the school. Or we would do things to try to make those kinds of changes. It wasn't thinking broader. I do remember though I was invited as an out student to speak. My first public speaking thing was actually with Planned Parenthood in Westchester County where they invited me to speak as a student voice about comprehensive sex education. They were doing a panel at the public library. And so that was very empowering for me because I was asked to share my own experience about why the lack of comprehensive sex education was so challenging and so problematic. High school by the way is also where I claimed my Jewish identity. So I grew up culturally Jewish. I would say like Jewish heritage but religiously atheist, a secular family. But after my parents got divorced when I was in second grade, shortly after that I asked my mom if I could go to Hebrew school. And my mom was a very supportive mom, but I don't think it's what she was going for. But she did find one. We joined a Reform synagogue in Bedford, New York called Shaaray Tefila. And my mom was actually back in school studying to become a teacher, so she ended up teaching in the religious school there while she was in her graduate program. And I really loved going to Hebrew school. And I'm not sure why. But I really did. I loved learning about something I actually wanted to learn about. And in high school I got very involved in youth group kind of programs that really helped me solidify my identity as both Jewish and as a queer Jew. Although I wouldn't have used the word queer in high school. I went to Jewish summer camp and met other LGBTQ Jewish students and got very engaged in activism from a Jewish lens. Progressive activism. And actually I remember in high school I went on a weekend trip or a small trip with my synagogue's youth group to Washington, DC where we were meeting with members of Congress on a variety of issues. And it was through the Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism. And the issue that I was able to talk about was the hate crimes bill that hadn't been passed yet. And actually it was in a meeting with Congresswoman Nita Lowey, she's now retired. But I came out during that, while I was speaking to the congresswoman, it was the first time that my rabbi learned that I was gay. The rabbi I grew up with. And I just had never told him because he didn't have -- he had never said anything from what Jews would call the bimah but Christians would call a pulpit that made me feel like he was super embracing. We were the only gay family I knew in my synagogue. It was a very large synagogue. He had never talked about gay rights or marriage equality or anything along those lines. I couldn't remember a single instance of that happening. And so I didn't really know. And he was somebody who was seen as very powerful, very tone-setting, for what people would think or believe in. And I used that opportunity to speak directly to my congresswoman about an issue that was important to me as a gay high school kid and I didn't care that my rabbi was there hearing it. And afterwards he said something to me. He said, like, "I didn't know you were gay." And I said, "Well, you didn't ask." But it just came out naturally. It wasn't an internal struggle as much as it was self-realization and becoming an activist. MF: What happened after that with your rabbi? Did he start speaking about inclusivity? Did that change your relationship? AS: It changed our relationship a little bit. But mostly -- in a positive way. I also worked at the synagogue as a Hebrew tutor when I was in high school. And I was very very involved there. It's also around the time I started wearing a yarmulke all the time in the middle of high school as well. It was after Daniel Pearl was murdered. There was a book of essays that was published called I Am Jewish. People were writing about the importance of being visible as who you are. And so for me it was connected also to being visible as a gay person. As a high school person I had like rainbow belts and there was like pins and stickers and buttons everywhere. And also before that I had liberty spikes and then a very poorly kept Mohawk that turned into a mullethawk and then that was kind of replaced with a yarmulke at some point. And it was about being visible. And it's probably when I started to identify more spiritually or religiously as Jewish as well. MF: So let's move a little bit further. What happens after high school to you? Where are you going next? How does the activity journey, your spiritual journey continue into the next years of your life? AS: Yeah. So after high school I went to Muhlenberg College in Allentown, which is how I ended up in the Lehigh Valley as well. And I came into Muhlenberg basically expecting to eventually become a rabbi. And I was very excited about that actually. And there was a lot of reasons why I chose Muhlenberg for that reason. But I came in ready to go as an activist. And I had all the angst and all the passion and really no know-how for how to operationalize queer activism. And I remember early in college, probably my first month, there was a series that Muhlenberg has called Center for Ethics where they have a theme for the year and they bring guest speakers throughout the year, and they're often tied to extra credit in classes if you attend and then do a write-up or things colleges do. And Kate Bornstein was one of the first speakers. And I didn't know who she was, but I went, and it was recommended by one of my classes. And I also had the attitude that I really wanted to learn everything queer, so I was going to go. And she did kind of part talk and part performance. And I felt very inspired. And I still remember some of the things that she said in that talk my first year of college. And I went to hear other people speak as well. And some of them also queer in different ways. And I joined the college's gay-straight alliance, which I didn't create, It existed before me, right away. And I remember the first meeting they were like making stickers and doing like erotic writing group and things like that. But it didn't feel activist-y to me and I kind of spoke up and I said, like, "Can we do some activism?" And people were like, "Yeah, sure, go do it." So I ended up doing that, and a lot of other folks' interest was about like let's get a group together to go dance at the Stonewall on Thursday nights. Stonewall in Allentown. Or things that were more social. And my interest was more political. Six weeks into starting as a student I was in the president of the college's office demanding that the nondiscrimination policy be updated to include gender identity and I e-mailed him and I was like, "I noticed in the code of conduct that it does not currently include this and I would like this to be changed." And I got this e-mail back saying, like, "Why don't we sit down and talk about it?" And we did. And about six weeks later I got an e-mail from his assistant or from him saying that it was going to be changed and that the board had approved it. And I think they thought like okay, he's good now. And I turned around and within like a couple weeks or maybe a couple months with the gay-straight alliance we were petitioning the college to create gender-neutral housing. It would have been the first college in the Lehigh Valley to do so. And that summer I took an internship at the Gender Public Advocacy Coalition, GenderPAC, founded and led by Riki Wilchins, no longer in existence. And my work there was focused on gender-neutral housing actually as a national -- this was before it was very common. This was in summer of 2006. And so therefore I started college in fall 2005 and graduated high school in fall 2004 by the way -- spring 2005. So yeah. Interning at GenderPAC. Coming back to Muhlenberg. And really fighting for gender-neutral housing. And it became a fight that outlasted my time at Muhlenberg. We won small victories. This dorm building can be gender-neutral. Or as long as it's not for first year students. Or case-by-case basis. So yeah, the fight for gender-neutral housing in Muhlenberg College was a really critical part of my activist journey. It's kind of how I learned how to be an activist in a more effective way. I learned how to pick my battles better. I learned how to pick targets better when it comes to activism, who can actually make the changes we want. It also taught me how to build strong coalitions and bring in the right voices. There was other parts of that activism on campus as a student whether it was about policy changes like housing policy or about other types of things to ensure that LGBTQ students had the kind of college that we all really deserved. And again it was a time that's a little different than now where that's common. At the time I actually remember the president of the college who was someone who I now consider a friend, but at the time one of the first things he said was, "Well, do we have any transgender students?" And my response to him was, "Where do you think people would want to sleep? You haven't created a space that people would feel comfortable being out as trans." And I don't actually remember any out trans students then at the time in 2006. There were obviously trans students. Today there's many. It's a college with a trans student activist club. But that I think happens in part with a college that came to embrace the policies that needed to happen to make people feel included. Another thing happened when I was in college, which is that I got connected with -- so the Hillel director at Muhlenberg, she's no longer alive, but her name was Patti Mittleman. And she was a very important influence in my life. And one of the things that she did was she actually told me -- well, before that I had asked the community service office on campus if they could help me find an LGBT organization I could volunteer at. I had grown up going to the LGBT center in White Plains, New York for the youth program, and before that for a program they had for parents with gay kids. And when I moved here to go to college in Allentown I was looking around, there was no LGBT center. And I asked, "So is there an organization I can volunteer with?" And they took two weeks and came back and said, "We can't find one." And I remember complaining about this to Patti Mittleman, the Hillel director. And she basically said, "You have to meet these two people, Liz Bradbury and Patricia Sullivan." And she connected me to them. We actually had one of the first events that I organized as a college student was for Liz to actually come speak on campus. And we did an exhibit of a photography series that she had created at the time about marriage equality, believe it was called Faces of Inequality. And as a student I actually in 2007 joined the board of directors for an organization that Liz and Trish had founded called Pennsylvania Diversity Network. And before that in 2006 my first time lobbying in Pennsylvania was against the Pennsylvania Marriage Amendment in March 2006. And I got on a bus with some people who had become close friends and fellow activists. Reverend Goudy from Metropolitan Community Church [inaudible] Donna Cruciani from PPL Corporation, the head of their LGBT resource group before she retired, Steve Black, who had led PA-GALA, he's unfortunately no longer alive. There was a few other people on that trip as well. And we met with legislators and as a college student it felt very empowering. It was also NRA lobby day in Harrisburg that day and I remember coming back and talking to one of my professors, Gary Jones, who taught a class I was taking called "Radicalism in American History." And I was so upset that there was all these NRA people in the capitol. He said to me, he said, "Adrian, if you want to be effective working on gay rights in Pennsylvania you have to let them have their guns." And he said, "What I'm telling you is pick your issue and stick with it." So that was really when I started really thinking I have to pick my issue and stick with it and that issue is going to be LGBTQ issues. And it was a time before I was thinking about cross-movement solidarity and thinking a little bit about intersectionality. But in terms of movements like gun control and gay rights for example, seeing them as separate. MF: You used this interesting phrase earlier, which is related to what you just shared. You said something like, "I learned how to pick my targets and think about effective ways or effective strategies." I'm just curious if you could maybe expand on that. During your college activism years what did that mean for you? Learning effective targets, effective strategies. What did that look like during that time period? What were some of the most important lessons that you were taking from that time period? AS: Looking back I can remember getting responses from people around our gender-neutral housing campaign that might not have been positive, and reacting to them, without really thinking through how important is it to win over that specific person. They're not the decision maker. So learning how to figure out who actually needs the time and energy devoted to winning them over, who has to be won over to be part of a strong coalition, who has to be brought in as a clear advocate. So for example the college didn't have any kind of LGBTQ resource center, director, or anything like that. And we had petitioned the college to appoint someone as an LGBT liaison. And they did and her name was Anita Kelly. And we ended up going to Anita and saying, "You have the administrators' ears. We need you as a staff person to really be our advocate here." And we went to the housing folks, Jan Schumacher and Aaron Bova, and asked them, "You're the people they're going to ask about how this will be operationalized. How can we help you understand this? Here's the other colleges that have it. Can you call your counterparts there and see how it works for them?" So learning how to win over the right people instead of what in the political world we would call a blank canvas. Trying to go and just get anyone we can, but those may not be the most influential people or most necessary people to win on the issue we need to win on. MF: You talked about the GenderPAC. You talked about working with PDN, Pennsylvania Diversity Network. Could you talk a little bit about GenderPAC? Was that a transformational moment for you? Did that prepare you to work with PDN? Were there specific things you learned at the GenderPAC? AS: A little bit. Yeah. My internship with GenderPAC was actually through the Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism. They had a summer program for college students where you could take two classes and be part of a cohort and also do an internship. And so I did that. And being at GenderPAC I was very excited to go, before I got there I read Riki Wilchins's two books at the time, Read My Lips and Queer Theory, Gender Theory. And I went in so excited. And then I was given the responsibility of working on this gender-neutral housing campaign. One of my supervisors there was Tyrone Hanley who is now at National Center for Lesbian Rights. And he was somebody who was very engaged in queer and trans activism and probably a little bit more radical than I was at the time as a college student. And the other staff there was also very very engaged and interested. One thing I learned from being at GenderPAC though was that there was kind of a dismissiveness of the so-called like mainstream LGBTQ activism. And I wasn't really sure that I agreed with that. But I also wasn't sure I disagreed. And I felt like I didn't know enough. When I was at GenderPAC though they let me go to -- one of the requirements of the program at the Religious Action Center was to go do a day on the Hill, a legislative day. And so GenderPAC let me go and meet with Pennsylvania legislators. And Rick Santorum was one of them. And so I got a meeting with Rick Santorum's staff person, and what GenderPAC sent me in to do with each of the meetings was to ask if they would sign a pledge saying that they wouldn't discriminate against LGBT people in their offices. So just their office staff. And Santorum signed it. And he signed it right in front of me. And then I got a picture with him. And so I came back to the office next morning and they were like floored. And this was the guy who -- I don't need to explain who Rick Santorum was. MF: But you can still explain for other people. AS: There's enough people can google. But he was a very conservative, very very conservative senator, later became a presidential candidate. He was awful, he really hated LGBTQ people. And he signed this thing. His chief of staff was gay by the way. A gay Black man actually. But Rick Santorum was very homophobic. And he signed this pledge. And so the next day GenderPAC puts out this press release. And a couple days later I get a call from a reporter at Agape Press, a genuinely Christian press, and the reporter says, "Are you the homosexual from Pennsylvania who got Rick Santorum to cave on the family?" And I was like, "Who are you?" But it made national news, Rick Santorum signing this pledge. He then rescinded his signature. And actually tried to say he didn't sign it. But we produced the photograph of him with me and it kind of was hard for him to say he didn't sign it. He then said he didn't understand it. So it was a formative time in terms of becoming an activist. I also think that I still didn't really know what I didn't know. But being in DC, I spent that summer and the next summer in DC. The next summer I was at Faith in Public Life, which was a program at the time of Center for American Progress, a Clinton alumni think tank. So a slightly left of center think tank. And as this was 2007 I was working with faith leaders to help them take action on progressive social justice issues. And basically to get them to stop talking about abortion and gay marriage and talk about instead hunger and homelessness and ending torture. And one of the issues at the time was the farm bill, which includes SNAP funding, nutrition funding. And so Jim Wallis, Pastor Wallis, famously said that here at a protest at the Capitol when I was doing that work, said, "The budget is a moral document." And that's something I've always thought about for my activism going forward. The budget is a moral document. And so that summer was equally formative because I started to really think about the intersection between faith and queer rights. Even though my work there did not include LGBTQ issues, it was about how do we utilize people of faith to help tell a story that's compelling for the broader public. And that's something that I really have continued to use in my activism. When I was at college though, towards the end of my time at Muhlenberg, I started working through PDN, Pennsylvania Diversity Network, on municipal policy change. I had been involved in local politics here as a college student. I led the College Democrats at Muhlenberg as a student. During the Obama campaign I led the College Democrats through that with registrations, 80 percent of students showing up to vote in Allentown. We hosted events with Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, Joe Biden, all during that election. And I was the organizer of all of those. So I was very visible and engaged in the Democratic Party efforts as a college student. I volunteered on Sam Bennett's congressional campaign in 2008. A very involved volunteer. I became really active with the Lehigh County Democratic Party as a college student as well. So I was engaged politically, and had helped to elect a number of city council people, and had good relationships with a number of people on city council in Allentown. And after getting them elected I really wanted to do something about LGBTQ rights in Allentown. And so I talked with Liz and Trish and Liz encouraged that the thing that was needed was domestic partner benefits. And at the time it didn't feel like the most compelling issue to me. But she made a good case. And I definitely felt passionate about it. And we ended up working with -- he's now a judge but then he was a city council person and council president, Dr. Michael D'Amore. And we asked if he would introduce legislation which we were going to provide. Liz was able to work with Suzanne Goldberg at the Columbia University gender and sexuality program, who was able to get us a draft of legislation. And then I brought in some local Democratic Party-affiliated lawyers, especially Tim Brennan, who really understood the municipal law process in Allentown. And we were able to get this passed through with unanimous support in Allentown. And I think it passed after I graduated. It passed I think in January, either 2010 or 2011. And from then I was really set on working on municipal policy for a while. I started to actually work on the same issue with the city of Easton. So we were able to get domestic partner benefits for city workers in Allentown and Easton. What's important to remember as a lookback is that before marriage equality if you worked for an employer that provided spousal health care, if you were a gay couple you could not put your spouse on health care unless they had domestic partner benefits policies. Even if you could get that you had to pay federal tax on the value of the benefits. But the ability to actually access health care was such a big challenge. It was before the Affordable Care Act as well. So the Affordable Care Act passed in 2010. But it wasn't fully implemented for a little bit after that. So it was a very propulsive movement. We were in the movement for marriage equality and it felt also that winning partner benefits was kind of a vote in support of marriage equality. And that actually came up during these council meetings saying, like, "We wish we didn't have to do this, Pennsylvania should have marriage equality." So after winning in Allentown we started, or around that same time we also introduced identical legislation in Easton. And with each of these we did something that wasn't common in the Lehigh Valley, where we did public signing ceremonies. We had public events for the mayors to sign these laws, and to generate a lot of press on this issue. Press was really important because we were trying to win hearts and minds on marriage. So I worked on the Allentown ordinance very closely with Liz. I kind of led the effort on the Easton ordinance. And also on passing nondiscrimination in Bethlehem, which passed in 2011. Bethlehem at the time was the largest city in Pennsylvania that did not have a nondiscrimination law. And it was an entirely Democratic city council with a Democratic mayor. And the mayor, John Callahan, supported the legislation but wasn't moving on it. He said he supported it and he had this big press conference and then nothing was happening with it. And so of the entire city council only two were supportive. Karen Dolan and Willie Reynolds. And the two of them became our only two very strong champions. The rest of council was lukewarm at best or at the beginning even a little bit negative. And we were able to bring them all around but it was a very challenging time that actually included really really really having to work against -- the Catholic diocese sent a lobbyist to try to change the legislation. They knew we would pass the legislation, so they put all these poison pill amendments in, a sunset clause that would end the ordinance automatically after three years. An amendment that would gut all the powers of the human relations commission. So the ordinance would exist but nobody could be held accountable by it. Amendment after amendment after amendment. The city solicitor in Bethlehem also made major procedural errors and we had to redo an entire city council meeting. Each meeting was over four hours long. Hundreds of people testified. And it was mixed between pro and con. The people who testified against us were using some horrible anti-LGBTQ rhetoric and language. Suggesting that all gay people are child molesters or things like that. It was really really beyond the pale, especially for 2011. And to be honest we did not expect it to pass unanimously. The council president at the time, Bob Donchez, who then became mayor, ended up voting for it. But he was the last person in Bethlehem to decide how he felt about this issue and many other issues. And Dave DiGiacinto, who was on council, he's no longer alive, he was not sure if he was supportive. And then we had two council members who were, one of them had Parkinson's, Gordon Mowrer, the former mayor, and the other one had other health issues that really made it difficult to determine how aware she was of the issues that she was voting on, Jean Belinski. There was really no way we could communicate with her directly and it was a really big challenge actually. So what we ended up with was a unanimous nondiscrimination law that really set the table for starting to pass these again. At the time Pennsylvania had I believe 17 municipalities that had nondiscrimination laws. Today in 2022 it's more than 60, might even be 70. But at the time we were talking about less than 20. And that kind of helped to transition into some future activism as well. MF: As you're sharing the story, that whole project starts in college, starts with work with PDN, but then continues into 2011. AS: I graduated college in 2009 and I stayed in Allentown. I stayed in Allentown actually because -- two reasons. One, I didn't get the job that I wanted elsewhere. And two was I thought I could actually make a difference here. So I ended up working professionally in Civic Theatre of Allentown where I was on their fundraising team. I was the only person doing fundraising there. And I ended up leaving that at some point to go work for SEIU Local 32BJ, where I organized in support of food service workers for a company called Sodexo that paid the workers very very poorly. And so I was working on a campaign to unionize these employees and I was their faith organizer, so I worked with Lutheran and Jewish clergy to help them take action in support of food service workers. Around that time I also joined the board of Equality Pennsylvania, which had just been restructured by one of their funders. Basically they had a complete restructuring. The entire board and staff except for one board member and one staff member that stayed. And it was a rebuild. And so I was brought on to the board and was very excited. And the person who recruited me for the board was Brian Sims, who is now a state representative, but then he was a policy attorney for Gay and Lesbian Lawyers of Philadelphia, called GALLOP. And so a whole new board was being built. And there was early conversations at Equality Pennsylvania about where do we go from here. There was a lot against us. It was a conservative legislature, Republican governor, Governor Corbett. And a real propulsive need to ensure that we could demonstrate impact to funders. So I said, "Let's win municipal policies. We're not going to win at the state level." And so we did. So that was the push for Bethlehem, it was actually through my role with Equality PA. And then Equality Pennsylvania ended up getting some grants to work on municipal policy change around the state, passing nondiscrimination protections around Pennsylvania, and building public support for nondiscrimination through that process. About a year into my time on the board at Equality Pennsylvania I was on my way to a board meeting in Erie, and I got a call from Brian, who said, "I'm going to be stepping down from the board because I'm running for the state house against Babette Josephs," who was one of our champions on the issues, champions in the state house. And he was going to run against her because she was becoming less and less effective at winning the change. She was very vocal and very effective at getting media and public support, but not always as good at actually working with the other side to get results that we needed. So Brian said he was going to run against her. And I let him know that I would be running for the president of Equality Pennsylvania's board. I was unanimously elected and I was 24 years old. And the organization, we were also creating a PAC. And a 501(c)(4) entity. So (c)(3) entity is charitable, tax-deductible. Equality Pennsylvania Educational Fund, that's technically what I was president of. And then the (c)(4) is a political organization, can endorse in elections, etc. And then the PAC can actually give money to candidates. So three separate legal entities. And I was the president of the educational fund side but also on the board of the others. And so we were kind of building our political arm up. We were starting to make a real impact and build power for LGBTQ Pennsylvanians. We talked with candidates. I remember Det Ansinn was running for Bucks County commissioner. And at one point he said, "What are you looking for in candidates?" And we said that we wanted candidates who would talk to -- we wanted front porch Democrats, not back porch Democrats. We wanted Democrats that would talk to us, talk about our issues, when they're sitting on their front porch, not only in a private party in the back of their house where their neighbors can't see them. We wanted them to talk about LGBTQ issues everywhere they talked, not just when they were talking to us. We wanted them to be public about their stances, not private about it. It wasn't going to be like a little pinkie swear, I promise I won't vote against your rights. It was going to be on your website as part of your platform. And we started working with a lot of candidates across the state. One of them, for example, Erin Molchany, was running for the state house in Pittsburgh, and we were her first endorsement, or one of her first endorsements. And she became one of our strong champions. Eugene DePasquale was running for auditor-general in 2012 and we were very heavily involved in his race. I ended up on his transition team, where I drafted rewrites to the personnel manual around LGBTQ inclusion for auditor-general staff. And that was the role that Equality Pennsylvania was playing, was victories where we could find them. Some of them were behind the scenes. Not an issue I worked on, but the former executive director of Equality Pennsylvania, Ted Martin, worked with Governor Corbett's team to actually get a change in the driver's license policy to change a person's gender on the driver's license in a more simplified way. And part of the agreement was that there wouldn't be a press release, it would just happen. So it was changes where we could make the changes happen. Sometimes behind the scenes, sometimes very public. That was really the goal. My time at Equality Pennsylvania overlapped with the fight for marriage in Pennsylvania. Because I was on the board from 2010 to 2013. I served as president 2011 to 2013. And it was a very propulsive time for LGBTQ rights. Literally every day we were seeing different things happen in the national news around LGBTQ rights. On marriage and on other issues. Around "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." Whole bunch of issues were changing. We were watching history as we were making it. It felt so energizing. But I was doing that work as a volunteer. And I was driving across the state as a volunteer. Not receiving reimbursements for mileage or covering my costs of this travel. And I was also just a couple years out of college, I didn't have a lot of money. But this was what was so important to me. And it definitely felt like a second full-time job. And I wanted to do this work full-time at some point. A couple other things happened during my time with Equality Pennsylvania that were pretty formative. In 2013 it was the fiftieth anniversary of the national March on Washington, which was called the National Action to Realize the Dream. And I was actually invited to speak at it as one of six out queer speakers. It was actually very important for me because my grandfather was very close friends with Bayard Rustin, who organized the original 1963 "I Have a Dream" March on Washington. And Bayard was not allowed to speak at the march because he was gay. And there were six LGBTQ people invited to speak at this one at the fiftieth anniversary. I was so thrilled to be one of them and really the only state-based leader. All the others were national leaders. Randi Weingarten, the current president of American Federation of Teachers. Mary Kay Henry, president of SEIU. There was leaders from Human Rights Campaign. And there were other LGBTQ people. But I was the only one from a state equality organization. And that was just a very powerful opportunity in my activist career. Yeah. The decision to leave Equality Pennsylvania was in large part because I really wanted to do this work full-time. And yeah, I really wanted to do this work full-time. Before I go into starting the center, I want to talk about what it was like to get married during that time. So my ex-husband and I, his name is Brandon, we decided to get married right in between Windsor and Obergefell. So this was a time when Pennsylvania Diversity Network used to have annual freedom to marry rallies at usually the Lehigh Courthouse. One time we did it at the Northampton County Courthouse. But annual rallies. And people would go in and they would actually request a marriage license. I think it's important just to remember what it was like in that moment first. So it was a moment where there was a lot of excitement and energy for marriage equality and still an enormous amount of lack of public support, including from Democratic politicians. Barack Obama when he ran for president originally didn't support marriage equality. So it was this time period where there was a lot of energy and still lack in public support. After the Windsor decision which granted basically full faith and credit to marriages for the benefit of federal benefits, so if you were a resident of Pennsylvania but lived in Connecticut and you got married in Connecticut you could get federal benefits, even if you didn't get state benefits in Pennsylvania. So not full faith and credit, but actually just federal recognition. And it was also a time when the federal government was interpreting every single marriage benefit that they could as either state of celebration or state of residence. So for every guideline you could imagine, Social Security Administration says they'll recognize marriages based on state of celebration, where you got married. Federal Election Commission says state of celebration for if you can count as a spouse for higher ability to donate to campaigns. Every single agency, every single rule was making an interpretation after Windsor. And it was a time when there was just a lot of energy. My ex-husband Brandon and I decided to get married during that time. Then we had two weddings. The first one was a legal wedding where we started at the Lehigh County Courthouse and we were joined by our parents. Actually our parents didn't. I think Brandon's parents were here. My parents lived in New York, but I think they met us up there. But we were also joined by a reporter from Morning Call, Colby Itkowitz, who's now at Washington Post. And Jen Colletta, who was then the editor of Philadelphia Gay News. So they started with us, recorded us not being able to get a marriage license. It was not a shocker. We knew what the law was. But we paid the fee. We got a marriage rejection certificate which I still have, stamped. It says rejected or denied and it says the reason why we were denied, because two people of same gender. We got in the car, drove to Darien, Connecticut. Went into the town hall. Darien was the closest place to Lehigh Valley where you could get married in one day without a waiting period. And many people from Lehigh Valley got married in Darien for that reason. Got our marriage license there. My mom and her partner and I believe my dad joined us there as well. And then we went to a beach, Pear Tree Point Beach, right in Darien. Got married on the beach, very quick ceremony, officiated by Reverend Debra Haffner, one of the most vocal faith leaders nationally for sexual freedom and LGBTQ rights. And then as we were driving back, as the reporter Colby Itkowitz described it, when we crossed from New York to New Jersey, our relationship was given -- it was demoted to civil union. And when we crossed the free bridge into Easton we were sitting in a car together as complete strangers. And so that was the experience of getting married then. We then had a Jewish wedding ceremony as well, but the experience of getting legally married at that time was also really formative to my activism because it was such a hurdle. I remember that we got estate plans drawn up that we had to have 14 documents between the two of us, 14 documents. Because of being able to protect each other. HIPAA release forms. Things that are automatic for people who are legally married, but that we knew since our marriage wasn't going to be recognized in Pennsylvania, we had to have all these additional documents drawn up by lawyers. And that's just something that's important to remember now. Sometimes it's easy to criticize movements in the past for not going far enough. And frankly there were valid criticisms of the marriage movement. But one thing that we shouldn't forget was that for people who wanted to get married there was real serious reasons why they needed to. And it wasn't only about stigma, and it wasn't only about feeling equal in the eyes of the law. It was also about being able to take care of your partner with legal rights. And so I had criticism of the marriage equality movement. And also I was part of it. Because both were possible at the same time. We could simultaneously believe that health care shouldn't be tied to whether you're married or not or immigration shouldn't be tied to whether you're married or not, and we could also believe that people should be able to have the legal relationships that allow them to take care of their families. And so that was a very galvanizing moment in time. MF: In your description of that, both in terms of your college activism and then into your postcollegiate activism, you talked about housing issues on college campus. Then you talked about nondiscrimination legislation at the civic level. And then the fight for marriage equality. Were there other issues that were really important for you either at PDN or moving into the Pennsylvania Equality? AS: Equality Pennsylvania. MF: Equality Pennsylvania organization. AS: Yeah. So I designed the candidate questionnaire for Equality Pennsylvania and really led the endorsement process for candidates that were seeking our endorsement. And in that questionnaire we asked about do you believe people who are incarcerated should be housed based on their gender identity or their sex assigned at birth. We asked questions. We were really trying to make sure that we were finding people who really understood our community and the way that we define ourselves. We asked about bullying in schools. We asked about nondiscrimination. We asked about marriage or other forms of relationship recognition. We probably asked about hate crimes legislation. And we asked about stuff that wasn't legislative as well. We asked about people's connection to the LGBT community in the area where they lived in Pennsylvania. We asked about their volunteer work with LGBTQ issues. I remember one person who's now on the state supreme court, David Wecht, judges have to be careful about how they answer questionnaires. But we asked him to describe his judicial philosophy when it comes to historically excluded populations. And we asked about his past connection to LGBTQ communities in Pittsburgh where he lived. And he told us that he volunteered at an AIDS organization I believe in the '90s. Well, that was very telling for us because it was a time when not every lawyer wanted to volunteer with an AIDS organization. So we were looking for hints from people's past involvement, how they might be once they were elected. I remember there were some really interesting races that we were involved in. One of them was the attorney general's race between Kathleen Kane and Patrick Murphy. And Patrick Murphy when he was in Congress led the effort in the House to pass "Don't Ask, Don't Tell's" repeal. And we ended up endorsing him. And I remember one of Kathleen Kane's staff members calling me and saying, "I can't believe you're endorsing Patrick Murphy." And we said, "He kind of repealed 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell.'" And they were like, "Oh yeah, that thing." We were like, "That thing? That was like a very significant thing." What it also is, is it's proof of his commitment for somebody who's never held public office before where we don't have any proof. There's no proof we could get. And so sometimes we were endorsing against people that both said they were good on the issues but one had record and one didn't. And so we were always looking for that. Also with Equality Pennsylvania we were trying to be very aware that Pennsylvania was very key nationally. And during the Obama administration, those eight years, I was invited to numerous briefings at the White House or other types of ways to engage with national leaders. And I remember the Obama administration's LGBTQ liaison, Gautam Raghavan, who's now the director of the Office of Presidential Personnel in the Biden-Harris White House. We would ask and we would say, "What LGBTQ Pennsylvanians really want to see is the president come out for marriage." And he would always say, "I'm not here to make news today. Here's what I can tell you." And they were always very clear about what the White House was willing to support. And we were always saying, "There's one thing that's missing. And our voters, our people, are very aware of that." MF: After you move from Equality Pennsylvania so you're looking for a full-time position in this line of work, how do you make it from Equality Pennsylvania into a full-time position? AS: So at the time I had been here for a while in the Lehigh Valley. But my LGBTQ activism was really statewide. And later during that time with Equality Pennsylvania one of the races that I got involved in was the Bethlehem mayor's race. And Equality Pennsylvania played a pretty significant role in supporting Willie Reynolds when he ran for mayor of Bethlehem the first time. He had been our champion for nondiscrimination. And he was running against Bob Donchez, who was elected mayor, who was really not our champion. He ended up being supportive, I would say like lukewarm supportive, but was certainly not a champion when it came to LGBTQ people. And I worked with Willie on a number of his statements, and one of them was a mail piece he put out where we had a whole bunch of LGBTQ leaders standing behind him. And it said, "As mayor I pledge to not marry anyone until I can marry everyone." He would only officiate at weddings for any residents once Pennsylvania gave him the legal authority to officiate gay weddings. And that was a really big statement for somebody in the Lehigh Valley. This wasn't Philadelphia. This wasn't Pittsburgh. It's the Lehigh Valley. And before Pennsylvania had marriage. And so that campaign, which he didn't win, but he lost by only a very small amount of votes, it kind of let me know that I really liked doing work here in the Lehigh Valley. And I had also been involved with some other campaigns in this area. Including Matt Cartwright when he ran for Congress around that same time actually. And Congressman Cartwright, he wasn't a congressman yet, he called me to ask for LGBTQ community support. And I told him that we were concerned that he didn't support marriage equality. And he said something like, "Well, I'm just not sure that the area is ready for it." And I told him that he should go talk to his son and then call me back. And he called me back a little bit later and he said, "I talked to my son and he says that his entire generation thinks of this as a nonissue and that I should get with the times and support marriage. And so I'm going to." And I really started feeling like this is an area, and at the time his district included Easton. It now doesn't. He lived in Scranton. He's become a very strong champion for LGBTQ rights in Washington. But I felt like I liked being involved locally. And I also felt like I didn't have to keep doing elections and campaigns. I wanted to just find community. And so when I decided to leave Equality Pennsylvania it was to start Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center. MF: Well, we're just about at the end of our time. And we're going to do a follow-up interview where Adrian will tell the origin story of Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center. But since we're nearing the end, and we've talked about your early years of activism, perhaps we could conclude with a question like looking back on all of that early work what mattered to you the most, is there anything you wish you would have focused on more during that time period. How do you reflect on those early years of activism in your life? AS: Yeah. I'm really grateful for my time at Muhlenberg because it really kind of let me learn how to be an activist. It let me test out my activism in different ways and try different things. Learn also what didn't work. It gave me an opportunity to become a better activist. And in many ways with my time in Equality Pennsylvania as well I was really young when I became the board president. I was 24. And there was a lot that I thought I knew that I didn't. There certainly are things I would do differently now that I have had experience leading organization on the staff side. But I will say that that moment in time felt so important and so urgent. It felt like such a strong sense of urgency. And I'm really glad that I had the opportunity to be an activist then. I also think that in terms of the issues that we prioritized we weren't necessarily setting the agenda. The agenda was being set by national actors and national media around okay, :Don't Ask, Don't Tell." Okay, marriage equality. These things were happening. And state equality organizations don't exist in a vacuum. Because the state doesn't exist in a vacuum. So Pennsylvania is part of the US. And what's happening in the US affects Pennsylvania. So we weren't necessarily setting the agenda the way we may have wanted to or not. We were responding and leading in our state. And we can always look back on time periods and say, "Well, we should have done more on this." Or we could look back now and say, "Equality Pennsylvania should have done more on trans inclusion. Or more on racial justice. Or more on cross-movement issues." And we did some. For example Equality Pennsylvania got behind UFCW's campaign, United Food and Commercial Workers' campaign, to prevent the privatization of state liquor stores. Because as state employees liquor store employees are protected by a state executive order for nondiscrimination. We don't have state legislation that would protect private sector workers. We got behind an effort against school vouchers because it would provide tax dollars to schools who don't have antibullying rules in place. And they don't have nondiscrimination protections for students or teachers. So there were some cross-movement issues. But we always had to make that very clear LGBTQ case for it. And I think that looking back now we can look back to that time period and say we should have just been better at solidarity in general. But in that moment LGBTQ issues were considered deeply controversial. And front and center in the media. And most of us were doing it as a volunteer, with limited capacity. And doing the best and making the best decisions we could at the time. I do think that we helped to change Pennsylvania, although winning marriage in Pennsylvania came through the court. It came through the Whitewood decision. The ACLU of Pennsylvania represented a bunch of couples. And a Bush-appointed judge, Judge Jones, who also ruled in the case related to evolution in schools, the Dover case, he gave his ruling that Governor Corbett didn't appeal that granted marriage in Pennsylvania in 2014. And to get to the point where a Republican governor didn't appeal a ruling on marriage was in large part because of trying to make this issue propulsive in our state and really broadening public support for it. So I do think that our work at Equality Pennsylvania made a tangible difference. MF: Can I ask one follow-up question? I know we're moving to the end. We had started this discussion of activism, especially at the college level, as being very much connected to your faith. Very much linked to your burgeoning, developing, or evolving understanding of yourself and Judaism in your life as being connected to politics and activism. It felt like hand in hand at the college. How did your faith journey move along with your journey into activism? AS: So in college I really changed how I identified as Jewish. Again. I changed in high school and I changed again in college. In college I was working at the Reform synagogue in Allentown, Congregation Keneseth Israel. And I was teaching in the religious school. And that experience was really important for me because I met a couple people there. One, her name is Janet Hogan. And she was a religious school director. A straight woman, but a mother of an adult gay son who was married to a rabbi named Victor Appell. And she kind of invited me to her family events, like some family dinners. And I really had a really important -- she was my boss but became a mentor in many ways. And Ellen Sussman, who was the cantor at this congregation, who was also very supportive. And I really loved that job but I realized that it wasn't where I felt any kind of spiritual connection. And so I joined a Reconstructionist congregation in the Lehigh Valley called Am Haskalah that had a lesbian rabbi and many LGBTQ congregants. It was small and very grassroots. But that community was really important for me as well, especially in college and afterwards. I was still wearing my yarmulke all the time at that time period. And both in college and then throughout my time with Equality Pennsylvania. And I do think that how people read other people based on religiosity has always been really interesting when it comes to the queer movement. Some people have tried to paint -- some people meaning of a different ideology than mine -- have tried to paint it as God versus gay. And I think that when the leader of a state equality organization is wearing visibly religious symbols that are personally meaningful to them and that are not performative it does change that conversation a bit. When I would speak at rallies and people would see a visibly religious guy speaking about marriage equality, it made an enormous -- or when I would testify in front of local governments from Philadelphia City Hall to Bethlehem to small towns, Cheltenham Borough, Springfield Township, I would go to these small towns and testify for nondiscrimination, or for in the case of Philadelphia passing a couple other bills that weren't related to nondiscrimination. It did change the conversation a little bit. It undercut the opposition. Remember in Bethlehem, some people tried to suggest that religious people were against nondiscrimination. And it was like are you kidding. I do remember at one of the meetings, Bethlehem city council would always have a religious leader give an invocation at the beginning of the meeting. Which was an issue we actually -- we were going to pick our battles on. But that wasn't going to be our battle. I did feel very uncomfortable. And we were always concerned about who was going to give the invocation on the nights our issue was being voted on. Were they going to invoke council members, to pray for them to make a decision against equality? And there was a pastor who we didn't know. I looked him up and it was like an evangelical church. It was like uh-oh. And he got up and he spoke and gave his invocation. He said, "I didn't know what was going to be on the agenda tonight. But I'm so," these aren't his exact words. But he said something along the lines of, "I'm so pleased to see that the city council is poised to take action to support the equal rights of all residents. That's what my faith teaches. And it's what most faiths teach." And we were like sigh of relief. So for me it was a little bit symbolic and also very much personal religious decision to continue to be visibly Jewish through that time period. MF: Well, at the end I just want to thank you and give you the opportunity. Is there anything that you think we missed in this first oral history that you want to return to or something you want to say at the end of the interview today? AS: No. MF: No? Adrian, this is such a pleasure, I'm so grateful that you took the time today. Thank you so much. AS: Thank you. Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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Adrian Shanker, Part 1, February 4, 2022
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Adrian Shanker recalls his life growing up in Westchester, New York, fighting for non-discrimination laws and the repeal of bans on same-sex marriage, his Jewish faith, and his activist work in the Lehigh Valley and beyond.
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LGBT-29
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2022-02-04
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Stories of Lehigh Valley LGBTQ+ Community Members (2022 - )
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Mary Foltz
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Adrian Shanker
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5.4 March 4, 2022 Adrian Shanker, Part 2, March 4, 2022 LGBT-30 01:24:43 LVLGBT Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive Collection Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository Support for the collection of this interview was provided by the American Council of Learned Societies (ACLS). trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Adrian Shanker Mary Foltz video/mp4 ShankerAdrian_20220304_video_edited_FINAL.mp4 1.0:|39(2)|66(13)|89(8)|114(10)|137(12)|162(8)|187(6)|206(9)|227(10)|252(12)|277(6)|300(9)|323(3)|348(15)|373(8)|396(6)|423(11)|448(13)|471(14)|494(7)|517(10)|538(15)|561(16)|584(11)|607(12)|630(4)|651(14)|678(2)|705(6)|730(17)|755(5)|782(9)|811(3)|834(13)|855(12)|884(3)|905(8)|932(3)|955(10)|982(3)|1009(4)|1034(10)|1059(6)|1082(8)|1109(6)|1134(7)|1155(8)|1180(13)|1201(10)|1222(10)|1247(3)|1268(15)|1295(10)|1318(14)|1343(15)|1366(13)|1393(5)|1418(10)|1441(8)|1464(15)|1487(14)|1512(8)|1539(7)|1566(3)|1591(4)|1616(6)|1639(8)|1664(11)|1689(2)|1710(15)|1737(13)|1762(11)|1793(7)|1826(11)|1853(4)|1876(12)|1903(6)|1928(5)|1951(12)|1970(12)|1989(13)|2014(11)|2037(6)|2060(3)|2081(4) 0 https://youtu.be/oro7sK8zntc YouTube video English 0 Interview Introductions Mary Foltz: My name is Mary Foltz, and I’m here with Adrian Shanker to talk about his life and experiences in LGBT organizations in the Lehigh Valley, as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. This year, our project has funding from ACLS. And Adrian and I are meeting at Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center on March 4, 2022. First, I just want to say thank you so much for being here today.
 ; Adrian Shanker: Thanks for doing this.
 ; MF: And I’m just going to ask quick consent questions, and then we’ll jump into the interview. So do you consent to this interview today? 0 84 Starting a LGBT Center in Lehigh Valley MF: So I want to start with this question. How did you decide to start the center?
 ; AS: Yeah. Well, after I’d been leading Equality Pennsylvania as the board president, which was a volunteer position, for at that point three years, and I was on the board for four years. And it was a time in Equality Pennsylvania where my role as the board president was still -- it was a pretty small staff, so it was a pretty significant role, and one that required a lot of statewide travel. And I knew that I wanted to do LGBTQ work full time. And I had been, you know, driving around Pennsylvania for Equality PA, and kept coming back to the Lehigh Valley feeling like, how come I had to keep driving elsewhere to access the basic cultural programs that I really wanted for my own life? You know, they just weren’t happening here on a regular enough level, or thea small stipend, but it was really an all-volunteer effort. 0 181 Role of Pennsylvania Diversity Network AS: Pennsylvania Diversity Network was the predecessor organization to Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center. And basically, Pennsylvania Diversity Network, the plan was for it to restructure into the center, with me as the executive director, and to move forward with a plan to open a physical space in the Lehigh Valley for LGBTQ people that would be a cultural hub, and a resource space, for our community.
 ; MF: Could you talk a little bit more about Pennsylvania Diversity Network, what they were doing before you got involved in visioning the center?
 ; AS: Yeah. So Pennsylvania Diversity Network was founded by Liz Bradbury and Patricia Sullivan, and it was pretty much an all-volunteer effort. 0 248 Importance of LGBT Centers AS: And as a result, it wasn’t an open-to-the-public community space, and there was really a need for that community space. And Liz and Trish and I, and others, had conversations about the need for a physical center for our community. I grew up going to an LGBT center in White Plains, New York. After my parents were divorced, I remember, when I was a kid, my mom took me and my brother to -- the LOFT LGBT Center had a gay parents with kids meetup in the ’90s. Later, there was an LGBT youth center, also in White Plains, New York, called Center Lane, that I went to in high school. So I knew the value of an LGBT center. And I was, kind of, surprised that we didn’t have one. And in my travels across Pennsylvania, I saw how important they were in Harrisburg and Philadelphia, for example, for the LGBT communities there. And a short-lived center had opened in Wilkes-Barre, and it didn’t last very long. But when that center opened, it was, like, Oh, if they can do this in Wilkes-Barre with a much smaller LGBT community, we can do this in Allentown, without question. 0 379 Obtaining a Physical Space for the Center AS: And at that announcement, we announced that the city of Allentown was going to sell us a building for one dollar that we could renovate. 
 ; 
 ; We had a design team already assembled of pro bono architects and engineers who were pledging their services to help us get the building ready. And we pitched to the community what the vision was. And it was very clear that we needed to raise a minimum of $75,000 from individuals in three months, so that we could demonstrate that the community was behind us. By the end of that three-month period, we had raised over $115,000. The average donor gave $400. So people did make stretch gifts -- what I mean by that are gifts beyond what they might normally donate in a year -- because they really did share the passion and the vision for having an LGBT community center. And from there, then, we started having conversations with corporations. And there was actually seven local-ish corporations who, together, provided additional funds needed to help us get into a physical space. 0 552 Problems with the First Space AS: That building we had been offered for a dollar from the city was on 11th and Turner. The exact address was 1021 West Turner Street. And it was a long-vacant building. It was a former, like, dairy building? And it had been in very poor condition. It was owned by the Allentown Redevelopment Authority. And we were able to work with Barry Isett & ; Associates, an engineering firm, who actually donated the cost of a Phase I Environmental Assessment. The assessment confirmed that there was over 1500 square feet of asbestos, and as a result, the construction cost was going to be much higher than we had anticipated, much, much higher. We already knew the building needed a lot of work, but now there was going to be major environmental remediation. 0 606 Looking for a Safer Building 0 806 First Two Grants So the first grant that we received was a very small grant from CenterLink to do a program called My 2024, where we had a community visioning session about people’s hopes, fears, and dreams about the next 10 years, after winning marriage equality nationally through the Obergefell v. Hodges decision. After winning marriage equality nationally, what did the Lehigh Valley LGBT community want to see for the next 10 years of the LGBT movement? 0 887 Creation of the LGBT Health Needs Assessment AS: And we were able to get funding to create an LGBT Health Needs Assessment, that we did as a pilot project in 2015 and ’16. In ’15, it was in the Lehigh Valley and central Pennsylvania. And then in 2016, it was expanded to four other regions in Pennsylvania, southwest PA, southeast PA, northeast PA, and, I believe, Philadelphia. And then after that, it actually became a biannual needs assessment. But that grant was very significant for us. At the time that we got it, it really allowed us to build up our credibility, and also, it gave us the funding we needed to really get off the ground. After we saw the data, though, that came back, I knew, and frankly, so did the Department of Health, that more work would be needed. And they awarded us other grants to do tobacco prevention and control. 0 979 Coming Together with the Community AS: I mean, we had so many volunteers here. The volunteers were so passionate. And really, it was the entire community coming together. We had churches and synagogues doing volunteer groups. We had corporations, like Air Products and Olympus, coming to do volunteer painting together. And we had individuals who were just coming and building community while they were volunteering. And Liz Bradbury actually led a lot of the volunteer activities, almost all of them. She oversaw the volunteers, really, as we were getting into the space, while most of my time was focused on continuing to fundraise, and making decisions about what the building would look like, and how we would pay for the building to look like that. So dealing with supplies, trying to get some pro bono support. For example, Habitat for Humanity Lehigh Valley came and retiled the floors in two of our bathrooms. Home Depot sent employees over to retile the floors in our front vestibule and our elevator, and donated all the supplies needed to do that project. So part of it was figuring out, like, what we were going to need, because we were really trying to not spend too much money to get open. 0 1067 Grand Opening of the Center AS: And our grand opening, in addition to remarks from dignitaries, it was just a momentous occasion. It was a rainy Saturday. I believe it was a Saturday. It was definitely on the weekend. And we had four hundred people show up. Everyone was really excited. We had a short VIP part for our founding donors, the people who gave five hundred or higher in that initial event that we hosted back in June 2014, right before the grand opening. And we had initially, right from day one, we said, founding donors will get the first view. And they came in a little bit before. We also had a volunteer recognition event that week for all the volunteers who helped us get the building ready, and that was a really exciting night, as well. You know, and from there, after the grand opening, it really moved very fast. So from that moment on, it was pretty nonstop. At the grand opening, we actually announced 10 programs that we’d be starting right away. And it wasn’t long before there was many more. 0 1185 Pulse Massacre AS: And really, throughout 2016, that continued. But something changed in the world in June 2016, which was two years after we announced our founding, which was the Pulse massacre. And so, you know, on the morning of Pulse, we all got the news just like everyone else did around the world. And we knew that we needed to respond, because we knew that our community needed us to respond. But in all of the work that we put into opening the building, we really hadn’t thought about security. And the Pulse massacre let us know that we needed to add security to the building, and we needed to do it pretty quickly. So we actually went to Air Products and PPL, and between the two companies, they gave us $16,000 of emergency grants to pay for security that we needed right away. And that was a challenging conversation, really. It was, we just hadn’t thought about it. And for good reason. We hadn’t had to have thought about it. 
 ; 0 1262 Community March for Orlando AS: [...] and we organized, within just a couple hours, a march from Candida’s to Stonewall. Hundreds of people showed up. And we marched. The police chief, at the time, joined us. Government officials, Republicans and Democrats. Congressman Charlie Dent was there as a Republican leader. We had many Democrats, as well. The owner of Candida’s, Candida Affa, joined us for the march. We started at Candida’s for some opening remarks, and then we marched over from her bar, which was on 12th and Chew, over to Hamilton Street, and then we marched down Hamilton Street to 10th Street, and then we turned to go on 10th Street over to the Stonewall. And in front of the Stonewall, people gathered on the steps of the Stonewall, hundreds of people. And we stood strong and resolved that love was stronger than hate. Our community would not keep from dancing. We would continue to do the work that was needed. We also, as a community in the Lehigh Valley, even though we were very new as an organization, raised about five thousand dollars to send down to the Orlando LGBT Center to support their urgent needs. And the next year, on the Pulse anniversary, we sent some additional money down to support the Pulse memorial. 0 1391 Programming Offered by Bradbury-Sullivan AS: But our programs continue to evolve. So in February 2017, we opened Project Silk, our LGBTQ youth program in partnership with Valley Youth House, through a grant. It was a quarter million dollar grant we received with Valley Youth House to start this program as a recreational-based safe space program for LGBTQ youth, specifically queer youth of color, and that it would be HIV-prevention focused. So the program started in February 2017, but we got the grant in the end of 2016 to be able to get started. And that was a really big win for our organization, to be able to get that kind of funding pretty early on. 0 1607 Gaining Support for the Center MF: [...] How does that happen in Pennsylvania or in the Lehigh Valley, where you and others involved in making the center able to motivate and activate wide support, from corporate support, governmental support, and then, of course, volunteer community support? 
 ; AS: I mean, we had to make a strong and compelling case for support, every direction we went. When we bought this building, we had to go appeal to Lehigh County to get property tax exemption, and we had to make the case that Bradbury-Sullivan Center was going to relieve the government of specific burdens in the types of services we would provide here. When we talked to the city of Allentown’s Redevelopment Authority earlier about receiving a one dollar Redevelopment Authority building, we had to make the case that having an LGBT center would not only serve the people in our community, but that it would beautify the neighborhood, it would provide economic benefit back to the community, and it would serve the entire community’s cultural needs, as well. And that’s what we’ve done. Even though we didn’t take that one dollar building, we have done that here in what was a vacant building. And this building, I didn’t talk about what it was. But historically, it was a warehouse. It was, at one point, a guns and ammo place, to my knowledge. The last thing it was before it was vacant for two years before we bought it was, the second floor was a law firm, the first floor was an architect office, and the third floor was the Lehigh County Drug and Alcohol building. And so it wasn’t conducive to one organization taking over the whole building. We had to do some work to make that, kind of, seamless. And it really felt like three different organizations, just the way the building was structured. And so we had to change that around a little bit and make it feel like one space, one community center. 0 1761 Vision for the Community: My 2024 MF: You talked about doing a community visioning, getting people together to envision what the center would be. And I’m just curious what some of those visions were that community members shared, and how that mapped out.
 ; AS: That wasn’t specific to the center, actually. It was just about, really, what the Lehigh Valley LGBTQ+ community wanted from the LGBT movement for the next ten years. And that was back in October 2014, so looking 2014 to 2024. 0 1944 Results of the LGBTQ Health Needs Assessment MF: I want to ask a little bit more about the public health programming, because you had that first big grant for the Health Needs Assessment. I’m curious. What did you uncover in that assessment in the first year? How has that shifted over the years that you’ve done it?
 ; AS: So we learned right from the beginning with the first LGBTQ Health Needs Assessment that LGBTQ people in the Lehigh Valley experienced health disparities through all aspects of their lives, except for one, which was access to health insurance. But in every other area of our lives, we were faring a little bit worse off from a health and wellness standpoint than the majority of the population. 0 2211 Impact of Public Health Programming on LGBTQ Community MF: I have some ideas about this, but I just want to ask a basic question. What is the impact of a statewide health assessment? What is the impact of public health programming from a local LGBT community center?
 ; AS: Yeah. So every community deserves an LGBT center. That’s what CenterLink says, and that was a mantra we used at the beginning. And we need our local community-based LGBT centers because community-based organizations are the first line of defense. So it’s where you go when you need to build community. You’re new to an area and you want to meet people. It’s also where you often turn when you need a referral for a doctor. It’s an organization you trust to get information. And so as a trusted messenger to our community, we were a great organization to provide health promotion programs. 0 2402 Making the LGBTQ Health Needs Assessment Statewide MF: Could you talk a little bit about the collaborative nature -- like, how you developed that Needs Assessment across the state?
 ; AS: Yeah. So the way that we made it a statewide sample was that we went to the Department of Health, and we said, It would be much easier, and less time consuming, and frankly, less expensive, if we did this as one statewide project instead of six separate projects, where you’re working with six different agencies in each different community. So the model we did was that we got one state grant to do this on a statewide basis, and then we collaborated and funded LGBT community-based organizations across Pennsylvania to be partners in that project, and actually, we partnered with over 30 organizations in Pennsylvania, and funded them to help us with the data collection. 0 2483 Combining Bradbury-Sullivan and Pride of the Greater Lehigh Valley MF: You talked a little bit about other public health programming, the public health -- the Needs Assessment. Can you talk a little bit about other programming, like your merging with Pride, and Pride programming that you put on?
 ; AS: Yeah. So Lehigh Valley Pride, as we call it, was previously known as Pride of the Greater Lehigh Valley. And it was an all-volunteer organization since the early ’90s. And courageous and dedicated volunteers that really made Lehigh Valley Pride happen every year. In 2017, Pride of the Greater Lehigh Valley merged with Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center. So I facilitated this merger. And we worked for many months with the board of Pride to consider how this might work. 0 2618 Making Pride Accessible AS: We also prioritize access and inclusion for people with disabilities, by bringing sign language interpreters to the stages, reserving parking and seating in the front of the stages for older adults and people with disabilities, ADA restrooms, large print programs, to really try to make for a more inclusive festival. Because Pride is for everyone, and that’s really important to us. I think that there were some skeptics over how it would work at the Jewish Community Center, but it really has worked pretty well to have a large festival. We also increased the faith programs at Pride by bringing them onsite. 0 2711 Arts and Cultural Programming MF: In addition to Pride programming, you have arts and cultural programming, and you have gallery programming. But you --
 ; AS: Yeah. I’ll talk a little bit about the galleries. So I talked about the library earlier, but our art galleries, for me, have been so exciting and important over the years. Really, the only queer art space in the Lehigh Valley, where that’s its mission, is to exhibit and celebrate LGBTQ artists. And we’ve balanced between local artists and not-so-local artists. And we’ve brought some exhibits that are museum quality. Mariette Pathy Allen, who is a major photojournalist, who has documented trans communities for decades, kicked off her newest book of photographs of trans people in Southeast Asia from our center with an exhibit here. 0 2840 Reacting to the Trump Presidency MF: You mentioned Trump, through this art gallery exhibit. What was it like to be a community center executive director during that presidential campaign and that presidency?
 ; AS: Well, you know, we’re a nonpartisan organization, so as all nonpartisan organizations, we don’t engage directly in electoral politics. We don’t tell people who to vote for. However, the day after Trump was elected, the morning after, when we all woke up to that news, we knew that it was going to be very challenging for our community, not because a Republican was elected president over a Democrat, but because a person who made such challenging comments about diverse communities, LGBTQ people, people of color, Muslims, transgender people in particular, there was a lot of very strong words and rhetoric that was spewn throughout the campaign. And so we wanted to make it clear to our community that we were a safe space for everyone to come and be, but that we would also resist when needed. 0 2966 Litigation Against Donald Trump AS: And of course, once Trump issued rules that were going to directly harm LGBTQ people, we took a different approach, which is, we actually filed lawsuits to block three Trump administration rules that would have caused direct harm to LGBTQ people. The first one was the denial of care rule, where Trump’s Health and Human Service Department issued a rule, a final rule, that would have invited discrimination from health care providers by saying that health care providers could, essentially, deny care to an LGBTQ person if it violated their moral and religious beliefs. In fact, the rule was so problematic, it didn’t even require the health care professional to notify their employer that they were doing so. It didn’t require a warm handoff to a different provider. It didn’t require a referral to a different provider. It didn’t require anything. It was such a harmful rule, designed specifically in a way that would have harmed people living with HIV and transgender people, as well as people who may need abortion care in the future. So we were very concerned about this rule. And in coalition with some other LGBT organizations and a couple doctors, we were a plaintiff in a lawsuit led by Lambda Legal, and were able to block the rule from going into effect. 0 3202 Navigating COVID-19 MF: There’s another big thing happening during the Trump administration, which is COVID-19. 
 ; AS: Yeah.
 ; MF: So here you have these three lawsuits, but you also have the global pandemic. How were you navigating in that time?
 ; AS: Well, nobody, including me, could have predicted the pandemic that has now been ongoing for -- we’ve just entered the third year (laughs) of the ongoing pandemic. That’s, certainly in my lifetime, unprecedented. At the start of the pandemic, like every other LGBT center, like every other nonprofit, it was just about navigating uncertainty. It was about, we don’t know what’s to come, but we have to adapt quickly. So in an effort to keep our community safe as well as our staff, we announced that staff would be working from home. We were shutting down our building. 0 3405 Making COVID-19 Data Inclusive AS: They were all reasonable changes given the uncertainty. In addition to what we were doing directly for our community in terms of programs, and in terms of what we were doing to manage staff transition to a virtual office, we were also directly engaged in advocacy from the very beginning. In March 2020, the CDC, under the Trump administration, put out a directive requiring all states to collect demographic data with regard to race, ethnicity, age, and gender. They did not include sexual orientation or gender identity. In April 2020, we sent -- we organized with the National LGBT Cancer Network, and 26 organizations joined us -- a letter to then-Pennsylvania Secretary of Health Dr. Rachel Levine, asking that Pennsylvania be the first state to mandate collection of sexual orientation and gender identity data for COVID infection, mortality, and hospitalization. One month later to the day, we were able to get Pennsylvania to collect COVID-19 infection data. 0 3564 Lehigh Valley's First Virtual Pride Festival AS: But really, it was a journey of health activism through that time, as well. And in terms of our programs, I mean, we had to continuously pivot. So I didn’t want to be canceling in-person programs too far out, because we kept being told, Oh, it’s just a couple more weeks. Oh, it’s just a couple more months. So we had to make decisions continuously. And moving Lehigh Valley Pride to a virtual Pride for the first time in its history was a heart-wrenching decision, but it would not have been possible to have an in-person Pride in 2020. So we ended up with a televised Pride festival on RCN, a star-studded event. Celebrities that participated included Michelle Visage, Carson Kressley, RuPaul Drag Racers like Silky Nutmeg Ganache, Jujubee. We had Peter Paige from Queer as Folk. We had Theo Germaine from The Politician. We had Holly Near, you know, iconic musician Holly Near. We had a whole bunch of really amazing folks. 0 3625 Pivoting to Virtual Programming AS: And we continued to pivot. We produced a virtual queer novel miniseries on our Facebook that ran as Facebook Live events, where we had, instead of in-person author talks, we had author talks on Facebook Live. We tried to curate content for our community to keep our community connected through a period of quarantine and uncertainty. And we started delivering healthy food packages to the youth program participants that we were serving, because they couldn’t come here, so we brought stuff there. As a resource to our community, we actually developed a subpage on our website for LGBT-specific COVID-19 information. We wrote guidances for the city of Allentown, county of Erie, Montgomery County, and the state of Pennsylvania about safer sex during the pandemic. 0 3716 Work as a Publisher/Author/Editor MF: I would say also during this time, you were moving into publishing. And I know this is, sort of, adjacent to the community center, but you’re publishing on public health, editing collections. You have another book coming out soon. Could you talk a little bit about how that work as an author, as an editor, is connected to your work with the center, or just a little bit about your publication?
 ; AS: Yeah. So after we did our first Needs Assessment in 2015, I became very passionate about LGBTQ barriers to care and access to care. When it comes to accessing, the unmet dream of health equity, defined by the US government, is the attainment of the highest quality of health for all people. That’s the definition from Healthy People 2020. LGBTQ people don’t have that. So I actually went and enrolled in a graduate certificate program at George Washington University in LGBT health policy and practice. 0 4028 Role in Continuing Scholarship MF: I can’t wait to see that book. I just want to say that. And it’s recorded. I can’t wait to buy that. Beyond publishing those two, curating those two collections, one of which will be out soon, is Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center participating in other kinds of publications, research publications, or --
 ; AS: Yeah. So something that’s, kind of, unique to Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center is our work to make contributions to the literature more broadly. So we actually conduct original research. We’re so lucky to have a data and evaluation department. We present the results of our programs at state and national conferences, for example, American Public Health Association, Society for Public Health Educators. That’s just two examples. And we have also worked to try to publish some of the results from our Needs Assessment, or programmatic results from our archive, or from some of our health programs, in either peer-reviewed or other academic journals. That really allows us to demonstrate the role that Bradbury-Sullivan Center plays, and more broadly, the role that LGBT community centers play in all communities, because the work that we do here is not so dissimilar from other communities. And so our contribution to the literature, I think, has been really important. 0 4185 Work on Legislation Banning Conversion Therapy
 ; MF: You mentioned the bans on conversion therapy, and I’m wondering if you could talk a little bit more about how that worked in Bethlehem, in Allentown, and Easton. Can you just describe that a bit more, what that process was like once you had the legislation drafted?
 ; AS: So National Center for Lesbian Rights drafted the legislation, and shared it with local elected officials in our community. We built a strong coalition, though. So our role was that we were doing public education and awareness in support of ending conversion therapy in our communities. So for example, we partnered with KidsPeace, which is a mental health hospital here in the Lehigh Valley, who shared in public meetings that their operating rules don’t allow conversion therapy for their clinicians. The director of the Allentown Health Bureau spoke out, saying that she had talked to local pediatricians, who have confirmed that they have seen the harms of conversion therapy in our community from their patients. So we mobilized our community, is really the role that we played, as grassroots organizing. And we were able to see these three laws passed very quickly in each municipality. 0 4369 Starting the Archival Collection MF: Well, I want to ask a question about the archives, because we haven’t talked about that yet, and you really, from the beginning, were focusing also on archival collection when you were envisioning the center and when it was opening. So could I ask about that?
 ; AS: Yeah. 
 ; MF: Why did you (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) --
 ; AS: It was one of the first programs of the center, actually. So very early on, I approached Tina Hertel, the library director of Muhlenberg College, and we set up a meeting with her, and with Susan Falciani Maldonado, special collections archivist. And the meeting was really -- we had some stuff already. There was stuff in Liz and Trish’s basement. I had some stuff in my house. And we didn’t want to be holding onto it. And we also knew that there was a lot of stuff in the community. We looked at similar archives in central Pennsylvania and Philadelphia. But something that was really important to me was community ownership. So our agreement with Muhlenberg is the only one we’re aware of in the country where an LGBT center maintains ownership of the archival materials, and it’s professionally housed and preserved at a university library. And Muhlenberg was willing to do that with us. And it’s been an incredible partnership. 0 4554 Exceeding Goals for the Center MF: The center does so much educational programming, training, arts and culture, galleries, reading groups, film series, archival collection, public health. You’re involved in lawsuits when needed to protect our community. Was that part of the original vision that we started with today? Did you think, when you were starting --
 ; AS: We have far exceeded the original vision. I mean, the original vision was getting a physical space. We said we were going to revolutionize the programs and services available to the LGBT community. That’s language we used in 2014. I think we have absolutely done that. And that does not mean that there’s not more that’s needed. Absolutely. There is always more we can do for our community. Our current director of development, Matt Easterwood, likes to say, “More money, more mission.” So as Bradbury-Sullivan Center continues to grow, more can be done for the community at large. But, you know, part of my decision to move on from Bradbury-Sullivan Center is because I feel like sometimes I can be clouded by my original vision. And I think leadership changes are good over time. And there’s an opportunity for new ideas, for new leadership that comes with different expertise, different backgrounds, different passions. And actually, I think that’s good for organizations over time. We have absolutely grown past my wildest dreams. 0 4710 People Important to the Formation of the Center MF: Well, we’re right about at the end. You ended with this lovely statement about, you know, it will continue with new leadership and wonderful people that are still here. And it leads me to, maybe, a final question or two. Do you want to talk about the people that have really made this organization into this incredible support for our community?
 ; AS: Yeah. Why don’t you pause for a minute and give me a minute to think about that?
 ; (break in video)
 ; AS: Throughout the journey of opening the center, there’s been so many people who have been part of that journey, and there’s no way I could possibly name every single person. But I do want to share some names of folks that were critical to the start, the opening, and the growth of the center over time. So from the very beginning, Liz Bradbury and Patricia Sullivan, and Liz Kleintop, original board members of Pennsylvania Diversity Network, at the time, that really were willing to go with me on this journey. 0 MovingImage Adrian Shanker recounts the inception of the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the work it does to continue to serve the LGBTQ+ community in the Lehigh Valley and Pennsylvania as a whole.
 ; INTERVIEW WITH ADRIAN SHANKER MARCH 4, 2022 MARY FOLTZ: My name is Mary Foltz, and I'm here with Adrian Shanker to talk about his life and experiences in LGBT organizations in the Lehigh Valley, as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. This year, our project has funding from ACLS. And Adrian and I are meeting at Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center on March 4, 2022. First, I just want to say thank you so much for being here today. ADRIAN SHANKER: Thanks for doing this. MF: And I'm just going to ask quick consent questions, and then we'll jump into the interview. So do you consent to this interview today? AS: I do. MF: Do you consent to having this interview transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online? AS: I do. MF: Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats, like short films, articles, websites? AS: I do. MF: Okay. And I just want to remind you that you will have 30 days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review the interview, decide if you want to redact any material, or if you want to pull the interview from the collection. Do you understand that, that you have time? AS: Yes. MF: Okay. Great. So last time we did an interview, we really talked a lot about previous organizations that you've been a part of. But today, we're really going to talk about the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center. So I want to start with this question. How did you decide to start the center? AS: Yeah. Well, after I'd been leading Equality Pennsylvania as the board president, which was a volunteer position, for at that point three years, and I was on the board for four years. And it was a time in Equality Pennsylvania where my role as the board president was still -- it was a pretty small staff, so it was a pretty significant role, and one that required a lot of statewide travel. And I knew that I wanted to do LGBTQ work full time. And I had been, you know, driving around Pennsylvania for Equality PA, and kept coming back to the Lehigh Valley feeling like, how come I had to keep driving elsewhere to access the basic cultural programs that I really wanted for my own life? You know, they just weren't happening here on a regular enough level, or they were not easy to find when they did happen. And so the desire was to open an LGBT community center for the Lehigh Valley. And I knew that I had the skills and the background to do it. But what I wasn't sure of is if other people in the community felt that it was needed. So the process to start the center started with some visioning, and some private community meetings with key individuals or potential stakeholder groups. And then it was launched publicly at the gala for Pennsylvania Diversity Network in 2014, in June 2014. Pennsylvania Diversity Network was the predecessor organization to Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center. And basically, Pennsylvania Diversity Network, the plan was for it to restructure into the center, with me as the executive director, and to move forward with a plan to open a physical space in the Lehigh Valley for LGBTQ people that would be a cultural hub, and a resource space, for our community. MF: Could you talk a little bit more about Pennsylvania Diversity Network, what they were doing before you got involved in visioning the center? AS: Yeah. So Pennsylvania Diversity Network was founded by Liz Bradbury and Patricia Sullivan, and it was pretty much an all-volunteer effort. Liz drew a small stipend, but it was really an all-volunteer effort. As a regional advocacy organization for LGBTQ people. It operated out of their home. And as a result, it wasn't an open-to-the-public community space, and there was really a need for that community space. And Liz and Trish and I, and others, had conversations about the need for a physical center for our community. I grew up going to an LGBT center in White Plains, New York. After my parents were divorced, I remember, when I was a kid, my mom took me and my brother to -- the LOFT LGBT Center had a gay parents with kids meetup in the '90s. Later, there was an LGBT youth center, also in White Plains, New York, called Center Lane, that I went to in high school. So I knew the value of an LGBT center. And I was, kind of, surprised that we didn't have one. And in my travels across Pennsylvania, I saw how important they were in Harrisburg and Philadelphia, for example, for the LGBT communities there. And a short-lived center had opened in Wilkes-Barre, and it didn't last very long. But when that center opened, it was, like, Oh, if they can do this in Wilkes-Barre with a much smaller LGBT community, we can do this in Allentown, without question. So it started with visiting some of the other centers, getting some ideas, talking to stakeholders, meeting with individuals, some potential funders, some community leaders, both LGBT and from the broader community, to get a sense of what might be possible. We also met with elected officials to try to get a sense of what kind of support there would be from the government, potentially, for a new community center in the Lehigh Valley. And by the time that we were ready to launch publicly, we used the annual gala for Pennsylvania Diversity Network, which was the LGBT Community Leadership Awards. And at that time, it happened in June every year. And it was about 180 attendees. And it was at Allentown Symphony Hall in the Rodale Room. And so we had told people, "there's going to be a very special announcement, and you're going to want to be here for this announcement". And at that announcement, we announced that the city of Allentown was going to sell us a building for one dollar that we could renovate. We had a design team already assembled of pro bono architects and engineers who were pledging their services to help us get the building ready. And we pitched to the community what the vision was. And it was very clear that we needed to raise a minimum of $75,000 from individuals in three months, so that we could demonstrate that the community was behind us. By the end of that three-month period, we had raised over $115,000. The average donor gave $400. So people did make stretch gifts -- what I mean by that are gifts beyond what they might normally donate in a year -- because they really did share the passion and the vision for having an LGBT community center. And from there, then, we started having conversations with corporations. And there was actually seven local-ish corporations who, together, provided additional funds needed to help us get into a physical space. Those corporations were Jerner & ; Palmer law firm in Philadelphia ; Gross McGinley law firm here in Allentown ; Capital Blue Cross, our health insurance company located in Allentown ; the Greater Lehigh Valley Chamber of Commerce ; OraSure. I may be missing one. It will come back to me. Oh, and ESSA Bank & ; Trust Foundation, as well. So those local funders gave us the corporate funding to be able to balance that. I left my last job in September 2014 to do this work full time. We had raised enough money for me to come on board full time. And it really was going to require full-time fundraising to be able to get into a physical space and build up an organization. I had been working in marketing while I was leading Equality Pennsylvania. I worked in marketing for a local LGBT-owned business called Wolper Information Services, and they were based in Easton. And actually, the owner at the time, Susan Wolper, let me continue working out of their space. She donated office space, basically, to start the center. So I continued working out of that building in Easton until we had acquired a space, which was about a year and a half. But from the moment that I started doing the work full time, the focus was fundraising and really trying to get into a building. That building we had been offered for a dollar from the city was on 11th and Turner. The exact address was 1021 West Turner Street. And it was a long-vacant building. It was a former, like, dairy building? And it had been in very poor condition. It was owned by the Allentown Redevelopment Authority. And we were able to work with Barry Isett & ; Associates, an engineering firm, who actually donated the cost of a Phase I Environmental Assessment. The assessment confirmed that there was over 1500 square feet of asbestos, and as a result, the construction cost was going to be much higher than we had anticipated, much, much higher. We already knew the building needed a lot of work, but now there was going to be major environmental remediation. And so we made a decision to walk away from that building, and instead, we found a real estate agent, Rob Ritter, a local Weichert real estate agent, who is part of the LGBT community. And he helped us to look for other properties. We looked at a whole bunch of properties together. And finally, we found 522 West Maple Street. We bought this building on September 30, 2015, so only about a year and a quarter after announcing publicly to the community, and only a year after I was doing this work full time. We were able to acquire this building. And that acquisition is complicated for a nonprofit, any nonprofit, to acquire property. It's more complicated for a brand-new nonprofit, essentially. We really only had one year of finances behind us, even though we had restructured from Pennsylvania Diversity Network. The budget at Pennsylvania Diversity Network was about $22,000 a year. So we really only had one year of financials that included staff to show to banks. And we were turned down initially by traditional banks. And we ended up getting a mortgage through People First Federal Credit Union. And they took a risk on us as a small nonprofit. We had a very compelling business plan and were able to make a strong case for how we'd be able to pay off the mortgage, and not only provide essential services to the community, but what our funding would look like. So, yeah, September 30, we closed on the building. The building had been for sale for about $369,000, I believe. And we bought it for $340,000. It's 13,000 square feet. And it needed a good amount of work. Not the kind of work that would require major construction. It needed some aesthetic improvements, and it needed a little bit of repairs. So we were able to manage those repairs, and we had volunteers assist with aesthetic support, repainting, removing the carpet from the floors, scraping the glue off the floors that was underneath the carpet, that kind of stuff. And we had 3100 volunteer hours from more than 300 volunteers over a six-month period before we opened to the public on April 9, 2016. For our grand opening, we had more than four hundred people in attendance. We had remarks from the lieutenant governor at the time, Mike Stack ; the CEO of CenterLink, the association of LGBT centers, Denise Spivak. She flew in to speak at the event. It was a moment for our entire community to celebrate. And really, every donor who gave any amount of money, five dollars to five thousand dollars, felt like they were part of it. Every volunteer who participated in some aspect knew that they were part of it. You know? So it was really, the community came together to support and open an LGBT community center. At the same time, though, we were also building up what our programs would look like. So if we go back a little bit, right after I started, in addition to raising money for the building, we also had to start doing programs, because you can't only fundraise, right? So the first grant that we received was a very small grant from CenterLink to do a program called My 2024, where we had a community visioning session about people's hopes, fears, and dreams about the next 10 years, after winning marriage equality nationally through the Obergefell v. Hodges decision. After winning marriage equality nationally, what did the Lehigh Valley LGBT community want to see for the next 10 years of the LGBT movement? We also then received a grant from the Women's 5K Classic. These were the only two grants we received in 2014, actually, our first two. And the Women's 5K Classic provided a grant to have us host a women's health fair, and start some education around gynecologic cancer screenings. And that was our first health grant. And shortly after we did that, we were able to work with the Pennsylvania Department of Health with the support of one of my mentors, Dr. Scout, who at the time worked at CenterLink. Currently, today, he leads the National LGBT Cancer Network. And he facilitated an introduction for me with the Pennsylvania Department of Health's Division of Tobacco Prevention and Control, and provided technical assistance, as well, to me, to teach me how to work with government funders. And we were able to get funding to create an LGBT Health Needs Assessment, that we did as a pilot project in 2015 and '16. In '15, it was in the Lehigh Valley and central Pennsylvania. And then in 2016, it was expanded to four other regions in Pennsylvania, southwest PA, southeast PA, northeast PA, and, I believe, Philadelphia. And then after that, it actually became a biannual needs assessment. But that grant was very significant for us. At the time that we got it, it really allowed us to build up our credibility, and also, it gave us the funding we needed to really get off the ground. After we saw the data, though, that came back, I knew, and frankly, so did the Department of Health, that more work would be needed. And they awarded us other grants to do tobacco prevention and control. I mean, we received some significant funding from the Pennsylvania Department of Health, first through the Needs Assessment, and then to start doing health promotion around tobacco prevention and control. And those grants really allowed us to start building as an organization at the same time as we were physically trying to get into a space, and once we got into the space, to start planning what our programs would look like. The time period in between purchasing the building and opening was so exciting. I mean, we had so many volunteers here. The volunteers were so passionate. And really, it was the entire community coming together. We had churches and synagogues doing volunteer groups. We had corporations, like Air Products and Olympus, coming to do volunteer painting together. And we had individuals who were just coming and building community while they were volunteering. And Liz Bradbury actually led a lot of the volunteer activities, almost all of them. She oversaw the volunteers, really, as we were getting into the space, while most of my time was focused on continuing to fundraise, and making decisions about what the building would look like, and how we would pay for the building to look like that. So dealing with supplies, trying to get some pro bono support. For example, Habitat for Humanity Lehigh Valley came and retiled the floors in two of our bathrooms. Home Depot sent employees over to retile the floors in our front vestibule and our elevator, and donated all the supplies needed to do that project. So part of it was figuring out, like, what we were going to need, because we were really trying to not spend too much money to get open. I'm sorry. I need to pause again. TIERSA CURRY: I'm good. AS: Okay. So, yeah. I mean, as we were preparing to open, it was just so much exciting momentum here at the building. And our grand opening, in addition to remarks from dignitaries, it was just a momentous occasion. It was a rainy Saturday. I believe it was a Saturday. It was definitely on the weekend. And we had four hundred people show up. Everyone was really excited. We had a short VIP part for our founding donors, the people who gave five hundred or higher in that initial event that we hosted back in June 2014, right before the grand opening. And we had initially, right from day one, we said, founding donors will get the first view. And they came in a little bit before. We also had a volunteer recognition event that week for all the volunteers who helped us get the building ready, and that was a really exciting night, as well. You know, and from there, after the grand opening, it really moved very fast. So from that moment on, it was pretty nonstop. At the grand opening, we actually announced 10 programs that we'd be starting right away. And it wasn't long before there was many more. I think none of us quite predicted how much momentum there would be. And it was a constant balancing act between saying yes to everything that the community needed, and saying no, because we didn't have the resources to do everything at once. So we started with our LGBTQ library, and we started offering HIV testing, and we had a bereavement group. And we had partnered with other nonprofits. Like, Turning Point of Lehigh Valley was one of our first rental partners. Lehigh Valley Humanists was also one of our first rental partners. And so we had this space, and it was really exciting. And we wanted to start utilizing it as best as we could. And really, throughout 2016, that continued. But something changed in the world in June 2016, which was two years after we announced our founding, which was the Pulse massacre. And so, you know, on the morning of Pulse, we all got the news just like everyone else did around the world. And we knew that we needed to respond, because we knew that our community needed us to respond. But in all of the work that we put into opening the building, we really hadn't thought about security. And the Pulse massacre let us know that we needed to add security to the building, and we needed to do it pretty quickly. So we actually went to Air Products and PPL, and between the two companies, they gave us $16,000 of emergency grants to pay for security that we needed right away. And that was a challenging conversation, really. It was, we just hadn't thought about it. And for good reason. We hadn't had to have thought about it. But the Pulse massacre really reminded us that we needed to be thinking about that. At the same time, we needed to be thinking about our community's needs, and we organized, within just a couple hours, a march from Candida's to Stonewall. Hundreds of people showed up. And we marched. The police chief, at the time, joined us. Government officials, Republicans and Democrats. Congressman Charlie Dent was there as a Republican leader. We had many Democrats, as well. The owner of Candida's, Candida Affa, joined us for the march. We started at Candida's for some opening remarks, and then we marched over from her bar, which was on 12th and Chew, over to Hamilton Street, and then we marched down Hamilton Street to 10th Street, and then we turned to go on 10th Street over to the Stonewall. And in front of the Stonewall, people gathered on the steps of the Stonewall, hundreds of people. And we stood strong and resolved that love was stronger than hate. Our community would not keep from dancing. We would continue to do the work that was needed. We also, as a community in the Lehigh Valley, even though we were very new as an organization, raised about five thousand dollars to send down to the Orlando LGBT Center to support their urgent needs. And the next year, on the Pulse anniversary, we sent some additional money down to support the Pulse memorial. We've really rarely done fundraising for other communities, but that was a moment where it felt very needed, and our community wanted to do that. They really wanted to give as a Lehigh Valley LGBT community voice. Later in 2016, that's really -- we really started to grow pretty quickly in 2016 and in 2017, and we were able to bring on more staff. Really, to get us through the grand opening, it was a very lean team here at the center, and we started to grow. We started to have more and more employees. And that trend has continued, certainly through today, where our growth has been pretty unprecedented. But our programs continue to evolve. So in February 2017, we opened Project Silk, our LGBTQ youth program in partnership with Valley Youth House, through a grant. It was a quarter million dollar grant we received with Valley Youth House to start this program as a recreational-based safe space program for LGBTQ youth, specifically queer youth of color, and that it would be HIV-prevention focused. So the program started in February 2017, but we got the grant in the end of 2016 to be able to get started. And that was a really big win for our organization, to be able to get that kind of funding pretty early on. Our health programs really had been the strongest-funded part of our organization, and then when we received the youth program, that added to it. Also, our library and our art galleries were doing very well, engaging the community. We partnered with Lehigh University to be able to offer community reading groups. We were able to bring in a professional curator, Deborah Rabinsky, who curated most of our exhibits in our galleries, and was really able to help us to develop the gallery. We, at some point, launched the Reel Queer Film Series to be able to provide free screenings of art house, independent,and documentary films that celebrate LGBTQ lives. And as we continued to grow, more was possible. You know, more became possible. One former employee who was really pivotal to that growth was Oliver Reilly, who goes by Ollie. And Ollie was the first development staff person here. And it's very hard for a new nonprofit to hire a development staff person, because it's a big amount of money to commit to, and you're really relying on that person's ability to raise the money, so it's a little scary. But I knew, as a fundraising professional myself, I knew how necessary it was for our growth. And when we brought Ollie in, fundraising really continued to grow beyond what it was before when it was just me doing the fundraising. And by the way, I should mention that from day one, we've had interns, volunteers. Some of them have helped with fundraising. We've also had staff members with various roles in fundraising, as well. But Ollie was the first full-time development employee, other than me. And that was pivotal, in terms of our growth as an organization. From there, I actually think that the community really started taking us seriously after we bought the building. That was the moment where people really saw us as -- we went from being a dream to being a reality for a lot of people. Including me. But I think that people that weren't willing to invest early on, by making donations, including large ones, to a startup, once we had the building, they were really willing to be part of it. MF: Can you go back a minute to -- I mean, we're still, kind of, in those first years. I mean? , you talk about corporate support, governmental support. Even though you didn't go with the one dollar building, you had an offer out there from the city of Allentown. How does that happen in Pennsylvania or in the Lehigh Valley, where you and others involved in making the center able to motivate and activate wide support, from corporate support, governmental support, and then, of course, volunteer community support? AS: I mean, we had to make a strong and compelling case for support, every direction we went. When we bought this building, we had to go appeal to Lehigh County to get property tax exemption, and we had to make the case that Bradbury-Sullivan Center was going to relieve the government of specific burdens in the types of services we would provide here. When we talked to the city of Allentown's Redevelopment Authority earlier about receiving a one dollar Redevelopment Authority building, we had to make the case that having an LGBT center would not only serve the people in our community, but that it would beautify the neighborhood, it would provide economic benefit back to the community, and it would serve the entire community's cultural needs, as well. And that's what we've done. Even though we didn't take that one dollar building, we have done that here in what was a vacant building. And this building, I didn't talk about what it was. But historically, it was a warehouse. It was, at one point, a guns and ammo place, to my knowledge. The last thing it was before it was vacant for two years before we bought it was, the second floor was a law firm, the first floor was an architect office, and the third floor was the Lehigh County Drug and Alcohol building. And so it wasn't conducive to one organization taking over the whole building. We had to do some work to make that, kind of, seamless. And it really felt like three different organizations, just the way the building was structured. And so we had to change that around a little bit and make it feel like one space, one community center. And, you know, the support that we started receiving, we received because we asked for it. We made a compelling case for support. With corporate support, we would engage employees of those corporations and ask for their help to make the case to the company. We would talk about what we would be able to accomplish from cultural and economic lenses. So what would be our economic benefit back to the Lehigh Valley, and what would be the cultural benefit for the people who live here? MF: You talked about doing a community visioning, getting people together to envision what the center would be. And I'm just curious what some of those visions were that community members shared, and how that mapped out. AS: That wasn't specific to the center, actually. It was just about, really, what the Lehigh Valley LGBTQ+ community wanted from the LGBT movement for the next ten years. And that was back in October 2014, so looking 2014 to 2024. And it was right after we won marriage equality nationally at the Supreme Court. So some of the things people talked about were, you know, a final end to the AIDS epidemic. You know, that with how many years had gone past, that that needed to be reprioritized. They talked about winning nondiscrimination protection, so that LGBTQ people didn't fear discrimination from landlords or employers based on who they are. People talked about creating more opportunities for parents of LGBT kids, and for LGBTQ parents in general. People talked about, you know, navigating family building as an LGBTQ family, or as a couple, or even as an individual. They talked about a variety of things. And some people did talk about the need for a community space. But really, we weren't thinking local as much as we were thinking from a national lens. We did, however, at Lehigh Valley Pride in 2015, we did some informal surveying to get people's ideas about what a center might be. It wasn't a scientific survey the way that our LGBT Health Needs Assessment is, where it's professionally analyzed, and it goes through an IRB process, like university researchers would do. This was more just for our own programmatic knowledge, so that we could start to build the programs that our community would respond to. MF: What did people write down? What were they interested in for the center, and how did that influence your development of programming? AS: It was clear that people wanted arts and culture programs. Some of the words that community members use are not necessarily the words that funders use to describe what is sometimes a similar thing. So people would talk about social programs, or fun ways to connect with community, and we talk about that today as community building and cultural programs. But that's really what we're talking about. People talked about a place for support groups. They talked about a film festival or film screenings. There was a variety of ideas. And not every idea was something that was able to be operationalized. Even seven and a half years later, we haven't been able to with everything. And needs change over time, as well. But we did really think about some of those initial thoughts that we heard, and to try to operationalize many of them. MF: I want to ask a little bit more about the public health programming, because you had that first big grant for the Health Needs Assessment. I'm curious. What did you uncover in that assessment in the first year? How has that shifted over the years that you've done it? AS: So we learned right from the beginning with the first LGBTQ Health Needs Assessment that LGBTQ people in the Lehigh Valley experienced health disparities through all aspects of their lives, except for one, which was access to health insurance. But in every other area of our lives, we were faring a little bit worse off from a health and wellness standpoint than the majority of the population. And in some health areas, significantly worse off. And health insurance is often the primary indicator of one's health, but for the LGBT community, it wasn't the primary indicator. We had greater access to health insurance, and worsened health outcomes, lower screening rates. And ultimately, what that came down to is people having negative reactions from healthcare providers, many people not having a primary care provider at all, and only really getting care when it was absolutely necessary. You know, going to the emergency room when something really serious is happening. So we learned that there was specific disparities, especially around tobacco, cancer, HIV. So we started doing work in those areas, health promotion work. And we were able to go back to the Department of Health to get some funding that was able to really let us hire more staff, or at that point, really, hire staff, and to start these health promotion programs in the community. And what those programs looked like at the beginning -- we were learning as we were going. There was no roadmap, really, for us. We had great funding partners that taught us a lot, and that also took some chances with us, let us explore what might work for our community. And we created some great programs. We went into schools and did tobacco prevention workshops. We did presentations at LGBTQ churches. We stickered people at gay bars with stickers that said, "LGBT Smoke Free." We actually paid Pride festivals across eastern Pennsylvania to go smoke free. By 2018, we had 10 Pride festivals in Pennsylvania that had committed to be smoke free, with really only a couple years of that work. By 2019, it was 14 Pride festivals. So our work really continued to grow, and especially the health promotion work really took off. We had some other grants around cancer prevention that let us continue some of that work around anal cancer, around breast cancer, cervical cancer, to let us continue some of that, as well, and to grow it. In 2018, when we conducted our Needs Assessment in 2018 -- which was the first time we did the assessment statewide, as opposed to separate assessments in six different regions of the state. The results -- we did a data tour where we went out around the state to present the data to the community. And one of the people who came to the Pittsburgh presentation was from the Network of the National Library of Medicine. And she came up to me afterwards and said, "This data is really impressive. We have some funding that you should apply for." And we did. And we were able to get -- one of our most prestigious funding sources has been the Network of the National Library of Medicine. And they have continued to be a funder to this day, to fund some of our really incredible health promotion work. They've funded work around training health providers. They've funded work around cancer screenings, flu vaccines. So we've been able to explore a lot, to the point where today, you know, our health programs manager has a doctorate in public health, which would have seemed unfathomable to us, certainly in 2014, and even in 2016 and 2018, to be able to bring on staff with credentials like that to lead our programs. I mean, we've really built up, as an organization, our credibility, not only for the funders but for job applicants, as well. MF: I have some ideas about this, but I just want to ask a basic question. What is the impact of a statewide health assessment? What is the impact of public health programming from a local LGBT community center? AS: Yeah. So every community deserves an LGBT center. That's what CenterLink says, and that was a mantra we used at the beginning. And we need our local community-based LGBT centers because community-based organizations are the first line of defense. So it's where you go when you need to build community. You're new to an area and you want to meet people. It's also where you often turn when you need a referral for a doctor. It's an organization you trust to get information. And so as a trusted messenger to our community, we were a great organization to provide health promotion programs. The Needs Assessment -- one of our early funders, United Way Greater Lehigh Valley -- actually, they weren't somebody who funded us early on, but they were an organization that we were trying to get their funding. And Marci Lesko, who was the vice president of the United Way, used to tell me, "Without the data, the chatta don't matta." And she said it just like that. And so we went out to get the data. You know, we needed local data to make the case for what the challenges affecting our community were. Health is broad. So health is not just about your visit to your doctor. It's also about a person experiencing social isolation and loneliness. It's about barriers to care. It's about a variety of things. So yes, it's about cancer screenings, and it's about behavioral risks. But it's also about how we care for each other as a community. So the Needs Assessment really has given us a kind of guiding force to our work, to our programmatic development, and it's actually been utilized for every grant we've applied for, almost every single grant here at the center, including arts programs grants, to make the case for what our community needs. It's hard data. It's legitimate data. It's data that's professionally analyzed. And we have a very large sample size. The data stands up. We're able to utilize those data to achieve results. It's actually probably the most consequential program that we do-- (Video interrupted) AS: So, you know, we were talking about public health. And one of the things that, really, Bradbury-Sullivan Community Center has worked to create, the Pennsylvania LGBTQ Health Needs Assessment is a biannual measurement tool of health disparities and barriers to care. It's become one of the most consequential things that we do here, possibly the most consequential thing, because it's the largest state-level LGBTQ health data in the US in any state. And it's actually been cited as a major data source by researchers, by hospitals. It's used by hospitals for programmatic improvements. Other states have even looked at it as a model for what they might do in their state. And so it's something I'm really proud of having created here, and having really grown. And it has supported every other program at the center. MF: Could you talk a little bit about the collaborative nature -- like, how you developed that Needs Assessment across the state? AS: Yeah. So the way that we made it a statewide sample was that we went to the Department of Health, and we said, It would be much easier, and less time consuming, and frankly, less expensive, if we did this as one statewide project instead of six separate projects, where you're working with six different agencies in each different community. So the model we did was that we got one state grant to do this on a statewide basis, and then we collaborated and funded LGBT community-based organizations across Pennsylvania to be partners in that project, and actually, we partnered with over 30 organizations in Pennsylvania, and funded them to help us with the data collection. We then share the data back with them. So it's a collaborative project. It's one where we all feel a sense of ownership in it. All the other centers are named in the report. And they have access to the data, as well, including the local data for their region. And I think that's one of the reasons it's been so successful, is because we all work together in Pennsylvania to achieve this unified goal. MF: You talked a little bit about other public health programming, the public health -- the Needs Assessment. Can you talk a little bit about other programming, like your merging with Pride, and Pride programming that you put on? AS: Yeah. So Lehigh Valley Pride, as we call it, was previously known as Pride of the Greater Lehigh Valley. And it was an all-volunteer organization since the early '90s. And courageous and dedicated volunteers that really made Lehigh Valley Pride happen every year. In 2017, Pride of the Greater Lehigh Valley merged with Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center. So I facilitated this merger. And we worked for many months with the board of Pride to consider how this might work. And ultimately, it was mutually agreed upon that we would merge together, and we would take over the planning of the festival going forward. That merger was important, because for an event of this size to continue to grow, it really needed professional staff support. And that's what we were able to do, dedicate a full-time employee to the production of Lehigh Valley Pride, as opposed to relying only on volunteers, which is challenging, because volunteers change frequently year to year. And this gives the event more stability. Also, we've been able to grow the event. The first year after the Pride festival merged with us was a bit of a comedy of errors, in the sense that four days before the event, there was a flood at the Pride venue, the longtime Pride venue. It was to be the 25th anniversary, and we knew that the festival really needed to happen, but the entire park flooded. And we were told by the city that we could not have the event there. And so with four days to go, we redesigned the entire festival, moved it over to the grounds of the Jewish Community Center, where Pride has continued to be today, in Allentown. And put on an amazing festival. The event continued to grow year by year. We added a second stage. We added music performers. We've added the opportunity to have an artist promenade. In 2021, we even added a festival mural. We also prioritize access and inclusion for people with disabilities, by bringing sign language interpreters to the stages, reserving parking and seating in the front of the stages for older adults and people with disabilities, ADA restrooms, large print programs, to really try to make for a more inclusive festival. Because Pride is for everyone, and that's really important to us. I think that there were some skeptics over how it would work at the Jewish Community Center, but it really has worked pretty well to have a large festival. We also increased the faith programs at Pride by bringing them onsite. Because previous to it, when it was at Cedar Beach Park, there wasn't a good location where it could happen onsite. And by moving it to the Jewish Community Center, we're able to use the indoor space in the morning. So we actually brought together an interfaith Pride service that kicks off the day at 10:30. The festival starts at 12. And that has been a great addition to the festival, as well. So really proud of the growth of Lehigh Valley Pride since it merged with us. I should say that the merger itself meant merging two nonprofits different ways of operating. Pride of the Greater Lehigh Valley was a membership organization. Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center is not. So we actually had to have a membership meeting of all the Pride members, who were notified of the vote to merge. We went through a process to do that. MF: In addition to Pride programming, you have arts and cultural programming, and you have gallery programming. But you -- AS: Yeah. I'll talk a little bit about the galleries. So I talked about the library earlier, but our art galleries, for me, have been so exciting and important over the years. Really, the only queer art space in the Lehigh Valley, where that's its mission, is to exhibit and celebrate LGBTQ artists. And we've balanced between local artists and not-so-local artists. And we've brought some exhibits that are museum quality. Mariette Pathy Allen, who is a major photojournalist, who has documented trans communities for decades, kicked off her newest book of photographs of trans people in Southeast Asia from our center with an exhibit here. We've had incredible, incredible exhibits over the years. And it's brought the community together. We've had group art shows. We had one show, for example, Art Against Trump's Misogyny. It was called Nasty Women: Art Against Trump's Misogyny, where artists made artwork responding to Trump calling Hillary Clinton a nasty woman. We also have had exhibits that celebrated Elton John's final tour, which kicked off two blocks from our community center in downtown Allentown at the PPL Center. At the same time, we were having an exhibit here in our galleries of LGBTQ artists that made artwork utilizing Elton John lyrics. And it was called To Sir Elton, With Love. You know, Elton John is unquestionably one of the most high-impact LGBTQ musicians of the last century, and when he was kicking off his final tour in Allentown, we knew that we wanted to give artists in our community a chance to honor what they loved about Elton John, as well. So many different exhibits have happened here in our galleries, and it's been really incredible. MF: You mentioned Trump, through this art gallery exhibit. What was it like to be a community center executive director during that presidential campaign and that presidency? AS: Well, you know, we're a nonpartisan organization, so as all nonpartisan organizations, we don't engage directly in electoral politics. We don't tell people who to vote for. However, the day after Trump was elected, the morning after, when we all woke up to that news, we knew that it was going to be very challenging for our community, not because a Republican was elected president over a Democrat, but because a person who made such challenging comments about diverse communities, LGBTQ people, people of color, Muslims, transgender people in particular, there was a lot of very strong words and rhetoric that was spewn throughout the campaign. And so we wanted to make it clear to our community that we were a safe space for everyone to come and be, but that we would also resist when needed. So that April, April 2017, we hosted an exhibit called The Queer Art of Resistance, LGBTQ artists making art as resistance to Trump's anti-LGBTQ agenda. The next year, we hosted Nasty Women: Art Against Trump's Misogyny. So we gave artists a chance to use the artistic freedom and create a work of art that could be exhibited, that could be part of the resistance. After Charlottesville, we cosponsored a rally in downtown Allentown against the hate that was spewn in Charlottesville. And we were very clear that hate has no home here in the Lehigh Valley, and LGBTQ people stand with other vulnerable and marginalized communities, who were really feeling attacked by the former president. And of course, once Trump issued rules that were going to directly harm LGBTQ people, we took a different approach, which is, we actually filed lawsuits to block three Trump administration rules that would have caused direct harm to LGBTQ people. The first one was the denial of care rule, where Trump's Health and Human Service Department issued a rule, a final rule, that would have invited discrimination from health care providers by saying that health care providers could, essentially, deny care to an LGBTQ person if it violated their moral and religious beliefs. In fact, the rule was so problematic, it didn't even require the health care professional to notify their employer that they were doing so. It didn't require a warm handoff to a different provider. It didn't require a referral to a different provider. It didn't require anything. It was such a harmful rule, designed specifically in a way that would have harmed people living with HIV and transgender people, as well as people who may need abortion care in the future. So we were very concerned about this rule. And in coalition with some other LGBT organizations and a couple doctors, we were a plaintiff in a lawsuit led by Lambda Legal, and were able to block the rule from going into effect. We then filed another lawsuit, again with pro bono counsel from Lambda Legal -- pro bono counsel from Lambda Legal is consistent with all three of the cases. And in the second case, the Trump administration's HHS promulgated a rule that would have removed Section 1557 of the Affordable Care Act, which is the section that provides for nondiscrimination in health care, through both insurance and health care providers. And it mandates nondiscrimination. And the removal of the nondiscrimination language specific to our community would really put LGBTQ+ people at risk. So we also filed a suit to block the removal of 1557 from going into effect, and again, we were successful. And then at the very end of the Trump administration, the former president, kind of, went off on a different tangent, and decided he wanted to ban diversity training for federal contractors and grantees. And so we filed suit, again with Lambda Legal as pro bono counsel, to block what we considered to be a racist and sexist ban on diversity training. As an organization that provides diversity training to organizations that receive federal funds, it would have had a direct impact on our budget and our ability to provide trainings to school districts, for example, possibly to state government agencies, certainly to some corporations and nonprofits. Anyone receiving federal funds would not have been able to receive diversity training. And there were specific words you weren't allowed to say in trainings. So we were able to successfully block that rule from also going into effect. I'm really proud that throughout the Trump administration, Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center stood up and stood strong to stand up for our community and to block these harmful rules from going into effect. And we wouldn't have been able to do it without pro bono counsel at Lambda Legal. Also, it was a lot of work to be a plaintiff in these cases. But we were part of history in protecting our community from some of the direct harm that the administration tried to inflict. MF: There's another big thing happening during the Trump administration, which is COVID-19. AS: Yeah. MF: So here you have these three lawsuits, but you also have the global pandemic. How were you navigating in that time? AS: Well, nobody, including me, could have predicted the pandemic that has now been ongoing for -- we've just entered the third year [laughs] of the ongoing pandemic. That's, certainly in my lifetime, unprecedented. At the start of the pandemic, like every other LGBT center, like every other nonprofit, it was just about navigating uncertainty. It was about, we don't know what's to come, but we have to adapt quickly. So in an effort to keep our community safe as well as our staff, we announced that staff would be working from home. We were shutting down our building. It was a few days before the governor made this decision for the whole state in March 2020. At the time, we had 10 staff. And so we thought it would be for nine weeks. The governor, his shutdown was, I believe, for four or five weeks. Our shutdown, which was before the governor did that, was nine weeks. Obviously, it lasted a little longer [laughs] than that. But at the time, we were doing the best we could with the information we had. Right? And it was certainly a scary time. We had to very quickly pivot to new technology. We pivoted almost all programs to virtual within a matter of two weeks. We were able to maintain almost all staff positions. We did end up receiving a paycheck protection loan, a PPP loan, that allowed us to maintain staffing for a longer period of time. But we had a lot of technology expenses right away to be able to pivot to virtual programs. And these were unbudgeted, because the pandemic really came about pretty quickly, at least in the scope of how nonprofits budget out a year in advance. It wasn't something that we would have known to plan for the previous November, you know, to plan for, Oh, we need enterprise Zoom licenses, and we need to change -- we needed to get DocuSign for our entire organization so that we could sign invoices and grant contracts. And we needed to have Slack, so that we could do interoffice communication. And it was both learning how to be a virtual office and learning how to support our community and care for our community. At the beginning of the pandemic, we called most of our donors, just to check in and ask how they were during the time of uncertainty. We weren't asking them for money at that time. We also had to call our funders, and say, We have to change the grant that we said that we would do, because we can't do any in-person outreach right now, or we can't do this thing in person. We need to shift how we're doing this. And luckily, every one of our funders stood by us and said, We understand. It's unprecedented times. Just let us know what changes need to be made. And we made them all. They were all reasonable changes given the uncertainty. In addition to what we were doing directly for our community in terms of programs, and in terms of what we were doing to manage staff transition to a virtual office, we were also directly engaged in advocacy from the very beginning. In March 2020, the CDC, under the Trump administration, put out a directive requiring all states to collect demographic data with regard to race, ethnicity, age, and gender. They did not include sexual orientation or gender identity. In April 2020, we sent -- we organized with the National LGBT Cancer Network, and 26 organizations joined us -- a letter to then-Pennsylvania Secretary of Health Dr. Rachel Levine, asking that Pennsylvania be the first state to mandate collection of sexual orientation and gender identity data for COVID infection, mortality, and hospitalization. One month later to the day, we were able to get Pennsylvania to collect COVID-19 infection data. And then we continued advocacy. And the journey of health advocacy throughout the pandemic for our organization was that every six weeks, it felt like we were starting from scratch. Every six weeks, there was a totally new process that didn't exist six weeks ago. And somehow, LGBT people were left out again. So we had to start over again when it came to the contact tracing process, to get LGBT demographic data into Sara Alert, which is used for contact tracing, and into the COVID Alert App Pennsylvania. And we then had to train all the contact tracers. We were able to train all of Pennsylvania Department of Health, Erie County Department of Health, Philadelphia Department of Health, and Allentown Health Bureau's contact tracers on how to ask LGBTQ questions. We ended up working on the vaccine distribution plan and provided public comment, signed on by many other LGBT organizations across the state, to prioritize people living with HIV in Phase 1A, the early days of the COVID vaccination schedule. In fact, our public comment was accepted in January, at a really good time, because we were able to ensure that people living with HIV could get their vaccines in that 1A period, right when vaccines were being made available to non-health care workers. But really, it was a journey of health activism through that time, as well. And in terms of our programs, I mean, we had to continuously pivot. So I didn't want to be canceling in-person programs too far out, because we kept being told, Oh, it's just a couple more weeks. Oh, it's just a couple more months. So we had to make decisions continuously. And moving Lehigh Valley Pride to a virtual Pride for the first time in its history was a heart-wrenching decision, but it would not have been possible to have an in-person Pride in 2020. So we ended up with a televised Pride festival on RCN, a star-studded event. Celebrities that participated included Michelle Visage, Carson Kressley, RuPaul Drag Racers like Silky Nutmeg Ganache, Jujubee. We had Peter Paige from Queer as Folk. We had Theo Germaine from The Politician. We had Holly Near, you know, iconic musician Holly Near. We had a whole bunch of really amazing folks. We had professional athletes, like Kurtis Gabriel. We had a really tremendous virtual Pride festival. But it wasn't the same as in-person Pride. So it was as good as it could have possibly been for our community, but it was not the same as an in-person Pride festival. And we continued to pivot. We produced a virtual queer novel miniseries on our Facebook that ran as Facebook Live events, where we had, instead of in-person author talks, we had author talks on Facebook Live. We tried to curate content for our community to keep our community connected through a period of quarantine and uncertainty. And we started delivering healthy food packages to the youth program participants that we were serving, because they couldn't come here, so we brought stuff there. As a resource to our community, we actually developed a subpage on our website for LGBT-specific COVID-19 information. We wrote guidances for the city of Allentown, county of Erie, Montgomery County, and the state of Pennsylvania about safer sex during the pandemic. These were published guidances by our governments, and that was really important. We continuously did work throughout the pandemic to ensure that LGBTQ people had the information to make risk-aware decisions, that they had the access to community through virtual means, and that our staff had jobs to continue to do the essential work for our community. (break in video) AS: Good? Okay. MF: I would say also during this time, you were moving into publishing. And I know this is, sort of, adjacent to the community center, but you're publishing on public health, editing collections. You have another book coming out soon. Could you talk a little bit about how that work as an author, as an editor, is connected to your work with the center, or just a little bit about your publication? AS: Yeah. So after we did our first Needs Assessment in 2015, I became very passionate about LGBTQ barriers to care and access to care. When it comes to accessing, the unmet dream of health equity, defined by the US government, is the attainment of the highest quality of health for all people. That's the definition from Healthy People 2020. LGBTQ people don't have that. So I actually went and enrolled in a graduate certificate program at George Washington University in LGBT health policy and practice. And that program really was very helpful in getting me to think more about the role that our center could play as a community-based organization. But also during that time, I struggled to find any published works written by LGBTQ people that told stories in our own voices about the health care experiences that we had. There was writing by researchers, and writing by health care providers, but there wasn't really writing by actual LGBTQ people telling our own stories. Around the same time, I had a negative experience with a local dermatologist. I went in for a skin cancer screening, a baseline screening, and at every step of the way, I just felt that the care that was being provided wasn't care to patients like me. And I didn't go back for the follow up that the dermatologist recommended. And it took me about a month, but I mustered up the courage and made an appointment with a new dermatologist in Bucks County. It was about an hour away in New Hope. And I received the care that I needed there. But that was a really big transitional moment, as well, that even as a full-time advocate and activist for LGBTQ people, I could even have a negative experience with a doctor. And so I ended up collecting other people's stories. I talked to some friends and some colleagues who had other challenging experiences accessing the care that their bodies need. And I ended up compiling a book, which -- I like to say curating a book. It's an edited anthology called Bodies and Barriers: Queer Activists on Health. And it collects the stories of 26 queer and trans people from around the world, telling our stories about the health care challenges that we've experienced. And the book was published March 2020, right at the start of the pandemic. But I was able to do some prelaunch events in January, which I was glad to be able to do. My last event, right before the pandemic shut everything down, was the Lehigh Valley TEDxLehighRiver, where they had a local authors expo, and I was able to be there and talk to some Lehigh Valley folks. But the book actually was launched at the Creating Change Conference in Dallas, Texas, in January 2020. And I did book events in DC, and San Francisco, and Oakland, and a big event here in the Bethlehem Area Public Library. But then the pandemic hit and changed the course of what a book launch was going to look like. The book, though, is also something that continues to evolve, in terms of how we think about improving care. So it's been a book that health care providers have been able to read to understand patient needs. It's been a book that has been cited by researchers, to be able to think about some of the broader societal shifts that are needed in terms of public health and access to care. And it's been a book that's been utilized by LGBTQ community members to maybe consider how to speak up to their doctors and ask for the care that their bodies need. So it's something I'm really proud of. The book has done quite well, actually, and I have another book called Crisis and Care: Queer Activist Responses to a Global Pandemic, that is coming out in June 2022, that's about how LGBTQ people responded to the COVID-19 pandemic. It's not about COVID-19 as a virus. It's not about how the government responded, or lack thereof. It's not about Dr. Fauci. It's not about Admiral Levine. It's about how queer people responded to a crisis with care, how we cared for our community in a moment of crisis, and what we can learn from this pandemic to move forward in our world. And I do outline how Bradbury-Sullivan Center led the way as a health advocate in Pennsylvania during the first year of the pandemic. MF: I can't wait to see that book. I just want to say that. And it's recorded. I can't wait to buy that. Beyond publishing those two, curating those two collections, one of which will be out soon, is Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center participating in other kinds of publications, research publications, or -- AS: Yeah. So something that's, kind of, unique to Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center is our work to make contributions to the literature more broadly. So we actually conduct original research. We're so lucky to have a data and evaluation department. We present the results of our programs at state and national conferences, for example, American Public Health Association, Society for Public Health Educators. That's just two examples. And we have also worked to try to publish some of the results from our Needs Assessment, or programmatic results from our archive, or from some of our health programs, in either peer-reviewed or other academic journals. That really allows us to demonstrate the role that Bradbury-Sullivan Center plays, and more broadly, the role that LGBT community centers play in all communities, because the work that we do here is not so dissimilar from other communities. And so our contribution to the literature, I think, has been really important. And from a nonacademic standpoint, we've also been fairly active in media advocacy, to generate op-eds and letters to the editor on key issues that our community really needs to be concerned about, from ending the harmful practice of conversion therapy -- and our organization has led that. After Trump took office, actually, when it was looking like the Trump administration may even publicly fund conversion therapy, because Tom Price, his first HHS secretary, Betsy DeVos, his education secretary, and Mike Pence, his vice president, all publicly supported conversion therapy. We quickly worked with the National Center for Lesbian Rights to draft legislation that we were able to encourage the cities of Allentown, Bethlehem, and Reading to adopt. And that ended the legal practice of conversion therapy by health care professionals against minors here in these three cities. You know, but basically, we will generate op-eds on issues like conversion therapy or nondiscrimination, or other issues, as well. Our team here has constantly -- I've encouraged staff members to consider their CV, to submit proposals to conferences, to consider writing to get published, because it helps them, but it also really helps the organization be the leader that we know we are. MF: You mentioned the bans on conversion therapy, and I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit more about how that worked in Bethlehem, in Allentown, and Easton. Can you just describe that a bit more, what that process was like once you had the legislation drafted? AS: So National Center for Lesbian Rights drafted the legislation, and shared it with local elected officials in our community. We built a strong coalition, though. So our role was that we were doing public education and awareness in support of ending conversion therapy in our communities. So for example, we partnered with KidsPeace, which is a mental health hospital here in the Lehigh Valley, who shared in public meetings that their operating rules don't allow conversion therapy for their clinicians. The director of the Allentown Health Bureau spoke out, saying that she had talked to local pediatricians, who have confirmed that they have seen the harms of conversion therapy in our community from their patients. So we mobilized our community, is really the role that we played, as grassroots organizing. And we were able to see these three laws passed very quickly in each municipality. MF: Did they happen simultaneously in each municipality? AS: No. It started with Allentown, and then Reading, and then Bethlehem, I believe. It was definitely Allentown first. MF: Yeah, Bethlehem was a little slow. AS: Well, Bethlehem happened quickly. It was our timeline. We're limited in terms of our resources, so we started in Allentown, and then we either went to Bethlehem or Reading next, and then the third one. And the Reading ordinance we did in partnership with the Reading LGBT community center. MF: That's a lot happening, COVID, (laughs) suing an administration, publishing books, working on the bans against conversion therapy. Was there anything else happening in that time period (laughs) that you could load onto your plate? AS: The reality is that there's always been so much happening. We are a fast-growing, rapidly-growing, growth-minded organization, and we have been since day one. And the result of that is that we are able to always do more for our community than we could the previous year. The other result of that is that there's a lot going on. We've built a complex organization here, in the sense that we're running a community archive, but we're also doing public health programs. We're running youth programs and also running supportive services for adults in our community. We have professional art galleries, and we're also trying to figure out a lending library system. So there's a lot going on in our organization. We're running a huge Pride festival. All of these things are happening, kind of, throughout the year at the same time. And that's why it's been so important that we've been able to create a really amazing team here. MF: Well, I want to ask a question about the archives, because we haven't talked about that yet, and you really, from the beginning, were focusing also on archival collection when you were envisioning the center and when it was opening. So could I ask about that? AS: Yeah. MF: Why did you [overlapping dialogue ; inaudible] -- AS: It was one of the first programs of the center, actually. So very early on, I approached Tina Hertel, the library director of Muhlenberg College, and we set up a meeting with her, and with Susan Falciani Maldonado, special collections archivist. And the meeting was really -- we had some stuff already. There was stuff in Liz and Trish's basement. I had some stuff in my house. And we didn't want to be holding onto it. And we also knew that there was a lot of stuff in the community. We looked at similar archives in central Pennsylvania and Philadelphia. But something that was really important to me was community ownership. So our agreement with Muhlenberg is the only one we're aware of in the country where an LGBT center maintains ownership of the archival materials, and it's professionally housed and preserved at a university library. And Muhlenberg was willing to do that with us. And it's been an incredible partnership. But it started with, we had very specific things. We had all the Gaydar magazines. Liz had the records from the voter referendum that tried to repeal nondiscrimination in Allentown. I had a whole bunch of stuff from my time with Equality PA. We had some random things. But we knew that we also needed to start a collection and then let it grow, and that's really what's happened. And the archive today has, you know, oral history collection. It has a document collection. When our gay bars closed, when Candida's and Diamonz closed, we were able to get memorabilia. When Stonewall closed, we got memorabilia, and we also did a project called the Stonewall Memories Project, where people could submit their memories about their time at Stonewall. Memory collection as a form of archival work is really important. But, you know, I'm not an archivist, just like I'm not a health care provider. And so my role was really to think creatively about how we can best support our community today and also in the future. And one historian that we were so lucky to bring here to Bradbury-Sullivan to do a book talk, actually, in our library, was Hugh Ryan, who wrote When Brooklyn Was Queer. And in that book, Hugh Ryan says, "Without a past, we don't have a future." And I think that's why local community-based archives are so important. It gives us access to our community's past, so that way, we can collectively consider what the future needs of our community are. MF: The center does so much educational programming, training, arts and culture, galleries, reading groups, film series, archival collection, public health. You're involved in lawsuits when needed to protect our community. Was that part of the original vision that we started with today? Did you think, when you were starting -- AS: We have far exceeded the original vision. I mean, the original vision was getting a physical space. We said we were going to revolutionize the programs and services available to the LGBT community. That's language we used in 2014. I think we have absolutely done that. And that does not mean that there's not more that's needed. Absolutely. There is always more we can do for our community. Our current director of development, Matt Easterwood, likes to say, "More money, more mission." So as Bradbury-Sullivan Center continues to grow, more can be done for the community at large. But, you know, part of my decision to move on from Bradbury-Sullivan Center is because I feel like sometimes I can be clouded by my original vision. And I think leadership changes are good over time. And there's an opportunity for new ideas, for new leadership that comes with different expertise, different backgrounds, different passions. And actually, I think that's good for organizations over time. We have absolutely grown past my wildest dreams. I didn't say at the beginning, but before starting the center, when I was in my first year at Muhlenberg College as a student, I remember asking if there was an LGBT center, and there wasn't. And I was really wanting it. I was looking for ways to access community, and I couldn't find it. And we have that now. So opening the center was really a dream fulfilled, a dream realized, and I think not just for me, but for a collective community. And now it's time for new leadership to chart the next part of that journey. And I'm really excited to continue to see the organization thrive. I also know that we have an amazing team here of staff members, board members, community members, volunteers, program participants, people who are just so dedicated to seeing this organization continue to thrive, that I feel good about leaving, because I feel like the organization is in good hands. MF: Well, we're right about at the end. You ended with this lovely statement about, you know, it will continue with new leadership and wonderful people that are still here. And it leads me to, maybe, a final question or two. Do you want to talk about the people that have really made this organization into this incredible support for our community? AS: Yeah. Why don't you pause for a minute and give me a minute to think about that? AS: Throughout the journey of opening the center, there's been so many people who have been part of that journey, and there's no way I could possibly name every single person. But I do want to share some names of folks that were critical to the start, the opening, and the growth of the center over time. So from the very beginning, Liz Bradbury and Patricia Sullivan, and Liz Kleintop, original board members of Pennsylvania Diversity Network, at the time, that really were willing to go with me on this journey. We had a community center creation committee that also included people like Basilio Bonilla, and Patrick Fligge, and Kari Kirchgessner, now Kari Alvaro. We had volunteers like Don Kohn, who was our design team chair, and brought together a design team of pro bono folks willing to work with us to try to get into that original building. Robert Sandoval was an architect who did all of the architectural work pro bono for that first building that we ended up not taking. Rob Ritter. Rob Ritter was our realtor who helped us to get into this space. We had pro bono lawyers at the beginning, like Tim Brennan and Mike Recchiuti, who helped with the real estate transaction and the zoning needed for us to get into the space. Hundreds of volunteers who -- I cannot name all the volunteers. But I would say we had specific volunteer groups from IBEW Local 375, to Air Products and Olympus, to Habitat for Humanity and Home Depot. I mean, really all corners, right? Churches and synagogues. So many groups came together. We had a coven who came, and also we have humanists, and people of all religions and none that were helping us to get into this space. Over time, though, in this organization, as we continued to grow, yeah, there's absolutely been some really pivotal folks. Judy Ochs was the director of the Division of Tobacco Prevention and Control, and she really took us under her wing and championed us, and gave us the infrastructure that we have today. Dr. Scout of the National LGBT Cancer Network taught me so much that let us work with government funders. Other community center partners like Denise Spivak at CenterLink, who has been with, really, since day one. One of the first calls I made was to her, saying I wanted to start the center. Chris Bartlett in Philadelphia at the William Way LGBT Center, who called me right after he heard that we were opening, and gave me some incredible advice right from day one. Louie Marvin, who was at the Central Pennsylvania LGBT Center at the time, was also super supportive. And then, you know, as we continued to grow, folks like Rob Hopkins and Shawn Bausher, who were with Pride of the Greater Lehigh Valley, were instrumental not only in supporting the start of the center, but then in having Pride merge in with the center. The two of them, as well as Mark Stanziola, who was very supportive as well. Rob and Shawn, though, were really the leaders of Pride who were really pushing for the merger to happen. And they really made that happen. Some of our early board members -- Barb Baus. Barb Baus was an incredible leader in this organization at a time when we were just getting into the building. And then Liz Kleintop was board chair after her. And as the organization continued to grow, so many more people got involved. We have so many current staff, board members, community members. And there are some highlights of visitors, special visitors, too, to the center. Governor Wolf signed a bill into law here in our first year. Former Auditor General Eugene DePasquale has visited our building. Admiral Rachel Levine. Senator Casey came and took a tour of our building. Former Congressman Charlie Dent. You know, we've had a lot of wonderful visitors and guests over time. And that's been part of, also, building credibility in our community. People are really seeing that what we were doing was really important here. We've hosted public hearings here for the Pennsylvania Human Relations Commission, for example. We had a town hall here with the former Pennsylvania Secretary of Aging, Teresa Osborne. There's been some just incredible, incredible moments over the years here at the center. MF: We're at the end, but is there anything that we didn't talk about today that you just think, Mary, we've got to talk about this, I really wanted to address this today? AS: I think I'm all set. MF: Okay. I just want to say at the end of this interview that I think everyone here is wishing you well in California, and you are beloved by so many of us. And I know you won't be a stranger. I'm so glad you did this interview today. Thank you very much. AS: Thank you. Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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01:24:43
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Adrian Shanker, Part 2, March 4, 2022
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Adrian Shanker recounts the inception of the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the work it does to continue to serve the LGBTQ+ community in the Lehigh Valley and Pennsylvania as a whole.
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LGBT-30
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2022-03-04
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Stories of Lehigh Valley LGBTQ+ Community Members (2022 - )
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Nadia Butler
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Aoife Ward
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5.4 May 7, 2022 Aoife Ward, May 7, 2022 LGBT-33 1:25:03 LVLGBT-2022 Stories of Lehigh Valley LGBTQ+ Community Members (2022 - ) Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository Support for the collection of this interview was provided by the American Council of Learned Societies (ACLS). trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Aoife Ward Nadia Butler video/mp4 Aoife Ward Oral History Combined MOV File.mov 1.0:|25(6)|60(18)|81(11)|102(14)|127(13)|146(6)|171(8)|192(13)|213(6)|234(10)|255(11)|274(15)|297(6)|316(9)|335(16)|358(7)|381(14)|400(4)|421(4)|442(12)|463(7)|480(16)|499(6)|518(5)|543(12)|568(7)|589(9)|614(6)|637(13)|660(8)|679(7)|702(4)|721(8)|744(8)|765(7)|788(3)|809(13)|830(11)|853(7)|876(3)|895(6)|920(2)|943(14)|962(3)|985(4)|1008(3)|1031(4)|1054(10)|1073(10)|1098(4)|1117(15)|1140(10)|1163(4)|1182(8)|1203(7)|1226(12)|1247(15)|1266(12)|1289(5)|1312(7)|1331(13)|1350(7)|1373(6)|1394(5)|1415(15)|1438(8)|1457(6)|1476(4)|1497(8)|1518(11)|1543(4)|1566(5)|1591(3)|1614(3)|1639(2)|1662(16)|1687(12)|1708(6)|1731(8)|1750(2)|1775(5)|1798(2)|1813(9)|1838(7)|1877(3)|1878(2) 0 https://youtu.be/UOcm4IeVU4k YouTube video English 8 Interview Introductions NADIA BUTLER: And we are live. My name is Nadia Butler, and I am here today with Aoife Ward, to talk about her life and experiences and LGBT organizations in the Lehigh Valley, as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. Our project has funding from the ACLS. We are meeting on location today on May 7th, 2022. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start, can you please state your full name and spell it for me? 
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 ; AOIFE WARD: Certainly it's Aoife Maeve Ward. It's spelled A-O-I-F-E. The middle name, Maeve, M-A-E-V-E, Ward, W-A-R-D.
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 ; NB: Will you please share your birthdate?
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 ; AW: It's October 11, 1976.
 ; 0 102 Childhood & ; Early Upbringing NB: To begin, would you start by telling us about the early years of your life? Could you describe your childhood for us, including where you were born?
 ; 
 ; AW: Sure, so I was born in a hospital in Brooklyn and raised in Long Island, New York. Both my parents were Irish immigrants. My father was an investment banker from Dublin originally. Trained as a veterinarian, but walked in, basically got a job on Wall Street one summer and came back and started his version of the American Dream. My mother was from a farming family outside of Dublin, outside of Wicklow. Seven sisters, her grandmother was an amazing woman who raised them all on her own on a small farm. And also fought in the Irish revolution. So, interesting family history. 0 359 Exploring Sexuality & ; Gender Identity AW: By the time I was out of high school, I had already kind of been secretly visiting the village and going downtown to Kelsey. And at a young age, trying to see where I would fit in on a gay scene if it would happen. No real boyfriends. Then I had worked through high school, so I ended up -- since I have a European citizenship as well as US citizenship, I had a year in Spain, which my father helped fund, which was an amazing privilege to have. Learn the Spanish language, learn the culture. And it was especially interesting because sexuality was a big deal in restoring my gender identity. But for the most part, they were kind of experiencing a revolution as their dictator Francisco Franco had finally passed. And they were allowed to become their own country really without a dictator. 0 504 Marriage & ; Trauma Healing AW: So that's pretty much the early part into my teens, I'm 45 years old. So I've had a lot of good life experiences, I think. I hope that answers your question. But I've always put it in the frame of, I've transitioned multiple lives at times in my life. I've transitioned out of the fear that there's always going to be violence and things around me. I still continue to do that. I ended up marrying a woman for about 12 years.
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 ; Working in a medical device corporation, playing in bands, owning a home, during the other American Dream, the heterosexual American Dream. And as a bisexual, I guess throughout my life, my gender identity was always on the back burner. Fitting in was always a priority. Feeling safe was always a priority that I couldn't tell people about. Cross dressing the whole time in private, afraid not knowing how people would take it or my family. 0 796 Time Spent with Mother NB: We will. One of the things you mentioned was your mother and it sounded like you were very close to her.
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 ; AW: Yes, yeah, definitely. She was definitely an incredible force in both me and my sister's life. Very intelligent, a lover of nature, having grown up on farm and animals. Also a fair amount of theatrical when she needed to be, a fair amount of sarcasm and humor. But she was living in a time in society where, she still couldn't have a credit card in the 80s. Her divorce was the biggest shame to bring on any family. Even from my grandmother, who had gone through similar things. 0 1032 Relationship with Religion NB: Something else you've mentioned a few times is kind of the place of faith in your childhood. Would you be willing to talk a little bit about what it was like for you to grow up as a young closeted transwoman during the 70s and 80s and how the Catholic Church and the kinds of impact it had on you and your sister?
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 ; AW: Yeah certainly. Well, yeah, it was an interesting time, there was so much going on with the AIDS crisis that even at 10 years old I was aware of it. Luckily my sister is a journalist. So even after getting out of la la land of Long Island, she was fiercely looking for information almost the same way she had to look for information in the home to see how to help ourselves. Total researcher. My sister just always 20 questions everything that's going on in your life and it's lovely though because you get to know it's out of the place of concern. But growing up in there and also being left in Ireland with an auntie and having my grandmother on my father's side, take me to 3 hour masses where it's hellfire and brimstone and God is coming down on the sexual. In the news, God is coming down the homosexuals. Transgender wasn't even really talked about, I didn't even know what transgender was until maybe eight years ago. So, the wording of things in the media did end the loss of my mother. 0 1261 Feelings on the AIDS Crisis / Finding Comunity AW: But then when I finally, without my mother, grew up trying to understand my femininity. It was a different time yet again when I was of age, the AIDS crisis was still the most terrifying thing and the thought of having a partner or possibly as a transfem from passing on the virus just I cut that out of my life because it was just so terrifying. 
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 ; Every boyfriend you're just like, oh I'm gonna test it again, it's just so much fear. And really, I was seeing a real separation of, after the death of a lot of great leaders, just the kind of the death of the social scene, the queer social scene, the closing of clubs. Obviously, a lot of clubs I couldn't go to, we're still going on, it was really more everyone, but those local spaces were gone down in New Brunswick. 0 1832 Journey to Transition / Finding Eastern PA Trans Equity NB: Yeah. So, can you talk for us a little bit about your transition and coming into your womanhood? Can you talk about -- was there a single event which was kind of a catalyst for that? Was it multiple things?
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 ; AW: Well, it had been coming up quite a bit. And leading up to my father's death about five years ago, I was already going through a divorce. I was facing a layoff from a good company. I was gonna be selling my house because of the divorce. And I was having major mental health stuff. My father had dementia for a number of years, and he was kind of, that voice, that internal voice sort of internalized homophobia, internalized transphobia. 
 ; 0 2394 Early Years of Transition NB: When it came to kind of starting the process of transition -- you've talked a lot about how Eastern PA a few years after starting transition became really important for you and your survival. In those early years, how did you go about accessing things like hormones, medical care, clothing when you were Ubering and living out of your car? Do you mind talking about that a little bit?
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 ; AW: Sure, yeah. Yeah, that was particularly rough because I did not have insurance for a good period of time. I had about a 5-month severance from Johnson and Johnson where I continued to have medical care. I was laid off around my birthday that year which is also around when my father died. A few months later in December, he died. So, my birthday is October, so I really started on my birthday, HRT at, it was called the Proud Health Center in Somerset, New Jersey which it really had been open only a little bit. But it was part of a family practice that was LGBTQ friendly from Robert Wood Johnson. 0 2725 Connections with Trans Women of Color in New Brunswick / Community Advocacy NB: You mentioned a community of Latina trans women in New Brunswick.
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 ; AW: Sure.
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 ; NB: Can you kind of talk about what they taught you and what you learned from that?
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 ; AW: Sure. Well, I actually forgot about the first trans woman I met in New Brunswick used to deliver my film from Epson film -- Fujifilm, sorry. And she was wonderful transfem, big lady, just really hysterical Latina woman, and we always cracked up about whatever is going on with my boyfriends, with whoever she was dating. But she would kind of clue me into what some of the girls that would come into the shop to get either passport photos or just a photo to send home or to a partner of how good they look. 0 3229 Becoming Comfortable in Trans Identity NB: What do you think it took for you to get to that place of being able to openly and freely discussing your identity, not just with other transfems and trans women, but just with people in generally.
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 ; AW: It's a really good question, I mean through all the previous stuff I was talking about with my mental health and stuff, that was certainly the most terrifying part, just the fear of violence, I think. Having a friend in that group, having younger people actually who I worked with, just being supportive, like it's cool. Like it being no big deal. Because still I think -- what I point out to a lot of people is that everybody has a bit of internalized transphobia, especially trans folks. At some point in your transition, there's just this overpowering fear that you're gonna destroy your life and because that's what society tells us. 0 3434 Relationship to the Lehigh Valley Community NB: Yeah. You mentioned feeling safe in the Lehigh Valley. Can you talk a little bit about what it was for you to kind of come into that sense of safety?
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 ; AW: Sure. It's honestly only been the past year. So, I've been here maybe 3 or 4 years but it's more really about the country's political environment, not so much about the Valley. But when you're in a new place, like when I was in Spain or all the moving I did throughout my childhood, every new place kind of comes with a whole new set of where am I, what is going on? Am I safe here? 0 3791 Spirituality NB: I'm curious, you mentioned at the start of the interview that Catholicism, was quite harmful for you in terms of growing up during the AIDS crisis. And seeing the Catholic church is kind of blatant homophobia. I'm curious as you've gotten older, have you ever returned to faith. Is it something that has become important to you?
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 ; AW: So, oddly enough, I mean I think a lot of children just understanding childhood development and stuff. My ex was actually once an art teacher, so we had a lot of discussions about that type of thing, and it's nice to watch and understand, like to see almost how I was learning and the things that my mom was doing more along those lines. Sorry, what was the question again? I have a really like -- I always have to kind of like think things through. 0 4116 Professional Work AW: I'm not sure. Well I guess it's interesting, you know the company I’m at now the enterprise resource group stuff they're doing – it’s like their first year doing it. So that's great to see companies still starting to embrace this, I'm probably their only trans employee. I would love in the work that I'm doing with them as they're starting out to get some better speakers into these businesses because we are a capitalist democracy. Business runs a lot of things including public opinion sometimes.
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 ; And the fact that, you really can't decide we're not going to do business with a whole group of people or something and the corporations understand this now. While the capitalist mindset is pretty cutthroat, can have a lot of ills in society, I think that seeing them starting to work towards the betterment of marginalized communities is just amazing. I want to see more of it, and I want to be a part of it. 0 4371 Impact of Music on Life NB: Something that's been recurring throughout our conversation I've noticed is the role of music and kind of creative endeavors in sustaining you. When do you think that started? 
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 ; AW: God, I mean, that's definitely at age five. My mother was great at encouraging that as well as my sister, and you know, in ways my father even would do magic tricks or whatever, whatever it took to just kind of get through the sad part and I think it is actually culturally an Irish trait like you just laugh through everything. 0 4525 Time in Spain NB: So we are nearing the end of our time. But on the note of culture, I wanted to circle back, and to ask you about your time in Spain?
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 ; AW: Sure, sure.
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 ; NB: And what that was like, what it was like for you as a young person to kind of be abroad as so much was happening in the 90s? 
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 ; AW: Sure, yeah, I mean, right out of high school and doing Spain was just the best experience of my life. A lot of family members like, why did you come back? [laughs] Which I thought was funny. I was like, cause I was just gonna be broke if I stayed out there. [laughs] They were still kind of bringing their economy back together at that time in Spain. 0 4778 Outlook on the Future NB: Are you optimistic about the future? 
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 ; AW: A little scared certainly. I just think that coming at least from the background of my grandmother and the revolution and civil war there -- she was in jail at 14 by the Irish. There's actually a book written about it by my uncle Thomas. But, to know that somebody can be that resilient to get through things like that, and then go on and continue to raise a family, is so inspiring, and just kind of fills your heart. 
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 ; At least for me with a connection to that, to knowing enough about myself that given the time and the need to protect members of my community in whatever, if I can, I'm always going to be doing that no matter what, no matter what. It's very easy when life is constantly pressuring you on all sides, especially in the new media landscape, to feel like the other shoe is gonna drop tomorrow. 0 4965 Closing Remarks NB: [laughs] We shall see indeed. So, we have about four minutes left. Is there anything you would like to add that we haven't touched on? 
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 ; AW: I've covered a lot. [laughs] Gosh, I mean, I don't really think so. I just love seeing my community grow and expand. I'm looking forward to seeing the ways that we all can continue to support each other and feel supported. But also, we've all been giving each other a lot of space, and we've needed it. Everyone is needed to heal right now. This isn't just trans people, this is the whole country. 0 MovingImage Aoife Ward describes her early upbringing, transition, finding transgender community in New Brunswick and the Lehigh Valley, and her outlook on the future. INTERVIEW WITH AOIFE WARD MAY 7, 2022 NADIA BUTLER: And we are live. My name is Nadia Butler, and I am here today with Aoife Ward, to talk about her life and experiences and LGBT organizations in the Lehigh Valley, as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. Our project has funding from the ACLS. We are meeting on location today on May 7th, 2022. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start, can you please state your full name and spell it for me? AOIFE WARD: Certainly it's Aoife Maeve Ward. It's spelled A-O-I-F-E. The middle name, Maeve, M-A-E-V-E, Ward, W-A-R-D. NB: Will you please share your birthdate? AW: It's October 11, 1976. NB: Do you consent to this interview today? AW: I do consent to this interview. NB: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized and made publicly available online and searchable formats? AW: Absolutely. NB: Do you consent to the LGBT archive using your interview for educational purposes and other formats, including films, articles, websites, presentations, and other formats? AW: Absolutely, yeah. NB: Do you understand that you will have 30 days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review the interview, identify any parts you would like to delete and or withdraw the interview from the project? AW: Yes I do. Excellent. Well then, let's start. AW: Okay. NB: To begin, would you start by telling us about the early years of your life? Could you describe your childhood for us, including where you were born? AW: Sure, so I was born in a hospital in Brooklyn and raised in Long Island, New York. Both my parents were Irish immigrants. My father was an investment banker from Dublin originally. Trained as a veterinarian, but walked in, basically got a job on Wall Street one summer and came back and started his version of the American Dream. My mother was from a farming family outside of Dublin, outside of Wicklow. Seven sisters, her grandmother was an amazing woman who raised them all on her own on a small farm. And also fought in the Irish revolution. So, interesting family history. My mother was a nurse in the U.S. And they raised me and my sister Margaret, who is eight years older in Long Island. My mother died later when I was nine. I knew I was transgender at about four years old. But unfortunately, there was a lengthy divorce, lot of abuse in the home, a lot of kind of, what do you call it? What was going on inside the home did not reflect the outward appearance of this perfect American family starting to live in their American Dream. So my only times to express my gender was when it was just me and my mom. And then when dad got home, that was all cut off or if my grandma caught me. So, my gender was expressed very much in my private time with my mother and my private time with myself. And there wasn't much time or availability to express my emotions and my needs in my home. Especially in Long Island in that -- those years because it would have been the early 80's. So, in '85, my mother finally died after a lengthy divorce, a lot happens in that time frame. A lot of people in and out of my home, lawyers, police, until we finally kind of got away from my father. Well when she died, my father ended up raising me and my sister for about a year, but she was at high school age, so she ended up kind of being kicked out of the house. And then he raised me as a single father, nannies and so forth, and you know, he had money, so he was able to do things, but he didn't really have time for a child or the patience. And again, so my gender identity was completely suppressed. In later life, around high school and middle school when I was finally outside of Catholic school systems, because I was being raised Irish Catholic, I got more time to think about and express my gender identity throughout high school, when my father remarried and that was, by then I was in Ridgewood, New Jersey. And that was good. Also a great deal of bullying and other things and trying to understand myself in that current landscape where homosexuality was so frowned upon. But it was still in the 80s and 90s, it was all on television, which I usually didn't have access to. Well, cable television, like MTV and whatnot, but you get a peek of what your life could be like at those ages, and you hope that you can express it one day. My father though, in a verbally abusive individual with me mainly, you know, threats of military school and that type of thing, was somewhat more understanding in the aspect of me needing to understand my culture, European culture, though not necessarily American culture. So, I did get chances to visit Ireland to stay with family and get away from him [laughs]. By the time I was out of high school, I had already kind of been secretly visiting the village and going downtown to Kelsey. And at a young age, trying to see where I would fit in on a gay scene if it would happen. No real boyfriends. Then I had worked through high school, so I ended up -- since I have a European citizenship as well as US citizenship, I had a year in Spain, which my father helped fund, which was an amazing privilege to have. Learn the Spanish language, learn the culture. And it was especially interesting because sexuality was a big deal in restoring my gender identity. But for the most part, they were kind of experiencing a revolution as their dictator Francisco Franco had finally passed. And they were allowed to become their own country really without a dictator. So, the youth and the people I met there were incredible, they were supportive. They understood me, questioning my gender identity, and did what they could. But still it was a very, I guess a boy mode lifestyle, because it is a very Catholic country as well. Finally, when I came back to the U.S., started trying to go to college down in Middlesex Community College next to Rutgers. And there like I met my first boyfriend, who was going to Rutgers, I met my musician friends, I started doing photography. My own storytelling, songwriting and being in bands kind of started and things were a little more accepting. Though again, access to any queer community, didn't really seem like it was possible. There was no places to go except coffee shops. The art scene was probably my best friend in terms of being accepted, but meeting people was difficult. So, I was primarily dating men for most of that part of my life, which became more and more difficult because of my femininity, my history of domestic violence, my lack of trust and a lot of psychological issues that I hadn't really had time to work out. So that's pretty much the early part into my teens, I'm 45 years old. So I've had a lot of good life experiences, I think. I hope that answers your question. But I've always put it in the frame of, I've transitioned multiple lives at times in my life. I've transitioned out of the fear that there's always going to be violence and things around me. I still continue to do that. I ended up marrying a woman for about 12 years. Working in a medical device corporation, playing in bands, owning a home, during the other American Dream, the heterosexual American Dream. And as a bisexual, I guess throughout my life, my gender identity was always on the back burner. Fitting in was always a priority. Feeling safe was always a priority that I couldn't tell people about. Cross dressing the whole time in private, afraid not knowing how people would take it or my family. Even though I had come out to my father as homosexual, that was a whole ordeal, but he was accepting. But would never have been accepting of transgender. Just because of how that was viewed in New York, was that we were all streetwalkers, that we were troublemakers. That we only brought pain and disgrace to a Catholic family, because their boy, had abandoned them and their faith. So, it's always in the back of your head along with the violence growing up. Well, anyway, in my marriage it was a good marriage for a time until symptoms of yeah, sorry. NB: So, what year did you get married in? AW: So I was married, my goodness, [laughs]. So this --I would have been around 32 at that point in time. So, the exact year is evading me right now. But that was in New Brunswick, I was in New Brunswick, New Jersey by that point in time. So, the marriage went well, but my sexuality was always never really allowed to be discussed. Because now I'm in a committed relationship, I've married my best friend basically. So anytime I would bring up that past, or queer concepts, or wanting to go do drag or -- it was always, no, just not, no. Even though a lot of my friends and our friend group had known me as the gay boy or the queer boy. So, toward the end of our relationship is when -- and it's something I talk about a lot, is mental health, because it's just so vital. Especially as a queer kid growing up, you don't get -- you get misdiagnosed, I was misdiagnosed my whole life. So not knowing that I had complex post-traumatic stress, that was exhibiting itself in different ways in taking on, and dropping addictions like alcoholism, or excessive drug use of whatever kind, was making it very difficult to operate on a daily basis, maintain my job, several attempts at rehab and things along those lines. Eventually I got the trauma diagnosis and that kind of set me on the right path. And did men's trauma outpatient groups about three times after several different psychiatric hospitalizations. Just because the symptoms are pulling you in multiple directions and you really -- you're never able to maintain a sense of inner stability, a sense of inner healing. Finally, through the men's trauma group, I was able to start my transition emotionally with a really good therapist. And there wasn't really a discussion about my gender at all. It was discussion about how I was dealing with my trauma symptoms and allowing myself to live as a person I want to. And that's kind of where the past five years of my journey have started. And we're all -- throughout that though, I've always had some level of activism going on in my life, usually attending things, reading the literature. But I mean we'll probably talk about that later. [laughs]. NB: We will. One of the things you mentioned was your mother and it sounded like you were very close to her. AW: Yes, yeah, definitely. She was definitely an incredible force in both me and my sister's life. Very intelligent, a lover of nature, having grown up on farm and animals. Also a fair amount of theatrical when she needed to be, a fair amount of sarcasm and humor. But she was living in a time in society where, she still couldn't have a credit card in the 80s. Her divorce was the biggest shame to bring on any family. Even from my grandmother, who had gone through similar things. During the divorce, , we were homeless for a minute together. She, me and my sister, and nobody would support us. All the food resources were cut off. But the things she had done to maintain the kind of illusion of wealth or whatever it was to get that American Dream were lavish parties for all the executives, croquet on the lawn like some magical fairytale in England or Ireland, that everyone seemed to want to be living in the late 70s, early 80's. And there was no time for kids, but the little time she had, she did spend with us. She did stuff in the garden, she made sure my diet was good, that I had laughter and fun, but at the same time she kind of had to whisk me in my sister way out of view after the adults needed to get together. Which was very Great Gatsbyesque in some way, but also wonderful to see her dressed up and entertaining and people playing cards or laughing. It was something I was lucky to witness but it was also on the other side of it, because once the parties would end it was violence. It was hiding down next to my Atari or TV, it was me standing between my parents trying to stop the blows, my sister pulling me away. So, the real legacy in the home was unfortunately one of violence, and even in adulthood with a remarriage, we could never discuss these things, oh well your parent loves you, but there's that history. I had to move on to forgiveness. Of all the things that happened to the home, but I don't think my sister ever will and I don't blame her. She was older, she knew what was going on, whereas I basically blocked out a lot. So that's why these things come up later in life, right? They come up when things are going good, you would think, but something's not matching and for me it was my gender identity. And honestly, I can say that once I did transition, I didn't have to take my psychiatric medications anymore. I mean everything started to match like overnight almost it felt like, that I can move forward and work on the things I needed to work on to be my truest self. The mother that I've always felt that I am even though it's two other people and it's not children. The support network that's a walking judgment free zone whatever it takes, to live as ourselves, it's just the most important thing to me.And I think my mother understood that, my sister knew she understood that, but it just wasn't the time for us as a queer kid wasn't for me at least. NB: Something else you've mentioned a few times is kind of the place of faith in your childhood. Would you be willing to talk a little bit about what it was like for you to grow up as a young closeted transwoman during the 70s and 80s and how the Catholic Church and the kinds of impact it had on you and your sister? AW: Yeah certainly. Well, yeah, it was an interesting time, there was so much going on with the AIDS crisis that even at 10 years old I was aware of it. Luckily my sister is a journalist. So even after getting out of la la land of Long Island, she was fiercely looking for information almost the same way she had to look for information in the home to see how to help ourselves. Total researcher. My sister just always 20 questions everything that's going on in your life and it's lovely though because you get to know it's out of the place of concern. But growing up in there and also being left in Ireland with an auntie and having my grandmother on my father's side, take me to 3 hour masses where it's hellfire and brimstone and God is coming down on the sexual. In the news, God is coming down the homosexuals. Transgender wasn't even really talked about, I didn't even know what transgender was until maybe eight years ago. So, the wording of things in the media did end the loss of my mother. Definitely it was scary because one, the way my remaining parent, my father was, there was no time to mourn. You're not allowed. No emotion, I'm uncomfortable with emotion was the finished reaction. Literally the day of her funeral, you're a big boy now all this type of things. And the only people who were there for that support were her sisters, and he immediately pushed them all away. So my sister was the last remaining one and he pushed her away. But the information that I did see on the news etc. and the conversations I could have with my sister were key for me to understand what was going on especially -- they had happened when I was too young, but the AIDS crisis protests you know where they lie down in the catholic church in New York City. And protesters dying basically in play on the floor and getting dragged out was definitely heavy in my mind. The fact that my sister's gay friends, because she was now in college, were dying left and right and their activism was going strong until the day they died a lot of them. And just being familiar with those stories like that my family history story of the kind of revolution stuff that my grandmother had to do definitely instilled in me a mindset for fighting for a liberation of queer identities. Which even though that wasn't really in the Catholic church in Ireland or Irish Catholic mentality in the U.S., it was definitely a part of our history and something that now, if you look at that country, it's very much they passed marriage equality before we did. All with the help of similar types of activism that have been taking place in here in the 80s and into the 90s. But then when I finally, without my mother, grew up trying to understand my femininity. It was a different time yet again when I was of age, the AIDS crisis was still the most terrifying thing and the thought of having a partner or possibly as a transfem from passing on the virus just I cut that out of my life because it was just so terrifying. Every boyfriend you're just like, oh I'm gonna test it again, it's just so much fear. And really, I was seeing a real separation of, after the death of a lot of great leaders, just the kind of the death of the social scene, the queer social scene, the closing of clubs. Obviously, a lot of clubs I couldn't go to, we're still going on, it was really more everyone, but those local spaces were gone down in New Brunswick. So, I threw myself into the music scene with very cute few queer personalities, but a few. So, it kind of just became its own mix of everyone and all cultures and all ideas that were supportive, which was its own joy, its own space that you made like you make a queer space your own. And finding that chosen family, if they're out there, there's always a challenge but it happens here and there. NB: So, it sounds like you were in New Brunswick involved in the music scene and at the same time, you were going into New York city on the weekends. Can you talk a little bit about kind of that period for us and its significance for your development and what it was like to be going into New York at that time, where you meeting other trans women or not really? AW: So yeah, that's always a tough one. As a transfem myself who was always in boy mode and also someone who having grown up with abuse and then the allure of New York was always there, was this big thing. But I always -- I guess I'm more -- I prefer the country or something or just small cities or college towns compared to the big city because of the way my trauma kind of expresses itself, like rejection, this sensitive dysphoria, things like that. And though I'm very capable of traveling at any rate in New York City and getting around safely, my earliest years were actually not hanging down there. They were hanging up in Harlem, going to see jazz early on with the girlfriends, getting to learn about that scene in small clubs there. But it also wasn't the safest time and a lot of parts lower than the 90s on Broadway streetwise. And then the train ride to go down to the village, you didn't really know anyone and you weren't really a New Yorker anymore because you're coming from New Jersey, so you're just an out-of-towner. So, what happens is you go into these clubs and if you don't immediately code switch to whatever is cool or whatever people are talking about, because I'm a little rock and roll girl, if I'm not into Madonna or this artist or whatever, I'm not necessarily going to fit in, not having set myself up in New York. Because the way that city works is like the cool things that happen is what everyone is following for the most part and they all know each other and they're all on the same scene. So emotionally it made it difficult. I was never really a fan especially with the AIDS crisis of the kind of hook up culture that goes along with being gay, a gay male. And so basically I would always kind of just kind of bring myself back to my New Brunswick area and see if I could find a group of friends. I had a boyfriend for a long period of time and I know one of the big events we went to was multiple marches were happening around the murder of Matthew Shepard, which is very critical time and kind of really opening up everyone's eyes again. Because it had been a bunch of years since the AIDS crisis was still going on really, but not in the same way as when all these people are dying, and nobody was helping. So those types of activities and other ways that I could get informed and get involved with the types of activity I do, but really my true activism didn't start to come back up until in my mid 30s when I wasn't really going to the city anymore except to see music concerts and things like that. I hope that answers your question. It was definitely an interesting time that I think it's easy to glorify the queer scene, but as a transgender it's never been all rainbows for me, and I've come to terms of that. We can't always fit in, we can't always like everybody, can't always feel safe everywhere. And in a big city there's that crushing pressure to be seen and when you don't have the money and the resources and the support around you -- the best place for me has always been the local pride center, which there was one in New Brunswick. But I guess I never had the wherewithal to talk it stop into the New York City ones, although I meet girls and people going out and stuff, but they always had their own things to do and I'd always have to get back and go work or something at a restaurant or photography or whatever I was doing. [laughs] NB: Can you talk a little bit about that LGBT Center in New Brunswick? AW: Sure. NB: How old were you when you discovered it? AW: So, I probably discovered that around 21. Yep, it was very small, and they had some great events here and there. But it always seemed like it was never able to kind of get out of the building, it's there for the support and that support community was important but people have to go about living their own lives. And really a lot of the activity then seemed to be going on more around college campuses like Rutgers had its own, which is specifically for Rutgers students, and so they're their own group of cultures. There's always kind of on the fringe, and your identity gets lost when you're in the mix with everybody else and you don't have those consistent queer friends or when you're dating, and there's no one quite like you because you're too rock and roll, you're not into what's cool. Cultural evolutions in this country especially around the queer scene there pretty fast, and people kind of raise themselves up with it which I applaud but a lot of people get lost in the mix too. We're seeing that I think today, as well as were way more insular and stuck in our online communities which are also good. But the in-person stuff is what I always grew up around, so I'm always gonna gravitate toward. But, I honestly can't say for most of that time I had many trans identifying friends. Didn't until it transitioned. And that's always been upsetting but it's been so great to get in and learn really what's going on, especially in the new age of it and see what people -- what I was doing my 20's is different, but what they're doing now is just exactly what I'm doing now. So about supporting younger people so that they have these spaces and that's my goal in the next couple of years to find those spaces and find those spaces to put people together. Because there's one thing I've known as a trans person is, going to shows or done drag on occasion, my body is the greatest revolution. That walking freely as myself is the main thing that I've always had in the back of my head. How wonderful it would be, and then to finally do that thing, to be yourself unashamedly, is just the biggest inspiration to watch other people doing that same path too. Yeah. [LAUGH] NB: Yeah. So, can you talk for us a little bit about your transition and coming into your womanhood? Can you talk about -- was there a single event which was kind of a catalyst for that? Was it multiple things? AW: Well, it had been coming up quite a bit. And leading up to my father's death about five years ago, I was already going through a divorce. I was facing a layoff from a good company. I was gonna be selling my house because of the divorce. And I was having major mental health stuff. My father had dementia for a number of years, and he was kind of, that voice, that internal voice sort of internalized homophobia, internalized transphobia. That voice that was kind of constantly beating me up. And it never really allowed me to mature into my womanhood because frankly, I don't think this is a person that likes women very much, as evidenced by their behaviors throughout my life. And pushing all the women in my family away. When my father died is when I finally started transitioning. And you could think about how an individual can have that much manipulative and psychological strength of somebody's identity. I think it's evidence pretty clearly that my transition, I only allowed myself to begin once he passed. I think that's a pretty common story I've learned from doing my trans support groups. Like often we put our lives on hold because we do love and care about the people, even our abusers. And we're taught that we're the burden when we have so much more to offer and we're not a burden. So that journey has been rough. Only recently starting to get better. I was homeless the first year of my transition driving Uber, so sleeping in my car, crashing on couches because I lost that job, and then lost my apartment that I had after selling the house. And Uber just is Jersey city, all New York City, even down to PA. Just,you can never catch up with a small car payment and everything else and tolls and bad tips and all that. It was fun though, because I got to kind of do the early awkward stages of my transition in my car and meet fun people in my own stomping ground and have good conversations. So, it was kind of an ideal job to be having with the money. Just, I couldn't keep afloat on it and my confidence, and my trauma symptoms were still really in this kind of hypervigilant state of like, I gotta run, I gotta run, I gotta run. And to top that off because of the divorce and my mental health, I was kind of losing all of my old friends, like they didn't know what to do with me. They couldn't help. They wouldn't talk to me. They knew I was going through stuff, but they weren't available on purpose. [laughs] So one trans male friend did help me get down here and at least have a place to stay. So, this is why I'm in this area, after that first year and eventually my car got repossessed. [laughs] So now I had nowhere to live which was my car. And so, I crashed in their place for a few months, tried to collect myself on my own. No money and finally, I was terrified of this whole area, I knew nothing about this area. I thought I was in the boondocks. I really didn't know because I didn't have a car, I couldn't see things, and nobody's wanting to support. But around those years is actually when I got involved with Eastern PA Trans Equity Project. They saved my ass. [laughs] One, I found a huge group of women like me and different from me from all walks of life. And I started to find the resources that I needed to give me kind of a boost in living as my full true self. One of oddly enough, the saving grace was just going back to bartending, that was my first job in the area. And even though there's a lot of passive aggression and microaggression as a transwoman behind the bar, you can control it. You can kind of keep that distance because you're responsible for people's liquor intake, and service, and whatnot. But that allowed me to get introduced to people in the community, and then COVID hit. And that was rough because then I had the feelings again which I've had throughout my life with no family, no future. The world's falling apart, all the PTSD symptoms coming up and I had some older friends start helping me a little financially here and there. Without them, I'd be on the street. So that was rough, and it still continues to be. All types of things and blockades get in your way financially. Unemployed for about a year after the bartending, and then bartending during COVID on and off as the restrictions were lifted and it's really affecting the industry. And then finally, most recently I got a decent job in my old field of medical devices. So, my life stability is a little better. But through all those years without Eastern PA Trans Equity Project-- I got food cards from them, I got assistance getting clothing from the Allentown Women's Center for my return to work through a referral from them, money towards my legal name change to make everything easier for me and living my life as myself. I had rent assistance for a period that was not even like eight months ago. And then of course I volunteered my time during the pandemic to provide support for other girls in the community. And that to me is the mutual support. Me having gone through some of these difficult experiences, all I can do is share some of the things I've learned about managing my mental health. And some of the attitudes I've learned to have to take, to keep kind of strong stance for myself, strong boundaries which are things I wasn't allowed to have growing up. I wasn't allowed to have any boundaries. And just relearning them in your 40's, and relearning about yourself and your body and going through -- sorry the word is evading me. Going through puberty again I meant to say, just all a flurry. A flurry of things to suddenly be learning when you're basically almost at midlife. [laughs] But you learn from other people when you share of yourself. And then you get to see them grow and you get to feel a sense of accomplishment for them in that you provided your strength and hope. And then they can see them themselves. Which I never had a mother to help me to do that. My sister hasn't lived in the country since I was 19. She lives in Ireland with her husband and kids. And if there's anything that starting my own journey of being a support member of our community has shown me it's our strength and resilience as a community, and the things that we go through. And to me those all happened in those small moments of togetherness when we come together. And I just want to provide those more and more as I get older and further along in my transition. I just want to be available for people in my community because sometimes we're the only people available for us most of the time. And that was also always clear in New York growing up, transgirls stuck to themselves. My bisexuality is always erased by my partners, you're not bi, you're gay. Then by my straight partner, You're not gay, you're hetero. It's small microaggressions that people don't realize that they're erasing your identity because they're living by theirs, and they want you to fit into it. They want you to fit into their box. But that's the beauty of breaking that with transition because you can make new goals for yourself and new norms for yourself that may only apply to you. [laughs] NB: When it came to kind of starting the process of transition -- you've talked a lot about how Eastern PA a few years after starting transition became really important for you and your survival. In those early years, how did you go about accessing things like hormones, medical care, clothing when you were Ubering and living out of your car? Do you mind talking about that a little bit? AW: Sure, yeah. Yeah, that was particularly rough because I did not have insurance for a good period of time. I had about a 5-month severance from Johnson and Johnson where I continued to have medical care. I was laid off around my birthday that year which is also around when my father died. A few months later in December, he died. So, my birthday is October, so I really started on my birthday, HRT at, it was called the Proud Health Center in Somerset, New Jersey which it really had been open only a little bit. But it was part of a family practice that was LGBTQ friendly from Robert Wood Johnson. And so, I started my hormones there and they were great but they didn't have a lot of time ; since it's expanded, it's a much better program. Also, because I was driving Uber, I could kind of drop in on meetings that Robert Wood Johnson was holding from some -- a great nurse over there. Yeah, I don't want to put their name on film, but they really kind of spearheaded getting, reaching out to the trans community because our care was so complicated. And in my early years, I had met a lot of trans people that were like, I can't even deal with hormones and this hospital's horrible. They're all awful, that was really my first experience was fear. Is these people are going to misgender me, they're going to not understand why I'm doing this. But the reality was a lot of what I was expecting would be needed at the time frame that I went in, wasn't a requirement. Maybe I think I needed my psychologist letter at some point, but really after a while, it was just the doctors were happy enough to be like, okay. So that was nice that it was changing, but all the other trans people I had met, that hadn't been the case. Their journey had been very difficult. So, in terms of accessing my hormones, I was able to continue even without insurance to pay full price. So, I just paid out of pocket. So that was a big challenge, right? And another reason my car got repo'd because I was not going without my spironolactone or hormones because my depression would just kind of come over me if I did. I met a good friend in the music scene who's also trans and nonbinary who's in her thirties. So -- they use they/them pronouns, their thirties. And we kind of helped support each other too, which was ideal for me. She needed a ride from her job that there was no bus route out of, and I would drive an hour from wherever I was and get her help. We had $5 to our name. We'd [laughs] buy some meat at Aldi together and cook it. Whatever it took, share spironolactone, that's pretty common story. I was really getting low on hormones and things when I finally came to this area. And eventually through the bartending I learned that I could get medical assistance around the time of COVID, continue to get my injectable estrogen. So that worked out and also that that you get like a six-month prescription. [laughs] Kind of helps too that I could kind of float through a year without it being too difficult. But luckily, I had been around the trans community in New Brunswick, mostly Latina trans community since I speak Spanish. And I had learned a lot about what they went through for the feminizing aspects, a lot of this harm they do themselves. And so that was my greatest fear. So having understanding of biology in the medical background, I refused to kind of do this almost approaching self-harm things to myself. Thankfully, I didn't have to resort to that, but I would have easily unfortunately, and I know girls who do. I do everything to help them not go down that path. But it's education, it's support. And this is what small nonprofits are doing in this country the same way that, empathetic, sympathetic churches have always been doing to this country on civil rights. We need our community and need each other to do that. We don't get those things online. I don't think, some may, but I don't think that's the case. NB: You mentioned a community of Latina trans women in New Brunswick. AW: Sure. NB: Can you kind of talk about what they taught you and what you learned from that? AW: Sure. Well, I actually forgot about the first trans woman I met in New Brunswick used to deliver my film from Epson film -- Fujifilm, sorry. And she was wonderful transfem, big lady, just really hysterical Latina woman, and we always cracked up about whatever is going on with my boyfriends, with whoever she was dating. But she would kind of clue me into what some of the girls that would come into the shop to get either passport photos or just a photo to send home or to a partner of how good they look. And so often just being in the community, I would get -- even at the local HIV like testing place. Which is around the corner from me right on George Street, New Brunswick I would meet girls there and just talk about what they're going through. And some of the unfortunate, negative side effects of like bad breast implants or injectable liquids of all different kinds, that's just like horror stories. And so, from those experiences, I always kind of try to carry forward like, anyway that will help that I can. It ended up at my corporate job being kind of doing that advocacy because in the past 20 years corporations are really picking up in their attempts to reach out to communities, like ours which are marginalized. And advocating within the organization, but also trying to support external groups like Eastern PA Trans Equity, etc. in getting the message out about our health care, about our lives. I'm glad they're doing that. Probably seen like the Love Has No Labels kind of campaign that brings out a lot of corporations. I hope it helps, but honestly often it doesn't, it's only our smaller groups, our insular groups that are doing really super grassroots stuff to just support each other. There was a Puerto Rican Action Board was a group there that I didn't actually end up getting involved with, but coworker at the time did. And kind of keep me apprised and I try to support when I can, but again, when you just kind of work in a living for your life, it's very difficult to get along those things unfortunately but you learn. NB: So, what has your advocacy looked like both in your current place of work and with Eastern PA Trans Equity Project. AW: So, I mean most of my advocacy is really through Eastern PA Trans Equity Project. In my previous positions was around the time of marriage equality. I had people coming in from PFLAG and doing like the How To Be An Ally 101 courses the PFLAG has. So, I would get speakers to come in and do Lunch and Learns, also have LGBTQ people speaking of our facilities, doing fundraising around the organization. Do you mean -- one of my favorites was a photo event will read it like different pride, rainbow flag colored backgrounds. And gave people signage to kind of show their support and hold up signs supporting LGBTQ people that was right before marriage equality. So, 5 or 6 years I was organizing that alongside doing my work. Fortunately, corporate setting, you're still running a business so you only get a few hours a day or a week. And you just really have to get it all done, but you're getting the money to get that out there. So, it's really just kind of like a quick production, get everyone excited about it, do something fun, get them involved and then it's back to business as usual. And usually unfortunately, this is kind of like an extracurricular thing, you're not really getting rated for it at your job. It's just you're doing it out of love. And so that would be in my career at least one of the things I'm proudest of doing. Then with Eastern PA in the past couple of years, that's been my main focus. So, I run the online Zoom trans support group. I set up a Discord server during the pandemic for members of our community trans identifying, as well as a separate space within it for non-binary individuals, because they may have more private things they don't want to discuss. And we're just trying still to get everyone there to be able to talk to each other to get the access and be able to discuss their medical needs, legal needs, beauty needs. Understanding how do I do my makeup, one of the hardest things because we haven't been raised or allowed to be raised as we want to be. And then we have to do it ourselves, but you have to have community around you to teach that. So all the personal things and the life things can happen in that private space, which has been wonderful. Hopefully in the next year we're going to have a lot more kind of public hangout events, board game parties, DJ parties, whatever. Which is something I'm hoping to start getting the funding for. Then Corrine Goodwin, who's the leader of the organization, she is the one organizing all of our larger events. So, all of the Trans Day of Visibility events, all of the Trans Day of Remembrance events, and [inaudible] events, fundraising events all throughout the state. I mean last Trans Day of Remembrance, I think she did four in a row, drove all over PA to do different events. I mean it's amazing. Little hard for me to do, I don't have a car, but I'd be right there with her. Also, you know the LGBTQ events locally, we do stands at those, we try to get people involved, get them to join the Lehigh Valley Renaissance. Which is our transfem and non-binary kind of social group that also meets once a month which Corrine runs, and I can run occasionally. But the main part of that really is for me, I try and do support since I'm still working on getting out of a long period of always on the edge of. [LAUGH]. homelessness again. So, the hope is in the next few years it's really gonna kind of get to where we can be out there and supporting each other and getting the word out. Because, I think if there's anything I've learned it's just I am meeting now at this point in my life, so many trans folks from all different walks of life. I love their stories ; I love the things that they've gone through. I love how unexpected, and talented, and compassionate so many of them are and how good we're at supporting each other and supporting the community that we can. And I think one of the bravest things, which Corrine is kind of pointed out for each of us, is just living out our day to day life sometimes. Even bartending was really showing up in a way for my community because so many people haven't met a trans person. And like that means somebody who can openly and freely talk, as like no, just leave me alone, has been nice. NB: What do you think it took for you to get to that place of being able to openly and freely discussing your identity, not just with other transfems and trans women, but just with people in generally. AW: It's a really good question, I mean through all the previous stuff I was talking about with my mental health and stuff, that was certainly the most terrifying part, just the fear of violence, I think. Having a friend in that group, having younger people actually who I worked with, just being supportive, like it's cool. Like it being no big deal. Because still I think -- what I point out to a lot of people is that everybody has a bit of internalized transphobia, especially trans folks. At some point in your transition, there's just this overpowering fear that you're gonna destroy your life and because that's what society tells us. But just that little bit of acceptance and a friend, currently I lost a very good friend, who was that friend who just show up and just bounce stuff off each other, take a trip somewhere. Both having difficult things going on in our lives and having that it took a long time to find anyone who's even willing to hang out with me. I'm usually the person alone if I go out somewhere because it's just, you're new to an area, you haven't really met people who want to spend time with you. That and you're terrified of how they will perceive you or that they'll notice the microaggressions that you receive on a daily basis. Which did happen a lot during the early years of my transition, particularly in this area. Until you start to meet this -- really, okay. Well, I didn't think I was safe here, but wow, I actually am. So it's those little steps in the right direction from the driving to this like -- you just kinda gotta reiteratedly do the thing. [laughs]. Until you're comfortable, but that was my process. Other people, I know they're just right in it, they're like, yeah, this is it. I'm like, wow, that's amazing, because for me, I would spend a lot of time really worrying about how this is affecting my mental health if it was a good thing. But always knowing that it was down the line because of the moments of gender euphoria and the moments of self care, or all the things you've always ever wanted about your femininity. And those who appreciate it, realizing that they truly appreciate you and they have questions, but they accept you. I love the communication of it. I'm a storyteller, I guess. So it makes sense that I would like to get involved and get into the nitty gritty with people who have questions for our community. About who we are, and what it took us to get individually where we are? NB: Yeah. You mentioned feeling safe in the Lehigh Valley. Can you talk a little bit about what it was for you to kind of come into that sense of safety? AW: Sure. It's honestly only been the past year. So, I've been here maybe 3 or 4 years but it's more really about the country's political environment, not so much about the Valley. But when you're in a new place, like when I was in Spain or all the moving I did throughout my childhood, every new place kind of comes with a whole new set of where am I, what is going on? Am I safe here? And I've certainly had that from of my other friends from marginalized communities. You go into a bar with them and then they're like, I am not feeling safe here and all of a sudden this was me. Where am I, like I am not safe here as an immediate reaction, because you've been in those situations before throughout your life. So originally, I did not feel safe here. The reason I do now is being out and proud and really not letting anyone get in my way with that, they certainly try wherever you go. I would guess externally I do have a bit of passing privilege, but usually when people hear my voice and stuff, I don't. And that's when the questions start to dig in and the stares, if there's somebody who is unsympathetic to me just being left alone to live my life. But finally in the past even five months as people are coming out of COVID, the events are starting to come back. The places that we can go are starting to come back. The Stonewall closed here toward the end of the pandemic. I'd never been there except for that closing. Which is upsetting, but I was finally starting to hear the stories from the community, about how sad it was that space was going. And I'm already learning and seeing queer community building the spaces up again, and I think it's a great opportunity for a lot of people to get in and start building those up. Because we need them, especially the trans community, a lot of the people that are on the server with me, they don't leave the house and I hate that for us, I hate it. That makes me feel like the kid I was stuck in my parents' basement and it breaks my heart, because it took years of therapy or me to go embrace that kid and be like, you're okay, you're safe. And what our community has always needed to do at some point our lives is embrace ourselves, embrace that hurt inner child that wasn't allowed to be who they are. It's who you are, why would anyone not allow that? It's just, I'll never understand. And so safety for me with the complex post-traumatic stress has come through those friendships I was talking about. Going through some of the experiences that were difficult, like with political rhetoric and pundits. And that stuff comes into your life when you work in a public setting, like a bar or restaurant, the attitudes, the MAGA hats. People with Nazi symbols on their clothing, literally walking into your restaurant and sitting down and having a meal, but I'm the problem. It takes a great deal of humor, somebody to turn to and be like, I don't know what's going on, let's get through this day, please. Which is fun in the food industry, because you have that ability to, to joke things off, otherwise you wouldn't be there. But also, for the PTSD part it's about learning to compartmentalize again. Which is so difficult when you're struggling with mental health. PTSD is about living in the past and not being able to live in the present. How do you get yourself back to right now and stand with pride. And I just have to pull from so many sources in my past, in my life, and the people I talked to and I know love me, which are very few it seems sometimes when you're in a new place, because they're far away. You have to pull from all those sources to make yourself hold your head high basically and get through it and not allowed allow yourself to go through your life [inaudible] basically. Which sometimes there'll be days, that's all that's gonna feel like. But you have to get back to being able to put the negative feelings in some regard on the shelf so that you can continue. But it's literally only something I think I had to completely relearn in the past couple years. Because when you're really suffering from serious trauma symptoms, you don't know where you are. You hit a point of frozen to collapse, to hyper vigilant, to frozen again, to collapse. And as you get your head out of that and you learn to do self care and what it takes for yourself. That's when you can come to that point. Yeah, that's what's worked for me at least [laughs] NB: I'm curious, you mentioned at the start of the interview that Catholicism, was quite harmful for you in terms of growing up during the AIDS crisis. And seeing the Catholic church is kind of blatant homophobia. I'm curious as you've gotten older, have you ever returned to faith. Is it something that has become important to you? AW: So, oddly enough, I mean I think a lot of children just understanding childhood development and stuff. My ex was actually once an art teacher, so we had a lot of discussions about that type of thing, and it's nice to watch and understand, like to see almost how I was learning and the things that my mom was doing more along those lines. Sorry, what was the question again? I have a really like -- I always have to kind of like think things through. NB: No that's okay, I'm just curious, do you feel at this point in your life that a sense of faith is something that -- AW: I see yeah, the faith questions. So, and losing my mother even in the Catholic church setting. And then going to Catholic school for the rest of my life, you certainly still rely on some of the allegories and stories behind the Catholic faith. And the concepts of loving God, but the god I was experiencing was hurtful. He took my mother away, right. The violence of my home hurtful, right. That's not the religion's fault. But certainly, the way I was not allowed to mourn and etc., made it very difficult for me to appreciate that there was a loving God. It just seemed like an angry guy to me. So, I did though bring up on the spirituality of feeling that my mother was always around me and watching for me. My grandmother when she died. And so only around the time I started getting my therapy and understanding through that and meditation and EMDR, which was some of the things that kind of help you surface the trauma and talk to it to settle some of the [shudders] that causes those bodily reactions. And around this time when I realized how visual I've always been in dreaming and in looking at my life. I actually started to embrace Celtic paganism. Which is stuff I had read up throughout my life on their mythology. The name Aoife, she was a warrior chieftainess, so that's why that's my chosen name now. And I felt a strong spiritual connection to the kind of pantheon of gods and goddesses as well as the natural connection to an agrarian lifestyle, to farming, to the cycles of the Earth, to nature. So, for me that's my I wouldn't call it religion, I'd call it just myself practice of faith, because it's only me who does it. I don't discuss it with anyone else. It's just helps me put the symbols and the imagery around me that helps me feel protected. That would be the best way to describe it. And that was something that even in my grandmother's Catholic faith. She had Roma or you know people of Roma descent come to the farm. And she would help them even though she was Catholic because they had to help each other in those areas. So, I don't see it too much different from the idea of the Christian faith for some reason. I do know though that the dogma of the Catholic faith is certainly what, yeah really kind of tore me up. Because it has no place for me as a queer person, it's just kind of is pushing away the things that are really needed for people to heal. Which is why I never felt comfortable because I was never allowed to heal. So, it's as much the society around it as it is the kind of dogma surrounding it. That said I would never be angry at somebody for being faithful. I think the Catholic faith is the only thing that got my grandmother through what she went through in the Irish Revolution and civil war and to her dying day so I respect it in that regard too. I see its power. I think that I wouldn't consider myself an atheist anymore. I'm scientifically minded, but definitely feeling more along the lines of Pagan these days. NB: Is there anything we haven't talked about that you would like to discuss? AW: I'm not sure. Well I guess it's interesting, you know the company I'm at now the enterprise resource group stuff they're doing -- it's like their first year doing it. So that's great to see companies still starting to embrace this, I'm probably their only trans employee. I would love in the work that I'm doing with them as they're starting out to get some better speakers into these businesses because we are a capitalist democracy. Business runs a lot of things including public opinion sometimes. And the fact that, you really can't decide we're not going to do business with a whole group of people or something and the corporations understand this now. While the capitalist mindset is pretty cutthroat, can have a lot of ills in society, I think that seeing them starting to work towards the betterment of marginalized communities is just amazing. I want to see more of it, and I want to be a part of it. But for me, I'm more honestly the kind of nonprofit route is where I hope to keep going with my future endeavors. And supporting how I can and get into the rallies and getting to the meetups and the show ups to just get out the message that we're regular people, like everyone else. That's really all I can stand for. NB: And so you would like eventually to leave your current role then and move into a nonprofit? AW: I would hope to at some point. I think I have some other things to do in the meantime in getting my life back together. Seems to have been a long couple of years. But I have some small, more creative projects in mind ; possibly getting back into another band. Music has been one of my avenues. I haven't talked about some of the music I did, but it's humorous. I did it just a wacky album a while back and then one I would like to do again is kind of cute. It was around the time of Don't Ask Don't Tell. I did a band where it was basically [inaudible] up the military with jokes about military jargon and a lot of people in the military understands. There's kind of like a very gay undertone, some of the stuff. Other groups of men together or groups of women together that anyone on a sports team could probably tell you too. But it was just a cute thing that I used to do as a kind of protest thing around the time of Don't Ask, Don't Tell. So hopefully more little pop up art things like that. Like try and focus on my art, since my focus right now really is as much caring for others as it is caring for my creative spirit, honoring that legacy of family members have always kind of, some of them been creatives, and bringing a little bit of joy into what feels like a dark world. I hope to do that in a way that will work. And those connections are one of the connections in bands and stuff that a lot of people don't see, they feel are very insular, if you go to like a queer rock show or whatever. But people are starting to see it more and I know like 20 queer bands all of a sudden, whereas I feel like 10 years ago I would have known one. So those are the spaces where you can kind of feel like you're on the front line and do some fun things to kind of send out a message. Like we're here, we're not going anywhere, [laughs] and we're gonna sing very loud about it. And hopefully bring some of that energy into future protests, whatever it takes. And definitely just trying to up my activism level as well as my support level and hopefully that ends up in a nonprofit. NB: Something that's been recurring throughout our conversation I've noticed is the role of music and kind of creative endeavors in sustaining you. When do you think that started? AW: God, I mean, that's definitely at age five. My mother was great at encouraging that as well as my sister, and you know, in ways my father even would do magic tricks or whatever, whatever it took to just kind of get through the sad part and I think it is actually culturally an Irish trait like you just laugh through everything. I'm very thankful for that as well as the other members of like -- my mother's best friend and her husband were just always a source of laughter growing up. That was very lucky to have, even though I've had a lot of hard times, I'm immensely privileged and I know that. And so for me, one of the earliest things I did to mourn her was to focus on my creativity, focus on my love of nature, and express it to the best of my ability to bring humor and joy and intensity to other people's lives. I think it's just one of the most amazing mediums -- and always in the illage, right? The piano bars, drag shows. I just went to drag queen bingo for the first time here over Easton. Amazing! I won gummy sushi. I think it was on -- yeah. And so like those are the types of things that I think just bring people that momentary joy or like listen, I don't take myself so damn seriously. You know, all this stuff that's going on in the world. Yeah, it's serious, but we can give ourselves a moment to laugh together, to celebrate something together and to celebrate the strength of and resilience of our queer communities and what they can provide to the rest of culture, you know, in this country. Because that's what marginalized communities have always done. We've always given culture back to this country that seems to just be glossed over. Meanwhile, it's mostly what we look at on the television, on Netflix right. There's a great deal of history of arts and things that lead up to all the amazing things that are happening in the media, right? And I just want to be there to support it. NB: So we are nearing the end of our time. But on the note of culture, I wanted to circle back, and to ask you about your time in Spain? AW: Sure, sure. NB: And what that was like, what it was like for you as a young person to kind of be abroad as so much was happening in the 90s? AW: Sure, yeah, I mean, right out of high school and doing Spain was just the best experience of my life. A lot of family members like, why did you come back? [laughs] Which I thought was funny. I was like, cause I was just gonna be broke if I stayed out there. [laughs] They were still kind of bringing their economy back together at that time in Spain. But yeah, the culture, this history, the sense of community and family, the music scene. Jazz clubs, which I grew up seeing jazz in New York. Punk clubs, there was an anarchist club or bar in every city I went to. There's a lot more socialist and deeply entrenched kind of revolutionary spirit in a lot of Spain, considering what they went through with their dictator. Learning the language and the culture, I mean, I've been very lucky to get access to European cultures and Latino cultures throughout my life. And, just that loving to learn about life, and loving to learn about other people, and celebrate things together with them. Which, when I did come back to the states, it just seemed we're getting further and further apart from each other. Owning a home, nobody's going and visiting each other unless there's a downtown. All these things are evaporating. Instead of being a place like Spain, -- in Salamanca, Spain, North of Madrid is where I lived. They have seven massive renaissance era churches there, huge steeples. A strong appreciation for the contributions of all aspects of cultures there. And so, walking around the streets around that Spanish architecture and the food, and then having different kind of French roommate, two Italian roommates, I stayed away from all Americans. I made sure I made no American friends, which sounds selfish, but on the Irish passport it's like, I don't wanna speak any English, I'm here to speak Spanish. So, we all speak Spanish in our broken accents, it's pretty cute. [laughs] So, I learned a lot about myself, and my sexuality too. Because honestly, they were really finally free from the -- a lot of Americans may not get the kind of grip the Catholic church has had throughout Europe for so long. That it was interesting to be an environment where everybody was anti-Catholic, down to the humor. I mean, they respect to religion, but the humor is completely dissing. The Catholic faith, even though most of the parents would have been Catholic, but the church did not do kind things to their families. And that the Catholic church did not do kind things to my family either, and my grandmother and mother's generation. So, I think just getting to experience that, to see a society kind of moved along outside of the kind of structures of religion was amazing, right? And then, it's just so odd to me that now we're seeing this kind of attempt to claw that old way of thinking back. But seeing them both I think, has helped me kept from some perspective about, hopefully society goes along the path of embracing more diversity and more openness to other cultures into our own. But a lot to learn there definitely. NB: Are you optimistic about the future? AW: A little scared certainly. I just think that coming at least from the background of my grandmother and the revolution and civil war there -- she was in jail at 14 by the Irish. There's actually a book written about it by my uncle Thomas. But, to know that somebody can be that resilient to get through things like that, and then go on and continue to raise a family, is so inspiring, and just kind of fills your heart. At least for me with a connection to that, to knowing enough about myself that given the time and the need to protect members of my community in whatever, if I can, I'm always going to be doing that no matter what, no matter what. It's very easy when life is constantly pressuring you on all sides, especially in the new media landscape, to feel like the other shoe is gonna drop tomorrow. But the thing that always seems to happen when that shoe does drop, people don't back down, they stand up. And so it might be a long series of years with the current news of Roe versus Wade, and Supreme Court. But I think that these are the types of things that galvanized the right people to get up, and stand up, and make our voices heard. And then we're going to see a lot of that. And I've wanted that for this country, I really have. I think there is an American revolutionary spirit that has been lost. And a lot of other countries have been going through these periods of time. So, seeing those other countries having those historical perspectives and I can't forecast what's going to happen. But I can certainly sense that we have been for a long time now, and a lot of change, and that is the start of fighting for what we believe in, however we can. And I think hearts and minds are opening slowly. But, the negative voices are always the ones that get themselves arrested first, [laughs] right? And that speaks to the ability of our country to, in the right places, actually do the right thing when it comes down to protecting the standards of a civil society, a separation of church, and state, and so forth. I think there will always be negative forces clawing at the edges of that, to see what they can get in their favorite part. We shall see, I know where I'll be standing. NB: [laughs] We shall see indeed. So, we have about four minutes left. Is there anything you would like to add that we haven't touched on? AW: I've covered a lot. [LAUGH] Gosh, I mean, I don't really think so. I just love seeing my community grow and expand. I'm looking forward to seeing the ways that we all can continue to support each other and feel supported. But also, we've all been giving each other a lot of space, and we've needed it. Everyone is needed to heal right now. This isn't just trans people, this is the whole country. One of the main things I noticed part ending too, is just a boy, here's another group of people that are just falling apart, because everything they know is being challenged. And they're going to try and take that on. It's something they don't understand. That's the big thing that I had. Think people without a little historical perspective in the country, and without a little more of a kind of like, we gotta stand up for this, queers bash back. All that 1980s, 1990s powerful stuff. I hope I'll start to see that stuff coming back. I hope it's not needed though. There's way other better ways to get our message across. And I think those are the things that happen in our day to day lives when we support our friends, and we support each other. Everyone needed each other's support right now. But what we've been doing for so long is living in our little cocoons, and there's no room for anyone else's thoughts but your own in that space. So, I just hope that more of us learn that we can bring our thoughts out there, and help support and inspire each other by our actions, and sometimes just by being ourselves, which is an action enough itself. That's it, that's all I got. NB: That's it. AW: That's it. NB: That's it. AW: That's [laughs][snaps]. NB: You heard it here first ladies and gentlemen. AW: [laughs] NB: Well Aoife thank you so much -- AW: Thank you NB: -- for your time, and for sharing your story with us. It was really an honor. AW: Absolutely you too. Absolutely great interview skills. I love it. NB: Thank you. Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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Aoife Ward, May 7, 2022
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Aoife Ward describes her early upbringing, transition, finding transgender community in New Brunswick and the Lehigh Valley, and her outlook on the future.
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LGBT-33
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2022-05-07
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Stories of Lehigh Valley LGBTQ+ Community Members (2022 - )
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Nadia Butler
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Christine Penn
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5.4 May 8, 2022 Christine Penn, May 8, 2022 LGBT-32 1:37:26 LVLGBT-2022 Stories of Lehigh Valley LGBTQ+ Community Members (2022 - ) Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository Support for the collection of this interview was provided by the American Council of Learned Societies (ACLS). trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Christine Penn Nadia Butler video/mp4 PennChristine_20220508_videotrimmed 1.0:|47(13)|82(4)|107(12)|136(2)|161(5)|188(4)|211(11)|234(8)|259(9)|286(12)|313(9)|338(8)|359(2)|382(14)|407(14)|436(8)|463(13)|492(18)|513(13)|542(5)|565(4)|590(9)|623(8)|646(11)|677(3)|700(4)|721(11)|742(9)|771(4)|796(7)|821(13)|848(11)|875(7)|906(14)|927(13)|952(7)|975(14)|998(9)|1029(4)|1056(3)|1081(13)|1108(10)|1133(3)|1154(6)|1173(12)|1202(9)|1219(17)|1242(6)|1265(12)|1294(4)|1317(12)|1342(9)|1371(16)|1394(9)|1423(4)|1448(5)|1475(9)|1500(9)|1527(4)|1550(14)|1573(14)|1600(7)|1631(8)|1650(17)|1671(6)|1696(17)|1719(13)|1744(4)|1773(4)|1798(18)|1821(7)|1846(7)|1871(2)|1898(5)|1925(8)|1950(6)|1973(7)|1996(12)|2021(18)|2048(9)|2077(11)|2104(14)|2129(14)|2154(11)|2177(7)|2200(16)|2227(15)|2254(2)|2281(3)|2308(12)|2329(18)|2352(8)|2377(16)|2402(16)|2435(7)|2462(11)|2483(10)|2496(13) 0 https://youtu.be/7Q7MfSDEZ-8 YouTube video English 0 Interview Introductions NADIA BUTLER: Hello, my name is Nadia Butler, and I am here today with Christine Penn to talk about her life and experiences in LGBT organizations in the Lehigh Valley as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. Our project has funding from the ACLS. We are meeting on location on May 8th, 2022. Christine, thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. 
 ; 
 ; CHRISTINE PENN: You're welcome.
 ; 
 ; NB: To start, can you please state your full name and spell it for me? 
 ; 
 ; CP: Christine Anne Penn, C-H-R-I-S-T-I-N-E, A-N-N-E, P-E-N-N. 0 81 Beginning to Cross-dress CP: That was the first time I basically considered cross-dressing. So, I went up to my mom's closet or whatever and started putting on her clothes, which obviously didn't fit very well. So, I was kind of tiny at the time. [laughs] So but that then started the behavior I would say of cross-dressing or whatever for the rest of my life. And up until later, obviously I don't consider that a cross dress anymore. And it's sort of weird or whatever. Just to me or whatever, it's like I have an issue or whatever with saying that, that I was cross-dressing, because to me, it wasn't really cross-dressing. I would say that was the only time I was right dressing.
 ; 
 ; But at the time or whatever, since I was male, everybody would have seen this as cross-dressing. And later on, I actually found out that there was a term called cross dressers or whatever. So later on in my teenage years, I started telling a couple of people and I told them that I was a cross dresser because that's what I thought I was at the time, but anyway. 0 86 Early Childhood / Early Thoughts on Gender
 ; NB: So to begin, would you tell me about the early years of your life? Could you describe your childhood for us?
 ; 
 ; CP: [laughs] Wow, sorry. I recognized that I was different at about four years old. It's my second earliest memory. So all of my early memories are based on like trauma, I guess you could say. So I was in a car accident when I was three years old. That's my first memory. It's the only time that I remember in my whole life that I was not feeling like I was transgender. I didn't know what it was at the time or whatever, but during that car accident, it was not an issue. Every point whatever forward from that point after that, I would say it's been an issue. [laughs] 0 504 Conversations with Parents about Gender CP: So, I call it being lazy, but really what it was, was a matter of convenience. What I didn't realize is that my grandmother would occasionally make the bed, flip the mattress and things like that. I didn't know that she was doing that stuff. So, I went to school one day, and she came in to basically change the sheets and flip the mattress. And when she did, she found my stash of clothes underneath, which then she told my mother about. [laughs] 
 ; 
 ; And then my mother decided to confront me about what it was, and she told me about it in the morning, on a school morning type of thing. And she said I want to have a conversation with you about the clothes that were underneath the mattress, and I'm like, oh shit, I'm dead. But she didn't have time to talk about it in the morning. So, she decided that we're going to talk about it in the evening when she got home from work. 0 784 Life During Puberty / The ACME Lady CP: So, for the most part 12 and 13, in that time frame, were pretty depressing for me. I just felt absolutely horrible. I had no idea what the hell I was going to do, the whole nine yards. And I wrote a story [laughs] about the ACME lady. It's one of my Medium stories. I recommend you read it. So when I was 13 -- so I had formed a theory when I was younger that basically it's like, I must have felt this way because maybe I had some internal female parts that just people couldn't see. 
 ; 
 ; And that's why the doctor declared me as male and instead of as female. So, I was hoping that puberty was going to save me. I would start developing breasts and start being the true woman or whatever that I was. And so I was really hoping that biology was going to save me. And when I was 13, I found out that my sister had already started puberty. So, puberty had not started for me. [laughs] So it turns out that there was something going on, and puberty got delayed on me for a long time. 0 1114 Schooling CP: But anyway, managed or whatever to get through high school. I kind of -- puberty sort of didn't really kick in or whatever until it's about 18 years old. It was a little bit of depressing to me. I wanna say it was -- I don't want you to get the wrong impression, whatever I wanna say ii was like maybe slightly helpful, because at least whatever I was now fitting better in with the boys. 
 ; 
 ; So, at least I was now looking more like a boy, which then made life a little bit easier. In one ways it made life easier because now I wasn't standing out as much because now I looked a little bit more manly. It didn't help with my internal [laughs] at all, so it's like not really th direction that I wanted to go in at all. But at that point in time or whatever it was like, there was a lot of information or whatever I was not familiar with at the time, I really wish I was, there was no internet, things like that or whatever. 0 1382 Sexuality CP: So, I quickly found out that was like I was curious [laughs] I've had lots of feelings or whatever. My whole, let's say attraction thing or whatever had flipped. So, when I was going through, let's say the 12, 13, and 14, I had a real attraction to boys. And quite I had a crush on somebody on my track team in 10th grade, it's like [laughs]. 
 ; 
 ; I never told anybody this or whatever, but I'd be like I'd go gay for you, that's how hot he was and how much he like turned me on. But I would never do anything about it. It's like that would have been like social death to basically come out or whatever and ask a guy out or whatever and as you're being seen as a guy or whatever, that's just never was happening. When puberty kinda kicked in, it flipped. It flipped for me. So, at eighte -- like around 17 to 18 or whatever, all of a sudden whatever, I started liking girls. 0 1532 Finding Community to Confide In / UCLA LGBT Group
 ; NB: You mentioned talking about your childhood that you grew up around Philadelphia and stuff, and you also had two siblings. I'm curious, did you have anyone aside from the grocery lady who you confided about these feelings?
 ; 
 ; CP: I did not, no, so, and I really didn't confide with the grocery lady at all. She just basically thought that I was a girl, and I just loved the interaction. So, really I didn't confide in anybody, that was a secret or whatever, and I was deeply held or whatever and wasn't gonna tell a soul type of thing. So I would have liked to have confided it to my parents, but as I said or whatever, that thing did not go well. 0 2012 Considering a Name Change CP: Immediately I was like, oh my God, these people have the same experience that I had. And we started really connecting or whatever. And then they asked me what my name was, and I was like, I didn't have one at the time. So, they were like, great, we'll help you figure one out or whatever, what we'll call you or whatever. And they were like, do you know what your parents would have named you or whatever, if you were born a girl? And I'm like, yeah, I do. They would have named me Kathleen, and they're like, great, do you love it? Do you like it or whatever? It's like, maybe you should go with that. 0 2257 Writing Prospects / Trouble Finding a Steady Therapist CP: So, anyway, I kept in contact with these people for probably a couple of years. And later on, I was in the middle of a chat, and the moderator jumped in and he was finding the stories that we're talking about very interesting because it was like sharing life experiences or whatever. I was telling them about the ACME lady and other things or whatever that was going on. And the moderator said, you guys should really document your stories, you should start writing a book. So, nothing had existed yet. Who's that famous author, I can't think of her name, I can see her, the blond. 
 ; 
 ; NB: Tori Peters? 
 ; 
 ; CP: No, God, what the hell is her name? She basically released a book or whatever. I used to have it. I had to return it, [laughs]. She was probably the only sane person on Caitlyn Jenner -- when it was Caitlin or whatever. She's the writer, what's hell’s her name?
 ; 
 ; NB: I know who you're talking about but it escapes me as well. 0 2635 The Birth of Christine Anne Penn / Finding Renaissance CP: So that's how Christine Anne Penn came about. So, Penn quite literally is appending, that was going to be my writing alias name. And because my original last name ended in two Ns, I added two Ns on the end of Penn as a tribute or whatever as a linkage or whatever, it's just sort of my original last name. And from that time forward started my alias of Christine Anne Penn. 
 ; 
 ; NB: And what year was this?
 ; 
 ; CP: That was in, that was like in the 1999/2000 time frame is when Christine Anne Penn was born. And one of the first things I did was basically Hotmail, it just came onto the scene and I created an alias email address or whatever for me, so chrispenn
hotmail.com, I lost that email address later by the way. 0 3092 Struggle for Family's Acceptance
 ; CP: And at the six-month mark is when my wife and my parents kind of beat up on me and said, you can't do this. So, I was on a path to transition and I had come out publicly back then was not publicly as we know it today, there was no Facebook where you could make an announcement, there was no -- what you got, but that doesn't mean it didn't spread by word of mouth and things like that. I was having lots of problems in life, like I walked into a bar and this guy came up and was like, are you that panty wearing faggot? I’m like, oh, lovely. Like, who do you know? 
 ; 
 ; So, he knew my brother-in-law, my brother-in-law told him that I was transitioning, lovely. So I was having all sorts of issues like that or whatever, going in public or whatever and things like that. But the funny thing is that I was able to walk that back later when I did not transition, when I did not go through with it. 0 3571 Living Dual Lives NB: I'm wondering, you mentioned your wife and your kids, and you also mentioned the sense of your having like a split identity. Would you mind talking about that for us?
 ; 
 ; CP: Sure, so, I basically associated the two behaviors, my behavior as male or whatever with my name, Christopher. And I associated my behaviors of what I did as female or whatever as associated with Christine and for the longest time or whatever, that was my life or whatever. It's like, quite literally, I had two lives. And for many years, whatever it's like during that 1999/2000 time frame or whatever, definitely had two lives going on. Then, two very active lives. 0 3784 Reaching the Boiling Point
 ; CP: And in 2015 I reached a boiling point, that was major. I want to say, it started in January. It started in January, and I was like, this is -- I had separated from my wife in November. And in January, I was starting to realize that all of those commitments that I made, about raising my kids and being the father to them and the husband to my wife. Kind of like, I met all those, they were done, it's like my kids were now, my daughter was in college, my son was about to graduate high school. It was obviously -- my marriage was falling apart, with my wife we were now separated, and I'm like you've met all these commitments or whatever you're done, you don't need to live up to that commitment that you made anymore.
 ; 
 ; And I started thinking about that in January of 2015, and I was like, I don't know, I'm now older, and like is HRT even gonna still work, you know? Do I wanna totally upset my life or whatever and so on and so forth. And I would say for a good five months whatever, I was like, I don't know if I can do this, I'm too old, I have established a life. 0 4461 Finding Hope / Searching for a Therapist with Gender-related Knowledge CP: Just get back to the truck, and drive to the bridge and fucking end it. That's quite literally, that was the mode, that was the mindset I was in. It's like, I've had it, I cannot, I don't wanna even think about it anymore, it's not even worth working out or whatever, and so on and so forth. And my mind was just driving me fucking crazy and I decided to turn on a song. I had my phone with me and on my phone I had music, and I decided to just turn on some music or whatever just to get me back to the truck, and a song came on and that song changed my way. 
 ; 
 ; That song is Peter Gabriel’s “Don't Give Up”. And I wrote this down in another Medium story [laughs]. The words to that song connected with me on that day. So believe it or not, this has actually been documented now. The Medium story that I wrote was actually referenced by a paper in the UK. They used it as an example of how many different people that this song has helped, in suicidal situations. Because essentially what I did is I documented how I felt that day, and what I was thinking about how that song saved me. 0 5003 Health / Impact of Sports on Life CP: Oh yeah, absolutely. Sports has been a major thing in my life. So the whole transition and things like that, it's kinda like ignited this thing where it's like I needed to get control of my life. And getting control of my life basically, I changed a lot of things, and one of the things that I had changed is is that, I spent an awful lot of time going through marriage and things like that being sort of depressed.
 ; 
 ; And I drank a lot, did a lot of what I would say bad behaviors or whatever and things like that. And so when I separated from my ex, one of the things I wanted to do was basically get control of my life or whatever, get healthy again and things like that. And it started getting back into my -- if you go all the way back to high school and even some college or whatever, is like I was always in into sports or whatever a little bit and I was like, I wanna get back into things. I really felt that kind of like -- it was somewhere I needed to be [laughs]. 0 5334 Finding Transgender Community in Cycling CP: So, they were struggling with, we don't know how to tell you how to deal with these things or whatever because we don't normally treat athletic people who are going through HRT, and things like that and that was leading to problem. And I was having a lot of problems that they couldn't explain. And the funny thing is that I know what a lot of them are now, but it's, [laughs] So I've been through one hell of a medical journey. [laughs] but eventually that led to me is that I got connected with a woman who was starting up a transgender cycling team and that opened up a world to me. 0 MovingImage Christine Penn recalls her early/family life and relationship with gender, as well as her experiences with transgender positive communities online and in-person. INTERVIEW WITH CHRISTINE PENN MAY 8, 2022 Dear Reader, You may notice an issue trying to follow along watching the video or reading the transcript for this person. The repeating of the word "whatever" occurs frequently, as well as some incongruent thoughts smashed together. Christine Penn is aware of these issues and seeking treatment for them. Please do not allow it to distract you from the topics being discussed. It simply documents the human experience and where she was on her journey at the time. She asked the archival team to include this message to readers. NADIA BUTLER: Hello, my name is Nadia Butler, and I am here today with Christine Penn to talk about her life and experiences in LGBT organizations in the Lehigh Valley as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. Our project has funding from the ACLS. We are meeting on location on May 8th, 2022. Christine, thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. CHRISTINE PENN: You're welcome. NB: To start, can you please state your full name and spell it for me? CP: Christine Anne Penn, C-H-R-I-S-T-I-N-E, A-N-N-E, P-E-N-N. NB: Will you please share your birthday. CP: June 21, 1967. NB: Do you consent to this interview today? CP: Yes I do. NB: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized and made publicly available in online searchable formats? CP: Absolutely, why not? [laughs] NB: Do you consent to the LGBT archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats including films, articles, websites, presentations, and other formats? CP: I really hope that they do. [laughs] NB: Do you understand that you will have 30 days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review my interview. Identify any parts you would like to delete and or withdraw your interview from the project? CP: I'm looking forward to it. NB: Well then, let's get started. CP: Okay. NB: So to begin, would you tell me about the early years of your life? Could you describe your childhood for us? CP: [laughs] Wow, sorry. I recognized that I was different at about four years old. It's my second earliest memory. So all of my early memories are based on like trauma, I guess you could say. So I was in a car accident when I was three years old. That's my first memory. It's the only time that I remember in my whole life that I was not feeling like I was transgender. I didn't know what it was at the time or whatever, but during that car accident, it was not an issue. Every point whatever forward from that point after that, I would say it's been an issue. [laughs] So how I recognized it was is that I was doing something and I don't even remember what I was doing. But what I remember is the emotions of the situation. So I was doing something that my father did not like and basically he yelled at me and he basically said, boys don't do that. And I immediately just wanted to turn around and tell him I was like, well I'm not a boy. And I knew that if I told him that, that he would not understand, and I was eerily accurate. I kind of find that hard or whatever that I recognized what type of person he was or whatever at that such an early age. But that was like spot on or whatever, just like dad still doesn't support me very well today. [laughs] But that's what started it I guess you could say is that basically I did not feel like a boy, I want to say ever. I really felt that I probably should have been born a girl. I know a lot of people say that or whatever, but it's just an internal feeling that you have, and you just know it right off the bat. And that day it just pointed out that people didn't see me that way. And from that point forward, it just started a long series of issues or whatever that basically came up over time. So my next major incident when that happened at four, believe it or not it wasn't until I was maybe about seven. So even though I was aware of it and things like that, starting at that time when I was getting yelled at for doing girly things, it's really the first time that I started actively trying to fit in. So, in other words, I corrected my behavior that day because I was trying to make my parents happy or trying to make my dad happy. So, whatever I was doing, I stopped doing it and I started doing it the way that he expected me to do it. And that set up a long series of things that really took a really hard thing to get over because from that point forward, I was just correcting my behaviors constantly. Because if I acted naturally, I got in trouble for it. It is really what happened. So anyway, I wouldn't say that it was a major problem during those early years. So, but I was watching TV, and I was watching a commercial. [laughs] And I remember this commercial, it's like it happened yesterday. But there was this girl, and she was playing dress up on the commercial. She was basically playing in her mom's closet, whatever, putting on her mom's clothes, doing her makeup or whatever, and I was like, I want to do that. [laughs] I so desperately want to do that. And that was the first time that I basically, quite literally, went and did that. That was the first time I basically considered cross-dressing. So, I went up to my mom's closet or whatever and started putting on her clothes, which obviously didn't fit very well. So, I was kind of tiny at the time. [laughs] So but that then started the behavior I would say of cross-dressing or whatever for the rest of my life. And up until later, obviously I don't consider that a cross dress anymore. And it's sort of weird or whatever. Just to me or whatever, it's like I have an issue or whatever with saying that, that I was cross-dressing, because to me, it wasn't really cross-dressing. I would say that was the only time I was right dressing. But at the time or whatever, since I was male, everybody would have seen this as cross-dressing. And later on, I actually found out that there was a term called cross dressers or whatever. So later on in my teenage years, I started telling a couple of people and I told them that I was a cross dresser because that's what I thought I was at the time, but anyway. So anyway, that started at seven. When I was nine, nine is the first time I considered actually transitioning, even before I even knew that it was possible. I'm like this is serious enough that I should probably tell my parents. And at the time, I thought transition was gonna be, we're gonna go down to the store, we're gonna pick out a whole new wardrobe. [laughs] And we're gonna come home, and we're gonna start just dressing as a girl all the time or whatever. And basically, we'll just go to school and live life as normal, and everything will be absolutely perfect. So, I started thinking that way, but I really never acted on it. So, in other words, I never told my parents about it the whole nine yards. But I started thinking about that a lot, but I never quite got up the courage [laughs] to do it. At 12 years old, I got caught. So, it's kind of funny, it's like I didn't know I was caught [laughs] until later. So, when I was nine, we moved to -- originally, I grew up in Philadelphia and when I was nine, we moved to Bensalem which is a suburb outside of Philadelphia. And when we did that, my grandparents moved into the house with us. So, they sold their house. My parents sold their house. They helped my parents. I didn't know it at the time, but they helped my parents get the house. And essentially my grandparents moved in with us and my grandmother used to do a lot of the housework and I had gotten lazy with my cross-dressing. I stopped putting clothes back. [laughs] So a lot of times what I would do is I would basically go into my mom's room, basically take stuff, and then I would typically put it back after I was done with it. Well, what I realized or whatever is like some of the clothes I was borrowing never got used, other than by myself. So, I stopped putting clothes back. [laughs] And I basically just started leaving them underneath my bed, which was much easier because now I didn't have to worry if somebody was going to be in the room or in the house. I only had to worry about my room. So, I call it being lazy, but really what it was, was a matter of convenience. What I didn't realize is that my grandmother would occasionally make the bed, flip the mattress and things like that. I didn't know that she was doing that stuff. So, I went to school one day, and she came in to basically change the sheets and flip the mattress. And when she did, she found my stash of clothes underneath, which then she told my mother about. [laughs] And then my mother decided to confront me about what it was, and she told me about it in the morning, on a school morning type of thing. And she said I want to have a conversation with you about the clothes that were underneath the mattress, and I'm like, oh shit, I'm dead. But she didn't have time to talk about it in the morning. So, she decided that we're going to talk about it in the evening when she got home from work. That was a very hellish day for me cause, what it did was, it gave me about eight hours to think about what I was going to do. And during that eight hours, I decided it's that okay, now is the time to come out to tell them what's really been going on. And I wanted to tell them that I wanted to transition. So, I'm thinking -- so, I started envisioning this wonderful, loving conversation with my parents where I finally tell them. And mom's gonna come embrace it wonderfully, and we're gonna go shopping this weekend, and we're gonna get new clothes, and so and so. That is not the way the conversation went [laughs] at all. So basically, when I got home, that was my goal. I was like, I'm telling them this is driving me crazy. It's like nothing has changed. This has been going on since I was four years old. It's time to come clean and let them know. So anyway, mom came home from work. Immediately, the first thing she wanted to do was have dinner. I was ready to go. It's like let's have this conversation now and so on and so forth, and I can't wait the whole night. And the end result is that we ended up having dinner. After dinner, the conversation is not moving. So, I'm like mom, can we have that conversation now? [laughs] So I'm super excited because I'm ready to spill and she says there was some laundry in the laundry room. She goes, take this upstairs. When you come down, meet me in the family room. So, I take it upstairs to wherever it was going to. It was dropping off some clothes in the bedroom and came back down. And as soon as I turned the corner to come into the family room, my mom just blasted me. It was like, why the hell, basically really angrily. It was like, what the hell are all these clothes? Are you gay? And I started getting hit with all this horrible conversation that I was just not expecting at all. So instead of opening up, sorry, I'm getting a little emotional. I closed up and all I wanted to do is basically get the conversation to end because basically she was just yelling at me and accusing me of being gay and so and so forth. And so instead of telling her what was really going on. The end result is that it didn't go well at all, and I ended up not telling them. And that turned into a really shitty time for me. I was really wallowing. You know, it's like what the hell do I do now. That was a chance, and I blew it and so on and so forth. And I lost access to my clothes for a little while. [laughs] I was a bit more careful after that. It did not stop me from dressing up. It's just that I actually stopped using mom's clothes a little bit more and I had a younger sister, her clothes fit me better anyway. In fact, when I finally came out, one of the things I did is I apologized to my sister. I said I was stealing your clothes for years [laughs] the whole time we were growing up. [laughs] I laugh about it now and she never knew, never even picked up on it, never even knew and I'm so sorry. Anyway, I laugh about it now but it's pretty serious to me. So yeah, I knew everything in her closet that fit me. [laughs] And everything that did not. So, for the most part 12 and 13, in that time frame, were pretty depressing for me. I just felt absolutely horrible. I had no idea what the hell I was going to do, the whole nine yards. And I wrote a story [laughs] about the ACME lady. It's one of my Medium stories. I recommend you read it. So when I was 13 -- so I had formed a theory when I was younger that basically it's like, I must have felt this way because maybe I had some internal female parts that just people couldn't see. And that's why the doctor declared me as male and instead of as female. So, I was hoping that puberty was going to save me. I would start developing breasts and start being the true woman or whatever that I was. And so I was really hoping that biology was going to save me. And when I was 13, I found out that my sister had already started puberty. So, puberty had not started for me. [laughs] So it turns out that there was something going on, and puberty got delayed on me for a long time. I didn't know it at the time or whatever when I was 16, a doctor actually wrote a note about it in my chart, which I didn't find out until I was like 46 years old by the way that they had written down that note when I was 16, that they had noticed it as well. But I'll have to tell you that story later. But any rate or whatever, when I was 13 or whatever, I found out that my puberty has started for my sister and that was like even worse. That made me like seriously, like I would say almost like suicidal. And then and then I walked into a store and this lady addressed me as miss, and I was like holy shit, you know somebody can see me for who I really am. And I started going to the store all the time just to interact with that lady because she thought I was a girl. At the time or whatever it was part of -- so I know today or whatever, there was sort of probably an underlying medical condition sort of going on. And that probably played into it and it's played into the way that I looked as well. So I looked -- I was very skinny. I was growing very tall. So, if you look at like little girls today as they're growing up or whatever, they get kind of like they get to this like really skinny awkward phase or whatever, [laughs] that's probably what I looked like. And when I went into the store, or whatever, just talked to this lady or whatever, I'm pretty sure that's what she saw and just assumed that I was that I was a girl. And that went on for a couple of years and I would say that lady kinda saved me because it's like she recognized or whatever is like who I really was and that interaction or whatever kind of saved me. So, instead of going even further down the suicidal path, just because I was so depressed at the time, just that interactions or whatever with that lady kind of saved me through that period of my time. And I never got to thank her, that's what my story is, it's like I never got to thank her. And I ended up throwing her under the bus later on [laughs] so -- which I felt, I still feel horrible about it to this day. So, I don't know if you wanna hear that part of the story or not [laughs]. So, I was constantly having problems off and on in school, basically being looking like a girly boy, at times or whatever, I would get picked on. It's a very common story or whatever is, I think every one of us goes through it at some point in time. So, what I had found is that if you acted like a badass [laughs] then people picked on you less [laughs]. So, I had recently [inaudible] basically trans -- well, eighth and ninth grade or whatever basically move schools or whatever. I would go into catholic school, all the way through eighth grade and when I went to ninth grade, I went to public school. And I'm like, here's a chance or whatever to kinda start over again, and I'm gonna try to act like a badass, so I'm not getting beat up all the time. And so, I hung out with this really bad, I would say bad crowd of boys, [laughs]. And I was trying to act as a badass with them, and we ended up going into the ACME, and we ran into that lady, and she addressed me as miss and the guys that I was with picked up on it. And the one guy or whatever said to me is like, yo dude, she called you a girl, you're gonna let her get away with that [laughs]. And I came up with like a snide comment, I was like, thank you very much sir, whatever. And she looked at me like really weird, and we left, and it's like I saved my face with the boys or whatever, but I was like I just ruined my, the only thing that was going on that was positive in my life with her and I never got to apologize to her for that. So, there's some sorta weird circumstance whatever, I don't know if she was retiring at the time, but she ended up leaving the store. I went back and I tried I tried to go talk to her, I wanted to tell her what was really going on, [laughs] and why I did that, and tell her why. And I never got a chance or whatever to tell her, and she ended up leaving the store and I lost contact with her. So, I was like I feel really bad about it, it's one of the worst things I think that I ever did in my life. And I wrote a Medium story about it, [laughs] which kinda goes through some of those details. But anyway, managed or whatever to get through high school. I kind of -- puberty sort of didn't really kick in or whatever until it's about 18 years old. It was a little bit of depressing to me. I wanna say it was -- I don't want you to get the wrong impression, whatever I wanna say ii was like maybe slightly helpful, because at least whatever I was now fitting better in with the boys. So, at least I was now looking more like a boy, which then made life a little bit easier. In one ways it made life easier because now I wasn't standing out as much because now I looked a little bit more manly. It didn't help with my internal [laughs] at all, so it's like not really the direction that I wanted to go in at all. But at that point in time or whatever it was like, there was a lot of information or whatever I was not familiar with at the time, I really wish I was, there was no internet, things like that or whatever. I found out or whatever that, -- and by the way I was pulled out of public school at the end of 10th grade, and I was shoved back into catholic school. And for 11th and 12th, that was probably a good thing in the long run [laughs] because hanging out with that bad crowd at the public school. I probably would have crashed and burned, probably would have never went to college, or did anything that came along later in life. Which is sorta what happened to my older brother, [laughs] my older brother hung out with -- with a bad crowd too, and he ended up not going to college and things like that, and they felt that it was the school or whatever that influenced his decisions and things like that. That turned him that way, which my parents were like, well we're gonna fix that for a second kid, I'm the middle kid. So, I have an older brother and a younger sister, and I'm the middle kid, and they threw me back into catholic school. That did turn things around for me, when I was thrown back into catholic school, it was an academic type of place as opposed to the public schools, I would say a little bit more social. Social was first, academic second at the catholic school was academics first, social second. And I felt right back into let's go fix the academics, which then got me back on the path, whatever to basically go to college and I ended up going to college and I -- that's another long story in itself or whatever. But I went to college and I did -- overall I did fine there. Graduated, got a degree and basically went on with my life per se. But anyway, from a trans perspective, by the time I got to college or whatever, I was looking more masculine, so I fit in a little bit more. I was still trying to play, trying to be the best man, I guess you could say that I could be, yeah, it's getting very used over let's say playing that role. So, I wanna say it's sort of like acting but it kinda -- you get to the point of whatever where have you done it for so long it sorta becomes I would say normal acting, but it's still an act. It's kinda hard to explain that or whatever to people who haven't been through that experience or whatever, where you feel one way but you're trying to you're trying to do everything to kind of like fit in type of thing. So, it's kinda weird or whatever to kinda like go through that or whatever but you kinda get used to it. If you didn't do it for a really long time, it just becomes second hand, and that's the way I felt that it got for me, it just became second hand. It's like I know how to do this, I know how to fit in someone and so forth. Like I've learned how to do this, I can do it and get by per se. So when I got through college, basically I went through college or whatever, essentially that way. There was an LGB group in college there was no 'T' [laughs] I would have really have liked to have met a 'T' in college that would have been really cool. I did check out the LGB group and that was social death, at my school or whatever. It is like if you went -- if you hung out with the LGB people or whatever, that was like you were social death or whatever. It's like they had their own little clique or whatever and that did not interact with the rest of the let's say the normal college students or whatever. So, I quickly found out that was like I was curious [laughs] I've had lots of feelings or whatever. My whole, let's say attraction thing or whatever had flipped. So, when I was going through, let's say the 12, 13, and 14, I had a real attraction to boys. And quite I had a crush on somebody on my track team in 10th grade, it's like [laughs]. I never told anybody this or whatever, but I'd be like I'd go gay for you, that's how hot he was and how much he like turned me on. But I would never do anything about it. It's like that would have been like social death to basically come out or whatever and ask a guy out or whatever and as you're being seen as a guy or whatever, that's just never was happening. When puberty kinda kicked in, it flipped. It flipped for me. So, at eighte -- like around 17 to 18 or whatever, all of a sudden whatever, I started liking girls. And that worked out well [laughs] cuz I ended up getting, in the long run, getting married and having kids and things like that. Funny thing is that when I started HRT, it flipped back. So, it's like -- and that's to me or whatever that was not a surprise [laughs] cause it's kinda like when testosterone really wasn't doing much of anything. It seemed like I was going down the path or whatever of being a normal girl whatever and being attracted to boys or whatever. So, when I flipped over to estrogen or whatever, it was like yeah, that was not a big surprise whatever that would flip back again. So just, it's kinda really weird or whatever when shit like that happens, it's like you don't necessarily expect it. So, but anyway, that's why it's like I have serious issues or whatever with labels, basically calling somebody like gay or lesbian or things like that or whatever because it's like, yeah, I'm pretty sure that I could have identified with just about any one of those labels at some point in my time or whatever does it really matter? And I was like, I don't really care at this point [laughs]. You wanna call me gay fine, you wanna call me a lesbian technically you'd be correct in that too. Do I consider myself like straight? Yeah, [laughs] the funny thing is that overall I'm sorta more on the asexual side. It's like, yeah, I have the attractions or whatever, but it's like there's no real big push to go do anything. So it's like not a whole lot of motivation [laughs] I guess you can say. NB: You mentioned talking about your childhood that you grew up around Philadelphia and stuff, and you also had two siblings. I'm curious, did you have anyone aside from the grocery lady who you confided about these feelings? CP: I did not, no, so, and I really didn't confide with the grocery lady at all. She just basically thought that I was a girl, and I just loved the interaction. So, really I didn't confide in anybody, that was a secret or whatever, and I was deeply held or whatever and wasn't gonna tell a soul type of thing. So I would have liked to have confided it to my parents, but as I said or whatever, that thing did not go well. Didn't go well later either, but that was a clear pattern across my life or whatever. So, we haven't gotten to that, it's like I tried to come out in -- so to me or whatever it was like, I think I did a story or whatever it's like for The Gay Journal. And basically, I came up with five times I attempted to come out [laughs]. So that first interaction with my father, that was a chance or whatever to come out that I blew. So that was one. [laughs] So there was, when I considered transition, when I was nine, that was considering or whatever coming out again or whatever, that was two. So, the 12 or whatever was number three, when I got caught and considered coming out again and that failed as well. I actually did come out in 1999 and then reversed. And then I came out again in 2015, 2016 time frame, that one stuck [laughs]. So that's the one where I actually went through with it. So, to me or whatever, I came out like five or attempted to come out three times, actually did come out twice, only one, actually worked [laughs]. So, in 1999, when I came out or whatever, that was after -- it's kinda funny or whatever, it circles around my exploration with the Internet a little bit. So, in 1994 I went to work for Honeywell, which is where I'm still working today. And Honeywell was actually on the Internet, but the Internet in 1994 was not the Internet that we know today. So, the Internet in 1994, there was like almost no World Wide Web. It was mostly interconnected, like mail servers and -- or call them like FTP servers or whatever, like file transfer type of mechanisms. But I don't wanna say that they were called FTP at the time they were called something else, and I can't think of -- not remembering what the hell they were called. But basically, you had like a whole bunch of like dial up interfaces, you could dial up and basically connect into your mail and things like that. So, the only thing that was kinda like on the internet back then, was defense contractors and colleges and the government, that was it. So, Honeywell was a defense contractor, that's why they were on the internet. So, and I had a lot of interaction with that, I was working as a network administrator at the time, as a network engineer [laughs]. And I was basically managing a piece of Honeywell's network. I had managed other networks for other companies before I came to work for Honeywell. So it was nothing new. But Honeywell was the first company that I worked for that was actually on the internet. And because I was a network engineer or whatever, I subscribed to a couple of magazines at the time. One of them was Network World, and I was reading an article in Network World bulletin boards. That's one of the things that, [inaudible] think of at the time. You can connect to bulletin boards whatever on the internet or whatever. Nobody had like web servers up, but they would have like a bulletin board service, which was kind of like a messaging service and things like that. Anyway, I read a story that UCLA, University of California, Los Angeles, was converting their bulletin boards to be now connected onto the internet directly. And they listed the groups that were basically within the college or whatever that basically had bulletin boards. And one of the things they listed was LGBT, their LGBT group, had a bulletin board and they were converting that over to the internet. And I was like, I had recently through other, let's say other research, had recently found information about transgender people. So, somewhere in the 90's, that term or whatever started to, I wanna say float around, [laughs]. And I wanna say whatever, is the term had existed or whatever for many years before that, but I wanna say it was more in in academic circles, it wasn't necessarily in public use. And I wanna say in the 90s, whatever, it started to become more public, where you could actually go to the library and find something to read about it. And I had recently discovered it. And at the time I, whatever I was thinking, it's like, I'm pretty sure that I've been transgender my whole life. Prior to that time, or whatever, I was thinking that it was primarily a cross dresser, because that was the activity that I was doing all the time. But, to me or whatever, it was never quite satisfying, is a good word to say cause it's all it basically did was reminded me of the predicament that I was in. So, it's something that I felt that I had to do, but basically it just reminded me is that this isn't temporary for you. And then when I looked at myself in the mirror, it's like, it didn't look right. And I was like, I look like a guy in a dress, [laughs]. I didn't wanna be a guy in the dress, I wanted to be a girl in the dress. And basically, getting dressed up or whatever just reminded me, I was like, no, I'm a guy in a dress. I feel like I'm a girl, but I look like the guy in the dress. Anyway, so, I started finding out information about transgender people. So, when I read that article about UCLA converting their thing, and they had an LGBT group, T being the transgender piece or whatever, and they spelled it out, they didn't say LGBT. They put in lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and immediately or whatever that was like holy shit or whatever, [laughs]. There's this group in UCLA of transgender people. And later on, I was on a business trip out to Phoenix and I decided to go onto the internet to see if I could find the UCLA bulletin board system, to see if I can talk to these transgender people. And I ended up finding them, so, there wasn't a Google, [laughs] at the time to go find it. There was a couple of other search engines or whatever, there was a couple of search engines or whatever before Google. Believe it or not, these things existed. They weren't very good, [laughs]. They weren't like Google is today. So, you really had to know what you were looking for or whatever in order to find things, and so on and so forth. But I was able to find them and I was able to connect to them. And one of the first, when I connected to them, I got into this chat group. And one of the first things they asked me is, what is your fem name? I didn't have one at the time, [laughs]. It's like, holy shit, so, this is another Medium story by the way, I have documented this as well. It's how my name came about. Basically, I connected with these with this group of other transgender girls and they started asking me questions or whatever. Immediately I was like, oh my God, these people have the same experience that I had. And we started really connecting or whatever. And then they asked me what my name was, and I was like, I didn't have one at the time. So, they were like, great, we'll help you figure one out or whatever, what we'll call you or whatever. And they were like, do you know what your parents would have named you or whatever, if you were born a girl? And I'm like, yeah, I do. They would have named me Kathleen, and they're like, great, do you love it? Do you like it or whatever? It's like, maybe you should go with that. And I'm like, well, the only problem is that I had a younger sister and she got the name instead, [laughs]. So I said, yeah that doesn't work, [laughs]. So, they're going back and forth or whatever, it's like do you have a favorite aunt or whatever that you like? Or a family member, so on and so forth. And I'm like, no, I've kind of -- so my deadname was Christopher, and I was like, never really like Christopher, never fit. So basically, I had, going by Chris, my whole life, Chris to me was gender neutral, it could go either way. That, to me or whatever, the name that I had decided on. And everybody just called me Chris. And I was like, no I'm pretty su -- I've settled this a long time ago in my head or whatever, so, Chris is fine, I just need to change the gender of it. So instead of Chris it's Christopher, we'll just make it officially as Chris is Christine instead. So, where were we, [laughs]? NB: I believe you were talking about, it was the late 90s, you discovered this -- CP: Okay, yep. So anyway, I was like no, Chris is Christine or whatever, it's fine. And I said, we gotta change more than that or whatever, I have a middle name, it's Albert and I'm like Albert has never worked either. And I was like, we're gonna change that too, and I said Albert was married to Ann, and technically my grandmother's name is Anna. But she hated Anna. She always, always had everybody call her Ann instead of an Anna. To her, Anna was an old lady, and she wasn't old, at least she was old to me, but in her eyes she wasn't old. And so she always had people call her Ann. So when she wrote out her name, she wrote out A-N and then she slanted the last A, so that it looked more like an E. And I remember her telling me that story or whatever, and I was like, I'm like, well, instead of you know her husband or whatever, and I was like, I'm gonna flip it to her, only I'm gonna spell it A-N-N-E. In tribute to her. And I ended up, so, at that point or whatever, Christine Anne was born. And that was enough, that's all I needed to do at the time. And it was never really gonna use Anne on the website or whatever, it's just gonna be Christine on the website or on the bulletin board. And that's what started it. But anyway, I found out later my sister is Kathleen Anne as well and she's Kathleen Anne with an e because my mom, her mother had told her the same story. So when she named my sister Kathleen Anne, she also did the same thing. But anyway, I am Iike, Christine Anne and Kathleen Ann, yeah, that's different enough, I'm not changing it again or whatever. We're sticking with Christine Anne with an E, [laughs]. But anyway, my sister is Christine Anne without an e, she's Ann, period. But she dropped it specifically because of the same story that my grandmother told me or whatever only I went with the A-N-N-E. So, we are technically two different Anns. I'm Anne with an E and she's Ann without it, without anything. So, I'm like, that's different enough, I'm not changing it again. So, anyway, I kept in contact with these people for probably a couple of years. And later on, I was in the middle of a chat, and the moderator jumped in and he was finding the stories that we're talking about very interesting because it was like sharing life experiences or whatever. I was telling them about the ACME lady and other things or whatever that was going on. And the moderator said, you guys should really document your stories, you should start writing a book. So, nothing had existed yet. Who's that famous author, I can't think of her name, I can see her, the blond. NB: Tori Peters? CP: No, God, what the hell is her name? She basically released a book or whatever. I used to have it. I had to return it, [laughs]. She was probably the only sane person on Caitlyn Jenner -- when it was Caitlin or whatever. She's the writer, what's hell's her name? NB: I know who you're talking about but it escapes me as well. CP: Anyway, she had not released her -- NB: Jennifer Finney Boylan. CP: Yes. Jenny Boylan, Jenny Boylan's book had not come out yet or anything or whatever. So, we were all encouraged or whatever to basically write our stories down or whatever and share it with the world or whatever. It's like people should know about our stories or whatever in the whole nine yards. And I took that to that to task. I actually did, I started documenting my story, I started writing down whatever, all my experiences, whatever in the whole nine yards about coming out and things like that. So, after getting in touch with these people at the bulletin board or whatever, one of the first things I did is, I'm like I need to talk to somebody about this and figure out what I need to do and so on and so forth. So, I started seeing psychologists, there was no such a thing as a gender therapist at the time. So, life was harder back then, in the late 90s than it is in the, let's say the later 20s or whatever today, totally different time frame. Everything was not easy as it is today. I can even tell you more stories, [laughs] more stories about that. You wanna hear them all? Okay. NB: Absolutely. CP: So I started seeing a therapist or whatever and I came out to my first therapist or whatever that I went -- I'm gonna call him a therapist, but they were technically psychologist. Basically, I set up an appointment with a psychologist or whatever, and I told her what I wanted to talk about. And I did this emotional dump on her. And basically, it's like I cried my freaking head off or whatever. And it's like I've been hiding my whole life or whatever and went through the whole story, and so on and so forth or whatever. And our second appointment, so I got through all of that or whatever the whole nine yards, it was like a two-hour appointment, where it's like I think I cried probably for 90% of it. And just dumped on her. I was thinking of all the turmoil or whatever that had been through and struggling with this and the whole nine yards or whatever. The second appointment I had with her, she's like, yeah, this is way too complicated for me to handle, [laughs] and she sent me to a second psychologist. She goes I haven't dealt with this or whatever. She is obviously whatever, it's very emotional for you and you're struggling with this and the whole nine yards. She goes, I don't have the expertise, but I have a friend of mine that I think you'd be better off with. So, she referred me to a second person. And then I started seeing the second psychologist, the second psychologist or whatever. And I ended up overwhelming her. Who then sent me to a third psychologist. And this is the way things went back then. Quite literally it's, like I said, there was no gender therapist and things like that. And I would say the majority of the medical community weren't even aware that transgender people existed and the type of emotional problems that they had and things like that. So, basically it was just being tossed from one to another. That was a little hard I guess you could say. So, the last psychologist I went to see told me, she goes, you're finding information faster than I can, [laughs] I still had access to the internet, she did not. Okay, so I was telling her about, basically it's like I really want to seriously consider starting HRT or whatever and things like that. She had never even heard of HRT. And I'm like, well the people out in UCLA are telling me there's this medical thing that you can go through and so on and so forth. And she said, supposedly or whatever, you have to go see a doctor and you need a letter for that, can you give me a letter? And like she's like I have no idea what the hell you're talking about. I'm like Jesus, this is gonna be like really tough. But anyway, I ended up not getting that far, [laughs] Anyway, back to the -- I started writing my story. I was sitting on another business trip on a plane coming back from Phoenix, Arizona this time to Pennsylvania. And I started writing my story and I was starting to think about publishing it. And I basically, I was not out at the time, and I was like, I didn't necessarily want my family knowing about it and things like that or whatever. So, I didn't necessarily wanna associate my name with the family because I wasn't out to them and I didn't want necessarily anything coming back. So, I started building what I would say a dual identity, okay? So, I'm sitting on the plane and I'm thinking is like, I need a pen name and over and over and over again, I'm thinking I need a pen name, I need a pen name. And it was like, I have a pen name, it's Penn, [laughs]. So that's how Christine Anne Penn came about. So, Penn quite literally is appending, that was going to be my writing alias name. And because my original last name ended in two Ns, I added two Ns on the end of Penn as a tribute or whatever as a linkage or whatever, it's just sort of my original last name. And from that time forward started my alias of Christine Anne Penn. NB: And what year was this? CP: That was in, that was like in the 1999/2000 time frame is when Christine Anne Penn was born. And one of the first things I did was basically Hotmail, it just came onto the scene and I created an alias email address or whatever for me, so chrispenn
hotmail.com, I lost that email address later by the way. But yeah, I would say that really started what I was considered the start of a dual life. So when I was female, I was Christina Anne Penn when I was male, I was Christopher Lunemann, was my original last name, which I now considered by the way a maiden name, I don't like to call it a dead name. Because I'm like if I was born right, and would have got married then it would have been a maiden name, and we would have dropped it. So, in fact I mentioned that in my name, change story or whatever, so I was like yeah, obviously whatever, just like yeah. Sean Penn after he dropped Madonna hooked up with me, we got married in Vegas, and it's such a pain in the ass changing your name, which it really is it pain in the ass changing your name. I just decided not to change it back. So hence Christina Anne Penn, and then I apologize and basically said, yeah, Sean, I don't remember that trip to Vegas either. So anyway, Christine Anne Penn was born around, we'll just say 2000 or whatever, just to narrow it off, because I don't know exactly, I don't remember exactly what it was, but it's somewhere in that time frame. But anyway, one of the other things that significantly happened is that like my, one of my psychologists, whatever, she suggested that I join a support group. And that actually put me in touch with the first transgender person I ever knew, which was, God I keep on forgetting names. I'm drawing blanks on names all of a sudden. I found Renaissance of Philadelphia is what I found, and God, what the hell is her name? This is pissing me off, I might have to fire up my computer and look some of the stuff up. She was pretty freaking awesome or whatever, and I didn't meet her physically until like I wanna say like 17 years later, but I had awesome conversations with her on the phone. So, I ended up finding out that Renaissance had a Lehigh Valley chapter and instead of going to the Philadelphia one, they ended up tossing me over to the Lehigh Valley one. And I joined the Lehigh Valley Renaissance, and this was around the 2000 actually 1999 because -- I know this because upstairs I actually have the magazine still. In one of my first meetings, I bought the Transgender Community News, which was a magazine that Renaissance was publishing at the time. And I bought the May 1999 edition at my first meeting I ever went to with Renaissance. So, and I still have it to this day. So, it was not the May meeting, I want to say it was the June meeting, they were selling the May -- the prior month's book or the prior month's magazine at the June meeting. So, June of 1999 I think was my first transgender support group meeting. So, it had actually taken several months to get in, by the way. So back then, okay, you couldn't go out on the internet and see where they're meeting and just show up, they didn't publish things like that. So, what you had to be is you had to be vetted. Angela [Gardner], what the hell is the last name, okay, it's coming back, it's Angela somebody and I can't think of her last thing at the moment, but she was the president of Philadelphia Renaissance. So, she's still active in the community to this day, but I first -- basically I found a telephone number for Lehigh Valley Renaissance, called was nervous as hell called them up and left a message. They didn't answer -- it wasn't manned telephone line, they just basically -- it was a voice mail and I left a voicemail and then Angela ended up calling me back later. And she vetted me. Basically whatever is like her job was to basically find out who I was, was I a crazy person or whatever, what I wanted and someone and so forth. And eventually I made it through her vetting process. And that's when I found out whatever that they had a Lehigh Valley group or whatever and then I was basically put in contact with the president of the Lehigh Valley chapter. And she then vetted me again before they shared the information of where they met and things like that or whatever. And basically, I was told, we meet on this -- the funny thing is that they were meeting on the second Saturday of the month, they continue to meet on the second Saturday of the month to this day that goes back to like original. So, but it was not they were not meeting at the MCC -- I don't know if you've ever been to Lehigh [inaudible], have you been to Lehigh Valley Renaissance? NB: I have actually, yes. CP: You have, okay. NB: I think we met there once prior. CP: There's a good chance we have, I have not been there recently but I had been attending from 2015 to -- we'll say 2015 the current, so it's not 2022. So, I've been going fairly regularly for the last seven years. So, this is back in 1999, so I basically I joined them or whatever, but the first time I went, I went as male. Second time I went, I went dressed. That was the first time I had actually ever left the house being dressed. So back in 1999 or whatever, that's the first time I actually went in public in fem. Had never gone in public before that. Never had left the house or whatever, still dressing in a closet. Had been dressing in a closet since I was seven years old or whatever at that point or whatever, I was now 33, so this is when I was 33. And that was the first time I had ever gone out in public in fem, and I went to my second Renaissance meeting in fem. So, it was quite the experience the first time or whatever, it was quite the experience the second time. I went for about six months. And at the six-month mark is when my wife and my parents kind of beat up on me and said, you can't do this. So, I was on a path to transition and I had come out publicly back then was not publicly as we know it today, there was no Facebook where you could make an announcement, there was no -- what you got, but that doesn't mean it didn't spread by word of mouth and things like that. I was having lots of problems in life, like I walked into a bar and this guy came up and was like, are you that panty wearing faggot? I'm like, oh, lovely. Like, who do you know? So, he knew my brother-in-law, my brother-in-law told him that I was transitioning, lovely. So I was having all sorts of issues like that or whatever, going in public or whatever and things like that. But the funny thing is that I was able to walk that back later when I did not transition, when I did not go through with it. So, my parents, not really my parents, my mother and my wife or whatever ganged up on me. And basically, my mom or whatever, she laid down what I would say is the worst thing that you could ever tell to a transgender person, but basically she said if you're really a woman then you know that you put everybody else's life in front of your own. So, she goes if you are really a woman then you will put your kid's life and your wife's life in front of your own, and you'll stay in the end for them. And that hit home for me, it's like I knew exactly what she was talking about, and I stopped transitioning basically, it's like now I made a commitment to my wife, to be the man for her. And Two kids were young at the time, my daughter was like six and my son was three, and it's like now we're gonna go back in the closet. Well, the intention was not to go back in the closet at the time. The intention was to basically nope, we're gonna stop doing this, and we're gonna ignore it, and we're gonna try to live the best life that we can as a man and be the father to my children and be the husband to my wife. And I went back in the closet for another 15 years. And I want to say for about six months, I didn't get dressed, I didn't do anything, I stopped going to the Renaissance meetings. I stopped writing my book, that came to a halt. So, I could have been a famous author like Jenny Boylan, I could have released my wonderful transgender story and gone through transition and release that as well. And it could have been a famous author, but nope, never happened. So, I stopped writing the book because nothing was going on, I wasn't transitioning anymore. I lost my contact with UCLA. I stopped looking at my Chris Penn email that I set up with Hotmail, and that's when they deactivated my account because it wasn't active anymore. And when I did that, I lost contact with all the UCLA people, cause I had no way of contacting them again. Which that was always a little problematic too because those people were kind of like they would come in, and they were college students, so they graduate and disappear. It wasn't like Facebook or whatever, like you become friends with something, and you can stay friends with them for the rest of your life. I only had contacts or whatever for people that were active college students at the time, they would come and go. So basically, it's like if you went, how do you get in touch with somebody who isn't there anymore, you know type of thing? So, I never ended up going back to the bulletin board system anyway. So, by the time -- after 15 years ago, but I wouldn't even know how to connect with the UCLA people at all or if there would be any reason to, so on and so forth. But the end result is that my wife always knew, when we were dating I told her is that I'm a closeted cross dresser, and she was okay with it. Which is part of the reason why I ended up marrying her in the first place, this is like if you could deal with this then you're a keeper. [laughs] She kind of like thought it was a little kinky or whatever. She was like as long as it stays in the bedroom and so hence why I was a closeted cross dresser and never went out. You know, because essentially I never left the house. Did have a couple of minor incidents as the kids were growing up. Apparently or whatever, I sleepwalk on occasion. I had dressed and fallen asleep and apparently, I slept walked around the house and my daughter saw me, and she then decided to tell her day care. It was like my dad dresses up in dresses at home. That did not go over well, because the daycare then confronted my wife and my wife then came and yelled at me, she's like we had an agreement or whatever, you don't you don't show the kids this, and I'm like I didn't show the kids this and apparently whatever your daughter knows, and I'm like, oh shit, I'm like how the hell did she find out? So, the best that we can find out, whatever it is that I probably slept --or slept walk one night or whatever, and she saw me. Believe it or not, that's how we, that's how we ended up with part of this Pocono house that we're currently sitting in. So, this was the second house when I was married, this was my house, it was always my house. I always fell in love with this area, whatever my -- we did make an attempt or whatever to let's say, live here full time as a primary house, but my wife couldn't stand it up here, so we ended up moving back down south, like the Landsdale/Montgomeryville area is where we -- where I met her and that's where I spent a lot of my time raising my kids down in that area, and this became a second house, and this was my weekend house, or whatever, to basically go away and get dressed and have a fun weekend by myself and I could come up here and we would, we would still spend like holidays and things like that up here, it wasn't just my getaway house, but it was very important for me to have like a getaway house. I needed a place to go. To basically -- so, most of the time when I was here, any time I was here by myself or whatever, I was -- I was dressed, in fem didn't typically go out. Basically, I would come up and go grocery shopping or whatever and then spend the whole weekend in them or whatever, but really never left the house. It's part of the reason why we're back here, kind of like we're in the back of a development or whatever, not really a whole lot going on here. It's not -- not a single neighbor ever noticed a thing. Pretty quiet back here. So that's how that's, believe it or not or whatever that, the location of this house where it is, why it exists, and things like that are very much tied into my life and continues to be. When, I got divorced, I was like, I'm keeping in this house. So, and my wife or whatever knew that, she's like, yeah, that's always been your house. It will always continue to be your house. She had no problems with it, had problems with lots of the furniture in it, which is, which did not go very well, and I've not really replaced. So, I had a very nice table at one point in time. I had a very nice sectional and things like that. They left when I got divorced and this got -- this was a really old table or whatever and that was like borrowed furniture and things like that or whatever it's like, I really need to replace a lot of these things, but I haven't really done so. But yeah, it's all tied in, it's all tied into the story, so. NB: I'm wondering, you mentioned your wife and your kids, and you also mentioned the sense of your having like a split identity. Would you mind talking about that for us? CP: Sure, so, I basically associated the two behaviors, my behavior as male or whatever with my name, Christopher. And I associated my behaviors of what I did as female or whatever as associated with Christine and for the longest time or whatever, that was my life or whatever. It's like, quite literally, I had two lives. And for many years, whatever it's like during that 1999/2000 time frame or whatever, definitely had two lives going on. Then, two very active lives. And what really became -- I wanna say is that basically I had two very active lives running like 50/50, for I want to say a good six months. And then transition came to a halt and then became a 90/10 split. Now it's like 90% Christopher and 10% Christine. And that's the way it stayed for about the next 15 years or so. And that 90/10 split was like Christine did not go away. She disappeared for about six months and then came roaring back. It's like, we can't stay -- cannot not do, let's say, these private behaviors or whatever and things like that or whatever. It's like I just can't live that way. And eventually what happened is that over time or whatever, Christine, I call her, I always say it's like she was the second person, whatever. But it's like really what happened was, is that, over time or whatever, it's like it started creeping, she started creeping up. Christine was yelling or whatever, it's like I can't be held in the closet [laughs] forever, and basically, eventually you just start exploring or whatever and so on and so forth. And you start -- now you go out in public, and you venture on public or whatever, see how it goes. So, I remember one time or whatever leaving the house or whatever, and it's like nervous as hell or whatever, but instead of getting dressed and coming back down to like the Landsdale area, whatever I drove and back then or whatever, it's like there was no EZ Passes. I actually had to pay a toll. I actually had to stop and interact with somebody and hand them money, and I was like, oh my God, whatever, what are they gonna say or whatever It was like dressed in fem. Of course, they just said nothing or didn't even notice it. I was just one in 40 million people that they collected money from that day, but to me or whatever, it's like harrowing event or whatever. It's like, oh my God or whatever, it's like, so on and so forth, it's those little things like that, that sort of like start out. It's the simplest things or whatever, just like, going to the gas station for the first time or whatever, and filling up your car when you're in fem or whatever and things like that. Everything's like nerve wracking, it's like, I'm gonna get found out, somebody's gonna be like oh transgender person, kill them. [laughs] But any rate or whatever, it's like, you kind of just keep on doing that. And the funny thing is that the more you do it, then the more it just becomes normal. And then all of a sudden it's like, now you have just -- now you have like two normal lives. It's like everything's got to like kinda normalizing or whatever on both sides. Over time or whatever, it just became, it's like, you know, this is the life I've always wanted to have. And in 2015 I reached a boiling point, that was major. I want to say, it started in January. It started in January, and I was like, this is -- I had separated from my wife in November. And in January, I was starting to realize that all of those commitments that I made, about raising my kids and being the father to them and the husband to my wife. Kind of like, I met all those, they were done, it's like my kids were now, my daughter was in college, my son was about to graduate high school. It was obviously -- my marriage was falling apart, with my wife we were now separated, and I'm like you've met all these commitments or whatever you're done, you don't need to live up to that commitment that you made anymore. And I started thinking about that in January of 2015, and I was like, I don't know, I'm now older, and like is HRT even gonna still work, you know? Do I wanna totally upset my life or whatever and so on and so forth. And I would say for a good five months whatever, I was like, I don't know if I can do this, I'm too old, I have established a life. Now we're talking about 2015 [laughs] we're up to May of 2015. All of a sudden in May of 2015, right around Memorial Day, I get hit with anxiety, it was not, and it was not a good time. So, during that six months, or whatever, that had passed whatever, since I'd separated from the wife for whatever, I was having a lot of financial problems. Basically, when we separated, the way that we had done finances is that -- I made more money than she did, and my paycheck went basically paying for like all the bills, like car payments, and car insurances, and mortgages and so on and so forth. But by the time my paycheck paid off all those things, there wasn't any money left. So, my wife had also worked. So, her money was the fun money or what I call the fun money, but it really wasn't necessarily fun money like it was the grocery money. And it was what we bought clothes with and all the stuff that you do outside of life or whatever. It's like my paycheck was basically sucked up with living, the mortgages, the health care, all of the necessities I guess you could say. But when we separated, essentially, I still had all those obligations. And now she had all the fun money [laughs] and no obligations. So, I'm like, you need to take over your car payment. I need to free that up, so I can go grocery shopping for myself, and she was like, well no, I'm not doing that. So basically, I was going broke, it was like I couldn't feed myself. And if I stopped paying like her car payment or whatever, it was like primarily on my credit to begin with anyway, so it's like all I'd be doing is screwing myself. I was in financial trouble big time, and that created a lot of stress. And then at work at the time, there was a financial slowdown and my work was doing furlough programs. So, in other words, basically, every two weeks, you're gonna get a day less pay. Rather than lay you off or lay off a bunch of people, were gonna basically cut back. We're now only gonna pay you for nine days out of a 10 day for work rate. So basically the end result is that my paycheck was going down. [laughs] So basically whatever I'm getting inundated with, I have no free money, I can't even go grocery shopping for myself, my paycheck or whatever is getting smaller, I'm basically getting screwed. So, I'm like, I need to get divorced right now, I need to force her to basically take over her obligations or whatever, so I can get money to free up, so I can basically go grocery shopping and live. And I had no way out, I had no money to hire a lawyer or anything like that or whatever. I did finally talk to my parents and basically, they lent me the money to pay for a lawyer to basically force her into divorce. Because she did not want things to change, whatever. She's got somebody paying for all of her stuff or whatever, and she's living wild and free and now has a shitload of extra money because now she doesn't have to do anything for me. So anyway, basically going through that through the normal stresses of life or whatever. So, it's not like work or whatever was going away. I now have the stress or whatever, finances, whatever going on or whatever, the whole nine yards. I did not need any other stress that's going on in my life when I went up like gender dysphoria, hi, I'm here. And by the way, I'm going to fuck you [laughs] and I'm gonna screw you over, like, as bad as you can be or whatever. And basically whatever, and that started in Memorial -- I don't know why Memorial Day or whatever, but it's like, right around that time frame or whatever. It's kind of like, you need to transition, and you need to do it now [laughs] and then quite literally, it was like a little voice in my head or whatever. It was like, yeah, you met all your obligations, you need to transition, you need to do it now. Your whole life is screwed or whatever, so we're just gonna screw everything. At any rate, that hit me in May or whatever, and quite literally, I just had the super anxiety or whatever. It was driving me freaking crazy or whatever. It's like -- it was going nuts, and I'm like, I can't do this, I can't handle this right now. It's like, I can't do that or whatever, the whole nine yards. My gender therapist or whatever basically said the stress of all those other things basically brought that stress to life, is really what happened. It's kind of like a frequent thing or whatever they see in us or whatever, it's like one stress situation kind of like bubbles up another one. It was definitely happening to me. And basically, it was just driving me crazy or whatever, and I'm like, and I was still thinking or whatever, it's like, is HRT even gonna work or whatever. It's like, I can't pass to save my life or whatever. It's like every time I go out in public or whatever, it's horrible, you know? And this isn't worth it. I quite literally started getting suicidal, and I picked a drop-dead date. My drop-dead date was July 4th, 2015. I said if I can't figure out what the hell I'm doing by then, I'm done, I'm ending it. And July 4th came around, and I was like I've had it, I'm done. I don't wanna go through the turmoil of transition, I can't keep living or whatever, the way that I am. I don't wanna live as male anymore. Basically, it's like I'm done, and I planned it. I started to execute it. So north of here, so this believe it or not, this goes back to cycling. So, part of the reason why I live here is because I fell in love with things like the D& ; L Trip. So, the D& ; L Trail is a trail that basically goes from Bristol, Pennsylvania all the way up to Wilkes-Barre, and it runs through the Lehigh Gorge right here. The Lehigh Gorge is, quite literally, three miles that way. So, this development is on the edge of whatever of the Lehigh Gorge State Park. So basically, you walk down the end of the block here, you walk into the Gorge State Park, and then from there to a mile or whatever is the river, but it's also a river and 1000 ft drop. So we're about 1000 ft above the river. But anyway, I was writing through all this time or whatever that I had the house up here, whatever, okay, I wasn't spending all my time in the house, let's say dressed up. Now I would go out and I would basically go ride a bike up and down the D& ; L Trail. I was very familiar with, well, to this day or whatever I can tell you about like every inch of the trail from here, all the way up to White Haven. So, at White Haven is the Interstate 80 bridge that goes across the Lehigh Gorge. It's about an 800 ft drop, from the Lehigh -- from the bridge to the gorge, or to the river. People have driven off that bridge. I knew people had driven off that bridge. People have committed suicide driving off that bridge. There's probably like about three or four people a year that do it. That's what I decided I was going to do. I was basically going to drive up to Interstate 80 or whatever and drive off that bridge. I was not going to call a hotline. I found out or whatever, my life insurance had a suicide clause. So, I was not gonna document it, not gonna do anything. I wanted it to look like a tragic, tragic accident, basically or whatever is just basically, I live in the area, or whatever. So, it would be like, it's not like I haven't driven across that bridge before. So, I knew exactly where to hit it. The whole nine yards, or whatever, basically I planned it the whole nine yards. Because it was July 4th weekend, I had been riding my bike all weekend trying to figure out, a way out, to not go and commit suicide. And when I left the house and basically said that's it, I'm done or whatever, I'm driving to the bridge. I realized or whatever that might bike was still in the back of my truck. That truck down there, the one that I still have. That was the truck that I had at the time, still have it. [laughs] Anyway, my bike was still in the back of the truck from -- because I had ridden the trail or whatever the day before, and I said, let's do one more bike ride. If I can't solve it on this bike ride or whatever, I'm not coming home, put the bike in the back of the truck, and we're driving off the bridge. [Inaudible] the beginning of the bike ride or whatever went absolutely horrible. I was still thinking about everything negative, I was thinking about it if I came out or whatever, and it's like everybody would have to know, my kids didn't know at the time or whatever. I was thinking that my auto mechanic has to know. Everybody in the area, or whatever is gonna find out, someone and so forth or whatever, it was just focused on everything negative, and I was like, I can't pass whatever, is HRT even still work for me, someone so forth or whatever it's like do I really wanna put myself through this? And the end answer was, no, didn't wanna do it. So eventually whenever I turned around on the bike and then I was headed back and I was gonna basically drive straight to the bridge or whatever, drive off the damn bridge, and I could not settle my mind down. My mind was just micro focused or whatever on, I've had it, I'm done thinking about this, I don't wanna do anything. Just get back to the truck, and drive to the bridge and fucking end it. That's quite literally, that was the mode, that was the mindset I was in. It's like, I've had it, I cannot, I don't wanna even think about it anymore, it's not even worth working out or whatever, and so on and so forth. And my mind was just driving me fucking crazy and I decided to turn on a song. I had my phone with me and on my phone I had music, and I decided to just turn on some music or whatever just to get me back to the truck, and a song came on and that song changed my way. That song is Peter Gabriel's "Don't Give Up". And I wrote this down in another Medium story [laughs]. The words to that song connected with me on that day. So believe it or not, this has actually been documented now. The Medium story that I wrote was actually referenced by a paper in the UK. They used it as an example of how many different people that this song has helped, in suicidal situations. Because essentially what I did is I documented how I felt that day, and what I was thinking about how that song saved me. So basically or whatever it goes through, it's a song or whatever and really what it does is it applies to just about any depressing type of situation. I would say go listen to it if you're not familiar with it, or go read my Medium story because I go through the story line by line and equated to what I was thinking about at the time or whatever and how that line connected with me. I had listened to that song probably 20 million times before that day, and never got the meaning of it. It's like I knew the words to it, but it never connected with me, that day it connected with me. And when I got back to the truck instead of driving to the bridge, I came back here instead, and the day after, I called my insurance company or whatever looking to basically go talk to a gender therapist or psychologist again. I had not spoken to one in 15 years at that point, from back to the 2000, you know, when I had spoken to him one last time and of course whatever as soon as I told them, what I had just been through over the weekend. They were like, please hang up and call the transgender suicide hotline. And, I'm like, no I think I'm okay there now, I'm not going to do that, but I really need to speak to somebody. And I did and it took about 2.5 months to find somebody. My company's health plan did not support anything transgender related. So, they did not have a list of gender therapists to give me to call. All they could give me was basically just mental health professionals. So, I ended up going through a list of like about 50 people, I think the 48th person that I called, was actually somebody who was familiar with gender related issues. And I ended up making an appointment with him, and he's the guy that actually wrote my letter to start HRT, or one of them [laughs]. What a unique guy, [laughs] I did not want a guy to talk to. I always found that women are much more empathetic. So I was really hoping or whatever to find another woman. The psychologist that I had spoken to before like years ago, they were all women, and I really felt that I had connected with them, I did not think that I could connect that way with a guy. But he ended up being a really good guy for me to to talk to. And he did all sorts of weird stupid shit, that I thought was stupid at the time, but I got it later. I always equate him to like The Karate Kid movie, and Mr. what the hell is mojo or what the hell? What the hell is his name? NB: In Karate Kid? CP: Yeah. NB: I have no idea that might be a little before -- CP: I forget his name or, so basically he's like Daniel-san or the kid basically goes to this little old Japanese guy or whatever. And he's going to teach him how to do karate, and he puts them to work, and he's basically telling him, he's like -- he wants him to paint the fence. And you must paint it this way or whatever, it's like stroke up and down, no side to side or whatever, it has to be up and down or whatever the whole nine yards. And then he has him wax his car, and basically once in the wax or whatever, doing these circles or like this, things like wax this way, wax on, and then off with your left hand. So basically, he's like teaching him, all these things, whatever Daniel-san or eventually gets pissed off or he goes, you're supposed to be teaching me karate and you're doing all this weird shit. It's like, I don't know anything or whatever, and then basically they have this fight scene. He goes paint defense, so he tries to throw a punch and Daniel-san goes and does the paint motion or whatever, and it's a block or whatever for the thing coming or whatever. Then he's like, wax the car [laughs]. Each one of these moves is a karate move or whatever, and he was getting him used to it by doing these things, that made no sense. And that's exactly the type of shit that my gender therapist was doing. A great thing would be one of the first questions he asked me, he's like, if I told you to put a tutu on and go dance in front of your house, would you do it? And I was like no, it's freaking crazy or whatever, and all the people will think I'm nuts or whatever, and the whole nine yards. And it was nothing about that, there's nothing about, putting on a tutu, it was everything about self-confidence. And me not caring about what other people thought, and it's like, I did not get it [laughs]. But later on, I was like, now I know exactly what the hell he was talking about, so it's kinda like that Karate Kid moment or whatever. Where he's talking about things or whatever and you're not getting it, you know the whole nine yards, and then later on it becomes perfectly clear. And he did a lot of shit like that with me and, [laughs] it's like doing this crazy shit or whatever, it's like why the hell are we doing this, what the hell does this mean? And then later going, okay I get it. He ended up being, I would say the right person that I needed at the time, and he helped me out a lot. Kinda like bring me out of my shell, I guess you could say cause I was still primarily closeted at the time. And you know very afraid or whatever to go out in public or whatever because all my public experiences to-date was absolutely horrible, and they weren't getting any better [laughs]. And I wanna say for the next two years or whatever after that they didn't get any better [laughs]. And he was sort of like preparing, basically he's like you need to build up some tolerance or whatever and not care about what other people think or whatever, it's like you're doing this for you. You're not doing this for them and who cares what they think and so on and so forth. And he really instilled a lot of that into me, so got me to change my perspective on things, which was very important at the time, it's like if you're going down this path or whatever, those are the types of skills that you needed. And it's like he would say -- I would say he was the first person that actually really helped me. So, there's the psychologist that I had seen years ago, and they were not helpful. Telling somebody about it was actually helpful, but they weren't doing anything to help me per se, other than being a place to vent [laughs]. So, the funny thing is that I still have -- and I see a psychologist today, I don't even see a gender therapist anymore. But I see a psychologist today and I feel I'm back to, she's just a place to vent [laughs]. It's not really necessarily helping me, but I have not necessarily given up or I still have the need to basically go vent to somebody on occasion. So I kept her around, [laughs]. NB: I think that's a pretty good idea given where we're at right now CP: Yes exactly. NB: Well unfortunately, we are running out of time. We have about 5 minutes left. CP: Oh wow. There is so much more I can tell you [laughs]. NB: Oh my goodness. Well, is there anything, before we wrap this interview up the next 5-10 minutes, is there anything else about your life story that you wanna talk about that we haven't gotten to yet? CP: Oh yeah, absolutely. Sports has been a major thing in my life. So the whole transition and things like that, it's kinda like ignited this thing where it's like I needed to get control of my life. And getting control of my life basically, I changed a lot of things, and one of the things that I had changed is is that, I spent an awful lot of time going through marriage and things like that being sort of depressed. And I drank a lot, did a lot of what I would say bad behaviors or whatever and things like that. And so when I separated from my ex, one of the things I wanted to do was basically get control of my life or whatever, get healthy again and things like that. And it started getting back into my -- if you go all the way back to high school and even some college or whatever, is like I was always in into sports or whatever a little bit and I was like, I wanna get back into things. I really felt that kind of like -- it was somewhere I needed to be [laughs]. And it's sort of weird, the way that went because it's really driven a whole lot of my life later. And it's very much tied with my transition or the whole nine yards. And so before I transitioned, and things like that, but when I started -- the health kick really started before I got divorced and went through the whole suicide thing and the whole nine years. It really started with my thyroid went. My thyroid went and I started gaining a lot of weight, and I had been, let's say, an occasional cyclist at that point in time. In order to offset some of the weight gain that was going on with my thyroid, I started ramping up my cycling. I started doing more and more of it, as a way to try to control the weight gain or whatever that was going on. I found out later, the funny thing is that, it ended up playing into it helping me get diagnosed with a thyroid condition. So, it was creating a lot of cardiac issues at the time, the thyroid problem. So, I was also seeing a cardiologist and the cardiologist was just driving himself nuts. He could not figure out what the hell was causing all these cardiac issues going on. So, at a meeting he asked me, what did you do this weekend? And I'm like, I did a bike ride on Saturday and Sunday, and he goes, how far did you go? And I said, I did about 40 miles on each day, so I did about 80 miles, and he goes, how much weight did you lose? I'm like, I didn't, I actually gained 5 lbs. [laughs]. And he goes, you biked 80 miles over the weekend, and you gained 5 lbs., and I'm like, yeah, I said, if I didn't, I probably would've gained 20, and he goes, holy shit. And he says, are you seeing your -- my general physician or whatever again? And he said, yeah, he's sending me for another batch of blood tests, or whatever. He goes, I want to see if there's one on there, and he goes, if it's not, I'm gonna add one. And he added the test or whatever, to basically test -- I forget what it is or whatever, but there's something that basically elevates in your blood if your thyroid is not working. Mine was off the freaking chart [laughs]. So he added the test for it, and it came back, it was also a freaking chart or whatever, so. But at any rate I was ramping up my cycling of more and more, which was actually, getting me more and more into, like a fitness routine type of thing. And so, after I got on the thyroid medication, I stopped gaining weight. Now I was cycling to lose all the weight that I had put on, I had to put on over 100 lbs. From when my thyroid went, to where I was when we finally got on the medication. It probably would've killed me within 6 months if they didn't figure it out [inaudible]. So, my fitness cycle, getting into cycling just continued from that point forward, and I never stopped it, and that then led into transition. It's quite literally one of the reasons why my bike was in the back of the truck. So cycling was always a way for me to like get out in the middle of the woods, like up on the trail to think about things, it's like, what the hell do I do in this situation? It was a place that basically get some clarity and things like that. So, it fit very much into my life, and I always wanted to be an active person. I wasn't -- there was a long time where I wasn't as active, but I was like partially active. We would go camping, have a camping trailer out there [laughs]. Any place where everyone camping, I went out hiking, [laughs] things like that, wife and things like that would not, but I would grab the kids or whatever. It's like let's go on a hike, or let's go on a bike ride and so on and so forth. And, I was always attempting or whatever to be active. It's just that there's lots of times where I was not. Once I separated from my ex, then I just became more and more active, I was biking all the time and so on and so forth. When I started transitioning, I found that HRT and things like that had a major impact, on all of my athletic activities, and I was struggling with it, and my doctors, and things like that, they had never treated a person who was like an athlete at the time. So, they were struggling with, we don't know how to tell you how to deal with these things or whatever because we don't normally treat athletic people who are going through HRT, and things like that and that was leading to problem. And I was having a lot of problems that they couldn't explain. And the funny thing is that I know what a lot of them are now, but it's, [laughs] So I've been through one hell of a medical journey. [laughs] but eventually that led to me is that I got connected with a woman who was starting up a transgender cycling team and that opened up a world to me. So, I ended up joining because I wanted to connect with other transgender cyclists who were, are you having these types of problems. With somebody to talk to or whatever and things like that, cause I wasn't getting answers from like the medical community and things like that. It's like, well, let's -- I didn't know any other athletes, I didn't know any other cyclists or whatever who were transitioning and things like that or whatever. It was like, I didn't have anybody to talk to and joining that team gave me people to talk to and I'm still a very active cyclist today. I call myself a semi competitive cyclist, I'm not very good, [laughs] so you'll never hear about me. So, in other words, I'm not gonna be the next Lia Thomas of the world or anything like that. I'm one of the many, I don't wanna say millions or whatever, but let's say thousands of transgender athletes out there that are basically not that good. So they don't put a spotlight on us type of thing. So for every Lia Thomas of the world, I wanna say there's probably thousands of others that are just not making the headlines because if you're losing, then it's not a story, [laughs ]. So I've been basically losing for years. [laughs] I'm well aware of what women's sports is like. I see all the bigotry, I see all the misogyny, I also see the lack of participation and things like that or whatever, it's like I see all of the bad and good. There's lots of good as well, don't get me wrong or whatever but there's a whole other side of the world or whatever when you kind of open that up. And so I am by the way, I'm trying to get more women involved in sports or whatever because the only time I've ever won is by default. So eg. or whatever, if you only get three women showing up and one of them has happens to be a transgender woman. Guess what? All three of you are making the podium. [laughs] Okay, so the only time I ever managed to get onto a podium at an event is because by default, [laughs]. Any time I've actually competed with other -- and there's much more of a story here or whatever. I'm actually pretty good in my age group, okay, but I wanna say 95% of the time, I'm not racing my age group, I'm racing a lot younger people. And then the younger people are a hell of a lot better than I am. [laughs] So I cannot compete with the younger people. So 90% of the time, 95% of the time when I'm competing with the younger people, I'm gonna come in last. If I managed or whatever to get into a master's race where I'm actually competing with people my age, I actually do fairly decent. I also do better at some distance races and things like that, but I'm still not considered an elite athlete at all or whatever and I'm just an entry level type of person or whatever. But the fact that I -- that I'm out there competing or whatever is to believe it or not a pretty big step. Plus I see what it takes, it's like I have a full time job, I have a full time life that really gets in the way of trying to maintain an athletic schedule. And I know what it takes to be a mediocre athlete, [laughs] I don't have the time to put into to get to that elite level anyway. Because unless you've got somebody paying for it and you can do it like, let's say 24/7, you're just never gonna be able to make it there. So unless you're and it's not worth anybody to invest in me or whatever cuz I'm already almost 55 already in a master as it is anyway. So another, it's basically I'm not gonna be heading to the Olympics or anything like that anytime soon, [laughs] unless like half the population was to die off or something. [laughs] It's like if you're like the last person or whatever that they would choose to go, it'd be like me over a couch potato. Yeah, [laughs] but I have experience, I know what the competition is like, I know strategy and things like that or whatever, but it's I'm not good enough to ever make it to that level. So because of that, you'll never hear of me, the funny thing is that I meet all the other goals or whatever. So I'm big, I stand out, I look like I'm gonna dominate type of thing or whatever. But in reality, the answer is like, nope, so therefore you'll never hear about me. NB: Not happening? CP: What's that? NB: Not happening? CP: It doesn't fit their mode of the story that they wanna tell. But anyway, that's been tremendous to me. So, the girl who started up the team or whatever, that was the first transgender sports team ever. So yeah, so I was on the first ever transgender sports team, it was the transnational women's cycling team, and it existed from 2017 to 2019. We did three active seasons of racing, so yes, if you go look at my racing schedule. You will see that I actually did a couple of races or whatever where I was listed underneath the transnational women's cycling team. It's kind of interesting or whatever that I do a lot more than what I get credit for. So, there's only so many races or whatever they basically like count or whatever towards your, let's say, your official record. So, like for example, I do a race every Thursday night, you have to have a license to participate in the race. But it does not count towards your record, it's considered a training race. So, the idea is that basically you do that race to basically build up your skills necessary to participate in the real races. So, it's absolutely vital or whatever that you participate in a series like that, but you don't get any credit for it. So, it's like I've done like thousands and thousands of races, but I think my race record is like maybe 27 races, [laughs] It's not that impressive. But my experience level is significantly higher. [laughs] NB: Yeah CP: So like for example, I've done the Tour to Tucson twice, the Tour to Tucson is not an official USAC sanctioned race. The reason why a lot of people do it is, is that it's in the off season. So in other words, it's a bike race, it's primarily a charity bike race. And a lot of elite cyclists will actually go do the race, it just doesn't count, [laughs] to the thing. So, -- and I've actually done fairly well at that race, so like in the top third. So, like for example, the one year I came in 25th out of 133 women, I think. So that's decent, nowhere near the podium, [laughs] But that's, I'm not a slouch either. So I'm not in like the 33 women who came in like after the 100, [laughs] So, no, I was in like the top -- I don't know what is it? At the top, I'm the eighth or something. NB: That's pretty impressive. CP: Yeah, so, but anyway, so I do okay, nothing record smashing or anything like that or whatever, but it's like I can do pretty decent things. It's just that it's not that -- yeah, nobody cares. Well I care, [laughs] What it really comes down to is that I care, lots of my friends care or whatever and things like that. The cycling scene or whatever is a pretty social atmosphere or whatever, and I absolutely love the groups that I'm involved in and things like that. I'm in four different cycling teams, by the way, [laughs] NB: Wow. CP: So and I'm pretty active in just about all of them. Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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Christine Penn, May 8, 2022
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Christine Penn recalls her early/family life and relationship with gender, as well as her experiences with transgender positive communities online and in-person.
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Stories of Lehigh Valley LGBTQ+ Community Members (2022 - )
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Foltz, Mary
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Goodwin, Corrine
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5.4 October 11th, 2021 Corinne Goodwin, October 15, 2021 LGBT-12 01:33:58 LVLGBT Stories from LGBT Older Adults in the Lehigh Valley Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Goodwin, Corrine Foltz, Mary video/mov 1.0:|27(6)|58(6)|79(4)|98(15)|117(11)|136(14)|159(16)|182(5)|205(8)|226(11)|249(2)|266(10)|283(11)|300(2)|321(8)|342(10)|367(4)|390(14)|411(8)|426(15)|447(11)|470(7)|489(13)|508(8)|529(9)|550(6)|569(14)|592(15)|611(14)|634(9)|655(3)|674(6)|693(5)|708(4)|725(13)|744(4)|763(5)|780(3)|797(11)|816(9)|839(6)|858(9)|881(14)|900(11)|923(16)|944(8)|963(14)|982(15)|1005(13)|1030(7)|1049(12)|1076(4)|1097(13)|1120(7)|1141(3)|1158(8)|1179(7)|1200(13)|1221(6)|1240(4)|1261(9)|1282(11)|1307(2)|1328(2)|1351(15)|1376(12)|1397(6)|1418(9)|1439(14)|1460(10)|1479(5)|1498(3)|1521(6)|1540(10)|1559(12)|1584(2)|1605(5)|1628(11)|1649(9)|1670(4)|1691(5)|1710(4)|1727(3)|1746(14)|1767(12)|1790(2)|1807(3)|1826(9)|1843(7)|1864(12)|1885(2)|1906(9)|1925(15)|1948(3)|1949(2) 0 https://youtu.be/CZvOsnjajNk YouTube video 0 Interview Introductions 0 129 Early Life 0 163 Early Gender Questioning 0 273 Experiences During Puberty/In High School 0 590 College Experience 0 682 Navigating Marriage and Gender Identity 0 745 Coming Out to Wife 0 928 Career 0 1378 Coming Out and Socially/Medically Transitioning 0 1594 Code Switching as a Trans Person 0 1846 Gender Performance and Overcompensating as a Trans Person 0 2062 Living Outside of the Gender Binary 0 2215 Pre-Internet Trans Representation 0 2381 Early Online Trans Support Groups 0 2496 Beginning of Lehigh Valley Renaissance 0 2575 Finding Renaissance in the 2000s 0 2878 Expanding Renaissance 0 2965 Inception of the Trans Equity Group 0 3082 Beginning of Renaissance's Large-Scale Events 0 3226 Partnering with the Bradbury-Sullivan Center 0 3277 Mission and Services of the Eastern PA Trans Equity Project 0 3712 Leadership Journey for the Eastern PA Trans Equity Project and Breaking Away from Renaissance 0 4097 Supporting Trans People and Their Partners 0 4378 Experiences Coming Out to Broader Circle 0 4521 Negotiating Transition with Spouse 0 4591 Evolution of Marriage 0 4891 Vision for the Future 0 4977 Plans for Trans Equity Project 0 MovingImage Corinne Goodwin describes her childhood in Yonkers, Long Island, White Plains, NY, and Glen Falls ; she focuses on her experiences as a transgender girl and the transphobia within her family. For example, she shares how her mother responded when she found feminine clothing in her room by exclaiming that it would “kill” her father if he found out. Corinne describes hiding her transgender identity from family after these formative experiences even as she continued to express her femininity in secret. Upon entering Eisenhower College, Corinne continued to be closeted, but developed important life-long friendships and met her future wife, Deb. When they married one year after college, Corinne discusses remaining in the closet even as she had “girl” days in which she was able to express her full self. In 1987, when she and Deb found out that Deb was pregnant, Corinne came out to her wife. The spouses developed routines in which Corinne could be her “real” self when Deb and her son visited relatives. Corrine also discusses her work life. She describes her 23-year career with Radio Shack, managing hundreds of stores within eastern PA ; her work as Vice-President of Sales for Vonage ; and her development of her own consulting business and then training and development business. 
 ; 
 ; Once she left the corporate world and started her own businesses, Corine describes coming out fully between 2008-2014 to everyone in her life, including her clients and living full time as her real self. She describes different parts of her transition, including social, legal, and medical transition. In other parts of the interview, Corinne discusses the import of support groups, like Renaissance, and how she developed the Eastern PA Trans Equity Project with other community members as well as their major work in our communities.
 ; Mary Foltz Interview October 15, 2021 MARY FOLTZ: All right, I'll go ahead and start. My name is Mary Foltz, and I'm here with Corinne Goodwin to talk about her life and experiences in LGBTQ organizations in the Lehigh Valley. This oral history is a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. Our project has funding from the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium. Corinne and I are meeting on Zoom. Today is October 15, 2021. We're meeting on Zoom because there's a crazy pandemic going on, and we're protecting Corinne's health. We certainly don't, I don't want to get her ill, so that's why we're here on Zoom today. Corinne, thank you so much for joining me today. CORINNE GOODWIN: I'm really excited about it, thank you. MF: I'm excited about it too. And just to start, a few quick questions, would you be willing to state your full name and spell it for me? CG: Sure, my name is Corinne Dawn Goodwin, my name is spelled C-O-R-I-N-N-E D-A-W-N G-O-O-D-W-I-N. MF: Thank you. Will you please share your birthday? CG: 10/30/59. MF: Okay. And I know you already signed a consent form, but I just want to review the consent for today. So, do you consent to this interview today? CG: Yes, absolutely. MF: Do you consent to this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable formats? CG: I do. MF: Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats including articles, websites, presentations, or other things that technology might bring us in the future? CG: Yes. MF: And do you understand that you'll have 30 days after I send you the transcript of the interview to identify parts that you might want to delete, or you could withdraw the entire interview if you wanted to? CG: I do. MF: Okay. All right, formalities aside, I'm just going to begin with kind of a general question. Corinne, tell me about the early years of your life. CG: So, I was born in beautiful Yonkers, NY, the garden spot of the state. In 1959 subsequently moved pretty quickly. My parents bought a house in Huntington, Long Island and I spent the first few years of my life there. So, my very first memory that I can, like, you know, like say oh yeah, I really remember that, was actually there, and it was around my gender. So, I was probably three, maybe four, and I was playing with the little girl next door. Her name was Gina. I remember my house was painted yellow, her house was painted green, and we were in her backyard playing doctor, and that's when I realized that I had different anatomy. And then my next memory, and I'm assuming that it was in the same day or, you know, close to it, was sitting in the bathtub in my parents' house trying to figure out how they had glued my penis on, because they insisted that they needed a boy. So, I remember talking to my mother about my gender, right, and why was I different. She kind of, in no uncertain terms, said, "Well, you know, you're a boy, and boys have penises." And I remember like just trying to figure out how to get it off. So that's my actual very earliest memory. Yeah, so. After that, we moved to White Plains, NY, so in Westchester County. We moved into my grandfather's house, so he retired and moved to Florida, and we moved into his home, and that was probably around I was eight years old, so third grade, and during the next few years, that's when I really began to realize that I was different than most other people. Especially, I think this happens a lot for trans folk, you know puberty is such a crazy time for people anyway, but for me it was like ultra-crazy because you had to figure out, that's when you have to start sort of putting on the "guy suit" you know when you're a teenager or adolescent, right? Or the "girl suit" if you're, you're know, and I couldn't do either (laughs), so. But during that time, I remember becoming incredibly adept at shoplifting, and shoplifting women's clothing. And so, we would go to, my mother shopped at McCrory's, which was like a five and dime store, a lot. It was like a Woolworth's. And I remember you know just really becoming really good at shoplifting and boosting everything from, you know, panties, to pantyhose to skirts, you know, and I would hide it under the mattress of my bed, which is not a great hiding place, right? (laughs) But and then my mom found my stash, and that's, you know, and she made it, my father at the time was traveling a lot, so he was in the paper business, so actually I worked in the paper business for a very short time. I was the fourth generation. Everybody in my family worked for International Paper Company. But he was traveling a lot. He probably traveled three weeks out of the month typically, internationally, to paper mills all over the world, and doing technical support, and he was away on a business trip, my mom found my stash, and I remember very, very clearly her telling me that, you know, this was deviant behavior, and if my father ever found out, it would kill him. That was like, the exact words that were used. And, you know, of course, you know, everything purged and, but it lasted maybe like three weeks and then I started shoplifting again (laughs), so. And that sort of lasted through, all the way up through high school. So, we moved to Upstate New York. So, moving from like the New York City area where like life is sort of like fast and we would go into the city pretty regularly and you know very racially you know, kind of integrated area that I lived in, you know, the junior high/high school that I went to was probably you know 40/50 percent people of color, and then we moved to Upstate New York. Glens Falls, NY. Which, like in the Adirondack Mountains, and it was like going from like, you know, overdrive to first gear for me. And right in the middle of adolescence, and I became very depressed. Actually, you know, I would skip school all the time. Go steal stuff (laughs). Have a girl day. And I did that for like two years. So, I had been a straight-A student when we lived down in Westchester, when we moved to Glens Falls, I became a C and D student. And it wasn't until my senior year in high school that I didn't even realize it at the time, but I was fully embraced by the queer kids at school. Right? And nobody talked about it, right? Nobody said, like, are you gay or are you, you know, transgender. Are you this, are you that? You know, nobody was talking about this stuff back in, you know, 1975, 1976, 1977. Especially when you're in high school, right? Because there's so much stigma around the stuff. But you know, looking back on it, you go like, oh my God! I was surrounded by all these queer kids, and we all took care of each other. That's what was going on. And yeah, so, finally I found my tribe in my senior year of high school, and I became a straight-A student again because of it, which was kind of cool, because it allowed me to go to college. But yeah, so that was my adolescence, you know. Being told I was a deviant several times, and I was going to kill my father if he ever found out. You know in hindsight, I think my father may have been a closeted trans person, frankly. So, he would shave his legs, he wore underwear that, you know, probably could have been classified as, you know, could go either way. You know, male or female in sort of the way it looked. In hindsight, you know, when I kind of think about his life, you know, I think that he may have been a very closeted individual. Whether that's true or not, I don't know, right. He's passed on a long time ago, so. I would have loved to have been able to have that conversation, so. That's the early years, I guess, right? So, I went to college. So, I went to a really small, tiny liberal arts college called Eisenhower College. It's since closed. It was actually only open for I think 14 years. But it was a very intense sort of classical liberal arts education, where you know, we read everything from Plato to the Bhagavad Gida, to the Koran cover to cover, and studied world cultures all across the world. I was an International Relations and Asian History major, and actually used to be able to speak Chinese relatively fluently. Not anymore. But you know, when I was in college, you know, you have roommates and you're living, eventually I got a single room, but even then, you know, you're in such close proximity that, you know, Corinne, who didn't have a name at that time, but you know that part of me, went very much into the closet. But it was really a wonderful time. It's where I met my future wife. And you know recently have started to reconnect with my larger college community, although our closest friends in the world were from, are from college, so. My wife and I, we get together with them several times a year every year for the last, you know, 40 plus years. We, so after college, my wife, Deb, and I got married in 1982. 1982? Yeah. 1982. Because we graduated college in '81. So, in '82, and then Corinne came roaring back. You know, so after a five-year sort of hiatus. Although I wasn't stealing things anymore, I was going out and buying them (laughs), but you know, still very, very secret. Kept it all from my wife. And you know, very closeted at the time, but you know, expressing my femininity through clothing as often as I could. My wife is an avid churchgoer and a believer, and I'm not, so my girl time was every Sunday morning when she went to church, frankly. And then we got pregnant in 1987. And that's when I kind of had my epiphany, so literally, and this is probably one of the biggest regrets of my entire life, and I apologize because it gets me a little emotional. But literally the day that we found out that we were pregnant, is when I came out to my wife. And in my mind, I felt I had to. Because it wouldn't be fair to her, or to our child, to go through life without them knowing about this part of me at some point. You know, there was lots of crying, there was lots of conversation, and what a horrible time for me to come out to somebody (laughs). But you know, in my head, the logic in my head said that you know, this is like the do or die kind of time. You have to be honest with her. And you know, it took a lot of years of kind of negotiating, you know, and ultimately, we sort of settled on sort of a don't-ask-don't-tell life around my cross-dressing, or my transness. So, essentially what would happen is for the intervening gosh, 30 years, my wife would go visit her mom once a month, she'd take our son with her, they'd go visit her mom for a weekend, and I would have a weekend to be the real me. And we did that for literally for decades. For decades. And it was really hard. It was hard when my kid found my fake boobs (laughs). You know, and like you know, he comes out of the closet with his little buddy from across the street you know and says to my wife like you know, "Hey, what are these?" (laughs) You know? And you know, "what are they doing here?" And he found my stash of stuff that I thought I had hidden away pretty good, and my wife said like, "Oh, they're just like for a Halloween costume," or something like that. And when a kid is eight, that's good enough, right? But that memory came up years later when I came up to my son and he goes like, "Oh, well you know, that explains the boobs." So, yeah. So, for years, you know, I worked in the retail business, so I was, I started off, so literally I got out of college, I had a liberal arts degree, I had gotten into grad school, I had gotten into Columbia and Johns Hopkins and some other schools to continue my education, but I really decided I didn't want to do that. And so, it was in 1982 in the middle of like a horrible recession, and I didn't know what to do, so I got a job literally selling shoes. I was in the shoe business for three years, I guess, and then a friend of mine from college, actually a friend of both of ours from college, her dad worked for Radio Shack, the now-defunct electronics retailer, and she got me an interview with Radio Shack. I had a 23-year career at Radio Shack, so at one point or another I ran all of the stores in eastern Pennsylvania, so I ran about 300 stores for them. The biggest territory they had. And then I did that for like 23 years. So I left there in 2004, and when their business model really started to shift and I was not pleased with where the company was going and I was, you know, like 40-something years old and I go like, you know, if I'm going to move, I gotta do it now, because my hair's getting grey, and I'm getting fat, and nobody's going to hire an old fat and grey guy, so I actually went to work, through a contact of mine, I went into the telecom business, and I was a vice president of sales and distribution for Vonage, the internet telephone company, so that's what I did after Radio Shack. I went from like this really established kind of traditional organization into the start-up world, and literally my desk for the first two and a half years was a card table, and it was just the most fun I ever had in my life I think at work was for those two and a half years, and then we went public, and you know, we all thought we were going to get rich, and that didn't happen, but when you go from like this ultra-entrepreneurial startup environment and then you go public, and now you have to comply with all these regulations and stuff like that, it was a little bit of a shift in what was going on. I was recruited away from them to go to work for Sprint, and I was in charge of the sales, consumer sales side, for Sprint's 4G business, when they were starting at 4G. You know, we're now in the 5G, and 6G's you know, on the horizon actually too in that business, but back then 4G was like the hot new thing in the wireless business, so I was in charge of all of their national consumer sales distribution for 4G for Sprint. They, in 2008 decided to merge our division into a new company with another company, called Clearwire at the time so we were involved in all that kind of merger activity, and I was offered the opportunity to go work in Seattle, essentially doing what I was doing for the new company, or I could take like a half a million dollars. So, you know, and the guy I would have been working for out in Seattle who I'd, you know, been working with in this merger thing was just, he was an asshole, so I decided to take the money (laughs), which came in a bunch of different ways. It wasn't just like cash. But the package was pretty lucrative, and really that allowed me to sort of sit back and go, "What is next?" And so, you know, in 2008 I was 50 years old, and you know, I could try to continue in a corporate world, and kind of do what I was doing, or I could go out on my own. And essentially what that money allowed me to do was have the freedom to give doing something on my own a try. So, I started my own consulting firm, and that firm doesn't look anything like it used to when it started, but at the time I was doing consulting work for a bunch of companies, but the biggest one was a company called Retail Business Development, and our business model was to help retailers who were struggling, and so literally what we would do is you know, and they're primarily in the wireless and telecommunications space, but like maybe you own 30 retail stores selling Metro PCS, the wireless carrier, and you were struggling, we would go in and consult with you and help you fix your business. And in many cases that was we would sign an agreement that you would turn over the keys to your business. The entire business to us, for a period of two years. And we would fix it. And that might involve closing stores, opening stores, relocating stores, firing staff, hiring staff. I mean literally we would, some of these businesses we tore them right down to the ground and rebuilt them from the ground up. And so, that took me back into the retail business. I was running about 350 retail stores. I was their senior vice president of operations and business development, and in the two years that I was working with them, we tripled the size of the business, landed a lot of new national accounts through my contacts, like you know, we were doing all of the in-store sales for DirecTV at Walmart, for example. So, every Walmart in the country, and things like that. So, it was just, again it was sort of like in that start-up sort of real entrepreneur-y kind of world, but me and the owner of that business sort of had a parting of the ways. We just wanted to go in different directions with the business, and then so I kind of was back starting square one again, and what do I do? And turned my business into a training and development firm. Because training is something that I always really liked doing. So, our business now is where we develop training and development programs for companies, really globally, so we have clients in the Caribbean, clients in Turkey, clients in Europe, the United States and Canada, and all kinds of different businesses, ranging from consumer electronics to adult pleasure products, so yeah, so one of my clients is the largest distributor of adult pleasure goods in the world. And we've written, a lot of our course stuff is electronic course work, computer-based training. We've written over 150 courses for them on how to use products. So, I know a lot more that I thought I would about things that I never thought that I would be selling, but. It's been an interesting experience. So, that's what I do now. But what that allowed me to do is by working from home, it started to give me the freedom, you know, as my wife was at work doing her job, she's a medical practitioner, is that every day I was able to be who I really am. I was able to be Corinne every day. And so, really my coming out process, my true coming out process started in 2008, when I left corporate world and started my own business, because it gave me the freedom, working from home most of the time, to really just be who I am. And you know, I came to the realization probably in, I guess in 2011, that I had to come out and really be genuine. My wife and I had a lot of difficult conversations, because partners transition right along with us, and family members transition right along with us. I think the other thing, by the way, that helped me with coming out, was that both of my parents died. And it gave me the freedom, I guess, if you want to call it that, to not have to worry about killing my father, because he was already dead. To be perfectly blunt. And to not have to deal with the judgement of my mother, which I think would have been very traumatic. But so, I started my transition, you know, kind of the coming out process in 2008, 2010. I transitioned full time socially in 2014, I guess. When we moved back here to the Lehigh Valley that's when that really started, and then medical transition started in 2016, so you know one of the things that many people don't realize is that transition involves a lot of things, right? So, I was actually just giving a training last night to some college students, and you know, people tend to think about transition, they tend to think about operations and medications. But really, it's sort of social transition, and a lot of people sort of socially transition but don't medically or legally transition. So, for me, social transition started around 2010, legal transition was just a couple years ago in 2018, and my medical transition started in 2016, and it's still an on-going thing, so. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. MF: Thank you so much for sharing. I'm wondering about the period of your life before the social, legal, and medical transition. What was it like to be Corinne, you know, on Sunday morning, or these just sort of selected parts of your week? How did you navigate that? What was that like for you during that time period? CG: So, yeah. Well, difficult would be I guess the best adjective, but probably a few things. So, one of the real challenges, and remind me to tell you about the second one if I forget, but one of the real challenges, and many people with transgender experience who are sort of living in this, you know, back and forth world, and many, many, many, many trans people do-- matter of fact, I would say the majority of trans people do-- is you're code switching all the time. So, you are, you know, mentally you are, you know in my case, a feminine space, or in the case of a transmasculine person, a masculine space, or you know, a non-binary person as well, but you are always having to put on this act. And so, I would have my girls' weekend, but I would feel like I was an imposter, right? So you have imposter syndrome, because in my case, I have body hair, and facial hair, and I don't know how to do makeup, or you know, I don't know how to whatever, so if I would go out, I would be just totally paranoid about, you know, people staring at me because, well, I'm still paranoid about people staring at me, but in a different way, but is that, you know, you're just not practiced, right? And then, when you switch back into, in my case, you know, into "dude mode," you know, there's just like this sort of mental break, and it is just so fatiguing. It is just, it just mentally drains you. And whether it's the imposter syndrome that you have, or it's that sort of, you know, having to kind of mentally switch back and forth, is just so hard. And then the other thing, well, the other thing that's hard, by the way, is that just this idea that you're having to hide, right? So, you know I would get my outfit out, or my clothing out, whatever it is, and then you know, it was, I used to store stuff in like plastic tubs that was like you know hidden in the bottom of a storage closet underneath, you know, our books from college, right? And so, you have to dig it all out, and then you pull your clothing out, it's all wrinkled and cruddy because it's been sitting in you know, in the basement with mildew, and you know, you put it on, and you don't feel right, and then you know, but then you gotta rush and put it all back because you know God forbid if you know a neighbor knocks on the door, or whatever, so you're just in this constant state of fear of being discovered. And I think this is one of the things that's different for many people in the LGBTQ community, or I should say the LGB community versus the trans community, right? Is that LGB folks can navigate the real world, right? So, you're not necessarily, you know, you're sitting home, you're watching TV, you're not worried somebody's going to discover that you're gay necessarily while you're watching TV. But if I'm, you know, was watching you know the Sunday morning news shows, but I was dressed as whatever, my next-door neighbor comes over to borrow a cup of sugar, and I'm discovered. And that is just a little bit different. And I don't mean to discount the fear and the stigma that LGB people have, but there's sort of a difference between being able to sort of move through the world with a little bit of invisibility, I guess I would call it, versus as a trans person, you are very visible. Especially when you're in transition, or you're not fully transitioned, you haven't started to medically transition. It can be really challenging. The other thing that I wanted to get at was because of that imposter syndrome, at least I know, and many people of trans experience that I know, overcompensate. So, for example, there's been studies that show that transgender people join the military at highly disproportionate rates, because they want to, you know if you're transfeminine, you're going to prove your masculinity. And you're going to, you know, become like, you know, an "army man," and you know, sort of beat it out of yourself I guess, right? And I know trans folks who have become like, you know, amazing athletes because they're trying to prove their masculinity, for example, if you're a transfeminine person. In my case, I became like this type A business executive who, you didn't want to get in my way. Matter of fact, my nickname back in the day, was "Evil Dave." And you know, I actually like to think that I was a pretty good boss, and I've actually had many people who say that I was a very good boss, but man, you didn't want to cross me. And I can make people cry in a heartbeat, and I did it, and I liked it, frankly. You know, I mean there were times when if you just, so my motto at the time was "Just do what I tell you to do, it's going to be okay." Right? And I was just this, I could be a total, total, pardon my language, asshole. And I was really good at playing that role. And I have a lot of regrets about that. Not because of decision-making necessarily, I didn't make but because I could have treated people better and frankly it was all an act. It was all an act. And so, you know, that overcompensation led to me living a disingenuous life for 50 years. And I look at those 50 years as 50 wasted years, and frankly a lot of the work that I do now I think, if I was to really look deep into my soul, is about trying to make up for those 50 years, and do the right thing by people, and to help people develop, and you know, get on a path that's going to make it so that they don't have to be on the path that I was. So. Probably a little bit of a mission there, which by the way, I don't think is really unusual for people who get into social services. There's usually some sort of mission, motivation going on back in there, but yeah, so. That's one of the problems I think that trans folk have, right, is code-switching and then imposter syndrome are really, really, really massive. I am so proud, especially of young non-binary people, who nowadays are able to navigate or working to navigate gender in a different way, where you know, wouldn't it be wonderful if we didn't have to fit into a gender box? You know, where you don't have to be this macho dude, or this hyper-feminine woman. You can just be genuine to yourself and on this whole spectrum of masculinity and femininity, you just find your place, and people support you in that navigation and being comfortable with the fact that these thing evolve, and everybody is sort of on their own path, you know some people move quickly across that evolution, some people move slowly across that evolution, some people stop in the middle, some people move back and forth, and I really think that, you know, we are at an inflection point where over the next sort of probably 20 years, hopefully I live long enough to see it, that these gender norms are just blown up, and we just start accepting people for who they are in this area, would make me very, very happy to see that. Yeah. MF: I do want to talk about, you talked about your career, I want to talk about Eastern PA Trans Equity, but first, since we're sort of still reflecting a bit on your earlier years, I'm wondering what was your relationship like with LGBTQ community spaces you know, prior to your social, legal, and medical transition? Were LGBTQ organizations on your radar? Were they not on your radar? How were you kind of thinking about gay liberation, trans liberation, and you know, kind of movements that were going on in the 80s and 90s? CG: Yeah, so, you know, back you know in the 80s in-particular, and even the early 90s, right, it was pre-internet, or pre-internet as we know it now, I should say, and so the way that you got involved with the transgender community in-particular, is that you went to adult bookstores, and you picked up magazines. Whether it was female impersonator magazine, or there was one called "TV/TS Tapestry," which was put out by IFGE in Boston for years, and you know, in the back of these magazines would be ads. You know, so they were filled often with you know, just pictures of people of trans experience often in pornographic or semi-pornographic modes, but in the back of these magazines would be personal ads, or ads for organizations, and two of the organizations back in the 80s that I was familiar with was, one's called Tri-Ess, which is still around, so Tri-Ess is the Society for Second Self, is what the three Ss stands for. And then another one was Renaissance. And what I did is I would, where we were living, I would get a post office box, and you know, sneak into my post office box and pick up my, you know, Tri-Ess newsletter, or my Renaissance newsletter, and furtively read it to go, "Here, there actually are people like me," and "Look, oh there's a picture of a lady with really big hair!" you know (laughs) or whatever, but they would sort of tell their stories, sometimes there would be personal ads, but that's really how you kind of communicated and found community back in the day. At the time, we were living in Upstate New York in the 80s, in Glens Falls again, and there was nothing. There was absolutely nothing locally, so my transgender life was lived vicariously through others in these newsletters. And then the dial-up internet happened, and actually there was, before AOL, there was a service called PC Link, and it was actually the progenitor of AOL, and I was working at Radio Shack as a store manager at the time, and we would sell this PC Link software that allowed you to go through a dial-up modem and find you know communities and I found a transgender support group, or cross-dressers support group I think it might have been called at the time. And I remember dialing in, you know, two or three times a month and getting into these chat rooms, and you know everybody talking about kind of what they're experiences were. Some of them were very sexual in nature, other times the conversations were very much about navigating coming out, or finding doctors, or you know, how do you do various things. But it was all very tentative, and very sort of closeted, at least on my part. You know, so I would do it when my wife was in the other room, and you know I didn't want to offend her, because the last thing I wanted was for my wife to leave me because I was leading this deviant lifestyle, I guess. I didn't want to scare her. But that's kind of how you found community, was like through these sort of like you know stealth newsletters. Things came in plain paper envelopes, you know, and but back in the at least especially in the late 80s/early 90s things started opening up a little bit and I became aware of some of these support groups. And they would often have meetings, although not near where I was living at the time, but Renaissance in particular, which was founded by a woman named Joanne Roberts along with a couple of other folks down in the Philadelphia area actually, is where they started, started opening chapters around the country. So, for example they had a chapter in Albany, NY, which is 50 miles from where I was living, and I was never brave enough to go to one of their meetings. But the way that you used to go to these meetings is you would be given a phone number to call, and that phone number was at a phone booth. So, somebody would say you need to call this number at seven pm on the 14th of the month, right, and you would call, and then somebody would be at this phone booth to answer the phone, because it was all super-secret, and they would interview you. Literally interview you about, you know,about who you are, to make sure that, then they might give you permission to come to a meeting at a super-secret place. So, you like you know you had to know somebody who knew somebody and that's the way a lot of these things really worked. So, you know you kind of fast forward to 2008 when I was, really made the decision to explore transition, I was looking for support groups and locally in the Lehigh Valley here, you know, I went into google and said like, you know, "Lehigh Valley support groups," "Allentown, Pennsylvania transgender groups," things like that, and there was nothing. There was nothing. By the way, there actually was something, you just couldn't find it. So, I remember going like, you know, "there's gotta be something!" And then I remembered Renaissance, this national organization that had things. I went to their website, and it said there was a Lehigh Valley group! And I go, like, "Oh!" You know, "Big win! Congratulations, Corinne!" And there was a website, and there was an address you could send a letter to. A post office box. Well, the website didn't work. It was just a dead end. And the post office box, I sent like three letters to it, and nothing ever happened. And this is one of the problems with a lot of trans support groups, is that somebody starts one, and then they might leave. And then it falls apart, right? These things are sort of you know based community, very community based, but luckily a couple years later, you know, through my therapist, she goes like, "Oh, I know somebody who knows somebody, and I'll get you connected." And, lo and behold Lehigh Valley Renaissance was there, it was just hard to find, and you had to go-- the phone booth was gone, so that was good news. But you know, you had to know somebody who knew somebody who knew where the meeting was and what time it was and where it was and things like that. So, I showed up for my first Renaissance meeting in 2014, maybe? 2015. And walked in, and I found a group of mature, white, women, trans women, some of whom identify as cross-dressers, some of whom identified as transgender, and I walked in there's like a little bowl of potato chips and you know, some cold pizza, and you know, iced tea, and I go to pour myself a glass of iced tea and this one person walks up and they said like, "Oh, you're new here." And I go like, you know, "Yes," and I remember going to this thing and man did I dress up. Like, I was wearing high heels and stockings and a killer skirt, and put my makeup on with a trowel, and you know, I was like really trying to be a girl. And this woman walks up to me, and she starts giving me a lecture on the right way to be transgender. Like, well THIS is how you have to do it. And I almost walked out. I almost walked out. Thank God I met Raquel Hebron who was the chapter leader for Renaissance who came over and saved the day, and she kind of you know just sort of put her arm around me, and she was like, "We don't care how you look, we don't care, you know, how you identify. You are welcome here, and we're here to help you." And I am so unbelievably grateful for that, because I probably would have never gone back, and maybe I would never have transitioned if it hadn't been for that intervention. There were probably, I'm guessing maybe eight people at that meeting. Lots of angst. Lots of people sort of you know complaining about life and you know all the obstacles that they encountered and things like that, but it was a really important start for me, in terms of like just starting to access resources, and that's, you know I kind of went to meetings you know for a few months. And there was another person, her name is Amanda, who was there and she, while not being a web guru in anyway, she went to Wix.com and started to set up a website. It was a little bit of a kluge, it was pretty rough, but you know at least people could kind of find us now, and then between me and her and some other folks, we started going like, you know, "This thing could be a lot more than what it is now." And so, while Raquel was still chapter leader and she would sort of run the support group meetings, we were doing a lot of work kind of on the backside. Frankly, I was paying for it out of my pocket, and we built a real website with lots of resources and like so, now you can go to the Renaissance website and download a list of therapists who are trans-affirming for the entire state. You know, you can, you know, find, you know, if you want to find a place to get your nails done, or where you if you're a trans guy you need to buy a binder, or whatever it is, there's all these resources available. Lots of articles. We started a blog, and things like that. You know, we optimized the site for search engine optimization, so you know now a days if you type in like "Lehigh Valley Transgender," we pop right up at the top, and it becomes easy to find. And those meetings have gone from where we would get like you know maybe half a dozen people would come to a meeting, the Renaissance meeting that we had just two weeks ago had 48 people at it. Which is just sort of controlled pandemonium. It's hard to have a support group meeting when you have 48 people, so we've had to kind of learn to manage those things differently. But that was really the start of what is now the Trans Equity project, is let's build something for the community that works for everybody. And one of the things that we've learned is that not everybody needs or wants a support group, right? Where you kind of come and sit around in a circle and you talk about your problems, and people give you solutions. Sometimes people just want to go to a website and find, you know, where can I find a doctor who will prescribe hormones. Or some people you know may not want to go to a website, they may want to go to a Facebook page, or an Instagram page and things like that, so we started building you know this sort of business plan around what should an organization look like, and about three years ago myself and some others started getting into some conversations and said okay, so if we had a clean sheet of paper, and we were going to build something new, what might it look like? And what it looks like is the Eastern Pennsylvania Trans Equity Project. So, myself and some other folx, trans folx in the area, trans-masc. folk, non-binary folk, we started to sort of you know meet at a Starbucks, or meet at you know one of our houses, and say, "What should-- if we were going to build something new, what would we build?" And I should say that in the intervening time, as Renaissance started to do more, we decided that you know, so for example, when I started coming to Renaissance meetings, Renaissance had maybe $100 in the bank at any given point in time. And you know, we would collect you know five dollars here or there from people coming to meetings, to you know to pay for the cold pizza and the carrot sticks and the iced tea. We had a little bit of money left over. But as we started to expand, you know, that five dollars started to add up, and we'd go like, "Well, what are things that we could do?" And one of the first things that we did is that there is a conference that happens every year in Harrisburg called the Keystone Conference. So, the Keystone Conference is where primarily trans-fem folx, but really anybody of trans experience, can go. It's a four- conference where they literally take over the entire Sheraton Hotel in Harrisburg. The only non-trans people there are the airline pilots who have a layover that night, and they like hanging out with the trans folx, frankly, because we party hard. But you know you go there and there's seminars that happen, you know like, so surgeons that come, doctors who come, therapists who come. Seminars on how to change your name, seminars on you know deportment, seminars on you know how to do makeup, seminars on you know, if you're a trans-guy, what is the right way to fit a binder, for example. Lots of workshops during the day. Lots of social activities at night. And when I went to my first one, it was literally a life-changing experience, because it's the first time I didn't ever feel tall. So, like you know there's a thousand other transgender people there, and I go and I'm like "Oh my God!" You know, "There are women here who are 6'8"!" You know? "I'm little! I'm petite!" (laughs) But it's a totally accepting environment, non-threatening, you're not worried about your safety, and that's when I go like, "Oh I can really do this, and I have the tools." So, one of the first programs that we started at Renaissance was a scholarship to send people to that conference. Because it costs about, you know, eight hundred dollars to go for the full time, for a hotel room, and meals, and conference fees. So, we started to pay for that. But we also realized there was liability involved, so we at that time the Bradbury-Sullivan LBGTQ Center was starting to open up, Adrian the executive director of the center needed a program, we needed insurance, and so we became a program of the Bradbury-Sullivan Center. So, you know Adrian got a ready-made program for trans people, and you know we got insurance to cover our liability. It was kind of like a great marriage of convenience. But over time, we started wanting to do more and more and more, and the mission that we started to put together didn't necessarily fit in with the mission of the LBGTQ Center. So, working alongside Adrian, and working with the trans community, we started to put together the plan for the Eastern PA Trans Equity Project. And our mission is to empower trans people while building community and fighting for social justice, and our vision is to be really the go-to source for resources for trans folk throughout ultimately all of Pennsylvania, but right now we support 14 counties across the Eastern part of the state. By the end of the year, I think it's going to be 20 counties. And we do a lot with very little. So, kind of our tagline is "Life begins now." And it's, from a mission perspective, it's really what is the one thing-- just one thing-- that we can provide to a person of trans experience, to help them navigate life better? And that started off really with legal name change assistance. So, if you think about all the places that you have to use your name, so if you want to buy a drink in a bar, and they card you, right? You have to show your ID, and you know, maybe you know, in my case, my ID said David, but I'm presenting as Corinne, and we've had it happen where people hand over their ID and then a bartender says, "Oh, so you're transgender then." And now the whole bar knows that you're a person of trans experience, and that puts you in physical danger. You have to show your ID if you want to buy a cell phone. You have to show your ID when you want to apply for a car loan. When you apply for a job, right? And you're hired for a job. You want to go through TSA because you want to fly somewhere. You, you know, have to show your ID all the time, and every time that happens, if it's mismatched to your gender, you're outed. And every time you're outed, you're literally put into physical danger. So, the first program that we launched was the name change project, where you can come to our website, you can download all of the legal forms that you need to complete your name change, automatically have them filled out, so you just enter in your name, your address, and you know, you're chosen name, and your current legal name, and all the forms are automatically populated. They come with step-by-step instructions, written in plain English, so that you can do it yourself and not have to hire a lawyer for $2,000. Then you can apply for a grant, where we will pay for your name change, so that you don't have to come out of pocket for that. And then we will mentor you all along the process. So, for example, this year, right now it's October 15th, we've helped just over 150 people complete their legal name change this year. And that is a life-changing thing. Other programs we have is that you can, if you're in transition, or maybe you're a teenager and you're going to school, or a college student you're going to college, and you're trans-masculine person, and you want a binder to help you to present more masculine, we will provide you with a binder for free. We've added, over the last two years, housing assistance, so you know if you're struggling with housing, we will pay your rent for you to keep you in housing. We actually did one not too long ago where a person was three months behind on their rent due to COVID, and the recession that's going on right now, and unemployment. We managed to negotiate away one month of that person's rent with the landlord, we paid two months of the rent to get them caught up, and we secured a letter from the landlord saying they weren't going to take any eviction process for 90 days. We provide food assistance for people who need to feed themselves, or their trans kids. We did four college scholarships for trans folk this past year. We do a scholarship to trans-affirming summer camp for trans kids. You know, the idea is like, what can we do besides the support groups? We run now six different support groups. But how do we really help somebody of trans experience get their life on track so that they can make a difference? So, we started the project in 2019, it's now two years later. It's 100 percent volunteer, nobody gets paid. So, you know, 85, 90 percent of every dollar donated goes directly to help people of trans experience. We have an education program where conferences like the Keystone Conference were canceled during COVID, so we decided to pick that up, and every couple weeks we do a workshop for trans folk and their family members, so we did one earlier this week on de-mystifying health insurance for transition. And how do you get everything you need to get surgeries, for example. We did one two weeks prior to that on "You Transition as Your Partner Transitions," so it's for spouses and partners of trans people. We've done them on surgery, we've done them on name changes, we've done them on, you know, mindfulness and how to deal with dysphoria, and you know, I'm just so proud of not only what I've helped to accomplish in building this project, but of all of our volunteers who put in their time and their effort to make the struggle easier, and to pay it forward for hopefully mainly for young folk, right? So, I mean, we'll help anybody of any age, but you know if we can help a trans kid, you know, get the binder they need that'll let them feel comfortable going to class, and then we help them get their degree so they can get a decent job, and we'll help them with their name change so they can get their name on their diploma, right? And we're sort of setting them up for success as they move forward, and it's just amazingly gratifying. Yeah. MF: Could you tell me a bit more about how you moved into the leadership of Eastern PA Trans Equity Project? You talked about going to a support group at Renaissance, and you talked about a group of people kind of meeting to imagine Eastern PA Trans Equity. I'm sort of more, I'm interested in that personal story of being a member, but then thinking, "No, I want to take a leadership role," with others, in collaboration with others, to really start something transformative in Eastern PA, that's connected to Renaissance, kind of building out of it, but also has a big vision for you know, directly helping trans people with specific challenges that they're facing in our region? CG: Yeah, so it was a coup d'état (laughs), so. So, essentially you know, kind of some of the current leaders of Renaissance were sort of very happy kind of doing what they were doing, and they are still happy doing what they are doing. And but we kind of just said, "like, listen. We think that we can do more," and I will raise my hand and say I was the ringleader in this, without a doubt, and but is it, you know, just through having conversations with other members of the community who said, like you know "What could we do? If you think about your transition, what was the most complicated thing? Or what was the thing that was the biggest, you know, pain in the rear for you?" Or whatever. And then we said, like "All right, so what if we could start building solutions for these, what might they look like?" And I was definitely the person who was behind, you know, kind of pushing all this stuff forward. You know, with input from other community members, but I was definitely the instigator, and ultimately it came down to, you know, I mentioned Adrian Shanker from the LBGTQ Community Center, so we said, "All right, we just want to kind of move in different directions. We're going to cooperate and help each other where it makes sense," but the LBGTQ Community Center is much more about cultural programs and things like that, whereas you know, we're much more about direct aid and intervention, right? So, think about it as the difference between your broad programs, so coming to seeing an art gallery showing, or a movie, or whatever it is, and you got 50 people. You know, our program is about how do we, you know, sort of belly to belly, one person to one person, make a difference in somebody's life. It's just sort of a different philosophy on how you help the community. And so, that was sort of kind of where we started from, is this idea okay so what is that one thing we can do for a person of trans experience to make a difference? Maybe it's a support group program, maybe it's one of these workshops, maybe it's a name change. Maybe it's helping to get them off of the street. But, you know, what are these things that we could do? And so we had a bunch of conversations, this is kind of going on in 2017, 2018, and then like I said, in 2019 is when we incorporated and started it, and then I sat down had a conversation with Raquel who was the group leader of Renaissance, and I said like, "Listen, this is what we're doing." And you know the Bradbury-Sullivan Center has decided that Renaissance really needs to go in a different direction, not be part of the center anymore, because we always were sort of a little independent anyway, like we never had our meetings at the LGBTQ Center, we had our meetings elsewhere. You know, we weren't going to give that up. So, I said like, "Listen, so here's the deal. So, you can go out and kind of become what you were ten years ago, or you can fold in underneath the Trans Equity Project umbrella. More than happy to have you do that. That gives you the [ear?] cover of having liability insurance and things like that." So, really Renaissance is the sub-brand, if you want to think of it from a marketing perspective, of the Trans Equity Project for our support group programs. So, like we have a group for partners and spouses, it is Renaissance Partners. We have a group that we've started up in the Poconos, that's called Renaissance Poconos. We have a group for non-binary folx, and it's you know Renaissance Beyond the Binary. So, Renaissance I guess if you want to call it that is sort of the sub-brand for our support group side, and everything else that we're doing is falling underneath the Trans Equity Project Side. But yeah, so I was the instigator, so I get the blame, good or bad. MF: I think the blame is all good (laughter). You mentioned when you were talking about doing some of the taking over workshops since Keystone was cancelled due to COVID, and you talked about a specific workshop that was for trans people and their partners, and that lead me to kind of reflect on, you know, when you were coming out more fully to your spouse, your wife, you were doing that without, you hadn't gone yet to Renaissance. How did you navigate that conversation? Did you have support? What sort of resources helped you with that conversation with your wife? And I guess there's a second question, is your experience in your marriage fueling some of the programming or workshops that you're building today? CG: Yes, absolutely! So, one of the things I think that-- so, transition, you know, when you're a person of trans experience and you decide to come out, and you know transition, you know, whether socially, medically, or legally, it is an inherently selfish act, right? It is an act often of self-preservation. Matter of fact you know, when people say things like "Oh, you're so brave to transition." It's not about bravery. It's literally about self-preservation, right? You know, the rate of suicide attempts for transgender people is at over 40 percent. And that's because people become so unhappy with the transition process, or the fact that they feel they cannot transition, or the stigma that's associated with being a trans person going to high school or whatever, and so we tend to become very, very self-absorbed, I guess, during that process. It's a very easy thing to do, and it's easy to lose sight of the fact that everybody around you transitions right along with you. So, my spouse, she's had to transition as well. Her transition looks different. But, for example, my wife has five sisters and a mom and nieces and nephews and cousins, and she has a huge family. I have one brother and that's like the extent of it. I guess I have a nephew now too. But basically, is that you know, she had to come out to all these people, and she's very close to her family, and she was worried about being rejected by them. You know, they live kind of in the sticks, they're very rural, you know, not what you would call social activists in any way, shape, or form, and so for her, she had to have a conversation with her mom about you know, I'm married to a woman now. And deal with all the questions that come with that. My son has transitioned right along with me, you know, so when I go to visit him in New York, and you know, we run into some of his friends, so he works in theater, so you know, we'll go to one of his shows and you know he'll introduce us to all of his coworkers on the show, on the crew, and you know, he has to navigate the fact that you know, this is my dad who is a woman, who has a deep voice and you know huge hands, and broad shoulders, and is six feet tall, right? And coming out for trans people never stops. Never stops. And frankly, it never stops for our family. So, we started our support group for spouses and partners, and that was based on my personal motivation of that my wife needed support, right. And you know I'll say that that group is just thriving, and the woman whose the spouse of another Renaissance member is a rock star and does an amazing job, and you know, one of the great things of COVID has been is that you know we started going virtual, so we have people who call into our virtual support groups, especially the spouses group, from California and Texas and Costa Rica, and you know, all over the place. And so, for example, we did the workshop you know on transition, you know as your partner transitions a few weeks ago, we had over 30 people on that from all over the country, and you know, and they were just so grateful because they all go like "There was nothing in Iowa for me, and I don't know how to navigate. I don't know what to do." And so, the gratitude is wonderful, but even better is the fact that we're able to provide some tools and some resources and just companionship for some of these men and women who are going through these transitions. I think it's really important. But getting back to my wife and I, so I'm a huge believer in therapy, so I had my therapist, my wife had her therapist, and then we had a couple's therapist, so we kept the entire therapy population in the Lehigh Valley in business for many years, I think. But so yeah, so my therapist was all about supporting me, my wife's therapist was all about supporting her, and then the couple's therapy was about okay, so let's make a plan on navigating. And literally just because this is kind of how I'm wired, but my wife and I built a spreadsheet listing all the people that we had to come out to, and how would we do it. So, you know, her mom, and her sisters would be a personal face-to-face conversation, right? Our son would be a personal face-to-face conversation. My business clients would be a personal face-to-face conversation. You know, my third cousin twice removed? Well, maybe that's an email. You know, certain friends was a phone conversation, and for other people was just like a Facebook post that goes like you know, "Ta-da!" You know. "I'm here now!" Right? "And take it or leave it anyway you want." So, you know we really, we built a plan together, and that was a lot of work. I think you know one of the things for spouses and partners and families is that, so the way my wife often talks about it, she goes like, you know "You've been thinking about this for your entire life." So, I'm going to be 62 in two weeks. I've been thinking about it for 59 years. And while my wife has known to one degree or another for 34 years, for a long time she didn't really have to think about it. Right? And so, she was like, "You've been thinking about this for 59 years, I've been thinking about it for five weeks. I need time to process." And you know, one of the things that would always happen is like, you know I would do something to push the envelope, right? I went out and got my ears pierced, and I never asked to my wife "So like, hey. Is it okay if I get my ears pierced?" I just got them pierced. Right? And she came home from visiting her mom, and I go, "Hey look! You know, isn't this cool?" And she'd go like, "Why didn't we have a conversation about this? Because now I'm going to have to explain this to whoever." And so, there were real times when I've had to slow my transition down to allow my spouse to catch up. And that's a hard thing for me to do, but it's, you know, I've been married to this woman for 40 years, I've known her for 45, we have built a life together, we have a wonderful child, and it's pretty important to me so I'm not going to lose it. I'm going to do everything I can to keep it. MF: How has your marriage changed over from first meeting each other in college, been married, how has that relationship grown and evolved for you across your lives together? CG: So, I'm not sure that if you kind of take the whole transgender thing just out of the picture, right, I think our marriage has very much evolved the way that many, many marriages do, right? Where you, when you first meet, you know it's about physical attraction, and exploring each other sort of like you know emotionally, and intellectually, and going like, "Oh, does this person, do I like having conversations with this person? Do I like hanging out with them? Does my family like them?" You know, and there's all this sort of initial stuff that you're navigating or you're working through you know when you're in the first few years of a relationship, right? You know, you break up, you make up, you break up, you make up. You know that-- at least we did a lot in college. And then you know you decide in our case to get married or to you know live together, and then you start building, right? So, you know, you buy stuff, and you get a house, and then you have a baby, or you adopt somebody, or you know, but and you start adding layer upon layer upon layer upon layer upon layer, and as you do that, the depth of the connection grows, right? You're growing roots. And then things also evolve, right? So, I can't tell you the number of people who've been married a long time, and they say you know "I'm married to my best friend." Right? So, this'll sound horrible because I'm still very passionate about my wife, right, but you know, but it's a different kind of passion, right? You know, to be honest, we don't have sex that often anymore, right? For lots and lots of different reasons. Some of which is because we're just freaking old! (laughs) And you know, we come home from work, and we just go like you know, "What's for dinner? I want to sit down and vegetate in front of the TV and watch Netflix," right? And then you know you have to go to bed and get up and do it all over again the next day, right? Like so you get into a routine sometimes. That routine is wonderful in many ways, right? And then you decide, "Hey, let's go to Europe and do something fun and spontaneous," or you know earlier this year we decided to take a train, overnight train trip to Chicago, and like the first time ever we got a little sleeper cabin you know, which is a whole experience in itself, but you know, you do different things, and you start to explore. My wife is a really avid quilter, and I am not. I'm a model railroader, so I have a basement full of railroad trains and the loft of our house just outside my office door here, my wife has all of her quilting stuff, and so she quilts on the third floor, I do my trains in the basement, and in the middle is like the common space, right? Where you know we meet for dinner, and we hang out with our friends, and whatever it is, so yeah. You know, marriage and relationships is a lot of work. And so, like I said, I'm a believer in therapy, so you know, when we had our child, not too long after we had our baby, right, which is a life-changing thing, we went to couple's therapy because we needed to figure out how to do it. And yeah, so. I'm guessing that someday we'll probably go to couple's therapy again, because it's just good for you to do it. MF: We're getting towards the-- thank you for sharing that. We're getting towards the end of our 90-minute time, but I wanted to just sort of kind of return to, there's so much going on in your life right now, your passion for your wife, your work life, and Eastern PA Trans Equity Project. I'm wondering, what is your vision of kind of moving forward for you? Either with Eastern PA Trans Equity Project, your career on-going, what is your vision sort of for the future? CG: Yeah. So, something I've been giving a lot of thought to. So, I own my own business, I own my consulting firm. You know, I have people that work for me to support my clients, and that business, you know at times it's a 60 hour a week job, other times it's a 30 hour a week job, but it's really important because it helps provide you know for our household, right? And I get a lot of satisfaction from helping my clients to become successful. Trans Equity Project is taking more and more and more of my time, frankly it's where my passion is right now, so it's probably a 30, 40-hour week gig for me right now, and then you know, obviously my marriage and our friendships with others, and you know our love for our son and his wife and helping him out. Those things all take priority too, right? So, it's a real juggling act. So, I anticipate that I'm probably two years from retirement, fingers crossed. During that time the Trans Equity Project will continue to grow and expand, and as part of that growth and expansion, we need to start thinking about succession planning, and what does it look like. Right now, it's 100 percent volunteer. Our budget is about $60,000 a year, which is not a lot of money. You're not going to hire staff and pay for staff with $60,000, and do all the other work that we're doing, so you know with our grants, you know this year we've given out so far $41,000 in grants, so with that $20,000 left over you know, we have to pay for insurance and rent and printing and postage and you know all this other stuff that we do. Support groups and everything else. We're going to need to figure out how to raise more money, and to create something that can be sustained long-- so we can decide to stay small and awesome, which we are right now, or we can decide to go bigger. And one of the things that, at least for me from my vision, is that in Pennsylvania, for trans folk, while there's not enough programming, you know in the City of Philadelphia there's a fair amount of programming and support of trans folk, and the same is true in Pittsburgh. But in between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, there's a whole lot of nothing. And I think we can fill that role. So, when you-- and we can do it virtually. So, if you think about legal name change: So, we can help people to mentor them through the process, that can be done over the phone or via Zoom webinar like we're doing right now. The grant can be provided you know via check or a transfer, financial transfer through the internet. The legal paperwork can be delivered you know through our website and through the internet. We can do that work for the entire state of Pennsylvania from in a virtual way. Really all of our grant programs are designed specifically to do that, so even though they're not part of our quote-unquote designated service area, I was on the phone the other day with somebody from Elk County, Pennsylvania helping them with their legal name change. I don't even know where Elk County is. It's somewhere out in you know, what we euphemistically call "Pennsyltucky," right? It is out in the western part of the state somewhere, and I think like 30 people live there. But, you know, trans folk in these rural areas need support, and I think from a vision perspective, we will have the opportunity to do that. It's really a matter of getting the money and the staff to support us doing that. So, succession planning is a big one. That's a big one for us probably over this next two to three years. And part of that conversation is also going to be, what do we do with the support groups. So, the support groups, by their very nature, pretty much have to be done in person, versus virtually. And by their very nature, they're local in focus. And so, if we decide to truly fill that gap between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, how do we deal with Renaissance, which is a Lehigh Valley-focused program. Or, you know, Poconos-focused program. And how do we, do we keep it? Do we transition it to an independent organization and make sure that it's set up for success? These are really important conversations strategically that we're going to need to have, and I think that for me, this next let's call it five years, that's a lot of what this is going to be about. MF: Well, we're at the end of our time, but before we close, I want to ask, Corinne, is there anything that you are thinking, "Oh, I wish I would have talked about that!" Anything at the end that you'd like to share? Personally, about your work life, anything that seems important upon which we can conclude? CG: So, I'll just say this. So, for me, transitioning is the best thing I've ever done in my life. And that may even include my marriage and the birth of my child. Because, if I hadn't transitioned, I may not be here to enjoy my life with my family. I may not be here to do the work that we're doing. Not everybody has to transition. You know, so I kind of talked about that evolution earlier. But we're here to support people no matter what, and if it looks like a transition, we want to make that easier. And that doesn't mean it's not going to be hard. So, you know, when I transitioned and I was coming out to my clients, for example, you know, in some cases it was awesome, right? So, like the client that sells sex toys? Yeah, they go like, "Yeah, we don't care." (laughs) You know, "We're into everything here." One of my other clients is like in the Fortune 50, they're a huge, very conservative organization, and they allow me to employ two people, so you know, if I lost them as a client, not only would it impact me, but it would impact two of the people that work for me. I probably would have had to let them go. And so, I was very worried about it. When I went to their offices and I sat down with my long hair in a ponytail and you know the last time I've ever, no sorry I shouldn't say that-- the second to last time I've ever had to wear a business suit, but, men's business suit, my main contact at this corporation said "Okay, so I guess that means you're getting a new email address?" And I go like, that's a win, right?! I don't think I could have had a better response than that, frankly, right? "So, oh we're just going to carry on and you're going to get a new email address. Please tell me what it is," right? I had other clients who just literally went dead silent on me and some even stiffed me on money they owed me, frankly. Luckily not a lot. But interestingly enough, one of those clients just reengaged with me like a month ago. Took them five years, but they did it. We, so I've muddled my way through, I'm a planner by nature, you know, had my spread sheet, but is it, there are people out there who will help you. Right? There will be, you know, that person might be me, it might be someone else completely, but that's really what it's about, is like we muddle through life, right? And not just in gender transition, you know. We have to muddle through figuring out new jobs, or buying a car, or you know, going to college or whatever it is, and if there's an opportunity for one person just to sort of reach out their hand and make one of those steps a little easier, then that's what it is. And so, I would respectfully ask that other people do that, right? Just you know when somebody comes out to you and says, "I'm a person of transgender experience," know that that is an act of revolution. Know that when that person comes out to you, they are scared to death. They are scared that they're going to lose you as a friend, or as a relative, or as a spouse, or a partner, as a business contact. They're afraid they're going to get fired, they're afraid they're going to get rejected. They're frankly maybe afraid that they're going to be physically assaulted. Just acknowledge the strength that it takes to do that, to say those words, and when we do our trainings on these topics with organizations, you know I was doing it last night with a college, is you know, we just say like, "When somebody comes out to you, just remember what a big deal it is." And then you just say three phrases: The first one is, "Thank you for telling me." The second one is, "It's going to be a change, but I'm here to help you through that." And the third one is, "No matter what, I'm with you." If you just do that, my anxiety level goes from you know, an eleven, down to a five. And then we can start having real conversations. So. That's my sermon. MF: Thank you Corinne. It was really an honor, a privilege to talk with you today. Thank you so much. CG: Well, thank you. My life is not particularly interesting. I'm kind of dull, frankly, but I really appreciate you taking the time out for this. MF: You are not dull at all. This was wonderful, I'm so grateful. I'm going to go ahead and stop the interview, but we'll stay on Zoom just to kind of conclude together, and I'll say thank you again. CG: Thank you! Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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Corinne Goodwin, October 15, 2021
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Corinne Goodwin describes her childhood in Yonkers, Long Island, White Plains, NY, and Glen Falls; she focuses on her experiences as a transgender girl and the transphobia within her family. For example, she shares how her mother responded when she found feminine clothing in her room by exclaiming that it would “kill” her father if he found out. Corinne describes hiding her transgender identity from family after these formative experiences even as she continued to express her femininity in secret. Upon entering Eisenhower College, Corinne continued to be closeted, but developed important life-long friendships and met her future wife, Deb. When they married one year after college, Corinne discusses remaining in the closet even as she had “girl” days in which she was able to express her full self. In 1987, when she and Deb found out that Deb was pregnant, Corinne came out to her wife. The spouses developed routines in which Corinne could be her “real” self when Deb and her son visited relatives. Corrine also discusses her work life. She describes her 23-year career with Radio Shack, managing hundreds of stores within eastern PA; her work as Vice-President of Sales for Vonage; and her development of her own consulting business and then training and development business.
Once she left the corporate world and started her own businesses, Corine describes coming out fully between 2008-2014 to everyone in her life, including her clients and living full time as her real self. She describes different parts of her transition, including social, legal, and medical transition. In other parts of the interview, Corinne discusses the import of support groups, like Renaissance, and how she developed the Eastern PA Trans Equity Project with other community members as well as their major work in our communities.
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LGBT-12
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2021-10-11
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Stories of Lehigh Valley LGBTQ+ Community Members (2022 - )
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Mary Foltz
Interviewee
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David Moyer
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5.4 January 21, 2022 David Moyer Part 1, January 21, 2022 LGBT-23 1:42:38 LVLGBT-2022 Stories of Lehigh Valley LGBTQ+ Community Members (2022 - ) Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository Support for the collection of this interview was provided by the American Council of Learned Societies (ACLS). trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg David Moyer Mary Foltz video/mp4 MoyerDavid_20220121_video_trimmed.mp4 1.0:|19(3)|52(7)|73(11)|92(6)|107(13)|128(5)|143(9)|158(14)|181(2)|198(3)|215(19)|228(3)|245(8)|262(12)|281(12)|296(9)|315(15)|336(5)|353(9)|372(12)|389(8)|406(2)|417(20)|432(11)|447(11)|464(3)|481(13)|498(17)|515(5)|536(13)|557(8)|576(18)|591(4)|602(11)|617(11)|634(7)|651(11)|668(10)|685(14)|698(14)|717(9)|730(10)|745(2)|760(9)|773(7)|790(11)|805(6)|822(15)|837(5)|856(2)|871(10)|890(13)|909(13)|934(2)|957(11)|978(4)|995(11)|1012(18)|1031(10)|1046(15)|1063(18)|1082(14)|1099(4)|1118(2)|1131(9)|1148(2)|1165(19)|1184(10)|1205(8)|1224(16)|1241(11)|1260(18)|1275(14)|1294(12)|1315(6)|1332(12)|1355(5)|1374(14)|1395(2)|1408(10)|1425(11)|1442(15)|1459(3)|1480(13)|1499(2)|1516(14)|1533(11)|1552(4)|1567(16)|1586(12)|1603(15)|1618(18)|1633(8)|1646(6)|1663(14)|1700(14)|1723(17)|1744(3)|1761(8)|1780(5)|1793(7)|1810(12)|1825(9) 0 https://youtu.be/Q1Wsr0F1Dbo YouTube video English 36 Interview Introductions MARY FOLTZ: My name is Mary Foltz, and I’m here with David Moyer to talk about his life and experiences in LGBT organizations in the Lehigh Valley as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. Our project has funding from ACLS this semester, and David and I are meeting at Muhlenberg College in the Rare Books room. The date today is January 21, 2022. So, David, thank you so much for being here with me today, and to start, I just have a few quick questions. Could you please state your full name and spell it for me? 
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 ; DAVID MOYER: Okay. David Kenneth Moyer, D-A-V-I-D, K-E-N-N-E-T-H, M-O-Y-E-R. 0 119 Childhood in the Lehigh Valley MF: Fabulous, all right, so let’s go ahead and get started, and, David, I thought I could -- we could begin by you may be sharing a little about your childhood. 
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 ; DM: Well, with all these I dos, I feel like we’re married now, so. (laughter) Well, thank you for asking me to do this. It’s my pleasure, and anything that I can help, I’m more than willing to do that. I don’t know where to start because there’s so much, so here we go. Well, it was a cold and stormy night -- no, that’s not right. 0 448 Exploring Sexuality DM: My first encounter with anyone sexually was with Nicholas, and we would do pretty much the same thing that Bobby and I did. And then later on, I kind of got involved with Gene, the Italian, and he was the older, older one, and he was the first one that I actually performed oral sex on. Now I was about eight or nine I’d say at the time, and I thought, wow, this is great, I like this, but I never said anything to anybody about it, and I just -- we always kept this to ourselves. But then Gene did say to me, he says, “Don’t you dare say anything to anybody.” I says, “No, why would I? I want to keep this all to myself, I’m not going to share this.” 0 578 Weekends in Catasauqua/First Love DM: So I guess later on, as the years were going up, I was going to school, and I would spend weekends with my grandparents up in Catasauqua, they live in Catasauqua. My grandmother’s name was Esta, E-S-T-A, and my grandfather’s name was Paul, and my grandmother had a brother whose name was Abner, and he was -- he had been in the Army, but he had been discharged, he had done his 20 years, so he was home. He took a liking to me, and I always thought that he was really nice and whatever. And I had spent a lot of time out there especially in the summer months when school wasn’t in, so I had a lot of free time. But my grandparents always liked to throw Friday night or Saturday night parties, and they had done that one weekend. 0 905 Time at Camp Greenwood /Navigating Sexual Relationships DM: So now, I’m getting into my teen years, and I had a job as a newspaper delivery boy when they used to deliver newspapers -- well they still do, but not the way that they used to. Every summer if you were a newspaper boy, you were able to get a free week at a boys’ camp up in Carbon County at -- it was called Camp Greenwood, and it was on Greenwood Lake, which was -- right next to Lake Hauto. The first two years I went up as a camper, and it was fun because it was all boys. Boys camp was eight weeks’ long and then the first -- last two weeks in August was girls. The girls always got the short end of the stick because it’s just the way it was then -- still is now when you look at things, how things are going. But it was quite interesting. 0 1662 Time in the Navy Reserves DM: Like this time now, I’m in the military, I’m gone. I went to boot camp in Philadelphia when they had a boot camp there for the reserves, and nothing happened at boot camp. I was too scared for one thing but not -- but just that what have I gotten myself into? Because I know I didn’t want to go into the -- I didn’t really go into the Army, and I knew that I wasn’t going to be Marine Corps material, and I really didn’t know anything about the air force, so I thought I had -- even though I had an uncle who was -- my uncle Abner was in the Army, I had -- my cousin Jimmy was a Navy man, and he looked really good in uniform, but he had nothing there. I had gone for my Army physical ; this is in 1962 because I was already graduated from high school, I was working up to Wilkes-Barre and we went through the whole thing, the written test, you have to do an exam, and then you always a full physical. 0 2155 Being Stationed in Gulfport, MS / Spending Time in New Orleans DM: So, I now go to Gulfport. Now, there was a guy in my A school in Great Lakes, and his name was David, the same as mine, and he and I were vying for the same guy that I wound up getting, so we were kind of like at odds with each other while we were there. I don’t know where David went. Like I said, I went to Philadelphia, and Ron went to St. Albans. So, I get down to Gulfport, Mississippi, and I’m checking in, and the first person that meets me is David, and I’m thinking, oh, no, this is not going to go well because we didn’t like each other. 0 2521 Serving in Vietnam DM: I know, I know that when I was in Vietnam, the group of us that were gay hung around together, and everybody knew that we were gay, the commanding officer knew that we were gay. But because the job that we did was important, we didn’t flaunt our sexuality, and as long as we did what we were there to do, who cares what you are. I mean we had one guy, and he was the commanding officer’s personal driver, so whenever he had this -- he had to go somewhere off the base, he was the one. He was the only one that was discharged -- not for being gay. He had contracted sexually transmitted disease six times while he was in country. Two is it, and he overlooked that, they said, “That’s it, you’re out.” So he was the only one that was discharged for -- and not even being gay but for having that many sexual transmitted diseases in the time that we were there, so... But in the time that I was in country, you were given a week of what’s called R& ; R, rest and recreation, so I decided to go to Japan for my R& ; R. 0 2888 Returning to Civilian Life / Attending Nursing School / Coming Out / The Gay Scene in Allentown
 ; DM: So, I come back, and now, the wild days are starting, and I am back at the state hospital and then these two women came in from Northampton County Community College and did an in-service for the orderlies, because we were considered orderlies, about a new program that were starting up with the college of nursing program, a two-year nursing, and was anybody interested. So I thought, why not? I went to nursing school. That was from ’68 to ’70. I was the first male to graduate from the nursing program, and I got a job at St. Luke’s. I was the first male nurse to work in labor and delivery. I was there for 65 deliveries, three sets of twins, and a set of triplets. 0 3610 Allentown's First Male Go-go Dancer
 ; DM: So, he opened up this -- the bar, and he asked me because he knew I knew how to dance and stuff like that. He says, “I want to have some entertainment in here, and I’d like to have like a go-go boy-type thing to bring in patrons,” so he said, “Are you interested?,” and I said, “Yeah, yeah.” The pay wasn’t great, but tips were good. And I got to tell you that he had been involved with -- one, two, three, four -- four different bars, okay. Every bar that he had, that he had me work at, he had sex with me on the bar after the place closed, and so... So I said, “Yeah,” so I was the go-go boy, and I was the first go-go boy in Allentown when that stuff was starting to get up because you had the go-go girl dancers and all this other, but you didn’t have guys doing that stuff. And then if there was guys, they were in the straight bars where a lot of the women would go, almost like the Chippendale type thing, but I wasn’t stripping. 0 3878 Trips to Atlantic City / Taking in the Nightlife DM: So from that time prior to all of that, we now have Atlantic City. Atlantic City was exciting ; It was like another version prior to me going to -- well no, I take that back. Atlantic City to me was like the New Orleans of the East Coast, right? The gay life down there was so much fun. Now I had graduated from nursing school, I’m working where I’m working, and I was living with a friend of mine who just passed away four months ago, he was older than me. 0 4858 Meeting Will / Death of Mother DM: So one of the women that I worked with at Olin, her name is Donna, and she had a partner who eventually became my wife but... So she would go to these different things, but they got laid off and then they moved from Allentown to Delaware, and then from Delaware they moved to -- back to New York because my ex-wife was originally from New York. Donna is from -- it’s either Pottstown or Pottsville ; I always get those two mixed up. Anyway to make a long story short, I am now -- I have now moved out of Mother Vern’s house, and I am living in Terre Hill, the trailer park ; I became trailer trash. 0 5403 Getting Married DM: So she came down, and she was with me for -- getting the arrangements and the lawyer and all that good stuff, the funeral, and she went back on Christmas Eve. We buried my mother on Christmas Eve and then her and Donna were coming down for New Year’s Eve, to spend New Year’s Eve with us, which is what they did. And Will was a smoker, a cigarette smoker, and had run out cigarettes, so he and Donna went to the store to get cigarettes and some more booze. I had just gotten out of the shower, and Betsy had given me a bottle of Calvin Klein Obsession, which I loved, loved. So I put some on, and I’m still not dressed yet, and she comes over to me and puts her hands under my robe and gets me all excited, and she drops her pants, and we had sex under the Christmas tree. 0 5695 Other Items to Cover
 ; MF: We’re at 90 minutes if you can believe it, and so this is typically where we’d start to wind down in the interview. I think we have a lot more to talk about, and perhaps we should schedule a second interview.
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 ; DM: Oh, okay. 
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 ; MF: But I don’t want to stop you abruptly. So we’ve talked about a kind of first, maybe even the half of your life. And before we close the interview today, I’m just wondering if there’s anything about what you’ve shared so far -- and we’ll do a second interview, so we’ll get into more it -- 0 5828 Relationship with First Love, Robert DM: What I really wanted to talk about also was my first love -- my other first love between my uncle and William, and that was Robert. I met Robert in the bathroom of Arner’s Diner, which was in Allentown. The diner is still the diner, but it’s not in the spot that it was originally. It’s now at the corner of Ninth and Linden, and I think it’s the city something or other. But anyway, we had been in Rube’s, and after Rube’s closed, the only places you’d go to was the diner, otherwise you went home because there was no bookstores or anything like that at that time. 0 6144 Closing Remarks MF: Okay. Well, I want to say for the day, David, thank you so much. It’s so wonderful to hear your stories today. I’m so grateful that you took the time, and I can’t wait for our next interview. 
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 ; DM: We’ll get a date together and see what’s up, and we can do it again if they don’t mind doing it again. (laughs) 0 MovingImage David Moyer recounts his early years, sexuality, and his experiences with gay community in Allentown and Atlantic City. MARY FOLTZ: My name is Mary Foltz, and I'm here with David Moyer to talk about his life and experiences in LGBT organizations in the Lehigh Valley as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. Our project has funding from ACLS this semester, and David and I are meeting at Muhlenberg College in the Rare Books room. The date today is January 21, 2022. So, David, thank you so much for being here with me today, and to start, I just have a few quick questions. Could you please state your full name and spell it for me? DAVID MOYER: Okay. David Kenneth Moyer, D-A-V-I-D, K-E-N-N-E-T-H, M-O-Y-E-R. MF: Thank you very much, and will you please share your birthday? DM: Ah, oh. (laughter) April 23, 1943, I'm very old. MF: Thank you for sharing that. Before we started this interview, you signed a consent form, but I just want to review briefly some questions on that form. Do you consent to this interview today? DM: I do. MF: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made public available online? DM: I do. MF: Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats including films, articles on our website, conference presentations? DM: I do. MF: And do you understand that you'll have 30 days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review the interview, to identify parts that you might want to delete, or to withdraw the interview from the project? DM: I do. MF: Fabulous, all right, so let's go ahead and get started, and, David, I thought I could -- we could begin by you may be sharing a little about your childhood. DM: Well, with all these I dos, I feel like we're married now, so. (laughter) Well, thank you for asking me to do this. It's my pleasure, and anything that I can help, I'm more than willing to do that. I don't know where to start because there's so much, so here we go. Well, it was a cold and stormy night -- no, that's not right. MF: (laughs) DM: In the beginning, it was the -- no, that's not right either, uh-uh, anyway, my little humor there just to get me going. Like I mentioned, my name is David Moyer, I am 78 years old. I was born in the Allentown Hospital at 17th and Chew, which is now Leigh Valley Health Network -- something or other, I don't know, they keep changing their names. My mother's name was [Alma?], my father's name was Kenneth. We lived in -- originally in Fullerton on Quarry Street -- Fullerton is now part of Whitehall -- and we were there until I was approximately four years of age when we moved into Allentown. Prior -- well [Linnie?] also. Other than the names there, I need to give you a little disclaimer here. For a lot of things that I'm going to be saying with names, the names may or may not be the real names of the people that I'm talking about, and some of the things are not meant to have a shock value, but some of the things that I'm going to say are pretty out there. So, I just want to get that out there in front so that there's nothing, yeah, because I have nothing to hide. But anyway, my first encounter with another male, I was approximately the age of four. I don't remember a thing -- anything up till four. But I had a friend Bobby who lived in the neighborhood, and he and I would play a lot together, but for some reason one day, we had built a fort over the back of our sofa at the house, and one thing led to another, we had our pants down, and we were looking. And I thought this is interesting, and he thought it was interesting because our penises looked different. One of us was circumcised, one of us was not, and we thought that was interesting, so we didn't know. But all we did was just touch each other, and we would get erect, and I'd think, this is really cool without knowing what that all meant. And that went on for about six months or so and then we moved from Fullerton into Allentown into a single house. We were in a single house in Fullerton, but we moved into another single house, which is four stories. And I was sad to leave because I didn't know if I was going to see Bobby again, and I didn't know what to expect moving into a new neighborhood with the people. I knew that I liked people, that like -- I was an out-there kid. It wasn't long and then I met -- made some friends with the neighbors. There was a lot of boys in the neighborhood, and there were some girls. My best friend then, the first person I met back then was Nick and then he had a brother Danny who was younger, and then there was my friend Jim, and Jim had two older brothers and a sister. There was Tony and Gene, they were brothers, and they had a sister Grace. Now, Nicholas and Danny were Irish, Jim, his two brothers and his sister was -- were Irish, Tony and Gene and his -- and their sister Grace were Italian. And then there was another neighbor that lived next door to us, they ran the corner luncheonette, [Herb's?] Luncheonette, and they had a daughter Lucille, and they were Italian. My first encounter with anyone sexually was with Nicholas, and we would do pretty much the same thing that Bobby and I did. And then later on, I kind of got involved with Gene, the Italian, and he was the older, older one, and he was the first one that I actually performed oral sex on. Now I was about eight or nine I'd say at the time, and I thought, wow, this is great, I like this, but I never said anything to anybody about it, and I just -- we always kept this to ourselves. But then Gene did say to me, he says, "Don't you dare say anything to anybody." I says, "No, why would I? I want to keep this all to myself, I'm not going to share this." So was it was Gene and Nick were the two that I would become involved with over the years. I never did anything with the Gene's brother, I never did anything with my other friend Jim, although we had talked about it. We were the only non-Catholic family in the neighborhood, everybody else was Catholics, so everybody went to Sacred Heart down in Center City there. And my first inkling about something not being as it should be was Jim had called the priest at the church and wanted to know about what masturbation was, and if it was a sin or not and any other type of thing, and then of course the priest says, "It's a mortal sin, you're going to go to hell if you do these things." So that scared me, and then of course, Jim and I never did anything. So I guess later on, as the years were going up, I was going to school, and I would spend weekends with my grandparents up in Catasauqua, they live in Catasauqua. My grandmother's name was Esta, E-S-T-A, and my grandfather's name was Paul, and my grandmother had a brother's whose name was Abner, and he was -- he had been in the Army, but he had been discharged, he had done his 20 years, so he was home. He took a liking to me, and I always thought that he was really nice and whatever. And I had spent a lot of time out there especially in the summer months when school wasn't in, so I had a lot of free time. But my grandparents always liked to throw Friday night or Saturday night parties, and they had done that one weekend. Everything was done, cleaned up, and everybody was in bed. My grandparents were in their room, and my uncle Abner was in his room, and I was in my room, and something just said to me, you need to go over and talk to your uncle. So I was very quiet, I crept over to his bedroom and crawled in bed with him, and he was -- he gets a little startled somewhat. And he put his arm around me, I had my hand in his chest and just listening to him breathe, and I was getting excited, and my hand just started to move from his chest down to his crotch. I was, I guess, amazed that when I got down there, he was already erect. And I started massaging him, and he was moaning and groaning, and he started playing with my penis and put his finger around my anus. And the more I'm massaging him, the more he's groaning, and I went down on him, and then all of a sudden, this liquid came out -- I wasn't sure what it was -- and then he kind of sighed. And I felt the urge to ejaculate, but of course I couldn't because I was still too young, but I had felt that. So that was my really first experience with an adult, and it was my uncle. And I know a lot of people are going to look at this and say that he should have been arrested or it was child abuse or whatever, and for me, I didn't see that at all because it wasn't him that initiated this, it was me that initiated it. And they were going to say, well, he should've known better anyway, but I knew -- and my response to those people is that you love who you love, and I loved him. He was probably my first love, I knew that he loved me. And then he got rushed to the hospital with appendicitis, and complications had set in, and he developed a condition called peritonitis, and that killed him, and he was 49 years old, and I was devastated. I thought my world had ended because the person I loved has now died, and I never got over that. Still to this day, I miss him, and I still love him, I mean I always will. So that was my first experience with an adult, and again a family member, but he was just so handsome. He had been an Army cook. I don't know where he worked when he was discharged, but I know that when he cooked, he would cook for an Army. There was only four or five of us eating, but there was always so much food. And he was just so handsome, especially when was in his uniform, it was just -- I have -- I really only have one picture of him in his uniform with three other of his people that he was in the Army with. So that's my first part. I knew I was different, but I didn't know what as yet. So now, I'm getting into my teen years, and I had a job as a newspaper delivery boy when they used to deliver newspapers -- well they still do, but not the way that they used to. Every summer if you were a newspaper boy, you were able to get a free week at a boys' camp up in Carbon County at -- it was called Camp Greenwood, and it was on Greenwood Lake, which was -- right next to Lake Hauto. The first two years I went up as a camper, and it was fun because it was all boys. Boys camp was eight weeks' long and then the first -- last two weeks in August was girls. The girls always got the short end of the stick because it's just the way it was then -- still is now when you look at things, how things are going. But it was quite interesting. I had some activity but not a whole lot until I was brought in as a counselor, and I was given a cabin with seven other kids, and I was the leader for that group. But anyway, we would go up for two weeks prior to the camp opening up so that we could go and get the camp ready. So that when it was time for the campers to come in, everything was set. They'd come in, they were assigned cabins, so we had -- the upper cabins where the older kids were my age and then the lower cabins were where the littler kids were. I think they were under 10, 10 and under. Everybody else was up in my area. There were six upper cabins and six lower cabins. The lower cabins were two cabins and then in this -- there was a center section, and that's where the counselors were. So there was three sets of those two of two, then the upper cabins were all single cabins, and they were all double-bunk beds. You got to know who you were going to be able to have fun with and who you just wanted to let go. So, there were times where we would get together, and we would just masturbate together or touch each other. There was no oral going on, there should've been, but there wasn't. And that went on for about four more years. I started getting up there when I was in late junior high school into high school year. Like I said, I was a camper for two years, and I think it was three or four years I was on staff. The way that I got on staff is because I had gone to the Red Cross and got my swimming certificate as an instructor and how to do a canoe, so I was hired for the waterfront staff. And we went down in the morning, and we would brush our teeth and wash our face in the lake because there was nothing -- you couldn't shower, there was no showers for any of us up there. And then in the evening, you went down to the lake. You had your morning thing and then you would go down again after breakfast and have swimming lessons because you could get your swimming lessons when you learn how to swim. And then you went back again later in the afternoon for an afternoon swim and fun time and then you went back down again, and that's where you took a bath in the lake. That's how we did it back then because there were no showers. But like I said, that went on up until I think the -- my last year was the year after I graduated, and I was -- by that time, I was working. When I graduated from high school, I was working at the Allentown State Hospital. Of course, then, I went into the military, but that's coming later on down the road here. So, the activity was going on for -- every time we went to camp, and there was two guys. When I would go up for the pre-opening season, I would stay either with my friend Art and they -- he lived in Lansford, I never did anything with him. And then his friend Bob who lived in Coaldale, Bob and I would hit, we'd connect, and we would have sex every chance we got. I think from there, I was having -- still having sex with Gene and Nick, and I was also having sex with -- even though I was a newspaper boy and had my own route, we had to have a newspaper boy deliver our newspaper -- go figure why was, but that's how it was -- and that was Frankie. And Frankie and I would get together, and that went on for a while until even after graduation. There was another guy that I went to school with, his name was Jim, and Jim lived in this south side of Allentown, but I would go down because -- and his parents worked, but he had younger brothers. So, I would go down there sometimes on a Friday night during school and stay with him while he was watching his brothers. And then once his brothers were tucked in and were asleep, he and I would get together and have sex. So, I was very, very promiscuous at an early age. From there, I was -- and I started working at the state hospital after I graduated from high school. My mother worked there, she was an LPN, and I got a job there as an orderly, and I was there for -- from '61 until '65 and then I had to go into the military my -- Navy, Navy reserve part. There was a guy that was our -- we had -- on the ward that I worked on, I worked in the male violent ward, but we had a charge nurse, and we had a charge attendant, and the charge attendant's name was Bruce and then there was Jim. Bruce and I were going up to Tamaqua to do something at night. I thought we were going to look for something, I'm not exactly sure what it was, and on the way back, he said, "Let's get some beer," and so we got some beer and parked somewhere, and one thing led to another, and he and I had sex. Bruce was married, as was Jim, and Jim lived in Bethlehem, Bruce lived in Allentown, and there were nights where I would go over to Jim's house. And usually, his wife was up for a while when I would get there because I would see her, but their son was already in bed, who I've never seen, I've never seen his son. And then Jim just started putting the make on me and, oh, okay, let's do this. So that went on for the whole time that I worked there. There was a neighbor in Allentown who was married and really good-looking, and he lived in that apartment complex right across the street, he, his wife and his kid. And he asked me to help him with something down in the basement, which is what I did, and again, one thing led to another, and I said, "You want me to go down on you?" and he said, "Sure," so I seduced the neighbor. I did a lot of seduction in my days. And then I get into the military. Now -- oh, before I go back to the military, all these years from early on to where I was then, it's only been sex with men or boys. I never had sex with a woman, so I was still a virgin, yet. There was a woman that worked at the state hospital, her name was Darlene, and she was a very attractive blonde, young, and was married. And she had asked me, she said she wanted to speak to me, but she wouldn't talk to me there, and did I know a place that was more private that we could go and talk to, and I said, "Yeah.". And so we made arrangements to meet, and I was kind of hesitant, but why not? So, I went to this parking place where I used to go to park with the guys. It was very secluded, and there was never anybody there. And we started talking, and again, one thing led to another, and before you knew it, we're naked, and I was just so excited that something's going to happen with a woman that I was so excited that I had a premature ejaculation. And I thought to myself, ah, this is not the way I want my first encounter with a woman to go. So, we never really did anything, I never penetrated her, let's put it that way, cleaned up and took her back. And then I found out -- this is just before I had gone into the Navy -- that her husband had found out that she was doing something with other people. And if he ever found out who it was, they were dead, and I thought, okay. Like this time now, I'm in the military, I'm gone. I went to boot camp in Philadelphia when they had a boot camp there for the reserves, and nothing happened at boot camp. I was too scared for one thing but not -- but just that what have I gotten myself into? Because I know I didn't want to go into the -- I didn't really go into the Army, and I knew that I wasn't going to be Marine Corps material, and I really didn't know anything about the air force, so I thought I had -- even though I had an uncle who was -- my uncle Abner was in the Army, I had -- my cousin Jimmy was a Navy man, and he looked really good in uniform, but he had nothing there. I had gone for my Army physical ; this is in 1962 because I was already graduated from high school, I was working up to Wilkes-Barre and we went through the whole thing, the written test, you have to do an exam, and then you always a full physical. So, I passed the physical, and I failed the written test. I thought, oh, I'm safe, I'm not going to have to go anywhere. So I said to the person, the recruiter, I said, "Well, I guess that's it," and he says, "Oh, no," he says, "just because you fail the test doesn't mean that -- they'll retest you again and then they'll put you where they want to put you." And I thought, oh, no, I don't really want to go in the Army, and that's when I decided to go in -- well, I came back and I thought, okay, I'm going to join the Navy. Well, we're in the height of Vietnam here, so the quotas for the Navy were full, and like I said, I knew I wasn't Marine Corps material. Air force was -- quota was full, and I know didn't want to go into the Army, I know I didn't want to do that, so somebody said, "Well, why don't you try the Navy reserve?" And at that time, the Navy reserve was over on Vultee and Lehigh Street ; now there's a CVS there. So I went, walked in, and I said what the circumstances were and they says, "Yeah," they says, "there's openings here. We can test you now and then if then if you pass the test, we can bring you back in the evening, get your physical exam, and we can swear you in that same night." This is all done in Tuesday. So I took the exam, I scored like 30 points higher than what I had in the other one. So I went back that night, I got my physical exam, and I was sworn in, and that was either September or October of 1963. And I stayed there for 30 years, so I did, but most the time was in the reserves, but then I had several years of active duty, I retired in 1993. I had gone to boot camp, which I mentioned earlier, come back, and did some time at the reserve center, and then I went for two weeks -- it's actually three weeks, and I was still working at the state hospital. My first ship that I went on was the sub tender in Key West, the USS Bushnell, and I went down with our commanding officer and two other guys and so there's four of us, we all took turns driving down and driving back, and I still hadn't -- I still was not given a billet, what am I going to do? Well, I was an orderly at the state hospital, so there's medical there, and fortunately when I was -- did the written test, I had qualified to be a yeoman. A yeoman really is a clerk, clerk duties ; I thought, I don't want to do paperwork and that stuff. One of the lieutenants that was in the unit was a -- not physical therapist -- was a therapist at the hospital, and I used to talk to him. I said, "Is there any way that I can become a corpsman?" because that's really what I wanted to do. And they said, "Well, you're --" I didn't have enough points to qualify, point-wise, but he did a letter of recommendation as did the commanding officer, and they accepted that. So, I get into my A school, which was in a Great Lakes at the station there. So, in '65, I go to Great Lakes for my A school and still not having any sex with anybody. I met Alan, and he and I became good friends, and we went into Chicago one Sunday, we had gotten a room or it was Saturday. Saturday, went into Chicago, got a room for the weekend, and bingo, we had -- he's the first person I had sex with, and that went on while we were in our A school, then you graduate from A school and you're going to go somewhere. So, he got stationed at the Naval Hospital in St. Albans in New York, and I get stationed at the naval hospital in Philadelphia, so there was still a distance there. And I was in Philly for -- I was there for about six months or so and then I had gotten orders to go to Gulfport, Mississippi, to the CBs, that's the construction unit of the Navy. But while I was in Philadelphia, there were several gay bars that I would go to. I didn't go with anybody else because nobody knew. Back then if you knew, you were out. If somebody outed you, and you were court-martialed, you were out, and you lost everything, so I was secretive about my sexual activity. But there were a couple of bars that we'd go to. There was the Allegro, there was the Zebra, there was the bus -- Bike Stop, there was a lot of bars there. There still are in Philly, but I don't go to Philly. So, I now go to Gulfport. Now, there was a guy in my A school in Great Lakes, and his name was David, the same as mine, and he and I were vying for the same guy that I wound up getting, so we were kind of like at odds with each other while we were there. I don't know where David went. Like I said, I went to Philadelphia, and Ron went to St. Albans. So, I get down to Gulfport, Mississippi, and I'm checking in, and the first person that meets me is David, and I'm thinking, oh, no, this is not going to go well because we didn't like each other. Well, as it turned out, we became best friends -- again, David and I never did anything -- we said, "Hey, it's all water over the dam, this is a brand-new start, okay." I had a friend that lived in Quakertown who had moved to New Orleans, Louisiana. He was gay, and his daughter he was gay, and she opened up a -- what she called a Christmas store. All year-round it was Christmas stuff like ornaments and knickknacks and all that that crap that we have lying around all over the place. Anyway, so I knew that he was down there, and I contacted him, and I said, "Hey, I'm at Gulfport at the base, what's going on in New Orleans?" because I had never been there, and he says, "Come on down." So, I went down, and I stayed with him, and he had a couple of roommates, again nothing with them, and they were older than I was. He showed me around to the different bars and, oh my God, it was like whole new world, yes it was just -- you had sex everywhere. You could go to a bar and grab a drink whether it was a bottle of beer, or it was a margarita or whatever, and you could leave with it and go to another bar, you could drink on the streets in there. I guess that's how New Orleans was and still is to my knowledge. I haven't been there in -- for a very long time, but... So, I did my tour. My unit went, did a tour in Vietnam for a year, so my... I had two guys that were in my unit that I was hooking up with, and David had his own guys that he was with and so we never -- we stayed friends that way. There was Benny, and he was a good old southern boy, and there was Joe, and he was a badass, and he was from Pittsburgh. I mean they were both secretive about what was going on, but Joe was really -- he was more of a risk taker, and we almost got caught once or twice, but it was all smoothed out. But Benny was the one that I really, really liked. My time with the unit was almost up, and I was going to be shipped back home. The unit still had another I think, like two months or so before the whole unit was coming back. I said to Benny, I says, "I really like you, and I'd like to stay in." He says, "I like you too, but when I get home, I'm going to get married, I'm going to have a family, and this is all going to be behind me." He says, "This is -- it was good while we were here, and we had fun," and he says, "I love the way you work my body and --" which was -- made me happy but. So, I said, "Okay," so home I came, got off active duty, went back into the reserves. I stayed with the CB unit just about my entire 30 years with the exception of my A school and my time in Philadelphia, the naval hospital, and a year and a half with all the medical MASH unit, everything was with the CBs. And by that time, we had had -- Don't Ask, Don't Tell was in place, so a lot of the guys knew, suspected that I was gay, but nothing was ever discussed. I know, I know that when I was in Vietnam, the group of us that were gay hung around together, and everybody knew that we were gay, the commanding officer knew that we were gay. But because the job that we did was important, we didn't flaunt our sexuality, and as long as we did what we were there to do, who cares what you are. I mean we had one guy, and he was the commanding officer's personal driver, so whenever he had this -- he had to go somewhere off the base, he was the one. He was the only one that was discharged -- not for being gay. He had contracted sexually transmitted disease six times while he was in country. Two is it, and he overlooked that, they said, "That's it, you're out." So he was the only one that was discharged for -- and not even being gay but for having that many sexual transmitted diseases in the time that we were there, so... But in the time that I was in country, you were given a week of what's called R& ; R, rest and recreation, so I decided to go to Japan for my R& ; R. Me and my other friend, we went together, we shared a room, and he was gay also, but we didn't do anything, and he was from Connecticut. We went to this bar, a bunch of us, and all of a sudden, all these women are lined up behind us in the bar, and they all come over to each one of us that was there and picked us up. They were hookers, so okay, that wasn't my plan, but I went home with this Japanese woman, I believe her name was Judith, she had an American name, Judith, spoke very good English and also very good Japanese. But I thought, okay, one night ; I was with her for five days. She hid my clothing ; I was naked the whole time I was there. We had so much sex, I was -- I hate saying it, but I was sore, I was sore, (laughs) and I know I needed to get back because I had to get back to my unit. Fortunately, she had to go out and do -- meet somebody or something and so I was able to retrieve my clothing, got myself dressed, and got the hell out of there, and I got back to the hotel that I paid for that I didn't have any time to spend there, so... The other crazy thing about that incident is also that her pimp lived in the same apartment building but on a different floor, and he wanted... Of course I paid her yen or however much it was, and he wanted to learn how to play poker. I know some poker but not very good at it, so I'm teaching what I know, and of course, I'm winning, so I got all my money back. (laughs) That's just a side story for that, so... So that was my real first, full sexual encounter with a woman. It was good, I'm not going to say it wasn't, it was good, it was different, but it was good. So now I'm back in country, and we're out on patrol, and this little village that we were going to, some of the guys that were within patrol wanted to get laid. So they find a whole bunch of willing women and says, "Come on, Doc, come on Doc, get in this, get in this too," so I went, "ah, I really don't want to." But I did get this one girl -- woman, a Vietnamese woman, and we went into her hut, and I gave her some money, and I says, "I don't want to have sex," so she was okay with that. We just laid there, we cuddled with each other and talked, and I think she was fine with that -- we didn't do anything -- and I was definitely fine with that. So that was my sexual encounters there in country and in there. So, I come back, and now, the wild days are starting, and I am back at the state hospital and then these two women came in from Northampton County Community College and did an in-service for the orderlies, because we were considered orderlies, about a new program that were starting up with the college of nursing program, a two-year nursing, and was anybody interested. So I thought, why not? I went to nursing school. That was from '68 to '70. I was the first male to graduate from the nursing program, and I got a job at St. Luke's. I was the first male nurse to work in labor and delivery. I was there for 65 deliveries, three sets of twins, and a set of triplets. One of my best friends who happens to be a lesbian, her name is Froggy, and then she would not care if I'm using her name or not, she's still in the area here. She wanted to have a baby, and she got pregnant, and I was there to help deliver her daughter [Tanya?], and Tanya is a grandmother, which means that Froggy is a great-grandmother. This could be another story maybe for another time, unless we have time during this time, but how I met Froggy, that's another interesting story, which I may get to because it happened in Atlantic City, which I haven't even gotten to yet, so... And that's where this is taking me now. The early days for me of gay life really occurred after I had come out. So, my coming-out story is -- I graduated from William Allen High School in 1961. My best friend there was Tommy, and Tommy is -- unfortunately, he is dead, and there was a tragic story for that too, that's another story. But he and I would eat lunch every day together, it didn't matter if it was snowing out or raining out, we would sit on [Mrs. Souter's?] porch at 17th and Linden Street. The place is still there, but I think she's long gone. Anyway, so we graduate, I go to work at the state hospital, Tommy goes to work for what was then the Globe-Times newspaper in Bethlehem. And he calls me up, and says, he and a friend Eddie were at this bar in New York, and they thought that I would like it and would like to go sometime. I said, "Yeah, sure." So, we made arrangements, they picked me up after work, we went up to New York City, we get out into the Village. The name of the bar was the Cherry Lane, it was in an alley. The place is no more, also another tragic thing there, that place burned down. But you went into the bar, and it was very dimly lit, a long bar, a lot of people, mostly men, in fact I think it was all men, but it's just not clicking with at the time. And I'm hearing the music and -- but I don't see a jukebox anywhere around. So, there was a big, dark velvet curtain that was alongside of the bar, and if you paid two dollars more, you could go behind the curtain, and you could dance. So, we paid our two dollars, we'd go back, people are dancing, again the guys. Still, it's not resonating with me. Duh, I'm still naïve, and we're having a good time. We're dancing together, guys are dancing with guys, guys are dancing by themselves, just really good. So, we leave, and on our way home, Tommy says to me, "Well, how'd you like the bar?" I said, "Oh," I said, "it was really fun," I said, "we should come back again." He says, "You know it was a gay bar," and I thought, okay, what did they know about me? Did somebody say something, or did I say something or whatever, I had no idea, I said, "Oh, okay." So back in Allentown, we used to get together Fridays and Saturday nights, right, Eddie, me, and Tommy. Sometimes Tommy would drive, sometimes Eddie would drive, sometimes I would drive depending, whatever it was. And we would just be cruising down Hamilton Street and up and around the streets, just doing the loop because that time Hamilton Street. -- up and around the streets just doing the loop because at the time Hamilton Street was both ways as were all the other side streets and that. So we had parked the car, and we were walking at Ninth and Hamilton where Hess is, Hess Brothers used to be. And they had these huge windows -- display windows and, oh, the mannequins in there, and it was always whatever time or the season it was, that's what they were dressed up for. So we're looking at the windows, and we're posing like the mannequins in there, doing goofy stuff, and across the street was this restaurant, it was called Rube's. It was the only Chinese restaurant in town, and it was owned by a Jewish man, (laughs) best Chinese you'd get anywhere other than Chinatown. And these two women were over there in front of the place, and they're yelling at us, "Hey, what are you guys doing?" and we said, "Oh, no, stuff, just fooling around." They said, "Hey, you want to come into the bar?" and we said, "No, we're not 21 yet." And that was the reason why we went to New York because you could drink at 18, so we were old enough to drink in New York but not in Pennsylvania. And we said, "No, no," we said, "we're not 21," they said, "Ah, don't worry, we can get you in, not a problem." So, in we go, and they introduce us to all of their friends, and all of their friends were gay, and we thought, oh, this is good. And Beverly said, "Well, welcome to Rube's, it's the gayest spot in town," and it was the gayest spot in town because at nine o'clock every night when Hess is closed, everybody congregated in Rube's, and a lot of the male workers were gay, and that was the only place they could go, so that's how it was. So, I had met my friend, Ron -- I'm not sure if Ron's alive or not yet -- another stunning guy, and I went home with him, and oh -- well, anyway. But not that night, that was another time. So, we leave the bar, I go home, I'm living -- at this time, I'm living with my grandparents because I'm kind of estranged from my mother. We had an outing, and I didn't want to -- even though we still worked at the same place, I didn't see her, she really didn't see me. I go home, I'd go into my bedroom, I took all my clothing off, I stepped in front of the full-length mirror, and I said, "Welcome, you're gay," and I never looked back. It's who I am today, so I accepted the fact that that's who -- I knew there was a reason why I like boys, men, it's who I like, yeah. That's my outing of how I -- two straight women, but three of us out. I'm still friends with Eddie ; Eddie is still alive, Eddie is a little older than I am, and he lives in Quakertown with two other older friends of mine that are friends of his. I see them every once a while, but I get emails every once in a while, from Eddie. So now, we have... I'm out of the military, and this is before or -- this is just prior to me going into nursing school. Let me jump back a little bit. There was a bar on Six Street -- on Sixth Street in Allentown between Hamilton and Linden, it was called The 23 Bar. A lot of people went there, but it was mostly women and mostly lesbians then. Three of the women that I worked with at the hospital were lesbians. One, her name was [Ronnie?], again I don't know if she's alive or now, she -- if she's alive, she's got to be in her eighties or nineties. The first time I seen Ronnie at the hospital, I thought Ronnie was a guy. Oh, my God, I mean I looked at this person, and I immediately got aroused. I thought, oh, wow, this guy is so freaking good-looking, so... [Gina?], who was the other lesbian, now her sister also worked at the hospital, and she was a nurse, but Gina was an orderly, and she said, "Let's go to the -- let's go to The 23 after work." So we went to The 23, and who's in there but Ronnie. I said to Gina, I says, "Oh, my God, who is that guy? He is so good-looking." And she said, "David, he's a lesbian," I says, "No," I was so brought down, but anyway. So that was that bar and then you had Rube's where the guys went. Now, I'm out of the military, and prior to starting nursing school, there was a new bar that was opening up, and it was called The Rendezvous, which was The 23 Bar, and I think I had mentioned that you before. And [Larry John?] who is deceased, he and a friend of him who was a German and spoke very little English, opened up this bar because we needed something more than Rube's, right? So, he opened up this -- the bar, and he asked me because he knew I knew how to dance and stuff like that. He says, "I want to have some entertainment in here, and I'd like to have like a go-go boy-type thing to bring in patrons," so he said, "Are you interested?," and I said, "Yeah, yeah." The pay wasn't great, but tips were good. And I got to tell you that he had been involved with -- one, two, three, four -- four different bars, okay. Every bar that he had, that he had me work at, he had sex with me on the bar after the place closed, and so... So I said, "Yeah," so I was the go-go boy, and I was the first go-go boy in Allentown when that stuff was starting to get up because you had the go-go girl dancers and all this other, but you didn't have guys doing that stuff. And then if there was guys, they were in the straight bars where a lot of the women would go, almost like the Chippendale type thing, but I wasn't stripping. So, he had that bar for a while and then the co-owner, the German guy decided that he didn't want to be any part of this, so he got out of the business. So somehow, Larry gets hooked up with the owners of what was then the LeHiKhai, and that was on Hamilton Street between Eighth and Ninth -- no, Ninth and 10th, Ninth and 10th, and he asked me to go-go up there, which is what I did. Now the pay was increasing a little more, and the tips were really good too, and then he again had sex with me there after it closed. And then now around '69 or so is when you had the Stonewall riots in New York. So he decided that he wanted to do something to keep the spark alive of the bar, so he -- and now he has a partner, Frank, and they open up the Stonewall on 10th Street, the Moose Lodge, that's what it was, the Moose Lodge, four floors. The top floor was apartments, the... There was the bar, and then there was the Moose Lounge, and then above that was the apartments. So you had the basement, he converted -- the basement had a bowling alley in it, and he converted that into a bar. He wanted it to be like a leather-type bar for bikers and that stuff. Well, it lasted for maybe a year and a half, two years, and that fizzled out. Then you had the regular bar where you would come in, then the second floor was the Moose Lounge with a big bar and then a dining area because they used to do breakfast after the bar closed. And then you would go-go up, and there was a go-go -- you could go-go upstairs or you could go-go on the main floor, either in the corner of the bar or they had -- they also had a stage where the deejay was, and money was really good. Of course, the bar closes, Larry has sex with me there. I lose touch with Larry after X amount of years, and so let me revert back. So from that time prior to all of that, we now have Atlantic City. Atlantic City was exciting ; It was like another version prior to me going to -- well no, I take that back. Atlantic City to me was like the New Orleans of the East Coast, right? The gay life down there was so much fun. Now I had graduated from nursing school, I'm working where I'm working, and I was living with a friend of mine who just passed away four months ago, he was older than me. I lived with him for 10 years, again nothing between the two of us, but I thought of myself as a whore, he was a real whore, let me tell you. He would pick up -- there was a place in Pembroke, it was called the [Rainbow Luncheonette?]. It was a straight place, it was owned by a married couple, an older couple, and they had pinball machines in there, and a lot of young guys would come in there. And we were in there one night, it was him and me, and he -- we called him Mother Vern. He drove only Lincolns, big Lincolns. His parents lived in Freemansburg ; they're gone. And so he would pile in all these kids in his car, and we'd drive down to his parents' house. His parents were in bed, they were very sound sleepers, we'd be entertaining all these guys in the kitchen. Vern would be in the living room with one, he'd finish with that one, and he'd yell, "Next." The next one would go in. He did all 10 guys in one night, I didn't do any of them, I was just -- I was the entertainment. But I said we lived together for 10 years until I moved, and that was in 1980 when I moved from where we lived to the Trailer Court, which is another part but we would go... Now I was no longer working at the hospital, I was working for Olin Corporation in their medical department. And Memorial Day weekend, Fourth of July weekend, and Labor Day weekend were our weekends in Atlantic City. We would go the day before the weekend started, and we would come back the day after the weekend was over, and we would stay at different places down there. Mostly the travel lodges where you had your own kitchen and that little dining area and two beds and a shower and all that good stuff, balcony. We would go down there, and we would get all set up, we get changed around, go out to what was -- the first bar we would go to would be the Lark Inn. The Lark Inn was right on New York Avenue, but it was right off the Boardwalk. It was the first bar if you were coming off of the Boardwalk, and New York would be on the left-hand side. And above the Lark Inn was the Cell Block, that was the leather bar. But you would go in there, and it was just -- it was almost like a peanut bar. They had big things with peanuts, and you put it and you just throw the shells on the floor and that stuff. So, we would go in there, we'd have a drink ; I'd have a beer, he'd have a highball. And then he would go his way, and I would go my way. And there were weekends when we were down there, we didn't see each other at all until it was time to go home because he was after the young ones, okay, and I was the dance queen. I needed to hit the discos and all that good stuff. Also, the Lark Inn was the place to go to for tea dance after the beach. Everybody was -- the place was packed, and they had stadium seating in the back, then they had the dance floor, then you had the bar and the peanuts, and all that other good stuff, so... But that's what we would do. And then I would go either to the M& ; M disco, and I'd be dancing there for -- till maybe 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning, and then I'd leave there and I would go to the Grand Hotel. The Grand Hotel had -- for lack of better words, it was like a porno shop, movie house, and you paid five bucks, you could stay long as you want. You'd go in, and to the left was like a corral where you just stand around and guys will be having sex standing up, somebody would be on their knees, or whatever. And then to the right was like a theater -- seats and then a huge screen. They'd be showing porn 24 hours, it didn't matter, 24 hours. And then to the back, there was lofts, there was three levels of lofts with cushions, and big cushions and pillows. And you could go up, and that's usually -- I went up there, and I'd lay down, and I'd be naked, and guys would come up and just have sex with me or I have sex with them, you could smoke pot. I wasn't introduced to poppers there. I was introduced to poppers with the first black man that I had sex with, and that was in The Drake Hotel. But anyway, so I would be in there for a good 24 hours, didn't eat, didn't do anything, just have sex. I'd come out, and it's daylight, I thought, oh, my God. That didn't happen all the time, but some of the times, we would go -- we'd go to the bars together and then we'd go to dinner. We would take food with us, and we could cook in our area. If you're looking down New York Avenue from the Boardwalk, on the left side was the Lark Inn and the Cell Block. You went down, and there was Ruby's. Now Ruby's was kind of like a drag show bar, and the bartender just happened to be Larry. So he says, "Oh my God," and we're talking and that, and I said to him, I said, "I need to go to the bathroom," he says, "Well, I'll show you where it's at." So he took me back, he had to and I had to, it was like a thing, but then that was that one. And then you went down, further down the street, and you had on the same side, left side, you had the Cameo. Cameo was a hotel, restaurant, disco. They had the original stainless steel dance floor, ah, it was wild, and they had an in-ground pool. It was the only one in the area that had an in-ground pool, and then next to that was the Grand Hotel, which was a hotel, and then the porn shop. On the other side of the street looking down again from the Boardwalk was the Chez Paree. The Chez was three or four stories, and they had a dance floor that would raise up to all three levels, it was pretty cool, and that was the lesbian disco. That's where I met Froggy, okay ; I won't go into that story. And then you go down a little further on the side was the Saratoga. The Saratoga was -- they had the laser beam, the show, and then you went to the Holiday House, which is one of the places that we would stay. It was just a room and then you had a communal bathroom, you didn't have a private bath in that. And then the Rendezvous that was two floors. The downstairs was a big bar with just people just milling around, then you went upstairs, and there's another nice-sized bar, but it was more quiet up there. The music was downstairs ; there was no music upstairs. And then at the end of that block of New York and Atlantic Avenue was [Corn Finds?]. That was the restaurant that was open 24 hours, and they had served the best breakfast, and it was cheap. It was like two bucks for bacon, eggs, and all that, whatever you wanted. Now, if you're next to where Ruby's was on the left side, it was called Snake Alley, and you went that way, and on the right-hand side was Luisa's. Luisa's was a piano bar that was really more for the older crowd, which would be my age now. So if you were young and good-looking and you went in there, your drinks were always free. And then down a little further on the same side as Luisa's was the Frat House. That was a house-type thing for college kids, college guys that were gay that stayed there, and across the street was The Drake Hotel, but it was the back entrance for the M& ; M Disco. You walk in through there, mirror just all over the place, and then you went to the piano bar first, and then if you took a right and went down some steps, then you went into the disco, dance floor area. It wasn't a huge place, but that's where they had the fog machines, so sometimes you couldn't see who you were dancing with, and it really got... But part of that was the hotel itself, The Drake Hotel, and that was a very cruisy area. My first experience with poppers -- and for those who may not know what poppers are, they're something that you inhale, and it gives you an instant high. And it's something that you do on the dance floor to make your dancing more intense, or if you're having sex, to make your orgasm really out there. So, it was the day that we were leaving, but it was earlier, it was early in the afternoon. We usually didn't leave there till about 5:00 or 6:00 at night. And I'm walking through the hall, cruising the halls and this tall, black -- sorry, this tall black man spots me, and he says, "Hey, you, come here," so I thought, okay. So I went into the room with him, and we're having sex. And he knows that I'm getting very close to climax, and he breaks these ampoules because it was -- that's what they were at that time, they were ampoules, and he stuck one on one nose and one at the other, he's not taking it, deep breath, and I went [inhales], and -- I didn't think I was ever going to stop coming, sorry. It was just so intense, and that was the first black man that I had -- ever had sex with, it was great, it was fun. So, then we come home, but -- oh, and then off of Atlantic Avenue in the alley -- I can't remember what the name of the alley was -- was a place called the Brass Rail. That was the true lesbian bar. You couldn't get in there if you were a guy, it was girls only, girls only, so, which is fine, I mean I'm a girl, so. So that was really Atlantic City. There were some other little places here or there that you could go to, but basically, everything was concentrated in that, on New York Avenue -- New York Avenue and Kentucky Avenue. And then that all went down the hill when Trump opened up his casino, so all gay life -- the last bar that closed was -- actually was the Brass Rail, and they only closed maybe two years ago. It's either prior to or right in the first year of COVID it got closed, so there is nothing, nothing there anymore but, uh... Everything then moved to Rehoboth, I mean Rehoboth is nice, but there really isn't anything going on in Rehoboth, hardly anymore, which is sad. So that's the Atlantic City story. I was working at Olin, I worked at Olin from '72 to '87, and we all lost our jobs because the company was sold to somebody else, and they didn't want to keep any of us, so... At the time I was working there, I -- now all these times I was still in the reserves because I didn't retire until '93. I would go to military events, but I always took a woman with me, and then of course, the women that we went with me were lesbians, so, and they were always the -- what we called the lipstick lesbians, the glamorous, all that stuff. Sorry, I don't mean to offend anybody, but that's how it was back then. So one of the women that I worked with at Olin, her name is Donna, and she had a partner who eventually became my wife but... So she would go to these different things, but they got laid off and then they moved from Allentown to Delaware, and then from Delaware they moved to -- back to New York because my ex-wife was originally from New York. Donna is from -- it's either Pottstown or Pottsville ; I always get those two mixed up. Anyway to make a long story short, I am now -- I have now moved out of Mother Vern's house, and I am living in Terre Hill, the trailer park ; I became trailer trash. But the reason I moved there was because I was dating a guy who was the bartender at The Rendezvous in Atlantic City. His name was Don, and I thought this is going to be great, wow, I'm finding somebody, it's going to be good because all these years was just willy-nilly. And it just turned out to be not a good situation, so -- I don't want to get into that. So here I am, I have a trailer that I thought was going to be for the both of us, and now it's just me. January twenty-third, two days from now, I was at -- Froggy's grandmother had died, and I was one of the pallbearers, so I was with her all the afternoon till the early evening. And I said I needed to go because I was going to this Christmas party because at that point, I was starting to pledge for a leather club, and it was the Reading Railmen that were out of Reading, and it was being hosted by a friend of mine, Steve. So, I went home, I get changed around, and I go to Steve's place, and he lived at 16th and Turner in an apartment building. He had the second and third floor, but you had to get his place on the side and you slung. So, I ring the bell, I open up the door, and there's this cute guy standing at the top of the stairs. I didn't think anything, just that he was cute. So, I went up and said hello to him and then I went and put my coat where it had to go and start milling around. I get myself a drink and then I ran into my friend Kevin who I had known for -- since he was a teenager, and he was there with his boyfriend at the time Michael. Kevin had worked at the Hotel Traylor prior to that. I'm not sure where he was working at the time that I met him, he wasn't working there anymore when they had a restaurant there, and Michael worked in Philadelphia somewhere, but anyway. So they introduced me to this guy that was there at the top of the stairs, his name was Will, and I thought, okay. So I talked to him for a little bit and then I went to mill around again. Now there was another guy there, his name was Keith -- no, Kenneth, Kenneth. He was quite drunk, and he was coming through the narrow hallway, and Will was still standing at the same spot as he was, and this guy bumps into him, spills his drink all over Will. So I see this, I said, oh, this poor guy. So I went and I got some towels and some paper towels, I brought it to him and helped pat him down and got rid of that stuff, and I started talking. I got him a fresh drink, because his drink was spilled too, and myself a drink, and we started talking. And I said, "If you're not doing anything, if you want to come home, come home," and he did to the trailer park. That was January 23, 1981, and he never left. When I met him, he was working for what was then the Holiday Inn out on 309 and 78. I'm not sure what it is now, but anyway, he was working as a painter, and he was quite a drinker and quite the druggie. And I had just gotten over -- January seventh, I had gone into the hospital for a hemorrhoid operation, okay, so I had all kinds of drugs in the house that were not helping me. The only thing that was helping me was pot, and I didn't have any pot, but anyway. So he started taking some of the drugs, but anyway, he wiped out my entire drug thing and all the alcohol that I had too, but of course, I was a drinker back then too. So we were there at the trailer from '81 until '84. And my mother had to move from where she was, I'm talking about -- by this time I'm back with -- I'm okay with my mother, we're friends, and all this other good stuff. Because the landlady where she lived had died, and she needed to go somewhere, so I said, "Well, we're looking for house, so we found a house," I said, "you can have the trailer if you want it." So we moved us out into where -- the house that I still have, we moved my mother into the trailer, and the rest was history from there on, but she was there until 1987. Now, my ex-wife prior to her being my wife, we had gone to a couple of military functions, and we had, over the course of those years, intercourse. I guess I was kind of in a bisexual phase, I don't know. So, anyway that being said, December 21, 1987, Will gets a phone call from my mother to wish him a happy birthday, we were having a birthday dinner at the house, and she hung up, and we started eating dinner. We're just about finished dinner and then I got -- I was on the phone with somebody else -- I don't know if it was somebody else -- and I get an interruption from an operator saying you have an emergency phone call from the woman that lived down below, the trailer girl who was friends with my mother. So I talked to her, I said, "What's up?" She says, "There's something wrong with your mother, what should I do?" I said, "Well, call 911, I mean, duh," which she did and I said, "I'll be right out." So we flew out, and by the time I got there, she was gone, but she was the last person that talked to Will on his birthday. And that's still difficult for me because I lost her, and of course, I lost my husband, but... So I didn't know what to do, and I had called my ex-wife and said, "I need help, I've never had to do any of this before." So she came down from New York. She had a job that she could -- she worked for an insurance company, so she was able to do what she needed to do. So she came down, and she was with me for -- getting the arrangements and the lawyer and all that good stuff, the funeral, and she went back on Christmas Eve. We buried my mother on Christmas Eve and then her and Donna were coming down for New Year's Eve, to spend New Year's Eve with us, which is what they did. And Will was a smoker, a cigarette smoker, and had run out cigarettes, so he and Donna went to the store to get cigarettes and some more booze. I had just gotten out of the shower, and Betsy had given me a bottle of Calvin Klein Obsession, which I loved, loved. So I put some on, and I'm still not dressed yet, and she comes over to me and puts her hands under my robe and gets me all excited, and she drops her pants, and we had sex under the Christmas tree. So we got cleaned up just in time for them to come back, and we had New Year's Eve, okay. Mid-January, she calls me, and she says, "I'm late." I said, "Yeah, late for what?" She says, "I'm late." I said, "Oh, you're late?" She said, "Yes." "What do you want to do?" I said. "I don't know" because we had -- the four of us had talked about having kids and a family and who was going to do what. So I said to her, "Well, let's get married," which is what we did. We had a military wedding, a full military wedding at the Chapel at Lakehurst, the naval base. We were only supposed to have a total of a hundred people there, but it wound up that I was there -- it happened that I was there. Our wedding was on our -- a weekend that my drill unit was there, and they all knew that I was getting married, and they all crashed the party, (inaudible) not the wedding but the reception stuff, but anyway, all is -- it was -- all is well. The only thing that I had to pay for was the rings, the marriage license, that was it. Her sister and her brother-in-law paid for the entire wedding, the food, open bar, everything, and the honeymoon, the entire honeymoon crew or the whole wedding party went to Atlantic City for our honeymoon. Betsy and I had the bridal suite for the honeymoon suite and then Donna and Will were going to have the other room. Well, my ex-wife didn't want to have anything to do with the bridal suite ; the deed had already been done. So Will and I had the bridal suite, a big, heart-shaped, bubble the --ah, God, it was so gaudy -- and they had that, so... We met down in the -- at the -- we were -- we sit at the casino, and I can't remember what the name of the casino was, it wasn't Trump's. But my ex-wife and Donna wanted to go gamble -- well, Donna really didn't want to go gambling, but she went to gamble, so they went to gamble, and Will and I went to the bars, so... That was how that happened. MF: We're at 90 minutes if you can believe it, and so this is typically where we'd start to wind down in the interview. I think we have a lot more to talk about, and perhaps we should schedule a second interview. DM: Oh, okay. MF: But I don't want to stop you abruptly. So we've talked about a kind of first, maybe even the half of your life. And before we close the interview today, I'm just wondering if there's anything about what you've shared so far -- and we'll do a second interview, so we'll get into more it -- DM: Okay. MF: -- but if there's anything about what you've shared so far, that you thought, oh, I wish I would've shared this or I missed this story. And I just want to give you the opportunity to -- DM: I need to go back -- MF: -- have something that you feel is really pertinent to what you shared so far? DM: Oh. ANTHONY DALTON: While you're doing that I'm going to switch this card out real quick just in case. MF: Okay. So we'll just -- DM: What we may need to redo is when I -- when I looked at myself in the full-length mirror, I said, "Hello world, I'm gay," that's what I wanted to say, and I don't think I've said that. MF: I love that story so much. And what a powerful coming-out story because of -- it's not in the public way. I mean certainly you were out in a public way at the bars and with your friends and then with Will. But what a personal coming-out story, like to see yourself and this is me. DM: This is me, yeah. I didn't look back and I just -- I'm me, take me as I am. MF: Yeah. DM: Well I didn't get to talk about my first love after my uncle's death, and that would've been Robert. MF: Do you want to share some about Robert now before we close the interview? DM: Yeah, we can, yeah, because I -- yeah, we can do that if we want to. MF: Okay. DM: What I really wanted to talk about also was my first love -- my other first love between my uncle and William, and that was Robert. I met Robert in the bathroom of Arner's Diner, which was in Allentown. The diner is still the diner, but it's not in the spot that it was originally. It's now at the corner of Ninth and Linden, and I think it's the city something or other. But anyway, we had been in Rube's, and after Rube's closed, the only places you'd go to was the diner, otherwise you went home because there was no bookstores or anything like that at that time. So we went to the diner, and I was -- I had gone into the bathroom, and my friend Tony was in with Robert, they were talking, there was nothing going on between them. But he introduced me to Robert because he didn't introduce me to him at the bar at Rube's because it's -- Rube's is where we were all at. And I looked at Robert, and Robert looked at me, and -- now it was just the two of us. His hands went right down my pants, and my hands went down his pants. I thought, oh my God, this is a Marine, and he is so good-looking. So I wound up taking him home because he didn't have a car because he was still in the Marines. We had mad, passionate sex in the back seat of my car in front of his mother's house. (laughs) And we were together for almost seven years and then he had finished his tour and came home and had gone to -- there was a business school in Easton at the time, I can't remember what the name of it, but it was a business school. And he decided this was not the career path that he wanted to go on, he wanted to go back into the military. So he asked me if I would take him down to Washington, DC, because he was going to re-up again, and I said, "You're choosing the Marines over me?" and he said, "Sorry." So I dropped him off, I cried all the way home, went to see some friends, and they were consoling me, and I thought, oh -- I was just so down. I didn't talk to him for a while and then I had heard because then he was -- he went back to Vietnam, and he is the recipient of three Purple Hearts. He should be dead, should've been dead, not that I'm wishing that, but he made it through. We are best friends now, and I remind him all the time, Bobby we've been together 60 years. He has a husband who is Mexican, lives in Palm Springs, so I go out to Palm Springs every year during -- usually the first week of November because it's the last Pride in the United States for the year was in Palm Springs, and I stay with he and his husband. Will and I when we were married, we were married in their living room. He is my best friend, he is going through -- he has prostate cancer and Agent Orange, and he is still going through chemo treatments for over 10 years. He goes every other Monday for chemo. He is the only living member of his clinical trial group that's still alive, and they don't know why he's still alive, so... But I love Robert to death, and he loves me. We talk at least once a week on the phone, and he wants to come back to visit because he has not been to -- he was not able to get back here for his mother's funeral years ago, but he wants to go back for that and go up to New York and do some traveling there but... So I'd just like to leave with that for now. MF: Wonderful. Well, I want to say for the day, David, thank you so much. It's so wonderful to hear your stories today. I'm so grateful that you took the time, and I can't wait for our next interview. Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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David Moyer Part 1, January 21, 2022
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David Moyer recounts his early years, sexuality, and his experiences with gay community in Allentown and Atlantic City.
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LGBT-23
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2022-01-21
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives.
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives.
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Stories of Lehigh Valley LGBTQ+ Community Members (2022 - )
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Mary Foltz
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David Moyer
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5.4 February 11, 2022 David Moyer Part 2, February 11, 2022 LGBT-24 1:23:25 LVLGBT-2022 Stories of Lehigh Valley LGBTQ+ Community Members (2022 - ) Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository Support for the collection of this interview was provided by the American Council of Learned Societies (ACLS). trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg David Moyer Mary Foltz video/mp4 MoyerDavid_20220211_video_trimmed 1.0:|33(7)|56(15)|73(9)|92(11)|113(16)|132(4)|147(5)|162(8)|185(4)|204(9)|227(5)|248(3)|267(4)|286(2)|307(10)|330(14)|351(10)|374(7)|395(12)|414(11)|431(11)|450(8)|475(13)|490(12)|507(11)|526(10)|547(8)|562(18)|583(11)|600(6)|615(13)|632(7)|651(2)|666(12)|683(10)|700(13)|721(6)|740(13)|761(6)|776(4)|791(17)|810(9)|827(3)|844(3)|863(13)|882(12)|899(6)|920(13)|937(2)|954(10)|971(15)|988(8)|1003(7)|1020(2)|1035(4)|1054(10)|1075(2)|1092(5)|1111(9)|1126(10)|1145(11)|1160(10)|1177(18)|1188(3)|1205(3)|1226(10)|1247(3)|1258(15)|1279(8)|1294(16)|1307(18)|1324(12)|1341(6)|1356(10)|1375(14)|1392(14)|1405(15)|1418(10)|1433(7)|1452(5)|1473(2)|1486(3)|1503(9)|1514(6) 0 https://youtu.be/yzjoiwcuTtk YouTube video English 0 Interview Introductions MF: My name is Mary Foltz, and I’m here with David Moyer to talk about his life and experience in LGBTQ organizations in the Lehigh Valley as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. This year, our project has funding from ACLS, and David and I are meeting at Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College on February 11, 2022. So, David, thank you again for speaking to me today.
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 ; DM: My pleasure. 0 73 First Year of Marriage / Daughter's Birth MF: Great. So this is our second interview, I’m so excited to be back with you today and we ended our last interview with a discussion of your marriage, so I thought we’d start there. Could you tell me a little bit about your marriage and that first year of married life? 
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 ; DM: Oh, sure, yeah. The main reason that we got married was because my former wife was pregnant, and that was a long story I think, which is part -- in the first part. But what I didn’t get to say was we had -- well, we had a military wedding. It was a Lakehurst, New Jersey, and it was the Chapel of the Air on the base. 0 422 Finding a New Job / HIV/AIDS Work with the Allentown Health Department DM: Now, I had started at Olin Corporation in 1972, and they closed in October of 1988, it was just a few months after our daughter was born. And the bad thing about that was the day I lost my full-time job at Olin, I also lost my part-time job as an aerobics instructor and fitness instructor with the Body Factory, and they were located in Whitehall at the time, so I had no income. 
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 ; Well, the only income I had was my reserve time, and that was once a month, so it wasn’t very much. The interesting thing is that one of my aerobic students at that time had worked for the Morning Call, and she was one of two reporters, health reporters for the city. And Rose knew about my medical background, that I was a nurse, and all that so she said, “There’s a position that’s opened up at the -- in the city of Allentown at the health department that you might be good at.” She’s like, “And I don’t know that you might -- ” she says, “I know you’re really good at it,” so she gave me the information of who to go see in that. 0 830 Allentown in the Early HIV/AIDS Crisis DM: Let me take you back to the start of HIV/AIDS, and this may help paint a better picture of what was happening in Allentown back in the day. On June 5th of 1981, the CDC, Center for Disease Control in Atlanta, Georgia, reported a few cases of a rare disease in young, gay men and intravenous drugs users. The symptoms such as Kaposi’s sarcoma and Pneumocystis pneumonia, they’re generally usually seen in older individuals. 
 ; 
 ; The pneumonia is typically seen in patients who were static from surgery, so they have to be flat and not moved, and that they would develop this Pneumocystis pneumonia, which is in the lungs. And then the other form with the Kaposi, it’ a form of cancer that is usually seen in elderly, Mediterranean men, now -- and that can be internal or external. What happens is it leaves these -- looks like black and blue marks on the body like the person was beat-up, and those black and blue marks can be either internal or external. 0 1087 Formation of Fighting AIDS Continuously Together (FACT) / HIV/AIDS Counseling & ; Testing at Rainbow Mountain DM: So fast-forward to 19 -- the years 1985, ’86 in Allentown, Pennsylvania. A group of concerned citizens mostly from the Stonewall Bar, Candida’s Bar, and Jeff’s City Line Pub, and the patrons who supported these establishments, these people live and work in Lehigh Valley formed what is known as FACT, Fighting AIDS Continuously Together. 
 ; 
 ; They held an event called The FACT Bar Games, which was held in the gay resort in the Poconos at Rainbow Mountain. That was the summer of 1986. This was all due to the AIDS crisis in the Lehigh Valley. I had heard about FACT, but I really didn’t know or participate in any of their fundraising events. 0 1384 Joining the FACT Board DM: So I think it was about 1992, I went to -- I was asked to come to a board meeting, which is what I did, and that time they were meeting at -- in one of the meeting rooms at what was then the Hilton at Ninth and Hamilton, and they had probably 25 people on their board at that time. We’re down to 13 now at present. 
 ; 
 ; So they asked me if I wanted to join the board, and I said, “Sure, why not?” By now, I have lost some people and -- but my first -- first person I had lost even before I got into -- with the city, I was still working at Olin, and a good friend of mine, his name was Chuck, would always go to Atlantic City for the summer. 0 1737 FACT Beginnings and Events DM: Yeah, oh, thank you. Well, FACT, like I said, started -- was really started in 1986 -- ’85–’86 with our -- for the LGBT community because nothing was being done for their friends that were passing from AIDS. So their first events -- first event was this game up in -- a bar game up in -- at Rainbow Mountain in the Poconos. And at that time, we had a lot of bars, so we had the Stonewall Bar, we had Candida’s, we had Jeff’s City Line Pub, we had the Red Star from Reading, we had the Glass Door, we had Blue Bugle up in the Stroudsburg area. 0 2158 Educating through FACT DM:And like I said, the education component, we always have that at an event. Whether we’re doing bingo for Pride, we always have an information table along with condoms and dental dams and lubrication and all that good stuff that -- for safe sex. We’re still promoting safe sex. Even this day and age, we still need to do that. 
 ; 
 ; One of things that I had incorporated in was being that I work for the health department, I was able to go more places, and one of the big educational components for me was in the prison. And we were in the prison every Thursday to do education on a different unit because they had 12 different units in the local prison here, and then we would get people to sign up for testing, then we would go in on a Friday with our crew and just do testing. 0 2431 FACT Board Diversity / Assisting People with Contingencies through FACT DM: Another thing that’s -- that -- and I need to say this, is that even though we support -- FACT supports the LGBT community, we are not recognized as an LGBT organization because we have both straight and gay people on our board, and that’s important for people to know. I mean the majority of us are gay but -- well, because we don’t know. 
 ; 
 ; One of the things too is that especially with the contingencies, which I’ll start talking about now, is that the -- what the contingency request is case managers at Lehigh Valley Hospital in St. Luke’s, they both have an HIV/AIDS department, and they have case managers in those departments, and they have clients -- obviously, they have clients. 0 2808 Work with the AIDS Outreach Buddy Program DM: The one major one that I really was involved with was AIDS Outreach, and they were the first organization to do -- and they were the first religious organization to do anything and that was -- they -- that stemmed out of the Episcopal church. And they started down in Easton before they moved to Allentown, and they had what was called the Buddy program. 0 2944 Other Related Organizations in the Area DM: Gilead House, which was on the state hospital grounds of Allentown, they just had gotten started and then they closed down. Berks AIDS Network, which is called BAN, they’re out of Reading, they’ve changed their whole dynamics and I think they’re doing just more than just HIV/AIDS. We used to have a Latino AIDS outreach, which we don’t have anymore. They were located -- they started in Bethlehem, they moved to Allentown. We still have HAO, Hispanic AIDS Organization. I think they’re located down where the old -- where the original Lehigh Valley Chamber of Commerce, it’s at Fifth and Walnut. I’m trying to think if we have any other organizations. 0 3074 Longtime Companion DM: One of the things that I do in my presentations is I always end my talks with one of my favorite movies is, and one of the first Hollywood big movies was called Longtime Companion, and it takes place in New York and primarily like in Fire Island, in that area. And the main character, his name is Willy, and there was a whole group of his friends that always would get together and like people still do. But he was the only one left, all his friends had died, and he’s walking on the beach in Fire Island, and the last line of the movie is, “All I want is a cure and my friends back,” and that’s how I feel. I hate this disease. I’m sorry, but [sighs] it’s tough. 0 3153 Dating Culture / The Damron Book / Gulfport, Mississippi DM: Back in the day, you had to know somebody or know where things were if you were to go and meet somebody or hook up. We don’t have that now. We have -- maybe I shouldn’t say we don’t have that now, we don’t. I’d say that we need it now, but we have the internet. The internet has changed everything for everybody, not just the gay community, but for everybody. You’d go to the bar and hopefully you meet somebody and maybe get lucky and go home. Now you can sit in the comfort of your living room in your pajamas or underwear or naked and cruise somebody on a website and have cybersex, which is safe, but it’s not fun. [laughter] 0 3472 Thoughts on the Future of the LGBT Community DM: I mean we thrived here in the Lehigh Valley, we had all these bars, we had -- the cruising places is still there, but you would have to be careful there because of the police now. It wasn’t like it was back in our days. We would drive around and around, and I’d mentioned this before with my friend Tommy and Eddie, we would drive around for hours just cruising, yeah, not necessarily picking anybody up, but you can do that. You can’t do that because you see the signs, no, no cruising 7:00 to 10:00 pm. on this street or no cruising 6:00 to 9:00 p.m. on this street. 
 ; 
 ; 
 ; So I don’t know where it’s going, I really don’t. I know that for ME as a gay man, I have lived through a lot. I’ve done a lot, there’s still more for me to do. I said when I get into this line of work with HIV that I will never stop, I won’t -- going as long as I can. I don’t want to let my friends down because I promised them that I would do this. 0 3661 First Experience with the AIDS Quilt DM: One story that I really do want to give to you is my first experience with the quilt, and it was here at Muhlenberg College, and that was, I’m going to say ’95 or ’96 when it was here. I’m not exactly sure, I think it was ’95 or ’96. We had all the organization that were still going were involved with that, and there was a training on how to display the quilt because there’s a whole ceremony. 
 ; 
 ; If you haven’t seen it, Google it because it’s something that is really it’s intense. And we had it at the -- it was the Field House here on the campus. We were in the small palestra and they had these huge boxes, there must have been 30 of these boxes if not more with the quilt panels. They come and they’re folded, so they’re telling us, “This is what you need to do. Once you have the panel, to fold the panel down it takes eight people to do it, a section.” So they said, “Go over and get one out of the box,” so we go over and get one out and put it down. And we each have our space where we’re at, and we’re opening it and it’s -- you do it very slowly. 0 3891 FACT’s Relationship to Other AIDS Organizations in the Lehigh Valley MF: I’m wondering about FACT’s relationship to other AIDS organizations?. Because you’re working in two different fields, you’re also part of the Buddy -- the Buddy program, but there was a program out of the Lambda center that I think became AIDS Services. But how are all of those organizations working together or were they not? 
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 ; DM: No, they were, -- 
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 ; MF: working together? 0 4057 Coming out with His Husband DM: I have another story that’s not really AIDS related, but it’s about my husband, about my late husband. And I guess his and my coming out -- we were together for, I’m going to say, seven or eight years, at least seven or eight years if not more. And one of the goods things is that his whole family is just great, absolutely great. But his mother and his older sister -- because his younger sister was living in Florida for like 25 years, and she’s back here now -- but they would go to a lot of the events. 0 4578 Feelings of Safety & ; Security DM: My faith community is by far the best. I have two parishioners who are originally from -- well, [Haley?] has risen from here, but her husband is Filipino, but they lived in California for years and they -- because he has -- he still has family out there, so they go out occasionally. And when Will died, passed away, somebody let them know that he had died, and they called me immediately, and they canceled the rest of their trip and came home just to help support me. Who does that? 
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 ; You hear so many horror stories in the LGBT community, getting kicked out or being spit on or being assaulted or being murdered, I feel -- there’s times where I feel guilty because I haven’t had any of that. I mean I’ve had some looks and some comments but few and far between, not by anybody in my immediate circle. 0 4857 Closing Remarks DM: Oh, I think we’ve covered... I mean I could’ve talked a bit more about my sexual experiences, but I don’t know. [laughs] That’s for the book. I’m grateful to you for wanting to do this. I’m open, I try to be as open as I can. I think we covered -- I really wanted to get in there about my husband and my marriage, which never should’ve happened, but it did. That soured me for a few years because it wasn’t -- it wasn’t me that wanted to end the divorce, it was me that ended the divorce, but it wasn’t me that was at fault. 0 MovingImage David Moyer details his marriage, work in HIV/AIDS healthcare and activism with Fighting AIDS Continuously Together (FACT), and personal relationships. INTERVIEW WITH DAVID MOYER FEBRUARY 11, 2022 MF: My name is Mary Foltz, and I'm here with David Moyer to talk about his life and experience in LGBTQ organizations in the Lehigh Valley as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. This year, our project has funding from ACLS, and David and I are meeting at Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College on February 11, 2022. So, David, thank you again for speaking to me today. DM: My pleasure. MF: We signed a consent form before we began, but I just want to go back through just a few consent questions. Do you consent to this interview today? DM: I do. MF: Do you consent to having this interview transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online? DM: I do. MF: Do you consent to the archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats like films, articles, websites, presentations? DM: I do. MF: And do you understand that you'll have 30 days after I give you the transcript of this interview to identify parts that you want to delete or to withdraw the interview from the project entirely? DM: I do. MF: Great. So this is our second interview, I'm so excited to be back with you today and we ended our last interview with a discussion of your marriage, so I thought we'd start there. Could you tell me a little bit about your marriage and that first year of married life? DM: Oh, sure, yeah. The main reason that we got married was because my former wife was pregnant, and that was a long story I think, which is part -- in the first part. But what I didn't get to say was we had -- well, we had a military wedding. It was a Lakehurst, New Jersey, and it was the Chapel of the Air on the base. It was small, we were only supposed to have a hundred people there -- well we had about a hundred people for the wedding itself, and it was only supposed to a hundred people for the reception, but unfortunately, it also happened to be a weekend that my unit that I was still a part of was drilling that weekend as well. So there were probably about, close to 300 other people there, and they just casually crashed the reception, which was fine, I mean nobody got upset at that. But one of the things too that you don't see in traditional weddings is that my then sister-in-law and brother-in-law, my wife's sister and brother-in-law, they really -- their wedding gift was the wedding. They paid for everything other than the marriage license, the blood test, and the rings. But they also paid for the honeymoon, and the entire wedding party went to Atlantic for the honeymoon. We got down there, Betsy and I were supposed to have the bridal suite, and Will and Donna were going to just have the other room. Betsy could've cared less about the wedding suite, so she said, "The two of you take it, we're fine where we are, we'll do that," sorry for [inaudible]. That's what we did and then we met down in the casino, and I -- there's a lot of things that I know remember. I don't remember the name of the casino that we stayed at. It was not Trump, and it wasn't any -- it was some awful mall one. But anyway, so we went down in their dining area, and we had something to eat, and Betsy wanted to go gamble, so her and Donna went gambling, and Will and I went barhopping because we knew the bars. So that's what we did and then I don't know what time they got back to their room, but Will and I got back later, pretty well lit. We slept in and get up in the morning, met downstairs, checked out, and then we found a diner. We didn't want to have food in the casino area, so we just did that and then we drove back to Lakehurst, and they got in their car and went back up to New York, and we came back to Pennsylvania. So that was the honeymoon adventure. Well often, Will and I would go up to New York because they were living in Yorktown Heights at the time in Upstate New York, and we would go up for the weekend. We spent a couple of times there. I would go up more than Will would because he had to work sometimes on the weekends, and that went on until -- that was March of '88. Our daughter was born April 4th of '88, and she was premature, and she was supposed to have been born in October, I don't remember the time. She was like eight or nine weeks early, she was really a preemie, so she spent several months in the hospital before they'll let her home, well until she reached the right weight. So we would go up on weekends. We didn't go to bars. I don't think I was in any gay bar up in the area where they lived because there weren't any that we knew of. And we didn't need to go to the bars because we would drink at home, and that was it. And that went on for -- the marriage was -- ended in 1996, and that's another story in itself, which I really don't want to get into in here. But in that time frame, I was still working at Olin. Now, I had started at Olin Corporation in 1972, and they closed in October of 1988, it was just a few months after our daughter was born. And the bad thing about that was the day I lost my full-time job at Olin, I also lost my part-time job as an aerobics instructor and fitness instructor with the Body Factory, and they were located in Whitehall at the time, so I had no income. Well, the only income I had was my reserve time, and that was once a month, so it wasn't very much. The interesting thing is that one of my aerobic students at that time had worked for the Morning Call, and she was one of two reporters, health reporters for the city. And Rose knew about my medical background, that I was a nurse, and all that so she said, "There's a position that's opened up at the -- in the city of Allentown at the health department that you might be good at." She's like, "And I don't know that you might -- " she says, "I know you're really good at it," so she gave me the information of who to go see in that. So I walked in, and at that time, the health department was located above the central firehouse on Chew Street between Seventh and Eighth, and they were on the second floor. So I went in, and I spoke to the clerk -- one of the clerks that was there because they had a whole bank of clerks for different departments there. And I said, "I was told that there's a position open in the city that I might be interested in, it was in HIV/AIDS," and they said, "Well, Ann isn't here at the time," -- she was the director, Ann Taylor, not the clothing designer, I know, -- "but she'll be back after lunch." I left, I came back, and I was just coming in to inquire and sat down with Ann and just that brief talk wound up being a three-hour interview, and I said, "I don't have a resume." I had a resume, but I had it for being a fitness instructor because I also had that, and that's really what I wanted to do, I wanted to continue being the aerobic instructor in that because you never -- look at me now, but anyway. So she said, "Well, [Linnie?] if you can get a resume to me by such and such a date, we can consider that." So I had to go home, and at that time, we didn't have the computers, we had the regular typewriters, and I had to go and make a resume, which I took back. And then she said, "Are you available to talk to another person here?" and I said, "Sure," so there was another two-hour discussion. Now, they had already hired one person for the department because they were just starting up their HIV counseling and testing. The health [inaudible] was counseling and testing with all the nurses that were there because they didn't have an HIV/AIDS department at that time. So they had another Hispanic woman, Linda, and they had another person in mind who was also a Hispanic man, and they really wanted somebody who can speak Spanish because of the population. Unfortunately, I don't speak any Spanish -- well I do, but they're all dirty words but that's neither here or there, but I knew how to draw blood. That was the thing that got me in was that I could do that and I had that medical background, so, and we were hired. At that time, we were hired as independent contractors for the city, and the city was union. So I got hired, and I guess about two years into the job, somebody in the union got word that all these people -- because a lot of the people that worked for the health department at that time were considered contract employees, most of them were, and that was a no-no. And the union said that "You either need to make these people employees or you need to get rid of them." And these are all grant-funded programs, and they're not about to lose all this grant money, so they hired us. They grandfathered most of the thing, but they didn't grandfather the time that we had there, so I lost two years of that, so I was a city employee. And prior to that, I knew what was going on with -- I knew that -- I knew about HIV and AIDS, but I didn't know a whole lot of what was going on because we really hadn't started testing yet in the military. And one of the things that really helped me and my coworker Linda is that they actually sent us down to the CDC in Atlanta, Georgia, for our formal training of how to do that -- how to do testing -- counseling and testing, which was excellent. I'm working and I'm doing counseling and testing but not really knowing a whole lot, still learning more about this transmission and all that good stuff because now we can test. So really what I'd like to do before I get further is to go back and give a little history about HIV in the area. And I do apologize, I have this written down, and I really want to get it right, so bear with me if [inaudible] here, so... Let me take you back to the start of HIV/AIDS, and this may help paint a better picture of what was happening in Allentown back in the day. On June 5th of 1981, the CDC, Center for Disease Control in Atlanta, Georgia, reported a few cases of a rare disease in young, gay men and intravenous drugs users. The symptoms such as Kaposi's sarcoma and Pneumocystis pneumonia, they're generally usually seen in older individuals. The pneumonia is typically seen in patients who were static from surgery, so they have to be flat and not moved, and that they would develop this Pneumocystis pneumonia, which is in the lungs. And then the other form with the Kaposi, it' a form of cancer that is usually seen in elderly, Mediterranean men, now -- and that can be internal or external. What happens is it leaves these -- looks like black and blue marks on the body like the person was beat-up, and those black and blue marks can be either internal or external. No one knew how or where it started ; we just knew it was beginning to spread. Everyone was scared, hospitals were starting to see more and more young men with these conditions. There was no definite treatment or medications available. Doctors were not even certain how it was being transmitted, so a lot of quarantine procedures were set into place. Some hospitals were using full-body suits to go into patients' rooms. A protocol of no physical contact with patients was placed -- put into place and -- with big signs on the doors. Food trays and even bed linens and gowns were placed just outside the doors, and the patients, if they were able, had to fend for themselves if they were not bedridden, and a lot of times, the patients were dying, and they were dying alone. No one wanted to go near those people. The first few years of HIV were the worst for everyone. There wasn't a name for it at this time for this condition, as yet a blood test had not been devised, and they were starting to call it HTLV-III, later that was renamed GRID, gay-related infectious disease. And at the time, the gay people were starting to be discriminated against even more. We were the carriers and the cause of this disease. It was God's wrath because we were all bad people, and we deserved what God had placed upon us, all gays and all drug users deserved to die. Organizations were starting to spring up in response to the AIDS crisis, ACT UP, which was the AIDS Coalition to Unleash Power, and the GMHC, Gay Men's Health Crisis Center, and they were located primarily in New York. And they were all working to help find out more about this condition and to help those infected -- and affect -- infected men affected by HIV/AIDS. Because of these organizations and their push to find out more about what was happening to this -- to their community, we now had a test to determine what we were fighting -- a virus, specifically HIV, human immunodeficiency virus. We had our first medication, AZT, we know definitely how this virus is and is not transmitted, and yet, people were still getting infected, people were still dying, and now the virus had crept into the mainstream heterosexual population. Straight women, straight men, and babies were getting infected. We were seeing more progress -- some progress, but we still did not have enough. Our friends were dying, and there was no one there to intervene for them. So fast-forward to 19 -- the years 1985, '86 in Allentown, Pennsylvania. A group of concerned citizens mostly from the Stonewall Bar, Candida's Bar, and Jeff's City Line Pub, and the patrons who supported these establishments, these people live and work in Lehigh Valley formed what is known as FACT, Fighting AIDS Continuously Together. They held an event called The FACT Bar Games, which was held in the gay resort in the Poconos at Rainbow Mountain. That was the summer of 1986. This was all due to the AIDS crisis in the Lehigh Valley. I had heard about FACT, but I really didn't know or participate in any of their fundraising events. So I knew about them, but I didn't participate because I wasn't out-out with that part, but I had friends. And back then, you had a group of friends that you had dinner with, you partied with, you went here and there. Occasionally, you'd go to the bar, but if you were single and didn't have anybody, that's who you leave when you went to the bar, that's when you had the bar scene but... So I knew about it, and now we were testing in the military, and it scared the hell out of me because the first time I got tested, because I was very promiscuous, very promiscuous. To this day, I still don't know how I dodged the bullet, so to speak. I was tested last year just for the sake of getting tested even though I haven't been active in quite a few years. But I know I needed to get more involved, so... There were people that were coming in to the health department for testing who knew about FACT, and they had said that maybe I should go to a meeting or something, an event or I should go to an event, that's what it was. Eighty-six, I think it was the fourth or fifth Summer Games that was up at Rainbow Mountain, so I was invited to come up and have a table -- a display table from the health department and promote it. A lot of gay men didn't want to go to the health department because we were looked at as the health police, still are. It's gotten better, but I think one of the things that helped is that they had a gay man working in the health department doing this that they could trust. And I think that really helped at least get to where that we, hey, there's somebody there that you can go to, you could ask for, and you could feel comfortable with. So I decided that we need to do testing up at the Summer games. It's a safe place, everybody's -- there is an LGBT part of the community, and what a better place to do this, so I started doing testing up there. The games always started at noon and always ended at 6:00, and that first year that I had tested, I was still testing at ten o'clock at night, and back then, it still took two weeks for test results. Now we're up in Rainbow Mountain, up in Carbon County or Monroe County, I'm not sure where -- yeah, Monroe County but you had to come back to Allentown to get your test results, so, which is what they did. We tested up there and like the following week I said, "If we're going to do this, I need help." I said, "We need more than just me doing the counseling and testing," and I said, "We really need to have somebody that's just going to be able to draw blood," so that's what we did. So we started just having a phlebotomist full time with us even though we could all draw blood, which just makes it so much easier when you have that amount of people that you can just keep testing and educating and doing that stuff. So I think it was about 1992, I went to -- I was asked to come to a board meeting, which is what I did, and that time they were meeting at -- in one of the meeting rooms at what was then the Hilton at Ninth and Hamilton, and they had probably 25 people on their board at that time. We're down to 13 now at present. So they asked me if I wanted to join the board, and I said, "Sure, why not?" By now, I have lost some people and -- but my first -- first person I had lost even before I got into -- with the city, I was still working at Olin, and a good friend of mine, his name was Chuck, would always go to Atlantic City for the summer. My late husband and I were walking into the Rendezvous bar down in Atlantic City, and Chuck was coming out of the bar, and this is in the daytime around noon or so. And he had all these black and blue marks all over him, and I said look, I said, "Wow," I said, "you get into a fight?" He said, "No," he says, "they're -- it's called Kaposi's, and the doctor thinks that I need to be more in the sun" and then like two months later, he was dead. And I think this is really, really what got me more into the activism part was the Lark Inn, which was one of the big bars in Atlantic City, they knew Chuck, and they did a fundraiser for him to help pay for funeral and all that good stuff. I think this is something that I can get behind and that I -- not that I can get behind, that I need to get behind. So that's probably the first part of my activism, which is small steps. So I joined the FACT board, and they were still not sure if I was gay or straight because I didn't say I was gay or straight, they knew I was married and had a daughter. And it happened to be at one of the Summer games that we were up at -- and we were all having dinner together, and I started talking about my partner Will. And they just tilt their head like, "Well," -- [coughs] -- excuse me, "what -- what's the story here, are you gay, are you straight, are you bi?" I said, "Well, I've been all three," but I said, "but I'm gay, I'm gay," and I said, "the person that I'm with is the person that I'm with," which is Will. My wife and I got divorced in 1996, and like I said, that's another story maybe for another time, but... So then he started coming to events with me and he -- we would decorate, and he was part of the -- excuse me [coughs] -- part of the decorating crew. And they called him Balloon Man because he had the helium tank, and he had all the balloons, and he would just whip these all out and get balloons all over the place. So I joined the board, and then one of the members of the board had passed away from AIDS, and he was the education chair, that was, that was Tom. And I said, "Hey, if you need a new education chair, here I am." I said, "It's what I do, it's one of the jobs that I do in my job description." So I've been doing all of the education for FACT since 1992. Of course, I'm still on the board, and they would not let me go. And then we had a former president -- a former board member, and she passed away -- not from AIDS, but she had passed away. She was the treasurer of the organization which she was also what was called a contingency chairperson. And the contingency chairperson is the one that does all of the funding for clients, and I'll explain that a little more down the road here. So I said, "Let me do that." MF: Hi, I'm Mary, I'm back with David Moyer. We just took a quick break, and David was telling us a little bit about his work with FACT on the -- directly the educational mission for that organization. And I'm going to turn it back over to him to talk a little bit about FACT's organizational structure and his work with that. DM: Yeah, oh, thank you. Well, FACT, like I said, started -- was really started in 1986 -- '85--'86 with our -- for the LGBT community because nothing was being done for their friends that were passing from AIDS. So their first events -- first event was this game up in -- a bar game up in -- at Rainbow Mountain in the Poconos. And at that time, we had a lot of bars, so we had the Stonewall Bar, we had Candida's, we had Jeff's City Line Pub, we had the Red Star from Reading, we had the Glass Door, we had Blue Bugle up in the Stroudsburg area. So they would all compete for a trophy but also to raise money. I think it was like $15, which is still a steal today. We have not raised our prices since 1986 for the Summer games itself. It's a good event because you do -- you have vendors, all different kinds of vendors, you have organizations, the other AIDS organizations at that time. And we had plenty of them back in the day who would bring in their literature and things that they would sell like T-shirts or ads or things like that as did FACT, we had our own. We would sell these shirts like I'm wearing, we have hats, we have keychains, we have all kinds of stuff. And one year, AIDS Outreach, which is no more, they sold tree saplings, and you could plant the trees, so there's a lot of trees that are planted up at Rainbow Mountain that are still there, and you dedicated them in somebody that you knew that had passed from AIDS. So there's trees planted there, there's trees planted up at my house, I have two there, and at some of the gay campgrounds, Camp Oneida, which is up near the border of Pennsylvania and New York State, I have trees planted there, there's trees planted at Hillside. I don't think there's planted any at The Woods Campground because this -- that was way too early for that. So there's different committees in the organization. We have structure, we have a president, we have a vice president, we have a secretary, we have a treasurer, those are the four main. At present time, we have two co-chairs for the vice chair and then we have, like I said, the others there. Personally, I have been president twice, I've been vice president twice, I have been secretary three times now because I'm now the current secretary besides being the -- contingency and education chairperson. I've never been treasurer and I'm -- never will be because I can't balance my own checkbook, but anyway, that's neither here nor there. But FACT itself, we became incorporated as a 501[c][3] nonprofit. We are the only agency still alive today that receives no city, state, or federal funding. All the monies that we raise are raised through grassroots efforts, and that can be through -- back in the day, we did house parties. Like I would have a house party at my house, and maybe it was the start for that night of the house parties. Maybe we would just do hors d'oeuvres and you'd go from there to maybe your house where you would have drinks and then go somewhere else for -- or you do the whole thing. You had the option of saying, okay, I'm going to charge $5, $10, $25, $50, or you just put a big fishbowl out and put in what you can, and then all that money comes back to FACT. That was one way of doing it. And then there's bingos that we have ; we continue to do bingos, we have wise -- wine tasting events, we still have the Summer games. There may be things during the year like Pride. We would rent a bus to go up to Pride in New York, and you could do whatever you want. We also have that in December for pre-Christmas. You can go out in December and holiday shop or go to a show or do whatever you want to do. We had one board member who was very creative in writing murder mysteries, and they were interactive murder mysteries, really, really good, Bruce Brown. And Bruce still does radio shows here in -- at the Red Door from Muhlenberg College, and he's done several of those. The highlight of our year is our Snowball, and that's always in -- around World AIDS Day. We had not raised the price on that either in years, but we're looking at that now maybe upping some things. Membership, we've [inaudible] our membership. There's different levels of membership that you can get there as well. And like I said, the education component, we always have that at an event. Whether we're doing bingo for Pride, we always have an information table along with condoms and dental dams and lubrication and all that good stuff that -- for safe sex. We're still promoting safe sex. Even this day and age, we still need to do that. One of things that I had incorporated in was being that I work for the health department, I was able to go more places, and one of the big educational components for me was in the prison. And we were in the prison every Thursday to do education on a different unit because they had 12 different units in the local prison here, and then we would get people to sign up for testing, then we would go in on a Friday with our crew and just do testing. And then if we had tested the week before, then one of us would just go to the unit and do the test results in the unit. Unless there was a positive, then we had to bring that person down and do that in the medical department area because everybody will be warned about this is going to happen in case the person freaked out or whatever, and so, and luckily, that never happened. And then one of the big things in the last couple of years, of course the last couple of years because of COVID, we were able to do this, is that two of the State Reps Pete Schweyer and -- oh, my goodness, his name just went out of my head -- Mike Schlossberg, they hold a senior fest over in the east side of Allentown, and they've invited us -- FACT to be there for education because just because you're old doesn't mean you're not frisky. [laughs] So we have condoms available there too, and it's amazing the amount of people that stop. But one of the things that we did also to entice people to come in at our table is we do blood pressures so we -- because we can't do testing there. But we do blood pressures, so we can do that, and we can talk to the person. And even if they're not active, if they have grandchildren, we say, "Here, take a party pack for your grandson or granddaughter or whatever." And then I've also done several programs for -- at the Bradbury-Sullivan Center for their Silk group, their teens. And I've also done programs at William Allen High School and Dieruff. In fact, I was doing educational programs outside of Lehigh County when I was with the city and then that had to stop because we're encroaching in somebody else's territory, unless we get permission from the county to come in and do that, so... So the education is -- still is ongoing. I have a good friend Hollis who is part of the NAACP here in Lehigh Valley, and we did a very big program for their group. So where we're needed, we go. Probably around 1992, '93, we -- not us but a FACT Bucks County chapter was formed, and they're in New Hope, located in New Hope. So they're our sister chapter, they're still going strong, and sometimes we do events together, but most of the part, they do their thing, and we do our thing. Another thing that's -- that -- and I need to say this, is that even though we support -- FACT supports the LGBT community, we are not recognized as an LGBT organization because we have both straight and gay people on our board, and that's important for people to know. I mean the majority of us are gay but -- well, because we don't know. One of the things too is that especially with the contingencies, which I'll start talking about now, is that the -- what the contingency request is case managers at Lehigh Valley Hospital in St. Luke's, they both have an HIV/AIDS department, and they have case managers in those departments, and they have clients -- obviously, they have clients. So FACT was designed to help people who are infect-- that were infected by HIV/AIDS. [We do not know who we are helping. All we know is that the person is either infected or affected by HIV/AIDS. So you can be straight, you can be gay, you can be asexual, you can be black, white, male, female, doesn't matter who you are, if you need help and we can help, we do. Now early on in the disease, we had a lot of different categories that we were -- would fund. And in fact, we had a lot of money early on that we were able to help support the -- not necessarily the hospitals, but the other AIDS organizations with grants so that they could expand their organization. But with the way things have been occurring, we don't do that anymore. But we would help with rental, insurance, mortgage, drugs and medications are drugs and medications covered by the special pharmaceuticals benefits program that the state puts out, household items like maybe in the summer you need an air conditioner, and we always had a supply of air conditioners handy at the office they'd just take one, heating. And that's changed now because we have the LIHEAP program, which is energy conservation for people with low income or no income. Auto repair, some forms of transportation like for a person to get from -- they have bus passes to get from their home to an employment because they didn't have a car, and then the big one was the funeral expense, and we have all of those categories for years. And we're in the process of changing -- well, we've changed a lot of those. There's a lot of those that we don't fund anymore because we don't need to. And now when COVID hit, nothing was being funded per se, nothing was being funded. The only thing that we were funding were funerals. And when we look at what's happened over the last two years plus, there isn't a need for any of those other categories anymore other than the funeral expense. So that's the only thing that we're going to be funding are funerals, and we'll be upping the amount because each category had their amount. You could apply to FACT twice in one calendar year and then you could come back the following year if you needed something, and we could do that again. The clients really are encouraged to find ways of being able to support themselves because we're -- we really are considered the funders of last resort. They'd go, the hospital would do some things because they have special funding for their clients whether it's for HIV or AIDS or it could be a whole bunch of other things, but they have those. Or they can go to AIDSNET, and AIDSNET serves a six-county area. They do Lehigh, Northampton, Carbon, Monroe, Schuylkill and Berks County, and they'll fund some things too that the hospitals won't be able to fund, and if they can't fund them, then they come to FACT. But none of those organizations will -- are able to fund funerals and so we're -- that's where we're going to be at right now is funerals. And I know that we're in the beginning of 2022, and we've already had four funerals this year that we're funding. So that's pretty much where FACT is. We're the only organization left. We had tons of organizations in the area, which were needed at the time, and now with how the face of AIDS has changed, they really weren't -- aren't needed anymore. The one major one that I really was involved with was AIDS Outreach, and they were the first organization to do -- and they were the first religious organization to do anything and that was -- they -- that stemmed out of the Episcopal church. And they started down in Easton before they moved to Allentown, and they had what was called the Buddy program. The Buddy program was you were trained -- you would come in, and you were trained. You had -- it was like a two- to three-week course, usually on the weekend, and you learned different aspects of HIV/AIDS and care, and that was one of the things that I did. I did the education part for their clients. Once they finished and were graduated, then you would be assigned to somebody that was diagnosed with HIV or AIDS. You stayed with that person -- not physically stayed with that person but you stayed with that person until they died. You would take them to appointments, you would -- if you had to feed them, bathe them, whatever you had to do, that's what you did for that patient. Once that patient died, you couldn't do anything for a year. You needed to have that year off to regroup yourself and then you can come back if you wanted to. And they were located then out of -- when they moved from Trinity Episcopal Church in Easton, they moved to Grace Episcopal Church which is my home church here. And they were there until 2000 and--either 7 or 8 is when they closed, so, yeah, they closed. Gilead House, which was on the state hospital grounds of Allentown, they just had gotten started and then they closed down. Berks AIDS Network, which is called BAN, they're out of Reading, they've changed their whole dynamics and I think they're doing just more than just HIV/AIDS. We used to have a Latino AIDS outreach, which we don't have anymore. They were located -- they started in Bethlehem, they moved to Allentown. We still have HAO, Hispanic AIDS Organization. I think they're located down where the old -- where the original Lehigh Valley Chamber of Commerce, it's at Fifth and Walnut. I'm trying to think if we have any other organizations. There is still a couple, but we had back -- back in the day, we had the AIDS Task Force, and we had about 30 different organizations that were part of that, a lot of church, the hospitals. [Rick Hoss?] was part of that, the blood banks were part of that. There were so many organizations back in the day, which were needed. And then you had the upspring of the AIDS organizations here, the -- not the AIDS organizations, the LGBT organizations. Le-Hi-Ho, Lambda, and finally with the Bradbury-Sullivan Center, which has done a lot of great stuff for the area here of -- they've helped me a lot especially with the loss of my husband. Then we just keep going. One of the things that I do in my presentations is I always end my talks with one of my favorite movies is, and one of the first Hollywood big movies was called Longtime Companion, and it takes place in New York and primarily like in Fire Island, in that area. And the main character, his name is Willy, and there was a whole group of his friends that always would get together and like people still do. But he was the only one left, all his friends had died, and he's walking on the beach in Fire Island, and the last line of the movie is, "All I want is a cure and my friends back," and that's how I feel. I hate this disease. I'm sorry, but [sighs] it's tough. Back in the day, you had to know somebody or know where things were if you were to go and meet somebody or hook up. We don't have that now. We have -- maybe I shouldn't say we don't have that now, we don't. I'd say that we need it now, but we have the internet. The internet has changed everything for everybody, not just the gay community, but for everybody. You'd go to the bar and hopefully you meet somebody and maybe get lucky and go home. Now you can sit in the comfort of your living room in your pajamas or underwear or naked and cruise somebody on a website and have cybersex, which is safe, but it's not fun. [laughter] We had in the day -- this was our internet, I wanted to show this. It's called The Damron Book, address book. If you were gay and in the know and you were a traveler, that this is what you wanted because if you were going to go to... I'm just going to pick out one in here -- Massachusetts, and I was going to go to um, uh -- where we could go here, oh jeez -- Brockton, Massachusetts, there's an area that says cruisy areas, so this is where you can go, and that's where you would look at. Or you go to Chelsea, Massachusetts, there was only one bar John's, and it was mixed, but it was mostly men, some women, and there's a code. So you could tell if you -- let me see if I can get in here. There's a key code, if you were looking for alcohol, beer, and wine, if there was a B in there, it was multiracial clientele ; if you were into leather, there would be an L there for leather ; N, nudity because there are some bars that you could be nude in, I know that for a fact, it's down in New Orleans, SW had a swimming pool, okay, yeah. So let's see or YC, young and college type. You could know where to go and what you're going to be looking for. And I always had mine with me because I travel a lot. Especially in the military, it's something that I had to hide, I really had to keep that hidden because if that would've come out, I would've been out. But then we get to a point where I would go to -- my unit would go a lot to Gulfport, Mississippi. There's a base down in Gulfport, and it's only like 70 miles from New Orleans. And fortunately, I had a friend who lived in Quakertown, and he had moved to New Orleans. His daughter was there, she opened up a -- her version of the Christmas trees store, and so was all Christmas, right, just a bunch, she was also a lesbian. And he was very creative, so he would make stuff for her to sell in the store. When I knew that my unit was going to be going down there, I would contact him and say, "Pete, I'm going to be in the area, do you got room for me?" So he says, "Yeah, yeah, just let me know when you get here and then -- so he would take me to all the places that I didn't have to -- I didn't need the book because he had it firsthand in that. But there were some wild bars down there that's -- I was very bad and very, very bad. It's just changed, and I don't know how the younger crowd is really coping with that. This is something that we lived through and had to find our way through because we didn't have the stuff that we have now. And I don't know if that's -- for me, I don't think that's fun, you need to be out there and experience. So for the future of the LGBT community, I have no idea what it's going to look like in 10 years. I mean we thrived here in the Lehigh Valley, we had all these bars, we had -- the cruising place is still there, but you would have to be careful there because of the police now. It wasn't like it was back in our days. We would drive around and around, and I'd mentioned this before with my friend Tommy and Eddie, we would drive around for hours just cruising, yeah, not necessarily picking anybody up, but you can do that. You can't do that because you see the signs, no, no cruising 7:00 to 10:00 pm. on this street or no cruising 6:00 to 9:00 p.m. on this street. DM: So I don't know where it's going, I really don't. I know that for ME as a gay man, I have lived through a lot. I've done a lot, there's still more for me to do. I said when I get into this line of work with HIV that I will never stop, I won't -- going as long as I can. I don't want to let my friends down because I promised them that I would do this. I have two diseases that I'm very passionate about, HIV and AIDS and ALS, Lou Gehrig's disease. My husband died from Lou Gehrig's disease seven and a half years ago, another horrible disease. Those are really the only two organizations that I helped and I'm staying with. And it's hard to get the younger generation involved in any of those type of work or even an interest. I do have to commend, and I can't remember her last name was. Her name is Rachel, she does a lot for -- she's a teacher at Allen High School and she's the one that runs the GSL groups. And probably about five years ago, we had -- the Bradbury-Sullivan Center had the -- a portion of AIDS quilt on display down there, and she asked me to come in and speak to the kids about my life as a gay man and work in HIV and that. And I think the thing that grabbed them, the kids -- I mean they were interested in the quilt, but there were people on that quilt that I knew and I think that was really meaningful for -- to them, and it really kept their attention. One story that I really do want to give to you is my first experience with the quilt, and it was here at Muhlenberg College, and that was, I'm going to say '95 or '96 when it was here. I'm not exactly sure, I think it was '95 or '96. We had all the organization that were still going were involved with that, and there was a training on how to display the quilt because there's a whole ceremony. If you haven't seen it, Google it because it's something that is really it's intense. And we had it at the -- it was the Field House here on the campus. We were in the small palestra and they had these huge boxes, there must have been 30 of these boxes if not more with the quilt panels. They come and they're folded, so they're telling us, "This is what you need to do. Once you have the panel, to fold the panel down it takes eight people to do it, a section." So they said, "Go over and get one out of the box," so we go over and get one out and put it down. And we each have our space where we're at, and we're opening it and it's -- you do it very slowly. It's like working with the American flag, you -- it's -- you do it, that's how you do it. And I had the last corner of the one that I have, opened it up, and looked at the name. His name was Steve [Kalisky?]. He was the one who was responsible for me meeting my husband... I lost it. And what were the chances of that, me getting that panel? It was meant to happen. I just -- I lost it, I said -- I still get... And I brought Will out that night, so he could be with me when it was opened, and that -- [sighs] I don't know where to go from here. MF: You're describing a lot of moving events that occurred in our community, the bringing the quilt here to the Lehigh Valley. You've also talked about the Snowball, you talked about the Summer games, and you've talked about the public health piece of your work both with the Allentown Health Bureau and also with FACT. DM: Mm-hmm. MF: I'm wondering about FACT's relationship to other AIDS organizations?. Because you're working in two different fields, you're also part of the Buddy -- the Buddy program, but there was a program out of the Lambda center that I think became AIDS Services. But how are all of those organizations working together or were they not? DM: No, they were, -- MF: working together? DM: -- they were. And I say this at conferences that I've gone to. Me personally, I have been so blessed and honored to work with the amount of organizations that we have in the Lehigh Valley. They all work together, they always have, they always will. When one fails, it's like a failure for all of us whether that failure is good or bad. It's good that we don't need the Buddy program anymore for as much I loved it, we don't, I mean the people are living a lot longer. Yes, people are still dying, but they don't need that, that extra kick or whatever it is. And the thing that really, really impresses me, we have two major hospitals here in the Lehigh Valley. We have St. Luke's and we have Lehigh Valley, and they're always at odds with each other, they are. Well, let's build a bigger one here, let's build -- let's put two together here. The AIDS organizations or AIDS department in each of those two hospitals are like this. You don't see that, you don't see that in Philadelphia, you don't see that in New York, you don't see that anywhere. You see it here, and that's -- that impresses me, and that is something that I tell people. We are all in this together, we are, and if you can't work together, it's not going to work. You're setting yourself up for failure really is what it is, so... I have another story that's not really AIDS related, but it's about my husband, about my late husband. And I guess his and my coming out -- we were together for, I'm going to say, seven or eight years, at least seven or eight years if not more. And one of the goods things is that his whole family is just great, absolutely great. But his mother and his older sister -- because his younger sister was living in Florida for like 25 years, and she's back here now -- but they would go to a lot of the events. One of the events that I didn't mention was called Summer Solstice, and we always did it around the twenty-first of June, and we always had it at a private home somewhere. Our former vice president who just passed away several months ago, Carl he had it -- he hosted it at his place and he had the entire meal up in -- off of 512 for a couple of years. But there was a prominent New York doctor who had a place down in Coopersburg, Center Valley, a private area, jeez, and huge pond and -- but a huge house in this. But we had it down there and we took his sister and his mother along down there. His mother was always the center of attraction, a little woman, crazy for her, loved her. And so we're getting pretty lit, and we're coming home, and we got back to the house, opened up some more champagne and or whatever, we're still drinking. And Will decided he was going to go to bed, so he went to bed, so it was just the three of us, me, Fern, and Vicky. And somehow, it came up about me or Will not being married yet. And Vicky looks at his -- at her mother, she says, "Think, Mom, they're gay." And she said, "What do you mean gay?" "They're gay, they've been together -- living together for almost 10 years now," and she said, "Oh, my son's gay." [laughs] Now, neither one of them were able to drive home because they wanted to go home, called the cab, and Vicky says to me the next day, "Oh my God, I can't believe Fern, I can't believe her" -- because she called her Fern -- "all she kept saying to the cab driver is, 'My son's gay, my son's gay.'" [laughs] and she said, "Everybody knows." Well, she didn't know, and Dad didn't know either. He may have suspected, but he never said anything, and he's one of these... But we always got along, nothing was ever said about -- you know. They were at my wedding when I get married to Betsy. I mean nothing was said that -- to Dad that well, you know, your son's gay or whatever, and we still didn't say it because we never -- when we would be together for dinners or parties or something at their house because it was always -- we either met at their place or we met at our place, depending on what the holiday was because we would always do Mother's Day and Father's Day for his parents, Christmas and Thanksgiving was always at their place but anyway. I don't know where I'm going with this ; there was something else I was going to say about that. Oh, gosh, what was it? Oh, when Will passed, and that was September of 2014, and we did everything at the church. His dad was there, he didn't go to the cemetery, but he was there for the viewing, he was there for the funeral mass and that. And they were taking everything out to the hearse, and they said he didn't want to go to the cemetery, but I get up and I stood in front of him, and I said, "You know I loved your son," and he said, "I know," and that's where we left it. So now we can talk, we talk up -- if we're together, but this one's gay or that one's gay or whatever. My great-niece's best friend is gay, still in high school yet. Everything is good, everything is good. Now I couldn't have asked for a better family than his, all of them, all of them. There wasn't anybody in his family that looked down on us because we were gay, every one of them. When Will and I were going to have a commitment ceremony at our church because it still wasn't legal in Pennsylvania. It came a couple of months later, but we had been married in California, but we wanted to do something at our church. I had not been out to -- my only two relatives, really relatives that are alive and my -- were alive on my side were my aunt and uncle, my mother's brother, and I called them up -- no, I asked them to come over for dinner. So they came for dinner, and I said, "I -- we have something that we want to tell you, and we want to ask you and you can either say yes or no," and I said, "Will and I when we were in California, we were -- we got married, and we want to have a commitment ceremony at our church, would you come?" They knew, we never discussed anything but we -- they knew, and they were so grateful that we included them in because that's -- they were the only relatives on my side. When they died -- I'm the last on my side, when I die, blood line ends. My daughter doesn't count, I shouldn't say it that way, but she doesn't count, she's not a boy so she can't carry on my name. Indirectly she could but it's all messed up, so... But, yeah, I wanted to get that in there, so... I have been very blessed to have the support that I've had over these years. My faith community is by far the best. I have two parishioners who are originally from -- well, [Haley?] has risen from here, but her husband is Filipino, but they lived in California for years and they -- because he has -- he still has family out there, so they go out occasionally. And when Will died, passed away, somebody let them know that he had died, and they called me immediately, and they canceled the rest of their trip and came home just to help support me. Who does that? You hear so many horror stories in the LGBT community, getting kicked out or being spit on or being assaulted or being murdered, I feel -- there's times where I feel guilty because I haven't had any of that. I mean I've had some looks and some comments but few and far between, not by anybody in my immediate circle. Even some of the guys in my military unit knew I was gay. You do your job, and that's what I'm there for, I do my job, what I do on my own time is my own time. Yeah, I would go out and party with them, and I would go to the strip clubs, and I'd get up on this stage with the girls and do all kinds of things, not sexual but have a good time. I think they really appreciated that, that I'm not the typical faggot for lack of better words. I am who I am ; I can have a good time with anybody. I just don't know. I pray that the next generation, upcoming generation, is going to be okay and not have a lot of negativity or stuff because there's just way too much of that now. You didn't see that back in the days. You didn't see drag queens getting killed or transgender people getting mugged or killed or -- it's just it's like an epidemic. That shooting down at the Pulse nightclub in Florida that -- a couple of years ago, you don't see that. And I think that's another good thing about the area here, maybe we're just special. There was very little trouble in any of the gay bars here or even at the events. Early on in the Pride festivals that we had at Cedar Beach and that we would have protestors, not a lot, but there'd be some there, but it was peaceful, peaceful yeah. Nobody was flaunting anything, well some of the drag queens were, but that's a given. So I don't know if we're just fortunate to be where we are and have what we have, I don't know. MF: So, David we're right up almost at the end of our 90 minutes, and before we close the interview, I just want to give you some space. Is there anything we didn't talk about today that you really wish we would have and that you'd like to share now? DM: Ohm, I think we've covered... I mean I could've talked a bit more about my sexual experiences, but I don't know. [laughs] That's for the book. I'm grateful to you for wanting to do this. I'm open, I try to be as open as I can. I think we covered -- I really wanted to get in there about my husband and my marriage, which never should've happened, but it did. That soured me for a few years because it wasn't -- it wasn't me that wanted to end the divorce, it was me that ended the divorce, but it wasn't me that was at fault. There's little tidbits here and there of things that I may have missed that are okay, but I think for the most part, that I've answered what you were or gave you whatever you were looking for. If there's anything that I think of, I'll let you know, but at this point I think we're good. Just use what I gave you to include, yeah, paper-wise, and if there's anything else that you need from me, just let me know, and if I can find it, I will gladly help out any way I can because this -- this is just so important. I mean I don't know how many others like this are going on in the country. Hopefully, there's more because we can't be swept under the carpet. We're here, we're queer, get over it, I'm ending there. MF: What a wonderful way to end. Thank you so much, David, for speaking with me today. I'm so grateful to hear your life story. I'm really, really moved by what you shared today. Thank you. DM: You're welcome, you're welcome. Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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David Moyer Part 2, February 11, 2022
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David Moyer details his marriage, work in HIV/AIDS healthcare and activism with Fighting AIDS Continuously Together (FACT), and personal relationships.
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LGBT-24
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2022-02-11
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Stories of Lehigh Valley LGBTQ+ Community Members (2022 - )
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Laura Mercedes
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Felix Molina
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5.4 February 22, 2022 Felix Molina, February 22, 2022 LGBT-26 45:17 LVLGBT Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive Collection Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository Support for the collection of this interview was provided by the American Council of Learned Societies (ACLS). trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Felix Molina Laura Mercedes video/mp4 MolinaFelix_20220222_video.mp4 1.0:|17(8)|48(6)|71(9)|96(3)|119(2)|140(4)|159(7)|184(10)|205(12)|226(9)|245(8)|264(12)|287(13)|308(10)|329(5)|354(18)|377(2)|396(5)|417(4)|440(3)|459(15)|478(2)|501(2)|520(10)|539(14)|560(12)|575(15)|594(7)|609(7)|628(4)|643(15)|662(13)|675(6)|698(8)|715(11)|740(4)|753(3)|770(11)|789(7)|810(3)|829(16)|848(8)|873(18)|892(5)|913(2)|918(5) 0 https://youtu.be/ig296ba1Ojw YouTube video Spanish 18 Interview Introductions LAURA MERCEDES: My name is Laura Mercedes, and I am here with Felix Molina to talk about his life and experiences in LGBT organizations in the Lehigh Valley as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT community oral history project. Our project has funding from the American Council of Learned Societies, and we are meeting on Zoom on February 22nd, 2022. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today, Felix. To start, can you please state your full name and spell it for me? Félix, gracias por estar aquí hoy. Para comenzar, por favor ¿puede decirme su nombre, apellido y deletrearlos?
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 ; FELIX MOLINA: Okey, mi nombre es Félix Molina. Mi nombre es F-E-L-I-X, Molina, M-O-L-I-N-A. 0 136 Early Years of Life LM: Muy bien. Pues, para comenzar, ¿me puede contar sobre los primeros años de su vida y describir su niñez?
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 ; FM: Bueno, yo nací en Río Piedras, que ahora pertenece a San Juan, aquí en Puerto Rico. Tuve una niñez muy feliz. Desde pequeñito, sabía que era gay. Como a los 10 años, 10 a 12 años, trataron de sobornarme ; me dijeron que tenía que pagar dinero, si no, le iban a decir a mi familia que yo era gay. Yo dije, “Pues no, yo no voy a pagar nada, así que yo se lo diré a mi familia.” Me senté con mi familia — nosotros siempre comíamos todos juntos — y les dije, “Bueno, quiero decirles algo: yo soy gay. Si me aceptan, bien, y si no, pues seguiré, pero yo no voy a cambiar mi vida por nadie. Éste soy yo, así que está bien.” Mis papás me dijeron, “Eres nuestro hijo, comoquiera te queremos.” Mi hermano me dijo que ya lo sabía. Quedamos así más o menos. 0 284 Representing Puerto Rico & ; Speaking at the NYC Pride Parade / Moving to the United States FM: Le invitan a ella y a mí a representar a Puerto Rico en la parada gay de Nueva York. Mi primo estaba enfermo con SIDA en ese tiempo y yo fui entonces para allá para verlo a él y participar de la parada. Y me pusieron en el station, me dieron el micrófono para que hablara. Y dije, “Bueno, parece mentira de que yo tuve que venir de Puerto Rico a visitar a mi primo, que él tiene tantos amigos aquí, y ninguno habéis ido a visitarle al hospital, teniendo tanto miedo por esta enfermedad que nos está afectando además a muchos de todos nosotros. Tenemos que dejar el miedo y venir y estar nuevamente juntos como hermanos que somos y hacernos procurar uno con el otro.” 0 399 Facing Puerto Rican Discrimination in the Lehigh Valley / Fighting Discrimination Laws in Allentown FM: Cuando llegué a Bethlehem, me di cuenta de que a los puertorriqueños los maltrataban. Definitivamente, discriminaban mucho por los acentos y por qué eras. Pero, más que todo, los mismos puertorriqueños discriminaban más a los puertorriqueños. Yo estaba en una tienda de espejuelos y había una -- yo estaba en la parte de atrás y vino una señora, “Ah, estas personas deben ponerles otro sitio de que estén esperando, que no pueden estar al lado de uno, que si esto y lo otro, que si me están haciendo -- yo estoy muy nerviosa aquí.” Y la gerente dijo, “¿Él la ha molestado en algo?” Y ella, “No, pero su presencia nada más me molesta, y esto y lo otro, que no voy a estar si no, pues que yo no vengo más aquí.” “Pues si no quiere venir, no venga, pero él está muy bien y lo vamos a atender a él.” Voy, se lo digo a mi amigo, y en vez de darme la razón, me dice, “Sabrá Dios si tú estabas gritando o con la voz tuya intimidaste. Está tu forma de ser, que esto y lo otro.” Pero la verdad es que nosotros mismos nos tiramos a nosotros mismos. Yo no dije nada, yo no estuve haciendo nada y hasta la misma gerente de la tienda lo vio. O sea que definitivamente no fue que yo estaba haciendo absolutamente nada malo. 0 696 Experiences as President of the Puerto Rican Parade FM: Y esta vez, sí, pasó por los miembros que estaban y fue un éxito. En ese tiempo estuve también como presidente de -- bueno, antes de ser presidente de la parada puertorriqueña, estaba como miembro. Y había mucho desorden después que se acababa la parada, porque había parada por la Hamilton, parábamos en la -- en aquel día, hacíamos una -- tocaban unas fiestas y unas cosas y esto y lo otro, y ya a las cuatro se paraba de cantazo y todo el mundo para su casa. Y estaban ya todo la gente con la ansia revuelta y lo que hacían era que empezaron entonces a revolucionar los carros y estar caminando y gritando porque querían más fiesta y todo. Y no se hacía más nada. Y tuvimos bastantes problemas porque decían que se iba a eliminar. Los antiguos miembros de la parada dijeron que como castigo a los puertorriqueños, iban a parar la parada un año. Y dije, “No. A los puertorriqueños no se les tienen que castigar. Y si se para por un año, va a ser más difícil para volver poder a hacerla nuevamente.” 0 1067 Working with the Pennsylvania Statewide Latino Coalition (PSLC) / Other Jobs FM: Durante estaba en eso, cambié a PSLC, Pennsylvania Statewide Latino Coalition. Y ahí tuvimos unos guardias de Pensilvania, de Filadelfia, atacaron a un latino y le apretaron tanto la medalla en el pecho que se la incrustaron dentro del pecho y lo mataron. Y cuando fuimos a ver -- eso fue en Shenandoah. La cosa era mucho más mala de lo que parecía. Estaba dentro la policía, la gente de la policía, el juez, el alcalde. Todos estaban incluidos dentro de esa trama en contra de los latinos. Y los White Supremacy estaban dentro. 
 ; 
 ; Cuando nosotros vamos, vamos en un grupo, esto y lo otro, estaban detrás de nosotros persiguiéndonos. Yo me eché a reír en una porque ellos se estaban escondiendo y tratando de mirar para dónde yo me había ido y yo había corrido por la parte de atrás y yo estaba ahora detrás de ellos. Yo les dije, “Hola.” Y cuando miraron y me vieron atrás, dieron un brinco. “Ah, ¿qué usted está haciendo aquí? Que usted no puede venir aquí sin pedir permiso.” Y yo digo, “Que yo sepa, esto es Estados Unidos y es un país libre, así que yo puedo venir.” Y el mismo representante, el council viene y me dice a mí lo mismo. Y da la casualidad que me lo dice frente al agente federal. El agente federal le dije, “Déjeme unas palabritas con usted, porque aquí no hay que pedir permiso para venir a su ciudad y esta no es su ciudad ; esto es ciudad de Estados Unidos y vamos a chequear.” 0 1248 Moving Back to Puerto Rico FM: De ahí, estuve un tiempo trabajando en diferentes casos de daños civiles a los latinos y también a los que no eran latinos, solamente eran prejuicios sencillamente porque eran pobres o porque eran gais. Y estuve bastante con una compañía de abogados. De ahí, me dije, “Okey, ya está bien de tantas cosas.” Me vine para -- mis padres estaban un poco más enfermos, ya mayores. Así dije, “Déjame irme para Puerto Rico a estar junto con ellos,” y decidí venirme para acá hace ya como 12 años que estoy acá. Estoy en Caguas. Estoy tranquilo. Estoy disfrutándome mis viejos, estoy junto aquí. Y extraño mucho todavía porque yo estaba metido -- yo, en un tiempo, estuve hasta en 10 organizaciones a la misma vez y trabajando en todas los diferentes cosas, y ahora no estoy haciendo nada. 0 1366 Relationship between the Latino Community and the LGBTQ Community in the Lehigh Valley / Being Latino LM: ¿Cómo usted vio la relación entre la comunidad latina y la comunidad LGBTQ aquí en Lehigh Valley cuando usted estaba aquí trabajando con estos dos aspectos, con estos dos --?
 ; 
 ; FM: Bueno. Yo la vi bien. No sé si era que a mí -- yo me di a respetar mucho. Yo en todos los sitios me hacía respetar y todo el mundo sabía que yo era gay. O sea, yo iba y puse la parada, puse que estaba la carroza gay, teníamos el día gay, que íbamos a la discoteca, que íbamos y salíamos y todas las cosas. Y la gente latina se ponían así, pero no se atrevían de frente a insultar o nada ; sencillamente aceptaban. Yo sabía que detrás a veces pasaba sus cositas, pero entonces cuando yo llegaba, todo se arreglaba, todo estaba tranquilo. Peaches and cream. No había ningún problema. Estaba todo bien y, no, los aceptamos, y están todos bien y seguimos lo más bien. 0 1598 Reacting to Discrimination LM: Si le puedo preguntar, ¿cómo usted manejó, manejaba, maneja ese discrimen? ¿Cómo lo maneja?
 ; 
 ; FM: Bueno, es que yo no me creo ni más, pero tampoco menos que nadie. Y yo hago que me respeten por lo que yo soy. Y yo sencillamente digo, “Tú tienes que valorarme por lo que -- conóceme y después me hablas. Y vamos a vernos y yo hago frente a lo que sea.” Como que me vean y, no es que me imponga, pero hago que me respeten. Tú puede ser que no me quieras o puede ser que no te interese que yo esté aquí, pero vas a tener que aceptarme. Como una canción vieja que decía que no importa cómo me veas, pero vas a tener que amarme. Pues, sí, haga lo que haga, vas a tener que amarme, porque yo no voy para ningún lado. Me vas a tener que aceptar de una forma o de otra. 0 1676 Lessons Learned from Father LM: Estoy yendo un poco para atrás. ¿Cómo usted llegó de hablar en la parada gay en Nueva York a tomar todos estos roles de liderazgo en la comunidad aquí?
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 ; FM: Yo creo que mi padre es bien hablador y es sumamente un líder como tal. Y él me enseñó mucho eso. Él era el Santa Claus de la ciudad. Como éramos cuatro hermanos, tenía una guagua y siempre montaba a todos los muchachos y les llevaba y nos llevaba a la bolera y pagaba con todo el mundo, nos llevaba a comer a todo el mundo. Si estábamos haciendo la feria de la ciudad, buscaba chavos para hacer la catedral. Y eso era todos los años. 0 1814 Getting the Anti-Discrimination Law Passed in Allentown LM: Quería preguntarle un poquito más sobre la ordenanza de antidiscriminación. ¿Puede dar un poco de detalle de qué diría usted que fue lo que logró que esa ordenanza se diera y cómo fue ese proceso?
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 ; FM: Si se hubiera mantenido el city council que estaba cuando se introdujo la primera vez, no hubiera pasado nada. Fue que la ciudad cambió ; la gente de la ciudad pidieron ese cambio. Y lo pidieron de una tal forma que también cambiaron a la gente que estaban en puestos dentro del city council, botaron a todos los que estaban en su forma retrógrada y pusieron entonces a unas personas mucho más avanzadas y pusieron directamente -- estaba Candida estaba dentro de la misma city council. Abiertamente una persona gay. 0 1940 What Can Still Be Done for the LGBTQ+ Community LM: Y pensando en ahora, ¿hay algo que usted sienta que hay que hacer?
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 ; FM: Bueno, creo que debe ser -- yo ahora mismo no estoy muy enterado si ya es una ley federal el no discrimen contra los gais, pero debe ser federal. Creo que todavía, lo tuvimos ahora mismo con Trump, los white supremacists siguen y están avanzados completamente. Y lo que más reivindican, lo que más quieren hacer ellos es dividir y conquistar. Y lo hacen con las minorías más que pueden y con lo que pueden hacer directamente. Y lo vemos que tenemos que aumentar la división de la iglesia y el estado. Sencillamente la iglesia, muchas iglesias, están creciendo por ahí fomentado la desunión, fomentando que esto es algo inmoral, que esto es algo directamente del Demonio y el Demonio va a eliminar a Estados Unidos y va a eliminar todas cosas porque no se están haciendo las cosas como tiene que ser. 0 2086 Being Gay in Puerto Rico LM: Pensando en Puerto Rico, ¿cómo fue para usted ser un niño de 10 años fuera del closet en Puerto Rico si puedo preguntarle para atrás un poquito?
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 ; FM: Como mismo te dije, como yo me hacía dar a respetar, yo fui el presidente de mi clase. Todo el mundo lo sabía. Yo era el presidente de la clase, yo fui el presidente de pequeño, estaba llamando a todos los sitios. Fui la primera persona que en un colegio católico de Caguas hice una huelga porque estaban no dejando entrar a unos de nuestros compañeros porque fueron a darle una serenata a unas muchachas en retiro y ellos la pusieron -- entonces, después de que lo que faltaba era un mes para acabarse las clases de cuarto año, querían eliminarlos y no graduarlos. 0 2203 Being Gay in Puerto Rico versus the Lehigh Valley LM: ¿Cómo usted compara ser un hombre gay en Puerto Rico ahora y en el Lehigh Valley?
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 ; FM: Fíjate, aquí los dirigentes están más con los gais. Tienen a los católicos, a los religiosos en contra diciendo que se van a ir al Infierno. Está un nuevo partido, que puso ahora uno o dos -- hay dos senadores puestos. Pero están mucho más aceptados ahora mismo en todas las cosas. Aun en la televisión, en todos los sitios. Aunque de vez en cuando, salen sus peleas y sus negaciones, pero es mucho más aceptado, es mucho más visto, mucho más querido. Y creo que en el Lehigh Valley era lo mismo. 0 2346 Working in Biological Sciences FM: Bueno, yo en el Lehigh Valley, lo de la parada y lo de Human Relations, eso eran mis pasatiempos, como yo decía. Mi trabajo fue directamente dentro del laboratorio. Yo trabajé en el University of Penn, trabajé en Lehigh University, trabajé en OraSure. Trabajé con Biological, trabajé haciendo todas las cuestiones en biología. Y me decían cómo era que yo podía poner la ciencia y estar mirando a la gente. 0 2418 Attending the Presidents’ Summit FM: También, cuando pasó lo de Presidents’ Summit, que estaba Bush, Clinton, y todos esos, fui uno de los representantes de Lehigh Valley. Estuve en Pensilvania representando a los latinos de Lehigh Valley. Fue una experiencia bastante grande. Conocí a mucha gente allí. Y todo fue directamente, o sea, allí, una de las personas que conocí que me gustó mucho su forma de ser fue Barbara Bush. 0 2494 Fighting for Other’s Rights FM: Estuve con la comunidad dominicana. Me dieron también una placa presumiendo de que los ayudé bastante a ellos, de que ellos no tenían quién levantar a la bandera ni la bandera dominicana en la ciudad y que no les daban permiso. Y yo luché por ellos para que le dieran el permiso de que levantaran la bandera directamente allí. Tuve buenas relaciones con los peruanos, tuve unas buenas relaciones con... Sencillamente, yo no me limitaba nada más a los puertorriqueños ; eran latinos, gais, o cualquier persona que sufriera directamente una discriminación por parte de alguna persona de que no querían hablar, lo hacía. 0 2622 Closing Remarks LM: Última pregunta: ¿sabe o piensa que hay alguna otra persona en la comunidad LGBT en el Lehigh Valley que deberíamos nosotros entrevistar para nuestro proyecto de historia oral? 
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 ; FM: Yo te diría si quieres buscar de gente de lo que está pasando ahora, lo nuevo, mi sobrino sería bueno para esas personas. Porque él sabe lo que está pasando ahora directamente dentro del círculo social, cultural y, junto con todo lo demás, laboral y todas las cosas juntos. Y él es abiertamente gay. O sea, él sabe lo que está pasando frente a la demás gente y está trabajando en el school district y sabe las penalidades que conlleva eso, está directamente dentro de él. 0 MovingImage Felix Molina recalls his early life growing up in Rio Piedras, Puerto Rico, fighting against Latino discrimination and for non-discrimination laws in the Lehigh Valley, and creating space for the Latino community. INTERVIEW WITH FELIX MOLINA FEBRUARY 22, 2022 LAURA MERCEDES: My name is Laura Mercedes, and I am here with Felix Molina to talk about his life and experiences in LGBT organizations in the Lehigh Valley as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT community oral history project. Our project has funding from the American Council of Learned Societies, and we are meeting on Zoom on February 22nd, 2022. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today, Felix. To start, can you please state your full name and spell it for me? Félix, gracias por estar aquí hoy. Para comenzar, por favor ¿puede decirme su nombre, apellido y deletrearlos? FELIX MOLINA: Okey, mi nombre es Félix Molina. Mi nombre es F-E-L-I-X, Molina, M-O-L-I-N-A. LM: ¿Me puede dar, por favor, su fecha de nacimiento? FM: Tres, tres del '62. LM: Preguntarte consentimiento. ¿Da su consentimiento a completar esta entrevista hoy? FM: Sí. LM: ¿Da su consentimiento a que esta entrevista sea transcrita, digitalizada y publicada en línea en formatos buscables? FM: Sí. LM: ¿Da su consentimiento a que el archivo LGBT utilice su entrevista para propósitos educativos, incluyendo películas, artículos, páginas webs, presentaciones y otros formatos? FM: Sí. LM: ¿Entiende que tendrá 30 días luego del envío electrónico de la transcripción para revisar la entrevista, identificar partes que desee eliminar, y/o retirar en su totalidad la entrevista del proyecto? FM: Sí. LM: Muy bien. Pues, para comenzar, ¿me puede contar sobre los primeros años de su vida y describir su niñez? FM: Bueno, yo nací en Río Piedras, que ahora pertenece a San Juan, aquí en Puerto Rico. Tuve una niñez muy feliz. Desde pequeñito, sabía que era gay. Como a los 10 años, 10 a 12 años, trataron de sobornarme ; me dijeron que tenía que pagar dinero, si no, le iban a decir a mi familia que yo era gay. Yo dije, "Pues no, yo no voy a pagar nada, así que yo se lo diré a mi familia." Me senté con mi familia -- nosotros siempre comíamos todos juntos -- y les dije, "Bueno, quiero decirles algo: yo soy gay. Si me aceptan, bien, y si no, pues seguiré, pero yo no voy a cambiar mi vida por nadie. Éste soy yo, así que está bien." Mis papás me dijeron, "Eres nuestro hijo, comoquiera te queremos." Mi hermano me dijo que ya lo sabía. Quedamos así más o menos. Así que desde esa edad, ya todo el mundo -- yo había salido del closet y había hablado con ellos. A los 18 años, tengo mi primer novio. Mi mamá, molestándome, me decía, "Tú, aquí, hablando todo el tiempo por teléfono. Y cuando él termina de hablar por teléfono, sabrá Dios si él se va por allí por las calles buscando y estando con otras personas y todo." Y yo, "Pues yo me voy." "No te puedes ir a menos que se lo digas a tu abuela." Y digo, "Eso es fácil." Salimos de compras y le digo a mi abuela, "Mira, abuela, cómprame estas sábanas king." Y ella, "Pero ¿cómo king si la cama tuya es twin?" "Ay, es que se me había olvidado. Es que voy a mudarme para casa de unos amigos, y tenemos una cama king." Y ella, "Ah, pues sí, pues yo te la compro si necesitas." Yo dije, "Venga -- se lo dije así -- definitivamente mañana me mudo." Y de ahí, me mudé a los 19 años, me mudé de casa. Me fui a vivir con mi amigo, era mayor que yo. Estuvimos viviendo por 12 años. Cuando tenía como 25, yo estaba ahora con una amiga mía, se llamaba Christina Hayworth. Era bien conocida aquí en Puerto Rico. Ella fue la que fundó la parada gay aquí en Puerto Rico. Le invitan a ella y a mí a representar a Puerto Rico en la parada gay de Nueva York. Mi primo estaba enfermo con SIDA en ese tiempo y yo fui entonces para allá para verlo a él y participar de la parada. Y me pusieron en el station, me dieron el micrófono para que hablara. Y dije, "Bueno, parece mentira de que yo tuve que venir de Puerto Rico a visitar a mi primo, que él tiene tantos amigos aquí, y ninguno habéis ido a visitarle al hospital, teniendo tanto miedo por esta enfermedad que nos está afectando además a muchos de todos nosotros. Tenemos que dejar el miedo y venir y estar nuevamente juntos como hermanos que somos y hacernos procurar uno con el otro." La verdad es que fue un orgullo para mí estar en la parada gay en New York y estar en la tarima. Fue una experiencia bien grande para mí. En eso, a los 30, nos dejamos mi amante y yo ; nos separamos. Y yo dije, "Puerto Rico es muy pequeño para nosotros dos estar aquí separados," así que me mudé para Estados Unidos. Me fui para Pensilvania. Allí llegué a New Hope. De New Hope, conocí a una persona que vivía en Bethlehem. Voy para Bethlehem y ahí entonces -- bueno, mi primer amante era ruso. Era ruso. En Bethlehem conozco a un puertorriqueño. Y entonces tuve que ir a Estados Unidos a conocer a un puertorriqueño que fuera entonces a estar conmigo. Estuvimos juntos por 13 años. Pasamos los sinsabores. Cuando llegué a Bethlehem, me di cuenta de que a los puertorriqueños los maltrataban. Definitivamente, discriminaban mucho por los acentos y por qué eras. Pero, más que todo, los mismos puertorriqueños discriminaban más a los puertorriqueños. Yo estaba en una tienda de espejuelos y había una -- yo estaba en la parte de atrás y vino una señora, "Ah, estas personas deben ponerles otro sitio de que estén esperando, que no pueden estar al lado de uno, que si esto y lo otro, que si me están haciendo -- yo estoy muy nerviosa aquí." Y la gerente dijo, "¿Él la ha molestado en algo?" Y ella, "No, pero su presencia nada más me molesta, y esto y lo otro, que no voy a estar si no, pues que yo no vengo más aquí." "Pues si no quiere venir, no venga, pero él está muy bien y lo vamos a atender a él." Voy, se lo digo a mi amigo, y en vez de darme la razón, me dice, "Sabrá Dios si tú estabas gritando o con la voz tuya intimidaste. Está tu forma de ser, que esto y lo otro." Pero la verdad es que nosotros mismos nos tiramos a nosotros mismos. Yo no dije nada, yo no estuve haciendo nada y hasta la misma gerente de la tienda lo vio. O sea que definitivamente no fue que yo estaba haciendo absolutamente nada malo. De ahí, estoy como presidente -- me eligieron. Estaba entonces trabajando en la -- bueno, me fui a trabajar con recycling a traducir todos los papeles de la ciudad al español porque vi entonces la necesidad de que estuvieran las cosas en español. Ahí vino la gran ordenanza de que todo tenía que ser en inglés. Yo estuve peleando bastante con Tropiano y con mi amigo Julio Guridy porque él no hizo nada para quitarla. Él decía, "Algunas ordenanzas están muertas, ¿para qué pelear por allí?" Y le digo, "Porque definitivamente es injusto que esté diciendo que tiene que ser todo en inglés cuando más el porciento de aquí, que hay gente aquí, es en español, y no lo conocen. Así que, yo considero que tú deberías hacer algo para eliminarla," lo que nunca hizo. Cuando estuvimos trabajando con eso, me seguí involucrando en las diferentes agencias y caí dentro de la Human Relations Commission. Estuve entonces como representante y en un tiempo entonces fui el presidente de Human Relations. Y estábamos recibiendo ordenanzas directamente para -- lo que bregábamos era más con los del housing y las cosas. Y venían y decían -- en una creyeron que yo iba a decir que no, que estaba mal la gente, que había que autorizar a los latinos estar con la música en alto y todas las cosas. Y digo, "No, no, no. Eso está mal hecho y los latinos, se supone, tienen que respetar al vecino y tienen que bajar los volúmenes, todas las cosas." Y en eso, me hice un poco más susceptible de que si ellos creían que yo porque era latino iba a estar en todo de acuerdo a los latinos, y a todo lo que no era latino iba a estar en contra. De ahí, empezaron entonces para hacerse las ordenanzas de incluir como discrimen a los gais y todo dentro de la ordenanza en Allentown. El consejo no quiso aceptar nada. Y una de las cosas que yo le dije -- o sea, estaban discutiendo si era legal o si era un animal doméstico o si era un animal de granja un cerdo. Y yo dije, "¿Para ustedes es más importante adivinar eso pero no le dan la importancia de que una persona que sea gay pueda tener sus derechos para estar viviendo aquí?" Y eso salió bastante reluciendo en el Morning Call porque después que estuvimos -- nos dejaron hablar por un tiempo en el City Hall porque por ley nos tenían que dejar hablar. Que una vez que terminamos de hablar, empezaron y cambiaron el tema y como si no hubiéramos dicho nada. O sea, nos trataron como nada. De ahí, se fue bastante tiempo. Cambió el City Hall, cambiaron los miembros del city council, y pudimos introducir nuevamente la ordenanza. Y esta vez, sí, pasó por los miembros que estaban y fue un éxito. En ese tiempo estuve también como presidente de -- bueno, antes de ser presidente de la parada puertorriqueña, estaba como miembro. Y había mucho desorden después que se acababa la parada, porque había parada por la Hamilton, parábamos en la -- en aquel día, hacíamos una -- tocaban unas fiestas y unas cosas y esto y lo otro, y ya a las cuatro se paraba de cantazo y todo el mundo para su casa. Y estaban ya todo la gente con la ansia revuelta y lo que hacían era que empezaron entonces a revolucionar los carros y estar caminando y gritando porque querían más fiesta y todo. Y no se hacía más nada. Y tuvimos bastantes problemas porque decían que se iba a eliminar. Los antiguos miembros de la parada dijeron que como castigo a los puertorriqueños, iban a parar la parada un año. Y dije, "No. A los puertorriqueños no se les tienen que castigar. Y si se para por un año, va a ser más difícil para volver poder a hacerla nuevamente." Así que, ahí hicimos elecciones nuevamente y yo salí como presidente. Y dije, "No, lo que vamos a hacer es que vamos a proporcionar un sitio donde puedan sacar esa energía y quitarla." Ahí hicimos entonces la parada y un festival luego de la parada. Una de las cosas que me insistieron mucho fue que incluyera cerveza dentro del festival. Y dije, "No. Nosotros no necesitamos más para hacernos, así que va a ser sin cerveza, va a ser sin alcohol. Y vamos tener el mejor festival latino sin alcohol y de mucha gente." La primera vez que pusimos las solicitudes para quienes querían entrar, una de las primeras que nos trajo la solicitud fue Bradbury del grupo gay poniendo entonces, okey, que querían participar. Y yo, "Pues claro." Y nos presentamos en el comité y el comité todo el mundo dijo que sí, que aceptaba, "exactamente así vamos a hacerlo, vamos a tenerlo." Y estaba Diamonz, estaba Stonewall, estaba Candida y todo el mundo. Incluyendo la press, estuvieron todos participando. Hicimos una semana cultural, en la cual estábamos un día en el club puertorriqueño, otro día en una bolera. E hicimos entonces un día que era gay dentro de la semana cultural, los gais latinos, e íbamos a Stonewall e íbamos a Candida o íbamos a Diamonz y se hacía entonces la noche cultural. La noche cultural dentro de todo se ponía gay. Y fue una aceptación bastante buena de la misma comunidad latina directamente hacia la comunidad gay. Para colmo, estuvimos en un tiempo cuando íbamos a hacer la parada, nos paró el alcalde, dijo que teníamos que pagar la policía anticipadamente. Pero siempre le hemos pagado luego. Se hace la parada y de ahí cuando se recoge el dinero, se paga. "No, esta vez, si no me das los chavos ahora mismo, no tienes parada." Y da la casualidad que la que vino enseguida a nuestra defensa fue Sullivan y nos dio un cheque de 3,000 dólares para que hiciéramos la parada. Y dijo, "Pues aquí están los chavos." "Ah, ¿ustedes se unen con esa gente?" "Pues, mira, bastante bueno que soy, y quiere eliminarnos, aquí están los chavos, así que vamos con la parada." Entonces, él mismo quería unirse con el centro. Estaba un grupo de la unión y yo la había puesto diferente. Los políticos siempre iban al frente solos y cada uno iban aparte. Y él cogió a los de la unión, "No, no, no, yo los quiero a ustedes al lado mío, se vienen conmigo." Y yo, "La unión va atrás, donde yo los puse." "Ah, el alcalde me dijo a mí que yo iba a ir acá." Y yo, "El alcalde no es el que manda en esta parada -- el que manda en esta parada soy yo. Yo soy el presidente y ustedes van allí atrás o se van de la parada. Una de las dos deciden." Así que se quedaron en la parte de atrás y fue todo -- removió directamente todo. Tuvimos un buen éxito, se dio una parada bastante bien, llegaron hasta casi en un tiempo -- nos contaron [inaudible] entrando y saliendo de eso que así una parada que estuvo Andy Montañez. Vinieron casi 10 mil a 12 mil personas. Y fue una parada -- estaban todos bien contentos, recibimos bastantes anuncios de que era una parada que no tenía licor y que venía tanta gente celebrando con nosotros. Estaba Kutztown, la gente de Kutztown, el grupo latino, tenían las piraguas, venían muchos artesanos, el gobierno de Puerto Rico nos mandaba artesanos. Teníamos a diferentes pintores y todo directamente allí, había bastante comida. Todo salió bien de las cosas, estuvo A-Treat, nos servía con todo los refrescos. Y aun así, la Budweiser, aunque no bebía -- mandábamos cerveza, durante la semana se podía usar, ellos siempre nos compraban anuncios y nos mandaba para celebrar directamente cuando estábamos en la semana cultural, se mandaba. O sea que aunque no estábamos directamente, ellos siempre estuvieron con nosotros aun así, aunque no usábamos ningún alcohol directamente en la parada. Durante estaba en eso, cambié a PSLC, Pennsylvania Statewide Latino Coalition. Y ahí tuvimos unos guardias de Pensilvania, de Filadelfia, atacaron a un latino y le apretaron tanto la medalla en el pecho que se la incrustaron dentro del pecho y lo mataron. Y cuando fuimos a ver -- eso fue en Shenandoah. La cosa era mucho más mala de lo que parecía. Estaba dentro la policía, la gente de la policía, el juez, el alcalde. Todos estaban incluidos dentro de esa trama en contra de los latinos. Y los White Supremacy estaban dentro. Cuando nosotros vamos, vamos en un grupo, esto y lo otro, estaban detrás de nosotros persiguiéndonos. Yo me eché a reír en una porque ellos se estaban escondiendo y tratando de mirar para dónde yo me había ido y yo había corrido por la parte de atrás y yo estaba ahora detrás de ellos. Yo les dije, "Hola." Y cuando miraron y me vieron atrás, dieron un brinco. "Ah, ¿qué usted está haciendo aquí? Que usted no puede venir aquí sin pedir permiso." Y yo digo, "Que yo sepa, esto es Estados Unidos y es un país libre, así que yo puedo venir." Y el mismo representante, el council viene y me dice a mí lo mismo. Y da la casualidad que me lo dice frente al agente federal. El agente federal le dije, "Déjeme unas palabritas con usted, porque aquí no hay que pedir permiso para venir a su ciudad y esta no es su ciudad ; esto es ciudad de Estados Unidos y vamos a chequear." Estuvieron haciendo las investigaciones necesarias y da la casualidad que la persona que había matado al hispano era nieto del juez. Y los que estaban cubriendo todo, el policía y el jefe de la policía y todo, todos fueron arrestados. Todos fueron completamente. El juez, todos. Y el alcalde, todos se fueron completamente y se llevaron. Pero yo recibí bastantes cartas de los White Supremacy, que me estaban velando, que yo estaba organizando a los latinos y organizando a la gente, que no podían hacer cosas, que me estaban velando, que me tuviera mucho cuidado. Y yo digo, "Mi dirección es pública, todo es público, así que lo que ustedes quieran hacer, lo pueden hacer. Aquí estoy." Y me mandaron cartas. Las tuve que mandar al FBI para que chequearan lo que estaba pasando. Pero todo estuvo bien. Nunca me hicieron nada, así que estaba todo bien. De ahí, estuve un tiempo trabajando en diferentes casos de daños civiles a los latinos y también a los que no eran latinos, solamente eran prejuicios sencillamente porque eran pobres o porque eran gais. Y estuve bastante con una compañía de abogados. De ahí, me dije, "Okey, ya está bien de tantas cosas." Me vine para -- mis padres estaban un poco más enfermos, ya mayores. Así dije, "Déjame irme para Puerto Rico a estar junto con ellos," y decidí venirme para acá hace ya como 12 años que estoy acá. Estoy en Caguas. Estoy tranquilo. Estoy disfrutándome mis viejos, estoy junto aquí. Y extraño mucho todavía porque yo estaba metido -- yo, en un tiempo, estuve hasta en 10 organizaciones a la misma vez y trabajando en todas los diferentes cosas, y ahora no estoy haciendo nada. Ahora lo que me paso es haciendo rompecabezas o viendo películas, todo tranquilo. O sea, ha sido algo bastante diferente a lo que hacía antes. Pero esa ha sido más o menos mi vida en cortas palabras ahí diferente. Y sí, aun así, si veo cualquier discrimen, nunca me quedo callado, ni me quedaré. Siempre lo seguiré haciendo y les deseo la mejor de la suerte a todo lo que ustedes están haciendo. Muchas gracias. ¿Si tiene alguna pregunta? LM: Gracias, sí. ¿Le puedo hacer alguna pregunta? FM: Sí. LM: ¿Cómo usted vio la relación entre la comunidad latina y la comunidad LGBTQ aquí en Lehigh Valley cuando usted estaba aquí trabajando con estos dos aspectos, con estos dos --? FM: Bueno. Yo la vi bien. No sé si era que a mí -- yo me di a respetar mucho. Yo en todos los sitios me hacía respetar y todo el mundo sabía que yo era gay. O sea, yo iba y puse la parada, puse que estaba la carroza gay, teníamos el día gay, que íbamos a la discoteca, que íbamos y salíamos y todas las cosas. Y la gente latina se ponían así, pero no se atrevían de frente a insultar o nada ; sencillamente aceptaban. Yo sabía que detrás a veces pasaba sus cositas, pero entonces cuando yo llegaba, todo se arreglaba, todo estaba tranquilo. Peaches and cream. No había ningún problema. Estaba todo bien y, no, los aceptamos, y están todos bien y seguimos lo más bien. LM: Hablo un poco desde el punto de vista de la comunidad latina, ¿cómo era ser un hombre latino en la comunidad LGBTQ aquí? FM: Era bien discriminante. Me veían como que "ah, tú eres un latino. Tú no tienes razón de estar aquí metido." Muchas veces me pasó en Candida. Sencillamente, me veían como un extraño, de "¿por qué tú estás aquí metido? Tú no eres -- nosotros somos aquí -- los americanos somos los que mandamos. Ustedes no tienen de eso, tú tienes que estar escondido en la esquina o afuera y no frente a nosotros. Nosotros somos los que te decimos qué tienes que hacer y dónde hacerlo." Y eso sí me encontré mucho. En las barritas chiquitas, así pasaba. Fuera de Allentown y Bethlehem, para los Poconos, había muchas barritas que había que tener miedo para entrar. O sea, te decían claramente, "No te queremos aquí, ni porque eres latino ni porque eres gay. Fuera de aquí y no te vamos a atender. No te vamos a hacer nada. Lárgate de aquí." Y era bien fea. No podías hacer absolutamente nada porque estábamos en su territorio. Pero yo sabía que para Bethlehem o Allentown yo tenía las de ganar, pero si me iba para fuera, para los Poconos, pues yo las que tenía era las de perder, estaba fuera de mi ambiente. Así que me aguantaba, y sabiendo dónde hacer las luchas que tenía que hacerlas. Pero, sí, la comunidad gay Allentown y Bethlehem eran bien reticente de aceptar a otra gente. Máxime, los gais blancos, rubios se creen que se lo merecen todo. Son bonitillos y esto y lo otro, y sencillamente no aceptan a otros que no sean igual que ellos, de ojos azules y todo lo demás. Discriminan mucho con los latinos como tal. Aunque sean gais también. LM: Si le puedo preguntar, ¿cómo usted manejó, manejaba, maneja ese discrimen? ¿Cómo lo maneja? FM: Bueno, es que yo no me creo ni más, pero tampoco menos que nadie. Y yo hago que me respeten por lo que yo soy. Y yo sencillamente digo, "Tú tienes que valorarme por lo que -- conóceme y después me hablas. Y vamos a vernos y yo hago frente a lo que sea." Como que me vean y, no es que me imponga, pero hago que me respeten. Tú puede ser que no me quieras o puede ser que no te interese que yo esté aquí, pero vas a tener que aceptarme. Como una canción vieja que decía que no importa cómo me veas, pero vas a tener que amarme. Pues, sí, haga lo que haga, vas a tener que amarme, porque yo no voy para ningún lado. Me vas a tener que aceptar de una forma o de otra. LM: Estoy yendo un poco para atrás. ¿Cómo usted llegó de hablar en la parada gay en Nueva York a tomar todos estos roles de liderazgo en la comunidad aquí? FM: Yo creo que mi padre es bien hablador y es sumamente un líder como tal. Y él me enseñó mucho eso. Él era el Santa Claus de la ciudad. Como éramos cuatro hermanos, tenía una guagua y siempre montaba a todos los muchachos y les llevaba y nos llevaba a la bolera y pagaba con todo el mundo, nos llevaba a comer a todo el mundo. Si estábamos haciendo la feria de la ciudad, buscaba chavos para hacer la catedral. Y eso era todos los años. Yo cuando niño, me acuerdo que me dieron un libro que era la parada de la iglesia y me dieron la Biblia para que la aguantara. Y como no venían a buscarla, yo cogí, abrí la Biblia, y seguí caminando al frente de todo el mundo y, "Ay, mira, qué lindo, el nene de la Biblia." Y era yo, sencillamente porque no me dijeron más nada, pues seguí caminando al frente de todo el mundo y yo con la Biblia entonces. Y desde ahí, pusieron "el nene de la Biblia." Entonces, caminando siempre al frente de la parada. Pero yo creo que sí, es más siguiendo los pasos de mi padre, directamente, en la parte de ser jefe, de ser -- ¿cómo es? -- un cacique no indio dentro de la parada. LM: Quería preguntarle un poquito más sobre la ordenanza de antidiscriminación. ¿Puede dar un poco de detalle de qué diría usted que fue lo que logró que esa ordenanza se diera y cómo fue ese proceso? FM: Si se hubiera mantenido el city council que estaba cuando se introdujo la primera vez, no hubiera pasado nada. Fue que la ciudad cambió ; la gente de la ciudad pidieron ese cambio. Y lo pidieron de una tal forma que también cambiaron a la gente que estaban en puestos dentro del city council, botaron a todos los que estaban en su forma retrógrada y pusieron entonces a unas personas mucho más avanzadas y pusieron directamente -- estaba Candida estaba dentro de la misma city council. Abiertamente una persona gay. O sea que cogieron y cambiaron directamente el cuerpo -- la gente de Allentown cambió su mentalidad hacia una mentalidad mucho más avanzado y dijeron, "No, esto ya tiene que acabar, esto tiene que ser." Y creo que mucha gente lo hacían porque se educó de que ellos creían que -- al principio, decían de que eso no hacía falta porque eso estaba ya incluido. Ya cuando se les enseñó que eso no estaba incluido. Lo pensaban, pero todavía podía traer y hacer el discrimen porque no era una ley. Mucha gente decía, "Ah, no. Entonces, la quiero, sí, está bien. Entonces, quiero hacer ese cambio." Y se produjo entonces. Directamente, vino la gente a hablar y esta vez sí se escuchó y se hizo el cambio. LM: Y pensando en ahora, ¿hay algo que usted sienta que hay que hacer? FM: Bueno, creo que debe ser -- yo ahora mismo no estoy muy enterado si ya es una ley federal el no discrimen contra los gais, pero debe ser federal. Creo que todavía, lo tuvimos ahora mismo con Trump, los white supremacists siguen y están avanzados completamente. Y lo que más reivindican, lo que más quieren hacer ellos es dividir y conquistar. Y lo hacen con las minorías más que pueden y con lo que pueden hacer directamente. Y lo vemos que tenemos que aumentar la división de la iglesia y el estado. Sencillamente la iglesia, muchas iglesias, están creciendo por ahí fomentado la desunión, fomentando que esto es algo inmoral, que esto es algo directamente del Demonio y el Demonio va a eliminar a Estados Unidos y va a eliminar todas cosas porque no se están haciendo las cosas como tiene que ser. Y debemos saber que eso no es lo que dice en la Biblia, y que tenemos que estar -- yo soy muy religioso. Yo voy siempre a la iglesia. Y eso no es lo que dice en la Biblia. Tenemos que aceptar la división de iglesia y estado y tenemos que ponernos juntos a crear que esa gente no entren en el poder, como tengo miedo de que vaya a pasar en el '24. Sencillamente juntos nuevamente vaya a pasar, porque están bien adentro y tienen unas mentalidades bien retrógradas y solamente piensan en pajaritos preñados y no hacen absolutamente nada por el bien del pueblo. Creen que ellos se lo merecen y que ellos son los que lo saben todo lo tiene que ser para el pueblo. LM: Pensando en Puerto Rico, ¿cómo fue para usted ser un niño de 10 años fuera del closet en Puerto Rico si puedo preguntarle para atrás un poquito? FM: Como mismo te dije, como yo me hacía dar a respetar, yo fui el presidente de mi clase. Todo el mundo lo sabía. Yo era el presidente de la clase, yo fui el presidente de pequeño, estaba llamando a todos los sitios. Fui la primera persona que en un colegio católico de Caguas hice una huelga porque estaban no dejando entrar a unos de nuestros compañeros porque fueron a darle una serenata a unas muchachas en retiro y ellos la pusieron -- entonces, después de que lo que faltaba era un mes para acabarse las clases de cuarto año, querían eliminarlos y no graduarlos. Y quedamos en acuerdo de que ellos se graduaran, que no pasaran por la graduación, pero que tenían que graduarse y tenían que coger los exámenes. Y quedamos en ese acuerdo, y yo levanté entonces a la gente. Pero todo el mundo nos sentamos al frente del portón y no dejábamos que pasara ningún carro, dejar ni nadie ni nada. No podían entrar. Y eso me costó la medalla del pensamiento del estudiante. Pero me gustó más tener a mis amigos, en su posición, que tener cualquier medalla que me hiciera tener que doblegar mis pensamientos de lo que realmente era verdad para nuestra comunidad. LM: ¿Cómo usted compara ser un hombre gay en Puerto Rico ahora y en el Lehigh Valley? FM: Fíjate, aquí los dirigentes están más con los gais. Tienen a los católicos, a los religiosos en contra diciendo que se van a ir al Infierno. Está un nuevo partido, que puso ahora uno o dos -- hay dos senadores puestos. Pero están mucho más aceptados ahora mismo en todas las cosas. Aun en la televisión, en todos los sitios. Aunque de vez en cuando, salen sus peleas y sus negaciones, pero es mucho más aceptado, es mucho más visto, mucho más querido. Y creo que en el Lehigh Valley era lo mismo. Lo único que, como te dije, la diferencia entre los white supremacists gais, los blanquitos de ojos azules, frente a los latinos y frente a la demás gente, y aquí no se encuentra eso sencillamente porque todos somos de diferentes colores y todas las cosas. Aquí lo que tiene es que el que tiene el cuerpo mejor y va mucho a la playa y hace ejercicio y esto y lo otro, a todos nosotros que somos gorditos nos tiran para el lado. Pero con eso no se puede hacer más nada. A mí me gusta comer y yo no voy a dejar de comer para que alguien me quiera. Si me quieren, que me quieran así -- gordito. Si no, que no me quieran. LM: Estamos ya llegando al final. No sé si haya algo que no haya dicho que quiera decir, algo de lo cual quiere hablar o que quiera expandir sobre su trabajo en Lehigh Valley, sobre su historia, sobre lo que usted quiera. FM: Bueno, yo en el Lehigh Valley, lo de la parada y lo de Human Relations, eso eran mis pasatiempos, como yo decía. Mi trabajo fue directamente dentro del laboratorio. Yo trabajé en el University of Penn, trabajé en Lehigh University, trabajé en OraSure. Trabajé con Biological, trabajé haciendo todas las cuestiones en biología. Y me decían cómo era que yo podía poner la ciencia y estar mirando a la gente. Yo no creo que hay una diferencia. Sencillamente, es la persona. O sea, la ciencia mira mucho lo que son los datos para tomar entonces tu decisión. Y con la gente es lo mismo. O sea, tú los tenías que mirar y tomar entonces tu decisión de cómo actuar frente a ellos y cómo seguirlos. Y yo tuve la dicha de que mis jefes siempre me dieron las oportunidades de que podía tener un horario flexible y podía hacer todas las cosas que yo quería aun teniendo entonces eso, estaba directamente. También, cuando pasó lo de Presidents' Summit, que estaba Bush, Clinton, y todos esos, fui uno de los representantes de Lehigh Valley. Estuve en Pensilvania representando a los latinos de Lehigh Valley. Fue una experiencia bastante grande. Conocí a mucha gente allí. Y todo fue directamente, o sea, allí, una de las personas que conocí que me gustó mucho su forma de ser fue Barbara Bush. Era tremenda persona, bien open mind. Tenía su forma de ser y cómo miraba las cosas y cómo miraba a la demás gente y cómo ella se pronunciaba. Creo que fue una de las personas que me impresionó bastante. Fui bastante junto con Ridge, el gobernador, Tom Ridge. Él fue el que me dio la placa de primer Latino Award de Pensilvania. También la tengo bastante bien. Tuve unas buenas relaciones con ellos, directamente bregando con los asuntos de latinos, bregando juntos con todas las cosas. Estuve con la comunidad dominicana. Me dieron también una placa presumiendo de que los ayudé bastante a ellos, de que ellos no tenían quién levantar a la bandera ni la bandera dominicana en la ciudad y que no les daban permiso. Y yo luché por ellos para que le dieran el permiso de que levantaran la bandera directamente allí. Tuve buenas relaciones con los peruanos, tuve unas buenas relaciones con... Sencillamente, yo no me limitaba nada más a los puertorriqueños ; eran latinos, gais, o cualquier persona que sufriera directamente una discriminación por parte de alguna persona de que no querían hablar, lo hacía. Tuve una vez en Filadelfia un pastelero que no le querían pagar los chavos, lo querían mantener fuera de que no querían darle el dinero porque supuestamente él renunció y se estaba yendo. Dije, "Pero si él te dio las dos semanas, entrenó a la persona que va a estar por él, ¿y no le quiere aun dar...?" "Ah, pero es que yo quería que él estuviera aquí por más tiempo." Y yo, "Pero es que él tiene un hijo que está muriéndose en su ciudad y él tiene que irse para allá. Así que tú le vas a pagar y se lo vas a pagar ahora." "Ah, pero que usted... Yo vine con la prensa." Y la prensa le dijo, "Yo no sabía que era con Félix que ibas a luchar, así que mejor que le pague porque yo con Félix no voy a luchar, así que te toca pagarle." Y, okey, pues le pagaron y se fue él directamente. O sea, fue bastante -- fueron muchas las luchas. Y me siento orgulloso de lo que pude hacer en defensa de las personas que estuve para yo lograrlo. LM: Nosotros estamos orgullosos de usted, y de todo lo que ha hecho. ¿Algo más que quiera añadir o alguna otra historia que quiera contar? FM: No por ahora. LM: Última pregunta: ¿sabe o piensa que hay alguna otra persona en la comunidad LGBT en el Lehigh Valley que deberíamos nosotros entrevistar para nuestro proyecto de historia oral? FM: Yo te diría si quieres buscar de gente de lo que está pasando ahora, lo nuevo, mi sobrino sería bueno para esas personas. Porque él sabe lo que está pasando ahora directamente dentro del círculo social, cultural y, junto con todo lo demás, laboral y todas las cosas juntos. Y él es abiertamente gay. O sea, él sabe lo que está pasando frente a la demás gente y está trabajando en el school district y sabe las penalidades que conlleva eso, está directamente dentro de él. LM: ¿Cuál es su nombre? FM: José Ángel Molina Agosto. LM: Gracias. Muchas gracias por su tiempo y por compartir, por abrirse a nosotros y contarnos su historia. Y gracias a todos por escuchar. Voy a darle pausa, no se vaya. Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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00:45:18
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Felix Molina, February 22, 2022
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Felix Molina recalls his early life growing up in Rio Piedras, Puerto Rico, fighting against Latino discrimination and for non-discrimination laws in the Lehigh Valley, and creating space for the Latino community.
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LGBT-26
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2022-02-22
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and Archives
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https://lgbt.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/6c981f851ed54fceae5afd4ebb5a050c.png
6d4ec96da023145c0f8d02f81fbf1c17
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Stories of Lehigh Valley LGBTQ+ Community Members (2022 - )
Oral History
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Mary Foltz
Interviewee
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Justan Parker-Fields
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LGBT-35.xml
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5.4 June 23, 2022 Justan Parker-Fields, June 23, 2022 LGBT-35 2:21:05 LVLGBT-2022 Stories of Lehigh Valley LGBTQ+ Community Members (2022 - ) Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository Support for the collection of this interview was provided by the American Council of Learned Societies (ACLS). trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Justan Parker-Fields Mary Foltz video/mp4 ParkerFieldsJustan_20220623_video_trimmed.mp4 0 https://youtu.be/_HsSmG1HVfM YouTube video English 0 Interview Introductions MARY FOLTZ: My name is Mary Foltz, and I'm here with Justin Parker to talk about his life and experiences in the Lehigh Valley as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Oral History Project. This year, our project has funding from ACLS and Justin and I are meeting at Muhlenberg College in their Rare Books room on June 23rd, 2022. And I just want to start by saying thank you so, so much for being here with me today. 
 ; 
 ; JUSTAN FIELDS: Thank you for having me here. I'm excited to do this and looking forward to it. 0 110 Early Years of Life/Relationship with Grandmother MF: Okay. All right. Business out of the way. I would like to start the interview today by asking you to tell me a little bit about the early years of your life. 
 ; 
 ; JF: Yeah. So I was born in Scranton, P.A. We don't pronouce the ‘T’ the Scranton, but I was born there and into a big family. We have a huge part of our family. My great grandfather was one of 12 children and they started from Alabama and made their way up to Scranton P.A., where they finally settled. We moved to Allentown when I was five. My mom got a promotion at the post office and so, you know, moved out of small Scranton over to Allentown. And yeah, that's where I grew up. I went through the Allentown School District, Central Elementary School, Raub Middle School. I'm a 2002 Canary. But yeah, we grew up with that. My two sisters in Allentown, my mom was a homeowner, a single mom. And, you know, it was -- she was strict, but she left us. You know, we have rules. We had a curfew. 0 453 Relationship with Mother MF: You also mentioned your mom. What kinds of characteristics of your mom did you want to emulate? 
 ; 
 ; JF: My mom didn't take any mess. She was a strong willed, single Black mother raising her three children in Allentown, and was a homeowner. And that wasn't really like a normal thing. You know, it was, you know, she did it without assistance, you know, and she knew what she wanted to do and she didn't take no for an answer. And, you know, she was somebody who had -- she's an entrepreneur. You know, she eventually, you know, retired and left the post office. But she's always somebody who is like, you have to just be your own boss. Because she just knew her path that she was going to pave. 0 574 School Days in Harrisburg & ; Allentown MF: Well, tell me a little bit about going to school in Allentown after your family moved here. You said you were a Canary. 
 ; 
 ; JF: Yeah. 
 ; 
 ; MF: Tell me a little bit about what it was like to go to school in Allentown. 
 ; 
 ; JF: So I always loved school. I was a big nerd. And I think that I would sometimes, like, you know, be a class clown, probably because I was bored right on the surface of life, you know. But I went to Central Elementary School and my first grade teacher’s was Mrs. Shankwell. I know, like all my teachers’ names. That's how much of a nerd I was in school. But I just love school. I loved, you know, reading and learning. 0 1270 Safe Space in Church/Art's Alive MF: Okay. Thank you so much for sharing that story. I was really struck by you talking about how safe spaces were so important for navigating microaggressions, even if you couldn't name them at the time. And you talk about two different safe spaces, your friends. But also, I mean, those elders at the church that came to stand for you. Was that also a safe space that maybe you could just talk a little bit more about the spaces that fueled you and supported you? 
 ; 
 ; JF: Yeah, definitely. So the Black church was always part of my identity growing up. And, you know, even now, the Pastor was looked at as, you know, the head of the church. The old church ladies, you know, who you know, you couldn't talk back to, whatever they say goes, you know, and then just all of us church kids who are just funny as adults, we share funny church stories as church kids that we went to and whatnot. But that was always a safe space because, you know, we go to church every Sunday. You know, the church family was your extended family. 0 1438 Relationship with Stepfather MF: You mentioned your stepfather a few times. Do you want to talk about the relationship with your with your stepfather? 
 ; 
 ; JF: Yeah I can. So my relationship then and now, two different things. So my relationship with my stepfather. When I -- it was always abusive. Since I was very young and it was abusive to the point where like, you know, my mom – it would happen when my mom was at work. And it would be anything like whether it's my fault or not my fault, I'll would get beat, you know. I would -- And it's not just like a regular spanking, I would get beat and then sent to bed. Now me and my two sisters, we have different fathers, so they have the same father, my sister, [Cherise and Maria?]. 0 1763 Time at Allen High School MF: And that made think about what else was happening besides school when you returned to Allen High School. You're living with your mom. What's happening in your school life? Are you dating? Like what -- what's happening around your education and family? 
 ; 
 ; JF: So I dated a lot in middle school, but I didn’t date in high school. And I think it's because I was so busy like I -- when I was in Scranton in ninth grade, I started working at McDonald's at 14. So I transferred to McDonalds when I came back to Allentown, 11th and 12th grade. 0 1976 Life After High School
 ; JF: And so work -- you know, to get that offer from management, I was just like, okay, forget college I'm liking in the fast money now and I didn't have any kids at the time. Like, let's just do it. And that's kind of how I put school on hold, and became a manager McDonald's, but if I didn’t continue to work there, I wouldn’t have, you know, met the mother of Samir and Sheileen and I kind of -- how that worked out. 
 ; 
 ; MF: Tell me that story. 0 2366 Co-Parenting MF: How did you figure out that co-parenting in the beginning? Because you're in your early twenties. 
 ; 
 ; JF: Yeah. 
 ; 
 ; MF: You're being a parent to her first child. Your first child, she gets pregnant. How did you navigate what parenting together would look like? 
 ; 
 ; JF: So even before Shamir, we learned so much with Sheileen. I was excited, you know, just to take on that role of responsibility, because I love her so much and I love your daughter and I want us to be a family. 0 2581 Post-Break Up / Living Unsheltered MF: Can you tell me a little bit about the time around the breakup and then what happened after that as you were coming to terms with your identity? 
 ; 
 ; JF: Yeah. So around the time of the breakup, I became unsheltered because, you know, I wasn't really welcome in the house anymore and I didn't really have anywhere to go. So I was kind of couch surfing and, you know, not realizing that I was really like, a statistic LGBTQ who was homeless or sheltered, you know, that was kind of the way it went. I didn’t really have a support system that much. 0 2787 First Boyfriend / Work Life MF: How did you meet John? 
 ; 
 ; JF: I met John on a dating app. So before there was, like, Grindr or stuff like that, there's an app called Adam for Adam. I can’t believe I‘m talking about this. But I met John on Adam for Adam. And it's funny because, you know, we started talking and we didn't really even exchange, pictures, but we're like, oh, you know, let's go, let's hang out. And I remember I went to go, I went to go meet him. But of course, you know, we didn't know each other – what we looked like at the time and he thought I was somebody else and he almost like retreated was like, I'm not going to meet you because like, I’m not attracted to you. 0 3098 Coming Out JF: So I told Jahmira at work. I was like, yeah, I got to tell you something, because, you know, me and you are cool. And I really consider you as friend, not just coworker. John, is not my best friend, he's my boyfriend. She said I knew it. What do you mean? She was like, I knew it I was waiting for you to say something, you know? And then I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, I was so -- I felt so comfortable to be able to talk about John as my boyfriend at work, still not out or open, you know, but I was able to confide in and my friend Jahmira, who I always, you know. Just like, if it wasn't for her, you know, or me, you know, even coming out to her, you know, how long would I still be closeted for? It was just felt -- it was like. It was such a sigh of relief. 0 3645 Community Organizing / Black Lives Matter Lehigh Valley MF: So I want to make sure that -- I want to kind of turn a corner to…You're working full time, but you're also when do you start to get involved in organizing, community organizing? I want to definitely talk about your city council run, but we're not quite there yet. Tell me when that started to become really important for you in your life? 
 ; 
 ; JF: I thought that it was always important because I grew up in Allentown. So when you're Allentown, we always say, you know, we are Allentown, you know? But I was just always -- just was like a member of community, like I didn't do organizing, I didn't do any of that. All of that happened by accident, happened with the Black Lives Matter protest. I didn't plan on it, on doing anything with community organizing until Kevin put the idea in my head, really. Prior to the Black Lives Matter of protest, two years prior to that, I put on Facebook that I was going to do a silent protest for Philando Castile, who was murdered by police officers. 0 4588 Chain of Nonviolent Protests
 ; MF: So BLM Lehigh Valley started. You had the meeting with the police. You made the -- you suggested. And then at your suggestion, they made their use of force policy publicly. What happened next for the organization? 
 ; 
 ; JF: So, there was this group formed. It was like this, Lehigh Valley coalition right, and it was a group of like minded individuals who got together like a cohort. And that's when the chain of protest started. Cause a lot of protest -- some of the protests were like BLM protests, but other ones like it was BLM and other protests. But it was all of us together as a collective. It was myself, Darian Colbert, it was Rodney Ibene, who was Pastor A. Edwards’ son, Ashley Strange, Yamelisa Taveras, who's head of Lehigh Valley -- Ashley Strange, Lehigh Valley Stands Up, Yamelisa Taveras from Unidos, Arthur. It was just a group of us and it was so grassroots, organic and we’re just like okay we’re just going to meet. And we're going to just start planning out, you know, things in in protest. It was a big leap away. And from there, you know. We showed up in protest in meetings with different organizations like groups wanted to talk to us.
 ; 0 4865 Election Season / BLM Endorsements MF: What happened after that summer? Did you continue through the fall? And how? Tell me a little bit about that process. After an incredible period of energy, what occurs after? 
 ; 
 ; JF: Yeah. So we started brainstorming because, we’re like election season is coming and we have to start putting people in positions of power. People haven't seen the table or voting for candidates that are already out there, you know, supporting them and backing them. At the height of the Black Lives Matter movement in the Lehigh Valley, especially in Allentown, we were big supporters of Ce-Ce Gerlach and Josh Siegel and even Cynthia Mota, you know, because they were their allies, they understood it. 0 5284 Becoming a City Council Candidate MF: So how did you become a candidate, if you weren’t supposed to do be? How did that happen? 
 ; 
 ; JF: So we were meeting, the cohort was meeting one night and they had threw the idea out that, you know, -- it was supposed to be Arthur, Arthur Benson was going to run for city council and Rodney was going to run for school board. And so we sort of started plotting a plan, like we're going to start like infiltrating city council and the school board, and, you know, we Lehigh County. And, you know, we thought that time, you know, we had Amy Zanelli, and Zakiya Smalls, and you know, Geoff Brace. So they were like, okay, county’s good, like, you know, we can show up and assist and help them. It's the city level that we really need to get, the school board. 0 6155 Change Now MF: I will -- I know -- I want to acknowledge that. But you also have this incredible nonprofit that is something that you and Kevin have been working on. So could you tell me a little bit about Change Now and how you're putting your energy toward that organization in just 1/2? Okay. So could you tell me a little bit about change now? 
 ; 
 ; JF: Yeah. So we had co-founded Change Now, me and Kevin, because we knew that Black Lives Matter Lehigh Valley was like our group, but it wasn't ours. It was already like a national group. We had no ownership to it. It was just something that we did locally and had a huge following. Like, remember, we have like five or 4000 followers and we were like, wow, like this is something. 0 6617 Doreen's Christmas Baskets / Kevin Jefferson's Mother KJ: And so then we put the groups of presents together and we were have a Post-it note with the mom's name and the kid's name and their ages. And so then when -- we would be messaging the families back, hey, you're your order number this. This is -- your number 15, your number 16, or if they forgot the number, we look up their name and they're like, okay, you know, so-and-so's here, okay, that's number 12. And then we get the Post-it note and take the presents downstairs. And that's how we did our Christmas toy giveaway. We did Doreen's Christmas Baskets ; Kevin's mom passed away -- in memory of her five children.
 ; 
 ; And to keep her memory alive, we wanted to do that cause she was such a big supporter and Kevin was the only, you know, he’s the only son out of all – he has four sisters, he’s the only son. And he had a really – like he was super close to his mom. He was a mama's boy, you know. And, you know, she passed away a week before Christmas and it was hard for him. And I just remember, like, I remember just – and even people say to him, but like, wow. 0 6828 Meeting Kevin Jefferson / Relationship with Kevin MF: Do you want to share that your -- how you met Kevin, who has been your partner with Change Now and your partner in [inaudible]. 
 ; 
 ; JF: Yeah. So, I met Kevin on a dating app called Badoo and really, I wasn't even sure Kevin was gay because on Badoo, you get -- when you look at someone’s profile it says that they're interested in men or women or nothing at all. And Kevin's, either said nothing or it said women. And I was just like, I’d never been on the app before, maybe people want this app to find friends. I make I mean, as an adult, how do you make friends? 0 7749 The Color Purple at the Civic Theater MF: We didn't talk about the Color Purple. 
 ; 
 ; JF: Oh, my gosh. We didn't. Wow. 
 ; 
 ; MF: Do you want to talk about…? 
 ; 
 ; JF: Life changing? Can we real quick? 0 8443 Closing Remarks MF: I just want to close by saying I am just so grateful that you took the time to sit down today and to share some of your life story. And I'm also just grateful to live in a community with you and to know you. So thank you so much. 0 MovingImage Justan Parker Fields describes his early years of life in Scranton, Harrisburg, and the Lehigh Valley, personal relationships, and work with the organization Change Now and in the play The Color Purple. Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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02:21:06
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Justan Parker-Fields, June 23, 2022
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Justan Parker Fields describes his early years of life in Scranton, Harrisburg, and the Lehigh Valley, personal relationships, and work with the organization Change Now and in the play The Color Purple.
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LGBT-35
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2022-06-23
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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d8069c926408849702c5d27095069cab
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Stories of Lehigh Valley LGBTQ+ Community Members (2022 - )
Oral History
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Mary Foltz
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Kevin Jefferson
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LGBT-34.xml
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contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka
5.4 June 21, 2022 Kevin Jefferson, June 21, 2022 LGBT-34 1:14:17 LVLGBT-2022 Stories of Lehigh Valley LGBTQ+ Community Members (2022 - ) Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository Support for the collection of this interview was provided by the American Council of Learned Societies (ACLS). trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Kevin Jefferson Mary Foltz video/mp4 JeffersonKevin_20220621_video_trimmed.mp4 1.0:|27(9)|64(10)|81(14)|102(4)|125(14)|148(6)|169(4)|192(4)|213(10)|234(13)|253(16)|276(3)|301(4)|322(2)|347(13)|368(10)|393(5)|414(17)|435(2)|456(14)|479(7)|498(17)|519(10)|540(16)|565(6)|582(7)|607(11)|632(4)|653(13)|674(2)|695(19)|718(7)|739(7)|758(2)|781(3)|800(8)|827(6)|844(10)|861(13)|884(10)|907(5)|928(8)|949(8)|966(15)|989(4)|1010(2)|1029(16)|1050(10)|1069(4)|1088(14)|1107(12)|1130(12)|1151(11)|1176(14)|1197(5)|1216(10)|1233(14)|1254(15)|1277(3)|1296(11)|1319(9)|1340(10)|1361(10)|1380(6)|1399(16)|1420(8)|1439(10)|1456(6)|1475(14)|1494(19)|1515(2)|1534(13)|1553(3)|1572(14)|1581(12) 0 https://youtu.be/AT-zqO7LZxQ YouTube video English 0 Interview Introductions MF: Well, my name is Mary Foltz, and I'm here with Kevin Jefferson to talk about his life and experiences in LGBTQ organizations in the Lehigh Valley. And this is a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. This year our project has funding from ACLS, and Kevin and I are meeting at Muhlenberg College today is June 21st, 2022. And I want to just start by saying thank you so much for meeting with us today.
 ; 
 ; KJ: I'm humble. Humble to be here.
 ; 
 ; MF: I'm just thrilled that you're here. And to start, could you please state your full name and spell it for me?
 ; 
 ; KJ: My name is Kevin James Jefferson. That's K-E-V-I-N, J-A-M-E-S, J-E-F-F-E-R-S-O-N. 0 117 Upbringing
 ; KJ: Um, I grew up, there was five of us, I had four sisters, only boy. I was spoiled. Definitely. My, um, my mother. My mother really spoiled me. She did. A lot of my drive and motivation actually comes from her, and just our upbringing. My mom was a single mom. She definitely did her best. But there were times where we lived in shelters and things of that sort. 0 243 Growing up in Whitehall, PA
 ; MF: Describe the community where you grew up, was that..? 
 ; 
 ; KJ: I grew up, when I was a kid, about until I was about five. We lived in Florida till I was about five. Did move to Allentown for a little bit. But I can say, like when I was around six or seven, we moved to Whitehall and that's where I actually say I grew up because really, once we moved to Whitehall, the house that we lived in, we stayed in until graduation. So now I always say I'm from here. I lived here the most. Yeah. 0 508 Relationship with Mother KJ: And my mom was really good at those machine games where you put the quarter in and it drops down and picks-- the claw machine. And I think honestly, we spent like $15, but she made sure she got me that doll and like she never treated me different out there. I wanted the doll, [snaps] she got me the doll. So I just, I didn't know I was different. I didn’t. And she didn’t make me feel that way.
 ; 
 ; I even have an older sister, who's a lesbian, and she came out to my mom, and my mom was doing the dishes when she came out to her. And my mom was just like “Yeah okay”, and like Deanna was like, “I'm serious, mom, I’m gay”. And my mom was like, “Yeah, I know. I like, I know these things”. So, I just remember her being really accepting. Even when I had to educate her on things like even… My mom was a white woman from New York. She had blue eyes, blond hair, a New York accent. You couldn’t tell she had mixed kids unless you met them. 0 769 Going to School in Whitehall / Friendships little bit about the Whitehall community. What was what was school like for you in Whitehall?
 ; 
 ; KJ: I was my mom's star child. They would say, they would say in their own words, they would just -- stop. My sister – My sisters they weren’t rough and stuff. It's just, I would say I'm more laid back, in a sense. Everyone knew Kevin for good reasons, and I never fought or anything like that. And I just remember the teachers would pull me aside and say, you know, you're your mom's star child. And anyone that knew Kevin, and I don't say this to gas me up. But they would smile because they had a funny story about Kevin. 0 1070 Coming to Terms with Sexuality MF: You said it was a long process to come into your gayness. Can you describe that process? 
 ; 
 ; KJ: Which is sad because I shared a room with my older sister. Well, first she tricked my mom into giving my room to pay rent, and I think she paid rent once. But whatever, I shared with my older sister, eventually. She's a lesbian stud. And there was a gay flag on the wall and stuff. I had a girlfriend for about five years, and at the time ; I don't know if this is TMI, but at the time, that's all I knew. So of course, I was, like, faithful and I really cared for her. I really did. 0 1282 Dating in Early 20s MF: You talk about -- so you kind of made this decision. Well then what? Where did you go in the Lehigh Valley to meet people or was there a process for you sort of like, I'm going to the Stonewall or I'm going…
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 ; KJ: You know what's sad and I hate to say this cause I was supposed to go there like when they were about to close, but I never been to Stonewall. I've been to, I've been to other gay bars in the Lehigh Valley, but I never experience like Diamonz or Stonewall, never got to experience that. But I've gone to Philly to gay clubs and stuff. And when I first came out of the closet and I knew, like, this is what I want, I don't know who I want and when, but this is what I want. I went into a gay bar and it did take some adjustment of like getting hit on. I was always the one like doing that. That was me and initiating and stuff and it took you used to but one once I got out there and I met the community and stuff, I actually got to see how beautiful our gay community is. 0 1565 Meeting Justan
 ; KJ: [...] But I met some good guys and stuff, but little did I know the love of my life lived in the same town as me, it just took a little while.
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 ; MF: How did you meet? 
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 ; KJ: Oh, we met on an app called Badoo. I don't even know if the app still works now. And, I mean I’ll let him tell you what --, I can tell you from my perspective, he like, he didn't know if I -- because there were straight people on there, as well as lesbian, gay, and transgender. 0 1719 Work Life MF: We talked a little bit about -- I mean, I'm sure we'll talk more about Justan in quite a bit. But we talked about education. What happens to you sort of after you’re sort of moving through school? What is your work life like? We talked a little bit about your dating life, like what's happening in terms of your work life. And then I'm hoping we could kind of move towards your organizational...
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 ; KJ: Oh, yes. Okay. So my work life started when I was 16. I would help my mom, as well as my older sister, as we would all help with the bills and stuff. And I had a under-the-table, full time job, and then I had a part time job and I worked my butt off. I was 17, 16, turned 17, and I felt like working and stuff that helped ground me. 0 2130 Change Now KJ: And I think -- and I know we don't speak about it yet, but I think that's why we went official with Change Now. Instead of “Hey, we're going to go do a Thanksgiving meal at the men's shelter and stuff or we're going to drop [presents] off at the shelter”. We started something I feel that is beautiful, Change Now, and it's just the beginning and I see us doing really big things with that. We have an awesome team and I see the change that we're making in the community. It may be small to other people, but those accomplishments are big to us. Really big. 
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 ; MF: Tell me the story of Change Now. I mean, it's so clear that your mother is an inspiration. 0 2376 Change Now's Programs/Mission of Change Now KJ: Yeah, Justan can quote me on that, but I want to say we had it officially for two years. Now, our last event that we just did was Humankind Day last month. And where we provide it like toys, summer toys and stuff to the community, they didn't even have to get out their cars. You literally just stayed in your car and went stations and station and you were provided with -- We would just ask how many kids? And we had buckets, bubbles, chalk, games. And I love doing that -- working on Change Now, is something that I can do around the clock, and I feel like I kind of never get tired from it because it's honestly something I enjoy doing. And at these events with speaking with members of the community and stuff, or even one of our programs. 0 2739 Goals of Change Now MF: When you and Justan were talking about that, is that what you were imagining in that original conversation, this kind of organization with these wonderful, incredible gifts to our community, or has it passed, surpassed? 
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 ; KJ: Surpassed by far. I honestly couldn't imagine like it -- us accomplishing so much with Change Now, and just the friends that we've made with Change Now and stuff. I couldn't imagine not knowing them though. Anita and Luna come to mind, they're the one that's run SELF! Women's Reentry and they’re our sisters we have gone to Puerto Rico with them. We have cried with them. We failed with them, we've succeeded with them and stuff. And I just couldn't imagine my life without them. 0 3003 Structure of Change Now MF: Can I ask you a little bit about the structure Change Now, because I know you work a full time job and Justan works a full time job. How does the organization operate? Is it all volunteer or how do you keep it so successful, even when you're working full time?
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 ; KJ: We have -- and I have to thank our team, we have a tight circle. A lot of our volunteers are actually people that I've been personally work with. 0 3213 Black Lives Matter Lehigh Valley MF: Can I ask -- so what is the relationship or is there a relationship between Change Now and then your work with Black Lives Matter Lehigh Valley, putting up the page…?
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 ; KJ: We kept that separate, just because with nonprofits, you really don't want to get into politics and stuff and so we separated the two, but that didn't change our focus with the two. With the Black Lives Matters Lehigh Valley page, that page, like we do have a Change Now Facebook page, but the Black Lives Matter Lehigh Valley page is the page that is really active. There are families in the community reaching out, whether it be question for assistance or, hey, did you see this article and stuff, and you want to stay on top of it. You don't want to keep these people leaving this page. 0 3553 Importance of Black Lives Matter Lehigh Valley MF: I know you've passed the baton on, but I have a question about that origin story for Black Lives Matter, Lehigh Valley. I guess my question comes from, you know, it's a national movement. I mean, we can hear about organizations in different sort of major cities. Why was it important to start Black Lives Matter in Lehigh Valley here in Allentown? Like, you know, what is the important for you of having a local organization that's also sort of connected to the national conversation? 0 3844 Engagement to Justan/Visions for the Future 0 4179 Co-Parenting MF: So can I ask you, what's it like to be, as you are right now, a dad with Justan and with….
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 ; KJ:. And I will say, our son, even though is a small case, he has autism. And I think when I first met him, I was like 21, 22, 22, became a stepdad and he had autism. And I only asked that question like, “do you have kids?” just to make conversation, I didn’t expect him to say yes. But honestly, being a step-parent I felt like is what I was meant to do and stuff. That -- just as Justan's my best friend, my partner, the person I trust, it's the same for his daughter and son. That's my family right there, I give them my heart. 0 4312 Closing Remarks MF: Well, we're nearing the end of the interviews, but I want to ask you, is there anything that we missed that you thought, oh, I really want to talk about that. Anything that you wanted to sort of talk about at the end? 
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 ; KJ: I would just say, let's -- it's nice that we talked how Black Lives Matter, I'm a Black man. But let's talk about more LGBTQ issues going on in the community and let's just talk more about it. 0 MovingImage Kevin Jefferson describes their early life in the Lehigh Valley, personal relationships and coming to terms with their sexuality, and their pivotal non-profit work with Black Lives Matter Lehigh Valley and Change Now. MF: Well, my name is Mary Foltz, and I'm here with Kevin Jefferson to talk about his life and experiences in LGBTQ organizations in the Lehigh Valley. And this is a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. This year our project has funding from ACLS, and Kevin and I are meeting at Muhlenberg College today is June 21st, 2022. And I want to just start by saying thank you so much for meeting with us today. KJ: I'm humble. Humble to be here. MF: I'm just thrilled that you're here. And to start, could you please state your full name and spell it for me? KJ: My name is Kevin James Jefferson. That's K-E-V-I-N, J-A-M-E-S, J-E-F-F-E-R-S-O-N. MF: And would you be willing to share your birthday? KJ: Yeah. October 25th, ′91. MF: And before we started the interview, you and I went over a consent form. But I just want to go back through those questions. Do you consent to an interview today? KJ: Yes. Definitely. MF: And do you consent to having the interview transcribed and digitized and made publicly available online? KJ: Yes. Yes, I do. MF: And do you consent to the LGBT archive using your interview for educational purposes or in other formats like articles or on the website or presentations? KJ: Yes, I would love that MF: Thank you. And then we talked about after the interview is transcribed, I will send it to you, and you'll have 30 days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review the interview. You can identify our parts that you want to delete, or you could withdraw the interview from the project. Was that clear to you? Did I make that clear? KJ: Yep. MF: Okay, great. So I think we can just go ahead and get started. KJ: Awesome. MF: So my first question for you would be just tell me a little bit about the early years of your life. KJ: Um, I grew up, there was five of us, I had four sisters, only boy. I was spoiled. Definitely. My, um, my mother. My mother really spoiled me. She did. A lot of my drive and motivation actually comes from her, and just our upbringing. My mom was a single mom. She definitely did her best. But there were times where we lived in shelters and things of that sort. So and I think that is why I started and my partner started doing what we do, to try to give back, especially in her honor. My mother passed away in 2020, but before that, she would even help me. I would go and get gifts and donate them for like a boy and a girl, donate them to the shelters each year and stuff, just to give back. Because I was that child. She let us make mistakes and she was really accepting, you know, like I never had the conversation with my mom, like, "Oh, I'm gay". I just came home with a boyfriend, and she just was like, "Okay". [laughs] I mean, she teased me. She teased me before then, when we were just friends, but, moms know. So, she wasn't really shocked. What else-- I just. I just remember being a kid and playing and just playing in the streets with my sisters and my friends. I have cerebral palsy, but never used it as like a disadvantage. And I was in the streets, climbing trees, all of that. So that never stopped me. What else, I'm trying to think here. MF: Describe the community where you grew up, was that..? . KJ: I grew up, when I was a kid, about until I was about five. We lived in Florida till I was about five. Did move to Allentown for a little bit. But I can say, like when I was around six or seven, we moved to Whitehall and that's where I actually say I grew up because really, once we moved to Whitehall, the house that we lived in, we stayed in until graduation. So now I always say I'm from here. I lived here the most. Yeah. MF: What was Whitehall like? KJ: Whitehall was...I feel like kids nowadays are different than the kids that we were. I mean, bike riding, manhunt in the neighborhood. Everyone knew when the streetlights came on. Get your butt home and stuff. It was a beautiful upbringing and a good time. There's a lot of stuff that I see today, that maybe shouldn't happen, even though I'm what was a brown boy, with a limp. For some reason, I always met the description in Whitehall, and I never understood that. And I honestly never knew that it was a bad thing until I got older. It was just something I was used to. I didn't really have my father around to educate me about being a black man, you know? And these things can happen. Definitely things my mom mentioned to me, but it was nothing that was instilled in me. Oh, yeah. I got to take a little breather once I, once I think about that, because I have to say, it happened about like three times. And the youngest, I was ten years old and how does a ten-year-old meet the description? It's crazy. But besides all that, I grew up Fullerton, Fullerton Park in Whitehall. I played football for two years, baseball for one year. You can even say I was a cheerleader. [laughs] Like because my sister was a cheerleading coach, so I never missed a practice there either. But a really active kid and we're a tight family, so, so we would support one another and stuff. So I can't complain my upbringing. There is not one thing that I would take back. I wouldn't even say, like when we were at our brokest. I feel like those were my happiest times growing up in the shelter with my sisters. We always made the best of it. So it was home, it was what I knew. Yeah. MF: You said that being in the shelters had of some of your best memories, do you remember specific memories that you might want to share? KJ: Yeah. So one time my sister Daina, she's the second, the second oldest. And I tell you, my mom, she always just let us fly and let us learn. Daina wanted to make Christmas cookies the one year that we were there, and she made these Christmas cookies and she had to use half a bottle of salt. I mean, when I tell you, they were so salty, they were so salty. But you can see like the displeasure on her face because she knew they were salty. So we would eat them, and lie to her like "Oh they're so good, they're so good". But then everyone's running to the bathroom to get a drink of water. Because they don't want to hurt Daina's feelings. And that is one memory I always go back to, living in a shelter. I remember my mom taking us on a surprise trip, and the surprise trip was going to the movies to see the Rugrat movie. And that always brings me back. One of my favorite memories is going to see the Rugrat movie, and I'm telling you, my mom had to know that I was gay, because there was this doll in the machine and I had to have the doll. And my mom was really good at those machine games where you put the quarter in and it drops down and picks-- the claw machine. And I think honestly, we spent like $15, but she made sure she got me that doll and like she never treated me different out there. I wanted the doll, [snaps] she got me the doll. So I just, I didn't know I was different. I didn't. And she didn't make me feel that way. I even have an older sister, who's a lesbian, and she came out to my mom, and my mom was doing the dishes when she came out to her. And my mom was just like "Yeah okay", and like Deanna was like, "I'm serious, mom, I'm gay". And my mom was like, "Yeah, I know. I like, I know these things". So, I just remember her being really accepting. Even when I had to educate her on things like even-- My mom was a white woman from New York. She had blue eyes, blond hair, a New York accent. You couldn't tell she had mixed kids unless you met them. But my mom, she always let us -- even when, and I don't mean to jump ahead, but like when the Black Lives Matter movement came and stuff, my mom, instead of saying, like, "All lives matter", she, she let us educate her on, when we say Black Lives Matter, what we're truly trying to say. And it's not that all lives don't matter, it's just right now our Black lives are the ones hurting. And she understood and she asked questions and stuff, and she respected my point of view and stuff. Even if she felt -- Even if she didn't say it and she thought I was being extra, she still made it seem like "I understand, I care," and I appreciate her for that.I really do. I remember she always kept a garden, so we always grew tomatoes, peppers, cucumbers. I remember one time she made pickles. She tried to make homemade pickles. And they came out nasty from the pickles that she grew -- the cucumbers. So what she did was, she threw them out, and she bought pickles and put them in a Mason jar and everyone was just so amazed at her cooking skills, "You made these pickles", like "We never need to buy pickles". And later on it came out that she went to the store. So she was always a trickster like that and stuff. Just a wonderful person, honestly. I just I can't stop talking about her, because she's the reason why I do what I do now and stuff. She raised me to be a man, a woman raised me to be a man. And I don't think that me having four sisters and a single mom turned me out to gay. And it's sad, I even have to say that. But a lot of people in society feel that way. And it's, it's sad. But I had girlfriends, I just like guys more. Yeah, but what else can I think of from my upbringing? I remember being in the kitchen a lot. I learned how to cook at an early age. I went to say like ten, ten, 11. I know people who cooked before that, but that's really when I learned how to cook. And my mom was just big on cooking, and cooking, brought the family together and stuff and getting the meals prepared and stuff. That was family time in the kitchen. So I was always one of those, one of those boys tied to their mom's hip in the kitchen cooking. And now I could cook anything, I could cook anything. Yeah, I'm trying to think of other stuff, they'll come to mind as we go on. MF: Well, you talked a lot about your beloved and wonderful mother and your siblings, a little bit about the Whitehall community. What was what was school like for you in Whitehall? KJ: I was my mom's star child. They would say, they would say in their own words, they would just -- stop. My sister -- My sisters they weren't rough and stuff. It's just, I would say I'm more laid back, in a sense. Everyone knew Kevin for good reasons, and I never fought or anything like that. And I just remember the teachers would pull me aside and say, you know, you're your mom's star child. And anyone that knew Kevin, and I don't say this to gas me up. But they would smile because they had a funny story about Kevin. So I appreciated my time in Whitehall, and my teachers and stuff, and I felt like I was cared about by my teachers and staff. So I can't say nothing but good things about the staff out in Whitehall and stuff. I never felt different, whether it was being black or being black with a disability. I never felt different. I honestly didn't realize, I had a -- I walked with a limp until I was like maybe like in seventh, eighth grade and stuff. That's when I was just like, I really do have a limp. No one ever treated me different. So I wanted to play sports, I got to play sports and I just appreciated that even at Fullerton. Like it wasn't like, they didn't treat me any different. I got to -- I got to play in and stuff. I was a linebacker and they just let me do my thing. And it was great times. Great times. MF: Well, tell me about some of those great time. What was your circle of friends like? KJ: My circle of friends are my neighborhood kids. I lived in the townhouses and then there was a apartment building in Maryland Circle down the street and everyone just knew everyone. And I was a kid who had a pool in their backyard. So, so we all at night swimming and stuff would get together then. And we weren't -- We weren't ad kids. I mean, we were kids. We drank when we weren't supposed to. I remember getting caught doing that, and my mom was extremely upset, but we played manhunt, and kickball was a big one. And football, we used to play the townhouses versus Maryland Circle. Maryland Circle always won because they had the best players. They always had the best players. But we still did it, and it was still fun. And even today, a lot of those people that I hung out with as a kid, we're still friends to this day. Actually, the one, my one friend Dashawn, he's actually going to be my best man at my wedding. And so, yeah, like my, my best friend. And my best friend Diamond and stuff. She, I literally -- She was always the friend who did everything first. She used to. She used to make me upset about that, like, "Can I do something first"? She got her driver's license first. I mean, the permit first, the car first, the job first. And I seen her grow up to an independent woman. She's a single mom, but she has three beautiful girls, just bought a house and, and she's doing it. And I'm proud to see my friend succeed. Even my friend Dashawn, he runs a successful YouTube channel and stuff. And I just love to see my friends doing great and that that honestly helps motivate me to do more like maybe I'm slacking a little bit, but we keep each other on our toes. And to look back on another great time, we're always like Halloween trick or treating nights when we would all go trick or treating. God knows till like, we were like 15, 16 still going trick or treating but then we would all go to someone's house and watch a scary movie and stuff. And again, none of my friends ever treated me different. So, it was just a -- it was just a long process to realize, "Hey, you like guys", it was a long process that "Hey you got a limp". But I wouldn't change any of it. I felt like I was respected by the ones who loved me straight, and I felt like I was respected by them gay. Yeah. And there were some friends who dropped throughout the years and stuff, but it's the ones who are still there that matter. So I don't really focus on who's not here. MF: You said it was a long process to come into your gayness. Can you describe that process? KJ: Which is sad because I shared a room with my older sister. Well, first she tricked my mom into giving my room to pay rent, and I think she paid rent once. But whatever, I shared with my older sister, eventually. She's a lesbian stud. And there was a gay flag on the wall and stuff. I had a girlfriend for about five years, and at the time ; I don't know if this is TMI, but at the time, that's all I knew. So of course, I was, like, faithful and I really cared for her. I really did. I mean, I'm glad to know now, like, I like guys now, but I feel like because I was always in a relationship when I was a kid, I never really got to experiment and see until I was actually single a year. And like, "Hey, he's kind of cute," so. But when you think that, you have to know it's for sure, that's what you want. Because once you've gone down that route, which is sad, society labels you as gay or like you can never just be experimenting. So I just wanted to make sure that once I started talking to the same sex,.I just wanted to make sure that it was something that I wanted, and it was. I'm engaged -- I'm engaged now. So it's definitely something that I wanted. And I just felt like, "Man Kevin", and he just was like, if you just knew back then, cause there was just so many opportunities. No I'm joking, but I just feel like it took me a slower process. Like my sister, she knew from the beginning, like "I like girls, I like to dress up masculine. This is what I'm comfortable in" and stuff. Whereas it took Kevin, like 12 years. I think I finally realized that I liked guys in 2011, I want to say, and that's when I actually like took that step into going down that path and like, "Hey, let me see what this is like". And so in that sense, when I say, like a long process, it was just a long process for me to decide, like, is this what you want? I'm really an indecisive person to begin with. But once my mom started making jokes like she would always call my partner now Justan. She would always call him my boyfriend, even when we were friends. Like they don't believe that we were friends at one point. But we were, we were best friends. I remember even hooking him up with guys. I was talking to another guy at the time. But I'm definitely happy I found him. We met at a young age, so it took us a little bit of growing up and stuff. But we did it. We're definitely not who we were four years ago, not even a year ago and stuff. And I wouldn't trade him for anyone. And I'm gay and I'm a proud gay black man, you know. MF: You talk about -- so you kind of made this decision. Well then what? Where did you go in the Lehigh Valley to meet people or was there a process for you sort of like, I'm going to the Stonewall or I'm going-- KJ: You know what's sad and I hate to say this cause I was supposed to go there like when they were about to close, but I never been to Stonewall. I've been to, I've been to other gay bars in the Lehigh Valley, but I never experience like Diamonz or Stonewall, never got to experience that. But I've gone to Philly to gay clubs and stuff. And when I first came out of the closet and I knew, like, this is what I want, I don't know who I want and when, but this is what I want. I went into a gay bar and it did take some adjustment of like getting hit on. I was always the one like doing that. That was me and initiating and stuff and it took you used to but one once I got out there and I met the community and stuff, I actually got to see how beautiful our gay community is. And people, some people don't they don't feel like it exists out here and stuff. But if you open up your eyes and go places, it does and you'll meet great friends. You'll be great friends. I met Justan's best friend. He's who I think of his name as all the world's great, great, great talent. And he was actually part of our nonprofit Change Now team, and he passed away last year. But before he passed away, I do think God, because we were we were just at the pride in New York. It was my first time out there, as well as I believe it was his first time out there and out of all of Justan's friends, like I'll tell you, I told him like that. That is that's a friend right there. And he was just free spirited. And you could just always call on him. And I just remember him being there for me when my mom passed away and stuff. He would literally just come in and sit on the couch, say if like Justan wasn't there and stuff just to make sure someone was in the house with me during that rough time and stuff. And I'll cherish his relationship forever. And I was he was truly, truly one of the most beautiful people you would ever meet from our community, I feel like. And he just comes to mind when I think about jumping out into the gay scene and stuff. And he would be shade -- he would be shady, but it was like a good sh -- His nickname with us was NeNe, we called him NeNe and he wasn't judgmental and stuff. Like he was one of Justan's friends that actually let me take the steps with Justan to see if I actually liked him, where his other friends -- I can always tell when Justan was hanging out with his friends cause whenever I saw him again he would have an attitude it's like "Well yeah you don't, you don't want to show me around". And I'm like "Oh, I you were with your friends" and stuff. Whereas Greg said, "Boy let him take his time cause he's a keeper". And I just remember him saying that, and he was just a great friend and never chose sides, even though he was Justan's best friend. He was just the best. And I could call him for anything. Anything. He comes to mind when I think about stepping out into the gay scene back then. I believe I was 21, 21, 22 around that time. Before then, I would always talk to guys on like dating apps and stuff not Grindr. I wasn't aware of the history of Grindr at that time, but just like Facebook, Instagram and a lot of the guys who I actually talked to, they were all like in New York, New Jersey, but I just had to make sure that it was what I wanted. And I just felt more secure with talking to someone who didn't live around me at the time. Maybe that was just so that I wasn't a labeled gay just right away. But I met some good guys and stuff, but little did I know the love of my life lived in the same town as me, it just took a little while. MF: How did you meet? KJ: Oh, we met on an app called Badoo. I don't even know if the app still works now. And, I mean I'll let him tell you what --, I can tell you from my perspective, he like, he didn't know if I -- because there were straight people on there, as well as lesbian, gay, and transgender. So he never knew what it was about. So you could always see who checks your profile every day. He would check my profile like multiple times a day. And I finally messaged him one day and I was like, "Are you even gonna say hi," and that's how it started. And we met. We met up one time to get to know each other in person and at the time he had a little situation, I had a situation. So we were like, honestly, best friends. You can say, I wasn't looking for a relationship. I guess I was looking more for a friend at that time, but it slowly developed into a relationship. And I hate to say this cause, it sounds prude of me and stuff, but he did ask me out about three times and I said no. And what made me finally say "Yes let me do this. Before I lose it", was he asked me out on Valentine's Day and I was like, "Oh, I don't know, I don't want to mess up our friendship". So he's like, "All right, I'm in than Valentine's Day with this guy in New York". I even took him to the bus stop to go. But I will say I was supposed to pick him up the end of that week, and I didn't do it because I was mad. He really went to New York. But it was like I delivered you. I took you to the thing. But, boy, did I make him walk home in the cold. It was so cold that night. And I literally he got off that bus and walked home. And then later on I saw him that night and he was like, "Well, what do you want to do"? And I was like, "Okay, we, we can try this out". And we then made it official. So yeah. And that's how that started, off a dating app. Uh huh, yeah. I'm trying to think what else? MF: We talked a little bit about -- I mean, I'm sure we'll talk more about Justan in quite a bit. But we talked about education. What happens to you sort of after you're sort of moving through school? What is your work life like? We talked a little bit about your dating life, like what's happening in terms of your work life. And then I'm hoping we could kind of move towards your organizational... KJ: Oh, yes. Okay. So my work life started when I was 16. I would help my mom, as well as my older sister, as we would all help with the bills and stuff. And I had a under-the-table, full time job, and then I had a part time job and I worked my butt off. I was 17, 16, turned 17, and I felt like working and stuff that helped ground me. I had to work for everything that I wanted down to like my car, my clothes on, my back and stuff. My mom did her best and she would make it happen, but it just felt better. Achieving it myself. So once I started working, I never stopped working. And honestly, I think the job that I'm currently at now, I just started there about almost seven years ago. That was like the first job where I only had one job. Because I was always working two jobs and I just always want to make sure my mom was good and she had a lot of health problems. Medicine's expensive. So if there was a way I can help, I helped. Until she was ready to sell the house, move into something smaller and stuff. And then that's when I moved on and got my own and stuff. But I always liked to make sure she was okay first. So I did -- I worked a lot. And then one of my jobs I'm thinking about, is it was actually with the school, well it was with Career Force? But what we would do is we would go up to the high school and do a lot and paint the walls and things of that sort. So it got me, it got me into realizing, "Hey, I really do like to garden," even though I grew up with a garden and all this is I really do eventually hope to have a big garden and stuff. And I learned lessons. I have a scar right here from a box cutter. And I remember telling my mom, she thought I was so weird, I wanted this to scar up. And I was just like, "I hope this scars up, I hope it scars". So when it did, it was awesome. Now I tell the kids, I got cut by a pirate and stuff. She came up the story, and I just ran with it. So but I would say I was a hard worker. Definitely a hard worker. And she instilled that in me. She was a hard worker. She worked until she shouldn't have been working and stuff. My mom was a hard worker. MF: So you worked at Career Force. But you had multiple jobs. KJ: Career Force. I worked for a carnival business. So I was one of those people who tried to get you to the play, their games and stuff. So I did that the summer going into my junior year. And now that I think about it, they were both full time jobs. I'm like, now that I think about it. Yeah. They were both full time jobs because it was everywhere in Pennsylvania. We would travel and do shows and stuff. And after that, after graduation, I had gotten a part time job at McDonald's and then a full time job at Sodexo in the hospital. And I did I did both of those jobs for a long time. A long time. I was just used to working, I guess. So it really didn't bother me. Plus, you got paid every week, so, even better. But usually any job that I start, I'm there for a good while. I would love to grow, and eventually. Once I left McDonald's, it's because I was moving up at Sodexo and stuff and then I just try and keep growing until there's no more growth. And then I try to just find more and try to find just -- I like to stay busy, I love to learn, I love to read. I just don't take that for granted. Stuff like that. I lost my train of thought. MF: I have a question. Did you move from Sodexo to the Hartford? Yes. KJ: Okay. Yeah. So how that worked was I was going for a promotion for supervisor at Sodexo, and they graciously gave it to someone else. But like the reasons for it, like, I didn't agree with it. It wasn't more towards like, work ethic and stuff, it was more towards like this person went for the position more times than you. So we're just going to give it to them, and we're gonna change their duties because they don't know how to work a computer. And I just --, well, one thing my mom always taught me was my worth, and I was just like, "I'm going to find another job". And they didn't believe me at first. But when I put that two weeks in, they were upset. But I learned a lot from them. I learned my customer service from them. I know I learned how to have a conversation with different people. I saw different people throughout the day. I walked all around the hospital and stuff. So I definitely and I make sure that each place that I go, I really don't have anything bad to say about them because they taught me something and I appreciate Sodexo for that time. And then I moved on to the Hartford doing auto insurance. And that's a great it's a great job. It's rewarding and stuff. I do see myself eventually going other places and stuff, but I'm happy with my life. I'm definitely happy with my life now. It took me a second to realize that, especially after losing my mom, Losing my mom just taught me because it was like so sudden. It just taught me that not, everything's promised and just be happy. And I think -- and I know we don't speak about it yet, but I think that's why we went official with Change Now. Instead of "Hey, we're going to go do a Thanksgiving meal at the men's shelter and stuff or we're going to drop [presents] off at the shelter". We started something I feel that is beautiful, Change Now, and it's just the beginning and I see us doing really big things with that. We have an awesome team and I see the change that we're making in the community. It may be small to other people, but those accomplishments are big to us. Really big. MF: Tell me the story of Change Now. I mean, it's so clear that your mother is an inspiration. KJ: Yes. MF: You know, for that work. But tell me how it came to be. What is its origin story? KJ: So with Change Now it just made sense after Justan did the protest -- And I'm probably jumping around here, but after Justan to the protests in June of 2020, about because of George Floyd. Later that night, it was like, "What are you going to do now?" Like, "Yeah, we can go on the streets, we can do these peaceful protests and stuff, but what's next?" And that's how we came about with the Black Lives Matter to Lehigh Valley page and then and then from that like to two weeks later we went official with Change Now and stuff because it was like we're already doing it out of our own pocket. Let's see if we can get help from the city to help us help these people. And it's just amazing what we accomplished so far with our team again. They're great. There's about eight of us. But we all work together. We have weekly meetings and stuff. We feed off of ideas and stuff. Everyone has a voice in our team. My partner and I like, yeah, we're the executive director and stuff. But that's a really -- that's just the title like we're a team. We can only keep this going and it's just about we and but with Change Now it seemed a little -- it feels sometimes a little competitive because there's a lot of other nonprofits in this community and a lot of great nonprofits in this community. But when -- or at least I feel, with great work sometimes comes drama and unnecessary drama. So I don't feel -- I really don't feel-- I'm trying to say this in a nice way. I don't feel like we're appreciated by other nonprofits besides the ones we collaborated with, like SELF!, they're a women's reentry program. And I just like, we're here to help people. That's what it's about. It's not about who's doing what or whose name or whose names. We're like, -- excuse my language, but I can give a damn if you know about Kevin Jefferson. Just know about Change and all of that. That's what I love. You don't have to put my name, just see my work. And but Change Now is our baby now. We had Change Now for about two years, I want to say. Yeah, Justan can quote me on that, but I want to say we had it officially for two years. Now, our last event that we just did was Humankind Day last month. And where we provide it like toys, summer toys and stuff to the community, they didn't even have to get out their cars. You literally just stayed in your car and went stations and station and you were provided with -- We would just ask how many kids? And we had buckets, bubbles, chalk, games. And I love doing that -- working on Change Now, is something that I can do around the clock, and I feel like I kind of never get tired from it because it's honestly something I enjoy doing. And at these events with speaking with members of the community and stuff, or even one of our programs. One of our big programs that we do is our Mercy Hotel stay, whether it be a domestic violence situation or someone homeless on the street, and it's going to snow and stuff. When 2020 happened, there was like maybe one warming station open. There wasn't a lot of places for homeless people to go. And we saw all that and we wanted to do something about it. And I would say that main program is one of our successful programs and it's still going to this day. We get calls when we're on vacation and stuff. Our job is never done. And we don't mind. We don't mind. I want to say, just in March, as we were driving to Atlanta for our sister's graduation, there was a situation of domestic violence situation. And we had to get that person into a room and stuff. And luckily everything can be done electronically. So even though we weren't here, we were still able to help. MF: Not everyone who will listen to this will know, like the mission of Change Now. So beyond that kind of origin story, could you say like what your primary mission is like? KJ: Yeah, right now, I would say I would say a big mission that we've been focusing on and have been and still are, are the unsheltered and getting them off the street and getting them into a program. So it's not like, "Hey, we're providing you with this three day room stay, but then you have to go out on the street". It's like, "No, let's try and get you into a shelter. And then from the shelter gets you into a program. I mean, I lived -- I lived there. So it can be done. It's just, it's something that you can't make people do. They have to want to do it. And it's sad. We have those cases where they're just looking for that stay for the three days and they're okay with going back on the street and stuff. But we want to -- our mission is to stop that and get as much people we can into shelters and then eventually some stable living. We also do resumé prep and job prep and stuff, where we meet with people and we help them work on their resumé and interview prep and stuff and down to even a thing, clothes. Even if we had to come out of our pocket and -- I wouldn't mind -- you're paying it forward, you're helping your neighbor, your community and stuff. it's just with having a united community and stuff. You have you have a family outside of family. And it's like when one struggles, we all struggle. And when I think about Change Now, I think about our mission and stuff. I, I just. I just want -- If it's just if it's just two people. Three people. It doesn't have to be a bunch, but just a handful of people to know that we actually helped get off the streets and changed their life. One girl I can think of right now, we got her into a hotel room, and she overheard the staff talking about hiring. So, she put it an application at just the hotel that she was staying at, she found down with her working for the hotel, they provided free room stay. So she works for the for the hotel doing the front desk, and her husband does maintenance. And literally, like when I go into the hotel, to get other people a room and stuff and I run into them and stuff. Just seeing how great they look, their spirit, their eyes, they're vibe. You can tell -- you can feel when someone's really down and out, and just to see how great they look, that lets me know like, "Hey, Change Now is really doing something," and I just appreciate moments like that. But as of our mission, it's just to get people off the streets right now, just to give people jobs right now. Let them know like, "Hey, yeah, you did these things in your past, but that's your past. Let's move forward. Let's change now". So that's just the mission that -- the legacy I hope to leave for my kids and stuff. MF: When you and Justan were talking about that, is that what you were imagining in that original conversation, this kind of organization with these wonderful, incredible gifts to our community, or has it passed, surpassed? KJ: Surpassed by far. I honestly couldn't imagine like it -- us accomplishing so much with Change Now, and just the friends that we've made with Change Now and stuff. I couldn't imagine not knowing them though. Enid and Luna come to mind, they're the one that's run SELF! Women's Reentry and they're our sisters we have gone to Puerto Rico with them. We have cried with them. We failed with them, we've succeeded with them and stuff. And I just couldn't imagine my life without them. And I couldn't imagine my life without Change Now. Even though my mom has humbled me, Change Now, also keeps me humble because it's like, you know, you don't see right away the things that are actually going on in the community until you actually get out there, day or night, and actually see what's really going on in the community and Change Now has helped humble me, my family, my sisters. My family, they're blown away with how much we have accomplished with Change Now, down to our toy drives. Before, I think I can only afford a present for a boy, a present for a girl, and I would give that to a shelter every year, whereas now it's -- my living room looks like Santa just threw up everywhere and stuff, everywhere. So it's just amazing to see that. And then to just have people who are like you, who run nonprofits, even if they don't run it, they're still in the community. It's nice to see people just like you still doing the work. It lets you know, like, hey, there are still decent people out here. And that just keeps us going. But I couldn't imagine, I -- it's not that I couldn't I just wouldn't have thought Change Now would be even as big as it is today. But it just makes me more excited to see how big it will be later down the line. Because these are just the job prep, the resume building, the Mercy Hotel stay. Those are just our programs right now. Eventually, I want to start a grant project where we provide grants to LGBTQ students, brown students, Latino students, white students. I just I would love to do that. Help these students out with these grants. And so that's a program that eventually down the line I would like to start as well as, like awareness, awareness to addiction. I have lost a lot of people to addiction, a lot of close family members ; my mom's best friends she's like my aunt, her son, he overdosed and passed away and that was about two years ago and still that phone call of her crying plays in my head and stuff. And she's going to retreat, she's going to program, she's getting better. But I just wish there were more programs out here that was more acknowledged that, hey, you have an addiction, hey, it's unhealthy, but let's get ypu healthy. Let's don't just forget about you, or knock you, or not trust you, because of your past actions. Let's get you better. And I just hope to have -- when I say all of this, I just hope to have more programs, more programs out there and stuff. And we'll all keep working for it. We won't stop. We won't stop. MF: Can I ask you a little bit about the structure Change Now, because I know you work a full time job and Justan works a full time job. How does the organization operate? Is it all volunteer or how do you keep it so successful, even when you're working full time? KJ: We have -- and I have to thank our team, we have a tight circle. A lot of our volunteers are actually people that I've been personally work with. So sometimes that's a hard time because it's like, you're working when I'm working, so I can't really utilize you. But I would say my partner, Justan, he's definitely, or has been way more flexible. Whereas he can jump on these phone calls and schedule these rooms, help these people and stuff. But we all work together and stuff. Where someone can't be, someone will be and stuff. And I even remember when I lost my mom, that was unexpected and stuff. And I wasn't in my right mind, but I still went out and delivered the Christmas presents to the kids. And I remember me and Justan crying because he's thinking about his grandma through this time. Because that was like his mother and all. I'm crying about my mom and stuff, but then we start laughing because they're like, Wow, we're delivering these presents and we're crying and stuff. But I remember my team through all of that, they picked up where I left off after I got that news and they got the job done. And it's challenging. It definitely is. There are times where I'm working and I'm talking with the customer and my cell phone's blowing up. The Change Now line is blowing up because someone needs help and stuff, but we make it work. Whether if I have to step away for like 5 minutes or, Justan has to take a quick run to the hotel or even to pick them up. We'll get it done. We get it done. And I'm not going to say it's easy, but it's definitely something that we get done. This is Change -- Chane Now is our baby, one of our babies. So yeah, it's a challenge. But having a great team who believes in the work that you're doing, they see -- sometimes I feel like they see more of the success than we do. But just having them by our side and just helping us with our baby and stuff, we're trusting them with our baby and stuff. And I couldn't ask for any anyone else. And the fact that like they're volunteers, like they're not looking for -- none of us, but they're not looking for a payment or nothing. They just see it. They just see our passion and they just help us with it. I couldn't ask for a better team. I couldn't. MF: Well, your baby is beautiful KJ: Thank you, but. MF: Can I ask -- so what is the relationship or is there a relationship between Change Now and then your work with Black Lives Matter Lehigh Valley, putting up the page--? KJ: We kept that separate, just because with nonprofits, you really don't want to get into politics and stuff and so we separated the two, but that didn't change our focus with the two. With the Black Lives Matters Lehigh Valley page, that page, like we do have a Change Now Facebook page, but the Black Lives Matter Lehigh Valley page is the page that is really active. There are families in the community reaching out, whether it be question for assistance or, hey, did you see this article and stuff, and you want to stay on top of it. You don't want to keep these people leaving this page. The page was developed to let our brown and Black community members know like, you're not alone, your voices do matter. We would deftly make sure to respond to every message just so whether they liked it or not and just so that they got a response like we hear you, and stuff. I will say with Black Lives Matter page, it was a little challenging at first, but you just gotta look past the arrogance of people. My partner has got death threats and stuff. People talking about his family. I mean, I've been called a cripple n****r and stuff, and. But we're not -- we don't have that page for that stuff. So I'm not even going to focus on what you're saying, I'm going to make sure that these articles go out. What's not in the news, what are -- what's going on in our community that's not talked about. That's why we developed the Black Lives Matter to Lehigh Valley page, and to let people know that like -- I feel like with the Black Lives Matter page, a lot of people get confused with the like, it gets decided like Justan is the black voice in the community and when he's actually not, we are all our voices matter. And it took a little while for some leaders in the community to understand that. But I still feel like they don't understand that. But, I will say, the Black Lives Matter page -- I don't know if you're aware of this, but we don't actually run that page anymore. Ashleigh Strange has been running the page for us and it didn't have to do with giving up. I have seen people write on Facebook about my partner Justan giving up on the page and stuff. And it wasn't that he gave up. He passed it along to the next generation, to our next young people who have more time, who's now running a full time job in a nonprofit and stuff. And we still do check in and stuff like hey, like, how's it going and stuff? But it gives us more free time of working with Change Now and just and just being a family at the same time. Juggling Change Now and Black Lives Matter was getting tough, even when we were in Allentown. There were like protest going on about Black lives and stuff and people just getting upset that Justan wasn't at these protests and stuff and they feel like because he ran the Black Lives Matter page, he should be there. And I could see where they're coming from when they're saying, but I want people to know that there are more Black people out here than the Black leaders who are known. And Justan will even say that, too. It's humbling to see he's honored for these things and stuff, but we're not the only black gay people out here. And I feel like it's more -- it's really important not only to get like Justan's view, my view, but get other people's view on these topics and stuff. Let's stop being scared, scared to say other people's names. Let's stop being scared to say what we want to say. But, Black Lives Matter Lehigh Valley, that was our baby. And that will always be our baby and stuff. But it was time to pass the baton, and I feel confident with the person who has been controlling it and she has been doing a wonderful job with it. And I know it's being taken care of and it's not turning into a for-profit page or something like that. MF: I know you've passed the baton on, but I have a question about that origin story for Black Lives Matter, Lehigh Valley. I guess my question comes from, you know, it's a national movement. I mean, we can hear about organizations in different sort of major cities. Why was it important to start Black Lives Matter in Lehigh Valley here in Allentown? Like, you know, what is the important for you of having a local organization that's also sort of connected to the national conversation? KJ: I feel like to better answer that question. I would say, to make sure that we're heard. I feel like there wasn't a place for us to really go to, whether as a Black man, let alone a Black gay man and stuff. There were these things happened in our community. I mean, like I told you earlier, I always fit the description starting at ten years old and stuff and I wasn't educated that that was wrong and stuff. I just knew. Just sit on the curb and listen to those and answer those questions that those police officers were asking me and stuff, whereas that's not okay. And there was nowhere, there was really nowhere to go like a website or a hall or something to go to and talk with people who were like minded just like you, who look like you and go through the same struggles and stuff and say like that, that's not right, that's not cool. There was another time -- and I always think about this time because this happened when I was an adult. But I'm -- and I'm gonna say their name, but I went to Ross over on Airport Road one time, me and my partner, and I like to wear jewelry and stuff. And I had this watch on. And I remember when we walked in the store, the cashiers and the security guards were looking at us and the security guard comes up to me and he's like, "Oh, I like your watch". So you're not thinking. I'm like, "Oh, yeah". So I show it to him and then he bring it here. He talks about how someone stole a watch from Ross, and they feel I met the description. And it was just like, if I had a Black Lives Matter page to bring that to, I think I would have got more stories that were like mine, something I can relate to. Hey, that shouldn't have been handled like that. They need to be educated and stuff, that not all black people look alike. And I just always -- that was one situation where it was like, I really wish I said something. Like, I didn't think about it when I was going through it. Once we got out of the store, it was like, no, that wasn't right, that that shouldn't have happened. And I feel with bringing Black Lives Matter to Lehigh Valley to their valley, that really taught some store owners and a lot of people, "Let me watch what I say," because we were getting messages where people were exposing -- A dentist got exposed, the doctor in the Lehigh Valley got exposed and we're getting messages from these doctors and stuff, these dentists, to please take this down because this is affecting their job. And it's like, well, maybe you shouldn't be racist. Maybe this would teach you. And I felt like the Black Lives Matter to the Lehigh Valley page gave us that voice, that courage to know that that's not okay. And I just I just hope down the line, that even after Ashleigh Strange, I just hope that it gets taken care of. And it's used for what it's for. It's not used to collect any money from anybody. It's mainly used to just let our brown and Black families know, like, you're not alone. Voice your opinion here. Tell us what happened here. And I just feel like taught a lot of people, especially in 2020, "Let me watch what I say, because words do matter". MF: Thank you for sharing about those two babies that you and Justan bore together. Can I ask, so you're working full time, you're building two organizations, you're in love. Are you engaged yet, when does the engagement happen? KJ: Yeah, I got engaged officially, last year in Puerto Rico -- in April of, we're in 20 --, in '21. We went to a rainforest -- now, when we were young, I'm not gonna lie, when we were younger, we did get engaged. But I'll tell you, we were young. I wasn't thinking about marriage at that time. So it kinda didn't feel right, if you ask me. Whereas when he proposed last year, we were in a rain forest, and it just felt right then. Like it was like, okay, I'm going to get married. So we're engaged. We hope to be married after buying a house at the end of this year, fingers crossed. And the wedding, you should see an invitation in October of next year. So kind of save the date for me. But yes, so we have been planning that. I'm realizing that opposites do attract, because I can have a small wedding and be fine with that. Whereas my partner, he looks like acrobats falling from the ceiling and stuff. And I'm just like I'd rather keep the money and save it for a travel trailer. I'm like, but I have to wait till we buy the house and after the wedding to get the travel trailer. So I'm waiting patiently, patiently. But I love to travel, and I want to do it while I'm still young. And I don't want to wait until I'm old to travel around the States and stuff. I want to do it now while I'm young. So yeah. MF: Do you have visions for the future? You have the marriage, the house, but are there other things that you're imagining, you know, for your life? KJ: For our life? I definitely imagine to eventually -- and I pray that one day Change Now is something so big that I can dedicate all of my time to.Instead of working a full time job and running a nonprofit. I would one day want to just focus on my nonprofit. But I know there's a lot of work to do before even that happens. But I hope we have an office one day, and I hope -- I would love a community center for kids to come to and play sports, learn how to swim, learn. Let's get some reading programs in here and stuff. That's one thing I feel like you don't see a lot, is these kids out here reading and stuff and even -- you don't even have to be a kid, you can be an adult. We'll teach you how to read. I just -- I want a lot and I know it's going to take time, but I hope within a few years Change Now has an office, a little community center and all of my attention. And like anyone else, to have the big, beautiful house, the marriage, I don't know -- we do go back and forth about either adopting or having another child. But right now, we have one going into 10th grade and we just had a graduate. So it's just like, okay, we're almost there, then it's us time. So we do go back and forth with it, but it's not something that I wouldn't say no to. I love family, and I had a big family, so I wouldn't mind adding another addition later down the line. I just want to make sure it feels right and it is right. This is someone who would look up to me as their protector, their teacher and stuff. And I definitely feel like my partner today would be the best father. And there's things that even he teaches me and it's just like, Wow. Did you just say that, it was so sexy? Can you say it again? But all jokes aside, I just -- he's a great father. And him and his children's mother, they're great at parenting, she's the best. I call her my baby mom. And she -- it's just a nice blended family, a nice, blended, educated family and even our kids they were, I feel like they were more excited that we got engaged than I was. And so it definitely felt right when we got engaged. MF: So can I ask you, what's it like to be, as you are right now, a dad with Justan and with--. KJ:. And I will say, our son, even though is a small case, he has autism. And I think when I first met him, I was like 21, 22, 22, became a stepdad and he had autism. And I only asked that question like, "do you have kids?" just to make conversation, I didn't expect him to say yes. But honestly, being a step-parent I felt like is what I was meant to do and stuff. That -- just as Justan's my best friend, my partner, the person I trust, it's the same for his daughter and son. That's my family right there, I give them my heart. They're always there to pick us up, even when they know that we're not 100%. It's nice that we can come home to them and stuff and them tell us their crazy stories, and they'll bring me back to when I was 18. And honestly, I honestly think that they're kind of better. At least what I know, like my step-daughter, she's really good at hiding things, I guess. But from what I've seen, though, they're great kids. My stepdaughter is -- she's going to go to college this upcoming year. She's going to be a freshman. And even their mom, their mom, she dropped out at early age because she had she was pregnant. I want to say it was 15. But she got her G.E.D. She moved up in her career and she bought a house. Just to see her do that and to see that is possible, you just, you just kind of want to -- you just got to work for it. I wouldn't trade them for the world. I wouldn't -- even my baby mom, I wouldn't trade her for the world. MF: Well, we're nearing the end of the interviews, but I want to ask you, is there anything that we missed that you thought, oh, I really want to talk about that. Anything that you wanted to sort of talk about at the end? KJ: I would just say, let's -- it's nice that we talked how Black Lives Matter, I'm a Black man. But let's talk about more LGBTQ issues going on in the community and let's just talk more about it. I feel like in our community, especially in the Black community, I really don't feel like our community is accepted. I feel like we're frowned upon in a lot of situations. It's like, if you're not a LGBTQ leader speaking about it, then it's not being spoke about, and you don't have to be gay, and transgender, or lesbian to stick up for someone in our community. So let's stop being afraid of having these conversations and let's just help one another. We have of a lot of transgenders even last year -- and I'm just going to say and I know that it was more than 20, but I can think of off of my head in 20 transgenders. It was even more than that died last year, and it wasn't really discussed. And that's also something that I want to bring to Change Now, just more just ways of helping those issues more and in our queer community and stuff. And another thing too is respecting pronouns. I think it's just not a conversation, it'ss just not for fun. It's for 2022, let's respect people's pronouns. And that's just what I would say. MF: I feel so grateful to have had the opportunity to talk with you. Thank you so much Kevin for taking the time. KJ: Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure. Honestly, I was excited. I could talk to you all day. Honestly. MF: Okay. All right. Let's do another around. Thank you again. Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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Kevin Jefferson, June 21, 2022
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Kevin Jefferson describes their early life in the Lehigh Valley, personal relationships and coming to terms with their sexuality, and their pivotal non-profit work with Black Lives Matter Lehigh Valley and Change Now.
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LGBT-34
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2022-06-21
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
Publisher
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Copyright remains with the interview subject and their heirs.