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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
An account of the resource
In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Liz Bradbury
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Alanna Berger and Blaise Liffick
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Viewer)
https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_07.xml
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5.4 July 28, 2020 Alanna Berger and Blaise Liffick, July 28, 2020 (audio only) PH40_07 01:32:29 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Alanna Berger and Blaise Liffick Liz Bradbury audio/avi BergerAlanna_20200728_FullAudio-Video.avi 1.0:|2243(5) 0 https://youtu.be/ZlP_cAVyt9Y YouTube audio 0 Interview Introductions BLAISE LIFFICK: B-L-A-I-S-E L-I-F- “F,” as in “Frank,” I-C-K.
 ; LIZ BRADBURY: Alanna, could you say your name once again, because I forgot to turn on the other backup audio recording? So, say that again and do that, so it’s on there.
 ; ALANNA BERGER: All right. Alanna A-L-A-N-N-A Berger B-E-R-G-E-R.
 ; LB: Great, and can you please share your birth dates?
 ; AB: 7-20-54.
 ; BL: 3-30-53. 0 104 Connections to LGBTQ+ Community LB: Okay. And how do you identify within the greater LGBTA community?
 ; AB: Allies.
 ; BL: Definitely.
 ; LB: Okay. And so, you don’t identify as LGBT part of the community, other than allies, so that’s great. And I want to say, since we’re talking about this -- because I’ve had other people who are part of the extended family of our community. So, explain why you are part of this community and why I see you as part of this community and your support of the community that you’ve done? I can see you’re wearing your t-shirts, so go ahead and mention that. (laughter) 0 250 Background on Silent Witness / Peacekeeping in Harrisburg
 ; LB: Could you also just briefly explain what Silent Witness did? Because that was such an important part, and somebody will look at this and they may not know that stuff.
 ; AB: Right. With Silent Witness Peacekeepers, we had originally gotten involved with the Silent Witnesses from the MCC Church in Harrisburg. And Westboro Baptist Church was coming to town and they needed help and Blaise and I ended up getting involved. We went through their training and it was at the showing of “Jim in Bold” at Penn State -- or at William Penn Museum, in Harrisburg. And it was such an amazing experience to be involved in that. [...] 0 670 Current Lives
 ; LB: I really appreciate it. So, one of the things we usually start out with is -- let me find my startup questions. Uh-oh, one, two, three. Here it is. Okay. So, you just recently moved, didn’t you? To a new place?
 ; AB: Yes
 ; BL: Yes.
 ; LB: Are you hating that or loving it?
 ; AB: Well, we’re --
 ; LB: Or something in between?
 ; BL: Mostly loving.
 ; LB: Good, good.
 ; AB: Yeah, it’s a brand-new house and so, we’re working out some of the kinks, but it’s in between two of our kids. 0 801 Communication in the COVID Era
 ; LB: Okay. Well, dogs matter because the animals really matter. Certainly true and I’ve talked to -- this is my fifteenth COVID interview and I did ten HIV/AIDS interviews for people who lived through the AIDS epidemic too. This was all crammed into this short amount of time, but the people have been vastly different, in terms of the people I’ve been talking to and I’ve just been talking to somebody who’s really alone, who really doesn’t even have a dog. So, it’s an interesting thing to have some people who have large numbers of people in their house and other people -- how different that is for them. So, are you communicating with your grandkids and your family and stuff online? Are you doing Zoom stuff with them or -- 0 1035 Passing the Time LB: Yeah, good. So, let me see here. Yeah, some of this stuff is -- now, you’re probably too existential for this. You are really thinking about the questions instead of people going “ahhh”. So, like I just talked to somebody who was 22, they just graduated, and they were so cavalier about everything. And this is a trans kid who just graduated from Moravian and is going into graduate school at Lehigh and had to leave Moravian at the end and, you know, went -- but their parents don’t support them. So, they couldn’t go home. So, they had to go into -- this is the interesting story. They had to go with a friend to her house, with her parents, in Massachusetts and this young person has been there for five [00:18:00] months with these people. [...] 0 1159 Dr. Rachel Levine So, what do you think about Rachel Levine? We want to talk to everybody about that, because we love Rachel Levine. 
 ; BL: You know, we love Rachel. She’s just terrific. And we’ve known her for quite some time.
 ; AB: Yeah, we met her -- because I was going back in my mind when I saw the question. We met her at a GSA summit. Do you remember those? That Louie Marvin had started. 0 1465 Dr. Levine as a Role Model/Hero BL: Well, the other thing I’d like to say about Doctor Levine is what a great role model she’s been for our daughter, Ashley. 
 ; LB: Oh, great.
 ; BL: You know, Ashley went -- her story has evolved over the last decade or so and I know that she has viewed Doctor Levine as her role model. And a really good one. And I know Ashley has greatly benefited from that a lot. 0 1586 Biggest Concern about the COVID Pandemic LB: [...] Yeah, I take a lot of time trying to explain that to people when I’m training, that this is just one of the worst things you can do. And in fact, I’ve had young trans people say that their names are even more important than the pronouns, it’s really the name is what I’ve had several people say. So, what’s your biggest concern about the pandemic? 0 1995 Making Health & ; Safety Decisions / Keeping Busy LB: [...] So, you’re staying in or are you going to the grocery store or are you just ordering stuff or what’s the deal?
 ; AB: We started off just ordering stuff online and then, you know, we started going to the six a.m. senior hour.
 ; LB: I understand that, yes.
 ; AB: Around here, it’s been fairly good, in terms of the stores we go to, people are wearing masks, they have the plastic up in front of everybody. And so, that helps with the confidence level. 0 2416 Other Frustrations with the COVID Pandemic LB: [...] Okay. I just want to say that I say this is my -- I’ve interviewed twenty-four people and every single one has said that their biggest annoyance and biggest anger is that people aren’t wearing masks and they’re not taking this seriously. Everyone has said that. So, universally, among the progressive people of the world, we all are just pissed off. Like, we had to go to a doctor’s appointment and every person we passed on the street -- because we hardly ever go out, we’ve only been out a couple of times. I realized that person’s wearing a mask, that person’s not wearing one, that’s all she said about every single person. It’s our thing. But what other kinds of frustrations or [00:41:00] fears -- but frustrations I think would be what you would say. And there’s been some small frustrations, I think, too. 0 2892 Virtual Learning
 ; BL: I had to do the second half of the last semester online. And it was tricky. And I know the students found it difficult. You know, this was not a format that most of them wanted and many of them found challenging. And particularly students with any kind of issues in terms of how they learn, et cetera. It’s extremely challenging. And boy, I’m so glad I got to retire at the end of the semester, but I feel terrible for my colleagues who I know are so frustrated about, you know, what they are being forced to do. And, I know that [00:49:00] my colleagues in your field, for instance, how in the world do you teach woodworking if you can’t be in a woodworking lab? 
 ; LB: Yeah, it can’t be done. 0 3152 Knowing Individuals with COVID LB: [...] So, that’s a terrible story about Ashley and had you known other people that have had it or have been --
 ; AB: Friends. The daughter of one of our friends was in New York. She was a chaplain and she came down with COVID and she was really sick for about a month.
 ; BL: But recovered, she totally recovered. 0 3422 Re-evaluating Educational Choices for Children AB: You know, and if [00:57:00] somebody lives in Montana, one hundred miles away from the nearest case of COVID, have at it. Open your school and go for it. In an area where, you know, you haven’t flattened the curve yet or it’s still kind of -- you know, I think it’s a big risk. My daughter’s school district has decided to start with online, virtual classrooms. And then reevaluate it every month.
 ; LB: That’s wise. 0 3557 Thoughts on the Black Lives Matter Movement LB: Sure, yeah. It’s a Legionnaires’ kind of thing. It could be. So, do you want to say anything about Black Lives Matter? Because I’m asking everybody about that. You know, we can’t talk about COVID without talking about that and without talking about politics because it’s the deal. 
 ; BL: It is one of the frustrations that we can’t be out on the street with them.
 ; LB: No kidding, no kidding. 0 4040 Importance of Fighting for Intersectionalities AB: Well, the other thing too is the intellectual level. While everybody in the country is up in arms about Black Lives Matter, the whole idea of intersectionality comes into play. Because while everybody’s yelling about this, Trump is taking away healthcare for LGBT people. You know, here’s where the news is focused, so, let’s take away these rights from LGBT people and put more kids in cages. And so, that whole divide and conquer thing. 
 ; BL: And misdirection. He’s good at that. 0 4434 Motivations for Documenting Oral Histories / Remarks for Future Viewers LB: Yeah, all right. So, one more thing that I hope that -- this archive project is really fascinating and we’re having a wonderful time with Muhlenberg [01:14:00] and Lehigh University working on this too. So, they’ve done a bunch of older LGBT people talking about all this stuff that happened. I often thought that all the stuff we did to pass all our ordinances nobody would know about that. And I’ve been talking about that a lot. And they transcribe it and it’s really terrific and it’s all searchable and you can get it in all the papers that we say, like, “Why are you doing this stuff?” And now, it’s all in the archives and all digitalized and, you know, all the Valley Gay Presses that I made, one of the things that happened was, I was talking to Kristen Leipert, who I’m actually working with now on these things that I’m doing, like last year. 0 5101 Closing Remarks
 ; LB: Good for you. Well, that’s a terrific note to end on. Thank you so much for saying that. Thank you so much for talking to me. You’ve been very inspirational. 
 ; BL: Thanks for asking us in.
 ; AB: Yeah, it’s amazing.
 ; BL: We’re very honored.
 ; AB: Yes, very honored and it’s wonderful seeing you again.
 ; LB: It’s great to see you too. I will give Trish a hug. I’m going to turn off the recorder now. Oh, whoops. Wait, oh no. 0 Sound Blaise Liffick and Alanna Berger talk about how the current COVID19 pandemic is affecting them. They talk about their recent move to be nearer to their adult children, Blaise’s retirement from teaching college, and how the end of the semester was remote learning. They discussed their many years of commitment to civil rights and the support of the LGBT community through the Silent Witness programs. They talked about the LGBT people in their family and how COVID-19 has affected their work and health from having the virus. Alanna Berger 2020-07-28 BLAISE LIFFICK: B-L-A-I-S-E L-I-F "F," as in "Frank," I-C-K. LIZ BRADBURY: Alanna, could you say your name once again, because I forgot to turn on the other backup audio recording? So, say that again and do that, so it's on there. ALANNA BERGER: All right. Alanna A-L-A-N-N-A Berger B-E-R-G-E-R. LB: Great, and can you please share your birth dates? AB: 7-20-54. BL: 3-30-53. LB: Okay. And you're in what town? AB: We are in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania. LB: Okay. So, this is the consent portion. Do you consent to this interview today? AB: Absolutely. BL: Yes. LB: Okay. And do you consent to having this interview be transcribed, digitalized and made publicly available online, in searchable format? BL: Yes. AB: Yes. LB: Do you consent to the LGBT archive using your interview for educational purposes and other -- in other formats, including films, articles, websites, presentations and other formats we may not even know about yet? BL: Yes. AB: Yes. LB: Do you understand that you will have thirty days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview, identify any parts you would like to delete and or withdraw from your interview and withdraw your interview from the project? AB: Yes. BL: Yes. LB: Great, can you tell me what your ZIP Code is? AB: 17055. LB: Now, they also want to know, even though you've already given your date of birth, what your ages are. It says -- AB: I'm sixty-six. BL: I'm sixty-seven. LB: Okay. And how do you identify within the greater LGBTA community? AB: Allies. BL: Definitely. LB: Okay. And so, you don't identify as LGBT part of the community, other than allies, so that's great. And I want to say, since we're talking about this -- because I've had other people who are part of the extended family of our community. So, explain why you are part of this community and why I see you as part of this community and your support of the community that you've done? I can see you're wearing your t-shirts, so go ahead and mention that. (laughter) AB: Well, as I was growing up, I've always known gays and lesbians. My father had a gay cousin. When I went away to school at the university of Maryland, as part of the women's center, I think it was half straight women, half lesbians. We had gay friends on campus. So, I've always known people, but it wasn't until the -- we got involved in with the Silent Witness in Harrisburg, that we really became advocates. And at that point, we became part of the Silent Witness and we changed it to Silent Witness Peacekeepers Alliance. But we also got involved with Advocacy, which is where we met you. Especially in the Freedom to Marry movement. And so, we felt it was really important for straight people to stand up and deal with homophobia, just like it's important for white people to stand up and deal with racism. And so, that's been part of our journey. It became a spiritual path in some respects with Silent Witnesses. And over the course of time, you know, we used to say, "Oh, well, we're straight, our kids are straight." You know, and now we have a daughter who identifies as bisexual and a daughter who is transgender. And we also have a daughter whose gender expression is more male. So, we've learned so much about the community. I now have a nephew who came out a few months ago. So, you know, and Blaise has a niece who came out. I mean, so -- LB: Yeah, you're in the thick of it. AB: Now, yeah -- BL: We have a lot of connections. LB: Could you also just briefly explain what Silent Witness did? Because that was such an important part, and somebody will look at this and they may not know that stuff. AB: Right. With Silent Witness Peacekeepers, we had originally gotten involved with the Silent Witnesses from the MCC Church in Harrisburg. And Westboro Baptist Church was coming to town and they needed help and Blaise and I ended up getting involved. We went through their training and it was at the showing of "Jim in Bold" at Penn State -- or at William Penn Museum, in Harrisburg. And it was such an amazing experience to be involved in that. And they kept asking us to help until we ended up helping in 2005 with a Pride Festival in Harrisburg and it was one of the worst days of my life to see such a large group of forty -- fifty protestors. And it was so awful, I had nightmares. And we decided we wanted to do something more than just stand there with signs. And so, we kind of went back to the drawing board and worked with the original Silent Witnesses. We came up with the strategy of upholding the rainbow umbrellas. And, you know, Blaise had the -- BL: Safety vests. AB: -- safety vests. And we changed the strategy of the counter-protestors to actively escorting people past the protestors. And that strategy was so effective. Within a couple years, people would say, "I never saw the protestors. Where were they?" Even though, when you look at the pictures, you can see their great, big signs behind our umbrellas. You know, it was still, you know, something that really made people feel safe. Just a couple weeks ago, I was on a Zoom call and somebody said, "Oh, and you have to know Alanna Berger. She created this group that back at Lehigh Valley Pride, when the protestors walked into the festival, she was there. And I felt safe." You know, this is so many years later and we still hear that. BL: Yeah, but our main job, of course, is to stand between the street preachers at LGBT events and prevent any kind of confrontations from happening, that would spoil the event. And, you know, we try actively to keep any kind of confrontation from happening, so that there aren't any arrests and that everybody has their right of free speech. And everybody can enjoy themselves at the festival. LB: I'm so glad you did that and it was an education for me as well and I think one of the things I really found out about it was, the biggest danger was not really -- the scary, bad people were bad, and the LGBT people, for the most part, could move through that, because we're used to it. But the straight people that were our allies wanted to confront the anti-people and the anti-people, we knew, had made a living from suing people who had physically confronted them. They would taunt them into a physical confrontation. And I think, you know, I've been -- this Reading Pride Festival which just happened, which I don't really know how that worked, but that was the first time I haven't been at any one of the Pride Festivals in Lehigh Valley or Reading Pride. I didn't even watch it. So, I forgot that it was on. But I've been at all the main Pride Festivals and the anti-presence dwindled out. And I think it was because of you. I think it really was effective to just quietly ignore them that it was really -- BL: We like to think that. LB: Well, I think it really -- BL: We're happy to take credit for some of that. LB: I will be happy to give you credit for that, because I absolutely think that the last thing these folks wanted was for people to ignore them. BL: Well, it was also important to us to be a symbol to the LGBT community. To stand up for them and to actually stand in front of these protestors and make it clear that we aren't going to accept what they had to say either, you know? Just because we were silent, didn't mean that we weren't sending an important message. LB: That's really good. BL: And that message was being LGBT is okay, you know? LB: Yeah, yeah, yeah. BL: And we were going to protect their rights as much or even more vociferously than we would the street preachers for their right and free speech and expression of religion. And that was one of the reasons we chose rainbow umbrellas to be a really large symbol. You know, something people can see from a distance and know that people are standing up for them. AB: Yeah, at the very beginning, we recruited straight people to help us because we felt members of the LGBT community should be able to enjoy the festival. They needed to be inside the festival and so, we've recruited straight people. I remember at one point I was giving a presentation to Common Roads Kids, prior to the Harrisburg Pride. And they asked me how I could do this work. And I said, "Well, I'm straight. What these guys say means nothing to me." I said, "If they were attacking Jews, I might feel differently." And then right after that, the Westboro Baptist Church started going after the Jewish community. And suddenly it was like, "Oh no." You know, so I think that's why I know it's important work, you know? LB: Yeah. AB: When I think about the Holocaust and it's like, "Well, they came for the gays first and then they came for the Jews." So, for me, I could not stand idly by in the blood of my neighbor. And I thought it was really important that we all have to stand up for each other and let us do the heavy work, while you all be in the festival and learn and network and, you know, see who all is there. We got all these resources together for the community, let us deal with the street preachers. LB: Yeah, well, you did a great job. Thank you very much for doing that. AB: You bet. LB: I really appreciate it. So, one of the things we usually start out with is -- let me find my startup questions. Uh-oh, one, two, three. Here it is. Okay. So, you just recently moved, didn't you? To a new place? AB: Yes BL: Yes. LB: Are you hating that or loving it? AB: Well, we're -- LB: Or something in between? BL: Mostly loving. LB: Good, good. AB: Yeah, it's a brand-new house and so, we're working out some of the kinks, but it's in between two of our kids. LB: Oh, well that's good. AB: And two of our kids with grandchildren. So, it was really wonderful at first, before COVID. Because we were getting to spend so much time with the grandkids. And, you know, so, that part's been really fun. Since COVID, we went through a period of isolation because my son-in-law had to go back to work. And my daughter's working from home. And they were afraid that -- you know, they didn't want to infect us. And Blaise's son is also working from home and -- but his boys spend time with their mom and his son didn't trust that they wouldn't do something. So, we haven't really been able to see them either. Yeah, the house is great. I mean, we've got all this extra time now to fix it up. BL: And one of the reasons we moved up here is I retired. And so, getting closer to the grandkids was a priority. We also wanted more of a townhouse situation, so there wasn't any yard to take care of. And they were building some new stuff, fairly near where our grandkids are, our kids and our grandkids. And so, that was the major emphasis. But we really like this area. LB: Oh, good. BL: It's worked out well for us in a lot of different ways. LB: Good. So, it's just you two in the place? BL: Yes. LB: Because I -- BL: Us and our dog, Brighid. LB: Okay. Well, dogs matter because the animals really matter. Certainly true and I've talked to -- this is my fifteenth COVID interview and I did ten HIV/AIDS interviews for people who lived through the AIDS epidemic too. This was all crammed into this short amount of time, but the people have been vastly different, in terms of the people I've been talking to and I've just been talking to somebody who's really alone, who really doesn't even have a dog. So, it's an interesting thing to have some people who have large numbers of people in their house and other people -- how different that is for them. So, are you communicating with your grandkids and your family and stuff online? Are you doing Zoom stuff with them or -- BL: Oh, yeah. AB: Yeah, we had a situation after the kids went to virtual learning -- after the grandkids went to virtual learning. I was Skyping with the grandsons, trying to help them with their homework, because mom was still -- you know, she was still working. And their dad wasn't home, so I would Skype, so that they could share their screens and I could see what they were looking at and I would help with their homework. And that was frustrating, but also fun. You know, because at one point, you know, I would say something to one of the boys and he'd say, "Yeah, I could do this faster, but I really like being on the phone with you." But one day, he just -- he was sitting there and then he just started staring out the window and tears were just rolling down his face. And he said, "I hate COVID. I may never see you again." And I started crying and Blaise started crying. And I called my daughter and I said, "You know, we've been isolated alone, separately, how do you feel about us coming over?" And so, we started going over, wearing masks and all that kind of stuff, for a while. And then we just kind of -- you know, things have improved in Cumberland County. So, I go over several times a week now, to see them. But yeah, that was -- we were having some Zoom chats with our kids. And then some other political things happened and we -- the kids don't agree with each other and so, we've kind of cut those down to just smaller -- because we have six kids. He had three, I had two and then we adopted Ashley. And so, you know, it's a large group of kids. And we just do them individually now. BL: But we also get together weekly with a group of friends. LB: Oh, that's great. BL: We have actually started doing that in person, once a month. And we've been doing that for, what? Two years? AB: Two years. BL: And then when this hit, we decided, "You know what? While, we're not going to do what we used to do once a month, we're going to get together on a weekly basis and just check in with everybody. Make sure everybody's okay and, you know, if there's anybody in need, we'll find a way to help." And we've continued that now. The group has dwindled own to just a core few. But I still feel it's important to have that face-to-face contact, if not, person-to-person. While talking to people on the phone is nice, seeing them is just better. LB: It is. BL: And it's been important for me to be able to see people and keep in touch with them that way. LB: Yeah, good. So, let me see here. Yeah, some of this stuff is -- now, you're probably too existential for this. You are really thinking about the questions instead of people going "ahhh". So, like I just talked to somebody who was 22, they just graduated, and they were so cavalier about everything. And this is a trans kid who just graduated from Moravian and is going into graduate school at Lehigh and had to leave Moravian at the end and, you know, went -- but their parents don't support them. So, they couldn't go home. So, they had to go into -- this is the interesting story. They had to go with a friend to her house, with her parents, in Massachusetts and this young person has been there for five months with these people. And I said, "Well, are they there now?" I was talking to him and he goes, "Well, they went on vacation and she had to go back to school." I said, "You're alone in the parents' house? Where are you?" And he said, "It's Hampton, Massachusetts. It's in the middle of the woods." I said, "Well, do you go out for walks?" He said, "No, there's bears." (laughter) And then I said, "What are you doing inside?" and he said, "You know, I'm doing this stuff." And he was so calm about everything. I thought, "Okay." And this is a tough situation, you know, in a lot of ways. He goes, "Well, my cat is here." You know, so, he was just -- I thought, "This is a person." You know, I guess maybe it's a little bit of the effect of being 22 and thinking, "I've got my whole life to forget about this." BL: Well, yeah, they're pretty resilient at that age. LB: Yeah, yeah. And for those of us who are old, we're thinking, like, "Am I ever going to stop being angry?" And I was just talking to a good friend, just the last person I spoke to, and she said, "I'm angry all the time. I was never like that before. I was pissed off all the time." So, I said, "Yeah, it's going to be hard to stop doing that, if we can ever stop doing that." So, you're not working. So, you don't have to be worrying about being laid off and that's a good thing. You have family around. So, what do you think about Rachel Levine? We want to talk to everybody about that, because we love Rachel Levine. BL: You know, we love Rachel. She's just terrific. And we've known her for quite some time. AB: Yeah, we met her -- because I was going back in my mind when I saw the question. We met her at a GSA summit. Do you remember those? That Louie Marvin had started. LB: Yeah, yeah. AB: And we met Doctor Levine and we were so blown away by her presentation. We went up afterwards, you know, stood there looking like groupies. And got her contact information. And she has been such a powerful resource, even way back when. You know, because Blaise had done the Safe Zone training. And would get trans kids and needed advice. I used her as a resource for the class I taught at Lebanon Valley College. And when I saw that she was appointed by Governor Wolf, I was like, "Oh, the best person ever." LB: Yeah, I know. I know, lucky. AB: And, you know, with COVID, I watch the news -- the broadcasts of Doctor Levine and Governor Wolf, just to see her. Because she is so calm. She is just grace under fire. And I am just -- wow. We would not be where we are today in Pennsylvania, if it wouldn't be for her. BL: I wish there was somebody nationally who had her depth of understanding and compassion. Doctor Fauci is great, but he doesn't get to say much anymore and -- LB: Right, well, that's the thing. BL: We really need that. The country really needs that. And so, I think Doctor Levine has been just tremendously helpful to this state and has done an extremely important service for us. Aside from all that, I think she's just a wonderful person all the way around. And I find her completely trustworthy. Just in anything that I've heard her say or read that she's said, that I question. And it's not that I will take everything she says as gospel, but, you know, it's pretty close to it. LB: Well, I think certainly we're in the position where, you know, we don't know anything about -- this is an illness that -- I just read an article in the New York Times that said it'll be, you know, thirty years before we really understand everything about this. But the thing you can count on from her is she's not making this stuff up. She's not just saying this stuff for political clout or this would sound good or Governor Wolf is telling her to say it, you know? BL: Yeah, well, politics doesn't have anything to do with it for her. LB: Right. BL: It's just science. AB: Exactly. BL: And, you know, thank God she's as brilliant as she is. You know, she understands this stuff and can present it to us in a way that is easy to understand. And it's such a shame what's happened to her in terms of the bully online, the trolls, as it were, that just won't get past their prejudice to listen to the science. LB: Right, it's true. AB: Yeah, but the fact that, you know, when she was first appointed, I thought, "Oh my gosh, you know, a trans woman." BL: Yeah, it was a brilliant appointment on the part of the governor. LB: Yes, it was very, very smart. And, you know, how terrific that there was someone with the kind of credentials that she had and the kind of extraordinary presence and calm. I mean, this is the person who, for the most part, is not really bothered by this crap that she has to endure. The worst thing about it is not that it's happening to her, it's that for the transgender population and for our particular transgender young people who are seeing it happen to her. And it scares them because they think, "If this could happen to her, then it could happen to me." And I think I've said to our other employees -- we have now, 14 employees at the center, and I've said, "One of the things we have to emphasize is that heroes have to take crap. They always do. You know, people who are major civil rights leaders, they don't just coast through. They always have crap and one of the reasons we admire them is because they can put up with -- if it was easy, everybody would do it, you know? We wouldn't get to admire those people. BL: Well, the other thing I'd like to say about Doctor Levine is what a great role model she's been for our daughter, Ashley. LB: Oh, great. BL: You know, Ashley went -- her story has evolved over the last decade or so and I know that she has viewed Doctor Levine as her role model. And a really good one. And I know Ashley has greatly benefited from that a lot. LB: Well, that's good. That's great to hear. (Inaudible). AB: Even when you talk about heroes, you know, at one point, the street preachers would focus on us, you know, and I was a faithless Jew and Blaise was Professor Yuck and Reverend Reprobate and, you know, they would focus on us and leave everybody else alone. And so, I think that might be part of the hero's role is to take some of that crap. BL: Be the lightning rod. LB: That's a good point. AB: I hate to see it happen to Rachel, though, because of what you said. With other, trans kids being afraid. Ashley has gone through a lot of trauma recently because of the trans people who were murdered. You know, I think there was three within a two-week period. LB: Yeah, it was horrible. AB: And that was just as traumatic for her as well. So, trans kids, the whole thing with dead naming is one of the reasons why we ended up adopting her, was because she was afraid that she would be buried under a marker that had her dead name on it. So, you know, it was one of the reasons, but it's one thing that when they dead name somebody, that just is so frustrating. Yeah. LB: Yeah, I take a lot of time trying to explain that to people when I'm training, that this is just one of the worst things you can do. And in fact, I've had young trans people say that their names are even more important than the pronouns, it's really the name is what I've had several people say. So, what's your biggest concern about the pandemic? BL: Well, mine generally is how many idiots there are out there who don't take this seriously and are going to keep it going as a consequence. And that it's already -- you know, if they had just paid attention in the early month, the first month when this was coming out and done the right thing then, we'd be done with it by now and schools could open this fall safely. And instead, we're taking a crapshoot with our kids' lives. You know, I understand the economics of having the schools closed and yet, the economics don't mean a damn thing to me if what we're trading is people's lives. And so, the fact that this is going to continue for probably at least another six months, if not a year, because these people would not pay attention and would not listen to the experts, would completely denigrate the science, is just really angering. And just drives me crazy. AB: Yeah, and I think that's one thing that maybe because of the work we did with Silent Witness Peacekeepers and the amount of research we put into the idea of, you know, civil liberties and freedom of speech and all that sort of thing, that it's not what people think it is. Yes, we have civil rights, but we also have civic responsibility. And people are completely ignoring that aspect of it. Like you said, in the New York Times, there was a great article on the cult of selfishness. LB: Right, I saw that, yeah. AB: And how people are just all about themselves. They're narcissistic that, you know, they feel that wearing a mask is their right or not wearing a mask. BL: That's oppression for Pete's sake! AB: Yeah, the oppression is just -- BL: You know, it makes no sense. And it disturbs me the number of people who are like that. LB: Yeah, that's true. AB: Yeah, the number of people I've taken off my Facebook list. LB: I know, it's just very depressing, isn't it? BL: Yeah. AB: Yeah. LB: It's so hard. AB: I've dropped friends who had idiots commenting on their Facebook posts because I don't want to see it on Facebook right now. It's just more than I can stand watching that. But I think also for me and bringing this back to the LGBT community, the fact that, for instance, all the Pride Festivals have been cancelled or postponed, you know, I think back to the early days. I think it was, like, 2006, there was some problems at Harrisburg Pride, the organization was falling apart. And one of the things Blaise said was, "We have to make sure the Pride Festival keeps going, because if we don't, the street preachers are going to take credit for it." LB: (laughs) AB: And it was -- BL: So, we ended up getting involved in the organization as well. AB: Yeah, I became vice president. LB: Oh my gosh. AB: And that's what I'm thinking this summer, that the protestors and the street preachers are going to claim victory, that it's God's wrath that all these Pride Festivals had to be cancelled. And it's not true and that upsets me, and I know how important it is for the community to be at a Pride Festival. You know, all these many years that we've gone to a Pride Festival and, you know, there are people who go to every Pride Festival, every weekend. I mean, they just travel around the country going to Pride Festivals and it's so important. A safe place for them to be and they are missing out this year. I can't wait for the virtual one from you guys. LB: Yeah, it's going to be on TV even, too. So, we don't have to worry about -- and frankly, it's already made, or it's put together for the most part. We're adding things into it. I'm not involved with that. But, you know, I've done my part of it. But we don't have to worry about the kind of depressing tech issues that could happen. Which is devastating in, I think, a lot of ways. And of course, I'm not that great at pop culture, because I'm kind of isolated, but there are actually people I know that are going to be at the -- you know, that are older people. Suzanne Westenhoefer, great, you know, we couldn't afford to have her otherwise. Holly Near is going to be at our thing. AB: I know. LB: But then all of our kids, they have no idea who either of these people are. But then they have this whole set of people that they know and RuPaul people and stuff. And it really is quite an exciting thing. It was also about twenty-five percent of our budget that we make from that. Well, we're doing okay with it. AB: Okay. So, let's put down donations to the Bradbury/Sullivan Center... LB: Oh, no, it's that and the gala and we had to postpone the gala to the spring. We hope that we can have it then. But, yeah, that was a big thing. And, you know, we employ 14 people. So, it's scary for Adrian to have all these wonderful people that have jobs and then think, "Okay. If you screw this up, Adrian, I can't eat." And that doesn't apply as much to me because I'm pretty much part-time. Well, I am part-time and, you know, I don't make that much money. But it's a lot of pressure, and plus, he's doing a lot of national stuff. You know, we've been on the lawsuits against Trump and stuff like that, for trans health and it's been a big deal. So, you're staying in or are you going to the grocery store or are you just ordering stuff or what's the deal? AB: We started off just ordering stuff online and then, you know, we started going to the six a.m. senior hour. LB: I understand that, yes. AB: Around here, it's been fairly good, in terms of the stores we go to, people are wearing masks, they have the plastic up in front of everybody. And so, that helps with the confidence level. BL: We've been slowly, you know, going out, just a little bit more. We're not eating out ; we don't go to bars anyway and that sort of thing. But grocery store and an occasional short trip of some sort to, you know, our local hobby store so that we can keep busy. LB: I know what you mean, yeah. BL: But we really have limited our excursions, severely. LB: Yeah, that's what you have to do. And so, what are your hobbies? AB: Blaise picked up -- BL: I've been doing woodworking. LB: You are? Because, you know, I'm a bigtime woodworker. BL: What's that? LB: I taught woodworking and furniture design in college? BL: Oh, did you really? LB: Yeah, I have a degree and a master's degree in woodworking. BL: Oh my gosh, well, now we know who to call. LB: I got every tool. BL: I'm just doing real amateur stuff. I'm hand carving wands and, like, wizard staffs. LB: Sure, I understand. BL: I've started trying to do figural carvings, but I'm such a novice at it, they're not very good. So, it's going to take a lot of practice. Of course, I got a lot of time now. So, that was the idea, you know, that this would be something to fill some time. AB: Yeah, and I knit. And so, I've been knitting up a storm in my spare time. And I've still actually -- I'm a Healing Touch Certified Practitioner. And I've still been able to see my clients virtually and doing distance healing. I have apprentices who are still -- you know, we just do Zoom. And I've still been able to do some of that, which was only part-time to begin with. But it seems to be keeping busy. There are many days where it's like I realize I've just spent two hours scrolling through Facebook. LB: I know, it's hard to not do it. And you keep wanting to find something good. You want to find something that's -- BL: Yeah, if only. LB: It's so hard. AB: So, we've started watching movies, our old favorites, you know? And the tragic thing is, as we're watching them, there's usually something that is poignant in a way that it hadn't been before. Like, we were watching O Brother, Where Art Thou? And I had forgotten about the scene with the Ku Klux Klan. You know, so, this is, like, post-Black Lives Matter, you know? LB: Yeah. AB: And it's like, "Oh." LB: No kidding, yeah. AB: Or we were watching The Princess Bride and Fezzik asks the Man in Black, "Why do you wear a mask?" "Well, I find it rather comfortable, I think we'll all be wearing them some day." LB: Oh, geez. Oh, man. AB: Okay, there's a quote. LB: No kidding. AB: So, there's something, you know -- really re-watch Xena, the whole scene and it was like, "Oh my gosh." You know, fighting warlords and it was like, "Yeah, that's what I feel like so often." LB: I know, yeah. AB: What would Xena do? LB: Yeah, we like -- AB: Get her chakram and cut their head off, you know? LB: No kidding. We like to watch British mysteries. So, we watch all the BBC stuff. BL: Yeah, we're into that. AB: That's next. LB: But here's the problem with that, and I have maintained that this is the case, there's one or two tiny exceptions, but if there's a queer character, they're going to die. They're going to be the person that gets killed or they're going to be the murderer. Almost always. And, you know, there's, like, one episode of Father Brown where that doesn't happen. I mean, I'm talking, we've seen everything for, you know, way back to the old -- it absolutely happens. AB: Well, and that was part of my class. Yeah, I mean, we talked about that in part of my class about how that was always the case, up until recently and even now, it's mostly lesbians getting killed off in shows. And, yeah, so, that part is also -- it's like the ensign fodder on Star Trek, you know? LB: Yeah, right. Ensign fodder, that's great. Now, we were watching Death in Paradise, which is actually a fun show to watch, and it's got a lot of people of color, and you know, it's beautiful and everybody seems pretty happy and it's all about Caribbean Islands and stuff. And it's pretty light-duty. It's not really -- there's not a lot of graphic violence in it. But we were watching it and then there was a character and I thought, "Well, he's gay, so, he's going to be the killer." Because the person was already dead. And then the main character comes in, and he's the detective and he says the person's name and he says, "Is not the killer." And it's that guy and he's the gay guy. They said he's not the killer and then he says, "But you're not really him and you are the killer." And I'm like, "Oh, the gay guy's the killer." I mean, I had hope and then it was gone. It was just gone. There is a few shows that have -- there is one that has -- the Ms. Fisher series has a lesbian character in it through the whole time and it's supposed to be at the time of World War I, so, it's interesting. But her girlfriend gets murdered and she's accused of being the killer. Often that's the other thing is that they're accused of being the killer. Once in a while they get off, but it's horrible. It's just horrible. It always happens. And we still watch them because we love that genre. But it's very tough. And you run out of stuff. Particularly if you binge it. You watch a whole bunch of this stuff. Star Trek: Voyager, we do like that. So, let's see, what else can I ask you here? We said that, we said that. So, you're staying in. Okay. I just want to say that I say this is my -- I've interviewed twenty-four people and every single one has said that their biggest annoyance and biggest anger is that people aren't wearing masks and they're not taking this seriously. Everyone has said that. So, universally, among the progressive people of the world, we all are just pissed off. Like, we had to go to a doctor's appointment and every person we passed on the street -- because we hardly ever go out, we've only been out a couple of times. I realized that person's wearing a mask, that person's not wearing one, that's all she said about every single person. It's our thing. But what other kinds of frustrations or fears -- but frustrations I think would be what you would say. And there's been some small frustrations, I think, too. BL: Yeah, I don't feel as active. And I know I could go out for a walk and of course the heat's been keeping us in lately. And I really should go out for a walk and I think what's keeping me from doing it is that first fear is that, "Who am I going to run into?" LB: It's true. BL: And, you know, am I actually going to be safe doing it? And intellectually, I know I am. But mentally, you know, I've gotten to the point now, where I'm afraid of people. You know, it's not logical. It's purely an emotional response, but you know, I've become very much a homebody. And that does worry me a little bit because my mother was agoraphobic and from the time she was younger than me, she rarely went out of the house. And I don't want to be that. You know, I don't want to fall into that trap, because it's important for our health that that doesn't happen, and we get out and do things. And so, I know I'm not moving enough. I hope it doesn't become such a habit because of this, that it becomes a lifelong habit from here on out. But frankly, I'm nervous of going out. LB: Me too. AB: Yeah, and I think I mentioned earlier about Ashley having COVID. LB: Yeah, so, let's talk about that. AB: And the frustration especially that she's feeling. Because she has expectations of the -- BL: Health providers. AB: -- health providers, that they are not meeting. And then she was originally sent to the E.R. because she's on estrogen because she's transgender and the doctor was as concerned about COVID as she was about a blood clot in her lungs, pulmonary embolism. And when they decided it was COVID based on -- you know, they ruled out the blood clots and they decided it was COVID, she was sent home because it wasn't that severe. And it took a couple of weeks for her to actually start feeling better, but now she's starting to show signs of having had a stroke and cannot get adequate help, cannot get her doctor to listen to her, to understand what she's going through. And I think there's a frustration that, you know, the healthcare system is so overwhelmed that how do they give individualized attention, when they're suddenly confronted with so many cases. And they don't know what to do about it. And you have somebody who has other conditions. They talk about other things like, "Okay, if you have high blood pressure and diabetes or some kind of lung compromised or all these other kinds of things." But who's looking at transgender people with COVID and what are their unique, you know, situations. And so, that's one of my biggest frustrations is that we've been able to stay healthy. I have gone into a couple of doctor's appointments. They were extremely cautious. They were specialists, you know? So, they weren't overwhelmed. They weren't part of the frontline. We cancelled dentist appointments because that's probably where Ashley got it. Her endodontist walked into the room without a mask on and so, that's probably where she got it. So, we did end up cancelling our dentist appointments. But we're okay there. That wasn't an emergency. But the frustration with the medical system, I think that's why I go to Doctor Levine, because I can trust her. I know what's going on. You know, too bad she can't be my doctor. LB: No kidding, yeah. AB: My conviction is, are we going to be able to trust medical professionals going forward? You know, assuming that they don't all die from COVID. That's kind of huge. Especially since we're transitioning to Medicare and that sort of thing. LB: No kidding. Yeah, we went to the doctor yesterday and it was the skin doctor. So, it was a specialist kind of situation. We both went because we both had stuff. We had to go, and we went into the waiting room and all the chairs were just piled up in the corner. There were no chairs and it was an odd look, you know? It was a thing that, you know, if we get past this, we'll never see that again. It was so bizarre. And the people were great, and we felt really safe, because they know how to clean things, you know? They're good at that. But it is true that Trish just had to go to the dentist, but the dentist was literally with a mask and a plastic thing and, you know, she looked like she could have wrapped her whole body with -- and Trish said, "You will not be scared if you have to go to the dentist. I've never seen anything so remote control as the people." So, yeah, that's the thing, because when you see somebody without a mask, it makes you agoraphobic. I can understand that. I have that feeling too. Like Adrian said, "Well, maybe we can open in September." And all I was thinking was, "I'm not going. I'm not going." I said, "I'm not going unless you can guarantee me that I'm not going to get it. I'm not doing it." And I do trainings to hundreds of people. And they were asking me to do one in September and I said, "Only if you can guarantee that a high-risk person could not be in any risk at all." Well, they can't do that. So, you know, I said, "I'll do a Zoom." It's actually easier to do these interviews. The only thing that's weird about it, and you may or may not have done this, that you have no idea whether there's anyone out there. I did a training of, like, two hundred people and I said, "Well, I hope -- and I got done at the end of 90 minutes and I said, "I hope it's actually still working and the power just hasn't gone off and I'm just talking to myself." But, you know, anyway. BL: I had to do the second half of the last semester online. And it was tricky. And I know the students found it difficult. You know, this was not a format that most of them wanted and many of them found challenging. And particularly students with any kind of issues in terms of how they learn, et cetera. It's extremely challenging. And boy, I'm so glad I got to retire at the end of the semester, but I feel terrible for my colleagues who I know are so frustrated about, you know, what they are being forced to do. And, I know that my colleagues in your field, for instance, how in the world do you teach woodworking if you can't be in a woodworking lab? LB: Yeah, it can't be done. BL: I know they're just trying their damnedest to figure out how to make it a worthwhile learning experience and they're just really frustrated. You know, my field, computer science, yeah, we can get away with it, for the most part. There are some things that I found really hard to present because it's such a non-dynamic medium. And in terms of the tools we have available right now. Now, I know that's going to change. You know, next year, there is going to be a lot of development for new products that will make teaching online easier and they're going to be good. So, that the next time, it won't be so awful. But boy, it has forever changed the face of education. Particularly at the university level -- college and university level. And this is going to have a huge impact on how that whole field works from now on. LB: It's pretty interesting, I've talked to a number of college professors, I think three so far, in this group, and they're all really different. Because some of them were already doing distanced learning classes and they were pretty set up for it and one of them I'm about to interview on Thursday, right from the minute it happened had to rewrite every single thing she did. Everything she did was discussion classes and there was all this presentation by the students and everything and she said, "I don't know how to do this. I don't even know how to use the tools." So, I know she pulled it off, but she's at East Stroudsburg. And she's going to be moving right into the semester right away and it's very hard. So, yeah, what a tricky thing to do. And then you didn't even have to walk at the graduation. You just waved. BL: Yeah, yeah. AB: Yeah, well, Blaise is a computer scientist. So, you know, already, he's technologically savvy, but, you know -- BL: That doesn't mean it was easy. LB: No kidding. AB: So, I feel bad for people who don't have a background in computer science. LB: Sure, well, anybody who has to rewrite a class in the middle of the class -- people don't understand how hard it is to get these things in place. I taught woodworking at State University of New York for the first part of my career and a different life. And it couldn't be done. You would have just shut it down. There's no way that you could -- it's like you can't take this stuff home to do as homework either. So, now, ceramics people gave people clay and told them to take it home and that happened at Cedar Crest apparently, that they just said, "Here's a whole bunch of clay, make stuff." What a strange thing to do, really, because that doesn't really work. You know, you can't really do it that way. So, it's sort of a fake thing. So, that's a terrible story about Ashley and had you known other people that have had it or have been -- AB: Friends. The daughter of one of our friends was in New York. She was a chaplain and she came down with COVID and she was really sick for about a month. BL: But recovered, she totally recovered. AB: Seems to be recovered and another friend who had moved to New York also recovered. She was really sick for about two months, was not hospitalized, but just took a very long time to recover. But also, you know, so, we haven't really known anybody personally who died from it. One of his daughters works in a nursing facility in Baltimore -- outside of Baltimore and she's been really lucky. One employee tested positive, but showed no symptoms. And nobody in their facility had COVID, at least as of right now. So, that was, you know, pretty lucky. And my nephew works in Country Meadows with people in the dementia unit. LB: Oh, golly. AB: He said, you know, as much as he complains about having to wear a mask and shield and all the protective gear, he said, "We still don't have a case." LB: Wow. AB: So, we've been probably among the lucky ones in regard to that. LB: There's a facility in Allentown -- outside of Allentown. It's something Gardens, I think. And Steve Ziminsky was telling me that his former roommate is there now, and he has a pretty serious heart condition, so he can't do very much. Not very old, he's in his 60s. And they had one hundred people who tested positive. BL: Oh my. LB: And it's not a very big facility, including him. Including this guy. And I don't know how many deaths they had. I don't think they were telling. But one hundred people and a lot of them were a significant numbers of care workers too. So, that's a lot of stuff. So -- BL: That's a very high-density situation. AB: Right. LB: Yeah, and -- BL: You know, once it gets introduced, it's going to spread like crazy. LB: Sure. Well, I have a friend who is a pediatrician and she actually had it and was very, very sick, but she said that, you know, the parents have said, "Well, do you think it's okay for my kid to go to daycare?" And she said, "Has your kid ever gone to daycare and not gotten sick from something that -- you know, they're going to get it. They're going to get it." And so, I just read an article in the New York Times today that said -- and I don't know if I believe this, but that younger kids don't seem to be as likely to get it. Particularly children under five. And it's even possibly because when they cough and sneeze, when they're around other five-year-olds, they don't spew out as much as we do when we sneeze, as big as adults do. It seems unrealistic to me. It seems like an unrealistic thing. There's some other factors that have to do with receptors in little children's bodies that aren't as big, I guess, and they're not as likely to latch onto viruses. But it's not like kids don't get the flu. So, I don't know what that's about. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Go ahead. AB: And looking at the data, you know, because they keep pointing to data from Germany and, I don't know, Sweden and Israel and, you know, it's like, "Oh, they had no problem." They also didn't have the same number of cases that we have. Israel did have problems opening with COVID and the kids. And I think it's -- yeah, they may not be getting COVID, but whether or not they spread it, whether they can carry it home is another thing that we don't know. LB: Right, we don't know. That's really the thing. AB: You know, and if somebody lives in Montana, one hundred miles away from the nearest case of COVID, have at it. Open your school and go for it. In an area where, you know, you haven't flattened the curve yet or it's still kind of -- you know, I think it's a big risk. My daughter's school district has decided to start with online, virtual classrooms. And then reevaluate it every month. LB: That's wise. AB: His son's youngest is going to be going to school, but he has learning disabilities. And those are the kids they're bringing back and they're going to -- BL: In a hybrid. AB: In a hybrid system. I think two days a week, appropriately distanced and all that kind of stuff, to see how they do. Because they're the ones who are really suffering from the virtual classroom. So, yeah, I don't know, it's kind of -- you know, do I want to risk my grandkids for an experiment? LB: No kidding. Yeah, you know, I was talking to Steve Ziminksy, he was a school -- he was a music teacher in Allentown School District for many, many years. And he was telling me about things that I hadn't thought of and one of them is that a lot of Allentown schools are not air conditioned. So, what they do is, if it's really hot, they take the kids that are in the hottest rooms and they put them all down in one big, air-conditioned room, like the auditorium. Well, that's not an option. And he said, "How are they going to do that? What are they going to do when it's ninety degrees on September, you know, fifteenth?" Well, tough luck kids. Some of you get to be in air conditioning. AB: That could have been factored into my daughter's school situation because they don't have air conditioning in their elementary schools. That could have been a factor in their decision not to bring the kids back. But air conditioning is still -- LB: Yeah, if you don't have filters. AB: If the air conditioning works, that could spread it through the whole school. LB: Sure, yeah. It's a Legionnaires' kind of thing. It could be. So, do you want to say anything about Black Lives Matter? Because I'm asking everybody about that. You know, we can't talk about COVID without talking about that and without talking about politics because it's the deal. BL: It is one of the frustrations that we can't be out on the street with them. LB: No kidding, no kidding. BL: I mean, it's driving me nuts that I can't go downtown and help. Alanna and I and I'm sure you as well, since we were teenagers have been fighting for equal rights. It's frustrating, first of all, that we still have to do it. But, you know, after fifty years. But still, that's our first instinct is to go out and, you know, hold signs ourselves and protest. You know, there's no question in my mind that this can be a watershed moment. Whether it's going to be a positive one or a negative one is yet to be seen. I think the current administration is doing everything they can possibly do to make this as bad as it can possibly get. They are taking the exact wrong approach and clearly making things worse, rather than any attempt to make them better. You know, it is so easy to demonstrate that black folks and others of color are so oppressed, and they have been for four hundred years. And while the oppression is somewhat subtler these days, it's still there. And we have got to get past that, or we will never reach the potential that this country could reach. AB: You know, I actually lived in North Carolina when I was younger, and it was a really difficult time. My father was invited to join the Ku Klux Klan. And they apparently didn't realize he was Jewish. We had black maids and watching that and participating in that oppression. You know, the signs that said, "Colored only," or "Whites only." You know, growing up with that was painful. And then, you know, coming back to the north -- because we were damn Yankees down there, but then coming back to the north and the race riots in the high school where I was at, you know, in the seventies. And then, you know, fast forward to -- it was about the same time we started the Freedom to Marry work. We also got involved in anti-racism work. And so, that was around 2004. I know the people we were doing it with just didn't understand the anti-racism. "I'm not racist" kind of thing. And I had worked and collectively owned and operated an anti-profit community restaurant, a Kosher restaurant, in the seventies. And it was like, that went off for me. We were anti-profit. We weren't non-profit. We were against the machinery that made money on food. You know, that made such outrageous profits on food. And so, for me, suddenly that made sense to me. And it's like, to be anti-racist means you are against the system. And it took me even longer to figure out what those systems were. And as an individual, they are so hard to deconstruct. You know, there's nothing I can do as an individual about the property taxes that cause people of color to be isolated in poor school districts. And so, understanding that and explaining that to people -- and that's what actually has caused the civil war in our own family is that some of them -- "But I'm not racist." It's like, "That's not the point." And trying to explain that to people who don't want to hear it, you know? "Well, how can you tell me that I've benefited from white privilege? I have no money, you know, I have all these problems. How can you say I benefited from white privilege?" "Well, let me walk you through some of the exercises." Because we have done a lot of work and it's so distressing to be fifty years from Reverend Doctor Martin Luther King Junior and say, "Oh my gosh, you know, we are no farther, except that so many people are paying attention now." LB: It's true. AB: Almost every company that I do online business with has sent me emails, outlining specifically what they are doing to educate their employees. They're donating to the right organizations, they are setting up, you know -- BL: Well, they're strengthening their policies. AB: Yeah, but they're also setting up opportunities for young people of color, so that they can, you know, be mentored and get skills and things like that. So, beyond the protests, I feel like there is hope that this time, we're going to make it work. And the continuing protests hopefully will hold people's feet to the fire. So, it's -- BL: It's all we can hope for. AB: Yeah, we can't let our guard down. LB: No, that's for sure. BL: But it's real frustrating that we can't be more actively involved. LB: No kidding. And we had this thing in Allentown, I don't know if you know that whole thing that happened in Allentown where the person was arrested for being sick and then kneeling on his head. And, you know, it happened five blocks from this window that I'm looking at and I couldn't go to it. And Adrian was there. He actually was there at midnight and he texted me and he said, "This is happening." And I know he did that because he wanted to know if I wanted to come over. I mean, I was just down the street and I said to Trish -- and then they had another protest the next night. And I said, "I think we should go to this." And the look on her face, because she's very, very at risk. And she's worried about me. And I had very severe lung issues when I was a teenager, so, I don't know, you know, whether that would affect me or not. I've been breathing wood dust my entire life too. So, I don't know, but she's really, really at risk and she has lupus and a lung disease and all sorts of stuff. So, I really deliberated and then I looked at the pictures. I could see the thing that was happening. It was live. And I could see these kids and they were chanting and yelling without masks on. Not a lot of them, but a couple of them. And I thought, "I can't do it. I can't do it." BL: You know, it's -- LB: All I have to do is be right next to somebody who's shouting out and I understand that passion. I understand why they want to chant and yell and stuff like that. But -- BL: Yeah, really want to be there. It's tearing us apart that we can't participate. LB: I understand it. I understand. Wow, it's very tough. And -- AB: Well, the other thing too is the intellectual level. While everybody in the country is up in arms about Black Lives Matter, the whole idea of intersectionality comes into play. Because while everybody's yelling about this, Trump is taking away healthcare for LGBT people. You know, here's where the news is focused, so, let's take away these rights from LGBT people and put more kids in cages. And so, that whole divide and conquer thing. BL: And misdirection. He's good at that. AB: Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I'm hopefully more than anything. That's where I have hope is that we are going to actually start doing things. And if we can get a lot of these old white men out of office, you know, and I hate to say -- I don't want to limit it to Republicans, because I'm not sure the old, white Democrats are doing much better. Their hearts are in the right place, but they don't have the fire. But that whole notion of this patriarchal, you know, daddy thing. That daddy knows best and he's punishing the kids and, you know, mom has to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen and, you know, that is -- we got to stop that somehow. And, you know, I'm kind of on the fence with AOC. You know, her recent preaching was just brilliant. LB: It was brilliant. It was totally brilliant. And Trish was playing it and she goes, "Sit down and listen to this." And I said, "Okay. That was brilliant." And every single person that I know that listened to it said, "Okay. That was brilliant." And, you know, even the criticism didn't make any sense, you know? BL: Right. AB: Right. LB: Well, she shouldn't be talking out. And that's the biggest danger I think, is when we have people that say, in sort of the guise of, "Well, you have to be able to -- I mean, everybody needs to be calm and self-care and stuff like that, but don't push self-care so far that you're not doing anything, you know? That you're not speaking out and that you just accept this. That you accept things and that things happen for a reason." Yeah, because there's racists. Well, we're going to change it, you know? They happen for a reason that's stupid. So, let's fix that reason. But it's very tough. I think it's very tough right now for people like us too, because we're -- BL: It also seems like we're at a period of history where a lot of confluences are coming together. And I do have a little bit of hope that, in fact, this is going to bleed over into the election and beyond. And have enough momentum to actually carry us forward, rather than backwards. I'm not entirely optimistic about it, but I've got that sort of hidden hope that, you know, there's going to be such a backlash from all of this nonsense, that we are in fact going to make progress this time. But, you know, we've kind of felt that way before. You know, when we got us out of Vietnam we thought, "Oh yeah, you know, we're going to beat the, you know, industrial complex." AB: The military industrial complex. BL: The military industrial complex. AB: We got Nixon impeached, yes. LB: I know, it's like this. BL: Yeah, and that we're going to start taking care of people. Well, didn't quite happen, did it? So, you know, I'm cautiously optimistic in that respect. I do have kind of good feelings about this next election that we are in fact going to be able to make some massive changes. But boy, do we got to get out -- LB: Yeah, I tell you, the thing that is most positive for me was seeing that a lot of the Black Lives Matters protests and the people who were protesting within this, it's very energy-charged and a lot of them were young people. And the young people vote is what brought us to Obama. And which did not bring us to Hillary Clinton because there wasn't that college student vote. And right now, college students are really pissed off. And they need to understand that it doesn't have to be this way and even their college loan things and stuff and the plans that -- it is true that the plans -- the Biden campaign has some very good steps that are probably from Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, for paying off student loans and stuff. Which these young people have to recognize is this has to be done, and it's not even that much money. I mean, really, in the grand scheme of things, it helps them to be able to have more disposable income, which kind of takes care of taxes and stuff. And it ends up balancing it out. So, that -- BL: My two big agenda items are that and the universal healthcare. LB: That's true. BL: If we don't get universal healthcare passed, we are just never going to get anywhere. I really think that the whole medical system is a disaster. You know, it started when they started deregulating it and allowing it to make profit, et cetera. And it's real easy to show all the other countries that have universal healthcare, how much better their societies are. How much better protection everybody has. LB: And the direct relationship of COVID's proliferation, because people didn't have healthcare and because they were sick, they couldn't take days off and you know how that continued to happen. Yeah. BL: Well, anyway, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that we're going to have a big year. LB: I hope so. I hope so as well. BL: God help us if we don't. LB: Yeah, all right. So, one more thing that I hope that -- this archive project is really fascinating and we're having a wonderful time with Muhlenberg and Lehigh University working on this too. So, they've done a bunch of older LGBT people talking about all this stuff that happened. I often thought that all the stuff we did to pass all our ordinances nobody would know about that. And I've been talking about that a lot. And they transcribe it and it's really terrific and it's all searchable and you can get it in all the papers that we say, like, "Why are you doing this stuff?" And now, it's all in the archives and all digitalized and, you know, all the Valley Gay Presses that I made, one of the things that happened was, I was talking to Kristen Leipert, who I'm actually working with now on these things that I'm doing, like last year. And I was talking about the LGBT March on Washington in 1993. And I said, "Well, Trish and I went together to that and we've been together for several years. About six years by the time we went to that." And then I said, "We both were at the 1987 march, but we weren't together there." And Kristen goes, "Yeah, I know." And I said, "How do you know that?" And she said, "Because I read all the papers as I digitalized them, and I read all the stories and I know everything about your life. (laughter) Great, somebody does. So, she said that she knows everything. And then she'll says things like, "I found this video of the first Pride Festival. Who can you identify in the thing?" So, I'd watch the whole two-and-a-half-hour thing and I said, "Well, there's me way in the back." Because they only did the front. They only videotaped the front and I named a lot of people that were there and stuff. And it was very interesting to see, you know, I think all those people look the same as they do now, even though it was, you know, twenty-seven years ago and I'm the same. I still have those pants, you know, that kind of stuff. (laughter) Which always happens to me. I actually said, like, "Is that me? Oh yeah, I remember those pants." (laughter) But the whole thing has been very terrific and one of the things I hope and one of the reasons for this is to collect information from people who are talking about what's happening now, so people in the future can look back at this and say, "These are real people and how this was affecting them." And we don't have that for the flu epidemic of 1918, when my grandmother died. My grandmother died of the flu in 1918. So, what do you want to say to people thirty years from now or forty years from now or fifty years? BL: I hope life is better. LB: Just a soundbite. A soundbite. AB: Yeah, you know, a young person called me about the Defund the Police Movement and, you know, she had a questionnaire and we walked through the questionnaire and I talked about how I've been doing this work for 50 years and I really thought it would be solved by now. You know, when I was a teenager, I thought this would all be a thing of the past and it's not. And I go back and forth between anger and despair. And the one day I was talking to my grandson and he wanted to know about history. And so, you know, we were talking about history and he said, "Well, I'm really afraid the world's going to fall apart." He said, "This anti-racism work," he said, "I need to get involved in that." He's nine. "I need to get involved in that anti-racism work." He said, "I feel bad that I can't save the world." And it was like, "Oh my gosh, that's how I feel. And I said to him, "You know, I often feel like that, but what got me through was the idea of think globally, act locally. Change your own little part of the world." And, you know, I raised my kids to be, you know, anti-racist. And, you know, my daughter married a black man and our son married a Vietnamese refugee. We have a transgender daughter. And so, we've got this conglomeration of culture and ethnicity in our own little family. And so, they don't care about skin color and things like that. And we started Silent Witness Peacekeepers, you know? LB: Right. AB: And we created that in our own little part of the world, and we made such a difference. And so, if everybody does that, if everybody does their part, then maybe we will change the world. And that's what I told the young woman. I said, "I don't want to make any assumptions. You sound like you're young." I said, "We thought we were going to turn over this utopia to you guys and you still have to do the work. And you know, we're here to help. We can't be out there anymore marching, but we're more than willing to support you in the ways that we can." And so, if somebody is watching this thirty years from now and the world is a much better place, yay. BL: Yay. AB: If not, you know what? Ask -- BL: Sorry about that. AB: Yeah, because we're more than happy to, you know, listen when they complain and give them advice if they need it and do whatever we need to do. BL: Yeah, obviously, we've always felt it's incumbent on all of us to take positive steps toward a better future. And not just complain. But, you know, take an active role, as much as you can. You know, not everybody has to be out there on the street. But as much as you possibly can to support that movement forward. I hope to God it's better thirty years from now. And if it isn't, we're sorry. We're doing everything that we can think of to do. I'd like to think that the last three years or so in particular, have been an aberration that doesn't get repeated. Unfortunately, I also know from history and looking back thirty years in the past, what they did then that has continuing repercussions now, in a negative way. And I hope that the steps we're taking now lead to more positive than negative. And by the time thirty years from now -- you know, universal healthcare in particular, I think, if that hasn't become a reality, I just don't have any hope for the country at all. If they haven't done more to make reparations for the centuries of oppression of people of color, I don't have any hope for this country. AB: Or the indigenous people. BL: Yes, them as well. As a country, we have to own what it cost other people to make it what so many people think of as the greatest country in the world. Yeah, we're not the greatest in many, many ways. AB: No, right now we're the third world banana republic. LB: No kidding. BL: I think the ideals of the country are wonderful, you know, the phrase that all men are created equal is probably one of the greatest phrases ever written. And yet, even at the time it was written, they didn't mean it. LB: It wasn't true, yeah. BL: We have to mean it. And if another thirty years goes by and we haven't made great strides in meaning it in this country, then I'd say the experiment's a failure. But I'm hoping that's not going to be the case. Obviously, I'm trying to do whatever I can. And we all are, in this family for sure, trying to do what we can to live up to those ideals. And to make sure that nobody feels like they're on the outside. AB: And that's assuming we haven't fried the earth. LB: And then there's that. BL: Yeah. AB: Yeah, I remember being part of the first Earth Day. LB: Me too. AB: I was in high school. We formed the Clean Earth Association and we got permission to have an assembly. And, you know, we were out there educating in 1970. You know, and I started habits back then. Like turning off the water when I brushed my teeth. And every time I do that, I think I've been doing this since 1970. LB: Well, we're doing what we can do. We've got a history of doing what we can do. And we do have to recognize that, you know, if you look back to the 1950s, it's pretty much a sucky time. You know, the McCarthy Era and rampant Jim Crow and, you know, pre-Martin Luther King. And the beginnings of the Vietnam War and witch hunts and terrible government. And certainly, the incarceration of LGBT people. BL: Yeah, one of the things I've always said to Alanna is, particularly when we were working on the issue of same-sex marriage, was I'd like to keep Susan B. Anthony in mind. She worked her entire adult life, into her nineties, trying to get them the vote for women and it didn't happen in her lifetime. But it did happen. LB: Yeah, it's true. BL: And, you know, what's to say, you know -- I can't even think of the saying that I want to project at this point. But, you know, just because it's not going to be effective in our lifetime, doesn't mean we are free from the responsibility of trying to make it happen in our lifetime. LB: That's true. BL: And that's something that I've always lived by, that I've tried to pass on to my children and obviously we're trying to pass it on to our grandkids. AB: Yeah, the ethics of the fathers. You may not finish the work in your lifetime, but neither are you free to desist from it. BL: I knew she'd know the quote. LB: Good for you. Well, that's a terrific note to end on. Thank you so much for saying that. Thank you so much for talking to me. You've been very inspirational. BL: Thanks for asking us in. AB: Yeah, it's amazing. BL: We're very honored. AB: Yes, very honored and it's wonderful seeing you again. LB: It's great to see you too. I will give Trish a hug. I'm going to turn off the recorder now. Oh, whoops. Wait, oh no. BL: Don't tell me you didn't record it. LB: So, I just did this entire recording with forgetting to do the video of this. But I did do the audio. Thank goodness. I missed Blaise Liffick and the wonderful Alanna Berger. Both of them from Silent Witness talking about brilliant things. We have the entire audio recording. They will make the transcript from this. So, there will be a written transcript from this as well. Oh, does this suck big. I'm very, very sorry. Maybe I'll come back to you, because everything you said was brilliant. Maybe when you go, you'll go, "Oh, I forgot to say this thing." (laughter) BL: Anytime, Liz. LB: Oh, no, not anytime. This is so tough for you to do this. But you did a wonderful job and I really, really appreciate it. I can't believe I didn't do that. I even looked at the thing and said, "Is the thing on?" But the red light wasn't on. What a fool. Well, I've only done that -- this is the first time I've done that in all of these. But I did get the audio. But luckily, I said, "Oh, I don't have the audio on. Let me turn it on." So, that was good. I might have to come back and do you again. Maybe next week. BL: We could sit and read the transcript, how's that? LB: You could, maybe. Maybe do that. (laughter) No, that would be wrong. That wouldn't be good. Well, think about -- I think that the things that you said were brilliant and I did get all of the audio of it. And I'm so terribly sorry that I messed this up. BL: Oh, it's fine. LB: I can't believe it. AB: And you are recording now, right? LB: Yes, I'm recording both of the things now. So, say that thing that you said at the end of the statement that you said about -- AB: Oh, from the Pirke Avot the ethics of our fathers. You may not complete the work in your lifetime, but neither are you free to desist from it. LB: Well, that was brilliant. That was the gist of the entire interview, which is in the audio. Thank God I got the audio. I'm sweating because I've messed this up. So, anyways, well, I do have the audio, thank God. So, I do have the transcript for that, and I think that will work, because people will look at it and stuff. Thank you. And I actually think that we have a -- and I'm going to encourage them to do this, to be sure that you're on this. This is an ongoing grant through Lehigh University that they have been doing these oral histories. And they've done a number of people. It takes them a lot longer to do these things than it takes me to do it. They have a team. But they've done, I think, ten people and they're doing me now. And I said, "You can't do it all in ninety minutes, because I have a lot of things to say and I have another interview next Monday. But I think that they should talk to you particularly about the stuff you've done for Silent Witness and your lives too, because you've had such a significant life and I'm going to make them do this, since I screwed this up. So, they're going to get in touch with you in the next round of grant stuff. And I'll force Mary Foltz to do this. She's a wonderful interviewer. Much better than I, because I can't shut up and she'll let you actually talk. And I think that your life experience has been so significant and I think that's a very, very important thing for us to be able to include into the oral history, because your involvement with the LGBT community has been extraordinarily significant. Our Pride Festival and the -- and now, we're running it through the center. It's been twenty-seven festivals and the circumstances of the anti-LGBT and the anti-preachers that would come were getting worse and worse. To the point where it was one time we had a guy that set up next to our booth, while we were trying to get to sign and he just screamed through a megaphone the entire time of the entire festival. And it was impossible to actually engage people because of that. And that wouldn't have gone away. That was before when you started to do something. AB: Yeah, and that was something that -- you know, we did a lot of research on -- and we worked with the Harrisburg Police. The Harrisburg Police were great back then, as were Parks and Rec. Through so many of the lawsuits, they had great advice for us. And we also worked with Steve Glassman. We studied Supreme Court cases on freedom of speech. We followed, you know, who the street preachers were. And, you know, looked at their lawsuits. And so, we actually did a lot of work to get where we were. You know, for instance, we would take these packets of information with us and show them to the police beforehand, because we'd always meet with the police. And, you know, well, they're not allowed to interfere with this, because that was a Supreme Court case decision. And so, the police went, "Oh, really?" You know, so, those were the kinds of things that, you know, we were able to do. We were more than just a pretty umbrella. LB: Oh, no, I was there. I remember it and I remember a couple of Freedom to Marry things that were particularly hard when you weren't there or when you weren't there. Not Freedom -- not just Silent Witness, but you particularly weren't there. And sometimes the other Silent Witness people didn't quite know how to convince the police that the preacher with the megaphone standing behind us, doing the presentation, was not really supposed to be doing that. And how they were breaking the rules. BL: We have a particular knowledge set that is hard to pass on. LB: It's really important to be able to have that and to have the presence to convince people, you know, you're going to get in trouble if you do it the wrong way. AB: Yeah, but Doctor Blaise Liffick was able to get through to the police in ways that a lot of other people can't. LB: Yeah, thank you for doing that. AB: So, his thirty-nine years of teaching at the college level really came in handy. LB: Okay. Well, I'm going to stop this now, for real. AB: Okay. LB: And stop that, for heaven sakes. And I just wanted to say I'm going to stop the recording now. END OF AUDIO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. audio This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
Duration
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01:32:28
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Alanna Berger and Blaise Liffick, July 28, 2020 (audio only)
Description
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Blaise Liffick and Alanna Berger talk about how the current COVID19 pandemic is affecting them. They talk about their recent move to be nearer to their adult children, Blaise’s retirement from teaching college, and how the end of the semester was remote learning. They discussed their many years of commitment to civil rights and the support of the LGBT community through the Silent Witness programs. They talked about the LGBT people in their family and how COVID-19 has affected their work and health from having the virus.
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PH40_07
Subject
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
Date
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2020-07-28
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audio
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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https://lgbt.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/36b2ed4510c2ee4a07a056352af6c1d3.png
f84ca255032e518e734fc49854a7ef55
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
An account of the resource
In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Liz Bradbury
Interviewee
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Anita Niles-Lee
OHMS Object
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_18.xml
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5.4 July 13, 2020 Anita Niles-Lee, July 13, 2020 PH40_18 01:05:51 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Anita Niles-Lee Liz Bradbury video/mpeg Niles-LeeAnita_20200713_video.mp4 1.0:|27(9)|50(8)|75(5)|112(14)|141(7)|170(6)|193(12)|216(8)|235(13)|258(17)|279(4)|298(3)|319(10)|338(2)|363(2)|382(9)|417(9)|438(8)|461(5)|484(7)|511(10)|532(15)|555(14)|576(9)|597(8)|624(4)|651(7)|678(4)|709(8)|736(13)|767(16)|800(3)|827(16)|846(5)|873(11)|898(16)|915(10)|938(5)|963(4)|986(4)|1003(10)|1026(2)|1053(7)|1076(13)|1099(10)|1118(14)|1141(2)|1160(15)|1189(14)|1208(10)|1235(7)|1258(4)|1287(9)|1312(6)|1335(6)|1356(15)|1379(12)|1400(7)|1423(7)|1446(6)|1473(13)|1496(12)|1519(7)|1544(2)|1573(3)|1584(5) 0 https://youtu.be/_yhV44hachA YouTube video 0 Interview Introduction LB: Wonderful. I am going to read you this stuff because we’re recording now. This says -- oh, I have to turn off my phone, I want to do that. And I want to pin -- what we call pinning the video. And so, I’m going to pin this. There. That means that when we talk it doesn’t keep jumping back to me. Just your picture, so your picture is really big. Terrific, you look terrific. Let’s see, I did that, I did that, and I did the audio and the video. With this project, Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh and the greater Lehigh Valley LGBT community, collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury and I’m here with Anita Niles-Lee. 0 378 Husband losing job due to pandemic ANL: My husband and I have been basically strict quarantine since the second week in March. He lost his job, so that kind of made it easy to totally quarantine. He was working in New Jersey and his job is affiliated with the airline industry, which we all know how that is doing, so he was laid off pretty early in the process. 
 ; 0 453 Husband losing family members to Covid-19 ANL: My husband has lost three family members actually. He lost three elderly members, one thought she had a cold. And it was within the second week, I think, that the virus broke out in New York. 0 512 Going out only for chores during the pandemic/Concerns about daughter's susceptibility to contracted Covid-19 ANL: We go out, we try to go out once a week very early in the morning just to chores. We never go out on weekends, weekends are -- we just lock down on the weekends. So, that’s pretty much been it. I’ve only seen my daughter once since -- my daughter who lives in Nazareth, we’ve only seen each other once since it started 0 695 Children's experiences with racism/Experiences during the pandemic ANL: I have Justin, who’s in LA doing very well. He actually went to one of the Black Lives Matter protests because he’s hard to keep down. And he’s active out there, but safe. They quarantine, they have a quarantine group, and those are the only people they’ve seen. He’s doing well. And as you know, my children are half-Chinese, so we have a lot of that going on too. 
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 ; LB: Has it been an issue?
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 ; ANL: My daughter in Florida was called the N-word by someone in a car who rolled his window down, yelled at her, and that happened. 0 892 Communicating with family/Daughter's work during the pandemic ANL: [...] My daughter in Florida every day. We FaceTime at least once or twice a day. She has three kids. The oldest is five, the youngest are twins, they’re two and a half. So, she’s kind of going crazy with that. And she actually taught my oldest granddaughter how to call me. 0 1042 Concerns during the pandemic/Communicating with son/Adapting to life during the pandemic ANL: Well, I have to be honest, with the pandemic and what’s happening with the transgender community and their rights being taken away and Black Lives Matter, it’s just -- and the Asian whatever he calls it, I can’t even remember, I’m overwhelmed. And some days I wonder if we’re ever going to get out of it. 0 1187 President Donald Trump's anti-Asian Covid rhetoric/Concerns of rhetoric effecting husband ANL: And as soon as we were going to drive down, he started with the Asian stuff. And I said to Dan, I’m not comfortable with you driving back through the South by yourself. So, I’m kind of grounded now until something gives. 
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 ; LB: When you said he started with the Asian stuff, you’re talking about the president of the United States. 
 ; 0 1368 Son's work as a writer LB: When you’re talking about the LGBT community, and I know Justin has been very significant in that community, he’s a writer, and has done some very significant work. What’s he working on now? 
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 ; ANL: Actually the Hulu new show, Love, Victor, he’s working on the second season for that show. 0 1411 Thoughts on Dr. Rachel Levine/President Trump's handling of the pandemic ANL: I adore her. (laughs) I’m always on Facebook as everybody pretty well knows, and some of the comments I get about that poor Dr. Levine are horrible, horrible. And I give her one-thousand percent credit for getting up there and doing what she does every day. She’s amazing, she’s amazing. She’s a hero, I have to say.
 ; 0 1536 Gardening during the pandemic ANL: We started, I call it my pandemic garden. Dan and I are die hard city people, so this is the first time we’ve ever really gardened. And I’m enjoying it. It’s actually brought us together. 0 1983 Stepping down from running PFLAG ANL: It had died down for a very, very long time. Sporadically I would get people asking for information and help over the internet, but the last year, after I think it was around December, I started hearing about a lot of young people getting upset with all that was going on with all the politics. So, someone had started the PFLAG chapter again, we had one meeting in February, and then the pandemic hit. I mean, I withdrew because I had differences with that person. 0 2142 Assisting young LGBT people ANL: Actually my -- my most recent call from help was a lady down in Florida. Someone I know in Florida gave her my number, and her daughter just started their hormone, their HRT, and she’s having a very hard time with going out and going shopping, and trying to be supportive but being stuck, and how they can get their medicine, and so I did a little research down that end of the town. But other than that it’s been quiet. 0 2371 Frustrations during the pandemic ANL: Every day I open my eyes and turn on the news. It’s almost like do I really even want to know. Daniel and I have it down to we’ll watch maybe morning news until nine o’clock and then it’s done. No more until maybe three o’clock and then it’s off for dinner time. Because you can’t. It was constant pounding and pounding. We avoid it. 0 2486 Reconnecting with people through FaceTime ANL: (laughs) I guess connecting with friends. People that, you know, we all work, but I guess I’m on the internet a lot, and I’ve -- people I went to grammar school with we’ve connected because everyone is home. I guess that was kind of fun. 
 ; 0 2650 Estrangement from family members/Son's divorce ANL: Yeah. We’re estranged. The boys just -- it was -- there is always drama but when Justin and Adrian came out and someone asked me when they were getting married, is this a real wedding, how can this be a real -- I was like, done. I pretty much just said we just can’t talk anymore. 0 2747 Concerns over contracting Covid-19 ANL: [...] I was a heavy smoker for many, many years. I have COPD. [00:46:00] And my daughter’s husband left five weeks ago, and had I not had this terrible history of lung problems, I would have been on a plane. And I told her, if I come down there I can’t get sick. So, we’re just waiting until airlines figure something out. Because my husband, I won’t let him drive. 0 2933 Struggles with mental health during the pandemic ANL: [...] The depression, the depression for me was awful. And the anxiety. Every time I had to leave my house I would palpitate, I would sweat, it was horrible. I try not to leave now. 0 3016 Black Lives Matter protests during the pandemic/Stress over others not wearing masks LB: I know that you’ve seen this circumstance that happened here in Lehigh Valley with the police. 
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 ; ANL: Yes, yeah. 
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 ; LB: And I actually had an interview with someone at five o’clock, but I knew that she would want to go. She’s a younger person and she’s a person of color, and I knew that she would want to be at this thing. So, I said let’s do your thing tomorrow. And Adrian said, people should go out and our employees can go to join this march. 0 3216 Concerns over school/daycare openings LB: And if you have a -- when we are talking about opening schools and stuff, how can -- I have a friend who’s a pediatrician and she had people ask her, moms ask her, is it okay for my kid to go to daycare and she said, “Well, let me ask you this. When your kid goes to daycare, do they ever get a cold from anybody else at daycare, or the flu, or any other thing?” They get everything at daycare. 
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 ; ANL: Turbo germs. I call them turbo germs. 
 ; 0 3322 Concerns over government's mismanagement of the pandemic effecting marginalized communities/Frustrations over pandemic deniers ANL: I have -- maybe it’s because I’m a person of color, I believe this is like his own private genocide. This is their way of getting rid of brown people, Black people, poor people, they don’t care. It’s like clear it out, we’ll buy up the real estate. It sounds very harsh and I know it’s like -- but that’s how I feel.
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 ; LB: I totally understand. I understand exactly what you mean. 0 3455 Thoughts for the future ANL: That we weren’t crazy. We weren’t speaking hyperbolically. We were truth tellers. And it’s hard, I think, for people like us to understand people so full of hate and so full of anger. And it’s beyond me. And I always thought America pulled together. America was always the country, I’m sorry, that pulled together. (crying) And we’re not. 0 MovingImage Anita discusses how the COVID-19 pandemic is affecting her and her family ; how her family has experienced racism and the rise of racism during the pandemic ; keeping in touch with her family ; the Black Lives Matter movement ; stepping down from PFLAG ; and gardening. Anita Niles-Lee 2020-07-13 LIZ BRADBURY: And you can actually see a little red dot actually and that means it's recording. Now if you look at your picture, you can see where your head is in the recording. So, you're not looking in the middle. ANITA NILES-LEE: So I skootch? LB: A little bit, but it will look like you have a halo. Which I think is kind of cute. (laughter) I'm going to start my audio recording too, so that's good. There you go. So, we're recording. Now you really look -- ANL: Oh, I look like a painting. (laughs) LB: Wonderful. I am going to read you this stuff because we're recording now. This says -- oh, I have to turn off my phone, I want to do that. And I want to pin -- what we call pinning the video. And so, I'm going to pin this. There. That means that when we talk it doesn't keep jumping back to me. Just your picture, so your picture is really big. Terrific, you look terrific. Let's see, I did that, I did that, and I did the audio and the video. With this project, Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh and the greater Lehigh Valley LGBT community, collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury and I'm here with Anita Niles-Lee. ANL: Niles-Lee, yes. LB: To talk about her experiences in the Lehigh Valley and also regarding the LGBT community during this time of the COVID pandemic, COVID-19 pandemic, as part of the LGBT Community Archive. Today is the 13th, Monday July 13, 2020, and thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start can you please state your full name and spell it for me. ANL: My name is Anita Niles-Lee. It's A-N, like Nancy, I-T-A, Niles, N-I-L-E-S, hyphen Lee, L-E-E. LB: And will you please share your birthdate. Now some people said they didn't want to give the year, I've been fine with it, doesn't matter either way. ANL: At this age I was born on May 12, 1959. (laughs) LB: You're a baby. Okay. What town are you in? ANL: I'm Reeders, Monroe County. LB: Reeders. ANL: Right, if you look on the map it's labeled Stroudsburg, but it's really Reeders. LB: You're in the Stroudsburg area. ANL: Yes. LB: Okay, great. This is the consent portion. Do you consent to this interview today? ANL: Yes, I do. LB: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publically available online in searchable formats? ANL: Yes, I do. LB: Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats including films, articles, and websites, presentations, and anything that we may not know of. ANL: Anything to help. LB: Great. So, yes is the answer to that. ANL: Absolutely yes. LB: And do you understand that you'll have thirty days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview and to identify parts that you'd like to delete or change, or withdraw your interview from the project because you just don't think it's good enough. If you want to do that you can. ANL: Yes, I understand. LB: Great. And so, I'm just going to ask you a couple of questions that are demographic questions. One of the things we ask people is, we ask people about their sexual orientation and gender identity, and I'd like for you to just kind of fill in because you are an important part of the LGBT community, how that works for you. ANL: I am heterosexual. Is that what you want me to say? LB: And cis gender I think you are? Right? ANL: I am cis gender, yes. LB: But I think also you're really an integral part of the -- or have been an integral part of the LGBT community along with your family members, so do you want to say something about that? ANL: Well, when my son came out in the late nineties, my family, we were taken by surprise, I guess you could say, so he had given us a book, I don't remember the name of the book, but at the end of the book they mentioned PFLAG. So, my husband and I found the Allentown chapter of PFLAG at that time with Don and Melinda Kohn. And when we went there we were absolutely blown away by the support and the love that PFLAG offered. And we realized in our area, which isn't far from Lehigh Valley, but in Stroudsburg that's like light years away, we needed something in the area. So, we started PFLAG Monroe County back in I think it was '98 or '99. LB: Yeah, that was great that you did that. Thank you for doing that. ANL: Long time. (laughs) LB: I need to ask you what your zip code is. ANL: 18360. LB: Okay. And it does say what is your age on here, which I think you kind of identified by giving your -- but anyway. ANL: Sixty-one. (laughs) LB: And I've asked you already about how you identify within the community, which you've said. Here are some things -- and then there's a bunch of different questions on here, I've already sent you these questions, but I just really going to start it out, you know, you can talk about anything you want with regard to the COVID pandemic and how it's affecting you, and you don't have to talk about all the questions that I asked, but let's start out with just asking are you home, are you working or are you at home, or what's going on for you? ANL: My husband and I have been basically strict quarantine since the second week in March. He lost his job, so that kind of made it easy to totally quarantine. He was working in New Jersey and his job is affiliated with the airline industry, which we all know how that is doing, so he was laid off pretty early in the process. LB: I see. Yeah. I lost one of my pages of questions. ANL: Oh, take your time. LB: You probably have them there. But let's talk about -- oh for heaven's sakes. I can't even search for it on my -- do you have the questions there, the other questions? ANL: You know what, I have them on my phone if I can just get up and get my phone. LB: I have them on the phone. Never mind, I can look them up. I'll look on my phone and we'll just pray that it doesn't ring. Talk a little bit about before as we're doing this, let's talk about if you know anybody who's had the illness or -- ANL: My husband has lost three family members actually. He lost three elderly members, one thought she had a cold. And it was within the second week, I think, that the virus broke out in New York. And they brought her into the emergency room and never saw her again. And another in New Jersey was high risk and he managed -- he caught it. And he just lost another relative in Brooklyn last week, all in their 80s, all really, really frail. But nonetheless. LB: Here we go. I'm good now. How has that affected -- I mean, both of you are at home and you're not going out. Are you not going at all or you're just going out really carefully? What's the circumstances? ANL: We go out, we try to go out once a week very early in the morning just to chores. We never go out on weekends, weekends are -- we just lock down on the weekends. So, that's pretty much been it. I've only seen my daughter once since -- my daughter who lives in Nazareth, we've only seen each other once since it started. She went back to work last week and I'm terrified because she has a congenital heart disease and her going back to work if she catches this it will kill her. It's been really hairy. LB: What does she do? ANL: She works at one of the restaurants in the Valley. A rather well-known restaurant but they're not following precautions, so it's really scary. It's really scary. LB: I had hoped to interview a couple people, people you probably know who have had it themselves, and they're actually so affected by it, I mean, they're better, but the effect it had on them is so serious that they can't talk about it. ANL: I can't -- yeah, I can't imagine. And his first family member, because of the way it was they couldn't even have a funeral. It was just -- it's that bad. And I'm just astounded by my daughter tells me people are in restaurants without their masks, and laughing, and joking, and making fun of the workers. They grabbed a lady's hand and went, "Ha, ha, 'rona, 'rona." Yeah, it's bad. And I find it frightening, I find it very frightening. LB: That's terrible. It's so upsetting. I mean, you can't -- and so, does she have any recourse in situations like that? I guess if it's in a restaurant it's hard to require people to cover their mouths. ANL: Well, I think what the employees are thinking of doing is just reporting that they're not following guidelines. They don't know, but they're hoping maybe it can get them fined, or shut down, or just bring attention to the matter because when someone did complain to an owner he said, well, if you leave we'll take it as your resignation. I think the only recourse they have is to report it and hope that someone comes in and does something so they'll take it seriously. Yeah. LB: Yeah. And you have other -- do you have just two kids? ANL: I have Justin, who's in LA doing very well. He actually went to one of the Black Lives Matter protests because he's hard to keep down. And he's active out there, but safe. They quarantine, they have a quarantine group, and those are the only people they've seen. He's doing well. And as you know, my children are half-Chinese, so we have a lot of that going on too. LB: Has it been an issue? ANL: My daughter in Florida was called the N-word by someone in a car who rolled his window down, yelled at her, and that happened. My other daughter was coming out of a Target and got the ching-chong, you know, go back to China. Other lovely stuff is going on in the world these days. LB: Has that caused them to also not want to go out? Have they had job discrimination? ANL: My daughter in Florida has been in quarantine -- you're going to think I'm telling you a soap opera. Her and her husband separated during the pandemic. So, she's quarantined with the three babies, and Nana can't get down there. So, there's that. And my daughter in Nazareth her boyfriend won't let her go out by herself at night anymore. He just -- it's safer for her to stay at home. And Justin seems to be doing well. He's working, it hasn't really affected his work. He's just more upset with all the garbage that's going around right now. LB: So, it's just you and Daniel in your home? ANL: Yes, just us chickens. (laughs) LB: Now at least you're not alone. Can you imagine what that would be like to be since March? I mean, Trish and I have been together here completely sequestered since March, we've hardly been out at all. It's so tough. And to think about the -- ANL: That's why I guess Justin was really smart because before, like right at the beginning, he and three other friends decided that they would all quarantine. And once every Friday night they would go to each -- just so they weren't alone all this time. And when they started protesting, that person was left out of the group, quarantined for two weeks, got tested, and then they'd start again. They seem to have worked out a good system for themselves. LB: It's really entertaining and very positive to hear about smart people. ANL: (laughs) Really. LB: Are you talking to him, do you find that you're talking to your family more on the phone? Are you doing video communicating too? ANL: Yeah. My daughter in Florida every day. We FaceTime at least once or twice a day. She has three kids. The oldest is five, the youngest are twins, they're two and a half. So, she's kind of going crazy with that. And she actually taught my oldest granddaughter how to call me. My daughter works until three in the morning, so at seven o'clock the babies will call me, and I pretty much FaceTime babysit for a while in the morning just so she can rest. It's wild. It's so wild. LB: She's working a regular job? ANL: She's an ASL interpreter. She hasn't worked since the pandemic because she worked mostly in hospitals and she's afraid to bring it home. So, she does Zoom work, and she works at night doing video relay for the deaf. That's how she's surviving until I get down there and she can get back into the community. LB: Is she in St. Augustine? ANL: No, she's in Odessa. It's right outside Tampa. LB: Yeah, I know it, yeah. ANL: Yeah, they have a huge deaf community down there. LB: I know. ANL: And she loves her work, she doesn't want to give that up. LB: Is she deaf? ANL: No. LB: She got into that in college? ANL: Honestly she watched The Miracle Worker when she was ten, and that's all she ever wanted to do. It was phenomenal. She never forgot. LB: The one with Patty Duke? ANL: Absolutely, the old black and white one. I like old films. LB: Anne Bancroft is so hot in that. ANL: Isn't she? (laughs) I have always loved Patty Duke. LB: (inaudible) about lesbians in it that every lesbian heard. I think that's amazing. ANL: Mrs. Robinson, come on. LB: True. But in that movie she actually makes a comment about women going after younger women. And when I first saw that when I was a kid I went -- Anne Bancroft is so hot. What's your biggest concern about all this stuff then? What's been happening? ANL: Well, I have to be honest, with the pandemic and what's happening with the transgender community and their rights being taken away and Black Lives Matter, it's just -- and the Asian whatever he calls it, I can't even remember, I'm overwhelmed. And some days I wonder if we're ever going to get out of it. They hate. And I guess because I'm affected from so many different aspects. I just feel like I'm underwater sometimes. LB: Going back a little bit to communications, have you been communicating with Justin and stuff so you can see him, or mostly just on the phone? ANL: We text every day. We have a group text. At least once a day everybody will send a silly picture or just a stupid, something to make everyone laugh, and so we know we're all okay. We've been doing it since the start. And once a week we try to call. We've had four Facebook birthday parties. (laughs) And even down in Florida the kids had a parade of cars. Instead of a birthday party all their friends drove by in -- we're adapting, I guess. LB: They're too young to go to school, so at least you don't have to worry about that too much, about having to go to school. ANL: My five year old starts kindergarten. Yeah, well, her mom registered her for virtual school. Hopefully it's not one of the programs that DeSantis decided to cut. You can't win. LB: We have to worry about the way that Pennsylvania is, but it's so crazy in Florida. We go to Florida all the time. I said we're not going to be able to go to Florida for years. ANL: Yeah. I mean, we want to drive down because of her situation because I'm planning to stay there until the little one starts kindergarten because daycare is out of the question. And as soon as we were going to drive down, he started with the Asian stuff. And I said to Dan, I'm not comfortable with you driving back through the South by yourself. So, I'm kind of grounded now until something gives. LB: When you said he started with the Asian stuff, you're talking about the president of the United States. ANL: Yes, yes. LB: This Archive is possibly going to be viewed by people thirty year from now, and when we talk about this kind of stuff, we may not -- I know exactly what you mean. ANL: Saying that name leaves a bad taste. LB: I just read a thing saying don't say his name, forty-five is fine. But I think that people may not understand, and I'm really glad I'm talking to you about this because as a mom dealing with this from so many different angles and it's very serious. People aren't going to understand this unless we do these kind of archives for that history. ANL: It's true. I mean, a neighbor, she's like why don't you just drive? I'm like because my husband is a 61 year old Asian man who will be driving back probably at night through the South and no thank you. I just can't even imagine it. And we don't think like that. LB: I know. Well, it's terrible. It's a terrible situation. We have Asian people in our family too and we were asking -- one of them has been sick and has recovered, she's a young person, and so she really has a high level of antibodies, she's really safe, she can't get it, and she can't give it to anybody else, but she's Chinese, and I'm worried about her to send her into a store because I don't want her to have to deal with that kind of stuff. People need to start thinking about this stuff. ANL: I guess I'm different. I kind of raised my kids to be different because I grew up in Chinatown, New York in the seventies and I was the different person where I grew up. And I was the one that was bullied, and I was the one that was out-casted. I used to tell them, you're not going to sit in the back of anyone's bus. And as time went on I realized it's like, Anita, you kind of have to put your money where your mouth is. And my kids always had it in the back of their heads that we're different, we have to be careful. And I kind of knock on wood these days that they were raised that way. LB: Yeah. Well, you did a good job. ANL: Thank you. LB: When you're talking about the LGBT community, and I know Justin has been very significant in that community, he's a writer, and has done some very significant work. What's he working on now? ANL: Actually the Hulu new show, Love, Victor, he's working on the second season for that show. He's doing that now actually. He has a few movies in the works, things being transferred from play to movie. He's doing very well, god bless him. Can't complain. (laughs) LB: Well, we're lucky. I know one of the good thing about our community and being in the state of Pennsylvania is that we're in a state with a governor that is smart, and we also have a really terrific Secretary of Health. Want to talk about that? Talk about that. ANL: I adore her. (laughs) I'm always on Facebook as everybody pretty well knows, and some of the comments I get about that poor Dr. Levine are horrible, horrible. And I give her one-thousand percent credit for getting up there and doing what she does every day. She's amazing, she's amazing. She's a hero, I have to say. LB: She is. And we're lucky to be in a state where at least we have a governor and a Secretary of Health who says science things. ANL: Absolutely. Absolutely. I worry now that Mr. Trump is now trying to discredit Dr. Fauci. That has me concerned. I mean, when doctors say that patients are telling them they're lying, you're telling me I have it and I don't because it's -- have you ever? Never. LB: Can't imagine, I can't understand why. It's this whole thing of sort of wanting something, it's like a little kid that wants something to be a way, so they just won't listen to anything. ANL: I can't fathom it. And that he has a cult. I'm sorry, that's what I call them. There's no rhyme or reason. LB: Yeah. (laughs) I have questions on here that don't apply to you, they have to do with queer dating hook-up sites, probably you're not using those. ANL: No, I haven't used those. (laughs) LB: Let's talk about like what things have changed in your life? Things that have specifically changed in your life that are happening now, what stuff is -- in a way because Daniel is not working, you don't have to worry about him working, so there's that. ANL: Thank god. LB: But, I mean, if you've been in since March, Trish and I have been too really, it's interesting to imagine that we've done things that we would not have normally done. ANL: Yeah. LB: Have you done that? ANL: We started, I call it my pandemic garden. Dan and I are die hard city people, so this is the first time we've ever really gardened. And I'm enjoying it. It's actually brought us together. At the beginning we were almost ready to kill each other. It was just the closeness and I guess all the stress, and everything was just so horrible. And I just said, why don't we do a garden. And it's been healing. I found it healing. LB: It's a flower garden or a vegetable garden? ANL: A vegetable garden. And I even had potatoes in honor of you and Trish because I look at your pictures every year and I'm amazed. LB: I'm going to send you stuff to put in your garden. (inaudible) onions, which are perennials. I think yeah, this is the -- usually we go away and we don't get a chance -- because we're aware we have another person water it, but they're not weeding it, and he actually came and saw the garden and said, this is the best I've actually seen the garden. And I said, yep, because we're maniacally -- ANL: Pull weeds. (laughs) LB: What do you have in the garden? ANL: I have potatoes, and I'm growing garlic, and broccoli, and cauliflower, and squash, and you name it, I've got it out there. But we did kind of let the cucumbers get this big. We're learning. LB: Here is something you can plant. The next time you go to the grocery store, if you go to an organic, a place that has organic vegetables, get a celery, a full sized celery. Then cut the bottom off. Do you have celery in the garden? ANL: Actually I have celery in my refrigerator as we speak. LB: Well, cut the bottom off and take that bottom and put it in a little thing of water, not up real high, and grow some roots out of the bottom of the thing, you know where the bottom is -- ANL: Really? LB: Once those grow down and you've got a little bit of roots, you can put it in the garden, water it like a regular thing, and celery will grow out of it. We have celery in our garden now that is growing. ANL: That is phenomenal, I have to do that. LB: It's really terrific. If it's organic then it will grow more, but it should probably even work if it isn't organic, but it should be okay. And we have two plants that we started earlier and we actually had one other celery plant that came from Rodale, but it's been -- it's very successful. It's very easy to grow that. And you know how you can -- and then when it's time to eat it, and you can eat it when it's small too, you just cut the pieces off, you don't have to pull it out, so that it keeps -- ANL: Pull the whole thing, yeah. I've actually gotten into on Facebook, I found a group, Beneficial Weeds. I'm learning which weeds in my garden can be used as tea, and salves, and all this other -- it's pretty fascinating. LB: Purslane. ANL: Yes, I have tons of it. I actually had chamomile and I never knew it. LB: That's wonderful. Good for you, Anita, that's really a good thing. So, that's something you're doing that you normally wouldn't do. ANL: No, I never would have even fathomed it. I'm learning that we can make ourselves happy sometimes. And that's what we're doing. Dan and I have found new ways to connect now that there's no kids. LB: Are you growing green beans? ANL: No, we didn't do green beans. We're going to do them next year. But I am growing Chinese ginger. LB: That's a -- ginger is -- ANL: I love Chinese ginger. LB: Sure. ANL: I have a friend next year sending me seeds from Hong Kong. LB: Now you know that the thing we grow, we don't grow potatoes anymore, we grow sweet potatoes. So, that's what we really grow. ANL: How do you do that? It's not like regular potatoes, right? LB: There's two ways of doing it and we actually get a company sends us the little starter sweet potatoes and they're like roots and we plant those, we get about fifty of those and we plant those in the garden. But you can also do it just by getting an organic sweet potato from the store, especially one that might have sprouted a little bit, and then just do that thing that you do when you sort of put it in water with some toothpicks and stuff so that it sprouts up. Then if you plant the whole thing in the ground, it will begin to have leaves, and it will get roots, and it will grow the potato. ANL: Well, then I might have a sweet potato out there. We had one and I told him, I said, oh just plant it. But then I was reading and I said, it doesn't sound like we're going to get any but you can eat the leaves. LB: You can eat the leaves. They're called Kumara, yeah. ANL: I found a Chinese recipe for them. So, we're going to try them. LB: You can eat the leaves. They're like lettuce, it tastes like lettuce or spinach, sort of a halfway between lettuce and spinach. And they're so prolific, you can get so many leaves. But the thing about sweet potatoes is they're a very, very long season. So, if you planted it in the spring, when did you plant it about? ANL: I think I planted it in the beginning of May. LB: Well, if you leave it all the way, don't be tempted to dig it up until it starts to freeze. And then -- ANL: Really? LB: Yeah. Because they're a long season. And so, if you get Georgia Jets, which are the red ones, those are the fastest because they're called Jets. And you might have a hard time getting, but you absolutely can eat the leaves. And if you dig down and you really don't see anything, leave it there until next year. (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) itself next year. Another thing is if you take the vines and you bury the vines, they will get roots that will go down and make potatoes too. ANL: Now that's probably what he'll do because he loves doing stuff like that. Thank you for the tips. LB: Yeah, those are great though. That's our biggest crop. We get so many sweet potatoes that there are enough for the whole year. We'll give you the name of the place where we get the roots from. But you really can grow from it from sweet potatoes from the store. ANL: It's amazing. Well, I'll let you know what happens. Because I have that one growing. LB: I'm dying to know. That sounds terrific. You were running PFLAG for so long, are you not doing that as much now? What's the plan? What's the deal? ANL: It had died down for a very, very long time. Sporadically I would get people asking for information and help over the internet, but the last year, after I think it was around December, I started hearing about a lot of young people getting upset with all that was going on with all the politics. So, someone had started the PFLAG chapter again, we had one meeting in February, and then the pandemic hit. I mean, I withdrew because I had differences with that person. I didn't think that -- we had different ideas of ways of -- so, I decided that I would step down and we'll see what happens. Hopefully everything will go well. LB: If you get calls from people, particular families of transgender youth, we have now we're running at the Community Center twice a month, a virtual Zoom meetings for families of transgender kids. ANL: Right, that's where I always refer everyone, Bradbury-Sullivan Center is the place to go. LB: Feel free to send them directly to me if you think because -- although we have fourteen employees now, which is amazing. ANL: Wow. That's fantastic. LB: So, we have fourteen wonderful employees and they're wonderful, they're just incredible, and Adrian is wonderful. But a lot of times when people call, they have very time consuming jobs, and I still run the info line so that if people call and they need somebody to talk to and ask questions, they don't always have -- there's not always an opportunity for them to have the kind of information from -- some of our employees are new to the community so they can't refer -- like if (inaudible) or anybody who's LGBT in Stroudsburg, they don't even know what (inaudible) is, much less -- ANL: Yeah. No, I always refer everyone to you guys because I mean, up here it's sparse. And it tends to get sticky up here at times. So, I always, you guys are like number one on my, you're on my rapid dial. (laughs) LB: Do you know or has anybody contacted you or people who are being out during the pandemic that are finding that to be -- because some youth are having problems with it. ANL: Actually my -- my most recent call from help was a lady down in Florida. Someone I know in Florida gave her my number, and her daughter just started their hormone, their HRT, and she's having a very hard time with going out and going shopping, and trying to be supportive but being stuck, and how they can get their medicine, and so I did a little research down that end of the town. But other than that it's been quiet. It seems to be a lot of elderly people trying to accept. Because the kids seem to be doing wonderfully. At our PFLAG meeting, the one meeting we had, we had a lady from Lehighton bring her five year old transgender daughter. But the baby was hiding under the table the whole time, so insecure, and my heart, my heart. But I told her, I said try calling you guys, you might know other little ones that maybe they can do playdates. And so, hopefully she called. LB: Adrian was working on a process, a potential program, and you know we have to have funding for all these things to pay for anybody because we can't just have a program, we have to have funding, we have to have support, and really set it all up and stuff. But he was working on a program for LGBT families with kids. So, it could be that the kids are LGBT, little kids, so little kids, we're talking about little kids, zero to six, because kids are looking for playdates with other kids who are LGBT or families who are pro-LGBT. It could be two lesbians, it could be two gay men, who have kids, or it could be trans families that have kids, or it could be families that have little kids that are trans or who are -- ANL: Yeah, it seems like it would be beneficial because this lady was desperate. She has to homeschool because when she wants to wear a dress to school people make fun. The school wasn't cooperative with pronouns and things. And she said she's in a backwards area where there's nothing for her either. I'll contact her and find out if she talked to you guys yet. LB: Well, I can say that the most recent Supreme Court decision, the Bostock Decision, that's a pretty good decision for us. It's about employment, it's not about schools, but the precedent that it set was very significant. So, things are going to change with regard to that. ANL: Yeah, it just takes time. LB: It does, but when you have the law behind you, the school has to do the right thing. Right now they don't, but it's going to be that they're going to have to because of the Bostock decision. ANL: And those babies, those babies need it, they really do. LB: They do, they really do. It's absolutely true. I'm trying to get back to my questions. I lost them. There I go. So, what's the biggest frustration you're having? You're talking a lot about -- I understand the fears, we all have these, and I'm so glad that you've got the gardening thing going. But are you having day to day frustrations? ANL: Every day I open my eyes and turn on the news. It's almost like do I really even want to know. Daniel and I have it down to we'll watch maybe morning news until nine o'clock and then it's done. No more until maybe three o'clock and then it's off for dinner time. Because you can't. It was constant pounding and pounding. We avoid it. And it's frustrating that I feel we can't go to a lot of places now because the way things are, people aren't very friendly or very kind. I even told him when he lost his job, way at the beginning, before any of the nonsense, I was like for some reason I think maybe it's better. It's just it's frustrating that my daughter is by herself, I can't get down there to be with her. My son is in LA. He's got his support group but you know, family, to be there. And he can't come home to visit like he usually does. I haven't seen him since Christmas. And like I said, with my youngest working in the atmosphere she works in with a bad heart. It's tough. LB: It really is. It's really tough. What's the best thing you experienced? Besides the garden? Although the garden sounds really good. ANL: (laughs) I guess connecting with friends. People that, you know, we all work, but I guess I'm on the internet a lot, and I've -- people I went to grammar school with we've connected because everyone is home. I guess that was kind of fun. LB: People who have been contacting you and saying, just checking in to see if you're okay, that kind of stuff? ANL: Yes, like hey, is this the [Amy Sitsinbrino?] from Transfiguration in 1972? (laughs) And it's like yes, it's me. It's just been wild, it's been wild. So, I'm not missing going out. LB: That's because people are home and they're thinking oh, let me look up this person kind of deal. Is that what's happened? ANL: Or a memory just pops in your head and you're I wonder what's up with them. It's been a very strange kind of fun. LB: Now that you have this Zoom capability -- ANL: I know, my husband is never going to see me again. LB: You can see how really real it is. It's different than a little phone thing or something. It's really real time. You're really talking to the person like they're there almost. ANL: Yeah, well, we do this on FaceTime. I think FaceTime is pretty much the same thing. But nothing replaces a hug. LB: That's true. The big difference I think between Zoom and FaceTime, and I don't know FaceTime that well, but it's much easier on Zoom to have multiple people. ANL: Yeah, yeah. FaceTime when we do it for our little birthday parties, it takes a few shots before we get it the right way. LB: Yeah, yeah. So, think about how techy you're becoming now. ANL: I know. I have to say I impressed myself with this. LB: You did. You're brilliant. Thank God that we have this ability to do this, to communicate with people. ANL: Yeah, it makes you miss, like my mom and dad died like five and three years ago, respectively. And too bad, they just missed it, the ability to see all -- to have the grandkids and everything, the great grandkids. LB: Were they in New York? ANL: Yeah, they never left. LB: Do you have other family members in New York? ANL: Yeah. We're estranged. The boys just -- it was -- there is always drama but when Justin and Adrian came out and someone asked me when they were getting married, is this a real wedding, how can this be a real -- I was like, done. I pretty much just said we just can't talk anymore. LB: Are they married, Justin and Adrian? ANL: They were. Unfortunately Hollywood. That's what I say, Hollywood. Their divorce is in the process. Justin's found a new person. And Adrian's still my son. LB: He's a wonderful guy. They had been together a long time. ANL: Seventeen and they're thirty-seven, twenty years. They grew up together. But, you know, they're amicable. And I told Adrian, you'll always be my baby. Yeah, what are you doing to do. He's like Mommy, I'm so -- I'm like no, no, no sorry, it's life, it happens. We're okay. LB: It happens. ANL: Yeah, I can't -- he was my baby too, I can't. And Justin's okay with that. LB: Okay, well that's good. Good for him. How worried are you about you getting it? ANL: Terrified. I was a heavy smoker for many, many years. I have COPD. And my daughter's husband left five weeks ago, and had I not had this terrible history of lung problems, I would have been on a plane. And I told her, if I come down there I can't get sick. So, we're just waiting until airlines figure something out. Because my husband, I won't let him drive. LB: It's complicated. And it's not like you can take a bus or something. ANL: Simple little things. I mean, you know every three months I was on a plane back and forth and it's all stopped. I haven't seen them since Christmas and my heart breaks. LB: Such a complicated thing. And is Daniel at risk? He seems like a big strapping guy. ANL: No, he's pretty healthy. He has borderline diabetes, it's not full-fledged, but we still won't take chances. It's just not -- especially that his family is like -- yeah, it's kind of bowling them over so, no thank you, we'll stay home. LB: I don't mean to point this out, but I'm quite a bit older than you, but we're older and they're saying that people over 45 are at a much higher risk. ANL: Yeah, it's true, it's scary. And I know what it's like not to be able to breathe. I mean, if it's anything like that it's scary. And to have to go through it alone? LB: The second layer of it, that whole thing of getting it and then like I know somebody who had it and it was devastatingly hard for her, but she had family and she also has a lot of medical connections, like she has healthcare connections. If she hadn't had that, if she'd been -- in fact, I can think of three people who had it, had they been well they would have died, just no question that they would have died. ANL: Yeah, it's horrible. And I mean, not only is it hard for the person with it, but for the family. His cousins were totally locked out, they had no information until she passed away. LB: Was she in New York City? ANL: New York City during the first three weeks. LB: Oh no. ANL: When everything was berserk. And she thought it was a cold. They took her to the emergency room, the staff converged, and everyone had to leave, and that was it. They didn't know until she passed. LB: That's awful. Do you think this is like, and I know how it is for me, but in terms of mental health, I don't see how it can't affect people every day. ANL: Oh it does. The depression, the depression for me was awful. And the anxiety. Every time I had to leave my house I would palpitate, I would sweat, it was horrible. I try not to leave now. And like I said, Dan and I will go out at six, seven in the morning. And we went to I think it was Walmart and it was frightening. It was crowded, no masks, it was horrifying. There was a young woman there carrying a baby, no mask, no nothing, and I was horrified. And that was it, I told him after that. I stayed in bed for two days after that. And I kind of told him, I said I can't do that. But I have to be in open air. I'll go to the farmer's market, I'll go to the farm store, but Giant and -- no, I can't. It's horrifying. LB: You can't control the other people and they're the ones that are putting you at risk. I know that you've seen this circumstance that happened here in Lehigh Valley with the police. ANL: Yes, yeah. LB: And I actually had an interview with someone at five o'clock, but I knew that she would want to go. She's a younger person and she's a person of color, and I knew that she would want to be at this thing. So, I said let's do your thing tomorrow. And Adrian said, people should go out and our employees can go to join this march. But then he went on to say, if you're not at risk. And I look at the videos of the first march, which was on Saturday, late Saturday night, and most of the people, because these are Black Lives Matters marches and they wore the mask. I saw one person, but I also noticed that the police were not wearing masks. And some of them were, but most of them weren't. And some of the elected officials weren't wearing masks. And I also saw somebody who had their mask not covering their face. And I know these people are chanting and shouting. And I understand why, I understand exactly why, but I cannot be around a bunch of people who are chanting, and shouting, and screaming, even though I want to be, that's where my heart is. ANL: It's true. Justin stayed in for most of the protests. The first one he went to was the big one in LA for the Black Lives Matter at the Pride Black Lives Matter, he went to that one. And he showed pictures, they were like this. But they were all masked. And he went and got tested and all of them tested negative. So, I'm thinking maybe protesting is not as bad as indoors. LB: Well, if you're outside and everybody is wearing a mask. I think with a lot of those protests for Black Lives Matter protests, you can count on those people being very careful and not wanting, not getting close if they can avoid it, and I know these people didn't do it either. But you don't need a lot of people to infect a big group. You have one person can infect a lot of people and it doesn't matter if you're wearing a mask. ANL: And not only that, saying something isn't easy either because you always have to wonder what's going to happen if I say something to someone to wear a mask, are they going to try to punch me. LB: Yeah, no kidding. ANL: My stress just goes -- LB: I know. ANL: Because I hate, I couldn't stand being there watching this young mother have her baby, neither of them masked, in the middle of the store, I wanted to shake her. And you just have to like put your hands under here and go no, can't do it, can't do it these days. It's horrifying, I find it, because I'm a mom. LB: I know. ANL: And the baby, if you don't want to wear it, fine. The baby. LB: And even just the baby wearing the mask, it's other people. ANL: Yeah, breathing on him. LB: And if you have a -- when we are talking about opening schools and stuff, how can -- I have a friend who's a pediatrician and she had people ask her, moms ask her, is it okay for my kid to go to daycare and she said, "Well, let me ask you this. When your kid goes to daycare, do they ever get a cold from anybody else at daycare, or the flu, or any other thing?" They get everything at daycare. ANL: Turbo germs. I call them turbo germs. LB: Yeah, it's tough to put your life on hold but maybe you need to find something else to do for a year or two. ANL: Florida opened daycare on July 8. What they did down there is the daycares closed in March, but they were still charging. So, my daughter said, I'm not going to pay, she withdrew them. But a lot of parents had done that, they still held the slots. When school opened on July 8, the rule was that the children couldn't have backpacks and they had to be dropped at the door. The parents were not allowed into the school to see what precautions were being taken, to see how the children were being set up. My daughter was like, are they crazy. She's like I want to go in there and see what they're doing. But evidently throughout Florida the parents in daycare have no idea what's going on. LB: I just don't see how they can possibly -- if you've got one infected kid or a teacher that's infected, how they can keep that from happening to other people. ANL: Holidays, how are they going to go on holidays? I have -- maybe it's because I'm a person of color, I believe this is like his own private genocide. This is their way of getting rid of brown people, Black people, poor people, they don't care. It's like clear it out, we'll buy up the real estate. It sounds very harsh and I know it's like -- but that's how I feel. LB: I totally understand. I understand exactly what you mean. I've interviewed a lot of people and this is my third COVID interview, but I interview ten people about HIV/AIDS during the epidemic, and these were older guys, mostly men, three women and seven men, who lived through the AIDS epidemic. And they were talking about it in relation to COVID too. And I have to tell you Anita, that although you see people acting stupid, people that we really know are not acting stupid. I mean, these guys are not acting stupid, you and Daniel aren't acting stupid, your kids aren't acting foolishly, so there is an unfortunate segment of the population who's a bunch of carriers. ANL: And they don't believe it. And they don't believe it. I mean, if you go into your physician you're whole life, and they've always been amazing to you, and they tell you you have COVID, and you turn around and tell them they're lying, what mind games does he play on people? It's so beyond my capability to understand how these people are so enraptured by that. He's Jim Jones. LB: Yeah, it's really true. It's really frightening. Well, we're coming to the end of this. We've been talking for an hour almost. And I just want to, let's see if I've gotten all of these questions, I think we've covered everything here. I'm so excited about your garden, I can't wait to hear more about it. Do you have anything else you -- so think about this way, someday, someday in the future, somebody is going to look back on this way past perhaps our lives, because we don't have any information about what happened to people on a person to person circumstance with regard to the flu epidemic of 1918, which is comparable to this, where millions of people, millions, in the 50 million people died. And we didn't have any information about that and I think it's important for us to leave information behind to perhaps educate people about not making this kind of mistake in the future. Now, in the future, people may look at this and go, we have this vaccine, or they might go, yeah, half the population is gone now, or who knows. What do you want to tell those people, those people thirty, or forty, or fifty years from now who are people like your age or people your kids' ages, what do you think? ANL: That we weren't crazy. We weren't speaking hyperbolically. We were truth tellers. And it's hard, I think, for people like us to understand people so full of hate and so full of anger. And it's beyond me. And I always thought America pulled together. America was always the country, I'm sorry, that pulled together. (crying) And we're not. LB: But you know what? I think this is the problem, the pulling together requires people being present and right now the people who care the most about other people can't be present. Because I can't come and hug you. I can't come and hug and we can't, this group of people who is going to protest for Black Lives Matter. And the Black Lives Matter stuff has been great. I have to say the people who are speaking out about that have been very significant. But those people have to be really careful. Justin can't go and he won't go to every one of those things because it puts other people at risk. And he is a caring person. ANL: Yeah, it hurts. It hurts a lot. I do what I can but how much can we do? There's no -- I feel like we're screaming at the tops of our lungs and no one is listening. Yeah, and it does, it takes you to very dark places sometimes. And this isn't my America. There's a movie, it's an old one, I'm an old movie fanatic, White Cliffs of Dover. LB: What is it called? White Cliffs of Dover. Okay. ANL: White Cliffs of Dover. And at the end American troops are marching through England, we saved the day, and it leaves you feeling so happy. And it's like that's not us anymore. And it made me cry, it made me really cry for something we lost. LB: Yeah. But here's something I always say about WWII films, because that's a WWII film. ANL: Yeah, it sure is. LB: WWII films, there's two kinds of films, there are the films that they made during the war when they didn't know whether they were going to win. Like Since You Went Away with Claudette CoLBert is a great example of that. So, it's a real movie to encourage people to do the right thing. And then there's movies that were made after the war when they knew we were going to win. And they're a different kind of movie. It's a different kind of patriotism. But both of those things were made to make people more strong in regard to their patriotism. And the problem is that creative people, I mean, right now it's harder for them to make a movie about -- you know, we've only been dealing with this since March. ANL: Yeah. LB: If you look at like the flu epidemic of 1918, which I talk about a lot, my grandmother died in that flu epidemic, but in 1918 mostly young people got it. Mostly young people who were -- not kids, but people from twenty to forty years old. And that flu epidemic was -- it lasted for fifteen months and then it disappeared because it mutated and just disappeared. But one out of every three people in the world had that flu. And we're only into what, six months of this, so far. ANL: Yeah, we're still at the beginning. LB: And people want it to be over so bad. People feel that way about war too. They're like, we want the war to end right away, and they want it that -- they expect WWII, they were expecting that in both WWII, WWI, Civil War, that it would end in three months or four months, and it doesn't. And I do think that we have a chance for hope. We've got some amazing young people, we've got every person, every real scientist in the world is working on this epidemic. That's one of the things that people who lived through the AIDS epidemic that I just interviewed compared to this. Because the AIDS epidemic, it was years before anybody did anything. ANL: Yeah, that's so true. It's so true. LB: Even though we have somebody in the White House that is not very smart, and that's a generous thing to say. ANL: (laughs) That's very kind of you. LB: People all over the country and the majority of people, quite frankly, I think, who are aware that this is very, very serious. And it's shocking to see. It's the people who are out doing stupid things are the people who are stupid. The smart people are in their houses. And that's one of the problems I think too. ANL: Yeah, well, I firmly believe Darwin should just do his thing right now. LB: Yeah, except for there's collateral damage. ANL: Yeah, they talk to us too. That's the bad part. But anyway, hopefully soon we can go back to a new normal. LB: I hope so. Let's hope so. And I think we will actually. I hope that we'll learn from this, at least for a while. ANL: I don't think we can go through this again in our lifetimes. I think this is my full. I could not go through this again. LB: I really agree, but you think about people in WWI and then they had to do WWII. So, they had to do that in their own lifetimes. And they were in countries that were being attacked. There's a kitty. ANL: That's my baby. LB: There's another person in your house. That's a beautiful cat. What's your cat's name? ANL: Aslan. The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. LB: There you go. ANL: He used to have a mane. LB: I am going to turn off the record button now. But thank you again so much for your involvement in this. It's been so great. END OF AUDIO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). 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01:05:15
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Anita Niles-Lee, July 13, 2020
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Anita discusses how the COVID-19 pandemic is affecting her and her family; how her family has experienced racism and the rise of racism during the pandemic; keeping in touch with her family; the Black Lives Matter movement; stepping down from PFLAG; and gardening.
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PH40_18
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
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2020-07-13
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
An account of the resource
In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Liz Bradbury
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Ariel Torres
OHMS Object
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Viewer)
https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_10.xml
OHMS Object Text
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5.4 July 14, 2020 Ariel Torres, July 14, 2020 PH40_10 01:01:57 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Ariel Torres Liz Bradbury video/mpeg TorresAriel_20200714_video.mp4 1.0:|31(4)|52(7)|85(9)|130(11)|163(8)|194(5)|231(7)|260(14)|287(12)|320(15)|355(2)|386(13)|417(12)|446(2)|471(8)|508(4)|537(4)|570(13)|601(10)|630(14)|663(17)|698(8)|745(15)|780(9)|821(8)|868(2)|895(4)|942(13)|979(11)|1012(16)|1037(5)|1070(6)|1103(3)|1130(9)|1163(11)|1202(9)|1237(12)|1274(10)|1299(14)|1342(2)|1381(2)|1428(11)|1471(12)|1512(12)|1547(13)|1578(12)|1611(9)|1654(14)|1701(3)|1748(7)|1791(5)|1820(3)|1859(5)|1890(12)|1931(13)|1976(11)|2023(2)|2056(13)|2083(4)|2108(13)|2143(14)|2188(5) 0 https://youtu.be/3wvBkM5hPn4 YouTube video 0 Interview Introduction LB: - now -- wait, wait (laughter) one second. I’m not going to turn it off. I don’t want to get in trouble. He’ll be right back. (laughs) Oh, okay, bear with us, everyone. He’ll be right back here.
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 ; AT: I’m sorry. Look at that.
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 ; LB: Oh, that’s bling-y. That’s good. It’s beautiful. But you’re so much more handsome. I don’t want you to wear that one because I can’t -- you know it’s so hard to understand -- it’s hard to hear what people are saying when they’re wearing the mask because you can’t see their mouths. It’s really hard with Trish. You can’t wear the mask --
 ; 0 289 Working as the Pride programs manager at the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center/Pride going virtual due to pandemic LB: And so, have you been working? Has your employer closed or laid you off? And I know the answer to that. So, want to talk about where you work and what you do?
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 ; AT: Yeah, so I work at the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and I’m the Pride programs manager, which basically is a very, very, very condensed way of saying I run the festival. 0 364 Working part-time as drag queen Elektra Fearce St. James/Missing socialization due to pandemic LB: So, let’s talk a little bit about -- you have other parts of your life that also include the stuff that you do that has been really -- had a significant impact because you have another job, too.
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 ; AT: Yeah.
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 ; LB: And that’s really been -- have had a strong impact from COVID, so talk about that a little bit.
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 ; AT: Yeah, so, of course, by day, I run the Lehigh Valley Pride festival and by night, on some nights, I am Elektra Fearce St. James 0 545 Communicating with family through Facebook Messenger and Zoom LB: And so, are you socializing with people in other ways? I mean, are you using online stuff or video chats or phone or --
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 ; AT: Yeah, yeah, definitely. We’re using Facebook Messenger a lot. I have a group chat that goes on because we already did it kind of anyway, so I like to say I was a little bit trained for this before it kind of happened. 0 675 Spending time with family during the pandemic LB: And not only are you -- you have a lot of friends but you have a big family, don’t you?
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 ; AT: Yeah, my family is huge. My mother’s one of fifteen and my dad is one of seven. So, that’s twenty-two aunts and uncles. Not all of them are still living but -- and they each have plenty of children. So, I meet a new cousin every week. (laughter) 
 ; 0 756 Thoughts on Dr. Rachel Levine LB: Well, I was going to ask you about how you feel about seeing Rachel Levine, Dr. Rachel Levine, and how that is sort of a positive thing for all of us. Say a little bit more about that and our --
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 ; AT: Yeah.
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 ; LB: -- our own (inaudible)
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 ; AT: Definitely. It’s very empowering to see someone who can just -- I want to say it’s like breaking barriers, you know? 0 932 Discussion of how pandemic has affected life in general LB: So, do you think, I mean, it’s interesting that -- like, this is a question that I think people wrote before we were really in the thick of the pandemic. And really, in the grand scheme of things, we haven’t been in it that long. But this is saying how has it affected your life? And, I mean, I can’t think -- and for me and you, I don’t think -- I think it’s affected every moment of every day, you know?
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 ; AT: So, yeah, I think -- for someone to say that it hasn’t affected them, I feel like it’s -- I hate to say it but it’s somebody who’s living in denial. 0 1134 Gradually going back out to eat as Covid restrictions lessen/safely taking account of mental health and socializing with others LB: I think, so, this is asking, like, are you staying in and are you limiting going out? I mean, have you been going to the grocery store and have you been going out to eat or what do you think?
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 ; AT: I think -- so, my aunt loves the diners. I grew up with -- I always say my one aunt, she gave me a childhood because my dad was a homebody and my mom didn’t drive 0 1286 Performing drag during Covid restrictions LB: So, this says whatever queer activities have you been doing? And it’s funny that you and I do queer activities all day long every day, so --
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 ; AT: Right.
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 ; LB: -- it’s hard to find something that isn’t queer that we’re doing, so --
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 ; AT: Right, well, I mean, I did -- since we are in the green, I did perform this past Sunday at a very limited seating kind of place. I did have, like, a face shield on, so that was -- it was fun to do but it was still a little scary.
 ; 0 1464 Experience working from home LB: Now, he does something that’s drastically -- I think is very different from -- than you would normally do. But you’re getting up a lot earlier than you normally do.
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 ; AT: Yes, I am because I don’t --
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 ; LB: [All the time?]. (laughter) And also, there’s other reasons, too. Explain why that is. It’s not just because you’re home.
 ; 0 1697 Frustrations/concerns during pandemic LB: So, what’s the biggest frustration or fear you have or challenge that you’ve had during this time? I mean, are there -- that are just so frustrating for you?
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 ; AT: Honestly, other people who don’t take this seriously.
 ; 0 1780 Similarities between 1918 Spanish flu and Covid-19 pandemics LB: Yeah, (laughter) I’ve always -- I mean, I know I’ve told you before that in 1918, my grandmother died and she was thirty-two years old at the time. And my father was four and he, then, grew up without a mother and -- because in the flu epidemic of 1918, most people who got it were between the ages of twenty and forty and she was right in the middle of that time. 0 1975 Pandemic's affect on mental health LB: So, like, you always seem like such a normally even-keeled guy. (laughter) You think this is affecting your mental health?
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 ; AT: I feel like in the beginning it did because I was a little more -- I was on the worried side. 0 2100 Discussion of taking Covid risks responsibly/Taking into consideration health of others AT: And so, just something I want to draw home. If you want to take the risks, that’s fine. But just make sure you do it responsibly. Make sure you take every precaution possible.
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 ; LB: Yeah, and the likelihood of people -- I mean, it’s so easy to be frustrated at people who will say, “Well, I don’t care if I get sick.” And you’re saying, “Yeah, but you’re going to make other people sick.” 0 2215 Family who have contracted Covid-19 AT: I had a cousin who actually contracted COVID and an uncle. They’re not in the same home but my aunt -- they worked at a retirement home and my cousin does home care. And she’s one of the strongest people I know. 0 2405 Sharing positive experiences resulting from staying/working from home LB: So, what, of all the stuff that you’ve been doing, what’s the best thing that’s been happening? Is there anything -- like, some people will say, “I’m such an introvert, I really love this, I don’t have to talk to anybody.” (laughs)
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 ; AT: Well, okay, so I -- see, I do love going out but secretly, I do have a little bit of my father in me. I am a homebody. So, working from home, I think, has been great. 0 2498 Discussing anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers LB: It’s probably hard -- it’s hard to imagine how we can stop this -- I just read -- Trish just read a thing that said that if every person in the country wore a mask every single day for the next -- you know, three months, it would be gone. It’d be over.
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 ; AT: Eradicated.
 ; 0 2855 Discussion of computer security/Playing video games during the pandemic LB: It’s so funny because my sister even said some -- one of those things. Like, she said she thought that the -- and she never fussed up like this. And she said she thought the camera in her computer was watching her. And I said, “Well, is it on?” And she said, “No.” I said, “Well, come on! I mean, unless you’re downloading a bunch of really hacky programs that are -- you know, have you downloaded a lot of programs?” 0 2970 Family members who have contracted Covid-19/How the disease affected them differently LB: So, here’s the next question. Here’s the next question. Let’s see. And so, I’ve already asked you. You have people in your family that have had this.
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 ; AT: Yeah.
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 ; LB: And [your parents?] --
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 ; AT: And something I didn’t -- well, if you -- actually, something I can add, since that question just came up, my aunt and uncle, the ones who got it, who are married, my aunt tested positive but she was asymptomatic. And her husband ended up in the hospital for three days. 0 3146 Traveling to Florida during the pandemic LB: You went on a trip. You went to California-- or to Florida.
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 ; AT: I did go to Florida, yes.
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 ; LB: And what was that like? What’s it like in the airport?
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 ; AT: It was okay. I was a little nervous. I was under the assumption that the flights would be only flown at, like, certain capacity. That flight was entirely full.
 ; 0 3426 Discussing vaccinations LB: And what are we going to do? We can’t go there if -- and there’s no end in sight. It’s not going to end until there’s, like, a mandatory vaccination.
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 ; AT: Right.
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 ; LB: Because -- or until we can be vaccinated. You know, if we’re vaccinated, that means that then we don’t have to worry if they really have a successful vaccine. But it takes a while to get a good vaccine. 0 3465 Thoughts on Black Lives Matter/Attending protests during the pandemic LB: So, we’re coming to the end of this. So, let me ask you one more question, because we’re talking about -- I’m asking everybody about all the things that are happening now and a lot of other things are happening at the same time as COVID and we can’t really separate that. So, I want to talk to you about Black Lives Matter and see -- you want to talk a little bit about that and what’s happening in Allentown right now and what’s happening in the United States right now and if you want to say anything about that.
 ; 0 3678 Conclusion AT: Because I could go on for hours but this is the end of the interview, so we’re just going to leave it there.
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 ; LB: I’m thinking, yeah, you know, I would let you go on for hours but I know you have to do work. (laughs)
 ; 0 MovingImage Ariel talks about how the current COVID-19 pandemic is affecting him, his friends and his family, his work on the Pride Festival and other projects at Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center. He also talks about traveling, not being able to do his second job as a nationally known drag performer, his daily routine, and Black Lives Matter issues.
 ; Ariel Torres 2020-07-14 LIZ BRADBURY: -- now -- wait, wait (laughter) one second. I'm not going to turn it off. I don't want to get in trouble. He'll be right back. (laughs) Oh, okay, bear with us, everyone. He'll be right back here. AT: I'm sorry. Look at that. LB: Oh, that's bling-y. That's good. It's beautiful. But you're so much more handsome. I don't want you to wear that one because I can't -- you know it's so hard to understand -- it's hard to hear what people are saying when they're wearing the mask because you can't see their mouths. It's really hard with Trish. You can't wear the mask -- AT: [And it's just?] -- LB: -- you have to take the mask off. Okay, I -- AT: [You asked if -- promise?] to be at the beginning of the recording -- LB: Okay, okay. So, I want to be sure that we're pinned in here. I think you're pinned. Now you're good. Okay, and so, this is the deal. With this project, Bradbury-Sullivan LBGT Community Center at the Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community, collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury and I'm here with Ariel Torres to talk about his experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of the COVID-19 pandemic as part of the Lehigh Valley Community Archive. We are meeting on Zoom on July 14th, 2020. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start, please state your full name and spell it for me. AT: My full name is Ariel Torres and it is spelled A-R-I-E-L T-O-R-R-E-S. LB: Will you please share your birth date? AT: I was born on May 2nd of 1985. LB: Okay, and you are in -- what town are you in? You're in Bethlehem? AT: I am in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. LB: Okay. This is the consent part. So, now, we say do you consent to this interview today? AT: Yes. LB: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable formats? AT: An enthusiastic yes! LB: (laughs) Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats including films, articles, websites, presentations, and other things? AT: Si, which is yes in Spanish. LB: (laughs) Do you understand that you will have thirty days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview, identifying any parts you'd like to delete or withdraw the whole interview from the project if you choose? AT: Yes. LB: Okay. So, this is what we're -- so, now, here's a couple of things. These are some identity things. So, what's your zip code where you are? AT: I am 18018. LB: And what is your age? AT: (laughs) Do I really have to tell it? LB: You do not if you don't want to. AT: Well, I'm thirty-five -- LB: I can (inaudible) AT: -- thirty-five and proud. It's fine. LB: Thirty-five, okay. And how do you identify within the LGBT community in terms of sexual orientation, gender identity, and stuff like that? AT: I am a gay male. LB: Okay. Here are some things to think about. And so, you identify as cisgender, is that correct? AT: A cisgendered gay male, yeah -- LB: Okay. AT: -- who also does drag on the sides, so call me whatever you want with pronouns, just not late to dinner. LB: (laughs) All right. So, I have all these questions and I think I'm just going to throw these at you and you can talk as long as you want. You can say whatever you want. This is all about how COVID is affecting your life. And it is affecting your life -- and sort of affecting your life within the LGBT community and then in general. So, I know the answers to some of these but let's start out, so -- and this is also going to go into the archives so that people 30 years from now can look at this and go what was this like during this time? And then, they'll say -- AT: Yeah, they're going to say, rough, they had to do this on a computer. Oh, who does that? (laughter) Technology will be light years ahead of us by then. LB: No, I wonder how it will be. So, who is -- you're by yourself. Who's in your home with you? Do you have anybody else living with you? AT: Nope, I live alone. LB: Okay. And so, have you been working? Has your employer closed or laid you off? And I know the answer to that. So, want to talk about where you work and what you do? AT: Yeah, so I work at the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and I'm the Pride programs manager, which basically is a very, very, very condensed way of saying I run the festival. But there are so many moving parts that go into running a festival when it comes to planning, organizing, you know, all of that good stuff. And due to COVID-19, unfortunately, we had to go virtual this year. So, it's like learning how to plan an entire festival in a virtual format. So, just when you think you have it down pat, COVID hits and it shakes up my life just as much as everybody else's but just in a different way, I'm sure. LB: So, this festival's been going on for about, what, this is the 27th or 28th one? AT: Since 199-- I want to say four. LB: Ninety-four. It's '94, it's '94. AT: Ninety-four. LB: Yeah. AT: So, twenty years will be 2024 and we're in 2020. So, it's about sixteen years, yeah. My math is wrong. LB: No, that is thirty years. AT: Thirty years, yeah. LB: Yes. AT: Sorry. (laughter) LB: And -- AT: That's right. I run the festival but I don't do accounting, I'm sorry. LB: (laughs) And so, but the center has only been doing this and our center has only been open for a while and you've done this, the festival since we took it over. And how long has that been? AT: This would have been our third in person festival that we were in charge of. So, now this is our third festival but the only difference is it's virtual now instead of in person. (laughs) And so -- LB: So, let's talk a little bit about -- you have other parts of your life that also include the stuff that you do that has been really -- had a significant impact because you have another job, too. AT: Yeah. LB: And that's really been -- have had a strong impact from COVID, so talk about that a little bit. AT: Yeah, so, of course, by day, I run the Lehigh Valley Pride festival and by night, on some nights, I am Elektra Fearce St. James. I perform as an entertainer here in the Lehigh Valley and I've been doing that for about 15 years now. So, it's been quite a while. And for everybody who's out there, in case you wanted to know what I look like, I'm turning on a virtual background for you. And there I am! LB: Oh, okay, oh! AT: Little bit of leg. Again, technology is not 20 years in the future but there is Elektra Fearce St. James. So, that's me on some nights, when there's a full moon. As you can see, I look like a wolf. LB: You look great in -- AT: But, yeah, it's been quite the experience. Drag is like a steady income for me. I perform really regularly, not only locally but I travel a lot, I go out of town. And with everything being shut down, it has given me a little bit of a financial strain. Thankfully, I do have my day job, which allows me to continue and, you know, still live a good life. But, you know, that extra money is just, like, not there like it used to be. But also, just being around people -- I'm a people person, that's why I love my position at the Center. I'm in a position within my community to help others to -- if I don't know the answers to certain questions, though I run the Pride festival, I've been with the organization as an administrative manager before. So, I've been in certain positions where it's very fulfilling. Pro-fo-homo is what some people call a professional homosexual person. So, it's just -- it's hard being at home, not being able to be at the bars, you know? I enjoy a good cocktail just like many other people, not that it's necessary to have a good time but I do enjoy them. So, just being around the atmosphere of my peers, locally, and just within the state of Pennsylvania and the tri-state area, it's been quite an adjustment to just not be around people who you're used to seeing, right? So, you start to realize who you miss during pandemics. (laughs) LB: Yeah. AT: Definitely. LB: Really do. And so, are you socializing with people in other ways? I mean, are you using online stuff or video chats or phone or -- AT: Yeah, yeah, definitely. We're using Facebook Messenger a lot. I have a group chat that goes on because we already did it kind of anyway, so I like to say I was a little bit trained for this before it kind of happened. But I have some really close friends. Some live in Florida that used to live here, so we have a group chat of about, like, I think eight or nine of us sometimes. I just jump on a call randomly throughout, like, any given day. So, that really helps. Unfortunately, my grandfather passed away during this pandemic. Not from COVID but -- and, you know, that was even hard. We couldn't have -- my family's very Catholic, so there's always the viewing for about two days and then you drive to the church and then you go to the burial. We had to just go to the burial. Like, it was like leaving from home, you get to the burial site. Everybody was socially distant and even that was a challenge. They wanted to put a cap on how many people could be there, so it's definitely strange times. But it's just so many different moving parts that make it -- and things that you didn't think about before that you wouldn't even give a second thought have not become part of our day to day. So, it really has affected me in that way. But, you know, things like Facebook Messenger, like I said, and Zoom calls. Like, we had to rally behind Zoom calls with -- I say the younger generation, you know? The cousins. We did family Zoom calls for a few weeks, just to, like, have mental health check-ins and make sure that the family was doing okay in case we had to be there for each other. That way, we could be mentally prepared and tell ourselves, okay, I have to leave my house. I have to go help this person with this. They're not doing really well right now. I have to go make -- do I have my mask? That's the worst thing. You drive halfway there and then you have to turn around and say, oh, my gosh I left -- LB: Yeah! AT: -- mask at home. LB: No! AT: Because the last thing I want to do is really go try to help somebody and who knows? Nowadays you could be asymptomatic and you don't even know from just checking your vitals. So, like, you have to be careful, you know? The little things before that we wouldn't worry about have just -- you know, starting to be second nature to us, so -- LB: And not only are you -- you have a lot of friends but you have a big family, don't you? AT: Yeah, my family is huge. My mother's one of fifteen and my dad is one of seven. So, that's twenty-two aunts and uncles. Not all of them are still living but -- and they each have plenty of children. So, I meet a new cousin every week. (laughter) LB: And you haven't been able to see any of them in person for a while. Maybe they come over and wave from -- you for far away or -- AT: Well, I do have -- two of my cousins, especially, we have already given each other the rundown, we know how to be in public spaces. They know where I work, especially because we were such advocates when it comes to health, especially health disparities within the LGBT community. So, we follow Dr. Rachel Levine, like, very closely, the instructions. So, we feel comfortable enough to be around each other even though we don't live in the same home because we might as well live in the same home with as much as we see each other. So, that's been a little bit of a saving grace with visits here and there, socially distant on the porch, you know? I have my hand sanitizer always by the door. I just ran out of Lysol, so nobody's allowed to come over until I get some more. (laughter) LB: I know! AT: That's where I am now. LB: Well, I was going to ask you about how you feel about seeing Rachel Levine, Dr. Rachel Levine, and how that is sort of a positive thing for all of us. Say a little bit more about that and our -- AT: Yeah. LB: -- our own (inaudible) AT: Definitely. It's very empowering to see someone who can just -- I want to say it's like breaking barriers, you know? It's, like, not really caring what other people think. I've been in the comments section. She's been treated so terribly and disrespected so much in the comments and it takes everything in me not to just, like, fall into the bait because it's a bait and those comment threads will just go on and on and on. But to just see somebody who is living their truth and is not worried about what anybody thinks and literally is put to the test of that every single day is just -- I think that she is an amazing person and I couldn't think of anybody better to lead us during a crisis like this. And I think she's doing the best job she can possibly do. So, if you see this, thank you. (laughter) Thank you, thank you, thank you. (laughs) LB: Well, we are all really grateful for her. I mean, we -- there's so much misinformation that's going on and lack of leadership, I think, in other areas, so it's wonderful to see her and the leaders we do have. So, this question is on my list. I didn't write this but are you spending any time on queer dating or hook-up apps and have you found queer community despite --- you know, additional queer community despite these restrictions? AT: Yeah, I definitely am no stranger to, you know, Grindr or any of the other social apps that are targeted for, you know, the hi and bye is what I call it. (laughs) A lot of people use it for a hi and bye. (laughter) So, I think I -- like, yes, I am still on them. I do, I use them for conversation but I find it very scary, though, some of the messages that I do get because, I mean, there are a lot of people out there who just don't take this pandemic into consideration. And, yeah, let's just say their message starters aren't always just about conversation and I think they should be safer. So, I just -- I've become familiar with the block button because, you know, you have to take care of yourself in a time like this and sending messages that kind of will lead to a hi and bye situation right from the jump just tells me how much you really do care about yourself. So, if you don't care that much about yourself, you're not really caring about what you're going to put me through, so I'd rather not meet. So, thank you and goodbye. You don't get the hi. You just get the goodbye. (laughter) LB: That's a good one. I haven't heard that before and really looked into that now. AT:Yeah. I just made it on the fly now because it's, like, how do I talk about this? (laughter) LB: The hi and bye? AT: Yeah. LB: You just made that up? AT: Hi -- yeah. LB: You're brilliant! AT: Yes, made it up right now, right off the top of my head. LB: My gosh! (laughs) So, do you think, I mean, it's interesting that -- like, this is a question that I think people wrote before we were really in the thick of the pandemic. And really, in the grand scheme of things, we haven't been in it that long. But this is saying how has it affected your life? And, I mean, I can't think -- and for me and you, I don't think -- I think it's affected every moment of every day, you know? AT: So, yeah, I think -- for someone to say that it hasn't affected them, I feel like it's -- I hate to say it but it's somebody who's living in denial. LB: Yeah. AT: You know? You have to think about this. This is very serious. It's very -- it should impact your life in many, many ways and if you're going around and your life hasn't been impacted that much and you're not an essential worker who's just annoyed with having to put on extra protections -- I mean, those people still have to go to work every day. So, thank you to them for being on the front lines, you know, the first responders, all of that. But how can it not affect you in every single aspect? Like I said, it's -- I've seen videos of people -- this is really bringing out, like, the worst nature in people, I feel, especially with social media being present and the videos that I see of anti-maskers and just people thinking that their civil liberties are being taken away. And this is something that you can spread to someone else without even trying, without even thinking about it, just by doing your day-to-day activities. So, you know, this isn't just you protecting yourself. It's protecting those who are more susceptible to this. So, people who are more in danger of losing their lives. So, like, I look at it, like, you know, just because they have great immune systems and they think that this is all a hoax and that they'll pull through even if they get it, it's, like, what does that say about how do you care about your community and what, like -- and I don't even like to go to my mother's house. Like, she gets upset with me and I'm, like, "Mom, we're in a pandemic. No, I'm not visiting you every day. Like, that's not -- I'm not doing that." LB: Yeah. AT: Because my mom is the type that, in a week -- it's too much time for her. She says, you know, "I may die sometime soon" and she does the whole Hispanic woman guilt thing on -- (laughter) and now that COVID's here, she can be, like, "It can take me at any moment. You never know." Because she's diabetic, so she has a compromised immune system, as well, and I'm, like, "Mom, stop." (laughs) "For all I know, like, I could inadvertently bring this to you and it's because I care that you haven't seen me." So, you have to make, like, the tough choices. And it's just it's -- I think it's brought out the ugly in a lot of people and for somebody to say that it hasn't affected them on some level is just asinine. LB: Well, it's really impossible to not affect somebody because, after all, just the fact that you can't go to the grocery store without having -- noticing that there's a specific effect -- it's affecting, you know, whether we can get certain things, buy certain things. It's affected whether we can get into the grocery store without a mask. I mean, you can't go in without a mask. So, if you're -- and if you do wear the mask and you take it off or you're not wearing it, people will yell at you and they have a right to yell at you because you're really putting them at risk. So, how could you pretend that that didn't have an effect on you? Would be impossible to not do it. AT: Yeah. LB: I think, so, this is asking, like, are you staying in and are you limiting going out? I mean, have you been going to the grocery store and have you been going out to eat or what do you think? AT: I think -- so, my aunt loves the diners. I grew up with -- I always say my one aunt, she gave me a childhood because my dad was a homebody and my mom didn't drive. But my aunt, she loved going to the diners, loved traveling out of town. So, I was, like, with, I'm very -- those are the two cousins that I'm very, very close with (inaudible) so I always say she gave me, like, a real fun childhood. And so, you know, I'm like that person that, like, will be sitting at a diner with my aunt at, like, nine p.m. at night, drinking coffee before bed. (laughter) Like, that's just, like -- yeah and it's not even just, like -- it's just the repetition of it, right, because we have that bond with each other and we've changed that. So, her coming here sometimes for coffee. Like, we'll visit each other but we haven't really gone -- I think we've been to one diner since we've been in the green. And they were very good about, you know, having your mask on when you came in, the server wore the mask at all times, and then when the food came, you could take your mask off, you can eat, and we made sure that we didn't make it a point to kind of hang out in there like we kind of do and have, like, five cups of coffee or four, you know? Like, we were in and out. But we kind of needed that just to get a little bit of normalcy. But I will say, like, it's definitely -- we've been, again, to one since this all happened. But we're definitely not in a rush. We have found other ways to, like, have our coffee together -- LB: Good. AT: -- in a safer way. And I think that's what more people should kind of pay attention to if -- you know, forget normalcy. Normalcy's gone, right? LB: Yeah. AT: What can you do to help others? And for your mental health, if you have to do things, what is the safest possible way that you can do them? So, that's -- I'm trying to lead by example, even, like I said, even when my mother wants me to come over. I'm going today but then she won't see me until, like, next week or maybe even two weeks after that because you just don't know, you know? LB: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was talking to somebody who sort of takes care of her eighty-eight-year-old -- you know, her parents who are in their eighties and they were, like, "You have to come over, you have to hug us." And she said, "Okay, you can't go out and I can never go out because I don't want to be the one that kills you." AT: Right. LB: Who wants to have that over their head for the rest of their lives? AT: I know I don't. LB: No kidding. So, this says whatever queer activities have you been doing? And it's funny that you and I do queer activities all day long every day, so -- AT: Right. LB: -- it's hard to find something that isn't queer that we're doing, so -- AT: Right, well, I mean, I did -- since we are in the green, I did perform this past Sunday at a very limited seating kind of place. I did have, like, a face shield on, so that was -- it was fun to do but it was still a little scary. LB: You bet. AT: Just because -- you can't ignore this just because things seem to have gotten better. LB: Yeah. AT: Just because something's a certain way doesn't necessarily -- it is that. Never take anything at face value, you know?LB: No, nothing. AT: Take -- LB: Where were you, where -- AT: I was in York, Pennsylvania. LB: Where? AT: York, Pennsylvania. LB: Oh, York. York, yeah. AT: Yeah. There was, like, some sort of, like, hookah lounge kind of show thing where they kind of wanted to try an LGBT night there. They had just opened, which I thought -- which was kind of what helped me say, like, okay, like, I'll do it. Secretly, I thought it would be canceled because of COVID and, of course, they didn't cancel. And I'm, like, well, now I'm in a pickle -- LB: Amazing! AT: -- and I have to go. But I will say that they just opened. I think they've been open one weekend and we were that Sunday and they made sure that they included an LGBT night from the start, which -- LB: That's cool. AT: -- I thought -- really nice of them. So, I kind of -- you know, I took my risk, I took my chance. I went out there, I was just safe as possible. I performed and I just wanted to show up and kind of let them know, like, you know, we're worth having. Like, we're not going to -- we understand you're running a business but we're worth having in your establishment, so thanks for thinking of us and thanks for giving us opportunities to perform and to work during this time, and in a safe place, because they were taking temperatures at the front door, as well, and people did have their masks. I mean, they were doing, like, their hookahs and stuff but, like, you know, for the most part, everyone had, like, their masks on and temperatures were checked at the door, metal detector, all that good stuff. So, they were really impressive. LB: Were there a lot of people there? AT: I want to say there was probably about twenty to twenty-five people there, so not too many. It wasn't like a normal, like, nightclub gig where I can come into contact with maybe, like, two hundred people in one night, especially being an entertainer. They had Lysol spray ready for the money as we were, like, collecting because money's very dirty to begin with -- LB: True. AT: -- you know? And, like, to tip you. So, you know, there was Lysol ready for, like, the money and stuff like that, hand sanitizer for right when you came offstage. Like, it was fun and I think people were just happy to have that tiny bit of normalcy with a little bit of extra intertwined with it to keep them safe. LB: And when was that? You did it yesterday or -- AT: Sunday. LB: Sunday. AT: Yeah. So, I drove after the show, late at night, and then I was up bright and early, eight a.m. on Monday to help get -- or, well, now, I shouldn't say help to get to work. LB: Yeah. AT: So, I [virtual arrive?]. LB: Now, he does something that's drastically -- I think is very different from -- than you would normally do. But you're getting up a lot earlier than you normally do. AT: Yes, I am because I don't -- LB: [All the time?]. (laughter) And also, there's other reasons, too. Explain why that is. It's not just because you're home. AT: Well, I mean, I feel like being home is a big part because, like, what could -- there's only so much you can do in your home. So, I hate to fall asleep on the couch. I like to ride the wave in my bed. So, I kind of lay down -- think at nine or ten o'clock at night. So, watch TV in bed. That way, if that sleepiness comes, I can ride it to the morning. LB: Right. AT: The center is usually open from ten to six but I really enjoy getting up earlier to -- having a little bit more of the day, just seeing -- I love the sun. I love -- I've been up to Rainbow Mountain a few times, socially distant, of course, to, like, sunbathe and, like, get in the pool and stuff like that. So, I like to at least have a little bit left of my day of daytime, because I don't know if you're anything like me. When the winter comes, it's, like, so depressing because we leave and it's dark outside when we leave work. LB: Yeah, know just what you mean. AT: Yeah. LB: I walk home and then I walk home in the dark. AT: Yeah. LB: [We keep doing that?], yeah. AT: You do. LB: And even if it's just five o'clock and I don't even -- I don't usually leave -- and if I leave at six o'clock, it's always dark. So, yeah, no question. AT: So, I love, yeah, I love the sun and I love -- and, like, I just -- I don't know. I just feel like I get more accomplished getting up earlier in the morning. (laughs) LB: Yeah. AT: So, I mean, if I had it my way, I'd continue. LB: I think one of the things that we've done in the past, I mean, our center does that for a lot of reasons, I think, when -- and I was -- I have to admit, have to confess, I was the one that made that happen because Adrian wanted to be nine to five and I said, "I'm not coming in before ten." AT: Yeah. LB: And actually, I think that that's turned out to be better because we're there until six, which covers a lot of our evening programs. So, we don't have to -- a lot of people don't have to do extra stuff. We often have an evening program that's done by six o'clock. And also, I know that this is true for Adrian although he probably curses this at some level, but he often likes to have -- he has a lot of meetings before he comes into work. Doesn't do that -- now it's all different but I'm liking leav-- you know, coming, doing stuff earlier in the day, too, I think. But I don't tend to do that as much when I'm at the Center. I actually want to have time before to do stuff. AT: Right. LB: So, you know, you can have a -- AT: Well, it did used to help sometimes, like, if I had to schedule, like, a checkup, like, a doctor's appointment or something -- LB: Sure. AT: -- scheduled at eight thirty and then still be able to get to work on time. Like, yeah, that was definitely a perk -- to having that. LB: And you can have -- like, I could have -- so, since I walk to work, it takes me a while to walk to work. Takes half an hour. Can take up to half an hour. So, you know, otherwise, I'd be leaving at eight thirty and instead, I leave at nine thirty, you know? But it does -- like, I can get up and I can get things done before work. And sometimes, I don't have the energy to do it after work. That's what -- AT: Yeah. LB: -- another thing, too. AT: And I think running indoor evening programs are -- right? It's, like, a really good thing to have, too -- LB: Yeah. AT: -- because it's, like, who wants to go home for two hours and then have to come back? LB: Oh, gosh, yeah, that would be horrible. AT: The show starts at seven or eight o'clock at night, so -- LB: Right, right, starting so early and then going all the way until eight o'clock. Now that's you're doing a 12-hour day. So, it's tough. (laughter) Well, it's worked out. I think it's worked out okay but I can see why everybody's changed their hours now that we have these much more flexible hours. There's sort of that core time and then we have the flexible hours. Think that's working well for people. AT: I think so. LB: So, what's the biggest frustration or fear you have or challenge that you've had during this time? I mean, are there -- that are just so frustrating for you? AT: Honestly, other people who don't take this seriously. LB: Yeah. AT: That's my big -- LB: Everyone has said that. AT: -- especially when it's family. Yeah, that's a -- LB: [Grandma?]. AT: Yeah. I do have a brother who -- I have two brothers but they're both, you know, there's no logic behind their statements. You can just tell that they have a lot of friends who think this is a hoax. So, like, you know, they don't do their own research and they don't understand things. So, of course, they're, like, "Yeah, no protesters get it but people at the beach do. This is all a conspiracy." And I'm, like, "Yeah, well, just God forbid one of, like, one of your daughters, one of my nieces or, like, my nephews, one of your kids gets sick with this or something and then you might be singing a different tune." And I don't wish that on anybody. LB: Right, but -- AT: But it's, like, what is it going to take for certain people to, like, just take this serious? This isn't about you anymore. It's not just about the economy. It's about someone's life. And you never know how you contracting this and you spreading this can affect someone else. So, just take it seriously. LB: Yeah. AT: You don't want to wear a mask? Stay at home. LB: Yeah, (laughter) I've always -- I mean, I know I've told you before that in 1918, my grandmother died and she was thirty-two years old at the time. And my father was four and he, then, grew up without a mother and -- because in the flu epidemic of 1918, most people who got it were between the ages of twenty and forty and she was right in the middle of that time. And people would say, well, you know, that's one hundred and two years ago. How does that affect you? And I said, "Well, you think it doesn't affect me to have had a father who didn't have a mother, you know? And who grew up -- his father immediately left to -- went to South America. He was raised by his grandparents, who were quite old. You know, and it affected every minute of his life. He didn't have a mom. And that would affect me. It ultimately affected me, too. In fact, and like people -- most of my friends had two grandmothers. I didn't. I had one. And I could have -- so, that would have certainly have been a possibility and gone through that various different -- the circumstances that one has when you have two grandmothers and you have a father who has [had parents?] -- he wasn't a bad dad but who knows? And I also think now, I'm really strongly believing that she was pregnant when she died because most pregnant women who -- when they -- if pregnant women in 1918 got it, seventy-two percent of them died. AT: Oh, wow. LB: Really affected pregnant women. And other people in her family didn't have it, so I think it's likely. She was the age to have had a kid and I think she was pregnant. So, now, I'm thinking, like, okay, I didn't have, my father didn't have brothers and sisters, so I didn't have cousins, you know? How that affects -- like, I don't have very many cousins. I only have three cousins in the world. You have a million cousins in the world. Literally a million. AT: I'm still meeting them. (laughter) LB: At this very minute you may have a -- AT: There might be one being born right now, I don't even know. LB: Could be happening right now. And that's another thing, too. I think people don't even think about what could be happening to children that were born if their mother or their father had had COVID, maybe asymptomatic. We don't have any idea how that will affect people, so, [all these?]. AT: And, you know, I think, you know, I like to say I think God. But, you know, whoever's in charge up there but -- LB: Yeah. AT: -- my friend who -- she works at St. Luke's. She just had a baby a few weeks ago but she works with COVID patients day in and day out and she did it during -- throughout her full pregnancy. And thankfully, she's, you know, she's never contracted it. She was tested all the time and she's been good. So, that was a blessing. But that's what your story reminds me of and it's, like, you know, regardless if it's 102 years ago or if it's, like, now, you know, family is family and, like, stuff that happens to your grandparents can affect you, [because?] shape or form is because, you know, what happens to them happens to their children and happens to their children's children, you know? Life is tough as it is. LB: Right. AT: Less people doesn't make that equation any easier, so I totally -- I understand what you're saying there. LB: So, like, you always seem like such a normally even-keeled guy. (laughter) You think this is affecting your mental health? AT: I feel like in the beginning it did because I was a little more -- I was on the worried side. But the more, like I said, the more people I had -- were able to talk to -- like, as you know, we had our staff meetings, like, every day. So, I had human interaction at least once a day for at least an hour. I had, you know, my family time on, like, the Zoom calls. I had my -- after everything started getting a little clear -- not in the beginning but as we started to move into, like, the yellow phase where we could be, you know, socially distant, twenty-five people or less, like, in a public space -- I wasn't going to public spaces but I made sure I had my Instacart deliver -- make sure I had my eggs and my bread, my coffee, and my aunt, you know, would come over every once in a while. We would have our coffee on my porch, you know? So, I think finding like-minded individuals who really do take this pandemic seriously, who you can -- and it is a risk. And I hate to say it like that -- who you wouldn't mind risking maybe spending a little bit of time for -- LB: Yes. AT: -- has really made a difference. I couldn't imagine me being somebody who has been -- I've been single for a very, very long time and I live alone. And, yes, I have family but had -- we not been taking those risks, I think if I would have been stuck in this house with just, like, work and a PlayStation, I think I would've went a little crazy. LB: Yeah. AT: I would've been a little stir crazy. I don't like to walk anywhere. You probably would have seen me walking all around the blocks, (laughs) just taking walks with a mask on because, yeah, people -- it's important, especially for those who live alone, like, people like me -- and you have to be safe and if you're going to take a risk, just know your facts, take your precautions. And it's possible to still live in this world but not if you're going to walk around and act like this is a hoax because it's definitely not. LB: Yeah. AT: And so, just something I want to draw home. If you want to take the risks, that's fine. But just make sure you do it responsibly. Make sure you take every precaution possible. LB: Yeah, and the likelihood of people -- I mean, it's so easy to be frustrated at people who will say, "Well, I don't care if I get sick." And you're saying, "Yeah, but you're going to make other people sick." AT: Yeah, and they don't get -- LB: Yeah. AT: That's usually where the [hoax?] line comes in. "Oh, well, I'll be fine if I get sick." Well, okay, what about people you're passing in the grocery store? LB: Right. AT: You know? What about that elderly individual that, you know, had to stand next to you in line and you were playing with your phone and you didn't pay any attention and you're standing, like, really close to them? And, like, what if you, like, sneeze on them or something? LB: Yeah. AT: And now they're dead, you know? Like, I think, like, people don't understand, they don't grasp that concept. Like, they're dead. Somebody can die. Like, this isn't just, like, a regular flu. Like, yes, I know there's flu shots and stuff like that but people are dying. LB: Yeah. AT: And just because it's happening in mass amounts, don't let the charts and the numbers desensitize you into -- caring for other human life, like, that should be your number one priority -- is not only protecting yourself but protecting those that you love and the people that are around you. And even those you don't know. LB: I know. AT: Sorry, I (inaudible) LB: And including -- if you get sick, too, I mean, you're going to seek out healthcare. So, now you're putting all those healthcare workers at risk. AT: Yes, absolutely. LB: And that's a terrible thing. You know, lots of healthcare workers have gotten sick. I know healthcare workers who have been sick. And horribly sick. Just horribly sick and devastatingly sick. It's terrible stuff. AT: I had a cousin who actually contracted COVID and an uncle. They're not in the same home but my aunt -- they worked at a retirement home and my cousin does home care. And she's one of the strongest people I know. Like, if there was anybody to, like -- that I would say could be in, like, a gunfight and take, like, two bullets and just probably, like, still, like, mess everybody up and then make it to the hospital and be okay, it'd be her, you know? And I hate to use that as an analogy but I just need you to understand, like, this -- LB: Yeah. AT: -- my cousin is -- she is a woman of very strong resolve and she's just a tough one. And I got text messages from her and then she was just scared to death. She thought she was going to die because that's how sick she felt. And, yes, it affects everybody differently but her body was, like -- her joints, like, her body, everything hurt. She had a fever, you know? She could -- it was tough. It was real tough. LB: She had -- AT: And then for me to see somebody that tough feel that way, so defeated. I'm, like, oh, my God! LB: Did she have somebody to take care of her? AT: Yeah, she had -- oh, well, she lives -- Her mom, like, her, her mom live in the same place and she has a 10-year-old son. So, mom took over the son and she stayed quarantined in her room and then she just -- she wasn't allowed out. Like, they might as well have put, like, caution tape up. Like, she was not coming out of that room unless she had to bathe or -- and she even went for walks just a little bit because she said just laying there, even though everything hurt, she didn't want to get complicit in just laying there and taking it, because that's the kind of person she is. So, she would go for a little walk every day, which she said really, really helped her but -- and then, you know, as soon as she was cleared with the timeframe -- her symptoms went away. She couldn't taste or smell anything. And she loves her food, so she was really upset about that, too. (laughter) But as soon as she was all clear, they did a thorough, thorough cleaning of, like, the room and thankfully, knock on wood, my aunt and her son never got it. LB: Wow! AT: They were tested and they came out clear. So, they did something right, you know? It's a shame that she had it but it could have just as easily turned into three people having it just because she does home care. LB: No kidding. AT: Yeah. LB: Yeah, I know whole households of people that got it and I also know that -- people who got it who could not have walked. They couldn't have walked. They could barely walk to the bathroom. They had to crawl to the bathroom. AT: Yeah, it hits everybody differently, you know? LB: Yeah, it does. And a lot of people who have died who were by themselves, you know, they couldn't care for themselves. It's not like they could get up and take aspirin or, you know, get up and -- AT: And then, they're saying that there are certain aspirins that you just can't take because it makes it worse. LB: Right, right. AT: Because her headaches -- she suffered through -- her headaches, she said, were the worst at night. Her head just felt, like, huge. It was just, like, constantly pounding, yeah. LB: Oh, that's awful, awful. So, are you scared about getting it? AT: Yes. LB: Yeah. AT: Absolutely. Everyone should be. LB: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, what, of all the stuff that you've been doing, what's the best thing that's been happening? Is there anything -- like, some people will say, "I'm such an introvert, I really love this, I don't have to talk to anybody." (laughs) AT: Well, okay, so I -- see, I do love going out but secretly, I do have a little bit of my father in me. I am a homebody. So, working from home, I think, has been great. So, that's a good distraction for eight hours of my day. I like video games. Some people don't. I enjoy them a lot. It's really easy to, like, get lost in a video game. You feel like you've been playing it for, like, an hour, an hour and a half, and then you look at the clock and it's, like, two in the morning and you have to be up at eight and you're, like, oh, my God! LB: Yeah. AT: And then you're, like, I started at seven o'clock. How did it become two a.m. already? But, yeah, playing some games that I have, just making just normal stuff that I wouldn't have the time for now, like, for myself to enjoy like I do, so -- LB: Ah! AT: -- rhinestoning costumes, you know? Like, masks. (laughs) Little (inaudible) LB: You rhinestoned that yourself? AT: No, but I could. LB: Okay. (laughs) AT: But I don't want to do this. I'd rather do a costume. LB: Yeah. AT: These are the hardest, because they're so small. LB: Oh, yeah! AT: They are very, very small. LB: Cool. AT: So, yeah, there's quite a few stones on there -- LB: [So, I know?] -- AT: -- but just -- LB: -- this is great. AT: But, yeah, you know, just working on costuming, learning new music for whenever we can open back up and not be -- LB: Right. AT: -- as scared of COVID, when we know more, when there's, you know, hopefully a vaccine that we can take for this. I know some people are skeptical and they're anti-vaxxers. But I don't know (inaudible) LB: It's probably hard -- it's hard to imagine how we can stop this -- I just read -- Trish just read a thing that said that if every person in the country wore a mask every single day for the next -- you know, three months, it would be gone. It'd be over. AT: Eradicated. LB: But people won't do that. We can't have [them?] do that. So, the only other way to do it is have almost all the people have vaccines and require the vaccines because, you know, we -- that's how we got rid of polio, that's how we got rid of smallpox, it's how we got rid of most measles. You never hear measles outbreaks anymore. AT: "How dare you ask me to inconvenience myself for three months with a mask, it just" -- LB: I know! AT: -- "it's civil liberties, for crying out loud!" LB: Yeah, like -- and, you know, I have a friend who said -- AT: That was sarcasm, in case nobody caught that in the interview. But I'm just, you know, (laughter) disclaimer. (laughter) LB: Good. One person said, like, "I can't wear a mask." He said, you know, "And that it's not fair that the government makes you wear masks." And she said, "You know, the government makes you wear clothes." AT: (laughs) Yeah. LB: It's, like, really, if you think about it. AT: Oh, yeah! LB: And, in fact, people probably wearing clothes in their house! (laughs) We wouldn't even think about not wearing clothes, even if nobody was going to see us. AT: Right. LB: You get up in the morning and you put on clothes and nobody even thinks about it! AT: And you know what? I thought of, you know, over in China, especially with -- like, you see -- like, I saw it a lot in movies and I had to kind of, like, look into it a little bit. But, you know, and I never realized that, like, in certain areas, the pollution is just so bad that people wear masks to begin with anyway over there. LB: Yeah, yeah. AT: You know what I mean? So, it's just you got to -- tough! Get used to it. You got to do it. LB: Yeah, it's -- AT: You know? LB: -- not that hard. AT: It's not just about you anymore. It's about us. LB: Not really hard. It is like one of the least not hard things you can do. I mean, it's not like saying to people, okay, everybody has to lose twenty pounds, (laughs) you know, or everybody has to, you know, go to college and finish it and pay for it themselves, you know? Nobody's saying that, you know? So, it's so amazing to me that people are so reticent about it. And part of it's political, too. AT: Of course. LB: You know? AT: My favorite are the people who say, "Well, you know, I read online that if I wear the mask, the C02 levels, [that just?] they're really bad for me." And I'm, like, "Okay, so what do you say to the doctors and the nurses who have to wear this sometimes for ten, twelve hour shifts?" LB: Yeah, yeah. AT: "They do this daily, sometimes for weeks at a time without a day off, especially without a day off now because people like you won't wear the mask. How do you think they feel?" LB: That's right, that's right. AT: Oh, gosh, and then they always say -- same people usually post, like, "Oh, I went -- my friend went to the doctor. My friend, like, John went to the doctor and they put their mask on and they put the little thing on and then their CO2 levels, like, skyrocketed and then, like, their blood pressure went up." And it's funny because it's the same exact story but the name always changes. It was John, it was Mary, (laughter) [Sue?]. But everything else is the same except for the name. And I'm, like, yeah, your friend, I'm sure. LB: Yeah, I got to tell you that Trish, we went to -- she had to have, like, a consultation with a specialist doctor today and she -- it was just a check thing and she'd had some tests and she had some lung stuff and they wanted to see how serious it was. And it turned out that it's pretty good. Everything is pretty good. But they wanted to check to be sure that she has enough oxygen in her blood because she's older and stuff like that. So, they make her -- you know, we're both wearing double masks because we're so paranoid. And the doctor was, too. He was wearing two masks. And they're very, very careful there, you know? They test you outside and you can't even get into the building. And then -- AT: The 10 minutes before, right? LB: Yeah, and they -- and, like, I didn't touch the doorknob. I had, like, a Kleenex that I opened the doorknob -- and then, we -- and I threw it away on the way out. And then, they make you wash your -- you know, put stuff on your hands and they take your temperature right away again. And then, they come in and they said -- we went into the room and then they said to Trish she had to walk up and down the hall, this was a test, with one of those things on her finger. She's seventy-five years old, you know, and they were concerned that the number -- meaning that her oxygen level in her blood would go down. They didn't say anything about the mask. And they said, "If it goes below eighty-eight, then we have to try a different thing." And so, she started out at ninety-seven, she's wearing the mask, she walks up and down for six minutes as fast as she can go. And it's at ninety-seven when she starts and when she's done it's at ninety-seven. And she's wearing the mask! (laughter) So, hello? AT: [So, take it to?] John, Mary, Sue, David, whoever your friend's name was (laughter) (inaudible) pasted that into. LB: Yeah. AT: Yeah. LB: So it didn't have anything -- it didn't influence that at all. So, I actually saw this happen. It didn't make her CO2 levels go up higher in her blood, it didn't do anything. And they were specifically testing for that, so -- AT: They're, like, "Oh, you're breathing it back in!" I'm, like, "Well, does your mask fill up like a balloon where the air stays in it? (laughter) Or does it actually escape through the sides? I'm asking for a friend. [That's why I'm here?]." LB: Have you been wearing a plastic bag over your head? (laughs) Stop wearing the -- you know, don't -- AT: [It's like I'm?] -- LB: -- [go to a cheap?] -- AT: -- I have a -- LB: -- plastic bag. (laughs) AT: I think it sounds good initially in some people's minds but then, like, they never replay it back. And it's, like, do you hear yourself -- AUTOMATED VOICE: It's three o'clock. AT: -- and hear what you're saying, like -- oh, it's three -- sorry, that was my computer. LB: That's okay, that's okay. AT: But -- LB: It's so funny because my sister even said some -- one of those things. Like, she said she thought that the -- and she never fussed up like this. And she said she thought the camera in her computer was watching her. And I said, "Well, is it on?" And she said, "No." I said, "Well, come on! I mean, unless you're downloading a bunch of really hacky programs that are -- you know, have you downloaded a lot of programs?" I said, "This is exactly the kind" -- and I said, "Plus, if you have downloaded" -- she said, "So, I'm going to put a piece of tape over it." I said, "Well, you won't be able to do the Zoom then." (laughs) Well -- AT: Yeah, well, I mean, I know some people, they take, like, a clip and they'll cover their camera and then -- LB: I know -- AT: -- when they're done, they'll take the clip out when they're ready to -- LB: I know that they'll do that but the only way that that can happen is that if you have a lot of mal-- like, hacked stuff in your computer. Well, you shouldn't be ignoring that because there's a lot of other stuff that they can get out of your computer that's more than just the picture of you. AT: Yeah. LB: Like, every one of -- you know, your -- all sorts of your accounts and stuff like that. And so, that -- it's kind of like saying, well, I'm going to lock the gate but I'm going to leave the front door open, you know? That kind of stuff, so -- AT: Well, mine turns green when it's on, so I -- LB: Yeah, mine's on, you know? I -- AT: -- can see when it's active. LB: Right. And, yeah, but anyway -- and I'm sure that there are even possibilities of malware that can turn the light off, because apparently they can -- but you have to be doing things that make that happen. AT: Right. LB: I think people who play a lot of games and they're downloading games and different stuff like that, there's a potential for that because you are often -- AT: [I'm off on?] the PlayStation. I'm not playing games on my -- LB: That's right. If they're doing it with their computer, it's different than -- what's your game that you've been playing that's your -- AT: It's very violent. I don't know if I want to tell you. LB: Okay, then don't tell. AT: It's Mortal Kombat. LB: Okay, yeah. AT: Yeah. LB: It's not -- I don't know. AT: It's a very violent game but I -- I don't know. LB: (laughs) Well -- AT: Next question. (laughter) LB: So, here's the next question. Here's the next question. Let's see. And so, I've already asked you. You have people in your family that have had this. AT: Yeah. LB: And [your parents?] -- AT: And something I didn't -- well, if you -- actually, something I can add, since that question just came up, my aunt and uncle, the ones who got it, who are married, my aunt tested positive but she was asymptomatic. And her husband ended up in the hospital for three days. LB: Oh, my gosh, yeah. AT: On a respirator. LB: Yeah. AT: And he's back home and he's okay now but it was touch and go for a minute. And, like I said, they both work in a retirement home, so -- I think he worked in the kitchen and she worked on the floors, like, helping patients. And she was home, fine, and they were, like, "Well, you got to get tested." She's, like, "No, no, no, I feel fine." And they were, like, "No, honey, it doesn't work that way." LB: No kidding! AT: "You could have it." And then she was, like, "Oh, oh, okay." They did the test and, boom, positive. LB: Especially if she's working in a care home. She could wipe out everybody there. AT: Yep. So, she stayed at home, she quarantined, now she's fine. They're both back to work and they're both a lot more careful. (laughs) LB: Well, I wonder if they have antibodies, you know? Some people say that people asymptomatic don't build up a lot of antibodies. But he might have and that could actually make him -- AT: Might have -- LB: -- safer. AT: My cousin, her doctor said that to her. But I hear, like, that's something that a lot of doctors are iffy about. Some will say it without hesitation and the other ones will just say, "Well, we don't know enough about this for that to be true or not yet." Or, you know, so I think it's just, like, a matter of opinion. But I would think, like, with anything, once your body fights something off, it's no stranger to it the second time around, you know? My friend has -- rents out -- Florida, like, of his home. And one of the people who stayed there had COVID and he tested positive. He had to quarantine but then when he came for his follow-up test, he tested positive again. LB: Oh, wow. AT: And the doctor told him it's, like, "What do you wear, like, what are you doing?" He wears -- like, this guy has a fitted hat, so he -- even at home, while he was sick, this guy had the fitted hat on and he's thinking, like, oh, this will help me sweat everything out. Well, he never washed the hat correctly afterwards so, like, all that, like, sweat and stuff, he was just re-infecting himself every day with, like, the sweat from his cap. So, it was weird, yeah. LB: Yeah. AT: And, you know, of course, me, I don't wear hats so I'm, like, why'd you have a hat in the house? Like, (laughter) are you that into fashion that you were sick, nobody was going to see you, and you've been -- like, you're so used to having a hat that you had to put it on, like, while you were home? Like, I don't know, it's weird. LB: Well, it sort of makes you wonder about the whole level of hygiene, too -- AT: Yeah, yeah. LB: -- happening while he was there. You went on a trip. You went to California-- or to Florida. AT: I did go to Florida, yes. LB: And what was that like? What's it like in the airport? AT: It was okay. I was a little nervous. I was under the assumption that the flights would be only flown at, like, certain capacity. That flight was entirely full. LB: Whoa! AT: The lady next to me was not wearing a mask and, at that time, it wasn't mandatory. LB: Oh, gracious. AT: So, the flight attendants could ask you to put your mask on but they weren't enforcers so they couldn't force you to wear your mask at that time because it wasn't like it is now, even though it should have been. LB: Yeah. AT: There should have been -- I think we could all agree that this should've been handled in a better way back in January and February. But, you know, it was a hoax. But anyway, I digress. So, it was scary to me because not only was the plane full, the person next to me didn't have a mask on, and she insisted that she talk to me almost the entire flight. LB: Oh, gosh, oh! AT: And, you know, I'm a nice person so I'm just, oh, my God, this lady's going to get me sick, you know? And then, my nerves were wrecked, so I knew that the luggage wouldn't come out right away. It never comes -- like, there's no way you beat -- like, your luggage beats you to the carousel when you get off a plane. No matter how long it takes to get off that plane, like, your luggage just takes -- it feels like it takes forever. So, I went outside when I got there, just to kind of, like, be away from everybody and to keep an eye on the train. And these two women came out and they asked for a lighter because they wanted to have a cigarette. And so, they started talking and she, the one lady, goes, "Oh, I'm so happy to be here." And I said, "Oh, do you have family here?" And she says, "No, I -- these roots are terrible. I came down here because this is one of the only places that, like, they're doing hair." She went down there -- she took a whole flight, full of people, to get her hair done. LB: Oh, my goodness. AT: And then, the other lady, who she doesn't know, says, "Oh, my gosh, same! Only I came for a pedi." LB: Oh, my gosh! AT: And -- LB: Oh, my -- AT: -- there I stand. And I'm, like, just, good for you. LB: Holy crap. AT: Good for you, you know? Yeah, so I got my luggage and I got in my rental car and I left. (laughs) LB: Oh my gosh. AT: Yeah. LB: (inaudible) AT: It was -- down there, I feel like it was very willy-nilly. People were acting like it wasn't a thing. LB: Yeah. AT: They had, like, outdoor seating and stuff like that but it's just so hot in Florida that they weren't -- and they had the set-up. Let's say they were dressed for the part but not everybody was onstage. LB: Okay, yeah. AT: You know? LB: Yeah. AT: Stores were open, people were still shopping in stores. Like, Burlington was open and, you know, like, all that stuff. LB: But they had fifteen thousand new cases yesterday in Florida. AT: In one day? LB: In one day. I saw the thing and I thought that was how many cases they had in the state now for everything, because they had had a pretty small number. Yeah, they had, like, four thousand, something like that. And I'm, like, wow, fifteen thousand. And then, it says for today. AT: Yeah. LB: Was one day! They have five hundred thousand cases. They have half a million cases in Florida and they're still acting like it's not -- you know, their governor and everything [is a?] -- AT: They opened the bars for, like, one weekend. I think the weekend after I left, they were reopening, like, bars and that lasted, like, one weekend because they -- LB: Yeah. AT: -- like, you know, cases -- LB: And it -- AT: -- just started running rampant and people are, like, "Oh, well it was only a week ago." And it's, like, yeah, well, these people had it two weeks ago. LB: Right. AT: Like, (inaudible) LB: The hospitals are full there. And then, the governor is saying they're not and the people who are the heads of the hospitals saying, "Yes, they are! We don't have any more beds!" Come on, you know? People are going to die from this. It's crazy. AT: How frustrating must it be to be a healthcare professional -- LB: Yeah. AT: -- in this field right now. And you give the hardcore facts and you give the numbers and you give the data but somebody at the top just spins it, you know? LB: Right. AT: Like, you do everything, like, and you know what you're supposed to be doing. You're very well educated. You know what this is doing to people. You know how to get in front of it by being safe, at least, and they turn it into this, like, just political thing just so that people can not worry about it so that they continue to shop and so our economy stays intact. Like, I just don't get it. LB: Well, it's not a very attractive thing to see the kinds of cases they're having in Florida. And I think in the long run, it's going to destroy -- I mean, we can't -- Trish and I are talking about not being able to go back there for years. AT: I know. LB: And what are we going to do? We can't go there if -- and there's no end in sight. It's not going to end until there's, like, a mandatory vaccination. LB: Right. AT: Because -- or until we can be vaccinated. You know, if we're vaccinated, that means that then we don't have to worry if they really have a successful vaccine. But it takes a while to get a good vaccine. Course, the flip side of that -- that every single epidemiologist in the world is working on this. So, it's not quite like AIDS where nobody worked at it at all for the first three years that it was even -- existed. So, we're coming to the end of this. So, let me ask you one more question, because we're talking about -- I'm asking everybody about all the things that are happening now and a lot of other things are happening at the same time as COVID and we can't really separate that. So, I want to talk to you about Black Lives Matter and see -- you want to talk a little bit about that and what's happening in Allentown right now and what's happening in the United States right now and if you want to say anything about that. AT: Yeah, I definitely -- I know, in Allentown, a friend of mine who I'm very, very proud of, Justin Parker, has been leading efforts and protests. I have been to -- I did go to one protest but because of social distancing, I've been trying to stay a little bit away. I feel like I've already taken, like, a lot of risks when it comes to seeing family and traveling and doing -- like, I just did that show. So, it's, like, I don't feel that it would be responsible of me to actually be there unless, like, I actually had to be there. But please make no mistake, I am in full support of this movement. I'm very, very proud of my friend. And I've had quite the entanglement with some friends' parents over this online, you know? Public battles with them, just trying to explain to them the simplicity of why -- while, although you believe all life matters to be true, that you saying this at this moment in time is wrong. LB: Yeah. AT: So, that's been, like, arguing with a wall. But I don't like to troll people too much because I feel like to change someone's mind sometimes is not the easiest thing. So, it needs to come in the right form. So, random people, I don't entangle myself with too much. But when it's somebody I care about and somebody that, like, was an influence in my life and I see them kind of going in that direction, I kind of feel a little more inclined to, like, speak up about it. LB: Yeah. AT: People are hardheaded, you know? And I think the more of us who just band together and make ourselves known that we stand in solidarity and we support the protests, even if we help behind the scenes with organizing and, like, even if you can't make the protest, dropping off some water, dropping off -- you know, donating to the right people to make sure that there are certain things -- I believe that one of them, they were able to raise some -- a little bit of money, enough to, like, even feed some of the kids with, like, pizza and stuff that was, like, there -- safely, of course, everybody wearing, like, the proper stuff. But -- LB: Sure. AT: -- there are so many ways to support the movement and I, for one, am one of them. So, I hope everyone wakes up and they realize that this is just as dangerous as a global pandemic. If not a -- LB: Yeah, it's true. AT: -- United States pandemic, especially -- as COVID is. It's just as dangerous, to me, because stupidity is contagious. LB: Yeah. AT: I'll just say it like that. I mean, it's the end of the interview at this point. Let's skip the pleasantries. But, yeah, to close, I am very, very proud of my friend and I am a supporter of Black Lives Matter and I think we need to take it just as seriously as COVID-19. And the sooner people band together and people can start agreeing on what needs to be done and being comfortable with uncomfortable conversations -- is the only way that we're going to see any progress in either front. LB: Yeah, yeah, okay. AT: Because I could go on for hours but this is the end of the interview, so we're just going to leave it there. LB: I'm thinking, yeah, you know, I would let you go on for hours but I know you have to do work. (laughs) AT: I do! (laughs) LB: Yeah, and I don't want to be the one who's making you not do that stuff. So, I'm going to turn this off. I want to just thank you very, very much for doing this. It's been terrific. You're so animated, you're fun, and I loved getting to spend an hour talking to you because I don't -- AT: Yeah. LB: -- get as much time to talk to you now -- AT: I know! LB: -- and not having meetings every day and stuff. So, it's so fun to see you. AT: [Good to see you too?]. LB: And I'm going to turn off the recording now. We'll talk -- END OF AUDIO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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01:01:57
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Ariel Torres, July 14, 2020
Description
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Ariel talks about how the current COVID-19 pandemic is affecting him, his friends and his family, his work on the Pride Festival and other projects at Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center. He also talks about traveling, not being able to do his second job as a nationally known drag performer, his daily routine, and Black Lives Matter issues.
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PH40_10
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
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2020-07-14
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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f11e0591fc1a1dd33ddd11bb56f63fee
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
An account of the resource
In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Liz Bradbury
Interviewee
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Brian Jones
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_09.xml
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5.4 July 9, 2020 Brian Jones, July 9, 2020 PH40_09 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- ; COVID-19 (Disease) Brian Jones Liz Bradbury video/mpeg JonesBrian_20200709_FinalEdit_video.mp4 1.0:|31(14)|56(8)|91(8)|128(5)|163(15)|180(5)|199(5)|218(5)|241(5)|260(9)|281(9)|312(3)|331(15)|354(2)|393(9)|416(11)|437(4)|458(18)|565(5)|584(5)|601(16)|622(9)|649(8)|674(6)|701(8)|718(17)|751(12)|770(4)|805(14)|820(6)|845(18)|870(5)|895(15)|926(4)|957(7)|980(13)|1007(13)|1034(9)|1061(4)|1092(6)|1147(8)|1168(7)|1191(8)|1220(10)|1239(7)|1260(2)|1297(4)|1320(5)|1339(5)|1360(15)|1395(4)|1418(16)|1443(11)|1458(2)|1471(5)|1482(15)|1491(17)|1508(6)|1527(7)|1546(5)|1569(7)|1590(5)|1609(8)|1628(14)|1647(13)|1668(3)|1687(4)|1736(2)|1755(15)|1784(14)|1809(17)|1830(5)|1857(14)|1880(2)|1893(6)|1926(3)|1971(3)|2014(6)|2071(3)|2100(11)|2131(2)|2164(13)|2201(8)|2236(7)|2285(2)|2324(8)|2361(13)|2384(10)|2409(6)|2446(4)|2475(8)|2514(9)|2541(8)|2572(6)|2607(2)|2636(11)|2667(10)|2700(5)|2731(11)|2766(7)|2797(10)|2830(5)|2857(10)|2886(13)|2925(2)|2948(4)|2973(12)|3010(5)|3051(5) 0 https://youtu.be/6PlrM8a4hxg YouTube video English 48 Interview Introductions LB: Yeah, that’s what I’m going to do and I’m going to pin the video on you. So, that’s good, and so that every time I talk and I go “uh-huh” it doesn’t flash back to me because that would be bad. (laughter) So, now we’re on record, that’s good, and we’re on the audio, record, so that’s terrific. [...] 0 206 Connections to LGBTQ+ Community
 ; LB: And, okay, so now -- we have some demographic questions on this. So, what we do want to do is ask people how they identify themselves in the LGBT community. So, do you identify as a gay man or a trans person or a bi person or what do you think? Anything you want to say.
 ; BJ: I identify as a cisgendered gay man. 0 271 Work Life LB: So, we’re going to ask a bunch of questions. And frankly, I’ve got all these prompts. I sent you all of that information. I don’t have to ask you these things individually. And, in fact, I think it’s a little confusing. So, I think you should just talk about how you feel about it and what you think. So, like, you know, have you been -- it looks like you’re at work, so you’re working, so why don’t you talk a little bit about work? 0 454 Status of MCC Lehigh Valley During COVID
 ; LB: [Yes?] [inaudible] [I’ll say?]. So, in terms of this stuff -- oh, wait a minute. That’s not what I want to do. In terms of this stuff, what are you doing at -- because we sort of imagined these interviews as somebody looking at this 30 years from now and they’re saying what was it like during the COVID stuff? So, what are you doing there at the church? Is everything the virtual -- are people coming in at all?
 ; BJ: We --
 ; LB: Are you starting to see anybody there? 0 948 Virtual Worship Services / Changing Modalities LB: Yeah, so do you think that might continue after you’re vaccinated and not a danger, perhaps, maybe, you know?
 ; BJ: I hope so. I’m a firm believer that the model, [00:16:00] the church model that most churches have been following for the last one hundred years, this twentieth century model of how you do church, hasn’t been working for forty years. 0 1064 Connections to Individuals with COVID / Being an Essential Worker
 ; LB: Yeah. How ‘bout you pers-- well, okay, so let’s segue into this. I know a lot of people -- and this is not true for me but I know a lot of people who don’t know anybody that was sick from coronavirus-19. Have there been people -- and I don’t want you to HIPAA them, you know? But I would guess that because the community in the church has a lot of outreach and personal relationships that there have been people who --
 ; BJ: There have been. I personally have lost three people in my family -- 0 1398 Communicating with Family & ; Friends
 ; LB: Yeah. So, do you have other people in your family that you have to sort of help to take care of or is it not that kind of circumstance?
 ; BJ: No, it’s not really that. Everybody is pretty much in clusters, so, you know, my mom and my stepfather and my sister and her kids, they all live in the same house. And, you know, my brother and his family are altogether. And my grandmother who lives with my other cousin. [...] 0 1702 Finding Queer Community During the COVID Era / Finding Ways to Pass the Time LB: Yeah. So, we have all these questions on this list about, you know, like, do you -- are you still finding queer community and stuff. Again, you’re not having any trouble with that. You’re always around all that. 
 ; BJ: [laughs] No, I’m not -- but I see it. I can see it in the people who walk through the door, partially because the queer community, for so many of our folks, is their family.
 ; LB: Right. 0 1894 Working During the COVID Pandemic LB: Do you find, like, right now, there -- I think the world is also divided into two sets of people and it’s people who are working way less and then working actually more.
 ; BJ: Yeah. 0 1987 Switching Things Up / Facing Discrimination
 ; LB: (inaudible) (laughter) absolutely. And so, (coughs) and wait a minute, let me cough a little bit here. (laughter) So, do you think that, I mean, you’re talking about how this has affected you and how -- you’re talking about content that you’re doing and doing more outreach to people. What could you describe as, like, the one thing that’s totally different that you’re doing before that turns out that it works pretty well? I mean, you’re talking a lot about outreach but you were already kind of doing that at MCC through Zoom or whatever you were using as a visual platform. What do you think about that? 0 2121 Getting Zoombombed
 ; BJ: [...] But it seems to be working. I mean, we got our first Zoom bomb last week on bible study. So, somebody knows about it. (laughs)
 ; LB: So, tell about that because people -- 0 2474 COVID's Effect on Mental Health LB: And that’s definitely the case. So, yeah. So, for you, personally, you think this is a -- and you’re sort of expressing this, that this is influencing your mental health, I would guess. It’s certainly doing mine.
 ; BJ: Oh, absolutely. You know, when this first started -- I’m a fairly even-keeled person. I’m well put together, I’ve -- you know, everybody has their issues but I can deal with a lot of stuff. [...] 0 2824 Dr. Rachel Levine / Politics LB: And I think -- now, one of -- things we’re lucky about in our community and in our Lehigh [00:51:00] Valley and also in the whole state of Pennsylvania is we have a wonderful secretary of health in my opinion. And it’s been positive and I think it’s been positive for -- have you felt that way? I mean, to have Dr. Rachel Levine speaking as a trans woman but also speaking as the incredible voice of science and reason.
 ; BJ: Yeah, for me it has been -- Dr. Levine has been just a voice of reason and of competence.
 ; 0 3141 Black Lives Matter Movement LB: Okay, great. Well, I do want to talk about Black Lives Matter and I’d love to hear what you want to talk about because I think in the world, in the United States today, we’ve got political issues, we’ve got this terrible pandemic, and we also have some very significant race issues that people need to be talking about. And so, what do you want to say about that? I mean, people may not know that 30 years from now and they may not understand that, so let’s talk about that.
 ; 0 3783 Intersectionality of Being Black & ; Gay in the Lehigh Valley BJ: I had not been that angry before. Like, I remember saying to Goudy that -- Goudy is the pastor at MCC Lehigh Valley. And I remember saying to them, “I can’t do this right now. I can’t be here right now because I’m about to pop.” (laughs)
 ; LB: Yeah.
 ; 0 4259 Finding Hope LB: I appreciate that. So, I guess that we’re at the end here and, you know, if you want to go on, that’s -- or I’ll give you some more time to say whatever you want to say. But I did want to ask you, you know, sort of in the end thing: what’s the thing, you know, what’s giving you hope, what kind of hope and strength are you getting from anything now that we just talked about all the annoying people that -- [laughter] [calling you?] up with their they’re desperately hav-- I have to feel good because -- so, I’m going to talk to Brian, so -- [laughter] 
 ; 0 4573 Allen High School GSA / 2000 Pride Festival LB: That’s great. Well, I, you know, I think of you as a very young person because I knew you when you were so young. [laughter] And did you go to Allen High School? You went to Allen High School.
 ; BJ: I did, I did. 0 5215 Importance of Visibility & ; Community
 ; BJ: -- and open. You take the lumps that you’re going to get and you just keep on moving. I mean, it’s -- and I would ask you a question. Do you know, do you and Trish understand -- I know you do ; it’s just philosophical -- but I really think that what y’all do, what we do, what people like Steve Libby do, you know, what we do is life and death.
 ; LB: Yeah.
 ; BJ: Literal life and death.
 ; LB: I do know that’s true. 0 5434 MCC Lehigh Valley / Faith Community
 ; LB: Oh, you’ve done a great job at MCC. You know, I’m still recommending people to go to MCC. People will call me up and they’ll say -- and they’ve done this for years, because I’ve been answering the info line for twenty-two years. People call up and they’ll say, “I want to meet more people in the community.” Or, “I want a support group.” Now, we have support groups sort of now but not for just -- and I say, “You really need a support group or you just need to meet more queer people? [laughter] [Like?], meet other lesbians, for example.” And I’ll say, “You know, how do you feel about church?” “Yeah, I don’t have any problem with that.” “Okay, well, why don’t you go to MCC?” “Because they have to be nice to you there. It’s [work?]. (laughter) And they’ll shake your hand and then you can sit in the back.” And also, it’s every week. So, it’s not like, well, if I don’t have the nerve to do it this week -- 0 5737 Making Connections in the LGBTQ+ Community BJ: I would love to get your perspective on this. Even before COVID, had you been getting a sense that the LGBT community had -- I’ve kind of been getting the sense that the LGBT community had been coming -- disjointed. Not disjointed but -- that’s not the word I want to use. Disconnected. So, long-time institutions within our area closed over the last couple years. So, in cases like Diamonz and, like, 12th Street, what was it called? The bar on Twelfth Street.
 ; LB: Candida’s. 0 6468 Closing Remarks LB: [...] So, anyway, we’ve gone over the time but I loved talking to you! (laughter) And I’m so grateful that you’ve done this and it’s been wonderful to walk down memory lane, back to twenty years ago when we were --
 ; BJ: Twenty years ago! 0 MovingImage Brian Jones talks about the current COVID19 is affecting him and his family, his work at Metropolitan Community Church of the Lehigh Valley, how it is affecting LGBTQ people, Black Lives Matter issues, and what gives him hope Brian Jones 2020-07-09 LIZ BRADBURY: -- also, I'm recording on the computer and I can see that's going. I'm going to start the audio recording now, too, and that's good. So, I'm going to read you this stuff. This is the same stuff that I sent you in an email and it's -- oh, turn off my phone. (laughs) BRIAN JONES: [Well, my?] phone's on silent. LB: Okay, that's smart. I have to turn mine off because I'm still -- I don't like to turn it off until I get you, in case you have to call me. So, there you go. And I'm going to pin you. So, let's see, how do we do that pinning thing? Wait a minute. BJ: Think you -- LB: Yeah, that's what I'm going to do and I'm going to pin the video on you. So, that's good, and so that every time I talk and I go "uh-huh" it doesn't flash back to me because that would be bad. (laughter) So, now we're on record, that's good, and we're on the audio, record, so that's terrific. So, with this project, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community, collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. And, let's see, I did all the stuff I'm supposed to do. My name is Liz Bradbury and I'm here with Brian Jones to talk about his experiences in the Lehigh Valley community during this time of the COVID pandemic as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archives. Our project was funded from the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium. We are meeting on Zoom and this date is Thursday, July 9th, 2020. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today, Brian. And to start, can I please ask you to state your full name and spell it for me? BJ: My name is Brian Jones, spelled B-R-I-A-N J-O-N-E-S. LB: Great. And what is your birth date? BJ: June 5th, 1984. LB: Okay, and I also want to ask you: so, you're in Bethlehem now, I can tell by the background. BJ: Mm-hmm, [that's?] (inaudible) LB: Is that correct. I'm just going to write that in. Okay, that's good, because we have to put that in the metadata. Okay, so now, this is the consent part. Do you consent to this interview today? BJ: I do, yes. LB: Okay, wait a minute. Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable formats? BJ: Yes. LB: Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats including films, archives, websites, presentations, and other formats? BJ: Yes. LB: Yes. Do you understand that you will have thirty days after the electronic delivery of the transcript, which means delivery to you, to review your interview and identify parts you would like to delete or change or withdraw your whole interview? You think, oh, I hate this, I'm going to -- but please don't do that -- withdraw it from the project. BJ: I -- yes, I do. LB: Okay. BJ: Yeah. LB: And, okay, so now -- we have some demographic questions on this. So, what we do want to do is ask people how they identify themselves in the LGBT community. So, do you identify as a gay man or a trans person or a bi person or what do you think? Anything you want to say. BJ: I identify as a cisgendered gay man. LB: Okay. Okay, what's your ZIP code? BJ: My home ZIP code? LB: Well, yeah, where you live. BJ: Where I work? Oh, I never know that. LB: No, where you live. BJ: Oh, where I live -- LB: Where you -- BJ: -- 18052. LB: Okay. And how old are you? BJ: I'm thirty-six. LB: Okay, and I've known you a long time, Brian. BJ: Yeah, since I was at least fifteen. (laughs) LB: Yeah. How do you identify with the -- oh, I already asked you that. Okay. And so, in general, what -- so, I don't have to write that. Oh, I see why that's going -- this is my first COVID interview, so that's why I'm going slow here. BJ: Okay. LB: So, we're going to ask a bunch of questions. And frankly, I've got all these prompts. I sent you all of that information. I don't have to ask you these things individually. And, in fact, I think it's a little confusing. So, I think you should just talk about how you feel about it and what you think. So, like, you know, have you been -- it looks like you're at work, so you're working, so why don't you talk a little bit about work? BJ: Okay. Well, I work for Metropolitan Community Church of the Lehigh Valley in Bethlehem. And it's a congregation that primarily serves the LGBT community here in the Lehigh Valley. And I think, like a lot of organizations, non-profits, everybody, (laughs) we're doing the best that we can with the situation. LB: Yeah. BJ: It has been very interesting, difficult, disconcerting when your job is about community, when your everything that you do revolves around a community of people gathering and being able to support each other through the gatherings, whether it be during a Sunday morning service or a program that's after -- throughout the week or whatever it might be. When that is what you do, primarily, when you lose that, your communal identity suffers and goes through changes. You as a professional who is responsible for helping to create community, you kind of go through a -- what's your purpose, what am I doing, how do I do this kind of thing? So, it has been, work has been quite interesting for me, personally, at MCC Lehigh Valley, trying to maintain the ship, trying to keep things moving and going, but also mourning the loss of that connectivity, of those things you look for, too, throughout the week. LB: Right. BJ: It has been very -- it's been more isolating for me than I thought it was going to be. At heart, I am extreme introvert. (laughs) So, I'm used to -- I'm very, very comfortable being alone. I'm very comfortable being in isolation. But this is a whole 'nother ball game. (laughs) LB: [Yes?] (inaudible) [I'll say?]. So, in terms of this stuff -- oh, wait a minute. That's not what I want to do. In terms of this stuff, what are you doing at -- because we sort of imagined these interviews as somebody looking at this 30 years from now and they're saying what was it like during the COVID stuff? So, what are you doing there at the church? Is everything the virtual -- are people coming in at all? BJ: We -- LB: Are you starting to see anybody there? BJ: We are -- so, when we were in the red phase and the yellow phase, we were primarily doing everything online. And we are still doing almost absolutely everything online. Our worship services, we actually added another service in the week that we do online, on a Thursday. And all of our educational stuff is online. Since we've moved into the green phase, we have opened up the worship service to an extremely limited number of people. So, we only allow twenty-five people into the space and they must maintain social distancing. They don't come in until fifteen minutes before the service begins and as soon as it's over, they are out the door. And they are spread out throughout the sanctuary. That is the only real time that we have numbers of people come into the space. LB: They're wearing masks and stuff? BJ: Yeah, they're all masked. So, they're only in one Sunday, one day a week, on Sundays. And, you know, we did all the measurements and stuff in the sanctuary and we pretty much came to the conclusion that to give six foot radius around a person or a couple or, you know, whatever it might be, we really can only fit, max, thirty people into this space. It's a large room but when you count in twelve feet around somebody, it's a completely different ballgame. So, we -- they're masked, they come in, they sit, they're assigned seats, so that we, you know, we put them, we put the people where they can maintain social distancing. They're not able to get up and just go do what -- you know, it's a massive cultural shift, specifically for this community, which -- you know, the LGBT community is a close community. When you get in your pockets, you become really close to people. LB: Sure. BJ: And it's quite interesting to watch everybody have -- people who look at each other as family having to maintain that distance. You know, and in the Christian church context of things and how we handle worship, I'm the worship director, the musical workshop director here. And it's weird, you know? Music and singing and whatnot is very important to the Christian experience and act of worship and they're not allowed to sing. So, it's very, very weird to have people in a sanctuary when you are -- I've been doing this since I was a kid. I mean, we've known each other since I was a teenager. LB: Right. BJ: And I was doing it before I met you and I think I met you when I was fifteen. LB: Yes. BJ: So, I've been doing this for a long time and I have never led worship in a sanctuary with people in a room where they weren't singing back at me. LB: Yeah. BJ: Or they weren't doing the liturgy or anything like that. So, they're prohibited from doing that. I'm the only person in the room, when we're singing, who's singing. LB: Yeah, yeah. BJ: So, it's very interesting. It's a very weird experience. It's changed a lot and, you know, the process that we're trying to figure out right now is how do we maintain a sense of community with one another? And, you know, we're trying to get there, we're struggling, just like everybody else is. LB: Yeah, yeah. BJ: You know? And the options for people in a church setting, the options for people have quadrupled because they're all at home. So, you can, if you want to watch a worship experience, you know, places that were -- you know, we don't like using the words competition but we're, you know, it's a reality. And places that were never competition for us before are now competition for us. So, we're dealing with all that stuff. LB: I don't know that people in the future will understand what you mean by that but you're talking about, like, there's television church things that people can watch. BJ: Yep, and there's television church, there's, like, professional televangelist kind of church stuff. But, at the same time, the church around the corner from us, you know, who was not online four months ago is online now. LB: [Yeah, that's a good point?] -- BJ: So, you know, every church that is still trying to maintain has all -- every church has become a broadcast church. So, you know, people and places and things you had never seen before, you now can see and you're dealing with that. So, the need to improve your content, the need to -- it's conversations we have never had before, the need to improve your content, improve your quality, to improve, you know, what it looks like, what it sounds like, what it feels like are real conversations that we're having at the local church level -- LB: Right. BJ: -- you know, that megachurches would have. But at the local church level, when you have a congregation of maybe 100 people, you're not really having that conversation. But now, you are, so -- LB: Right, it's pretty interesting. It's a different thing. Of course, megachurches are now in that circumstance where they were broadcasting and then everybody's broadcasting -- BJ: Yeah, yeah. LB: -- so I wonder if that's influencing them, too -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- some ways. BJ: Yeah. LB: It's a whole different story. BJ: But the other thing is that what it has done for us, though -- I mean, we've had our online presence for a while. LB: Right. BJ: We were well-positioned to make this change, to be able to facilitate this change, and to facilitate it at a level, a quality level that other churches our size really couldn't do and a lot of them still aren't able to do it. But we can do multiple cameras and, you know, all that different kind of -- so, we have that going for us. But what it has done -- you know, our focus had been so much on the Lehigh Valley but we now have people who are engaging with us and worshipping with us who are in Poland and who are in Germany and who are in Canada and who are -- you know, so we're getting people from all over the place who are engaging with MCC Lehigh Valley. LB: Yeah, so do you think that might continue after you're vaccinated and not a danger, perhaps, maybe, you know? BJ: I hope so. I'm a firm believer that the model, the church model that most churches have been following for the last one hundred years, this twentieth century model of how you do church, hasn't been working for forty years. LB: Sure. BJ: And it became this -- not to get political but it became this capitalist kind of numbers game and that's what the value was, and how many people you'd get through the door, not, you know, how -- that's what it became. And when it becomes about that, it actually stops becoming about people and it actually stops becoming about what you're supposed to be doing. So, I think what has happened with COVID is that it has peeled back layers of institutionalism and systems that are about power and things like that. It's pulled back those layers of things and it's exposed you for who you actually are and what you actually can do. And it's making you, as a -- it's making us, as a community and as -- the church as a universal -- have to really step back and reexamine how we do what we do. LB: Yeah. BJ: And I think for the better. I think for the better. LB: Yeah. How 'bout you pers-- well, okay, so let's segue into this. I know a lot of people -- and this is not true for me but I know a lot of people who don't know anybody that was sick from coronavirus-19. Have there been people -- and I don't want you to HIPAA them, you know? But I would guess that because the community in the church has a lot of outreach and personal relationships that there have been people who -- BJ: There have been. I personally have lost three people in my family -- LB: Really? BJ: -- to COVID, yeah. LB: Oh, my gosh. BJ: The realities for minority communities -- LB: Yeah. BJ: (inaudible) Black communities, you know, those numbers that were coming out from the Black community about the spread of COVID, they weren't false statistics. The Black community has been hit really hard by COVID. LB: Yeah. BJ: And I lost a cousin, Eddie. I lost another cousin, Jaime. And I lost another cousin, [Sheila?]. LB: Oh, my gosh. BJ: Yeah, it was -- it's been very -- it's been a hard few months, because, you know, I've never mourned this way before. And in part, because in my family I'm a spiritual leader. I'm not just one for MCC Lehigh Valley but I'm a patriarch in my family already. And so, when something happens, I respond to those things. If there's a funeral in the family, well, somebody's going to call me to provide some kind of -- either music or song or help lead the service or whatnot. So, you know, I've done, so far, at least 10 funerals that were COVID funerals. LB: Yeah. BJ: I generally, in a year, might do fourteen or fifteen funerals. I've already done seventeen funerals this year -- LB: Gosh. BJ: -- ten of which were COVID funerals, three of which were my family. LB: Oh, golly. BJ: And eight of those funerals, eight, maybe -- I've been keeping these numbers in my head. Nine of those funerals that I did were on Zoom. LB: Yeah. BJ: (laughs) So, you know, it's a whole 'nother -- the thing that I will say about what COVID has done to my family and me personally is that it has taken away the ability for family to be family when you absolutely need family to be family, you know, when you got to watch your grandmother cry at a funeral through a Zoom video, it's a little -- it's tough, you know? LB: Right. BJ: So, I personally have lost three people. I know -- and they were -- so, in my family altogether that I know of, eight people have had COVID. Three of them did not make it. The other five have made it, two of which are really -- they're on the other side of it but it really is a beast for them. A couple of them, my two cousins who were positive for it, they didn't even know they were positive for it. Like, they didn't even -- they had no symptoms whatsoever. And because they were all in the same house, they got tested and they were positive, but nothing. They never had a symptom, never had any issues, nothing. But my uncle and my other cousin really struggled through it. Really struggled through it. So, yeah. LB: So, are you, in your own household, are you by yourself in your household, do you have other people in your household? What's -- BJ: It's just me, my husband, and my dog. LB: Okay. (laughter) Okay. BJ: Yes. LB: So, the two of you -- does he have to work, too? because you have to go out -- BJ: Yeah, we're both essential employees. So, I'm essential by nature of the church work. But I can work -- I can satellite from home more often than I can't. He works in warehouse work. LB: Oh. BJ: So, he goes in every day. My husband is the hardest working guy I know. Goes in every single day. And he was working for another company in the Lehigh Valley that he actually was a higher-up in. He was in, like, a management level. And when COVID first hit, the company didn't seem to be taking it seriously. And, you know, they were starting to get cases in the warehouse but they weren't reporting them, they weren't telling the employees that they were getting the cases. But then, the employees all knew because they all know each other. So, they would all -- like, somebody would get test, would be tested positive. And, you know, they would send a Facebook message to folks, "Listen, I tested positive for this. I'm going to be gone for a while." But nobody in the higher-ups would say anything. So, he and his department, a person in his department, tested positive -- that he was running. So, it was his department of, like, six or seven people. This person tested positive, had been close to all of them, and called out -- the company did not tell them but they knew because the person told them. So, they all quarantined themselves and they -- only two of them went back. My husband decided he's not -- they're not taking it seriously. LB: Did you say that your husband tested positive or he was tested? BJ: He was tested and he was negative but he stayed in quarantine because the person who had contracted it -- so, you know, he decided he just -- he wasn't going back there. He wasn't staying there. So, he moved to another warehouse where he is not a higher-up anymore. He's just a grunt at this point. But, you know, this place where he's at now, they're taking everything seriously, they have all the PPE, they have all the cleaning, the sanitizing stations and all that different kind of stuff. So, yeah, so we have -- it's just us and, you know, we both realize that because we both have to go out for work, him more than me, you know, he realizes that he's exposed, even with all the protection that they can give. But we've developed a whole system at home on how to come into the house and how to, you know, sanitize yourself and, you know, before you come in and get your clothes off and all that different kind of stuff, so -- LB: Right, yeah. BJ: -- just become a way of the world, I guess. (laughs) LB: Right, it has. We hardly go out at all. But if we bring things in -- I mean, once in a while, I have to go to the Center, I have to -- we had to go to a doctor's appointment or something like that. We come in and we take off all our clothes, wash all our clothes. BJ: Yeah. LB: It's -- you have to do that and -- BJ: What we do, like, we try to order as much into the house as we possibly can and try to avoid going out any more than we absolutely have to. LB: Yeah. BJ: You know? LB: Yeah. So, do you have other people in your family that you have to sort of help to take care of or is it not that kind of circumstance? BJ: No, it's not really that. Everybody is pretty much in clusters, so, you know, my mom and my stepfather and my sister and her kids, they all live in the same house. And, you know, my brother and his family are altogether. And my grandmother who lives with my other cousin. And so, everybody is all together. The weird thing is that everybody, my mom, my sister, they're all essential employees. So, my mom works for -- she's a care worker and my sister is, also. And my brother is a warehouse worker at my grandmother's, where my cousin, she's a nurse. So, everybody, we're -- everybody's out. And we're not just out but they're out in places where they can very well be exposed, so -- LB: Golly, that's really -- BJ: Yeah. (laughs) LB: I guess you're the perfect first interview to have. (laughter) I was afraid, you know, people, like, "Well, yeah, I'm not really going out" and -- BJ: (laughs) No. LB: (laughs) So, are you using, like, video technology with your family, too, like other people? BJ: Not really. We've been doing -- we've been mostly text and phone. LB: Yeah. BJ: You know, if we see each other, you know, my mom will come over to the apart-- to where we live but won't come in. So, we'll, like, we'll sit out in our yard and just chat. Or my brother and his kids will come over and the kids'll just run around the yard and we'll all sit out and grill or whatever. But we're trying to, like, maintain those familial relationships but also -- you know, it's weird to not be able to give my mom a kiss. LB: I know. BJ: (laughs) It's so weird. I think that might be the hardest part of it. Like, there are two people in the world who I -- when I see them, I must absolutely embrace them. LB: Yeah. BJ: And it's my mom and my husband and it's been so, like, so weird to not be able to do that. LB: Yeah, yeah. BJ: Yeah. LB: Yeah, I think, actually, if you can -- I think about people who are living alone -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- all the time and how must -- how that's just so hard. BJ: We, at MCC Lehigh Valley, one of the main reasons we decided that we had to at least open up the worship experience to a select -- a small number of people -- because there are so many people in the LGBT community who are, even in the best of times, isolated. LB: Yeah. BJ: And to be completely isolated from everything must be very difficult. I was talking to my guitar player here and -- single guy, lives alone, and I was asking him, you know, "How is this? How's it been?" He was, like, "It's been extremely hard." And he's someone with -- who does not have any emotional circumstances or anything like that and he's, like, "This is really hard on your mentality. It's really, really hard." So, I can't imagine. I really can't imagine going through it without anybody. LB: Yeah, I can't either. It's so hard. I mean, I have a sister who -- I taught her how to use Zoom so that I could talk to her. And I became aware, I said to my -- to Trish, "I have to talk to her more" because she's by herself and she's -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- so much older than I am, so she's really by herself. BJ: Yeah. LB: She does have friends where she is and she can go to their yard and stuff like that. But, yeah, it's tough. BJ: It's tough. LB: Yeah. BJ: It's tough. LB: Yeah. So, we have all these questions on this list about, you know, like, do you -- are you still finding queer community and stuff. Again, you're not having any trouble with that. You're always around all that. BJ: (laughs) No, I'm not -- but I see it. I can see it in the people who walk through the door, partially because the queer community, for so many of our folks, is their family. LB: Right. BJ: I mean, for so many of our folks. And I don't think we still -- I think we like to think, a lot of the times, be in this -- in 2020 that people are -- that things are somehow better than they were 20 or 30 years ago. And in many, many, many ways they are. They absolutely are. But people still lose their families, people still lose friends and, you know, all that different kind of stuff by affirming who they really are. And the need for the LGBT community to be community is still a primary need. It's still a primary need for us to be family for each other. So, that loss of not being able to go to Stonewall or not being able to go to, you know -- it's a big loss. LB: Yeah, right, right. BJ: It's a big loss. LB: Yeah. Yeah, it really is. So, are you doing anything that's -- besides, you know, your behavior is different, are you doing different things? You're thinking, like, let's start a new hobby because we can't go out and do these things. Seems like you've got a lot of stuff that you do, so I would guess that that's not something that you're doing, I don't know. BJ: I'm just getting better at trying to, well, trying to get better at the things I already know how to do. So, like the broadcasting -- creating content and broadcasting stuff and learning how to use all of those different softwares and things like that. I'm just trying to dig into that because I think it's going to be a vital part of where we go for the next couple years, you know? And so, that's what I'm doing. But I did, because we did just move to Whitehall and we have a little spot at our place that has a little garden nook. So, I decided, well, I got some time and let's get dirty. So, I started a little garden there. So, that's something new for me that I never did before. (laughs) LB: Do you find, like, right now, there -- I think the world is also divided into two sets of people and it's people who are working way less and then working actually more. BJ: Yeah. LB: You think you fall into either of those categories? BJ: I've been doing this at MCC for fifteen years now and I've worked really hard. LB: Yeah. BJ: I've never worked harder than I am working right now. LB: Yeah, yeah. BJ: I've never put in as much time as I'm putting in now. I've always done more hours and more time than what I'm supposed to do in a week. But the need is so high right now and, like I said before, my work has been to keep the ship running and keep us online and keep the content coming and all the different kind of stuff. So, it's just from one service to the next service, it's just trying to produce the next thing and produce the next thing. I mean, we're literally producing right now what amounts to two-and-a-half hours of television. (laughs) LB: Yeah. BJ: And that doesn't sound like a lot but that's a lot. (laughs) That's a lot. You know, there are people whose full time job is just to do one hour of something. (laughs) LB: Sure, half hour. BJ: Yeah. LB: (inaudible) (laughter) absolutely. And so, (coughs) and wait a minute, let me cough a little bit here. (laughter) So, do you think that, I mean, you're talking about how this has affected you and how -- you're talking about content that you're doing and doing more outreach to people. What could you describe as, like, the one thing that's totally different that you're doing before that turns out that it works pretty well? I mean, you're talking a lot about outreach but you were already kind of doing that at MCC through Zoom or whatever you were using as a visual platform. What do you think about that? BJ: What is new that we're doing that is working well? LB: So, I'm, like -- so, like, at some point, you might be going, like, let's try to do it this way and it turns out, wow, that turned out to be great! (laughter) Let's do that! Let's do more of that! Because we're finding that at the Center. We're finding certain things that we didn't -- like, we didn't think we'd be able to do any arts and cultural things. It turns out that that's been huge. The book club has gone from, like, six people to fifteen people. BJ: Oh, wow. LB: So, we've added all these other, like, author reading events and we have a poetry club now and, you know, where people talk about reading poetry books because they've been very, very successful. It's turned out to be very successful to do that. We have so many things we can't fit them into all of our social media platforms -- BJ: Okay. LB: -- which is interesting. BJ: Oh, I wish there was more that we were doing in that way. I mean, we have shifted most of the things that we were already doing as far as people connecting to each other to Zoom or to online, our Sunday schools, our education -- all of that stuff is online. I think we're surprised that that's working, just by the -- like, our bible study stuff, just by the nature of what it is it kind of feels like it's better to be in the room to be able to do it. But it seems to be working. I mean, we got our first Zoom bomb last week on bible study. So, somebody knows about it. (laughs) LB: So, tell about that because people -- BJ: I was not part of it. I was not there. I got the email after the fact. But we got what a lot of minority communities are getting with these Zoom bombs. So, we got at least -- I think it was some -- I think [Gaudi?] said something like ten people -- LB: Wow! BJ: -- chimed into the Zoom and they were writing, on the screens, anti-LGBT sentiments. LB: (inaudible) and this is in bible study? BJ: This was during our bible study. LB: Oh, gracious. BJ: So, what happened was they closed the Zoom meeting down and then they started it up again and created a waiting room so that nobody could just come in. And, you know, we did a check in with everybody who was there to make sure that, you know, they were okay -- LB: Yeah. BJ: -- and spent some time decompressing from that and then went back to bible study. You know, again, this new reality, people have really figured out how to be shitty. (laughs) LB: No kidding. No kidding. And, you know, just to put this in context, because I appreciate you talking about this, but, I mean, this is the sanctuary. This is the church. This is where people are supposed to go and feel totally supported and accepted and safe. And then, somebody does this in the bible study, for heaven's sakes. I mean, it's like a joke, you know? Like, if it wasn't so horribly serious and terrible, it could be like this joke. Guess what happened in bible study today? (laughter) You know? BJ: You know, Liz, the thing that -- I have seen people act their absolute best during this. I've seen humanity at its, like, okay, okay, here we go. And then, I've seen, like, just absolute depth of evilness through all of this. LB: Yeah, yeah. BJ: So, yeah, nothing really surprises me anymore. LB: Yeah. BJ: In fact, I -- this could be part of the conversation because I -- part of what I think COVID has done is also desensitized some of us to some of this stuff because there's such an onslaught of it that you just, oh, okay, just another day -- LB: [Crazy?] thing, yeah. BJ: Yeah. You know, a year ago, something like that had happened at MCC Lehigh Valley, the alarm bells would have gone off and, you know, all the wagons would have circled and all that. And right now, yeah, like, there was no -- there was, I think because so many of us are exhausted, (laughs) there was no, like, real -- there was a response, we dealt with it, we did what we had to do, we kept moving on. But normally, we would have, like, an outcry. LB: Yeah. BJ: And -- LB: So, did you think that that happened because you had posted the Zoom connection, the Zoom link in a public place and then people just got through it? Or -- BJ: I think so. LB: -- somebody that you send it out to actually leak it or somebody, like, in their household or something leak it? BJ: It could have been a bunch of things. You know, this happened -- when did we do -- we had Susan Wild -- LB: Oh, yeah, that was just last week. BJ: Just this past week. LB: Yeah. BJ: So, Susan Wild, congresswoman for this area, what I kind of think happened was we posted that and we sent that out to a bunch of places. LB: Yeah. BJ: And I believe that Susan Wild's offices sent that out, as well. So, I think that got our Zoom account out to a bunch of places. (laughs) LB: Got you on the radar. BJ: Yeah, got us on the radar of people. LB: All over the country, really -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- which is a very significant -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- yeah. BJ: And you never, I mean, people who like you are on your mailing list and the people who want to see you gone are on your mailing list, you know? LB: Right. BJ: So, everybody gets everything. So, it could have been a number of things. LB: Yeah. What a shock. I didn't even know that happened, you know? BJ: Yeah. LB: That's what I'm saying, because, like, you're right, if this had happened, like, two years ago, we would have been all coming out and doing (laughter) [if somebody had?] come into the church and done a -- well, I've done that! BJ: Yeah. LB: Trish and John are like -- "What is -- Liz and Trish doing in the church?" Said, "Well, you guys got, you know" -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- "got the anti-people out there," so we're there, you know? BJ: Yeah. LB: That's what we'll do. And now, we're, ah, what the heck, [it's happening?]. BJ: (laughs) Yeah, you know? LB: Gosh. I guess -- BJ: How things have changed, yeah. (laughs) LB: Yeah, there are times when -- and, I don't know, I guess we have to realize that this kind of discrimination happens to people all the time. And the older you are, the more you know -- [in this?] -- where it's happened. BJ: Yeah. LB: And that's definitely the case. So, yeah. So, for you, personally, you think this is a -- and you're sort of expressing this, that this is influencing your mental health, I would guess. It's certainly doing mine. BJ: Oh, absolutely. You know, when this first started -- I'm a fairly even-keeled person. I'm well put together, I've -- you know, everybody has their issues but I can deal with a lot of stuff. And I do not have a history of panic attacks or anxiety attacks or anything like that. When this first started for, like, the first month, I was not sleeping and part of it was -- I mean, every time I would try to doze off, I could feel my heart start racing and everything started, like -- and just anxiety to fall asleep because, like, if I fall asleep and I -- if I fall asleep, it's going to get me. (laughs) You know, it's that kind of thing. LB: Yeah. BJ: I'm going to wake up tomorrow and things are going to be completely different. The first couple months were really hard. The number of times having to hold my husband to sleep at night because he's, you know, breaking down, you know? And I had my breakdown, too, my crying fit, mostly wrapped around our families because we're very close to our families and not being able to go see them was really difficult, and worrying about them. It did very much wear on my mental health for a while. Now, I'm better. I think it's had time, the shock of it all has had time to settle in, and the reality that this is life for the time being has had time to settle in. The thing I think I'm struggling with right now that I'm trying to get under control for myself, just for my own personal day-to-day, is trying to get over being angry. because I don't know about you but -- LB: Oh, yeah, I'm furious. BJ: -- I am -- LB: I'm angry all the time, yeah. BJ: -- all the time. LB: Yeah. BJ: How in the hell did we get here? LB: Right. BJ: How did this happen and how do we have such ineptitude in our systems and things that should be dealing with this stuff and the anger of the ignorance of people. LB: Right. BJ: Of the lack of empathy and compassion. LB: Yeah. BJ: You know? This is a time capsule, right? So, the number of people who during this pandemic that have just decided that selfishness is the way to go. LB: Yeah, shocking. BJ: That not being concerned about the other person is good, that -- you know, and I work in the church community. And, you know, MCC Lehigh Valley is a very progressive, inclusive congregation. But I can tell you that from -- in the church world, church universal not MCC Lehigh Valley but just church universal, you know, you got some wing bats. (laughs) You got a lot of them who, for some reason, they can't deal with science, they can't deal with just the realities of how the world works because it's contrary to what a book says, which is not true in the first place but -- LB: Right. BJ: -- (laughs) but they've convinced themselves of that. So, you know, if the doctor is not a spokesperson for God so I'm not going to listen to what the doctor says, you know? Are you -- what? (laughs) LB: Yeah, yeah. BJ: It's, like, what? LB: Yeah, what? Yeah. BJ: It's, like, what? LB: Yeah. BJ: So, you know, a lot of this, I firmly believe that a lot of this insanity that we're dealing with -- my grandmother used to tell me that church folk are the worst folk. (laughter) And I've worked and been in church all my life and I agree with her. So, a lot of what we're dealing with in this country, in this Christian country -- LB: Yeah. BJ: -- if we didn't have so many self-righteous religious folk, we might be in a better situation. (laughs) LB: Yeah. It's interesting in that people don't always understand the concept of faith -- so, faith doesn't mean you just believe in things that aren't true just because you want it to be that way. (laughter) You know? BJ: Yeah. LB: And I think -- now, one of -- things we're lucky about in our community and in our Lehigh Valley and also in the whole state of Pennsylvania is we have a wonderful secretary of health in my opinion. And it's been positive and I think it's been positive for -- have you felt that way? I mean, to have Dr. Rachel Levine speaking as a trans woman but also speaking as the incredible voice of science and reason. BJ: Yeah, for me it has been -- Dr. Levine has been just a voice of reason and of competence. LB: Yeah. BJ: And, for me, her being a trans woman is just icing on the cake for me. But I'm just happy that there is an adult in the room. (laughs) You know, I'm happy that our -- the governor has put someone in a position that knows what they're talking about and is not going to be bent by needing to be liked or needing to meet some political agenda or anything like that, is just going to tell you, from what they know, from their expertise, what is real and what is not. And Dr. Levine has been that in Pennsylvania. And thank God for her because, you know, looking at some of these other places, some of these other states who have just sheep (laughs) in leadership positions? LB: I think that's a generous way of describing -- BJ: Yeah. (laughs) So, you know, Dr. Levine has been just competence. That's all I'm looking for right now: somebody who is competent. LB: Yeah, I just read -- now this is a little bit of -- partisan, but I can say that the candidate who is running against the President of the United States had -- and there's a meme that says, "I will read you my positions on all of these issues." And the response at the bottom is, "You had me at 'I will read.'" (laughter) So, you know, I mean, there is something to be said for somebody who is a leader, whether it's Governor Wolf here in Pennsylvania or Dr. Rachel Levine who gets up and, you know, "Where are the kits?" We're looking to somebody who'd come forward and say, "Okay, calm down." BJ: Yeah. LB: "These are the situations. Yes, this is hard." And if you look at the history of -- you know, the recent history of the last two hundred years, when we have people who are in leadership and they can calm the people down, they can say, "We have to work hard" -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- "we have to work together." BJ: Yeah. LB: "And this is dangerous but we're going to deal with it." BJ: That's just -- LB: "And I'm in it with you." That's what we want! That's all we want! BJ: It's -- LB: And [we're going to take that?] from either side of the aisle but we're not getting that. BJ: It doesn't matter which side. No, I mean, the -- I was, when the pandemic first started, I would occasionally be going to MCC or from MCC. And where I was living before, I had to go by Bucky Boyle. And I would occasionally just go to Bucky Boyle and sit there and look at the river. And I remember, distinctly remember the day that former President Obama put out his support for Biden, for the candidate, that I pulled over and he came on live. LB: Yeah. BJ: And he just looked at the camera and started talking. And he was talking about the pandemic, he was talking about all this different stuff, and I distinctly remember my body changing. I distinctly remember my shoulders relaxing and my jaw stopped being tense and I'm, like, oh! LB: Yeah. BJ: This is what a leader actually sounds like. This is what somebody -- this is how you tell people, you know, this is going to suck but we can make it. This is how you do it. I'm, like, that's all we need -- I don't need to like you. (laughs) I just need you to tell me that we know what we're doing, you know? And we don't have that. We don't have that right now. LB: We're in the middle of a time, and we're coming to the end of this, but -- and, you know, we can go for a little bit longer. I actually have more time. It depends. But I know that you've got a lot of stuff to do. BJ: I got a little time, yeah. (laughs) LB: Okay, great. Well, I do want to talk about Black Lives Matter and I'd love to hear what you want to talk about because I think in the world, in the United States today, we've got political issues, we've got this terrible pandemic, and we also have some very significant race issues that people need to be talking about. And so, what do you want to say about that? I mean, people may not know that 30 years from now and they may not understand that, so let's talk about that. BJ: So, this brother, George Floyd, is executed in the streets -- and long execution. They -- not -- the people who murdered him didn't even have the decency to end his life quickly. LB: Yeah. BJ: He had enough time to use his few last breaths to call out to his mother, to call out to his dead mother. And when I saw that part of it -- the reality for a Black man in this country is it doesn't matter where you are class-wise. None of that matters. George Floyd could easily have been me, very easily, you know? And I don't know a Black person in this country who has not had a bad experience with law enforcement. I've had my share of them and most people who know me know my character and who I am and they would be surprised of how I personally have been treated by -- some of my experiences with the police. George Floyd is executed. We see it. We see the nonchalance of those who were involved in it, that this guy is just another number, is just, is -- this is -- you could see in that, this is something y'all do on a regular basis, isn't it? This is the way you treat people on a regular basis. And I think part of the reality that we're facing right now is that the reaction to the execution of George Floyd is not simply about George Floyd. This is not about one man. He just happens to be the light for the gasoline, a light that we've lit a few times before. But we -- let me be right back, because my computer's getting ready to die. I'm at four percent, so -- and I want to finish this thought. Give me one second. (laughs) LB: Okay. (pause) BJ: Okay, there we go. Oh. (laughs) So, what we're seeing right now is all of it. I mean, what you're seeing right now -- I've been Black all my life (laughs) and I have seen the Black community respond before. I've never seen anything like this. I've asked my grandmother, you know, "Has it been worse?" She's, "Yeah, it's been a lot worse." But she's never seen the Black community respond like this. And, you know, she lived through civil rights and Jim Crow and all that different kind of stuff. So, she's, like, "I've never seen the response on a community level." And I think part of it is COVID. LB: Yeah. BJ: Because we're all at home. LB: Right. BJ: So, we all have so much -- we have time to sit with this stuff and decide whether we're going to sit with it. LB: Right. BJ: And, you know, I think we are in a -- I think we have reached a turning point. And I do firmly believe that this system, this government, this way of living for the last 400 years of oppression and -- under oppression under white supremacy that very much still exists. I mean, very -- I mean, you can drive down Eighth Street in Allentown right now on the south side and there's a house over there that has a flag hanging out of it with swastikas on it. You can -- right now, you can drive over there and see that. This is a reality. But I think the reckoning has arrived. I don't think there's a way around this. If you don't do it now, it's going to be a bigger problem. If we don't fix this now, it will get fixed one way or the other. And, you know, I have never seen my community respond like this. I've never seen parts of the white community respond like this, all over the place, you know? Everybody knows that this is a real thing. LB: Right. BJ: Even those who pretend like it's not. LB: Yep. BJ: You ask them, okay, so, you talk about pulling yourselves up by your bootstraps and just getting over some things and -- because you did it. You were able to pull yourself up by your bootstraps in your life and do -- let me ask you this question. Would you want to still do everything you did through your life but be Black while doing it, knowing the reality of this country? LB: Yeah. BJ: And I don't think those folks would answer in the affirmative, "Yeah, I'd happily be Black and still try to do what I did." So, I think there is a reckoning coming, you know? I was talking to a friend of mine here at the church who is a woman of color. She's Asian, woman of color. And , you know, she said, "We all deal with discrimination. We all deal with the oppression of living in a country that's modeled off of white supremacy. We all deal with it." LB: Yeah. BJ: But she said, "You know, the one thing that all of us other minorities know" and that they have conversations about is at least they're not Black. (laughter) Because they know full well that it would be a heck of a lot harder (laughs) if they were Black. LB: Yeah. BJ: You know? And they deal with their own stuff. But I think there's a change coming. I am heartened by the response of people. I'm not surprised by the outrage of others. It's going to be what it's going to be but I firmly believe that if we don't deal with this now, if we just don't deal with the ugliness of who we actually are as a country now, it's going to get a heck of a lot worse. LB: Right, right, right. BJ: So, yeah, it's been rough. It's been -- you know, I had to take a week off shortly after the George Floyd incident happened because I hadn't -- you know, talking about being angry? LB: Yeah. BJ: I had not been that angry before. Like, I remember saying to Goudy that -- Goudy is the pastor at MCC Lehigh Valley. And I remember saying to them, "I can't do this right now. I can't be here right now because I'm about to pop." (laughs) LB: Yeah. BJ: And nobody here has ever seen me pop. So, like, I -- and the reality for -- I am -- here is the line that I walk. I am an openly Black -- well, openly Black, yeah. I'm openly Black. (laughs) I'm an openly gay Black man in the Lehigh Valley. LB: Right. BJ: The Lehigh Valley, it's a really good experiment of what supremacy looks like, (laughs) in real time action, you know? There is no Black community here. There are Black people. There's no Black community. And that's not by accident. You don't -- I still always wonder how we are 45 miles from Philadelphia, one of the densest populated cities in the country in relation to Black folk with a huge Black populations and how there are very few Black folks, respectively, in the Lehigh Valley. LB: Yeah. BJ: You know? Those lines of delineation are really, really strong in the Lehigh Valley, you know, where urban life ends and rural life begins, it is clear as day. It's, you know, and there's no passing through it. So, my experience is that I'm an openly gay Black man who works in a religious institution that is a predominantly white religious institution of people who belong to a minority group but also belong to the majority group who don't always understand how they benefit from their privilege simply because they belong to a minority group. LB: Right. BJ: But the difference is you can walk out of this place and be a white person and not be an LGBT person, you know what I'm saying? You can take those clothes off if you want to. LB: Yeah. BJ: I could walk through west end Allentown in a rainbow thong and streamers out of my hair and sparklers going off and just Pride-d out. And when they make the phone call, the phone call is going to be, "There's a Black guy walking down the street, causing a ruckus." LB: Right. BJ: I doesn't mat-- I could be as -- as I want to be. And that's the reality. That's the reality for so many people in this area. And it's a rough one to be in. So, I had to walk away from the church for a week or so, you know, trying to manage my own stuff. Also, this is going to be a little weird, but trying to manage my own stuff but also trying to -- how do I say this? The people that have been the hardest to deal with through this are not the -- your conservative -- LB: Right. BJ: I know where they're at. LB: Yeah. BJ: For me, it has been the white liberal progressives who have been the hardest to deal with with this because they don't understand you may be white, liberal progressive but you're still white and you still benefit -- LB: It's still racist. BJ: -- from the privilege, yeah. You still have all of that -- there's no way you don't. LB: It's racism. BJ: Yeah. LB: It's impossible not to be a -- BJ: Impossible. LB: -- racist in this country. BJ: It's impossible and -- LB: It's impossible for anybody to not be a racist, no matter -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- what their race is because we're -- BJ: It's hard. LB: -- constant-- there's so much societal racism. BJ: And it's systemic. LB: (inaudible) BJ: It's been written into our -- the core of who we are as a society to not trust each other and to not -- you know, in the back of our heads, it's always there. It's always there. You know, my biggest frustration, I think that first couple weeks after all of this happened was the number of people, the number of white folk who I had not talked to in maybe years who either texted me or called me to ask me if I'm okay and ask me what they can do -- and I'm, like, I know you mean well. LB: Yes. BJ: I know you mean well. But I'm not your personal Black man. Like, it's I'm not the guardian of the gates. If you really want to help, there are plenty of places where you -- don't reach out to me for me to tell -- to do the work to tell you how to do the work. LB: Right. BJ: Figure it out. (laughs) So, that was, like, my -- I said to a couple friends, said to my friend, [Cirie?], who is [Ciriya?] Lang, who is a professor over at Lehigh, "If one more person texts me, I'm going to lose my shit. I'm going to lose it." (laughs) They mean well but good Lord. (laughs) LB: Yeah. BJ: Oh! LB: Yeah. (laughs) And unfortunately, in real life, it's harder to unfriend people. BJ: Yeah. (laughs) LB: I just want to -- BJ: (laughs) You know, I do think -- I hate social media. I despise it. You know, I say all the time it's where the devil goes to cry. But the thing I do appreciate about it is that so many people have no filter when it comes to social media and they don't think that there are consequences to the things that they say or post or do. I am grateful for the number of people who have shown me who they are, you know? It's the same people who I can see on a -- or see in person who will smile in my face and tell me that they care or love me or whatever. And I gotcha. Okay. (laughs) Okay. You know, I'm grateful for that. (laughs) LB: Yeah. (laughs) But we're back to reality and -- BJ: Yeah. (laughs) LB: Yeah. Now what are you going to do? Yeah. BJ: Yeah, yeah. LB: I appreciate that. So, I guess that we're at the end here and, you know, if you want to go on, that's -- or I'll give you some more time to say whatever you want to say. But I did want to ask you, you know, sort of in the end thing: what's the thing, you know, what's giving you hope, what kind of hope and strength are you getting from anything now that we just talked about all the annoying people that -- (laughter) [calling you?] up with their they're desperately hav-- I have to feel good because -- so, I'm going to talk to Brian, so -- (laughter) BJ: I think that what I -- I said it earlier. I have seen the best of people throughout this, too. Seen the worst but I've seen the best come out of people. I've seen a generation of younger kids who I am excited about, you know, this -- eighteen, nineteen-year-olds, twenty-year-olds, twenty-one-year-olds, these kids are, like -- LB: Yeah. BJ: -- they've got their stuff together. And they have talked out a bunch of stuff with one another that my generation has not, your generation has not, and they've been frank with each other. And they have the ability to not be -- they have the ability to see that the king has no clothes on, you know what I'm saying? They have this -- they know that the stuff that they've been taught, that they -- in school is crap. LB: Yeah. BJ: They know this. They do a bunch of their own work. So, that in and of itself has given me some hope. LB: Yeah. BJ: And, you know, I'm only in my late thirties at this point and I'm -- I think these kids could take over. (laughter) LB: Yeah. BJ: Yeah, I'm happy to just go, "Hey, you can -- go ahead. You guys do what you want to do." LB: Yes. BJ: So, that has given me hope. That's absolutely given me hope. LB: Yeah, yeah. BJ: The closeness of my spouse has given me hope, as well. We've always been very close and always depended on each other and always supported each other throughout all different kind of stuff but I'm very lucky. I'm a very lucky man to have met the man that I can fully confide and leave stuff with, you know? And the line of work that we do, it's nice to have somebody in your corner who gets it, you know? Who gets it and who you can put stuff down with because people don't really comprehend how much we got to carry. And being able to have somebody who you can trust with you is nice. So, that gives me hope that I will actually be able to survive this (laughs) with some sense of completion, like I'm still put together. So, yeah. LB: Yeah. BJ: So, those two things, I don't know about -- I'm really excited about this new crop of kids. Really excited about it. LB: Right. Pretty great. It's a whole new world -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- and it's all through different -- in terms of how they deal with sexual orientation, gender identity, how they talk about things, how they understand things, how they write about things, how they talk about race and ethnic background and how they talk about everything, it's really very positive. BJ: How they reason with each other. LB: Yeah, it's very -- BJ: Like, it's not just, you know, it's not just "I'm right, you're wrong." But they take time and invest in conversation with one another, with people who they have very differing views on -- you know, unlike us, who sit on Facebook and, "Here's this article that I did not read and I think it" -- you know, (inaudible), you know? They're not like that. In fact, that's enough hope for me right there. (laughs) LB: That's great. Well, I, you know, I think of you as a very young person because I knew you when you were so young. (laughter) And did you go to Allen High School? You went to Allen High School. BJ: I did, I did. LB: Yeah. BJ: I went to Allen. LB: So, I'm remembering, and maybe I'm wrong about this, but you -- in the 2000 Pride festival, do you remember that? It was raining horrendously. BJ: Oh, that -- oh, my God, I remember that, yeah. (laughs) LB: You had that -- and you had a booth there because you -- BJ: I -- LB: -- talking about starting about starting a Gay-Straight Alliance, weren't you? At Allen High School? BJ: Yes! LB: Yeah. BJ: I -- LB: because I -- for the booth -- BJ: -- yeah, I wanted to start a Gay-Straight Alliance at Allen. This was before -- LB: Rachel -- BJ: -- Rachel -- LB: -- Zane. BJ: -- yeah, Rachel Zane. Rachel was there but Rachel was working at the school at that time. LB: Yeah, yeah. BJ: But I didn't know Rachel and -- because I literally just had this conversation with Rachel, like, a year ago when Goudy and I went to the Gay-Straight Alliance to do a presentation. And, you know, I said, "I tried to start a Gay-Straight Alliance back in, like, 2000, 2001." LB: It was 2000 -- BJ: Yeah, some -- LB: -- 2000. BJ: -- somewhere -- yeah, and got a bunch of pushback, so -- LB: Yeah, remember that. BJ: So, I had the booth, I had all different kind of stuff going on, and -- LB: It was the hurricane. It was -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- during a hurricane. BJ: Yeah, it was -- LB: And it rained horrendously, to the point where you didn't have a tent, so you're standing out there with a card table, which was mine, by the way, and I still have it. (laughter) And then, you ended up standing in our -- and I said we have to get this kid back over here, because you were in high school then. (laughter) And we come back over and we're just standing in the tent. It's just torrentially raining and people are just -- you know, and Governor Rendell, he was running for office and he was on the stage. There were still 800 people there. BJ: Yeah, while -- LB: But -- BJ: -- all the mud is getting deeper -- LB: -- right, the mud is -- like, sinking in the mud. BJ: (inaudible) LB: Crocs are just stuck in the mud in the middle of the field and -- BJ: That was back when we -- when Pride was in that -- LB: Yeah. BJ: -- baller area on the other side of -- LB: We were in the other side. BJ: -- [near Beech?], right? LB: Yeah. BJ: Yeah. LB: That was the last time I think we had it there and -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- Allison [Homm?] was the chair of Pride and she was trying to fix stuff. It might have been 2001. But we were -- she was, like, ordering people to bring hay in so that they could put it on the mud -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- because we couldn't get our cars out. BJ: Yeah. LB: And it was, yeah, so I -- BJ: It was (inaudible) LB: -- always -- and I said -- you know, people say, well, so-and-so started the first Gay-Straight Alliance. I said, "I thought Brian Jones did." But I do remember there was a lot of pushback. There was a lot of pushback -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- for the principal. We couldn't even -- BJ: I remember I -- so, this was back in 2000. Remember Borders books? And -- LB: Yeah, yeah. BJ: -- Borders bookstore? Well, they have a LGBT section in Borders books and I'm -- my little gay self, I went into Borders books, went to the gay section and found a guide to being a LGBT person. (laughter) And I start all this different kind of stuff. And I pulled out this guide and I opened it up and looked at, you know, there was a section in there that said, "How to start a Gay-Straight Alliance." LB: Yeah. BJ: I went, okay, I can find that. I can find an advisor ; I can find a room. I've always been a person who can galvanize people and get -- you know, it's what I've always done. So, I got a teacher who was able to give me a room. I got -- and all the bylaws for the school said to start a group -- was that you needed an advisor, you needed a room, and the group had to be open to anybody. LB: Right. BJ: It couldn't be exclusive. So, I went to start it and next thing I know, I'm talking to a school counselor. Then the school counselor wants me to talk to the vice principal and then the vice principal wants me to talk to the principal. And the principal wants me to talk to the superintendent. And this went on for months. For months. And I remember calling you -- LB: Yeah. BJ: -- and contact with you and -- LB: Mr. Ziminsky was the guy who told me to talk to you. BJ: Yeah. Steve Ziminsky or Steve Libby? LB: Yeah, Steve Ziminsky. BJ: Okay -- LB: Because he (inaudible) BJ: -- that makes sense. LB: -- [was?] the music teacher. BJ: Yeah. LB: Now, there's this guy, he's a great musician and he's a kid and he's doing this great job and you need to work with him. And so, "We'll do that. [Call us?]." BJ: And we tried. LB: Yeah. BJ: I mean, that went on for almost -- I want to say almost six months of getting the runaround. And then, by that time, I was -- so, by the time 2001 came around, I was becoming a senior in high school, getting ready for going to school, trying to finish my senior year, and I'm, like, ah! I, you know, (laughs) so I kind of just let it go. LB: And I'm actually going to be interviewing Ian Wagner, and he was the one, with Rachel Zane, who actually made it go. But even after they finally got that to go, I remember this so clear because they called us in for this. They would have the announcement that the Gay-Straight Alliance was going to meet. And the person who was reading the morning announcements would say the GSA. BJ: Yeah. LB: They wouldn't say gay. They wouldn't say the word. And so, everybody thought it was the Girls Scouts of America. (laughter) They just kept saying -- like, they have a Girl Scouts thing here? What the fuck is that, you know? BJ: Like, the -- Ian was able -- I don't -- I think I know Ian -- LB: Yeah, he's on (inaudible) BJ: I think we've met each other. I think I know him. But he -- they were able to get that started -- I think it was, like, the year after I left. LB: I think it was the year after. But the thing about it was that Rachel was committed to starting it. BJ: Yeah. LB: So, if you can have a teacher who is -- in effect, it's the teacher that's doing it and the -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- kids are doing it. And I know that's so because I was a college teacher and, you know, you can have a kid who -- like, we had a lot of different situations where kids would come to us and they'd say, "Well, I'm trying to get this thing to happen and I have this petition," something like that. And I would say to them, this happened at Liberty High School, and I said, "Let me talk to them. Let me just talk to the principal first." So, then I would threaten the principal (laughter) like, "You can't say no to this kid." BJ: Yeah. LB: "It's the law!" I did that to [Muller?], I did that to Moravian, too. BJ: Yeah. LB: And I screamed at the person who was the dean of students because they said that they had brought kids in telling them they had a Gay-Straight Alliance at Moravian and they didn't. BJ: And they didn't. LB: And then, the person says to me, "Well, he can start one." I said, "So, you're telling me that you want a freshman kid who is being harassed" -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- "publicly by their RA to start their own group after you told him, 'You should come here because there's a group'?" BJ: Yeah. LB: I mean, come on! BJ: Oh! LB: That's not okay! And every time they say, you know, "Well, it's up to the kids to do it" -- it is very hard for the kids to do it. BJ: Really hard! LB: You have to have -- BJ: It's fucking -- LB: -- yeah. BJ: I remember being -- LB: And you were so tenacious about it. I remember that so well. BJ: I was on -- I was one of the few out gay kids in that -- I mean, and Allen is a school, even then, of three thousand, four thousand -- LB: Yes, [in the thousands?]. BJ: -- kids. LB: Yeah. BJ: And I was one of maybe five or six kids in the whole school who were out. LB: Yeah. BJ: You know? And I felt like, I always have felt like, okay, this is a part of my responsibility -- LB: Exactly, yeah. BJ: -- as a, as who I, you know, who I am. So, I took on the responsibility. LB: Yeah, that's right. BJ: And the thing that they never said: they never said no. LB: Right, they just -- BJ: They never said no. LB: -- passed you on forever. BJ: Yeah. LB: "Well, we have to talk to the school board. We have to talk to the superintendent. Well, next month, we'll talk to the superintendent." BJ: Yeah. LB: "Next week, we'll have this. Let's, well" -- and then, all of a sudden, the facilitator doesn't want to do it anymore because -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- they've been threatened. BJ: Yeah. LB: And that happened at Pen Argyl High School, [Adrian?] -- and that was a lot later but Pen Argyl High School, they ended up -- ultimately, the superintendent made -- and the school, the counselor -- we actually talked directly to the legal counsel for the whole school district, who told them they have to let it go because it's against the law to say no. And the superintendent came to the kids, this is so fascinating. The superintendent comes to the kids, this is at Pen Argyl, and says to them, "You really, you're doing a great job. I support this one hundredpercent. And by the way, I'm a lesbian." Superintendent says that. And then she gets fired. BJ: Oh! LB: She gets -- so, what does that say to the kids? BJ: Oh! LB: I mean, here's this person who is that level and they come out in a perfectly normal thing, like, "I want you to know that it gets better, I'm a lesbian, I have a great relationship, don't worry about it, every -- you know, I support you." And then she gets fired. The superintendent gets fired. BJ: Well -- LB: And then the teachers see that and they think holy crap, I'm not going to be the advisor for this group. They're going to fire me if I do this. BJ: Well -- LB: It's -- that's how you keep people down, by doing that. BJ: -- but you also keep people up by being visible -- LB: Yeah, you do. BJ: -- and open. You take the lumps that you're going to get and you just keep on moving. I mean, it's -- and I would ask you a question. Do you know, do you and Trish understand -- I know you do ; it's just philosophical -- but I really think that what y'all do, what we do, what people like Steve Libby do, you know, what we do is life and death. LB: Yeah. BJ: Literal life and death. LB: I do know that's true. BJ: And, you know, we would not be having this conversation right now if -- and you don't know this, but if I had -- if people like you and Steve and Goudy hadn't walked into my life, I would be gone. LB: Yeah. Well, I mean -- and that goes for the people that helped me and everything like that, too, and that we've got this whole relationship. And it's what you're talking about, that family of LGBT people that -- and frankly, with regard to LGBT people, which is different than racial minorities -- racial minorities cannot hide their racial minority. But there's also the fact that most LGBT people don't have parents that are LGBT, so they don't really know -- and the one other group that's similar to that that I found when I do trainings and stuff is young people who have disabilities. And their parents don't always -- don't understand them because they don't have those disabilities. And the relationship -- I actually did a training one time. It was a whole bunch of kids that happened to show up to it that all had mental and physical disabilities. Mostly mental disabilities. And when I was talking about that aspect -- because, you know, you never had to go home and say to your parents, "Mom, Dad, I've got something to tell you. I'm Black." They probably knew. BJ: Yeah, they figured that out. (laughs) LB: But they probably figured it out. Now, it doesn't make it any easier because you're right -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- you're wearing a badge every minute that everybody can see and the ingrained racism of the United States is impossible to deny. But these kids, when I was saying it to these kids who had these disabilities, they were totally nodding their head. And I hadn't really thought about it and then I'm looking at them going, oh, yeah! They're in the same situation because Trish, who worked at a rehab hospital said, you know, "Kids who have -- they would get head injuries or something like that and it would change their demeanor or they'd be in a wheelchair, their families would just give them up." And that's what happens to us, that's -- you know, to LGBT kids. And so, it's our responsibility, as part of the LGBT community, the [adult?] community, to take care of the younger generation. It's our responsibility. If we're not going to do it, we can't count on their own parents to do it. BJ: Yeah, and -- LB: And in general, I think that's true for all kids. Kids can't always count on their parents to take care of them. Other people have to help them. BJ: Yeah. LB: It's a part of the deal. And so -- BJ: And that need for, that wagon circling thing, that need for -- that familial thing that we have all -- that so many of us have lost, places like your organization have been that. We've tried our best to do that. And -- LB: Oh, you've done a great job at MCC. You know, I'm still recommending people to go to MCC. People will call me up and they'll say -- and they've done this for years, because I've been answering the info line for twenty-two years. People call up and they'll say, "I want to meet more people in the community." Or, "I want a support group." Now, we have support groups sort of now but not for just -- and I say, "You really need a support group or you just need to meet more queer people? (laughter) [Like?], meet other lesbians, for example." And I'll say, "You know, how do you feel about church?" "Yeah, I don't have any problem with that." "Okay, well, why don't you go to MCC?" "Because they have to be nice to you there. It's [work?]. (laughter) And they'll shake your hand and then you can sit in the back." And also, it's every week. So, it's not like, well, if I don't have the nerve to do it this week -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- I can always think -- I can go -- BJ: There's going to be another one next week. LB: -- I can do another one next -- not like monthly or we're having a dance and then we're not -- BJ: Yeah, yeah. LB: -- having another one till next year. Or the Pride festivals: one gig and then there's not another one until next year. And I said, "MCC." And I remember one time, somebody -- I won't tell you who it is but it's somebody you know in the church who said -- I was doing something at MCC when we were -- when you were at the soap -- or whatever that factory place was on Fourth Street, when you're on Sixth Street. And we were working on a project and something and (inaudible) and she was a board member. And she said, "Do you realize that you said that to me? (laughter) I called you for that reason? Like, I don't know anybody. Said, 'Why don't you go over to MCC?'" And she, like, you know, ended up with a whole career thing there. (laughter) And now she has a partner who she's married to and that was a long time ago. And I said, "I say that to a lot of people." (laughter) And I do because that -- and also, that people have, you know, spiritual violence to them all the time. BJ: Yeah. LB: And people who get a life from church can often have their church treat them like crap and that they need a church that really is going to support them. And I think that MCC -- I just referenced somebody. Somebody just called me. It was a therapist and the therapist said that the kid was very, very religious, from a very religious family, and they needed a religious community to support them. And I said, "Call Metropolitan." And she said, "I called this church. It was a United Church of Christ." Not yours but -- not the one there but in another part -- and the pastor who answered the phone said, "Yeah, the pastor that you really should talk to is the other guy and he's on vacation. I'm not the one." In other words, "I hate gay people." BJ: Yeah, yeah. LB: You know, the other guy is tolerant of them, so -- and I said, "You don't need to call a church that is willing to allow queer people to be in the church. You need to call a church who's going to understand exactly what this kid is talking about." BJ: Yeah, and that is a big part of that -- see, it's an important context to have because there are a lot of churches in the area who are open and affirming, who are reconciling, who are -- and a lot of them get that as a badge of honor. LB: Yeah. BJ: That doesn't mean diddly-squat, you know? It doesn't mean -- LB: Oh, doesn't, no. BJ: -- doesn't mean a thing. There are those -- I got to give -- there are those who -- where that means something -- LB: Yeah. BJ: -- but they're fewer than, yeah, and fewer than you would think. LB: Yeah. BJ: And, you know, so many people in our community who have been raised in a faith tradition, who have been raised in a Christian tradition, who have never been told that they're loved by their Creator as they are. LB: Yeah! BJ: Is amazing to me and we see it -- I mean, you can see the visceral reaction of people when they hear that for the first time. LB: Right. BJ: And it changes their lives. And a lot of times -- we have this conversation often because a lot of times, we get people who come to the door who might come to the door one time. They might come to the door one time and they'll sit in the sanctuary and they will just cry through the whole thing. LB: Right. BJ: And we won't see them again. And what we had to come to terms with was all this person needed in their life was to be told that what they believe, how they believe they were created, is affirmed by the divine. (laughs) That's all they needed. And be okay with that. LB: And they're not the only one that thinks so. There's this whole church of people that -- BJ: Whole community. LB: Yeah. BJ: Whole community. LB: This church community looks just like my church community, so -- BJ: Yeah. And can I ask you a question? LB: Sure. BJ: I would love to get your perspective on this. Even before COVID, had you been getting a sense that the LGBT community had -- I've kind of been getting the sense that the LGBT community had been coming -- disjointed. Not disjointed but -- that's not the word I want to use. Disconnected. So, long-time institutions within our area closed over the last couple years. So, in cases like Diamonz and, like, 12th Street, what was it called? The bar on Twelfth Street. LB: Candida's. BJ: Candida's. LB: Candida's. Yeah, except I know why both of those places changed. They closed and it wasn't because they didn't have business or anything like that. It was -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- Candida was, you know, in her late 70s and she wanted to retire. And, quite frankly, the person who ran Diamonz had some issues that got -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- didn't have anything to do with -- well, I think, for me, I'm not seeing that because we just -- BJ: No? LB: -- got this -- I'm not seeing that because we had just started this community center and it's -- we've got 14 employees now. And, you know, when we started out, it was, like, me and Adrian and Trish and Adrienne saying, "Let's try to do this." And before that, we ran it out of our house for years and years and years. BJ: Yeah. LB: And so, actually, I'm seeing this enormous amount of work we're doing. So, I guess I see what you mean. I think that there is -- and it's interesting that I'm doing a lot of historical stuff because I just interviewed all of these guys about HIV/AIDS and a couple of women and -- in the eighties. And there was an LGBT community center on Hamilton Street in the eighties -- BJ: Wow. LB: -- that was called the Lambda Center. And then, because of AIDS, it became the AIDS Services Center -- BJ: Okay. LB: -- which was in Bethlehem. And that ran for a long time, into the nineties until -- and then, it was absorbed by St. Luke's. But what happened was that things with regard to AIDS changed because of actual ways to save people's lives and stuff like that. So, I've actually been looking at this, because I came to the Lehigh Valley in 1987, I've been looking at this continuum. And somebody in the community named Dixie White, I don't know if you know her, but she was a -- Dixie died a couple of -- BJ: Weeks ago. LB: -- weeks ago, a few weeks ago, and she was a major activist in the seventies and I knew her quite well. And she gave me a lot of her papers and stuff about stuff that she did in the '70s and what they tried to do in the seventies. And so, I mean, that's really -- we're really talking about, you know, more than forty years ago and this continuum. And those things wax and wane. BJ: Yeah. LB: And a lot of it has to do with people who age out, you know? They get to a certain point where they're saying, okay, [I can't -- this?] -- I have to say that for me and Trish, the fact that Adrian came along and said that he would run the Pride festival, and here's this guy in his thirties -- I mean, he wasn't even in his thirties. He was late twenty-something. I'm thinking thank God he's doing this because who else would do this the way that we're doing it? We're not getting paid, we're putting a huge amount of our own money into it for the most part, we're doing all of this work. It's constant work and we can't do this forever. BJ: Yeah. LB: And then, somebody comes along and says, "I'll do it." So, I think it's not unlike that circumstance that happens in schools frequently where there can be an enormously successful Gay-Straight Alliance because there's, like, two really active students and a facilitator that are so into it. When Adrian was at Muhlenberg College, the Gay-Straight Alliance had seven hundred members. BJ: Wow. LB: And when he left, there were forty-five members. And forty-five isn't anything to shake -- I mean, that's plenty. BJ: Yeah, yeah. LB: So, when -- but, you know, you have somebody who's really dynamic and they figure out ways to do it. And it waxes and wanes and I think that that happens. I think that there is a feeling or there has been a feeling since the last presidential election of fear and despair, which is changing now. I think that people are saying we have to come together, we have to fight -- that sometimes people feel complacent after the continuation of marriage or, you know, after the legality of marriage equality and people are sort of thinking, okay, we've got this now. BJ: Yeah. LB: And then, you know, then all these other things happen. And so, we have to recognize that that -- and that happens, you know, that happened with -- in the civil rights movement where desegregation happens and the end of, for the most part, the end of Jim Crow laws and you have the really significant civil rights movement with Martin Luther King and all of those thing happen and then the signing of the Civil Rights Act in 1965. And then, white people starting to think, oh, well, that -- Black people aren't discriminated against anymore. One of the things that -- what I was thinking about when you were talking about people being so aware of the Black Lives Matter movement and the terrible things, the George Floyd stuff, the Breonna Taylor, all of those different things is -- one of the things that's great about it is social media because people can whip out their phone and take a picture of it -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- so that somebody can say, "Well, oh, that doesn't really happen." But, like, yes it does! Here it's happening and six people took a picture, watched this happening, and had a picture of, you know, peaceful Black Lives Matters protesters being beaten up by police in riot gear for no reason at all. BJ: Yeah. LB: And you can't look at that and go, well, that wasn't really happening. And that actually happened during the civil rights movement, too, where people were seeing on television, you know, peaceful people marching and then, you know, guys with dogs and, you know, police with dogs and with fire hoses really harming those people and saying, well, how can you justify that? This is real discrimination. And so, one of the good things now, I think, and it can be dangerous, but one of the good things now is that, I mean, we had a Supreme Court decision that was pretty significant. I was able to -- Trish is famous for watching the SCOTUS blog. She watches that blog and the minute the stuff comes off -- this happened with the American -- Care Act. The real information, I put it on the internet as fast as possible (laughter) because I want to break the news before anybody else. So, we have the opportunity to do that kind of information when before we had to rely solely on the news and they often get it wrong or they got it -- it was tainted or -- we know that news isn't always honest now. And there's -- you know, Fox News has been around with their fake news for years and years. But so was the Hearst company in the 1930s. BJ: Yeah, yeah. LB: So, I mean, that's nothing new. But now we have an opportunity to share information. Some of it's wrong. Some of it's tainted. But we also have a way to share information with each other in terms of saying, okay, you cannot argue that this thing that happened to George Floyd is wrong. BJ: Yeah. LB: I mean, this happened. It was wrong. There is no justification for it. And you can turn back and say if you're trying to justify this, you are being -- or if you're trying to justify that transgender people shouldn't have healthcare, I don't want to be your friend anymore. You can't say you love me and then do this thing. BJ: Yeah. LB: And it is kind of -- it can be divisive and it can draw a line in the sand. But it also can make people aware that we can't just agree to disagree when it comes to inequality and racism and homophobia and transphobia. We can't just agree to disagree. That's not a legitimate thing to say. Only people of privilege will ever say that. BJ: Yeah, yeah. LB: And so, I think that, you know, I've been doing this gig a long time. A really long time. I was running the Gay-Straight Alliance when I was in college and that was, oh, in the seventies. So, I see this. It's a roller coaster. And I think that people can be -- one's experience can be, oh, God, I can't get anybody to do anything and why is this happening? I have seen that happen, go, you know, like a roller coaster for so many years that I expect it to be a roller coaster. So, I think, you know, it's unrealistic, and I know you know this, it's unrealistic to think it's always going to just get better and better and better and better. BJ: Oh, yeah. LB: It never happens. BJ: Never works that way. Never works that way. LB: And, you know, look at the history of MCC. It's been around for thirty years, more than thirty years. BJ: Almost forty at this point. (laughs) LB: Forty? Yeah. BJ: Almost forty. LB: And the, right, and all the incredible things that have happened and the successes that's happened. And then, you know, parts that were hard and parts there's disagreement, it's the way human beings are. I mean, that's, it's, yeah, but look at how MCC has continued after all of this time, I think, and how many people have been positively supported and helped by MCC. It's extraordinary -- BJ: Yeah, it's -- LB: -- something to be really proud of. BJ: -- it's, you know, I -- that need for that community thing, that need for the ability to do this, right? (laughs) To do -- LB: Sure. BJ: -- you know, and I wonder, in the future, how much of this kind of stuff is going to be important, even more so in building local community and keeping the stories together, keeping the history together, and being able to have conversations with each other that other people can see and be a part of. LB: Right. BJ: You know? It's going to be very important. Very, very important. People are going to need to see folks who are in either a leadership position or just a part of the community engaging with each other and, you know, this is -- I think you're onto something here. (laughs) LB: Oh, definitely, and this was a grant that we got and it was some -- Adrian and some of the people from the archives wrote this grant and then they said, "Now you have to do it." (laughter) And I said to these guys -- and I have to tell you, Brian, that we've been working on these archived interviews for a while and Lehigh is doing some from some of the older people who are the LGBT people in the community. And it took them about a year and a half to do 10 interviews. Then Adrian came to me -- and they have a team, too -- and then he comes to me and he goes, "Well, here's the grant," and something and I said, "This is 30 interviews, (laughter) two months." BJ: Oh, my gosh! LB: I haven't even -- and I said, "And I don't even know how to use the Zoom yet!" (laughter) So, I said to him -- he said, "Can you get it done?" because it's parameters in the grant and I said, "Yeah, I can get it done." But for every -- but nobody else could do this because you got to know people to be able to do this and -- BJ: Yeah, yeah. LB: -- so, anyway, it was -- been funny. But I did point out and I said there's a lot of paperwork with these things, too. We have to fill out forms and they have to be uploaded and stuff like that and it goes to the archives. So, I have to fill out forms to be sure that it's uploaded the right way. So, anyway, we've gone over the time but I loved talking to you! (laughter) And I'm so grateful that you've done this and it's been wonderful to walk down memory lane, back to twenty years ago when we were -- BJ: Twenty years ago! LB: -- getting really wet and -- (laughter) that was a classic -- I think that was a really classic -- BJ: That was, I -- that was horrible. (laughs) LB: It was horrible! BJ: That was still -- it was memorable, though. People still showed up. They still came out. LB: And the hilarious thing about it is I remember Steve Black saying this from the stage, he said, "We're so -- we're in this terrible situation where we're" -- the name of the hurricane was Alison, was Hurricane Alison. BJ: Yeah, yeah. LB: And we said, you know, the head of our -- the Pride festival was Alison. (laughter) She's our own hurricane. She's still around doing stuff, too. BJ: Yeah, yeah! LB: So, you know, I mean, I see posts from her every day and they're very, very progressive and interesting. BJ: Yeah. LB: So, anyway, it's been wonderful to talk to you. Thank you so much. They will send you this and I'm going to turn this off now, so -- BJ: Okay. LB: -- there -- END OF VIDEO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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01:48:57
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Brian Jones, July 9, 2020
Description
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Brian Jones talks about the current COVID19 is affecting him and his family, his work at Metropolitan Community Church of the Lehigh Valley, how it is affecting LGBTQ people, Black Lives Matter issues, and what gives him hope
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PH40_09
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-;COVID-19 (Disease)
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2020-07-09
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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https://lgbt.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/6df75b76c76c512af877a1741a061f02.png
e4823686b00b9cef9cbb0d4d8adcad13
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
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In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Liz Bradbury
Interviewee
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Chloe Cole-Wilson
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_24.xml
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COVID-19
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5.4 July 14th, 2020 Chloe Cole-Wilson, July 14, 2020 PH40_24 01:24:56 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 COVID-19 Activism Pandemic Chloe Cole-Wilson Liz Bradbury video/mpeg Coles-WilsonChloe_20200714_video.mp4 1.0:|27(2)|50(8)|85(2)|116(5)|141(9)|164(2)|183(6)|210(11)|251(14)|274(8)|299(16)|324(5)|347(4)|376(17)|399(14)|428(3)|449(13)|476(12)|499(14)|526(6)|553(2)|576(9)|599(15)|624(14)|649(9)|672(5)|691(13)|716(9)|737(13)|766(9)|793(15)|818(11)|841(7)|862(11)|887(11)|914(8)|937(2)|960(12)|985(17)|1012(16)|1041(15)|1076(3)|1103(15)|1130(18)|1151(7)|1174(2)|1199(5)|1224(16)|1249(5)|1278(15)|1303(15)|1326(18)|1347(5)|1370(7)|1393(6)|1416(13)|1439(8)|1460(4)|1481(10)|1510(7)|1531(11)|1550(16)|1573(11)|1600(9)|1625(17)|1644(11)|1667(14)|1696(2)|1719(12)|1744(6)|1769(5)|1794(15)|1821(11)|1842(4)|1865(9)|1886(15)|1917(3)|1940(8)|1969(11)|1992(9)|2017(5)|2052(5)|2081(20)|2114(5)|2149(5) 0 https://youtu.be/6bYdJH4BdhE YouTube video 0 Interview Introduction LIZ BRADBURY: -- a little problem. Okay. So there we go, and I’m going to turn the audio on too. Now, I’m going to read you these -- this piece -- this intro. Oh, turn off my phone. (laughs) I write that right on here, so I don’t forget to do it. 
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 ; CHLOE COLE-WILSON: (laughs)
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 ; LB: And I want to also pin -- oops -- pin you in this. Okay. It’s good. Pin in the video, I got the audio, okay, it’s good, and record it. So with this project, Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury, and I’m here with Chloe Cole-Wilson -- is that right -- to -- 
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 ; CCW: Right.
 ; Activism ; Allentown ; Bethlehem ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; COVID-19 ; Liz Bradbury ; Project SILK Lehigh Valley 0 207 Description of Project SILK Lehigh Valley + COVID Experiences LB: Okay. Oh, so here are some of these thing. And so I already sent these questions. And the concept of the archive, I like to think about it as that there will be people who will, hopefully, look at this many years in the future to see what it was like for people at this point in the COVID epidemic in the Lehigh Valley who are part of the core community to get sort of an idea. Because there have been other circumstances with pandemics and epidemics where we really didn’t talk about people’s personal experiences. You can say anything you want about this. I have some of those questions. You can answer those, or you can think about those. I’ll ask those if you want, but you can say whatever you want. But let’s start out with this, are you by yourself in your home or do you have other people there or what’s the deal? 
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 ; CCW: It’s myself and my partner and then we have three other roommates.
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 ; LB: Oh, okay, okay. I know the answers to some of these things, but you could talk about this for the archives. Have you been working, has your employer closed or laid off, and why don’t you talk about a little bit what you do? 
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 ; CCW: Yeah. So I am program coordinator for Project SILK Lehigh Valley, which is an LGBT drop-in center that focuses on Black and brown youth. So a lot of the work that I’ve been doing during this time is just planning, programming, and getting the Valley Youth House staff in a place where they feel comfortable providing services virtually while also responding to crisis. During this time, we did have a few youth that became homeless and so it was trying to respond to those needs as quickly as we possibly could with -- considering my safety, my staff’s safety, and things like that, the youth safety, so yeah. Chloe Coles-Wilson ; COVID-19 ; Liz Bradbury ; Project SILK Lehigh Vally 0 340 HIV + STI Testing during COVID-19 
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 ; CCW: Mm-hmm. So a lot of what we did was six feet, we stayed six feet away, we were masked up. We supplied some hand sanitizer to our workers and things like that. But I was one of the only workers that was really out working with a youth who was identifying as like unsheltered and was living in what -- in Allentown, what people would call it as like tent city where folks -- where all the unsheltered folks kind of cohabitate together and exist. So a lot of it was just like dropping things off on the corner and being like, “Hey, these items are here. I will wait for you to pick up these items.” And then, you know, sometimes because we are in partnership with a shelter as well, to give and provide HIV, STI testing but also provide sexual health counseling and things like that. In those moments, we were meeting outside on the porch six feet away. Now that restrictions have lessened, we’ve been doing some more contact work with our other sites. There’s been some very interesting things that I’ve done to try to appease the youth and provide the service, you know? 
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 ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; COVID-19 ; HIV ; Liz Bradbury ; STI 0 532 The Impact on the Youth + Activism in the Arts Park CCW: And it’s like a central place, so kids coming from all over the city will be able to just kind of know where it is, access where it is, and it kind of works. And also too, we might be able to interact with new youth there because there has been a lot of youth out because of the protesting, the Black Lives Matter protests that are happening right now, which is -- it’s so crazy because that’s on the other end of the work that I do. I also have an arts organization called Basement Poetry. And we’ve been doing some activism and advocacy around just like so many things, police brutality, inclusive shelters that will allow trans and gender nonbinary folks to identify in the identity that is theirs. Because if they cannot, it is a health risk. So that’s been something that we’ve been really talking a lot about with these other organizations that are Black and brown ran. 
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 ; It’s how to have inclusive spaces. Talking with city council about this. When we’re defending the police like when this funding starts trickling down, making sure these organizations are anti-racist, making sure these organizations are anti-oppressive. That’s another piece of this too. But what’s interesting is the area like... Because the kids are so like, “I don't know what’s going on, I don’t know what to do with myself,” so they’ve been out. They’ve just been out hanging out. So I’m hoping that we can foster a space for youth that are just like migrating and hanging out. 
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 ; A place for them to be a little bit that’s a little bit more supervised, that’s safe, that gives them access to services. Because it’s been very interesting how like all the protests have rolled out and just youths, kind of, just hanging out in the city. Basement Poetry ; BLM ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; COVID-19 ; Liz Bradbury 0 672 Talking with Friends and Family Over Zoom LB: Well, Leonardo never made that horse, but other people have taken the designs that he made it and then they recreated it in a couple of different places, and that’s one of the places where it is. His design was much bigger than that, but it’s pretty, and it’s Leonardo, a genius who was gay, so, one of our ancestors. So for you personally in terms of communicating with people in your family or other -- of friends that you may not be able to be near with regard to social distancing and stuff, have you been using a lot of electronic conversations? Like where have you -- 
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 ; CCW: Oh yeah. It’s like Zoom, I -- even just today for work, I was on nothing but Zoom calls. Instagram Live is like our outreach pool, so we can say, “Hey, this is what we’re doing.” But with friends and family, I’m always on the phone, I’m always texting. It’s been really hard. I will say there were moments during this whole continuing on in this pandemic where I’m like, “I need to see my mom, I’m going to go see my mom, I don’t care, I’m seeing her, I don’t care, I just -- I can’t,” you know?
 ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; Leonardo da Vinci ; Liz Bradbury ; Zoom 0 878 Youth's Right to Shelter CCW: I guess one of my biggest concerns is shelter, right? I think that when... I have a very special relationship with one of our clients. When I had discovered that they were struggling in this way and had no place to go, I’m like, all right, so I’m going to go, and I’m going to hunt down all of my resources, so I’m pulling out all the resource guides, pulling out all the books that I’ve created and put together, all the protocol. And I’m looking at them and I’m like, There’s nothing that will work for this young person. And this young person is not under the age of 18, so it’s not like I can call Valley Youth House shelter. This young person is identifying as nonbinary, so it’s like putting them in a shelter can be so difficult. And Salvation Army and all of these other shelters are very religious, and there is follow your faith and do what is best in your practice and in your meeting and -- you know what I mean? That’s what nonprofits are, right? Like a lot of people start nonprofits from their hearts, right? 
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 ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; Shelter ; Valley Youth House Shelter ; Youth 0 1070 Allentown School Closings LB: -- high school seniors or college seniors? 
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 ; CCW: High school seniors. It was so immensely frustrating with how [00:18:00] everything -- the information was coming down and how everything was handled. Everything was very like just put together, which I get. We’ve never been... Our folk, I would at least say the generations like Millennials and Gen Z’s have never been through something like this. So you have half of the population that’s never been through a crisis and the other half who has experience with this kind of things. It’s just such a cluster of all of these mixed experiences, anyways. But with the schools, like the Allentown School District weren’t getting the things that they need right away. There was a moment where the kids didn’t even go to school for like -- or have any formal education for three and a half weeks, almost a month until April. In the midst of April, they were able to get like Wi-Fi to youth, [00:19:00] hotspots to youth, and technology to youth, and that was another concern of mine too. So, again, it was just like that just misinformed and then explaining to the youth that this happens sometimes. But when it consistently happens, they’re like, “What is going on?” and so then they’re in crisis, right, and they’re freaking out like, “What’s going on? I need answers,” you know what I mean, so... 
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 ; LB: Yeah. Young people really look to older people to fix things and explain things to them, and we have no answers on this. I mean I’m sixty-three years old, and there’s nothing in my life experience that compares to this. I can say that I know somebody who is one hundred four years old who’s been in the center by the way, who was alive during the flu epidemic of 1918. And that’s the only other thing that’s comparable to this one because [we?] had the flu. Because even if you look at HIV/AIDS, which was a very different thing, it wasn’t like everybody had it, and it was really [00:20:00] hard to get it. I mean, you can’t just get AIDS. You have to have sex with people and be involved with people. That’s not the same situation. On the other hand right now, every single -- this is a hopeful thing that you can say to youth is that every single scientist in the world that knows about this kind of stuff is working on this issue, which wasn’t true for AIDS. Nobody did anything about that for years -- 
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 ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; High school seniors ; Liz Bradbury 0 1166 Police Brutality and AIDS LB: Yeah. Young people really look to older people to fix things and explain things to them, and we have no answers on this. I mean I’m sixty-three years old, and there’s nothing in my life experience that compares to this. I can say that I know somebody who is one hundred four years old who’s been in the center by the way, who was alive during the flu epidemic of 1918. And that’s the only other thing that’s comparable to this one because [we?] had the flu. Because even if you look at HIV/AIDS, which was a very different thing, it wasn’t like everybody had it, and it was really hard to get it. I mean, you can’t just get AIDS. You have to have sex with people and be involved with people. That’s not the same situation. On the other hand right now, every single -- this is a hopeful thing that you can say to youth is that every single scientist in the world that knows about this kind of stuff is working on this issue, which wasn’t true for AIDS. Nobody did anything about that for years -- 
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 ; CCW: For -- yeah.
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 ; LB: -- and years and people just died, all over the place. Really, it sounds like such a tricky thing when you have young people who want these answers, and they’re not going to really put up with you saying, I don't know. 
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 ; CCW: Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean? I feel like all of my youth that I work with, I’ve known them for a very long time since Project SILK started. And so they are built with the same tenacity that I have and the same questioning of authority, questioning of the system, the same activist spirit. So I kind of set myself up to have these awesome kids that will advocate for themselves, but then in these situations I’m like, Why did I do this? (laughs) It’s been very complex. And even for my team, it’s been very hard to figure out how to have these conversations without having the meltdown. But luckily, we’re going to be starting some therapy services in August, so I think that’s going to really help with some of these, like this processing of all the things that are happening. And including the trauma that we are constantly exposed to with the Black Lives Matter, the police brutality but not just Black Lives Matter but like police brutality and systematic racism and microaggressions and all of these experiences that they’re having. They’re also processing that too at the same time that they’re processing a pandemic, and we’re in this in this civil unrest, and it’s like -- it’s a lot. They’re going through a lot right now. And then also, they’re seeing the systems start to crumble in front of them. So it’s like they were aware before that things weren’t good. But then when you’re not getting educated and your peers in the Whitehall School District or Parkland Area School District and Bethlehem Area School District are all on the computers doing their homework while you’re just waiting, it really does go to show you the barriers and how the system fails. And so many youth were responding to that like, “What do I do, what --? How do I respond to this?” And it’s just like email, email congress, email your local reps, make sure people know and are on top of what’s happening in your school. 
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 ; AIDS ; Allentown School District ; Black Lives Matter ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; HIV ; Liz Bradbury ; Police Brutality 0 1376 Importance of Voting LB: Right, right, right. Register to vote because some of them will be old enough too, so, you know? 
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 ; 
 ; CCW: Mm-hmm. Our kids right now are aging out -- not aging out, but they’re coming out of that phase where they’re in the drop-in center all the time. So the kids to that are in the drop-in center all the time between the ages of like 14 to 17. And then once they graduate high school, they’re really focused on their life and themselves and getting things together. So a lot of times, they’re not spending a lot of time there. So we have a lot of older youth there, so I’m always encouraging them to vote and be a part of and know your local government because that is where you have a lot of power and say in what happens here. 
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 ; 
 ; LB: Whenever I used to talk to running a voter’s -- an LGBT voter’s organization -- it’s called [PAL?], and we did that for many, many years -- one of the things we talk to people about is being a super voter. And a super voter is a person who votes in every election in the primary for four years in a row. And whether or not you vote is a matter of public record. So any person can get a list that shows whether or not you voted this in the primary and then that stuff, in the main election every year for years and years. And when you write a letter or you write an email or you write a card to your state representative, they look up to see whether you vote. That’s why they pay more attention to old people than they do to young people because older people vote -- are more likely to vote. So when they look at your super voter status or they’ll look to see and if you’re a super voter, they’ll listen to you. And if you’re not a voter, you’re not even registered, they figure, oh, you’re not going to vote for me anyway, who cares? And they really do that, and it’s a shame, but it’s true. And that’s the whole thing about the voice of voting because in the Obama elections, youth, college students and 18-year-olds put him in office. That’s the swing vote. That is the swing vote. And during the Obama election, Adrian organized -- sent hundreds of kids to go and vote at the voter’s places. And he was there at Muhlenberg College, and after he left, they stopped doing that. So like hundreds and hundreds of people were voting and then all of a sudden, they weren’t. And one of the things about us being in Pennsylvania is it’s a swing state. It really matters in Pennsylvania as opposed to like -- New York is always pretty liberal and New Jersey is pretty liberal, and people tend not to. It’s not so close, but it’s very close here. So that’s great that they’re doing that, good for them. Have you been talking to any of the youth and also for yourself stuff about Dr. Rachel Levine being our secretary of health, and she’s the one that’s been there in the health. And now what do you -- have you had a chance to see her and talk to youth about her? Allentown ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; Liz Bradbury ; Voting ; Youth 0 1570 Transgender Empowerment CCW: Yeah. A lot of youths are very upset with the way she’s treated. I think that that for our trans youth, like that has been the most difficult part of all of this is... Before the Black Lives Matter movement was like -- had this visceral showing up, we were really trying to manage conversations around transphobia. And every time because we’re seeing Rachel Levine, at one point we were seeing her almost every single day, which is beautiful. With style and grace, style and grace, she would like -- was amazing onstage and was amazing with giving us the information we needed, was very clear and concise, and was about to give us information that wasn’t too doctor-y, too wordy, or too -- or filled with things that didn’t matter to us, right? 
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 ; LB: Yeah. 
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 ; CCW: And it’s like even through that, even through all of that beauty and poise and intelligence, it’s like people were still just questioning her gender consistently. And I think for our clients, it was more so like, “Well, can that -- will that happen to me if I decide to do something like that? Am I possible?” Those are conversations, and we really worked with her and [Goodwin?]. We had a group, a trans health group that was really powerful, and we talked a lot about -- they talked a lot about passing and things like that. And how that is maybe important for your transition but also it’s not important for the social world. Like you don’t need to set up for hyper masculine or hyper feminine identities or these belief systems or these systems, like you don’t need to do that, right? And so, I don’t know. Some interesting conversations happened, and sometimes it would happen sporadically with our young people, so... Chloe Coles-Wilson ; Liz Bradbury ; Rachel Levine ; Trans ; Youths 0 1788 Lehigh Valley's Progressiveness
 ; CCW: And you’re in... You are representing an identity that people don’t want to embrace. Like I know for a while even myself when I was in chats, in conversations with my -- just like my family, we always have that conversation of “Why are you asking whether or not what her gender is? Like this is bad. It’s not the conversation we need to be having. She is giving us the most important health information day to day, and we need to listen to that. That has nothing to do with anything.” I think it’s a culture shock for Pennsylvania because I feel like sometimes we dress up. Especially in the Lehigh Valley, we dress up like we’re -- oh my God, we’re so progressive, yay, but we’re really not. We’re really behind on a lot of things. I always say to people, I’m like, “We’re always about ten -- five to ten years behind because like --” 
 ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; Lehigh Valley ; Liz Bradbury ; Progressive 0 1902 The Marginalized People LB: I know. I grew up in a suburb of New York City, and it was so conservative there. It was ridiculously conservative there. My parents were the only people who were democrats, and it doesn’t even mean that that’s radically... They were the only democrats that we knew in the entire town in the suburb. And now, it’s really one of the most progressive areas of the United States and Connecticut. So it’s an interesting thing to see, I guess. But that does happen in the suburbs, and it’s a shame, and we shouldn’t let them get away with it. There’s no question of it. I’d love to live in the city where it’s not like that per se, per se. I mean there are still issues, you know. 
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 ; CCW: Oh, for sure, for sure, for sure. It’s been very interesting. It’s been very interesting to see the hate because you -- like because I work... My life is working like LGBTQ+ folks, the marginalized people, I’m always in spaces -- not always, let me take that back. I’m mostly in spaces where I’m accepted genuinely pretty much. I’ll deal with microaggressions, and I’ll deal with moments of racism and things like that, which I’m not negating, but for the most part, I’m not like in fear of my life, right? But -- what was I going to say. But, yeah, but like I know that, and I’m now aware that this space is not safe all the time. And when I was starting to see those messages and the way -- and the comments about Rachel Levine and her appearance and the way she was presenting or whatever the case maybe and just like the little, snarky things that they would say about her, I’m like, holy crap, we are really behind. And I would have never thought that, but then again, I have to remind myself, I’m in certain spaces because of my work life. I have a girlfriend and our family’s very accepting. We have a language barrier. They speak Spanish, so there’s always like a cultural catcher, but other than that, my family’s very loving. There’s a lot of education around nonbinary and trans folk. And I’m always doing that work with them every day, and they’re always very accepting and loving. But like I forget, I forget, I really do. 
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 ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; LGBTQ+ ; Liz Bradbury ; New York City ; Progressive ; Rachel Levine 0 2056 The Writer's Surprise LB: Yeah. It’s amazing though because you could be talking to people who you just think are wonderful. My dad was a major -- I mean he worked with Martin Luther King, and he edited his books, and he was really, really involved with him when he was in New York City and stuff. And he was talking about all this, and he didn’t... I knew that he did these things, and he was very, very positive, and he had gay friends and he -- and stuff. And then all of a sudden, he -- I was saying... We lived in Connecticut, and I said, “So that place where we lived, where we went swimming, was that a restricted place?” and he goes, “Yeah, of course.” I’m like, “Wha-- why would you do that?" And then he’s telling me about this club for writers and editors and stuff that he belonged to in New York City -- it was called the Coffee House -- where people in literature were members of this club. It was only for men, and I said, “Well, yeah, because there’s no women writers. I mean --”
 ; Connecticut ; Liz Bradbury ; Martin Luther King ; New York City 0 2159 The Racists World is Changing CCW: Right. I don't know. I feel like... And now as I’m thinking of the Black Lives Matter movement, I feel like the current administration definitely has tapped some souls and some wounds on some people and had opened up this space of like, Well now, I don’t have to be silent about my bigotry, but it’s expressive, it’s beautiful that they don't have to be silent anymore. It’s very strange to see. It’s very strange to see this. It’s very weird how folks who are very supportive of Trump and who are racists will open up and be like, “Oh, I feel safer now. Now that he’s in office, I can say what I want to say, and all lives matter,” and so then -- you know what I mean? Like, ah, I don’t know. But I will say that like I... 
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 ; It’s something I’ve learned in this -- in the very short amount of time that I’ve done a lot -- the activism that I’ve done. In the last five years, I’ve just learned that racists are in a different place, and they will come down when they are ready. They will work on their stuff when they are ready, and being triggered by them will do nothing for you. And so that’s something I’ve really been working a lot on especially with our youth. Like you’re going to see racist things. George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Nina Pop, Tony McDade, these are all racist acts of state sanctioned violence or police brutality, right? You’re going to see these things. 
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 ; This is the unfortunate and sad world that we are in. But we have to turn our rage into something else, right, because we will -- we’ll self-destruct. And that was something I took a lot -- it took me a really long time to really work on. Because I’m just like any time that I experience a microaggression or any racism, I would get so hot and so angry. And I would be in this place of just kind of thinking about it and letting it churn in my head for weeks and weeks and months on end and then I’m recognizing that like I haven’t, one, done anything about it, and, two, I’m making myself sick. 
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 ; So it’s been something that I’ve been really working actively on is not even responding to the racist comments on Morning Call, the racist comments that are seen on WFMC, especially when -- as we’re talking about the movement and as we’re processing the things that are happening around us. Because also, too, racists are going through -- and not that I’m giving them any empathy at all whatsoever, but racists are going through a huge change in their whole life. Everything is changing around them. The Redskins have dropped their name and logo, so that’s -- for a lot of people who are committed to that team, that’s hard, you know what I mean? And I’m, whatever, this is what you’re processing. I’m processing death and safety ; you’re processing a logo. That’s cool. That’s fine. Black Lives Matter ; Chloe Cole-Wilson ; Racism ; Trump 0 2362 The Changing World of Racism CCW: -- I don’t know. It’s very interesting to watch racist folks just kind of implode and like -- and white America too in general to just implode and be like, holy crap, I have to do all this work now. I have to process my identity, I have to process myself, I have to really watch my microaggressions, I have to do all this. It’s been really intense for everyone. It’s been a lot for everyone. I don’t have much empathy for that, but I will say that like I think we have to put into consideration as we’re doing this work that everyone is at a different place. And so that’s really been healing for me because I’ve been -- I get really wrapped up in what people say. I get really wrapped up in it sometimes and so I’m like, no, no, no, no, I’ve got to let it go. Morning Call is going to be racist comments because it’s been -- we’re in Pennsylvania, so... (laughs) Chloe Coles-Wilson ; Racism 0 2549 Changes in Philosophy LB: “-- stop just thinking that it’s hard to do this because it’s change.” And I think that’s a very good point that you’re making and it’s a... And it does drive you crazy, and you have to stop ha-- I don’t have any empathy for racists even though when people would say things like, “Well, you know it’s hard and they...” I can’t, I can’t and maybe it’s because I’m older but I just -- like there is just... There’s a very important saying that hit me very hard years ago and it was you cannot make compromises with people who don’t think that everybody should -- that minority people and disenfranchised people should have equal rights because they would deny us oxygen if they could. So ask -- expect every equality, expect total equity because if you say, “Well, we’ll take this half nod from you,” they don’t even want to give us oxygen, come on, you know? They be -- yeah. 
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 ; Change ; Liz Bradbury ; Minorities ; Racism 0 2829 The Life of an Everyday Person During COVID-19 LB: -- say it hasn’t, it has. Have you noticed anything that is just glaringly different for you? 
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 ; CCW: Oh, I feel like my sleep cycle, sleep has changed immensely. So I already was a night owl, so two o'clock was the cap. That was like I’m up too late, I’m going to go to sleep. But when COVID started and because I was working at home, and all I had to do was like wake up, put on a T-shirt, make sure -- put on my pajama pants, make sure I look somewhat decent, and I’m ready to go, I had all the time in the world. I didn’t have a 30-minute commute. I like to say 30 minutes because I like to take my time driving and listening to music and stuff. But I have a 30-minute commute, and get ready in the morning will be another [00:48:00] hour so that’s an hour and a half that I’ve now saved. But I -- because of the anxiety of the pandemic and the anxiety of not knowing what’s going to happen next, and as the pandemic went through and then now we’re in this civil unrest -- at the end of May we’re in the civil unrest, my sleep schedule is like whatever, you know what I mean? I’ll wake up in six o'clock in the morning and then I’ll start. I’ll answer some emails, I’ll casually do some filing, organize some things, get myself kind of prepared for the day and then I’ll go back to sleep and then I’ll wake up again. My sleep has been so off because we’re -- I’m just so comfortable with being at home, and I get so stir-crazy. So that was one of the biggest changes. Now, my partner is an essential worker. Well, I don’t even like using that term, but she has to go outside to work. And for her, she’s -- everything is the same. If you were to ask her this question, she’d be like, “I don’t think my life has changed much, I just miss my family” because she has older parents. Her mom is like forty-eight and her dad sixty-three. Well, her mom is not older ; it’s her dad that’s older. So they couldn’t see each other, and he’s already had cancer in his health history, and he has diabetes. So things are really like we cannot see them at all whatsoever. That’s just a no go. We can’t even take the risk, you know what I mean? So for her, that’s the only thing that she would say, but other than that, all parts of her life is kind of like the same, you know?
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 ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; COVID-19 ; Liz Bradbury ; Routines 0 3108 Biggest Pandemic Fear LB: Yeah. Well, people are scared. So are you scared about getting it? 
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 ; CCW: I think my biggest fear about getting it is -- oh. I feel like my biggest fear about getting it is it’s just transferring it to older people in my life like my grandmother. So my grandmother is also sixty-three. She’s spry, she’s doing her thing, she doesn’t have any serious health issues, and she’s very, very, very, very health conscious and very -- and eats very well and cares about her diet, cares about her, all of that stuff, so... But that’s my biggest fear with getting it. As for me getting it, I’m a young, healthy person, and from the statistics, young and healthy people usually live and survive and sometimes become asymptomatic. So that’s something I was holding on to for a while. Because even when I was working with youth out on the ground, I had a scare where I was like, oh, snap, this youth is getting tested. So I had to quarantine until her results came in and that was really terrifying. But it was mostly terrifying because of the way like work set it up. They’re like, “You can’t do anything, none of this, no, no, no, no, no.” And I’m just like, “Oh, okay,” and it made COVID-19 really real for me. (laughs)
 ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; COVID-19 ; Grandmother ; Grocery Store ; Liz Bradbury 0 3208 Client's Low Income Mother Has COVID-19 CCW: Yes, I did, I did. Not any of like my close immediate friends, but a client’s mother had it. So that for that client -- and that was another moment during this pandemic that was interesting was a lot of our clients because they’re low-income folk, a lot of them who are... And especially if they’re like fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, they’re the caregivers in their home. So teaching a young person how to be a caregiver for a disease that we don’t understand or a virus we don’t understand was one of the -- one of my most challenging moments with this young person. Because it really was like -- you have books on how to take care of your younger siblings, you have all this education. But it’s like how do you take care of your mother who’s also -- has asthma, has COVID-19, and how do you, one, have her quarantine in your home when you have one bathroom? So it was like creating a whole new plan with this young person on how to keep the house healthy while also having them literally run the household. For that young person, it was so scary, it was so frightening, you know? It’s like, holy crap, now I have to do all these things that I didn’t think I had to do in these two weeks. Before I was doing it, but now, it’s a little different because mom is like completely out of the picture, you know, what I mean because she has to self-quarantine, so -- yeah.
 ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; Client's mother ; COVID-19 ; Low Income 0 3317 Chloe Coles-Wilson's Concern For Her Mother CCW: That too was like one of my -- if -- concerns about COVID too is like if my mom were to get sick, you know what I mean. My mom is -- I think she’s turning fifty this year, so she’ll be forty-nine. Well, she’ll be forty-nine -- she’ll be fifty ; she’s forty-nine. If she got sick and I couldn’t see her, I would be a mess. I would be a mess, and I would be a mess, I would be very upset and devastated especially if like she died and she died without even me knowing. Because I think like a lot of -- a lot about COVID-19 that has been very complex and difficult is the messaging between the providers and the patient’s families. Because they’re so focused on keeping themselves safe, keeping the hospital safe, keeping the people that are in the hospital safe, keeping all the patients safe, separating the non-COVID patients from the COVID patients. So this whole like I’m going to get back to this family about a death that just happened is maybe happening a little bit later in the day, you know what I mean? Even though it’s a huge deal for the family, but for them, their list of worries is so large. You were constantly seeing that in the news too of like... And again, more conspiracy theory of these folks just struggling to get information to people but also struggling to take care of their patients because they’re -- it was just so much. It’s so much. And even now, one of my staff members was like, “I’m very afraid,” and I was like, “What are you afraid of?” And I get what she’s afraid of, but she’s just like. “I’m afraid of the uptick and what is going to happen with the hospitals again because the hospitals were packed for so long.” It’s just such a general fear of like there’ll not be enough of anything, so... 
 ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; Cole Coles-Wilson's Mother ; COVID-19 0 3454 Civil Unrest During the Pandemic LB: Well, what’s the biggest frustration you’re having from all of this stuff? I mean we’re talking about a variety of things but... 
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 ; CCW: I think my biggest frustration is us in civil unrest during a pandemic. I think that is the hardest part of all of this is that. It’s, oh, like you would think that with the... Because what I’ve noticed, at least, in my social circles is like everyone who is on unemployment, they’re getting the extra six hundred dollars a week, so they’re now making money. And I’m a professional, and I’m in a management position, you know what I mean, so you would think I get the big bucks at this point, but no, definitely not. But people are making more money than me, right? So there is this sense of happiness amongst the people of my life, you know what I mean, especially since like we -- like my families have been very poor and low income. So I’ve noticed that there have been a lot of folks who are low income just experience just kind of some happier moments, you know what I mean? Because there’s more money and there’s more funds and there’s more things available. Who was that going on with this? What was the question again for -- 
 ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; Civil Unrest ; Money ; Pandemic ; Stimulus Checks 0 3564 Civil Unrest in the Transgender Community LB: Well, you were -- 
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 ; LB: -- talking about civil unrest. You were talking about -- 
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 ; CCW: Yes, yes, okay, there we go, sorry. But at the same time, you would think that like police brutality wasn’t going to be happening during this time. You would think like the amount of Black transwomen who have died, six transwomen died in a week, that is absolutely ridiculous, you know what I mean? There has been just so much police brutality, trans violence, racism, systematic racism, and it’s like it doesn’t stop. And so think that’s the most frustrating because I’m watching my friends and then family finally get like a leg up. They get this extra money, people are saving, they’ve got the extra 1200. Some people kind of financially did pretty well during this whole thing and then it’s like this violence continues on. But racism is going to continue, and that system is going to continue on, and it’s like, damn, when are we going to catch a break, so... And I would get mostly frustrated with people pushing back about the protests and pushing back about why are people outside, and I get it, I get it. We’re in a pandemic, but people need to move, people need to do this work. I’ve been really proud of a lot of activists who have been finding ways to get folks who cannot be out involved, and that has been really good, but it’s -- you know. I think that’s my biggest frustration is the civil unrest and how we’re still dealing with these big crises on such a larger level? Because Tony McDade, Nina Pop, Breonna Taylor, and George Floyd, they happened almost in a couple of months, right? It’s like the same time frame, so it’s like, holy crap, that is insane. What is happening here? Yeah, that’s my biggest frustration. Breonna Taylor ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; George Floyd ; Liz Bradbury ; Nina Pop ; Tony McDade ; Transgender 0 3700 Bradbury's Take on Police Brutality LB: You know what I think about that though as? I think about that kind of horrible racist crime has been going on with that ferocity all along but that now, people are say -- First of all, they have -- always have their cameras with them with their video, and so there’s been so much more live video footage of this happening so that other people can’t say, “Well, that’s just not happening, it didn’t really happen that way, these people shouldn’t have been -- they caused what happened to them.” And you say, “Look at this, that’s not what happened, look, look at this.” And the other thing is that I think people are fed up with it and so when it happens, they’re making a public issue about it, which I don’t think has happened as much in the last 20 years as it’s doing now. And in part it is because people are... I mean people are speaking up about it more, which I think is very, very positive to me I mean for white people who are clueless and I have people... I know plenty of white people who are clueless and certainly some people in my family and other parts of my family who will just try to look for some kind of excuse for this kind of stuff, and they’re seeing these videos, and they’re saying -- I’m saying, “You can’t look at this and say --” this is what happened in Allentown. “You cannot look at this and say this was all right. You have to stretch beyond any kind of credibility to say that this nine-minute video shows appropriate action by the police. It doesn’t ; it just doesn’t. And if you’re saying that, you’re lying because it just doesn’t say that.” I watched that video six times, and I wrote down every single thing that happened in it. And I saw -- I -- the police said that they had -- that the man had fallen down and they fell down with him. When you watch the video, you can see the police kicked his feet out from under him and pushed him to the ground. They lied in their public -- 
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 ; George Floyd ; Liz Bradbury ; Police Brutality ; White People 0 3913 Discussion About Policing CCW: Exactly. Because policing is a very toxic culture, you know what I mean? 
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 ; LB: Yes. 
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 ; CCW: And after a while, once you -- because even -- and even in the line of social work, I’ve seen some things, I’ve heard some awful, horrendous, terrible stories. And I’ve only been doing -- I’ve been doing volunteer work for about seven years but -- and always in the community for a really long time, but this work with Project SILK has only been for three years. And in these three years, I have heard, seen, some crazy stuff, and it really doesn’t change the way you see people. But once I get to that point where I’m like -- I’m starting to see -- feel myself fall back into like bigotry or fall back into like a space of hatred, I’m like, I need to train, I need to train, I need to read, I need to educate myself. I need to get back into this place because -- and I need to like have healthy, healthy conversations with a therapist. I need to do self-care. Because that’s when I know that, one, I’m tried, and it’s -- I’m exhausted, right? And that’s what I think is happening with a lot of police officers is that their exposure to violence is insane, it’s insane, you know? In my place as a social worker, my exposure to violence is pretty intense, but I’m getting folks either prior to events or after something very terrible has happened. Because I also do like sex trafficking work with the shelter as well, and I do trainings on that with our agency. And some of the stories I’ve heard from these young folks is devastating stuff. But again, I’m only hearing it. Just imagine being the police officer seeing and reacting and doing the -- that physical brunt work in order to take care of a person. And they’re constantly being shown this stuff and so their place of bigotry and hatred if it already isn’t there. Because a lot of police officers go into this work either thinking I’m going to do the best, I’m going to be a public server, I’m going to do a great job. Some police officers, and it’s very, very rare but some do go into this work being like, I’m racist and I want to continue to raise Havoc in my area. I have upset, like mental health issues, whatever the case maybe, I want to be a terror right? Chloe Coles-Wilson ; Liz Bradbury ; Police Officers ; Project SILK 0 4173 Allentown Policing LB: Well, it’s certainly true that -- I mean I think that it -- for police officers in Allentown, most of them do not live in the city. They believe that they -- their experience is that every single person they come in contact with is either a person who has done something bad, they believe that, or because it so frequently is, or a victim of somebody who has done something bad. That there is no in between. There’s no activists and people planting gardens and folks that are playing with their kids, and there’s just nobody that isn’t a perpetrator for them because everybody they deal with is a perpetrator. And that’s one of the problems with the way police are that they -- that they’re totally reactive. So they only are there to react to some emergency situation, which is often a very negative thing. And they never have experiences working with people in the community to -- let’s build a, I don’t know, a garden shelter in the park. They never do that. They never say, “Well, we’re here today to be at this big barbecue for the community, to just hang out with you to see what you think is going on in the community.” We never do that. And so as a consequence, their constant experiences with people who they either think may have done something bad or who have really done something bad. And then they have this terrible, terrible attitude about the city because they never see anything positive in the city. They just never see anything positive any place in the whole -- anywhere at Lehigh Valley. A lot of them live way up in the Poconos, and they’re afraid, they’re afraid to live in the city. I’ve actually had them say, “I’m afraid to live in the city because my family would be terrorized,” and there’s actually no statistical evidence to that at all. I mean there’s lots of older police officers that have lived in the city for years and years and years, and they manage softball teams for kids and they do all sorts of stuff and they... I know some of these guys. And they don’t think everything is bad because they live here, and they know that there is an organization like Project SILK that’s having youth programs in the park, hanging out. They’re just doing it, so... But they’re conditioned to be constantly suspicious of everything because they never have an experience that is anything other -- in fact, they never get out of their cars or off their bicycles. Even the bicycle cops don’t get off their bicycles. 
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 ; Allentown ; Allentown Police ; Lehigh Valley ; Liz Bradbury ; Poconos ; Project SILK 0 4487 Solutions to Police Brutality CCW: It’s continuous. So police officers should be going to a racial equity training yearly. They should be attending these things. These things are important and vital for the education of self. And I think everyone should consider those things. I read up, and I read up and I’m constantly paying attention to human rights campaign, them, any LGBTQ+ resource area. I’ll have scheduled time to be like, all right, I need to make sure I’m caught up with language of the times. I’ll talk to my youth, “Are there new -- are there anything new that I should know? Is there information I should know? Is there culture pieces that I should know, so I am aware and I am not hurting you?” If you are a public servant or you are a person that’s working with social services, you need to do that work consistently. 
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 ; LB: Right, right, right. That’s really true. Well, we’re just about to the end of this. So imagine that somebody is looking back at this from 30 years hence, and it could be you because you’ll still be around. I won’t be but you will be. So you looking back, people are looking back at this way in the future, and you’re going to give them a message about what’s going on now, maybe a message of hope and a message of awareness that you could pass on to them, what would you say? What’s sort of a thing that you would say about that? Chloe Coles-Wilson ; LGBTQ+ ; Liz Bradbury ; Police Officers 0 4607 Training and Workshops CCW: Exactly. That’s something that I’ve been really pushing with my supervisor is that our staff needs consistent, constant workshop, training, workshop, training. Training is a little bit more official because they’re learning a new skill. Workshop is where you practice, have some conversation, it’s a little bit more lighter, right? I guess I would just tell people who are peering into the future is I hope people are still reading. I hope people are still educating themselves and really spending that time. Because ego trips are serious, and I feel like a lot of times when you think you are so woke and so educated, you tend to completely breeze by education. You completely breeze by things that you should know, and you become ignorant very quickly. So I’m always ready and always open, and I hope the same for people in the future too. 
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 ; LB: Oh, that’s a great thing to say. Thank you so much for saying that and for doing this interview. And I’m so glad that we got a chance to talk, and it’s been really helpful. And I hope you stay safe and your partner stays safe who has to be an essential worker, which I do understand that that term is -- actually means for many people, you have to work, but we don’t have to pay you a lot of money. And you don’t -- Chloe Coles-Wilson ; Liz Bradbury ; Training ; Workshops 0 4746 Counseling Work CCW: There’s going to be a few things that we’re going to work out. The therapist is like now she is becoming licensed, which I’m like, yay, proud for her. She just finished her licensure. Her first test -- I think she has a second test to take for some other level of licensing, but... So the counseling will work where it would be like short-term counseling. So we would say that the client would be able to see the -- I’m sorry. The client will be able to see the therapist for six to eight weeks and then we will review and see if -- that there needs to be any more further like treatment. And a lot of the focus would just be on the gender and sexuality stuff. She has a ton of training on LGBTQ+, Black and brown youth and how those intersections affect health. She is amazing, and she’s also getting a certification in geek therapy, which is like video game therapy. So that’s really, really, really cool. So that’s where we’re at now. We’re going to kind of keeping it short term just to get her flexible. She is only -- just to get her in a good place. She is only part time, so her caseload is probably going to be like maybe 15 to 20 youth, kind of the starts -- 
 ; Black ; Brown ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; LGBTQ+ ; Therapist ; Youth 0 4867 Turning People Away CCW: You can’t just turn people away because you’re uncomfortable, then you need to quit your job.
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 ; LB: That’s really true. When HAVEN first started over at -- in Bethlehem, they kept talking about -- the people at the church kept talking about it -- and we were involved at the beginning of it, kept talking about how they wanted to train people to... Because the youth were at risk and they kept talking about the high level of or the high instance of suicide and the high instance of self-harm. But then they would get these really problem kids, young people who would -- problem youth who would come to the thing. And they’d say, “Well, this person is too much of a problem, we can’t have him around here.” (laughs) Some of the people that I was working with said, “Okay, wait a minute, these are the kids that are the highest risk. You can’t tell them that they’re the ones that can’t come here.”
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 ; Bethlehem ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; HAVEN ; Liz Bradbury ; Problem Youth 0 5040 Closing Remarks CCW: That culture is still continuing on and so they’re -- they have -- they’re a part of the house and they go to balls and they compete and they are professional voguers. So that was just such a unique piece to our team, and we’re really excited, so... 
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 ; LB: Cool, all right, I can see that, yeah, good. That sounds exciting. I think that’s an excellent thing. Well, good. Well, thank you again so much, and I really, really appreciate it, and it’s been great to talk to you. And I hope you have a great -- a nice rest of the evening and get a little chance to regulate your sleep patterns. Chloe Coles-Wilson ; Closing Statements ; Culture ; Liz Bradbury 0 MovingImage Chloe Coles-Wilson describes how the LGBTQIA+ youth coped with COVID-19, by talking about her experiences with activism. She talks about her experience working for Project SILK in the Lehigh Valley, and how her experience there has shaped her. She also addresses the racial inequalities going on in the US, and offers her opinion to the interviewer. Ultimately, she talks about her activism and how COVID-19 has affected the community. Chloe Coles-Wilson 2020-07-14 LIZ BRADBURY: -- a little problem. Okay. So there we go, and I'm going to turn the audio on too. Now, I'm going to read you these -- this piece -- this intro. Oh, turn off my phone. (laughs) I write that right on here, so I don't forget to do it. CHLOE COLE-WILSON: (laughs) LB: And I want to also pin -- oops -- pin you in this. Okay. It's good. Pin in the video, I got the audio, okay, it's good, and record it. So with this project, Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury, and I'm here with Chloe Cole- Wilson -- is that right -- to -- CCW: Right. LB: -- I suddenly blanked on it, I was like, wait, I just remember it now -- to talk to her about her experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of the COVID-19 pandemic as part of the Lehigh Valley's LGBT Community Archive. Oh, we're meeting on Zoom on July 14, 2020. So thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start, can you please state your full name and spell it for me? CCW: Do you want my middle name too? LB: Sure, why not. CCW: Okay. Chloe Amanda Cole-Wilson, C-H-L-O-E A-M-A-N-D-A C-O-L-E-W-I-L-S-O-N. LB: Good, okay. And will you please share your birthdate? CCW: March 20, 1992. LB: Okay. And you are in Allentown, is that right? We have to have the right town. CCW: I'm in Bethlehem. LB: In Bethlehem, okay. So this is the consent part. Do you consent to this interview today? CCW: Yes, I do. LB: Good. Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable formats? CCW: Yeah. LB: Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats including films, articles, websites, presentations, and other formats that we may not even know today? CCW: Okay. Sounds good. LB: Do you understand that you will have thirty days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview, to review your interview, identify any parts you'd like to delete and or withdraw from your -- from the project? CCW: Yes. LB: Okay? Yes. Okay. So this is just a little bit of identity stuff. What is your ZIP code, so we can have a demographic? CCW: 18018 LB: Okay, and what is your age? CCW: Twenty-eight. LB: And how do you identify within the LGBT community? So basic SOGIE stuff or whatever you want to say. You can say whatever you want in this. CCW: I identify as queer. LB: Okay. Oh, so here are some of these thing. And so I already sent these questions. And the concept of the archive, I like to think about it as that there will be people who will, hopefully, look at this many years in the future to see what it was like for people at this point in the COVID epidemic in the Lehigh Valley who are part of the core community to get sort of an idea. Because there have been other circumstances with pandemics and epidemics where we really didn't talk about people's personal experiences. You can say anything you want about this. I have some of those questions. You can answer those, or you can think about those. I'll ask those if you want, but you can say whatever you want. But let's start out with this, are you by yourself in your home or do you have other people there or what's the deal? CCW: It's myself and my partner and then we have three other roommates. LB: Oh, okay, okay. I know the answers to some of these things, but you could talk about this for the archives. Have you been working, has your employer closed or laid off, and why don't you talk about a little bit what you do? CCW: Yeah. So I am program coordinator for Project SILK Lehigh Valley, which is an LGBT drop-in center that focuses on Black and brown youth. So a lot of the work that I've been doing during this time is just planning, programming, and getting the Valley Youth House staff in a place where they feel comfortable providing services virtually while also responding to crisis. During this time, we did have a few youth that became homeless and so it was trying to respond to those needs as quickly as we possibly could with -- considering my safety, my staff's safety, and things like that, the youth safety, so yeah. LB: How did that work out? I mean I know you can't talk specifically about youth, but why don't you describe a little bit how that happened? And I think that's really important stuff. CCW: Mm-hmm. So a lot of what we did was six feet, we stayed six feet away, we were masked up. We supplied some hand sanitizer to our workers and things like that. But I was one of the only workers that was really out working with a youth who was identifying as like unsheltered and was living in what -- in Allentown, what people would call it as like tent city where folks -- where all the unsheltered folks kind of cohabitate together and exist. So a lot of it was just like dropping things off on the corner and being like, "Hey, these items are here. I will wait for you to pick up these items." And then, you know, sometimes because we are in partnership with a shelter as well, to give and provide HIV, STI testing but also provide sexual health counseling and things like that. In those moments, we were meeting outside on the porch six feet away. Now that restrictions have lessened, we've been doing some more contact work with our other sites. There's been some very interesting things that I've done to try to appease the youth and provide the service, you know? LB: Yeah, and stay safe at the same time and have every -- CCW: Yeah. Mm-hmm. LB: That's tricky stuff, so... And is that your main thing that you do? So that's pretty much the main thing you do that you're setting up those kinds of things. So right now, those are the things that you're working on, and there is virtual programming that's going out to people? CCW: Mm-hmm. Actually starting tomorrow, we're going back into some more in-person services. Monday -- no, I'm sorry, Wednesdays and Fridays, we're going to do like luncheon/snack services. So from one to three, we'll meet with the youth at Arts Park because it gives us the ability to have the space to social distance. We'll take temperatures, we'll ask COVID-19 questions, do quick screenings, and then they are able to be in this drop-in space. Now, if they want to schedule testing, they can, but it can only be one appointment at a time. So that's where we're at with our protocols and things like that. LB: That's a great place too. So Art Park like right in front of the art museum in that big, grassy area? CCW: Mm-hmm. LB: A little place for croquet. (laughs) CCW: Yeah. What happened? Oh, for -- LB: [That we?] frequent for croquet -- CCW: Oh, yeah. (laughs) LB: -- or lawn bowling then. CCW: Listen, we're trying to think of some activities, so that might be on my list to be like, "Look, let's play croquet." LB: Lawn bowling would be really good. I think we should have a lawn bowling team there actually someday when we can finally be around in a circumstance like that. But that's a great place because it's got tables and -- you know? CCW: Mm-hmm. LB: They're right there. You don't have to schlep a lot of stuff over there. It's great. It looks -- CCW: And it's like a central place, so kids coming from all over the city will be able to just kind of know where it is, access where it is, and it kind of works. And also too, we might be able to interact with new youth there because there has been a lot of youth out because of the protesting, the Black Lives Matter protests that are happening right now, which is -- it's so crazy because that's on the other end of the work that I do. I also have an arts organization called Basement Poetry. And we've been doing some activism and advocacy around just like so many things, police brutality, inclusive shelters that will allow trans and gender nonbinary folks to identify in the identity that is theirs. Because if they cannot, it is a health risk. So that's been something that we've been really talking a lot about with these other organizations that are Black and brown ran. It's how to have inclusive spaces. Talking with city council about this. When we're defending the police like when this funding starts trickling down, making sure these organizations are anti-racist, making sure these organizations are anti-oppressive. That's another piece of this too. But what's interesting is the area like... Because the kids are so like, "I don't know what's going on, I don't know what to do with myself," so they've been out. They've just been out hanging out. So I'm hoping that we can foster a space for youth that are just like migrating and hanging out. A place for them to be a little bit that's a little bit more supervised, that's safe, that gives them access to services. Because it's been very interesting how like all the protests have rolled out and just youths, kind of, just hanging out in the city. LB: Yeah. Don't forget that when you're at the Art Park that that giant bronze horse that's at the -- across [from the art school?] was designed by Leonardo da Vinci who was gay. CCW: Oh, wow. That's awesome. I would love to share that with our kids. LB: Well, Leonardo never made that horse, but other people have taken the designs that he made it and then they recreated it in a couple of different places, and that's one of the places where it is. His design was much bigger than that, but it's pretty, and it's Leonardo, a genius who was gay, so, one of our ancestors. So for you personally in terms of communicating with people in your family or other -- of friends that you may not be able to be near with regard to social distancing and stuff, have you been using a lot of electronic conversations? Like where have you -- CCW: Oh yeah. It's like Zoom, I -- even just today for work, I was on nothing but Zoom calls. Instagram Live is like our outreach pool, so we can say, "Hey, this is what we're doing." But with friends and family, I'm always on the phone, I'm always texting. It's been really hard. I will say there were moments during this whole continuing on in this pandemic where I'm like, "I need to see my mom, I'm going to go see my mom, I don't care, I'm seeing her, I don't care, I just -- I can't," you know? LB: Yeah. CCW: It was really difficult not being able to have these interactions with my friends. And it's so funny because my friend [Will?] who is also gay, we were talking about how even the internet, like the way he interacts with guys and men, it's crazy, you know what I mean? He's single, so I'm always talking about safety because I'm like, "Well, you know, your friend is a healthcare provider, so I'm just going to just let you know like no kissing and remember washing your hands after the stuff." But he was even saying that online, it's insane that people are still meeting up, you know? LB: Yeah. CCW: So I felt less guilty to see my mom after I heard about that, so... (laughs) LB: Yeah, and you be careful and you can -- you know? You know what your level of danger is, and I'm sure she does too. But, yeah, I was just talking to somebody else about that some people are really not being careful in terms of hooking up with apps and stuff. And it's -- CCW: Oh, not at all -- LB: -- other people would say -- in fact, I was just talking to Ariel and he was saying, "It's the hi, bye kind of thing, hi, bye, but this is just going to be bye." (laughter) Because (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible). He just coined that. He said that "It's not going to be -- it's not going to be hi if there's no carefulness in here." So let me see. We did that. We've got a lot of stuff going on and -- but let's talk about what your biggest concerns are during the pandemic and concerns for the Lehigh -- for -- in the LGBT community, of the Lehigh Valley. And I do want to have a whole section where I want you to talk about Black Lives Matter, but if you want to talk about that during this part of the conversation, that's fine, go ahead and do that too. So -- CCW: Okay, cool. LB: -- [you're?] -- CCW: I guess one of my biggest concerns is shelter, right? I think that when... I have a very special relationship with one of our clients. When I had discovered that they were struggling in this way and had no place to go, I'm like, all right, so I'm going to go, and I'm going to hunt down all of my resources, so I'm pulling out all the resource guides, pulling out all the books that I've created and put together, all the protocol. And I'm looking at them and I'm like, There's nothing that will work for this young person. And this young person is not under the age of 18, so it's not like I can call Valley Youth House shelter. This young person is identifying as nonbinary, so it's like putting them in a shelter can be so difficult. And Salvation Army and all of these other shelters are very religious, and there is follow your faith and do what is best in your practice and in your meeting and -- you know what I mean? That's what nonprofits are, right? Like a lot of people start nonprofits from their hearts, right? LB: Mm-hmm. CCW: But there is this moment where it's like when will you start to follow and understand your populations and understand the people that are in your community? And so places like the Rescue Mission, I would never send kids there. It's like the most unsafe place for LGBTQ+ youth or LGBTQ- people in general. Because it's a men's shelter, but at the same time if you have any type of like, say, moment, hand gesture, gender expression that is not masculine, you are ostracized and treated a certain way in that space. So that's my biggest concern is sheltering and especially sheltering for trans and gender nonconforming folks. Now turning point, they're really open and have been really working on being gender inclusive, but the pieces. It's like you -- there has to be DV in your case. So if there's no domestic violence in your case, then there's no space at their shelter because that's their focus. So that's one of my concerns. Another one of my concerns has always been the way things have been kind of given us. Like the messages have been given coming down like news and how youth process it. Because as COVID started, I remember we have two peer navigators [Xander?] and [Michelle?], and I just remember them just completely shutting down. This is senior year for them, so this is a very important year of their life, and they're excited for everything that we're going to do at the center, they're going to do in their school life. And I just remember them just like mentally gone, shut down when they figured out school was going to be closed because of COVID. LB: So they were -- CCW: And it's like -- LB: -- high school seniors or college seniors? CCW: High school seniors. It was so immensely frustrating with how everything -- the information was coming down and how everything was handled. Everything was very like just put together, which I get. We've never been... Our folk, I would at least say the generations like Millennials and Gen Z's have never been through something like this. So you have half of the population that's never been through a crisis and the other half who has experience with this kind of things. It's just such a cluster of all of these mixed experiences, anyways. But with the schools, like the Allentown School District weren't getting the things that they need right away. There was a moment where the kids didn't even go to school for like -- or have any formal education for three and a half weeks, almost a month until April. In the midst of April, they were able to get like Wi-Fi to youth, hotspots to youth, and technology to youth, and that was another concern of mine too. So, again, it was just like that just misinformed and then explaining to the youth that this happens sometimes. But when it consistently happens, they're like, "What is going on?" and so then they're in crisis, right, and they're freaking out like, "What's going on? I need answers," you know what I mean, so... LB: Yeah. Young people really look to older people to fix things and explain things to them, and we have no answers on this. I mean I'm sixty-three years old, and there's nothing in my life experience that compares to this. I can say that I know somebody who is one hundred four years old who's been in the center by the way, who was alive during the flu epidemic of 1918. And that's the only other thing that's comparable to this one because [we?] had the flu. Because even if you look at HIV/AIDS, which was a very different thing, it wasn't like everybody had it, and it was really hard to get it. I mean, you can't just get AIDS. You have to have sex with people and be involved with people. That's not the same situation. On the other hand right now, every single -- this is a hopeful thing that you can say to youth is that every single scientist in the world that knows about this kind of stuff is working on this issue, which wasn't true for AIDS. Nobody did anything about that for years -- CCW: For -- yeah. LB: -- and years and people just died, all over the place. Really, it sounds like such a tricky thing when you have young people who want these answers, and they're not going to really put up with you saying, I don't know. CCW: Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean? I feel like all of my youth that I work with, I've known them for a very long time since Project SILK started. And so they are built with the same tenacity that I have and the same questioning of authority, questioning of the system, the same activist spirit. So I kind of set myself up to have these awesome kids that will advocate for themselves, but then in these situations I'm like, Why did I do this? (laughs) It's been very complex. And even for my team, it's been very hard to figure out how to have these conversations without having the meltdown. But luckily, we're going to be starting some therapy services in August, so I think that's going to really help with some of these, like this processing of all the things that are happening. And including the trauma that we are constantly exposed to with the Black Lives Matter, the police brutality but not just Black Lives Matter but like police brutality and systematic racism and microaggressions and all of these experiences that they're having. They're also processing that too at the same time that they're processing a pandemic, and we're in this in this civil unrest, and it's like -- it's a lot. They're going through a lot right now. And then also, they're seeing the systems start to crumble in front of them. So it's like they were aware before that things weren't good. But then when you're not getting educated and your peers in the Whitehall School District or Parkland Area School District and Bethlehem Area School District are all on the computers doing their homework while you're just waiting, it really does go to show you the barriers and how the system fails. And so many youth were responding to that like, "What do I do, what --? How do I respond to this?" And it's just like email, email congress, email your local reps, make sure people know and are on top of what's happening in your school. LB: Right, right, right. Register to vote because some of them will be old enough too, so, you know? CCW: Mm-hmm. Our kids right now are aging out -- not aging out, but they're coming out of that phase where they're in the drop-in center all the time. So the kids that are in the drop-in center all the time between the ages of like 14 to 17. And then once they graduate high school, they're really focused on their life and themselves and getting things together. So a lot of times, they're not spending a lot of time there. So we have a lot of older youth there, so I'm always encouraging them to vote and be a part of and know your local government because that is where you have a lot of power and say in what happens here. LB: Whenever I used to talk to running a voter's -- an LGBT voter's organization -- it's called [PAL?], and we did that for many, many years -- one of the things we talk to people about is being a super voter. And a super voter is a person who votes in every election in the primary for four years in a row. And whether or not you vote is a matter of public record. So any person can get a list that shows whether or not you voted this in the primary and then that stuff, in the main election every year for years and years. And when you write a letter or you write an email or you write a card to your state representative, they look up to see whether you vote. That's why they pay more attention to old people than they do to young people because older people vote -- are more likely to vote. So when they look at your super voter status or they'll look to see and if you're a super voter, they'll listen to you. And if you're not a voter, you're not even registered, they figure, oh, you're not going to vote for me anyway, who cares? And they really do that, and it's a shame, but it's true. And that's the whole thing about the voice of voting because in the Obama elections, youth, college students and 18-year-olds put him in office. That's the swing vote. That is the swing vote. And during the Obama election, Adrian organized -- sent hundreds of kids to go and vote at the voter's places. And he was there at Muhlenberg College, and after he left, they stopped doing that. So like hundreds and hundreds of people were voting and then all of a sudden, they weren't. And one of the things about us being in Pennsylvania is it's a swing state. It really matters in Pennsylvania as opposed to like -- New York is always pretty liberal and New Jersey is pretty liberal, and people tend not to. It's not so close, but it's very close here. So that's great that they're doing that, good for them. Have you been talking to any of the youth and also for yourself stuff about Dr. Rachel Levine being our secretary of health, and she's the one that's been there in the health. And now what do you -- have you had a chance to see her and talk to youth about her? CCW: Yeah. A lot of youths are very upset with the way she's treated. I think that that for our trans youth, like that has been the most difficult part of all of this is... Before the Black Lives Matter movement was like -- had this visceral showing up, we were really trying to manage conversations around transphobia. And every time because we're seeing Rachel Levine, at one point we were seeing her almost every single day, which is beautiful. With style and grace, style and grace, she would like -- was amazing onstage and was amazing with giving us the information we needed, was very clear and concise, and was about to give us information that wasn't too doctor-y, too wordy, or too -- or filled with things that didn't matter to us, right? LB: Yeah. CCW: And it's like even through that, even through all of that beauty and poise and intelligence, it's like people were still just questioning her gender consistently. And I think for our clients, it was more so like, "Well, can that -- will that happen to me if I decide to do something like that? Am I possible?" Those are conversations, and we really worked with her and [Goodwin?]. We had a group, a trans health group that was really powerful, and we talked a lot about -- they talked a lot about passing and things like that. And how that is maybe important for your transition but also it's not important for the social world. Like you don't need to set up for hyper masculine or hyper feminine identities or these belief systems or these systems, like you don't need to do that, right? And so, I don't know. Some interesting conversations happened, and sometimes it would happen sporadically with our young people, so... LB: It's really true that sometimes in circumstances like that, for trans people who are transitioning and they have a certain idea of what that means, it can become hyper binary that they... You know I can't ride a motorcycle because it won't be feminine enough, and it's really limited I think for a lot of people. Yeah, Rachel Levine is amazing, and one of the great things about her is she has an extraordinarily thick skin. She'll actually say I don't care what people say to me. It's pretty brave. I don't think everybody should feel that they have to be that way, but she's the secretary of health and so, you know? CCW: Yeah. LB: She -- CCW: And then on top of that, you're also giving COVID-19 health regulations that people are uncomfortable with managing. And she's giving news that is not the greatest on top of being a fierce trans leader. So it's like -- you know what I mean? Already she was going to get pushback, you know? LB: Mm-hmm. CCW: So yeah. LB: It's tough when you're telling people things they don't want to hear, but that's the thing. CCW: And you're in... You are representing an identity that people don't want to embrace. Like I know for a while even myself when I was in chats, in conversations with my -- just like my family, we always have that conversation of "Why are you asking whether or not what her gender is? Like this is bad. It's not the conversation we need to be having. She is giving us the most important health information day to day, and we need to listen to that. That has nothing to do with anything." I think it's a culture shock for Pennsylvania because I feel like sometimes we dress up. Especially in the Lehigh Valley, we dress up like we're -- oh my God, we're so progressive, yay, but we're really not. We're really behind on a lot of things. I always say to people, I'm like, "We're always about ten -- five to ten years behind because like --" LB: Behind what? CCW: Just behind like -- LB: New York? CCW: Yeah, behind really progressive spaces, you know what I mean like New York City and... I think of Philly as like progressive, but then again, there have been -- I've had moments there where I'm like, wow, this is pretty conservative in parts of Philly. So the interesting part is that we -- in Pennsylvania, we have these really small pockets of what we would consider safe places for all people and very small pockets. And then outside of that, it's just like a ring of hate. You know what I mean? And you drive out ten minutes and then boom, confederate flag and -- LB: It's the suburbs, I know it's terrible. Terrible. You're absolutely right. CCW: It's like crazy. LB: I know. I grew up in a suburb of New York City, and it was so conservative there. It was ridiculously conservative there. My parents were the only people who were democrats, and it doesn't even mean that that's radically... They were the only democrats that we knew in the entire town in the suburb. And now, it's really one of the most progressive areas of the United States and Connecticut. So it's an interesting thing to see, I guess. But that does happen in the suburbs, and it's a shame, and we shouldn't let them get away with it. There's no question of it. I'd love to live in the city where it's not like that per se, per se. I mean there are still issues, you know. CCW: Oh, for sure, for sure, for sure. It's been very interesting. It's been very interesting to see the hate because you -- like because I work... My life is working like LGBTQ+ folks, the marginalized people, I'm always in spaces -- not always, let me take that back. I'm mostly in spaces where I'm accepted genuinely pretty much. I'll deal with microaggressions, and I'll deal with moments of racism and things like that, which I'm not negating, but for the most part, I'm not like in fear of my life, right? But -- what was I going to say. But, yeah, but like I know that, and I'm now aware that this space is not safe all the time. And when I was starting to see those messages and the way -- and the comments about Rachel Levine and her appearance and the way she was presenting or whatever the case maybe and just like the little, snarky things that they would say about her, I'm like, holy crap, we are really behind. And I would have never thought that, but then again, I have to remind myself, I'm in certain spaces because of my work life. I have a girlfriend and our family's very accepting. We have a language barrier. They speak Spanish, so there's always like a cultural catcher, but other than that, my family's very loving. There's a lot of education around nonbinary and trans folk. And I'm always doing that work with them every day, and they're always very accepting and loving. But like I forget, I forget, I really do. LB: Yeah. It's amazing though because you could be talking to people who you just think are wonderful. My dad was a major -- I mean he worked with Martin Luther King, and he edited his books, and he was really, really involved with him when he was in New York City and stuff. And he was talking about all this, and he didn't... I knew that he did these things, and he was very, very positive, and he had gay friends and he -- and stuff. And then all of a sudden, he -- I was saying... We lived in Connecticut, and I said, "So that place where we lived, where we went swimming, was that a restricted place?" and he goes, "Yeah, of course." I'm like, "Wha-- why would you do that?" And then he's telling me about this club for writers and editors and stuff that he belonged to in New York City -- it was called the Coffee House -- where people in literature were members of this club. It was only for men, and I said, "Well, yeah, because there's no women writers. I mean --" CCW: Right, because they totally don't like this. LB: "How could you do that?" He goes, "Well, they had good soup," you know? So there's that constant vigilance that you'd have. And you think that things are getting better and then all of a sudden, it rolls back. And part of it comes from -- you know? And we can't just blame this, but part of it comes from the current administration, which has sort of opened the floodgates of that, but it's not like that's the only thing. I mean it's not like it hasn't -- there isn't -- this stuff hasn't always been there. I think that's -- CCW: Right. I don't know. I feel like... And now as I'm thinking of the Black Lives Matter movement, I feel like the current administration definitely has tapped some souls and some wounds on some people and had opened up this space of like, Well now, I don't have to be silent about my bigotry, but it's expressive, it's beautiful that they don't have to be silent anymore. It's very strange to see. It's very strange to see this. It's very weird how folks who are very supportive of Trump and who are racists will open up and be like, "Oh, I feel safer now. Now that he's in office, I can say what I want to say, and all lives matter," and so then -- you know what I mean? Like, ah, I don't know. But I will say that like I... It's something I've learned in this -- in the very short amount of time that I've done a lot -- the activism that I've done. In the last five years, I've just learned that racists are in a different place, and they will come down when they are ready. They will work on their stuff when they are ready, and being triggered by them will do nothing for you. And so that's something I've really been working a lot on especially with our youth. Like you're going to see racist things. George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Nina Pop, Tony McDade, these are all racist acts of state sanctioned violence or police brutality, right? You're going to see these things. This is the unfortunate and sad world that we are in. But we have to turn our rage into something else, right, because we will -- we'll self-destruct. And that was something I took a lot -- it took me a really long time to really work on. Because I'm just like any time that I experience a microaggression or any racism, I would get so hot and so angry. And I would be in this place of just kind of thinking about it and letting it churn in my head for weeks and weeks and months on end and then I'm recognizing that like I haven't, one, done anything about it, and, two, I'm making myself sick. So it's been something that I've been really working actively on is not even responding to the racist comments on Morning Call, the racist comments that are seen on WFMC, especially when -- as we're talking about the movement and as we're processing the things that are happening around us. Because also, too, racists are going through -- and not that I'm giving them any empathy at all whatsoever, but racists are going through a huge change in their whole life. Everything is changing around them. The Redskins have dropped their name and logo, so that's -- for a lot of people who are committed to that team, that's hard, you know what I mean? And I'm, whatever, this is what you're processing. I'm processing death and safety ; you're processing a logo. That's cool. That's fine. LB: Yeah, death and safety (laughs) versus a logo. CCW: Yeah, you know what I mean? Just like -- LB: I could not -- you don't even play it, you just watch it on TV or -- yeah, death and -- CCW: Exactly, so -- LB: -- [safety, or?]. CCW: -- I don't know. It's very interesting to watch racist folks just kind of implode and like -- and white America too in general to just implode and be like, holy crap, I have to do all this work now. I have to process my identity, I have to process myself, I have to really watch my microaggressions, I have to do all this. It's been really intense for everyone. It's been a lot for everyone. I don't have much empathy for that, but I will say that like I think we have to put into consideration as we're doing this work that everyone is at a different place. And so that's really been healing for me because I've been -- I get really wrapped up in what people say. I get really wrapped up in it sometimes and so I'm like, no, no, no, no, I've got to let it go. Morning Call is going to be racist comments because it's been -- we're in Pennsylvania, so... (laughs) LB: People are commenting on that from Poland, I mean, you know, and people can comment from anywhere on that. Comments are completely not news, and they're just there to rile people up. CCW: Right. And say things that don't even like -- LB: [They're talking?]. CCW: -- just something intense like -- LB: (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) that by the time you get to the seventh comment, the person is completely off the thread of the whole story anyway. They're talking about -- you know? The thing is about putting fluoride in the water, and by the seventh comment, they're blaming Obama, and by (laughs) the tenth comment, it's about Israel. It's just -- CCW: Right. And then -- LB: -- this has nothing to do with reality. CCW: And then they toss in this six hundred dollars a week unemployment. Like -- LB: Yes, exactly. CCW: -- and how everyone was getting -- LB: -- in fact you know -- CCW: -- that was my debate the other day. (laughs) LB: Yeah. You know in the trainings I do -- there are a lot of philosophies about training where they try to do all of this empathy stuff and they talk about... And I really don't do that because of exactly what you're talking about. You can't change people from being racist by giving them an empathy training. So what I do is I tell them, "Stop saying this stuff, just cut it out." And at the end of the training and I say, "These are the words you should use because this is LGBT stuff, so these are the words you'd use. This will create a barrier, you won't be able to do your job, understand that this is what people are thinking when you say these things so say this, do this, don't say that love the sinner and hate the sin." And then we get to the end of the thing, and I say, "And don't think is way too much for you to learn." Because that's always what they say, "Oh, it's so much." I say like, "Come on, you went to college, this took an hour. You can learn this stuff. It's not that hard. For heaven's sakes, you take trainings all the time. And it's less than programming your phone. So just remember these words and --" CCW: Yes. LB: "-- stop just thinking that it's hard to do this because it's change." And I think that's a very good point that you're making and it's a... And it does drive you crazy, and you have to stop ha-- I don't have any empathy for racists even though when people would say things like, "Well, you know it's hard and they..." I can't, I can't and maybe it's because I'm older but I just -- like there is just... There's a very important saying that hit me very hard years ago and it was you cannot make compromises with people who don't think that everybody should -- that minority people and disenfranchised people should have equal rights because they would deny us oxygen if they could. So ask -- expect every equality, expect total equity because if you say, "Well, we'll take this half nod from you," they don't even want to give us oxygen, come on, you know? They be -- yeah. CCW: Right, okay, okay. LB: I don't think it's... When you're talking about the people in the comments section, they'll never going to be able to... They're not there to learn let's put it that way. CCW: Yeah, they're not, they're definitely not, they're definitely not. They're there to troll. It's always like an ego test. Like who's smarter in this debate, you know what I mean? And it's just so -- I don't know, anyways. But, oh, you know? And even our local news has just been so just like really messy in the way they've been reporting and journaling some of these protests and the way they've even been just journaling about COVID-19. And that's like another concern of mine. It's like we already have very scarce information because the WHO and the CDC, who most people are not believing because conspiracy theorists have taken over the world, right? (laughs) People that I thought would never fall into conspiracy theories are loving them now because we've never experienced anything like this, you know what I mean? The fact that we use quarantine in common language is mind-blowing to me, so... So we have the CDC and the WHO that are still really working aggressively and hard on trying to figure out things. And as science works, finding out the smallest thing is huge for scientists, but for us, finding out that like COVID-19 is now on surfaces is so miniscule, but it took them so much time to get to that, you know what I mean? And so many hours and thought process and chemical and whatever they needed to do to get to that hypothesis that this is what it is, to get to that answer, and to get to us. So already we're dealing with that and kind of like following science as we are going through this and then you have the Morning Call and WMFC with their very, very strange and vague things. Like COVID-19 Could Kill You would be like the headline, and everyone is like, oh my God, no, it's going to kill us. But then when you click on it, it's like could kill you if you don't wear a mask and wash your hands. (laughs) LB: Yeah. And well, the [second page?], you know and it was -- oh it was horrible. I remember -- well, I could tell you a million stories about this but -- and it's all the same gig. It's all the same thing where people are latching on to that kind of urban myth stuff and talking about that as real. And well, you know, that wearing a mask could kill you kind of thing. I was just talking to somebody and how that's just -- it's like an urban -- it's like one of those stories that, well, I have a friend whose brother's name is John, and this happened to him, you know? CCW: Mm-hmm. LB: A camp story, you know, (laughs) so anyway. So in terms of your everyday life, and there's a question on here that's sort of a list of questions. It says has it affected your life? And it's kind of ridiculous because it's affected every single minute of everybody's life even if you -- CCW: Oh, yeah. LB: -- say it hasn't, it has. Have you noticed anything that is just glaringly different for you? CCW: Oh, I feel like my sleep cycle, sleep has changed immensely. So I already was a night owl, so two o'clock was the cap. That was like I'm up too late, I'm going to go to sleep. But when COVID started and because I was working at home, and all I had to do was like wake up, put on a T-shirt, make sure -- put on my pajama pants, make sure I look somewhat decent, and I'm ready to go, I had all the time in the world. I didn't have a 30-minute commute. I like to say 30 minutes because I like to take my time driving and listening to music and stuff. But I have a 30-minute commute, and get ready in the morning will be another hour so that's an hour and a half that I've now saved. But I -- because of the anxiety of the pandemic and the anxiety of not knowing what's going to happen next, and as the pandemic went through and then now we're in this civil unrest -- at the end of May we're in the civil unrest, my sleep schedule is like whatever, you know what I mean? I'll wake up in six o'clock in the morning and then I'll start. I'll answer some emails, I'll casually do some filing, organize some things, get myself kind of prepared for the day and then I'll go back to sleep and then I'll wake up again. My sleep has been so off because we're -- I'm just so comfortable with being at home, and I get so stir-crazy. So that was one of the biggest changes. Now, my partner is an essential worker. Well, I don't even like using that term, but she has to go outside to work. And for her, she's -- everything is the same. If you were to ask her this question, she'd be like, "I don't think my life has changed much, I just miss my family" because she has older parents. Her mom is like forty-eight and her dad sixty-three. Well, her mom is not older ; it's her dad that's older. So they couldn't see each other, and he's already had cancer in his health history, and he has diabetes. So things are really like we cannot see them at all whatsoever. That's just a no go. We can't even take the risk, you know what I mean? So for her, that's the only thing that she would say, but other than that, all parts of her life is kind of like the same, you know? LB: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. CCW: But for me, it's just the sleep, and my schedule was so off. And even going to the grocery store was just like, it's hell on earth, you know what I mean -- LB: Has it -- CCW: -- because it's like -- LB: Have you been limiting that, or what's that like for you? Explain because you -- CCW: So -- LB: -- people are going to be watching this thirty years from now, so talk about what it's like to go to the grocery store. CCW: Well, grocery store shopping... So at first in start of the pandemic, I limited. As we started to get deeper into it, I realized that going shopping for two weeks of food wasn't realistic anymore. Because like I was either -- because I always shop a lot of fresh food or -- and then I'll get a bunch of frozen stuff. But I was just like this isn't working, you know? And next week, I don't really want this food, so, like I'm not interested in this meal. So I ended up shopping a little bit more. And because my partner is still going out and working and I'm at home, now I have to pack lunches and things like that. Because there was in the beginning that concern of do we eat out? Because there wasn't any regulation yet. But we were just like, you know what, let's just -- whatever. At this point, let's just try this. But even the experience at the grocery store, GIANT had and probably still has this, it's a voiceover and it's like, "Stay six feet away from everyone, and" blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, Is this like Black Mirror or --? Yeah, I don't know if you've ever seen that show before, but it felt so surreal because everyone is in their gloves and their masks just like walking around the grocery store, wiping things down. I've seen people do crazy things in the grocery store, wearing crazy things to stay protected, which I get. LB: Yeah. Well, people are scared. So are you scared about getting it? CCW: I think my biggest fear about getting it is -- oh. I feel like my biggest fear about getting it is it's just transferring it to older people in my life like my grandmother. So my grandmother is also sixty-three. She's spry, she's doing her thing, she doesn't have any serious health issues, and she's very, very, very, very health conscious and very -- and eats very well and cares about her diet, cares about her, all of that stuff, so... But that's my biggest fear with getting it. As for me getting it, I'm a young, healthy person, and from the statistics, young and healthy people usually live and survive and sometimes become asymptomatic. So that's something I was holding on to for a while. Because even when I was working with youth out on the ground, I had a scare where I was like, oh, snap, this youth is getting tested. So I had to quarantine until her results came in and that was really terrifying. But it was mostly terrifying because of the way like work set it up. They're like, "You can't do anything, none of this, no, no, no, no, no." And I'm just like, "Oh, okay," and it made COVID-19 really real for me. (laughs) LB: Yeah. Do you know anybody who's had it? CCW: Yes, I did, I did. Not any of like my close immediate friends, but a client's mother had it. So that for that client -- and that was another moment during this pandemic that was interesting was a lot of our clients because they're low-income folk, a lot of them who are... And especially if they're like fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, they're the caregivers in their home. So teaching a young person how to be a caregiver for a disease that we don't understand or a virus we don't understand was one of the -- one of my most challenging moments with this young person. Because it really was like -- you have books on how to take care of your younger siblings, you have all this education. But it's like how do you take care of your mother who's also -- has asthma, has COVID-19, and how do you, one, have her quarantine in your home when you have one bathroom? So it was like creating a whole new plan with this young person on how to keep the house healthy while also having them literally run the household. For that young person, it was so scary, it was so frightening, you know? It's like, holy crap, now I have to do all these things that I didn't think I had to do in these two weeks. Before I was doing it, but now, it's a little different because mom is like completely out of the picture, you know, what I mean because she has to self-quarantine, so -- yeah. LB: And then that whole thing of when people get super sick and they have to go in the hospital, and we can't see them, and you don't know what's going on and... Yeah. CCW: That too was like one of my -- if -- concerns about COVID too is like if my mom were to get sick, you know what I mean. My mom is -- I think she's turning fifty this year, so she'll be forty-nine. Well, she'll be forty-nine -- she'll be fifty ; she's forty-nine. If she got sick and I couldn't see her, I would be a mess. I would be a mess, and I would be a mess, I would be very upset and devastated especially if like she died and she died without even me knowing. Because I think like a lot of -- a lot about COVID-19 that has been very complex and difficult is the messaging between the providers and the patient's families. Because they're so focused on keeping themselves safe, keeping the hospital safe, keeping the people that are in the hospital safe, keeping all the patients safe, separating the non-COVID patients from the COVID patients. So this whole like I'm going to get back to this family about a death that just happened is maybe happening a little bit later in the day, you know what I mean? Even though it's a huge deal for the family, but for them, their list of worries is so large. You were constantly seeing that in the news too of like... And again, more conspiracy theory of these folks just struggling to get information to people but also struggling to take care of their patients because they're -- it was just so much. It's so much. And even now, one of my staff members was like, "I'm very afraid," and I was like, "What are you afraid of?" And I get what she's afraid of, but she's just like. "I'm afraid of the uptick and what is going to happen with the hospitals again because the hospitals were packed for so long." It's just such a general fear of like there'll not be enough of anything, so... LB: Well, what's the biggest frustration you're having from all of this stuff? I mean we're talking about a variety of things but... CCW: I think my biggest frustration is us in civil unrest during a pandemic. I think that is the hardest part of all of this is that. It's, oh, like you would think that with the... Because what I've noticed, at least, in my social circles is like everyone who is on unemployment, they're getting the extra six hundred dollars a week, so they're now making money. And I'm a professional, and I'm in a management position, you know what I mean, so you would think I get the big bucks at this point, but no, definitely not. But people are making more money than me, right? So there is this sense of happiness amongst the people of my life, you know what I mean, especially since like we -- like my families have been very poor and low income. So I've noticed that there have been a lot of folks who are low income just experience just kind of some happier moments, you know what I mean? Because there's more money and there's more funds and there's more things available. Who was that going on with this? What was the question again for -- LB: Oh, it's about the frustrations that you're having. You were talking of the money and stuff. CCW: Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So... Jesus, I forgot what I was going to say. Yes, so everyone's pretty content but at the same time, it's like -- LB: Well, you were -- CCW: -- you -- LB: -- talking about civil unrest. You were talking about -- CCW: Yes, yes, okay, there we go, sorry. But at the same time, you would think that like police brutality wasn't going to be happening during this time. You would think like the amount of Black transwomen who have died, six transwomen died in a week, that is absolutely ridiculous, you know what I mean? There has been just so much police brutality, trans violence, racism, systematic racism, and it's like it doesn't stop. And so I think that's the most frustrating because I'm watching my friends and then family finally get like a leg up. They get this extra money, people are saving, they've got the extra 1200. Some people kind of financially did pretty well during this whole thing and then it's like this violence continues on. But racism is going to continue, and that system is going to continue on, and it's like, damn, when are we going to catch a break, so... And I would get mostly frustrated with people pushing back about the protests and pushing back about why are people outside, and I get it, I get it. We're in a pandemic, but people need to move, people need to do this work. I've been really proud of a lot of activists who have been finding ways to get folks who cannot be out involved, and that has been really good, but it's -- you know. I think that's my biggest frustration is the civil unrest and how we're still dealing with these big crises on such a larger level? Because Tony McDade, Nina Pop, Breonna Taylor, and George Floyd, they happened almost in a couple of months, right? It's like the same time frame, so it's like, holy crap, that is insane. What is happening here? Yeah, that's my biggest frustration. LB: You know what I think about that though as? I think about that kind of horrible racist crime has been going on with that ferocity all along but that now, people are sa-- First of all, they have -- always have their cameras with them with their video, and so there's been so much more live video footage of this happening so that other people can't say, "Well, that's just not happening, it didn't really happen that way, these people shouldn't have been -- they caused what happened to them." And you say, "Look at this, that's not what happened, look, look at this." And the other thing is that I think people are fed up with it and so when it happens, they're making a public issue about it, which I don't think has happened as much in the last 20 years as it's doing now. And in part it is because people are... I mean people are speaking up about it more, which I think is very, very positive to me I mean for white people who are clueless and I have people... I know plenty of white people who are clueless and certainly some people in my family and other parts of my family who will just try to look for some kind of excuse for this kind of stuff, and they're seeing these videos, and they're saying -- I'm saying, "You can't look at this and say --" this is what happened in Allentown. "You cannot look at this and say this was all right. You have to stretch beyond any kind of credibility to say that this nine-minute video shows appropriate action by the police. It doesn't ; it just doesn't. And if you're saying that, you're lying because it just doesn't say that." I watched that video six times, and I wrote down every single thing that happened in it. And I saw -- I -- the police said that they had -- that the man had fallen down and they fell down with him. When you watch the video, you can see the police kicked his feet out from under him and pushed him to the ground. They lied in their public -- CCW: Right. LB: And I have to say that -- CCW: Even like just the comments on the spitting, he was vomiting, so of course, he's going to spit out whatever is in his mouth or maybe he's continuing to vomit, but it was very clear and apparent that he was vomiting. So it's like -- LB: He was sick. CCW: He was sick. LB: He's a sick guy, and he's praying. You know every -- there's just -- there's no excuse for this. And what's going to happen because I've seen this happen for 30 years is that the police, they're always going to excuse themselves. They're going to say their -- "Well, but yeah, but this has been --" and they're going to say that. And I think that it's going to be... Unless city council people band together and stand up against this, it's going to be awfully hard to get the police. The police will never admit they're at fault in my -- they just never will do that but -- so things have to change. I mean divestiture is really significant because they're just never going to admit the way the system is set up now, and it doesn't even matter who the police officers are. They're always -- CCW: Exactly. Because policing is a very toxic culture, you know what I mean? LB: Yes. CCW: And after a while, once you -- because even -- and even in the line of social work, I've seen some things, I've heard some awful, horrendous, terrible stories. And I've only been doing -- I've been doing volunteer work for about seven years but -- and always in the community for a really long time, but this work with Project SILK has only been for three years. And in these three years, I have heard, seen, some crazy stuff, and it really doesn't change the way you see people. But once I get to that point where I'm like -- I'm starting to see -- feel myself fall back into like bigotry or fall back into like a space of hatred, I'm like, I need to train, I need to train, I need to read, I need to educate myself. I need to get back into this place because -- and I need to like have healthy, healthy conversations with a therapist. I need to do self-care. Because that's when I know that, one, I'm tried, and it's -- I'm exhausted, right? And that's what I think is happening with a lot of police officers is that their exposure to violence is insane, it's insane, you know? In my place as a social worker, my exposure to violence is pretty intense, but I'm getting folks either prior to events or after something very terrible has happened. Because I also do like sex trafficking work with the shelter as well, and I do trainings on that with our agency. And some of the stories I've heard from these young folks is devastating stuff. But again, I'm only hearing it. Just imagine being the police officer seeing and reacting and doing the -- that physical brunt work in order to take care of a person. And they're constantly being shown this stuff and so their place of bigotry and hatred if it already isn't there. Because a lot of police officers go into this work either thinking I'm going to do the best, I'm going to be a public server, I'm going to do a great job. Some police officers, and it's very, very rare but some do go into this work being like, I'm racist and I want to continue to raise Havoc in my area. I have upset, like mental health issues, whatever the case maybe, I want to be a terror right? LB: Right. CCW: But you have these folks who go in here, and they're like, I'm going to do a great job. And they go in there and then their exposure to violence heightens and heightens and heightens and heightens, and nobody's managing it. No one is managing the sickness and the monster that is being created. Like, no one is managing that. So yes, so then you -- leading up to this moment of a man who when you watch the video, he is just sick. And there's no way that he -- his resistance is because he didn't need to be restrained. You can listen to like people -- there are -- people will do terrible things, right? We totally understand that. That was just a human condition, a human experience. But people for the most part, you can feel when they're genuine and they're genuinely hurt when you are healthy, when you are okay. And then for that police officer, he was not okay. Something else happened prior from that nine minutes that pissed him off and got him upset, something at home, something in the work field, the fact that he's not processing the trauma that he's constantly seeing on a daily basis. And so in that moment he was fed up. The police officer was fed up, so he responded in the way he did. If you're not thinking about holistic care for these people who are constantly exposed to trauma, then you're not doing -- you're not -- you're doing such a disservice. You're doing such a disservice to people. LB: Well, it's certainly true that -- I mean I think that it -- for police officers in Allentown, most of them do not live in the city. They believe that they -- their experience is that every single person they come in contact with is either a person who has done something bad, they believe that, or because it so frequently is, or a victim of somebody who has done something bad. That there is no in between. There's no activists and people planting gardens and folks that are playing with their kids, and there's just nobody that isn't a perpetrator for them because everybody they deal with is a perpetrator. And that's one of the problems with the way police are that they -- that they're totally reactive. So they only are there to react to some emergency situation, which is often a very negative thing. And they never have experiences working with people in the community to -- let's build a, I don't know, a garden shelter in the park. They never do that. They never say, "Well, we're here today to be at this big barbecue for the community, to just hang out with you to see what you think is going on in the community." We never do that. And so as a consequence, their constant experiences with people who they either think may have done something bad or who have really done something bad. And then they have this terrible, terrible attitude about the city because they never see anything positive in the city. They just never see anything positive any place in the whole -- anywhere at Lehigh Valley. A lot of them live way up in the Poconos, and they're afraid, they're afraid to live in the city. I've actually had them say, "I'm afraid to live in the city because my family would be terrorized," and there's actually no statistical evidence to that at all. I mean there's lots of older police officers that have lived in the city for years and years and years, and they manage softball teams for kids and they do all sorts of stuff and they... I know some of these guys. And they don't think everything is bad because they live here, and they know that there is an organization like Project SILK that's having youth programs in the park, hanging out. They're just doing it, so... But they're conditioned to be constantly suspicious of everything because they never have an experience that is anything other -- in fact, they never get out of their cars or off their bicycles. Even the bicycle cops don't get off their bicycles. CCW: Their bicycles, yeah, they do not. LB: Have you ever seen --? CCW: They do not. LB: You have never seen one of those cops off of his bicycle. It's like this thing that he's afraid to have an interaction with a person, so he's got that bike. It's like the car, he never gets out of the car, or if they do, they just stand there. Even the way those guys were standing there watching the guy who was sick so far away, they just watched him and watched him and watched him. It's an interesting thing. CCW: Yeah. And again, it just goes back to what you were saying too that like they're set up to react to violence, and that's it. That is something that I think that... As we are talking about defunding the police, as we're talking about abolishing the police and all of these things, that's something to also recognize is that when people fall into these systems, they are also going through immense emotional and intense changes. And not giving them any empathy for the shit that they've done. But this is -- you create monsters. You create a team of folks who are in this belief pattern with a certain set of skills, you know what I mean, and there's no continuous training. Something that I've been working on in our space, our Project SILK because we've had moments and struggled with all types of stuff with race and things like that. And I say all the time like, "This is stuff that you have to do consistently." I'm consistently training. And some people will be like, "Oh my God, oh, you're so smart, you're so -- look, oh yeah, you're on to -- you get it." But I'm like, "No, I don't. I also need to continue doing work like I'm still..." There has been programmed -- conscious and unconscious programming of sexism, homophobia, transphobia. All of these things have been into my body, right, so I need to find ways to make sure that they never come out and they are completely -- not never come out but they're gone, you know? LB: Right. CCW: It's continuous. So police officers should be going to a racial equity training yearly. They should be attending these things. These things are important and vital for the education of self. And I think everyone should consider those things. I read up, and I read up and I'm constantly paying attention to human rights campaign, them, any LGBTQ+ resource area. I'll have scheduled time to be like, all right, I need to make sure I'm caught up with language of the times. I'll talk to my youth, "Are there new -- are there anything new that I should know? Is there information I should know? Is there culture pieces that I should know, so I am aware and I am not hurting you?" If you are a public servant or you are a person that's working with social services, you need to do that work consistently. LB: Right, right, right. That's really true. Well, we're just about to the end of this. So imagine that somebody is looking back at this from 30 years hence, and it could be you because you'll still be around. I won't be but you will be. So you looking back, people are looking back at this way in the future, and you're going to give them a message about what's going on now, maybe a message of hope and a message of awareness that you could pass on to them, what would you say? What's sort of a thing that you would say about that? CCW: Oh, I don't know. I feel like I've just been -- LB: I think you've been -- CCW: (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) continue to educate yourself. I feel like -- LB: What you just said was very significant because when you're talking about -- you can't just say, okay, I know everything now, you know? CCW: Yeah. LB: You can't take a two-hour training and think okay, now, I'm -- CCW: Exactly. That's something that I've been really pushing with my supervisor is that our staff needs consistent, constant workshop, training, workshop, training. Training is a little bit more official because they're learning a new skill. Workshop is where you practice, have some conversation, it's a little bit more lighter, right? I guess I would just tell people who are peering into the future is I hope people are still reading. I hope people are still educating themselves and really spending that time. Because ego trips are serious, and I feel like a lot of times when you think you are so woke and so educated, you tend to completely breeze by education. You completely breeze by things that you should know, and you become ignorant very quickly. So I'm always ready and always open, and I hope the same for people in the future too. LB: Oh, that's a great thing to say. Thank you so much for saying that and for doing this interview. And I'm so glad that we got a chance to talk, and it's been really helpful. And I hope you stay safe and your partner stays safe who has to be an essential worker, which I do understand that that term is -- actually means for many people, you have to work, but we don't have to pay you a lot of money. And you don't -- CCW: Mm-hmm, yeah. LB: -- get a choice as to not wanting to work. I've talked to several people that have had that situation where it's, "I'm so essential, why am I not getting paid for --" CCW: Right, okay. LB: -- "why am I not being taken care of?" You know that is important. I hope that all of your family is safe and stuff like that. I'm glad to hear that there's going to be some counseling components for Project SILK, and how is that going to work? I need to know about that because I get loads and loads of [info, whine?] calls and often calls from people who are counselors that are trying to place youth, which I will immediately tell them about Project SILK. So how is that going to work, that counseling component? CCW: There's going to be a few things that we're going to work out. The therapist is like now she is becoming licensed, which I'm like, yay, proud for her. She just finished her licensure. Her first test -- I think she has a second test to take for some other level of licensing, but... So the counseling will work where it would be like short-term counseling. So we would say that the client would be able to see the -- I'm sorry. The client will be able to see the therapist for six to eight weeks and then we will review and see if -- that there needs to be any more further like treatment. And a lot of the focus would just be on the gender and sexuality stuff. She has a ton of training on LGBTQ+, Black and brown youth and how those intersections affect health. She is amazing, and she's also getting a certification in geek therapy, which is like video game therapy. So that's really, really, really cool. So that's where we're at now. We're going to kind of keeping it short term just to get her flexible. She is only -- just to get her in a good place. She is only part time, so her caseload is probably going to be like maybe 15 to 20 youth, kind of the starts -- LB: Great, wonderful, that's great. So -- CCW: Yeah, and we're really excited to bring that service. It's something that we had in the beginning and then our therapist in the beginning just needed a lot of work. And we needed to find someone that was going to work with the populations and not work with them. Because that's what was happening a lot, like just pushing away certain folk and I'm just like, no, these are priority populations, what are you doing? You know what I mean -- LB: [You're like -- yeah?]. CCW: You can't just turn people away because you're uncomfortable, then you need to quit your job. LB: That's really true. When HAVEN first started over at -- in Bethlehem, they kept talking about -- the people at the church kept talking about it -- and we were involved at the beginning of it, kept talking about how they wanted to train people to... Because the youth were at risk and they kept talking about the high level of or the high instance of suicide and the high instance of self-harm. But then they would get these really problem kids, young people who would -- problem youth who would come to the thing. And they'd say, "Well, this person is too much of a problem, we can't have him around here." (laughs) Some of the people that I was working with said, "Okay, wait a minute, these are the kids that are the highest risk. You can't tell them that they're the ones that can't come here." CCW: Exactly. LB: "Of course they're hard. That's the reason that they have to be supported. They're the hardest ones. They're the most at risk. If this was an easy circumstance for these young people and their life was an easy thing and easy for them to interact with --" (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) CCW: Our services would be nonexistent. LB: Right, right. Sure, everybody likes the A+, poindexter-y kid who is going to say -- do everything you say but when you have somebody who -- and they had kids who were really problems, and they said they can't come anymore. We actually worked with them and said, "You cannot do that. If you're saying that they can't be with the youth, then you have to get another two people who are facilitators to work with them one on one if they were too dangerous or whatever to be around the youth. But you can't turn them away. That's --" CCW: Yeah, you got -- LB: -- (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) CCW: -- to find a way to make it work. So that's why having this therapy of -- a therapy position is really going to be beautiful to our services. And then we're adding on two peer navigators. One is a part of the ballroom scene, and the other one has a really, really great connection with the community, so we're really excited to have them. And then we're going to be adding on another case manager, so it's going to be a crazy -- LB: That's terrific. CCW: -- set. (laughs) LB: That's great. CCW: I'm really happy that our services are expanding because they're just -- they're so needed. They're so needed. LB: Yeah. I'm not very hip to this but -- I mean that's probably an old-fashioned thing to say, but when you say part of the ballroom scene, what did you mean by that? CCW: Oh, so they're a part of the... I'm trying to figure out how to explain this, so... Like Paris is Burning. LB: Oh, oh, okay, okay. Yes, like that kind of -- CCW: That culture is still continuing on and so they're -- they have -- they're a part of the house and they go to balls and they compete and they are professional voguers. So that was just such a unique piece to our team, and we're really excited, so... LB: Cool, all right, I can see that, yeah, good. That sounds exciting. I think that's an excellent thing. Well, good. Well, thank you again so much, and I really, really appreciate it, and it's been great to talk to you. And I hope you have a great -- a nice rest of the evening and get a little chance to regulate your sleep patterns. CCW: Yeah. I need to work on that, so... (laughs) LB: (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) CCW: I hope you and your wife are doing well and your family is doing well during this pandemic. LB: Uh-huh, we're great, we're great. Well, thanks a lot. CCW: Thank you. LB: Bye-bye. CCW: Bye. END OF AUDIO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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01:24:56
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Chloe Cole-Wilson, July 14, 2020
Description
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Chloe Coles-Wilson describes how the LGBTQIA+ youth coped with COVID-19, by talking about her experiences with activism. She talks about her experience working for Project SILK in the Lehigh Valley, and how her experience there has shaped her. She also addresses the racial inequalities going on in the US, and offers her opinion to the interviewer. Ultimately, she talks about her activism and how COVID-19 has affected the community.
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PH40_24
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COVID-19
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2020-07-14
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
An account of the resource
In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Kristen Leipert
Interviewee
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Christina Peyroux
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_33.xml
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5.4 Unknown Date Christina Peyroux, July 29, 2020 PH40_33 00:44:33 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Christina Peyroux Kristen Leipert video/mpeg PeyrouxChristina_20200729_video.mp4 1.0:|27(2)|58(8)|81(11)|102(14)|127(13)|156(6)|177(4)|194(4)|217(8)|242(9)|261(5)|284(12)|309(2)|330(14)|351(5)|372(13)|397(9)|418(7)|437(8)|458(12)|481(7)|502(14)|519(16)|540(10)|561(9)|584(12)|607(7)|626(12)|651(5)|672(13)|693(11)|716(15)|739(13)|762(7)|783(15)|804(5)|823(4)|840(4)|861(12)|876(4)|893(12)|916(7)|929(15)|948(7)|959(5) 0 https://youtu.be/IrX6vj-n6qE YouTube video 0 Interview Introduction KRISTEN LEIPERT: My name is Kristen Leipert and I’m here with Christina Peyroux to talk about her experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of the Covid-19 pandemic as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive. Our project has funding from the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium. We are meeting on Zoom on July 29, 2020. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start can you please state your full name and spell it for me?
 ; 
 ; CHRISTINA PEYROUX: Yes, my name is Christina Peyroux, C-H-R-I-S-T-I-N-A Peyroux P as in Paul, E-Y-R-O-U-X as in x-ray.
 ; 0 139 How the pandemic has affected home life and working in the Lehigh Valley Health Network KL: This is a really general starting question and you can take it wherever. How has the Covid-19 pandemic affected your life and this could be your work life, personal life, social life, sex life, anything.
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 ; CP: First off, I graduated college in Washington, D.C. and then I moved back to Pennsylvania to live with my grandmother. I am a registered nurse, so I started nursing this year, she finished nursing this year. She retired. 0 291 Starting nursing job before Covid-19 pandemic KL: So you graduated this year?
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 ; CP: May 2019.
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 ; KL: Were you still in school when this started and then got the job or was it kind -- I don’t know how that works because now I’m fascinated, now it’s like I’m just asking you this for me.
 ; 
 ; CP: That’s fine, absolutely, my hospital does this program for nursing students where you can be something called a technical partner, sometimes known as nurse aides, throughout nursing school so that you maintain a job and then you can be an internal hire. So I already had the job upon graduating[...] 0 505 Experience living with grandmother KL: Yeah, so you’ve been protecting your grandmother but has she also been -- I mean she’s obviously a good person that you can bounce your whole day off of and I bet she is just I was going to say loving everything you have to say to her, but I don’t know if that’s the right word.
 ; 
 ; CP: Yeah because, it’s funny because, you know, we’re two generations apart and in the nursing or any medical field that’s huge I mean every five years they come out with new studies let alone sixty years. 0 589 Socializing during the pandemic KL: I was going to say because you’re working, and you know so like your social life are you like maintaining friendships, I don’t know, video friending?
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 ; CP: When you’re in nursing school you don’t really have a social life. The on-running joke is like choose three: eating, sleeping, social life, and good grades. You can’t have it all. So usually, nine times out of ten your social life is what is nonexistent and it’s really unfortunate because when I was in college, you know it’s, you’re focused. 0 757 Exercising during the pandemic/taking care of self during the pandemic KL: I had a question and now I don’t remember it. Oh so you’re active in sports are you trying to get outside now, do you -- I know those are like the mental things I think that during this time are probably like super helpful.
 ; 
 ; CP: Yes, I actually for the first time since I was like four years old decided to not be on a team sport after college, I am working out like by myself. 0 867 Spending time with girlfriend during pandemic CP: And I’ve also been able to spend more time than I thought with my girlfriend. She actually moved to Virginia after college but then Covid hit and her job became remote, so she actually moved back to PA to live with her parents which is a like an hour or so from me. So on times when I have like a few days off or long weekends, I go there or she comes here. 0 929 Positive results of the pandemic KL: What other positive things have come out of it, do you have any like fun hobbies or no you’re just?
 ; 
 ; CP: Positive: my grandmother has a pretty large property and she has a large house for being here by herself for so long. She bought a house that would be able to comfortably live her, her son’s family and my mother’s family. So she has enough room for eight people in this house. 0 1063 Wondering about future work/staffing prospects CP: I wonder how life is going to be like in the future after all this kind of calms down? I think it’s made a lot of business owners and a lot of people realize what jobs aren’t really needed per se. And I don’t want to say needed for lack of a better term, but there are a lot of people that I feel like their staffing is going to drop, because they realize that they can function without it. 0 1131 Working at full functioning capacity during the pandemic at Lehigh Valley Hospital-Cedar Crest branch KL: So now has your unit gone back?
 ; 
 ; CP: Yes, we have. We are at full functioning capacity. I mean think about it, people who were intending to come into the hospital for all these things got delayed, now everybody’s coming in all of a sudden and everybody’s coming in worse because everybody delayed it. 0 1240 Taking care of mental health during the pandemic KL: Well some of our categories are about social life and personal pursuits which gardening is now your new. And then mental and physical health.
 ; 
 ; CP: Yes, on that note my therapist was like, who I’ve been seeing for years, is like maybe you should start journaling, and I’m really not the kind of person that opens up a journal at the end of the day and says “today I did this,” I’m just not that kind of person. 0 1351 Taking precautions because of Covid/Being mindful of potentially effecting the health of others CP: I’ve also had to invest in other gear, like other uniforms, because they’re getting used so heavily. I’ve bought other like scrub caps, yeah, I’ve gone through a lot of stuff. And my floor, they try to keep completely free of anyone who has the virus. They send people to my floor who are immunocompromised, so my floor is like relatively safe unless I get floated somewhere else. So I bring everything home, we have a shower on the first floor, I hop right in the shower, I throw my uniform right in the washer and she stays upstairs the entire time. 0 1643 Wearing a mask during the pandemic CP: Someone else might literally die from it, so people come up to me because they see me and like, they know I’m a nurse, and they’re like “so what about these masks, do you believe they work, blah blah blah”, and I tell them straight up front I’m like “I’m wearing my mask for your benefit. I’m wearing my mask, not because I think I’m going to get sick, and I’m afraid of me getting sick, but because if I have it or I get it and I pass it to you, you might die”. 0 1884 Changed work routines at Lehigh Valley Hospital-Cedar Crest branch during the pandemic KL: Now I’m totally asking you, are you tired talking about this yet. Do they have Covid patients? I mean how is that for you every day go into work, I mean everything’s isolated, but do you get daily briefings of what’s going on?
 ; 
 ; CP: So when Covid originally started and all the procedural units that were like ours, but couldn’t be customized into a medical surgical, like a generalized floor, a lot of their staff was either furloughed or floated, and they had staff posted at every entrance to the hospital scanning temperatures for every staff member and every visitor. 0 1971 How working during the pandemic has affected nursing career moving forward/may affect the nursing career in general CP: There are people in the nursing profession for like I said 60 years and they have never experienced anything like this. And I was right on the end, the tail end of normalcy, so I’ve seen both worlds. And like I said, there are nurses who have been in this profession for years and they’re like we’re all on the same level - now there’s no seniority with this. One has no practice with all of this, it’s just everybody’s trying to help each other survive. 
 ; 0 2113 Comparisons between the AIDS epidemic and Covid-19 pandemic KL: But I mean you know listening to some people saying how you know people didn’t want to take care of people that had AIDS in the beginning, you know like all this stuff and having to suit up when going into their brother in a hospital room and like the nurses not wanting to take care of them so the family had to do it, you know, and it’s interesting to see that comparison or just yeah all of this you know.
 ; 
 ; CP: Yes, and you make a valid point. Like, when we learned about the AIDS crisis, that happened and the nursing care that was provided, or even in some cases not provided, it’s, I’d like to think, very different from how we’re handling it today -for the better. 0 2211 Finding humor when nursing KL: What a sad conversation, anything fun you want to talk about?
 ; 
 ; CP: I mean I don’t know. It is what it is, this is my life now. That’s another thing I think nursing really, like a lot of the people if you ever have nursing friends or colleagues that were nurses, their view of life and their sense of humor are vastly different from common Joe, just because, I mean at the end of the day or night when we give a report and we’re like all of our patients are alive, like that’s great! 0 2360 Communicating with LGBTQ community members digitally CP: I think that during Covid, a lot of people in the LGBTQ community have found each other over long distances, because they’ve been forced to, because you weren’t able to see your normal web of people in person. You were forced to use a lot more social media or long distance things which almost eliminated the distance. 0 2501 Looking forward to going to LGBTQ businesses/LGBTQ community events after the pandemic CP: I am looking forward to going to more events with people, like from the community. Like I miss, like D.C., there’s so many LGBTQ friendly bars or dance floors, clubs, anything, you name it. I miss that and I do go to like Pride whenever it’s available but it’s nice that we have been able to like enjoy ourselves and have pride in ourselves without the big fanfare and the big parade. 0 MovingImage Christina Peyroux discusses her experiences during the COVID-19 pandemic including how it has effected her job in nursing and living with her grandmother, a retired nurse. Christina Peyroux 2020-07-29 KRISTEN LEIPERT: My name is Kristen Leipert and I'm here with Christina Peyroux to talk about her experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of the Covid-19 pandemic as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive. Our project has funding from the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium. We are meeting on Zoom on July 29, 2020. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start can you please state your full name and spell it for me? CHRISTINA PEYROUX: Yes, my name is Christina Peyroux, C-H-R-I-S-T-I-N-A Peyroux P as in Paul, E-Y-R-O-U-X as in x-ray. KL: Will you share your birthdate? CP: Yes, 11/22/1996. KL: This is the consent portion. Do you consent to this interview today? CP: I do consent. KL: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable format? CP: Yes. KL: Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats including films, articles, websites, presentations, and other formats? CP: Yes. KL: Do you understand that you'll have thirty days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview, identify any parts you would like to delete and/or withdraw your interview for this project? CP: I understand that. KL: Okay and this project has been approved by Muhlenberg College's Institutional Review Board and you may contact Dr. Erika Iyengar with any questions and if you want her email address I'm happy to give it to you. CP: Okay. KL: All right, so you are where are you currently located, your zip code? CP: Let me think, 18104. KL: This is a really general starting question and you can take it wherever. How has the Covid-19 pandemic affected your life and this could be your work life, personal life, social life, sex life, anything. CP: First off, I graduated college in Washington, D.C. and then I moved back to Pennsylvania to live with my grandmother. I am a registered nurse, so I started nursing this year, she also finished nursing. She retired, she's been a nurse for 60 years, so we kind of helped each other transition into and out of the profession. So I was born here but now I've moved back. My life has changed because my grandmother, being an eighty-two-year-old woman she's immunocompromised and I still work at the hospital. So I have to completely change my habits of what happens when I come home from work where I keep dirty clothes goes right into the washer, our water bill has gone up. Different cleaning or rather different ways of cleaning my shoes, so I've had to kind of think outside the box in order to still do my job and keep her safe as well. KL: So you work at the hospital? CP: I work at Lehigh Valley Health Network yes and obviously Covid-19 has affected my work life drastically. My unit is actually a step down cardiac unit, we handle people who are going for pacemakers and cardiac procedures of the like. And most of our people are elective surgeries, people don't usually come to the hospital and end up on our unit unless it's planned. And since Covid was like raging people weren't doing these elective surgeries, people weren't choosing to come into the hospital I mean as they shouldn't, it was good because we could keep people who were like really really sick in the ICU and other patients who really didn't need intensive care could come to our unit. So we turned into like a generalized what you would say a medical surgical unit. So I got patients that I really had no previous training on it was a great learning experience but it was also very nerve wracking because when you came into work every day you had no idea what you were going to get. KL: So you graduated this year? CP: May 20. KL: Were you still in school when this started and then got the job or was it kind -- I don't know how that works because now I'm fascinated, now it's like I'm just asking you this for me. CP: That's fine, absolutely, my hospital does this program for nursing students where you can be something called a technical partner sometimes known as nurse aides, throughout nursing school so that you maintain a job and then you can be an internal hire. So I already had the job upon graduating, I had already signed a contract, I had signed a two year bonus for ten thousand dollars all they said you just have to graduate. You've got the job all you've got to do is pass your boards which was a huge lifesaver for me because I know a large portion of my classmates while they were in senior year of nursing school studying for tests, studying for their degree were like well now I've got to find a job, it was a huge help for me. So I was already on that unit and when I had graduated May 2019 Covid obviously hadn't happened yet. When I started actually my orientation process in July 2019 we didn't, we were not affected by Covid yet, so I was completely on my own like a full functioning nurse off of orientation, had my degree when Covid happened. So they had to let us go and to be on our own and to like practice fully functioning by ourselves without someone like directly observing us when Covid started really ramping up. So it was a huge challenge I just (break in audio) people who are in school this year so drastically affected because their second semester, their clinicals were probably all cancelled. I know a lot of people couldn't get their nursing degree because the testing centers were closed so everything's been pushed back. So once again there's a nursing shortage. What's next. KL: Oh my gosh. So yeah amazing. So you've gotten to, you had like that experience of doing what you want to do let's say and then suddenly all new things to learn. That's a good start to your career. CP: Yeah, I feel like I had just kind of gotten secure like I can take care of patients now and then the rug was pulled out from under me so to speak. KL: So you have obviously still been working showering five hundred times. CP: I'm grateful, because people their life turned upside down, they don't know how they're going to pay bills. I mean I'm just out of college because I'm living with my grandmother I'm already done with my student loans, I bought my first car, huge like milestones that I would not have been able to complete had I not been living with my grandmother, had I not kept an essential job and had I not planned ahead of time and had the foresight to like really attack bills while I could. KL: Yeah, so you've been protecting your grandmother but has she also been -- I mean she's obviously a good person that you can bounce your whole day off of and I bet she is just I was going to say loving everything you have to say to her, but I don't know if that's the right word. CP: Yeah because it's funny because, you know, we're two generations apart and in the nursing or any medical field that's huge I mean every five years they come out with new studies let alone sixty years. I come home and I talk about a situation she's like, "When I was your age what we used to do." And it's just really funny to hear the differences and there are nurses on my unit that are kind of in between our stages. So I'll go to them and I'll be like do you ever remember doing this, this or this were you around during the days where on night shift you did this, this, or that. It's very interesting and it's a great talking point. KL: I mean you've obviously been like very aware of protecting her. CP: Yes. It's a complicated life but it's made it interesting and I accept the challenge, I appreciate it. KL: So I don't know do you, what else? CP: What else? KL: I was going to say because you're working, and you know so like your social life are you like maintaining friendships, I don't know, video friending? CP: When you're in nursing school you don't really have a social life, the on running joke it's like choose three eating, sleeping, social life, and good grades. You can't have it all. So usually nine times out of ten your social life is what is nonexistent and it's really unfortunate because when I was in college you know it's you're focused, I had the nursing major degree, I actually have a Spanish for Healthcare certificate which is almost a minor, I think I was like one class short of it actually being a minor. So I was really focused on school, I had jobs, I was on the varsity soccer team and I was on club rugby, I had a lot going on. So really my school and my sports were my social life, I didn't really have one. So after graduation I was like wow I can actually hang out with my friends, we can go places, we can do things, and then I had about five months of that and then Covid hit and now we're back to I don't have a social life because there's nothing open anymore. But I am video chatting, I am calling, texting, obviously you hang out with people at work while you're at work but it's entirely (break in audio) so I'm looking forward to when things open up again and you can go places like go to a park and just be outside and people watch and go to a restaurant, meet up with friends, you know that kind of thing. I actually miss -- from D.C., I miss having the ability to just bar hop. [Near here?] I lived on the same block as three different bars so if you wanted to go out and some place got boring you could walk down the street. If you needed to go somewhere that was far away you could just call an Uber or a Lyft, much less or I should say there are not as many people who drive for those programs around here. So, like the one day I pulled up Uber or Lyft just to see if there was anyone even around and I don't think Uber had anyone and I think Lyft had one person. I'm kind of in culture shock in that aspect but I'm getting through it. KL: Yeah that's always interesting. I had a question and now I don't remember it. Oh so you're active in sports are you trying to get outside now, do you -- I know those are like the mental things I think that during this time are probably like super helpful. CP: Yes, I actually for the first time since I was like four years old decided to not be on a team sport after college, I am working out like by myself. I was going to the gym but obviously that's kind of changed now, I'm lucky enough to have a huge driveway so I actually work out outside in the driveway, I can go for a run, there's lots of trails around here. I'm enjoying the fact that I can choose when and what I want to do when I work out which isn't the case when you have any kind of sports team usually. And I'm also enjoying the fact that I'm just like you know what I have a lot of errands to run, I can't work out today, like no required practice and I believe it or not am really enjoying that and I don't know maybe I could go back to like an adult recreational league in the future but as far as now is concerned I'm really enjoying me time because for a long time, I mean sports, school, it wasn't me it was what I was doing, so I think what Covid taught me to be honest was just be which I've enjoyed because obviously my work life is very busy, so when I get home it's nice to just be. And I've also been able to spend more time than I thought with my girlfriend. She actually moved to Virginia after college but then Covid hit and her job became remote, so she actually moved back to PA to live with her parents which is a like an hour or so from me, so on times when I have like a few days off or long weekends I go there or she comes here. So able to spend a lot more time with her than I would have been, had this pandemic not happened, so you know. KL: That's good I'm glad it worked out. Like a lot of people have been saying that you know, I mean of course you know it's taught people to really just slow down and kind of take care of themselves or realize how taking care of themselves, like what that means to them. CP: Most definitely. KL: So that's good. What other positive things have come out of it, do you have any like fun hobbies or no you're just? CP: Positive, my grandmother has a pretty large property and she has a large house for being here by herself for so long. She bought a house that would be able to comfortably live her, her son's family and my mother's family, so she has enough room for eight people in this house. So it's a very large house, obviously many beds, many bathrooms, multiple stories, and she has the yard to support it. So I've been really trying to help her clean the house, get rid of extra stuff she doesn't need, work on the yard, it's a lot of upkeep. I realized that in the process I don't want a big yard when I grow up or a big house, it's a lot of work and I'm really -- you know like to each his own, I'm proud of people for doing that if that's what they want but like I don't need that and that's okay. KL: Yeah, I hear you there. CP: I feel like when I was a kid my mom was like I just cleaned the floor oh my god how did it happen I'm like well yeah it happened. But now I'm the person saying oh my god I just cleaned the floor how did that happen. KL: I mean I get that, being home all the time now I have two children and it's like just I'm like working and then I walk to do whatever, I get water and I'm like where are there dishes, it's never ending all the things. But it's also been nice to just be like I'm working and now it's ten o'clock in the morning let's go for a walk and then I'll get back to work afterwards, like there's something about this you know like yeah. CP: I wonder how life is going to be like in the future after all this kind of calms down, I think it's made a lot of business owners and a lot of people realize what jobs aren't really needed per se. And I don't want to say needed for lack of a better term but there are a lot of people that I feel like their staffing is going to drop, because they realize that they can function without it. I feel like a lot of businesses have found a way around it. Like I know for example there are a lot of places who are suddenly creating outdoor seating when they never had it before, because people are requesting outdoor seating they're not going to eat inside, to each his own. But it's very interesting because people are like throwing up tents and then buying extra tables and they're like oh we have ten tables outside now. I don't know, I kind of hope they keep that stuff. KL: So now has your unit gone back? CP: Yes, we have, we are at full functioning capacity. They need to think about it if people who were intending to come into the hospital for all these things everybody's coming in all of a sudden and everybody's coming in worse because everybody delayed it. So, length of stays are longer, the amount of people getting treated raises exponentially. It's also forcing people out sooner because they don't want people to stay into the hospital too long. Like they're goal is to get up and walk the same day, that night of as opposed to just rest. And I know you know a couple of generations back you would have same day surgeries that people come in for in the morning and they leave that afternoon people would be in the hospital an entire day before, have the surgery and then be in the hospital an entire day after. We've drastically changed things. KL: Yes, that's interesting, I mean do you think that people probably do better at home or they're more comfortable at home or it depends on what they have? CP: It depends on their whole (break in audio) take that into consideration, we have special nurses to do case management for that. But I mean if they have a support system they'll probably thrive better in the hospital or at home than at the hospital, there's less noise for sure, more rest ability, better healing capabilities, yes. KL: I don't know, anything else, I'm trying to look at my list of subjects. CP: I can't think of anything off the top of my head. What are your other questions, it might trigger something? KL: Well some of our categories are about social life and personal pursuits which gardening is now your new. And then mental and physical health. CP: Yes, on that note my therapist was like, who I've been seeing for years, is like maybe you should start journaling and I'm really not the kind of person that opens up a journal at the end of the day and says today I did this, I'm just not that kind of person, I know it works for a lot of people, it's just like my job is so busy like I don't want to think about it when I get home. Like I leave it at work for a reason. So I bought these books and it's like three thousand questions about me, three thousand would you rather and I fill those out and that's my version of journaling, because it asks you questions that you would not think about. Some of them are like surface value that you just know the answer right off the top of your head, and others you really have to think about. And she like we go off of those deep questions and it's like what made you think today kind of thing. That's my form of like that keeps me sane, that keeps me grounded. KL: I purposely did not look at your stuff that you filled out on the form so I wouldn't be asking you those things that you wrote about. I feel like you know when you talked about well living with someone who you have to be careful with health wise I know someone who's a doctor and yeah I mean she just like showers at work, puts real clothes on, goes home, showers when she gets home, changes, you know there's just like a process that's a new process really that you wouldn't have done before. CP: I've also had to invest in other gear like other uniforms because they're getting used so heavily, I've bought other like scrub caps, yeah, I've gone through a lot of stuff. And my floor they try to keep completely free of anyone who has the virus, they send people to my floor who are immunocompromised, so my floor is like relatively safe unless I get somewhere else. So I bring everything home, we have a shower on the first floor, I hop right in the shower, I throw my uniform right in the washer and she stays upstairs the entire time period and I'm just like hey I'm out of the shower now, the stuff's in the washer, you can come down we can have dinner. KL: I feel like, yeah there's like a lot of mental pressure on, you know, someone like you who's just like in a hospital all the time. To just worry about everyone else around you. CP: Yes, you try to limit your interactions with people too especially when you're just coming home from work, like if I have to get gas, I try to use the pump farthest away from people. If I have to go shopping, I like to try to give people an extra wide berth, but you know I try not to go shopping or get gas on days that I had just worked in the hospital. I do what I can because I'd want people to do that for me as well. KL: I went to a doctor recently, a dermatologist and you know I had to take my mask off and I thought oh my gosh it was like my first time really doing anything and then I'm like of course like for anything that she needs to see I've got to take my mask off. And you know she was saying too that not that she ever really stopped working but because nothing was emergency unless it was, she would come in. And she said at first it was just like even though she'd see a few patients during the day, and it wasn't a lot of work and she was just looking at people's faces and then she'd go home and she said she would be totally done, like mentally done just from the fact that people were taking their masks off in front of her. You know how quicKLy that mental -- that's changed for just being like normal being close to people and suddenly that's like something scary, that just takes your energy. CP: It does, it really does. It's definitely taxing. KL: I mean I thought about her saying that and I was like yeah and she is afraid to see her parents and like they live in Pittsburgh and because she'd have to do like a two week quarantine and then stay with them you know it would just be like this extended time of vacation that she can't afford to take. Or, you know, is willing to do that or just be around them because they're immunocompromised and yeah like the mental energy, for like just the day to day everything and then to add that, you know. CP: I think the terrible or most stressful I guess you could say is god forbid something were to happen who you interacted with you'd be like was that my fault. And obviously you're never going to know who gave who, like if you had it, people go round they have no symptoms. Like you know what I'm saying, I think that right there is what is the most detrimental to people's mental health because I mean like I wear the mask because whoever I'm encountering might be immunocompromised. I feel confident that I'm young enough, I'm healthy enough, I don't have any comorbidities should I get it I would probably have like a fever, an upset tummy and body aches for like a day, think it's like a 24-hour bug and be fine. Someone else might literally die from it, so that's when come up to me because they see me as like they know I'm a nurse and they're like so what about these masks, do you believe they work, blah blah blah, and I tell them straight up front I'm like I'm wearing my mask for your benefit. I'm wearing my mask not because I think I'm going to get sick and I'm afraid of me getting sick, but because if I have it or I get it and I pass it to you you might die. And that really makes it very simple and makes it very clear for people. And that might seem very abrupt and very like grim but honestly that's what people understand when it's stressful and it's all complicated and that's the easiest way for me to explain it to people. KL: Would you have worn a mask beforehand like in your unit normally on a regular just like checking people, no? CP: Only if they had some form of virus, illness, that required something called droplet precautions. So if they had the flu we would go in with a mask and goggles and that's our droplet precautions. If they were actively coughing we would ask if they would be willing to wear a mask when we came into the room or if they're doing a breathing treatment during it we would actually have to gown up and we'd put on scrubs and we'd put on bootees as well as the mask and the goggles and then we'd go in the room. And you know everyone that has a cough, everyone that has a breathing treatment now we're treating as if they might have Covid even if they've tested negative because they might have picked it up in the interim. It's stressful, it obviously costs a lot of money and time and energy and supplies. But I mean for the mere fact that I'm going in this room, that room, all day long I'm going to do it because like I said if I get it it probably won't be as detrimental but other people in the hospital they are, I mean obviously they're there because they're sick, they're not choosing to be there because it's fun. Then the people who have to wear the N95s that would be normally people who wear N95s or would require it would be in special rooms called negative pressure rooms. And you would hardly ever need to actually use it for that intended purpose for things like tuberculosis. Like you don't see it very often anymore and the fact that they ran out of negative pressure rooms like the first day that we went into red phase was kind of mind boggling to me because it was almost like you always learned about it but you never actually saw it happen. And now we have to wear those any time someone's having a breathing treatment because they just might have it. KL: So are you at the big hospital, you're at Cedar Crest? CP: Yes. KL: Now I'm totally asking you, are you tired talking about this yet. Do they have Covid patients? I mean how is that for you every day go into work, I mean everything's isolated, but do you get daily briefings of what's going on? CP: So when Covid originally started and all the procedural units that were like ours but couldn't be customized into a medical surgical like a generalized floor a lot of their staff was either furloughed or floated, and they had staff posted at every entrance to the hospital scanning temperatures for every staff member and every visitor. Now when we opened things up again and we opened those units they are now only scanning visitors because they don't want as many staff members sitting at those desks, they want to open up the units again. So now we get a text message every morning that says this is your health screen, have you been in contact with anyone, do you think you have it, do you have any of these symptoms, are you feeling any different? If the answer is no to all these questions, you're cleared for work today and we do that every single day that we go into work. And yeah, it's changed things. KL: I feel like this is good for you at the beginning of your career -- maybe I'm making this up but it's like such an experience that you've probably again only talked about in classes and then you just get to experience it. CP: There are people in the nursing profession for like I said 60 years and they have never experienced anything like this. And I was right on the end, the tail end of normalcy, so I've seen both worlds and like I said there are nurses who have been in this profession for years and they're like we're all on the same level now there's no seniority with this. One has no practice with all of this, it's just everybody's trying to help each other survive. KL: Yeah and I wonder like moving forward how much of this is just going to inform everything about your career moving forward or you know change how all this works totally. CP: I am sure it will because in the future when they're in classes or they're in textbooks when they're rewriting stuff they're going to talk about the generation that dealt with the pandemic, or they're going to talk about the new nurses that started right before, during, right after, like a hundred percent. Like there's going to be an era almost as if it were like talking about a generation like Millennial or Gen Z but there's going to be something, there's going to be an era of nursing pre-pandemic, like an era of beginning of nursing like kind of when it started getting scientific, pre pandemic, post pandemic, there's going a hundred percent. Not necessarily before to really people think it was kind of like I was part of the generation that did bed baths with a washcloth and a basin and I used a washcloth. Like those are the two defining lines. But most definitely there's going to be so when did you start nursing before or after, yeah. KL: I know so you know this project it's doing forty years of public health with the interviews, so it's from like AIDS and HIV to Covid-19, so we have I think ten of these interviews that are with people who you know talking about AIDS and the AIDS epidemic and so like the comparisons have been interesting. But I mean you know listening to some people saying how you know people didn't want to take care of people that had AIDS in the beginning, you know like all this stuff and having to suit up when going into their brother in a hospital room and like the nurses not wanting to take care of them so the family had to do it, you know, and it's interesting to see that comparison or just yeah all of this you know. CP: Yes, and you make a valid point like when we learned about the AIDS crisis that happened and the nursing care that was provided or even in some cases not provided it's I'd like to think very different from how we're handling it today for the better. But it's just interesting because that's the only thing that really pops up in comparison, and I just think that the world kind of grew up a little bit in-between, or at least we all tried to. KL: What a sad conversation, anything fun you want to talk about? CP: I mean I don't know it is what it is, this is my life now. That's another thing I think nursing really like a lot of the people if you ever have nursing friends or colleagues that were nurses their view of life and their sense of humor are vastly different from common Joe just because I mean at the end of the day or night when we give a report and we're like all of our patients are alive, like that's great. Like that's our status quo as opposed to yeah, I got all these assignments done, or I graded all the paperwork. We are just very, we're trained differently, our mind works differently. Things don't really shock us [38:00] to an extent like when you talk about some person went into the hospital for something our immediate brain goes to well what did they do to -- what happened to cause that rather than oh my gosh that's crazy, because we're just used to it. KL: Like the sad things but also like so much that comes out of it you know like helping people and being with people and you know I would think like those relationships. I'm like an archivist, right, I just spend a lot of time in people's papers or now with the LGBT archives I'm lucky enough to meet people who I've already looked at their papers and then either I get to meet them in person or watch an oral history. And yes, you know, I have liked never cried from like both from sadness and like joy and happiness about any archives of like ever until these. It's like that description of yes there's just you know life right life stories it's like joyful and terrible and it's like everything. CP: I think that Covid a lot of people in the LGBTQ community have found each other over long distances, because they've been forced to because you weren't able to see your normal web of people in person. You were forced to use a lot more social media or long distance things which almost eliminated the distance. Like now I talk to people that I wouldn't normally talk to because it's normal for me to text people five minutes away and an hour away or lives in the next country. Like everything is digital now which isn't necessarily good or bad it's just it's forced people in the community to find others in the community through technology. Now I know for me who personally doesn't like human interaction to an extent, I like my time period to have me and be alone, I'm also when I'm comfortable very extroverted. But it allows people to interact more comfortably I think so I think people have found support in people that they never would have met or encountered prior to this because they have nothing else. They can't find people any other way so now that they're choosing to use electronic platforms, digital platforms they are finding so many more people. KL: Yes, I totally agree with that, even you know for me and seems like my work life. I've totally contacted people that I never would have seen, you know, around campus or that I've said hi to but just been like oh my gosh I'm going to email you let's talk. CP: Yes, it's interesting. KL: All right so we're coming to the end so if there's anything else that you think that you forgot to say, or you want to talk about? CP: I'm trying to think. KL: I asked you so many medical questions. CP: I am looking forward to going to more events with people like from the community. Like I miss, like D.C. there's so many LGBTQ friendly bars or dance floors, clubs, anything, you name it. I miss that and I do go to like Pride whenever it's available but it's nice that we have been able to like enjoy ourselves and have pride in ourselves without the big fanfare and the big parade. Which you know everybody loves a good parade but I'm looking forward to really ,really is relish the right word, like really really enjoying it when it comes back. Not necessarily taking it for granted because I think a lot of people did for a long time and I was really only coming into like actually fully enjoying it and getting to know my place in the community and what I understood. And I really didn't have a chance to be me at all these different functions until after college and obviously the five-month period before the pandemic hit. So I'm looking forward to it when everything calms down and it's safe for everyone again just because I will be so much more grateful for it, because I recognize that we could not, that there was a time where we couldn't have had it, or there was a time where I wish that we had it and we couldn't because I missed it because of this or that. That's it. KL: Great, I love it. All right well thank you so much for your time to do this, it's been great, totally fun. All right I'll stop recording and then I'll say goodbye to you in a normal way. END OF VIDEO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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00:44:33
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Christina Peyroux, July 29, 2020
Description
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Christina Peyroux discusses her experiences during the COVID-19 pandemic including how it has effected her job in nursing and living with her grandmother, a retired nurse.
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PH40_33
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
Date
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2020-07-29
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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https://lgbt.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/698e17af4ed4f3049ed078b183de6ff1.png
c6386d3a56d5aafff0f82c3ebf790f93
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Title
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
An account of the resource
In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Liz Bradbury
Interviewee
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Cynthia Rodriguez
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_31a.xml
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5.4 July 20, 2020 Cynthia Rodriguez, July 20, 2020 (Part 1) PH40_31a 01:12:29 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Cynthia Rodriguez Liz Bradbury video/mpeg RodriguezCynthia_2020072020_video.mp4 1.0:|23(8)|44(7)|71(8)|106(11)|141(16)|172(14)|199(2)|222(12)|245(2)|266(15)|291(7)|322(12)|363(4)|386(4)|409(15)|432(12)|451(6)|476(5)|501(17)|528(4)|547(14)|572(10)|593(5)|612(10)|633(15)|654(5)|675(2)|706(5)|731(3)|752(4)|783(6)|800(8)|821(5)|844(3)|863(9)|902(5)|925(4)|948(5)|967(10)|990(15)|1013(13)|1040(12)|1063(10)|1086(11)|1105(14)|1130(11)|1153(12)|1174(7)|1201(13)|1224(10)|1247(13)|1270(14)|1303(7)|1322(6)|1349(11)|1380(16)|1405(12)|1426(14)|1455(8)|1474(12)|1507(7)|1540(11)|1567(5)|1590(12)|1621(11)|1640(5)|1661(9)|1684(16)|1703(4)|1730(3)|1749(11)|1784(13)|1815(5) 0 https://youtu.be/NTfNbI4wEBk YouTube video 0 Interview Introduction CYNTHIA RODRIGUEZ: Okay. 
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 ; LIZ BRADBURY: I have this little backup recording where I’ve got the voice recording too just in case the thing doesn’t work or record. And I’m going to read you this, this thing. So with this project the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of -- oh, wait, I didn’t do some stuff. I’ve got to pin you, I forgot to do that, and I forgot to turn off my phone. I’ll start again. Pin video and I got the audio on. Okay. And I just want to be sure my phone is off. (clears throat) I’m sorry. 0 243 Current living/work/school situation LB: Okay. These are just general things. You can talk about anything you want, but just to check in, let’s start with some basic questions and ask who’s in your house with you? 
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 ; CR: My mom -- 
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 ; LB: So you’re -- 
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 ; CR: -- my mum.
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 ; LB: Okay, so that’s cool. You’re both there all the time? Are you working?
 ; 0 368 Missing summer classes because of upcoming surgery LB: So what’s it like being a student? And now, you’re doing everything online, I would assume. Are you taking classes in the summer?
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 ; CR: I did not have to take any classes this summer because originally, I was supposed to get surgery on my left foot, which did not happen because of COVID because they had cut out elective surgeries when the pandemic started. 0 438 Thoughts on Cedar Crest College opening back up/taking classes during the pandemic LB: Do you think that Cedar Crest will open for students, or is it all going to be online? 
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 ; CR: So far, what we’ve heard, but of course, things can change because they’ve been changing so quickly like all the time depending on how it’s going with the pandemic. As of right now, we are supposed to get what they’re calling a hybrid now experience in the fall, which honestly, I’m used to it anyway because I usually pick at least one online class per semester, so that’s a normal thing for me. 0 756 How the pandemic has changed school life/artistic work CR: They really give you opportunities there to even perform at the school. We had, prior to all this going down, like a student showcase every month that we would perform, show what we learned, so I was already performing with my guitar. The theater club held this big show at the end of the semester in our big main theater. 0 945 Keeping mom healthy during pandemic/keeping outings minimal LB: So have you been pretty much staying in, or what have you been doing? 
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 ; CR: Well, definitely like everybody else during quarantine, we stayed put here. We don’t really take any chances. I’m very protective of my mom. Even after green light or not, I don’t care about all that. 0 1075 Receiving government aid LB: Yeah, have you gotten additional money from the government or as you --? 
 ; CR: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s helped a little bit and the fact that we don’t have a mortgage anymore because we’ve had this house forever. All those little things helped a lot. 
 ; 0 1098 Communicating during the pandemic/Keeping busy during the pandemic/Coping with personal difficulties LB: So have you been communicating with a lot of people on media like this or by phone or texting or -- more than you would normally do compared to...? I would guess that you’re very involved with MCC, wouldn’t you say that? 
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 ; CR: Oh, yeah, yeah. But I’ve kept very, very busy. We’ve known each other for a while. You know I keep very busy with a lot of activities and I stay... From the beginning of this pandemic, I made a decision to keep some kind of structure in my life like a schedule because it’s so easy to fall into this rut. 0 1628 Friend who had to leave Italy during pandemic/Knowing people who have contracted Covid-19 LB: Let me ask you something. Do you know anybody that’s had the -- have -- has had the coronavirus or anybody that like [who got that?]?
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 ; CR: Actually, yes, especially in the beginning because I think a lot of people did not... They weren’t taking it seriously, I don’t think, you know? And so I think people were a lot more careless in the beginning because they just didn’t know before everyone’s wearing masks and I don’t think... 0 2165 Protecting self and family from catching Covid-19 CR: I feel like it’s just too new for us to really nail anything down, to really know about it. So with all that, that’s all I need. I just protect myself across the board. I don’t care what’s like -- unless they really learn about it, figure it out, get a vaccine, whatever, I feel we’re going to take these precautions the rest of the year until next year. 0 2330 Participating in the Black Lives Matter movement CR: And speaking of that, the other thing that I got involved with unfortunately, not that I was trying to do that now during COVID, I’ve been part of the Black Lives Matter movement the whole time it’s been around, for seven years now, I think, ish. And since like Trayvon Martin times, been involved with that, been using actually the same signs that I made a long time ago at my old studio, and I wasn’t going to do that. 0 2492 Thoughts on Dr. Rachel Levine/Governor Tom Wolf's handling of the pandemic LB: What do you think about...? And then one of the things we have here in the state of Pennsylvania is that we get to see Dr. Rachel Levine on the news, and she’s the secretary of health. Have you had a chance to see her? She’s transgender, and she is speaking about -- I mean, we really have pretty good leadership in the state of Pennsylvania. Has that affected you, or have you had a chance to see that? 
 ; 0 2668 Frustrations over state opening too soon/People not wanting to take Covid precautions CR: I really wish we had done that longer honestly. I wish we’d have done... I’m just being honest about that. I feel like we opened too soon. I think we went the whole business as usual too soon, and now, we’re seeing a spike. It’s totally going to affect the -- all school for everybody across the board and for the whole country. 0 2958 Concerns over children returning to school during pandemic/for parents during pandemic/caretakers and healthcare workers CR: That’s a big concern for me for people when kids go back to school. I think that’s my biggest concern is kids coming -- basically coming back home and bringing this stuff -- even if they’re not sick, if they don't have symptoms coming home and infecting their parents, grandparents. That’s a big concern of mine. 0 3132 Working at the Allentown Women's Center and concerns for former colleagues CR: I used to work at Allentown Women’s Center for six years, all my best friends work there. Oh, that’s been like a nightmare just worrying about them, and every time I talk to them, not being able to be close to them any time soon, like, “You guys, really be careful,” and it’s -- 
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 ; LB: Are they open? 
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 ; CR: -- and praying for them every day. Hmm?
 ; 0 3308 Uncertainty over how the pandemic will pan out LB: We’re still in the beginning of it too. 
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 ; CR: Huh? 
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 ; LB: We’re just at the beginning of it too. We don’t even know what’s going to happen. I mean if people are looking at this video of you talking thirty years from now, they know what happened. 0 3377 Source of hope during pandemic LB: What’s giving you hope? I mean, what’s the best thing that’s happened out of this, or what’s really giving you hope, or generally, what gives you hope? 
 ; 
 ; CR: I think the biggest thing that’s kept me together like mentally, emotionally, everything is probably I’m really grateful for my spirituality honestly. 0 3434 Importance of staying connected digitally/having support systems CR: I think is really important for people to have that support system and a Zoom account (laughs) to really connect with people because it is -- I feel bad for anyone that doesn’t have that connection via... Like if they don’t have good internet or a laptop or whatever, I really feel for them because that’s like the lifeline for most people to the outside world. 0 3521 Using Tinder during the pandemic/Forming a romantic relationship during the pandemic LB: Are you using any dating apps or any queer dating apps or anything? 
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 ; CR: (laughs) Yeah, Tinder is probably not the best --
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 ; LB: (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) 
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 ; CR: (laughs) Yeah. Yeah, I feel like you have to be really, really careful. Shoot, I haven’t done like online dating app [00:59:00] or anything for years. 0 3653 Heightened feelings of loneliness during the pandemic CR: If somebody wasn’t partnered before this went down, this is like -- then it’s been -- I know it’s been tough for people. I got lucky, but I know like that’s -- it is what it is though. Huh?
 ; 
 ; LB: I think people who are living alone, completely alone, it’s very, very hard for them. 
 ; 0 3756 Thoughts for the future LB: So we’re pretty much at the end of this. I wanted to just ask you in the future, we hope that somebody -- well, I think people will look at these. These are very interesting artifacts because comparing this to the flu that happened a hundred years ago, a hundred and two years ago, the flu epidemic of 1918, they didn’t have social media then. 0 4154 Wanting to get in contact with old friends from Spain LB: You spent a lot of time in Europe or you were in Europe last year for three and a half months, and I’m sure you have friends in other countries too that -- have you been communicating with those people in other countries about what that -- their experiences were, or was it mostly students that were from here that you were around? 0 4263 Conclusion LB: Yeah. Well, this has been a great interview. I really, really appreciate you taking your time to do this with me today, and -- 
 ; 
 ; CR: Thank you. 
 ; 
 ; LB: -- I appreciate it very much. 0 MovingImage Cynthia Rodriguez talks about how the current COVID-19 pandemic is affecting her, her friends and family, her experience as a full time student and her work as an artist and musician. She also talks about prayer and meditation and civil rights activism including Black Lives Matter. Cynthia Rodriguez Part 1 2020-07-20 CYNTHIA RODRIGUEZ: Okay. LIZ BRADBURY: I have this little backup recording where I've got the voice recording too just in case the thing doesn't work or record. And I'm going to read you this, this thing. So with this project the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of -- oh, wait, I didn't do some stuff. I've got to pin you, I forgot to do that, and I forgot to turn off my phone. I'll start again. Pin video and I got the audio on. Okay. And I just want to be sure my phone is off. (clears throat) I'm sorry. CR: Make sure I don't get interrupted. (speaking Spanish) Sorry. LB: (Spanish), right? CR: Yeah, yeah. LB: Okay, I'll start again. With this project, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury, and I'm here with Cynthia Rodriguez to talk to her about her experiences in the Lehigh Valley community during this time of the COVID-19 epidemic as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive. We're meeting on Zoom on July 20th, 2020. So thank you so much, Cynthia, for being willing to speak with us today. To start, can you please state your full name and spell it for me please? CR: Sure. It's Cynthia, C-Y-N-T-H-I-A, Rodriguez, R-O-D-R-I-G-U-E-Z. LB: Okay. And will you please share your birthdate? CR: Sure, it's 04/29/71. I am forty-nine years old. LB: Okay, and what town are you in? CR: I'm in Allentown, Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania. LB: Great. This is the consent portion. So do you consent to this interview today? CR: Yes, ma'am. LB: Okay. Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable formats? CR: Yes. LB: Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats including films, articles, websites, presentations, and other things we may not even understand now because it'll be -- CR: Yeah. LB: -- in the future? Great. Do you understand that you'll have 30 days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview and identify parts you'd like to delete and or withdraw from the project? You can withdraw the whole thing if you --? CR: Yes. LB: So what is your zip code? CR: It is 18109. LB: Okay, and you just stated your age. You said you're forty-nine. CR: Yes. LB: And how do you identify within the LGBT community? So you could say anything about how you identify within the community. CR: I would identify myself as a soft butch lesbian. LB: Okay. And here are some things to talk about, and we can talk about all sorts of different -- and would you say that you're cisgender? CR: Yes. LB: Okay. These are just general things. You can talk about anything you want, but just to check in, let's start with some basic questions and ask who's in your house with you? CR: My mom -- LB: So you're -- CR: -- my mum. LB: Okay, so that's cool. You're both there all the time? Are you working? CR: Yeah, I work part time. I've been mostly working part time since I went back to school as a full-time student. LB: Uh-huh. So what are you doing? CR: I clean part time. I was working at Stonewall for -- as a security for a few years, and that ended this year especially with everything closing. LB: Yeah. So -- LB: And I'm a full-time student. CR: Oh, so you're still a full-time student? LB: Yes, I am right now. I graduated from LCCC with an associate's in general studies, and now I've been -- I'm in Cedar Crest College. I am an art therapy major, and, God willing, I'll be graduating in the spring and going into their master's program in the fall. CR: A master's in Cedar Crest? LB: Yes. CR: Oh, cool. LB: And -- CR: Yeah, I'm planning to do it all the way. I'm going to get -- go for my doctorate after that, hopefully at Drexel in art therapy. LB: Uh-huh. So your master's will be in art therapy too? CR: Yeah, I'm getting a bachelor's in art therapy at Cedar Crest in the spring, then from there immediately, I'll be going into their master's program for art therapy in the fall, so I can get my license to practice. And I plan on continuing my education for art therapy hopefully at Drexel because there are very few places in the northeast that do that, that offer that program for art therapists, so yeah. So my ultimate goal is to have my own practice and hopefully come back to Cedar Crest as a professor. LB: Oh, cool, that'd be neat. Yeah. So what's it like being a student? And now, you're doing everything online, I would assume. Are you taking classes in the summer? CR: I did not have to take any classes this summer because originally, I was supposed to get surgery on my left foot, which did not happen because of COVID because they had cut out elective surgeries when the pandemic started. And by the time they allowed it, it was too late for me to do that since class is starting soon, and there's a long recovery time for the type of surgery I'm getting. It's about a few months of recovery time at least because it's the Achilles tendon. LB: Oh, God, yeah. CR: Yeah, I had it done on my right foot when I had a bone here -- a bone spur removed. I was laid up all summer. That was five years ago, and they said that I would eventually have to get it on my left foot, which that would have been this year because I can only do that during the summer because of school. So since that didn't happen, it's been postponed till next summer after graduation. LB: Do you think that Cedar Crest will open for students, or is it all going to be online? CR: So far, what we've heard, but of course, things can change because they've been changing so quickly like all the time depending on how it's going with the pandemic. As of right now, we are supposed to get what they're calling a hybrid now experience in the fall, which honestly, I'm used to it anyway because I usually pick at least one online class per semester, so that's a normal thing for me. However, if things change, students may have to switch some classes because it's some things -- I don't know how they're going to navigate that as far as classes that we really need to do live, hands-on especially being like an art/psych major, which is basically what an art therapy major is. I can see maybe one, possibly two classes that I can do online. The rest, I don't know because it's -- I'm supposed to take printing, print shop this fall, so I don't know how that's going to work. With the ceramics class, our professor got creative thankfully. He basically sent us home with a bunch of clay and told us to make stuff, and (laughs) he was much more lenient. He was like, "You can be abstract." I'm thinking of course, you know, and we would like video and all kinds of stuff. They do the best they can. We did that for art therapy and -- but for... We'll see. And then for music, I minor in music, it depends on the instructors, which are basically like independent contractors there anyway, that you meet one-on-one. I take an instrument every semester. I have learned guitar, piano there, and this semester, I'm supposed to do drums. I don't know how that's going to work. I did plan on getting my own set anyway, so I don't know. We have to get creative. Maybe they can teach me while I have my drum set in front of the laptop. I have no idea. It's going to be a lot of fun trying to figure it out. Everyone jokes that I'm trying to become my -- a one -- because I sing too, my own one-woman band, so... I love music, and I love having that opportunity at Cedar Crest to learn all these instruments. After this semester for my last undergrad semester, I was planning to learn sax. So if I'm done there, I'll have like four instruments at least under my belt, but -- so things like that. Depending on how they figure that out, I may have to switch classes last minute. Honestly, I'm really trying to stay flexible mentally to be ready for anything and just go with the flow. Because these days, I feel if you don't have that mentality, you can just really go nuts. And I know that that may not vibe with the people that are not too good with change and are so accustomed to like a set schedule and so structured. But you really can't be like that these days. You know, this pandemic I realized, well, you kind of have to go with the flow or you're going to really stress yourself out. LB: Yeah. Do you have a saxophone? CR: No, but I would totally be getting one (laughs) if it all works out well for the spring. Amazon is your best friend during quarantine. LB: (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) in a way, yeah. I was going to say I have a C saxophone, which is a -- CR: Nice. LB: -- which I will be happy to give you for as long as you want. CR: No way, wow. LB: I haven't used it in a long time. I was studying clarinet, and one of the things I found -- and I don't want to be discouraging you -- but if you've never played the saxophone or clarinet before, it's hard to learn it as an adult. Like piano and guitar is pretty -- and -- but like Trish and I, she wanted to learn violin and I wanted to learn clarinet actually, they just -- it's very hard to learn those as adults. You can pick up piano great but -- [boy?]. But anyway, so I have a C saxophone with a mouthpiece and everything. CR: Oh, great. LB: That's a marching band saxophone. So it's not really the jazz kind, but it's like a regular saxophone. And so if you want to have that, I will lend that to you probably forever because I can't imagine -- CR: (laughs) LB: -- as I -- CR: Permanently borrow your saxophone? LB: You could permanently borrow. I can't imagine me needing this and if -- CR: Thank you. LB: -- and I said to Trish, "I wish I knew somebody that needed to borrow the saxophone, I would be happy to --" CR: That would be great, thank you, thank you so much. LB: Get to that point, feel free, and I will lend you. CR: Great. LB: I haven't used it in a long time. I had it refurbished right before when I was using it, but that was a long time ago, so I don't know -- CR: Oh, wow. LB: -- if it works. CR: Yeah, it's been great. They really give you opportunities there to even perform at the school. We had, prior to all this going down, like a student showcase every month that we would perform, show what we learned, so I was already performing with my guitar. The theater club held this big show at the end of the semester in our big main theater. To be onstage with the whole school, I mean it was great. It was great. I felt like a rock star because I have an electric guitar as well, and I was doing that. They're fantastic. I mean we had a lot of... That's going to be the kind of -- like one of the tougher things going back, not really being able to fully enjoy like some of the activities that we had. Like, we have a great theater department. I was heavily involved with that. I was part of their stage crew backstage like painting, building sets. And the biggest thing that I'm warned honestly like with the creative things there was they were going to do this play this past semester called Silent Sky, which I was really excited about. The head of the theater department took me out to lunch last summer when I came back from studying abroad in Spain, and she gave me the script to read and offered me a solo art exhibit in the lobby of the theater to go with this play, like a whole woman-centered kind of exhibit to go with the play. Because the play if you're not familiar with it, it's like that one movie Hidden Figures about the female astronomers or NASA, working in that?. Yeah, it was similar to that. I think it was a true story too. So we had this whole thing. They had just printed -- they had just printed the posters for me for my exhibit right before the school shut down -- LB: No. CR: -- in mid-March. Oh, it was... That would have been a huge break. I was already in the middle of working on these four major, big, installation mixed-media pieces I had set. I got the approval of like the cabinet, the school, the president who -- oh, actually she's -- we're -- really we're real tight over there at the college, Elizabeth. I had her on my radio show that I had there, and she was like, "Oh, I'd love to have you back here as a professor." She's really cool, Elizabeth Meade. But, yeah, I was really excited. I went through this whole approval process. I even had my own art assistant and I was doing all this stuff working with the theater department excited about having the show and a reception and the whole thing and then, boom, then that happens, so we closed. LB: Yeah, that's tough. CR: Yes. LB: So have you been pretty much staying in, or what have you been doing? CR: Well, definitely like everybody else during quarantine, we stayed put here. We don't really take any chances. I'm very protective of my mom. Even after green light or not, I don't care about all that. Because I feel green light does not mean the pandemic is over, which I think people have been confusing the two. Yeah, she's been like grounded for months now. But she goes out like when -- with another immediate family member. I mean, we basically have a hazmat thing on her because we don't want to take any chances. I have an elderly parent, and we're both actually immune compromised. I have diabetes, so I have to watch. It was -- [unless changed?] that it's probably not one of the best things to have during this pandemic right now, diabetes. So I've been really, really careful, very minimal contact to no contact with anybody. And honestly, Liz, it's not even more for me. I will probably survive for the most part, but I don't think she would, so I can't -- I don't take any chances with that. LB: Yeah, (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) -- CR: We keep it very minimal. I don't go to many places other than my part-time job. I clean a doctor's office a couple of times a week, so I was considered essential, so I never stopped working for this cleaning service. I was thankful for that, you know, so... I haven't stopped working throughout the whole time. But fortunately, I get to work by myself, so I didn't have to worry about being around anyone. LB: Yeah, have you gotten additional money from the government or as you --? CR: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.That's helped a little bit and the fact that we don't have a mortgage anymore because we've had this house forever. All those little things helped a lot. LB: Yeah, that makes a big difference. CR: Oh yeah, a big, big difference. LB: It's (inaudible) how that changes. So have you been communicating with a lot of people on media like this or by phone or texting or -- more than you would normally do compared to...? I would guess that you're very involved with MCC, wouldn't you say that? CR: Oh, yeah, yeah. But I've kept very, very busy. We've known each other for a while. You know I keep very busy with a lot of activities and I stay... From the beginning of this pandemic, I made a decision to keep some kind of structure in my life like a schedule because it's so easy to fall into this rut. I would joke about it nonstop when it first started. I was posting on Facebook, but I will be like, "There is no excuse to not wear pants people," you know, like yeah... (laughter) And I've had to push myself, but I would -- especially with school and being online, just it can be like -- you can get lazy. I would make an effort to just keep the routine. I would get up every day, take a shower, brush my teeth, put on real clothes. I didn't want to roam around in pajamas all day. That was a huge, huge thing for me because I know how it's so easy to fall into. It's so easy, so I really made an effort. Even if I was going to stay in the house all day, it didn't matter. We have a yard and stuff. Fortunately, we get to like go outside and not be cooped up all day. But almost from the beginning, I started going to the park more. I go almost every day to our local park just to -- even if it's just to get some air and sunshine. I wasn't going to be cooped up for just -- yeah. I thought that was really important. With the activities, well, school kept me till the end -- almost the end of May, I want to say -- no, like mid-May. That kept me pretty busy because I had six classes, so that's enough to keep you busy for a while. Other than that, after that ended, I realized I had to -- other than working a little bit, I had to do more things, so... During this whole thing, I joined the Red Cross, and I've been in training for one of their jobs, a caseworker but -- that you could do online. That was like a safe job. But now, I want to expand to like in-person stuff, possibly transport blood and things like that from blood drives and things like that. There's like a million jobs they had there, volunteer work that you can do for them. As of right now, what I've been doing lately for them -- to help clients that seek help from the Red Cross. I'm one of their Spanish interpreters now, so that's been -- you know, that's just on the phone or, yes, that can be via Zoom or whatever, but there are plenty of meetings, opportunities. They provide free training on a lot of stuff when you're a volunteer, first aid, CPR, etc., which I'm certified in all that anyway because of prior jobs but... So I did that to occupy my time, and I just felt like I wanted to give back and help the community a little bit in the pandemic. Because you can just get in your head a lot and just feel sorry for yourself about it, and I'm not about that. It was like I just want to get out of my head, help other people, and just be proactive about it, you know? Like, you can be proactive during a crisis like this just like anything else and just do your part. So other than that, I took up learning American Sign Language. I've been taking an ESL course because I love learning different languages, and I've always wanted to learn sign language. So I'm working on becoming trilingual, and I want to practice with other people via Zoom that speak as well. With one, I've been doing that with a friend of mine. So I'm doing that, and, yeah, just I, like, over cope. I do a lot of stuff and play my guitars, keyboard, and writing, doing art. It's a ton of stuff. And I feel like the other thing that I've heard a lot from the beginning of the pandemic that I've never -- I never had to deal with even during the crisis, oh, I'm bored, I'm bored. Boredom seemed to be like a huge issue with people when it first started and I guess even now, but I'm never bored. That's not even part of my vocabulary. (laughs) Like before crisis, after, during, whatever, I still feel like I don't even have enough time in the day usually to do everything that I want to do because I feel like it's really what you make of it. And I can be indoors forever, and I'll never find -- like I'll never not find something to do. I always write a to-do list every day, I've never stopped, I've been doing that for years. I'm also in recovery. So I was a sponsor, and I do step work in Al-Anon for friends and families of alcoholics. I'm not one myself, but you basically follow the same program. So that's kept me busy too as of last about a year or so I've been in it. And so I do that and I'm now the chair the -- the new chair of the meeting every Friday night. So I work on that. My relationship ended that I had almost a year and a half. She was an alcoholic, so I got into Al-Anon to kind of be a support or whatever, but unfortunately, that ended during the beginning of the pandemic. And so that was probably the hardest part for me was dealing with a double whammy, oh, pandemic and a breakup, yay, things are great, so... (laughs) But I have a big support system, family, friends, people from church, and just everybody, so I made it through. The professors were great. Everyone was very patient and understanding about, like, everything. So I got through that. I decided to stay in the program for myself because it's still good. So everybody could use that probably. So I do that. So, as far as communicating with people, I've never stopped. It's been like business as usual just like via the internet, and it's been fantastic, and I had no problems with it. I'm practically in Zoom meetings Monday through Friday with all different people with -- I talk to my advisor, the therapist. And I have a behavior specialist for adult ADHD that I was diagnosed, which would explain all my activity probably a lot, and I'm on medication for that Adderall, so I have a shrink I talk to once a month about that. And, yeah, my sponsor, advisor from school. So I'm basically in the meeting, and plus, I do Zoom things, like I said, with sign language. I do guitar jams with a friend from Georgia who was my roommate in Spain. So I keep super busy like... But that's Monday through Friday, Zooming all week, and I've been involved with a big online lesbian community, lesbians around the country, Canada, and Europe that I talk to regularly almost every day with this chat forum, and we meet via Zoom. So I keep really, really busy with all that stuff. I just have to close this door just real quick so -- LB: Okay. CR: -- just to minimize noise a little bit. (pause) CR: Sorry about that. LB: No problem. CR: I'm just like rattling, but it's been really -- LB: Well, let me -- CR: Huh? LB: Let me ask you something. Do you know anybody that's had the -- have -- has had the coronavirus or anybody that like [who got that?]? CR: Actually, yes, especially in the beginning because I think a lot of people did not... They weren't taking it seriously, I don't think, you know? And so I think people were a lot more careless in the beginning because they just didn't know before everyone's wearing masks and I don't think... You know, the weird thing is -- well, not like funny, funny, but when this all started months -- maybe by the beginning of March, I already definitely could tell that it was going to be bad. I knew like for some -- like I knew it was going to get to this point, and people thought I was being paranoid including my ex-girlfriend and her mom. It's funny like as this was all approaching and I just saw the signs, and I remember talking to them about it. Like, I was, "This is going to be -- this is really going to be bad. This is going to big. I think everything is about to change really soon," and they were like, "Oh, no, no, don't worry. This is just going to pass by like Y2K." (laughs) LB: Oh. CR: I was like, "Y2K? I don't think so." (laughter) I'm like, "I don't think so. I think this is really going to hit everybody like they're not expecting it." Because I was watching Europe and everything, and I knew it was going to be bad. I knew something big was coming, and I had a friend from school who was kind of stuck in Italy for a minute. Because the way -- I went to Spain last spring, it was her turn this summer, and she was in Rome, and I felt so bad for her. I had a bad feeling that it was going to be very short-lived, and she had been planning for this for a year and so excited, and then halfway through the trip, they sent her home. They cut off all study abroad programs, and I'm like, "Wow, I had a good time last spring." I was there three and a half months. That was fantastic. She had to come home because that was just when Italy was closing basically, and if she wouldn't have left when she did, she would have totally been stuck over there, you know, so... I remember already by mid-March, I had started getting masks and all kinds of stuff. And I remember getting -- giving my ex and her mom supplies just before all this started, and they thought I was just being paranoid, which I kind of am naturally anyway, but it was really coming in handy, you know? I remember bringing them -- towards the end, I brought this box. I'm like, "I'm calling it -- this the anti-COVID box." I brought them a bunch of -- this was, yeah, like before mid-March -- a bunch of latex gloves, masks, sanitizer before they all started going off the shelf, and I remember they laughed at me. They were like, "Oh, no, this is --" I'm like, "Hold on to this. Trust me, you're going to need it," you know? LB: Yes. CR: And what happens? I was thinking to myself afterwards ; I'm like, I'm sure they're sitting around thinking, yeah, she called it. LB: Yeah, she called it. CR: (laughs) Yeah, so... LB: So you know people who've had it or...? CR: Oh, yeah, I was going to tell you -- LB: Yeah. CR: Hold on one second. (pause) CR: Sorry about that. It was really scary in the beginning. Probably, oh, gosh, almost a month, going -- so it started in mid-March, it all got shut down. Maybe almost for a month, one person after another who I knew what was starting to get it, some really, really close friends. And I think it was just coupled with the breakup and trying to finish school online, everything was so chaotic. Now, of course, they're going to be totally ready and prepared all summer, but it was so sudden and everyone -- and they just had to adapt, we all had to adapt right away in such a short period of time. The professors were going nuts like, "How are we going to do this?" It was just all so new in the beginning, and just with everything else, the life stuff, it was crazy. I had a slight breakdown at first, like emotionally between that and friends getting sick and then I was getting worried about getting sick and my mom, so really buckling down, and we're not going anywhere. It was a really kind of a state of panic almost in the beginning. And I had some really close friends from other states getting it. My one friend, she's still recovering, she lives in -- originally from Alabama, one of my best friends, and she is in Kansas. She's a professor of biology there. I'm pretty sure she got it at her school. She got very sick from corona, and she was already immune compromised. Now, she's still dealing with the after effects, like the stuff that it dealt. She no longer has corona that I know of, but it did some damage with the other stuff that she has, so she's still dealing with that. Last time, she was at the Mayo Clinic. LB: Oh, my. CR: And my friend from Georgia that I mentioned before, my guitar buddy who I met in Barcelona, Spain, with -- we've kept in touch forever, like in touch since then with each other. She got it twice, and she's young, a young, heathy girl in her twenties. I feel like people are really... They have this illusion that, oh yeah, well, I'm not immune compromised, so I'm not... No, no, no, this is hitting and killing some healthy, young people out there. There's a sixteen-year-old I know from -- that my sister-in-law knows that -- a local person that died from it, a teenager. A friend of mine from church had several family members die from it. My brother had some friends in New York City that he grew up with and already knew for a long time that died from it. It just seemed like at least several times a week, we heard that somebody passed away. So when people got sick, we got really scared. I have one cousin -- and unfortunately, a lot of them are usually people that work a lot with the public. One cousin of mine, we were worried about her going back to work again. She works in a nursing home, and she got it pretty bad. And she had to stay home for a while. Luckily -- I don't know how she didn't get the rest of her family sick, but somehow, she didn't. She was isolated pretty well. So from all these people who are sick, their whole -- I would hear about their whole... It's not just when you're sick like at home with loved ones. You're not just under quarantine, but you're like under quarantine under quarantine because it's like you have to literally isolate yourself in your little bedroom with your cat or whatever, which now dogs and cats are getting it too apparently, you know? But -- LB: Yeah, but it doesn't make them sick, and they can't give it to anyone else, so it's kind of a weird thing. Like they're carriers -- CR: It is weird. LB: -- you know? I don't think -- CR: And like -- LB: -- not really a danger I think to humans -- CR: It's -- LB: -- or to the pets, kind of an odd -- CR: Hopefully not. I mean it's like you hear... I feel like we still don't even know enough about it -- LB: But that is better -- CR: -- to know everything and then I heard that there's more than one strain. I mean you never know like... And it hits everyone differently, different -- it's just so crazy. I feel like it's just too new for us to really nail anything down, to really know about it. So with all that, that's all I need. I just protect myself across the board. I don't care what's like -- unless they really learn about it, figure it out, get a vaccine, whatever, I feel we're going to take these precautions the rest of the year until next year. (sighs) Because I'm supposed to graduate in the spring ; I'm really hoping. I don't see that happening honestly, but I'm really hoping things go back to normal. I've waited so long, like over (laughs) 20 years to go back to school, to be able to walk that stage again with a four-year degree, and do the whole thing, cap and gown, etc., like the whole... I'm really, really, really excited about doing that like I did at LCCC. And I really want my mom to be able to be there, so... Like in my family, we're doing everything we can to keep her safe and healthy. LB: So that's your biggest concern is to keep your family healthy and safe? CR: Oh, yeah. That's been my number one priority. I feel like when a pandemic like this happens, which is like what, around your ears, it really makes you... I feel that the whole quarantine time -- at least for me and I hope a lot of people took this opportunity to do that. Maybe it's because -- (coughs) excuse me -- in recovery or I've always been really spiritual because of my church or whatever it maybe. I took a lot of time to reflect about things, about life, you know? LB: Mm-hmm. CR: That's when you really realize what's important. And I think not being able to go out and about and be so distracted as we usually are, and be stuck with family or whatever, like more time than you're usually used to, to get to know each other and to really just reflect on what's most important. This is a really big, rude awakening, kind of harsh reminder especially for those people that have lost people. There have been like entire families almost wiped out in this stuff, and it's really heartbreaking and sad. And I think with the time off from not being in school or at work or whatever it's been for people -- I feel like that definitely was an opportunity for people to change a lot of things. And speaking of that, the other thing that I got involved with unfortunately, not that I was trying to do that now during COVID, I've been part of the Black Lives Matter movement the whole time it's been around, for seven years now, I think, ish. And since like Trayvon Martin times, been involved with that, been using actually the same signs that I made a long time ago at my old studio, and I wasn't going to do that. I wasn't going to jump in to any rallies or anything any time soon. Under normal circumstances, I would have been to everything. I've been doing that for a long time, but it's -- but it was, of course, like a real concern and... But like my mask and I never take that off outside, and I really stayed. Like, I kept my distance from people. People got too close, I mean I got paranoid. I'm like, "Back up, like immunocompromised" you know like --? LB: Yeah. CR: So I've been really super careful about that. But I've been to a couple of rallies: one for George Floyd and the one from -- for Allentown that happened recently. So I've been involved -- pretty involved with that and a whole bunch of people in both rallies and just involved with a lot of the local organizations. I've been a member of Make the Road PA for some years now. LB: (inaudible) CR: I did some stuff for them. So still doing my activist thing with all that. Unfortunately, that was something that was completely for me -- this shouldn't be unexpected I guess, but that was an unexpected thing to deal with I felt like in the middle of all this going on, but I don't know. I guess everything happens for a reason, and there has been some change happening, which is good, more than I've seen the whole time I've been part of that movement. I think like any other -- like everything else, I feel like some things have gotten a little out of control. I feel like some real good, legitimate change whether it's doing any kind of reform [and things?], it's great. But when it goes to the -- starts going to the direction like, "We're going to take out the seventh episode of The Office" and stuff like that, it's like come on. That's not like -- you know that's not what it's about. Yeah. LB: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.. What do you think about...? And then one of the things we have here in the state of Pennsylvania is that we get to see Dr. Rachel Levine on the news, and she's the secretary of health. Have you had a chance to see her? She's transgender, and she is speaking about -- I mean, we really have pretty good leadership in the state of Pennsylvania. Has that affected you, or have you had a chance to see that? CR: Yeah, I've seen her. Yeah, she seems pretty cool I think. I think she's been harassed a little bit especially during -- with now... I think she's been doing a good job, and this is kind of dumb, like just focusing on the fact that she's a trans woman. Like big deal, you know what I mean? As long as she's doing her job, I don't care what she is, you know what I mean? It's like... That I don't get. I don't think it has anything to do with somebody's job performance -- LB: [Work?]. CR: I think a lot of people just use that as an excuse for their hate speech or whatever they need to do but -- yeah. So I don't have any problems with that. Honestly -- I'm going to plug in my laptop soon before it dies. Hold on. LB: Okay. CR: I'm in the living room trying to get (inaudible). All right. I know like our governor, Wolf, right? LB: Yes. CR: Yeah. He's been under some fire with the way he dealt -- honestly, I like him. I like the way he's dealt with it. I was all okay with the whole shut down and everything. Sure, and probably because it was easier for me ; I was already an essential worker and going to school or whatever. But to me lives come first. I'm sorry, but it's like we can deal with all that later. If we don't take care of this, it's not going to matter. Nobody is going to be around for it, then we won't have to worry about anything. But I totally agree with the way he did it. There's a reason why we're one of the states that had the lowest like the COVID, what, the report of how many cases we have and all that. They said we dealt with it pretty good. I know we're spiking a little bit now, but it's not like Florida or the way New York City was. It could have been way worse, and I think because he did what he did that it's not like Florida. I know it's inconvenient and this and that, but you do what you have to do. I mean this is... How often do we deal with this? I really wish we had done that longer honestly. I wish we'd have done... I'm just being honest about that. I feel like we opened too soon. I think we went the whole business as usual too soon, and now, we're seeing a spike. It's totally going to affect the -- all school for everybody across the board and for the whole country. I feel like this is dragging out probably way more than it should. And to tell you the truth, Liz, I knew it was going to be like this. I knew back in like March when everybody thought I was being paranoid, I knew that it was coming, it was going to be bad, and that it was going to drag on because that's how we are in this country. Like Americans, we are so stubborn and so just dumb when it comes to this kind of stuff and -- LB: You think that that's like your most frustrating thing? That it's really frustrating that you go out and people aren't wearing masks or like that and --? CR: Yeah. I knew they were going to turn it into some kind of rights thing. Like, these people had come out and -- oh, it's disgusting and comparing it to -- it's making it like a civil rights issue. It's like, "What are you doing?" and, "Oh, like we have a right," or like a sign that I saw, My Body, My Choice. Like, no, you don't get to steal like the prochoice movement's stuff for your stupid, like I don't want to wear a mask campaign. I feel like this has really brought out -- this pandemic, a lot of people's true colors, like a lot of people's true color. Like you can see. And I think it's really sad. I feel like... You can just see the people are just out there just for themselves. Like, they're just showing that they just have no concern or care about anybody else but themselves, you know? LB: Mm-hmm. CR: And it's just so selfish what's going on right now. Like when people get sick and they're like, "Oh, that's my problem," whatever. I'm like, "No, any time anybody's sick now anymore, it's everybody's problem. That's the whole point." I mean you have to be careful. You have to like think about other people. You just can't go out there hacking away or whatever and thinking that people aren't going to think you're sick with COVID. Everything has changed. I feel like a lot of people don't want to accept the new normal. Like it sucks, it's not ideal, nobody wants to live like this right now, but unfortunately, it's reality, and the more we realize that, I feel like the quicker we'll get this over with. But I feel like they're just unnecessarily prolonging it being stubborn and going out with signs like, "Let me play golf, let me go get my haircut." (laughs) It's just so ridiculous. LB: (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) really, really being cut back. (laughs) I mean just play golf if you wear a mask because now like I want to be able to play golf and not wear a mask, you know? We're like, "Just for [heaven sakes?]," you know? CR: Yeah, yeah. It's like, whoa, I'm so glad you have your priorities straight, you know? (laughter) LB: No kidding. CR: I mean it's just like it's not for themselves especially for other people you're going to be around. It's like, do you want to see your parents or grandparents again? The more you do that, the more you have to isolate from your loved ones because then you can't be around them. You're like literally putting people in danger unnecessarily, and that's terrible. And I've heard left and right, stories about, oh, like older people passing away because they were around people they probably shouldn't have been around, and a lot of them are their close relatives. I really feel that people don't realize they're like killing their own relatives by doing -- not following these precautions. We have a responsibility to take care of the most vulnerable people in our society. You've got to be a little considerate. That's a big concern for me for people when kids go back to school. I think that's my biggest concern is kids coming -- basically coming back home and bringing this stuff -- even if they're not sick, if they don't have symptoms coming home and infecting their parents, grandparents. That's a big concern of mine. I mean kids are great, but honestly, I'm staying away from them this entire time. (laughs) I've really avoided them at all costs. I know that sounds terrible, but -- LB: [Like with their family?] -- CR: -- that's how I feel. LB: I mean everybody knows that. You take your kid to day care, they're going to get a cold. CR: Oh, yeah. LB: This is far more contagious than a cold or the flu, the regular flu. I know a person who's a pediatrician who was asked by some of her parents of the patients she has, "Well, can I take my kid to daycare?" She said, "Well, if you don't mind them getting it." Here's the thing ; I mean you think that they don't get a cold, they don't get every single infection, everything from the head lice (laughs) to infections to poison ivy, to -- well you name it, your kids are infected if it's in day care of if it's in school. That's why -- you know? CR: Yeah, I'm so glad I don't have to deal with that. I mean, you've got to love them, but it's like they're literally, little germ buckets walking around right now, and I just can't -- I can't deal with it literally. (laughs) I avoid them like anything right now but... I really, really feel for the parents that have to navigate that whole thing, their life with parenthood and the pandemic. That must be awful, especially the parents that I know, especially the single mom parents that don't have that option. Oh, you can't take them to daycare, they don't have school, what do you do with them? They have to go to work especially the ones -- like my one ex that works at a -- what is it, like a nursing home environment, that whole thing. She's the caretaker forever, and these people are constantly worried about bringing stuff home to their kids, you know? LB: Right. CR: And very, very... The best people I know, I know a lot of caretakers, a lot of therapists and everything, and they're all struggling with that. Most of the closest people I know are in health care, so of course, that was a big concern. That was a big worry having so many loved ones in health care like the women's clinic. I used to work at Allentown Women's Center for six years, all my best friends work there. Oh, that's been like a nightmare just worrying about them, and every time I talk to them, not being able to be close to them any time soon, like, "You guys, really be careful," and it's -- LB: Are they open? CR: -- and praying for them every day. Hmm? LB: Are they open? CR: Yeah. They've been open since the beginning. They're considered essentials, women's health. They do abortions, but they do like GYN health care. They've been -- LB: A lot of trans health -- CR: -- about forty years. LB: Yeah. CR: Yeah, now the past... It's been a few years now. They have a whole trans health initiative. I'm proud to say that I got them into -- I put them on the gay map, so to speak, in Lehigh Valley a long time ago back in... I was working -- started in 2005 till 2011 when Jenn Boulanger was there, and I got them to PrideFest, and I was translating a bunch of things in Spanish. I was in charge of -- the bilingual counselor there, I was in charge of the Spanish-speaking patients since we got them -- we started this whole LGBT initiative thing, and so, yeah, they've grown a lot. They've grown a lot in their services, but yeah, being at a doctor's office, like that's been really scary. All my best friends are there, and it's already bad enough with that kind of business. It's already a risky field to begin with. Like prior to the pandemic, it was -- when I was there, it was hard because of protestors, and you get threats. You get bomb threats, you get that kind of stuff all the time really, so they were already in danger even before this but then the pandemic comes rolling around, and then you have to worry about your friends getting sick. That's been stressful. So I always check in with them all the time about that because, yeah, I'd be devastated if anything happened to any of my girls there. Yeah, because those are the best women I know ever, and we've been through a lot together, so... Like I said, this really makes you think what's important and you end up -- I don't know if you've done it, but I know especially in the beginning, you got used to quarantine and everything, I was reconnecting with people I hadn't talked to for a while -- LB: Yeah, absolutely. CR: -- you know? Yeah, and you wonder like, who's going to survive this, who's not going to survive this. In the long run when it's all over, like who's going to be left? I started thinking about stuff like that. LB: We're still in the beginning of it too. CR: Huh? LB: We're just at the beginning of it too. We don't even know what's going to happen. I mean if people are looking at this video of you talking thirty years from now, they know what happened. They may not know what the individual experiences for people would be, but they know what's going to happen with regard to this and how it's going to change the world, and we don't. And people who think that this is going to be back to normal, I mean we had employees at the center or other people that we're working with us would say, "Well, you know in September..." Actually, somebody just asked me to do a training in September, I said, "Well, I can't --" What I said was, "If I can absolutely guarantee that a person at risk won't be at -- there won't be any risk for someone who has high risk there, yes, I'll do it in person." Well, I know that's not going to happen, so there's no way that that's going to happen. Nobody can foresee that. Unless they came out with a vaccine tomorrow that eradicated the entire thing, well, that's going to happen, you know? CR: Right. LB: It's just not, so anyway. What's giving you hope? I mean, what's the best thing that's happened out of this, or what's really giving you hope, or generally, what gives you hope? CR: I think the biggest thing that's kept me together like mentally, emotionally, everything is probably I'm really grateful for my spirituality honestly. And I did this prior to all this happening. I pray and meditate every single day, so I'm very grateful for that. I've been attending church online, visiting several actually in the area, the Gregory Edwards Church and mine. My spirituality, I feel like, and the program recovery, it's given so much comfort so that that's helped a lot. I feel very blessed and lucky to have that and also my support system. I think is really important for people to have that support system and a Zoom account (laughs) to really connect with people because it is -- I feel bad for anyone that doesn't have that connection via... Like if they don't have good internet or a laptop or whatever, I really feel for them because that's like the lifeline for most people to the outside world. The support system I have that I've made for myself from people from school, from church, from other like mental health professionals. Honestly, I feel that we're all going to have -- I think we're feeling the effects of it already especially from quarantine, and I've talked about this with them. I think we're all going to have some form of PTSD from this thing, you know? And I feel like everyone can benefit from some kind of professional help when this is all over or even more like during because it's a lot. It's a lot especially for people like me that are... Well, I'm kind of an ambivert I guess. I can do both like still stay at home and be introvert and extro-- but I am mostly extroverted. The quarantine, that's probably the biggest thing like being out there and hanging out with people and being around people and hugging, and just the whole very people person and [there be?] -- LB: Are you using any dating apps or any queer dating apps or anything? CR: (laughs) Yeah, Tinder is probably not the best -- LB: (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) CR: (laughs) Yeah. Yeah, I feel like you have to be really, really careful. Shoot, I haven't done like online dating app or anything for years. Fortunately being involved, I think being involved in so many circles really improves your chances of dating. But luckily, even after the break, I'm thinking, oh, cool, so dating is not going to happen any time soon. But fortunately, somebody from my recovery group -- we were friends before, we're kind of seeing each other now. So I guess I'm like in a rebound relationship now you can say, so I got lucky with that. And we've kind of screened each other like physically and everything. She works by herself, a caseworker, so it's worked out. It's really worked out that we were able to like get together and know that we're safe because we're -- we've been isolating. (laughs) So I got lucky with that. But, yeah, I know that's not usually the case with most people, and I really hope that people aren't doing that too much. And if they are, I don't really know how you could do that safely at this point and not consider like -- LB: That's why they say -- CR: -- the people (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) -- huh? LB: -- right now, you're your own best friend. CR: Yeah, yeah. (laughs) Absolutely. Yeah, you have to be safe like that especially these days. LB: Sex during corona, you're your own best friend is the -- CR: Seriously, yeah, because it's like -- because in the end -- that's all the things I considered. Like in the end, I'm thinking, is it really worth hooking up with someone right now and then taking that home to your relatives? LB: Yeah, (inaudible). CR: Is it really worth it in the long run? I'm like, nope. So, yeah, it's tough. If somebody wasn't partnered before this went down, this is like -- then it's been -- I know it's been tough for people. I got lucky, but I know like that's -- it is what it is though. Huh? LB: I think people who are living alone, completely alone, it's very, very hard for them. CR: Sure. LB: It's an off thing. I say that to Trish every day. I say, "We're so lucky that we get to be here. We're also so lucky that we have a big enough house that we don't have to be in the same room every day," you know? CR: Right, right, right. (laughs) Definitely, oh, my gosh, and I think that was a big thing too I heard was -- I forgot what country it was. That definitely the corona has gone down and it's going back to normal, and divorce rates are up because people just got so sick of each other, you know? LB: Well -- CR: I could see that. LB: -- a lot of people are looking at their smaller apartments, like people who lived in New York City that were very in small -- like the lodge that I just sleep there, are really looking at different kinds of living arrangements. I don't know if I can ever -- maybe I can never imagine. What if I get stuck doing this again? I have to move to the suburbs, or I have to have more of a communal living situation where a group of people are living together so that they don't have to be alone. They said that like every pet in the -- all the dogs and cats that were in, the strays, everybody adopted them because -- in all the places because people didn't want to not have anything to hug. And I think it was a big deal. I think a big deal. So we're pretty much at the end of this. I wanted to just ask you in the future, we hope that somebody -- well, I think people will look at these. These are very interesting artifacts because comparing this to the flu that happened a hundred years ago, a hundred and two years ago, the flu epidemic of 1918, they didn't have social media then. On the other hand, they didn't really know how dangerous it was, and that's why so many more people died. I mean fifty million people died in that flu epidemic and for a lot of -- one of the reasons is that people weren't sharing information. They weren't telling each other really how they were communicating and how they had to do distance and stuff. You weren't allowed to talk about that really. I think for a lot of us who are concerned about other people, the biggest frustration is elected officials who are leaders who were saying to people, "Well, so what if people die? Go ahead and open. It's only fourteen thousand children that are going to die," that kind of stuff. So that makes us all nuts but.. And it's ridiculous because there's no finite number. We have no idea what this is going to do, and we also know that there has been indication that people -- scientists have said if every single person in the United States wore a mask for three months, this would be over. CR: Mm-hmm, yeah. LB: Right? CR: Yeah. LB: Literally, it would end it. It would end the thing. But people won't wear their masks ; it's crazy. But anyway, what I wanted to ask you is people would be looking at this, so now you're talking to the future and you're going to tell them. Tell them one -- a couple of phrases about sort of what's happening and what you hope is going to happen and to just communicate the feeling of -- like your feelings about how things are now and maybe some hope and what you'll hope it's going to turn out to be and that kind of stuff. What would you say to them? CR: Well, to kind of piggyback on what you just said, I realized that when it first started, like everything shutting down in mid-March or whatever, in some countries, this was already winding down in some places. I think already in China, like it was already winding down, and it wasn't really a long time overall when you look at it because they were really strict with themselves about that. Unfortunately, I don't think that's going to happen here any time soon. I wouldn't be surprised at all if it's not already the country where it lasts the longest because of so many people fighting it. They wouldn't even put up with that in other countries. They haven't as far as I know like the protesting about wearing masks and all that. Yeah, I feel that this has really, like I said, been an opportunity to really -- to unite and just fight this together and just follow what we're supposed to do. But honestly, I feel that it has divided us as well unfortunately, and I can't say that I'm surprised by that. It's really disappointing. That combined with other things that we already had here that we're dealing with. Don't even get me started on our so-called leadership of the country. I think that's a huge, huge part. They have not set a good example in how to deal with this crisis, and I feel that it says a lot. Like whatever the leaders are doing, they're leading by example or they're supposed to be, people are going to follow that. And I've literally heard, I'm sure you did too, on the news, I literally heard people saying like on the beach, "Well, the president doesn't wear a mask, why should I?" That says a lot, and I feel like things would have been one hundred percent completely different if we had somebody else there who would have spotted this a long time ago. It should have been taken care of like the end of last year honestly. If that would have happened, things would have been totally different. So I feel like we were not prepared for this at all, but we should have seen this coming a mile away. Unfortunately, we haven't, we didn't, and this is the result of that but I'm hoping that... And I think sadly, it's going to take another serious wave for it to really kick in, for a lot of people to really realize it especially the people that are still saying, I don't know why, that it's -- I don't know where they're getting this information from, that it's a hoax. People have been dying and getting sick. I feel like they're the ones that need to get sick or have someone around them to really understand. I don't wish this on anybody, but it's like, what is it going to take, you know? LB: Right. CR: So it's been really scary. And it's almost like you have to walk on eggshells and have this constant stress over you all the time. Like, am I going to get it? Am I going to bring this home today? It's like we shouldn't have to live like that, and it doesn't have to be like that. But hopefully, we'll get through it, and a lot of lessons I'm hoping we'll learn to be better prepared, hopefully to have better leadership in the figure. We do have an election -- a big election coming up, so I hope that's reflected in the upcoming elections. If it's not, then it's like, have we really learned anything? So I think there are so many lessons to be learned with the pandemic on a very, very personal level, on a level like your community. It takes a village, you know?LB: Yeah. CR: National level, international level. I mean so many lessons. You need to take this opportunity to really reflect on so many things and not act like it's business as usual because it's not, and it's not going to be for a long time. LB: Yeah. You spent a lot of time in Europe or you were in Europe last year for three and a half months, and I'm sure you have friends in other countries too that -- have you been communicating with those people in other countries about what that -- their experiences were, or was it mostly students that were from here that you were around? CR: Mostly students, but that's a good question. I did make some friends over there mostly from the university. I was -- actually became good friends with my professors that I ended up hanging out with early -- like we hang out with them and fellow artists over there that I worked with. It's a shame ; I haven't gotten in touch with them. I should even if it's just via WhatsApp or whatever. That's been a great source of -- for communication. Yeah, I'm going to check up on them with that because I know Spain was in a major lockdown, major lockdown, but they seem to have done pretty well with it as well. That's what I noticed. The ones that had that most strict lockdown, quarantine procedures are the ones that came out better off in the long run, you know? I really wish we could have done that here. I knew we wouldn't be able to, I just -- I knew. There would just be too much of a hassle, too much ruckus with all these crazy groups going out there on the steps of city hall with -- or wherever it was with their guns and what -- it's so ridiculous. I'm just -- I can't -- you know like -- yeah. I think that's just really dragging it out, and we'll eventually learn the hard way, so... LB: Yeah. Well, this has been a great interview. I really, really appreciate you taking your time to do this with me today, and -- CR: Thank you. LB: -- I appreciate it very much. You do get that thirty day -- we'll try to get the transcript. This goes to a college, a transcripts groups that they transcribe this into writing so that you can look at it then you have some time to look at it and stuff. I can't imagine that you would want to take anything out. Everything you said was brilliant -- CR: Thank you. LB: -- needless to say. And let me give my best wishes to your mom and take care of yourself, and I really appreciate all of that. and I appreciate all the stuff you've done over the many, many years that you've done. I think we've known each other for at least twenty-five years. CR: Oh gosh, yeah, yeah. LB: So yeah, and you've always been there working on this stuff and always very, very vocal and very... And one of the things I was thinking about because I have the same quality as you, is artists are never bored. You always have something. CR: (laughs) Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. LB: Especially since we have the internet where we can show our art on the internet. So it's like, -- CR: Oh yeah. LB: -- well, nobody can see the work I'm doing. You can -- CR: Yeah. LB: You work all the time, and maybe in some way, kind of cool that you get the time to just work and work. I've made two paintings yesterday, so I really do understand it. CR: Excellent, yeah. LB: Thank you very much. I'm going to stop the recording here. CR: Sure. LB: Thanks -- CR: Okay, yeah, no -- END OF VIDEO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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01:12:30
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Cynthia Rodriguez, July 20, 2020 (Part 1)
Description
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Cynthia Rodriguez talks about how the current COVID-19 pandemic is affecting her, her friends and family, her experience as a full time student and her work as an artist and musician. She also talks about prayer and meditation and civil rights activism including Black Lives Matter.
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PH40_31a
Subject
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
Date
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2020-07-20
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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https://lgbt.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/b83ed7b2ae3c028fdb360599268d8839.png
262d749c57495783af37b5965947bb43
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
An account of the resource
In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Liz Bradbury
Interviewee
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Cynthia Rodriguez
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_31b.xml
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5.4 July 20, 2020 Cynthia Rodriguez, July 20, 2020 (Part 2) PH40_31b 00:02:04 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Cynthia Rodriguez Liz Bradbury video/mpeg RodriguezCynthia_2020072020_video.mp4 1:|23(5)|48(16) 0 https://youtu.be/sZiVWpfGEt0 YouTube video 5 Using Zoom for creative and business ventures CR: Okay. So I’ve learned to get really creative on Zoom from the beginning of the pandemic. Actually also, I wrote a few song parodies regarding the pandemic that I would perform on Facebook Live. 0 MovingImage Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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00:02:04
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Cynthia Rodriguez, July 20, 2020 (Part 2)
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PH40_31b
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
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2020-07-20
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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https://lgbt.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/621d3cca833662553752535278cb5854.png
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
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In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Kristen Leipert
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Gabby Hochfeld
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_03.xml
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5.4 July 29, 2020 Gabby Hochfeld, July 29, 2020 PH40_03 00:48:24 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Gabby Hochfeld Kristen Leipert video/mpeg HochfeldGabby_20200729_video.mp4 1.0:|19(8)|48(14)|73(12)|92(17)|111(7)|136(14)|159(15)|186(6)|205(15)|228(7)|251(6)|274(4)|293(11)|314(10)|335(13)|356(14)|381(10)|404(12)|429(11)|448(7)|473(14)|494(7)|517(3)|532(20)|557(13)|582(5)|603(6)|624(12)|645(5)|672(4)|689(10)|712(13)|735(9)|756(2)|779(5)|798(14)|817(2)|836(13)|857(3)|878(9)|903(12)|924(6)|947(7)|970(15)|995(9)|1018(7)|1039(12)|1082(7)|1099(5) 0 https://youtu.be/agof1WtrGxk YouTube video 0 Interview Introduction KRISTEN LEIPERT: My name is Kristen Leipert, and I am here with Gabby Hochfield to talk about her experience in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of the COVID-19 pandemic, as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive. Our project has funding from the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, and we are meeting on Zoom on July 29th, 2020. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start, can you please state your full name and spell it for me?
 ; 
 ; GABBY HOCHFELD: Like legal first name and everything? Okay. Gabrielle Sarah Hochfield. G-A-B-R-I-E-L-L-E. Sarah, S-A-R-A-H. Hochfield, H-O-C-H-F-E-L-D. (laughs)
 ; 0 156 TRIGGER WARNING: Pandemic affecting work life, family life, and mental health GH: Okay. I’ll start with work, because I think that the pandemic quarantine situation started out affecting work, which in turn affected my family life. So, we moved at Bradbury-Sullivan to remote work, and before I lived an hour away from where I worked. I lived in the Poconos, in Monroe County. And I lived with my mom and my sister and my brother. And I barely saw them because I was constantly traveling for work. My job forced me to go to all of southeastern PA, minus Philly. So I’d very often have to drive to like Westchester. 0 470 Working as Bradbury-Sullivan Center's Southeastern Pennsylvania Health Outreach Coordinator during the pandemic GH: So I wasn’t really scared to lose my job, but I was like, how is this going to work? But mainly just telling gay people, stop smoking, stop vaping, please, thank you. Because it hurts us all. 
 ; 
 ; KL: Yeah. And have you been doing any of that work over Zoom? I mean, outreach with people.
 ; 
 ; GH: Yeah. So, stuff that I've been doing that was able to stay the same pretty much was worksite policy implementation. 0 634 Living with roommates/More on mental health GH: Yeah. I do have two roommates who are also Lehigh students. I’m not a Lehigh student, but they’re Lehigh students that are international students that were able to stay. I don’t really talk to them too much. We had a couple board game nights, but it kind of just was like, eh, we don’t really have a lot in common, okay. 
 ; 0 765 Realizations caused by the pandemic GH: There’s definitely some upsides. Before I was travelling way, way too much. I felt like I was a rocket ship and I didn’t have time to think about anything I was doing. I was just doing, doing, doing. And I feel like now I can kind of take a step back and sort of reflect on, again, even though my family situation was bad, I realized that I was not being respected and it made me realize what standard I set for the people in my life and I don’t. 0 1136 Interviewing in solidarity with domestic abuse survivors/Shaving head during pandemic GH: [...] But I just feel like, I hope that people that are going through domestic abuse situations come forward about this stuff. Because I feel like a lot of people feel very stuck, especially kids, during this time. I feel so bad for little kiddies that just are in a really, really abusive household situation. 0 1297 Identifying as queer/Thoughts on dating during the pandemic GH: [...] But I don’t know ; it’s also kind of awkward because I had a successful date with somebody that I knew this past weekend, and we hugged, but I was like, I guess I need to be serious or at least make sure that I want to be involved with this person because now we might be spreading germs, so that’s kind of similar to how -- not at all, well, I don’t know. It’s similar to HIV in that way. 0 1580 Thoughts on school openings GH: Yeah, it’s just not well thought out. What happens if one of the students gets COVID? What happens if the teacher gets COVID? I feel like they’re just like, "Well, we have to do this because if we don’t, then we lose money or we lose this.” And also obviously school is really important to continue and social -- homeschooled kids are very obvious to the -- you know who those are, versus a public school kid or whatever. But I mean, it’ll be fine. If we’re all homeschooled, then that’s the new norm. 0 1765 Thoughts on pandemic quarantine GH: It’s just so strange that we couldn’t -- if the answer truly was stay put for two weeks, I guess we can’t do that because there’s people that literally think this is a hoax, but I don’t know. Martial law is not -- if I was the president or dictator at this point, I would be like, “Okay, martial law. Two weeks. Get your groceries. You have a week to get your groceries and stuff, and then do not leave your property.”
 ; 0 1869 Randonauting during the pandemic GH: [...] But I need to be more active. I’ve been doing this thing called Randonauting, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of it.
 ; 
 ; KL: No, I don’t know what that is.
 ; 
 ; GH: It’s an app where they randomly generate a point on a map, given a parameter, and you’re supposed to “manifest” -- I don’t really like the idea of manifesting because I think it’s a little bit a crock of bullshit, because just because you think good things doesn’t mean good things will happen to you. 0 2040 Spending pandemic quarantine in a safe/creative way GH: I feel like a lot of people -- not me, because I don’t like alcohol that much -- but I feel like a lot of people are concerning me with their alcohol consumption. Like, I’ll call them and they’ll be like, “Oh yeah, I’m just drinking.” And like, again? 0 2189 Thoughts on Black Lives Matter/Thoughts on activism GH: [...] I’ve been very passionate about showing up and helping as much as I can. Sometimes it just conflicts with my schedule, but I recently went to the -- I don’t know if you heard about Palmerton’s protest a couple weeks ago. It’s a town over from where I used to live, and my good friends were the organizers. And it went very poorly. 
 ; 0 2713 Conclusion GH: Yup. Thank you for doing this. It’s really cool. I’m excited to see what the product of it is, and yeah. I think this is going to be -- it’s cool to be part of a history thing.
 ; 
 ; KL: Yeah, I mean thank you so much for your time. 
 ; 
 ; GH: Absolutely.
 ; 0 MovingImage Gabby Hochfeld discusses her life experiences during the COVID-19 pandemic including the ways in which it has effected her mental health, work life, and social interactions. Gabby Hochfeld2020-07-29 KRISTEN LEIPERT: Okay, we are now recording. Uh-oh, I'm going to do Liz's trick of also recording audio on my phone if I can find it. Nope, not that. Not this. And okay, great. Okay. My name is Kristen Leipert, and I am here with Gabby Hochfield to talk about her experience in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of the COVID-19 pandemic, as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive. Our project has funding from the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, and we are meeting on Zoom on July 29th, 2020. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start, can you please state your full name and spell it for me? GABBY HOCHFELD: Like legal first name and everything? Okay. Gabrielle Sarah Hochfield. G-A-B-R-I-E-L-L-E. Sarah, S-A-R-A-H. Hochfield, H-O-C-H-F-E-L-D. (laughs) KL: Thank you. Will you please share your birthdate? GH: My birthday? KL: Mm-hmm, birthdate. GH: June 25th, 1997. KL: Oh, happy a little bit after your birthday. Okay, so this is the consent portion. So you just need to answer these questions. Do you consent to this interview today? GH: I do, yes. KL: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable format? GH: Yes. KL: Do you consent to the LGBT archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats including films, articles, websites, presentations, and other formats? GH: Yes. KL: Do you understand that you will have thirty days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview, identify any parts you would like to delete, and or withdraw our interview from the project? GH: Yes. KL: Okay. This project has been approved by Muhlenberg College's institutional review board, and if you have any questions I can give you the email address of the person you can contact to ask questions to. So, how has the COVID-19 pandemic affected your life? And this could be your work life, personal life, social life, all the things. Anything. Go for it. GH: Okay. I'll start with work, because I think that the pandemic quarantine situation started out affecting work, which in turn affected my family life. So, we moved at Bradbury-Sullivan to remote work, and before I lived an hour away from where I worked. I lived in the Poconos, in Monroe County. And I lived with my mom and my sister and my brother. And I barely saw them because I was constantly traveling for work. My job forced me to go to all of southeastern PA, minus Philly. So I'd very often have to drive to like Westchester. Like we'd go to work, then go to Westchester, then come back to work, and then go home. So lots of driving, and when the quarantine happened, there was no out-of-county travelling supposed to be happening, so I had to stay in Monroe County. So I was constantly around my family because of this. And my little brother likes to game, and internet was really bad so I was blamed for a lot of it because I had a lot of Zoom meetings instead of in-person meetings, and it created a lot of tension. And something that I think a lot of people talk about is how this quarantine, this pandemic really exposes all the problems that already exist just even more. And my father is an actual diagnosable narcissist, and my counselor likes to say that having a relationship with a narcissist is a relationship of inevitable harm. And when you have a family dynamic underneath a narcissist, there's trauma bondage relationships. There's like all this psychological craziness, and it just came out. And I'm the only one in my family that's currently going to counselling. I've been going for like four years. I've had a couple different counselors, because moving and stuff like that. But this was the first time I've been counselled and realized there's a lot of stuff that I needed to figure out. And this quarantine really kind of pushed it to the forefront and kind of felt like I was scapegoated a bit. And I had to end up living with a friend for a little bit, which was really stressful because that took a while. Because I was afraid to go out of the house, really. So for three months I felt like my mental health was so bad. I don't know how, whatever, as long as my name is anonymous, I guess, but I did have suicidal thoughts during quarantine, and that's when I realized I really needed to leave my situation. And I was trying to do my part in the community by staying put and keeping to myself, but I couldn't. So I had to leave. And then I found an apartment where I currently am at, and it's a sublease from a Lehigh student, which wouldn't exist unless all the international students didn't have to go back home. So the person I'm subleasing from is from Vietnam, and they had to go back and they can't come back until January. So very fortunate situation for me, but not so much for them. So yeah, it affected my life in every way possible. Some ways it's a blessing in disguise, because it made me realize that a lot of my insecurities come from how I'm treated, not how I perceive myself. We don't come out of the womb and immediately start hating ourselves. I don't think that makes any sense, so yeah I just think that everyone's mental health seems like through the roof bad right now. And it just made mine all the much more worse, but also forced me to make me more serious about it in general. And work has been good, though. I mean, very supported through work, but that's not something I can say for everybody. Most of my close friends, they've been laid off more than once because they're laid off initially then they were back, and then they just got laid off again, or they don't have good COVID policies. One of my friends works for the zoo, and she feels like it's not really safe to work there because of the people that come in and they don't really wear masks and stuff. So I'm very, very thankful for where I work, and them taking this seriously. And even making a committee to figure out what the best way to reopen is. So yeah, I don't know if that was too much, but yeah. KL: No, that's great. So, when you talk about work, I know where you work, but would you like to say what you do there? GH: Yeah. So my job title's another mouthful. My name's a mouthful and this is a mouthful. But I'm the Southeastern Pennsylvania Health Outreach Coordinator, which most of my job has to do with tobacco prevention and education, because it's the number one health disparity in the LGBT community, fun fact. And we had to take the name tobacco out of my job title because a lot of people don't like that word, for some reason, especially schools. So it's easier for me to get into schools and educate LGBT clubs, like GSAs and stuff like that. I also used to do bar outreach before the quarantine. I would go and bring goodie bags of tobacco prevention information and I'd hand them out to people at bars. That's not happening anymore. Pretty much my whole position had to change. I am grant funded by basically, inadvertently or indirectly, the Department of Health. So I wasn't really scared to lose my job, but I was like, how is this going to work? But mainly just telling gay people, stop smoking, stop vaping, please, thank you. Because it hurts us all. KL: Yeah. And have you been doing any of that work over Zoom? I mean, outreach with people. GH: Yeah. So, stuff that I've been doing that was able to stay the same pretty much was worksite policy implementation. We're trying to get a bunch of LGBT-run, owned, or allied businesses to update or have a new tobacco policy. A lot of them are smoke-free policies, which don't include things that are still bad for their employees. Or they might not even include vaping, which is more common for younger people, I guess, nowadays. So, that was able to stay. Because it could just be done over email or phone call, and then we promote them on our social media. I used to do -- right now it's the summer, so I'm not working at schools really. But we would do after school club stuff over Zoom. Yeah, it's been kind of slow, honestly, but still just doing what I can. Most of it is social media and Zoom-based though. KL: Good. So, right now you are living in Bethlehem? I'm only assuming Bethlehem. GH: Yeah, I live in Bethlehem. I'm on south side, walking distance to Tally Ho's. (laughs) KL: Are you alone right now? GH: Yeah. I do have two roommates who are also Lehigh students. I'm not a Lehigh student, but they're Lehigh students that are international students that were able to stay. I don't really talk to them too much. We had a couple board game nights, but it kind of just was like, eh, we don't really have a lot in common, okay. KL: Well, at least you get some people time. I guess. I don't know. GH: It feels like I'm alone, which sucks. But I am like that friend that will give a phone call to my friends when I'm bored so I still keep in touch and I try not to feel alone even though it is lonely. But yeah. Again, mental health terrible for everybody. So at least if I'm feeling alone, I'm feeling alone in solidarity with everybody. KL: Oh my God. So you've mentioned mental health. So you're making sure you're doing well. GH: I'm okay now. I [shouldn't?] have talked about that. I'm okay. Just, when I was at my worst, that was like a wakeup call to me because I was like, I've never let that way and that's not okay. And if I was somebody else -- I've had a friend from high school who constantly was like, not good, and it was a worry all the time about whether they were going to be alive or not. So I was trying to think of myself as my best friend. What would I do if I heard this from my friend? And I was like, I've got to make sure I'm okay. So I'm good. I wasn't good, but now I am. KL: That's great. So has there been anything that's like a positive outcome of this, or things that keep you occupied, how you're making yourself -- I was going to say happy. Sane? (laughs) Satisfied? I don't know. At a calm level. GH: There's definitely some upsides. Before I was travelling way, way too much. I felt like I was a rocket ship and I didn't have time to think about anything I was doing. I was just doing, doing, doing. And I feel like now I can kind of take a step back and sort of reflect on, again, even though my family situation was bad, I realized that I was not being respected and it made me realize what standard I set for the people in my life and I don't. So in that way it was good. I also learned about meditating and stuff, and I think that's really important. I'm into astrology and I read cards, and I like crystals, so I'm still like, COVID's a real thing. Science is real. And my stuff is probably BS, but it's really fun because it's cathartic. And I also feel like I'm able to read for joy more. I feel like I'm not wasting a lot of gas anymore. I think that having a more calm life is really, really good for me. And I think for a lot of people, who have been just -- I don't know, we all live under capitalism, and capitalism makes us feel like we need to constantly be doing and constantly be working. And everyone asks, "What's your dream job?" Why is that the thing that we need to dream about? Can't we dream about the relationships we have and not necessarily romance, but just what is actually important at the end of the day is not what job we have. Unless you make it important and for me it is important. But it's not because I'm making money. It's not because of any of those reasons. I think that we're kind of learning how the world works in a way that treats humans better. But again, this isn't something that's sustainable for everyone. If you were working three jobs before, and you were like a waitress and you have kids and your rent is too much, that's not something that really works for everybody. So I'm definitely in a place of privilege where I can say, "Yeah, I'm chilling," because of this, but other people are like, it's every day. Just terrible stuff, and I was very, very privileged to be able to walk away from a bad situation. Some people are stuck in domestic abuse situations, and that's definitely not a positive. But for me it was absolutely a positive, just didn't realize it when it was happening. But yeah. And it also kind of, I still work forty hours a week, but I don't work on the weekends anymore. And I kind of have flexibility. We have core hours during our workdays and I can do my personal flex hours, if I want, after dinner. Or really early, so I can have an early day. And that's really helpful for moms and parents in general who, that works really well for after the kid's asleep, they can do their work or whatever. So yeah, I think that there's definitely a lot of good stuff with this. KL: Yeah, and not that this is about me, but there is something nice about -- I have two children -- so it's been nice to be like, "All right, it's ten o'clock in the morning, let's go for a walk." You know? And then we can all reset our morning and then I can get back and I can be like, "Okay, go play video games so I can work for the rest of the day." And not feel too guilty. (laughs) That they're just screen time all day. Because I've just had to make peace with that. But yeah I'm like, we can go for a ten o'clock walk in the morning can go play outside at three. And then I can go back to work and just get it done before dinner. GH: Yeah. I will say, (inaudible) didn't remember to talk about that, but I do feel like I'm constantly in front of a screen, which is not good. And humans are social creatures, so it's tough to like -- so I'm absolutely a thousand percent, wear a mask. But it is tough to kind of just see this [covers lower half of face with hand] because I'll smile at somebody in public and they won't realize I'm smiling. So there's a lot of stuff that kind of feels a little bit inhuman about this. But it's for the best. Hopefully we can figure out how to get out of this. KL: I know. GH: I feel like this is going to be a lot longer than any of us will think it is. Mainly because we don't want to do that two-week strict quarantine, but -- KL: No, so stressful. GH: Also I think there was a study that was done that said that only half of the population that was surveyed about whether they get a vaccine or not would actually get a vaccine, so even if we do develop a vaccine, will it be taken seriously? That's tough. That's a personal thing ; that's just me kind of talking, so I hope that's usable. I don't know if it is. KL: I mean, it is. That's the thing, right? If someone in 30 years, who's going to know what happens, what the outcome of this is, can look back on it and be like, "Oh, that's what it was like to be living in it." Everyone has a story, and they all say something. You know? GH: Yeah. So the reason why I wanted to do this -- and I'm sorry I forgot about it for a while -- but I really think that my story is an important one, because -- and I am queer, but my family is just, that's not even something I can even talk about really. But I just feel like, I hope that people that are going through domestic abuse situations come forward about this stuff. Because I feel like a lot of people feel very stuck, especially kids, during this time. I feel so bad for little kiddies that just are in a really, really abusive household situation. Yeah, and I hope that this is something that resonates with people, because it was bad. (laughs) Yeah. And I shaved my head, too, because (laughs) I had a whole, full-blown identity crisis. And what's a better time to shave your head than in a pandemic where you're all inside all day? So check that off my bucket list, move on. KL: Perfect. I did think, "I should've colored my hair at the beginning of this." GH: You have such fun hair. You have like -- KL: I've got little nubbies. I call them my nubbies. Again, because I'm like, "Oh, now my hair's too long and I'm done with it." I've just gone like this and I just don't even care. (laughs) So you've shaved your head. That's awesome. GH: (inaudible) Grown out. I used to have a pixie cut, so it wasn't like anything crazy. But it was crazy for me. I just did it because I tried to give myself a haircut and then I was like, "I want a side shave." And then I did that and it didn't look good and I was like, "Okay, well I guess it's not salvageable, so you've got to shave it." And then I was like crying while I was doing it, but I was also like, "But this is so satisfying." So yeah. And there's some theories about how trauma lives in the hair, so maybe that was a symbolic sort of cleanse. I don't know, but yeah. Everyone kept calling me brave when I shaved it. I was like, "It's not brave. I kind of just have to deal with it." And I bought a wig but it looked terrible, so I was trying not to be brave. Yeah. It's kind of growing now. We're getting there, I don't know. KL: I like it. I know. Okay. So, you identify as queer. GH: Mm-hmm. Yeah, just generally queer. Yeah. I don't really care too -- I guess the closest -- I used to care about the label, because it's helpful to sort of have something to understand and feel connected with people on. Like, are other people experiencing this? And I was resonating with pansexual before. And then I was just like but I don't really know and I don't really care. And so I kind of just say queer or gay. I don't know ; I don't really care. Yeah. Yeah. KL: Is there anything else you want to talk about before I start asking you about obnoxious things like virtual Pride? GH: I don't know. KL: I'm sure you're all in on that. GH: I actually feel like something else that changed is dating during a pandemic. I'm [inherently?] single. I'm not mad about it, but I did try to go back on Bumble and stuff. And I did go on a virtual Zoom date and it was terrible. And because it was boring. And yeah, I feel like it's already hard enough to date when you're queer because everyone's dating everybody. I feel like the gay community is like band kids. Like all the band kids would date each other and it was just like, "What are they doing?" So it's a challenge, because everyone I know that's gay is already an ex of my friend or something. I'm just like, okay. But I don't know ; it's also kind of awkward because I had a successful date with somebody that I knew this past weekend, and we hugged, but I was like, I guess I need to be serious or at least make sure that I want to be involved with this person because now we might be spreading germs, so that's kind of similar to how -- not at all, well, I don't know. It's similar to HIV in that way. Except this affects everybody, so now I guess the straight community has to deal with like, oh, where has their mouth been? Where has their butthole or whatever been? Like, I don't know. So I think that there should be more said about dating in a pandemic. Obviously I think that the right answer is just keep your partners to a minimum because you don't want to spread shit, but is that really feasible? Are people going to listen to that? Obviously not because -- not that I'm saying that they shouldn't, I think that they should -- but it's kind of like telling people just not to have sex until they're married. That's not going to happen for most people. So yeah, I don't know if that's relevant, but [I want it to be?]. KL: No, it totally is. And some of the AIDS interviews that Liz has done -- so many people say the same thing, you know? They were active at the time, during the AIDS crisis, they were in their 20s and they were active in talking about safer sex with people and handing out condoms, and then totally being promiscuous on their own and taking none of their own advice and talking about how they did one thing and said a different thing. So I think it's similar, how you can say something and think, "Okay." Even going to the grocery store or whatever, when you're like, "Okay, I'll stand six feet apart from people." But then you're just walking past them because they're in your way. You just got to go. There's something that's human in how you're not used to being far apart from people, no matter what. And I don't know. Like in dating yeah. I mean, how can you just be like, "What's up? It's nice to meet you." And then just -- how do you end that conversation without like, a hug or something? GH: I just think about how colleges are reopening, and I was gross in college. Like, one of my best friends and I did a make out competition and we had -- first of all, everything was consensual. We had to ask to kiss somebody, whatever. But I made out with twelve people in the course of two weeks. We can't do that right now! We can't do that. That's gross! And also Moravian College just had the mumps outbreak before COVID, so I mean, it's just a lot to think about here. And everyone's just like, "Nope, we've got to keep on going because the economy." And I was just, "You can't have an economy if you lose a lot of people." And just because it says 1% doesn't mean that's a small number. Obviously comparatively, yeah, that's small. However, 1% of a million is a lot still. And I feel like teachers should be a little bit uncomfortable with reopening if like, "Well, only one percent of your students might die." You shouldn't want that. Anyways, rant over with that. I don't know. KL: I know. Well, that's all my feelings right now. And again, this isn't about me. But I'm on this college end of it, so I'm seeing how that college planning is going, and then I've got these kids in elementary school and I'm like, "I don't want them to go back to school," only because I hear all these faculty members -- they're not teaching in class. They don't want to be with students in class, and yeah, college kids are gross. But you know who else is gross? Fourth graders. You know? So it's like, how is -- yeah. Yeah. GH: Yeah, it's just not well thought out. What happens if one of the students gets COVID? What happens if the teacher gets COVID? I feel like they're just like, "Well, we have to do this because if we don't, then we lose money or we lose this." And also obviously school is really important to continue and social -- homeschooled kids are very obvious to the -- you know who those are, versus a public school kid or whatever. But I mean, it'll be fine. If we're all homeschooled, then that's the new norm. I don't know. KL: Yeah. Well I know. Some kids need to go to school because they need to learn how to be social with other kids. And I'm like, "Okay, my kids are super social so they don't need that part," so I feel like keeping them home for a year. They're going to be fine. I mean, they might not like it because they love other people, but hey, who likes it? I don't like it. I miss everyone I work with, I miss my friends, you know. GH: It's just so strange that we couldn't -- if the answer truly was stay put for two weeks, I guess we can't do that because there's people that literally think this is a hoax, but I don't know. Martial law is not -- if I was the president or dictator at this point, I would be like, "Okay, martial law. Two weeks. Get your groceries. You have a week to get your groceries and stuff, and then do not leave your property." KL: Yeah, lock everyone in. GH: I would be hated, but I would've saved the whole world. (laughs) KL: Everyone just do your thing. Binge TV shows for a week, a couple weeks, you're good. Eat and binge TV shows. Work out if you want to. GH: Yeah, and so I feel like a lot of cities aren't necessarily having issues. I feel like it's more left in cities, but where I'm from, there's Trump signs everywhere and everyone has a lot of property. So you don't even have to keep it inside. Just go outside and chill. I don't know. But yeah. What was the next question you had? KL: Oh my gosh. I don't -- it's whatever you want to talk about. I've got social life and personal pursuits, some categories. I have mental and physical health. We talked about dating. GH: Physical health, I guess physical health -- [dings] sorry. I had a gym membership before the quarantine, and I was going like three times a week. So I was trying to be better, and then this happened and I was like, "Perfect, I don't have to exercise anymore." I do have to cancel my gym membership though. But I need to be more active. I've been doing this thing called Randonauting, I don't know if you've ever heard of it. KL: No, I don't know what that is. GH: It's an app where they randomly generate a point on a map, given a parameter, and you're supposed to "manifest" -- I don't really like the idea of manifesting because I think it's a little bit a crock of bullshit, because just because you think good things doesn't mean good things will happen to you. Obviously having a positive mindset is ideal, but you know, I just think it's a little bit privileged, coming from that. Not everyone can think good thoughts and good things will happen to them. But you're supposed to manifest something, and then the point is generated, and then you go to that point and see what's up. And a lot of people on Reddit and Twitter have been finding really weird stuff. Like there's a lot of articles about people finding -- they'll manifest "death" and they'll find a dead body on a beach or something. So I don't do that, but what I do do is, I manifested -- I went with a friend because it kind of can be creepy sometimes, but I manifested a cryptid, which is like Sasquatch or Loch Ness. It's like mythical creatures. I was like, "I want to see a cryptid." And then they generated a point towards a strip mall, which is like, that's interesting. And we saw a groundhog. So it was like a cheeky sort of experience, but it's kind of fun and a lot of the times it'll be in the middle of a forest. So you have to hike, so that's been my sort of physical activity. I'll just go with a friend that I see regularly, because (inaudible) live together. If I have COVID, she has COVID. That's my sort of mental, or the way I work that out in my head. I hope it's not problematic, but if it is, I'm okay with it because I literally don't see anybody all day. So -- KL: No, I you know -- GH: I don't go to parties. I don't hang out with a lot of people. It's like three people that I see outside of my house, and that's it. But I guess people should get creative with how to spend their time, if they can't do the things that they were doing before. Yeah. KL: And like, reaching out to people that you can, I don't know, video chat with. Or be with in your bubble, whatever they're calling it. GH: I feel like a lot of people -- not me, because I don't like alcohol that much -- but I feel like a lot of people are concerning me with their alcohol consumption. Like, I'll call them and they'll be like, "Oh yeah, I'm just drinking." And like, again? It's a Tuesday. So I guess that goes along with mental health. But no, I haven't been doing that. Although maybe I should, on a weekend. But I feel like it's like, I don't know, doesn't feel like -- I don't know. KL: That's not the hobby you want to develop right now. GH: No, but I do feel like a lot of people are like, "Whelp, if I'm not going to go out, I guess I'm going to drink here," and then yeah, so, concerned. I think that there should be a -- if we're going to be doing this for a while, I think that there should be more messaging about how to be a person in this time. Because it seems like they're just telling us what we should be doing and then a lot of people get mad about it, that aren't creative. I don't know. Here's how you should be safe during a pandemic and also in a mental health way. Because not many people are about here with a counselor. So yeah. I think that that should be something that's focused on. I don't see that a lot anywhere, though. KL: Yeah I know, that's really true. I know, I'm like so thankful for my friends who I can be sad to every day, or be happy to, or yeah. GH: Oh, I guess another part is like, Black Lives Matter. I've been very passionate about showing up and helping as much as I can. Sometimes it just conflicts with my schedule, but I recently went to the -- I don't know if you heard about Palmerton's protest a couple weeks ago. It's a town over from where I used to live, and my good friends were the organizers. And it went very poorly. KL: Oh, no. GH: Lots of counter protestors. There was a lot of rumors that we were bussing in three hundred people from the Lehigh Valley, which is a very intentional terminology used by a lot of conspiracy theorists who think that George Soros funds this stuff. And there were like maybe 80 people there, and then like over three hundred of the other people there, not wearing masks. They also had guns and were pushing people, so I felt unsafe. I was having some heart palpitations from it, because it was hot out and I felt unsafe. So I left a little early, but it kind of was a wakeup call to me to see that people are really upset on both sides, and it's really hard to communicate. Not for me ; on my social media, I am pretty honest about my beliefs and I'll post something and be like, "If you want to talk about it, I'm absolutely down to talk about it. However, if you're rude, you're not allowed to. And you can absolutely unfriend me if this offends you." You know, like I'm not going to unfriend people for disagreeing. I will unfollow them if I see racist bullshit. I just don't want to create an echo chamber for myself, but I also don't want to spend time on people who just won't change. So I feel like a lot of people just don't want to have conversations. A lot of the Black Lives Matter protestors actually did want to have conversations, I will say, but I don't think they ever were in debate in high school or understand how to not -- I don't think opening up with, "That's racist," is going to reach people, even if it's true. So I feel like with the Trump presidency and with all these really, really contrasting views, it's just really hard to communicate. And no one's setting a real example, I think. If somebody called me a racist, I would be like, "Okay, why?" But I think most people would just be really offended and be like, "You're an asshole, fuck you." And I think there has to be some sort of know your audience, but unfortunately the people that showed up to this protest that were counter protesting it were not interested in listening at all. Because you know, if you showed up to protest a protest, I don't think you're going to listen. So I kind of tried -- I was the person that was trying to kind of reel us all in like hey, just ignore them. The more you do this thing -- you can't tell who's the idiot, if you're arguing with an idiot. So, I think that that was a big mental health thing for people. I'm mostly coming from the Black Lives Matter perspective rather than the other side, because that's a whole different sort of thing for me. But a lot of my friends continue to argue on Facebook and Instagram and Twitter, and I'm out here and I'm just like, "You know what? I need a break. This is a lot." And I know that kind of is selfish to take a break when other people can't take a break because this is their everyday life, but I can't continue to do my best and fight for what's right if I'm going to be drained and upset, so I'm going to educate myself. I took a week to read some Black and queer poetry, and then I talked with friends about it, and tonight I'm going to do a city council thing. We're going to do our best. I just don't think that a lot of people are realizing that they can't continue to keep doing the same thing and feel better. They're not going to. I appreciate the fight, though. I appreciate that people have so much passion for it, but I just realized, I'm twenty-three. And trying to please everybody has never worked for me. It's only made me want to die, so I'm not doing that anymore. I'm going to please myself, I'm going to try to please other people to the best of my ability, and if it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. So yeah. But small towns are tough, and I'm really glad that Lehigh Valley, at least the police aren't complete trash. They haven't been violent, as far as I can tell. So thankfully there's that, but not the same for the rest of the country, which is also really scary. Just a million different things happening that are completely bogus and crazy, and we're supposed to just be chill? Like no, it's okay to not be chill. Just don't push through that. Actually, we're in a pandemic, we're supposed to be quarantined. Take a second. You can. The fight's still going to be there tomorrow, absolutely. Yeah. I just wish I could tell people to slow down when they're supposed to be slowed down for a sec. And this is advice actually not that I came up with. This is advice from my advisor in college who I am friends with, and she is a really intelligent person. She has done a lot of good social justice work, but she takes breaks because you can't keep -- if it's a marathon, you can't just do that. KL: Yeah, because then you just can't continue to do it. You can't continue that work, and -- GH: As long as you get back into it. Some people, it is just a trend for some people. That's to be expected, and it doesn't bother me as much as it should, probably, because I'm just like, well, the women's march back in 2016, the more people involved, I think the less specific an issue becomes. Obviously it's raising awareness towards something, but I think a lot of the criticisms of the women's march were that it was vague. And it was, but it also showed how intersectional feminism can pretty much encompass every part of our lives, so you know, good and bad with it. But with stuff that is racial, it's probably best for people that aren't going to say the right stuff to let other voices come through more, because some people really are like, "Yeah, Black Lives Matter, but I'm not racist." You know what, if you're white, you're probably a little racist at least. KL: Yeah. You can't see that in yourself and admit that. GH: Yeah. Some of the protests I went to, where they had people like come up and speak about something. I saw some white people go up. I'm like, "Sit back down, sit back down. This isn't your time. Wait until other people go up, oh my gosh." So you know, I'm not necessarily [in bad?] about it. I mean, obviously the more the merrier that are going to stand in solidarity, but some people's voices do come through when they shouldn't. Just like with TERFs, like JK Rowling. I mean, we don't want her to be talking right now. No thank you. Yup. Yeah. KL: Yeah. Okay. I don't know, I feel like we have a few more minutes. So if you have anything else to say before we wrap it up. GH: Not really. I think I did a good rant sesh. KL: Me too. It was awesome. GH: Yup. Thank you for doing this. It's really cool. I'm excited to see what the product of it is, and yeah. I think this is going to be -- it's cool to be part of a history thing. KL: Yeah, I mean thank you so much for your time. GH: Absolutely. KL: And it's interesting on -- it's been fun to see everybody. It's been fun to listen to people, and I don't know. I don't know if fun's the right word, but it's been good. And it's, I think, a good -- I don't even know. A good view of all the things. GH: So, is this an anonymous thing, or not really? KL: Not really. I mean, if you want it to be. GH: So, I guess it's fine. I'm comfortable with sharing any of that, but I feel like some people -- I guess with the mental health stuff where I talk about the sensitive stuff, definitely trigger warning for some people. And I want it to be very evident that I am okay, because I don't want people worrying about me. I didn't tell anybody at work that -- they knew that there was stuff going on in my life, because they saw that my environment changed on Zoom. But I didn't tell them that I was that bad. So I guess I'm chill with it. I just hope that it's put in a way that doesn't concern my friends and family. Which, it is concerning but I'm okay. I don't know. I'm cool with whatever, and I'm not going to take back anything. KL: Well, I mean, I'm still recording by the way. But I mean, you'll get the transcript and you can look through it, and if you want to cut anything out, we can do that. GH: Yeah, okay. KL: And then, what else? GH: It should be fine. KL: And Ariel did one of these, too. GH: Ariel? KL: Mm-hmm. He did that. He did one. GH: Ollie also told me he did one. KL: Oh, did he? GH: I think so. Do you know Ollie? KL: I do know Ollie. GH: He used to work at the center. KL: Or, did he, with Liz? GH: Maybe with Liz. KL: Maybe he hasn't done it yet. Anyway, sorry, I just got [involved?] thinking of all of Liz's (inaudible). GH: You're really good at this. You made me feel very comfortable. Yeah. KL: Good, I'm glad. I know. I should stop recording, and then I'll say -- anyway, thank you! I'm going to stop recording, and then I'll just talk to you for fun. GH: Oh, Okay. KL: Hold on. And -- END OF VIDEO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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00:48:24
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Gabby Hochfeld, July 29, 2020
Description
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Gabby Hochfeld discusses her life experiences during the COVID-19 pandemic including the ways in which it has effected her mental health, work life, and social interactions.
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PH40_03
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
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2020-07-29
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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efdf32d959853f802e80e7bff954aa72
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
An account of the resource
In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Liz Bradbury
Interviewee
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Ian Wagner
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_29.xml
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5.4 July 7, 2020 Ian Wagner, July 9, 2020 PH40_29 00:56:26 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Ian Wagner Liz Bradbury video/mpeg WagnerIan_20200709_video.mp4 1.0:|1385(5) 0 https://youtu.be/gj2WoluJDTE YouTube video 0 Interview Introduction LIZ BRADBURY: -- record on this computer. I’m also going to do an audio recording because I did one last week for the HIV/AIDS ones that we’re doing for people who were around during the AIDS epidemic, and I did ten people, and one of the people I was doing didn’t record it right. She had stopped it, I had to stop it because we lost a connection for her. And I pressed resume but on Zoom resume does not mean resume. It means you resume to the opportunity to record again. (laughs) So, then you have to press record again. So, luckily I had an audio recording of her. And her camera, her video recording camera was really bad anyways, so I felt ever more exonerated because I didn’t mess it up. Can you hear me okay?
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 ; IAN WAGNER: Yes, I can, how about me? 
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 ; LB: You sound great. We are recording and I’m going to read you the stuff here. And it says -- let’s see, turn off phone. I think my phone is already off. Yes, it is. And I’m recording, I’ve got the audio, I’ve got the video, okay. I have to pin you. Wait a minute. I have to do the pin thing. Whoops, no, I want to pin video on you. That’s not right.
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 ; IW: Don’t you love when you have technical difficulties? 0 297 Finishing up clinical counseling degree online/Counseling people through Zoom LB: Let me ask you first, in the place -- well, so, you’re working now? You’re working online? We’ll just talk about that. 
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 ; IW: Yes, I am. I actually just obtained my master’s degree in clinical counseling. So, I was in my internship when all of this started back in March. I actually finished school during COVID. And I did my internship and practicum with Pinebrook Family Answers where I still am today. I’m actually in the middle of transferring from there to Holcomb, I just obtained a position as a counselor with them. 
 ; 0 444 Experience living with roommates during the pandemic LB: You’re working in this house in New Tripoli. And who else is in the house with you? You’re not all by yourself? 
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 ; IW: No, I’m with my roommate Rachel Zane and her daughter Sarah Zane. 
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 ; LB: It’s lucky that you have other people there because when you’re with other people it’s easier. Do you think it’s easier? 0 528 Securing a job in the middle of the pandemic/House protocols for going back to in-person work LB: When you graduated right in the middle of this, were you afraid it would be hard to get a job? 
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 ; IW: Not really. Just because I already had an offer from Pinebrook so, at least I was okay there. And I do still work full-time as a support coordinator for service, access, and management, so thankfully as far as work that wasn’t a concern. And I realize I’m incredibly blessed because what I do with the social work and the counseling it’s able to go virtual and I can still work full-time. Like I didn’t get affected as far as employment. Which I know a lot of people were, so I consider myself lucky on that stance. 0 731 Communicating digitally during the pandemic LB: So, there’s questions here about if you’re doing communicating by phone or online for work, but what about socially? Are you doing that for socially? You have friends that you’re talking to that way too, or what do you think? 
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 ; IW: Yeah. I have used Facetime more than I probably ever have, and Zoom, and Skype. Something me and a couple of friends are doing is we enjoy Broadway, and of course, that’s been closed down. So, there’s this app, which I’m forgetting right now, but it’s Broadway World, I don’t know, I forget it. But we’re using that to watch Broadway shows that have been previously recorded. 0 841 Concerns about the pandemic LB: What’s your biggest concern? In terms of the whole world and what’s happening, what’s the stuff that’s really concerning you most with regard to this virus? 
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 ; IW: In regards to COVID-19? 
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 ; LB: Yeah.
 ; 0 909 Knowing of someone who has died from Covid-19 LB: Do you know anybody who’s had it? 
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 ; IW: Not really. There was a classmate of mine from high school who I’ve lost touch with since high school, but unfortunately he did pass away due to COVID-19. Which was really a hit to home for me because this guy was my age, perfect health, was an athlete back in high school, and he got sick and unfortunately passed away. So, it was that thing where I knew it didn’t really matter my age, but that was a yeah, it doesn’t matter, this is someone you know, and -- 
 ; 0 972 Thoughts on Dr. Rachel Levine LB: So, we really would love to know, one of the things that I think we’re all concerned about, or at least people you and I know, are very concerned about the lack of federal leadership, let’s put it that way. (laughs)
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 ; IW: Okay, let’s put it that way.
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 ; LB: But one of the things that we have in common is that we have some pretty great leadership in the state. And Dr. Rachel Levine has been really for me a mainstay, I’ve felt a lot of comfort. How do you feel about when you see her? Have you seen her when she’s talking about stuff? (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible)
 ; 0 1044 Fears and frustrations regarding pandemic/Counseled patients' experience with the pandemic LB: There are fears in terms of -- that you have about that kind of stuff too. Because -- what do you think would happen if you got it? 
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 ; IW: I have thought about that. I don’t know. I mean, just hope and pray that the treatment they give me in a hospital would work and I would pull through. For my loved ones, I would hope I would find out as soon as possible so I can either be isolated or put into a hospital where I can’t affect my loved ones. Honestly that’s probably my biggest fear is not so much me getting it. Like, I obviously don’t want it, but getting it and affecting those around me. 
 ; 0 1189 Use of queer dating sites or hookup apps during the pandemic/Pandemic affecting dating life LB: We have some things on this list of questions and one of them is, are you using any queer dating sites or hookup apps? 
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 ; IW: You know what? No, right now no. I don’t understand why anyone would be because then you would want to go meet that person, again, you don’t know who they’ve been around. So I see it -- I don’t understand. 
 ; 0 1255 Difficulty for counseled patients coming out during pandemic LB: You’re in a situation where you never have to worry about being out because you’re as out as can be and you live with people who are totally comfortable with you being out, they’ve always known that you are gay. But are you coming in contact with people, particularly young people since you are working with young people who are really at risk because they can’t be out to anyone because they’re at home, have you had anybody like that? 
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 ; IW: I’ve had a client like that who couldn’t come out specifically as transgender. So, that was difficult for him. And it’s a matter of, at least for me, assisting them to make sure they’re safe both physically and emotionally. And trying to give them as many tools as I can. 
 ; 0 1360 Participating in Bradbury-Sullivan programs online/Skepticism over Covid protocols switching to code green LB: Can you get to do any kind of queer activities besides just hanging out with your pals? 
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 ; IW: Just on the -- at the Center online we do some things. You recently gave (inaudible) talk, so I really enjoyed that. So, some things. I mean, other activities, no. I really am trying to stay inside as much as possible. Even now that we’re in green, I just don’t want to take any chances. 0 1440 Experience with neighbors in New Tripoli during the pandemic LB: New Tripoli is north of Allentown up in north of Lehigh or sort of on the northern end of Lehigh Valley, and it’s a little bit more rural. Are you finding that people are being more neighborly and more careful or less -- or more sort of independent or about the same as you would imagine? 
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 ; IW: I would say about the same. Like we’re so far from each other as far as like neighborly that we’re on a hi, bye, kind of status, but we don’t see each other unless you’re driving by, which a lot of us aren’t because we’re not going anywhere. 0 1523 Not feeling safe at the grocery store LB: Do you think that the stores, I mean, when you go to -- I haven’t really been to stores. We have a young person in our life who was sick, and she was in college, and she got the virus, and she was quite sick, but now she’s all better and she actually has a high level of antibodies. So, we don’t even feel guilty about making her go to the store for us because not putting herself at risk and she’s not carrying it to other people either. Which is a unique situation because we really don’t, I mean, most people that we know well haven’t gotten it because they’ve been so careful and they’ve been in and stuff. But when you go to the store, do you feel confident in the store? Do you feel like the store --
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 ; IW: Honestly, no. Just because I go to the store and I see some people where they take their mask off as soon as they get in the store, or they have it like half on with their noses out, or even like completely down so the mask is covering their chin. 0 1686 Going out besides grocery shopping during the pandemic/Counseling in person LB: Have there been any instances where you’ve had to go someplace, other places besides just getting essential food or something? 
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 ; IW: I did, actually I did just go to my office for the first time yesterday. Because, like I said, I’m switching jobs from Pinebrook Family Answers to Holcomb Behavioral Health, so there are some clients who I feel it’s my ethical duty to see them in person during this termination time because it’s difficult for some people. 0 1803 Spending less money during the pandemic LB: Do you think that you’re spending more money because you’re stuck away? Or you’re spending less?
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 ; IW: Incredibly less. 
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 ; LB: Yeah?
 ; 0 1870 More on socializing/communicating LB: Are there people that you think that you’re actually in more contact with than you have been when you were working and you had to run around and stuff?
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 ; IW: Honestly, no. I still kind of keep my little close circle, so those are the people I’m still like well now I’m Skyping and Facetiming with, whereas before I would actually be with them in person. 0 1906 Taking walks/Exercise routine changing LB: You don’t realize how much time you take commuting. And I live really close to the Center, but I walk to the Center each day which is a good forty minutes a day, which I totally save. And yet, it’s harder to get exercise. Are you finding that’s true for you? Can you go outside?
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 ; IW: I can go outside because thankfully our neighbors aren’t really close, so walking around is definitely doable. I take my little dog for a walk. But even that it’s not too far. So, yeah, exercise is definitely proving a challenge. Hopefully, maybe I’ll get back to a gym someday, who knows. 0 2114 Worries about the future LB: How worried are you about the future? What do you think about the future? 
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 ; IW: Honestly, personally I’m worried that tele-health is going to become like the new norm. Because I’m not a fan. I want to go back to the office and see my clients in person 0 2207 Sources of hope during the pandemic LB: What gives you hope now? What gives you hope now? 
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 ; IW: Good question. What gives me hope now is I tend to be an optimist. Kind of a glass half full guy instead of half empty. Yes, I try to be realistic and look at the world and see what’s going on, but my hope is looking at my friends and my family, and other people who are doing, in my opinion, the right thing as far as like remaining social distance and washing your hands and mask and everything. It shows me like okay, look, there are people out there who are doing the right thing and maybe we are putting a curb on this infection, on this disease. That gives me hope is people. And we tend to be resilient, which I really love. Especially in the LGBT+ community, for us this is not our first pandemic 0 2448 Attending Kutztown University during the pandemic/Using and learning digital collaborative platforms LB: Where did you get your graduate degree? 
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 ; IW: Kutztown University. 
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 ; LB: Did you have to go to Kutztown for that? Did you have to take classes online at the end? 
 ; 0 2706 Best aspect of pandemic life LB: What’s the best thing out of this that you’ve done? 
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 ; IW: Again I think learning new things. I led a very busy lifestyle before, again, with school, and I basically had two jobs between my internship and my full-time job. So, now, I was able to learn new things like I’m one of those people who probably in other interviews have said this, I’ve learned how to bake. 0 2764 Thoughts on Black Lives Matter LB: So, a lot of things have been happening and at the same time, certainly a lot of political things that we’re all very concerned about, and the tangential things to those or the products of those that have to do with instances of discrimination, and rights, and for our community, and for all communities. And also, certainly, some very serious things with regard to Black Lives Matter, and the circumstance of racism, and the awareness of racism in the United States. Do you want to talk about that? How has that affected you? 
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 ; IW: Honestly it affected me very personally. I’m a black male and I have had to look deep within myself on how I feel about the situation. Personally growing up I never really had to deal with racism. 0 3132 Thoughts for the future LB: So, we’re coming to the end I think. So, I just want to ask you if there is anything else that you think someday somebody in the future is going to look at this and I think, I hope, that will be the case. And it might be in the near future, it might be many, many years, it might be decades, we might be all gone by them. 0 3329 Conclusion LB: Thank you so much for this. I really am very, very grateful for this opportunity to talk to you. It’s fun to talk to you. I love the room that you’re in. 
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 ; IW: Yeah, my new office while all this is happening.
 ; 0 MovingImage Ian Wagner talks about the current COVID-19 is affecting him, his friends and family, and the people he lives with, his work as a therapist and not being able to see clients face to face and his new job, how it is affecting LGBTQ people, Black Lives Matter issues, community leadership, learning to bake, and what gives him hope. Ian Wagner 2020-07-09 LIZ BRADBURY: -- record on this computer. I'm also going to do an audio recording because I did one last week for the HIV/AIDS ones that we're doing for people who were around during the AIDS epidemic, and I did ten people, and one of the people I was doing didn't record it right. She had stopped it, I had to stop it because we lost a connection for her. And I pressed resume but on Zoom resume does not mean resume. It means you resume to the opportunity to record again. (laughs) So, then you have to press record again. So, luckily I had an audio recording of her. And her camera, her video recording camera was really bad anyways, so I felt ever more exonerated because I didn't mess it up. Can you hear me okay? IAN WAGNER: Yes, I can, how about me? LB: You sound great. We are recording and I'm going to read you the stuff here. And it says -- let's see, turn off phone. I think my phone is already off. Yes, it is. And I'm recording, I've got the audio, I've got the video, okay. I have to pin you. Wait a minute. I have to do the pin thing. Whoops, no, I want to pin video on you. That's not right. IW: Don't you love when you have technical difficulties? LB: I think I may have messed up the whole thing before. Who am I seeing now? I want to pin it on you. Unpinned. No, you're pinned. Okay, you're good. Wait, unpin video. Pin you, pin video on you. Yes, good, okay, that's right. So, now, you're pinned. Okay, I've got it. Now I've got to read you this stuff. With this project Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center at the Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury and I'm here with Ian Wagner to talk about his experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of the COVID-19 pandemic as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us. Oh, I was supposed to give the date of this interview. The date is Thursday July 9th, 2020. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start, can you please state your full name and spell it for me? IW: Ian Wagner, Ian, I-A-N as in Nancy, Wagner, W-A-G-N-E-R. LB: Great. And can you please share your birth date? IW: June 29th, 1988. LB: Great. And what town are you in? IW: New Tripoli. LB: Okay, because we have to put that. Now this is the consent part, so, do you consent to this video for us to -- no, do you consent to this interview today? IW: I do. LB: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made available publically online in digital formats? IW: Yes, I do. LB: Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for education purposes in other formats including films, articles, websites, presentations, and other formats? IW: Yes, I do. LB: Do you understand that you will have 30 days after the electronic delivery of this transcript to review your interview and identify any parts you would like to delete and/or withdraw from the -- or you could actually withdraw the entire interview, if you choose, from the project? IW: I do. LB: Good. Okay, so we're going to start out by just a couple of things. What is your zip code where you live? IW: 18066. LB: And what is your age? IW: Thirty-two. LB: How do you identify within the LGBT community? Sexual orientation, gender, identity, anything you want to say with regard to that. IW: I am a gay cis male. LB: Here are some things -- so, this is about the different things. And, you know, there's a lot of different questions on here, I hope you had a chance to look at those. But we don't have to hit every one of those things, so it's just general stuff. Let me ask you first, in the place -- well, so, you're working now? You're working online? We'll just talk about that. IW: Yes, I am. I actually just obtained my master's degree in clinical counseling. So, I was in my internship when all of this started back in March. I actually finished school during COVID. And I did my internship and practicum with Pinebrook Family Answers where I still am today. I'm actually in the middle of transferring from there to Holcomb, I just obtained a position as a counselor with them. LB: Great. And you're doing that from home now? IW: Yes. LB: That is counseling people and it's sort of on Zoom stuff. IW: Yeah, we use a special Microsoft Teams because it's HIPAA compliant. LB: I see. Normally, if you were not, if it wasn't the COVID-19 circumstance, would you be seeing these people in person? IW: Yes, I would be going to the Pinebrook office and have the sessions there. LB: And how's it working out to have these sessions on Zoom? What do you think about that? IW: They work for some people and they don't work for, my caseload, most people. Yeah, just because one, I have a couple of kids, so, it's hard to keep them focused when they're not in a room with you and getting to actually participate with them. They have toys around them in their home, they have other distractions, so it's hard to get them to really participate in the counseling session. Some adults have issues with anxiety, so no matter how much I explain that Microsoft Teams is HIPAA compliant, they just don't feel comfortable discussing personal things over the phone or even over the app. So, I find in person counseling to be best. And I hope to get back there one day. LB: Yeah. Have you had anybody that liked it better? IW: I do. I have one person and that's because they live in Wind Gap, so it avoids the travel for them. So, this has actually been beneficial for that client. LB: Yeah, Wind Gap is really far. IW: Yeah. LB: You're working in this house in New Tripoli. And who else is in the house with you? You're not all by yourself? IW: No, I'm with my roommate Rachel Zane and her daughter Sarah Zane. LB: It's lucky that you have other people there because when you're with other people it's easier. Do you think it's easier? IW: I do actually. The house is a decent size so we are able to not be on top of each other throughout this entire thing. We basically each kind of have our own floors because Sarah's bedroom is on the first floor, Rachel's is on the third, and I'm actually in the basement with my own entrance and everything. So, it works out pretty good. LB: Yeah, that does work out good. Would you think that it would be -- what do you think it would be like if you were all by yourself? Or would you like it better? IW: No, I think I have the best of it right now. Because I think if I was alone I would eventually get lonely and then it's like ugh, who do I invite over because who have they been around, do I want to go outside. So, at least with them here I know where they've been and again, we don't really step on each other. So, if I want my alone time I just go to my room and that's fine. LB: When you graduated right in the middle of this, were you afraid it would be hard to get a job? IW: Not really. Just because I already had an offer from Pinebrook so, at least I was okay there. And I do still work full-time as a support coordinator for service, access, and management, so thankfully as far as work that wasn't a concern. And I realize I'm incredibly blessed because what I do with the social work and the counseling it's able to go virtual and I can still work full-time. Like I didn't get affected as far as employment. Which I know a lot of people were, so I consider myself lucky on that stance. LB: Are the other people in the house, in your house sort of in that same situation? I kind of know the answer to this but, people who are watching this may not. And remember people may be watching this that are thirty years from now. So, it will be really an interesting time capsule to explain to people because some people might not understand the circumstances of what's really happening now. IW: Yeah, for all I know, maybe tele-health will be the norm and they'll be like, he went to the office, why? LB: (laughs) Really? Rachel's a teacher and of course it's the summer. IW: Yeah, so that worked out perfectly. Again, I mean obviously COVID-19 is horrible, but as far as when it occurred for us it happened in March, so she only had a couple of more months. So, she did teach online for a little bit, but now here we are in the summer so she would have been off anyway. LB: Right. IW: And Sarah is still in school. She goes to Northampton Community College. So, she's just taking classes online. Which she doesn't like. She's a more -- just like me, I did not like online classes, I avoided them like the plague, I like to go to the class. So, it's a little difficult for her. LB: Yeah. I mean, I don't even know if this is on the list but I'm fascinated because I'm sure you're all in the house considering this, that if Rachel has to go -- what do you think is going to happen? Some states are requiring teachers to go back to work even though it's incredibly dangerous, particularly in Florida, for example. IW: Yes. We've talked about that. Especially since I believe for my clients, some of them need to do the in person counseling. So, we've had that discussion like if they lift it and I'm able to go to the office, for some clients I would want to go to the office. So, basically all we can do, considering that we both work in basically a humanistic profession, her being a teacher, me being a counselor, that we would just have to do the best we can as far as obviously remembering to wash our hands, we have our own masks, I keep extra masks in the car just in case I walk out of the house and forget mine, and in case I come across someone who needs one I can give them one. And when I get home, if I -- because we have to go to the store and stuff like that, so, on the rare occasions that happens, we come home, we immediately throw our clothes in the washer, and we take a shower. So, we try to be as careful as we can. LB: So, there's questions here about if you're doing communicating by phone or online for work, but what about socially? Are you doing that for socially? You have friends that you're talking to that way too, or what do you think? IW: Yeah. I have used Facetime more than I probably ever have, and Zoom, and Skype. Something me and a couple of friends are doing is we enjoy Broadway, and of course, that's been closed down. So, there's this app, which I'm forgetting right now, but it's Broadway World, I don't know, I forget it. But we're using that to watch Broadway shows that have been previously recorded. LB: Oh cool. IW: What we do is we set up our laptops, phones, whatever we're using, and we press play at the same time so we're watching the show at the same time together just in different houses. Yeah, it's been really nice. We still get to socialize and talk about it and still remain safe as far as social distancing. LB: And then you're like on the phone talking about it while you're watching it. IW: Yeah. So, like I set up my iPad so it will be facing me and I'm watching the TV, so I can look down and at them, and be like oh my god, did you see that. LB: That's great. That's a great idea. That's really smart. Trish and I have been watching opera at the Metropolitan Opera on a really big screen, we have a really big screen here. IW: Yeah, I need to get a bigger screen. LB: Well, it's the screen -- we don't have TV, but it's the screen I use at the community center and then I project it with my projector through my computer. So, it's an enormous thing that was really interesting. What's your biggest concern? In terms of the whole world and what's happening, what's the stuff that's really concerning you most with regard to this virus? IW: In regards to COVID-19? LB: Yeah. IW: I am concerned that we're going to be in green too soon, we're already in green. And people being home for so long are going to let their guards down and go to places like the beach, the park, and wearing a mask is uncomfortable. At least I find it uncomfortable. So, they may like put it down so their nose is out or something. And I just -- without a vaccination or proper treatment yet, I think it's really dangerous for people to still come together in large groups. LB: Do you know people who are doing that? IW: Not personally, but I see it online and stuff like that. LB: It's funny that I really don't know anybody that's doing it, but I do see it online. And I'm glad that I don't have to yell at my own friends. IW: Exactly. LB: Do you know anybody who's had it? IW: Not really. There was a classmate of mine from high school who I've lost touch with since high school, but unfortunately he did pass away due to COVID-19. Which was really a hit to home for me because this guy was my age, perfect health, was an athlete back in high school, and he got sick and unfortunately passed away. So, it was that thing where I knew it didn't really matter my age, but that was a yeah, it doesn't matter, this is someone you know, and -- LB: Was he in the area? IW: Yeah. LB: Wow. Was he doing something like in an essential services situation? Was he a healthcare worker? Because a lot of healthcare workers -- IW: No, not to my knowledge. Again, we lost track. LB: Yeah. So, we really would love to know, one of the things that I think we're all concerned about, or at least people you and I know, are very concerned about the lack of federal leadership, let's put it that way. (laughs) IW: Okay, let's put it that way. LB: But one of the things that we have in common is that we have some pretty great leadership in the state. And Dr. Rachel Levine has been really for me a mainstay, I've felt a lot of comfort. How do you feel about when you see her? Have you seen her when she's talking about stuff? (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) IW: Sorry? LB: The Secretary of Health, for peoples' edification. IW: Yeah. Fortunately I was able to meet her at one point, so that was really nice. And I am always watching her when she's on TV or I search for the article if I miss something on TV. I think she's a real leader in so many ways, and I'm incredibly thankful that we have her. She's taking this pandemic seriously and is trying to protect us all and help us all as much as she can. LB: There are fears in terms of -- that you have about that kind of stuff too. Because -- what do you think would happen if you got it? IW: I have thought about that. I don't know. I mean, just hope and pray that the treatment they give me in a hospital would work and I would pull through. For my loved ones, I would hope I would find out as soon as possible so I can either be isolated or put into a hospital where I can't affect my loved ones. Honestly that's probably my biggest fear is not so much me getting it. Like, I obviously don't want it, but getting it and affecting those around me. LB: Yeah. No kidding. I mean, I think that we all have people who are at risk around us and it's very frightening, I think. I mean, to think that you could hurt someone else. IW: Especially someone you care for. LB: Yeah. It's hard to not be angry at people. It's hard to not feel anger. Anger. Have you been having a feeling -- I have a lot of feeling like that. IW: More frustration and confusion on how these people are not taking it seriously and how some people believe that it's a hoax, that it's not really happening. And quoting things like oh, more people die from the flu every year, but it's like that doesn't mitigate what's happening here right now. LB: When you're working with the people that you're seeing online, they probably, I would guess that some of them are very scared. Does that happen? IW: Yeah, some of the kids don't understand so, it's a matter of helping them to understand and seeing where they are. And some of the adults are just downright frustrated. They want to go out, some are not used to not being able to do what they want to do because they're older adults, so they haven't had to answer to anyone in a really long time. And now it's like it's almost like you're punished, like go in your room and don't come out, like you can't come out of your house. LB: It is like that. We have some things on this list of questions and one of them is, are you using any queer dating sites or hookup apps? IW: You know what? No, right now no. I don't understand why anyone would be because then you would want to go meet that person, again, you don't know who they've been around. So I see it -- I don't understand. LB: (inaudible) online dates. IW: Yeah, people are doing like Zoom dates and stuff like that. I haven't thought about it. And honestly, I haven't dated so long because of school it's not really different for me. What I do find funny was I was telling myself before all this like you graduate this coming year, after you graduate you're going to get back out there. And then COVID and it's like nope, you're staying right here, no dating for you. So, I was like okay. LB: That's true. The whole universe is stacked up against you. IW: Ian's going to be alone. LB: You're in a situation where you never have to worry about being out because you're as out as can be and you live with people who are totally comfortable with you being out, they've always known that you are gay. But are you coming in contact with people, particularly young people since you are working with young people who are really at risk because they can't be out to anyone because they're at home, have you had anybody like that? IW: I've had a client like that who couldn't come out specifically as transgender. So, that was difficult for him. And it's a matter of, at least for me, assisting them to make sure they're safe both physically and emotionally. And trying to give them as many tools as I can. LB: It's tricky. This must be new in some ways for you as a therapist or a psychotherapist that somebody's got this set of problems and by the way, I also -- IW: Exactly. LB: -- have all of this stuff. It's a new set of tools that you have to have to do something. IW: Exactly. It's like you know you're in a home where you love your loved ones, but you can't be yourself around them. So, now you have to stay there 24/7. It's very difficult, I would imagine. Like you said, thankfully I'm not in that situation where I have to hide myself. I do feel for my client. And again, I try to help them as much as possible. I've told them about the Center, about the things we're offering online, trying to let them know that they're not alone. LB: Can you get to do any kind of queer activities besides just hanging out with your pals? IW: Just on the -- at the Center online we do some things. You recently gave (inaudible) talk, so I really enjoyed that. So, some things. I mean, other activities, no. I really am trying to stay inside as much as possible. Even now that we're in green, I just don't want to take any chances. LB: It's still a huge risk. Just because we're in green. And in some ways people seem to be wearing masks way less. They certainly are in the city way less. And Trish says that the choice of green was a stupid thing to call it because it seems as though everybody is saying, just go, now you're fine, green. It's not red, it's not yellow, it's green, just go ahead. IW: It definitely has that connotation. It's like go, you're free. And that's exactly how some people are acting like they were locked up and now they're free and they're running about. And it's like yes, we're allowed to be outside more, but it doesn't mean we're safe. LB: New Tripoli is north of Allentown up in north of Lehigh or sort of on the northern end of Lehigh Valley, and it's a little bit more rural. Are you finding that people are being more neighborly and more careful or less -- or more sort of independent or about the same as you would imagine? IW: I would say about the same. Like we're so far from each other as far as like neighborly that we're on a hi, bye, kind of status, but we don't see each other unless you're driving by, which a lot of us aren't because we're not going anywhere. I personally downloaded, and I know a couple people in the neighborhood have downloaded this app called Neighbor or Neighborhood, and it's basically around your area and you can post if you do need help or something like that. So, if a person who is living alone and maybe not quite as healthy, especially physically, they can post like hey, I need some groceries. And if I feel up to it and I think, you know what, this is worth taking the risk, I can do their grocery shopping for them. It's a way for us to be exactly that, neighborly, without leaving our homes and helping out as best we can. LB: Do you think that the stores, I mean, when you go to -- I haven't really been to stores. We have a young person in our life who was sick, and she was in college, and she got the virus, and she was quite sick, but now she's all better and she actually has a high level of antibodies. So, we don't even feel guilty about making her go to the store for us because not putting herself at risk and she's not carrying it to other people either. Which is a unique situation because we really don't, I mean, most people that we know well haven't gotten it because they've been so careful and they've been in and stuff. But when you go to the store, do you feel confident in the store? Do you feel like the store --IW: Honestly, no. Just because I go to the store and I see some people where they take their mask off as soon as they get in the store, or they have it like half on with their noses out, or even like completely down so the mask is covering their chin. And I know, at least I feel, like the employees are working as hard as they can. But realistically I just don't think -- you can't wipe down everything that everyone is touching. To me it's not possible. So, if I'm touching things I'm taking a risk. So, what I personally do and I look silly doing it, but it's worked so far, I put a glove on one hand, and that's my store glove. Like I use that to touch everything. And then my other hand I don't like accidentally reach for something, it's in my pocket. And then when I get to the register, I use my clean hand to touch my wallet and all that, do my card, and the glove hand, punch in the numbers, and when I get outside I de-glove, put it in the garbage, go back to my car, I have some hand sanitizer in there. I also have this thing called CavIWipes, which we used to use at the hospital when I was a nursing assistant. So, it's really strong. I wipe down my steering wheel and my doorknob and everything like that. So, taking as many precautions as I can think of, at least. LB: Do you know anybody that -- I mean, anybody in the neighborhood or any -- you've already mentioned somebody that you know that died from it, very serious. But do you know anybody in the neighborhood that has gotten it, or people in the store? Of course, they're probably not telling. Because they're not going to tell you at the store that oh yeah, six people got it in the last time they were in here. IW: Exactly. Talk about bad for business. LB: Really. Have there been any instances where you've had to go someplace, other places besides just getting essential food or something? IW: I did, actually I did just go to my office for the first time yesterday. Because, like I said, I'm switching jobs from Pinebrook Family Answers to Holcomb Behavioral Health, so there are some clients who I feel it's my ethical duty to see them in person during this termination time because it's difficult for some people. So, I went there, but I talked to them about it beforehand, we took temperatures, they were wearing a mask, we met in my conference room so we were at a big table far apart from one another, had them wash their hands when they came in, I did the same. Again, took as many precautions as I could think of. I wiped down the table before they got there, I wiped it down after they left. Yeah, that's the only place I've been since that or this. And to my maiLBox. LB: Yeah, it's interesting that you recognize that you don't have to go many places. We've had to go to the doctor a few times and suddenly we realized that we had to register the car. So, we went in order to do that, to get the mileage on the car, it's in the garage next to the Community Center, so we drove over there in our other car. And I went to get in to turn it on and it was dead. So, I went to look at the mileage, but because it was dead, the mileage wasn't -- I couldn't see the mileage. So, I said, eh, I'll just leave it here. IW: Just leave it. Or guess. LB: Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. Do you think that you're spending more money because you're stuck away? Or you're spending less? IW: Incredibly less. LB: Yeah? IW: Yeah, because living in New Tripoli the office is in Easton. And my other job as a social worker, I was going to peoples' homes. So, I was constantly driving. I'm not spending money on gas, I'm not eating out because I'm not out. And when I do grocery shopping I'm actually using the food. I will say unfortunately sometimes when I do grocery shopping before, I was out so much that some food would get spoiled, so it was a waste of food and money. Definitely not happening anymore. I'm cooking. It's definitely less money. LB: Are people taking turns cooking in the house or are you always cooking? IW: No, we kind of just cook when we want. And thankfully so far it's kind of balanced out. LB: That's good. IW: And we cook so -- and we have leftovers, so it's really like you don't even need to cook every day. It's working out. LB: Are there people that you think that you're actually in more contact with than you have been when you were working and you had to run around and stuff? IW: Honestly, no. I still kind of keep my little close circle, so those are the people I'm still like well now I'm Skyping and Facetiming with, whereas before I would actually be with them in person. Well, actually, there is one cousin that I talk to more now. Being home more often gives me the chance of like, you know what, I haven't checked in with this person, let me do that. LB: You don't realize how much time you take commuting. And I live really close to the Center, but I walk to the Center each day which is a good forty minutes a day, which I totally save. And yet, it's harder to get exercise. Are you finding that's true for you? Can you go outside? IW: I can go outside because thankfully our neighbors aren't really close, so walking around is definitely doable. I take my little dog for a walk. But even that it's not too far. So, yeah, exercise is definitely proving a challenge. Hopefully, maybe I'll get back to a gym someday, who knows. LB: Would you normally have gone to a gym? IW: Honestly no. (laughs) My exercise is going to my clients' houses and walking to and from and all that. And a lot of standing. I would stand when I was at the office, we had those desks that rise. So, I tried to do little things like that, but I'm not a gym person to be honest. LB: I have a bicycle desk. IW: Nice, I've heard of those. LB: It's cool actually. So that like when you were watching the Broadway shows with your friends, if you were watching on a laptop, for example, you could do that and then you could ride the bicycle desk. IW: That's not a bad idea. I actually helped a client get -- it wasn't attached to a desk, but the same thing, it was on the floor and it was a bicycle. I didn't even think about that. That is the perfect idea. LB: They're actually very quiet and they're not, they don't run by power, you power them. IW: Exactly. LB: They're easy to move around and they fold up too if you don't want it in the way. But I have to say that I've had bicycle desks for about six years. And I use them all the time. It's actually a very successful thing because you are sitting around anyway. And if you have to read a lot of documents or you have to be in a really long boring meeting. IW: Yes. LB: You know what I'm saying? I do it even if it's not boring, you can pay attention. So, with our staff meetings I always do it during our staff meetings because I can perfectly pay attention and stuff like that. But people see me going like this the whole time. IW: They're like, what is she doing. LB: Yeah. IW: That's something that I'm able to do now with the counseling and when I'm calling my clients on the social work aspect, is if I'm talking to them on the phone and not be a Zoom or anything, I can actually walk around. Whereas of course in a counseling office I'm sitting there with them. But now it gives me the opportunity like I grab my cup of coffee, I have my headset on, and I'm walking around on the deck or walk around the garden. LB: Well, there you go, you've got that going for you. IW: Because sometimes you just want to get out and stop looking at the four walls. LB: I think it's not a bad thing. It's almost like you're going for a walk with the person too, which is not necessarily a bad thing either. IW: Exactly. LB: That's an opportunity for you to do stuff that's a little bit different. That's something different that you do. Let's see, so we've been asking people about that. How worried are you about the future? What do you think about the future? IW: Honestly, personally I'm worried that tele-health is going to become like the new norm. Because I'm not a fan. I want to go back to the office and see my clients in person. So, selfishly, that's the first thing that comes to mind for me is like oh, I hope this doesn't become the new norm. As far as the world? I don't know. I am nervous that all of this is going to affect our upcoming election, which makes me really nervous. Because obviously, or at least to me, our leadership is very important. So, I'm nervous about the elections. I'm nervous about will we get proper treatment, will we discover anything about this really that will help it get us back to some semblance of normal. Kind of I guess the unknown is what I'm worried about. LB: Yeah, I guess maybe the people who are watching this thirty years from now know the answer. IW: Exactly. LB: I always talk about the difference between watching a movie about WWII that was made after WWII or made during WWII. And when it was made during WWII the people who made it really didn't know if we were going to win. And it was more propaganda but also really scary in a way. You could feel how it was scary, people are just trying to make people have hope. What gives you hope now? What gives you hope now? IW: Good question. What gives me hope now is I tend to be an optimist. Kind of a glass half full guy instead of half empty. Yes, I try to be realistic and look at the world and see what's going on, but my hope is looking at my friends and my family, and other people who are doing, in my opinion, the right thing as far as like remaining social distance and washing your hands and mask and everything. It shows me like okay, look, there are people out there who are doing the right thing and maybe we are putting a curb on this infection, on this disease. That gives me hope is people. And we tend to be resilient, which I really love. Especially in the LGBT+ community, for us this is not our first pandemic. So, we've bounced back and I feel like if -- I feel like we're not better prepared, but I feel like we are ahead of the game. LB: Well, explain that to the people in the future a little bit. Because I think that's true too. Explain that a little bit. IW: Back in the eighties we had when HIV was in a huge rise, even before they knew it was HIV, I believe they called it Gay-Related Infectious Disease, GRID. So, we've been battling HIV/AIDS crisis for decades at this point. And we've gotten through, we've gotten better treatments, people are smarter on how to avoid the infection, avoid the disease. And in my opinion at that time when it was brand new, that was a pandemic. You didn't know how was it spreading, do we have any treatment for it. Again they called it GRID because they didn't even know that heterosexuals could get it, they thought it was just LGBT, specifically gay men, I believe. And that's what I mean when I say we've been through that before, like we've already had our pandemic. And we're lucky, at least my generation, because I was born '88, so, I feel like I'm lucky that not only the generation before me are still around to teach us and guide us, but they are willing to do so. Take yourself, for example, you're leading the teaching at the Center, you do all the trainings. And I think that's amazing for you to give your knowledge. LB: Yeah, it's something that we can definitely do online. I've done a lot of trainings online already. I had a lot of trainings booked that ended up not being able to be given because everything was shut down. And at the time I said to people, you know, I can do these virtually for you and they said, no, no, that's okay. Now they're all getting back to me and saying, okay, let's do it online. IW: I think because I don't know if it was foolishly or hopeful, but I know myself included, I told some clients okay, we don't have to meet until we get back into the office, thinking this wouldn't be long. And now here we are months later and I'm like, I know you don't like online, but we're going to have a couple of sessions. We have to embrace the norm that we're in right now. LB: Yeah, we have to roll with it. It's what is happening and we can't pretend it's not. IW: Yeah, we can no longer pause our lives. Because I feel like that's what we all did for a little bit. And now we're realizing all right, this isn't going away any time soon, so we have to press play and just be safe about it. LB: Yeah, there's definitely that. Where did you get your graduate degree? IW: Kutztown University. LB: Did you have to go to Kutztown for that? Did you have to take classes online at the end? IW: Online at the end, yes. Like we were in the middle of the semester when everything got -- when we got sent home and put on social distancing and everything. So, we just started doing things online. I actually, the week it happened was the week I had to do a presentation that was originally going to be in class. So, I had to redo it and get it ready to present online. That was interesting because I had no one to go off, I was the first one, so everyone was going to like follow my lead. LB: No kidding. Yeah. IW: That was fun. LB: Yeah, all of these interviews that I've been doing, we got this grant to do twenty COVID interviews and ten HIV/AIDS interviews with people who had gone through that epidemic in the eighties and nineties. And because I'm the old fogey, I know those people, so it wasn't too hard, I've already done those ten interviews. But I pointed out that we're also doing archived interviews of long-time LGBT activists that through Lehigh University, and that team of people have done about ten of those interviews and it took them about a year to do them. A little bit more than a year. And then Adrian came to me and he said, well, here's this grant to do this. And I look at the grant and I said, this is thirty interviews in two months. And these other people, it took them a year and a half to do ten people. And I had never used the Zoom, so it took me a couple of weeks to get used to doing that. Luckily, it's not too hard, but still, you've got to know how to do it and get used to it. IW: Exactly. LB: Was that hard to get used to doing? IW: Other than like getting on there and being able to talk, like I can connect with someone but there's other stuff that Zoom and other platforms like Skype and Microsoft Teams offer. So, it's like you need to learn those things, like how to share your screen, for example. If I'm having -- if I'm in a staff meeting, sometimes I have to share my screen and it was like uh, how do I do that. So, I mean, again glass half full type of person, I think that's a good thing that came out of this is we're all learning new things. So, I don't know, do you feel like you would have learned about Zoom had it not been for COVID? LB: And I actually like it. Because -- IW: See? LB: Because videotaping people is hard. If you have a camera and to go to their place and with a camera and everything. But if you're doing it with Zoom it's really quite easy to do. You just press a button on it and it's done. IW: Exactly. LB: I don't have to go far away to meetings in Harrisburg and stuff like that. IW: Again, we're saving on that travel, no more gas. LB: No kidding, it really matters because that would take me the whole day for like a two-hour meeting. And now since they say we don't have to break for lunch so we'll just make it an hour and a half meeting, I'm like I hated the lunch anyway. (laughs) IW: It's like no, yeah, let's work it in, let's just get out early. LB: It's harder to network. So, it's harder to talk to people individually. IW: Yeah, and I'm a face person, so there are some people who don't really like using video, and I'm like but I don't want to talk on the phone, can we at least Facetime so I can see your face. And things get lost in translation via text, so I'm like -- LB: Text is terribly hard, I think. Text is just to say yes or no. Yes, I can talk to you at ten. But it's dangerous to try to do business on text, that's definitely the case. IW: I definitely prefer video conference. LB: What's the best thing out of this that you've done? IW: Again I think learning new things. I led a very busy lifestyle before, again, with school, and I basically had two jobs between my internship and my full-time job. So, now, I was able to learn new things like I'm one of those people who probably in other interviews have said this, I've learned how to bake. I was one of those people baking bread those first couple of weeks. And like cake, and I would have never thought, I cannot cook, it does not work well for me. So, who would have thought I'd be able to bake, because I've heard like that's a lot harder, like it's more of a science. But baking I can do, cooking I cannot. That's my sister's job. But you need a cake, I'm not it. LB: All right. Well, that's good to know. (laughs) IW: And I find it fun. LB: Yeah. So, a lot of things have been happening and at the same time, certainly a lot of political things that we're all very concerned about, and the tangential things to those or the products of those that have to do with instances of discrimination, and rights, and for our community, and for all communities. And also, certainly, some very serious things with regard to Black Lives Matter, and the circumstance of racism, and the awareness of racism in the United States. Do you want to talk about that? How has that affected you? IW: Honestly it affected me very personally. I'm a black male and I have had to look deep within myself on how I feel about the situation. Personally growing up I never really had to deal with racism. Because although part of my family is Caucasian, they're my family like I was always accepted. And we're a very mixed family, like I'm not the only mixed child. Like basically my entire generation is mixed. So, I was always accepted there, everywhere we lived was usually [majorily?] in a Black or Hispanic area. Now, as an adult, with everything going on and looking, seeing these things happen online, it made me realize how lucky I was because not everyone had that. And I really had to sit back and reflect on it. And it's hard also being a counselor at this time, being a black counselor, in my opinion, just because what we're taught is as far as a counselor my job is not to push my morals onto my client. And I'm supposed to be a safe space for them. I do have some clients that disclosed to me like listen, I don't think black lives matter, I think this whole thing is foolish, and I've had one client tell me that they hate Black people because of this because they're causing these riots, and it's just for attention because they're looting and beating up on their own people, they don't really care. And as much as it kind of hurts me, and part of me wants to defend and discuss it, I know in that time and place it's not my place. Like I'm there as their counselor, their confidant, I'm not there to challenge them really. So, it's a really weird spot to be in. LB: Yeah, that is weird. That must be very stressful. IW: Yeah, because I have to definitely make sure I'm centered and remember my purpose in that moment. And I try to educate, but you can never just come out and be like, well, I think you're wrong. Or even really challenge them completely. If it was my normal personal life, I would definitely get into it. But as a counselor that's not really my place. LB: Yeah. On the info-line, people call the info-line and they ask questions. I had a guy recently ask me, he was very, very agitated and there's something really wrong with this person, and he started to say he wanted to talk to PFLAG, and I said, well this isn't PFLAG. And he finally got the whole thing out and he was really, really angry. And finally it turned out that another LGBT organization in the greater Lehigh Valley had determined that this person was a racist, they said, "Because of things you've done, we see this as racism, and we don't want you to be associated with this organization." And he said, "This is ridiculous." And I said, "Well, what did you do?" (laughs) IW: Yeah, before -- LB: He said, so, I did this thing. He didn't want to tell me. And then he finally said it and I said, "Well, I can see why they thought this was racist." And he said, "But it's not." And I said, "Well that's not really the issue. The issue is what they perceived and they did perceive that. IW: Honestly that is a big thing that I've been discussing with people actually in counseling and outside of counseling is perception. Like right now they, you know, people are debating about this monument, about Abraham Lincoln, where he's standing and there is a black male there with the chains like this, but they're broken. If you know your history you know that Abraham Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation, that statue is to show that -- that he helped free the black people. But honestly, if you look at it from afar, it does look like a white man standing and a black man on his knees like he's less than the man. So, it's about perception. LB: That's a good point, yeah. Yeah, I think that a lot of people are not comfortable in trying to take a different point of view other than one is narrow and sort of justifying how they were feeling in the past. And they still want to say, I don't want to change. And I think really this whole time that we're doing stuff is really about change. You have to change. IW: And I think honestly that's a beautiful thing right now is that people are noticing there's a need for a change. And people are making things happen for that change. Like people are taking the steps. And yes, there are boulders in the way and the path is not exactly smooth but marching along anyway. LB: Yeah, that's a tricky thing. It's hard. So, we're coming to the end I think. So, I just want to ask you if there is anything else that you think someday somebody in the future is going to look at this and I think, I hope, that will be the case. And it might be in the near future, it might be many, many years, it might be decades, we might be all gone by them. We had another pandemic about one hundred and two years ago that was very, very serious, and if you came to any of my art history classes I happened to talk about it all the time because it's always in my (inaudible) if you talk to Rachel because she was in almost all my classes, I'm always talking about the flu epidemic of 1918. And one of the reasons was it had such a profound impact on a lot of the areas of art that I've spoken about. And it had an impact on my family because my grandmother died in that flu epidemic. But I think that we don't have any oral histories from that time, we don't have anybody talking about that. And in fact you weren't allowed to talk about that time because it was considered an act of sedition because it was during WWI, and the government had said you can't say anything negative about the country, including that we're all dying of this disease, or you'll go to prison. And so, that's one of the reasons why we don't have a lot of information. Now we do. And we all have the opportunity. They didn't even have recorders then, now we do. So, we have the opportunity to do that. And here's the chance for you to say something to somebody way in the future about what it was like right now, just in general. So, here you go, go ahead. IW: Well, it's challenging, and I think it's important to have hope. And to not be afraid to be a leader. Like there are going to be some people around that say oh, that's foolish, I don't believe in that. And it's important for a person to believe in their own beliefs and have the courage to stand up for them. And hopefully decades from now, hopefully even sooner, things are a lot more equal for us, and I hope that's the case. And if it isn't, I hope the individuals in the future keep on fighting until we do reach equality because we all matter. LB: Yeah, that's for sure. IW: And I think that's something as far as Black Lives Matter that a lot of people are not getting is they think by saying Black Lives Matter is black people are better. No, it's just that there's a realization that we're not being treated equally. So, it's kind of like a black lives matters too, so we all just want to be on the same playing field, the same level. Like LGBT, different people of color, men, women, like we all just want to be equal. And I think that's important. So, if there is a group of people in the future that are not being treated as equal, fight for them. Even if it's not your person. LB: That's good. That's a good thing to tell the future. That's a great thing. IW: Thank you. LB: Thank you so much for this. I really am very, very grateful for this opportunity to talk to you. It's fun to talk to you. I love the room that you're in. IW: Yeah, my new office while all this is happening. LB: Now are those blue and red squares painted on the wall? IW: Yeah. This isn't my room. LB: I love it, I absolutely love it. And I have a master's degree in art, so feel free to have the person who's room that is, tell them I think it's fabulous. It is fabulous. IW: Rachel's daughter, Emily, she did this, this was her room. LB: It's beautiful. IW: I like specifically the chalk, the black squares are chalk, so I get to write on them. LB: Yeah, that's a special kind of paint that you can write on with chalk. I think that's a very good idea. Good for you. I'm going to turn off the recording now. END OF AUDIO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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00:56:26
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Ian Wagner, July 9, 2020
Description
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Ian Wagner talks about the current COVID-19 is affecting him, his friends and family, and the people he lives with, his work as a therapist and not being able to see clients face to face and his new job, how it is affecting LGBTQ people, Black Lives Matter issues, community leadership, learning to bake, and what gives him hope.
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PH40_29
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
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2020-07-09
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg Special Collections and College Archives
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Copyright remains with the interview subject and their heirs.