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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
An account of the resource
In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Liz Bradbury
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Brian Jones
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_09.xml
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5.4 July 9, 2020 Brian Jones, July 9, 2020 PH40_09 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- ; COVID-19 (Disease) Brian Jones Liz Bradbury video/mpeg JonesBrian_20200709_FinalEdit_video.mp4 1.0:|31(14)|56(8)|91(8)|128(5)|163(15)|180(5)|199(5)|218(5)|241(5)|260(9)|281(9)|312(3)|331(15)|354(2)|393(9)|416(11)|437(4)|458(18)|565(5)|584(5)|601(16)|622(9)|649(8)|674(6)|701(8)|718(17)|751(12)|770(4)|805(14)|820(6)|845(18)|870(5)|895(15)|926(4)|957(7)|980(13)|1007(13)|1034(9)|1061(4)|1092(6)|1147(8)|1168(7)|1191(8)|1220(10)|1239(7)|1260(2)|1297(4)|1320(5)|1339(5)|1360(15)|1395(4)|1418(16)|1443(11)|1458(2)|1471(5)|1482(15)|1491(17)|1508(6)|1527(7)|1546(5)|1569(7)|1590(5)|1609(8)|1628(14)|1647(13)|1668(3)|1687(4)|1736(2)|1755(15)|1784(14)|1809(17)|1830(5)|1857(14)|1880(2)|1893(6)|1926(3)|1971(3)|2014(6)|2071(3)|2100(11)|2131(2)|2164(13)|2201(8)|2236(7)|2285(2)|2324(8)|2361(13)|2384(10)|2409(6)|2446(4)|2475(8)|2514(9)|2541(8)|2572(6)|2607(2)|2636(11)|2667(10)|2700(5)|2731(11)|2766(7)|2797(10)|2830(5)|2857(10)|2886(13)|2925(2)|2948(4)|2973(12)|3010(5)|3051(5) 0 https://youtu.be/6PlrM8a4hxg YouTube video English 48 Interview Introductions LB: Yeah, that’s what I’m going to do and I’m going to pin the video on you. So, that’s good, and so that every time I talk and I go “uh-huh” it doesn’t flash back to me because that would be bad. (laughter) So, now we’re on record, that’s good, and we’re on the audio, record, so that’s terrific. [...] 0 206 Connections to LGBTQ+ Community
 ; LB: And, okay, so now -- we have some demographic questions on this. So, what we do want to do is ask people how they identify themselves in the LGBT community. So, do you identify as a gay man or a trans person or a bi person or what do you think? Anything you want to say.
 ; BJ: I identify as a cisgendered gay man. 0 271 Work Life LB: So, we’re going to ask a bunch of questions. And frankly, I’ve got all these prompts. I sent you all of that information. I don’t have to ask you these things individually. And, in fact, I think it’s a little confusing. So, I think you should just talk about how you feel about it and what you think. So, like, you know, have you been -- it looks like you’re at work, so you’re working, so why don’t you talk a little bit about work? 0 454 Status of MCC Lehigh Valley During COVID
 ; LB: [Yes?] [inaudible] [I’ll say?]. So, in terms of this stuff -- oh, wait a minute. That’s not what I want to do. In terms of this stuff, what are you doing at -- because we sort of imagined these interviews as somebody looking at this 30 years from now and they’re saying what was it like during the COVID stuff? So, what are you doing there at the church? Is everything the virtual -- are people coming in at all?
 ; BJ: We --
 ; LB: Are you starting to see anybody there? 0 948 Virtual Worship Services / Changing Modalities LB: Yeah, so do you think that might continue after you’re vaccinated and not a danger, perhaps, maybe, you know?
 ; BJ: I hope so. I’m a firm believer that the model, [00:16:00] the church model that most churches have been following for the last one hundred years, this twentieth century model of how you do church, hasn’t been working for forty years. 0 1064 Connections to Individuals with COVID / Being an Essential Worker
 ; LB: Yeah. How ‘bout you pers-- well, okay, so let’s segue into this. I know a lot of people -- and this is not true for me but I know a lot of people who don’t know anybody that was sick from coronavirus-19. Have there been people -- and I don’t want you to HIPAA them, you know? But I would guess that because the community in the church has a lot of outreach and personal relationships that there have been people who --
 ; BJ: There have been. I personally have lost three people in my family -- 0 1398 Communicating with Family & ; Friends
 ; LB: Yeah. So, do you have other people in your family that you have to sort of help to take care of or is it not that kind of circumstance?
 ; BJ: No, it’s not really that. Everybody is pretty much in clusters, so, you know, my mom and my stepfather and my sister and her kids, they all live in the same house. And, you know, my brother and his family are altogether. And my grandmother who lives with my other cousin. [...] 0 1702 Finding Queer Community During the COVID Era / Finding Ways to Pass the Time LB: Yeah. So, we have all these questions on this list about, you know, like, do you -- are you still finding queer community and stuff. Again, you’re not having any trouble with that. You’re always around all that. 
 ; BJ: [laughs] No, I’m not -- but I see it. I can see it in the people who walk through the door, partially because the queer community, for so many of our folks, is their family.
 ; LB: Right. 0 1894 Working During the COVID Pandemic LB: Do you find, like, right now, there -- I think the world is also divided into two sets of people and it’s people who are working way less and then working actually more.
 ; BJ: Yeah. 0 1987 Switching Things Up / Facing Discrimination
 ; LB: (inaudible) (laughter) absolutely. And so, (coughs) and wait a minute, let me cough a little bit here. (laughter) So, do you think that, I mean, you’re talking about how this has affected you and how -- you’re talking about content that you’re doing and doing more outreach to people. What could you describe as, like, the one thing that’s totally different that you’re doing before that turns out that it works pretty well? I mean, you’re talking a lot about outreach but you were already kind of doing that at MCC through Zoom or whatever you were using as a visual platform. What do you think about that? 0 2121 Getting Zoombombed
 ; BJ: [...] But it seems to be working. I mean, we got our first Zoom bomb last week on bible study. So, somebody knows about it. (laughs)
 ; LB: So, tell about that because people -- 0 2474 COVID's Effect on Mental Health LB: And that’s definitely the case. So, yeah. So, for you, personally, you think this is a -- and you’re sort of expressing this, that this is influencing your mental health, I would guess. It’s certainly doing mine.
 ; BJ: Oh, absolutely. You know, when this first started -- I’m a fairly even-keeled person. I’m well put together, I’ve -- you know, everybody has their issues but I can deal with a lot of stuff. [...] 0 2824 Dr. Rachel Levine / Politics LB: And I think -- now, one of -- things we’re lucky about in our community and in our Lehigh [00:51:00] Valley and also in the whole state of Pennsylvania is we have a wonderful secretary of health in my opinion. And it’s been positive and I think it’s been positive for -- have you felt that way? I mean, to have Dr. Rachel Levine speaking as a trans woman but also speaking as the incredible voice of science and reason.
 ; BJ: Yeah, for me it has been -- Dr. Levine has been just a voice of reason and of competence.
 ; 0 3141 Black Lives Matter Movement LB: Okay, great. Well, I do want to talk about Black Lives Matter and I’d love to hear what you want to talk about because I think in the world, in the United States today, we’ve got political issues, we’ve got this terrible pandemic, and we also have some very significant race issues that people need to be talking about. And so, what do you want to say about that? I mean, people may not know that 30 years from now and they may not understand that, so let’s talk about that.
 ; 0 3783 Intersectionality of Being Black & ; Gay in the Lehigh Valley BJ: I had not been that angry before. Like, I remember saying to Goudy that -- Goudy is the pastor at MCC Lehigh Valley. And I remember saying to them, “I can’t do this right now. I can’t be here right now because I’m about to pop.” (laughs)
 ; LB: Yeah.
 ; 0 4259 Finding Hope LB: I appreciate that. So, I guess that we’re at the end here and, you know, if you want to go on, that’s -- or I’ll give you some more time to say whatever you want to say. But I did want to ask you, you know, sort of in the end thing: what’s the thing, you know, what’s giving you hope, what kind of hope and strength are you getting from anything now that we just talked about all the annoying people that -- [laughter] [calling you?] up with their they’re desperately hav-- I have to feel good because -- so, I’m going to talk to Brian, so -- [laughter] 
 ; 0 4573 Allen High School GSA / 2000 Pride Festival LB: That’s great. Well, I, you know, I think of you as a very young person because I knew you when you were so young. [laughter] And did you go to Allen High School? You went to Allen High School.
 ; BJ: I did, I did. 0 5215 Importance of Visibility & ; Community
 ; BJ: -- and open. You take the lumps that you’re going to get and you just keep on moving. I mean, it’s -- and I would ask you a question. Do you know, do you and Trish understand -- I know you do ; it’s just philosophical -- but I really think that what y’all do, what we do, what people like Steve Libby do, you know, what we do is life and death.
 ; LB: Yeah.
 ; BJ: Literal life and death.
 ; LB: I do know that’s true. 0 5434 MCC Lehigh Valley / Faith Community
 ; LB: Oh, you’ve done a great job at MCC. You know, I’m still recommending people to go to MCC. People will call me up and they’ll say -- and they’ve done this for years, because I’ve been answering the info line for twenty-two years. People call up and they’ll say, “I want to meet more people in the community.” Or, “I want a support group.” Now, we have support groups sort of now but not for just -- and I say, “You really need a support group or you just need to meet more queer people? [laughter] [Like?], meet other lesbians, for example.” And I’ll say, “You know, how do you feel about church?” “Yeah, I don’t have any problem with that.” “Okay, well, why don’t you go to MCC?” “Because they have to be nice to you there. It’s [work?]. (laughter) And they’ll shake your hand and then you can sit in the back.” And also, it’s every week. So, it’s not like, well, if I don’t have the nerve to do it this week -- 0 5737 Making Connections in the LGBTQ+ Community BJ: I would love to get your perspective on this. Even before COVID, had you been getting a sense that the LGBT community had -- I’ve kind of been getting the sense that the LGBT community had been coming -- disjointed. Not disjointed but -- that’s not the word I want to use. Disconnected. So, long-time institutions within our area closed over the last couple years. So, in cases like Diamonz and, like, 12th Street, what was it called? The bar on Twelfth Street.
 ; LB: Candida’s. 0 6468 Closing Remarks LB: [...] So, anyway, we’ve gone over the time but I loved talking to you! (laughter) And I’m so grateful that you’ve done this and it’s been wonderful to walk down memory lane, back to twenty years ago when we were --
 ; BJ: Twenty years ago! 0 MovingImage Brian Jones talks about the current COVID19 is affecting him and his family, his work at Metropolitan Community Church of the Lehigh Valley, how it is affecting LGBTQ people, Black Lives Matter issues, and what gives him hope Brian Jones 2020-07-09 LIZ BRADBURY: -- also, I'm recording on the computer and I can see that's going. I'm going to start the audio recording now, too, and that's good. So, I'm going to read you this stuff. This is the same stuff that I sent you in an email and it's -- oh, turn off my phone. (laughs) BRIAN JONES: [Well, my?] phone's on silent. LB: Okay, that's smart. I have to turn mine off because I'm still -- I don't like to turn it off until I get you, in case you have to call me. So, there you go. And I'm going to pin you. So, let's see, how do we do that pinning thing? Wait a minute. BJ: Think you -- LB: Yeah, that's what I'm going to do and I'm going to pin the video on you. So, that's good, and so that every time I talk and I go "uh-huh" it doesn't flash back to me because that would be bad. (laughter) So, now we're on record, that's good, and we're on the audio, record, so that's terrific. So, with this project, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community, collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. And, let's see, I did all the stuff I'm supposed to do. My name is Liz Bradbury and I'm here with Brian Jones to talk about his experiences in the Lehigh Valley community during this time of the COVID pandemic as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archives. Our project was funded from the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium. We are meeting on Zoom and this date is Thursday, July 9th, 2020. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today, Brian. And to start, can I please ask you to state your full name and spell it for me? BJ: My name is Brian Jones, spelled B-R-I-A-N J-O-N-E-S. LB: Great. And what is your birth date? BJ: June 5th, 1984. LB: Okay, and I also want to ask you: so, you're in Bethlehem now, I can tell by the background. BJ: Mm-hmm, [that's?] (inaudible) LB: Is that correct. I'm just going to write that in. Okay, that's good, because we have to put that in the metadata. Okay, so now, this is the consent part. Do you consent to this interview today? BJ: I do, yes. LB: Okay, wait a minute. Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable formats? BJ: Yes. LB: Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats including films, archives, websites, presentations, and other formats? BJ: Yes. LB: Yes. Do you understand that you will have thirty days after the electronic delivery of the transcript, which means delivery to you, to review your interview and identify parts you would like to delete or change or withdraw your whole interview? You think, oh, I hate this, I'm going to -- but please don't do that -- withdraw it from the project. BJ: I -- yes, I do. LB: Okay. BJ: Yeah. LB: And, okay, so now -- we have some demographic questions on this. So, what we do want to do is ask people how they identify themselves in the LGBT community. So, do you identify as a gay man or a trans person or a bi person or what do you think? Anything you want to say. BJ: I identify as a cisgendered gay man. LB: Okay. Okay, what's your ZIP code? BJ: My home ZIP code? LB: Well, yeah, where you live. BJ: Where I work? Oh, I never know that. LB: No, where you live. BJ: Oh, where I live -- LB: Where you -- BJ: -- 18052. LB: Okay. And how old are you? BJ: I'm thirty-six. LB: Okay, and I've known you a long time, Brian. BJ: Yeah, since I was at least fifteen. (laughs) LB: Yeah. How do you identify with the -- oh, I already asked you that. Okay. And so, in general, what -- so, I don't have to write that. Oh, I see why that's going -- this is my first COVID interview, so that's why I'm going slow here. BJ: Okay. LB: So, we're going to ask a bunch of questions. And frankly, I've got all these prompts. I sent you all of that information. I don't have to ask you these things individually. And, in fact, I think it's a little confusing. So, I think you should just talk about how you feel about it and what you think. So, like, you know, have you been -- it looks like you're at work, so you're working, so why don't you talk a little bit about work? BJ: Okay. Well, I work for Metropolitan Community Church of the Lehigh Valley in Bethlehem. And it's a congregation that primarily serves the LGBT community here in the Lehigh Valley. And I think, like a lot of organizations, non-profits, everybody, (laughs) we're doing the best that we can with the situation. LB: Yeah. BJ: It has been very interesting, difficult, disconcerting when your job is about community, when your everything that you do revolves around a community of people gathering and being able to support each other through the gatherings, whether it be during a Sunday morning service or a program that's after -- throughout the week or whatever it might be. When that is what you do, primarily, when you lose that, your communal identity suffers and goes through changes. You as a professional who is responsible for helping to create community, you kind of go through a -- what's your purpose, what am I doing, how do I do this kind of thing? So, it has been, work has been quite interesting for me, personally, at MCC Lehigh Valley, trying to maintain the ship, trying to keep things moving and going, but also mourning the loss of that connectivity, of those things you look for, too, throughout the week. LB: Right. BJ: It has been very -- it's been more isolating for me than I thought it was going to be. At heart, I am extreme introvert. (laughs) So, I'm used to -- I'm very, very comfortable being alone. I'm very comfortable being in isolation. But this is a whole 'nother ball game. (laughs) LB: [Yes?] (inaudible) [I'll say?]. So, in terms of this stuff -- oh, wait a minute. That's not what I want to do. In terms of this stuff, what are you doing at -- because we sort of imagined these interviews as somebody looking at this 30 years from now and they're saying what was it like during the COVID stuff? So, what are you doing there at the church? Is everything the virtual -- are people coming in at all? BJ: We -- LB: Are you starting to see anybody there? BJ: We are -- so, when we were in the red phase and the yellow phase, we were primarily doing everything online. And we are still doing almost absolutely everything online. Our worship services, we actually added another service in the week that we do online, on a Thursday. And all of our educational stuff is online. Since we've moved into the green phase, we have opened up the worship service to an extremely limited number of people. So, we only allow twenty-five people into the space and they must maintain social distancing. They don't come in until fifteen minutes before the service begins and as soon as it's over, they are out the door. And they are spread out throughout the sanctuary. That is the only real time that we have numbers of people come into the space. LB: They're wearing masks and stuff? BJ: Yeah, they're all masked. So, they're only in one Sunday, one day a week, on Sundays. And, you know, we did all the measurements and stuff in the sanctuary and we pretty much came to the conclusion that to give six foot radius around a person or a couple or, you know, whatever it might be, we really can only fit, max, thirty people into this space. It's a large room but when you count in twelve feet around somebody, it's a completely different ballgame. So, we -- they're masked, they come in, they sit, they're assigned seats, so that we, you know, we put them, we put the people where they can maintain social distancing. They're not able to get up and just go do what -- you know, it's a massive cultural shift, specifically for this community, which -- you know, the LGBT community is a close community. When you get in your pockets, you become really close to people. LB: Sure. BJ: And it's quite interesting to watch everybody have -- people who look at each other as family having to maintain that distance. You know, and in the Christian church context of things and how we handle worship, I'm the worship director, the musical workshop director here. And it's weird, you know? Music and singing and whatnot is very important to the Christian experience and act of worship and they're not allowed to sing. So, it's very, very weird to have people in a sanctuary when you are -- I've been doing this since I was a kid. I mean, we've known each other since I was a teenager. LB: Right. BJ: And I was doing it before I met you and I think I met you when I was fifteen. LB: Yes. BJ: So, I've been doing this for a long time and I have never led worship in a sanctuary with people in a room where they weren't singing back at me. LB: Yeah. BJ: Or they weren't doing the liturgy or anything like that. So, they're prohibited from doing that. I'm the only person in the room, when we're singing, who's singing. LB: Yeah, yeah. BJ: So, it's very interesting. It's a very weird experience. It's changed a lot and, you know, the process that we're trying to figure out right now is how do we maintain a sense of community with one another? And, you know, we're trying to get there, we're struggling, just like everybody else is. LB: Yeah, yeah. BJ: You know? And the options for people in a church setting, the options for people have quadrupled because they're all at home. So, you can, if you want to watch a worship experience, you know, places that were -- you know, we don't like using the words competition but we're, you know, it's a reality. And places that were never competition for us before are now competition for us. So, we're dealing with all that stuff. LB: I don't know that people in the future will understand what you mean by that but you're talking about, like, there's television church things that people can watch. BJ: Yep, and there's television church, there's, like, professional televangelist kind of church stuff. But, at the same time, the church around the corner from us, you know, who was not online four months ago is online now. LB: [Yeah, that's a good point?] -- BJ: So, you know, every church that is still trying to maintain has all -- every church has become a broadcast church. So, you know, people and places and things you had never seen before, you now can see and you're dealing with that. So, the need to improve your content, the need to -- it's conversations we have never had before, the need to improve your content, improve your quality, to improve, you know, what it looks like, what it sounds like, what it feels like are real conversations that we're having at the local church level -- LB: Right. BJ: -- you know, that megachurches would have. But at the local church level, when you have a congregation of maybe 100 people, you're not really having that conversation. But now, you are, so -- LB: Right, it's pretty interesting. It's a different thing. Of course, megachurches are now in that circumstance where they were broadcasting and then everybody's broadcasting -- BJ: Yeah, yeah. LB: -- so I wonder if that's influencing them, too -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- some ways. BJ: Yeah. LB: It's a whole different story. BJ: But the other thing is that what it has done for us, though -- I mean, we've had our online presence for a while. LB: Right. BJ: We were well-positioned to make this change, to be able to facilitate this change, and to facilitate it at a level, a quality level that other churches our size really couldn't do and a lot of them still aren't able to do it. But we can do multiple cameras and, you know, all that different kind of -- so, we have that going for us. But what it has done -- you know, our focus had been so much on the Lehigh Valley but we now have people who are engaging with us and worshipping with us who are in Poland and who are in Germany and who are in Canada and who are -- you know, so we're getting people from all over the place who are engaging with MCC Lehigh Valley. LB: Yeah, so do you think that might continue after you're vaccinated and not a danger, perhaps, maybe, you know? BJ: I hope so. I'm a firm believer that the model, the church model that most churches have been following for the last one hundred years, this twentieth century model of how you do church, hasn't been working for forty years. LB: Sure. BJ: And it became this -- not to get political but it became this capitalist kind of numbers game and that's what the value was, and how many people you'd get through the door, not, you know, how -- that's what it became. And when it becomes about that, it actually stops becoming about people and it actually stops becoming about what you're supposed to be doing. So, I think what has happened with COVID is that it has peeled back layers of institutionalism and systems that are about power and things like that. It's pulled back those layers of things and it's exposed you for who you actually are and what you actually can do. And it's making you, as a -- it's making us, as a community and as -- the church as a universal -- have to really step back and reexamine how we do what we do. LB: Yeah. BJ: And I think for the better. I think for the better. LB: Yeah. How 'bout you pers-- well, okay, so let's segue into this. I know a lot of people -- and this is not true for me but I know a lot of people who don't know anybody that was sick from coronavirus-19. Have there been people -- and I don't want you to HIPAA them, you know? But I would guess that because the community in the church has a lot of outreach and personal relationships that there have been people who -- BJ: There have been. I personally have lost three people in my family -- LB: Really? BJ: -- to COVID, yeah. LB: Oh, my gosh. BJ: The realities for minority communities -- LB: Yeah. BJ: (inaudible) Black communities, you know, those numbers that were coming out from the Black community about the spread of COVID, they weren't false statistics. The Black community has been hit really hard by COVID. LB: Yeah. BJ: And I lost a cousin, Eddie. I lost another cousin, Jaime. And I lost another cousin, [Sheila?]. LB: Oh, my gosh. BJ: Yeah, it was -- it's been very -- it's been a hard few months, because, you know, I've never mourned this way before. And in part, because in my family I'm a spiritual leader. I'm not just one for MCC Lehigh Valley but I'm a patriarch in my family already. And so, when something happens, I respond to those things. If there's a funeral in the family, well, somebody's going to call me to provide some kind of -- either music or song or help lead the service or whatnot. So, you know, I've done, so far, at least 10 funerals that were COVID funerals. LB: Yeah. BJ: I generally, in a year, might do fourteen or fifteen funerals. I've already done seventeen funerals this year -- LB: Gosh. BJ: -- ten of which were COVID funerals, three of which were my family. LB: Oh, golly. BJ: And eight of those funerals, eight, maybe -- I've been keeping these numbers in my head. Nine of those funerals that I did were on Zoom. LB: Yeah. BJ: (laughs) So, you know, it's a whole 'nother -- the thing that I will say about what COVID has done to my family and me personally is that it has taken away the ability for family to be family when you absolutely need family to be family, you know, when you got to watch your grandmother cry at a funeral through a Zoom video, it's a little -- it's tough, you know? LB: Right. BJ: So, I personally have lost three people. I know -- and they were -- so, in my family altogether that I know of, eight people have had COVID. Three of them did not make it. The other five have made it, two of which are really -- they're on the other side of it but it really is a beast for them. A couple of them, my two cousins who were positive for it, they didn't even know they were positive for it. Like, they didn't even -- they had no symptoms whatsoever. And because they were all in the same house, they got tested and they were positive, but nothing. They never had a symptom, never had any issues, nothing. But my uncle and my other cousin really struggled through it. Really struggled through it. So, yeah. LB: So, are you, in your own household, are you by yourself in your household, do you have other people in your household? What's -- BJ: It's just me, my husband, and my dog. LB: Okay. (laughter) Okay. BJ: Yes. LB: So, the two of you -- does he have to work, too? because you have to go out -- BJ: Yeah, we're both essential employees. So, I'm essential by nature of the church work. But I can work -- I can satellite from home more often than I can't. He works in warehouse work. LB: Oh. BJ: So, he goes in every day. My husband is the hardest working guy I know. Goes in every single day. And he was working for another company in the Lehigh Valley that he actually was a higher-up in. He was in, like, a management level. And when COVID first hit, the company didn't seem to be taking it seriously. And, you know, they were starting to get cases in the warehouse but they weren't reporting them, they weren't telling the employees that they were getting the cases. But then, the employees all knew because they all know each other. So, they would all -- like, somebody would get test, would be tested positive. And, you know, they would send a Facebook message to folks, "Listen, I tested positive for this. I'm going to be gone for a while." But nobody in the higher-ups would say anything. So, he and his department, a person in his department, tested positive -- that he was running. So, it was his department of, like, six or seven people. This person tested positive, had been close to all of them, and called out -- the company did not tell them but they knew because the person told them. So, they all quarantined themselves and they -- only two of them went back. My husband decided he's not -- they're not taking it seriously. LB: Did you say that your husband tested positive or he was tested? BJ: He was tested and he was negative but he stayed in quarantine because the person who had contracted it -- so, you know, he decided he just -- he wasn't going back there. He wasn't staying there. So, he moved to another warehouse where he is not a higher-up anymore. He's just a grunt at this point. But, you know, this place where he's at now, they're taking everything seriously, they have all the PPE, they have all the cleaning, the sanitizing stations and all that different kind of stuff. So, yeah, so we have -- it's just us and, you know, we both realize that because we both have to go out for work, him more than me, you know, he realizes that he's exposed, even with all the protection that they can give. But we've developed a whole system at home on how to come into the house and how to, you know, sanitize yourself and, you know, before you come in and get your clothes off and all that different kind of stuff, so -- LB: Right, yeah. BJ: -- just become a way of the world, I guess. (laughs) LB: Right, it has. We hardly go out at all. But if we bring things in -- I mean, once in a while, I have to go to the Center, I have to -- we had to go to a doctor's appointment or something like that. We come in and we take off all our clothes, wash all our clothes. BJ: Yeah. LB: It's -- you have to do that and -- BJ: What we do, like, we try to order as much into the house as we possibly can and try to avoid going out any more than we absolutely have to. LB: Yeah. BJ: You know? LB: Yeah. So, do you have other people in your family that you have to sort of help to take care of or is it not that kind of circumstance? BJ: No, it's not really that. Everybody is pretty much in clusters, so, you know, my mom and my stepfather and my sister and her kids, they all live in the same house. And, you know, my brother and his family are altogether. And my grandmother who lives with my other cousin. And so, everybody is all together. The weird thing is that everybody, my mom, my sister, they're all essential employees. So, my mom works for -- she's a care worker and my sister is, also. And my brother is a warehouse worker at my grandmother's, where my cousin, she's a nurse. So, everybody, we're -- everybody's out. And we're not just out but they're out in places where they can very well be exposed, so -- LB: Golly, that's really -- BJ: Yeah. (laughs) LB: I guess you're the perfect first interview to have. (laughter) I was afraid, you know, people, like, "Well, yeah, I'm not really going out" and -- BJ: (laughs) No. LB: (laughs) So, are you using, like, video technology with your family, too, like other people? BJ: Not really. We've been doing -- we've been mostly text and phone. LB: Yeah. BJ: You know, if we see each other, you know, my mom will come over to the apart-- to where we live but won't come in. So, we'll, like, we'll sit out in our yard and just chat. Or my brother and his kids will come over and the kids'll just run around the yard and we'll all sit out and grill or whatever. But we're trying to, like, maintain those familial relationships but also -- you know, it's weird to not be able to give my mom a kiss. LB: I know. BJ: (laughs) It's so weird. I think that might be the hardest part of it. Like, there are two people in the world who I -- when I see them, I must absolutely embrace them. LB: Yeah. BJ: And it's my mom and my husband and it's been so, like, so weird to not be able to do that. LB: Yeah, yeah. BJ: Yeah. LB: Yeah, I think, actually, if you can -- I think about people who are living alone -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- all the time and how must -- how that's just so hard. BJ: We, at MCC Lehigh Valley, one of the main reasons we decided that we had to at least open up the worship experience to a select -- a small number of people -- because there are so many people in the LGBT community who are, even in the best of times, isolated. LB: Yeah. BJ: And to be completely isolated from everything must be very difficult. I was talking to my guitar player here and -- single guy, lives alone, and I was asking him, you know, "How is this? How's it been?" He was, like, "It's been extremely hard." And he's someone with -- who does not have any emotional circumstances or anything like that and he's, like, "This is really hard on your mentality. It's really, really hard." So, I can't imagine. I really can't imagine going through it without anybody. LB: Yeah, I can't either. It's so hard. I mean, I have a sister who -- I taught her how to use Zoom so that I could talk to her. And I became aware, I said to my -- to Trish, "I have to talk to her more" because she's by herself and she's -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- so much older than I am, so she's really by herself. BJ: Yeah. LB: She does have friends where she is and she can go to their yard and stuff like that. But, yeah, it's tough. BJ: It's tough. LB: Yeah. BJ: It's tough. LB: Yeah. So, we have all these questions on this list about, you know, like, do you -- are you still finding queer community and stuff. Again, you're not having any trouble with that. You're always around all that. BJ: (laughs) No, I'm not -- but I see it. I can see it in the people who walk through the door, partially because the queer community, for so many of our folks, is their family. LB: Right. BJ: I mean, for so many of our folks. And I don't think we still -- I think we like to think, a lot of the times, be in this -- in 2020 that people are -- that things are somehow better than they were 20 or 30 years ago. And in many, many, many ways they are. They absolutely are. But people still lose their families, people still lose friends and, you know, all that different kind of stuff by affirming who they really are. And the need for the LGBT community to be community is still a primary need. It's still a primary need for us to be family for each other. So, that loss of not being able to go to Stonewall or not being able to go to, you know -- it's a big loss. LB: Yeah, right, right. BJ: It's a big loss. LB: Yeah. Yeah, it really is. So, are you doing anything that's -- besides, you know, your behavior is different, are you doing different things? You're thinking, like, let's start a new hobby because we can't go out and do these things. Seems like you've got a lot of stuff that you do, so I would guess that that's not something that you're doing, I don't know. BJ: I'm just getting better at trying to, well, trying to get better at the things I already know how to do. So, like the broadcasting -- creating content and broadcasting stuff and learning how to use all of those different softwares and things like that. I'm just trying to dig into that because I think it's going to be a vital part of where we go for the next couple years, you know? And so, that's what I'm doing. But I did, because we did just move to Whitehall and we have a little spot at our place that has a little garden nook. So, I decided, well, I got some time and let's get dirty. So, I started a little garden there. So, that's something new for me that I never did before. (laughs) LB: Do you find, like, right now, there -- I think the world is also divided into two sets of people and it's people who are working way less and then working actually more. BJ: Yeah. LB: You think you fall into either of those categories? BJ: I've been doing this at MCC for fifteen years now and I've worked really hard. LB: Yeah. BJ: I've never worked harder than I am working right now. LB: Yeah, yeah. BJ: I've never put in as much time as I'm putting in now. I've always done more hours and more time than what I'm supposed to do in a week. But the need is so high right now and, like I said before, my work has been to keep the ship running and keep us online and keep the content coming and all the different kind of stuff. So, it's just from one service to the next service, it's just trying to produce the next thing and produce the next thing. I mean, we're literally producing right now what amounts to two-and-a-half hours of television. (laughs) LB: Yeah. BJ: And that doesn't sound like a lot but that's a lot. (laughs) That's a lot. You know, there are people whose full time job is just to do one hour of something. (laughs) LB: Sure, half hour. BJ: Yeah. LB: (inaudible) (laughter) absolutely. And so, (coughs) and wait a minute, let me cough a little bit here. (laughter) So, do you think that, I mean, you're talking about how this has affected you and how -- you're talking about content that you're doing and doing more outreach to people. What could you describe as, like, the one thing that's totally different that you're doing before that turns out that it works pretty well? I mean, you're talking a lot about outreach but you were already kind of doing that at MCC through Zoom or whatever you were using as a visual platform. What do you think about that? BJ: What is new that we're doing that is working well? LB: So, I'm, like -- so, like, at some point, you might be going, like, let's try to do it this way and it turns out, wow, that turned out to be great! (laughter) Let's do that! Let's do more of that! Because we're finding that at the Center. We're finding certain things that we didn't -- like, we didn't think we'd be able to do any arts and cultural things. It turns out that that's been huge. The book club has gone from, like, six people to fifteen people. BJ: Oh, wow. LB: So, we've added all these other, like, author reading events and we have a poetry club now and, you know, where people talk about reading poetry books because they've been very, very successful. It's turned out to be very successful to do that. We have so many things we can't fit them into all of our social media platforms -- BJ: Okay. LB: -- which is interesting. BJ: Oh, I wish there was more that we were doing in that way. I mean, we have shifted most of the things that we were already doing as far as people connecting to each other to Zoom or to online, our Sunday schools, our education -- all of that stuff is online. I think we're surprised that that's working, just by the -- like, our bible study stuff, just by the nature of what it is it kind of feels like it's better to be in the room to be able to do it. But it seems to be working. I mean, we got our first Zoom bomb last week on bible study. So, somebody knows about it. (laughs) LB: So, tell about that because people -- BJ: I was not part of it. I was not there. I got the email after the fact. But we got what a lot of minority communities are getting with these Zoom bombs. So, we got at least -- I think it was some -- I think [Gaudi?] said something like ten people -- LB: Wow! BJ: -- chimed into the Zoom and they were writing, on the screens, anti-LGBT sentiments. LB: (inaudible) and this is in bible study? BJ: This was during our bible study. LB: Oh, gracious. BJ: So, what happened was they closed the Zoom meeting down and then they started it up again and created a waiting room so that nobody could just come in. And, you know, we did a check in with everybody who was there to make sure that, you know, they were okay -- LB: Yeah. BJ: -- and spent some time decompressing from that and then went back to bible study. You know, again, this new reality, people have really figured out how to be shitty. (laughs) LB: No kidding. No kidding. And, you know, just to put this in context, because I appreciate you talking about this, but, I mean, this is the sanctuary. This is the church. This is where people are supposed to go and feel totally supported and accepted and safe. And then, somebody does this in the bible study, for heaven's sakes. I mean, it's like a joke, you know? Like, if it wasn't so horribly serious and terrible, it could be like this joke. Guess what happened in bible study today? (laughter) You know? BJ: You know, Liz, the thing that -- I have seen people act their absolute best during this. I've seen humanity at its, like, okay, okay, here we go. And then, I've seen, like, just absolute depth of evilness through all of this. LB: Yeah, yeah. BJ: So, yeah, nothing really surprises me anymore. LB: Yeah. BJ: In fact, I -- this could be part of the conversation because I -- part of what I think COVID has done is also desensitized some of us to some of this stuff because there's such an onslaught of it that you just, oh, okay, just another day -- LB: [Crazy?] thing, yeah. BJ: Yeah. You know, a year ago, something like that had happened at MCC Lehigh Valley, the alarm bells would have gone off and, you know, all the wagons would have circled and all that. And right now, yeah, like, there was no -- there was, I think because so many of us are exhausted, (laughs) there was no, like, real -- there was a response, we dealt with it, we did what we had to do, we kept moving on. But normally, we would have, like, an outcry. LB: Yeah. BJ: And -- LB: So, did you think that that happened because you had posted the Zoom connection, the Zoom link in a public place and then people just got through it? Or -- BJ: I think so. LB: -- somebody that you send it out to actually leak it or somebody, like, in their household or something leak it? BJ: It could have been a bunch of things. You know, this happened -- when did we do -- we had Susan Wild -- LB: Oh, yeah, that was just last week. BJ: Just this past week. LB: Yeah. BJ: So, Susan Wild, congresswoman for this area, what I kind of think happened was we posted that and we sent that out to a bunch of places. LB: Yeah. BJ: And I believe that Susan Wild's offices sent that out, as well. So, I think that got our Zoom account out to a bunch of places. (laughs) LB: Got you on the radar. BJ: Yeah, got us on the radar of people. LB: All over the country, really -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- which is a very significant -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- yeah. BJ: And you never, I mean, people who like you are on your mailing list and the people who want to see you gone are on your mailing list, you know? LB: Right. BJ: So, everybody gets everything. So, it could have been a number of things. LB: Yeah. What a shock. I didn't even know that happened, you know? BJ: Yeah. LB: That's what I'm saying, because, like, you're right, if this had happened, like, two years ago, we would have been all coming out and doing (laughter) [if somebody had?] come into the church and done a -- well, I've done that! BJ: Yeah. LB: Trish and John are like -- "What is -- Liz and Trish doing in the church?" Said, "Well, you guys got, you know" -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- "got the anti-people out there," so we're there, you know? BJ: Yeah. LB: That's what we'll do. And now, we're, ah, what the heck, [it's happening?]. BJ: (laughs) Yeah, you know? LB: Gosh. I guess -- BJ: How things have changed, yeah. (laughs) LB: Yeah, there are times when -- and, I don't know, I guess we have to realize that this kind of discrimination happens to people all the time. And the older you are, the more you know -- [in this?] -- where it's happened. BJ: Yeah. LB: And that's definitely the case. So, yeah. So, for you, personally, you think this is a -- and you're sort of expressing this, that this is influencing your mental health, I would guess. It's certainly doing mine. BJ: Oh, absolutely. You know, when this first started -- I'm a fairly even-keeled person. I'm well put together, I've -- you know, everybody has their issues but I can deal with a lot of stuff. And I do not have a history of panic attacks or anxiety attacks or anything like that. When this first started for, like, the first month, I was not sleeping and part of it was -- I mean, every time I would try to doze off, I could feel my heart start racing and everything started, like -- and just anxiety to fall asleep because, like, if I fall asleep and I -- if I fall asleep, it's going to get me. (laughs) You know, it's that kind of thing. LB: Yeah. BJ: I'm going to wake up tomorrow and things are going to be completely different. The first couple months were really hard. The number of times having to hold my husband to sleep at night because he's, you know, breaking down, you know? And I had my breakdown, too, my crying fit, mostly wrapped around our families because we're very close to our families and not being able to go see them was really difficult, and worrying about them. It did very much wear on my mental health for a while. Now, I'm better. I think it's had time, the shock of it all has had time to settle in, and the reality that this is life for the time being has had time to settle in. The thing I think I'm struggling with right now that I'm trying to get under control for myself, just for my own personal day-to-day, is trying to get over being angry. because I don't know about you but -- LB: Oh, yeah, I'm furious. BJ: -- I am -- LB: I'm angry all the time, yeah. BJ: -- all the time. LB: Yeah. BJ: How in the hell did we get here? LB: Right. BJ: How did this happen and how do we have such ineptitude in our systems and things that should be dealing with this stuff and the anger of the ignorance of people. LB: Right. BJ: Of the lack of empathy and compassion. LB: Yeah. BJ: You know? This is a time capsule, right? So, the number of people who during this pandemic that have just decided that selfishness is the way to go. LB: Yeah, shocking. BJ: That not being concerned about the other person is good, that -- you know, and I work in the church community. And, you know, MCC Lehigh Valley is a very progressive, inclusive congregation. But I can tell you that from -- in the church world, church universal not MCC Lehigh Valley but just church universal, you know, you got some wing bats. (laughs) You got a lot of them who, for some reason, they can't deal with science, they can't deal with just the realities of how the world works because it's contrary to what a book says, which is not true in the first place but -- LB: Right. BJ: -- (laughs) but they've convinced themselves of that. So, you know, if the doctor is not a spokesperson for God so I'm not going to listen to what the doctor says, you know? Are you -- what? (laughs) LB: Yeah, yeah. BJ: It's, like, what? LB: Yeah, what? Yeah. BJ: It's, like, what? LB: Yeah. BJ: So, you know, a lot of this, I firmly believe that a lot of this insanity that we're dealing with -- my grandmother used to tell me that church folk are the worst folk. (laughter) And I've worked and been in church all my life and I agree with her. So, a lot of what we're dealing with in this country, in this Christian country -- LB: Yeah. BJ: -- if we didn't have so many self-righteous religious folk, we might be in a better situation. (laughs) LB: Yeah. It's interesting in that people don't always understand the concept of faith -- so, faith doesn't mean you just believe in things that aren't true just because you want it to be that way. (laughter) You know? BJ: Yeah. LB: And I think -- now, one of -- things we're lucky about in our community and in our Lehigh Valley and also in the whole state of Pennsylvania is we have a wonderful secretary of health in my opinion. And it's been positive and I think it's been positive for -- have you felt that way? I mean, to have Dr. Rachel Levine speaking as a trans woman but also speaking as the incredible voice of science and reason. BJ: Yeah, for me it has been -- Dr. Levine has been just a voice of reason and of competence. LB: Yeah. BJ: And, for me, her being a trans woman is just icing on the cake for me. But I'm just happy that there is an adult in the room. (laughs) You know, I'm happy that our -- the governor has put someone in a position that knows what they're talking about and is not going to be bent by needing to be liked or needing to meet some political agenda or anything like that, is just going to tell you, from what they know, from their expertise, what is real and what is not. And Dr. Levine has been that in Pennsylvania. And thank God for her because, you know, looking at some of these other places, some of these other states who have just sheep (laughs) in leadership positions? LB: I think that's a generous way of describing -- BJ: Yeah. (laughs) So, you know, Dr. Levine has been just competence. That's all I'm looking for right now: somebody who is competent. LB: Yeah, I just read -- now this is a little bit of -- partisan, but I can say that the candidate who is running against the President of the United States had -- and there's a meme that says, "I will read you my positions on all of these issues." And the response at the bottom is, "You had me at 'I will read.'" (laughter) So, you know, I mean, there is something to be said for somebody who is a leader, whether it's Governor Wolf here in Pennsylvania or Dr. Rachel Levine who gets up and, you know, "Where are the kits?" We're looking to somebody who'd come forward and say, "Okay, calm down." BJ: Yeah. LB: "These are the situations. Yes, this is hard." And if you look at the history of -- you know, the recent history of the last two hundred years, when we have people who are in leadership and they can calm the people down, they can say, "We have to work hard" -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- "we have to work together." BJ: Yeah. LB: "And this is dangerous but we're going to deal with it." BJ: That's just -- LB: "And I'm in it with you." That's what we want! That's all we want! BJ: It's -- LB: And [we're going to take that?] from either side of the aisle but we're not getting that. BJ: It doesn't matter which side. No, I mean, the -- I was, when the pandemic first started, I would occasionally be going to MCC or from MCC. And where I was living before, I had to go by Bucky Boyle. And I would occasionally just go to Bucky Boyle and sit there and look at the river. And I remember, distinctly remember the day that former President Obama put out his support for Biden, for the candidate, that I pulled over and he came on live. LB: Yeah. BJ: And he just looked at the camera and started talking. And he was talking about the pandemic, he was talking about all this different stuff, and I distinctly remember my body changing. I distinctly remember my shoulders relaxing and my jaw stopped being tense and I'm, like, oh! LB: Yeah. BJ: This is what a leader actually sounds like. This is what somebody -- this is how you tell people, you know, this is going to suck but we can make it. This is how you do it. I'm, like, that's all we need -- I don't need to like you. (laughs) I just need you to tell me that we know what we're doing, you know? And we don't have that. We don't have that right now. LB: We're in the middle of a time, and we're coming to the end of this, but -- and, you know, we can go for a little bit longer. I actually have more time. It depends. But I know that you've got a lot of stuff to do. BJ: I got a little time, yeah. (laughs) LB: Okay, great. Well, I do want to talk about Black Lives Matter and I'd love to hear what you want to talk about because I think in the world, in the United States today, we've got political issues, we've got this terrible pandemic, and we also have some very significant race issues that people need to be talking about. And so, what do you want to say about that? I mean, people may not know that 30 years from now and they may not understand that, so let's talk about that. BJ: So, this brother, George Floyd, is executed in the streets -- and long execution. They -- not -- the people who murdered him didn't even have the decency to end his life quickly. LB: Yeah. BJ: He had enough time to use his few last breaths to call out to his mother, to call out to his dead mother. And when I saw that part of it -- the reality for a Black man in this country is it doesn't matter where you are class-wise. None of that matters. George Floyd could easily have been me, very easily, you know? And I don't know a Black person in this country who has not had a bad experience with law enforcement. I've had my share of them and most people who know me know my character and who I am and they would be surprised of how I personally have been treated by -- some of my experiences with the police. George Floyd is executed. We see it. We see the nonchalance of those who were involved in it, that this guy is just another number, is just, is -- this is -- you could see in that, this is something y'all do on a regular basis, isn't it? This is the way you treat people on a regular basis. And I think part of the reality that we're facing right now is that the reaction to the execution of George Floyd is not simply about George Floyd. This is not about one man. He just happens to be the light for the gasoline, a light that we've lit a few times before. But we -- let me be right back, because my computer's getting ready to die. I'm at four percent, so -- and I want to finish this thought. Give me one second. (laughs) LB: Okay. (pause) BJ: Okay, there we go. Oh. (laughs) So, what we're seeing right now is all of it. I mean, what you're seeing right now -- I've been Black all my life (laughs) and I have seen the Black community respond before. I've never seen anything like this. I've asked my grandmother, you know, "Has it been worse?" She's, "Yeah, it's been a lot worse." But she's never seen the Black community respond like this. And, you know, she lived through civil rights and Jim Crow and all that different kind of stuff. So, she's, like, "I've never seen the response on a community level." And I think part of it is COVID. LB: Yeah. BJ: Because we're all at home. LB: Right. BJ: So, we all have so much -- we have time to sit with this stuff and decide whether we're going to sit with it. LB: Right. BJ: And, you know, I think we are in a -- I think we have reached a turning point. And I do firmly believe that this system, this government, this way of living for the last 400 years of oppression and -- under oppression under white supremacy that very much still exists. I mean, very -- I mean, you can drive down Eighth Street in Allentown right now on the south side and there's a house over there that has a flag hanging out of it with swastikas on it. You can -- right now, you can drive over there and see that. This is a reality. But I think the reckoning has arrived. I don't think there's a way around this. If you don't do it now, it's going to be a bigger problem. If we don't fix this now, it will get fixed one way or the other. And, you know, I have never seen my community respond like this. I've never seen parts of the white community respond like this, all over the place, you know? Everybody knows that this is a real thing. LB: Right. BJ: Even those who pretend like it's not. LB: Yep. BJ: You ask them, okay, so, you talk about pulling yourselves up by your bootstraps and just getting over some things and -- because you did it. You were able to pull yourself up by your bootstraps in your life and do -- let me ask you this question. Would you want to still do everything you did through your life but be Black while doing it, knowing the reality of this country? LB: Yeah. BJ: And I don't think those folks would answer in the affirmative, "Yeah, I'd happily be Black and still try to do what I did." So, I think there is a reckoning coming, you know? I was talking to a friend of mine here at the church who is a woman of color. She's Asian, woman of color. And , you know, she said, "We all deal with discrimination. We all deal with the oppression of living in a country that's modeled off of white supremacy. We all deal with it." LB: Yeah. BJ: But she said, "You know, the one thing that all of us other minorities know" and that they have conversations about is at least they're not Black. (laughter) Because they know full well that it would be a heck of a lot harder (laughs) if they were Black. LB: Yeah. BJ: You know? And they deal with their own stuff. But I think there's a change coming. I am heartened by the response of people. I'm not surprised by the outrage of others. It's going to be what it's going to be but I firmly believe that if we don't deal with this now, if we just don't deal with the ugliness of who we actually are as a country now, it's going to get a heck of a lot worse. LB: Right, right, right. BJ: So, yeah, it's been rough. It's been -- you know, I had to take a week off shortly after the George Floyd incident happened because I hadn't -- you know, talking about being angry? LB: Yeah. BJ: I had not been that angry before. Like, I remember saying to Goudy that -- Goudy is the pastor at MCC Lehigh Valley. And I remember saying to them, "I can't do this right now. I can't be here right now because I'm about to pop." (laughs) LB: Yeah. BJ: And nobody here has ever seen me pop. So, like, I -- and the reality for -- I am -- here is the line that I walk. I am an openly Black -- well, openly Black, yeah. I'm openly Black. (laughs) I'm an openly gay Black man in the Lehigh Valley. LB: Right. BJ: The Lehigh Valley, it's a really good experiment of what supremacy looks like, (laughs) in real time action, you know? There is no Black community here. There are Black people. There's no Black community. And that's not by accident. You don't -- I still always wonder how we are 45 miles from Philadelphia, one of the densest populated cities in the country in relation to Black folk with a huge Black populations and how there are very few Black folks, respectively, in the Lehigh Valley. LB: Yeah. BJ: You know? Those lines of delineation are really, really strong in the Lehigh Valley, you know, where urban life ends and rural life begins, it is clear as day. It's, you know, and there's no passing through it. So, my experience is that I'm an openly gay Black man who works in a religious institution that is a predominantly white religious institution of people who belong to a minority group but also belong to the majority group who don't always understand how they benefit from their privilege simply because they belong to a minority group. LB: Right. BJ: But the difference is you can walk out of this place and be a white person and not be an LGBT person, you know what I'm saying? You can take those clothes off if you want to. LB: Yeah. BJ: I could walk through west end Allentown in a rainbow thong and streamers out of my hair and sparklers going off and just Pride-d out. And when they make the phone call, the phone call is going to be, "There's a Black guy walking down the street, causing a ruckus." LB: Right. BJ: I doesn't mat-- I could be as -- as I want to be. And that's the reality. That's the reality for so many people in this area. And it's a rough one to be in. So, I had to walk away from the church for a week or so, you know, trying to manage my own stuff. Also, this is going to be a little weird, but trying to manage my own stuff but also trying to -- how do I say this? The people that have been the hardest to deal with through this are not the -- your conservative -- LB: Right. BJ: I know where they're at. LB: Yeah. BJ: For me, it has been the white liberal progressives who have been the hardest to deal with with this because they don't understand you may be white, liberal progressive but you're still white and you still benefit -- LB: It's still racist. BJ: -- from the privilege, yeah. You still have all of that -- there's no way you don't. LB: It's racism. BJ: Yeah. LB: It's impossible not to be a -- BJ: Impossible. LB: -- racist in this country. BJ: It's impossible and -- LB: It's impossible for anybody to not be a racist, no matter -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- what their race is because we're -- BJ: It's hard. LB: -- constant-- there's so much societal racism. BJ: And it's systemic. LB: (inaudible) BJ: It's been written into our -- the core of who we are as a society to not trust each other and to not -- you know, in the back of our heads, it's always there. It's always there. You know, my biggest frustration, I think that first couple weeks after all of this happened was the number of people, the number of white folk who I had not talked to in maybe years who either texted me or called me to ask me if I'm okay and ask me what they can do -- and I'm, like, I know you mean well. LB: Yes. BJ: I know you mean well. But I'm not your personal Black man. Like, it's I'm not the guardian of the gates. If you really want to help, there are plenty of places where you -- don't reach out to me for me to tell -- to do the work to tell you how to do the work. LB: Right. BJ: Figure it out. (laughs) So, that was, like, my -- I said to a couple friends, said to my friend, [Cirie?], who is [Ciriya?] Lang, who is a professor over at Lehigh, "If one more person texts me, I'm going to lose my shit. I'm going to lose it." (laughs) They mean well but good Lord. (laughs) LB: Yeah. BJ: Oh! LB: Yeah. (laughs) And unfortunately, in real life, it's harder to unfriend people. BJ: Yeah. (laughs) LB: I just want to -- BJ: (laughs) You know, I do think -- I hate social media. I despise it. You know, I say all the time it's where the devil goes to cry. But the thing I do appreciate about it is that so many people have no filter when it comes to social media and they don't think that there are consequences to the things that they say or post or do. I am grateful for the number of people who have shown me who they are, you know? It's the same people who I can see on a -- or see in person who will smile in my face and tell me that they care or love me or whatever. And I gotcha. Okay. (laughs) Okay. You know, I'm grateful for that. (laughs) LB: Yeah. (laughs) But we're back to reality and -- BJ: Yeah. (laughs) LB: Yeah. Now what are you going to do? Yeah. BJ: Yeah, yeah. LB: I appreciate that. So, I guess that we're at the end here and, you know, if you want to go on, that's -- or I'll give you some more time to say whatever you want to say. But I did want to ask you, you know, sort of in the end thing: what's the thing, you know, what's giving you hope, what kind of hope and strength are you getting from anything now that we just talked about all the annoying people that -- (laughter) [calling you?] up with their they're desperately hav-- I have to feel good because -- so, I'm going to talk to Brian, so -- (laughter) BJ: I think that what I -- I said it earlier. I have seen the best of people throughout this, too. Seen the worst but I've seen the best come out of people. I've seen a generation of younger kids who I am excited about, you know, this -- eighteen, nineteen-year-olds, twenty-year-olds, twenty-one-year-olds, these kids are, like -- LB: Yeah. BJ: -- they've got their stuff together. And they have talked out a bunch of stuff with one another that my generation has not, your generation has not, and they've been frank with each other. And they have the ability to not be -- they have the ability to see that the king has no clothes on, you know what I'm saying? They have this -- they know that the stuff that they've been taught, that they -- in school is crap. LB: Yeah. BJ: They know this. They do a bunch of their own work. So, that in and of itself has given me some hope. LB: Yeah. BJ: And, you know, I'm only in my late thirties at this point and I'm -- I think these kids could take over. (laughter) LB: Yeah. BJ: Yeah, I'm happy to just go, "Hey, you can -- go ahead. You guys do what you want to do." LB: Yes. BJ: So, that has given me hope. That's absolutely given me hope. LB: Yeah, yeah. BJ: The closeness of my spouse has given me hope, as well. We've always been very close and always depended on each other and always supported each other throughout all different kind of stuff but I'm very lucky. I'm a very lucky man to have met the man that I can fully confide and leave stuff with, you know? And the line of work that we do, it's nice to have somebody in your corner who gets it, you know? Who gets it and who you can put stuff down with because people don't really comprehend how much we got to carry. And being able to have somebody who you can trust with you is nice. So, that gives me hope that I will actually be able to survive this (laughs) with some sense of completion, like I'm still put together. So, yeah. LB: Yeah. BJ: So, those two things, I don't know about -- I'm really excited about this new crop of kids. Really excited about it. LB: Right. Pretty great. It's a whole new world -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- and it's all through different -- in terms of how they deal with sexual orientation, gender identity, how they talk about things, how they understand things, how they write about things, how they talk about race and ethnic background and how they talk about everything, it's really very positive. BJ: How they reason with each other. LB: Yeah, it's very -- BJ: Like, it's not just, you know, it's not just "I'm right, you're wrong." But they take time and invest in conversation with one another, with people who they have very differing views on -- you know, unlike us, who sit on Facebook and, "Here's this article that I did not read and I think it" -- you know, (inaudible), you know? They're not like that. In fact, that's enough hope for me right there. (laughs) LB: That's great. Well, I, you know, I think of you as a very young person because I knew you when you were so young. (laughter) And did you go to Allen High School? You went to Allen High School. BJ: I did, I did. LB: Yeah. BJ: I went to Allen. LB: So, I'm remembering, and maybe I'm wrong about this, but you -- in the 2000 Pride festival, do you remember that? It was raining horrendously. BJ: Oh, that -- oh, my God, I remember that, yeah. (laughs) LB: You had that -- and you had a booth there because you -- BJ: I -- LB: -- talking about starting about starting a Gay-Straight Alliance, weren't you? At Allen High School? BJ: Yes! LB: Yeah. BJ: I -- LB: because I -- for the booth -- BJ: -- yeah, I wanted to start a Gay-Straight Alliance at Allen. This was before -- LB: Rachel -- BJ: -- Rachel -- LB: -- Zane. BJ: -- yeah, Rachel Zane. Rachel was there but Rachel was working at the school at that time. LB: Yeah, yeah. BJ: But I didn't know Rachel and -- because I literally just had this conversation with Rachel, like, a year ago when Goudy and I went to the Gay-Straight Alliance to do a presentation. And, you know, I said, "I tried to start a Gay-Straight Alliance back in, like, 2000, 2001." LB: It was 2000 -- BJ: Yeah, some -- LB: -- 2000. BJ: -- somewhere -- yeah, and got a bunch of pushback, so -- LB: Yeah, remember that. BJ: So, I had the booth, I had all different kind of stuff going on, and -- LB: It was the hurricane. It was -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- during a hurricane. BJ: Yeah, it was -- LB: And it rained horrendously, to the point where you didn't have a tent, so you're standing out there with a card table, which was mine, by the way, and I still have it. (laughter) And then, you ended up standing in our -- and I said we have to get this kid back over here, because you were in high school then. (laughter) And we come back over and we're just standing in the tent. It's just torrentially raining and people are just -- you know, and Governor Rendell, he was running for office and he was on the stage. There were still 800 people there. BJ: Yeah, while -- LB: But -- BJ: -- all the mud is getting deeper -- LB: -- right, the mud is -- like, sinking in the mud. BJ: (inaudible) LB: Crocs are just stuck in the mud in the middle of the field and -- BJ: That was back when we -- when Pride was in that -- LB: Yeah. BJ: -- baller area on the other side of -- LB: We were in the other side. BJ: -- [near Beech?], right? LB: Yeah. BJ: Yeah. LB: That was the last time I think we had it there and -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- Allison [Homm?] was the chair of Pride and she was trying to fix stuff. It might have been 2001. But we were -- she was, like, ordering people to bring hay in so that they could put it on the mud -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- because we couldn't get our cars out. BJ: Yeah. LB: And it was, yeah, so I -- BJ: It was (inaudible) LB: -- always -- and I said -- you know, people say, well, so-and-so started the first Gay-Straight Alliance. I said, "I thought Brian Jones did." But I do remember there was a lot of pushback. There was a lot of pushback -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- for the principal. We couldn't even -- BJ: I remember I -- so, this was back in 2000. Remember Borders books? And -- LB: Yeah, yeah. BJ: -- Borders bookstore? Well, they have a LGBT section in Borders books and I'm -- my little gay self, I went into Borders books, went to the gay section and found a guide to being a LGBT person. (laughter) And I start all this different kind of stuff. And I pulled out this guide and I opened it up and looked at, you know, there was a section in there that said, "How to start a Gay-Straight Alliance." LB: Yeah. BJ: I went, okay, I can find that. I can find an advisor ; I can find a room. I've always been a person who can galvanize people and get -- you know, it's what I've always done. So, I got a teacher who was able to give me a room. I got -- and all the bylaws for the school said to start a group -- was that you needed an advisor, you needed a room, and the group had to be open to anybody. LB: Right. BJ: It couldn't be exclusive. So, I went to start it and next thing I know, I'm talking to a school counselor. Then the school counselor wants me to talk to the vice principal and then the vice principal wants me to talk to the principal. And the principal wants me to talk to the superintendent. And this went on for months. For months. And I remember calling you -- LB: Yeah. BJ: -- and contact with you and -- LB: Mr. Ziminsky was the guy who told me to talk to you. BJ: Yeah. Steve Ziminsky or Steve Libby? LB: Yeah, Steve Ziminsky. BJ: Okay -- LB: Because he (inaudible) BJ: -- that makes sense. LB: -- [was?] the music teacher. BJ: Yeah. LB: Now, there's this guy, he's a great musician and he's a kid and he's doing this great job and you need to work with him. And so, "We'll do that. [Call us?]." BJ: And we tried. LB: Yeah. BJ: I mean, that went on for almost -- I want to say almost six months of getting the runaround. And then, by that time, I was -- so, by the time 2001 came around, I was becoming a senior in high school, getting ready for going to school, trying to finish my senior year, and I'm, like, ah! I, you know, (laughs) so I kind of just let it go. LB: And I'm actually going to be interviewing Ian Wagner, and he was the one, with Rachel Zane, who actually made it go. But even after they finally got that to go, I remember this so clear because they called us in for this. They would have the announcement that the Gay-Straight Alliance was going to meet. And the person who was reading the morning announcements would say the GSA. BJ: Yeah. LB: They wouldn't say gay. They wouldn't say the word. And so, everybody thought it was the Girls Scouts of America. (laughter) They just kept saying -- like, they have a Girl Scouts thing here? What the fuck is that, you know? BJ: Like, the -- Ian was able -- I don't -- I think I know Ian -- LB: Yeah, he's on (inaudible) BJ: I think we've met each other. I think I know him. But he -- they were able to get that started -- I think it was, like, the year after I left. LB: I think it was the year after. But the thing about it was that Rachel was committed to starting it. BJ: Yeah. LB: So, if you can have a teacher who is -- in effect, it's the teacher that's doing it and the -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- kids are doing it. And I know that's so because I was a college teacher and, you know, you can have a kid who -- like, we had a lot of different situations where kids would come to us and they'd say, "Well, I'm trying to get this thing to happen and I have this petition," something like that. And I would say to them, this happened at Liberty High School, and I said, "Let me talk to them. Let me just talk to the principal first." So, then I would threaten the principal (laughter) like, "You can't say no to this kid." BJ: Yeah. LB: "It's the law!" I did that to [Muller?], I did that to Moravian, too. BJ: Yeah. LB: And I screamed at the person who was the dean of students because they said that they had brought kids in telling them they had a Gay-Straight Alliance at Moravian and they didn't. BJ: And they didn't. LB: And then, the person says to me, "Well, he can start one." I said, "So, you're telling me that you want a freshman kid who is being harassed" -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- "publicly by their RA to start their own group after you told him, 'You should come here because there's a group'?" BJ: Yeah. LB: I mean, come on! BJ: Oh! LB: That's not okay! And every time they say, you know, "Well, it's up to the kids to do it" -- it is very hard for the kids to do it. BJ: Really hard! LB: You have to have -- BJ: It's fucking -- LB: -- yeah. BJ: I remember being -- LB: And you were so tenacious about it. I remember that so well. BJ: I was on -- I was one of the few out gay kids in that -- I mean, and Allen is a school, even then, of three thousand, four thousand -- LB: Yes, [in the thousands?]. BJ: -- kids. LB: Yeah. BJ: And I was one of maybe five or six kids in the whole school who were out. LB: Yeah. BJ: You know? And I felt like, I always have felt like, okay, this is a part of my responsibility -- LB: Exactly, yeah. BJ: -- as a, as who I, you know, who I am. So, I took on the responsibility. LB: Yeah, that's right. BJ: And the thing that they never said: they never said no. LB: Right, they just -- BJ: They never said no. LB: -- passed you on forever. BJ: Yeah. LB: "Well, we have to talk to the school board. We have to talk to the superintendent. Well, next month, we'll talk to the superintendent." BJ: Yeah. LB: "Next week, we'll have this. Let's, well" -- and then, all of a sudden, the facilitator doesn't want to do it anymore because -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- they've been threatened. BJ: Yeah. LB: And that happened at Pen Argyl High School, [Adrian?] -- and that was a lot later but Pen Argyl High School, they ended up -- ultimately, the superintendent made -- and the school, the counselor -- we actually talked directly to the legal counsel for the whole school district, who told them they have to let it go because it's against the law to say no. And the superintendent came to the kids, this is so fascinating. The superintendent comes to the kids, this is at Pen Argyl, and says to them, "You really, you're doing a great job. I support this one hundredpercent. And by the way, I'm a lesbian." Superintendent says that. And then she gets fired. BJ: Oh! LB: She gets -- so, what does that say to the kids? BJ: Oh! LB: I mean, here's this person who is that level and they come out in a perfectly normal thing, like, "I want you to know that it gets better, I'm a lesbian, I have a great relationship, don't worry about it, every -- you know, I support you." And then she gets fired. The superintendent gets fired. BJ: Well -- LB: And then the teachers see that and they think holy crap, I'm not going to be the advisor for this group. They're going to fire me if I do this. BJ: Well -- LB: It's -- that's how you keep people down, by doing that. BJ: -- but you also keep people up by being visible -- LB: Yeah, you do. BJ: -- and open. You take the lumps that you're going to get and you just keep on moving. I mean, it's -- and I would ask you a question. Do you know, do you and Trish understand -- I know you do ; it's just philosophical -- but I really think that what y'all do, what we do, what people like Steve Libby do, you know, what we do is life and death. LB: Yeah. BJ: Literal life and death. LB: I do know that's true. BJ: And, you know, we would not be having this conversation right now if -- and you don't know this, but if I had -- if people like you and Steve and Goudy hadn't walked into my life, I would be gone. LB: Yeah. Well, I mean -- and that goes for the people that helped me and everything like that, too, and that we've got this whole relationship. And it's what you're talking about, that family of LGBT people that -- and frankly, with regard to LGBT people, which is different than racial minorities -- racial minorities cannot hide their racial minority. But there's also the fact that most LGBT people don't have parents that are LGBT, so they don't really know -- and the one other group that's similar to that that I found when I do trainings and stuff is young people who have disabilities. And their parents don't always -- don't understand them because they don't have those disabilities. And the relationship -- I actually did a training one time. It was a whole bunch of kids that happened to show up to it that all had mental and physical disabilities. Mostly mental disabilities. And when I was talking about that aspect -- because, you know, you never had to go home and say to your parents, "Mom, Dad, I've got something to tell you. I'm Black." They probably knew. BJ: Yeah, they figured that out. (laughs) LB: But they probably figured it out. Now, it doesn't make it any easier because you're right -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- you're wearing a badge every minute that everybody can see and the ingrained racism of the United States is impossible to deny. But these kids, when I was saying it to these kids who had these disabilities, they were totally nodding their head. And I hadn't really thought about it and then I'm looking at them going, oh, yeah! They're in the same situation because Trish, who worked at a rehab hospital said, you know, "Kids who have -- they would get head injuries or something like that and it would change their demeanor or they'd be in a wheelchair, their families would just give them up." And that's what happens to us, that's -- you know, to LGBT kids. And so, it's our responsibility, as part of the LGBT community, the [adult?] community, to take care of the younger generation. It's our responsibility. If we're not going to do it, we can't count on their own parents to do it. BJ: Yeah, and -- LB: And in general, I think that's true for all kids. Kids can't always count on their parents to take care of them. Other people have to help them. BJ: Yeah. LB: It's a part of the deal. And so -- BJ: And that need for, that wagon circling thing, that need for -- that familial thing that we have all -- that so many of us have lost, places like your organization have been that. We've tried our best to do that. And -- LB: Oh, you've done a great job at MCC. You know, I'm still recommending people to go to MCC. People will call me up and they'll say -- and they've done this for years, because I've been answering the info line for twenty-two years. People call up and they'll say, "I want to meet more people in the community." Or, "I want a support group." Now, we have support groups sort of now but not for just -- and I say, "You really need a support group or you just need to meet more queer people? (laughter) [Like?], meet other lesbians, for example." And I'll say, "You know, how do you feel about church?" "Yeah, I don't have any problem with that." "Okay, well, why don't you go to MCC?" "Because they have to be nice to you there. It's [work?]. (laughter) And they'll shake your hand and then you can sit in the back." And also, it's every week. So, it's not like, well, if I don't have the nerve to do it this week -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- I can always think -- I can go -- BJ: There's going to be another one next week. LB: -- I can do another one next -- not like monthly or we're having a dance and then we're not -- BJ: Yeah, yeah. LB: -- having another one till next year. Or the Pride festivals: one gig and then there's not another one until next year. And I said, "MCC." And I remember one time, somebody -- I won't tell you who it is but it's somebody you know in the church who said -- I was doing something at MCC when we were -- when you were at the soap -- or whatever that factory place was on Fourth Street, when you're on Sixth Street. And we were working on a project and something and (inaudible) and she was a board member. And she said, "Do you realize that you said that to me? (laughter) I called you for that reason? Like, I don't know anybody. Said, 'Why don't you go over to MCC?'" And she, like, you know, ended up with a whole career thing there. (laughter) And now she has a partner who she's married to and that was a long time ago. And I said, "I say that to a lot of people." (laughter) And I do because that -- and also, that people have, you know, spiritual violence to them all the time. BJ: Yeah. LB: And people who get a life from church can often have their church treat them like crap and that they need a church that really is going to support them. And I think that MCC -- I just referenced somebody. Somebody just called me. It was a therapist and the therapist said that the kid was very, very religious, from a very religious family, and they needed a religious community to support them. And I said, "Call Metropolitan." And she said, "I called this church. It was a United Church of Christ." Not yours but -- not the one there but in another part -- and the pastor who answered the phone said, "Yeah, the pastor that you really should talk to is the other guy and he's on vacation. I'm not the one." In other words, "I hate gay people." BJ: Yeah, yeah. LB: You know, the other guy is tolerant of them, so -- and I said, "You don't need to call a church that is willing to allow queer people to be in the church. You need to call a church who's going to understand exactly what this kid is talking about." BJ: Yeah, and that is a big part of that -- see, it's an important context to have because there are a lot of churches in the area who are open and affirming, who are reconciling, who are -- and a lot of them get that as a badge of honor. LB: Yeah. BJ: That doesn't mean diddly-squat, you know? It doesn't mean -- LB: Oh, doesn't, no. BJ: -- doesn't mean a thing. There are those -- I got to give -- there are those who -- where that means something -- LB: Yeah. BJ: -- but they're fewer than, yeah, and fewer than you would think. LB: Yeah. BJ: And, you know, so many people in our community who have been raised in a faith tradition, who have been raised in a Christian tradition, who have never been told that they're loved by their Creator as they are. LB: Yeah! BJ: Is amazing to me and we see it -- I mean, you can see the visceral reaction of people when they hear that for the first time. LB: Right. BJ: And it changes their lives. And a lot of times -- we have this conversation often because a lot of times, we get people who come to the door who might come to the door one time. They might come to the door one time and they'll sit in the sanctuary and they will just cry through the whole thing. LB: Right. BJ: And we won't see them again. And what we had to come to terms with was all this person needed in their life was to be told that what they believe, how they believe they were created, is affirmed by the divine. (laughs) That's all they needed. And be okay with that. LB: And they're not the only one that thinks so. There's this whole church of people that -- BJ: Whole community. LB: Yeah. BJ: Whole community. LB: This church community looks just like my church community, so -- BJ: Yeah. And can I ask you a question? LB: Sure. BJ: I would love to get your perspective on this. Even before COVID, had you been getting a sense that the LGBT community had -- I've kind of been getting the sense that the LGBT community had been coming -- disjointed. Not disjointed but -- that's not the word I want to use. Disconnected. So, long-time institutions within our area closed over the last couple years. So, in cases like Diamonz and, like, 12th Street, what was it called? The bar on Twelfth Street. LB: Candida's. BJ: Candida's. LB: Candida's. Yeah, except I know why both of those places changed. They closed and it wasn't because they didn't have business or anything like that. It was -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- Candida was, you know, in her late 70s and she wanted to retire. And, quite frankly, the person who ran Diamonz had some issues that got -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- didn't have anything to do with -- well, I think, for me, I'm not seeing that because we just -- BJ: No? LB: -- got this -- I'm not seeing that because we had just started this community center and it's -- we've got 14 employees now. And, you know, when we started out, it was, like, me and Adrian and Trish and Adrienne saying, "Let's try to do this." And before that, we ran it out of our house for years and years and years. BJ: Yeah. LB: And so, actually, I'm seeing this enormous amount of work we're doing. So, I guess I see what you mean. I think that there is -- and it's interesting that I'm doing a lot of historical stuff because I just interviewed all of these guys about HIV/AIDS and a couple of women and -- in the eighties. And there was an LGBT community center on Hamilton Street in the eighties -- BJ: Wow. LB: -- that was called the Lambda Center. And then, because of AIDS, it became the AIDS Services Center -- BJ: Okay. LB: -- which was in Bethlehem. And that ran for a long time, into the nineties until -- and then, it was absorbed by St. Luke's. But what happened was that things with regard to AIDS changed because of actual ways to save people's lives and stuff like that. So, I've actually been looking at this, because I came to the Lehigh Valley in 1987, I've been looking at this continuum. And somebody in the community named Dixie White, I don't know if you know her, but she was a -- Dixie died a couple of -- BJ: Weeks ago. LB: -- weeks ago, a few weeks ago, and she was a major activist in the seventies and I knew her quite well. And she gave me a lot of her papers and stuff about stuff that she did in the '70s and what they tried to do in the seventies. And so, I mean, that's really -- we're really talking about, you know, more than forty years ago and this continuum. And those things wax and wane. BJ: Yeah. LB: And a lot of it has to do with people who age out, you know? They get to a certain point where they're saying, okay, [I can't -- this?] -- I have to say that for me and Trish, the fact that Adrian came along and said that he would run the Pride festival, and here's this guy in his thirties -- I mean, he wasn't even in his thirties. He was late twenty-something. I'm thinking thank God he's doing this because who else would do this the way that we're doing it? We're not getting paid, we're putting a huge amount of our own money into it for the most part, we're doing all of this work. It's constant work and we can't do this forever. BJ: Yeah. LB: And then, somebody comes along and says, "I'll do it." So, I think it's not unlike that circumstance that happens in schools frequently where there can be an enormously successful Gay-Straight Alliance because there's, like, two really active students and a facilitator that are so into it. When Adrian was at Muhlenberg College, the Gay-Straight Alliance had seven hundred members. BJ: Wow. LB: And when he left, there were forty-five members. And forty-five isn't anything to shake -- I mean, that's plenty. BJ: Yeah, yeah. LB: So, when -- but, you know, you have somebody who's really dynamic and they figure out ways to do it. And it waxes and wanes and I think that that happens. I think that there is a feeling or there has been a feeling since the last presidential election of fear and despair, which is changing now. I think that people are saying we have to come together, we have to fight -- that sometimes people feel complacent after the continuation of marriage or, you know, after the legality of marriage equality and people are sort of thinking, okay, we've got this now. BJ: Yeah. LB: And then, you know, then all these other things happen. And so, we have to recognize that that -- and that happens, you know, that happened with -- in the civil rights movement where desegregation happens and the end of, for the most part, the end of Jim Crow laws and you have the really significant civil rights movement with Martin Luther King and all of those thing happen and then the signing of the Civil Rights Act in 1965. And then, white people starting to think, oh, well, that -- Black people aren't discriminated against anymore. One of the things that -- what I was thinking about when you were talking about people being so aware of the Black Lives Matter movement and the terrible things, the George Floyd stuff, the Breonna Taylor, all of those different things is -- one of the things that's great about it is social media because people can whip out their phone and take a picture of it -- BJ: Yeah. LB: -- so that somebody can say, "Well, oh, that doesn't really happen." But, like, yes it does! Here it's happening and six people took a picture, watched this happening, and had a picture of, you know, peaceful Black Lives Matters protesters being beaten up by police in riot gear for no reason at all. BJ: Yeah. LB: And you can't look at that and go, well, that wasn't really happening. And that actually happened during the civil rights movement, too, where people were seeing on television, you know, peaceful people marching and then, you know, guys with dogs and, you know, police with dogs and with fire hoses really harming those people and saying, well, how can you justify that? This is real discrimination. And so, one of the good things now, I think, and it can be dangerous, but one of the good things now is that, I mean, we had a Supreme Court decision that was pretty significant. I was able to -- Trish is famous for watching the SCOTUS blog. She watches that blog and the minute the stuff comes off -- this happened with the American -- Care Act. The real information, I put it on the internet as fast as possible (laughter) because I want to break the news before anybody else. So, we have the opportunity to do that kind of information when before we had to rely solely on the news and they often get it wrong or they got it -- it was tainted or -- we know that news isn't always honest now. And there's -- you know, Fox News has been around with their fake news for years and years. But so was the Hearst company in the 1930s. BJ: Yeah, yeah. LB: So, I mean, that's nothing new. But now we have an opportunity to share information. Some of it's wrong. Some of it's tainted. But we also have a way to share information with each other in terms of saying, okay, you cannot argue that this thing that happened to George Floyd is wrong. BJ: Yeah. LB: I mean, this happened. It was wrong. There is no justification for it. And you can turn back and say if you're trying to justify this, you are being -- or if you're trying to justify that transgender people shouldn't have healthcare, I don't want to be your friend anymore. You can't say you love me and then do this thing. BJ: Yeah. LB: And it is kind of -- it can be divisive and it can draw a line in the sand. But it also can make people aware that we can't just agree to disagree when it comes to inequality and racism and homophobia and transphobia. We can't just agree to disagree. That's not a legitimate thing to say. Only people of privilege will ever say that. BJ: Yeah, yeah. LB: And so, I think that, you know, I've been doing this gig a long time. A really long time. I was running the Gay-Straight Alliance when I was in college and that was, oh, in the seventies. So, I see this. It's a roller coaster. And I think that people can be -- one's experience can be, oh, God, I can't get anybody to do anything and why is this happening? I have seen that happen, go, you know, like a roller coaster for so many years that I expect it to be a roller coaster. So, I think, you know, it's unrealistic, and I know you know this, it's unrealistic to think it's always going to just get better and better and better and better. BJ: Oh, yeah. LB: It never happens. BJ: Never works that way. Never works that way. LB: And, you know, look at the history of MCC. It's been around for thirty years, more than thirty years. BJ: Almost forty at this point. (laughs) LB: Forty? Yeah. BJ: Almost forty. LB: And the, right, and all the incredible things that have happened and the successes that's happened. And then, you know, parts that were hard and parts there's disagreement, it's the way human beings are. I mean, that's, it's, yeah, but look at how MCC has continued after all of this time, I think, and how many people have been positively supported and helped by MCC. It's extraordinary -- BJ: Yeah, it's -- LB: -- something to be really proud of. BJ: -- it's, you know, I -- that need for that community thing, that need for the ability to do this, right? (laughs) To do -- LB: Sure. BJ: -- you know, and I wonder, in the future, how much of this kind of stuff is going to be important, even more so in building local community and keeping the stories together, keeping the history together, and being able to have conversations with each other that other people can see and be a part of. LB: Right. BJ: You know? It's going to be very important. Very, very important. People are going to need to see folks who are in either a leadership position or just a part of the community engaging with each other and, you know, this is -- I think you're onto something here. (laughs) LB: Oh, definitely, and this was a grant that we got and it was some -- Adrian and some of the people from the archives wrote this grant and then they said, "Now you have to do it." (laughter) And I said to these guys -- and I have to tell you, Brian, that we've been working on these archived interviews for a while and Lehigh is doing some from some of the older people who are the LGBT people in the community. And it took them about a year and a half to do 10 interviews. Then Adrian came to me -- and they have a team, too -- and then he comes to me and he goes, "Well, here's the grant," and something and I said, "This is 30 interviews, (laughter) two months." BJ: Oh, my gosh! LB: I haven't even -- and I said, "And I don't even know how to use the Zoom yet!" (laughter) So, I said to him -- he said, "Can you get it done?" because it's parameters in the grant and I said, "Yeah, I can get it done." But for every -- but nobody else could do this because you got to know people to be able to do this and -- BJ: Yeah, yeah. LB: -- so, anyway, it was -- been funny. But I did point out and I said there's a lot of paperwork with these things, too. We have to fill out forms and they have to be uploaded and stuff like that and it goes to the archives. So, I have to fill out forms to be sure that it's uploaded the right way. So, anyway, we've gone over the time but I loved talking to you! (laughter) And I'm so grateful that you've done this and it's been wonderful to walk down memory lane, back to twenty years ago when we were -- BJ: Twenty years ago! LB: -- getting really wet and -- (laughter) that was a classic -- I think that was a really classic -- BJ: That was, I -- that was horrible. (laughs) LB: It was horrible! BJ: That was still -- it was memorable, though. People still showed up. They still came out. LB: And the hilarious thing about it is I remember Steve Black saying this from the stage, he said, "We're so -- we're in this terrible situation where we're" -- the name of the hurricane was Alison, was Hurricane Alison. BJ: Yeah, yeah. LB: And we said, you know, the head of our -- the Pride festival was Alison. (laughter) She's our own hurricane. She's still around doing stuff, too. BJ: Yeah, yeah! LB: So, you know, I mean, I see posts from her every day and they're very, very progressive and interesting. BJ: Yeah. LB: So, anyway, it's been wonderful to talk to you. Thank you so much. They will send you this and I'm going to turn this off now, so -- BJ: Okay. LB: -- there -- END OF VIDEO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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01:48:57
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Title
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Brian Jones, July 9, 2020
Description
An account of the resource
Brian Jones talks about the current COVID19 is affecting him and his family, his work at Metropolitan Community Church of the Lehigh Valley, how it is affecting LGBTQ people, Black Lives Matter issues, and what gives him hope
Identifier
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PH40_09
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-;COVID-19 (Disease)
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2020-07-09
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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https://lgbt.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/033e45532ba39ff17a548f651155d2d5.png
9e9dd8136998d8358647841d48a4350b
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Title
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
An account of the resource
In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Liz Bradbury
Interviewee
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Alanna Berger and Blaise Liffick
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_07.xml
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5.4 July 28, 2020 Alanna Berger and Blaise Liffick, July 28, 2020 (audio only) PH40_07 01:32:29 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Alanna Berger and Blaise Liffick Liz Bradbury audio/avi BergerAlanna_20200728_FullAudio-Video.avi 1.0:|2243(5) 0 https://youtu.be/ZlP_cAVyt9Y YouTube audio 0 Interview Introductions BLAISE LIFFICK: B-L-A-I-S-E L-I-F- “F,” as in “Frank,” I-C-K.
 ; LIZ BRADBURY: Alanna, could you say your name once again, because I forgot to turn on the other backup audio recording? So, say that again and do that, so it’s on there.
 ; ALANNA BERGER: All right. Alanna A-L-A-N-N-A Berger B-E-R-G-E-R.
 ; LB: Great, and can you please share your birth dates?
 ; AB: 7-20-54.
 ; BL: 3-30-53. 0 104 Connections to LGBTQ+ Community LB: Okay. And how do you identify within the greater LGBTA community?
 ; AB: Allies.
 ; BL: Definitely.
 ; LB: Okay. And so, you don’t identify as LGBT part of the community, other than allies, so that’s great. And I want to say, since we’re talking about this -- because I’ve had other people who are part of the extended family of our community. So, explain why you are part of this community and why I see you as part of this community and your support of the community that you’ve done? I can see you’re wearing your t-shirts, so go ahead and mention that. (laughter) 0 250 Background on Silent Witness / Peacekeeping in Harrisburg
 ; LB: Could you also just briefly explain what Silent Witness did? Because that was such an important part, and somebody will look at this and they may not know that stuff.
 ; AB: Right. With Silent Witness Peacekeepers, we had originally gotten involved with the Silent Witnesses from the MCC Church in Harrisburg. And Westboro Baptist Church was coming to town and they needed help and Blaise and I ended up getting involved. We went through their training and it was at the showing of “Jim in Bold” at Penn State -- or at William Penn Museum, in Harrisburg. And it was such an amazing experience to be involved in that. [...] 0 670 Current Lives
 ; LB: I really appreciate it. So, one of the things we usually start out with is -- let me find my startup questions. Uh-oh, one, two, three. Here it is. Okay. So, you just recently moved, didn’t you? To a new place?
 ; AB: Yes
 ; BL: Yes.
 ; LB: Are you hating that or loving it?
 ; AB: Well, we’re --
 ; LB: Or something in between?
 ; BL: Mostly loving.
 ; LB: Good, good.
 ; AB: Yeah, it’s a brand-new house and so, we’re working out some of the kinks, but it’s in between two of our kids. 0 801 Communication in the COVID Era
 ; LB: Okay. Well, dogs matter because the animals really matter. Certainly true and I’ve talked to -- this is my fifteenth COVID interview and I did ten HIV/AIDS interviews for people who lived through the AIDS epidemic too. This was all crammed into this short amount of time, but the people have been vastly different, in terms of the people I’ve been talking to and I’ve just been talking to somebody who’s really alone, who really doesn’t even have a dog. So, it’s an interesting thing to have some people who have large numbers of people in their house and other people -- how different that is for them. So, are you communicating with your grandkids and your family and stuff online? Are you doing Zoom stuff with them or -- 0 1035 Passing the Time LB: Yeah, good. So, let me see here. Yeah, some of this stuff is -- now, you’re probably too existential for this. You are really thinking about the questions instead of people going “ahhh”. So, like I just talked to somebody who was 22, they just graduated, and they were so cavalier about everything. And this is a trans kid who just graduated from Moravian and is going into graduate school at Lehigh and had to leave Moravian at the end and, you know, went -- but their parents don’t support them. So, they couldn’t go home. So, they had to go into -- this is the interesting story. They had to go with a friend to her house, with her parents, in Massachusetts and this young person has been there for five [00:18:00] months with these people. [...] 0 1159 Dr. Rachel Levine So, what do you think about Rachel Levine? We want to talk to everybody about that, because we love Rachel Levine. 
 ; BL: You know, we love Rachel. She’s just terrific. And we’ve known her for quite some time.
 ; AB: Yeah, we met her -- because I was going back in my mind when I saw the question. We met her at a GSA summit. Do you remember those? That Louie Marvin had started. 0 1465 Dr. Levine as a Role Model/Hero BL: Well, the other thing I’d like to say about Doctor Levine is what a great role model she’s been for our daughter, Ashley. 
 ; LB: Oh, great.
 ; BL: You know, Ashley went -- her story has evolved over the last decade or so and I know that she has viewed Doctor Levine as her role model. And a really good one. And I know Ashley has greatly benefited from that a lot. 0 1586 Biggest Concern about the COVID Pandemic LB: [...] Yeah, I take a lot of time trying to explain that to people when I’m training, that this is just one of the worst things you can do. And in fact, I’ve had young trans people say that their names are even more important than the pronouns, it’s really the name is what I’ve had several people say. So, what’s your biggest concern about the pandemic? 0 1995 Making Health & ; Safety Decisions / Keeping Busy LB: [...] So, you’re staying in or are you going to the grocery store or are you just ordering stuff or what’s the deal?
 ; AB: We started off just ordering stuff online and then, you know, we started going to the six a.m. senior hour.
 ; LB: I understand that, yes.
 ; AB: Around here, it’s been fairly good, in terms of the stores we go to, people are wearing masks, they have the plastic up in front of everybody. And so, that helps with the confidence level. 0 2416 Other Frustrations with the COVID Pandemic LB: [...] Okay. I just want to say that I say this is my -- I’ve interviewed twenty-four people and every single one has said that their biggest annoyance and biggest anger is that people aren’t wearing masks and they’re not taking this seriously. Everyone has said that. So, universally, among the progressive people of the world, we all are just pissed off. Like, we had to go to a doctor’s appointment and every person we passed on the street -- because we hardly ever go out, we’ve only been out a couple of times. I realized that person’s wearing a mask, that person’s not wearing one, that’s all she said about every single person. It’s our thing. But what other kinds of frustrations or [00:41:00] fears -- but frustrations I think would be what you would say. And there’s been some small frustrations, I think, too. 0 2892 Virtual Learning
 ; BL: I had to do the second half of the last semester online. And it was tricky. And I know the students found it difficult. You know, this was not a format that most of them wanted and many of them found challenging. And particularly students with any kind of issues in terms of how they learn, et cetera. It’s extremely challenging. And boy, I’m so glad I got to retire at the end of the semester, but I feel terrible for my colleagues who I know are so frustrated about, you know, what they are being forced to do. And, I know that [00:49:00] my colleagues in your field, for instance, how in the world do you teach woodworking if you can’t be in a woodworking lab? 
 ; LB: Yeah, it can’t be done. 0 3152 Knowing Individuals with COVID LB: [...] So, that’s a terrible story about Ashley and had you known other people that have had it or have been --
 ; AB: Friends. The daughter of one of our friends was in New York. She was a chaplain and she came down with COVID and she was really sick for about a month.
 ; BL: But recovered, she totally recovered. 0 3422 Re-evaluating Educational Choices for Children AB: You know, and if [00:57:00] somebody lives in Montana, one hundred miles away from the nearest case of COVID, have at it. Open your school and go for it. In an area where, you know, you haven’t flattened the curve yet or it’s still kind of -- you know, I think it’s a big risk. My daughter’s school district has decided to start with online, virtual classrooms. And then reevaluate it every month.
 ; LB: That’s wise. 0 3557 Thoughts on the Black Lives Matter Movement LB: Sure, yeah. It’s a Legionnaires’ kind of thing. It could be. So, do you want to say anything about Black Lives Matter? Because I’m asking everybody about that. You know, we can’t talk about COVID without talking about that and without talking about politics because it’s the deal. 
 ; BL: It is one of the frustrations that we can’t be out on the street with them.
 ; LB: No kidding, no kidding. 0 4040 Importance of Fighting for Intersectionalities AB: Well, the other thing too is the intellectual level. While everybody in the country is up in arms about Black Lives Matter, the whole idea of intersectionality comes into play. Because while everybody’s yelling about this, Trump is taking away healthcare for LGBT people. You know, here’s where the news is focused, so, let’s take away these rights from LGBT people and put more kids in cages. And so, that whole divide and conquer thing. 
 ; BL: And misdirection. He’s good at that. 0 4434 Motivations for Documenting Oral Histories / Remarks for Future Viewers LB: Yeah, all right. So, one more thing that I hope that -- this archive project is really fascinating and we’re having a wonderful time with Muhlenberg [01:14:00] and Lehigh University working on this too. So, they’ve done a bunch of older LGBT people talking about all this stuff that happened. I often thought that all the stuff we did to pass all our ordinances nobody would know about that. And I’ve been talking about that a lot. And they transcribe it and it’s really terrific and it’s all searchable and you can get it in all the papers that we say, like, “Why are you doing this stuff?” And now, it’s all in the archives and all digitalized and, you know, all the Valley Gay Presses that I made, one of the things that happened was, I was talking to Kristen Leipert, who I’m actually working with now on these things that I’m doing, like last year. 0 5101 Closing Remarks
 ; LB: Good for you. Well, that’s a terrific note to end on. Thank you so much for saying that. Thank you so much for talking to me. You’ve been very inspirational. 
 ; BL: Thanks for asking us in.
 ; AB: Yeah, it’s amazing.
 ; BL: We’re very honored.
 ; AB: Yes, very honored and it’s wonderful seeing you again.
 ; LB: It’s great to see you too. I will give Trish a hug. I’m going to turn off the recorder now. Oh, whoops. Wait, oh no. 0 Sound Blaise Liffick and Alanna Berger talk about how the current COVID19 pandemic is affecting them. They talk about their recent move to be nearer to their adult children, Blaise’s retirement from teaching college, and how the end of the semester was remote learning. They discussed their many years of commitment to civil rights and the support of the LGBT community through the Silent Witness programs. They talked about the LGBT people in their family and how COVID-19 has affected their work and health from having the virus. Alanna Berger 2020-07-28 BLAISE LIFFICK: B-L-A-I-S-E L-I-F "F," as in "Frank," I-C-K. LIZ BRADBURY: Alanna, could you say your name once again, because I forgot to turn on the other backup audio recording? So, say that again and do that, so it's on there. ALANNA BERGER: All right. Alanna A-L-A-N-N-A Berger B-E-R-G-E-R. LB: Great, and can you please share your birth dates? AB: 7-20-54. BL: 3-30-53. LB: Okay. And you're in what town? AB: We are in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania. LB: Okay. So, this is the consent portion. Do you consent to this interview today? AB: Absolutely. BL: Yes. LB: Okay. And do you consent to having this interview be transcribed, digitalized and made publicly available online, in searchable format? BL: Yes. AB: Yes. LB: Do you consent to the LGBT archive using your interview for educational purposes and other -- in other formats, including films, articles, websites, presentations and other formats we may not even know about yet? BL: Yes. AB: Yes. LB: Do you understand that you will have thirty days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview, identify any parts you would like to delete and or withdraw from your interview and withdraw your interview from the project? AB: Yes. BL: Yes. LB: Great, can you tell me what your ZIP Code is? AB: 17055. LB: Now, they also want to know, even though you've already given your date of birth, what your ages are. It says -- AB: I'm sixty-six. BL: I'm sixty-seven. LB: Okay. And how do you identify within the greater LGBTA community? AB: Allies. BL: Definitely. LB: Okay. And so, you don't identify as LGBT part of the community, other than allies, so that's great. And I want to say, since we're talking about this -- because I've had other people who are part of the extended family of our community. So, explain why you are part of this community and why I see you as part of this community and your support of the community that you've done? I can see you're wearing your t-shirts, so go ahead and mention that. (laughter) AB: Well, as I was growing up, I've always known gays and lesbians. My father had a gay cousin. When I went away to school at the university of Maryland, as part of the women's center, I think it was half straight women, half lesbians. We had gay friends on campus. So, I've always known people, but it wasn't until the -- we got involved in with the Silent Witness in Harrisburg, that we really became advocates. And at that point, we became part of the Silent Witness and we changed it to Silent Witness Peacekeepers Alliance. But we also got involved with Advocacy, which is where we met you. Especially in the Freedom to Marry movement. And so, we felt it was really important for straight people to stand up and deal with homophobia, just like it's important for white people to stand up and deal with racism. And so, that's been part of our journey. It became a spiritual path in some respects with Silent Witnesses. And over the course of time, you know, we used to say, "Oh, well, we're straight, our kids are straight." You know, and now we have a daughter who identifies as bisexual and a daughter who is transgender. And we also have a daughter whose gender expression is more male. So, we've learned so much about the community. I now have a nephew who came out a few months ago. So, you know, and Blaise has a niece who came out. I mean, so -- LB: Yeah, you're in the thick of it. AB: Now, yeah -- BL: We have a lot of connections. LB: Could you also just briefly explain what Silent Witness did? Because that was such an important part, and somebody will look at this and they may not know that stuff. AB: Right. With Silent Witness Peacekeepers, we had originally gotten involved with the Silent Witnesses from the MCC Church in Harrisburg. And Westboro Baptist Church was coming to town and they needed help and Blaise and I ended up getting involved. We went through their training and it was at the showing of "Jim in Bold" at Penn State -- or at William Penn Museum, in Harrisburg. And it was such an amazing experience to be involved in that. And they kept asking us to help until we ended up helping in 2005 with a Pride Festival in Harrisburg and it was one of the worst days of my life to see such a large group of forty -- fifty protestors. And it was so awful, I had nightmares. And we decided we wanted to do something more than just stand there with signs. And so, we kind of went back to the drawing board and worked with the original Silent Witnesses. We came up with the strategy of upholding the rainbow umbrellas. And, you know, Blaise had the -- BL: Safety vests. AB: -- safety vests. And we changed the strategy of the counter-protestors to actively escorting people past the protestors. And that strategy was so effective. Within a couple years, people would say, "I never saw the protestors. Where were they?" Even though, when you look at the pictures, you can see their great, big signs behind our umbrellas. You know, it was still, you know, something that really made people feel safe. Just a couple weeks ago, I was on a Zoom call and somebody said, "Oh, and you have to know Alanna Berger. She created this group that back at Lehigh Valley Pride, when the protestors walked into the festival, she was there. And I felt safe." You know, this is so many years later and we still hear that. BL: Yeah, but our main job, of course, is to stand between the street preachers at LGBT events and prevent any kind of confrontations from happening, that would spoil the event. And, you know, we try actively to keep any kind of confrontation from happening, so that there aren't any arrests and that everybody has their right of free speech. And everybody can enjoy themselves at the festival. LB: I'm so glad you did that and it was an education for me as well and I think one of the things I really found out about it was, the biggest danger was not really -- the scary, bad people were bad, and the LGBT people, for the most part, could move through that, because we're used to it. But the straight people that were our allies wanted to confront the anti-people and the anti-people, we knew, had made a living from suing people who had physically confronted them. They would taunt them into a physical confrontation. And I think, you know, I've been -- this Reading Pride Festival which just happened, which I don't really know how that worked, but that was the first time I haven't been at any one of the Pride Festivals in Lehigh Valley or Reading Pride. I didn't even watch it. So, I forgot that it was on. But I've been at all the main Pride Festivals and the anti-presence dwindled out. And I think it was because of you. I think it really was effective to just quietly ignore them that it was really -- BL: We like to think that. LB: Well, I think it really -- BL: We're happy to take credit for some of that. LB: I will be happy to give you credit for that, because I absolutely think that the last thing these folks wanted was for people to ignore them. BL: Well, it was also important to us to be a symbol to the LGBT community. To stand up for them and to actually stand in front of these protestors and make it clear that we aren't going to accept what they had to say either, you know? Just because we were silent, didn't mean that we weren't sending an important message. LB: That's really good. BL: And that message was being LGBT is okay, you know? LB: Yeah, yeah, yeah. BL: And we were going to protect their rights as much or even more vociferously than we would the street preachers for their right and free speech and expression of religion. And that was one of the reasons we chose rainbow umbrellas to be a really large symbol. You know, something people can see from a distance and know that people are standing up for them. AB: Yeah, at the very beginning, we recruited straight people to help us because we felt members of the LGBT community should be able to enjoy the festival. They needed to be inside the festival and so, we've recruited straight people. I remember at one point I was giving a presentation to Common Roads Kids, prior to the Harrisburg Pride. And they asked me how I could do this work. And I said, "Well, I'm straight. What these guys say means nothing to me." I said, "If they were attacking Jews, I might feel differently." And then right after that, the Westboro Baptist Church started going after the Jewish community. And suddenly it was like, "Oh no." You know, so I think that's why I know it's important work, you know? LB: Yeah. AB: When I think about the Holocaust and it's like, "Well, they came for the gays first and then they came for the Jews." So, for me, I could not stand idly by in the blood of my neighbor. And I thought it was really important that we all have to stand up for each other and let us do the heavy work, while you all be in the festival and learn and network and, you know, see who all is there. We got all these resources together for the community, let us deal with the street preachers. LB: Yeah, well, you did a great job. Thank you very much for doing that. AB: You bet. LB: I really appreciate it. So, one of the things we usually start out with is -- let me find my startup questions. Uh-oh, one, two, three. Here it is. Okay. So, you just recently moved, didn't you? To a new place? AB: Yes BL: Yes. LB: Are you hating that or loving it? AB: Well, we're -- LB: Or something in between? BL: Mostly loving. LB: Good, good. AB: Yeah, it's a brand-new house and so, we're working out some of the kinks, but it's in between two of our kids. LB: Oh, well that's good. AB: And two of our kids with grandchildren. So, it was really wonderful at first, before COVID. Because we were getting to spend so much time with the grandkids. And, you know, so, that part's been really fun. Since COVID, we went through a period of isolation because my son-in-law had to go back to work. And my daughter's working from home. And they were afraid that -- you know, they didn't want to infect us. And Blaise's son is also working from home and -- but his boys spend time with their mom and his son didn't trust that they wouldn't do something. So, we haven't really been able to see them either. Yeah, the house is great. I mean, we've got all this extra time now to fix it up. BL: And one of the reasons we moved up here is I retired. And so, getting closer to the grandkids was a priority. We also wanted more of a townhouse situation, so there wasn't any yard to take care of. And they were building some new stuff, fairly near where our grandkids are, our kids and our grandkids. And so, that was the major emphasis. But we really like this area. LB: Oh, good. BL: It's worked out well for us in a lot of different ways. LB: Good. So, it's just you two in the place? BL: Yes. LB: Because I -- BL: Us and our dog, Brighid. LB: Okay. Well, dogs matter because the animals really matter. Certainly true and I've talked to -- this is my fifteenth COVID interview and I did ten HIV/AIDS interviews for people who lived through the AIDS epidemic too. This was all crammed into this short amount of time, but the people have been vastly different, in terms of the people I've been talking to and I've just been talking to somebody who's really alone, who really doesn't even have a dog. So, it's an interesting thing to have some people who have large numbers of people in their house and other people -- how different that is for them. So, are you communicating with your grandkids and your family and stuff online? Are you doing Zoom stuff with them or -- BL: Oh, yeah. AB: Yeah, we had a situation after the kids went to virtual learning -- after the grandkids went to virtual learning. I was Skyping with the grandsons, trying to help them with their homework, because mom was still -- you know, she was still working. And their dad wasn't home, so I would Skype, so that they could share their screens and I could see what they were looking at and I would help with their homework. And that was frustrating, but also fun. You know, because at one point, you know, I would say something to one of the boys and he'd say, "Yeah, I could do this faster, but I really like being on the phone with you." But one day, he just -- he was sitting there and then he just started staring out the window and tears were just rolling down his face. And he said, "I hate COVID. I may never see you again." And I started crying and Blaise started crying. And I called my daughter and I said, "You know, we've been isolated alone, separately, how do you feel about us coming over?" And so, we started going over, wearing masks and all that kind of stuff, for a while. And then we just kind of -- you know, things have improved in Cumberland County. So, I go over several times a week now, to see them. But yeah, that was -- we were having some Zoom chats with our kids. And then some other political things happened and we -- the kids don't agree with each other and so, we've kind of cut those down to just smaller -- because we have six kids. He had three, I had two and then we adopted Ashley. And so, you know, it's a large group of kids. And we just do them individually now. BL: But we also get together weekly with a group of friends. LB: Oh, that's great. BL: We have actually started doing that in person, once a month. And we've been doing that for, what? Two years? AB: Two years. BL: And then when this hit, we decided, "You know what? While, we're not going to do what we used to do once a month, we're going to get together on a weekly basis and just check in with everybody. Make sure everybody's okay and, you know, if there's anybody in need, we'll find a way to help." And we've continued that now. The group has dwindled own to just a core few. But I still feel it's important to have that face-to-face contact, if not, person-to-person. While talking to people on the phone is nice, seeing them is just better. LB: It is. BL: And it's been important for me to be able to see people and keep in touch with them that way. LB: Yeah, good. So, let me see here. Yeah, some of this stuff is -- now, you're probably too existential for this. You are really thinking about the questions instead of people going "ahhh". So, like I just talked to somebody who was 22, they just graduated, and they were so cavalier about everything. And this is a trans kid who just graduated from Moravian and is going into graduate school at Lehigh and had to leave Moravian at the end and, you know, went -- but their parents don't support them. So, they couldn't go home. So, they had to go into -- this is the interesting story. They had to go with a friend to her house, with her parents, in Massachusetts and this young person has been there for five months with these people. And I said, "Well, are they there now?" I was talking to him and he goes, "Well, they went on vacation and she had to go back to school." I said, "You're alone in the parents' house? Where are you?" And he said, "It's Hampton, Massachusetts. It's in the middle of the woods." I said, "Well, do you go out for walks?" He said, "No, there's bears." (laughter) And then I said, "What are you doing inside?" and he said, "You know, I'm doing this stuff." And he was so calm about everything. I thought, "Okay." And this is a tough situation, you know, in a lot of ways. He goes, "Well, my cat is here." You know, so, he was just -- I thought, "This is a person." You know, I guess maybe it's a little bit of the effect of being 22 and thinking, "I've got my whole life to forget about this." BL: Well, yeah, they're pretty resilient at that age. LB: Yeah, yeah. And for those of us who are old, we're thinking, like, "Am I ever going to stop being angry?" And I was just talking to a good friend, just the last person I spoke to, and she said, "I'm angry all the time. I was never like that before. I was pissed off all the time." So, I said, "Yeah, it's going to be hard to stop doing that, if we can ever stop doing that." So, you're not working. So, you don't have to be worrying about being laid off and that's a good thing. You have family around. So, what do you think about Rachel Levine? We want to talk to everybody about that, because we love Rachel Levine. BL: You know, we love Rachel. She's just terrific. And we've known her for quite some time. AB: Yeah, we met her -- because I was going back in my mind when I saw the question. We met her at a GSA summit. Do you remember those? That Louie Marvin had started. LB: Yeah, yeah. AB: And we met Doctor Levine and we were so blown away by her presentation. We went up afterwards, you know, stood there looking like groupies. And got her contact information. And she has been such a powerful resource, even way back when. You know, because Blaise had done the Safe Zone training. And would get trans kids and needed advice. I used her as a resource for the class I taught at Lebanon Valley College. And when I saw that she was appointed by Governor Wolf, I was like, "Oh, the best person ever." LB: Yeah, I know. I know, lucky. AB: And, you know, with COVID, I watch the news -- the broadcasts of Doctor Levine and Governor Wolf, just to see her. Because she is so calm. She is just grace under fire. And I am just -- wow. We would not be where we are today in Pennsylvania, if it wouldn't be for her. BL: I wish there was somebody nationally who had her depth of understanding and compassion. Doctor Fauci is great, but he doesn't get to say much anymore and -- LB: Right, well, that's the thing. BL: We really need that. The country really needs that. And so, I think Doctor Levine has been just tremendously helpful to this state and has done an extremely important service for us. Aside from all that, I think she's just a wonderful person all the way around. And I find her completely trustworthy. Just in anything that I've heard her say or read that she's said, that I question. And it's not that I will take everything she says as gospel, but, you know, it's pretty close to it. LB: Well, I think certainly we're in the position where, you know, we don't know anything about -- this is an illness that -- I just read an article in the New York Times that said it'll be, you know, thirty years before we really understand everything about this. But the thing you can count on from her is she's not making this stuff up. She's not just saying this stuff for political clout or this would sound good or Governor Wolf is telling her to say it, you know? BL: Yeah, well, politics doesn't have anything to do with it for her. LB: Right. BL: It's just science. AB: Exactly. BL: And, you know, thank God she's as brilliant as she is. You know, she understands this stuff and can present it to us in a way that is easy to understand. And it's such a shame what's happened to her in terms of the bully online, the trolls, as it were, that just won't get past their prejudice to listen to the science. LB: Right, it's true. AB: Yeah, but the fact that, you know, when she was first appointed, I thought, "Oh my gosh, you know, a trans woman." BL: Yeah, it was a brilliant appointment on the part of the governor. LB: Yes, it was very, very smart. And, you know, how terrific that there was someone with the kind of credentials that she had and the kind of extraordinary presence and calm. I mean, this is the person who, for the most part, is not really bothered by this crap that she has to endure. The worst thing about it is not that it's happening to her, it's that for the transgender population and for our particular transgender young people who are seeing it happen to her. And it scares them because they think, "If this could happen to her, then it could happen to me." And I think I've said to our other employees -- we have now, 14 employees at the center, and I've said, "One of the things we have to emphasize is that heroes have to take crap. They always do. You know, people who are major civil rights leaders, they don't just coast through. They always have crap and one of the reasons we admire them is because they can put up with -- if it was easy, everybody would do it, you know? We wouldn't get to admire those people. BL: Well, the other thing I'd like to say about Doctor Levine is what a great role model she's been for our daughter, Ashley. LB: Oh, great. BL: You know, Ashley went -- her story has evolved over the last decade or so and I know that she has viewed Doctor Levine as her role model. And a really good one. And I know Ashley has greatly benefited from that a lot. LB: Well, that's good. That's great to hear. (Inaudible). AB: Even when you talk about heroes, you know, at one point, the street preachers would focus on us, you know, and I was a faithless Jew and Blaise was Professor Yuck and Reverend Reprobate and, you know, they would focus on us and leave everybody else alone. And so, I think that might be part of the hero's role is to take some of that crap. BL: Be the lightning rod. LB: That's a good point. AB: I hate to see it happen to Rachel, though, because of what you said. With other, trans kids being afraid. Ashley has gone through a lot of trauma recently because of the trans people who were murdered. You know, I think there was three within a two-week period. LB: Yeah, it was horrible. AB: And that was just as traumatic for her as well. So, trans kids, the whole thing with dead naming is one of the reasons why we ended up adopting her, was because she was afraid that she would be buried under a marker that had her dead name on it. So, you know, it was one of the reasons, but it's one thing that when they dead name somebody, that just is so frustrating. Yeah. LB: Yeah, I take a lot of time trying to explain that to people when I'm training, that this is just one of the worst things you can do. And in fact, I've had young trans people say that their names are even more important than the pronouns, it's really the name is what I've had several people say. So, what's your biggest concern about the pandemic? BL: Well, mine generally is how many idiots there are out there who don't take this seriously and are going to keep it going as a consequence. And that it's already -- you know, if they had just paid attention in the early month, the first month when this was coming out and done the right thing then, we'd be done with it by now and schools could open this fall safely. And instead, we're taking a crapshoot with our kids' lives. You know, I understand the economics of having the schools closed and yet, the economics don't mean a damn thing to me if what we're trading is people's lives. And so, the fact that this is going to continue for probably at least another six months, if not a year, because these people would not pay attention and would not listen to the experts, would completely denigrate the science, is just really angering. And just drives me crazy. AB: Yeah, and I think that's one thing that maybe because of the work we did with Silent Witness Peacekeepers and the amount of research we put into the idea of, you know, civil liberties and freedom of speech and all that sort of thing, that it's not what people think it is. Yes, we have civil rights, but we also have civic responsibility. And people are completely ignoring that aspect of it. Like you said, in the New York Times, there was a great article on the cult of selfishness. LB: Right, I saw that, yeah. AB: And how people are just all about themselves. They're narcissistic that, you know, they feel that wearing a mask is their right or not wearing a mask. BL: That's oppression for Pete's sake! AB: Yeah, the oppression is just -- BL: You know, it makes no sense. And it disturbs me the number of people who are like that. LB: Yeah, that's true. AB: Yeah, the number of people I've taken off my Facebook list. LB: I know, it's just very depressing, isn't it? BL: Yeah. AB: Yeah. LB: It's so hard. AB: I've dropped friends who had idiots commenting on their Facebook posts because I don't want to see it on Facebook right now. It's just more than I can stand watching that. But I think also for me and bringing this back to the LGBT community, the fact that, for instance, all the Pride Festivals have been cancelled or postponed, you know, I think back to the early days. I think it was, like, 2006, there was some problems at Harrisburg Pride, the organization was falling apart. And one of the things Blaise said was, "We have to make sure the Pride Festival keeps going, because if we don't, the street preachers are going to take credit for it." LB: (laughs) AB: And it was -- BL: So, we ended up getting involved in the organization as well. AB: Yeah, I became vice president. LB: Oh my gosh. AB: And that's what I'm thinking this summer, that the protestors and the street preachers are going to claim victory, that it's God's wrath that all these Pride Festivals had to be cancelled. And it's not true and that upsets me, and I know how important it is for the community to be at a Pride Festival. You know, all these many years that we've gone to a Pride Festival and, you know, there are people who go to every Pride Festival, every weekend. I mean, they just travel around the country going to Pride Festivals and it's so important. A safe place for them to be and they are missing out this year. I can't wait for the virtual one from you guys. LB: Yeah, it's going to be on TV even, too. So, we don't have to worry about -- and frankly, it's already made, or it's put together for the most part. We're adding things into it. I'm not involved with that. But, you know, I've done my part of it. But we don't have to worry about the kind of depressing tech issues that could happen. Which is devastating in, I think, a lot of ways. And of course, I'm not that great at pop culture, because I'm kind of isolated, but there are actually people I know that are going to be at the -- you know, that are older people. Suzanne Westenhoefer, great, you know, we couldn't afford to have her otherwise. Holly Near is going to be at our thing. AB: I know. LB: But then all of our kids, they have no idea who either of these people are. But then they have this whole set of people that they know and RuPaul people and stuff. And it really is quite an exciting thing. It was also about twenty-five percent of our budget that we make from that. Well, we're doing okay with it. AB: Okay. So, let's put down donations to the Bradbury/Sullivan Center... LB: Oh, no, it's that and the gala and we had to postpone the gala to the spring. We hope that we can have it then. But, yeah, that was a big thing. And, you know, we employ 14 people. So, it's scary for Adrian to have all these wonderful people that have jobs and then think, "Okay. If you screw this up, Adrian, I can't eat." And that doesn't apply as much to me because I'm pretty much part-time. Well, I am part-time and, you know, I don't make that much money. But it's a lot of pressure, and plus, he's doing a lot of national stuff. You know, we've been on the lawsuits against Trump and stuff like that, for trans health and it's been a big deal. So, you're staying in or are you going to the grocery store or are you just ordering stuff or what's the deal? AB: We started off just ordering stuff online and then, you know, we started going to the six a.m. senior hour. LB: I understand that, yes. AB: Around here, it's been fairly good, in terms of the stores we go to, people are wearing masks, they have the plastic up in front of everybody. And so, that helps with the confidence level. BL: We've been slowly, you know, going out, just a little bit more. We're not eating out ; we don't go to bars anyway and that sort of thing. But grocery store and an occasional short trip of some sort to, you know, our local hobby store so that we can keep busy. LB: I know what you mean, yeah. BL: But we really have limited our excursions, severely. LB: Yeah, that's what you have to do. And so, what are your hobbies? AB: Blaise picked up -- BL: I've been doing woodworking. LB: You are? Because, you know, I'm a bigtime woodworker. BL: What's that? LB: I taught woodworking and furniture design in college? BL: Oh, did you really? LB: Yeah, I have a degree and a master's degree in woodworking. BL: Oh my gosh, well, now we know who to call. LB: I got every tool. BL: I'm just doing real amateur stuff. I'm hand carving wands and, like, wizard staffs. LB: Sure, I understand. BL: I've started trying to do figural carvings, but I'm such a novice at it, they're not very good. So, it's going to take a lot of practice. Of course, I got a lot of time now. So, that was the idea, you know, that this would be something to fill some time. AB: Yeah, and I knit. And so, I've been knitting up a storm in my spare time. And I've still actually -- I'm a Healing Touch Certified Practitioner. And I've still been able to see my clients virtually and doing distance healing. I have apprentices who are still -- you know, we just do Zoom. And I've still been able to do some of that, which was only part-time to begin with. But it seems to be keeping busy. There are many days where it's like I realize I've just spent two hours scrolling through Facebook. LB: I know, it's hard to not do it. And you keep wanting to find something good. You want to find something that's -- BL: Yeah, if only. LB: It's so hard. AB: So, we've started watching movies, our old favorites, you know? And the tragic thing is, as we're watching them, there's usually something that is poignant in a way that it hadn't been before. Like, we were watching O Brother, Where Art Thou? And I had forgotten about the scene with the Ku Klux Klan. You know, so, this is, like, post-Black Lives Matter, you know? LB: Yeah. AB: And it's like, "Oh." LB: No kidding, yeah. AB: Or we were watching The Princess Bride and Fezzik asks the Man in Black, "Why do you wear a mask?" "Well, I find it rather comfortable, I think we'll all be wearing them some day." LB: Oh, geez. Oh, man. AB: Okay, there's a quote. LB: No kidding. AB: So, there's something, you know -- really re-watch Xena, the whole scene and it was like, "Oh my gosh." You know, fighting warlords and it was like, "Yeah, that's what I feel like so often." LB: I know, yeah. AB: What would Xena do? LB: Yeah, we like -- AB: Get her chakram and cut their head off, you know? LB: No kidding. We like to watch British mysteries. So, we watch all the BBC stuff. BL: Yeah, we're into that. AB: That's next. LB: But here's the problem with that, and I have maintained that this is the case, there's one or two tiny exceptions, but if there's a queer character, they're going to die. They're going to be the person that gets killed or they're going to be the murderer. Almost always. And, you know, there's, like, one episode of Father Brown where that doesn't happen. I mean, I'm talking, we've seen everything for, you know, way back to the old -- it absolutely happens. AB: Well, and that was part of my class. Yeah, I mean, we talked about that in part of my class about how that was always the case, up until recently and even now, it's mostly lesbians getting killed off in shows. And, yeah, so, that part is also -- it's like the ensign fodder on Star Trek, you know? LB: Yeah, right. Ensign fodder, that's great. Now, we were watching Death in Paradise, which is actually a fun show to watch, and it's got a lot of people of color, and you know, it's beautiful and everybody seems pretty happy and it's all about Caribbean Islands and stuff. And it's pretty light-duty. It's not really -- there's not a lot of graphic violence in it. But we were watching it and then there was a character and I thought, "Well, he's gay, so, he's going to be the killer." Because the person was already dead. And then the main character comes in, and he's the detective and he says the person's name and he says, "Is not the killer." And it's that guy and he's the gay guy. They said he's not the killer and then he says, "But you're not really him and you are the killer." And I'm like, "Oh, the gay guy's the killer." I mean, I had hope and then it was gone. It was just gone. There is a few shows that have -- there is one that has -- the Ms. Fisher series has a lesbian character in it through the whole time and it's supposed to be at the time of World War I, so, it's interesting. But her girlfriend gets murdered and she's accused of being the killer. Often that's the other thing is that they're accused of being the killer. Once in a while they get off, but it's horrible. It's just horrible. It always happens. And we still watch them because we love that genre. But it's very tough. And you run out of stuff. Particularly if you binge it. You watch a whole bunch of this stuff. Star Trek: Voyager, we do like that. So, let's see, what else can I ask you here? We said that, we said that. So, you're staying in. Okay. I just want to say that I say this is my -- I've interviewed twenty-four people and every single one has said that their biggest annoyance and biggest anger is that people aren't wearing masks and they're not taking this seriously. Everyone has said that. So, universally, among the progressive people of the world, we all are just pissed off. Like, we had to go to a doctor's appointment and every person we passed on the street -- because we hardly ever go out, we've only been out a couple of times. I realized that person's wearing a mask, that person's not wearing one, that's all she said about every single person. It's our thing. But what other kinds of frustrations or fears -- but frustrations I think would be what you would say. And there's been some small frustrations, I think, too. BL: Yeah, I don't feel as active. And I know I could go out for a walk and of course the heat's been keeping us in lately. And I really should go out for a walk and I think what's keeping me from doing it is that first fear is that, "Who am I going to run into?" LB: It's true. BL: And, you know, am I actually going to be safe doing it? And intellectually, I know I am. But mentally, you know, I've gotten to the point now, where I'm afraid of people. You know, it's not logical. It's purely an emotional response, but you know, I've become very much a homebody. And that does worry me a little bit because my mother was agoraphobic and from the time she was younger than me, she rarely went out of the house. And I don't want to be that. You know, I don't want to fall into that trap, because it's important for our health that that doesn't happen, and we get out and do things. And so, I know I'm not moving enough. I hope it doesn't become such a habit because of this, that it becomes a lifelong habit from here on out. But frankly, I'm nervous of going out. LB: Me too. AB: Yeah, and I think I mentioned earlier about Ashley having COVID. LB: Yeah, so, let's talk about that. AB: And the frustration especially that she's feeling. Because she has expectations of the -- BL: Health providers. AB: -- health providers, that they are not meeting. And then she was originally sent to the E.R. because she's on estrogen because she's transgender and the doctor was as concerned about COVID as she was about a blood clot in her lungs, pulmonary embolism. And when they decided it was COVID based on -- you know, they ruled out the blood clots and they decided it was COVID, she was sent home because it wasn't that severe. And it took a couple of weeks for her to actually start feeling better, but now she's starting to show signs of having had a stroke and cannot get adequate help, cannot get her doctor to listen to her, to understand what she's going through. And I think there's a frustration that, you know, the healthcare system is so overwhelmed that how do they give individualized attention, when they're suddenly confronted with so many cases. And they don't know what to do about it. And you have somebody who has other conditions. They talk about other things like, "Okay, if you have high blood pressure and diabetes or some kind of lung compromised or all these other kinds of things." But who's looking at transgender people with COVID and what are their unique, you know, situations. And so, that's one of my biggest frustrations is that we've been able to stay healthy. I have gone into a couple of doctor's appointments. They were extremely cautious. They were specialists, you know? So, they weren't overwhelmed. They weren't part of the frontline. We cancelled dentist appointments because that's probably where Ashley got it. Her endodontist walked into the room without a mask on and so, that's probably where she got it. So, we did end up cancelling our dentist appointments. But we're okay there. That wasn't an emergency. But the frustration with the medical system, I think that's why I go to Doctor Levine, because I can trust her. I know what's going on. You know, too bad she can't be my doctor. LB: No kidding, yeah. AB: My conviction is, are we going to be able to trust medical professionals going forward? You know, assuming that they don't all die from COVID. That's kind of huge. Especially since we're transitioning to Medicare and that sort of thing. LB: No kidding. Yeah, we went to the doctor yesterday and it was the skin doctor. So, it was a specialist kind of situation. We both went because we both had stuff. We had to go, and we went into the waiting room and all the chairs were just piled up in the corner. There were no chairs and it was an odd look, you know? It was a thing that, you know, if we get past this, we'll never see that again. It was so bizarre. And the people were great, and we felt really safe, because they know how to clean things, you know? They're good at that. But it is true that Trish just had to go to the dentist, but the dentist was literally with a mask and a plastic thing and, you know, she looked like she could have wrapped her whole body with -- and Trish said, "You will not be scared if you have to go to the dentist. I've never seen anything so remote control as the people." So, yeah, that's the thing, because when you see somebody without a mask, it makes you agoraphobic. I can understand that. I have that feeling too. Like Adrian said, "Well, maybe we can open in September." And all I was thinking was, "I'm not going. I'm not going." I said, "I'm not going unless you can guarantee me that I'm not going to get it. I'm not doing it." And I do trainings to hundreds of people. And they were asking me to do one in September and I said, "Only if you can guarantee that a high-risk person could not be in any risk at all." Well, they can't do that. So, you know, I said, "I'll do a Zoom." It's actually easier to do these interviews. The only thing that's weird about it, and you may or may not have done this, that you have no idea whether there's anyone out there. I did a training of, like, two hundred people and I said, "Well, I hope -- and I got done at the end of 90 minutes and I said, "I hope it's actually still working and the power just hasn't gone off and I'm just talking to myself." But, you know, anyway. BL: I had to do the second half of the last semester online. And it was tricky. And I know the students found it difficult. You know, this was not a format that most of them wanted and many of them found challenging. And particularly students with any kind of issues in terms of how they learn, et cetera. It's extremely challenging. And boy, I'm so glad I got to retire at the end of the semester, but I feel terrible for my colleagues who I know are so frustrated about, you know, what they are being forced to do. And, I know that my colleagues in your field, for instance, how in the world do you teach woodworking if you can't be in a woodworking lab? LB: Yeah, it can't be done. BL: I know they're just trying their damnedest to figure out how to make it a worthwhile learning experience and they're just really frustrated. You know, my field, computer science, yeah, we can get away with it, for the most part. There are some things that I found really hard to present because it's such a non-dynamic medium. And in terms of the tools we have available right now. Now, I know that's going to change. You know, next year, there is going to be a lot of development for new products that will make teaching online easier and they're going to be good. So, that the next time, it won't be so awful. But boy, it has forever changed the face of education. Particularly at the university level -- college and university level. And this is going to have a huge impact on how that whole field works from now on. LB: It's pretty interesting, I've talked to a number of college professors, I think three so far, in this group, and they're all really different. Because some of them were already doing distanced learning classes and they were pretty set up for it and one of them I'm about to interview on Thursday, right from the minute it happened had to rewrite every single thing she did. Everything she did was discussion classes and there was all this presentation by the students and everything and she said, "I don't know how to do this. I don't even know how to use the tools." So, I know she pulled it off, but she's at East Stroudsburg. And she's going to be moving right into the semester right away and it's very hard. So, yeah, what a tricky thing to do. And then you didn't even have to walk at the graduation. You just waved. BL: Yeah, yeah. AB: Yeah, well, Blaise is a computer scientist. So, you know, already, he's technologically savvy, but, you know -- BL: That doesn't mean it was easy. LB: No kidding. AB: So, I feel bad for people who don't have a background in computer science. LB: Sure, well, anybody who has to rewrite a class in the middle of the class -- people don't understand how hard it is to get these things in place. I taught woodworking at State University of New York for the first part of my career and a different life. And it couldn't be done. You would have just shut it down. There's no way that you could -- it's like you can't take this stuff home to do as homework either. So, now, ceramics people gave people clay and told them to take it home and that happened at Cedar Crest apparently, that they just said, "Here's a whole bunch of clay, make stuff." What a strange thing to do, really, because that doesn't really work. You know, you can't really do it that way. So, it's sort of a fake thing. So, that's a terrible story about Ashley and had you known other people that have had it or have been -- AB: Friends. The daughter of one of our friends was in New York. She was a chaplain and she came down with COVID and she was really sick for about a month. BL: But recovered, she totally recovered. AB: Seems to be recovered and another friend who had moved to New York also recovered. She was really sick for about two months, was not hospitalized, but just took a very long time to recover. But also, you know, so, we haven't really known anybody personally who died from it. One of his daughters works in a nursing facility in Baltimore -- outside of Baltimore and she's been really lucky. One employee tested positive, but showed no symptoms. And nobody in their facility had COVID, at least as of right now. So, that was, you know, pretty lucky. And my nephew works in Country Meadows with people in the dementia unit. LB: Oh, golly. AB: He said, you know, as much as he complains about having to wear a mask and shield and all the protective gear, he said, "We still don't have a case." LB: Wow. AB: So, we've been probably among the lucky ones in regard to that. LB: There's a facility in Allentown -- outside of Allentown. It's something Gardens, I think. And Steve Ziminsky was telling me that his former roommate is there now, and he has a pretty serious heart condition, so he can't do very much. Not very old, he's in his 60s. And they had one hundred people who tested positive. BL: Oh my. LB: And it's not a very big facility, including him. Including this guy. And I don't know how many deaths they had. I don't think they were telling. But one hundred people and a lot of them were a significant numbers of care workers too. So, that's a lot of stuff. So -- BL: That's a very high-density situation. AB: Right. LB: Yeah, and -- BL: You know, once it gets introduced, it's going to spread like crazy. LB: Sure. Well, I have a friend who is a pediatrician and she actually had it and was very, very sick, but she said that, you know, the parents have said, "Well, do you think it's okay for my kid to go to daycare?" And she said, "Has your kid ever gone to daycare and not gotten sick from something that -- you know, they're going to get it. They're going to get it." And so, I just read an article in the New York Times today that said -- and I don't know if I believe this, but that younger kids don't seem to be as likely to get it. Particularly children under five. And it's even possibly because when they cough and sneeze, when they're around other five-year-olds, they don't spew out as much as we do when we sneeze, as big as adults do. It seems unrealistic to me. It seems like an unrealistic thing. There's some other factors that have to do with receptors in little children's bodies that aren't as big, I guess, and they're not as likely to latch onto viruses. But it's not like kids don't get the flu. So, I don't know what that's about. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Go ahead. AB: And looking at the data, you know, because they keep pointing to data from Germany and, I don't know, Sweden and Israel and, you know, it's like, "Oh, they had no problem." They also didn't have the same number of cases that we have. Israel did have problems opening with COVID and the kids. And I think it's -- yeah, they may not be getting COVID, but whether or not they spread it, whether they can carry it home is another thing that we don't know. LB: Right, we don't know. That's really the thing. AB: You know, and if somebody lives in Montana, one hundred miles away from the nearest case of COVID, have at it. Open your school and go for it. In an area where, you know, you haven't flattened the curve yet or it's still kind of -- you know, I think it's a big risk. My daughter's school district has decided to start with online, virtual classrooms. And then reevaluate it every month. LB: That's wise. AB: His son's youngest is going to be going to school, but he has learning disabilities. And those are the kids they're bringing back and they're going to -- BL: In a hybrid. AB: In a hybrid system. I think two days a week, appropriately distanced and all that kind of stuff, to see how they do. Because they're the ones who are really suffering from the virtual classroom. So, yeah, I don't know, it's kind of -- you know, do I want to risk my grandkids for an experiment? LB: No kidding. Yeah, you know, I was talking to Steve Ziminksy, he was a school -- he was a music teacher in Allentown School District for many, many years. And he was telling me about things that I hadn't thought of and one of them is that a lot of Allentown schools are not air conditioned. So, what they do is, if it's really hot, they take the kids that are in the hottest rooms and they put them all down in one big, air-conditioned room, like the auditorium. Well, that's not an option. And he said, "How are they going to do that? What are they going to do when it's ninety degrees on September, you know, fifteenth?" Well, tough luck kids. Some of you get to be in air conditioning. AB: That could have been factored into my daughter's school situation because they don't have air conditioning in their elementary schools. That could have been a factor in their decision not to bring the kids back. But air conditioning is still -- LB: Yeah, if you don't have filters. AB: If the air conditioning works, that could spread it through the whole school. LB: Sure, yeah. It's a Legionnaires' kind of thing. It could be. So, do you want to say anything about Black Lives Matter? Because I'm asking everybody about that. You know, we can't talk about COVID without talking about that and without talking about politics because it's the deal. BL: It is one of the frustrations that we can't be out on the street with them. LB: No kidding, no kidding. BL: I mean, it's driving me nuts that I can't go downtown and help. Alanna and I and I'm sure you as well, since we were teenagers have been fighting for equal rights. It's frustrating, first of all, that we still have to do it. But, you know, after fifty years. But still, that's our first instinct is to go out and, you know, hold signs ourselves and protest. You know, there's no question in my mind that this can be a watershed moment. Whether it's going to be a positive one or a negative one is yet to be seen. I think the current administration is doing everything they can possibly do to make this as bad as it can possibly get. They are taking the exact wrong approach and clearly making things worse, rather than any attempt to make them better. You know, it is so easy to demonstrate that black folks and others of color are so oppressed, and they have been for four hundred years. And while the oppression is somewhat subtler these days, it's still there. And we have got to get past that, or we will never reach the potential that this country could reach. AB: You know, I actually lived in North Carolina when I was younger, and it was a really difficult time. My father was invited to join the Ku Klux Klan. And they apparently didn't realize he was Jewish. We had black maids and watching that and participating in that oppression. You know, the signs that said, "Colored only," or "Whites only." You know, growing up with that was painful. And then, you know, coming back to the north -- because we were damn Yankees down there, but then coming back to the north and the race riots in the high school where I was at, you know, in the seventies. And then, you know, fast forward to -- it was about the same time we started the Freedom to Marry work. We also got involved in anti-racism work. And so, that was around 2004. I know the people we were doing it with just didn't understand the anti-racism. "I'm not racist" kind of thing. And I had worked and collectively owned and operated an anti-profit community restaurant, a Kosher restaurant, in the seventies. And it was like, that went off for me. We were anti-profit. We weren't non-profit. We were against the machinery that made money on food. You know, that made such outrageous profits on food. And so, for me, suddenly that made sense to me. And it's like, to be anti-racist means you are against the system. And it took me even longer to figure out what those systems were. And as an individual, they are so hard to deconstruct. You know, there's nothing I can do as an individual about the property taxes that cause people of color to be isolated in poor school districts. And so, understanding that and explaining that to people -- and that's what actually has caused the civil war in our own family is that some of them -- "But I'm not racist." It's like, "That's not the point." And trying to explain that to people who don't want to hear it, you know? "Well, how can you tell me that I've benefited from white privilege? I have no money, you know, I have all these problems. How can you say I benefited from white privilege?" "Well, let me walk you through some of the exercises." Because we have done a lot of work and it's so distressing to be fifty years from Reverend Doctor Martin Luther King Junior and say, "Oh my gosh, you know, we are no farther, except that so many people are paying attention now." LB: It's true. AB: Almost every company that I do online business with has sent me emails, outlining specifically what they are doing to educate their employees. They're donating to the right organizations, they are setting up, you know -- BL: Well, they're strengthening their policies. AB: Yeah, but they're also setting up opportunities for young people of color, so that they can, you know, be mentored and get skills and things like that. So, beyond the protests, I feel like there is hope that this time, we're going to make it work. And the continuing protests hopefully will hold people's feet to the fire. So, it's -- BL: It's all we can hope for. AB: Yeah, we can't let our guard down. LB: No, that's for sure. BL: But it's real frustrating that we can't be more actively involved. LB: No kidding. And we had this thing in Allentown, I don't know if you know that whole thing that happened in Allentown where the person was arrested for being sick and then kneeling on his head. And, you know, it happened five blocks from this window that I'm looking at and I couldn't go to it. And Adrian was there. He actually was there at midnight and he texted me and he said, "This is happening." And I know he did that because he wanted to know if I wanted to come over. I mean, I was just down the street and I said to Trish -- and then they had another protest the next night. And I said, "I think we should go to this." And the look on her face, because she's very, very at risk. And she's worried about me. And I had very severe lung issues when I was a teenager, so, I don't know, you know, whether that would affect me or not. I've been breathing wood dust my entire life too. So, I don't know, but she's really, really at risk and she has lupus and a lung disease and all sorts of stuff. So, I really deliberated and then I looked at the pictures. I could see the thing that was happening. It was live. And I could see these kids and they were chanting and yelling without masks on. Not a lot of them, but a couple of them. And I thought, "I can't do it. I can't do it." BL: You know, it's -- LB: All I have to do is be right next to somebody who's shouting out and I understand that passion. I understand why they want to chant and yell and stuff like that. But -- BL: Yeah, really want to be there. It's tearing us apart that we can't participate. LB: I understand it. I understand. Wow, it's very tough. And -- AB: Well, the other thing too is the intellectual level. While everybody in the country is up in arms about Black Lives Matter, the whole idea of intersectionality comes into play. Because while everybody's yelling about this, Trump is taking away healthcare for LGBT people. You know, here's where the news is focused, so, let's take away these rights from LGBT people and put more kids in cages. And so, that whole divide and conquer thing. BL: And misdirection. He's good at that. AB: Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I'm hopefully more than anything. That's where I have hope is that we are going to actually start doing things. And if we can get a lot of these old white men out of office, you know, and I hate to say -- I don't want to limit it to Republicans, because I'm not sure the old, white Democrats are doing much better. Their hearts are in the right place, but they don't have the fire. But that whole notion of this patriarchal, you know, daddy thing. That daddy knows best and he's punishing the kids and, you know, mom has to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen and, you know, that is -- we got to stop that somehow. And, you know, I'm kind of on the fence with AOC. You know, her recent preaching was just brilliant. LB: It was brilliant. It was totally brilliant. And Trish was playing it and she goes, "Sit down and listen to this." And I said, "Okay. That was brilliant." And every single person that I know that listened to it said, "Okay. That was brilliant." And, you know, even the criticism didn't make any sense, you know? BL: Right. AB: Right. LB: Well, she shouldn't be talking out. And that's the biggest danger I think, is when we have people that say, in sort of the guise of, "Well, you have to be able to -- I mean, everybody needs to be calm and self-care and stuff like that, but don't push self-care so far that you're not doing anything, you know? That you're not speaking out and that you just accept this. That you accept things and that things happen for a reason." Yeah, because there's racists. Well, we're going to change it, you know? They happen for a reason that's stupid. So, let's fix that reason. But it's very tough. I think it's very tough right now for people like us too, because we're -- BL: It also seems like we're at a period of history where a lot of confluences are coming together. And I do have a little bit of hope that, in fact, this is going to bleed over into the election and beyond. And have enough momentum to actually carry us forward, rather than backwards. I'm not entirely optimistic about it, but I've got that sort of hidden hope that, you know, there's going to be such a backlash from all of this nonsense, that we are in fact going to make progress this time. But, you know, we've kind of felt that way before. You know, when we got us out of Vietnam we thought, "Oh yeah, you know, we're going to beat the, you know, industrial complex." AB: The military industrial complex. BL: The military industrial complex. AB: We got Nixon impeached, yes. LB: I know, it's like this. BL: Yeah, and that we're going to start taking care of people. Well, didn't quite happen, did it? So, you know, I'm cautiously optimistic in that respect. I do have kind of good feelings about this next election that we are in fact going to be able to make some massive changes. But boy, do we got to get out -- LB: Yeah, I tell you, the thing that is most positive for me was seeing that a lot of the Black Lives Matters protests and the people who were protesting within this, it's very energy-charged and a lot of them were young people. And the young people vote is what brought us to Obama. And which did not bring us to Hillary Clinton because there wasn't that college student vote. And right now, college students are really pissed off. And they need to understand that it doesn't have to be this way and even their college loan things and stuff and the plans that -- it is true that the plans -- the Biden campaign has some very good steps that are probably from Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, for paying off student loans and stuff. Which these young people have to recognize is this has to be done, and it's not even that much money. I mean, really, in the grand scheme of things, it helps them to be able to have more disposable income, which kind of takes care of taxes and stuff. And it ends up balancing it out. So, that -- BL: My two big agenda items are that and the universal healthcare. LB: That's true. BL: If we don't get universal healthcare passed, we are just never going to get anywhere. I really think that the whole medical system is a disaster. You know, it started when they started deregulating it and allowing it to make profit, et cetera. And it's real easy to show all the other countries that have universal healthcare, how much better their societies are. How much better protection everybody has. LB: And the direct relationship of COVID's proliferation, because people didn't have healthcare and because they were sick, they couldn't take days off and you know how that continued to happen. Yeah. BL: Well, anyway, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that we're going to have a big year. LB: I hope so. I hope so as well. BL: God help us if we don't. LB: Yeah, all right. So, one more thing that I hope that -- this archive project is really fascinating and we're having a wonderful time with Muhlenberg and Lehigh University working on this too. So, they've done a bunch of older LGBT people talking about all this stuff that happened. I often thought that all the stuff we did to pass all our ordinances nobody would know about that. And I've been talking about that a lot. And they transcribe it and it's really terrific and it's all searchable and you can get it in all the papers that we say, like, "Why are you doing this stuff?" And now, it's all in the archives and all digitalized and, you know, all the Valley Gay Presses that I made, one of the things that happened was, I was talking to Kristen Leipert, who I'm actually working with now on these things that I'm doing, like last year. And I was talking about the LGBT March on Washington in 1993. And I said, "Well, Trish and I went together to that and we've been together for several years. About six years by the time we went to that." And then I said, "We both were at the 1987 march, but we weren't together there." And Kristen goes, "Yeah, I know." And I said, "How do you know that?" And she said, "Because I read all the papers as I digitalized them, and I read all the stories and I know everything about your life. (laughter) Great, somebody does. So, she said that she knows everything. And then she'll says things like, "I found this video of the first Pride Festival. Who can you identify in the thing?" So, I'd watch the whole two-and-a-half-hour thing and I said, "Well, there's me way in the back." Because they only did the front. They only videotaped the front and I named a lot of people that were there and stuff. And it was very interesting to see, you know, I think all those people look the same as they do now, even though it was, you know, twenty-seven years ago and I'm the same. I still have those pants, you know, that kind of stuff. (laughter) Which always happens to me. I actually said, like, "Is that me? Oh yeah, I remember those pants." (laughter) But the whole thing has been very terrific and one of the things I hope and one of the reasons for this is to collect information from people who are talking about what's happening now, so people in the future can look back at this and say, "These are real people and how this was affecting them." And we don't have that for the flu epidemic of 1918, when my grandmother died. My grandmother died of the flu in 1918. So, what do you want to say to people thirty years from now or forty years from now or fifty years? BL: I hope life is better. LB: Just a soundbite. A soundbite. AB: Yeah, you know, a young person called me about the Defund the Police Movement and, you know, she had a questionnaire and we walked through the questionnaire and I talked about how I've been doing this work for 50 years and I really thought it would be solved by now. You know, when I was a teenager, I thought this would all be a thing of the past and it's not. And I go back and forth between anger and despair. And the one day I was talking to my grandson and he wanted to know about history. And so, you know, we were talking about history and he said, "Well, I'm really afraid the world's going to fall apart." He said, "This anti-racism work," he said, "I need to get involved in that." He's nine. "I need to get involved in that anti-racism work." He said, "I feel bad that I can't save the world." And it was like, "Oh my gosh, that's how I feel. And I said to him, "You know, I often feel like that, but what got me through was the idea of think globally, act locally. Change your own little part of the world." And, you know, I raised my kids to be, you know, anti-racist. And, you know, my daughter married a black man and our son married a Vietnamese refugee. We have a transgender daughter. And so, we've got this conglomeration of culture and ethnicity in our own little family. And so, they don't care about skin color and things like that. And we started Silent Witness Peacekeepers, you know? LB: Right. AB: And we created that in our own little part of the world, and we made such a difference. And so, if everybody does that, if everybody does their part, then maybe we will change the world. And that's what I told the young woman. I said, "I don't want to make any assumptions. You sound like you're young." I said, "We thought we were going to turn over this utopia to you guys and you still have to do the work. And you know, we're here to help. We can't be out there anymore marching, but we're more than willing to support you in the ways that we can." And so, if somebody is watching this thirty years from now and the world is a much better place, yay. BL: Yay. AB: If not, you know what? Ask -- BL: Sorry about that. AB: Yeah, because we're more than happy to, you know, listen when they complain and give them advice if they need it and do whatever we need to do. BL: Yeah, obviously, we've always felt it's incumbent on all of us to take positive steps toward a better future. And not just complain. But, you know, take an active role, as much as you can. You know, not everybody has to be out there on the street. But as much as you possibly can to support that movement forward. I hope to God it's better thirty years from now. And if it isn't, we're sorry. We're doing everything that we can think of to do. I'd like to think that the last three years or so in particular, have been an aberration that doesn't get repeated. Unfortunately, I also know from history and looking back thirty years in the past, what they did then that has continuing repercussions now, in a negative way. And I hope that the steps we're taking now lead to more positive than negative. And by the time thirty years from now -- you know, universal healthcare in particular, I think, if that hasn't become a reality, I just don't have any hope for the country at all. If they haven't done more to make reparations for the centuries of oppression of people of color, I don't have any hope for this country. AB: Or the indigenous people. BL: Yes, them as well. As a country, we have to own what it cost other people to make it what so many people think of as the greatest country in the world. Yeah, we're not the greatest in many, many ways. AB: No, right now we're the third world banana republic. LB: No kidding. BL: I think the ideals of the country are wonderful, you know, the phrase that all men are created equal is probably one of the greatest phrases ever written. And yet, even at the time it was written, they didn't mean it. LB: It wasn't true, yeah. BL: We have to mean it. And if another thirty years goes by and we haven't made great strides in meaning it in this country, then I'd say the experiment's a failure. But I'm hoping that's not going to be the case. Obviously, I'm trying to do whatever I can. And we all are, in this family for sure, trying to do what we can to live up to those ideals. And to make sure that nobody feels like they're on the outside. AB: And that's assuming we haven't fried the earth. LB: And then there's that. BL: Yeah. AB: Yeah, I remember being part of the first Earth Day. LB: Me too. AB: I was in high school. We formed the Clean Earth Association and we got permission to have an assembly. And, you know, we were out there educating in 1970. You know, and I started habits back then. Like turning off the water when I brushed my teeth. And every time I do that, I think I've been doing this since 1970. LB: Well, we're doing what we can do. We've got a history of doing what we can do. And we do have to recognize that, you know, if you look back to the 1950s, it's pretty much a sucky time. You know, the McCarthy Era and rampant Jim Crow and, you know, pre-Martin Luther King. And the beginnings of the Vietnam War and witch hunts and terrible government. And certainly, the incarceration of LGBT people. BL: Yeah, one of the things I've always said to Alanna is, particularly when we were working on the issue of same-sex marriage, was I'd like to keep Susan B. Anthony in mind. She worked her entire adult life, into her nineties, trying to get them the vote for women and it didn't happen in her lifetime. But it did happen. LB: Yeah, it's true. BL: And, you know, what's to say, you know -- I can't even think of the saying that I want to project at this point. But, you know, just because it's not going to be effective in our lifetime, doesn't mean we are free from the responsibility of trying to make it happen in our lifetime. LB: That's true. BL: And that's something that I've always lived by, that I've tried to pass on to my children and obviously we're trying to pass it on to our grandkids. AB: Yeah, the ethics of the fathers. You may not finish the work in your lifetime, but neither are you free to desist from it. BL: I knew she'd know the quote. LB: Good for you. Well, that's a terrific note to end on. Thank you so much for saying that. Thank you so much for talking to me. You've been very inspirational. BL: Thanks for asking us in. AB: Yeah, it's amazing. BL: We're very honored. AB: Yes, very honored and it's wonderful seeing you again. LB: It's great to see you too. I will give Trish a hug. I'm going to turn off the recorder now. Oh, whoops. Wait, oh no. BL: Don't tell me you didn't record it. LB: So, I just did this entire recording with forgetting to do the video of this. But I did do the audio. Thank goodness. I missed Blaise Liffick and the wonderful Alanna Berger. Both of them from Silent Witness talking about brilliant things. We have the entire audio recording. They will make the transcript from this. So, there will be a written transcript from this as well. Oh, does this suck big. I'm very, very sorry. Maybe I'll come back to you, because everything you said was brilliant. Maybe when you go, you'll go, "Oh, I forgot to say this thing." (laughter) BL: Anytime, Liz. LB: Oh, no, not anytime. This is so tough for you to do this. But you did a wonderful job and I really, really appreciate it. I can't believe I didn't do that. I even looked at the thing and said, "Is the thing on?" But the red light wasn't on. What a fool. Well, I've only done that -- this is the first time I've done that in all of these. But I did get the audio. But luckily, I said, "Oh, I don't have the audio on. Let me turn it on." So, that was good. I might have to come back and do you again. Maybe next week. BL: We could sit and read the transcript, how's that? LB: You could, maybe. Maybe do that. (laughter) No, that would be wrong. That wouldn't be good. Well, think about -- I think that the things that you said were brilliant and I did get all of the audio of it. And I'm so terribly sorry that I messed this up. BL: Oh, it's fine. LB: I can't believe it. AB: And you are recording now, right? LB: Yes, I'm recording both of the things now. So, say that thing that you said at the end of the statement that you said about -- AB: Oh, from the Pirke Avot the ethics of our fathers. You may not complete the work in your lifetime, but neither are you free to desist from it. LB: Well, that was brilliant. That was the gist of the entire interview, which is in the audio. Thank God I got the audio. I'm sweating because I've messed this up. So, anyways, well, I do have the audio, thank God. So, I do have the transcript for that, and I think that will work, because people will look at it and stuff. Thank you. And I actually think that we have a -- and I'm going to encourage them to do this, to be sure that you're on this. This is an ongoing grant through Lehigh University that they have been doing these oral histories. And they've done a number of people. It takes them a lot longer to do these things than it takes me to do it. They have a team. But they've done, I think, ten people and they're doing me now. And I said, "You can't do it all in ninety minutes, because I have a lot of things to say and I have another interview next Monday. But I think that they should talk to you particularly about the stuff you've done for Silent Witness and your lives too, because you've had such a significant life and I'm going to make them do this, since I screwed this up. So, they're going to get in touch with you in the next round of grant stuff. And I'll force Mary Foltz to do this. She's a wonderful interviewer. Much better than I, because I can't shut up and she'll let you actually talk. And I think that your life experience has been so significant and I think that's a very, very important thing for us to be able to include into the oral history, because your involvement with the LGBT community has been extraordinarily significant. Our Pride Festival and the -- and now, we're running it through the center. It's been twenty-seven festivals and the circumstances of the anti-LGBT and the anti-preachers that would come were getting worse and worse. To the point where it was one time we had a guy that set up next to our booth, while we were trying to get to sign and he just screamed through a megaphone the entire time of the entire festival. And it was impossible to actually engage people because of that. And that wouldn't have gone away. That was before when you started to do something. AB: Yeah, and that was something that -- you know, we did a lot of research on -- and we worked with the Harrisburg Police. The Harrisburg Police were great back then, as were Parks and Rec. Through so many of the lawsuits, they had great advice for us. And we also worked with Steve Glassman. We studied Supreme Court cases on freedom of speech. We followed, you know, who the street preachers were. And, you know, looked at their lawsuits. And so, we actually did a lot of work to get where we were. You know, for instance, we would take these packets of information with us and show them to the police beforehand, because we'd always meet with the police. And, you know, well, they're not allowed to interfere with this, because that was a Supreme Court case decision. And so, the police went, "Oh, really?" You know, so, those were the kinds of things that, you know, we were able to do. We were more than just a pretty umbrella. LB: Oh, no, I was there. I remember it and I remember a couple of Freedom to Marry things that were particularly hard when you weren't there or when you weren't there. Not Freedom -- not just Silent Witness, but you particularly weren't there. And sometimes the other Silent Witness people didn't quite know how to convince the police that the preacher with the megaphone standing behind us, doing the presentation, was not really supposed to be doing that. And how they were breaking the rules. BL: We have a particular knowledge set that is hard to pass on. LB: It's really important to be able to have that and to have the presence to convince people, you know, you're going to get in trouble if you do it the wrong way. AB: Yeah, but Doctor Blaise Liffick was able to get through to the police in ways that a lot of other people can't. LB: Yeah, thank you for doing that. AB: So, his thirty-nine years of teaching at the college level really came in handy. LB: Okay. Well, I'm going to stop this now, for real. AB: Okay. LB: And stop that, for heaven sakes. And I just wanted to say I'm going to stop the recording now. END OF AUDIO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. audio This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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01:32:28
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Title
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Alanna Berger and Blaise Liffick, July 28, 2020 (audio only)
Description
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Blaise Liffick and Alanna Berger talk about how the current COVID19 pandemic is affecting them. They talk about their recent move to be nearer to their adult children, Blaise’s retirement from teaching college, and how the end of the semester was remote learning. They discussed their many years of commitment to civil rights and the support of the LGBT community through the Silent Witness programs. They talked about the LGBT people in their family and how COVID-19 has affected their work and health from having the virus.
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PH40_07
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
Date
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2020-07-28
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audio
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Copyright remains with the interview subject and their heirs.
-
https://lgbt.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/46925956807999697b28a8d60f1ae460.png
08d671fc0995a60f3dc77aca162c524c
Dublin Core
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Title
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
An account of the resource
In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Kristen Leipert
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Christina Peyroux
OHMS Object
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_33.xml
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5.4 Unknown Date Christina Peyroux, July 29, 2020 PH40_33 00:44:33 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Christina Peyroux Kristen Leipert video/mpeg PeyrouxChristina_20200729_video.mp4 1.0:|27(2)|58(8)|81(11)|102(14)|127(13)|156(6)|177(4)|194(4)|217(8)|242(9)|261(5)|284(12)|309(2)|330(14)|351(5)|372(13)|397(9)|418(7)|437(8)|458(12)|481(7)|502(14)|519(16)|540(10)|561(9)|584(12)|607(7)|626(12)|651(5)|672(13)|693(11)|716(15)|739(13)|762(7)|783(15)|804(5)|823(4)|840(4)|861(12)|876(4)|893(12)|916(7)|929(15)|948(7)|959(5) 0 https://youtu.be/IrX6vj-n6qE YouTube video 0 Interview Introduction KRISTEN LEIPERT: My name is Kristen Leipert and I’m here with Christina Peyroux to talk about her experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of the Covid-19 pandemic as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive. Our project has funding from the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium. We are meeting on Zoom on July 29, 2020. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start can you please state your full name and spell it for me?
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 ; CHRISTINA PEYROUX: Yes, my name is Christina Peyroux, C-H-R-I-S-T-I-N-A Peyroux P as in Paul, E-Y-R-O-U-X as in x-ray.
 ; 0 139 How the pandemic has affected home life and working in the Lehigh Valley Health Network KL: This is a really general starting question and you can take it wherever. How has the Covid-19 pandemic affected your life and this could be your work life, personal life, social life, sex life, anything.
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 ; CP: First off, I graduated college in Washington, D.C. and then I moved back to Pennsylvania to live with my grandmother. I am a registered nurse, so I started nursing this year, she finished nursing this year. She retired. 0 291 Starting nursing job before Covid-19 pandemic KL: So you graduated this year?
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 ; CP: May 2019.
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 ; KL: Were you still in school when this started and then got the job or was it kind -- I don’t know how that works because now I’m fascinated, now it’s like I’m just asking you this for me.
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 ; CP: That’s fine, absolutely, my hospital does this program for nursing students where you can be something called a technical partner, sometimes known as nurse aides, throughout nursing school so that you maintain a job and then you can be an internal hire. So I already had the job upon graduating[...] 0 505 Experience living with grandmother KL: Yeah, so you’ve been protecting your grandmother but has she also been -- I mean she’s obviously a good person that you can bounce your whole day off of and I bet she is just I was going to say loving everything you have to say to her, but I don’t know if that’s the right word.
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 ; CP: Yeah because, it’s funny because, you know, we’re two generations apart and in the nursing or any medical field that’s huge I mean every five years they come out with new studies let alone sixty years. 0 589 Socializing during the pandemic KL: I was going to say because you’re working, and you know so like your social life are you like maintaining friendships, I don’t know, video friending?
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 ; CP: When you’re in nursing school you don’t really have a social life. The on-running joke is like choose three: eating, sleeping, social life, and good grades. You can’t have it all. So usually, nine times out of ten your social life is what is nonexistent and it’s really unfortunate because when I was in college, you know it’s, you’re focused. 0 757 Exercising during the pandemic/taking care of self during the pandemic KL: I had a question and now I don’t remember it. Oh so you’re active in sports are you trying to get outside now, do you -- I know those are like the mental things I think that during this time are probably like super helpful.
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 ; CP: Yes, I actually for the first time since I was like four years old decided to not be on a team sport after college, I am working out like by myself. 0 867 Spending time with girlfriend during pandemic CP: And I’ve also been able to spend more time than I thought with my girlfriend. She actually moved to Virginia after college but then Covid hit and her job became remote, so she actually moved back to PA to live with her parents which is a like an hour or so from me. So on times when I have like a few days off or long weekends, I go there or she comes here. 0 929 Positive results of the pandemic KL: What other positive things have come out of it, do you have any like fun hobbies or no you’re just?
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 ; CP: Positive: my grandmother has a pretty large property and she has a large house for being here by herself for so long. She bought a house that would be able to comfortably live her, her son’s family and my mother’s family. So she has enough room for eight people in this house. 0 1063 Wondering about future work/staffing prospects CP: I wonder how life is going to be like in the future after all this kind of calms down? I think it’s made a lot of business owners and a lot of people realize what jobs aren’t really needed per se. And I don’t want to say needed for lack of a better term, but there are a lot of people that I feel like their staffing is going to drop, because they realize that they can function without it. 0 1131 Working at full functioning capacity during the pandemic at Lehigh Valley Hospital-Cedar Crest branch KL: So now has your unit gone back?
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 ; CP: Yes, we have. We are at full functioning capacity. I mean think about it, people who were intending to come into the hospital for all these things got delayed, now everybody’s coming in all of a sudden and everybody’s coming in worse because everybody delayed it. 0 1240 Taking care of mental health during the pandemic KL: Well some of our categories are about social life and personal pursuits which gardening is now your new. And then mental and physical health.
 ; 
 ; CP: Yes, on that note my therapist was like, who I’ve been seeing for years, is like maybe you should start journaling, and I’m really not the kind of person that opens up a journal at the end of the day and says “today I did this,” I’m just not that kind of person. 0 1351 Taking precautions because of Covid/Being mindful of potentially effecting the health of others CP: I’ve also had to invest in other gear, like other uniforms, because they’re getting used so heavily. I’ve bought other like scrub caps, yeah, I’ve gone through a lot of stuff. And my floor, they try to keep completely free of anyone who has the virus. They send people to my floor who are immunocompromised, so my floor is like relatively safe unless I get floated somewhere else. So I bring everything home, we have a shower on the first floor, I hop right in the shower, I throw my uniform right in the washer and she stays upstairs the entire time. 0 1643 Wearing a mask during the pandemic CP: Someone else might literally die from it, so people come up to me because they see me and like, they know I’m a nurse, and they’re like “so what about these masks, do you believe they work, blah blah blah”, and I tell them straight up front I’m like “I’m wearing my mask for your benefit. I’m wearing my mask, not because I think I’m going to get sick, and I’m afraid of me getting sick, but because if I have it or I get it and I pass it to you, you might die”. 0 1884 Changed work routines at Lehigh Valley Hospital-Cedar Crest branch during the pandemic KL: Now I’m totally asking you, are you tired talking about this yet. Do they have Covid patients? I mean how is that for you every day go into work, I mean everything’s isolated, but do you get daily briefings of what’s going on?
 ; 
 ; CP: So when Covid originally started and all the procedural units that were like ours, but couldn’t be customized into a medical surgical, like a generalized floor, a lot of their staff was either furloughed or floated, and they had staff posted at every entrance to the hospital scanning temperatures for every staff member and every visitor. 0 1971 How working during the pandemic has affected nursing career moving forward/may affect the nursing career in general CP: There are people in the nursing profession for like I said 60 years and they have never experienced anything like this. And I was right on the end, the tail end of normalcy, so I’ve seen both worlds. And like I said, there are nurses who have been in this profession for years and they’re like we’re all on the same level - now there’s no seniority with this. One has no practice with all of this, it’s just everybody’s trying to help each other survive. 
 ; 0 2113 Comparisons between the AIDS epidemic and Covid-19 pandemic KL: But I mean you know listening to some people saying how you know people didn’t want to take care of people that had AIDS in the beginning, you know like all this stuff and having to suit up when going into their brother in a hospital room and like the nurses not wanting to take care of them so the family had to do it, you know, and it’s interesting to see that comparison or just yeah all of this you know.
 ; 
 ; CP: Yes, and you make a valid point. Like, when we learned about the AIDS crisis, that happened and the nursing care that was provided, or even in some cases not provided, it’s, I’d like to think, very different from how we’re handling it today -for the better. 0 2211 Finding humor when nursing KL: What a sad conversation, anything fun you want to talk about?
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 ; CP: I mean I don’t know. It is what it is, this is my life now. That’s another thing I think nursing really, like a lot of the people if you ever have nursing friends or colleagues that were nurses, their view of life and their sense of humor are vastly different from common Joe, just because, I mean at the end of the day or night when we give a report and we’re like all of our patients are alive, like that’s great! 0 2360 Communicating with LGBTQ community members digitally CP: I think that during Covid, a lot of people in the LGBTQ community have found each other over long distances, because they’ve been forced to, because you weren’t able to see your normal web of people in person. You were forced to use a lot more social media or long distance things which almost eliminated the distance. 0 2501 Looking forward to going to LGBTQ businesses/LGBTQ community events after the pandemic CP: I am looking forward to going to more events with people, like from the community. Like I miss, like D.C., there’s so many LGBTQ friendly bars or dance floors, clubs, anything, you name it. I miss that and I do go to like Pride whenever it’s available but it’s nice that we have been able to like enjoy ourselves and have pride in ourselves without the big fanfare and the big parade. 0 MovingImage Christina Peyroux discusses her experiences during the COVID-19 pandemic including how it has effected her job in nursing and living with her grandmother, a retired nurse. Christina Peyroux 2020-07-29 KRISTEN LEIPERT: My name is Kristen Leipert and I'm here with Christina Peyroux to talk about her experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of the Covid-19 pandemic as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive. Our project has funding from the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium. We are meeting on Zoom on July 29, 2020. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start can you please state your full name and spell it for me? CHRISTINA PEYROUX: Yes, my name is Christina Peyroux, C-H-R-I-S-T-I-N-A Peyroux P as in Paul, E-Y-R-O-U-X as in x-ray. KL: Will you share your birthdate? CP: Yes, 11/22/1996. KL: This is the consent portion. Do you consent to this interview today? CP: I do consent. KL: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable format? CP: Yes. KL: Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats including films, articles, websites, presentations, and other formats? CP: Yes. KL: Do you understand that you'll have thirty days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview, identify any parts you would like to delete and/or withdraw your interview for this project? CP: I understand that. KL: Okay and this project has been approved by Muhlenberg College's Institutional Review Board and you may contact Dr. Erika Iyengar with any questions and if you want her email address I'm happy to give it to you. CP: Okay. KL: All right, so you are where are you currently located, your zip code? CP: Let me think, 18104. KL: This is a really general starting question and you can take it wherever. How has the Covid-19 pandemic affected your life and this could be your work life, personal life, social life, sex life, anything. CP: First off, I graduated college in Washington, D.C. and then I moved back to Pennsylvania to live with my grandmother. I am a registered nurse, so I started nursing this year, she also finished nursing. She retired, she's been a nurse for 60 years, so we kind of helped each other transition into and out of the profession. So I was born here but now I've moved back. My life has changed because my grandmother, being an eighty-two-year-old woman she's immunocompromised and I still work at the hospital. So I have to completely change my habits of what happens when I come home from work where I keep dirty clothes goes right into the washer, our water bill has gone up. Different cleaning or rather different ways of cleaning my shoes, so I've had to kind of think outside the box in order to still do my job and keep her safe as well. KL: So you work at the hospital? CP: I work at Lehigh Valley Health Network yes and obviously Covid-19 has affected my work life drastically. My unit is actually a step down cardiac unit, we handle people who are going for pacemakers and cardiac procedures of the like. And most of our people are elective surgeries, people don't usually come to the hospital and end up on our unit unless it's planned. And since Covid was like raging people weren't doing these elective surgeries, people weren't choosing to come into the hospital I mean as they shouldn't, it was good because we could keep people who were like really really sick in the ICU and other patients who really didn't need intensive care could come to our unit. So we turned into like a generalized what you would say a medical surgical unit. So I got patients that I really had no previous training on it was a great learning experience but it was also very nerve wracking because when you came into work every day you had no idea what you were going to get. KL: So you graduated this year? CP: May 20. KL: Were you still in school when this started and then got the job or was it kind -- I don't know how that works because now I'm fascinated, now it's like I'm just asking you this for me. CP: That's fine, absolutely, my hospital does this program for nursing students where you can be something called a technical partner sometimes known as nurse aides, throughout nursing school so that you maintain a job and then you can be an internal hire. So I already had the job upon graduating, I had already signed a contract, I had signed a two year bonus for ten thousand dollars all they said you just have to graduate. You've got the job all you've got to do is pass your boards which was a huge lifesaver for me because I know a large portion of my classmates while they were in senior year of nursing school studying for tests, studying for their degree were like well now I've got to find a job, it was a huge help for me. So I was already on that unit and when I had graduated May 2019 Covid obviously hadn't happened yet. When I started actually my orientation process in July 2019 we didn't, we were not affected by Covid yet, so I was completely on my own like a full functioning nurse off of orientation, had my degree when Covid happened. So they had to let us go and to be on our own and to like practice fully functioning by ourselves without someone like directly observing us when Covid started really ramping up. So it was a huge challenge I just (break in audio) people who are in school this year so drastically affected because their second semester, their clinicals were probably all cancelled. I know a lot of people couldn't get their nursing degree because the testing centers were closed so everything's been pushed back. So once again there's a nursing shortage. What's next. KL: Oh my gosh. So yeah amazing. So you've gotten to, you had like that experience of doing what you want to do let's say and then suddenly all new things to learn. That's a good start to your career. CP: Yeah, I feel like I had just kind of gotten secure like I can take care of patients now and then the rug was pulled out from under me so to speak. KL: So you have obviously still been working showering five hundred times. CP: I'm grateful, because people their life turned upside down, they don't know how they're going to pay bills. I mean I'm just out of college because I'm living with my grandmother I'm already done with my student loans, I bought my first car, huge like milestones that I would not have been able to complete had I not been living with my grandmother, had I not kept an essential job and had I not planned ahead of time and had the foresight to like really attack bills while I could. KL: Yeah, so you've been protecting your grandmother but has she also been -- I mean she's obviously a good person that you can bounce your whole day off of and I bet she is just I was going to say loving everything you have to say to her, but I don't know if that's the right word. CP: Yeah because it's funny because, you know, we're two generations apart and in the nursing or any medical field that's huge I mean every five years they come out with new studies let alone sixty years. I come home and I talk about a situation she's like, "When I was your age what we used to do." And it's just really funny to hear the differences and there are nurses on my unit that are kind of in between our stages. So I'll go to them and I'll be like do you ever remember doing this, this or this were you around during the days where on night shift you did this, this, or that. It's very interesting and it's a great talking point. KL: I mean you've obviously been like very aware of protecting her. CP: Yes. It's a complicated life but it's made it interesting and I accept the challenge, I appreciate it. KL: So I don't know do you, what else? CP: What else? KL: I was going to say because you're working, and you know so like your social life are you like maintaining friendships, I don't know, video friending? CP: When you're in nursing school you don't really have a social life, the on running joke it's like choose three eating, sleeping, social life, and good grades. You can't have it all. So usually nine times out of ten your social life is what is nonexistent and it's really unfortunate because when I was in college you know it's you're focused, I had the nursing major degree, I actually have a Spanish for Healthcare certificate which is almost a minor, I think I was like one class short of it actually being a minor. So I was really focused on school, I had jobs, I was on the varsity soccer team and I was on club rugby, I had a lot going on. So really my school and my sports were my social life, I didn't really have one. So after graduation I was like wow I can actually hang out with my friends, we can go places, we can do things, and then I had about five months of that and then Covid hit and now we're back to I don't have a social life because there's nothing open anymore. But I am video chatting, I am calling, texting, obviously you hang out with people at work while you're at work but it's entirely (break in audio) so I'm looking forward to when things open up again and you can go places like go to a park and just be outside and people watch and go to a restaurant, meet up with friends, you know that kind of thing. I actually miss -- from D.C., I miss having the ability to just bar hop. [Near here?] I lived on the same block as three different bars so if you wanted to go out and some place got boring you could walk down the street. If you needed to go somewhere that was far away you could just call an Uber or a Lyft, much less or I should say there are not as many people who drive for those programs around here. So, like the one day I pulled up Uber or Lyft just to see if there was anyone even around and I don't think Uber had anyone and I think Lyft had one person. I'm kind of in culture shock in that aspect but I'm getting through it. KL: Yeah that's always interesting. I had a question and now I don't remember it. Oh so you're active in sports are you trying to get outside now, do you -- I know those are like the mental things I think that during this time are probably like super helpful. CP: Yes, I actually for the first time since I was like four years old decided to not be on a team sport after college, I am working out like by myself. I was going to the gym but obviously that's kind of changed now, I'm lucky enough to have a huge driveway so I actually work out outside in the driveway, I can go for a run, there's lots of trails around here. I'm enjoying the fact that I can choose when and what I want to do when I work out which isn't the case when you have any kind of sports team usually. And I'm also enjoying the fact that I'm just like you know what I have a lot of errands to run, I can't work out today, like no required practice and I believe it or not am really enjoying that and I don't know maybe I could go back to like an adult recreational league in the future but as far as now is concerned I'm really enjoying me time because for a long time, I mean sports, school, it wasn't me it was what I was doing, so I think what Covid taught me to be honest was just be which I've enjoyed because obviously my work life is very busy, so when I get home it's nice to just be. And I've also been able to spend more time than I thought with my girlfriend. She actually moved to Virginia after college but then Covid hit and her job became remote, so she actually moved back to PA to live with her parents which is a like an hour or so from me, so on times when I have like a few days off or long weekends I go there or she comes here. So able to spend a lot more time with her than I would have been, had this pandemic not happened, so you know. KL: That's good I'm glad it worked out. Like a lot of people have been saying that you know, I mean of course you know it's taught people to really just slow down and kind of take care of themselves or realize how taking care of themselves, like what that means to them. CP: Most definitely. KL: So that's good. What other positive things have come out of it, do you have any like fun hobbies or no you're just? CP: Positive, my grandmother has a pretty large property and she has a large house for being here by herself for so long. She bought a house that would be able to comfortably live her, her son's family and my mother's family, so she has enough room for eight people in this house. So it's a very large house, obviously many beds, many bathrooms, multiple stories, and she has the yard to support it. So I've been really trying to help her clean the house, get rid of extra stuff she doesn't need, work on the yard, it's a lot of upkeep. I realized that in the process I don't want a big yard when I grow up or a big house, it's a lot of work and I'm really -- you know like to each his own, I'm proud of people for doing that if that's what they want but like I don't need that and that's okay. KL: Yeah, I hear you there. CP: I feel like when I was a kid my mom was like I just cleaned the floor oh my god how did it happen I'm like well yeah it happened. But now I'm the person saying oh my god I just cleaned the floor how did that happen. KL: I mean I get that, being home all the time now I have two children and it's like just I'm like working and then I walk to do whatever, I get water and I'm like where are there dishes, it's never ending all the things. But it's also been nice to just be like I'm working and now it's ten o'clock in the morning let's go for a walk and then I'll get back to work afterwards, like there's something about this you know like yeah. CP: I wonder how life is going to be like in the future after all this kind of calms down, I think it's made a lot of business owners and a lot of people realize what jobs aren't really needed per se. And I don't want to say needed for lack of a better term but there are a lot of people that I feel like their staffing is going to drop, because they realize that they can function without it. I feel like a lot of businesses have found a way around it. Like I know for example there are a lot of places who are suddenly creating outdoor seating when they never had it before, because people are requesting outdoor seating they're not going to eat inside, to each his own. But it's very interesting because people are like throwing up tents and then buying extra tables and they're like oh we have ten tables outside now. I don't know, I kind of hope they keep that stuff. KL: So now has your unit gone back? CP: Yes, we have, we are at full functioning capacity. They need to think about it if people who were intending to come into the hospital for all these things everybody's coming in all of a sudden and everybody's coming in worse because everybody delayed it. So, length of stays are longer, the amount of people getting treated raises exponentially. It's also forcing people out sooner because they don't want people to stay into the hospital too long. Like they're goal is to get up and walk the same day, that night of as opposed to just rest. And I know you know a couple of generations back you would have same day surgeries that people come in for in the morning and they leave that afternoon people would be in the hospital an entire day before, have the surgery and then be in the hospital an entire day after. We've drastically changed things. KL: Yes, that's interesting, I mean do you think that people probably do better at home or they're more comfortable at home or it depends on what they have? CP: It depends on their whole (break in audio) take that into consideration, we have special nurses to do case management for that. But I mean if they have a support system they'll probably thrive better in the hospital or at home than at the hospital, there's less noise for sure, more rest ability, better healing capabilities, yes. KL: I don't know, anything else, I'm trying to look at my list of subjects. CP: I can't think of anything off the top of my head. What are your other questions, it might trigger something? KL: Well some of our categories are about social life and personal pursuits which gardening is now your new. And then mental and physical health. CP: Yes, on that note my therapist was like, who I've been seeing for years, is like maybe you should start journaling and I'm really not the kind of person that opens up a journal at the end of the day and says today I did this, I'm just not that kind of person, I know it works for a lot of people, it's just like my job is so busy like I don't want to think about it when I get home. Like I leave it at work for a reason. So I bought these books and it's like three thousand questions about me, three thousand would you rather and I fill those out and that's my version of journaling, because it asks you questions that you would not think about. Some of them are like surface value that you just know the answer right off the top of your head, and others you really have to think about. And she like we go off of those deep questions and it's like what made you think today kind of thing. That's my form of like that keeps me sane, that keeps me grounded. KL: I purposely did not look at your stuff that you filled out on the form so I wouldn't be asking you those things that you wrote about. I feel like you know when you talked about well living with someone who you have to be careful with health wise I know someone who's a doctor and yeah I mean she just like showers at work, puts real clothes on, goes home, showers when she gets home, changes, you know there's just like a process that's a new process really that you wouldn't have done before. CP: I've also had to invest in other gear like other uniforms because they're getting used so heavily, I've bought other like scrub caps, yeah, I've gone through a lot of stuff. And my floor they try to keep completely free of anyone who has the virus, they send people to my floor who are immunocompromised, so my floor is like relatively safe unless I get somewhere else. So I bring everything home, we have a shower on the first floor, I hop right in the shower, I throw my uniform right in the washer and she stays upstairs the entire time period and I'm just like hey I'm out of the shower now, the stuff's in the washer, you can come down we can have dinner. KL: I feel like, yeah there's like a lot of mental pressure on, you know, someone like you who's just like in a hospital all the time. To just worry about everyone else around you. CP: Yes, you try to limit your interactions with people too especially when you're just coming home from work, like if I have to get gas, I try to use the pump farthest away from people. If I have to go shopping, I like to try to give people an extra wide berth, but you know I try not to go shopping or get gas on days that I had just worked in the hospital. I do what I can because I'd want people to do that for me as well. KL: I went to a doctor recently, a dermatologist and you know I had to take my mask off and I thought oh my gosh it was like my first time really doing anything and then I'm like of course like for anything that she needs to see I've got to take my mask off. And you know she was saying too that not that she ever really stopped working but because nothing was emergency unless it was, she would come in. And she said at first it was just like even though she'd see a few patients during the day, and it wasn't a lot of work and she was just looking at people's faces and then she'd go home and she said she would be totally done, like mentally done just from the fact that people were taking their masks off in front of her. You know how quicKLy that mental -- that's changed for just being like normal being close to people and suddenly that's like something scary, that just takes your energy. CP: It does, it really does. It's definitely taxing. KL: I mean I thought about her saying that and I was like yeah and she is afraid to see her parents and like they live in Pittsburgh and because she'd have to do like a two week quarantine and then stay with them you know it would just be like this extended time of vacation that she can't afford to take. Or, you know, is willing to do that or just be around them because they're immunocompromised and yeah like the mental energy, for like just the day to day everything and then to add that, you know. CP: I think the terrible or most stressful I guess you could say is god forbid something were to happen who you interacted with you'd be like was that my fault. And obviously you're never going to know who gave who, like if you had it, people go round they have no symptoms. Like you know what I'm saying, I think that right there is what is the most detrimental to people's mental health because I mean like I wear the mask because whoever I'm encountering might be immunocompromised. I feel confident that I'm young enough, I'm healthy enough, I don't have any comorbidities should I get it I would probably have like a fever, an upset tummy and body aches for like a day, think it's like a 24-hour bug and be fine. Someone else might literally die from it, so that's when come up to me because they see me as like they know I'm a nurse and they're like so what about these masks, do you believe they work, blah blah blah, and I tell them straight up front I'm like I'm wearing my mask for your benefit. I'm wearing my mask not because I think I'm going to get sick and I'm afraid of me getting sick, but because if I have it or I get it and I pass it to you you might die. And that really makes it very simple and makes it very clear for people. And that might seem very abrupt and very like grim but honestly that's what people understand when it's stressful and it's all complicated and that's the easiest way for me to explain it to people. KL: Would you have worn a mask beforehand like in your unit normally on a regular just like checking people, no? CP: Only if they had some form of virus, illness, that required something called droplet precautions. So if they had the flu we would go in with a mask and goggles and that's our droplet precautions. If they were actively coughing we would ask if they would be willing to wear a mask when we came into the room or if they're doing a breathing treatment during it we would actually have to gown up and we'd put on scrubs and we'd put on bootees as well as the mask and the goggles and then we'd go in the room. And you know everyone that has a cough, everyone that has a breathing treatment now we're treating as if they might have Covid even if they've tested negative because they might have picked it up in the interim. It's stressful, it obviously costs a lot of money and time and energy and supplies. But I mean for the mere fact that I'm going in this room, that room, all day long I'm going to do it because like I said if I get it it probably won't be as detrimental but other people in the hospital they are, I mean obviously they're there because they're sick, they're not choosing to be there because it's fun. Then the people who have to wear the N95s that would be normally people who wear N95s or would require it would be in special rooms called negative pressure rooms. And you would hardly ever need to actually use it for that intended purpose for things like tuberculosis. Like you don't see it very often anymore and the fact that they ran out of negative pressure rooms like the first day that we went into red phase was kind of mind boggling to me because it was almost like you always learned about it but you never actually saw it happen. And now we have to wear those any time someone's having a breathing treatment because they just might have it. KL: So are you at the big hospital, you're at Cedar Crest? CP: Yes. KL: Now I'm totally asking you, are you tired talking about this yet. Do they have Covid patients? I mean how is that for you every day go into work, I mean everything's isolated, but do you get daily briefings of what's going on? CP: So when Covid originally started and all the procedural units that were like ours but couldn't be customized into a medical surgical like a generalized floor a lot of their staff was either furloughed or floated, and they had staff posted at every entrance to the hospital scanning temperatures for every staff member and every visitor. Now when we opened things up again and we opened those units they are now only scanning visitors because they don't want as many staff members sitting at those desks, they want to open up the units again. So now we get a text message every morning that says this is your health screen, have you been in contact with anyone, do you think you have it, do you have any of these symptoms, are you feeling any different? If the answer is no to all these questions, you're cleared for work today and we do that every single day that we go into work. And yeah, it's changed things. KL: I feel like this is good for you at the beginning of your career -- maybe I'm making this up but it's like such an experience that you've probably again only talked about in classes and then you just get to experience it. CP: There are people in the nursing profession for like I said 60 years and they have never experienced anything like this. And I was right on the end, the tail end of normalcy, so I've seen both worlds and like I said there are nurses who have been in this profession for years and they're like we're all on the same level now there's no seniority with this. One has no practice with all of this, it's just everybody's trying to help each other survive. KL: Yeah and I wonder like moving forward how much of this is just going to inform everything about your career moving forward or you know change how all this works totally. CP: I am sure it will because in the future when they're in classes or they're in textbooks when they're rewriting stuff they're going to talk about the generation that dealt with the pandemic, or they're going to talk about the new nurses that started right before, during, right after, like a hundred percent. Like there's going to be an era almost as if it were like talking about a generation like Millennial or Gen Z but there's going to be something, there's going to be an era of nursing pre-pandemic, like an era of beginning of nursing like kind of when it started getting scientific, pre pandemic, post pandemic, there's going a hundred percent. Not necessarily before to really people think it was kind of like I was part of the generation that did bed baths with a washcloth and a basin and I used a washcloth. Like those are the two defining lines. But most definitely there's going to be so when did you start nursing before or after, yeah. KL: I know so you know this project it's doing forty years of public health with the interviews, so it's from like AIDS and HIV to Covid-19, so we have I think ten of these interviews that are with people who you know talking about AIDS and the AIDS epidemic and so like the comparisons have been interesting. But I mean you know listening to some people saying how you know people didn't want to take care of people that had AIDS in the beginning, you know like all this stuff and having to suit up when going into their brother in a hospital room and like the nurses not wanting to take care of them so the family had to do it, you know, and it's interesting to see that comparison or just yeah all of this you know. CP: Yes, and you make a valid point like when we learned about the AIDS crisis that happened and the nursing care that was provided or even in some cases not provided it's I'd like to think very different from how we're handling it today for the better. But it's just interesting because that's the only thing that really pops up in comparison, and I just think that the world kind of grew up a little bit in-between, or at least we all tried to. KL: What a sad conversation, anything fun you want to talk about? CP: I mean I don't know it is what it is, this is my life now. That's another thing I think nursing really like a lot of the people if you ever have nursing friends or colleagues that were nurses their view of life and their sense of humor are vastly different from common Joe just because I mean at the end of the day or night when we give a report and we're like all of our patients are alive, like that's great. Like that's our status quo as opposed to yeah, I got all these assignments done, or I graded all the paperwork. We are just very, we're trained differently, our mind works differently. Things don't really shock us [38:00] to an extent like when you talk about some person went into the hospital for something our immediate brain goes to well what did they do to -- what happened to cause that rather than oh my gosh that's crazy, because we're just used to it. KL: Like the sad things but also like so much that comes out of it you know like helping people and being with people and you know I would think like those relationships. I'm like an archivist, right, I just spend a lot of time in people's papers or now with the LGBT archives I'm lucky enough to meet people who I've already looked at their papers and then either I get to meet them in person or watch an oral history. And yes, you know, I have liked never cried from like both from sadness and like joy and happiness about any archives of like ever until these. It's like that description of yes there's just you know life right life stories it's like joyful and terrible and it's like everything. CP: I think that Covid a lot of people in the LGBTQ community have found each other over long distances, because they've been forced to because you weren't able to see your normal web of people in person. You were forced to use a lot more social media or long distance things which almost eliminated the distance. Like now I talk to people that I wouldn't normally talk to because it's normal for me to text people five minutes away and an hour away or lives in the next country. Like everything is digital now which isn't necessarily good or bad it's just it's forced people in the community to find others in the community through technology. Now I know for me who personally doesn't like human interaction to an extent, I like my time period to have me and be alone, I'm also when I'm comfortable very extroverted. But it allows people to interact more comfortably I think so I think people have found support in people that they never would have met or encountered prior to this because they have nothing else. They can't find people any other way so now that they're choosing to use electronic platforms, digital platforms they are finding so many more people. KL: Yes, I totally agree with that, even you know for me and seems like my work life. I've totally contacted people that I never would have seen, you know, around campus or that I've said hi to but just been like oh my gosh I'm going to email you let's talk. CP: Yes, it's interesting. KL: All right so we're coming to the end so if there's anything else that you think that you forgot to say, or you want to talk about? CP: I'm trying to think. KL: I asked you so many medical questions. CP: I am looking forward to going to more events with people like from the community. Like I miss, like D.C. there's so many LGBTQ friendly bars or dance floors, clubs, anything, you name it. I miss that and I do go to like Pride whenever it's available but it's nice that we have been able to like enjoy ourselves and have pride in ourselves without the big fanfare and the big parade. Which you know everybody loves a good parade but I'm looking forward to really ,really is relish the right word, like really really enjoying it when it comes back. Not necessarily taking it for granted because I think a lot of people did for a long time and I was really only coming into like actually fully enjoying it and getting to know my place in the community and what I understood. And I really didn't have a chance to be me at all these different functions until after college and obviously the five-month period before the pandemic hit. So I'm looking forward to it when everything calms down and it's safe for everyone again just because I will be so much more grateful for it, because I recognize that we could not, that there was a time where we couldn't have had it, or there was a time where I wish that we had it and we couldn't because I missed it because of this or that. That's it. KL: Great, I love it. All right well thank you so much for your time to do this, it's been great, totally fun. All right I'll stop recording and then I'll say goodbye to you in a normal way. END OF VIDEO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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00:44:33
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Christina Peyroux, July 29, 2020
Description
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Christina Peyroux discusses her experiences during the COVID-19 pandemic including how it has effected her job in nursing and living with her grandmother, a retired nurse.
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PH40_33
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
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2020-07-29
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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https://lgbt.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/698e17af4ed4f3049ed078b183de6ff1.png
c6386d3a56d5aafff0f82c3ebf790f93
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
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In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Liz Bradbury
Interviewee
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Cynthia Rodriguez
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_31a.xml
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5.4 July 20, 2020 Cynthia Rodriguez, July 20, 2020 (Part 1) PH40_31a 01:12:29 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Cynthia Rodriguez Liz Bradbury video/mpeg RodriguezCynthia_2020072020_video.mp4 1.0:|23(8)|44(7)|71(8)|106(11)|141(16)|172(14)|199(2)|222(12)|245(2)|266(15)|291(7)|322(12)|363(4)|386(4)|409(15)|432(12)|451(6)|476(5)|501(17)|528(4)|547(14)|572(10)|593(5)|612(10)|633(15)|654(5)|675(2)|706(5)|731(3)|752(4)|783(6)|800(8)|821(5)|844(3)|863(9)|902(5)|925(4)|948(5)|967(10)|990(15)|1013(13)|1040(12)|1063(10)|1086(11)|1105(14)|1130(11)|1153(12)|1174(7)|1201(13)|1224(10)|1247(13)|1270(14)|1303(7)|1322(6)|1349(11)|1380(16)|1405(12)|1426(14)|1455(8)|1474(12)|1507(7)|1540(11)|1567(5)|1590(12)|1621(11)|1640(5)|1661(9)|1684(16)|1703(4)|1730(3)|1749(11)|1784(13)|1815(5) 0 https://youtu.be/NTfNbI4wEBk YouTube video 0 Interview Introduction CYNTHIA RODRIGUEZ: Okay. 
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 ; LIZ BRADBURY: I have this little backup recording where I’ve got the voice recording too just in case the thing doesn’t work or record. And I’m going to read you this, this thing. So with this project the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of -- oh, wait, I didn’t do some stuff. I’ve got to pin you, I forgot to do that, and I forgot to turn off my phone. I’ll start again. Pin video and I got the audio on. Okay. And I just want to be sure my phone is off. (clears throat) I’m sorry. 0 243 Current living/work/school situation LB: Okay. These are just general things. You can talk about anything you want, but just to check in, let’s start with some basic questions and ask who’s in your house with you? 
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 ; CR: My mom -- 
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 ; LB: So you’re -- 
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 ; CR: -- my mum.
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 ; LB: Okay, so that’s cool. You’re both there all the time? Are you working?
 ; 0 368 Missing summer classes because of upcoming surgery LB: So what’s it like being a student? And now, you’re doing everything online, I would assume. Are you taking classes in the summer?
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 ; CR: I did not have to take any classes this summer because originally, I was supposed to get surgery on my left foot, which did not happen because of COVID because they had cut out elective surgeries when the pandemic started. 0 438 Thoughts on Cedar Crest College opening back up/taking classes during the pandemic LB: Do you think that Cedar Crest will open for students, or is it all going to be online? 
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 ; CR: So far, what we’ve heard, but of course, things can change because they’ve been changing so quickly like all the time depending on how it’s going with the pandemic. As of right now, we are supposed to get what they’re calling a hybrid now experience in the fall, which honestly, I’m used to it anyway because I usually pick at least one online class per semester, so that’s a normal thing for me. 0 756 How the pandemic has changed school life/artistic work CR: They really give you opportunities there to even perform at the school. We had, prior to all this going down, like a student showcase every month that we would perform, show what we learned, so I was already performing with my guitar. The theater club held this big show at the end of the semester in our big main theater. 0 945 Keeping mom healthy during pandemic/keeping outings minimal LB: So have you been pretty much staying in, or what have you been doing? 
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 ; CR: Well, definitely like everybody else during quarantine, we stayed put here. We don’t really take any chances. I’m very protective of my mom. Even after green light or not, I don’t care about all that. 0 1075 Receiving government aid LB: Yeah, have you gotten additional money from the government or as you --? 
 ; CR: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s helped a little bit and the fact that we don’t have a mortgage anymore because we’ve had this house forever. All those little things helped a lot. 
 ; 0 1098 Communicating during the pandemic/Keeping busy during the pandemic/Coping with personal difficulties LB: So have you been communicating with a lot of people on media like this or by phone or texting or -- more than you would normally do compared to...? I would guess that you’re very involved with MCC, wouldn’t you say that? 
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 ; CR: Oh, yeah, yeah. But I’ve kept very, very busy. We’ve known each other for a while. You know I keep very busy with a lot of activities and I stay... From the beginning of this pandemic, I made a decision to keep some kind of structure in my life like a schedule because it’s so easy to fall into this rut. 0 1628 Friend who had to leave Italy during pandemic/Knowing people who have contracted Covid-19 LB: Let me ask you something. Do you know anybody that’s had the -- have -- has had the coronavirus or anybody that like [who got that?]?
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 ; CR: Actually, yes, especially in the beginning because I think a lot of people did not... They weren’t taking it seriously, I don’t think, you know? And so I think people were a lot more careless in the beginning because they just didn’t know before everyone’s wearing masks and I don’t think... 0 2165 Protecting self and family from catching Covid-19 CR: I feel like it’s just too new for us to really nail anything down, to really know about it. So with all that, that’s all I need. I just protect myself across the board. I don’t care what’s like -- unless they really learn about it, figure it out, get a vaccine, whatever, I feel we’re going to take these precautions the rest of the year until next year. 0 2330 Participating in the Black Lives Matter movement CR: And speaking of that, the other thing that I got involved with unfortunately, not that I was trying to do that now during COVID, I’ve been part of the Black Lives Matter movement the whole time it’s been around, for seven years now, I think, ish. And since like Trayvon Martin times, been involved with that, been using actually the same signs that I made a long time ago at my old studio, and I wasn’t going to do that. 0 2492 Thoughts on Dr. Rachel Levine/Governor Tom Wolf's handling of the pandemic LB: What do you think about...? And then one of the things we have here in the state of Pennsylvania is that we get to see Dr. Rachel Levine on the news, and she’s the secretary of health. Have you had a chance to see her? She’s transgender, and she is speaking about -- I mean, we really have pretty good leadership in the state of Pennsylvania. Has that affected you, or have you had a chance to see that? 
 ; 0 2668 Frustrations over state opening too soon/People not wanting to take Covid precautions CR: I really wish we had done that longer honestly. I wish we’d have done... I’m just being honest about that. I feel like we opened too soon. I think we went the whole business as usual too soon, and now, we’re seeing a spike. It’s totally going to affect the -- all school for everybody across the board and for the whole country. 0 2958 Concerns over children returning to school during pandemic/for parents during pandemic/caretakers and healthcare workers CR: That’s a big concern for me for people when kids go back to school. I think that’s my biggest concern is kids coming -- basically coming back home and bringing this stuff -- even if they’re not sick, if they don't have symptoms coming home and infecting their parents, grandparents. That’s a big concern of mine. 0 3132 Working at the Allentown Women's Center and concerns for former colleagues CR: I used to work at Allentown Women’s Center for six years, all my best friends work there. Oh, that’s been like a nightmare just worrying about them, and every time I talk to them, not being able to be close to them any time soon, like, “You guys, really be careful,” and it’s -- 
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 ; LB: Are they open? 
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 ; CR: -- and praying for them every day. Hmm?
 ; 0 3308 Uncertainty over how the pandemic will pan out LB: We’re still in the beginning of it too. 
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 ; CR: Huh? 
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 ; LB: We’re just at the beginning of it too. We don’t even know what’s going to happen. I mean if people are looking at this video of you talking thirty years from now, they know what happened. 0 3377 Source of hope during pandemic LB: What’s giving you hope? I mean, what’s the best thing that’s happened out of this, or what’s really giving you hope, or generally, what gives you hope? 
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 ; CR: I think the biggest thing that’s kept me together like mentally, emotionally, everything is probably I’m really grateful for my spirituality honestly. 0 3434 Importance of staying connected digitally/having support systems CR: I think is really important for people to have that support system and a Zoom account (laughs) to really connect with people because it is -- I feel bad for anyone that doesn’t have that connection via... Like if they don’t have good internet or a laptop or whatever, I really feel for them because that’s like the lifeline for most people to the outside world. 0 3521 Using Tinder during the pandemic/Forming a romantic relationship during the pandemic LB: Are you using any dating apps or any queer dating apps or anything? 
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 ; CR: (laughs) Yeah, Tinder is probably not the best --
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 ; LB: (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) 
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 ; CR: (laughs) Yeah. Yeah, I feel like you have to be really, really careful. Shoot, I haven’t done like online dating app [00:59:00] or anything for years. 0 3653 Heightened feelings of loneliness during the pandemic CR: If somebody wasn’t partnered before this went down, this is like -- then it’s been -- I know it’s been tough for people. I got lucky, but I know like that’s -- it is what it is though. Huh?
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 ; LB: I think people who are living alone, completely alone, it’s very, very hard for them. 
 ; 0 3756 Thoughts for the future LB: So we’re pretty much at the end of this. I wanted to just ask you in the future, we hope that somebody -- well, I think people will look at these. These are very interesting artifacts because comparing this to the flu that happened a hundred years ago, a hundred and two years ago, the flu epidemic of 1918, they didn’t have social media then. 0 4154 Wanting to get in contact with old friends from Spain LB: You spent a lot of time in Europe or you were in Europe last year for three and a half months, and I’m sure you have friends in other countries too that -- have you been communicating with those people in other countries about what that -- their experiences were, or was it mostly students that were from here that you were around? 0 4263 Conclusion LB: Yeah. Well, this has been a great interview. I really, really appreciate you taking your time to do this with me today, and -- 
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 ; CR: Thank you. 
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 ; LB: -- I appreciate it very much. 0 MovingImage Cynthia Rodriguez talks about how the current COVID-19 pandemic is affecting her, her friends and family, her experience as a full time student and her work as an artist and musician. She also talks about prayer and meditation and civil rights activism including Black Lives Matter. Cynthia Rodriguez Part 1 2020-07-20 CYNTHIA RODRIGUEZ: Okay. LIZ BRADBURY: I have this little backup recording where I've got the voice recording too just in case the thing doesn't work or record. And I'm going to read you this, this thing. So with this project the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of -- oh, wait, I didn't do some stuff. I've got to pin you, I forgot to do that, and I forgot to turn off my phone. I'll start again. Pin video and I got the audio on. Okay. And I just want to be sure my phone is off. (clears throat) I'm sorry. CR: Make sure I don't get interrupted. (speaking Spanish) Sorry. LB: (Spanish), right? CR: Yeah, yeah. LB: Okay, I'll start again. With this project, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury, and I'm here with Cynthia Rodriguez to talk to her about her experiences in the Lehigh Valley community during this time of the COVID-19 epidemic as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive. We're meeting on Zoom on July 20th, 2020. So thank you so much, Cynthia, for being willing to speak with us today. To start, can you please state your full name and spell it for me please? CR: Sure. It's Cynthia, C-Y-N-T-H-I-A, Rodriguez, R-O-D-R-I-G-U-E-Z. LB: Okay. And will you please share your birthdate? CR: Sure, it's 04/29/71. I am forty-nine years old. LB: Okay, and what town are you in? CR: I'm in Allentown, Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania. LB: Great. This is the consent portion. So do you consent to this interview today? CR: Yes, ma'am. LB: Okay. Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable formats? CR: Yes. LB: Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats including films, articles, websites, presentations, and other things we may not even understand now because it'll be -- CR: Yeah. LB: -- in the future? Great. Do you understand that you'll have 30 days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview and identify parts you'd like to delete and or withdraw from the project? You can withdraw the whole thing if you --? CR: Yes. LB: So what is your zip code? CR: It is 18109. LB: Okay, and you just stated your age. You said you're forty-nine. CR: Yes. LB: And how do you identify within the LGBT community? So you could say anything about how you identify within the community. CR: I would identify myself as a soft butch lesbian. LB: Okay. And here are some things to talk about, and we can talk about all sorts of different -- and would you say that you're cisgender? CR: Yes. LB: Okay. These are just general things. You can talk about anything you want, but just to check in, let's start with some basic questions and ask who's in your house with you? CR: My mom -- LB: So you're -- CR: -- my mum. LB: Okay, so that's cool. You're both there all the time? Are you working? CR: Yeah, I work part time. I've been mostly working part time since I went back to school as a full-time student. LB: Uh-huh. So what are you doing? CR: I clean part time. I was working at Stonewall for -- as a security for a few years, and that ended this year especially with everything closing. LB: Yeah. So -- LB: And I'm a full-time student. CR: Oh, so you're still a full-time student? LB: Yes, I am right now. I graduated from LCCC with an associate's in general studies, and now I've been -- I'm in Cedar Crest College. I am an art therapy major, and, God willing, I'll be graduating in the spring and going into their master's program in the fall. CR: A master's in Cedar Crest? LB: Yes. CR: Oh, cool. LB: And -- CR: Yeah, I'm planning to do it all the way. I'm going to get -- go for my doctorate after that, hopefully at Drexel in art therapy. LB: Uh-huh. So your master's will be in art therapy too? CR: Yeah, I'm getting a bachelor's in art therapy at Cedar Crest in the spring, then from there immediately, I'll be going into their master's program for art therapy in the fall, so I can get my license to practice. And I plan on continuing my education for art therapy hopefully at Drexel because there are very few places in the northeast that do that, that offer that program for art therapists, so yeah. So my ultimate goal is to have my own practice and hopefully come back to Cedar Crest as a professor. LB: Oh, cool, that'd be neat. Yeah. So what's it like being a student? And now, you're doing everything online, I would assume. Are you taking classes in the summer? CR: I did not have to take any classes this summer because originally, I was supposed to get surgery on my left foot, which did not happen because of COVID because they had cut out elective surgeries when the pandemic started. And by the time they allowed it, it was too late for me to do that since class is starting soon, and there's a long recovery time for the type of surgery I'm getting. It's about a few months of recovery time at least because it's the Achilles tendon. LB: Oh, God, yeah. CR: Yeah, I had it done on my right foot when I had a bone here -- a bone spur removed. I was laid up all summer. That was five years ago, and they said that I would eventually have to get it on my left foot, which that would have been this year because I can only do that during the summer because of school. So since that didn't happen, it's been postponed till next summer after graduation. LB: Do you think that Cedar Crest will open for students, or is it all going to be online? CR: So far, what we've heard, but of course, things can change because they've been changing so quickly like all the time depending on how it's going with the pandemic. As of right now, we are supposed to get what they're calling a hybrid now experience in the fall, which honestly, I'm used to it anyway because I usually pick at least one online class per semester, so that's a normal thing for me. However, if things change, students may have to switch some classes because it's some things -- I don't know how they're going to navigate that as far as classes that we really need to do live, hands-on especially being like an art/psych major, which is basically what an art therapy major is. I can see maybe one, possibly two classes that I can do online. The rest, I don't know because it's -- I'm supposed to take printing, print shop this fall, so I don't know how that's going to work. With the ceramics class, our professor got creative thankfully. He basically sent us home with a bunch of clay and told us to make stuff, and (laughs) he was much more lenient. He was like, "You can be abstract." I'm thinking of course, you know, and we would like video and all kinds of stuff. They do the best they can. We did that for art therapy and -- but for... We'll see. And then for music, I minor in music, it depends on the instructors, which are basically like independent contractors there anyway, that you meet one-on-one. I take an instrument every semester. I have learned guitar, piano there, and this semester, I'm supposed to do drums. I don't know how that's going to work. I did plan on getting my own set anyway, so I don't know. We have to get creative. Maybe they can teach me while I have my drum set in front of the laptop. I have no idea. It's going to be a lot of fun trying to figure it out. Everyone jokes that I'm trying to become my -- a one -- because I sing too, my own one-woman band, so... I love music, and I love having that opportunity at Cedar Crest to learn all these instruments. After this semester for my last undergrad semester, I was planning to learn sax. So if I'm done there, I'll have like four instruments at least under my belt, but -- so things like that. Depending on how they figure that out, I may have to switch classes last minute. Honestly, I'm really trying to stay flexible mentally to be ready for anything and just go with the flow. Because these days, I feel if you don't have that mentality, you can just really go nuts. And I know that that may not vibe with the people that are not too good with change and are so accustomed to like a set schedule and so structured. But you really can't be like that these days. You know, this pandemic I realized, well, you kind of have to go with the flow or you're going to really stress yourself out. LB: Yeah. Do you have a saxophone? CR: No, but I would totally be getting one (laughs) if it all works out well for the spring. Amazon is your best friend during quarantine. LB: (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) in a way, yeah. I was going to say I have a C saxophone, which is a -- CR: Nice. LB: -- which I will be happy to give you for as long as you want. CR: No way, wow. LB: I haven't used it in a long time. I was studying clarinet, and one of the things I found -- and I don't want to be discouraging you -- but if you've never played the saxophone or clarinet before, it's hard to learn it as an adult. Like piano and guitar is pretty -- and -- but like Trish and I, she wanted to learn violin and I wanted to learn clarinet actually, they just -- it's very hard to learn those as adults. You can pick up piano great but -- [boy?]. But anyway, so I have a C saxophone with a mouthpiece and everything. CR: Oh, great. LB: That's a marching band saxophone. So it's not really the jazz kind, but it's like a regular saxophone. And so if you want to have that, I will lend that to you probably forever because I can't imagine -- CR: (laughs) LB: -- as I -- CR: Permanently borrow your saxophone? LB: You could permanently borrow. I can't imagine me needing this and if -- CR: Thank you. LB: -- and I said to Trish, "I wish I knew somebody that needed to borrow the saxophone, I would be happy to --" CR: That would be great, thank you, thank you so much. LB: Get to that point, feel free, and I will lend you. CR: Great. LB: I haven't used it in a long time. I had it refurbished right before when I was using it, but that was a long time ago, so I don't know -- CR: Oh, wow. LB: -- if it works. CR: Yeah, it's been great. They really give you opportunities there to even perform at the school. We had, prior to all this going down, like a student showcase every month that we would perform, show what we learned, so I was already performing with my guitar. The theater club held this big show at the end of the semester in our big main theater. To be onstage with the whole school, I mean it was great. It was great. I felt like a rock star because I have an electric guitar as well, and I was doing that. They're fantastic. I mean we had a lot of... That's going to be the kind of -- like one of the tougher things going back, not really being able to fully enjoy like some of the activities that we had. Like, we have a great theater department. I was heavily involved with that. I was part of their stage crew backstage like painting, building sets. And the biggest thing that I'm warned honestly like with the creative things there was they were going to do this play this past semester called Silent Sky, which I was really excited about. The head of the theater department took me out to lunch last summer when I came back from studying abroad in Spain, and she gave me the script to read and offered me a solo art exhibit in the lobby of the theater to go with this play, like a whole woman-centered kind of exhibit to go with the play. Because the play if you're not familiar with it, it's like that one movie Hidden Figures about the female astronomers or NASA, working in that?. Yeah, it was similar to that. I think it was a true story too. So we had this whole thing. They had just printed -- they had just printed the posters for me for my exhibit right before the school shut down -- LB: No. CR: -- in mid-March. Oh, it was... That would have been a huge break. I was already in the middle of working on these four major, big, installation mixed-media pieces I had set. I got the approval of like the cabinet, the school, the president who -- oh, actually she's -- we're -- really we're real tight over there at the college, Elizabeth. I had her on my radio show that I had there, and she was like, "Oh, I'd love to have you back here as a professor." She's really cool, Elizabeth Meade. But, yeah, I was really excited. I went through this whole approval process. I even had my own art assistant and I was doing all this stuff working with the theater department excited about having the show and a reception and the whole thing and then, boom, then that happens, so we closed. LB: Yeah, that's tough. CR: Yes. LB: So have you been pretty much staying in, or what have you been doing? CR: Well, definitely like everybody else during quarantine, we stayed put here. We don't really take any chances. I'm very protective of my mom. Even after green light or not, I don't care about all that. Because I feel green light does not mean the pandemic is over, which I think people have been confusing the two. Yeah, she's been like grounded for months now. But she goes out like when -- with another immediate family member. I mean, we basically have a hazmat thing on her because we don't want to take any chances. I have an elderly parent, and we're both actually immune compromised. I have diabetes, so I have to watch. It was -- [unless changed?] that it's probably not one of the best things to have during this pandemic right now, diabetes. So I've been really, really careful, very minimal contact to no contact with anybody. And honestly, Liz, it's not even more for me. I will probably survive for the most part, but I don't think she would, so I can't -- I don't take any chances with that. LB: Yeah, (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) -- CR: We keep it very minimal. I don't go to many places other than my part-time job. I clean a doctor's office a couple of times a week, so I was considered essential, so I never stopped working for this cleaning service. I was thankful for that, you know, so... I haven't stopped working throughout the whole time. But fortunately, I get to work by myself, so I didn't have to worry about being around anyone. LB: Yeah, have you gotten additional money from the government or as you --? CR: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.That's helped a little bit and the fact that we don't have a mortgage anymore because we've had this house forever. All those little things helped a lot. LB: Yeah, that makes a big difference. CR: Oh yeah, a big, big difference. LB: It's (inaudible) how that changes. So have you been communicating with a lot of people on media like this or by phone or texting or -- more than you would normally do compared to...? I would guess that you're very involved with MCC, wouldn't you say that? CR: Oh, yeah, yeah. But I've kept very, very busy. We've known each other for a while. You know I keep very busy with a lot of activities and I stay... From the beginning of this pandemic, I made a decision to keep some kind of structure in my life like a schedule because it's so easy to fall into this rut. I would joke about it nonstop when it first started. I was posting on Facebook, but I will be like, "There is no excuse to not wear pants people," you know, like yeah... (laughter) And I've had to push myself, but I would -- especially with school and being online, just it can be like -- you can get lazy. I would make an effort to just keep the routine. I would get up every day, take a shower, brush my teeth, put on real clothes. I didn't want to roam around in pajamas all day. That was a huge, huge thing for me because I know how it's so easy to fall into. It's so easy, so I really made an effort. Even if I was going to stay in the house all day, it didn't matter. We have a yard and stuff. Fortunately, we get to like go outside and not be cooped up all day. But almost from the beginning, I started going to the park more. I go almost every day to our local park just to -- even if it's just to get some air and sunshine. I wasn't going to be cooped up for just -- yeah. I thought that was really important. With the activities, well, school kept me till the end -- almost the end of May, I want to say -- no, like mid-May. That kept me pretty busy because I had six classes, so that's enough to keep you busy for a while. Other than that, after that ended, I realized I had to -- other than working a little bit, I had to do more things, so... During this whole thing, I joined the Red Cross, and I've been in training for one of their jobs, a caseworker but -- that you could do online. That was like a safe job. But now, I want to expand to like in-person stuff, possibly transport blood and things like that from blood drives and things like that. There's like a million jobs they had there, volunteer work that you can do for them. As of right now, what I've been doing lately for them -- to help clients that seek help from the Red Cross. I'm one of their Spanish interpreters now, so that's been -- you know, that's just on the phone or, yes, that can be via Zoom or whatever, but there are plenty of meetings, opportunities. They provide free training on a lot of stuff when you're a volunteer, first aid, CPR, etc., which I'm certified in all that anyway because of prior jobs but... So I did that to occupy my time, and I just felt like I wanted to give back and help the community a little bit in the pandemic. Because you can just get in your head a lot and just feel sorry for yourself about it, and I'm not about that. It was like I just want to get out of my head, help other people, and just be proactive about it, you know? Like, you can be proactive during a crisis like this just like anything else and just do your part. So other than that, I took up learning American Sign Language. I've been taking an ESL course because I love learning different languages, and I've always wanted to learn sign language. So I'm working on becoming trilingual, and I want to practice with other people via Zoom that speak as well. With one, I've been doing that with a friend of mine. So I'm doing that, and, yeah, just I, like, over cope. I do a lot of stuff and play my guitars, keyboard, and writing, doing art. It's a ton of stuff. And I feel like the other thing that I've heard a lot from the beginning of the pandemic that I've never -- I never had to deal with even during the crisis, oh, I'm bored, I'm bored. Boredom seemed to be like a huge issue with people when it first started and I guess even now, but I'm never bored. That's not even part of my vocabulary. (laughs) Like before crisis, after, during, whatever, I still feel like I don't even have enough time in the day usually to do everything that I want to do because I feel like it's really what you make of it. And I can be indoors forever, and I'll never find -- like I'll never not find something to do. I always write a to-do list every day, I've never stopped, I've been doing that for years. I'm also in recovery. So I was a sponsor, and I do step work in Al-Anon for friends and families of alcoholics. I'm not one myself, but you basically follow the same program. So that's kept me busy too as of last about a year or so I've been in it. And so I do that and I'm now the chair the -- the new chair of the meeting every Friday night. So I work on that. My relationship ended that I had almost a year and a half. She was an alcoholic, so I got into Al-Anon to kind of be a support or whatever, but unfortunately, that ended during the beginning of the pandemic. And so that was probably the hardest part for me was dealing with a double whammy, oh, pandemic and a breakup, yay, things are great, so... (laughs) But I have a big support system, family, friends, people from church, and just everybody, so I made it through. The professors were great. Everyone was very patient and understanding about, like, everything. So I got through that. I decided to stay in the program for myself because it's still good. So everybody could use that probably. So I do that. So, as far as communicating with people, I've never stopped. It's been like business as usual just like via the internet, and it's been fantastic, and I had no problems with it. I'm practically in Zoom meetings Monday through Friday with all different people with -- I talk to my advisor, the therapist. And I have a behavior specialist for adult ADHD that I was diagnosed, which would explain all my activity probably a lot, and I'm on medication for that Adderall, so I have a shrink I talk to once a month about that. And, yeah, my sponsor, advisor from school. So I'm basically in the meeting, and plus, I do Zoom things, like I said, with sign language. I do guitar jams with a friend from Georgia who was my roommate in Spain. So I keep super busy like... But that's Monday through Friday, Zooming all week, and I've been involved with a big online lesbian community, lesbians around the country, Canada, and Europe that I talk to regularly almost every day with this chat forum, and we meet via Zoom. So I keep really, really busy with all that stuff. I just have to close this door just real quick so -- LB: Okay. CR: -- just to minimize noise a little bit. (pause) CR: Sorry about that. LB: No problem. CR: I'm just like rattling, but it's been really -- LB: Well, let me -- CR: Huh? LB: Let me ask you something. Do you know anybody that's had the -- have -- has had the coronavirus or anybody that like [who got that?]? CR: Actually, yes, especially in the beginning because I think a lot of people did not... They weren't taking it seriously, I don't think, you know? And so I think people were a lot more careless in the beginning because they just didn't know before everyone's wearing masks and I don't think... You know, the weird thing is -- well, not like funny, funny, but when this all started months -- maybe by the beginning of March, I already definitely could tell that it was going to be bad. I knew like for some -- like I knew it was going to get to this point, and people thought I was being paranoid including my ex-girlfriend and her mom. It's funny like as this was all approaching and I just saw the signs, and I remember talking to them about it. Like, I was, "This is going to be -- this is really going to be bad. This is going to big. I think everything is about to change really soon," and they were like, "Oh, no, no, don't worry. This is just going to pass by like Y2K." (laughs) LB: Oh. CR: I was like, "Y2K? I don't think so." (laughter) I'm like, "I don't think so. I think this is really going to hit everybody like they're not expecting it." Because I was watching Europe and everything, and I knew it was going to be bad. I knew something big was coming, and I had a friend from school who was kind of stuck in Italy for a minute. Because the way -- I went to Spain last spring, it was her turn this summer, and she was in Rome, and I felt so bad for her. I had a bad feeling that it was going to be very short-lived, and she had been planning for this for a year and so excited, and then halfway through the trip, they sent her home. They cut off all study abroad programs, and I'm like, "Wow, I had a good time last spring." I was there three and a half months. That was fantastic. She had to come home because that was just when Italy was closing basically, and if she wouldn't have left when she did, she would have totally been stuck over there, you know, so... I remember already by mid-March, I had started getting masks and all kinds of stuff. And I remember getting -- giving my ex and her mom supplies just before all this started, and they thought I was just being paranoid, which I kind of am naturally anyway, but it was really coming in handy, you know? I remember bringing them -- towards the end, I brought this box. I'm like, "I'm calling it -- this the anti-COVID box." I brought them a bunch of -- this was, yeah, like before mid-March -- a bunch of latex gloves, masks, sanitizer before they all started going off the shelf, and I remember they laughed at me. They were like, "Oh, no, this is --" I'm like, "Hold on to this. Trust me, you're going to need it," you know? LB: Yes. CR: And what happens? I was thinking to myself afterwards ; I'm like, I'm sure they're sitting around thinking, yeah, she called it. LB: Yeah, she called it. CR: (laughs) Yeah, so... LB: So you know people who've had it or...? CR: Oh, yeah, I was going to tell you -- LB: Yeah. CR: Hold on one second. (pause) CR: Sorry about that. It was really scary in the beginning. Probably, oh, gosh, almost a month, going -- so it started in mid-March, it all got shut down. Maybe almost for a month, one person after another who I knew what was starting to get it, some really, really close friends. And I think it was just coupled with the breakup and trying to finish school online, everything was so chaotic. Now, of course, they're going to be totally ready and prepared all summer, but it was so sudden and everyone -- and they just had to adapt, we all had to adapt right away in such a short period of time. The professors were going nuts like, "How are we going to do this?" It was just all so new in the beginning, and just with everything else, the life stuff, it was crazy. I had a slight breakdown at first, like emotionally between that and friends getting sick and then I was getting worried about getting sick and my mom, so really buckling down, and we're not going anywhere. It was a really kind of a state of panic almost in the beginning. And I had some really close friends from other states getting it. My one friend, she's still recovering, she lives in -- originally from Alabama, one of my best friends, and she is in Kansas. She's a professor of biology there. I'm pretty sure she got it at her school. She got very sick from corona, and she was already immune compromised. Now, she's still dealing with the after effects, like the stuff that it dealt. She no longer has corona that I know of, but it did some damage with the other stuff that she has, so she's still dealing with that. Last time, she was at the Mayo Clinic. LB: Oh, my. CR: And my friend from Georgia that I mentioned before, my guitar buddy who I met in Barcelona, Spain, with -- we've kept in touch forever, like in touch since then with each other. She got it twice, and she's young, a young, heathy girl in her twenties. I feel like people are really... They have this illusion that, oh yeah, well, I'm not immune compromised, so I'm not... No, no, no, this is hitting and killing some healthy, young people out there. There's a sixteen-year-old I know from -- that my sister-in-law knows that -- a local person that died from it, a teenager. A friend of mine from church had several family members die from it. My brother had some friends in New York City that he grew up with and already knew for a long time that died from it. It just seemed like at least several times a week, we heard that somebody passed away. So when people got sick, we got really scared. I have one cousin -- and unfortunately, a lot of them are usually people that work a lot with the public. One cousin of mine, we were worried about her going back to work again. She works in a nursing home, and she got it pretty bad. And she had to stay home for a while. Luckily -- I don't know how she didn't get the rest of her family sick, but somehow, she didn't. She was isolated pretty well. So from all these people who are sick, their whole -- I would hear about their whole... It's not just when you're sick like at home with loved ones. You're not just under quarantine, but you're like under quarantine under quarantine because it's like you have to literally isolate yourself in your little bedroom with your cat or whatever, which now dogs and cats are getting it too apparently, you know? But -- LB: Yeah, but it doesn't make them sick, and they can't give it to anyone else, so it's kind of a weird thing. Like they're carriers -- CR: It is weird. LB: -- you know? I don't think -- CR: And like -- LB: -- not really a danger I think to humans -- CR: It's -- LB: -- or to the pets, kind of an odd -- CR: Hopefully not. I mean it's like you hear... I feel like we still don't even know enough about it -- LB: But that is better -- CR: -- to know everything and then I heard that there's more than one strain. I mean you never know like... And it hits everyone differently, different -- it's just so crazy. I feel like it's just too new for us to really nail anything down, to really know about it. So with all that, that's all I need. I just protect myself across the board. I don't care what's like -- unless they really learn about it, figure it out, get a vaccine, whatever, I feel we're going to take these precautions the rest of the year until next year. (sighs) Because I'm supposed to graduate in the spring ; I'm really hoping. I don't see that happening honestly, but I'm really hoping things go back to normal. I've waited so long, like over (laughs) 20 years to go back to school, to be able to walk that stage again with a four-year degree, and do the whole thing, cap and gown, etc., like the whole... I'm really, really, really excited about doing that like I did at LCCC. And I really want my mom to be able to be there, so... Like in my family, we're doing everything we can to keep her safe and healthy. LB: So that's your biggest concern is to keep your family healthy and safe? CR: Oh, yeah. That's been my number one priority. I feel like when a pandemic like this happens, which is like what, around your ears, it really makes you... I feel that the whole quarantine time -- at least for me and I hope a lot of people took this opportunity to do that. Maybe it's because -- (coughs) excuse me -- in recovery or I've always been really spiritual because of my church or whatever it maybe. I took a lot of time to reflect about things, about life, you know? LB: Mm-hmm. CR: That's when you really realize what's important. And I think not being able to go out and about and be so distracted as we usually are, and be stuck with family or whatever, like more time than you're usually used to, to get to know each other and to really just reflect on what's most important. This is a really big, rude awakening, kind of harsh reminder especially for those people that have lost people. There have been like entire families almost wiped out in this stuff, and it's really heartbreaking and sad. And I think with the time off from not being in school or at work or whatever it's been for people -- I feel like that definitely was an opportunity for people to change a lot of things. And speaking of that, the other thing that I got involved with unfortunately, not that I was trying to do that now during COVID, I've been part of the Black Lives Matter movement the whole time it's been around, for seven years now, I think, ish. And since like Trayvon Martin times, been involved with that, been using actually the same signs that I made a long time ago at my old studio, and I wasn't going to do that. I wasn't going to jump in to any rallies or anything any time soon. Under normal circumstances, I would have been to everything. I've been doing that for a long time, but it's -- but it was, of course, like a real concern and... But like my mask and I never take that off outside, and I really stayed. Like, I kept my distance from people. People got too close, I mean I got paranoid. I'm like, "Back up, like immunocompromised" you know like --? LB: Yeah. CR: So I've been really super careful about that. But I've been to a couple of rallies: one for George Floyd and the one from -- for Allentown that happened recently. So I've been involved -- pretty involved with that and a whole bunch of people in both rallies and just involved with a lot of the local organizations. I've been a member of Make the Road PA for some years now. LB: (inaudible) CR: I did some stuff for them. So still doing my activist thing with all that. Unfortunately, that was something that was completely for me -- this shouldn't be unexpected I guess, but that was an unexpected thing to deal with I felt like in the middle of all this going on, but I don't know. I guess everything happens for a reason, and there has been some change happening, which is good, more than I've seen the whole time I've been part of that movement. I think like any other -- like everything else, I feel like some things have gotten a little out of control. I feel like some real good, legitimate change whether it's doing any kind of reform [and things?], it's great. But when it goes to the -- starts going to the direction like, "We're going to take out the seventh episode of The Office" and stuff like that, it's like come on. That's not like -- you know that's not what it's about. Yeah. LB: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.. What do you think about...? And then one of the things we have here in the state of Pennsylvania is that we get to see Dr. Rachel Levine on the news, and she's the secretary of health. Have you had a chance to see her? She's transgender, and she is speaking about -- I mean, we really have pretty good leadership in the state of Pennsylvania. Has that affected you, or have you had a chance to see that? CR: Yeah, I've seen her. Yeah, she seems pretty cool I think. I think she's been harassed a little bit especially during -- with now... I think she's been doing a good job, and this is kind of dumb, like just focusing on the fact that she's a trans woman. Like big deal, you know what I mean? As long as she's doing her job, I don't care what she is, you know what I mean? It's like... That I don't get. I don't think it has anything to do with somebody's job performance -- LB: [Work?]. CR: I think a lot of people just use that as an excuse for their hate speech or whatever they need to do but -- yeah. So I don't have any problems with that. Honestly -- I'm going to plug in my laptop soon before it dies. Hold on. LB: Okay. CR: I'm in the living room trying to get (inaudible). All right. I know like our governor, Wolf, right? LB: Yes. CR: Yeah. He's been under some fire with the way he dealt -- honestly, I like him. I like the way he's dealt with it. I was all okay with the whole shut down and everything. Sure, and probably because it was easier for me ; I was already an essential worker and going to school or whatever. But to me lives come first. I'm sorry, but it's like we can deal with all that later. If we don't take care of this, it's not going to matter. Nobody is going to be around for it, then we won't have to worry about anything. But I totally agree with the way he did it. There's a reason why we're one of the states that had the lowest like the COVID, what, the report of how many cases we have and all that. They said we dealt with it pretty good. I know we're spiking a little bit now, but it's not like Florida or the way New York City was. It could have been way worse, and I think because he did what he did that it's not like Florida. I know it's inconvenient and this and that, but you do what you have to do. I mean this is... How often do we deal with this? I really wish we had done that longer honestly. I wish we'd have done... I'm just being honest about that. I feel like we opened too soon. I think we went the whole business as usual too soon, and now, we're seeing a spike. It's totally going to affect the -- all school for everybody across the board and for the whole country. I feel like this is dragging out probably way more than it should. And to tell you the truth, Liz, I knew it was going to be like this. I knew back in like March when everybody thought I was being paranoid, I knew that it was coming, it was going to be bad, and that it was going to drag on because that's how we are in this country. Like Americans, we are so stubborn and so just dumb when it comes to this kind of stuff and -- LB: You think that that's like your most frustrating thing? That it's really frustrating that you go out and people aren't wearing masks or like that and --? CR: Yeah. I knew they were going to turn it into some kind of rights thing. Like, these people had come out and -- oh, it's disgusting and comparing it to -- it's making it like a civil rights issue. It's like, "What are you doing?" and, "Oh, like we have a right," or like a sign that I saw, My Body, My Choice. Like, no, you don't get to steal like the prochoice movement's stuff for your stupid, like I don't want to wear a mask campaign. I feel like this has really brought out -- this pandemic, a lot of people's true colors, like a lot of people's true color. Like you can see. And I think it's really sad. I feel like... You can just see the people are just out there just for themselves. Like, they're just showing that they just have no concern or care about anybody else but themselves, you know? LB: Mm-hmm. CR: And it's just so selfish what's going on right now. Like when people get sick and they're like, "Oh, that's my problem," whatever. I'm like, "No, any time anybody's sick now anymore, it's everybody's problem. That's the whole point." I mean you have to be careful. You have to like think about other people. You just can't go out there hacking away or whatever and thinking that people aren't going to think you're sick with COVID. Everything has changed. I feel like a lot of people don't want to accept the new normal. Like it sucks, it's not ideal, nobody wants to live like this right now, but unfortunately, it's reality, and the more we realize that, I feel like the quicker we'll get this over with. But I feel like they're just unnecessarily prolonging it being stubborn and going out with signs like, "Let me play golf, let me go get my haircut." (laughs) It's just so ridiculous. LB: (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) really, really being cut back. (laughs) I mean just play golf if you wear a mask because now like I want to be able to play golf and not wear a mask, you know? We're like, "Just for [heaven sakes?]," you know? CR: Yeah, yeah. It's like, whoa, I'm so glad you have your priorities straight, you know? (laughter) LB: No kidding. CR: I mean it's just like it's not for themselves especially for other people you're going to be around. It's like, do you want to see your parents or grandparents again? The more you do that, the more you have to isolate from your loved ones because then you can't be around them. You're like literally putting people in danger unnecessarily, and that's terrible. And I've heard left and right, stories about, oh, like older people passing away because they were around people they probably shouldn't have been around, and a lot of them are their close relatives. I really feel that people don't realize they're like killing their own relatives by doing -- not following these precautions. We have a responsibility to take care of the most vulnerable people in our society. You've got to be a little considerate. That's a big concern for me for people when kids go back to school. I think that's my biggest concern is kids coming -- basically coming back home and bringing this stuff -- even if they're not sick, if they don't have symptoms coming home and infecting their parents, grandparents. That's a big concern of mine. I mean kids are great, but honestly, I'm staying away from them this entire time. (laughs) I've really avoided them at all costs. I know that sounds terrible, but -- LB: [Like with their family?] -- CR: -- that's how I feel. LB: I mean everybody knows that. You take your kid to day care, they're going to get a cold. CR: Oh, yeah. LB: This is far more contagious than a cold or the flu, the regular flu. I know a person who's a pediatrician who was asked by some of her parents of the patients she has, "Well, can I take my kid to daycare?" She said, "Well, if you don't mind them getting it." Here's the thing ; I mean you think that they don't get a cold, they don't get every single infection, everything from the head lice (laughs) to infections to poison ivy, to -- well you name it, your kids are infected if it's in day care of if it's in school. That's why -- you know? CR: Yeah, I'm so glad I don't have to deal with that. I mean, you've got to love them, but it's like they're literally, little germ buckets walking around right now, and I just can't -- I can't deal with it literally. (laughs) I avoid them like anything right now but... I really, really feel for the parents that have to navigate that whole thing, their life with parenthood and the pandemic. That must be awful, especially the parents that I know, especially the single mom parents that don't have that option. Oh, you can't take them to daycare, they don't have school, what do you do with them? They have to go to work especially the ones -- like my one ex that works at a -- what is it, like a nursing home environment, that whole thing. She's the caretaker forever, and these people are constantly worried about bringing stuff home to their kids, you know? LB: Right. CR: And very, very... The best people I know, I know a lot of caretakers, a lot of therapists and everything, and they're all struggling with that. Most of the closest people I know are in health care, so of course, that was a big concern. That was a big worry having so many loved ones in health care like the women's clinic. I used to work at Allentown Women's Center for six years, all my best friends work there. Oh, that's been like a nightmare just worrying about them, and every time I talk to them, not being able to be close to them any time soon, like, "You guys, really be careful," and it's -- LB: Are they open? CR: -- and praying for them every day. Hmm? LB: Are they open? CR: Yeah. They've been open since the beginning. They're considered essentials, women's health. They do abortions, but they do like GYN health care. They've been -- LB: A lot of trans health -- CR: -- about forty years. LB: Yeah. CR: Yeah, now the past... It's been a few years now. They have a whole trans health initiative. I'm proud to say that I got them into -- I put them on the gay map, so to speak, in Lehigh Valley a long time ago back in... I was working -- started in 2005 till 2011 when Jenn Boulanger was there, and I got them to PrideFest, and I was translating a bunch of things in Spanish. I was in charge of -- the bilingual counselor there, I was in charge of the Spanish-speaking patients since we got them -- we started this whole LGBT initiative thing, and so, yeah, they've grown a lot. They've grown a lot in their services, but yeah, being at a doctor's office, like that's been really scary. All my best friends are there, and it's already bad enough with that kind of business. It's already a risky field to begin with. Like prior to the pandemic, it was -- when I was there, it was hard because of protestors, and you get threats. You get bomb threats, you get that kind of stuff all the time really, so they were already in danger even before this but then the pandemic comes rolling around, and then you have to worry about your friends getting sick. That's been stressful. So I always check in with them all the time about that because, yeah, I'd be devastated if anything happened to any of my girls there. Yeah, because those are the best women I know ever, and we've been through a lot together, so... Like I said, this really makes you think what's important and you end up -- I don't know if you've done it, but I know especially in the beginning, you got used to quarantine and everything, I was reconnecting with people I hadn't talked to for a while -- LB: Yeah, absolutely. CR: -- you know? Yeah, and you wonder like, who's going to survive this, who's not going to survive this. In the long run when it's all over, like who's going to be left? I started thinking about stuff like that. LB: We're still in the beginning of it too. CR: Huh? LB: We're just at the beginning of it too. We don't even know what's going to happen. I mean if people are looking at this video of you talking thirty years from now, they know what happened. They may not know what the individual experiences for people would be, but they know what's going to happen with regard to this and how it's going to change the world, and we don't. And people who think that this is going to be back to normal, I mean we had employees at the center or other people that we're working with us would say, "Well, you know in September..." Actually, somebody just asked me to do a training in September, I said, "Well, I can't --" What I said was, "If I can absolutely guarantee that a person at risk won't be at -- there won't be any risk for someone who has high risk there, yes, I'll do it in person." Well, I know that's not going to happen, so there's no way that that's going to happen. Nobody can foresee that. Unless they came out with a vaccine tomorrow that eradicated the entire thing, well, that's going to happen, you know? CR: Right. LB: It's just not, so anyway. What's giving you hope? I mean, what's the best thing that's happened out of this, or what's really giving you hope, or generally, what gives you hope? CR: I think the biggest thing that's kept me together like mentally, emotionally, everything is probably I'm really grateful for my spirituality honestly. And I did this prior to all this happening. I pray and meditate every single day, so I'm very grateful for that. I've been attending church online, visiting several actually in the area, the Gregory Edwards Church and mine. My spirituality, I feel like, and the program recovery, it's given so much comfort so that that's helped a lot. I feel very blessed and lucky to have that and also my support system. I think is really important for people to have that support system and a Zoom account (laughs) to really connect with people because it is -- I feel bad for anyone that doesn't have that connection via... Like if they don't have good internet or a laptop or whatever, I really feel for them because that's like the lifeline for most people to the outside world. The support system I have that I've made for myself from people from school, from church, from other like mental health professionals. Honestly, I feel that we're all going to have -- I think we're feeling the effects of it already especially from quarantine, and I've talked about this with them. I think we're all going to have some form of PTSD from this thing, you know? And I feel like everyone can benefit from some kind of professional help when this is all over or even more like during because it's a lot. It's a lot especially for people like me that are... Well, I'm kind of an ambivert I guess. I can do both like still stay at home and be introvert and extro-- but I am mostly extroverted. The quarantine, that's probably the biggest thing like being out there and hanging out with people and being around people and hugging, and just the whole very people person and [there be?] -- LB: Are you using any dating apps or any queer dating apps or anything? CR: (laughs) Yeah, Tinder is probably not the best -- LB: (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) CR: (laughs) Yeah. Yeah, I feel like you have to be really, really careful. Shoot, I haven't done like online dating app or anything for years. Fortunately being involved, I think being involved in so many circles really improves your chances of dating. But luckily, even after the break, I'm thinking, oh, cool, so dating is not going to happen any time soon. But fortunately, somebody from my recovery group -- we were friends before, we're kind of seeing each other now. So I guess I'm like in a rebound relationship now you can say, so I got lucky with that. And we've kind of screened each other like physically and everything. She works by herself, a caseworker, so it's worked out. It's really worked out that we were able to like get together and know that we're safe because we're -- we've been isolating. (laughs) So I got lucky with that. But, yeah, I know that's not usually the case with most people, and I really hope that people aren't doing that too much. And if they are, I don't really know how you could do that safely at this point and not consider like -- LB: That's why they say -- CR: -- the people (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) -- huh? LB: -- right now, you're your own best friend. CR: Yeah, yeah. (laughs) Absolutely. Yeah, you have to be safe like that especially these days. LB: Sex during corona, you're your own best friend is the -- CR: Seriously, yeah, because it's like -- because in the end -- that's all the things I considered. Like in the end, I'm thinking, is it really worth hooking up with someone right now and then taking that home to your relatives? LB: Yeah, (inaudible). CR: Is it really worth it in the long run? I'm like, nope. So, yeah, it's tough. If somebody wasn't partnered before this went down, this is like -- then it's been -- I know it's been tough for people. I got lucky, but I know like that's -- it is what it is though. Huh? LB: I think people who are living alone, completely alone, it's very, very hard for them. CR: Sure. LB: It's an off thing. I say that to Trish every day. I say, "We're so lucky that we get to be here. We're also so lucky that we have a big enough house that we don't have to be in the same room every day," you know? CR: Right, right, right. (laughs) Definitely, oh, my gosh, and I think that was a big thing too I heard was -- I forgot what country it was. That definitely the corona has gone down and it's going back to normal, and divorce rates are up because people just got so sick of each other, you know? LB: Well -- CR: I could see that. LB: -- a lot of people are looking at their smaller apartments, like people who lived in New York City that were very in small -- like the lodge that I just sleep there, are really looking at different kinds of living arrangements. I don't know if I can ever -- maybe I can never imagine. What if I get stuck doing this again? I have to move to the suburbs, or I have to have more of a communal living situation where a group of people are living together so that they don't have to be alone. They said that like every pet in the -- all the dogs and cats that were in, the strays, everybody adopted them because -- in all the places because people didn't want to not have anything to hug. And I think it was a big deal. I think a big deal. So we're pretty much at the end of this. I wanted to just ask you in the future, we hope that somebody -- well, I think people will look at these. These are very interesting artifacts because comparing this to the flu that happened a hundred years ago, a hundred and two years ago, the flu epidemic of 1918, they didn't have social media then. On the other hand, they didn't really know how dangerous it was, and that's why so many more people died. I mean fifty million people died in that flu epidemic and for a lot of -- one of the reasons is that people weren't sharing information. They weren't telling each other really how they were communicating and how they had to do distance and stuff. You weren't allowed to talk about that really. I think for a lot of us who are concerned about other people, the biggest frustration is elected officials who are leaders who were saying to people, "Well, so what if people die? Go ahead and open. It's only fourteen thousand children that are going to die," that kind of stuff. So that makes us all nuts but.. And it's ridiculous because there's no finite number. We have no idea what this is going to do, and we also know that there has been indication that people -- scientists have said if every single person in the United States wore a mask for three months, this would be over. CR: Mm-hmm, yeah. LB: Right? CR: Yeah. LB: Literally, it would end it. It would end the thing. But people won't wear their masks ; it's crazy. But anyway, what I wanted to ask you is people would be looking at this, so now you're talking to the future and you're going to tell them. Tell them one -- a couple of phrases about sort of what's happening and what you hope is going to happen and to just communicate the feeling of -- like your feelings about how things are now and maybe some hope and what you'll hope it's going to turn out to be and that kind of stuff. What would you say to them? CR: Well, to kind of piggyback on what you just said, I realized that when it first started, like everything shutting down in mid-March or whatever, in some countries, this was already winding down in some places. I think already in China, like it was already winding down, and it wasn't really a long time overall when you look at it because they were really strict with themselves about that. Unfortunately, I don't think that's going to happen here any time soon. I wouldn't be surprised at all if it's not already the country where it lasts the longest because of so many people fighting it. They wouldn't even put up with that in other countries. They haven't as far as I know like the protesting about wearing masks and all that. Yeah, I feel that this has really, like I said, been an opportunity to really -- to unite and just fight this together and just follow what we're supposed to do. But honestly, I feel that it has divided us as well unfortunately, and I can't say that I'm surprised by that. It's really disappointing. That combined with other things that we already had here that we're dealing with. Don't even get me started on our so-called leadership of the country. I think that's a huge, huge part. They have not set a good example in how to deal with this crisis, and I feel that it says a lot. Like whatever the leaders are doing, they're leading by example or they're supposed to be, people are going to follow that. And I've literally heard, I'm sure you did too, on the news, I literally heard people saying like on the beach, "Well, the president doesn't wear a mask, why should I?" That says a lot, and I feel like things would have been one hundred percent completely different if we had somebody else there who would have spotted this a long time ago. It should have been taken care of like the end of last year honestly. If that would have happened, things would have been totally different. So I feel like we were not prepared for this at all, but we should have seen this coming a mile away. Unfortunately, we haven't, we didn't, and this is the result of that but I'm hoping that... And I think sadly, it's going to take another serious wave for it to really kick in, for a lot of people to really realize it especially the people that are still saying, I don't know why, that it's -- I don't know where they're getting this information from, that it's a hoax. People have been dying and getting sick. I feel like they're the ones that need to get sick or have someone around them to really understand. I don't wish this on anybody, but it's like, what is it going to take, you know? LB: Right. CR: So it's been really scary. And it's almost like you have to walk on eggshells and have this constant stress over you all the time. Like, am I going to get it? Am I going to bring this home today? It's like we shouldn't have to live like that, and it doesn't have to be like that. But hopefully, we'll get through it, and a lot of lessons I'm hoping we'll learn to be better prepared, hopefully to have better leadership in the figure. We do have an election -- a big election coming up, so I hope that's reflected in the upcoming elections. If it's not, then it's like, have we really learned anything? So I think there are so many lessons to be learned with the pandemic on a very, very personal level, on a level like your community. It takes a village, you know?LB: Yeah. CR: National level, international level. I mean so many lessons. You need to take this opportunity to really reflect on so many things and not act like it's business as usual because it's not, and it's not going to be for a long time. LB: Yeah. You spent a lot of time in Europe or you were in Europe last year for three and a half months, and I'm sure you have friends in other countries too that -- have you been communicating with those people in other countries about what that -- their experiences were, or was it mostly students that were from here that you were around? CR: Mostly students, but that's a good question. I did make some friends over there mostly from the university. I was -- actually became good friends with my professors that I ended up hanging out with early -- like we hang out with them and fellow artists over there that I worked with. It's a shame ; I haven't gotten in touch with them. I should even if it's just via WhatsApp or whatever. That's been a great source of -- for communication. Yeah, I'm going to check up on them with that because I know Spain was in a major lockdown, major lockdown, but they seem to have done pretty well with it as well. That's what I noticed. The ones that had that most strict lockdown, quarantine procedures are the ones that came out better off in the long run, you know? I really wish we could have done that here. I knew we wouldn't be able to, I just -- I knew. There would just be too much of a hassle, too much ruckus with all these crazy groups going out there on the steps of city hall with -- or wherever it was with their guns and what -- it's so ridiculous. I'm just -- I can't -- you know like -- yeah. I think that's just really dragging it out, and we'll eventually learn the hard way, so... LB: Yeah. Well, this has been a great interview. I really, really appreciate you taking your time to do this with me today, and -- CR: Thank you. LB: -- I appreciate it very much. You do get that thirty day -- we'll try to get the transcript. This goes to a college, a transcripts groups that they transcribe this into writing so that you can look at it then you have some time to look at it and stuff. I can't imagine that you would want to take anything out. Everything you said was brilliant -- CR: Thank you. LB: -- needless to say. And let me give my best wishes to your mom and take care of yourself, and I really appreciate all of that. and I appreciate all the stuff you've done over the many, many years that you've done. I think we've known each other for at least twenty-five years. CR: Oh gosh, yeah, yeah. LB: So yeah, and you've always been there working on this stuff and always very, very vocal and very... And one of the things I was thinking about because I have the same quality as you, is artists are never bored. You always have something. CR: (laughs) Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. LB: Especially since we have the internet where we can show our art on the internet. So it's like, -- CR: Oh yeah. LB: -- well, nobody can see the work I'm doing. You can -- CR: Yeah. LB: You work all the time, and maybe in some way, kind of cool that you get the time to just work and work. I've made two paintings yesterday, so I really do understand it. CR: Excellent, yeah. LB: Thank you very much. I'm going to stop the recording here. CR: Sure. LB: Thanks -- CR: Okay, yeah, no -- END OF VIDEO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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01:12:30
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Cynthia Rodriguez, July 20, 2020 (Part 1)
Description
An account of the resource
Cynthia Rodriguez talks about how the current COVID-19 pandemic is affecting her, her friends and family, her experience as a full time student and her work as an artist and musician. She also talks about prayer and meditation and civil rights activism including Black Lives Matter.
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PH40_31a
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
Date
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2020-07-20
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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-
https://lgbt.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/b83ed7b2ae3c028fdb360599268d8839.png
262d749c57495783af37b5965947bb43
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
An account of the resource
In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Liz Bradbury
Interviewee
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Cynthia Rodriguez
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Viewer)
https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_31b.xml
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5.4 July 20, 2020 Cynthia Rodriguez, July 20, 2020 (Part 2) PH40_31b 00:02:04 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Cynthia Rodriguez Liz Bradbury video/mpeg RodriguezCynthia_2020072020_video.mp4 1:|23(5)|48(16) 0 https://youtu.be/sZiVWpfGEt0 YouTube video 5 Using Zoom for creative and business ventures CR: Okay. So I’ve learned to get really creative on Zoom from the beginning of the pandemic. Actually also, I wrote a few song parodies regarding the pandemic that I would perform on Facebook Live. 0 MovingImage Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
00:02:04
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Cynthia Rodriguez, July 20, 2020 (Part 2)
Identifier
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PH40_31b
Subject
The topic of the resource
COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2020-07-20
Format
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video
Creator
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
Publisher
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
Rights
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Copyright remains with the interview subject and their heirs.
-
https://lgbt.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/5f85dcc744254cf4fe144d78965f26c5.png
2997915d1fdc6b32b0635e884138d92a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
An account of the resource
In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Liz Bradbury
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Sarah Trimmer
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS
Viewer)
https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_30.xml
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka
5.4 July 27, 2020 Sarah Trimmer, July 27, 2020 PH40_30 01:15:27 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Sarah Trimmer Liz Bradbury video/mpeg TrimmerSarah_20200727_video.mp4 1.0:|25(11)|48(2)|81(7)|112(16)|139(11)|166(12)|187(13)|212(9)|237(13)|262(3)|283(7)|310(9)|335(7)|356(12)|377(9)|402(8)|425(16)|452(5)|475(4)|500(9)|523(6)|546(3)|565(9)|586(3)|603(8)|624(14)|649(4)|672(15)|695(18)|722(3)|745(13)|772(9)|795(5)|822(5)|853(2)|882(6)|907(3)|924(13)|945(12)|966(4)|989(7)|1010(2)|1029(8)|1048(8)|1075(5)|1098(4)|1119(7)|1142(4)|1169(6)|1192(2)|1215(18)|1240(7)|1265(10)|1290(8)|1313(16)|1338(10)|1363(2)|1386(3)|1409(7)|1428(10)|1453(2)|1476(16)|1505(5)|1530(9)|1553(4)|1576(3)|1601(4)|1628(11)|1653(11)|1676(8)|1699(10)|1730(4)|1753(3)|1774(15)|1807(11)|1822(5) 0 https://youtu.be/Ti8AKoS5pYQ YouTube video 0 Interview Introduction LIZ BRADBURY: -- and because actually it’s not even six thirty but let’s go for it. I also have an audio recorder because I’m paranoid and anyway with this. So all right, actually with good reason because I did a whole interview and there were some problems with the person’s camera and stuff, and it turned out that it didn’t work at all. I mean the whole ninety minutes, but luckily, I did the audio tape of it and since their camera wasn’t working well anyway, their projector. So I still had because I couldn’t imagine asking this person to do the whole thing again. Okay, so I’m going to read you this information, I want to turn my phone off first I’m going to do that.
 ; 
 ; SARAH TRIMMER: I think I already did.
 ; 
 ; LB: Yes, I did all that stuff so we’re recording. Okay, so with this project Bradbury Sullivan LGBT community center of Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community, collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury and I am here with Sarah Trimmer to talk about her experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of the COVID-19 pandemic as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT community archive. So we’re meeting on Zoom on Monday July 27th and thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today, so can you please first of all state your full name and spell it?
 ; 0 238 Being able to live with family during the pandemic LB: So where you have been in your house and I know that you’ve been working but who is in the home with you?
 ; 
 ; ST: My wife, who is also named Sarah, we’ve been married for six years, together for about eight. And my cousin is also here with us, he’s about the same age as us. Then we’ve got three dogs and a cat.
 ; 0 269 Managing a bed and breakfast during the pandemic/Local colleges' Covid-19 protocols LB: So you’ve been working so tell us a little bit about what you do and what your employer is and stuff like that.
 ; 
 ; ST: So I manage a bed and breakfast and I just landed this job at the end of last year with big huge plans to take it to the next level and then boom global pandemic. So when we were told that we had to shut down we were considered an essential business for lodging, but you know the majority of B& ; B guests are recreational, so they don’t -- a lot of cancellations came through. 0 644 Communicating with friends and work colleagues through Zoom LB: So it sounds like you’ve been communicating a lot with phones and people that way, have you done video chats with people or have you been doing that with your family or what do you think about that?
 ; 
 ; ST: My friends I saw other people were getting together with their friends on Zoom calls and I was like I don’t know if I’m going to like that, it’s weird, like I’m so used to being around my friends face to face, so we tried it one night and we had a freaking blast. 0 751 The severity of the flu epidemic of 1918 and its effect on the Lehigh Valley ST: I think about the you know a hundred year ago flu they didn’t have all this what did they do.
 ; 
 ; LB: No, I’m glad you’ve got that out because I love to talk about the flu epidemic of 1918, because I think it’s really an interesting comparison. It was far more terribly dangerous. Young people died, fifty million people died, my grandmother died in that flu epidemic and she was thirty-two years old, my father was four and his sister was seven. 0 964 Thoughts on Dr. Rachel Levine LB: So we’re lucky in our LGBT community because we get to watch Dr. Rachel Levine who is part of our community. What do you think about seeing Dr. Levine on -- have you seen her talking about the--?
 ; 
 ; ST: Yes a lot of times when I was, when I had to be at work a lot of down time when there’s only one or two guests so I watched the briefing, I watched Cuomo’s and I would watch Wolf’s almost every day, I was really hot and heavy on it in the beginning. And I guess I never paid attention to who our secretary of health was, I didn’t know, I’m just watching this amazing -- and I really like her. 0 1153 Biggest concern during pandemic and its effect on the LGBT community LB: What's your biggest concern during the pandemic and what’s your biggest concern for that matter for the LGBT community?
 ; 
 ; ST: Personally, I am very concerned about getting it. I have survived breast cancer twice and as a result of the radiation treatment I endured the second time I’ve developed a bunch of nodules around my lungs, they’ve sort of diagnosed it as sarcoidosis, but they don’t really know. 0 1295 Not personally knowing anyone who has caught Covid-19/Reaching out to isolated friends and family LB: Do you know anybody that’s had it or that’s been affected by it?
 ; 
 ; ST: Relatives of friends, so no-one that I’ve actually known personally, thank goodness. And someone that I know lost his mom to it so that was pretty devastated, but I’ve also known some younger people that bounce back and they have full recoveries, but no-one really close to my inner circle.
 ; 0 1456 Social distancing-Covid protocols at bed and breakfast LB: For you yourself I know you have to work, and you have to be around people, and you have to tell people that they have to be careful. Have you had any problems with people that have stayed there that didn’t want to wear a mask?
 ; 
 ; ST: No, the guests have been great. I did have an issue with a staff member, so we just went separate ways, it is what it is. I have people in my family that are definitely in support of the current administration and think that masks are not useful, so that’s hard to move past. 0 1555 Socializing during the pandemic LB: For you I mean besides going to work and having to deal with folks that are potentially like that when you have downtime and I don’t know if you have any free time, but if you have free time are you going out? We know a lot of people who are going out and we think for me I’m thinking what the heck are you doing.
 ; 
 ; ST: Yeah, so Sarah and I we love our community, downtown Easton, we were there a lot, she worked as a bartender and a server for many years down there, now she sells cars but so many of our friends are down there, that was like what we did, we really enjoyed being social. 0 1668 Watching movies about lesbians to pass the time ST: The other thing that we did to pass the time so Sarah found this list online I want to say maybe it was on like Autostraddle or something and it was a list of one hundred and twenty lesbian movies and so she’s like we’re going to power through this, we have all this downtown. 0 2243 Frustration with government messaging/frustration over President Donald Trump in general LB: So what’s the biggest frustration you’re having right now?
 ; 
 ; ST: I think the lack of consistent messaging from the government being I don’t even like saying who is up there behind a podium touching the microphone and not wearing a mask and the next person, like you lead best by example. 0 2391 Feeling safe being openly bisexual in the Lehigh Valley, despite living under the Trump presidency ST: I try really hard just to focus on our own bubbles, you know the Lehigh Valley has a lot of great things, Bradbury Sullivan Center being one of them, we’re progressive, I feel safe walking on the street holding hands with my wife in our community and the other areas of the Lehigh Valley, I’m very grateful for that. 0 2426 Discussing Black Lives Matter/being anti-racist at a young age/thoughts on policing and police reform ST: [...] I mean the civil unrest that we have happening right now, the Black Lives Matter movement, it’s hard to just--
 ; 
 ; LB: I’ve asked everybody to talk about Black Lives Matter if they want to, so do you want to talk about that for a little while go ahead and say some stuff.
 ; 0 2681 Finding positives during the pandemic/having more free time LB: So you’ve already talked about being worried about getting the virus and taking a lot of precautions to avoid that. What’s the best thing that you’ve really experienced so far, what’s giving you hope now, and I think you were talking a little bit about young people marching, that’s one of the things that gives me hope.
 ; 
 ; ST: Yes, I think I’m realizing that there’s more channels to communicate with each other. Seeing the global pollution go down has been something I’ve been -- you know a positive aspect I’ve been trying to focus on. I do try to kind of be the glass half full, it’s hard for me. 0 2915 Exercise during the pandemic LB: Have you had an opportunity to sort of like work into a regime of some kind of exercise, I just talked to somebody who said I don’t go out of the house at all, and it was a young person and they said there’s a -- they ended up being stuck in a place where they couldn’t go home so they had to stay at somebody’s family’s house from college and then the family left so they’re by themselves and I said if you’ve been like -- and they’re in the woods and I said have you been going outside and he said, “No there’s a bear, I’m not going out, what are you crazy, I’m not going out.” So I thought that was really funny.
 ; 
 ; ST: I am not built for this hot hot weather we’ve been having lately. I'm not a hot weather person, so I don’t I try not to go outside either. We bought this house last year and there’s an above ground pool, so we hang out in there a lot, that’s about the extent of the exercise I’m getting. But I’m not swimming, I'm floating. 0 3026 Mental health and self care during the pandemic LB: So it sounds like you’re doing pretty well with your mental health, this actually says how would you describe your mental health right now. What do you think about that?
 ; 
 ; ST: I think I was way more sporadic than normal, I feel like I’m pretty even keel most of the time, like middle of the road, I don’t let bad things like really ruin my day unless it’s like a catastrophe 0 3108 Wearing masks during pandemic/grocery shopping during the pandemic ST: I was actually -- I had a big box of masks that I still had from when I was going through chemo because when your cell counts are low you know you have to mask up to go in public. So I wore masks before it was cool, no but I was probably one of the first people going to the grocery store with a mask on and got a lot of weird looks from people and it was funny like as the weeks ticked by then it was like you’d see more and more people and I’d shoot them like a -- no I didn’t, it was interesting to see the progression because of course at first they said well we think people should have them, but it’s because they learned more about the virus so they learned that yes this is a good thing so that was interesting. I was a little high strung at first, I was doing the whole sanitizing all of the groceries because they said it was like living on surfaces we didn’t know.
 ; 0 3491 Masks/Vaccines/England's and China's lockdown protocols in contrast to America's LB: We just went out ; we haven’t been out in probably two weeks and we’ve really only been out together to go to doctor’s appointments. So we went to a doctor’s appointment today, we’re coming back and every single person that we saw we made a comment on whether or not they were wearing a mask and it drives you nuts. 0 3683 School and college social distancing protocols ST: Are you in your Covid interviews? Do you have any educators or teachers that you’re interviewing?
 ; 
 ; LB: No, I talked to somebody who was a retired teacher who has a lot of teacher friends and he was very strong about saying it’s just ridiculous and he gave me so many interesting little insights into it 0 4026 Unexpected effects of the pandemic on nature ST: But the unexpected ripple effects of this you know the more people that you talk to and it sounds like you -- you know you get to talk to all these people with these interviews and things are sprouting up that you wouldn’t even think. One of my friends works in the parks system so when this first happened the shutdown everybody’s like let’s get back to nature and it was March, April, it was great weather so like the first or second weekend there were like seven forest fires not like raging forest fires but there were seven fires in our parks system that had to go be extinguished because it’s like people that never go out into nature are suddenly out there [...] 0 4092 Wealth redistribution for children's education/Universal healthcare LB: It will be a thing to see if indeed people like for example well we can’t afford to pay kids you know we can’t afford to pay for kids to have education and suddenly we have a trillion dollars to line everybody’s pockets, a trillion dollars is so much money that that would mean every single person in the entire Lehigh Valley could have two million dollars for children, you know.
 ; 0 4148 Conclusion/HBO series "Gentleman Jack"/Anne Lister LB: So, yeah, well this has been a wonderful conversation, I’m so glad to get to talk to you, what a good time. We’d love to stop by on Zoom at your bar.
 ; 
 ; ST: We’ve got to hash out the happy hour specials I’ll let you know.
 ; 
 ; LB: Tell people what happy hour special it is so that they could bring it to their Zoom. Their own concoction as a mocktail or something. But it would be really interesting to hear what it ends up to be that is your perfect lesbian movie.
 ; 0 MovingImage Sarah Trimmer talks about how the current COVID-19 pandemic is affecting her, her essential worker job managing a bed and breakfast in South City Bethlehem, and her concern about the virus because she is at high risk as a breast cancer survivor. She also discusses how she and her wife have replaced new entertainment interests for things they regularly did before the virus. Sarah Trimmer 2020-07-27 LIZ BRADBURY: -- and because actually it's not even six thirty but let's go for it. I also have an audio recorder because I'm paranoid and anyway with this. So all right, actually with good reason because I did a whole interview and there were some problems with the person's camera and stuff, and it turned out that it didn't work at all. I mean the whole ninety minutes, but luckily, I did the audio tape of it and since their camera wasn't working well anyway, their projector. So I still had because I couldn't imagine asking this person to do the whole thing again. Okay, so I'm going to read you this information, I want to turn my phone off first I'm going to do that. SARAH TRIMMER:I think I already did. LB: Yes, I did all that stuff so we're recording. Okay, so with this project Bradbury Sullivan LGBT community center of Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community, collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury and I am here with Sarah Trimmer to talk about her experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of the COVID-19 pandemic as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT community archive. So we're meeting on Zoom on Monday July 27th and thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today, so can you please first of all state your full name and spell it? ST: Sarah Trimmer, S-A-R-A-H T-R-I-M-M-E-R LB: Great. Can you please share your birth date? ST: May 22nd, 1981. LB: Are you in Bethlehem, is that what town you're in? ST: Palmer Township. LB: Oh you're in Palmer Township okay, now is the consent portion. So the first part says do you consent to this interview today? ST: Yes. LB: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable format? ST: Yes. LB: Do you consent to the LGBT archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats including films, articles, websites, presentations, and even other formats we may not even imagine? ST: Yes. LB: And that could be, do you understand that you will have thirty days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview and identify any parts you'd like to delete and/or withdraw, or withdraw or withdraw the entire interview from the project? ST: Yes, LB: Okey-doke, so this is the identity part of it. So what is your zip code for where you are? ST: 18045. LB: What is your age? ST: Thirty-nine. LB: How do you identify within the LGBT community trans, gay, lesbian, bi, pan, queer, QTPAC, nonbinary, etc? ST: Do I have to pick one? (Laughs) I would say bisexual. LB: Okay. Here are some things and cisgender would we say? ST: Yes. LB: Here are some things to think about, oh I already told you that. Okay so these are general things and you can answer anything you want with regard to how this goes. But we're just going to hit this right up front. So where you have been in your house and I know that you've been working but who is in the home with you? ST: My wife, who is also named Sarah, we've been married for six years, together for about eight. And my cousin is also here with us, he's about the same age as us. Then we've got three dogs and a cat. LB: So you've got a whole family there that's great, I've talked to a few people who have been totally by themselves and it's been very hard for them, I think. So you've been working so tell us a little bit about what you do and what your employer is and stuff like that. ST: So I manage a bed and breakfast and I just landed this job at the end of last year with big huge plans to take it to the next level and then boom global pandemic. So when we were told that we had to shut down we were considered an essential business for lodging, but you know the majority of B& ; B guests are recreational, so they don't -- a lot of cancellations came through. I had to lay off my entire staff and on the off chance that we did get one or two reservations I would, most of the time I just had the phone at home and I was taking all the calls at home, but if we had one or two reservations I was going in, getting the property ready for the arrival, cooking the breakfast in the morning, cleaning the rooms, doing the laundry, all of that. So I was like a one person show for many weeks and even when I was home the phones were just off the hook so many cancellations came through and inquiries of well are you open and what's going on. So it was a rough couple of weeks for sure, then my company was able to secure one of the loans, I called some staff back but then the loan money ran out and I did another round of layoffs because we still aren't seeing the business to support my entire staff. It's a little better, it's starting to pick up and we're obviously very very careful, so yeah definitely not what I was expecting for my first time managing a B& ; B. LB: What a surprise. I've been talking to a lot of people, this is actually my twenty-third interview and I have to do twenty COVID-19s and I have already done -- so this will be the thirteenth of those or the fourteenth one of those and then I also did ten HIV/AIDS ones for people who had lived through the AIDS epidemic in the 1990s which was very interesting and very different from the Covid although people talked about Covid because they were talking now about how it related to the actual epidemic. But a lot of people I've spoken to are involved with the colleges because we have a lot of colleges in Lehigh Valley so are you seeing this as -- you're pretty close to Lehigh Valley University and they're talking about opening, but do you think that's influencing your reservations and stuff? ST: Yes, so we have a very close relationship with Lehigh Valley all the alumni come to us, all the parents, the kids when they're visiting the college before they're enrolling. So they had tasked us with sourcing some rooms because they thought, you know, they were building new dorms and they had to stop construction. So they thought they weren't going to have enough housing for these incoming students so I had worked the area hotels trying to scramble to find housing for these students and it turns out they didn't need them, but should they need to quarantine international students they've approached us to ask if we would. Because if it's a student that's from like Chicago that is exposed or tests positive than can, you know, hopefully travel home, or stay but an international student doesn't have that luxury of just going home to quarantine. So they've approached us if we would accept some students that had to be quarantined. And other area hotels are already doing that, it seems really scary, we even at one point were talking to area hospitals that if the medical professionals didn't want to go home and expose their families would we house them. And that was a hard pill to swallow. I'm like well then, I'm kind of being exposed or my staff is being exposed to those front lines. But I, you know, we really looked at it through a lot of different lenses and talked to a lot of different agencies and we were ready to take that on if we had to. Ultimately, we didn't have to, we didn't have that -- we were preparing for that peak in the Lehigh Valley, but we didn't quite see where the hospitals were overrun, and the medical people didn't want to go home to their families. Yeah, I'm waiting for Lehigh Valley to make the announcement that they would, like Lafeyette did, if they're going to go virtual, but I don't know I think Lehigh's going to trudge ahead and see what they can do, hopefully safely. I know they've been meeting about it a lot ; I know they will be safe. LB: Just saying because even colleges that are not planning on opening are taking in groups of students that can't go home and I was just speaking with somebody who cannot go home and this is a Kutztown student so they've arranged for housing and they have international students too, so there is definitely -- and it's not even that the folks are needing to be quarantined they just can't go home, they don't have any place to go. So even if the colleges close like Kutztown apparently will be running all of its classes -- we have a family friend who goes to Colgate and they also it's totally they're going to be in their rooms but they're going to be there but they're going to be doing online classes. So it's an interesting thing and apparently the students really want to do that because they want to at least feel like they're on campus. I don't know about that I don't know, I don't because I guess they would have to pay then, so I think there must be some kind of privilege involved in that to be able to afford to do that at a lot of the schools. So it sounds like you've been communicating a lot with phones and people that way, have you done video chats with people or have you been doing that with your family or what do you think about that? ST: My friends I saw other people were getting together with their friends on Zoom calls and I was like I don't know if I'm going to like that, it's weird, like I'm so used to being around my friends face to face, so we tried it one night and we had a freaking blast. And so it's opened up this whole new way to communicate with each other which was cool and I did not expect it to give me that sense of like oh I got to see my friends today, I got to hang out with my friends today, but it left me with that and I was really surprised by that. On the contrary you know it's like work gets ahold of like, "We can Zoom call now." And it was like that could have been an email so like I was so excited to have that extra way to communicate with my friends but on the flip side like you know the very first Zoom call for work it's like you know full hair and makeup, make sure you've got pants. And then by like the middle I was like oh whatever, hair is in a bun I just rolled out of bed. And then like now I don't even put my video on for Zoom calls I'm like come on just like -- what I love about it is how many companies are going to continue to do this and not make people drive into the office. And we're seeing the pollution go down in so many areas and if there's any sort of bright spot or positives to all of this hell we're going through I really found some happiness in that. Like maybe people will scale back how much they're traveling into the offices or whatever. And it's another way to communicate so they've been just for it. I think about the you know a hundred year ago flu they didn't have all this what did they do. LB: No, I'm glad you've got that out because I love to talk about the flu epidemic of 1918, because I think it's really an interesting comparison. It was far more terribly dangerous. Young people died, fifty million people died, my grandmother died in that flu epidemic and she was thirty-two years old, my father was four and his sister was seven. And after she died his father left these two kids with his wife's parents and he just went to South America and never came back ; he was an engineer and he was building roads and stuff. So the effect that that had a hundred years ago on me is a residual effect because my father grew up without a mother, I didn't have a second grandfather because of that, and it's surely absolutely influenced his life very significantly. So when you have a circumstance like that and people say well you know it was a long time ago, really you know who knows even that was incredibly significant. And a lot of people had to deal with the government because it was during World War I they told people they couldn't talk about it, it was sedition to talk about it, because they didn't want America to seem like it was weak. So all of these because it was, we were at war. And so all these people were just, I mean Easton for example five hundred people died in Easton, thousands of people died in Allentown, Bethlehem was pretty good at quarantining and they had about a hundred deaths. If you compare that to even Easton which was a tiny city in comparison Easton was really small then, it was terribly serious -- one out of every three people in the whole world had that flu. And yeah, they couldn't talk to each other, they barely had phones and most people didn't have phones and they certainly didn't have the ability to see each other. And people would be desperate to see each other and they would wear masks and they would like go and there's a story about these four women that wanted to play Mahjong and they gasped but they wore all these masks and everything, and they played Mahjong and by the end of the day three of them were dead. It was that kind of flu ; people would die in one day from that flu. It was amazingly terrible and it was involved with the war too, it really -- so it's a lot of people, but it had to do with young people, it influenced young people. And some people that it came from a flu that had affected little children twenty years before and so that's why those, like if they had had it twenty years before then they would die quickly from it if they had it when they were twenty to forty years old. ST: I never read that, that's really interesting. LB: There is a theory and since we don't know anything about flus who knows, you know, if it stays there for twenty years. Yeah, I'm actually fascinated by that flu because it affected my family but also affected every single thing that happened in the United States for the entire century and people forgot about it pretty quickly but it was true. So we're lucky in our LGBT community because we get to watch Dr. Rachel Levine who is part of our community. What do you think about seeing Dr. Levine on -- have you seen her talking about the--? ST: Yes a lot of times when I was, when I had to be at work a lot of down time when there's only one or two guests so I watched the briefing, I watched Cuomo's and I would watch Wolf's almost every day, I was really hot and heavy on it in the beginning. And I guess I never paid attention to who our secretary of health was, I didn't know, I'm just watching this amazing -- and I really like her. I thought she was so direct in her delivery. What was interesting to me is like Cuomo ran his conferences but really when you look at Pennsylvania's conferences it wasn't Wolf running them it was her, and I was just like man she's awesome. And then all the ugliness came out and I was like oh I honestly didn't even realize though it's so -- then I was extra proud you know I'm like man like it was so great that she's running these conferences and she's brilliant and she's always like you could see how frustrated she'd get when day after day people would ask the same damn questions. And I always loved at the end when she'd flip and she's like now for our daily reminders. And I swear by the end I could almost like recite them with her wash your hands for twenty seconds in soap and water. And it's like she had to, she had to pound it into these people heads because they just weren't getting it. And it was just so obviously representation is important so to see that is great and it's just so absolutely disheartening that she's being attacked still today, today in what was it Morris County there was a menu did you see that story? Come on it's just disgusting that this woman's there, she's trying to navigate us through a serious health crisis and people choose to focus on something like I don't know, well we're all faced with that all the time. But I was so proud of her and then it was just like oh my gosh even better. LB: And you know I've had a number of people say that young transgender people have expressed so much shock that somebody would be attacked this way that they have said to some of the leaders and some of the people that work in our program at our center you know, "Is this going to happen to me?" And I was talking to her in place and one of the things the messages that we have to say is, "Look, heroes are attacked, if it was easy to do this you wouldn't be a hero." People admire, we admire them for standing up to adversity and that's what she does with the incredible grace and science and every kind of calmness that makes people listen to her and it's very positive. We're lucky that we get to have her. ST: Absolutely. LB: What's your biggest concern during the pandemic and what's your biggest concern for that matter for the LGBT community? ST: Personally, I am very concerned about getting it. I have survived breast cancer twice and as a result of the radiation treatment I endured the second time I've developed a bunch of nodules around my lungs, they've sort of diagnosed it as sarcoidosis, but they don't really know. So I've tried to research as much as I can about how would Covid interacts with sarcoidosis, or how would Covid interact with someone who has got lung nodules. Like it's very concerning for me, there's no information out there of course because we don't know enough about either affliction. So I don't know that I would survive it, I don't want to get a cold let alone get this, you know, virus that we don't know very much about. So that's been my personal biggest concern, and I will say having gone through two bouts of breast cancer in the Lehigh Valley with our hospital network we're very very lucky here. I remember at the beginning worrying that they wouldn't let my wife in appointments with me or something, we never encountered that, everyone was incredible that I had to deal with with my care team. So, I think for the community I would be concerned about we already have a lack of healthcare, we already have you know we're statistically not as equipped as other communities, so it is concerning. But I will say that in the Lehigh Valley it's not as concerning for me, and I'm incredibly grateful for that, I feel incredibly privileged that I can say that, that I don't' have a concern about what kind of healthcare would I receive. LB: I was reading about people talking about moving to other countries and then somebody started saying oh you know you could move to Bolivia or Belize and they said of course they don't have any hospitals there. So like well okay if that's what you want to do. Do you know anybody that's had it or that's been affected by it? ST: Relatives of friends, so no-one that I've actually known personally, thank goodness. And someone that I know lost his mom to it so that was pretty devastated, but I've also known some younger people that bounce back and they have full recoveries, but no-one really close to my inner circle. LB: So there's a question here that says are you spending any time on queer dating hookup sites I don't know if that really applies. But how about extended -- you know being able to talk to LGBT friends who might have similar kind of sensitivities that you do with that gives you an opportunity to talk to people like that, do you have friends that fit that bill? ST: Yes, I think, you know, both my gay and straight friends we, Sarah and I, my wife and I really focus on reaching out to our friends that already struggled with isolation. Those were probably those people we most concerned about. You know even my father in law he's super high risk, he had a double lung transplant about six years ago which was crazy, but he lives alone and every Sunday we'd go to breakfast with him and hang out with him and we can't he's high risk, you know, we were arranging his groceries to be delivered and the one time that we did have to go over there it was like dropping stuff off at the door and running away. I hate not seeing my grandmother who is 82 and we've since, you know, very safely have visited with those high-risk people but I guess we were at our peak really like the first part of April. I remember doing a lot more like it was almost like on my to do list every day, like make sure you reach out to these people, because I am very fortunate that I'm in a house surrounded by family and animals, but for my friends that weren't and have to further isolate I can't imagine, it has to be really hard. LB: For you yourself I know you have to work, and you have to be around people, and you have to tell people that they have to be careful. Have you had any problems with people that have stayed there that didn't want to wear a mask? ST: No, the guests have been great. I did have an issue with a staff member, so we just went separate ways, it is what it is. I have people in my family that are definitely in support of the current administration and think that masks are not useful, so that's hard to move past. That's really hard to forgive, like I don't want to sit at a dinner table with them anymore, so I'll maintain social distance from them forever, it's very difficult. We talked through it actually as a staff before we kind of brought everyone back to work, we had meetings and we talked through, all right what's it going to look like if we have someone here that shows up at the door, because we have the big signs on the front door, guests must wear masks inside, shows up not wearing one or refuses to wear one, what's that going to look like. So we talked through procedure for that and we're ready for that. I mean we're not happy about it, but you never know I think it's quite possible that we'll encounter something like that. LB: For you I mean besides going to work and having to deal with folks that are potentially like that when you have downtime and I don't know if you have any free time, but if you have free time are you going out? We know a lot of people who are going out and we think for me I'm thinking what the heck are you doing. ST: Yeah, so Sarah and I we love our community, downtown Easton, we were there a lot, she worked as a bartender and a server for many years down there, now she sells cars but so many of our friends are down there, that was like what we did, we really enjoyed being social. And we said the other night, we like we think this whole thing has finally broke our habit, because you would think that two people that love it so much as soon as it reopened like we'd be down there, we went once and we were like this is not for us, I don't want to be around people just aren't taking the masking seriously enough for me. And like I said I'm very concerned about getting it, I'm very concerned about even social distance visit with my father-in-law like giving him something, so it's just not worth it. We built a bar in our garage, we're calling it the gay-raj, and we've been hanging out in there like it's just as great as going downtown. Because now we don't have to Uber home, we're saving a lot of money, we're not eating out, like why didn't do this years ago. And the other thing that we did the past time -- LB: Do you have people over for that? ST: Sometimes, but again it's like we don't want a ton of people over, so our friends will come by and they sit at the other end of the bar and we're all consuming alcohol so that kills germs right. The other thing that we did to pass the time so Sarah found this list online I want to say maybe it was on like Autostraddle or something and it was a list of one hundred and twenty lesbian movies and so she's like we're going to power through this, we have all this downtown. So she prints this list out and she cuts them into strips, folds them up puts them in this like gift bag and every day she'd like shake it and I'd pull one out and all that would be on the strip was they ranked number 1-120, so it would be the ranking, the title and then like year that it came out. So what a bunch of terrible movies let me tell you. Oh my god I think we made it through twenty-three of them and we just, I mean-- LB: Any good ones? ST: A couple, there were a couple of good ones, one of our favorites is Carol so that was in there. I mean what was great it was from all, from like the sixties up and from all over the world, there were French movies in there, so we still have the bag. I'm sure that we'll watch it from time to time, but she just, it was great to see so much representation we don't always get that in every movie we watch, but man some of them were a struggle to get through. And there were some days where she'd like walk over shaking the bag and I'm like not today I just can't not today, like unless you pick one in the top ten, I'm not doing it. LB: Did you see anything in the top ten that you thought -- like one of my favorites is Desert Hearts, I thought Desert Hearts was a great movie even though it was a long time ago, it was in the eighties. ST: Who was in that one? I think we did watch that one, that sounds very familiar. LB: It's about an older woman and it's about these two women, one of them is getting a divorce in Reno, it's the 1950s and Kay is this young woman who lives, and she makes ceramics and they-- ST: That sounds familiar, see they're all just starting to run together at this point because we've watched so many. Sarah had a rating system and everything so she was into it. LB: It is true that some of them like they're so bad and people will say, "Oh you know entre nous you know" and I remember one time somebody said all these people were sitting in the audience one of them just shouted out, "This is like a bad date." ST: That's great, but you can absolutely identify that someone who was never like in a same sex relationship wrote these movies, someone who was never even, they have no idea about like lesbian sex, nothing and you're watching this on the screen like what in the hell is this. So we also realized that we could probably write a better someday and we should, a screenplay I don't know. LB: When you get to a time where you want to watch something don't forget that you can watch some of my art history videos on our website. I think I have three on our website and one on the Parkland Community Library website and they're funny too. So it's worthwhile to see it and if you go to our Facebook page Bradbury-Sullivan Facebook page and look at all the different videos that are there they're longer one's forty-six minutes, one's twenty-two, you know that kind of stuff, it's good dinner fare and kind of interesting. And you go huh that's, you know, and it's interesting one of them was about Greek myths and what the LGBT Greek myths, and I just did that one for Parkland. So those are fun to watch, I want to encourage you to do that because I went to a lot of -- people like them who saw them, more than a thousand people saw them so it was pretty great to do it that way. So I was going to ask you what sort of queer activities have you been doing and you just describe it this perfect thing, it's actually a perfect thing, I think it's wonderful. How about Liana, did you see the movie Liana, it's black and white, John Sales did it, he also did other famous movies including that baseball movie about-- ST: I'm writing it down because-- LB: Liana, it's L-I-A-N-A and even though it was made by a man, John Sales is the guy who made Field of Dreams and sort of an independent movie maker, but I saw that movie a long time ago and I mean I was in college or maybe I was in graduate school and I thought this is pretty good, this person does seem to get the whole thing about the deal. Desert Hearts was made by a woman though and it's right, you look at that and you go yeah that would really happen. ST: Well speaking of Field of Dreams what was the movie that was just made about the two women that were on the team, a documentary about their lives that was a-- LB: It's called Secret Love. I actually hated that, I hated it. ST: You hated it? LB: Because the person that made that was actually Terry's nephew or great nephew and it's really not about them it's about the family being able to deal with them. This whole thing it's so fucking depressing, I mean for heaven sakes and they don't know anything about these women's lives, they've been together for a million years, obviously they were very uncomfortable to come out to the family and you could see why for heaven's sake. ST: Sarah didn't like it, I think I was comfortable watching something very depressing at that current time, I was like this is just what I needed. She felt the same way she's like yeah, they did a shitty job. LB: They did a shitty job because nobody said for example, they made it seem like when they were getting married that it was such a cute thing, they didn't point out that when they get married that the other woman whose name I can't remember, Terry and Pat, that Pat was protecting herself, because had Terri died before they were married the family could have come in and just made off with half of everything. ST: Just like the book club -- the Under This Beautiful Dome. LB: Yes, exactly. ST: That always stuck with me just how-- LB: Yeah and so they didn't say, you know, how important and even when they were having dinner with those older guys who were their gay male friends and they don't say you know if we don't do this we're going to end up having to pay 15% tax on everything the person who is -- you know they didn't talk about the practical stuff of it because the people who made the movie didn't understand what this really meant. And then they're looking at oh look they had a whole life with all these other gay friends, of course they did why do you think they lived in Chicago not near you. I actually incorporated that into a training that I did and I use it in my training for older adults where I say in the nursing home where the person says like are they going to be accepted, the niece says that and the nursing home administrator says well didn't they say hi to you when you came in as thought that would be it, that's the response instead of yes we have a non-discrimination policy which includes sexual orientation and gender identity, we'll show you the different kinds of resources we have. They don't say that they said didn't they say hi to you when you came in like that would be enough, you should be-- ST: Oh yeah, you're right, yeah. LB: Well tell Sarah that she's absolutely right. You can watch that it's got some wonderful stuff about their baseball teams and stuff and their incredible relationship that they had which was driven. That's not what the movie's about, you know, if the movie was about that we would all be cheering for them for heaven's sake. ST: What was the other one, was it Freeheld where the police chief got cancer, obviously that really resonated with us, we were solving that, I thought that was pretty well done. And then of course as soon as you're watching you go and you're on Google looking up the true story and you want to see the real people behind the characters on the movie and what a story. LB: Steven Goldstein was the main guy, he's the Jewish lawyer, he's one of our Facebook friends. I mean you probably are Facebook friends with him, because he's just local. He's in the southern part of New Jersey and he actually worked with what's the name of that movie star, the guy who played that who was in the office, I can't remember his name. But Steven Goldstein actually met with him and said you're doing the gay part ; you're doing the Jewish part okay but you're not doing the gay part okay. Let me explain how you do this, and it was you know so they really, when they made that movie, they really paid attention to what it needed to be. So that was pretty good, plus the actors were so good, you know. So good for you for doing that, I love that aspect, so you haven't had any problems being out to your family because you're with your family and they're cool. So what's the biggest frustration you're having right now? ST:I think the lack of consistent messaging from the government being I don't even like saying who is up there behind a podium touching the microphone and not wearing a mask and the next person, like you lead best by example. I mean that's like leadership 101, that's what you learn like if you're even on a team as a child you learn, like you lead by example and do as I, you know, anyway. I mean I find sometimes when I'm scrolling through Facebook like if my sound is on and someone shares a clip of him speaking that just his voice strikes a tinge, like this response in me and that's so not healthy. I'm 50% hopeful-- LB: I just want to stop and say that you know if people are watching this thirty years from now that we're talking about Trump. ST: Yes, I just don't like saying his name, it also strikes that tinge in me. I'm fifty percent hopeful and I'm fifty percent riddled with anxiety about this election which is in 99 days but who's counting because we never thought he was going to win the first time, and that night watching the polls we were crying and I don't care if that makes people call us snowflakes or whatever, I've been called worse. We knew, we knew this was not -- we have, we know people who have family that like golf with that man and it was literally like a dare it was a joke he wouldn't be the president, so you have this person who doesn't even care about this country. He doesn't and we knew it, we knew it was bad news for the LGBT community, we knew it was bad news for just us as a country and it's sad to see especially coming off the heels of Obama's administration. So I'm frustrated beyond belief with what I see at the top there. I try really hard just to focus on our own bubbles, you know the Lehigh Valley has a lot of great things, Bradbury Sullivan Center being one of them, we're progressive, I feel safe walking on the street holding hands with my wife in our community and the other areas of the Lehigh Valley, I'm very grateful for that. But, I'm incredibly heartbroken and frustrated for things that I see happening in the rest of the country and nothing like a pandemic to just amp it up even worse, I mean the civil unrest that we have happening right now, the Black Lives Matter movement, it's hard to just-- LB: I've asked everybody to talk about Black Lives Matter if they want to, so do you want to talk about that for a little while go ahead and say some stuff. ST: Yes, so I grew up in Warren County, New Jersey, which is just over the border from the valley. I moved to the valley about fourteen years ago, but that county houses an incredibly racist town that was just a couple of minutes north of where I grew up. So I was in high school with those kids and I graduated in '99, I was 1998 or 1999 there was an incident of a man being drug behind a pickup truck with a noose in Texas. And there was a group of kids in my class who called themselves proudly The Rednecks, and then walking through the hall one day I spotted a noose hanging out of the one kid's locker and I questioned them about it, I said what is this about. And inside of his locker he had the article of that lynching in Texas and said that the man that did was his hero. And I don't consider myself a violent person now but when I was seventeen, I was a little crazy and I kicked his locker shut on his hand and hurt his hand really bad. But when we went to go to the office to talk about what had happened I didn't get suspended or anything, I maybe got like a day of in school suspension but I've always been anti-racist, I don't want to say that I'm not racist, I am anti-racist and you know I've always had my eye on the police and what they're doing. I attended a free [Malia?] march when I was seventeen-years-old it's just something that's very important to me, I am disgusted by people that think any less of someone who has a different skin color. So in terms of what's going on right now I'm here for it, I love seeing young people on the street and fighting for this and I hope to see significant change in my lifetime. I hope to see radical overhauls of our police department so that we have more thoughtful response to things and we're allocating sources to better respond to -- you know we should be taking some of the burden on, I would never sign up to be a police officer. I have great respect for the people that do but they are overwhelmed and they need more training. So I think that we're in for the long haul here, it didn't change overnight in the 60s when everyone was protesting it's not going to change overnight this time. Enough is enough, it's again incredibly frustrating to see how Trump handles it and what the things that come out of his mouth are just unbelievable. But hopefully that will change in 99 days and some real positive and progressive changes will come about. I'm maintaining hope for that, I really am. And someone asked me the other day well what if he gets elected again and I don't even know, I can't even stomach a response to that yet, I just don't know. LB: Well I'm certain of that and I said you know we just have to go on that's the thing, we can't just give up and you know -- but we have to work, we have to make sure that that doesn't happen. ST: Agreed. LB: So you've already talked about being worried about getting the virus and taking a lot of precautions to avoid that. What's the best thing that you've really experienced so far, what's giving you hope now, and I think you were talking a little bit about young people marching, that's one of the things that gives me hope. ST: Yes, I think I'm realizing that there's more channels to communicate with each other. Seeing the global pollution go down has been something I've been -- you know a positive aspect I've been trying to focus on. I do try to kind of be the glass half full, it's hard for me. I think inherently I'm a pessimist and skeptic and maybe even a little negative, so I try to reprogram myself every day and really focus on the positive aspects of everything that's happening. So one of the best things that happened was in the beginning when I was home more, I've worked every day since I was like fourteen so even through cancer treatment I was working, I didn't take any time off for that, looking back what the hell I had the opportunity. But I just have always worked really hard and at the beginning of the lockdown when I was mostly just answering the phones at home I got to stay home more, and I wish I could say that like oh I drafted a book or I wrote a business plan and I got in shape but I've gained so much weight. We made, I lost count of how many like trays of rice crispy treats we made and just like we were doing so well like in February we bought an elliptical and we were on it every day and we were doing the app where you count your calories and all that and we were like losing weight and just like boom, like ripped out from under us. And it was just like I wish I could say I was that person that took this opportunity to like I don't know do something great but it's hard, there's so much uncertainty and it's so scary and I'm just glad that I'm alive I don't care if I weigh a little bit more than I did, whatever I'm alive and I think, uh, it was great at first to spend some more time at home. I got like some cleaning and organizing, and craft projects done that I never had the time for, but I certainly didn't like probably utilize it all to my best ability. But whatever. LB: [Linda Khan?], who they had a PFLAG for many years and she's a good friend of ours and she said you know I just wanted to have, I was always hoping that sometime I would just have time at home so I could give this series of projects done and I found out that if I had time at home I wouldn't do the projects anyway. I didn't do them, so I'm not that into it she said. It was not true, you know, so yeah, I don't know we've been doing a lot of gardening. I think that's been a positive thing. But you've been working the whole time, almost the whole time. ST: Yes, I was so I should be a little easy on myself. I did have like this massive checklist and I'm a checklist person I have checklists every day. There was one in the kitchen that was like quarantine projects. You know so that it can loom over me every time I go get more rice crispy treats and put added pressure to me that I don't freaking need. But it was there we got some things done and the other things you know whatever they'll get done sometime. LB: Well I think that's a really good and refreshing attitude to have, I think that it's brilliant so good for you for doing that. Have you had an opportunity to sort of like work into a regime of some kind of exercise, I just talked to somebody who said I don't go out of the house at all, and it was a young person and they said there's a -- they ended up being stuck in a place where they couldn't go home so they had to stay at somebody's family's house from college and then the family left so they're by themselves and I said if you've been like -- and they're in the woods and I said have you been going outside and he said, "No there's a bear, I'm not going out, what are you crazy, I'm not going out." So I thought that was really funny. ST: I am not built for this hot hot weather we've been having lately. I'm not a hot weather person, so I don't I try not to go outside either. We bought this house last year and there's an above ground pool, so we hang out in there a lot, that's about the extent of the exercise I'm getting. But I'm not swimming, I'm floating. LB: Water just it absorbs stuff so that would work. Well it's tricky. I have a bicycle desk and I've been using my bicycle pretty much when I'm on Zoom meetings that are boring. But if I have to be, I'm not on it now because all the interviews have been fascinating for me. I've got to tell you they've been fascinating, but sometimes there will be a Zoom meeting, a lot of the work meetings that we had to do and I'd be like on my desk, talking to somebody who is on one of those big bouncy ball things. ST: Yeah, you can see them kind of bobbing the whole time. LB: I thought that was great actually I thought like you know what the heck, so they were getting out of it and I thought that was a terrific thing. So it sounds like you're doing pretty well with your mental health, this actually says how would you describe your mental health right now. What do you think about that? ST: I think I was way more sporadic than normal, I feel like I'm pretty even keel most of the time, like middle of the road, I don't let bad things like really ruin my day unless it's like a catastrophe. But I would find like I never knew how I was going to wake up. There were days I would jump out of bed and you know knock out four of those quarantine projects on the checklist before 9 a.m. and it was great and then like the very next day I'd be like today we'll just stay in bed and watch these damn lesbian movies all day because I don't want to get out of bed and that was weird for me, I was aware of it though, which I think is important. I was very aware of like okay I don't feel like conquering the world today and that's okay, I'm going to let myself have this day of rest. Because I'll usually beat myself up if I'm not like gung ho. But it was just god you couldn't escape it either, I mean I guess you could, but it was like Facebook and there's so much that they didn't know. I was actually -- I had a big box of masks that I still had from when I was going through chemo because when your cell counts are low you know you have to mask up to go in public. So I wore masks before it was cool, no but I was probably one of the first people going to the grocery store with a mask on and got a lot of weird looks from people and it was funny like as the weeks ticked by then it was like you'd see more and more people and I'd shoot them like a -- no I didn't, it was interesting to see the progression because of course at first they said well we think people should have them, but it's because they learned more about the virus so they learned that yes this is a good thing so that was interesting. I was a little high strung at first, I was doing the whole sanitizing all of the groceries because they said it was like living on surfaces we didn't know. LB: So we're pretty much not doing that as much anymore is that true because I think we're still doing a little bit. ST: I definitely do a little bit, we -- my wife used to absolutely love food shopping, and I never really liked it and now we just we've used Instacart a lot, we're lucky to be able to do that but it's just I don't it's going there gives us so much anxiety. At the peak in April I took like half of my paycheck, we planned out meals for 14 days and we're like we're going to make a big batch of like -- we're vegetarian, we're going to make a big batch of veggie lasagna then we'll use it and we figured out like all right we're going to spend this much money and we're going to do two weeks of food shopping. So I went and my cart was overflowing like I looked like that crazy person in the grocery store. But it wasn't overflowing with like toilet paper I wasn't like hoarding stuff, and the cashier gave me the dirtiest look she was like oh, and I'm like this is what people should be doing so that you only have to check us out one time in two weeks and I'm saving you like but anyway, got home with all that stuff and had to wipe it all down and it was like a three and a half hour ordeal I was exhausted. I was like I hate this and of course you know you say like I want things to go back to normal and this is unfair but it's okay to have temper tantrums some days I certainly have. LB: Trish is a wonderful cook and one of her -- you know we are so lucky anybody that has a job, anybody that has a house, anybody that doesn't have to work in a place where they're constantly being really really at risk for nothing like waitresses that I know people that are servers that have to be at risk to the point where they're and they're not paid enough to make this worthwhile. And then threatened you know well yeah ; we're not wearing these masks but if you have a problem with it you can just resign and then you won't get unemployment. But Trish, a frustration that she has realized and she always kind of knew this but she's very very frugal, we live very frugally and yet she makes wonderful food, and that was all predicated on her ability to buy bargains and go to the places where she just said if I could go to the farmer's market now I would be getting those big flats of strawberries and then I could can the strawberry jelly and I can't believe I can't do that, I could get a whole flat for ten dollars. I would be putting the blueberries away so we'd have blueberry crumble in the winter, and I can't get out. She's realizing that that is actually our biggest expense is that she cannot buy food that is economical, we can't go to the farmer's market when the sales are on because they're just not careful there at all and she's a very high risk too she has lupus actually. So has had it all the time that we've been together all the 30 years that we've been together and she has to be very very careful. We have not been out, we haven't taken any -- well we were driving back from an appointment, we were at the doctor's appointment and we were driving back and we went by Produce Mart and I said go in there because we have our masks and we could go in there. And she said I can't go in there ; I can't count on it to be the way we need it to be and it will just be frustrating. And we have a young person who has actually had the virus and then was tested by Lehigh Valley Health network and has very high antibodies. So she shops for us. We don't even have to feel negative about it, but she still can't do the bargains, can't look at the stuff and go well this would be good and then if I buy this and this, I can make this. It is killing Trish that this is happening. ST: I think that's with Sarah like too she would go and maybe be inspired by something that she would see and make this whole meal around it and now it's like and you know they never get the bananas right, it's like no matter what it's -- one time we had a mishap last week she ordered like five bananas but they registered it as five bunches and she's trying to like you can message the person while they're shopping she's like no, no, no please don't bring us 11 pounds of bananas and she was able to get it corrected. But I said to her yesterday or the day before we Instacarted again I said when are we going to go back to the grocery store. Like we'll run in for quick things, you know, one or two items, but partially it's kind of being spoiled now, you know, I like having them deliver to the front door if I could just get them to come in and put them away that'd be awesome. But it's just also it's I realized even driving to the grocery store you start to realize like your shoulders are up around your ears and you're like wow this is really causing me a lot of distress, why you know I'll pay the delivery fee to have this luxury. LB: We just went out ; we haven't been out in probably two weeks and we've really only been out together to go to doctor's appointments. So we went to a doctor's appointment today, we're coming back and every single person that we saw we made a comment on whether or not they were wearing a mask and it drives you nuts. You know you're like oh those people are wearing a mask, that guys wearing a mask, the whole way and you know one of the things we did see was rush hour and it was -- when we were coming back and we were coming back from Whitehall so it was right on 145 and that's a major route and I said boy this is half the traffic you would normally see, people are at home, they are really, we were looking at shopping, all those shopping places there and grocery stores and they just didn't have the one car in the gas station, there was just clearly nothing happening, really this is affecting the economy and yes it's not going to stop. I mean I just asked somebody earlier today about what was giving that person, giving him help and he said that he is watching every single science based thing about the vaccines. And that's what's giving me the hope because they're on the third trial of a vaccine now that they still think is very promising. So because the way Americans are, we're really a bunch of assholes and so we can't be like England where they just, everybody locked down, nobody left the house for 90 days and it went away and now they have life. ST: I remember first hearing about China and seeing videos where the government or health officials were posting these giant speakers on street corners and it was saying like do not come out of your house and they were only letting people like on Thursdays go grocery shopping and I thought oh my god this is, they're insane over there. And now I'm like oh my god I wish our fucking government was as insane as well. I just didn't realize the magnitude of it at that point, we got no direction though we were like wear a mask if you want whatever. LB: We've seen reports from scientists that have said bone fide reports that if every person in the United States wore a mask for three months it would be over. ST: Yeah wear it properly. LB: Right actually not just -- and if that happened it would be a done deal and yeah if we'd had the leadership to do that and said look I'm sorry I know this is tough for you but if we don't do this we'll hurt the economy kids won't be able to go back to school. Well, we really didn't have that leadership. ST: Are you in your Covid interviews? Do you have any educators or teachers that you're interviewing? LB: No, I talked to somebody who was a retired teacher who has a lot of teacher friends and he was very strong about saying it's just ridiculous and he gave me so many interesting little insights into it. One of the things he said was in the Allentown School District, he was a music teacher so he worked in every single school, and he said in the Allentown School District in September it is so hot many of the schools are not air conditioned, what they do is they take -- so he said they're talking to me about having smaller classes what they do when it's hot like that is they take all the kids and they put them in a big air conditioned auditorium. He said what are they going to do, we're going to leave the kids in the 99 degree temperature and who are they-- ST: No way. LB: New kids have to be in there, but these kids can be in the cool area. He said there's just no way they're going to do that and then he named three or four other things where he said it is just not going to work, you cannot keep these kids from getting kids, sick from everything else. I talked to a number of college educators and one of the people that I know very well who works at Muhlenberg was saying we cannot, you know kids who are young people who are students on college campuses get sick, it happens all the time. You know you can have mono everybody gets mono, everybody gets the flu, it happens all the time. And people get colds and part of the whole experience of going to college is that communal interaction, you're with people all the time, in fact I was just talking to somebody who just graduated today and he was saying you know I haven't seen my friends as much I can only see them on Zoom. And I said you know on the day I graduated from college I had a really good friend that I had seen every single day of college who was still one of my best friends, I just talked to her and stuff, but I didn't see her face to face for ten years after that day. And I said the fact that you have Zoom and you can see -- because she lived in -- she moved to New Orleans and I was living in New York State and it's just like I didn't see her. I talked to her but I didn't see her. And I said the fact that you can see your friends when you leave college, that's what happens if you're not in that communal situation. If you're missing out on that communal situation of all that sharing and being around people that are different that you've never been around a person that was like that before, you begin to have new attitudes and ideas, your family is conservative and you change, your family has only spoken one language and then you see oh there's people that speak all the different -- if you lose that in a college situation it is devastating and yet you cannot stop kids from getting sick in college if they're all in dorms. It's just not going to work, it's like a nursing home, it's not going to work, and everybody has said that. And one professor was saying to me, she was an administrator actually and she said they think they're going to open this college but the staff and the faculty are not going to allow it to open, because it's too dangerous for the faculty and what they've said is it's unethical to do. ST: It really is, you're already asking so much of teachers, now this, and what is your plan and again it's like every district is left to their own devices well you guys write the policy and you figure out what the plan when a teacher gets sick or a student gets sick, but there's also HIPAA laws and what. There's no direction from the top down and I just feel for them, I feel for every parent, you know, we don't have children but definitely our friends do and talking to them through this it's like they're so torn it's like oh my gosh my kid needs to go to school, I need to get back to my job, they need the socialization, but germs. What the hell do you do? It's awful. LB: And there's even that other level of the idea that we're seeing that poor school districts like the school district in the city of Allentown where people don't even really have access to the internet much less having a computer. They don't even have the internet in their home, we don't have a grid here, and what they're talking about is like in cities like this or cities like Easton and Bethlehem they need to make the entire city be a grid and then the payment to be able to get into -- and just have like you never get a password who is in school so that they can be on the internet and then you can get them inexpensive computers and you can do that. But right now kids who are in the Parkland School District are having no problem being able to do lessons and classes and Zoom classes and stuff. But kids who are in Allentown who in some ways need this education more they don't all speak English, they're American citizens, they don't all speak English, they need this, they don't have their family. Their families are essential workers so they're home alone. You know that has to really be-- ST: But the unexpected ripple effects of this you know the more people that you talk to and it sounds like you -- you know you get to talk to all these people with these interviews and things are sprouting up that you wouldn't even think. One of my friends works in the parks system so when this first happened the shutdown everybody's like let's get back to nature and it was March, April, it was great weather so like the first or second weekend there were like seven forest fires not like raging forest fires but there were seven fires in our parks system that had to go be extinguished because it's like people that never go out into nature are suddenly out there, you know, tossing their cigarette butts or whatever and I was like wow what an unintended ripple coming out of this and there's so many of them out there, and there's so many that will continue to happen, there's so many we haven't even identified yet. It's just -- it's a really interesting part of history, I'd rather not have lived for it, but you know let it happen in another hundred years but here we are getting through it. LB: It will be a thing to see if indeed people like for example well we can't afford to pay kids you know we can't afford to pay for kids to have education and suddenly we have a trillion dollars to line everybody's pockets, a trillion dollars is so much money that that would mean every single person in the entire Lehigh Valley could have two million dollars for children, you know. ST: For us to get like a half hour bump on the stock market that was fun right. Couldn't have spent that money better. LB: And yet you know they'll say like well there's not enough money to have universal health care, because if we'd had universal health care that would have been another thing that would have kept people from getting sick, because people went to work because they couldn't go to the doctor, they didn't have health care and stuff, they were afraid to lose-- ST: And they infected other people, yes. LB: So, yeah, well this has been a wonderful conversation, I'm so glad to get to talk to you, what a good time. We'd love to stop by on Zoom at your bar. ST: We've got to hash out the happy hour specials I'll let you know. LB: Tell people what happy hour special it is so that they could bring it to their Zoom. Their own concoction as a mocktail or something. But it would be really interesting to hear what it ends up to be that is your perfect lesbian movie. ST: Yes, well we haven't found it yet. So far, you know, we do like Carol, we got really [ into the Gentleman Jack series on HBO that wasn't a movie but we dressed up like Anne and Ann and we're Sarah and Sarah so we dressed up as them for Halloween and I contacted [Shibden?] Hall and had them put little signs around that was like Sarah's love for you is so strong it can be felt at Shibden Hall, so I did that for my wife. But we are absolutely obsessed with that series so if they could like -- and that's another thing they can't film the next season because of Covid of all the things that are going on that's the most devastating. LB: Are we privileged or what but boy I feel that way too and I actually studied all about Anne Lister I was going to do a whole art history program about her for lesbian visibility day and how brilliant she was and all the problematic things about her and it's such a fascinating thing. That you know they actually had well I'm sure you would know this but they had intimacy coaches to be able to tell them how to make out with each other and how to touch each other and stuff so that it would make more sense and it wouldn't look fake. ST: The theories oh my gosh, no I didn't know that. LB: This is what you should you know because these women are not lesbians, they were saying like you know you have all sorts of coaches for different kinds of movements in movies and stuff. ST: That is so funny. LB: Fighting coaches and stuff like that so they actually said you know this is what you should do, and this is how you should move, and this is the look you have. It is a brilliant series, it's the second, we don't have Hulu, so we sort of latched onto our friend's but it's the second series now, is it the second season? ST: Yes, there were two seasons and now the third one is postponed. So I think or was it one season. LB: I thought it was kind of sad actually so you know. ST: Well we read her, Sarah read her actual diary too and then like you know I never have time, so she gave me the Cliff Notes, but her medical treatment from her diaries was horrible. So I don't know if they'll touch on any of that I doubt it. LB: Fascinating thing but you'll never have time to do but Shibden Hall has a thing that's called Lister Sisters and Michelle Meecham I don't know she lives in our community I don't know if you know her, she also has a whole outfit, a whole Anne Lister, she was at the pride festival dressed as Anne Lister. She wears that ring and everything and she looks -- she became a Lister Sister because you know despite thousands or no it's five million words, she wrote five million words, well they haven't all been decoded. They get people who are known as Lister Sisters and they teach them how to decode it and then they give them pages and they write, they decode it. ST: I have the legend of like her handwriting I think it's saved on my phone, so I was going to like write -- I'll start writing to Sarah in that code, she'll be like what the hell is this. Grocery list, surprise. LB: But you have to know all those math symbols and everything, and actually the actors in that are just, they're so incredibly great the women are so great. I love that you're into that especially since Harry Potter is dead to us, so you know. ST: I was never a fan anyway. LB: I liked it but I'm past it now, I knew a lot of trans people who loved it and it's over such a shame. So good for Anne Lister for keeping us amused. Thank you again so much for talking to me. ST: Absolutely, it was fun. LB: When the transcript is all done, they'll send you the thing and you can look it over and see if there's anything that you say oh, I didn't mean to say that. But I don't think you'll find that, I thought this was wonderful and it was very different than a lot of other people I've been talking about. Each person has such a different insight into that, and this is significantly different because of your working in the hospitality industry so to speak and it's very helpful. So thank you very much for doing that. ST: Absolutely, thank you for thinking of me for the project I'm excited. LB: We're very lucky that we have this archive because Trish and I saved tons and tons and tons of papers over the last twenty-five years that we've been doing this and we're like what are we going to do with this stuff. And now it's digitized, it's all-- ST: Yes, incredible. LB: We're very lucky and we own it, the center owns it, but Muhlenberg is maintaining it so we've very lucky. Anyway thank you very much, keep up the good work, stay safe. ST: I will you too. LB: All that kind of stuff and we'll keep our fingers crossed for November well ninety-nine days, ninety-nine days on the wall. ST: All right thank you, bye. END OF VIDEO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). 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01:15:26
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Sarah Trimmer, July 27, 2020
Description
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Sarah Trimmer talks about how the current COVID-19 pandemic is affecting her, her essential worker job managing a bed and breakfast in South City Bethlehem, and her concern about the virus because she is at high risk as a breast cancer survivor. She also discusses how she and her wife have replaced new entertainment interests for things they regularly did before the virus.
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PH40_30
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
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2020-07-27
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
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In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Liz Bradbury
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Ian Wagner
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5.4 July 7, 2020 Ian Wagner, July 9, 2020 PH40_29 00:56:26 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Ian Wagner Liz Bradbury video/mpeg WagnerIan_20200709_video.mp4 1.0:|1385(5) 0 https://youtu.be/gj2WoluJDTE YouTube video 0 Interview Introduction LIZ BRADBURY: -- record on this computer. I’m also going to do an audio recording because I did one last week for the HIV/AIDS ones that we’re doing for people who were around during the AIDS epidemic, and I did ten people, and one of the people I was doing didn’t record it right. She had stopped it, I had to stop it because we lost a connection for her. And I pressed resume but on Zoom resume does not mean resume. It means you resume to the opportunity to record again. (laughs) So, then you have to press record again. So, luckily I had an audio recording of her. And her camera, her video recording camera was really bad anyways, so I felt ever more exonerated because I didn’t mess it up. Can you hear me okay?
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 ; IAN WAGNER: Yes, I can, how about me? 
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 ; LB: You sound great. We are recording and I’m going to read you the stuff here. And it says -- let’s see, turn off phone. I think my phone is already off. Yes, it is. And I’m recording, I’ve got the audio, I’ve got the video, okay. I have to pin you. Wait a minute. I have to do the pin thing. Whoops, no, I want to pin video on you. That’s not right.
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 ; IW: Don’t you love when you have technical difficulties? 0 297 Finishing up clinical counseling degree online/Counseling people through Zoom LB: Let me ask you first, in the place -- well, so, you’re working now? You’re working online? We’ll just talk about that. 
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 ; IW: Yes, I am. I actually just obtained my master’s degree in clinical counseling. So, I was in my internship when all of this started back in March. I actually finished school during COVID. And I did my internship and practicum with Pinebrook Family Answers where I still am today. I’m actually in the middle of transferring from there to Holcomb, I just obtained a position as a counselor with them. 
 ; 0 444 Experience living with roommates during the pandemic LB: You’re working in this house in New Tripoli. And who else is in the house with you? You’re not all by yourself? 
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 ; IW: No, I’m with my roommate Rachel Zane and her daughter Sarah Zane. 
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 ; LB: It’s lucky that you have other people there because when you’re with other people it’s easier. Do you think it’s easier? 0 528 Securing a job in the middle of the pandemic/House protocols for going back to in-person work LB: When you graduated right in the middle of this, were you afraid it would be hard to get a job? 
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 ; IW: Not really. Just because I already had an offer from Pinebrook so, at least I was okay there. And I do still work full-time as a support coordinator for service, access, and management, so thankfully as far as work that wasn’t a concern. And I realize I’m incredibly blessed because what I do with the social work and the counseling it’s able to go virtual and I can still work full-time. Like I didn’t get affected as far as employment. Which I know a lot of people were, so I consider myself lucky on that stance. 0 731 Communicating digitally during the pandemic LB: So, there’s questions here about if you’re doing communicating by phone or online for work, but what about socially? Are you doing that for socially? You have friends that you’re talking to that way too, or what do you think? 
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 ; IW: Yeah. I have used Facetime more than I probably ever have, and Zoom, and Skype. Something me and a couple of friends are doing is we enjoy Broadway, and of course, that’s been closed down. So, there’s this app, which I’m forgetting right now, but it’s Broadway World, I don’t know, I forget it. But we’re using that to watch Broadway shows that have been previously recorded. 0 841 Concerns about the pandemic LB: What’s your biggest concern? In terms of the whole world and what’s happening, what’s the stuff that’s really concerning you most with regard to this virus? 
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 ; IW: In regards to COVID-19? 
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 ; LB: Yeah.
 ; 0 909 Knowing of someone who has died from Covid-19 LB: Do you know anybody who’s had it? 
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 ; IW: Not really. There was a classmate of mine from high school who I’ve lost touch with since high school, but unfortunately he did pass away due to COVID-19. Which was really a hit to home for me because this guy was my age, perfect health, was an athlete back in high school, and he got sick and unfortunately passed away. So, it was that thing where I knew it didn’t really matter my age, but that was a yeah, it doesn’t matter, this is someone you know, and -- 
 ; 0 972 Thoughts on Dr. Rachel Levine LB: So, we really would love to know, one of the things that I think we’re all concerned about, or at least people you and I know, are very concerned about the lack of federal leadership, let’s put it that way. (laughs)
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 ; IW: Okay, let’s put it that way.
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 ; LB: But one of the things that we have in common is that we have some pretty great leadership in the state. And Dr. Rachel Levine has been really for me a mainstay, I’ve felt a lot of comfort. How do you feel about when you see her? Have you seen her when she’s talking about stuff? (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible)
 ; 0 1044 Fears and frustrations regarding pandemic/Counseled patients' experience with the pandemic LB: There are fears in terms of -- that you have about that kind of stuff too. Because -- what do you think would happen if you got it? 
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 ; IW: I have thought about that. I don’t know. I mean, just hope and pray that the treatment they give me in a hospital would work and I would pull through. For my loved ones, I would hope I would find out as soon as possible so I can either be isolated or put into a hospital where I can’t affect my loved ones. Honestly that’s probably my biggest fear is not so much me getting it. Like, I obviously don’t want it, but getting it and affecting those around me. 
 ; 0 1189 Use of queer dating sites or hookup apps during the pandemic/Pandemic affecting dating life LB: We have some things on this list of questions and one of them is, are you using any queer dating sites or hookup apps? 
 ; 
 ; IW: You know what? No, right now no. I don’t understand why anyone would be because then you would want to go meet that person, again, you don’t know who they’ve been around. So I see it -- I don’t understand. 
 ; 0 1255 Difficulty for counseled patients coming out during pandemic LB: You’re in a situation where you never have to worry about being out because you’re as out as can be and you live with people who are totally comfortable with you being out, they’ve always known that you are gay. But are you coming in contact with people, particularly young people since you are working with young people who are really at risk because they can’t be out to anyone because they’re at home, have you had anybody like that? 
 ; 
 ; IW: I’ve had a client like that who couldn’t come out specifically as transgender. So, that was difficult for him. And it’s a matter of, at least for me, assisting them to make sure they’re safe both physically and emotionally. And trying to give them as many tools as I can. 
 ; 0 1360 Participating in Bradbury-Sullivan programs online/Skepticism over Covid protocols switching to code green LB: Can you get to do any kind of queer activities besides just hanging out with your pals? 
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 ; IW: Just on the -- at the Center online we do some things. You recently gave (inaudible) talk, so I really enjoyed that. So, some things. I mean, other activities, no. I really am trying to stay inside as much as possible. Even now that we’re in green, I just don’t want to take any chances. 0 1440 Experience with neighbors in New Tripoli during the pandemic LB: New Tripoli is north of Allentown up in north of Lehigh or sort of on the northern end of Lehigh Valley, and it’s a little bit more rural. Are you finding that people are being more neighborly and more careful or less -- or more sort of independent or about the same as you would imagine? 
 ; 
 ; IW: I would say about the same. Like we’re so far from each other as far as like neighborly that we’re on a hi, bye, kind of status, but we don’t see each other unless you’re driving by, which a lot of us aren’t because we’re not going anywhere. 0 1523 Not feeling safe at the grocery store LB: Do you think that the stores, I mean, when you go to -- I haven’t really been to stores. We have a young person in our life who was sick, and she was in college, and she got the virus, and she was quite sick, but now she’s all better and she actually has a high level of antibodies. So, we don’t even feel guilty about making her go to the store for us because not putting herself at risk and she’s not carrying it to other people either. Which is a unique situation because we really don’t, I mean, most people that we know well haven’t gotten it because they’ve been so careful and they’ve been in and stuff. But when you go to the store, do you feel confident in the store? Do you feel like the store --
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 ; IW: Honestly, no. Just because I go to the store and I see some people where they take their mask off as soon as they get in the store, or they have it like half on with their noses out, or even like completely down so the mask is covering their chin. 0 1686 Going out besides grocery shopping during the pandemic/Counseling in person LB: Have there been any instances where you’ve had to go someplace, other places besides just getting essential food or something? 
 ; 
 ; IW: I did, actually I did just go to my office for the first time yesterday. Because, like I said, I’m switching jobs from Pinebrook Family Answers to Holcomb Behavioral Health, so there are some clients who I feel it’s my ethical duty to see them in person during this termination time because it’s difficult for some people. 0 1803 Spending less money during the pandemic LB: Do you think that you’re spending more money because you’re stuck away? Or you’re spending less?
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 ; IW: Incredibly less. 
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 ; LB: Yeah?
 ; 0 1870 More on socializing/communicating LB: Are there people that you think that you’re actually in more contact with than you have been when you were working and you had to run around and stuff?
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 ; IW: Honestly, no. I still kind of keep my little close circle, so those are the people I’m still like well now I’m Skyping and Facetiming with, whereas before I would actually be with them in person. 0 1906 Taking walks/Exercise routine changing LB: You don’t realize how much time you take commuting. And I live really close to the Center, but I walk to the Center each day which is a good forty minutes a day, which I totally save. And yet, it’s harder to get exercise. Are you finding that’s true for you? Can you go outside?
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 ; IW: I can go outside because thankfully our neighbors aren’t really close, so walking around is definitely doable. I take my little dog for a walk. But even that it’s not too far. So, yeah, exercise is definitely proving a challenge. Hopefully, maybe I’ll get back to a gym someday, who knows. 0 2114 Worries about the future LB: How worried are you about the future? What do you think about the future? 
 ; 
 ; IW: Honestly, personally I’m worried that tele-health is going to become like the new norm. Because I’m not a fan. I want to go back to the office and see my clients in person 0 2207 Sources of hope during the pandemic LB: What gives you hope now? What gives you hope now? 
 ; 
 ; IW: Good question. What gives me hope now is I tend to be an optimist. Kind of a glass half full guy instead of half empty. Yes, I try to be realistic and look at the world and see what’s going on, but my hope is looking at my friends and my family, and other people who are doing, in my opinion, the right thing as far as like remaining social distance and washing your hands and mask and everything. It shows me like okay, look, there are people out there who are doing the right thing and maybe we are putting a curb on this infection, on this disease. That gives me hope is people. And we tend to be resilient, which I really love. Especially in the LGBT+ community, for us this is not our first pandemic 0 2448 Attending Kutztown University during the pandemic/Using and learning digital collaborative platforms LB: Where did you get your graduate degree? 
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 ; IW: Kutztown University. 
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 ; LB: Did you have to go to Kutztown for that? Did you have to take classes online at the end? 
 ; 0 2706 Best aspect of pandemic life LB: What’s the best thing out of this that you’ve done? 
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 ; IW: Again I think learning new things. I led a very busy lifestyle before, again, with school, and I basically had two jobs between my internship and my full-time job. So, now, I was able to learn new things like I’m one of those people who probably in other interviews have said this, I’ve learned how to bake. 0 2764 Thoughts on Black Lives Matter LB: So, a lot of things have been happening and at the same time, certainly a lot of political things that we’re all very concerned about, and the tangential things to those or the products of those that have to do with instances of discrimination, and rights, and for our community, and for all communities. And also, certainly, some very serious things with regard to Black Lives Matter, and the circumstance of racism, and the awareness of racism in the United States. Do you want to talk about that? How has that affected you? 
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 ; IW: Honestly it affected me very personally. I’m a black male and I have had to look deep within myself on how I feel about the situation. Personally growing up I never really had to deal with racism. 0 3132 Thoughts for the future LB: So, we’re coming to the end I think. So, I just want to ask you if there is anything else that you think someday somebody in the future is going to look at this and I think, I hope, that will be the case. And it might be in the near future, it might be many, many years, it might be decades, we might be all gone by them. 0 3329 Conclusion LB: Thank you so much for this. I really am very, very grateful for this opportunity to talk to you. It’s fun to talk to you. I love the room that you’re in. 
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 ; IW: Yeah, my new office while all this is happening.
 ; 0 MovingImage Ian Wagner talks about the current COVID-19 is affecting him, his friends and family, and the people he lives with, his work as a therapist and not being able to see clients face to face and his new job, how it is affecting LGBTQ people, Black Lives Matter issues, community leadership, learning to bake, and what gives him hope. Ian Wagner 2020-07-09 LIZ BRADBURY: -- record on this computer. I'm also going to do an audio recording because I did one last week for the HIV/AIDS ones that we're doing for people who were around during the AIDS epidemic, and I did ten people, and one of the people I was doing didn't record it right. She had stopped it, I had to stop it because we lost a connection for her. And I pressed resume but on Zoom resume does not mean resume. It means you resume to the opportunity to record again. (laughs) So, then you have to press record again. So, luckily I had an audio recording of her. And her camera, her video recording camera was really bad anyways, so I felt ever more exonerated because I didn't mess it up. Can you hear me okay? IAN WAGNER: Yes, I can, how about me? LB: You sound great. We are recording and I'm going to read you the stuff here. And it says -- let's see, turn off phone. I think my phone is already off. Yes, it is. And I'm recording, I've got the audio, I've got the video, okay. I have to pin you. Wait a minute. I have to do the pin thing. Whoops, no, I want to pin video on you. That's not right. IW: Don't you love when you have technical difficulties? LB: I think I may have messed up the whole thing before. Who am I seeing now? I want to pin it on you. Unpinned. No, you're pinned. Okay, you're good. Wait, unpin video. Pin you, pin video on you. Yes, good, okay, that's right. So, now, you're pinned. Okay, I've got it. Now I've got to read you this stuff. With this project Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center at the Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury and I'm here with Ian Wagner to talk about his experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of the COVID-19 pandemic as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us. Oh, I was supposed to give the date of this interview. The date is Thursday July 9th, 2020. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start, can you please state your full name and spell it for me? IW: Ian Wagner, Ian, I-A-N as in Nancy, Wagner, W-A-G-N-E-R. LB: Great. And can you please share your birth date? IW: June 29th, 1988. LB: Great. And what town are you in? IW: New Tripoli. LB: Okay, because we have to put that. Now this is the consent part, so, do you consent to this video for us to -- no, do you consent to this interview today? IW: I do. LB: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made available publically online in digital formats? IW: Yes, I do. LB: Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for education purposes in other formats including films, articles, websites, presentations, and other formats? IW: Yes, I do. LB: Do you understand that you will have 30 days after the electronic delivery of this transcript to review your interview and identify any parts you would like to delete and/or withdraw from the -- or you could actually withdraw the entire interview, if you choose, from the project? IW: I do. LB: Good. Okay, so we're going to start out by just a couple of things. What is your zip code where you live? IW: 18066. LB: And what is your age? IW: Thirty-two. LB: How do you identify within the LGBT community? Sexual orientation, gender, identity, anything you want to say with regard to that. IW: I am a gay cis male. LB: Here are some things -- so, this is about the different things. And, you know, there's a lot of different questions on here, I hope you had a chance to look at those. But we don't have to hit every one of those things, so it's just general stuff. Let me ask you first, in the place -- well, so, you're working now? You're working online? We'll just talk about that. IW: Yes, I am. I actually just obtained my master's degree in clinical counseling. So, I was in my internship when all of this started back in March. I actually finished school during COVID. And I did my internship and practicum with Pinebrook Family Answers where I still am today. I'm actually in the middle of transferring from there to Holcomb, I just obtained a position as a counselor with them. LB: Great. And you're doing that from home now? IW: Yes. LB: That is counseling people and it's sort of on Zoom stuff. IW: Yeah, we use a special Microsoft Teams because it's HIPAA compliant. LB: I see. Normally, if you were not, if it wasn't the COVID-19 circumstance, would you be seeing these people in person? IW: Yes, I would be going to the Pinebrook office and have the sessions there. LB: And how's it working out to have these sessions on Zoom? What do you think about that? IW: They work for some people and they don't work for, my caseload, most people. Yeah, just because one, I have a couple of kids, so, it's hard to keep them focused when they're not in a room with you and getting to actually participate with them. They have toys around them in their home, they have other distractions, so it's hard to get them to really participate in the counseling session. Some adults have issues with anxiety, so no matter how much I explain that Microsoft Teams is HIPAA compliant, they just don't feel comfortable discussing personal things over the phone or even over the app. So, I find in person counseling to be best. And I hope to get back there one day. LB: Yeah. Have you had anybody that liked it better? IW: I do. I have one person and that's because they live in Wind Gap, so it avoids the travel for them. So, this has actually been beneficial for that client. LB: Yeah, Wind Gap is really far. IW: Yeah. LB: You're working in this house in New Tripoli. And who else is in the house with you? You're not all by yourself? IW: No, I'm with my roommate Rachel Zane and her daughter Sarah Zane. LB: It's lucky that you have other people there because when you're with other people it's easier. Do you think it's easier? IW: I do actually. The house is a decent size so we are able to not be on top of each other throughout this entire thing. We basically each kind of have our own floors because Sarah's bedroom is on the first floor, Rachel's is on the third, and I'm actually in the basement with my own entrance and everything. So, it works out pretty good. LB: Yeah, that does work out good. Would you think that it would be -- what do you think it would be like if you were all by yourself? Or would you like it better? IW: No, I think I have the best of it right now. Because I think if I was alone I would eventually get lonely and then it's like ugh, who do I invite over because who have they been around, do I want to go outside. So, at least with them here I know where they've been and again, we don't really step on each other. So, if I want my alone time I just go to my room and that's fine. LB: When you graduated right in the middle of this, were you afraid it would be hard to get a job? IW: Not really. Just because I already had an offer from Pinebrook so, at least I was okay there. And I do still work full-time as a support coordinator for service, access, and management, so thankfully as far as work that wasn't a concern. And I realize I'm incredibly blessed because what I do with the social work and the counseling it's able to go virtual and I can still work full-time. Like I didn't get affected as far as employment. Which I know a lot of people were, so I consider myself lucky on that stance. LB: Are the other people in the house, in your house sort of in that same situation? I kind of know the answer to this but, people who are watching this may not. And remember people may be watching this that are thirty years from now. So, it will be really an interesting time capsule to explain to people because some people might not understand the circumstances of what's really happening now. IW: Yeah, for all I know, maybe tele-health will be the norm and they'll be like, he went to the office, why? LB: (laughs) Really? Rachel's a teacher and of course it's the summer. IW: Yeah, so that worked out perfectly. Again, I mean obviously COVID-19 is horrible, but as far as when it occurred for us it happened in March, so she only had a couple of more months. So, she did teach online for a little bit, but now here we are in the summer so she would have been off anyway. LB: Right. IW: And Sarah is still in school. She goes to Northampton Community College. So, she's just taking classes online. Which she doesn't like. She's a more -- just like me, I did not like online classes, I avoided them like the plague, I like to go to the class. So, it's a little difficult for her. LB: Yeah. I mean, I don't even know if this is on the list but I'm fascinated because I'm sure you're all in the house considering this, that if Rachel has to go -- what do you think is going to happen? Some states are requiring teachers to go back to work even though it's incredibly dangerous, particularly in Florida, for example. IW: Yes. We've talked about that. Especially since I believe for my clients, some of them need to do the in person counseling. So, we've had that discussion like if they lift it and I'm able to go to the office, for some clients I would want to go to the office. So, basically all we can do, considering that we both work in basically a humanistic profession, her being a teacher, me being a counselor, that we would just have to do the best we can as far as obviously remembering to wash our hands, we have our own masks, I keep extra masks in the car just in case I walk out of the house and forget mine, and in case I come across someone who needs one I can give them one. And when I get home, if I -- because we have to go to the store and stuff like that, so, on the rare occasions that happens, we come home, we immediately throw our clothes in the washer, and we take a shower. So, we try to be as careful as we can. LB: So, there's questions here about if you're doing communicating by phone or online for work, but what about socially? Are you doing that for socially? You have friends that you're talking to that way too, or what do you think? IW: Yeah. I have used Facetime more than I probably ever have, and Zoom, and Skype. Something me and a couple of friends are doing is we enjoy Broadway, and of course, that's been closed down. So, there's this app, which I'm forgetting right now, but it's Broadway World, I don't know, I forget it. But we're using that to watch Broadway shows that have been previously recorded. LB: Oh cool. IW: What we do is we set up our laptops, phones, whatever we're using, and we press play at the same time so we're watching the show at the same time together just in different houses. Yeah, it's been really nice. We still get to socialize and talk about it and still remain safe as far as social distancing. LB: And then you're like on the phone talking about it while you're watching it. IW: Yeah. So, like I set up my iPad so it will be facing me and I'm watching the TV, so I can look down and at them, and be like oh my god, did you see that. LB: That's great. That's a great idea. That's really smart. Trish and I have been watching opera at the Metropolitan Opera on a really big screen, we have a really big screen here. IW: Yeah, I need to get a bigger screen. LB: Well, it's the screen -- we don't have TV, but it's the screen I use at the community center and then I project it with my projector through my computer. So, it's an enormous thing that was really interesting. What's your biggest concern? In terms of the whole world and what's happening, what's the stuff that's really concerning you most with regard to this virus? IW: In regards to COVID-19? LB: Yeah. IW: I am concerned that we're going to be in green too soon, we're already in green. And people being home for so long are going to let their guards down and go to places like the beach, the park, and wearing a mask is uncomfortable. At least I find it uncomfortable. So, they may like put it down so their nose is out or something. And I just -- without a vaccination or proper treatment yet, I think it's really dangerous for people to still come together in large groups. LB: Do you know people who are doing that? IW: Not personally, but I see it online and stuff like that. LB: It's funny that I really don't know anybody that's doing it, but I do see it online. And I'm glad that I don't have to yell at my own friends. IW: Exactly. LB: Do you know anybody who's had it? IW: Not really. There was a classmate of mine from high school who I've lost touch with since high school, but unfortunately he did pass away due to COVID-19. Which was really a hit to home for me because this guy was my age, perfect health, was an athlete back in high school, and he got sick and unfortunately passed away. So, it was that thing where I knew it didn't really matter my age, but that was a yeah, it doesn't matter, this is someone you know, and -- LB: Was he in the area? IW: Yeah. LB: Wow. Was he doing something like in an essential services situation? Was he a healthcare worker? Because a lot of healthcare workers -- IW: No, not to my knowledge. Again, we lost track. LB: Yeah. So, we really would love to know, one of the things that I think we're all concerned about, or at least people you and I know, are very concerned about the lack of federal leadership, let's put it that way. (laughs) IW: Okay, let's put it that way. LB: But one of the things that we have in common is that we have some pretty great leadership in the state. And Dr. Rachel Levine has been really for me a mainstay, I've felt a lot of comfort. How do you feel about when you see her? Have you seen her when she's talking about stuff? (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) IW: Sorry? LB: The Secretary of Health, for peoples' edification. IW: Yeah. Fortunately I was able to meet her at one point, so that was really nice. And I am always watching her when she's on TV or I search for the article if I miss something on TV. I think she's a real leader in so many ways, and I'm incredibly thankful that we have her. She's taking this pandemic seriously and is trying to protect us all and help us all as much as she can. LB: There are fears in terms of -- that you have about that kind of stuff too. Because -- what do you think would happen if you got it? IW: I have thought about that. I don't know. I mean, just hope and pray that the treatment they give me in a hospital would work and I would pull through. For my loved ones, I would hope I would find out as soon as possible so I can either be isolated or put into a hospital where I can't affect my loved ones. Honestly that's probably my biggest fear is not so much me getting it. Like, I obviously don't want it, but getting it and affecting those around me. LB: Yeah. No kidding. I mean, I think that we all have people who are at risk around us and it's very frightening, I think. I mean, to think that you could hurt someone else. IW: Especially someone you care for. LB: Yeah. It's hard to not be angry at people. It's hard to not feel anger. Anger. Have you been having a feeling -- I have a lot of feeling like that. IW: More frustration and confusion on how these people are not taking it seriously and how some people believe that it's a hoax, that it's not really happening. And quoting things like oh, more people die from the flu every year, but it's like that doesn't mitigate what's happening here right now. LB: When you're working with the people that you're seeing online, they probably, I would guess that some of them are very scared. Does that happen? IW: Yeah, some of the kids don't understand so, it's a matter of helping them to understand and seeing where they are. And some of the adults are just downright frustrated. They want to go out, some are not used to not being able to do what they want to do because they're older adults, so they haven't had to answer to anyone in a really long time. And now it's like it's almost like you're punished, like go in your room and don't come out, like you can't come out of your house. LB: It is like that. We have some things on this list of questions and one of them is, are you using any queer dating sites or hookup apps? IW: You know what? No, right now no. I don't understand why anyone would be because then you would want to go meet that person, again, you don't know who they've been around. So I see it -- I don't understand. LB: (inaudible) online dates. IW: Yeah, people are doing like Zoom dates and stuff like that. I haven't thought about it. And honestly, I haven't dated so long because of school it's not really different for me. What I do find funny was I was telling myself before all this like you graduate this coming year, after you graduate you're going to get back out there. And then COVID and it's like nope, you're staying right here, no dating for you. So, I was like okay. LB: That's true. The whole universe is stacked up against you. IW: Ian's going to be alone. LB: You're in a situation where you never have to worry about being out because you're as out as can be and you live with people who are totally comfortable with you being out, they've always known that you are gay. But are you coming in contact with people, particularly young people since you are working with young people who are really at risk because they can't be out to anyone because they're at home, have you had anybody like that? IW: I've had a client like that who couldn't come out specifically as transgender. So, that was difficult for him. And it's a matter of, at least for me, assisting them to make sure they're safe both physically and emotionally. And trying to give them as many tools as I can. LB: It's tricky. This must be new in some ways for you as a therapist or a psychotherapist that somebody's got this set of problems and by the way, I also -- IW: Exactly. LB: -- have all of this stuff. It's a new set of tools that you have to have to do something. IW: Exactly. It's like you know you're in a home where you love your loved ones, but you can't be yourself around them. So, now you have to stay there 24/7. It's very difficult, I would imagine. Like you said, thankfully I'm not in that situation where I have to hide myself. I do feel for my client. And again, I try to help them as much as possible. I've told them about the Center, about the things we're offering online, trying to let them know that they're not alone. LB: Can you get to do any kind of queer activities besides just hanging out with your pals? IW: Just on the -- at the Center online we do some things. You recently gave (inaudible) talk, so I really enjoyed that. So, some things. I mean, other activities, no. I really am trying to stay inside as much as possible. Even now that we're in green, I just don't want to take any chances. LB: It's still a huge risk. Just because we're in green. And in some ways people seem to be wearing masks way less. They certainly are in the city way less. And Trish says that the choice of green was a stupid thing to call it because it seems as though everybody is saying, just go, now you're fine, green. It's not red, it's not yellow, it's green, just go ahead. IW: It definitely has that connotation. It's like go, you're free. And that's exactly how some people are acting like they were locked up and now they're free and they're running about. And it's like yes, we're allowed to be outside more, but it doesn't mean we're safe. LB: New Tripoli is north of Allentown up in north of Lehigh or sort of on the northern end of Lehigh Valley, and it's a little bit more rural. Are you finding that people are being more neighborly and more careful or less -- or more sort of independent or about the same as you would imagine? IW: I would say about the same. Like we're so far from each other as far as like neighborly that we're on a hi, bye, kind of status, but we don't see each other unless you're driving by, which a lot of us aren't because we're not going anywhere. I personally downloaded, and I know a couple people in the neighborhood have downloaded this app called Neighbor or Neighborhood, and it's basically around your area and you can post if you do need help or something like that. So, if a person who is living alone and maybe not quite as healthy, especially physically, they can post like hey, I need some groceries. And if I feel up to it and I think, you know what, this is worth taking the risk, I can do their grocery shopping for them. It's a way for us to be exactly that, neighborly, without leaving our homes and helping out as best we can. LB: Do you think that the stores, I mean, when you go to -- I haven't really been to stores. We have a young person in our life who was sick, and she was in college, and she got the virus, and she was quite sick, but now she's all better and she actually has a high level of antibodies. So, we don't even feel guilty about making her go to the store for us because not putting herself at risk and she's not carrying it to other people either. Which is a unique situation because we really don't, I mean, most people that we know well haven't gotten it because they've been so careful and they've been in and stuff. But when you go to the store, do you feel confident in the store? Do you feel like the store --IW: Honestly, no. Just because I go to the store and I see some people where they take their mask off as soon as they get in the store, or they have it like half on with their noses out, or even like completely down so the mask is covering their chin. And I know, at least I feel, like the employees are working as hard as they can. But realistically I just don't think -- you can't wipe down everything that everyone is touching. To me it's not possible. So, if I'm touching things I'm taking a risk. So, what I personally do and I look silly doing it, but it's worked so far, I put a glove on one hand, and that's my store glove. Like I use that to touch everything. And then my other hand I don't like accidentally reach for something, it's in my pocket. And then when I get to the register, I use my clean hand to touch my wallet and all that, do my card, and the glove hand, punch in the numbers, and when I get outside I de-glove, put it in the garbage, go back to my car, I have some hand sanitizer in there. I also have this thing called CavIWipes, which we used to use at the hospital when I was a nursing assistant. So, it's really strong. I wipe down my steering wheel and my doorknob and everything like that. So, taking as many precautions as I can think of, at least. LB: Do you know anybody that -- I mean, anybody in the neighborhood or any -- you've already mentioned somebody that you know that died from it, very serious. But do you know anybody in the neighborhood that has gotten it, or people in the store? Of course, they're probably not telling. Because they're not going to tell you at the store that oh yeah, six people got it in the last time they were in here. IW: Exactly. Talk about bad for business. LB: Really. Have there been any instances where you've had to go someplace, other places besides just getting essential food or something? IW: I did, actually I did just go to my office for the first time yesterday. Because, like I said, I'm switching jobs from Pinebrook Family Answers to Holcomb Behavioral Health, so there are some clients who I feel it's my ethical duty to see them in person during this termination time because it's difficult for some people. So, I went there, but I talked to them about it beforehand, we took temperatures, they were wearing a mask, we met in my conference room so we were at a big table far apart from one another, had them wash their hands when they came in, I did the same. Again, took as many precautions as I could think of. I wiped down the table before they got there, I wiped it down after they left. Yeah, that's the only place I've been since that or this. And to my maiLBox. LB: Yeah, it's interesting that you recognize that you don't have to go many places. We've had to go to the doctor a few times and suddenly we realized that we had to register the car. So, we went in order to do that, to get the mileage on the car, it's in the garage next to the Community Center, so we drove over there in our other car. And I went to get in to turn it on and it was dead. So, I went to look at the mileage, but because it was dead, the mileage wasn't -- I couldn't see the mileage. So, I said, eh, I'll just leave it here. IW: Just leave it. Or guess. LB: Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. Do you think that you're spending more money because you're stuck away? Or you're spending less? IW: Incredibly less. LB: Yeah? IW: Yeah, because living in New Tripoli the office is in Easton. And my other job as a social worker, I was going to peoples' homes. So, I was constantly driving. I'm not spending money on gas, I'm not eating out because I'm not out. And when I do grocery shopping I'm actually using the food. I will say unfortunately sometimes when I do grocery shopping before, I was out so much that some food would get spoiled, so it was a waste of food and money. Definitely not happening anymore. I'm cooking. It's definitely less money. LB: Are people taking turns cooking in the house or are you always cooking? IW: No, we kind of just cook when we want. And thankfully so far it's kind of balanced out. LB: That's good. IW: And we cook so -- and we have leftovers, so it's really like you don't even need to cook every day. It's working out. LB: Are there people that you think that you're actually in more contact with than you have been when you were working and you had to run around and stuff? IW: Honestly, no. I still kind of keep my little close circle, so those are the people I'm still like well now I'm Skyping and Facetiming with, whereas before I would actually be with them in person. Well, actually, there is one cousin that I talk to more now. Being home more often gives me the chance of like, you know what, I haven't checked in with this person, let me do that. LB: You don't realize how much time you take commuting. And I live really close to the Center, but I walk to the Center each day which is a good forty minutes a day, which I totally save. And yet, it's harder to get exercise. Are you finding that's true for you? Can you go outside? IW: I can go outside because thankfully our neighbors aren't really close, so walking around is definitely doable. I take my little dog for a walk. But even that it's not too far. So, yeah, exercise is definitely proving a challenge. Hopefully, maybe I'll get back to a gym someday, who knows. LB: Would you normally have gone to a gym? IW: Honestly no. (laughs) My exercise is going to my clients' houses and walking to and from and all that. And a lot of standing. I would stand when I was at the office, we had those desks that rise. So, I tried to do little things like that, but I'm not a gym person to be honest. LB: I have a bicycle desk. IW: Nice, I've heard of those. LB: It's cool actually. So that like when you were watching the Broadway shows with your friends, if you were watching on a laptop, for example, you could do that and then you could ride the bicycle desk. IW: That's not a bad idea. I actually helped a client get -- it wasn't attached to a desk, but the same thing, it was on the floor and it was a bicycle. I didn't even think about that. That is the perfect idea. LB: They're actually very quiet and they're not, they don't run by power, you power them. IW: Exactly. LB: They're easy to move around and they fold up too if you don't want it in the way. But I have to say that I've had bicycle desks for about six years. And I use them all the time. It's actually a very successful thing because you are sitting around anyway. And if you have to read a lot of documents or you have to be in a really long boring meeting. IW: Yes. LB: You know what I'm saying? I do it even if it's not boring, you can pay attention. So, with our staff meetings I always do it during our staff meetings because I can perfectly pay attention and stuff like that. But people see me going like this the whole time. IW: They're like, what is she doing. LB: Yeah. IW: That's something that I'm able to do now with the counseling and when I'm calling my clients on the social work aspect, is if I'm talking to them on the phone and not be a Zoom or anything, I can actually walk around. Whereas of course in a counseling office I'm sitting there with them. But now it gives me the opportunity like I grab my cup of coffee, I have my headset on, and I'm walking around on the deck or walk around the garden. LB: Well, there you go, you've got that going for you. IW: Because sometimes you just want to get out and stop looking at the four walls. LB: I think it's not a bad thing. It's almost like you're going for a walk with the person too, which is not necessarily a bad thing either. IW: Exactly. LB: That's an opportunity for you to do stuff that's a little bit different. That's something different that you do. Let's see, so we've been asking people about that. How worried are you about the future? What do you think about the future? IW: Honestly, personally I'm worried that tele-health is going to become like the new norm. Because I'm not a fan. I want to go back to the office and see my clients in person. So, selfishly, that's the first thing that comes to mind for me is like oh, I hope this doesn't become the new norm. As far as the world? I don't know. I am nervous that all of this is going to affect our upcoming election, which makes me really nervous. Because obviously, or at least to me, our leadership is very important. So, I'm nervous about the elections. I'm nervous about will we get proper treatment, will we discover anything about this really that will help it get us back to some semblance of normal. Kind of I guess the unknown is what I'm worried about. LB: Yeah, I guess maybe the people who are watching this thirty years from now know the answer. IW: Exactly. LB: I always talk about the difference between watching a movie about WWII that was made after WWII or made during WWII. And when it was made during WWII the people who made it really didn't know if we were going to win. And it was more propaganda but also really scary in a way. You could feel how it was scary, people are just trying to make people have hope. What gives you hope now? What gives you hope now? IW: Good question. What gives me hope now is I tend to be an optimist. Kind of a glass half full guy instead of half empty. Yes, I try to be realistic and look at the world and see what's going on, but my hope is looking at my friends and my family, and other people who are doing, in my opinion, the right thing as far as like remaining social distance and washing your hands and mask and everything. It shows me like okay, look, there are people out there who are doing the right thing and maybe we are putting a curb on this infection, on this disease. That gives me hope is people. And we tend to be resilient, which I really love. Especially in the LGBT+ community, for us this is not our first pandemic. So, we've bounced back and I feel like if -- I feel like we're not better prepared, but I feel like we are ahead of the game. LB: Well, explain that to the people in the future a little bit. Because I think that's true too. Explain that a little bit. IW: Back in the eighties we had when HIV was in a huge rise, even before they knew it was HIV, I believe they called it Gay-Related Infectious Disease, GRID. So, we've been battling HIV/AIDS crisis for decades at this point. And we've gotten through, we've gotten better treatments, people are smarter on how to avoid the infection, avoid the disease. And in my opinion at that time when it was brand new, that was a pandemic. You didn't know how was it spreading, do we have any treatment for it. Again they called it GRID because they didn't even know that heterosexuals could get it, they thought it was just LGBT, specifically gay men, I believe. And that's what I mean when I say we've been through that before, like we've already had our pandemic. And we're lucky, at least my generation, because I was born '88, so, I feel like I'm lucky that not only the generation before me are still around to teach us and guide us, but they are willing to do so. Take yourself, for example, you're leading the teaching at the Center, you do all the trainings. And I think that's amazing for you to give your knowledge. LB: Yeah, it's something that we can definitely do online. I've done a lot of trainings online already. I had a lot of trainings booked that ended up not being able to be given because everything was shut down. And at the time I said to people, you know, I can do these virtually for you and they said, no, no, that's okay. Now they're all getting back to me and saying, okay, let's do it online. IW: I think because I don't know if it was foolishly or hopeful, but I know myself included, I told some clients okay, we don't have to meet until we get back into the office, thinking this wouldn't be long. And now here we are months later and I'm like, I know you don't like online, but we're going to have a couple of sessions. We have to embrace the norm that we're in right now. LB: Yeah, we have to roll with it. It's what is happening and we can't pretend it's not. IW: Yeah, we can no longer pause our lives. Because I feel like that's what we all did for a little bit. And now we're realizing all right, this isn't going away any time soon, so we have to press play and just be safe about it. LB: Yeah, there's definitely that. Where did you get your graduate degree? IW: Kutztown University. LB: Did you have to go to Kutztown for that? Did you have to take classes online at the end? IW: Online at the end, yes. Like we were in the middle of the semester when everything got -- when we got sent home and put on social distancing and everything. So, we just started doing things online. I actually, the week it happened was the week I had to do a presentation that was originally going to be in class. So, I had to redo it and get it ready to present online. That was interesting because I had no one to go off, I was the first one, so everyone was going to like follow my lead. LB: No kidding. Yeah. IW: That was fun. LB: Yeah, all of these interviews that I've been doing, we got this grant to do twenty COVID interviews and ten HIV/AIDS interviews with people who had gone through that epidemic in the eighties and nineties. And because I'm the old fogey, I know those people, so it wasn't too hard, I've already done those ten interviews. But I pointed out that we're also doing archived interviews of long-time LGBT activists that through Lehigh University, and that team of people have done about ten of those interviews and it took them about a year to do them. A little bit more than a year. And then Adrian came to me and he said, well, here's this grant to do this. And I look at the grant and I said, this is thirty interviews in two months. And these other people, it took them a year and a half to do ten people. And I had never used the Zoom, so it took me a couple of weeks to get used to doing that. Luckily, it's not too hard, but still, you've got to know how to do it and get used to it. IW: Exactly. LB: Was that hard to get used to doing? IW: Other than like getting on there and being able to talk, like I can connect with someone but there's other stuff that Zoom and other platforms like Skype and Microsoft Teams offer. So, it's like you need to learn those things, like how to share your screen, for example. If I'm having -- if I'm in a staff meeting, sometimes I have to share my screen and it was like uh, how do I do that. So, I mean, again glass half full type of person, I think that's a good thing that came out of this is we're all learning new things. So, I don't know, do you feel like you would have learned about Zoom had it not been for COVID? LB: And I actually like it. Because -- IW: See? LB: Because videotaping people is hard. If you have a camera and to go to their place and with a camera and everything. But if you're doing it with Zoom it's really quite easy to do. You just press a button on it and it's done. IW: Exactly. LB: I don't have to go far away to meetings in Harrisburg and stuff like that. IW: Again, we're saving on that travel, no more gas. LB: No kidding, it really matters because that would take me the whole day for like a two-hour meeting. And now since they say we don't have to break for lunch so we'll just make it an hour and a half meeting, I'm like I hated the lunch anyway. (laughs) IW: It's like no, yeah, let's work it in, let's just get out early. LB: It's harder to network. So, it's harder to talk to people individually. IW: Yeah, and I'm a face person, so there are some people who don't really like using video, and I'm like but I don't want to talk on the phone, can we at least Facetime so I can see your face. And things get lost in translation via text, so I'm like -- LB: Text is terribly hard, I think. Text is just to say yes or no. Yes, I can talk to you at ten. But it's dangerous to try to do business on text, that's definitely the case. IW: I definitely prefer video conference. LB: What's the best thing out of this that you've done? IW: Again I think learning new things. I led a very busy lifestyle before, again, with school, and I basically had two jobs between my internship and my full-time job. So, now, I was able to learn new things like I'm one of those people who probably in other interviews have said this, I've learned how to bake. I was one of those people baking bread those first couple of weeks. And like cake, and I would have never thought, I cannot cook, it does not work well for me. So, who would have thought I'd be able to bake, because I've heard like that's a lot harder, like it's more of a science. But baking I can do, cooking I cannot. That's my sister's job. But you need a cake, I'm not it. LB: All right. Well, that's good to know. (laughs) IW: And I find it fun. LB: Yeah. So, a lot of things have been happening and at the same time, certainly a lot of political things that we're all very concerned about, and the tangential things to those or the products of those that have to do with instances of discrimination, and rights, and for our community, and for all communities. And also, certainly, some very serious things with regard to Black Lives Matter, and the circumstance of racism, and the awareness of racism in the United States. Do you want to talk about that? How has that affected you? IW: Honestly it affected me very personally. I'm a black male and I have had to look deep within myself on how I feel about the situation. Personally growing up I never really had to deal with racism. Because although part of my family is Caucasian, they're my family like I was always accepted. And we're a very mixed family, like I'm not the only mixed child. Like basically my entire generation is mixed. So, I was always accepted there, everywhere we lived was usually [majorily?] in a Black or Hispanic area. Now, as an adult, with everything going on and looking, seeing these things happen online, it made me realize how lucky I was because not everyone had that. And I really had to sit back and reflect on it. And it's hard also being a counselor at this time, being a black counselor, in my opinion, just because what we're taught is as far as a counselor my job is not to push my morals onto my client. And I'm supposed to be a safe space for them. I do have some clients that disclosed to me like listen, I don't think black lives matter, I think this whole thing is foolish, and I've had one client tell me that they hate Black people because of this because they're causing these riots, and it's just for attention because they're looting and beating up on their own people, they don't really care. And as much as it kind of hurts me, and part of me wants to defend and discuss it, I know in that time and place it's not my place. Like I'm there as their counselor, their confidant, I'm not there to challenge them really. So, it's a really weird spot to be in. LB: Yeah, that is weird. That must be very stressful. IW: Yeah, because I have to definitely make sure I'm centered and remember my purpose in that moment. And I try to educate, but you can never just come out and be like, well, I think you're wrong. Or even really challenge them completely. If it was my normal personal life, I would definitely get into it. But as a counselor that's not really my place. LB: Yeah. On the info-line, people call the info-line and they ask questions. I had a guy recently ask me, he was very, very agitated and there's something really wrong with this person, and he started to say he wanted to talk to PFLAG, and I said, well this isn't PFLAG. And he finally got the whole thing out and he was really, really angry. And finally it turned out that another LGBT organization in the greater Lehigh Valley had determined that this person was a racist, they said, "Because of things you've done, we see this as racism, and we don't want you to be associated with this organization." And he said, "This is ridiculous." And I said, "Well, what did you do?" (laughs) IW: Yeah, before -- LB: He said, so, I did this thing. He didn't want to tell me. And then he finally said it and I said, "Well, I can see why they thought this was racist." And he said, "But it's not." And I said, "Well that's not really the issue. The issue is what they perceived and they did perceive that. IW: Honestly that is a big thing that I've been discussing with people actually in counseling and outside of counseling is perception. Like right now they, you know, people are debating about this monument, about Abraham Lincoln, where he's standing and there is a black male there with the chains like this, but they're broken. If you know your history you know that Abraham Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation, that statue is to show that -- that he helped free the black people. But honestly, if you look at it from afar, it does look like a white man standing and a black man on his knees like he's less than the man. So, it's about perception. LB: That's a good point, yeah. Yeah, I think that a lot of people are not comfortable in trying to take a different point of view other than one is narrow and sort of justifying how they were feeling in the past. And they still want to say, I don't want to change. And I think really this whole time that we're doing stuff is really about change. You have to change. IW: And I think honestly that's a beautiful thing right now is that people are noticing there's a need for a change. And people are making things happen for that change. Like people are taking the steps. And yes, there are boulders in the way and the path is not exactly smooth but marching along anyway. LB: Yeah, that's a tricky thing. It's hard. So, we're coming to the end I think. So, I just want to ask you if there is anything else that you think someday somebody in the future is going to look at this and I think, I hope, that will be the case. And it might be in the near future, it might be many, many years, it might be decades, we might be all gone by them. We had another pandemic about one hundred and two years ago that was very, very serious, and if you came to any of my art history classes I happened to talk about it all the time because it's always in my (inaudible) if you talk to Rachel because she was in almost all my classes, I'm always talking about the flu epidemic of 1918. And one of the reasons was it had such a profound impact on a lot of the areas of art that I've spoken about. And it had an impact on my family because my grandmother died in that flu epidemic. But I think that we don't have any oral histories from that time, we don't have anybody talking about that. And in fact you weren't allowed to talk about that time because it was considered an act of sedition because it was during WWI, and the government had said you can't say anything negative about the country, including that we're all dying of this disease, or you'll go to prison. And so, that's one of the reasons why we don't have a lot of information. Now we do. And we all have the opportunity. They didn't even have recorders then, now we do. So, we have the opportunity to do that. And here's the chance for you to say something to somebody way in the future about what it was like right now, just in general. So, here you go, go ahead. IW: Well, it's challenging, and I think it's important to have hope. And to not be afraid to be a leader. Like there are going to be some people around that say oh, that's foolish, I don't believe in that. And it's important for a person to believe in their own beliefs and have the courage to stand up for them. And hopefully decades from now, hopefully even sooner, things are a lot more equal for us, and I hope that's the case. And if it isn't, I hope the individuals in the future keep on fighting until we do reach equality because we all matter. LB: Yeah, that's for sure. IW: And I think that's something as far as Black Lives Matter that a lot of people are not getting is they think by saying Black Lives Matter is black people are better. No, it's just that there's a realization that we're not being treated equally. So, it's kind of like a black lives matters too, so we all just want to be on the same playing field, the same level. Like LGBT, different people of color, men, women, like we all just want to be equal. And I think that's important. So, if there is a group of people in the future that are not being treated as equal, fight for them. Even if it's not your person. LB: That's good. That's a good thing to tell the future. That's a great thing. IW: Thank you. LB: Thank you so much for this. I really am very, very grateful for this opportunity to talk to you. It's fun to talk to you. I love the room that you're in. IW: Yeah, my new office while all this is happening. LB: Now are those blue and red squares painted on the wall? IW: Yeah. This isn't my room. LB: I love it, I absolutely love it. And I have a master's degree in art, so feel free to have the person who's room that is, tell them I think it's fabulous. It is fabulous. IW: Rachel's daughter, Emily, she did this, this was her room. LB: It's beautiful. IW: I like specifically the chalk, the black squares are chalk, so I get to write on them. LB: Yeah, that's a special kind of paint that you can write on with chalk. I think that's a very good idea. Good for you. I'm going to turn off the recording now. END OF AUDIO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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00:56:26
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Ian Wagner, July 9, 2020
Description
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Ian Wagner talks about the current COVID-19 is affecting him, his friends and family, and the people he lives with, his work as a therapist and not being able to see clients face to face and his new job, how it is affecting LGBTQ people, Black Lives Matter issues, community leadership, learning to bake, and what gives him hope.
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PH40_29
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
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2020-07-09
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg Special Collections and College Archives
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3d26eede949bfff0f4779133974844fa
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
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In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Liz Bradbury
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Steve Ziminsky
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_28.xml
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5.4 July 20, 2020 Steve Ziminsky, July 20, 2020 PH40_28 01:03:13 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Steve Ziminsky Liz Bradbury video/mpeg ZiminskySteve_20200720_video.mp4 1.0:|27(4)|58(8)|85(9)|122(3)|159(3)|202(10)|237(12)|270(9)|311(5)|344(11)|375(6)|420(4)|453(6)|486(6)|520(2)|551(3)|588(5)|623(3)|658(6)|687(12)|722(2)|751(9)|780(10)|813(8)|848(7)|879(13)|910(5)|939(15)|972(2)|1003(2)|1038(2)|1079(5)|1110(19)|1135(12)|1170(11)|1207(10)|1240(8)|1271(7)|1302(15)|1335(9)|1360(19)|1387(7)|1422(17)|1449(13)|1494(4)|1525(13)|1550(13)|1577(14)|1610(10)|1639(11)|1666(8)|1695(3)|1722(14)|1759(13)|1784(3)|1809(15)|1842(2)|1871(9)|1914(2)|1949(5)|1982(13)|2011(3)|2038(9)|2049(5) 0 https://youtu.be/a2d1k9Md7qI YouTube video 0 Interview Introduction LIZ BRADBURY: And I’m also going to turn on my audio recording backup, when...
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 ; STEVE ZIMINSKY: (coughs) Getting louder on this end. Good.
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 ; LB: Oh, is it better? Can you hear me okay?
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 ; SZ: I see it says, “Recording.”
 ; 0 286 Working part-time at Grace Lutheran Church in Macungie during the pandemic LB: So talk about... So you’re not working now. So that’s a good thing, compared to other teachers, like.
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 ; SZ: I’m a retired music teacher, almost thirty-three years in music ed. But I’m also -- am working my part-time job. The church never closed. So we’re doing video services each week.
 ; 0 400 Grace Lutheran operations during the pandemic LB: So h--? So you’re working. And was that plan all -- that they would just continue, right away? Were they closed at all during that time, the church?
 ; 
 ; SZ: They really weren’t closed. There was one week, March 15th, where it was kind of optional for staff, if we wanted to come. And I just didn’t feel right that day. So I thought, “I’ll stay away.” But ever since March 15th... And we even did some Wednesday services. They’re all on YouTube. 0 433 Changed vacation plans due to pandemic SZ: And then I even got my vacation Sundays. And even though I’m not going anywhere... Anywhere I was going to go is all canceled or postponed to next year. But I at least got a chance to get some time off. And we had (inaudible) figure in advance. I did get some time off.
 ; 
 ; LB: Did you have a vacation plan?
 ; 
 ; SZ: The one week, no, and one week, yes. This coming Sunday, I probably would have been going... I was really thinking of going to New Orleans.
 ; 0 454 Postponed Black and White Men Together conference in New Orleans, Louisiana SZ: The one week, no, and one week, yes. This coming Sunday, I probably would have been going... I was really thinking of going to New Orleans.
 ; 
 ; LB: Ah!
 ; 
 ; SZ: There’s a convention that was going to be held there. And then we start seeing... New Orleans really had an outbreak there. And I didn’t even buy the airline ticket. That’s when, I think, you’re really committed, when you buy the airline ticket. I’m so... And so they’re talking next year. But they’re also talking a video element to the convention. So if you don’t want to risk things and do that -- you can watch the key parts right online, like this.
 ; 
 ; LB: And that’s a convention for people who are music...?
 ; 
 ; SZ: Well, actually it’s a gay-related convention --
 ; 
 ; LB: Oh!
 ; 
 ; SZ: -- Black and White Men Together.
 ; 0 502 Socializing through Zoom LB: So have you been communicating with a lot of people? Like have you done other Zoom things and...? Probably ha--
 ; 
 ; SZ: Oh, plenty of Zoom things. In fact, the most unusual one is I belong to several eating groups. We would get together like once a month. And so now what we do is go out to a restaurant or a place, bring something back, put it on our desk here, and eat and watch each other.
 ; 0 570 Communication with family LB: So are you communicating with other people? Like...? Do you have family around and that stuff?
 ; 
 ; SZ: Not really in this area. I do have living family. But the parents are dead. The grandparents are dead. The cousins are spread all over the country. I think the closest one is up in the Poconos area. And I haven’t really communicated there too much. And there’s some in Florida. And on the other side of the family, one of the things that really kind of hit was that one of my former roommates, as well as my aunt, who is now ninety-one... Sh-- I happened to visit her in early March. And then, all of a sudden, you know, no more visits anywhere, for either of those two. And then she was transferred to a different nursing home. And I’m not the power of attorney. But another one of my cousins is. And all of sudden, you found out, “Oh, by the way, she’s been moved.” So... She’s kind of death -- profoundly deaf and really is very quiet. So she never got to see the new nursing home. They just put her in a room. They bring the food to you. And it’s been this way for several months. And then the same thing with the former roommate that was here for ten years. And he’s over at ManorCare, in Bethlehem.
 ; 0 594 Inability to visit former roommate and aunt in their respective nursing homes SZ: And on the other side of the family, one of the things that really kind of hit was that one of my former roommates, as well as my aunt, who is now ninety-one... Sh-- I happened to visit her in early March. And then, all of a sudden, you know, no more visits anywhere, for either of those two. And then she was transferred to a different nursing home. And I’m not the power of attorney. But another one of my cousins is. And all of sudden, you found out, “Oh, by the way, she’s been moved.” So... She’s kind of death -- profoundly deaf and really is very quiet. So she never got to see the new nursing home. They just put her in a room. They bring the food to you. And it’s been this way for several months. And then the same thing with the former roommate that was here for ten years. And he’s over at ManorCare, in Bethlehem.
 ; 
 ; LB: Liam?
 ; 0 654 Video chatting with former roommate, Liam, living at ManorCare, Bethlehem SZ: At least ManorCare is having these weekly video chats -- (dog coughing) and they usually are pretty good about. [00:11:00] Thursday, the phone rings. And you get to see him, get to talk. And he did have COVID. I’m trying to think of some of those questions you had on your list there --
 ; 
 ; LB: Yeah.
 ; 0 680 Liam testing positive for/Living with Covid-19 LB: Okay. So Liam was sick?
 ; 
 ; SZ: Yes. And they gave him like... I think it was the third test he tested positive on. The first two, no. But he had always that, kind of... He’s very weak. And so then they said he had COVID. And then they kind of moved him to a different room. And it turned out the whole place... They were sending out emails like a lot. And they were up to over one hundred people --
 ; 0 696 Moving Liam and many other Covid-positive patients to different rooms/ManorCare location and layout
 ; SZ: And then they kind of moved him to a different room. And it turned out the whole place... They were sending out emails like a lot. And they were up to over one hundred people --
 ; 
 ; LB: Wow.
 ; 
 ; SZ: -- including patients and staff. And it’s only a four-story building. And... 0 724 Spread of Covid-19 to the ManorCare 2029 building SZ: But the 2029 for a while didn’t have it. And then, all of a sudden, it just hit. And it’s not from the visitors, because there are not visitors. And we went -- just couldn’t wait till each week. And they finally got a way to communicate. You could talk to them. And he’s hoping to get back to his room. But again, he’s moved to another room. The rooms are all the same -- the same floor. It’s just down the hallway a little bit more. So, fine, you know?
 ; 0 752 Why Liam and other patients were moved/ManorCare protocols LB: They moved him to a different room, because they thought the room was contaminated or something?
 ; 
 ; SZ: Well, he had it. And then his first roommate, who he’s had quite a while --
 ; 
 ; LB: Oh, I see 0 811 Liam's other illnesses/Vulnerability of older people to Covid-19 LB: Ah. Well, Liam has other illnesses, doesn’t he?
 ; 
 ; SZ: Yeah. He has quite a few things. And so he’s kind of confined to his bed. But he is talking. I mean, his mind is fine.
 ; 
 ; LB: Yeah. Is he about your age?
 ; 0 887 Video chatting with Liam via Duo LB: So you’ve been talking to him via like a Zoom thing or just on the phone or...?
 ; 
 ; SZ: It’s called Duo.
 ; 
 ; LB: Oh.
 ; 
 ; SZ: Yeah. That’s what they use. So I had to... 0 903 Possibly catching Covid-19/ Cancelling plans because of Covid-19 LB: What’s your biggest concern about this? Are you concerned about you getting it?
 ; 
 ; SZ: I can’t prove that I had it but I think I did.
 ; 
 ; LB: Oh, yeah?
 ; 0 978 Possible Covid-19 symptoms/No such diagnosis as Covid-19 at the time LB: Did you have a sense of smell?
 ; 
 ; SZ: I don’t remember that.
 ; 
 ; LB: They say...
 ; 
 ; SZ: But I do remember my appetite was down.
 ; 
 ; LB: Well, that’s a big thing. Yeah.
 ; 0 1046 Virtual doctor's visits LB: I guess that you could, at the hospital, have them check to see if you have antibodies in your blood.
 ; 
 ; SZ: Yeah, but... I have to wait for my next doctor visit. And at least it’ll be in person. My last doctor visit was over like something like this. 0 1083 Possible inaccurate diagnosis of bronchitis SZ: I mentioned it to the doctor and she thought that, “No, you had something else, bronchitis of some kind.” Well, it could be that too. Because a lot of bronchitis symptoms are similar too. And I was really pushing it.
 ; 
 ; LB: I don’t know. The things that you’re describing, though, they’re some... I’ve had bronchitis and I didn’t have diarrhea from it. 0 1142 Recovery process/Covid-19 affecting people differently SZ: And as it was, I went home and I took it real easy. And I could eat again. And everything kind of went back to being fine. But I never had it where... All your insides were rumbling there, while we were waiting for the bus. It was...
 ; 
 ; LB: Well...
 ; 
 ; SZ: I don’t want to chance this, so...
 ; 0 1196 Biggest concerns regarding the pandemic and the LGBT community/Protesting with Black Lives Matter, anti-Trump protests LB: So what’s your biggest concern during the pandemic, in terms of the LGBT community? What do you think about that?
 ; 
 ; SZ: Well, we’re all trying to survive. Yesterday I got to see part of the Reading pride festival online.
 ; 0 1299 Thoughts on Dr. Rachel Levine/Governor Tom Wolf LB: So how about being able to see Rachel Levine, on the videos tha-- Dr. Rachel Levine, who’s our Secretary of Health? That’s been a pretty positive thing for me. I don’t know about you. How do you feel about that?
 ; 
 ; SZ: Very positive. I don’t watch every single day. But sometimes you’re at your phone and, all of a sudden, “Oh, [00:22:00] the governor’s coming on.” And usually, Rachel’s on. And she’s very good. And it’s a very public spot. And usually the advice is right. I’m very enthusiastic about the governor too. Because he’s under a lot of pressure.
 ; 0 1345 Thoughts on school openings LB: Well, as a teacher or as a retired teacher... Because you were a teacher for a long, long, long time, in the Allentown School District, and from school to school. So you really traveled around from school to school. What do you think about opening schools?
 ; 
 ; SZ: They should stay online, no matter what it is. I know it’s not as good as in person. And I was sharing some things on Facebook about this. But if I think of my last schedule that I had, I had two schools. I was six days at one school and two days at another school. And in eight days, [00:23:00] eight school days, you saw every child once. Now imagine if, around day eight... You know, the first few days -- probably going to go really well. But then, all of a sudden, if one teacher even has it, you’ve now exposed the entire school --
 ; 0 1525 Teacher friend's thoughts on school openings/Teachers leaving school before the pandemic LB: What about...? Have you talked to...? Because you were talking about going with other retired teachers on a trip. So... Or... And this teacher that -- you were talking, before we got on Zoom today -- that you went for a walk with... Who’s a current teacher?
 ; 
 ; SZ: Yes.
 ; 0 1580 Lack of communication over school openings/ Health dangers with school openings SZ: But you hear about all the online meetings but nothing’s been said. And it would be nice for them to know. Are we going to stay online? It would save the school district a lot of money. They have to go out and buy this stuff and adapt the buildings. And then, “Oh, we’re not doing that this year.”
 ; 
 ; LB: I can’t imagine that... I mean, if the guidelines for the state are that you’re not supposed to be in a circumstance where there’s more than 250 people... Well, really, a school, even though you have classrooms, the kids are circulating around, though. So I don’t know if we have --
 ; 0 1814 Historic lack of air conditioning in schools LB: They’ve closed schools just for flu, in the past, or for measles outbreak or for something.
 ; 
 ; SZ: Or today, for heat.
 ; 
 ; LB: For what?
 ; 
 ; SZ: Heat. Some of our buildings aren’t air con--
 ; 
 ; LB: Oh, heat. I...
 ; 
 ; SZ: If you’re in Florida there, it gets brutal! 0 1953 Dealing with lack of air conditioning and social distancing LB: So what that would do is create situations, particularly in September, when it can still be very, very hot, where they would try to move kids -- or normally they would move kids to rooms that had air conditioning. So it’d be more kids in one space.
 ; 
 ; SZ: But then there you are, as a... You’re a kid in the air conditioned room. And now other kids are coming to join you. And then, are they going to kick you out?
 ; 
 ; LB: Yeah. Yeah.
 ; 0 1991 Students and teachers wanting to return to school/lack of student social development SZ: But I have one friend who is going to be seventy-four in December, and hasn’t had it or anything. But his wife is very -- she has lupus -- much younger than him. His son is nineteen, just finished L-Tri-C and going to Kutztown. And if one of those gets it and brings it home, that could really... But he’s had two heart attacks, got diabetes -- almost seventy-four. And, oh, yeah, he wants to go back. Like, well... So there are some teachers, they want to go back. But it’s like, why?
 ; 0 2074 Possibility of students infecting each other LB: --the problem is, though, that those kids will still infect each other. And --
 ; 
 ; SZ: They could. Yeah.
 ; 
 ; LB: -- it’s impossible to not h--
 ; 
 ; SZ: A huge room and a lot of computers.
 ; 
 ; LB: I don’t see how they could do that. I don’t see how you could have a group of twenty kids in one room and not have them carrying an illness, no matter what they did. I mean, you just can’t keep kids from... It’s like saying, “Well, you know, of course they’ll wash their hands every single time they go to the bathroom.”
 ; 0 2124 Use of queer dating or hookup apps LB: Oh, here’s a good question. Have you spent any time on queer dating or hookup apps?
 ; 
 ; SZ: Not really. Because it doesn’t matter if they’re in another country or in your state or just down the road. The chance of actually meeting somebody, it’s a bit of a risk.
 ; 
 ; LB: Yeah, that’s true. That’s true.
 ; 0 2179 Pandemic affecting restaurant music jobs LB: So in general, has it affected your life pretty significantly? What’s the biggest effect that it’s had on your life?
 ; 
 ; SZ: Well, biggest thing is you do have to stay in a lot more. And I had a piano-playing job in a restaurant.
 ; 
 ; LB: Oh, yeah.
 ; 0 2292 Discussion of limited capacity at venues SZ: But it’s like -- it’s really unsafe now. Now, that same place has an outdoor pavilion. But you’re talking September, October? You know. That’s kind of rough. And then we have a big job up in the Poconos, almost near New York State. And that’s in October. And, yeah, we have a date. It’s a beautiful facility. It’s a beautiful area. But again you’re talking probably several hundred people. Then they’re going to bring in German dancers. I just don’t think that’s going to happen this year. 0 2382 Grace Lutheran Church at limited capacity/ Popularity of events through streaming, Zoom SZ: And that’s why I’m happy that the church is doing something. And then, with this cutback, we were, again, making plans to reopen in August. And now it looks like, well, maybe September or later. And as the church musician, I’m looking ahead and thinking, “What are we doing to do for Christmas?” And [00:40:00] all the things that happen around the Christmas season... It’s like, well, I think we’re just going to, you know... And then, when you find out and you have to go through the denomination, you have to go through the state guidelines too -- but when you find out what you can actually do in a church service, live, according to the official rule, there’s not much at all. And so they’re getting more to watch the video than they are if you actually showed up.
 ; 0 2502 Health risks of having in-person events LB: Now, we have some people who have said that they don’t want to do it on Zoom. And Adrian has said, “Well, you know, some people won’t do it on Zoom. They only will do it in public. So if we can open for the public for some of our support groups, that would be a good thing.” But I don’t know. Because, [00:42:00] you know, if we make somebody sick, it’s going to look awful bad.
 ; 
 ; SZ: And if it stays in the air or got on something they touched and then somebody else touches it... Bathrooms... 0 2565 Walking at the Lehigh Parkway and Trexler Park/ Health concerns while walking LB: So you’ve been going to the park a lot, to go for walks?
 ; 
 ; SZ: Two to three times a week.
 ; 
 ; LB: That’s nice.
 ; 
 ; SZ: And sometimes the walking partner’s there. Sometimes, if that’s not available, I do it by myself. And sometimes what I’ve done als-- I live so close [00:43:00] to Trexler park. And sometimes I’ll go there.
 ; 0 2704 Postponement of American Theatre Organ Society convention to 2021 LB: So you were looking at the possibility of going to a convention, that was a queer convention, in New Orleans then, huh?
 ; 
 ; SZ: Well, actually, there was three conventions I could have gone to.
 ; 
 ; LB: Oh, that’s the...
 ; 
 ; SZ: And they all were moved into next year.
 ; 
 ; LB: Ah. What were they?
 ; 
 ; SZ: Well, the one is called the American Theatre Organ Society. And they were going to go back to Indianapolis. And I’d been there. Just about like five, six years ago, they had it there too. And not much has changed, really -- 0 2762 Not being able to give concerts during the pandemic--specifically discusses organ concerts SZ: It’s like now, well, you can’t give any concerts, you can’t do anything. And then another friend of mine, who plays theater organ as well as classical organ, he’s not doing anything. If your church isn’t doing... And we have churches in the area here that basically... They do it from home. It’s like video mashup of something. I have another friend who used to be a pastor, who is now a church musician himself. And he brought a keyboard from church to his home. So he doesn’t have an organ. He just plays this keyboard. And that gets put on their service somehow. And he hasn’t been at his church in six months. I had a substitute, recently, who confided in me that this person hasn’t played the pipe organ in six months -- but did very well. But it’s kind of like you get a rough time, when you can’t get on an instrument.
 ; 0 2820 Still being able to play organ at church because of special dispensation/service video streams SZ: I have an organ at home. But I haven’t really needed to use it. Because I get out to chur-- And that was a nice thing. Because when this started in March, there was a special thing that you were allowed to be on the road to get out to church to practice. If anybody would have stopped me, you know... Because you were supposed to now... But there was a dispensation that you could... Well, then, if you’re out at church, you could stop at a convenience store and get a little something to eat. And then that was... So you kind of could get out. But you had to -- yeah -- be careful of it that way. But then... So, luckily. But they’ve been clamping down, to say, “Look, the only people are there, the people that do these video. That’s... And the church secretary. That’s it.” It’s...
 ; 0 2873 Discussion of other people who have caught the virus LB: So you were talking about... Do you know anybody...? You did talk a little bit about people. And certainly you were talking about Liam, who’s had this. Have you [00:48:00] known anybody else who has had the virus? You talked pretty much about that already, I guess.
 ; 
 ; SZ: One that I really knew was Liam. Other people --
 ; 
 ; LB: No.
 ; 0 2916 Discussion of pandemic on mental health/ Life during the pandemic LB: So how do you think this is -- think it’s affecting your mental health? You feel different? I m-- do you feel despair or great hope or about the same? Or what do you think?
 ; 
 ; SZ: Overall, I keep so busy each day...
 ; 
 ; LB: That’s good. 0 2992 Discussing the possibility of playing electric keyboard at Brick Tavern Inn in Quakertown LB: What was the restaurant that you were doing a gig at?
 ; 
 ; SZ: Brick Tavern Inn, in Quakertown. And they have an outdoor [00:50:00] patio. And it’s very nice. And they’d always talked about, you know, “You bring your own keyboard.” And I’d be willing to do that. But now you’re twenty-five percent capacity. And you’re stuck on the weather. I mean, weather today is really hot. Other weekends, in the past, it’s been really, you know... It’s over a mountain. So the weather we have here, they may have the same thing or not. And sometimes it comes really fast, because they’re kind of close to the mountain. And, all of a sudden, there you are with your keyboard-- your electric keyboard and it starts to rain. Now what?
 ; 0 3069 Feeling sorry for musician friends who need a band to perform SZ: I feel sorry for my other friends that are in -- or play instruments like, say, drums. Well, you need a band. A drum solo is nice for two or three minutes at the most. And then you need something else. Or bassoon. Well, you need an orchestra. You need a small group. By yourself, that’s... But piano’s nice, because... Piano and organ, you can be your one-person band that way, and it’s nice. At least I’m playing. That’s the important thing. And that’s what I’m happy about.
 ; 0 3121 Thoughts for future generations regarding the pandemic LB: Yeah, I think we’ve hit everything on here. Let me ask you this. If you imagine that this video, which is going into the archives at Muhlenberg...? And I’ve been doing a lot of these. I told you before that I did a bunch of AIDS -- ones about AIDS. And I did ten of those. And those were pretty interesting. Oh, and you were... You’ve already talked about some of your protesting stuff. I’ve asked everybody what they were concerned about with regard to Black Lives Matter and with regard to political 0 3294 The impact of boycotting certain brands, companies, and restaurants for political reasons SZ: And certain brands, you’ve learned now, it’s li-- We’re never going to that restaurant, never going to buy that brand of jeans -- and other things that way. And it’s like, you know, you cons--
 ; 
 ; LB: Talk about the... I think this is an important thing. Because Trish was just saying that somebody said that, when you go into a store right now, the only beans on the shelf are Goya. Because no one is buying them.
 ; 0 3411 Huge pandemic stimulus mistakenly going to large corporations instead of small businesses SZ: What I’ll mention online too is that Ruth’s -- Chris -- Steakhouse --
 ; 
 ; LB: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; SZ: -- a very fine steakhouse... And they try... And then they got caught. So they gave the money back.
 ; 
 ; LB: Yeah.
 ; 0 3490 Conclusion LB: And so is there anything else you want to say or toss in or talk about here?
 ; 
 ; SZ: Not really. It’s been very nice talking with you.
 ; 
 ; LB: It’s been lovely talking with you! I don’t get to see you enough. And I’ve known you --
 ; 0 MovingImage Steven Ziminsky talks about how the current COVID-19 pandemic is affecting him as a retired teacher, a musician, and a church music director who is featured on Zoom church services. He also discusses exercise and civil rights and political activism. Steve Ziminsky2020-07-20 LIZ BRADBURY: And I'm also going to turn on my audio recording backup, when... STEVE ZIMINSKY: (coughs) Getting louder on this end. Good. LB: Oh, is it better? Can you hear me okay? SZ: I see it says, "Recording." LB: It does. And I actually have done a lot of these. This is my eighteenth interview. I've done eight for COVID-19 and ten for HIV/AIDS. And one of the AIDS I did, which was Rose Craig... I don't know if you know Rose Craig. She was involved in the AIDS Services Center. She was one of the people who directed it, in the eighties and nineties And I did her whole interview -- she's in Columbus, Ohio, actually, now -- and it turned out that there was a glitch at the beginning and it didn't record it. But luckily, I had an entire audio, separate recording of her. And the video wasn't very good, because her camera kept falling over. So (laughs) I figured, "Aeh," you know, "at least I have the audio." So that was good. So how are you doing, Steve? SZ: I can't complain. I'm one of the few successful ones, I think. LB: If... SZ: It's been three years since I retired. LB: Yeah. So it's a... SZ: So... LB: Let me set this up. And then you can tell me everything you've been doing. Because I'm dying to hear. So let me say this. With this project, Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community, collecting and curating local LGBT experiences, from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury. And I'm here with Steve Ziminsky, to talk about his experiences in the Lehigh Valley community during this time of the COVID-19 pandemic, as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive-- We're meeting on Zoom, on Monday, July 20th, in 2020. Oh, it's 20-2020. Thank you, so much, Steve, for being willing to speak with us today. For the first part, could you please state your name and spell it for me? SZ: Stephen, S-T-E-P-H-E-N -- and last name is Ziminsky, Z-I-M-I-N-S-K-Y. But people call me Steve. LB: (laughs) Will you please share your birthdate? SZ: August 29th, 1960. LB: Okay. And you're in Allentown? Is that correct? You're... SZ: West side of Allentown, technically not in the South Whitehall Township but I have an Allentown address. LB: Okay! Okay. So do you consent to this interview today? SZ: Yeah. LB: (laughs) Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable formats? SZ: Yeah. LB: Do you consent to the LGBT archive using your interview for educational purposes or in other formats, including films, articles, websites, presentations, or other future formats we can't even imagine? SZ: Yes. LB: (laughs) Do you understand that you'll have 30 days after the electronic delivery of this transcript to review your interview and identify any parts you'd like to delete...? And/or you can withdraw your entire interview from the project. SZ: Yes. LB: Okay. So I have to do a couple of identity things. So what's your ZIP Code where you are? SZ: 18104. LB: And what is your age? You were just telling me about that. SZ: Oh, I'm fifty-nine right now. LB: Okay. And how do you identify with the LGBT community, gay, trans, lesbian, bi, ace? SZ: Gay. LB: Okay. And cisgender? SZ: Yes. LB: Okay. And so this is some stuff that we're going to talk about. So, in general, let's start with this. You... Let me just ask this first question, that I ask everybody. So are you in your house by yourself or do you have other people there? SZ: Just my pet -- LB: Oh... SZ: -- which is Atlas the pug, and me. LB: (laughs) Atlas the pug. Great. And so talk about your work. You were saying, before we started this, that you were retired. So there's your pug. Oh, that's -- SZ: He's sitting with me, close. LB: -- cute. (laughs) Good thing he's not outside. It wouldn't be good weather for him. SZ: Oh, they don't do well outside. LB: No. It's really hot outside. So talk about... So you're not working now. So that's a good thing, compared to other teachers, like. SZ: I'm a retired music teacher, almost thirty-three years in music ed. But I'm also -- am working my part-time job. The church never closed. So we're doing video services each week. LB: Oh. SZ: So we usually do them on Saturdays. I go out. And I get to play the piano, the organ. There's no choir involved. But there usually is special music involved. And so that keeps my playing, at least. Because all those other side jobs aren't. LB: So you go to the church to do that, then. SZ: Yes. LB: And then they video you. SZ: Yeah. LB: What church is that? SZ: Grace Lutheran, in Macungie. LB: Okay. Okay. Yeah. SZ: And I'll be starting my tenth year there in September. LB: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so are there other people there, when you're doing that? Probably just the people with the... SZ: Pastor. And now we have a person who's running the video part, and if there's special music. LB: Uh-huh. Oh, you mean other people playing music?SZ:Other people. Yesterday we had a violinist. And we're going to be having a flutist, coming up, and all sorts of different other people, and a number of vocalists. Nobody wants to do it, then I do something. LB: Like a vocal? SZ: Like a piano solo. LB: Oh, a piano s-- Oh, I see. Nice. So that's nice. So... Well, if the church is big and you can social-distance there, if you need to, and stuff like that... So that's good. It's a big space, isn't it? SZ: Pretty big. It probably seats about one hundred and fifty. But it's excellent acoustics -- LB: Well, tha-- SZ: -- built about 1912, with a pipe organ and a nice piano. So. People enjoy hearing the organ. And we had just had it tuned and fixed up. So everything's working. And they're enjoying it. LB: Yeah. Well, that's great! So h--? So you're working. And was that plan all -- that they would just continue, right away? Were they closed at all during that time, the church? SZ: They really weren't closed. There was one week, March 15th, where it was kind of optional for staff, if we wanted to come. And I just didn't feel right that day. So I thought, "I'll stay away." But ever since March 15th... And we even did some Wednesday services. They're all on YouTube. LB: Ah! SZ: So every week, we've been doing something. And then I even got my vacation Sundays. And even though I'm not going anywhere... Anywhere I was going to go is all canceled or postponed to next year. But I at least got a chance to get some time off. And we had (inaudible) figure in advance. I did get some time off. LB: Did you have a vacation plan? SZ: The one week, no, and one week, yes. This coming Sunday, I probably would have been going... I was really thinking of going to New Orleans. LB: Ah! SZ: There's a convention that was going to be held there. And then we start seeing... New Orleans really had an outbreak there. And I didn't even buy the airline ticket. That's when, I think, you're really committed, when you buy the airline ticket. I'm so... And so they're talking next year. But they're also talking a video element to the convention. So if you don't want to risk things and do that -- you can watch the key parts right online, like this. LB: And that's a convention for people who are music...? SZ: Well, actually it's a gay-related convention -- LB: Oh! SZ: -- Black and White Men Together. LB: Oh, oh! Okay. I... Good. So that's the -- Okay. Good. So... Okay. So have you been communicating with a lot of people? Like have you done other Zoom things and...? Probably ha-- SZ: Oh, plenty of Zoom things. In fact, the most unusual one is I belong to several eating groups. We would get together like once a month. And so now what we do is go out to a restaurant or a place, bring something back, put it on our desk here, and eat and watch each other. LB: (laughs) SZ: There's one through the church -- has done that now too. And then there's different groups. Sometimes you sit there and talk. And sometimes you sit there and talk and eat. LB: Yeah. SZ: And they haven't done the drinking ones yet. LB: (laughs) SZ: But that would be interesting. LB: What restaurant? What restaurant? SZ: Well, you get to pick. The one time it was to get a burger. LB: Oh! SZ: And I m-- one this past Friday but that one was to go to an Indian restaurant and have Indian food -- but not together. We'll just come back and watch it. But -- LB: Did you do that? SZ: -- I didn't go to that one. But each month, there's usually something different. LB: That's so interesting. So where did you get your burger? SZ: Oh, Red Robin. I live right around the corner. LB: Oh. Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty close to Red Robin. So are you communicating with other people? Like...? Do you have family around and that stuff? SZ: Not really in this area. I do have living family. But the parents are dead. The grandparents are dead. The cousins are spread all over the country. I think the closest one is up in the Poconos area. And I haven't really communicated there too much. And there's some in Florida. And on the other side of the family, one of the things that really kind of hit was that one of my former roommates, as well as my aunt, who is now ninety-one... Sh-- I happened to visit her in early March. And then, all of a sudden, you know, no more visits anywhere, for either of those two. And then she was transferred to a different nursing home. And I'm not the power of attorney. But another one of my cousins is. And all of sudden, you found out, "Oh, by the way, she's been moved." So... She's kind of death -- profoundly deaf and really is very quiet. So she never got to see the new nursing home. They just put her in a room. They bring the food to you. And it's been this way for several months. And then the same thing with the former roommate that was here for ten years. And he's over at ManorCare, in Bethlehem. LB: Liam? SZ: And -- Liam -- he's been there for over seven years now. LB: And... SZ: At least ManorCare is having these weekly video chats -- (dog coughing) and they usually are pretty good about. Thursday, the phone rings. And you get to see him, get to talk. And he did have COVID. I'm trying to think of some of those questions you had on your list there -- LB: Yeah. SZ: -- so I can answer -- LB: Well, I have some questions. SZ: -- half of them. LB: I'll get to this, in terms of... That was your dog's coughing I hear there. SZ: Yeah. LB: He's close to the microphone. SZ: He has the... But he's happy now. LB: Okay. So Liam was sick? SZ: Yes. And they gave him like... I think it was the third test he tested positive on. The first two, no. But he had always that, kind of... He's very weak. And so then they said he had COVID. And then they kind of moved him to a different room. And it turned out the whole place... They were sending out emails like a lot. And they were up to over one hundred people -- LB: Wow. SZ: -- including patients and staff. And it's only a four-story building. And... LB: Where is ManorCare? Is that in Allentown? SZ: Bethlehem. ManorCare in Bethlehem, the 2029 building. LB: Oh, golly. SZ: There's two buildings, right next to each other. We're not even talking about the other building, which is just as big. But the 2029 for a while didn't have it. And then, all of a sudden, it just hit. And it's not from the visitors, because there are not visitors. And we went -- just couldn't wait till each week. And they finally got a way to communicate. You could talk to them. And he's hoping to get back to his room. But again, he's moved to another room. The rooms are all the same -- the same floor. It's just down the hallway a little bit more. So, fine, you know? LB: They moved him to a different room, because they thought the room was contaminated or something? SZ: Well, he had it. And then his first roommate, who he's had quite a while -- LB: Oh, I see. SZ: -- had to go to the hospital for something. And then they moved him to a different room. And then... They even had some kind of barriers in the hallway. And I think that was... So you had to get through the barrier to get into the room, so it wouldn't spread so much. And you should see what the nurses look like. I mean, they're wearing their full PPE, whatever that is. And it was quite a scare there. But now they've said the entire floor where he i-- the fourth floor, is COVID-free. However, that means they still have some in the building. And even if they had none in the building, we're still not allowed to visit. So this has been over six months, and not visi-- And the aunt, I know which nursing home it is but, to get in there and do things, I don't know -- in the Reading area, that one. LB: Ah. Well, Liam has other illnesses, doesn't he? SZ: Yeah. He has quite a few things. And so he's kind of confined to his bed. But he is talking. I mean, his mind is fine. LB: Yeah. Is he about your age? SZ: Oh, no. He just had his birthday. He's sixty-seven now. LB: Sixty-seven. SZ: He just made his next birthday there. So... LB: Close to my age. (laughs) SZ: Oh! LB: I'm not... I'm sixty-three. But... But, yeah, people in their sixties, they're certainly at risk. But he had other health issues. That's why he was in there. Is that true? SZ: Oh, yeah. That's where he'll be. The main thing is congestive heart failure. LB: Oh, I see. Is that in...? SZ: And so his heart gets weaker and weaker. So he can do less and less. And things begin to atrophy. And every time I would go in to visit, you'd always have to grab an arm and move his arm, move his legs. And the nurses would do that too. But he needed a lot of that. And he couldn't move anything. The only thing he'd do is -- just enough of the fingers to move the remote on the TV -- but couldn't use his cell phone, couldn't type on a computer, nothing. LB: Wow. That's tough. So you've been talking to him via like a Zoom thing or just on the phone or...? SZ: It's called Duo. LB: Oh. SZ: Yeah. That's what they use. So I had to... LB: Oh, y-- SZ: It works, you know. LB: What's your biggest concern about this? Are you concerned about you getting it? SZ: I can't prove that I had it but I think I did. LB: Oh, yeah? SZ: And it hit as a big diarrhea episode, on the same day that I was just ready to leave on a bus trip to go to Philly -- LB: Oh, gosh. SZ: -- with the retired teachers. And I thought I could get a nice breakfast in and we were going to leave around 11:30. And after breakfast, I had to get home for something, was li-- "I think I have to go." And it was like little bit unusual. And then, as I... And you hate to cancel. Because it was an expensive trip. It was going to be a day trip, a special restaurant opening just for us, the day, and see this show at the -- I think it was at the Kimmel Center -- and back. And I felt so bad. And so I kind of cancel. And I'm so glad I did, if that wa-- LB: Yeah. SZ: My family doctor can't prove I did. And I guess I can't prove I did. But when I looked at other people's symptoms... Which lasted most of January. But when you live alone, you can stay at home and basically you're isolating anyway. LB: So were you sick for most of January, then? SZ: Yes. LB: Did you have a sense of smell? SZ: I don't remember that. LB: They say... SZ: But I do remember my appetite was down. LB: Well, that's a big thing. Yeah. SZ: You would barely eat like half a sandwich and it was like you could barely get through that. And then you'd have to wait a while and eat the other ha-- And normally, that's nothing. So that was one of the things. I did go to see the doctor twice. And my regular doctor was out for over a month. So I saw another doctor in the practice. And at first, she put me on strong antibiotics. And it seemed to help but, at the end of the antibiotics, it was kind of back to where it was. And I went back in the second. "Oh, we can't do that again. So we'll try prednisone." LB: Oh, yeah. SZ: And that seemed to help a little. But I think, by that time, I was getting out of it. And knew it was some kind of viral thing and it was going around. But they didn't have any name for it or anything. Just kind of stay, you know, quiet that way. And then that's what I did. LB: Wow! SZ: It got better by itself-- The biggest thing was the coughing. And there was one night of chills. I remember that. LB: Well, it sounds like those are the symptoms. I guess that you could, at the hospital, have them check to see if you have antibodies in your blood. SZ: Yeah, but... I have to wait for my next doctor visit. And at least it'll be in person. My last doctor visit was over like something like this. LB: Yeah. Yeah. SZ: And there are some nice things there too. You take a big blood test. So they know all the good stuff. But you don't have to get weighed. You don't have to, you know... LB: (laughs) SZ: They can't check your blood pressure or anything, which usually is good anyway. So it... I have to wait a little bit that way but... LB: Yeah. SZ: I mentioned it to the doctor and she thought that, "No, you had something else, bronchitis of some kind." Well, it could be that too. Because a lot of bronchitis symptoms are similar too. And I was really pushing it. LB: I don't know. The things that you're describing, though, they're some... I've had bronchitis and I didn't have diarrhea from it. SZ: But then there's some articles that have been published that say some people start there. Other people, no symptoms. Other people, it starts as a respiratory. LB: That's true. Yeah, all sorts of ramifications of it. Well... SZ: Well, luckily, I don't think I have any lasting ones. LB: Well, if you had had it, you'd gotten on the bus with all of those people -- SZ: Yeah! LB: -- you could have really spread that around. That would have been... Even with bronchitis... You can get that from other people too, of course-- SZ: Oh, I make a decision. I waited till the bus came. But then I told them, "I'm not going." They said, "Well, we have a seat right next to the bathroom, in the back of the bus." I said, "No." LB: Really? (laughs) Oh, n-- SZ: And as it was, I went home and I took it real easy. And I could eat again. And everything kind of went back to being fine. But I never had it where... All your insides were rumbling there, while we were waiting for the bus. It was... LB: Well... SZ: I don't want to chance this, so... LB: Well, it sounds like, if you did have it, it wasn't too devastating. It went on for a long time but... I know a few people who've had it who've said it was absolutely soul-crushing for them. And they said to me, "Do not get this." It was... You know, people who said, "If I had been by myself, I would have died. Because I couldn't even get to the bathroom. I couldn't even crawl to the bathroom, I was so weak." So. But then I know other people who've had it who have had no symptoms at all. And they were positive. So, you know, it's the thing. So what's your biggest concern during the pandemic, in terms of the LGBT community? What do you think about that? SZ: Well, we're all trying to survive. Yesterday I got to see part of the Reading pride festival online. LB: Ah. Uh-huh. SZ: And I didn't get to see the whole thing, because it turned out... I just found out at the time that there was a Black Lives Matter meeting in Emmaus. LB: I... SZ: I've been helping with those. I've been doing a lot of protesting lately, the past few months. And that's keeping me busy. And we always wear masks and do things. It started with that Tuesdays for Toomey -- LB: Yeah. SZ: -- now kind of branched int-- Because officially, that group had stopped. But then there's a core bunch of the group that still meets at the same place and still... Now it's kind of turned into an anti-Trump group. And then... They meet at different places, not always at Toomey's office. There's some other places too. And then there was the Black Lives Matter. I was in that rally just last week, walking through the city. We started at Seventh and Hamilton, ended up down at the jail. LB: Saw part of that. Yeah. SZ: Yeah. And so that was interesting. And I shared some pictures of that with Steve Libby. LB: I saw that. Yeah, I saw some of those pictures. I really wanted to be at that march. But Trish is so at risk that I can't really take that risk. But I'm very proud of all of the people that spoke out about that. I've talked to a lot of them. And it was a well organized thing, I think, and effective. It was relatively effective, which I think is good. So how about being able to see Rachel Levine, on the videos tha-- Dr. Rachel Levine, who's our Secretary of Health? That's been a pretty positive thing for me. I don't know about you. How do you feel about that? SZ: Very positive. I don't watch every single day. But sometimes you're at your phone and, all of a sudden, "Oh, the governor's coming on." And usually, Rachel's on. And she's very good. And it's a very public spot. And usually the advice is right. I'm very enthusiastic about the governor too. Because he's under a lot of pressure. LB: What...? SZ: But everybody has kind of agreed, that I've talked to, that you got to get the virus under control first, before you can really start opening things back up. LB: Well, as a teacher or as a retired teacher... Because you were a teacher for a long, long, long time, in the Allentown School District, and from school to school. So you really traveled around from school to school. What do you think about opening schools? SZ: They should stay online, no matter what it is. I know it's not as good as in person. And I was sharing some things on Facebook about this. But if I think of my last schedule that I had, I had two schools. I was six days at one school and two days at another school. And in eight days, eight school days, you saw every child once. Now imagine if, around day eight... You know, the first few days -- probably going to go really well. But then, all of a sudden, if one teacher even has it, you've now exposed the entire school -- LB: Yeah. SZ: -- entire schools. LB: Yeah. SZ: And it's like, well, it wouldn't be everybody, because there's going to be some kids that are going to stay online, every day, anyway. But now, all of a sudden... And then all the other teachers were exposed. And the thing is a classroom teacher usually stays in the classroom. So they're being, you know, self-contained. But the way we work, where the art teacher, music teacher, phys ed, and library -- and they would go to the rooms. Well, a separate gym. They would go to -- the phys ed tea-- in the gym. But everybody else came to the room. And if somehow something got on your stuff... Then as a music teacher you're thinking, "Well, the most important thing is getting them to sing," in elementary school. Well, you're not going to be singing too much with a mask. You're not supposed to be. You can't really do choral speaking. And then like, "All my rhythm instruments!" Well, maybe, if you bring two to each class and this class only uses these two and this class uses these two and they disinfect them every day. LB: Oh, gosh. SZ: But instead of a whole bunch of instruments... I used to have a whole bag of stuff. Well, now it's like, and you could maybe do that. Now you're down to "Well, we could show videos" -- LB: (laughs) SZ: -- "We could clap, I guess -- that's still okay -- and do things that way." You could talk about music. But you want to actually have them have a chance to perform, have a chance to try to sing. Because after elementary school, some of them aren't going to try anymore. That's their big thing. And then you think about in art, you kn-- "Oh, you want scissors. Oh, you want this. You want stuff that they're all going to touch?" You know. And then you go right to next class. There's no time. That forty-five minutes goes by pretty fast. And you got to get your materials back. You pack up. You roll. And it might be on the other side of the school. It might be next door. And most times, it's in between. And it gets quite rough. So my hope is that they would stay at home. I know it's not as great and I know the parents have to worry about babysitting and everything. But it's still... Least we're going to get them to survive. We're in survival mode right now. LB: Yeah. What about...? Have you talked to...? Because you were talking about going with other retired teachers on a trip. So... Or... And this teacher that -- you were talking, before we got on Zoom today -- that you went for a walk with... Who's a current teacher? SZ: Yes. LB: Is that true? And does that person sort of feel the same way about this stuff? Is that somebody you worked with? SZ: Yes. We were on a team together. And they go through so many teachers fa-- it's amazing -- that... You know, I'm -- only been out for three years and yet we're down to like maybe thirty percent of the teachers at my main school are still there. LB: Yeah. SZ: And others have transferred to other schools. Some have retired. And some just left teaching, it got to be so bad, and so much pressure that way. But that is one of the few teachers that's still there. And we've known each other for many years. And so... But you hear about all the online meetings but nothing's been said. And it would be nice for them to know. Are we going to stay online? It would save the school district a lot of money. They have to go out and buy this stuff and adapt the buildings. And then, "Oh, we're not doing that this year." LB: I can't imagine that... I mean, if the guidelines for the state are that you're not supposed to be in a circumstance where there's more than 250 people... Well, really, a school, even though you have classrooms, the kids are circulating around, though. So I don't know if we have -- SZ: The... LB: -- any schools that, you know... I mean, plus it's kids! For heaven's sake! What teacher isn't, you know, exposed to illness all...? That's one of the reasons the teachers stopped teaching, because they're sick all the time. They have to develop that... You must have had a really major immune system, from being around kids singing in your face for the last thir-- the thirty-three years. SZ: That too. I wasn't always in the classroom. I also did strings for twenty-five of those years too. Sometimes it was strings and a classroom. And sometimes it was... The last six years or so, it was just classroom -- LB: Yeah. SZ: -- bringing along instruments. Imagine bringing bell sets now. That's not going to g-- Rhythm instruments. No. So you can't really do any instruments that you could pass to them. I guess you could bring instruments that, you say, "Well, this is a tambourine. And this..." Yeah, but we don't play it. And you really can't do that. LB: But [the?] thing is that, if there's a teacher that's seeing every student, that teacher is potentially infecting every student. SZ: Yes! LB: So, I mean -- SZ: I've been hearing articles ab-- LB: -- how do you keep that from happening, even if they're wearing a mask or something, even if everybody's wearing a mask? The virt-- You know, when you talk about kid-- You can't keep kids from yelling. Y-- SZ: Or playing with their ma-- Or they forgot one today. Or they lost it somewhere. Or somebody stole somebody else's there. It begins... It sounds funny at first but it's like, "Yeah, this is..." And it's not just at elementary, can be all levels. LB: Yeah. I don't see how they can do it. SZ: I don't either. LB: And with the numbers going up the way they are, it's impossible, I think, to... I mean, it's going to kill kids. And it's going to kill their families. And, you know, I know a young person who had it, who is a college student, actually, who didn't have any symptoms, came home from college. She was sent home from college. She was there with her family. And then she spiked a big fever and infected every one of her family members. Everybody in the house got it, including her grandmother, who is over 90. They all got through it. But it was incredibly hard. And someone said to me, "Is she all right now?" And I said, "She's all right now." I mean, she's physically all right. She feels weak -- the kid. But she's not going to be all right, if she just killed her grandmother -- SZ: No. And -- LB: -- never going to be alright. SZ: -- they were mentioning what could happen, you know. Within the first two weeks or so, all of a sudden, you know, grandparents died at home, teacher died at school, and a lot of kids got sick. LB: Yeah. SZ: And, you know, everybody wants to go back. And I've talked to some teachers that want to go back. Yeah, but right now I'd rather keep the kids safe than anything else. LB: Is there any teacher that would think that they wouldn't be exposed? I mean, I can't believe that there are teachers who wou-- I mean, they see how easily it is to get sick in school, you know. They've closed schools just for flu, in the past, or for measles outbreak or for something. SZ: Or today, for heat. LB: For what? SZ: Heat. Some of our buildings aren't air con-- LB: Oh, heat. I... SZ: If you're in Florida there, it gets brutal! LB: Yeah. Yeah. SZ: And then some schools used to have it that, if a room was air conditioned, you could bring the kids down from the highest-temperature areas. Well, you got nothing done. After a while, it was like... When you're talking heat index over one hundred today... It was like, "No, that's not so..." Because we have several buildings in the district there's no air conditioning. Or it breaks. And then it's like -- or, "Oh, downtown says it's seventy in there." It's like, no, it's eighty-five and there's nothing happening. LB: (laughs) Yeah. SZ: But the computer said... And appare-- Even the janitors can't move some of those things. Or you have to call downtown. And downtown will adjust the computer in your building. LB: Gosh. SZ: That's how it was when I was there. See -- right on danger... LB: When I was in junior high, at a very affluent community in Connecticut, there was no air conditioning in our junior high. And kids would pass out, just be sitting at the chair and, all of a sudden, they'd get really red and fall on the ground -- especially if they were sitting near the windows. Because it was those 1950s buildings, with the big windows, that the... I think Union Terrace sort of liked like that. They were probably built -- SZ: That's the fifties. Yeah. LB: -- yeah, built in the fifties. And just this glaring heat. It's like one hundred and two degrees. And somebody... SZ: If you're on that sun side, you're just going to die. LB: Yeah. Yeah. SZ: And then what are you going to do, as a teacher? You know, are you going to present new material? Are you going to review what you did? At the beginning of the year, you can't really review anything. Everything is new material. And you can't really do much. When afternoon comes, you're just stuck. Union Terrace was one of the schools that used to have it where -- there was a new addition put on -- some of the rooms had air conditioning but most didn't. And it never got rectified, that way. We had other buildings where they had a chance to put air conditioning. But there was always the excuse, that usually came out to money. So they would put in air handlers. But that's not an air conditioner. That's just a fan. LB: Yeah. So what that would do is create situations, particularly in September, when it can still be very, very hot, where they would try to move kids -- or normally they would move kids to rooms that had air conditioning. So it'd be more kids in one space. SZ: But then there you are, as a... You're a kid in the air conditioned room. And now other kids are coming to join you. And then, are they going to kick you out? LB: Yeah. Yeah. SZ: Or are they going to have two or three classes doing it? Or you could have a video. And you got three classes in the air conditioned room. Again, it's that social distancing stuff. LB: Impossible. SZ: It's not going to work. So... But I have one friend who is going to be seventy-four in December, and hasn't had it or anything. But his wife is very -- she has lupus -- much younger than him. His son is nineteen, just finished L-Tri-C and going to Kutztown. And if one of those gets it and brings it home, that could really... But he's had two heart attacks, got diabetes -- almost seventy-four. And, oh, yeah, he wants to go back. Like, well... So there are some teachers, they want to go back. But it's like, why? LB: Yeah. Really. It's unrealistic, I think. Anyway. I mean, I can understand why people want to resume school. Some kids are just devastated. They really want to be around their... They're missing parts of their life. Where's the...? SZ: The social development part. LB: Yeah! And there's no question. And their parents have to go to work. And they can't go to work, because their kids are at home -- and their little kids -- you know? -- their seven-year-old kid at home. So... SZ: And have like a daycare center, that would have a number of computers, that you could like have a big room and just like cubicles for the kids. And, "Okay... Oh, you're going to Harrison-Morton. Well, you watch this one. And you're going..." The kid could sign in, and be at whatever school. They could be... LB: Yeah, but the problem is that the -- SZ: And they're daycare-ready too. LB: -- yeah -- the problem is, though, that those kids will still infect each other. And -- SZ: They could. Yeah. LB: -- it's impossible to not h-- SZ: A huge room and a lot of computers. LB: I don't see how they could do that. I don't see how you could have a group of twenty kids in one room and not have them carrying an illness, no matter what they did. I mean, you just can't keep kids from... It's like saying, "Well, you know, of course they'll wash their hands every single time they go to the bathroom." SZ: And who knows what's going on at home? LB: Exactly. Yeah. SZ: Something could come in from home. Or something could go from school to home and now, all of a sudden, at home they're sick. And... LB: So the... So let's see. So we talked about where it's... Oh, here's a good question. Have you spent any time on queer dating or hookup apps? SZ: Not really. Because it doesn't matter if they're in another country or in your state or just down the road. The chance of actually meeting somebody, it's a bit of a risk. LB: Yeah, that's true. That's true. SZ: So... LB: Yeah. I think that's affecting people. SZ: Although I like what they did in England. They mentioned that, if you could get somebody that you knew and you could work out a roommate arrangement -- LB: Yeah. SZ: -- that way you had the companionship, and you never... And as long as you were there for two weeks or more and you both k-- Well, that was an idea -- from England! LB: Huh! What's...? SZ: But I didn't see anybody actually do that. LB: You seem that you are having enough contact with people. But, you know, you do usually hang out with people. So... SZ: And online I have a lot of people that I hang out with. LB: Oh, that's good. That's good. That's a good thing. So in general, has it affected your life pretty significantly? What's the biggest effect that it's had on your life? SZ: Well, biggest thing is you do have to stay in a lot more. And I had a piano-playing job in a restaurant. LB: Oh, yeah. SZ: That... The restaurant has kind of tried to open now. But the latest thing is they're down to twenty-five percent. And it really wouldn't pay them t-- In fact, it was on the latest thing, "No live music." And then several places in the area, about two weeks ago, they did have live music, when a number of bars opened and a number of restaurants opened. Now it's -- no. So, and then I was think-- Last year... I also play trombone. And I'm hoping to play with some of the local bands as a substitute. I did that last summer. Well, that's not happening either. And do have friends, retired teachers, who used to do a lot of playing. They're doing nothing. LB: So you mean that they were playing the trombone with like the Palmerton, you know, band or the...? SZ: Well, it could be. But we have four city bands in Allentown -- LB: Yeah. Right. SZ: -- plus the Macungie band. There's a Catasauqua band. There's a number of o-- I play with a polka band. They're supposed to do something up in Coplay in September and October. And it's li-- I don't think that's going to be happening. But until it's canceled... Because if you think about how it is, it's a very tight, enclosed room, you know. And the people are all the at-risk ones. You're talking seventy on up. And, oh, yeah, it's nice. They all dance. And that's great. They're wonderful people. And they know all their dances. It's kind of neat to play pieces and say, "These people actually know what the dances are." LB: (laughs) SZ: And they know this stuff. And that's very nice. And that's why we kind of keep the traditions alive. But it's like -- it's really unsafe now. Now, that same place has an outdoor pavilion. But you're talking September, October? You know. That's kind of rough. And then we have a big job up in the Poconos, almost near New York State. And that's in October. And, yeah, we have a date. It's a beautiful facility. It's a beautiful area. But again you're talking probably several hundred people. Then they're going to bring in German dancers. I just don't think that's going to happen this year. LB: Well, several hundred people. I mean, they've already said that, in Pennsylvania, it's going to be green for the rest of the year. And that's a maximum of two hundred and fifty people. So unless they think that it'd be less than two hundred and fifty, you really can't do it. SZ: Or you'd have to limit how many people come. And that's a private party, that one that's up there. LB: No, like if you're saying... Two hundred people -- or two hundred and fifty people is dangerous but two hundred and forty-nine is not? SZ: You have to cut it somewhere. LB: Pretty unrealistic, to say... You know, what's the danger? Well, people could give it to each other, if there's two hundred and fifty people. Well, they're going to give it to each other if there's two hundred and forty-nine people too. They're going to give it to each other. Frankly, in a dance like that, which sounds wonderful, actually... But people are breathing hard and singing and coming close to each other, moving in the same space over... It's just the worst possible thing you could do, I think. SZ: Mm-hmm. So that's why I'm hoping it's going to not happen. And that's why I'm happy that the church is doing something. And then, with this cutback, we were, again, making plans to reopen in August. And now it looks like, well, maybe September or later. And as the church musician, I'm looking ahead and thinking, "What are we doing to do for Christmas?" And all the things that happen around the Christmas season... It's like, well, I think we're just going to, you know... And then, when you find out and you have to go through the denomination, you have to go through the state guidelines too -- but when you find out what you can actually do in a church service, live, according to the official rule, there's not much at all. And so they're getting more to watch the video than they are if you actually showed up. LB: Yeah. That's true. I've talked to a couple of people who have said that they've really enjoyed the video. In fact, at our community center we have a book group. And I think the most people we ever had come to the book group was eleven, maybe twelve. But we just had one that had fifteen people there. And the... And I said to Trish that I saw somebody in the book group that I haven't seen for four years -- I said. And I think this person is just a little shy. But this was really comfortable for them to come. In some ways, it's not a bad idea to occasionally run these things that way too now. SZ: You mean like a Zoom meeting or...? LB: Yeah. It was a Zoom meeting. And everybody's on the screen. It's like The Brady Bunch, you know. And you would -- people our age understand tha-- You know, and everybody's talking. And people take turns talking about what they... But it also is, if you're a person who doesn't want to talk, you just say, "Well, (laughs) I didn't read the book. I'm just going to listen." And everybody just lets them. I mean, there's no pressure, because you're not there, you know. So people feel more comfortable, I think. Now, we have some people who have said that they don't want to do it on Zoom. And Adrian has said, "Well, you know, some people won't do it on Zoom. They only will do it in public. So if we can open for the public for some of our support groups, that would be a good thing." But I don't know. Because, you know, if we make somebody sick, it's going to look awful bad. SZ: And if it stays in the air or got on something they touched and then somebody else touches it... Bathrooms... LB: Yeah. The bathrooms are one of the most serious places, too. Because if you have somebody use a restroom and then... Especially, multiple-stall restrooms are really bad. We don't have those at the center. But that's a particularly bad thing. Because you're in that little cubicle. And then, you know, there's lots of people... Like a restroom on the highway is particularly bad. So... SZ: Also at the park, at Lehigh Parkway. There's at least two that are open. But there's a whole lot more that are either boarded up or somehow closed. LB: Huh. SZ: And... LB: Huh. So you've been going to the park a lot, to go for walks? SZ: Two to three times a week. LB: That's nice. SZ: And sometimes the walking partner's there. Sometimes, if that's not available, I do it by myself. And sometimes what I've done als-- I live so close to Trexler park. And sometimes I'll go there. LB: Yeah. Do you feel safe, when you're walking around? Do you see people without masks or...? SZ: Almost everybody now is not wearing a mask, at both parks. And what used to bother me was the joggers (breathes heavily) -- LB: Yeah. SZ: -- breathing at you, you know. But there haven't been too many joggers. And a day like this, it's like no. But today, there was a lot of bicycles going around. But again, a lot of them, they're not really huffing and puffing. They just put in tenth gear or something. And they go flying past you there. And that was it. And we do get off the road to let somebody go by. You feel like a leper, unclean or something. You see people get off the road there when you walk by, and all that. But it's worked out well. I've done this now for like almost six months. And I haven't gotten anything from that. And you make sure... If you don't feel good, well, we're not going wa-- You really wouldn't want to go walking. Even one of our regular walks, of two miles, it's... If you're not feeling well, you're not going to -- you have a hard time make that. LB: Right. Right. That's two laps around Trexler park. SZ: Yeah, it would be there. LB: Well... SZ: So I take it easy, when I'm by myself there. And I was going the wrong way for a while, there. You have to go clockwise. LB: Yeah. SZ: And I remember the old days, when I had my bike and you could go counterclockwise. And I kind of liked that way too. Because at the very end, you come to the bathroom. LB: (laughs) SZ: The other way, you start at the bathroom. It's like, "No, I don't need that." Then you have to go around more than once, to get back to the bathroom -- which is open, at Trexler park, which is nice. There is only one. And you get to see the general. And you get to see the nice view. LB: Uh-huh. And Jack O'Diamond. SZ: Oh, yeah! Yeah -- LB: That's Trexler's horse -- SZ: -- the horse. LB: -- he's sitting on. So what other qu--? So you were looking at the possibility of going to a convention, that was a queer convention, in New Orleans then, huh? SZ: Well, actually, there was three conventions I could have gone to. LB: Oh, that's the... SZ: And they all were moved into next year. LB: Ah. What were they? SZ: Well, the one is called the American Theatre Organ Society. And they were going to go back to Indianapolis. And I'd been there. Just about like five, six years ago, they had it there too. And not much has changed, really -- LB: (laughs) SZ: -- in Indianapolis in the past five or six years. But... And you have a small group. But there again, there was one up-and-coming person and he's from... Where...? It's not Ireland. Scotland. And I heard recently that, well, he's not doing concerts, he's no-- I hope he's keeping in shape. But he plays piano very well. Bu-- he took theater organ on the side, and was wonderful! That was one of the big promising things. It's like now, well, you can't give any concerts, you can't do anything. And then another friend of mine, who plays theater organ as well as classical organ, he's not doing anything. If your church isn't doing... And we have churches in the area here that basically... They do it from home. It's like video mashup of something. I have another friend who used to be a pastor, who is now a church musician himself. And he brought a keyboard from church to his home. So he doesn't have an organ. He just plays this keyboard. And that gets put on their service somehow. And he hasn't been at his church in six months. I had a substitute, recently, who confided in me that this person hasn't played the pipe organ in six months -- but did very well. But it's kind of like you get a rough time, when you can't get on an instrument. LB: There's really nothing else like the pipe organ or the organ. SZ: Yeah. It kind of hel-- I have an organ at home. But I haven't really needed to use it. Because I get out to chur-- And that was a nice thing. Because when this started in March, there was a special thing that you were allowed to be on the road to get out to church to practice. If anybody would have stopped me, you know... Because you were supposed to now... But there was a dispensation that you could... Well, then, if you're out at church, you could stop at a convenience store and get a little something to eat. And then that was... So you kind of could get out. But you had to -- yeah -- be careful of it that way. But then... So, luckily. But they've been clamping down, to say, "Look, the only people are there, the people that do these video. That's... And the church secretary. That's it." It's... LB: Well, don't put people at risk. That's definitely the thing. So you were talking about... Do you know anybody...? You did talk a little bit about people. And certainly you were talking about Liam, who's had this. Have you known anybody else who has had the virus? You talked pretty much about that already, I guess. SZ: One that I really knew was Liam. Other people -- LB: No. SZ: -- really didn't actually get it. That's good. I mean, you don't want to know anybody that did. But you just... I thought that I might have had it. And the symptoms, I thought, sounded that way. But there's always different things. And until we have testing, nobody even knows. You're right. An antibody test might say yes or no. LB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. SZ: But then, that was many months ago. LB: So how do you think this is -- think it's affecting your mental health? You feel different? I m-- do you feel despair or great hope or about the same? Or what do you think? SZ: Overall, I keep so busy each day... LB: That's good. SZ: I'm kind of thinking that I'm kind of actually settling into retirement, the way it really could have been, you know. The ideas... I'm still busy with teaching. I'm still a teacher advocate and trying to help the kids, at least from this angle, and doing more protesting than I ever did before. And you're still playing. That's the important thing. You're still playing. Yeah. And that's ni-- I miss some of the other stuff I did before, [that all goes?]... And I'm home a lot more. And that was something I worried about in the past too, that, with school and with all the playing stuff and the church stuff, you're never home. And how it's like, you know, I actually sit on my recliner and watch the TV -- LB: (laughs) SZ: -- something I rarely did. And that's why I got rid of Netflix. Because I'm never home and I'm spending this money for this thing and... And now you could. But it's li-- I have enough, you know, going on that way. So. I keep busy, that way. LB: What was the restaurant that you were doing a gig at? SZ: Brick Tavern Inn, in Quakertown. And they have an outdoor patio. And it's very nice. And they'd always talked about, you know, "You bring your own keyboard." And I'd be willing to do that. But now you're twenty-five percent capacity. And you're stuck on the weather. I mean, weather today is really hot. Other weekends, in the past, it's been really, you know... It's over a mountain. So the weather we have here, they may have the same thing or not. And sometimes it comes really fast, because they're kind of close to the mountain. And, all of a sudden, there you are with your keyboard-- your electric keyboard and it starts to rain. Now what? LB: Have they pretty much, then, not been open? Or are they...? SZ: They were open for takeout. And then lately they tried to do something indoors and on the patio. And now it's the twenty-five percent thing. So I don't know. But I keep in touch there. And they know what I'm... I sent pictures along. Or I say, "Hi. How ya doin'?" But... They had five musicians. So it's like I don't think that's coming back anytime soon. LB: Oh. SZ: And so... I feel sorry for my other friends that are in -- or play instruments like, say, drums. Well, you need a band. A drum solo is nice for two or three minutes at the most. And then you need something else. Or bassoon. Well, you need an orchestra. You need a small group. By yourself, that's... But piano's nice, because... Piano and organ, you can be your one-person band that way, and it's nice. At least I'm playing. That's the important thing. And that's what I'm happy about. LB: Yeah, there's not a lot of bassoon-solo music to play, to entertain people. SZ: A group, there is but not by yourself. But... LB: No. Don't think that would work. And drums too. Can't have dining entertainment with just drums. So that would be an issue. So let's see. What do you think...? Oh... Yeah, I think we've hit everything on here. Let me ask you this. If you imagine that this video, which is going into the archives at Muhlenberg...? And I've been doing a lot of these. I told you before that I did a bunch of AIDS -- ones about AIDS. And I did ten of those. And those were pretty interesting. Oh, and you were... You've already talked about some of your protesting stuff. I've asked everybody what they were concerned about with regard to Black Lives Matter and with regard to political -- SZ: The election. LB: -- and the election. And you've talked about that. So someday, in the future, thirty years from now, somebody's going to look at this, maybe, or forty or fifty years, to see what it was like for individuals during the COVID-19 epidemic. What do you want to say to that person, to tell them what it was like and what it's like for your experience, at this point? And, you know, we're in the middle of the ep-- not even in the middle. We're at the beginning of the epidemic. We don't even know what's going to happen. SZ: Well, in the first wave. LB: Yeah. SZ: The only thing I would have... And this might not be the closest answer to thi-- Bu-- when I heard that this happened back in 1918, it kind of gave me a little bit of hope that, "Oh, we have been through this before." And some sources I looked at kind of said that it's almost like every hundred years, that there was something big in the 1800s, 1700s, 1600s, that there was some kind of plague or some kind of viral or -- infection that went and killed a lot of people -- but if you can actually go back quite a ways. So people have gotten through this. LB: Yeah. Yeah. SZ: It makes you wonder. It's like I... What...? We never heard, much, of a pandemic, you know? You heard about the Titanic but you didn't hear much about the pandemic. And so it's l-- we will get through this. There's been a number of -- I guess they're called memes -- LB: Yeah. SZ: -- that have been on there. And one was saying that, "Well, gee. It's like there's three things at once." We got the pandemic, we've got a depression starting, and we've got racial unrest, at the same time. Whereas before was one at a ti-- now you got all three. And so it's made it a very trying time for everybody. Because it's not just... And this has been like a tornado, the way it hit. Some people hardly get hit at all -- and I would say I'm one of those -- and, I'm sure, some that got hit not at all and others that lost everything. And in the next little time, they're going to find out that there's no money for rent. And eventually they put this off. But it's going to be there. Is there another stimulus check coming or not? And what are the terms of that going to be? And you look at what other countries have done. You look what little has been done here. For the very rich, they've got billions of -- and that way. And certain brands, you've learned now, it's li-- We're never going to that restaurant, never going to buy that brand of jeans -- and other things that way. And it's like, you know, you cons-- LB: Talk about the... I think this is an important thing. Because Trish was just saying that somebody said that, when you go into a store right now, the only beans on the shelf are Goya. Because no one is buying them. SZ: Good. LB: And that's because, for people in the future watching this, the CEO of Goya made some very, very pro-Trump statements. And Goya is a brand... Twice, and unapologetically, and gave lots of money to his campaign. And then one of the things is that Goya products is mostly purchased by Latinos, in the United States. And Trump has been particularly negative toward Latinos -- who are the people who buy these beans, or, you know, the other Goya products. So there is an actual significant effect -- it's happening already -- that... Sometimes, you know, people will talk about a boycott and nothing really ha-- you know, it's not that much. Because there's so much going on. Boycott Amazon. But then everybody has to use Amazon, to be able to... SZ: Or Facebook was another one. LB: Boycott Facebook, yeah. But everybody's using Facebook. But the circumstance with Goya is that the actual demographic of people who use Goya... Also, there are absolutely substitutes for that that are not bad. So it'll be interesting to see, you person in the future, if the Goya company is affected by this or if they get rid of the CEO. I don't know what his position is. But... But it's an interesting thing that you brought up the beans. Don't buy those bean anymore! SZ: Yeah. What I'll mention online too is that Ruth's -- Chris -- Steakhouse -- LB: Yeah. SZ: -- a very fine steakhouse... And they try... And then they got caught. So they gave the money back. LB: Yeah. SZ: That the conditions weren't all the... Oh, they knew. And there are plenty of other ones. But that was one that was really publicized. It's l-- S-- I know there's one in Philadelphia and there's several others. It's like, there's other steakhouses. LB: Right. Right. And other people who've made that money. That's true. And it's bad. It's... What we're talking about is the huge stimulus to corporations that went to individual corporations. It was supposed to go to small businesses that were really struggling. And it was millions and millions and millions of dollars, hundreds of millions of dollars, that ended up going to some big, enormous corporations, that really didn't need the money. And then they acted as though -- "Oh, well, we didn't know that this..." And some -- and you have to hand it to them -- some of them gave the money back. Others have... SZ: Got shamed into it. Yeah. LB: And so at least they did those things. They were a little bit more hip. But... Yeah. It's the interesting thing, about the beans, or about the restaurants or whomever is doing stuff. But I think, you know, we have to... It's an economic circumstance. Yeah. So that's a great thing to talk about for the future. And so is there anything else you want to say or toss in or talk about here? SZ: Not really. It's been very nice talking with you. LB: It's been lovely talking with you! I don't get to see you enough. And I've known you -- SZ: They too-- LB: -- for the twenty-five years, more probably than that. So it's wonderful to talk to you. And you look chipper and... SZ: You like the color? Huh, huh, huh? LB: Yeah! Yeah, I got the same shirt on, I think, as you, but just a different color. So there you go. And it's great to see your little doggie, who's happy. And I'm glad you have your dog, to be able to pet and hug while you're... SZ: Oh, that helps. This is my sixth consecutive pug -- LB: (laughs) SZ: -- since 1975. LB: It's a pug-a-thon! SZ: And this was a stray also too. And he was thin. And I want through the Pug Group. And ten people wanted this one. LB: Huh. SZ: And I just keep after the person, and, it turned out, the person who was in charge of doing this. And somehow... He was in the police department for a while. Nobody came to pick him up. And, all of a sudden, one day -- it was a Sunday afternoon -- I get this call -- was, "Well, I've decided to pick you." "Okay. And I'll come over to Easton." "Oh, no. We're coming over to you." LB: Oh... SZ:They wanted to check out the backyard, make sure you are who you say. And they had one of the K-9 police cars. And her husband came. Big car, big Ford LTD, and all the special stuff you'd have for the police car and this little pug in the back. LB:(laughs) SZ: And she brought him over. And so I had to give him a name. I had to think ab-- I didn't want to do Pugsley again. Every now and then, you'd think of the dog. You think Pugsley. And I've had two Pugsleys in a row. I didn't want to go for three Pugsleys in a row. So I had to pick a new name. I picked Atlas. Because he seemed much stronger. He seemed a little bigger than the other pugs. And... He was well-adjusted. So there wasn't much to train or anything. LB: Oh, that's good. SZ: And he... They're very stubborn. They're set in their ways. And so you learn to adapt to him. It's usually easier to do it that way. LB: Well, he's lucky to be in a... I would presume you have air conditioning, complete... SZ: Oh, yeah. Got a new system, two years ago. And I'm so happy. LB: Yeah. That was smart. I wish we had it. We have units. They're not -- or not in the house. I'm in the third floor and I don't think I can really cool it up here. I can make it not devastating. But I can't make it actually cool enough to just go, "That's cool." The second floor, we can do that. But we can't do it on the third floor. It's too hot. But anyway. So it's great... SZ: When the electric bill comes... LB: Pardon me? SZ: When the electric bill comes. LB: Yeah. This is the first day that we've used our air condition-- except in my office, in here, because it's so hot here. But, yeah. We can usually stand it pretty hot. But it was too much, last night, was over one hundred. And it was just too much. We did run the air conditioner, to sleep by. It was so hot, though. Trish got up at five o'clock to water the garden -- SZ: Ah! LB: -- because it was so hot outside. It was in the nineties in the night. So. It got down into the eighties. But... But it's supposed to cool off a little. SZ: I'm hoping. LB: Anyway, it's been lovely talking to you. I've really enjoyed it. It's been great to see you. You look great. And keep up the good work, Steve. You know, you've been such a loyal activist, for many, many years. I always think of you as kind of a Mr. Rogers voice, with the intensity of Mr. Rogers, as well, in terms of always being there to really make change. And I was just talking -- I just want to tell you that I've been interviewed for the archives, the oral history archives. I'm talking about all the stuff that we did for the ordinance and passing the ordinance and everything. And I was talking about how we would go to the on-site things, where Frank McVeigh was, and that time that I called you and you and Tom [Enby?] came over really fast. We were at the Ag Hall. You were there like in minutes. And it was so terrific. And that we also went to the churches, to try to... Because they were getting... SZ: Just thinking of tha-- LB: And how that guy was there with a video camera, because he thought, if he videoed us and we were representing the gay side, that we would be embarrassed. And you and I both turned to the camera and waved. (laughs) And you've always been -- as a public school teacher, I've always pointed to you as someone who is so willing to be out and an inspiration to students. And terrific that you've done that. I mean, you know, you had letters to the editor, identifying yourself as a public school teacher, when we didn't even have the rights. So you were really out there. Good for you. I really appreciate all that work that you did. Well, thanks! SZ: Thank you. LB: Well, you're welcome. So we'll see you around campus. And I'm going to turn the record off now. And thank you, again. END OF VIDEO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
Duration
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01:03:12
Dublin Core
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Steve Ziminsky, July 20, 2020
Description
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Steven Ziminsky talks about how the current COVID-19 pandemic is affecting him as a retired teacher, a musician, and a church music director who is featured on Zoom church services. He also discusses exercise and civil rights and political activism.
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PH40_28
Subject
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
Date
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2020-07-20
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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https://lgbt.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/76a5bcfc195c7399788b9e0cee4005ee.png
c99d3c363eb7065bb8532b60063b0e84
Dublin Core
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
An account of the resource
In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Liz Bradbury
Interviewee
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Ricardo Almodovar
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Viewer)
https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_27.xml
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COVID-19
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5.4 July 20th, 2020 Ricardo Almodovar, July 20, 2020 PH40_27 01:08:39 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 COVID-19 Lancaster LGBTQ+ Pandemic Family Allentown Ricardo Almodovar Liz Bradbury video/mpeg AlmodovarRicardo_20200720_video.mp4 1.0:|28(5)|48(8)|87(2)|116(12)|142(13)|159(3)|181(7)|204(12)|261(9)|282(11)|303(2)|325(4)|344(14)|369(10)|397(14)|409(3)|435(14)|457(16)|484(14)|500(2)|515(16)|544(8)|562(16)|587(7)|613(11)|636(8)|659(17)|677(5)|693(13)|710(5)|731(5)|756(3)|776(9)|797(3)|820(14)|841(12)|866(4)|890(2)|911(4)|934(2)|969(16)|1000(2)|1010(3)|1024(5)|1046(5)|1071(12)|1088(14)|1111(13)|1132(8)|1157(4)|1186(3)|1208(6)|1220(4)|1239(10)|1262(2)|1277(14)|1290(9)|1316(5)|1335(12)|1355(3)|1372(7)|1386(11)|1396(7)|1410(3)|1429(4)|1447(2)|1468(15)|1491(5) 0 https://youtu.be/4fUbg17RmDk YouTube video 0 Interview Introductions RA: I hope I’m camera-ready.
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 ; LB: You look terrific ; you look good. And it’s really good ; the lighting is really good, you’re in a good place, that’s great. So I’m going to read you this stuff. I have to be sure that my [drink?] (inaudible). With this project, Bradbury Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury and I am here with Ricardo Almodovar -- I spelled your name wrong -- Almodovar. Is that right?
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 ; RA: Almodovar. Almodovar.
 ; COVID-19 ; Introductions ; LGBT ; Liz Bradbury ; Ricardo Almodovar 0 209 Almodovar's Living Situation LB: Okay, and here, so I already sent you some of the questions and stuff. We can really talk about whether you want. But one of the things we start out with is, in the place where you live, who is there with you, sort of quarantined or locked down or in that space?
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 ; RA: My partner and I.
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 ; LB: Okay, the two of you. All right, that’s great. So are you working now?
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 ; RA: Oh, and in addition to that, actually, my brother had COVID, and he’s currently working on renovations with his house so my mother has been staying as well, so we have an additional room so there’s three of us. 
 ; COVID-19 ; Liz Bradbury ; Quarantine ; Ricardo Almodovar 0 380 Almodovar's Job at the Local Shelter RA: So, folks aren’t allowed visitors, so folks are to mostly stay in their rooms. The only areas that are shared are the common areas. We have two lounges, an adult lounge, a family lounge, and then a veterans lounge. And so they have to schedule that in advance with their case manager. We have case managers onsite that are licensed social workers that helps with budgeting, money management, house search, job search, and other issues, basically bridging that gap from homelessness to permanent sustainable housing ; that’s ultimate goal.
 ; Job ; Lancaster ; Liz Bradbury ; Ricardo Almodovar 0 569 Transgender Women in the Military LB: It’s a one-in-two chance. So if you do come in contact with somebody and since you’re giving services for people who are trans, or who are veterans, and you know, if they say to you that they’re transgender, or you recognize it, maybe, you recognize that they’re trans, and they’re over sixty-five, chances are really good that they’re a veteran. Liz Bradbury ; Transgender ; Veterans ; Women 0 723 Family Struggles with COVID RA: Both, both reasons. He is also in the military, and actually, since they’re renovating the family house, I actually lived there when I was in college before I moved to Allentown. In fact, I left that household to move to the Lehigh Valley, and then my partner and I moved back for work. And then in that, I guess, somewhere in that timeframe, my brother decided to renovate the house. He realized one problem led to the other, and was like, let’s just tear down the whole thing, except for the bare bones, which is pretty much what the house was. And then he was staying with my father, and he ended up contracting COVID through his work, sadly. And his experience was terrible ; he was under a ventilator for two weeks. The whole family was terrified of what would happen. And mind you, there was no way to visit, so I’m basing this on virtually. Thankfully that happened, you know, in about two months ago, and now he’s been almost a month out of the hospital. And, but you know, with my mom being here, I feel like she’s in a safer place, and she undergoes dialysis ; she’s diabetic, so she’s already immunocompromised ; she can’t risk it enough as it is.
 ; Allentown ; Brother ; COVID-19 ; Family ; Military ; Ricardo Almodovar 0 948 Almodovar's Experience with his Father's COVID-19 Situation RA: Yeah, so it just happened, you know he came from home one day scared and saying really bad chest pain and lack of breath, really. And so he called up his doctor, and they advised him to just stay home. So he stayed home for a while, he couldn’t work, he couldn’t go anywhere. Then it just got worse and worse. I would say after a week, they finally had to rush him to a hospital. And they had to put him under a ventilator, tubes going up both nostrils. Very painful procedure. (laughter) At least from what I heard. In our family, we’ve been communicating via, or through video, both from WhatsApp and Facebook Chat. And so, you know, it’s sad to, you know, see someone, you know, especially a parent, under such pain and having to deal with, you know, something like this, and being under a ventilator for not just one but two weeks, over two weeks, actually, two weeks and about two days or something like that. A very long time.
 ; COVID-19 ; Father ; Hospital ; Ricardo Almodovar 0 1144 Biggest Fears About Getting COVID-19 LB: Yeah, so everybody that I’ve spoken to, I’ve spoken to a lot of people, their biggest fear, and I’m going to ask you what your biggest concern is but it sounds like this is what your biggest concerns it too, is that for people that are your age, that they’re going to get it and then give it to somebody. There’s a lot of young people, I mean, a lot of young people are at risk. I just was talking to somebody who knew of a young person who had really serious contemplations, and they were younger ; they were twenty. But their biggest concern is, you know, getting it and giving it to someone in their family, so that the loved ones ,and I would guess it sounds like one your concern is too.
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 ; RA: Yeah, right, because so many people are asymptomatic, and I don’t know if I may be or who knows if I have it now? But my mom wears her mask every day. Like I’ve mentioned, she undergoes dialysis three times a week. They won’t let her on the bus unless she wears a mask, potentially through a program she gets from transportation to and from the dialysis clinic. And she comes back just fine, and I’m sure at the clinic, she gets her treatment done, they go above and beyond with making sure that everything is sanitary.
 ; Asymptomatic ; Concerns ; COVID-19 ; Liz Bradbury ; Ricardo Almodovar 0 1374 Comparing Gardens LB: We have a big vegetable garden, so you didn’t get any carrots, they just didn’t make it, is that the thing?
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 ; RA: No, well I tried to germinate them or put them in the little cup and let it grow slowly. But we had one really bad rainstorm, and I should have just brought it in, and they just drowned. So I had cucumbers, carrots, green peppers, and so on. Now I just have basil, tomatoes, and I actually, interestingly enough, have done orange plants or mandarin plants. (laughs) I found I have somewhat of a green thumb, I guess half a green thumb, because I have much more experience with indoor plants. I have about seven, eight indoor plants right now, and somehow, I found a sprout growing out of one of them. Mother-in-law’s tongue I guess is what it’s called. (laughs) And it had --
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 ; LB: Which is kind of a politically incorrect thing to say. There are other names for that which I think we should think of, and I can’t remember what it is. But it’s more Latin, like a Latin designation, like the Latin, because really it’s kind of rude. But (laughs).
 ; Basil ; Carrots ; Cucumbers ; Gardens ; Green peppers ; Liz Bradbury ; Ricardo Almodovar ; Tomatoes 0 1550 COVID-19 Rules with Family RA: And my mom wants to spend time with other relatives, so sometimes, she’ll go to my cousin’s house, for instance, to help babysit. And so, you know, when it comes to family, like we like to remain close. But other guests, not so much, like acquaintances, we like to keep a distance.
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 ; LB: Yes. It’s tough, but I think that there, you have to do a certain amount for your family to make everybody feel like there’s cohesiveness I think, there’s no question. So you have a partner so I’m not going to ask you about -- I have a question on here that talks about dating apps. So I don’t know whether you’re using that or not, but I’m not going to ask you anyway, since you have a partner, and I’m, you know, making my moral presumption on that. Let’s see, so in terms of you being worried about the virus, do you have illness, you know, like preexisting conditions that worry you, or are you more concerned about other people around you or what do you think?
 ; COVID-19 ; Family ; Guests ; Liz Bradbury ; Mother ; Preexisting Conditions ; Ricardo Almodovar 0 1714 The Most Frustrating Part of the Pandemic RA: I think it’s, I would say the most frustrating is just the uncertainty of the situation right now not knowing, or the unknown. And that creates a lot of anxiety for other people. I’m not an anxious person. (laughs) I would say for the most part I’m stress-free. I believe there are so many alternatives to dealing with stress and anxiety. You know, I practice my own person of, I guess, a makeshift-type yoga and meditation almost every single day, and I’m very blessed to have, you know, the love and support of, you know, friends and family members, and even, I feel like now I’ve been trying to take action more than ever, you know in addition to helping out at TLC, I’ve also applied for grants for a community action project. And they’re helping to fund initiatives to not just help TLC, but work on highlighting the needs of low-income communities, and in additional to TLC, Crispus Attucks, and it’s a black-owned organization focused on equity and inclusion and they have a food bank every week and they provide these folks in the southeast of the city, which is the most condensed and racially-diverse part of the city. And so through this grant, I was able to purchase carts, pushcarts for folks to use for necessary items, and work with a graphic designer to produce a video to let folks know that there are people who are going through a difficult situation, whether it’s having to go to a foodbank, or being homeless. And what you can do to take part, whether that means donating food, or Crispus Attucks does need, you know, people with muscle, folks that can help back these boxes, and I myself have packed, I would say at this point, hundreds of boxes. in the last few months. You know, they give out every, like I said every week, every Wednesday at that, at least 300 boxes. It used to be where folks would have to come in and show their ID, but now it’s just, that food is provided to the Central PA food bank at no cost, without any, you know, folks just, take your food, take what you need. If you can’t use it, then pass it along to your neighbor. And so my goal was to not just provide those pushcarts to help out folks, but to also highlight those needs and what folks can do to take action. Family ; Meditation ; Ricardo Almodovar ; TLC ; Yoga 0 2025 Leadership Cohort for Lancaster Clean Water Partners RA: For sure. And then what also motivates me to do that is that, I recently signed up for a leadership cohort through the Lancaster Clean Water Partners. It’s like a year program regarding leadership development and how to take collective action for clean water, sustainability and conversation in Lancaster. It’s a grant they were provided through Penn State and the Lancaster Conservancy. Like I said, it’s the Clean Water Partners. It’s a partnership, and so we meet monthly. We used to meet in person, but obviously we had to transition to Zoom. And so, I’ve always wanted to do sustainable work and conservation, and I love the environment, and you know, learning about what’s being done in Lancaster, and what I can do to, you know, help to take collective action for clean water, is one thing that I’m passionate about. And going out to the park and also participating in this leadership cohort, you know, makes me more appreciative, not just, you know, mentally, but also emotionally, and even physically, for that matter.
 ; Clean Water ; Lancaster ; Lancaster Clean Water Partners ; Penn State ; Ricardo Almodovar 0 2120 The Difference Between the Counties Clean Water RA: Kind of both. So each session is different. We had a county tour, for instance, where we visited local water treatment facilities. And then another one, we also visited a water sewage treatment facility, and what is being done for water quality. You know, we all drink water, we all take showers, or at least we would hope, so. But where does that water go? How is it treated? And even what businesses are doing with that water. For instance, what are beer distributors or brewers doing, because they heavily depend on water quality. Water in Lancaster is going to be different from water in the Lehigh Valley or even across the country in California, and so depending on your recipe and what the water is made up of, that’ll change the flavor of not just beer, but products if you’re a business owner.
 ; California ; Clean Water ; Lancaster ; Lehigh Valley ; Ricardo Almodovar ; Water 0 2383 Friend From Morocco LB: Oh, who’s from Morocco, and another friend of ours went to visit her in Morocco, visit her family, and they went to the part of the sea there, part of the Mediterranean that’s there, that comes up to the coast, and the entire beach area and everything was completely unusable, just completely, just devastated, like you couldn’t even, like the worst, horrible pollution that you could even imagine. You couldn’t even put your foot in it, you know? And it’s a beach ; the beautiful beach area. But it’s just totally fouled, and what we’re doing in the United States is exactly the same. It’s just, well, you know, it doesn’t matter, we’ll just do it a little bit more, and we’ll just me, and we have that, we have no leadership that is stopping that from happening. Let’s talk a little bit about Black Lives Matter, because I don’t think we can talk about COVID-19 without talking about -- 
 ; COVID-19 ; Liz Bradbury ; Morocco ; United States 0 2494 Housing Situation LB: Your house looks like, just from those bricks, it looks like it’s from the 1800s.
 ; RA: I wouldn’t, I couldn’t tell you. We would love to buy a house. Sadly as LGBT people of color it’s a little more difficult. And plus we want to do more traveling. Maybe in my mid-thirties, I just turned thirty. Or rather, I’d be thirty-one in February, so I’m in no rush to buy a house. House ; LGBT ; Liz Bradbury ; Ricardo Almodovar 0 2724 Police Brutality LB: Yeah, there’s no question, that was just a few blocks from my house where that happened with the police officer. I’ve worked with the police before and I’m not surprised by that happening, and I’m not surprised by them already dragging their feet with regard to what (inaudible), and then they did it. And then they said, well not this time. And I’m not surprised that they released a nine-minute video that happened to be from a CCTV across the street, and that nine-minute video, I don’t know if you’ve seen that, the longer video, is actually goes, the police officer when he’s first handcuffing your guy with the other people after they’ve thrown him to the ground, after they’ve kicked him to the ground, which is what he did, he said, the police said that he fell down, but then you can see that that’s not true at all, they kicked his feet out from under him and pushed him to the ground. They’re trying to handcuff him and the guy kneels on his neck. But then, but people say well, you know, but then, about two minutes later after he’s been handcuffed completely there the police are no longer touching him, and the police officer says something to him and he raises his head up about an inch, and the police officer knees his head right back down into the ground again. And he’s handcuffed, there’s absolutely, you know, so even the ridiculous sort of excuses of the first action, there was no excuse for the second action. Absolutely assault ; it’s against this person who was completely unable to move at all, and then to have a police officer do that. And it’s a terrible situation because I think that, you know, it’s based on white supremacy but it’s also based in police power. Those two things are so closely related. But there are also a lot to do with the training of the police which causes anybody who’s a police officer to feel like (inaudible) it’s even if they’re not white, frankly. And working with guys who are unbelievably scary.
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 ; RA: Yeah, and the police enforcement has a long history of discrimination and brutality and if you look at its inception, you know it was born too, out of a need within the white community to capture escaped slaves. And you can see some of those roots, or remnants are still, you know, still exist, whether people realize it or not. George Floyd ; Liz Bradbury ; Police Brutality ; Ricardo Almodovar 0 2890 A Stance on Gun Control LB: And then, people will say that the militarization of the police started during the civil rights movement in the 1960s. You know, these people have rights ; now we’re going to have to have the police officers to have machine guns and AK-47s, and dogs, and stuff like this, which actually, it was a different kind of attitude in the earlier parts of, where every police officer didn’t carry a gun, for example. Most police officers didn’t carry a gun, and in other countries where police officers don’t carry guns. So.
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 ; RA: Yeah, I don’t carry a gun, and I don’t feel safe around someone that carries a gun. There should be no reason why you need a gun around at all whatsoever. AK-47's ; Guns ; Liz Bradbury ; Police Officers ; Ricardo Almodovar 0 3083 Risks of Opening Up Schools LB: And you know, it’s only one kid. And he was also talking about, this is pretty interesting, he was talking about how most inner-city schools, and I’m sure this is true in Lancaster public schools too, they all don’t have air conditioning. A lot of inner-city schools in Allentown are not air conditioned, or only parts of them are air conditioned. And even some of the more recently built buildings are not air conditioned. So as a result, they will take kids who are in rooms where it’s very, very hot, and they’ll take all the hot rooms and bring them down to the air-conditioned rooms. So now you don’t just have one class of kid, you have fifty kids. And how do you keep those kids from not infecting each other? Or you leave them in the room where it’s one hundred and one degrees, or you bring them to a room where there’s fifty kids, and a bunch of them have their masks down like this because they don’t know how to wear them. So, it was really interesting what he said ; I hadn’t even thought about that. And he said, oh yeah, I think about that every day.
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 ; RA: Yeah, and then the whole, going back and forth right now, school districts don’t know whether to open or close, and there’s just so much controversy.
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 ; LB: Yeah, and it’s really based in greed. I mean, the only reason to open schools is so that you can let parents go back to work so that they can do minimum wage jobs to support rich people. Because truthfully, you know, we need to be able to -- parents need to be able to stay home with their kids right now. And yeah, they need money. But who really needs, you know? I was talking to one of the people I interviewed that has a daughter who has a congenital heart defect, and she was called back to work because she’s an essential worker because she’s a waitress ; she’s a food service person, where she makes below minimum wage and the restaurant wasn’t using precautions. There were people that were sick there, and her mother said to me, if she gets sick, she’s going to die. But if she doesn’t go to work, she’s going to lose her job. Because they told her, if you don’t come to work, it’s your resignation. She said, but you’re not -- nobody’s got a mask on here. I’m coming in contact with all these people, you know, particularly wait staff because people who are eating are not wearing masks. So, and you know, this is not somebody who’s making $300,000 a year as an essential worker. The most essential workers are the ones who don’t make any money.
 ; Allentown Schools ; Lancaster Public Schools ; Liz Bradbury ; Ricardo Almodovar 0 3379 Pennsylvania State Politics RA: So the statehouse is majority Democratic ; however the state senate, not so much. So we’re having some trouble, and I recently met an open queer person of color, Malcolm Kenyatta from the Philadelphia area, and he’s been championing COVID relief and raising the wage, and talking about, you know, the hypocrisy within the Republican Party, and highlighting that it’s not a political issue ; it’s a human issue. It just so happens that Republicans time and time again are trying to take away our healthcare, and they don’t want to pay it. And sadly, they have the wealth, they have the representation, and the power, and so we want a more evenly distribution of that wealth, and we’ll do that at any cost necessary, or rather, any means necessary.
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 ; LB: I think it’s true, you know, people have often, and I’ve been fighting for equal rights for the LGBT community and other communities for my whole career, and for years and years and years, and a long time ago, when we were fighting to pass the anti-discrimination ordinance in the city of Allentown, which was the first passage that included gender identity in the state ; nobody else had gender identity anything, not Philadelphia, anything, it was just Allentown. The effort to pass it started in 1998, and we were successful, and finally successful in 2002.
 ; COVID-19 ; Democratic ; LGBT ; Liz Bradbury ; Republican ; Ricardo Almodovar 0 3687 American Jobs in Today's Day and Age LB: They’re incredibly short-sighted. It’s short-sighted (inaudible) because if you have a living wage, a living minimum wage, it improves and makes a robust economy ; it just does. So if you’re looking at it purely from the viewpoint of greed, which is often the other side’s viewpoint, pretty much it’s the entire viewpoint, it’s incredibly short-sighted to say, well we’re not going to spend the money to give this population, this worker population a living wage because it will come out of our pockets. But it really doesn’t, because if you pay people living wage, frankly, that's the whole basis of capitalism. Now you have people, even one of the most dastardly capitalists in the world, Henry Ford, who started Ford cars and changed the whole circumstance, he said, I want to produce a car that my own employees could buy. And so, you know, it has to be a good, cheap thing, and I have to pay them enough so that we can continue this American project which is based in capitalism. Capitalism has become this enormous seesaw of the incredibly rich and the incredibly poor, and the poor are the workers. And one thing we’ve totally seen about COVID-19 is without people who are making minimum wage, everything grinds to a halt. We can’t do anything you know? Now you have to spend millions of tax, billions of tax dollars to just make it so that this population is still going to be able to come back to work when things open. I mean, that’s speaking from a totally greed basis, which is a terrible basis to look at anything. But it’s ridiculously short-sighted to say, well we’re not going to pay you, but we want you to buy our computers. Or we want you to buy food in the grocery store. But we’re not going to give you any money to do it. Well, that’s not going to work. You know, and we also know that corporations, or companies that are justice-based will actually do that and it doesn’t hurt their profit margin at all. Like Costco, or Ben & ; Jerry’s or something like that who just pay a living wage. They pay a living wage, and they pay their workers, and they pay for their worker’s healthcare, so what comes out is a real sense of support. You know the workers themselves have a sense of loyalty to their employer, and they work hard, instead of thinking, well, they don’t care anything about me. You know, it’s just a bad circumstance ; it always comes from greed.
 ; Capitalism ; COVID-19 ; Economy ; Liz Bradbury 0 3975 Inspiration for the People Going Through Struggles
 ; RA: Yeah, sure. So things might look a little stark ; we’re in the middle of a global pandemic. We have constant rioting, we have violence. But in the midst of all that, there is good, there is love, there is support, support for black folks, for LGBTQ-plus folks, for folks in the Latinx community, for refugees, for folks that are disabled. We’re all in this together, and it’s July 20th, 2020, but I hope that when you see this video, things are much better, and I know that, you know, with the work that we’re doing now, we can together collectively develop policy solutions for some of the major problems we’re facing, not just today, but hopefully, by the time you see this, these problems will be long resolved.
 ; Latinx ; LGBTQ+ ; Pandemic ; Ricardo Almodovar 0 4073 Closing Remarks LB: Yeah. Well thank you very, very much for talking to me and taking an hour and a little bit more out of your day to do this. I really appreciate it very, very much and everybody who will see this will appreciate it as well. And I love everything you said, and you give me a great deal of hope, so thank you for doing that. And I appreciate it, so what you’ll get a transcript of this, and as soon as they’re finished transcribing it, we send them to another college and they fix that, and then they give it back to us, so thank you again, and have a great day, and have a great weekend. Keep up the good work.
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 ; RA: Yes, great. Thank you so much for inviting me, and I hope we stay in touch, and I’m sure we’ll cross paths again soon.
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 ; LB: I hope so. Okay, bye-bye.
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 ; RA: All right.
 ; 0 MovingImage In this interview, Almodovar and Bradbury talk about how people's lives have been impacted under the pandemic, and how LGBTQ+ people fit in a pandemic. They talk about the problems in Allentown and Lancaster while even mentioning their own families. Ultimately, this interview generally talks about the effects of the pandemic in both the Allentown and Lancaster community. Ricardo Almodovar 2020-07-20 RICARDO ALMODOVAR: Okay. LIZ BRADBURY: Now I'm going to turn my audio backup record on too. And -- RA: I hope I'm camera-ready. LB: You look terrific ; you look good. And it's really good ; the lighting is really good, you're in a good place, that's great. So I'm going to read you this stuff. I have to be sure that my [drink?] (inaudible). With this project, Bradbury Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury and I am here with Ricardo Almodovar -- I spelled your name wrong -- Almodovar. Is that right? RA: Almodovar. Almodovar. LB: Yup, there we go. To talk about his experiences in the Lehigh Valley, in the Greater Lehigh Valley, Scranton-Stroudsburg area, LGBT community during this time of COVID-19 pandemic as a part of the Lehigh Valley's LGBT community archive. We're meeting on Zoom on Monday, July 20th, 2020. So, thank you so much for your willingness to be speaking with us today. To start, can you please state your full name and spell it for me? RA: Yeah, sure. My name is Ricardo Almodovar, R-I-C-A-R-D-O, Almodovar, A-L-M-O-D-O-V-A-R. LB: Okay, and can you please share your birth date? RA: My birthdate is November 15th, 1989. LB: Could you say the last word again, because it disappeared? RA: Oh, November 15, 1989. LB: Okay. Let's see. Okay, and what town are you in? RA: I currently live in Lancaster City. LB: But, when I'm taking this picture of you, you are in Lancaster? RA: Correct. LB: Okay, so that's fine. So, because there's a part that says where are you, and where is the interviewee, so I wanted to know where that is. So this part is the consent part, so I'm going to read you this stuff. Do you consent to this interview today? RA: Yes. LB: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, made publicly available online in searchable formats? RA: Yes. LB: Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for educational purposes and other formats, including films, articles, websites, presentations, and other formats we may not even know about today? RA: Yes. LB: Okay. Do you understand that you will have 30 days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview, identify any parts you'd like to delete and/or withdrawn from your interview, or you could withdraw the whole interview from the project? RA: Yes. LB: Okay. So this is just some identity things. What is your zip code where you are? RA: 17602. LB: Okay, and what is your age? I think you indicated that. RA: I am thirty. LB: Okay, and how do you identify with the LGBT community? RA: I identify as a gay cisgender man. LB: Okay, and here, so I already sent you some of the questions and stuff. We can really talk about whether you want. But one of the things we start out with is, in the place where you live, who is there with you, sort of quarantined or locked down or in that space? RA: My partner and I. LB: Okay, the two of you. All right, that's great. So are you working now? RA: Oh, and in addition to that, actually, my brother had COVID, and he's currently working on renovations with his house so my mother has been staying as well, so we have an additional room so there's three of us. LB: Oh, I see. Okay, so are you working currently? RA: Yes. LB: Are you working at home, or at work? RA: Yes. A little bit of both. So yeah, well my background is community organizing and Spanish language, and so I lived in Allentown for three years working for Make the Road, and then I moved out here. I just finished a fellowship with the DNC, the Democratic National Committee, and now I actually recently, as of tomorrow, I accepted a new role as an organizing associate with We the People, the project of the Pennsylvania Budget and Policy Center. LB: Oh that's great, cool. And so, and will you be working on that from Lancaster, is that the thing, or do you have to go to Harrisburg to do that? RA: Well, it is virtual ; it is based in Harrisburg and so, I don't foresee traveling anywhere quite yet because of COVID. Everything is via Zoom, or Google Hangouts, or many of the multiple video platforms. But then, in addition to my organizing work, I do work part-time at, I help out at a local shelter here in Lancaster called in the Transitional Living Center. And so, as an essential worker, we are there on-site providing front-line support for folks that are experiencing homelessness and trauma, including veterans, families, children, folks going through recovery. A two-unit building, and so 24-hour facility, and we basically just man the front desk providing support and whatever they may need in that facility. LB: Are you doing that now? RA: Yup, just on the weekends though. LB: Okay, is it hard to be social distanced and stuff in that kind of arrangement? RA: So, folks aren't allowed visitors, so folks are to mostly stay in their rooms. The only areas that are shared are the common areas. We have two lounges, an adult lounge, a family lounge, and then a veterans lounge. And so they have to schedule that in advance with their case manager. We have case managers onsite that are licensed social workers that helps with budgeting, money management, house search, job search, and other issues, basically bridging that gap from homelessness to permanent sustainable housing ; that's the ultimate goal. LB: Yeah. So, would you say that, have you come in contact with a lot of LGBT people there, or any? RA: Actually, surprisingly yes. And they have program under Tabor Community Services and they have a very strong religious background. LB: Oh, what's the program again, because I didn't hear that. Say it again? Community -- RA: Tabor Community Services. T-A-B-O-R. And so, they got a lot of heat, not necessarily recently, but over the years. And so, my partners, interestingly enough, he is there full-time while I'm only there part-time. And so he's openly gay, they know we're together and engaged. They're very open and supportive. And then we have another openly lesbian black woman who's also on staff. And so the front desk staff which is who we are as program reporting assistants -- LB: You're pretty queer. (laughs) RA: Excuse me? LB: You're pretty queer, the front desk staff. RA: Yes, yes, which is great. LB: Yeah, it is. RA: And so, they've been working on getting the participants' demographic much more diverse as well. We've had a few lesbian couples -- actually, not very many gay couples, interestingly enough. But mostly, you know, women with their children. And they prioritize children, obviously. LB: And with the veterans, are you seeing transgender veterans? RA: That is a good question. Not that, and not any of that have been open. LB: Okay. Because you know, transgender of transgender women who are over sixty-five, one out of two of them, or fifty percent of them, are veterans. You know that? RA: Yeah, I didn't know that. LB: Amazing, isn't it? But it's really true, particularly from the Vietnam era. So if you come in contact with a transgender woman who is over sixty-five, chances are very high that she's a veteran. RA: Oh, wow. LB: It's a one-in-two chance. So if you do come in contact with somebody and since you're giving services for people who are trans, or who are veterans, and you know, if they say to you that they're transgender, or you recognize it, maybe, you recognize that they're trans, and they're over sixty-five, chances are really good that they're a veteran. RA: That's interesting, I never really thought -- LB: Yeah, it's remarkably true, actually. And that's, as a result of that, it means that a lot of transgender people over 65 are getting healthcare from the VA. And it sounds -- RA: Yeah, that makes sense. LB: -- pretty good. It's not the worst possible circumstance for them, so that's true. Not as good now as it used to be, but you know, it's not terrible ; it's not a terrible situation. RA: Yeah. It's just tough because Lancaster, when it comes to the nonprofit world is heavily controlled by religious organizations and institutions. I mean it's really common across the board when it comes to nonprofits. And that's not like a judgment or a critical call or anything ; it's just, you know, as long as their beliefs don't infringe on our rights. LB: Right, right, right. It's not necessarily a bad thing ; it's just that when they use their religious exemption to not be supportive, that's the dangerous thing. So we have religious organizations here in the Lehigh Valley too, as I'm sure you know, that are fine. They're fine. And other ones who will say, well because we're a religious organization, we're not going to support gay people, and it's interesting, or trans people. It's interesting that in Allentown's law, it specifically says that if an organization gets money from the city, it doesn't matter what their religious circumstance is ; they can't just go against the Allentown nondiscrimination law. It's actually written into the law, so yeah. So you were saying that, did you say your mother is in your house? RA: Yes. LB: Yeah, and is she there because it's safer for her, or just because your brother is working on the house? RA: Both, both reasons. He is also in the military, and actually, since they're renovating the family house, I actually lived there when I was in college before I moved to Allentown. In fact, I left that household to move to the Lehigh Valley, and then my partner and I moved back for work. And then in that, I guess, somewhere in that timeframe, my brother decided to renovate the house. He realized one problem led to the other, and was like, let's just tear down the whole thing, except for the bare bones, which is pretty much what the house was. And then he was staying with my father, and he ended up contracting COVID through his work, sadly. And his experience was terrible ; he was under a ventilator for two weeks. The whole family was terrified of what would happen. And mind you, there was no way to visit, so I'm basing this on virtually. Thankfully that happened, you know, in about two months ago, and now he's been almost a month out of the hospital. And, but you know, with my mom being here, I feel like she's in a safer place, and she undergoes dialysis ; she's diabetic, so she's already immunocompromised ; she can't risk it enough as it is. LB: Wow, so that's amazing stuff. Does your brother know how he got it? Were there other people in his workspace that were sick? Was that the circumstance? RA: It wasn't my brother ; it was my father that got it. LB: Oh your father, yeah. RA: From his job. And he's on the verge of retirement ; he's a long-time labor worker. He's worked in factories all over Lancaster County mostly, and so I guess the company wasn't moving fast enough regarding some of the safety protocols regarding COVID, and he ended up getting it. Thankfully, they were able to pay him throughout this whole process, and now they're taking precautions but it's like from the very beginning, a lot of companies and businesses and even organizations were very skeptical about the gravity of the situation and how serious it was. LB: Wow. Had he had other kinds of conditions that made him susceptible to it, or -- RA: He's diabetic. LB: Perhaps how old he is? RA: He was born in 1960, what would that be? (laughs) LB: He's sixty. I already know that because of when I was born, so. RA: Okay. (laughter) LB: This is a birthday year for him. RA: Yes, he just turned sixty actually, the 13th a few days ago. LB: Oh, there you go. Okay. So did he have some kind of existing condition that caused him -- I mean, just people over sixty are at risk ; I know -- RA: Yeah, that, and he was diabetic, and he suffers from high blood pressure, but that's about it. LB: I don't know that those things necessarily make you that much more susceptible to COVID, but wow, that's a terrible thing. And did it happen fast? Or you know, did it just, oh, I have a cold or something like that? I haven't talked with any of the people who were so close to somebody who was sick, so I'm sort of probing. RA: Yeah, so it just happened, you know he came from home one day scared and saying really bad chest pain and lack of breath, really. And so he called up his doctor, and they advised him to just stay home. So he stayed home for a while, he couldn't work, he couldn't go anywhere. Then it just got worse and worse. I would say after a week, they finally had to rush him to a hospital. And they had to put him under a ventilator, tubes going up both nostrils. Very painful procedure. (laughter) At least from what I heard. In our family, we've been communicating via, or through video, both from WhatsApp and Facebook Chat. And so, you know, it's sad to, you know, see someone, you know, especially a parent, under such pain and having to deal with, you know, something like this, and being under a ventilator for not just one but two weeks, over two weeks, actually, two weeks and about two days or something like that. A very long time. LB: Yeah, but he's okay? Relatively okay now, I'm guessing? RA: Yes, he's a firecracker. He's been wanting to like get back to normal lives right away. But you know, his health has to come first, and he has to, you know, take things easy ; he can't breathe as well as he used to, and plus he was a smoker. He quit about ten weeks ago. LB: Wow, yeah. RA: So he's much better. I wouldn't say he's fully recovered ; I'd say -- LB: It took a long time to get better. RA: Yeah, and they say that COVID-19 could have caused permanent lung damage. LB: Oh yeah. RA: But we haven't noticed, or rather, it's too early to tell whether it is going to cause -- LB: Yeah. Does he seem -- is he scared about going out and stuff? Does he think that he's safe now because he's had it, or does he fear that he's, it's interesting because sometimes people can say you could get it again and.. RA: Yup. So he's been pretty much enclosed in his house. He lives with his wife, and my brother now with the renovations and so, it's just one big happy family right now. So at least he's not by himself ; at least he has people he can talk to. I don't know, who stares, video chat, and (inaudible), you can make a quick phone call. So it's not completely isolated, but sadly I haven't been able to see him in person quite yet, but I know hopefully soon, you know, I've been trying to take the lip precautions. I can't imagine if I were to, you know, go visit, and you somehow I'll bring it over and my mom gets it. LB: Awful, wouldn't it be terrible. RA: Yeah. LB: Yeah, so everybody that I've spoken to, I've spoken to a lot of people, their biggest fear, and I'm going to ask you what your biggest concern is but it sounds like this is what your biggest concerns it too, is that for people that are your age, that they're going to get it and then give it to somebody. There's a lot of young people, I mean, a lot of young people are at risk. I just was talking to somebody who knew of a young person who had really serious contemplations, and they were younger ; they were twenty. But their biggest concern is, you know, getting it and giving it to someone in their family, so that the loved ones, and I would guess it sounds like one your concern is too. RA: Yeah, right, because so many people are asymptomatic, and I don't know if I may be or who knows if I have it now? But my mom wears her mask every day. Like I've mentioned, she undergoes dialysis three times a week. They won't let her on the bus unless she wears a mask, potentially through a program she gets from transportation to and from the dialysis clinic. And she comes back just fine, and I'm sure at the clinic, she gets her treatment done, they go above and beyond with making sure that everything is sanitary. LB: Yeah, it seems like they're working very hard to do, in places like hospitals and stuff are really safe, and in comparison to other places that you might have to go to, like have you been to other places where you didn't feel so safe? RA: Yeah. LB: I don't know. What do you -- RA: Well, Lancaster is -- and I'm sure it happens, you know, in Allentown. So we have our city council members and our mayor who wants to keep businesses closed for health reasons, and they're majority Democratic and progressive, whereas our county commissioners are Republican and want to open businesses back up. The state government, Rachel Levine and Tom Wolf want to close businesses, or leave them closed, whereas the federal administration want to open up businesses, and so all these levels, and there's so much confusion, and thankfully with the work that I do, I'm been trying to clear up some of those misconceptions and let folks know that, you know, we have to take the steps in order to protect ourselves and our loved ones whether we have it or not. And that is beyond politics. LB: Yeah, well it's wonderful to hear you say that ; it makes me feel hopeful. (laughs) So, do you have other friends that you're talking to? You know, are you talking to other people online, or have a circumstance where you can see people social distanced? Or what do you think about that? RA: Yeah, and so I, like I said, we live here ; this is our little house, this is our backyard. We have a nice little setup here. We have our little fireplace there, I have my little plant there, there's my car. I've been growing some tomatoes and some basil. I try to grow carrots, tomatoes. Or not tomatoes, I do have tomatoes, other vegetables, and they didn't turn out well, they ended up -- LB: Didn't get any carrots? RA: But what happened? LB: We have a big vegetable garden, so you didn't get any carrots, they just didn't make it, is that the thing? RA: No, well I tried to germinate them or put them in the little cup and let it grow slowly. But we had one really bad rainstorm, and I should have just brought it in, and they just drowned. So I had cucumbers, carrots, green peppers, and so on. Now I just have basil, tomatoes, and I actually, interestingly enough, have done orange plants or mandarin plants. (laughs) I found I have somewhat of a green thumb, I guess half a green thumb, because I have much more experience with indoor plants. I have about seven, eight indoor plants right now, and somehow, I found a sprout growing out of one of them. Mother-in-law's tongue I guess is what it's called. (laughs) And it had -- LB: Which is kind of a politically incorrect thing to say. There are other names for that which I think we should think of, and I can't remember what it is. But it's more Latin, like a Latin designation, like the Latin, because really it's kind of rude. But (laughs). RA: Yes. Anyway, I found this sprout growing out of that plant, and I planted it in my -- I don't know if you can recognize it, it's right here. It just grew out of it, and my friend told me to just pick out a leaf and smell it to see what it smells like. And it smells like citrus. LB: Well there you go. Well that's great. RA: So it might be, I'm assuming it's an orange, but who knows? LB: Yeah, well once they grow, that's beautiful. So by the time that grows at the end of the season, you can dig it out and bring it inside, and it'll be lovely. Great. RA: Yeah. So I've been using this time to do some more planting. This is the first time I ever started to garden, and it's not huge ; it's not impressive quite yet, but that's just, you know, one little pot that I've been trying to work. LB: Sure, yeah. It's a good time to do that ; I think that growing things like that makes you feel really much more in control of the world. You know, there's something about that, that if you can eat something from your garden, you feel really like, okay I got this. (laughs) RA: And I'm looking forward to it. LB: Well that's great ; that's so great that you're doing that. So, you're saying that you're inviting people over and they can stay farther away, or your family can (inaudible) or something like that? RA: Yeah. LB: That's great. RA: And my mom wants to spend time with other relatives, so sometimes, she'll go to my cousin's house, for instance, to help babysit. And so, you know, when it comes to family, like we like to remain close. But other guests, not so much, like acquaintances, we like to keep a distance. LB: Yes. It's tough, but I think that there, you have to do a certain amount for your family to make everybody feel like there's cohesiveness I think, there's no question. So you have a partner so I'm not going to ask you about -- I have a question on here that talks about dating apps. So I don't know whether you're using that or not, but I'm not going to ask you anyway, since you have a partner, and I'm, you know, making my moral presumption on that. Let's see, so in terms of you being worried about the virus, do you have illness, you know, like preexisting conditions that worry you, or are you more concerned about other people around you or what do you think? RA: I don't have any preexisting conditions. I'm more so worried about other relatives, and other people, particularly folks that are more susceptible like older folks or immunocompromised folks. So for the most part I am fine, but it's selfish of me to not take the necessary precautions (inaudible). LB: Right, right. What, when you're working with the people who are at the place where you're volunteering for and where your partner is working full-time, are you seeing people that are sick there, or are they indicating that they're knowing about people who are sick? RA: Well, we have not heard any reports of anyone getting coronavirus or any of them saying that they knew someone, which is great ; it's good news. No news is good news. But we have, you know like I said, we have, we were trying to mitigate further infection by having these policies like no visitors. We have an electronic thermometer to test every person every single day. We also have hand sanitizer, and a lot of these items are either donated or provided by the org. LB: Yeah. What's the most frustrating thing, do you think, that's happening for you? How are you the most frustrated? RA: I think it's, I would say the most frustrating is just the uncertainty of the situation right now not knowing, or the unknown. And that creates a lot of anxiety for other people. I'm not an anxious person. (laughs) I would say for the most part I'm stress-free. I believe there are so many alternatives to dealing with stress and anxiety. You know, I practice my own person of, I guess, a makeshift-type yoga and meditation almost every single day, and I'm very blessed to have, you know, the love and support of, you know, friends and family members, and even, I feel like now I've been trying to take action more than ever, you know in addition to helping out at TLC, I've also applied for grants for a community action project. And they're helping to fund initiatives to not just help TLC, but work on highlighting the needs of low-income communities, and in additional to TLC, Crispus Attucks, and it's a black-owned organization focused on equity and inclusion and they have a food bank every week and they provide these folks in the southeast of the city, which is the most condensed and racially-diverse part of the city. And so through this grant, I was able to purchase carts, pushcarts for folks to use for necessary items, and work with a graphic designer to produce a video to let folks know that there are people who are going through a difficult situation, whether it's having to go to a foodbank, or being homeless. And what you can do to take part, whether that means donating food, or Crispus Attucks does need, you know, people with muscle, folks that can help back these boxes, and I myself have packed, I would say at this point, hundreds of boxes. in the last few months. You know, they give out every, like I said every week, every Wednesday at that, at least 300 boxes. It used to be where folks would have to come in and show their ID, but now it's just, that food is provided to the Central PA food bank at no cost, without any, you know, folks just, take your food, take what you need. If you can't use it, then pass it along to your neighbor. And so my goal was to not just provide those pushcarts to help out folks, but to also highlight those needs and what folks can do to take action. LB: So, is there a TLC in Easton? RA: I couldn't tell you. I think I've heard of something (inaudible) -- LB: Is that a whole thick -- RA: -- but they're not affiliated. LB: Is it, oh it's not affiliated, okay, because it sounds like they have a similar program with the food distribution and stuff. RA: Well that's through Crispus Attucks ; TLC is the shelter. LB: Oh, I see. So is TLC a network across the state? Or one that's called TLC in Lancaster? RA: Correct, correct. And it's through Tabor Community Services, and they've been in existence for over thirty years. It used to be an old hotel ; it was called the King Douglas Hotel in Lancaster City, and so a couple purchased the building and just converted it into a shelter for those experiencing homelessness in the mid-eighties. LB: Oh, there you go. Looks pretty interesting. What -- RA: It's a little unique. LB: It is, although I think that that happens to hotels, or you know, places that have multiple rooms like that that are harder to figure out what to do with when they're older. So you've just described your mental health as pretty good ; you sound like you're in pretty good shape as far as that goes. RA: Yeah. LB: Are you getting exercise, or do you just normally have exercise from your job? RA: (laughs) Well I am lucky because I live walking distance to Lancaster County Central Park. And they have amazing hiking trails. The Conestoga River crosses right through the park. And so I hike at least four times a week, I would say, at least. And especially in the summer where it's nice. Even if it's hot out, just put on a pair of shorts and t-shirt, sneakers, good to go. LB: Good for you ; that's great that you're getting the exercise. RA: For sure. And then what also motivates me to do that is that, I recently signed up for a leadership cohort through the Lancaster Clean Water Partners. It's like a year program regarding leadership development and how to take collective action for clean water, sustainability and conversation in Lancaster. It's a grant they were provided through Penn State and the Lancaster Conservancy. Like I said, it's the Clean Water Partners. It's a partnership, and so we meet monthly. We used to meet in person, but obviously we had to transition to Zoom. And so, I've always wanted to do sustainable work and conservation, and I love the environment, and you know, learning about what's being done in Lancaster, and what I can do to, you know, help to take collective action for clean water, is one thing that I'm passionate about. And going out to the park and also participating in this leadership cohort, you know, makes me more appreciative, not just, you know, mentally, but also emotionally, and even physically, for that matter. LB: So what's involved with the Leadership? It's a program that is helping you to do, attain leadership skills? Or it's providing you as a leader? How does that -- RA: Kind of both. So each session is different. We had a county tour, for instance, where we visited local water treatment facilities. And then another one, we also visited a water sewage treatment facility, and what is being done for water quality. You know, we all drink water, we all take showers, or at least we would hope, so. But where does that water go? How is it treated? And even what businesses are doing with that water. For instance, what are beer distributors or brewers doing, because they heavily depend on water quality. Water in Lancaster is going to be different from water in the Lehigh Valley or even across the country in California, and so depending on your recipe and what the water is made up of, that'll change the flavor of not just beer, but products if you're a business owner. LB: How clean is the Conestoga River? RA: Not very clean. (laughs) From what I learned, less than twenty percent of the rivers and streams across Pennsylvania are up to par when it comes to the statewide standards regarding pollution and contamination. LB: And is that also because of upriver dumping, or is it coming from -- I'm just fascinated by this ; it doesn't have anything to do with COVID. RA: That's fine. LB: I wanted to know if that, you know, in places where I've lived, a great deal of the pollution comes from storm water overflow, or it comes from runoff from fertilizer. RA: Farms, yeah. LB: Or farms, or it comes from grass fertilizer, where particularly in suburban areas that clog -- that cause the algae to bloom and grow because they're fertilizing this algae that shouldn't have all this artificial fertilizer, and it clogs, it looks awful actually. RA: Yeah, and not just that, but you know, we have fracking going on in Pennsylvania, and that's a huge issue. And most recently, Maryland is suing Pennsylvania for not taking steps to mitigation pollution and contamination, and it's affecting Maryland's livelihood, particularly around the water, or rather the fishing industry and crabbing industry. LB: Yeah, so it's running through the River Susquehanna and the -- RA: Oh my goodness, over forty streams and rivers empty out into the estuary in the Chesapeake out into the Atlantic Ocean. LB: It's got to go someplace ; that's where it goes. RA: Yeah. (laughs) LB: Ugh, it's terrible. So, I'm glad that there are people that are looking after that ; that's very, very [important?]. It's, yeah. And you know, it's interesting that where I grew up, which was a quite affluent area of Connecticut, the whole east coast along the Long Island Sound was totally fouled by the fact that people put so much fertilizer in their grass, and then weed killer too, that it's just like, you know, and people think oh, it's so beautiful here, and everything, it's like yeah, you just killed everything. RA: Right, exactly, and I always say, and I keep repeating myself, you know, the work that we do, or our future depends on the work that we do now, and there is no plan B. If we don't save our environment, then you know, and I would say that it's one of our most, not just important, but pressing issues around the globe. LB: Yeah, that's definitely true. I have a very good, very, very close friend who's from Morocco. What happened? Oh, there you are. (laughs) RA: I just saw a notification ; I had to close it off, yeah. LB: Oh, who's from Morocco, and another friend of ours went to visit her in Morocco, visit her family, and they went to the part of the sea there, part of the Mediterranean that's there, that comes up to the coast, and the entire beach area and everything was completely unusable, just completely, just devastated, like you couldn't even, like the worst, horrible pollution that you could even imagine. You couldn't even put your foot in it, you know? And it's a beach ; the beautiful beach area. But it's just totally fouled, and what we're doing in the United States is exactly the same. It's just, well, you know, it doesn't matter, we'll just do it a little bit more, and we'll just me, and we have that, we have no leadership that is stopping that from happening. Let's talk a little bit about Black Lives Matter, because I don't think we can talk about COVID-19 without talking about -- RA: Sorry, I just had to say bye to my partner. Say hi. LB: Bye! IAN: Bye! LB: Have a good day. IAN: Nice to meet you, I'm Ian. LB: Nice to meet you. RA: He has to get going to work. LB: What a nice beard. RA: Yeah, he starts at four. LB: Oh. What did he say? I didn't hear him. RA: Oh, what am I going to do to get the car. I'll get the car later on. Sometimes I drop him off, but it's fine. LB: Oh. Do you own your house? RA: We don't, it's a rental. LB: Because it's old. RA: What? LB: Your house looks like, just from those bricks, it looks like it's from the 1800s. RA: I wouldn't, I couldn't tell you. We would love to buy a house. Sadly as LGBT people of color it's a little more difficult. And plus we want to do more traveling. Maybe in my mid-thirties, I just turned thirty. Or rather, I'd be thirty-one in February, so I'm in no rush to buy a house. LB: Yeah, it's just as well. Things are a little uncertain right now ; it's probably not a good idea to make that kind of choice. RA: Yeah, that's -- LB: Other people are saying it's a great time to buy and sell a house. I don't know why that is, but they're saying that. I think it's because people are paying so much attention to their houses right now because they're stuck in them. So, I'm really seeing that. But I was going to say that I don't think that we can talk about COVID-19 without talking about the current political situation and Black Lives Matter, so let's talk about Black Lives Matter a little bit, you want to say some things about that. RA: Yeah, so my partner is black and Puerto Rican. Very strong African roots in his family. Very strong Caribbean, indigenous, and even Spanish roots. His whole family speaks Spanish, and he's been highlighting that intersection of Latinx and black communities and LGBTQ+ folks, and he falls in all of that. (laughs) And so we've been fighting for black lives for years. I remember when Joey Santos was shot and killed in front of Dorney Park years ago, and here we are fighting the same fight. But we believe that black lives do matter, and that we need to push for comprehensive, not just reform, but you know, the whole system needs to change, it needs to be dismantled. You know, but that's going to take a lot of work. We need to be bold ; we need to be brave. But at the end of the day, know that we're in this together, and if your liberation is bound with ours, or rather, what is that quote? They always say, if you're here to help me, you're wasting your time, but if your liberation is bound with mine, then let's do something together. And I wholeheartedly believe that. And here in Lancaster, and even in the Lehigh Valley most recently with the officer that put his knee on a black man's neck -- yeah, you would think that the cops would learn, but you know, there's no negotiating with white supremacists and racists, especially when they are used to the power, and they oftentimes abuse it. And we even see it within the LGBTQ+ community, the reason why we have pride is because the police raided Stonewall fifty-one years ago, and trans, brown, and black folks decided to fight back against that abuse of power and police brutality. And here we are, we're still fighting police brutality and abuse of power. LB: Yeah, there's no question, that was just a few blocks from my house where that happened with the police officer. I've worked with the police before and I'm not surprised by that happening, and I'm not surprised by them already dragging their feet with regard to what (inaudible), and then they did it. And then they said, well not this time. And I'm not surprised that they released a nine-minute video that happened to be from a CCTV across the street, and that nine-minute video, I don't know if you've seen that, the longer video, is actually goes, the police officer when he's first handcuffing your guy with the other people after they've thrown him to the ground, after they've kicked him to the ground, which is what he did, he said, the police said that he fell down, but then you can see that that's not true at all, they kicked his feet out from under him and pushed him to the ground. They're trying to handcuff him and the guy kneels on his neck. But then, but people say well, you know, but then, about two minutes later after he's been handcuffed completely there the police are no longer touching him, and the police officer says something to him and he raises his head up about an inch, and the police officer knees his head right back down into the ground again. And he's handcuffed, there's absolutely, you know, so even the ridiculous sort of excuses of the first action, there was no excuse for the second action. Absolutely assault ; it's against this person who was completely unable to move at all, and then to have a police officer do that. And it's a terrible situation because I think that, you know, it's based on white supremacy but it's also based in police power. Those two things are so closely related. But there are also a lot to do with the training of the police which causes anybody who's a police officer to feel like (inaudible) it's even if they're not white, frankly. And working with guys who are unbelievably scary. RA: Yeah, and the police enforcement has a long history of discrimination and brutality and if you look at its inception, you know it was born to, out of a need within the white community to capture escaped slaves. And you can see some of those roots, or remnants are still, you know, still exist, whether people realize it or not. LB: And then, people will say that the militarization of the police started during the civil rights movement in the 1960s. You know, these people have rights ; now we're going to have to have the police officers to have machine guns and AK-47s, and dogs, and stuff like this, which actually, it was a different kind of attitude in the earlier parts of, where every police officer didn't carry a gun, for example. Most police officers didn't carry a gun, and in other countries where police officers don't carry guns. So. RA: Yeah, I don't carry a gun, and I don't feel safe around someone that carries a gun. There should be no reason why you need a gun around at all whatsoever. LB: Yeah, I think that's true, and I think that people really put themselves at risk if they advocate to proliferate arms. It just makes it scarier and scarier. I don't think that helps anything. I do think that the rapid action to marching and protesting and speaking out and photographing and talking about it is a very positive thing that I've been seeing ; I'm very excited about that. RA: Yeah, it seems like folks aren't just waking up, but you know, they're having these very difficult conversations, including you know, religion, anything LGBTQ+, and you know, these are, and politics, and these are things that you don't talk about at the dinner table. LB: Yeah, I don't think many people -- I mean, I've talked to a lot of people ; I have to say that, I haven't interviewed anybody who said, yeah, I'm not wearing a mask, and I think that, you know, I don't interview people like that because I'm not interested in reaching out to that population, but also, I'm only interviewing people who are part of the queer population, and frankly, I'm not coming across a lot of people in the queer community saying, yeah, go ahead and kill everybody, I don't care, as long as I'm alive ; I'm just not finding within our own community. There are people but not people who are going to talk to me, because they know I'll [yell at them?]. So, you know, I know that there are people who want to get back to work. And I was just talking, the last person I spoke to just before you was a person who's retired now, but he was a schoolteacher and he was talking about all the ramifications of sending kids back to school. And pointing out all sorts of reasons why that's just not going to work. He was talking about, he was a music teacher, and he came in contact with, of three schools, with every single kid in a week, he would come in contact with every single one of those kids, and so his potential for spreading it himself to all of those people, or having all of those kids in contact with him, he said, you know, if I were there, I'd get sick ; how can I not? I'm coming in contact with, you know, 800 kids. RA: Oh my goodness. LB: And you know, it's only one kid. And he was also talking about, this is pretty interesting, he was talking about how most inner-city schools, and I'm sure this is true in Lancaster public schools too, they all don't have air conditioning. A lot of inner-city schools in Allentown are not air conditioned, or only parts of them are air conditioned. And even some of the more recently built buildings are not air conditioned. So as a result, they will take kids who are in rooms where it's very, very hot, and they'll take all the hot rooms and bring them down to the air-conditioned rooms. So now you don't just have one class of kid, you have fifty kids. And how do you keep those kids from not infecting each other? Or you leave them in the room where it's one hundred and one degrees, or you bring them to a room where there's fifty kids, and a bunch of them have their masks down like this because they don't know how to wear them. So, it was really interesting what he said ; I hadn't even thought about that. And he said, oh yeah, I think about that every day. RA: Yeah, and then the whole, going back and forth right now, school districts don't know whether to open or close, and there's just so much controversy. LB: Yeah, and it's really based in greed. I mean, the only reason to open schools is so that you can let parents go back to work so that they can do minimum wage jobs to support rich people. Because truthfully, you know, we need to be able to -- parents need to be able to stay home with their kids right now. And yeah, they need money. But who really needs, you know? I was talking to one of the people I interviewed that has a daughter who has a congenital heart defect, and she was called back to work because she's an essential worker because she's a waitress ; she's a food service person, where she makes below minimum wage and the restaurant wasn't using precautions. There were people that were sick there, and her mother said to me, if she gets sick, she's going to die. But if she doesn't go to work, she's going to lose her job. Because they told her, if you don't come to work, it's your resignation. She said, but you're not -- nobody's got a mask on here. I'm coming in contact with all these people, you know, particularly wait staff because people who are eating are not wearing masks. So, and you know, this is not somebody who's making $300,000 a year as an essential worker. The most essential workers are the ones who don't make any money. RA: Yeah, minimum wage jobs. LB: Yeah, yeah. Warehouse workers, talk to people who are warehouse workers, and the dangers in their circumstances are very, very high. So okay, I think you were covering most of the stuff. So you seem to be in pretty good shape, I have to say, Ricardo, that you're the most stable person I've talked to, the last eighteen people. RA: Appreciate it. LB: And you're giving me a great deal of hope. What other things give you hope about right now? RA: What gives me hope is, oh my goodness, that's a big question. (laughs) What gives me hope is the prospective of a better future, that we'll get over this pandemic, that we'll be able to live full, authentic lives, and that finally we're highlighting black lives, but also trans lives and LGBTQ+ lives, and that we're highlighting that intersection and the need to lift those voices. And just because a group is gaining more rights doesn't take away someone else's. (laughs) That's not how -- LB: We're not rationing rights. RA: Yes, yes. I never understood that rationale. But what gives me hope is that we're putting in the work, that we're taking collective action, that I'm meeting with so many organizations, so many leaders on the ground, or rather on the computer (laughs) doing amazing things from virtual workshops, training sessions, webinars, community forums, and building relationships with legislators, people that are decision-makers, and building those relationships with their constituents, and that's part of the work that I'll be doing too. LB: Are you finding some positive things from people who are in the statehouse and stuff? I mean -- RA: So the statehouse is majority Democratic ; however the state senate, not so much. So we're having some trouble, and I recently met an open queer person of color, Malcolm Kenyatta from the Philadelphia area, and he's been championing COVID relief and raising the wage, and talking about, you know, the hypocrisy within the Republican Party, and highlighting that it's not a political issue ; it's a human issue. It just so happens that Republicans time and time again are trying to take away our healthcare, and they don't want to pay it. And sadly, they have the wealth, they have the representation, and the power, and so we want a more evenly distribution of that wealth, and we'll do that at any cost necessary, or rather, any means necessary. LB: I think it's true, you know, people have often, and I've been fighting for equal rights for the LGBT community and other communities for my whole career, and for years and years and years, and a long time ago, when we were fighting to pass the anti-discrimination ordinance in the city of Allentown, which was the first passage that included gender identity in the state ; nobody else had gender identity anything, not Philadelphia, anything, it was just Allentown. The effort to pass it started in 1998, and we were successful, and finally successful in 2002. RA: Congratulations. LB: Thank you. And then after that, I mean there were only six communities that had nondiscrimination laws ; Lancaster was one of them, and Lancaster interpretively, the city of Lancaster interprets as inclusive of gender identity as well. But it didn't say gender identity in the law. So once we passed it in Allentown, now we have fifty-six, fifty-eight communities that have nondiscrimination laws that includes sexual orientation and gender identity. But it's still only a third, really a third of the state. But the thing that somebody told me way back then, and I think this has always been true, and I've read this in a variety of circumstances, no matter what disenfranchised group you're talking about, you cannot compromise for basic civil rights. You shouldn't do that, because the bottom line is, so people were saying to me when I was leading that effort to pass that law in Allentown, we had to add sexual orientation and gender identity into an existing law, and what they said, people were saying, just do sexual orientation, because gender identity's too edgy. And my response to that is, look, you know, our enemies would deny us oxygen if they could. And there are people in the statehouse of the state of Pennsylvania that would do that. They would just deny us oxygen ; they'd deny us the right to live in the state. And so, if they would deny you oxygen, they're not going to be satisfied with a compromise. And you shouldn't be either. Don't compromise, because you know, this is just a question of basic civil rights, the right to housing, the right to employment, the right to healthcare, the right to economic distribution, the right to education, all of those things are just regular things. It's what every American, every person in America should be able to presume is their right to have, and it is ; it is. RA: Yeah, in college, sorry to cut you off, you just reminded me of the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? And if you take care of our basic needs first, we can continue up the ladder to potentially self-actualize, or self-realize. The main issues are, imagine how much our communities could thrive if we had guaranteed housing, quality education, clean air, clean water, clothing. All of these issues that are basic human necessities, if they were guaranteed to all of us, how much further along when it comes to progress and development could we be in ten, fifteen, twenty, one hundred years down the road? But because folks, you know are apprehensive to change or they just don't care enough to create that change -- LB: They're incredibly short-sighted. It's short-sighted (inaudible) because if you have a living wage, a living minimum wage, it improves and makes a robust economy ; it just does. So if you're looking at it purely from the viewpoint of greed, which is often the other side's viewpoint, pretty much it's the entire viewpoint, it's incredibly short-sighted to say, well we're not going to spend the money to give this population, this worker population a living wage because it will come out of our pockets. But it really doesn't, because if you pay people living wage, frankly, that's the whole basis of capitalism. Now you have people, even one of the most dastardly capitalists in the world, Henry Ford, who started Ford cars and changed the whole circumstance, he said, I want to produce a car that my own employees could buy. And so, you know, it has to be a good, cheap thing, and I have to pay them enough so that we can continue this American project which is based in capitalism. Capitalism has become this enormous seesaw of the incredibly rich and the incredibly poor, and the poor are the workers. And one thing we've totally seen about COVID-19 is without people who are making minimum wage, everything grinds to a halt. We can't do anything you know? Now you have to spend millions of tax, billions of tax dollars to just make it so that this population is still going to be able to come back to work when things open. I mean, that's speaking from a totally greed basis, which is a terrible basis to look at anything. But it's ridiculously short-sighted to say, well we're not going to pay you, but we want you to buy our computers. Or we want you to buy food in the grocery store. But we're not going to give you any money to do it. Well, that's not going to work. You know, and we also know that corporations, or companies that are justice-based will actually do that and it doesn't hurt their profit margin at all. Like Costco, or Ben & ; Jerry's or something like that who just pay a living wage. They pay a living wage, and they pay their workers, and they pay for their worker's healthcare, so what comes out is a real sense of support. You know the workers themselves have a sense of loyalty to their employer, and they work hard, instead of thinking, well, they don't care anything about me. You know, it's just a bad circumstance ; it always comes from greed. RA: Exactly, and they're the same ones that want to bust unions, and intimidate workers from former unions. And unions have a long history of creating change. That's the reason why we have a 40-hour workweek, or why we don't have children working in factories anymore, and why we have benefits, or why we have vacation time and all of these other benefits. And then you have folks who don't realize how important unions are, and because it's so anti-capitalist and more people-oriented, bosses and the rich are intimidated by the people, by unions, because ultimately, or rather at the end of the day, you can have a million executives, but if you have not one worker, what's the point? LB: Right, it's really true. Well you're certainly right about that ; it's been a joy talking to you, as I'm so pleased to be able to do that. So the last part of this, you know, that we're hoping somebody people will be looking at these videos, 30 or 40 years, you'll still be around. RA: (laughs) I hope so. LB: Of these, well I'm sure you are. Look at how healthy you are. And I want to give you an opportunity, and I want to encourage you to give a message to those people that are looking at this video sometimes in the future and say, you know, something about now, and you know, something that's sort of positive for them to think of. What can you think of that you would say to something -- RA: Yeah, sure. So things might look a little stark ; we're in the middle of a global pandemic. We have constant rioting, we have violence. But in the midst of all that, there is good, there is love, there is support, support for black folks, for LGBTQ-plus folks, for folks in the Latinx community, for refugees, for folks that are disabled. We're all in this together, and it's July 20th, 2020, but I hope that when you see this video, things are much better, and I know that, you know, with the work that we're doing now, we can together collectively develop policy solutions for some of the major problems we're facing, not just today, but hopefully, by the time you see this, these problems will be long resolved. LB: I hope so. RA: But again, we're in this together, and we just have to stay persistent. We have to keep pushing, and we have to lean in. We have no other option. We can't sit idly by, and the time was yesterday, but at least there are people doing it, and we're doing it boldly, courageously, but we're not alone. Like I said, we're in this together. LB: Yeah. Well thank you very, very much for talking to me and taking an hour and a little bit more out of your day to do this. I really appreciate it very, very much and everybody who will see this will appreciate it as well. And I love everything you said, and you give me a great deal of hope, so thank you for doing that. And I appreciate it, so what you'll get a transcript of this, and as soon as they're finished transcribing it, we send them to another college and they fix that, and then they give it back to us, so thank you again, and have a great day, and have a great weekend. Keep up the good work. RA: Yes, great. Thank you so much for inviting me, and I hope we stay in touch, and I'm sure we'll cross paths again soon. LB: I hope so. Okay, bye-bye. RA: All right. END OF AUDIO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
Duration
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01:08:39
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Title
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Ricardo Almodovar, July 20, 2020
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, Almodovar and Bradbury talk about how people's lives have been impacted under the pandemic, and how LGBTQ+ people fit in a pandemic. They talk about the problems in Allentown and Lancaster while even mentioning their own families. Ultimately, this interview generally talks about the effects of the pandemic in both the Allentown and Lancaster community.
Identifier
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PH40_27
Subject
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COVID-19
Date
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2020-07-20
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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https://lgbt.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/6958bb0dd45927f5143dfcdda4d4fc38.png
d10603262582ba69d529ddce65c03713
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
An account of the resource
In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Liz Bradbury
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Robin Casey
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Viewer)
https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_25.xml
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5.4 July 21, 2020 Robin Casey, July 21, 2020 PH40_25 01:11:49 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Robin Casey Liz Bradbury video/mpeg CaseyRobin_20200721_video.mp4 1.0:|27(3)|58(9)|89(7)|114(12)|137(15)|160(6)|183(6)|208(15)|231(7)|258(5)|279(2)|302(3)|321(5)|340(12)|363(11)|384(12)|407(3)|430(2)|453(10)|482(3)|503(6)|528(2)|555(4)|578(13)|603(5)|620(19)|645(8)|670(9)|697(3)|716(8)|735(12)|760(2)|785(10)|810(5)|833(10)|852(9)|869(13)|890(2)|913(5)|932(14)|957(4)|980(5)|1005(6)|1024(9)|1043(10)|1066(7)|1087(17)|1112(14)|1137(12)|1164(14)|1183(11)|1204(12)|1227(6)|1252(18)|1275(7)|1302(2)|1325(3)|1352(7)|1371(9)|1398(10)|1425(7)|1452(7)|1479(5)|1502(6)|1525(14)|1550(5)|1575(6)|1604(15)|1627(7)|1652(8)|1677(9)|1706(5) 0 https://youtu.be/HkG5lECgvG0 YouTube video 0 Interview Introduction LIZ BRADBURY: So, yes, it’s working. Going to start the backup sound. That’s good. And I’m going to read you this thing. With this project, Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community. 0 207 Working in higher education during the pandemic/Working in-person everyday during the fall semester LB: And so, talk about what you do and how you’ve been working and whether you’ve been working online or that kind of stuff.
 ; 
 ; RC: I work in higher ed, and I’ve primarily been working remotely up until three weeks ago. And I’ve been going into the office twice a week. 
 ; 0 279 Concerns over how pandemic affects students socially and health-wise LB: What about in general, in terms of how that’s going to affect people on campus in terms of your [perception?]?
 ; 
 ; RC: It’s interesting because I have been focused on the, I’m always focused on the needs of the students. And so many students want to come back to campus, and yet I am aware that their safety -- they may not be thinking about their safety in the same way that perhaps they may need to think about it. 0 424 Preparing for both in-person and online classes/How the pandemic has affected Muhlenberg College staff and students RC: So I think we’re preparing -- the college is preparing for students to come back, and at the same time, my colleagues are preparing for what it would be like to teach classes online.
 ; 
 ; LB: Yeah, it’s interesting. So, let’s see. There, at Muhlenberg -- because you’re at Muhlenberg College -- have there been layoffs, or have there been sections of the campus that have been affected? 0 742 Engaging the Allentown community in Promise Neighborhoods/Students pushing for Muhlenberg College to be a more anti-racist space LB: So are you communicating with people that you are friends with or family or something, a lot online and talking to people in other areas? Do you find you’re doing that more now than what you would do -- 
 ; 
 ; RC: Yeah, I think I’m doing more of that with Allentown community. Well, No Promise Neighborhood. 0 829 Engaging the Allentown Police Department in sensitivity training, towards LGBT community members RC: You know, around our police security force, engage them and also engaging the Allentown police department. I did share with them there was some conversation about whether or not they had been, at the APD, trained in work with trans and LGBT community members. And I said, “I’m pretty sure the Sullivan-Brad-- that they’ve been doing some work there.” And they made it seem like -- they made it seem like they hadn’t been. I’m like, that’s not true. 0 1096 Culture of police violence/discomfort with Bradbury-Sullivan Center training police RC: Yeah. I’m -- they’re going to find that with our police officers too, given that even after the chief had put out that email recent, (inaudible) the chokehold, and then the next thing you know, it’s a culture. The APD has a culture they have to really grapple with. This is going to take a lot of ongoing engagement on working with marginalized communities, and so I’m not really sure they’re ready for that or even open to it. So, yeah, I don’t know. 
 ; 
 ; LB: I don’t feel comfortable about, unless there’s drastic change in that police department, I don’t feel comfortable. 0 1259 Muhlenberg students against armed campus security/supporting students throughout the pandemic RC: But that’s what’s happening right now, because our students really would love for us not to have an armed security on campus. And yet they don’t want APD on our campus either, so all those things are happening simultaneously, and we will see how that shakes out. 0 1347 George Floyd's murder/Allentown police violence caught on video RC: And then from then on, then George Floyd was murdered and then it’s just been ongoing from then on. 
 ; 
 ; LB: Yeah. And this thing that happened in Allentown, it’s just extraordinary. I mean, because it’s not -- I don’t know if you’ve seen the whole nine minute video. Did you see the whole nine minute video?
 ; 0 1627 Allentown Police Department statement concerning police violence incident LB: And yet, well you know, all of those things. And I remember saying this to Trish. I said, “Yeah, they’re making the statement and they’re not going to do this.” And then that happened. Like four days later.
 ; 
 ; RC: It wasn’t unbelievable, but it was just so clear --
 ; 0 1724 Pandemic combined with visible police violence influencing people's points-of-view and interactions RC: You know, I was out at the fish hatchery and I was walking with a friend of mine and we had our masks on, so it was -- I wouldn’t say at the height of the COVID-19 crisis, but it was when people were just feeling like they could start to walk outside in the park with a mask on. This white gentleman is coming the opposite direction and he’s walking toward us and we don’t think anything of it, and then he stops us and he just says to me, “I want you to know that I believe that Black Lives Matter.” And I’m like, “Okay.” Thank you? 0 2103 Concerns regarding the pandemic/Envisioning a support network for Allentown LB: So, what do you think, for you in general, what’s your biggest concern with regard to the pandemic? So, when you’re thinking about this?
 ; 
 ; RC: You know, I think a part of it has to do with that this is also the time when I’m hoping that in the next ten years or so I’ll be retiring And not knowing, I’ve never ever faced any worries about being laid off or furloughed or things like that. And so my retirement account, paying attention to the stock market because the college puts our money into the stock market. 0 2474 Thoughts on Dr. Rachel Levine LB: Do you actually know people -- because I have to say, this is a factor of who I know and all the folks that I’m interviewing are part of the queer community, of the most part, or tangential parts of the queer community -- and so there’s never people who like, think Rachel Levine is a bad person. Because she’s really our hero, you know, and recognize that by extension Governor Wolf has been very, very good to the LGBT community in the state of Pennsylvania. 0 2600 Thoughts on using queer dating or hookup apps during the pandemic LB: The next question is, are you spending time on any queer dating or hookup apps?
 ; 
 ; RC: I refuse! I just can’t! I can’t do it! I so miss the Michigan Women’s Music Festival. My heart! I just refused to do it, and I think I’ve come to accept that probably -- I have some really close friends here. 0 2765 Going out during the pandemic/Staying active during the pandemic LB: So, are you limiting going out? Are you going to the grocery store or stuff like that? How is that?
 ; 
 ; RC: I have a dog. I walk him three times a day, at least four or five miles. He kills me. And I do go to the grocery store. I just started going back to work to the office. 0 2935 Assisting LGBT Muhlenberg students LB: So, there’s a question on here. And has it been hard to be out? And that really is for young people how are in circumstances where they’re with families that are not supportive, and I would wonder that you might be coming in contact with students that might let you know that they might be out on campus but now they can’t be that way at home. Have you come in contact with anybody that’s in --
 ; 
 ; RC: That’s my biggest concern when we went remote, is that -- so we have our GSAs. And most students, when they come to college is when they really feel they can express themselves fully, if they haven’t come out. 0 3360 Points of hope during the pandemic RC: So you know, I’m hopeful that these young congress people like Alexandria, Ayanna, and all those others, they are strong enough to hold fast, like Ruth and John Lewis. Because it’s not like ten, twenty -- it’s a lifetime. 0 3834 Epiphanies during the pandemic LB: So, anyway, I think that’s everything. I did want to, so here’s one little thing. There’s a question here that says, “What are your frustrations and challenges?” And you’ve already talked about some of that stuff, but have you had any like one little thing that’s an epiphany about your life that you figured out? 0 4046 Missing others/Not being able to help others during the pandemic RC: I have a lot of friends like that who are -- what’s nice about it is that more and more young women that I’ve met, or colleagues of mine, have grown up being butch dykes but they’re not. You know? They do all the things that I think they -- one of the scientists, and she just tore down her shed and built a new one. And it’s this beautiful thing ; she has all these tools, and all the tool belts and everything, and it’s just like amazing. So I love these young women of today because they are who we were, (inaudible). So I think that that’s cool. But no, that’s what I miss, is just not being with people that I really like to be close to. 
 ; 0 4144 Inspired by Muhlenberg students LB: Well anyway, it’s wonderful to hear about really positive things. A number of the things that you said about the students are very heartening for me. I’m sucking out as much hope as I can out of this, because we all need to get that. So it’s wonderful to hear about (inaudible). Well, and I just think that they’re the ones that are going to save us in this world right now. And I think that this kind of circumstance is upsetting, but for young people they’re not disillusioned. They’re angry, and that’s the way I want them to be. 
 ; 0 4244 Conclusion/Thoughts for the future LB: Thank you so much for talking to me. It’s been terrific, and I usually ask people if they want to say anything else to somebody in the, 30 years from now and going to look back and, no, you’re pretty much -- 
 ; 
 ; RC: No, all I have to say is that I was here and I hope that I made, this video is just to say that we all got work to do -- 
 ; 
 ; LB: It is, it is. And we’re working, and I hope the people watching it in the future will say, “Yeah, it worked.”
 ; 0 MovingImage Robin Casey talks about how the current COVID-19 pandemic is affecting her as a faculty member at a local college. She talks about her concerns regarding the opening of the college during the pandemic, the LGBT students who need support, and the relationship of the college and students to the Black Lives Matter movement in regards to recent police brutality issues in Allentown. Robin Casey 2020-07-21 LIZ BRADBURY: So, yes, it's working. Going to start the backup sound. That's good. And I'm going to read you this thing. With this project, Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community. Oh, I have to turn off my phone. Collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury, and I'm here with Robin Riley-Casey to talk to her about her experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of the COVID-19 epidemic as part of the Lehigh LGBT community archive. We are Zoom meeting, or meeting on Zoom, on Monday, July 21st, 2020. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start, can you please state your full name and spell it for me? ROBIN CASEY: Yes. Robin Riley-Casey. Liz, just so you know, I've been just going by Robin Casey lately for various reasons, if that's okay. LB: Okay, sure. RC: So, do you want me to go back and do that again? LB: Yes. RC: Okay. So, my name is Robin Casey. That's R-O-B-I-N, C-A-S-E-Y. LB: Okay. So I will change that on the indicators. Will you please share your birthdate? RC: 9-21-63. LB: Okay. And are you in Allentown? RC: I am. LB: Okay. So, this is the consent part. Do you consent to this interview today? RC: Yes. LB: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publically available online in searchable formats? RC: Yes. LB: Do you consent to the LGBT archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats, including films, articles, websites, presentations, and anything else that might be available in the future that we have no idea about? RC: Yes. LB: Which could happen! Do you understand that you will have thirty days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview, identify any parts that you'd like to delete, and/or withdraw from your interview, or withdraw the whole interview form the project? RC: Yes. LB: Okay. Now, this is the identity part. What is your zip code? RC: 18104. LB: Okay. And what is your age? RC: Oh, my birthday is coming up, so that would make me fifty-seven. LB: Okay. And how do you identify within the LGBT community? RC: Queer. LB: Okay. And that is good. So, these are some things that we're going to talk about. I mean, you can say whatever you want here, but we start out with some of these beginning questions and, you know, you can say whatever you want. So here's the deal. The first question is, during the COVID thing, are you living with somebody, or do you have somebody else in your household, or are you by yourself? RC: I do have someone with me right now. LB: Okay, that's good. And so, talk about what you do and how you've been working and whether you've been working online or that kind of stuff. RC: I work in higher ed, and I've primarily been working remotely up until three weeks ago. And I've been going into the office twice a week. LB: And what are you anticipating with regard to how that's going to go for the rest of the summer and into the fall? RC: They are anticipating that we will be coming back to campus, and that my office, I will be in the office primarily every day of the week, and my assistant will be there three times a week. LB: How do you feel about going back to work like that? RC: I'm not nervous and I probably should be, but I'm not because my office is separate from the main campus. And anyone who wanted to meet with me would have to meet by Zoom or by appointment, and so I can control the number of people that come in and out of that space. LB: That's good. What about in general, in terms of how that's going to affect people on campus in terms of your [perception?]? RC: It's interesting because I have been focused on the, I'm always focused on the needs of the students. And so many students want to come back to campus, and yet I am aware that their safety -- they may not be thinking about their safety in the same way that perhaps they may need to think about it. And so I think students want to come back because this is their life. And they want to enjoy all of it. And a part of that is experiencing a Western college experience and so being on campus, a college campus, is a part of that. So I've been focusing on their need to feel relationships and that requires a full college experience. So my peers, my colleagues have asked me to start thinking about things a little bit differently. And so I have been. LB: You mean thinking about it that way? RC: No, thinking about it not so much in terms of the student's need to be in community with one another physically. But more about how it may impact their health by being -- even though we're doing all kinds of measures, you know, in terms of trying to be thoughtful about how COVID could be spread -- it still may inadvertently cause harm to either those students, to other colleagues, community members in Lehigh Valley, all those kinds of things. So beyond the students, to outside of that. So I've been considering that. LB: That's tough. It's tough to sort of look at both sides of that. Because you can certainly see why kids want to come back, the young people want to come back to campus (inaudible) campus. But Trish was just at the doctor this morning for a checkup, and the doctor -- it was a specialist, actually -- said, "There's no way that schools are going to open." She said it flat out. "Stop worrying about it. It's not going to happen." RC: And more and more people are saying that, including my colleagues. So I think we're preparing -- the college is preparing for students to come back, and at the same time, my colleagues are preparing for what it would be like to teach classes online. LB: Yeah, it's interesting. So, let's see. There, at Muhlenberg -- because you're at Muhlenberg College -- have there been layoffs, or have there been sections of the campus that have been affected? I was just talking to another person at another college who talked all about all the staff of the college, but didn't talk about like the food service providers and stuff. So, want to say anything about that? RC: Well I mean, I think that our food service provider is considered a third party. And I know that those individuals worked all the way up until -- so, we went remote sometime in mid-March. And those food service providers worked all the way into April. And it was a way to keep them employed, but also because we still had a number of students on campus. For various reasons, who were unable to go home. Their home was not conducive to them returning. International students who really could not go back to their home countries, and so there were so many students at the time. I think when we went remote we had over one hundred students that were still on campus after. And then we actually allowed some students to come back because the conditions at home were not optimal. So there were a number of people that were in food service in particular that were still here, on campus. So I don't know specifically what happened in terms of the numbers of people, how they managed that. But for students, for people who are, my colleagues, who are part of the Muhlenberg campus, they began to do shared work hours, where some people who could Monday/Tuesday. Other people would come Wednesday/Thursday, those kinds of things. That started to happen. They asked how many of us could do our job remotely. How many of us who were willing to do other jobs that had nothing to do with our particular area, but were willing to do other jobs so that we could continue to receive a paycheck. And so those kinds of things were offered up. So many students went home without taking their belongings, because they weren't prepared to do that. So many people stayed on campus to help box up those belongings, store those belongings. So that happened all the way throughout April and into May. So other colleges have done all kinds of things to try to make it so that people didn't have to go, what they call furloughed. Not layoff, but furlough. So that was happening in many offices outside of academic life, and outside of (inaudible) and Student Affairs, the department I'm underneath. To plan out housekeeping, grounds people. I'm going to say assistants. So they had a different kind of schedule that they were working under than other people. So I think now they are bringing those individuals back to more of a full work kind of schedule, preparing for the beginning of the academic year. LB: You don't have students on campus now, though, do you? Or do you? RC: We do. We do. Not many. I think we have maybe, maybe thirty? Thirty or so students. LB: They were in that situation, they're international students or they're in that situation? RC: Not as many international students now. Now more domestic students. So those students who came back because they are working for the campus, they didn't have optimal living conditions and came back. Those kinds of students. But they are in a suite style living situation where they have a full kitchen, their own restroom, you know. That kind of thing. (inaudible) An apartment. LB: Oh, that's good. Well, I certainly am fairly aware of all the different living situations there because of [Hannah Mesouani?], my dear friend who I just talked to recently. And he's in a very similar job as yours, actually, at Wesleyan University, or Illinois Wesleyan. And it's the same kind of thing, where the college really wants to open but the faculty is talking about the ethics of opening. And the concern for students and it's a very similar college to Muhlenberg in terms of size and the kind of students that are there, I think. Maybe not quite as culturally aware. Which is, you know. So are you communicating with people that you are friends with or family or something, a lot online and talking to people in other areas? Do you find you're doing that more now than what you would do -- RC: Yeah, I think I'm doing more of that with Allentown community. Well, No Promise Neighborhood. Some of the -- I almost wanted to say student action. Youth-led action groups around Black Lives Matter movement. And then our students, who have been so you know, they're back home in their own communities but they're still pushing Muhlenberg to be more engaged. And so it's as if they never left. I mean, it's never been this busy in the summer in my eleven years here at Muhlenberg College. And so we've had so many meetings between the president, the provost, and the deans around how are we going to make this more an anti-racist, ethical space. And that's from our indigenous community, our Asian community, our trans community. And certainly our Black and brown students who have really been really challenging our college leadership to be more proactive, and not waiting for the students to get back. You know, around our police security force, engage them and also engaging the Allentown police department. I did share with them there was some conversation about whether or not they had been, at the APD, trained in work with trans and LGBT community members. And I said, "I'm pretty sure the Sullivan-Brad-- that they've been doing some work there." And they made it seem like -- they made it seem like they hadn't been. I'm like, that's not true. LB: I want to make this perfectly clear. To say this, and feel free to pass this information on. I trained them five years ago. And the training was -- I mean, I've trained hundreds of people. I've trained thousands of people. I've trained 9,000 people in the last four years, and I trained them just before we opened the center. And they were not very good at [leaving?] that training. I would not consider them well-trained. That was five years ago. I mean, trainings have changed since then. Certainly drastically changed since then. I didn't find that group of people perceptive, and I have to say that we have actually removed from our list of places that we've trained, police departments. Because we don't want people to think that these police -- I also trained Bethlehem police. And even by the very virtue of it just being five years ago, that was too long ago. I mean, you can't count that as a training. But I have to say that training police is very, very, very hard to do. And I can just say this. I trained every one of those police officers. I trained them in groups of forty or fifty over five different trainings. And several of the trainings, I had an intern with me from [Potsdam?], who was a social work intern. At one of the trainings, she actually came out of the training, got in the car, and cried. And she cried all the way home. She told me she cried all the way, her drive home. And she was not part of the queer community. And she said, "I will never feel comfortable engaging with police again." RC: Wow. Well, that's the work they're trying to do now. So we'll see. Maybe that's what the -- LB: I think that training the police -- and I've made a video, because we had a grant, and I made a series of videos which I have available, to train. And they would work for security, too. And they specifically were made to train police, because of this. Police said to me, flat-out, "We don't want to be trained by anyone but other police officers." So, the training that I made was that I created a script. I used another video that was made by the Prince Edward, what is it called. Prince George's County Police, outside of (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible). And they have a very good training about -- that was made a long time ago. It was made about six or seven years ago. It was made by the National Center for Transgender Equality in conjunction with that police force. It's about training lice to work with the trans community. But it didn't talk about, it only talked about transgender women and it didn't talk about LGB people. It didn't talk about gender nonconforming people, so you know, I filled that in and we had a police officer. We filmed the police officer doing the training. So we have four, twenty-minute trainings, about twenty minutes, where the police officer -- and one of them uses that video, and then the other two talk about the other issues. They talk about cultural circumstances that cause LGBT people to be war of the police. All sorts of things like that. It's a very good training. RC: Yeah. I'm -- they're going to find that with our police officers too, given that even after the chief had put out that email recent, (inaudible) the chokehold, and then the next thing you know, it's a culture. The APD has a culture they have to really grapple with. This is going to take a lot of ongoing engagement on working with marginalized communities, and so I'm not really sure they're ready for that or even open to it. So, yeah, I don't know. LB: I don't feel comfortable about, unless there's drastic change in that police department, I don't feel comfortable. They had to force the people to come. They had to have a person sit there who was management, an upper-level person, so they wouldn't call out rude things to me. I mean, it was ridiculous. It was ridiculous. I've never had another training that was like that, and as I've said, I've trained over one hundred and seventy organizations. Never had anybody do this. I took into consideration, I had done the trainings a little bit more drastically before I did those trainings, and I changed some of the in reaction to that. But I ended up training Lehigh County Health and Human Services, which is every person who works -- and that includes juvenile detention, court people. Social workers, everything. And people were concerned about those, because those were mandatory trainings, too. And I actually got contact from people who said, "I don't think that these people are going to receive these trainings well. They haven't liked other mandatory trainings. They're going to be tough on you." And I was very careful about how I did that training, but it was pretty similar to what I had done to train the police. And as a result, I didn't have any problem training the Health and Human Services people. They actually gave me the highest ratings of anybody that ever had trainings there. And part of it was that other trainings were not as clear and useful. But in terms of training the police to be empathic, I don't think that'll ever happen. In terms of training them to stop using micro-aggressions and saying to them, "If you do use this language, you'll be fired." Maybe. Maybe. RC: Right. It'd be interesting. I don't know, because honestly they have so many protections, particularly when people think that we're in the height of the moment. They have to both be someone who can step up to engage in an uncertain situation, and they also have to maintain a level of professionalism, which is difficult in those -- I don't know. But that's what's happening right now, because our students really would love for us not to have an armed security on campus. And yet they don't want APD on our campus either, so all those things are happening simultaneously, and we will see how that shakes out. So I think that this summer has been nothing but, from the COVID-19, when that first hit, we were trying to figure out how to support students who were at home, who didn't have access to the internet. Families who were losing their jobs, and so food insecurity, housing insecurity, and all those kinds of things. And luckily enough we had just started our financial hardship support system, resource system, on campus. And so we were supporting many students and their families, to make sure they had access to the internet services, wherever they were located. California, Washington D.C., it didn't matter. Texas. So we were doing all that, and then also making sure that they had access to some funds to help them replenish their food stores. So all those things were going on on this end, to make sure they could make it through the semester. And then from then on, then George Floyd was murdered and then it's just been ongoing from then on. LB: Yeah. And this thing that happened in Allentown, it's just extraordinary. I mean, because it's not -- I don't know if you've seen the whole nine minute video. Did you see the whole nine minute video? RC: I did. LB: It's not just one instance when he's trying to handcuff the guy. He does it again, later, when the guy's completely handcuffed, for no reason at all. RC: I didn't understand (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) either. I didn't understand what they were doing. I mean, it's hard to say if they were fearful or they just didn't want to intervene because the officers were present. I'm not really sure what was going on there either, so it was really awkward and kind of mind-boggling about what they were doing or what they perceived themselves -- being a help to the officers? Or to the gentleman? I couldn't quite figure that out. LB: If you look at the expressions on their faces -- it's hard to watch. And I've talked to people, and people of color, who've said, "I can't watch it. I don't want to watch it." And I understand that. But I have to say that based on my privilege, I've been in a position where I've watched every second of that so I can call it out. And then I do call out that kind of stuff, and one of the things is that the police said that in their statement, that he fell to the ground and the other people, the police officers, [fell?]. It's a complete lie. They kick his feet out from under him and threw him to the ground. RC: Yes, yes, yes. LB: And you know, you can't just have it both ways. You can't say, "Well, we have to trust the police and look they're trying," and then they just lie to you. And you and I have been in situations where we've been talking to police officers who just blatantly will tell you something that isn't true, and it's very hard to not be very sensitive to that And I can understand how -- I mean, I was talking to a young black activist who said, "When these things are defunded and stuff like that." I went, "Boy, I hope that's true." And I know it should be. I know it should be. And you can see why we cannot send police officers out in a situation where there's a person who is sick or mentally ill, something like that. You could see why that is ridiculous. If you look at that video and you look at the healthcare worker's faces, some of them literally go -- like, they're concerned for the guy. Who knows what they're thinking. I mean, that's an impossible situation. RC: Yeah. Yeah, it's hard in too many ways, because I struggle on campus with being raised not to, what I call, bend my knee. You know? To authority. And yet I know young people in this generation are taught to just make it home alive. Make it home alive, right. So put your hands on the steering wheel, "Yes sir, no sir." And so I want them to make it home alive as well, but I struggle a lot with not interceding. LB: I know, I know. RC: So in that moment probably the thing in my mind would've been how could I have helped that gentleman? So, could I go over and put my arm around him and say, "Brother, let me take you into the hospital." Or, "What do you need?" And try to speak to him. But I think that so many people look at the officers as, now they are in charge. They come on scene, they're in charge, and so you give away all your power to them. Yeah. That's just not something that I'm comfortable with, so. LB: And I also think that you know, it [goes?] back to COVID-19. This was a person who was really potentially endangering other people because he was throwing up, he was spitting, things like that. So we are in that extra added level of fear, that is legitimate, you know. It really is. RC: It is legitimate. LB: And in fact, he could've been sick like that for that very reason. And yet, well you know, all of those things. And I remember saying this to Trish. I said, "Yeah, they're making the statement and they're not going to do this." And then that happened. Like four days later. RC: It wasn't unbelievable, but it was just so clear -- LB: A classic -- RC: We don't need another statement. No more statements. We do not need another statement. LB: You can't say anything. And the thing and I was talking to Ce-Ce Gerlach and I said -- their resolution, I think their resolution that they made was very, very significant and very well done. I don't think, anybody with any sense couldn't argue with any statement they made. It's actually the least that you could expect. But the whole thing about body cams could've -- because we're still not hearing anything about that. And people are saying, "Well, you don't know what they're saying." Well, it doesn't matter what he's saying, but the bottom line is, yeah, I would like to hear what he's saying. Because some people are saying, "Well, this man was insane. He was a danger to himself." Other people, we have no idea. So why do we think that at all? That's not really the issue, but it certainly isn't the issue with regard to kneeing somebody's head into the sidewalk when he's handcuffed. I mean, that's it. That's it. RC: Over the curb. That was just like, that was hard. You know, I was out at the fish hatchery and I was walking with a friend of mine and we had our masks on, so it was -- I wouldn't say at the height of the COVID-19 crisis, but it was when people were just feeling like they could start to walk outside in the park with a mask on. This white gentleman is coming the opposite direction and he's walking toward us and we don't think anything of it, and then he stops us and he just says to me, "I want you to know that I believe that Black Lives Matter." And I'm like, "Okay." Thank you? And then he tells me that, you know, he was a part of the Civil Rights movement back in the sixties, and all these things. But he didn't do enough. And I'm thinking, that's interesting. And I said, "Well, what do you mean?" He says, "You know, I kind of just got busy with my life." And I said, "We all do. We all get busy. Don't feel bad about living your life." He said, "But I realize now I should've helped push. And I want to push now." I said, "You know, I really appreciate you stopping and telling me that" -- LB: That's very gracious of you. RC: -- yeah. But (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) yeah. It was really kind of, it was awkward. At the same time, because we're all dealing with the COVID-19, we all keeping our distance. He was very respectful and aware that we had to maintain this distance, right, because of COVID-19. And yet you could see his desire to make a connection. I think that's the interesting thing, is that in the midst of this distance, there's still the desire for some of us to make a connection. And so I hope that he knew from me, I had no ill will against him. I didn't know this man from anyone. And yet he took a moment to say, "I see you," and I said, "I see you. And I appreciate that you wanted me to know that we're in this together." And that's what I did. I said, "We're in this together. It's all of us. We've all got work to do." But my person that walks with me, the white woman who's just now starting to think about issues of racial inequalities, and so she's like, this is a white man, she's a white woman, and I think she was thinking like maybe protecting me to some extent. Like, who's this white man approaching us on a dog trail? But it was really interesting and I didn't share that story with anyone because I thought, "Nobody wants to hear a nice, warm, fuzzy story." It wasn't that it was a nice, warm, fuzzy story. It was just that in the midst of so much, this damn COVID-19 that connections still could be made. And I probably wouldn't recognize that guy from anyone. But it will stick with me, and I'm sure it will stick with him as well. Interesting. LB: Good to hear that. But it still, I think, was very gracious of you to listen to his story about, "Oh, I really tried." RC: "I really tried, but then I stopped." LB: Well, I think it's gracious of you to do that. And I agree that, you know, yeah. I think people are trying. And I've talked to a lot of people I've talked to a lot of people of color in this, because I wanted to be -- I have to confess that I had to do ten interviews of people who were in the Lehigh Valley during the AIDS epidemic, and I talked to three women and seven men. And they were all white. They were all pretty privileged, to the point where they weren't really -- it was during now, it was during COVID -- and they weren't really negatively affected by COVID, other than just being concerned for people's health and stuff. They hadn't had it, they didn't know anyone who had died, that kind of stuff. And so I said to Trish, "Now I've got to do twenty COVID interviews," which is a lot, frankly. And I said, "I have to interview people of color or it's just going to look like the Aryan reaction to these things. It's ridiculous." So I tried to interview as many different kinds of people as I could. Also different age people, because everybody in the AIDS thing was all, you know, sixty or over. And so I talked to a lot of people, and one of the things that -- so this, I think, the eighth or the ninth interview. No, the eleventh interview I've done for the COVID things. And this universal thing -- because you cannot talk about this period of time without talking about Black Lives Matter, it's ridiculous to presume that you could separate that from this instance. And I said to the folks, I've said to everybody, "What's giving you hope about this?" And a lot of people have said that this response, particularly by young people, in terms of violence breeds activism, that kind of stuff, has been a positive thing for them. And I feel that way too. The thing that's killing me is, I can't join in. Because Trish is such at risk. I can't. And so a lot of older people that I've spoken to have said, "I can't do this, and I hate that I can't do it. But it's wonderful to see a lot of young people, who are being socially distancing and wearing the mask, but they are out there and they are doing what they should be doing. And that's the thing that's giving us the hope that we can grasp during this time." Because there's not a lot of things that we can be really, really hopeful about. I mean, you can always be hopeful, but it's tough. So, what do you think, for you in general, what's your biggest concern with regard to the pandemic? So, when you're thinking about this? RC: You know, I think a part of it has to do with that this is also the time when I'm hoping that in the next ten years or so I'll be retiring And not knowing, I've never ever faced any worries about being laid off or furloughed or things like that. And so my retirement account, paying attention to the stock market because the college puts our money into the stock market. So I'm thinking about that and how to safeguard that money, because if I were thinking outside (inaudible), it's just to supplement, not to (inaudible). So that's probably one of my concerns. I think the other one has to do with the way it personally, my personal concern. I don't have any concerns about my own health, which I think is really interesting. I've never really been unhealthy, so that's privilege and I'm aware of it. And I don't know anyone currently who's had COVID-19, and so that's also a part of it. But I have a dear friend who has leukemia. She's in remission currently, but has had a scare so we're waiting to hear back some information. But she's in Ohio. So I'm not in touch with her physically, but so I'm worried that there's a kind of, the other ancillary things around it. That if I needed to get home to be with my family, and some sort of network glitch would happen and I couldn't be in contact because technology would go down. Or all of a sudden, my money, I didn't have access to it and I couldn't get home, to campus or somewhere. Or if I got really ill myself and all my family was at my and they couldn't get to me. And so in conversations I've been having with people in Allentown, we've been talking about what would an underground railroad look like now? Where people in need needed support? Whether that was food, whether that was housing, whether that was finances, whether that was care. Those kinds of things. Who in our community could we say, "We got you?" You know? At one time, when there was a real scare here in Pennsylvania, you know that I was in the military at one time. And I can shoot a weapon. And I thought -- well, things got really, really crazy. It was when you couldn't go to the store and there was nothing at the grocery store. But in Allentown, people get crazy about like the snow is coming and you can't find any milk. I'm used to that. But it seemed a little bit different. And so you can't find toilet paper, you can't find (inaudible). You can't find like the food stuff, and so we were talking about this underground network of support for people who were going to need things and they're also going to need someone to protect them. And one of the things I was saying is, I do know how to shoot a weapon. I haven't done it in probably twenty years. My eyesight has changed. But I could do it if I had to. And if I had to train others, now's the time to start to prepare to do those kinds of things. So these are the kinds of interesting sort of ancillary things that's not COVID-19 specifically, how the virus may impact me physically. But what I would need to do if, in fact, it impacted the people that I love or cared about as a community, and we needed all the other things that could happen because of it. So, those are the kinds of things that I've been more acutely involved in. I've been worried about all the numbers and I've been in conversation with people who keep saying it's a hoax. (inaudible) Unbelievable things. And our governor is an idiot, you know. I've been trying my best to sort of help them understand, please pay attention. But for me, it's the ancillary things or the fall-out, how COVID-19 can impact us in ways, our community, Allentown proper. I'm not talking about the west end. I'm really talking about the city as I think of it. Where people don't have access to things because they don't have the resources. They don't have the insurance. They don't have finances to make sure they have food stores. Or lights, or those kinds of things. That's the kind of conversations I've been a part of, and that happened early on during the COVID-19 crisis. And that probably was an extension of so many students that I knew, were going back home to communities where their families and neighborhoods didn't have access to those (inaudible). So then that reconnected me to a community that I, really probably the closest I was connected to Allentown was when I was working the (inaudible) commission. That was the closest I was to really knowing the people in the city proper. And so through those students, it reconnected m to some of the work that was happening in the city. LB: That's interesting. Do you actually know people -- because I have to say, this is a factor of who I know and all the folks that I'm interviewing are part of the queer community, of the most part, or tangential parts of the queer community -- and so there's never people who like, think Rachel Levine is a bad person. Because she's really our hero, you know, and recognize that by extension Governor Wolf has been very, very good to the LGBT community in the state of Pennsylvania. And you know, both of them have been a real guiding light, compared to a lot of other states where they're just, "Yeah, so what if everybody dies?" Kind of thing. We've been very lucky, I think, at least to have that level of leadership. And I also think it's been a positive thing for our queer youth to be able to see that even -- you know, it's tough though, because I talked to somebody who said, "It is hurting our transgender youth to see Dr. Rachel Levine be attacked that way." They don't just look at this and say, "Oh wow, look at this wonderful brilliant woman of science who is this very high level of the government and is saying all these intelligent things." The first thing that young people are seeing is all the attacks that they're going to, that she's enduring, and thinking to themselves, "Well you know, if I come out as trans or if I'm in public with regard to my gender identity, am I going to be attacked that way?" They're not going to think, "Am I going to be able to achieve what she has?" They're thinking, "Am I going to just be beaten up and made a mockery of constantly?" It's a tough thing for our kids. RC: I saw that whole thing with the dunking booth of someone dressed up as, supposed to be Levine. And he blatantly denied, it was not meant to be a mockery of her at all, meant to be just for fundraising. But yeah. LB: It's hard, It's ridiculous. So, that was my next question, about Rachel Levine. So there you go. The next question is, are you spending time on any queer dating or hookup apps? RC: I refuse! I just can't! I can't do it! I so miss the Michigan Women's Music Festival. My heart! I just refused to do it, and I think I've come to accept that probably -- I have some really close friends here. Women, all women, that when I head home, that's when I'm in my granny shawl and my rocking chair. Perhaps I'll do it. But I have no desire to go through that route, because I tried it early on when I got here to Allentown and I struggled with the politics of it a little bit. My politics around it. And I guess I have this sort of, it's probably the old-school way of just thinking about meeting people. I'm sure it's just an old-school way, and it just felt so manufactured in a way that I just can't quite get myself -- and I've met people who've met lifelong partners, they have great relationships. I've met younger lesbians who, great partners, starting families. All these things. I just don't seem to have the time or the energy to go through that kind of a thing. So yeah. LB: I understand. Obviously this was not a question that was written by me. And interestingly, the demographic of people who have answered yes to that were not people who are in our age or (inaudible) demographic, quite frankly. Because of that, I think it's tough to -- yeah, and especially now during COVID-19, it's the last thing that you would do. In fact, nobody has said to me, even the younger gay men who would say, "Well, you know I'm not a stranger to these things, but not now. I want to be alive." RC: That's the focus. LB: I mean, their response is, if there's somebody using this, what would that person be like? They would be exposing themselves in every situation. They'd be the most likely person to be carrying the disease. So I think that's a pretty interesting thing. So, are you limiting going out? Are you going to the grocery store or stuff like that? How is that? RC: I have a dog. I walk him three times a day, at least four or five miles. He kills me. And I do go to the grocery store. I just started going back to work to the office. I do try to limit my contact with people as much as I can. And so luckily we have these great parks and we can do that. I wear my mask. Yeah. LB: Yeah, we are lucky that we have great parks here, it's true. I feel, though, that in my -- I normally will walk for miles and miles and miles every day. I walk five miles every day. But I am paranoid of just walking out my door because every minute I see people walk right by on the sidewalk that are not wearing a mask, and I just, it's too much risk for me. And I don't feel like I want to drive to the park, because people (inaudible). While I was at the park, I walked around and then this person came up to me and tried to talk to me and they didn't wear a mask. And I thought, "I can't deal with it. Can't deal with it." RC: The park is right across the street from me, so I have both the rose garden and Cedar Beach just right there. LB: So great there, yeah. RC: Yeah. But I've been going to the fish hatchery early in the morning because he gets up like around six, six thirty, so hardly anybody's out at that point in time, and that's nice. But I do think I'm going to have to start curtailing my exposure a little bit more, simply because the surge is starting to, and so I have to be a little bit more cautious. LB: Yeah, yeah, I think it's true. And yet, you've got to move around, you know? And so I have a bicycle desk where we have our garden. We have a bicycle desk, so I try to do ninety minutes of that a day or something like that. But boy, it's tough. I know a lot of people who've gained a lot of weight. I know a lot of other people who've been very concerned about it, and they've made a big effort to not become stagnant and stuff. Because that's hard to get out of, too. You do that for a year, it's awful hard to turn that around. RC: I mean, it's so easy -- and I'm an introvert, so it didn't bother me to be at home. That didn't bother me. But what I did find is, it's easy just to close your eyes to nap. And I like naps, so naps are good. But the routine of it. So I have to get up and get moving, otherwise it's -- yeah. The sun comes in the window and all that kind of stuff. The dog's sleeping, you know. LB: Yeah. So, there's a question on here. And has it been hard to be out? And that really is for young people how are in circumstances where they're with families that are not supportive, and I would wonder that you might be coming in contact with students that might let you know that they might be out on campus but now they can't be that way at home. Have you come in contact with anybody that's in -- RC: That's my biggest concern when we went remote, is that -- so we have our GSAs. And most students, when they come to college is when they really feel they can express themselves fully, if they haven't come out. Now they're at home, they're cloistered, they're in quarantine, and either they go back into this space where they're not fully able to express themselves, or they try to find a way to find community. And how do we do that virtually? That's a difficult one, because they're in a situation where they have to maintain their safety because of COVID, so they can't be thrown out on the street where they have no way to protect themselves physically, because of this virus. And yet they can't protect themselves emotionally and mentally, either, because they can't really express themselves fully as queer folk. So we've been struggling with trying to provide virtual spaces by GSA where they can at least find a way to be in that space of GSA queer students for support. And so I am worried about how many of our queer students have supportive family members, and are safe either to come out or will stay isolated for fear of being pushed out and nowhere else to go. Particularly now. They may not be able to come back to campus, or their immune system would even allow them to come back to campus. That's the other thing. Some of our students can't come back because of that, so I'm very conscious, specifically, about our LGBT community because of that concern. That's a scary one, that's a scary one. And we were just beginning to, there's kind of a tipping point at Muhlenberg where more and more of our trans students know that before they even walk on campus, they can contact our registrar and say, "This is the name that I want on every single piece of documentation. I do now want to walk onto this campus and somebody call me by that name." And so they were very comfortable with this information and sharing it, before even I would know. Which is great. I don't need to have that information. Now, what I'm finding is there's a few students who I know who are transgender students who have not found a connection on campus and they're almost, I think a little bit of fear to let people know so they can make sure all the stuff happens earlier rather than later. And I think partly it's because there's a delay in their resources back home. That something's happening back home where they can't get the resources they need to make that connection on the other side, going into college. So I had a couple students who -- you probably have met a few of my students a few years ago, who had those issues at Muhlenberg where they actually quit. They came back a year later because they didn't want to be known by their dead name. They wanted to be known by the name (inaudible). Well, I don't know. I think our LGBT students are going to be, I hope that they're not subjected to violence. Both physically or emotionally, because they need to be themselves and they come out to their family members. LB: That certainly is a thing about going to college, where you can totally reinvent yourself. You can really explore (inaudible). You can totally be the gender you know yourself to be, and you don't have to answer to anybody. RC: No one. LB: And if there are people that have problems with it, particularly on the Muhlenberg campus, there are other people that are going to be your friends. And that can happen, but I think you get to a certain point once you've gone to college where when you go home you go, "Yeah, I can stand this at home for about two and a half days." And that's about it. Two and a half days, probably max a month for both me and my parents. I love them, they were great, but two and a half days max. And then I had to leave because -- and I'm always amazed at kids, students who will say, college-age students will say they talk to their mother every day. I'm like, really? (inaudible) No kidding. But I know that's much different now than it was then, when I was a kid and nobody talked to their parents about anything. Certainly not about sex. For heaven's sake, it's crazy. But good for them, if they can do that. I think it's wonderful, and it certainly makes families so that they don't have a maximum of two and a half days. Because (inaudible) be realistic, I think, but I think it's great. And I think it's great that there are colleges that are offering, and really supporting people. I mean, you're seeing it from the other perspective. From the way I see it, when people say things like, "Well, you know, is there a supportive college?" I can say, "Look, Muhlenberg College has gender neutral housing, for heaven's sake." Has had it for quite a while. So if you're saying, "Well, it's not up to date" or something, it's like, compared to what? You know, I guess, but I don't know. I think for colleges similar to Muhlenberg, they're pretty good. They're better than Illinois Wesleyan, I'll say that. RC: Poor Illinois. Yeah, we definitely done some work. We still got work to do, but yeah. And always, always. LB: And certainly, and now's the time to do it, I think. This is a good time to do it. I'm so glad to hear that students are demanding that kind of introspection now. It's a good thing. RC: It is a good thing. It's tiring, but it's a good thing. LB: It is really tiring. And young people want it now, too. [Get you?] everything right now. RC: And then they leave us. They're gone. Yup. LB: So, so what's giving you hope, now? What's giving you hope? RC: You know, just the new day. I think that every day that I'm not online looking at all the news is a good day. I think the fact that my friends are still healthy, I'm healthy. That November, oh God, please November -- I just hope, it was hard for me to see when John Lewis passed. When I saw that Ruth Ginsberg was back in the hospital, my heart. LB: I know. I started to cry. RC: I know, I love her. LB: Both of those. RC: So you know, I'm hopeful that these young congress people like Alexandria, Ayanna, and all those others, they are strong enough to hold fast, like Ruth and John Lewis. Because it's not like ten, twenty -- it's a lifetime. So -- LB: John was a lifetime of that. But I've got to tell you that when Ruth Bader Ginsberg was put on the court, she was pretty moderate. I mean, she was not seen as the leftist. She progressed. So we have that going for us, too. She may even roll back and become -- RC: But look at how -- oh God. LB: I know, I know. I know exactly what you mean. People who are looking at this in the future, we're talking about the Supreme Court. We're just groaning about the Supreme Court. RC: So I'm hopeful that we see more and more people that will run for city council. I'm glad Ce-Ce kept moving toward that direction. I thought she always wanted to be on the city council. She's on the city council. She's working with some very interesting people but she's on the city council. I want to see more young people take up that kind of work. I've heard that human, what was our -- LB: Human Relations Commission. RC: I've heard they're starting to move in a better way. I hope so. But they finally got a person who's actually going to be paid to do the job, after how many freaking -- yeah. So I think they need pressure on that group, and I'm hoping that the connections that the college says they want to make to Allentown -- because what I said to Muhlenberg College is, I think the city needs to hold Muhlenberg accountable. I mean, they are in the city of Allentown. Honestly, the work they do is not enough. I feel like if you want to be seen as experts in different fields of study, that's all great and dandy. But if you want to be seen as people who can be servants to the community at large, then you're not doing the job you've been called to do. And I think I would love to see the city be able to hold Muhlenberg accountable to that kind of framework. And I think that's what students are calling Muhlenberg to be. LB: Well, that's great to hear. RC: So that would be a fantastic shift, if we could make that. LB: I mean yeah, it's an integral part and it's not just like, "Don't go below Seventeenth street," kind of thing. You know, Adrian went there and he went below Seventeenth street and my first experience with him was him saying to me -- I don't know if you know this -- but the first thing he said to me was, Patty Middleman had him call me because he wanted to get the college to include gender identity in its nondiscrimination policy. And he said he wanted to get a petition and have them, and I said, "You don't have to do that because the city already has this law in place." The laws had been in place by the time he was a student -- I think it was in -- so we'd had it in place for two years. And I said, "The college has to follow it. You can't discriminate against -- so just tell them it's already in the law." So then he comes back with, "Well, the administration of the college said that because we're a not-for-profit, we don't have to follow the law." I said, "That's not true. That's ridiculous. What do you think, you think that the hospital doesn't have to follow the law, they can discriminate against black people? That's ridiculous." And he goes, "Oh, okay." And I said, "So, this is what you do. Don't worry about a petition. This is what you need to do." This is the last time he goes to me. Because he was, what, 18 then. So I said, "What you need to do is tell them that Lehigh already has the policy." (inaudible) on it like, you know, two seconds. RC: That [petition's?] going to be good. LB: And that, and also it's the law. It's the law and you can't -- and he was saying, "Well, it's a religious college." I said, "It's not a religious college." If it were a religious college -- I said, "Look, frankly, there are colleges in the Lehigh Valley -- DeSales, for example -- that is a religious college. Or even Cedar Crest, which it's all about the mission. And the mission of the college, if the mission of the college was to follow Lutheran principles -- which it is not, the mission of the college is to educate young people. That's what it is. Or just educate people in general. It's an education. That's the mission, that's it. They're not saying, "We're going to only do Lutherans." That's not what they say. Cedar Crest College's mission is to work for women in education. And so technically they can make decisions about gender with regard to how they educate people or whether they've inclusive or not, of men. They can say, "We don't want men in the dorms." Because it's their mission, if they want to do it. That's their mission. And DeSales has a right to say, "We follow Catholic principles," because they're a Catholic college. Everybody knows that. So Adrian then comes back, literally the next day and he has a meeting with the president. They had the policy changed in a couple of days. I said, "Just play the Lehigh card." And it totally did it. RC: I can see [Reggie Ham?] falling for that. LB: Yeah, totally. Well, it was Taylor. RC: Oh, it was Taylor! Oh, it was Taylor. I never got a chance to meet him. LB: He was, you know, the other thing is that he would meet with Adrian because Adrian was so pushy, and he was successful in doing it. And I have to also that back when Adrian was -- and I mention this all the time when I talk about GSAs -- when Adrian was the head of the GSA, there were seven hundred students in the GSA. There were forty-five. He was there, and then when he left there were forty-five again. But there were seven hundred, and the reason is he did really interesting fun, exciting events, and he just made that happen. He also made everybody go out and vote. It's a big deal. I think our college student vote is what will win this election for us, because that's the swing vote. RC: I hope so, I hope so. LB: That's why I do want them to come back, because Pennsylvania's a swing state and if they're in California it doesn't matter. Or New York, or D.C.. So, yeah. RC: I'm trying to be positive. Just hold out hope. LB: Try to be, try to be positive. Trying to be positive in the last election and we got kicked in the head. I know, I know. I mean, yeah. Shit. So, anyway, I think that's everything. I did want to, so here's one little thing. There's a question here that says, "What are your frustrations and challenges?" And you've already talked about some of that stuff, but have you had any like one little thing that's an epiphany about your life that you figured out? Like, now I'm home all the time I realize this about myself that's kind of frustrating, and I'll give you an example. It's that Trish is extraordinarily frustrated by -- I mean, the world, we wake up every morning, we're concerned about the world. But she's frustrated that she cannot shop for herself because it is costing so much more money than when you can go to buy something on sale. She can't find any sales for food, so it's costing us almost twice as much money for food because we will order by the list. So she'll say, "Get this chicken," and stuff like that. She can't go to the farmer's market because it's so dangerous there. And they won't do curbside pickup and stuff. Or a lot of the booths. And so she can't go to Elias Market, she can't go to Produce Mart because it's not really set up for that. And she said, "That's what's killing me. I need to get the sale on this thing." And that was the frustrating -- so has anything like that, where you started to think like, "Oh, this thing is the thing that's turning out to be so irritating for me?" I mean, in the grand scheme of things we're very, very privileged and we're lucky that we have a place to live, and food, and a job, and stuff like that. RC: I've been thinking ; I realized that three years ago, when my mother died, that I was not going to waste time enjoying me family and friends, and then COVID-19 happened and my best friend, who has leukemia, I can't be around her. And so she could die. And I would not be able to physically be with -- all this time, I cannot spend any time with her. And I wouldn't even, I wouldn't even want to be close to a human within six feet or ten feet. I just don't want the chance. So I think that that's the hard thing, is now when I finally realize don't waste time, time's all I got, that COVID-19 happened and I have no choice. LB: Yeah, we're just waiting for it to be over. I know exactly what you mean. I feel like we're older. For younger people it's sort of an inconvenience and, might not be so true for college students, but that sort of millennial who's thinking, "Well, I have to work differently and I can't go out to the bars and I can't see as many people," and stuff like that. But for me, I'm thinking like, "How many years do I have left? And am I wasting twenty percent of them hanging around the house?" RC: Yeah, I don't like that. LB: No, it's just (inaudible). We have to try to do projects that we wouldn't normally do, but we know they need to get done. RC: Yeah. Like painting my house. I don't know, and those things seem frivolous, but I don't know. We'll see. LB: That's what I've been doing, is fixing my house. RC: But you're a fixer. (inaudible) LB: I'm a butch dyke with two power tools, so -- RC: I have a lot of friends like that who are -- what's nice about it is that more and more young women that I've met, or colleagues of mine, have grown up being butch dykes but they're not. You know? They do all the things that I think they -- one of the scientists, and she just tore down her shed and built a new one. And it's this beautiful thing ; she has all these tools, and all the tool belts and everything, and it's just like amazing. So I love these young women of today because they are who we were, (inaudible). So I think that that's cool. But no, that's what I miss, is just not being with people that I really like to be close to. LB: I think another thing that really sucks is that people who need help -- like I have a friend who, a good friend, whose aunt died and she's the executor and she needs to clean out her house and stuff like that. And she had to do it all by herself. I said, "We would've all helped you. We could've done this in one day. We could've done this in one day, instead of you having to slog away with this. This would've been something." We knew the aunt. We just would've come in and done the whole thing. It could be all over, and we would've felt good about it. And instead you can't help somebody who's in that kind of situation. Can't come and fix something for you, or make you feel better, just make you feel less lonely. People who have had those losses that we can't be with them, is really awful. Well anyway, it's wonderful to hear about really positive things. A number of the things that you said about the students are very heartening for me. I'm sucking out as much hope as I can out of this, because we all need to get that. So it's wonderful to hear about (inaudible). Well, and I just think that they're the ones that are going to save us in this world right now. And I think that this kind of circumstance is upsetting, but for young people they're not disillusioned. They're angry, and that's the way I want them to be. RC: I agree. If they can use that anger for good, that's fabulous. Go for it. LB: Because often, I don't know about you, but often I just think, "Ugh, could this be any worse? What else?" You know? (inaudible) It can't be -- oh, there's another thing! RC: Oh my God, there's always something else, you're right. LB: It's just awful. And it's in the way. And so I think young people look at that and (inaudible) "I want to do something. Got to march about this." And that's what I want to see them do, because they're not just sitting back saying, "Oh, this is so awful. There's nothing we can do about it." I like hearing that, and I like hearing when young people say, "If this doesn't work, we'll take it. We need to take this." And I like to hear them say that. Scary, but I have to hear them say it. Because that's where they need to be, I think. RC: We haven't seen that kind of apathy yet, which I am thankful for. LB: Well, good for you, Robin. Thank you so much for talking to me. It's been terrific, and I usually ask people if they want to say anything else to somebody in the, 30 years from now and going to look back and, no, you're pretty much -- RC: No, all I have to say is that I was here and I hope that I made, this video is just to say that we all got work to do -- LB: It is, it is. And we're working, and I hope the people watching it in the future will say, "Yeah, it worked." RC: That would be nice -- LB: But they know the future. RC: Yeah. Only they will know. LB: They needed to also know what you were doing in the present, and thank you so much for telling me about that and being, let's see if I can say the thing. And, to give me your time and thank you so much. It was great to talk to you. I miss talking to you, so -- RC: It's been a while. LB: It has been a long time. Ridiculously long time. (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) Thank you, and going to turn off the recording now. END OF VIDEO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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01:11:49
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Robin Casey, July 21, 2020
Description
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Robin Casey talks about how the current COVID-19 pandemic is affecting her as a faculty member at a local college. She talks about her concerns regarding the opening of the college during the pandemic, the LGBT students who need support, and the relationship of the college and students to the Black Lives Matter movement in regards to recent police brutality issues in Allentown.
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PH40_25
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
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2020-07-21
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Copyright remains with the interview subject and their heirs.