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https://lgbt.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/6df75b76c76c512af877a1741a061f02.png
e4823686b00b9cef9cbb0d4d8adcad13
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Title
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
An account of the resource
In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Liz Bradbury
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Chloe Cole-Wilson
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_24.xml
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COVID-19
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka
5.4 July 14th, 2020 Chloe Cole-Wilson, July 14, 2020 PH40_24 01:24:56 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 COVID-19 Activism Pandemic Chloe Cole-Wilson Liz Bradbury video/mpeg Coles-WilsonChloe_20200714_video.mp4 1.0:|27(2)|50(8)|85(2)|116(5)|141(9)|164(2)|183(6)|210(11)|251(14)|274(8)|299(16)|324(5)|347(4)|376(17)|399(14)|428(3)|449(13)|476(12)|499(14)|526(6)|553(2)|576(9)|599(15)|624(14)|649(9)|672(5)|691(13)|716(9)|737(13)|766(9)|793(15)|818(11)|841(7)|862(11)|887(11)|914(8)|937(2)|960(12)|985(17)|1012(16)|1041(15)|1076(3)|1103(15)|1130(18)|1151(7)|1174(2)|1199(5)|1224(16)|1249(5)|1278(15)|1303(15)|1326(18)|1347(5)|1370(7)|1393(6)|1416(13)|1439(8)|1460(4)|1481(10)|1510(7)|1531(11)|1550(16)|1573(11)|1600(9)|1625(17)|1644(11)|1667(14)|1696(2)|1719(12)|1744(6)|1769(5)|1794(15)|1821(11)|1842(4)|1865(9)|1886(15)|1917(3)|1940(8)|1969(11)|1992(9)|2017(5)|2052(5)|2081(20)|2114(5)|2149(5) 0 https://youtu.be/6bYdJH4BdhE YouTube video 0 Interview Introduction LIZ BRADBURY: -- a little problem. Okay. So there we go, and I’m going to turn the audio on too. Now, I’m going to read you these -- this piece -- this intro. Oh, turn off my phone. (laughs) I write that right on here, so I don’t forget to do it. 
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 ; CHLOE COLE-WILSON: (laughs)
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 ; LB: And I want to also pin -- oops -- pin you in this. Okay. It’s good. Pin in the video, I got the audio, okay, it’s good, and record it. So with this project, Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury, and I’m here with Chloe Cole-Wilson -- is that right -- to -- 
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 ; CCW: Right.
 ; Activism ; Allentown ; Bethlehem ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; COVID-19 ; Liz Bradbury ; Project SILK Lehigh Valley 0 207 Description of Project SILK Lehigh Valley + COVID Experiences LB: Okay. Oh, so here are some of these thing. And so I already sent these questions. And the concept of the archive, I like to think about it as that there will be people who will, hopefully, look at this many years in the future to see what it was like for people at this point in the COVID epidemic in the Lehigh Valley who are part of the core community to get sort of an idea. Because there have been other circumstances with pandemics and epidemics where we really didn’t talk about people’s personal experiences. You can say anything you want about this. I have some of those questions. You can answer those, or you can think about those. I’ll ask those if you want, but you can say whatever you want. But let’s start out with this, are you by yourself in your home or do you have other people there or what’s the deal? 
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 ; CCW: It’s myself and my partner and then we have three other roommates.
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 ; LB: Oh, okay, okay. I know the answers to some of these things, but you could talk about this for the archives. Have you been working, has your employer closed or laid off, and why don’t you talk about a little bit what you do? 
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 ; CCW: Yeah. So I am program coordinator for Project SILK Lehigh Valley, which is an LGBT drop-in center that focuses on Black and brown youth. So a lot of the work that I’ve been doing during this time is just planning, programming, and getting the Valley Youth House staff in a place where they feel comfortable providing services virtually while also responding to crisis. During this time, we did have a few youth that became homeless and so it was trying to respond to those needs as quickly as we possibly could with -- considering my safety, my staff’s safety, and things like that, the youth safety, so yeah. Chloe Coles-Wilson ; COVID-19 ; Liz Bradbury ; Project SILK Lehigh Vally 0 340 HIV + STI Testing during COVID-19 
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 ; CCW: Mm-hmm. So a lot of what we did was six feet, we stayed six feet away, we were masked up. We supplied some hand sanitizer to our workers and things like that. But I was one of the only workers that was really out working with a youth who was identifying as like unsheltered and was living in what -- in Allentown, what people would call it as like tent city where folks -- where all the unsheltered folks kind of cohabitate together and exist. So a lot of it was just like dropping things off on the corner and being like, “Hey, these items are here. I will wait for you to pick up these items.” And then, you know, sometimes because we are in partnership with a shelter as well, to give and provide HIV, STI testing but also provide sexual health counseling and things like that. In those moments, we were meeting outside on the porch six feet away. Now that restrictions have lessened, we’ve been doing some more contact work with our other sites. There’s been some very interesting things that I’ve done to try to appease the youth and provide the service, you know? 
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 ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; COVID-19 ; HIV ; Liz Bradbury ; STI 0 532 The Impact on the Youth + Activism in the Arts Park CCW: And it’s like a central place, so kids coming from all over the city will be able to just kind of know where it is, access where it is, and it kind of works. And also too, we might be able to interact with new youth there because there has been a lot of youth out because of the protesting, the Black Lives Matter protests that are happening right now, which is -- it’s so crazy because that’s on the other end of the work that I do. I also have an arts organization called Basement Poetry. And we’ve been doing some activism and advocacy around just like so many things, police brutality, inclusive shelters that will allow trans and gender nonbinary folks to identify in the identity that is theirs. Because if they cannot, it is a health risk. So that’s been something that we’ve been really talking a lot about with these other organizations that are Black and brown ran. 
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 ; It’s how to have inclusive spaces. Talking with city council about this. When we’re defending the police like when this funding starts trickling down, making sure these organizations are anti-racist, making sure these organizations are anti-oppressive. That’s another piece of this too. But what’s interesting is the area like... Because the kids are so like, “I don't know what’s going on, I don’t know what to do with myself,” so they’ve been out. They’ve just been out hanging out. So I’m hoping that we can foster a space for youth that are just like migrating and hanging out. 
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 ; A place for them to be a little bit that’s a little bit more supervised, that’s safe, that gives them access to services. Because it’s been very interesting how like all the protests have rolled out and just youths, kind of, just hanging out in the city. Basement Poetry ; BLM ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; COVID-19 ; Liz Bradbury 0 672 Talking with Friends and Family Over Zoom LB: Well, Leonardo never made that horse, but other people have taken the designs that he made it and then they recreated it in a couple of different places, and that’s one of the places where it is. His design was much bigger than that, but it’s pretty, and it’s Leonardo, a genius who was gay, so, one of our ancestors. So for you personally in terms of communicating with people in your family or other -- of friends that you may not be able to be near with regard to social distancing and stuff, have you been using a lot of electronic conversations? Like where have you -- 
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 ; CCW: Oh yeah. It’s like Zoom, I -- even just today for work, I was on nothing but Zoom calls. Instagram Live is like our outreach pool, so we can say, “Hey, this is what we’re doing.” But with friends and family, I’m always on the phone, I’m always texting. It’s been really hard. I will say there were moments during this whole continuing on in this pandemic where I’m like, “I need to see my mom, I’m going to go see my mom, I don’t care, I’m seeing her, I don’t care, I just -- I can’t,” you know?
 ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; Leonardo da Vinci ; Liz Bradbury ; Zoom 0 878 Youth's Right to Shelter CCW: I guess one of my biggest concerns is shelter, right? I think that when... I have a very special relationship with one of our clients. When I had discovered that they were struggling in this way and had no place to go, I’m like, all right, so I’m going to go, and I’m going to hunt down all of my resources, so I’m pulling out all the resource guides, pulling out all the books that I’ve created and put together, all the protocol. And I’m looking at them and I’m like, There’s nothing that will work for this young person. And this young person is not under the age of 18, so it’s not like I can call Valley Youth House shelter. This young person is identifying as nonbinary, so it’s like putting them in a shelter can be so difficult. And Salvation Army and all of these other shelters are very religious, and there is follow your faith and do what is best in your practice and in your meeting and -- you know what I mean? That’s what nonprofits are, right? Like a lot of people start nonprofits from their hearts, right? 
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 ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; Shelter ; Valley Youth House Shelter ; Youth 0 1070 Allentown School Closings LB: -- high school seniors or college seniors? 
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 ; CCW: High school seniors. It was so immensely frustrating with how [00:18:00] everything -- the information was coming down and how everything was handled. Everything was very like just put together, which I get. We’ve never been... Our folk, I would at least say the generations like Millennials and Gen Z’s have never been through something like this. So you have half of the population that’s never been through a crisis and the other half who has experience with this kind of things. It’s just such a cluster of all of these mixed experiences, anyways. But with the schools, like the Allentown School District weren’t getting the things that they need right away. There was a moment where the kids didn’t even go to school for like -- or have any formal education for three and a half weeks, almost a month until April. In the midst of April, they were able to get like Wi-Fi to youth, [00:19:00] hotspots to youth, and technology to youth, and that was another concern of mine too. So, again, it was just like that just misinformed and then explaining to the youth that this happens sometimes. But when it consistently happens, they’re like, “What is going on?” and so then they’re in crisis, right, and they’re freaking out like, “What’s going on? I need answers,” you know what I mean, so... 
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 ; LB: Yeah. Young people really look to older people to fix things and explain things to them, and we have no answers on this. I mean I’m sixty-three years old, and there’s nothing in my life experience that compares to this. I can say that I know somebody who is one hundred four years old who’s been in the center by the way, who was alive during the flu epidemic of 1918. And that’s the only other thing that’s comparable to this one because [we?] had the flu. Because even if you look at HIV/AIDS, which was a very different thing, it wasn’t like everybody had it, and it was really [00:20:00] hard to get it. I mean, you can’t just get AIDS. You have to have sex with people and be involved with people. That’s not the same situation. On the other hand right now, every single -- this is a hopeful thing that you can say to youth is that every single scientist in the world that knows about this kind of stuff is working on this issue, which wasn’t true for AIDS. Nobody did anything about that for years -- 
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 ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; High school seniors ; Liz Bradbury 0 1166 Police Brutality and AIDS LB: Yeah. Young people really look to older people to fix things and explain things to them, and we have no answers on this. I mean I’m sixty-three years old, and there’s nothing in my life experience that compares to this. I can say that I know somebody who is one hundred four years old who’s been in the center by the way, who was alive during the flu epidemic of 1918. And that’s the only other thing that’s comparable to this one because [we?] had the flu. Because even if you look at HIV/AIDS, which was a very different thing, it wasn’t like everybody had it, and it was really hard to get it. I mean, you can’t just get AIDS. You have to have sex with people and be involved with people. That’s not the same situation. On the other hand right now, every single -- this is a hopeful thing that you can say to youth is that every single scientist in the world that knows about this kind of stuff is working on this issue, which wasn’t true for AIDS. Nobody did anything about that for years -- 
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 ; CCW: For -- yeah.
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 ; LB: -- and years and people just died, all over the place. Really, it sounds like such a tricky thing when you have young people who want these answers, and they’re not going to really put up with you saying, I don't know. 
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 ; CCW: Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean? I feel like all of my youth that I work with, I’ve known them for a very long time since Project SILK started. And so they are built with the same tenacity that I have and the same questioning of authority, questioning of the system, the same activist spirit. So I kind of set myself up to have these awesome kids that will advocate for themselves, but then in these situations I’m like, Why did I do this? (laughs) It’s been very complex. And even for my team, it’s been very hard to figure out how to have these conversations without having the meltdown. But luckily, we’re going to be starting some therapy services in August, so I think that’s going to really help with some of these, like this processing of all the things that are happening. And including the trauma that we are constantly exposed to with the Black Lives Matter, the police brutality but not just Black Lives Matter but like police brutality and systematic racism and microaggressions and all of these experiences that they’re having. They’re also processing that too at the same time that they’re processing a pandemic, and we’re in this in this civil unrest, and it’s like -- it’s a lot. They’re going through a lot right now. And then also, they’re seeing the systems start to crumble in front of them. So it’s like they were aware before that things weren’t good. But then when you’re not getting educated and your peers in the Whitehall School District or Parkland Area School District and Bethlehem Area School District are all on the computers doing their homework while you’re just waiting, it really does go to show you the barriers and how the system fails. And so many youth were responding to that like, “What do I do, what --? How do I respond to this?” And it’s just like email, email congress, email your local reps, make sure people know and are on top of what’s happening in your school. 
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 ; AIDS ; Allentown School District ; Black Lives Matter ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; HIV ; Liz Bradbury ; Police Brutality 0 1376 Importance of Voting LB: Right, right, right. Register to vote because some of them will be old enough too, so, you know? 
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 ; CCW: Mm-hmm. Our kids right now are aging out -- not aging out, but they’re coming out of that phase where they’re in the drop-in center all the time. So the kids to that are in the drop-in center all the time between the ages of like 14 to 17. And then once they graduate high school, they’re really focused on their life and themselves and getting things together. So a lot of times, they’re not spending a lot of time there. So we have a lot of older youth there, so I’m always encouraging them to vote and be a part of and know your local government because that is where you have a lot of power and say in what happens here. 
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 ; LB: Whenever I used to talk to running a voter’s -- an LGBT voter’s organization -- it’s called [PAL?], and we did that for many, many years -- one of the things we talk to people about is being a super voter. And a super voter is a person who votes in every election in the primary for four years in a row. And whether or not you vote is a matter of public record. So any person can get a list that shows whether or not you voted this in the primary and then that stuff, in the main election every year for years and years. And when you write a letter or you write an email or you write a card to your state representative, they look up to see whether you vote. That’s why they pay more attention to old people than they do to young people because older people vote -- are more likely to vote. So when they look at your super voter status or they’ll look to see and if you’re a super voter, they’ll listen to you. And if you’re not a voter, you’re not even registered, they figure, oh, you’re not going to vote for me anyway, who cares? And they really do that, and it’s a shame, but it’s true. And that’s the whole thing about the voice of voting because in the Obama elections, youth, college students and 18-year-olds put him in office. That’s the swing vote. That is the swing vote. And during the Obama election, Adrian organized -- sent hundreds of kids to go and vote at the voter’s places. And he was there at Muhlenberg College, and after he left, they stopped doing that. So like hundreds and hundreds of people were voting and then all of a sudden, they weren’t. And one of the things about us being in Pennsylvania is it’s a swing state. It really matters in Pennsylvania as opposed to like -- New York is always pretty liberal and New Jersey is pretty liberal, and people tend not to. It’s not so close, but it’s very close here. So that’s great that they’re doing that, good for them. Have you been talking to any of the youth and also for yourself stuff about Dr. Rachel Levine being our secretary of health, and she’s the one that’s been there in the health. And now what do you -- have you had a chance to see her and talk to youth about her? Allentown ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; Liz Bradbury ; Voting ; Youth 0 1570 Transgender Empowerment CCW: Yeah. A lot of youths are very upset with the way she’s treated. I think that that for our trans youth, like that has been the most difficult part of all of this is... Before the Black Lives Matter movement was like -- had this visceral showing up, we were really trying to manage conversations around transphobia. And every time because we’re seeing Rachel Levine, at one point we were seeing her almost every single day, which is beautiful. With style and grace, style and grace, she would like -- was amazing onstage and was amazing with giving us the information we needed, was very clear and concise, and was about to give us information that wasn’t too doctor-y, too wordy, or too -- or filled with things that didn’t matter to us, right? 
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 ; LB: Yeah. 
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 ; CCW: And it’s like even through that, even through all of that beauty and poise and intelligence, it’s like people were still just questioning her gender consistently. And I think for our clients, it was more so like, “Well, can that -- will that happen to me if I decide to do something like that? Am I possible?” Those are conversations, and we really worked with her and [Goodwin?]. We had a group, a trans health group that was really powerful, and we talked a lot about -- they talked a lot about passing and things like that. And how that is maybe important for your transition but also it’s not important for the social world. Like you don’t need to set up for hyper masculine or hyper feminine identities or these belief systems or these systems, like you don’t need to do that, right? And so, I don’t know. Some interesting conversations happened, and sometimes it would happen sporadically with our young people, so... Chloe Coles-Wilson ; Liz Bradbury ; Rachel Levine ; Trans ; Youths 0 1788 Lehigh Valley's Progressiveness
 ; CCW: And you’re in... You are representing an identity that people don’t want to embrace. Like I know for a while even myself when I was in chats, in conversations with my -- just like my family, we always have that conversation of “Why are you asking whether or not what her gender is? Like this is bad. It’s not the conversation we need to be having. She is giving us the most important health information day to day, and we need to listen to that. That has nothing to do with anything.” I think it’s a culture shock for Pennsylvania because I feel like sometimes we dress up. Especially in the Lehigh Valley, we dress up like we’re -- oh my God, we’re so progressive, yay, but we’re really not. We’re really behind on a lot of things. I always say to people, I’m like, “We’re always about ten -- five to ten years behind because like --” 
 ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; Lehigh Valley ; Liz Bradbury ; Progressive 0 1902 The Marginalized People LB: I know. I grew up in a suburb of New York City, and it was so conservative there. It was ridiculously conservative there. My parents were the only people who were democrats, and it doesn’t even mean that that’s radically... They were the only democrats that we knew in the entire town in the suburb. And now, it’s really one of the most progressive areas of the United States and Connecticut. So it’s an interesting thing to see, I guess. But that does happen in the suburbs, and it’s a shame, and we shouldn’t let them get away with it. There’s no question of it. I’d love to live in the city where it’s not like that per se, per se. I mean there are still issues, you know. 
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 ; CCW: Oh, for sure, for sure, for sure. It’s been very interesting. It’s been very interesting to see the hate because you -- like because I work... My life is working like LGBTQ+ folks, the marginalized people, I’m always in spaces -- not always, let me take that back. I’m mostly in spaces where I’m accepted genuinely pretty much. I’ll deal with microaggressions, and I’ll deal with moments of racism and things like that, which I’m not negating, but for the most part, I’m not like in fear of my life, right? But -- what was I going to say. But, yeah, but like I know that, and I’m now aware that this space is not safe all the time. And when I was starting to see those messages and the way -- and the comments about Rachel Levine and her appearance and the way she was presenting or whatever the case maybe and just like the little, snarky things that they would say about her, I’m like, holy crap, we are really behind. And I would have never thought that, but then again, I have to remind myself, I’m in certain spaces because of my work life. I have a girlfriend and our family’s very accepting. We have a language barrier. They speak Spanish, so there’s always like a cultural catcher, but other than that, my family’s very loving. There’s a lot of education around nonbinary and trans folk. And I’m always doing that work with them every day, and they’re always very accepting and loving. But like I forget, I forget, I really do. 
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 ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; LGBTQ+ ; Liz Bradbury ; New York City ; Progressive ; Rachel Levine 0 2056 The Writer's Surprise LB: Yeah. It’s amazing though because you could be talking to people who you just think are wonderful. My dad was a major -- I mean he worked with Martin Luther King, and he edited his books, and he was really, really involved with him when he was in New York City and stuff. And he was talking about all this, and he didn’t... I knew that he did these things, and he was very, very positive, and he had gay friends and he -- and stuff. And then all of a sudden, he -- I was saying... We lived in Connecticut, and I said, “So that place where we lived, where we went swimming, was that a restricted place?” and he goes, “Yeah, of course.” I’m like, “Wha-- why would you do that?" And then he’s telling me about this club for writers and editors and stuff that he belonged to in New York City -- it was called the Coffee House -- where people in literature were members of this club. It was only for men, and I said, “Well, yeah, because there’s no women writers. I mean --”
 ; Connecticut ; Liz Bradbury ; Martin Luther King ; New York City 0 2159 The Racists World is Changing CCW: Right. I don't know. I feel like... And now as I’m thinking of the Black Lives Matter movement, I feel like the current administration definitely has tapped some souls and some wounds on some people and had opened up this space of like, Well now, I don’t have to be silent about my bigotry, but it’s expressive, it’s beautiful that they don't have to be silent anymore. It’s very strange to see. It’s very strange to see this. It’s very weird how folks who are very supportive of Trump and who are racists will open up and be like, “Oh, I feel safer now. Now that he’s in office, I can say what I want to say, and all lives matter,” and so then -- you know what I mean? Like, ah, I don’t know. But I will say that like I... 
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 ; It’s something I’ve learned in this -- in the very short amount of time that I’ve done a lot -- the activism that I’ve done. In the last five years, I’ve just learned that racists are in a different place, and they will come down when they are ready. They will work on their stuff when they are ready, and being triggered by them will do nothing for you. And so that’s something I’ve really been working a lot on especially with our youth. Like you’re going to see racist things. George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Nina Pop, Tony McDade, these are all racist acts of state sanctioned violence or police brutality, right? You’re going to see these things. 
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 ; This is the unfortunate and sad world that we are in. But we have to turn our rage into something else, right, because we will -- we’ll self-destruct. And that was something I took a lot -- it took me a really long time to really work on. Because I’m just like any time that I experience a microaggression or any racism, I would get so hot and so angry. And I would be in this place of just kind of thinking about it and letting it churn in my head for weeks and weeks and months on end and then I’m recognizing that like I haven’t, one, done anything about it, and, two, I’m making myself sick. 
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 ; So it’s been something that I’ve been really working actively on is not even responding to the racist comments on Morning Call, the racist comments that are seen on WFMC, especially when -- as we’re talking about the movement and as we’re processing the things that are happening around us. Because also, too, racists are going through -- and not that I’m giving them any empathy at all whatsoever, but racists are going through a huge change in their whole life. Everything is changing around them. The Redskins have dropped their name and logo, so that’s -- for a lot of people who are committed to that team, that’s hard, you know what I mean? And I’m, whatever, this is what you’re processing. I’m processing death and safety ; you’re processing a logo. That’s cool. That’s fine. Black Lives Matter ; Chloe Cole-Wilson ; Racism ; Trump 0 2362 The Changing World of Racism CCW: -- I don’t know. It’s very interesting to watch racist folks just kind of implode and like -- and white America too in general to just implode and be like, holy crap, I have to do all this work now. I have to process my identity, I have to process myself, I have to really watch my microaggressions, I have to do all this. It’s been really intense for everyone. It’s been a lot for everyone. I don’t have much empathy for that, but I will say that like I think we have to put into consideration as we’re doing this work that everyone is at a different place. And so that’s really been healing for me because I’ve been -- I get really wrapped up in what people say. I get really wrapped up in it sometimes and so I’m like, no, no, no, no, I’ve got to let it go. Morning Call is going to be racist comments because it’s been -- we’re in Pennsylvania, so... (laughs) Chloe Coles-Wilson ; Racism 0 2549 Changes in Philosophy LB: “-- stop just thinking that it’s hard to do this because it’s change.” And I think that’s a very good point that you’re making and it’s a... And it does drive you crazy, and you have to stop ha-- I don’t have any empathy for racists even though when people would say things like, “Well, you know it’s hard and they...” I can’t, I can’t and maybe it’s because I’m older but I just -- like there is just... There’s a very important saying that hit me very hard years ago and it was you cannot make compromises with people who don’t think that everybody should -- that minority people and disenfranchised people should have equal rights because they would deny us oxygen if they could. So ask -- expect every equality, expect total equity because if you say, “Well, we’ll take this half nod from you,” they don’t even want to give us oxygen, come on, you know? They be -- yeah. 
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 ; Change ; Liz Bradbury ; Minorities ; Racism 0 2829 The Life of an Everyday Person During COVID-19 LB: -- say it hasn’t, it has. Have you noticed anything that is just glaringly different for you? 
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 ; CCW: Oh, I feel like my sleep cycle, sleep has changed immensely. So I already was a night owl, so two o'clock was the cap. That was like I’m up too late, I’m going to go to sleep. But when COVID started and because I was working at home, and all I had to do was like wake up, put on a T-shirt, make sure -- put on my pajama pants, make sure I look somewhat decent, and I’m ready to go, I had all the time in the world. I didn’t have a 30-minute commute. I like to say 30 minutes because I like to take my time driving and listening to music and stuff. But I have a 30-minute commute, and get ready in the morning will be another [00:48:00] hour so that’s an hour and a half that I’ve now saved. But I -- because of the anxiety of the pandemic and the anxiety of not knowing what’s going to happen next, and as the pandemic went through and then now we’re in this civil unrest -- at the end of May we’re in the civil unrest, my sleep schedule is like whatever, you know what I mean? I’ll wake up in six o'clock in the morning and then I’ll start. I’ll answer some emails, I’ll casually do some filing, organize some things, get myself kind of prepared for the day and then I’ll go back to sleep and then I’ll wake up again. My sleep has been so off because we’re -- I’m just so comfortable with being at home, and I get so stir-crazy. So that was one of the biggest changes. Now, my partner is an essential worker. Well, I don’t even like using that term, but she has to go outside to work. And for her, she’s -- everything is the same. If you were to ask her this question, she’d be like, “I don’t think my life has changed much, I just miss my family” because she has older parents. Her mom is like forty-eight and her dad sixty-three. Well, her mom is not older ; it’s her dad that’s older. So they couldn’t see each other, and he’s already had cancer in his health history, and he has diabetes. So things are really like we cannot see them at all whatsoever. That’s just a no go. We can’t even take the risk, you know what I mean? So for her, that’s the only thing that she would say, but other than that, all parts of her life is kind of like the same, you know?
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 ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; COVID-19 ; Liz Bradbury ; Routines 0 3108 Biggest Pandemic Fear LB: Yeah. Well, people are scared. So are you scared about getting it? 
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 ; CCW: I think my biggest fear about getting it is -- oh. I feel like my biggest fear about getting it is it’s just transferring it to older people in my life like my grandmother. So my grandmother is also sixty-three. She’s spry, she’s doing her thing, she doesn’t have any serious health issues, and she’s very, very, very, very health conscious and very -- and eats very well and cares about her diet, cares about her, all of that stuff, so... But that’s my biggest fear with getting it. As for me getting it, I’m a young, healthy person, and from the statistics, young and healthy people usually live and survive and sometimes become asymptomatic. So that’s something I was holding on to for a while. Because even when I was working with youth out on the ground, I had a scare where I was like, oh, snap, this youth is getting tested. So I had to quarantine until her results came in and that was really terrifying. But it was mostly terrifying because of the way like work set it up. They’re like, “You can’t do anything, none of this, no, no, no, no, no.” And I’m just like, “Oh, okay,” and it made COVID-19 really real for me. (laughs)
 ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; COVID-19 ; Grandmother ; Grocery Store ; Liz Bradbury 0 3208 Client's Low Income Mother Has COVID-19 CCW: Yes, I did, I did. Not any of like my close immediate friends, but a client’s mother had it. So that for that client -- and that was another moment during this pandemic that was interesting was a lot of our clients because they’re low-income folk, a lot of them who are... And especially if they’re like fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, they’re the caregivers in their home. So teaching a young person how to be a caregiver for a disease that we don’t understand or a virus we don’t understand was one of the -- one of my most challenging moments with this young person. Because it really was like -- you have books on how to take care of your younger siblings, you have all this education. But it’s like how do you take care of your mother who’s also -- has asthma, has COVID-19, and how do you, one, have her quarantine in your home when you have one bathroom? So it was like creating a whole new plan with this young person on how to keep the house healthy while also having them literally run the household. For that young person, it was so scary, it was so frightening, you know? It’s like, holy crap, now I have to do all these things that I didn’t think I had to do in these two weeks. Before I was doing it, but now, it’s a little different because mom is like completely out of the picture, you know, what I mean because she has to self-quarantine, so -- yeah.
 ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; Client's mother ; COVID-19 ; Low Income 0 3317 Chloe Coles-Wilson's Concern For Her Mother CCW: That too was like one of my -- if -- concerns about COVID too is like if my mom were to get sick, you know what I mean. My mom is -- I think she’s turning fifty this year, so she’ll be forty-nine. Well, she’ll be forty-nine -- she’ll be fifty ; she’s forty-nine. If she got sick and I couldn’t see her, I would be a mess. I would be a mess, and I would be a mess, I would be very upset and devastated especially if like she died and she died without even me knowing. Because I think like a lot of -- a lot about COVID-19 that has been very complex and difficult is the messaging between the providers and the patient’s families. Because they’re so focused on keeping themselves safe, keeping the hospital safe, keeping the people that are in the hospital safe, keeping all the patients safe, separating the non-COVID patients from the COVID patients. So this whole like I’m going to get back to this family about a death that just happened is maybe happening a little bit later in the day, you know what I mean? Even though it’s a huge deal for the family, but for them, their list of worries is so large. You were constantly seeing that in the news too of like... And again, more conspiracy theory of these folks just struggling to get information to people but also struggling to take care of their patients because they’re -- it was just so much. It’s so much. And even now, one of my staff members was like, “I’m very afraid,” and I was like, “What are you afraid of?” And I get what she’s afraid of, but she’s just like. “I’m afraid of the uptick and what is going to happen with the hospitals again because the hospitals were packed for so long.” It’s just such a general fear of like there’ll not be enough of anything, so... 
 ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; Cole Coles-Wilson's Mother ; COVID-19 0 3454 Civil Unrest During the Pandemic LB: Well, what’s the biggest frustration you’re having from all of this stuff? I mean we’re talking about a variety of things but... 
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 ; CCW: I think my biggest frustration is us in civil unrest during a pandemic. I think that is the hardest part of all of this is that. It’s, oh, like you would think that with the... Because what I’ve noticed, at least, in my social circles is like everyone who is on unemployment, they’re getting the extra six hundred dollars a week, so they’re now making money. And I’m a professional, and I’m in a management position, you know what I mean, so you would think I get the big bucks at this point, but no, definitely not. But people are making more money than me, right? So there is this sense of happiness amongst the people of my life, you know what I mean, especially since like we -- like my families have been very poor and low income. So I’ve noticed that there have been a lot of folks who are low income just experience just kind of some happier moments, you know what I mean? Because there’s more money and there’s more funds and there’s more things available. Who was that going on with this? What was the question again for -- 
 ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; Civil Unrest ; Money ; Pandemic ; Stimulus Checks 0 3564 Civil Unrest in the Transgender Community LB: Well, you were -- 
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 ; CCW: -- you -- 
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 ; LB: -- talking about civil unrest. You were talking about -- 
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 ; CCW: Yes, yes, okay, there we go, sorry. But at the same time, you would think that like police brutality wasn’t going to be happening during this time. You would think like the amount of Black transwomen who have died, six transwomen died in a week, that is absolutely ridiculous, you know what I mean? There has been just so much police brutality, trans violence, racism, systematic racism, and it’s like it doesn’t stop. And so think that’s the most frustrating because I’m watching my friends and then family finally get like a leg up. They get this extra money, people are saving, they’ve got the extra 1200. Some people kind of financially did pretty well during this whole thing and then it’s like this violence continues on. But racism is going to continue, and that system is going to continue on, and it’s like, damn, when are we going to catch a break, so... And I would get mostly frustrated with people pushing back about the protests and pushing back about why are people outside, and I get it, I get it. We’re in a pandemic, but people need to move, people need to do this work. I’ve been really proud of a lot of activists who have been finding ways to get folks who cannot be out involved, and that has been really good, but it’s -- you know. I think that’s my biggest frustration is the civil unrest and how we’re still dealing with these big crises on such a larger level? Because Tony McDade, Nina Pop, Breonna Taylor, and George Floyd, they happened almost in a couple of months, right? It’s like the same time frame, so it’s like, holy crap, that is insane. What is happening here? Yeah, that’s my biggest frustration. Breonna Taylor ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; George Floyd ; Liz Bradbury ; Nina Pop ; Tony McDade ; Transgender 0 3700 Bradbury's Take on Police Brutality LB: You know what I think about that though as? I think about that kind of horrible racist crime has been going on with that ferocity all along but that now, people are say -- First of all, they have -- always have their cameras with them with their video, and so there’s been so much more live video footage of this happening so that other people can’t say, “Well, that’s just not happening, it didn’t really happen that way, these people shouldn’t have been -- they caused what happened to them.” And you say, “Look at this, that’s not what happened, look, look at this.” And the other thing is that I think people are fed up with it and so when it happens, they’re making a public issue about it, which I don’t think has happened as much in the last 20 years as it’s doing now. And in part it is because people are... I mean people are speaking up about it more, which I think is very, very positive to me I mean for white people who are clueless and I have people... I know plenty of white people who are clueless and certainly some people in my family and other parts of my family who will just try to look for some kind of excuse for this kind of stuff, and they’re seeing these videos, and they’re saying -- I’m saying, “You can’t look at this and say --” this is what happened in Allentown. “You cannot look at this and say this was all right. You have to stretch beyond any kind of credibility to say that this nine-minute video shows appropriate action by the police. It doesn’t ; it just doesn’t. And if you’re saying that, you’re lying because it just doesn’t say that.” I watched that video six times, and I wrote down every single thing that happened in it. And I saw -- I -- the police said that they had -- that the man had fallen down and they fell down with him. When you watch the video, you can see the police kicked his feet out from under him and pushed him to the ground. They lied in their public -- 
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 ; George Floyd ; Liz Bradbury ; Police Brutality ; White People 0 3913 Discussion About Policing CCW: Exactly. Because policing is a very toxic culture, you know what I mean? 
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 ; LB: Yes. 
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 ; CCW: And after a while, once you -- because even -- and even in the line of social work, I’ve seen some things, I’ve heard some awful, horrendous, terrible stories. And I’ve only been doing -- I’ve been doing volunteer work for about seven years but -- and always in the community for a really long time, but this work with Project SILK has only been for three years. And in these three years, I have heard, seen, some crazy stuff, and it really doesn’t change the way you see people. But once I get to that point where I’m like -- I’m starting to see -- feel myself fall back into like bigotry or fall back into like a space of hatred, I’m like, I need to train, I need to train, I need to read, I need to educate myself. I need to get back into this place because -- and I need to like have healthy, healthy conversations with a therapist. I need to do self-care. Because that’s when I know that, one, I’m tried, and it’s -- I’m exhausted, right? And that’s what I think is happening with a lot of police officers is that their exposure to violence is insane, it’s insane, you know? In my place as a social worker, my exposure to violence is pretty intense, but I’m getting folks either prior to events or after something very terrible has happened. Because I also do like sex trafficking work with the shelter as well, and I do trainings on that with our agency. And some of the stories I’ve heard from these young folks is devastating stuff. But again, I’m only hearing it. Just imagine being the police officer seeing and reacting and doing the -- that physical brunt work in order to take care of a person. And they’re constantly being shown this stuff and so their place of bigotry and hatred if it already isn’t there. Because a lot of police officers go into this work either thinking I’m going to do the best, I’m going to be a public server, I’m going to do a great job. Some police officers, and it’s very, very rare but some do go into this work being like, I’m racist and I want to continue to raise Havoc in my area. I have upset, like mental health issues, whatever the case maybe, I want to be a terror right? Chloe Coles-Wilson ; Liz Bradbury ; Police Officers ; Project SILK 0 4173 Allentown Policing LB: Well, it’s certainly true that -- I mean I think that it -- for police officers in Allentown, most of them do not live in the city. They believe that they -- their experience is that every single person they come in contact with is either a person who has done something bad, they believe that, or because it so frequently is, or a victim of somebody who has done something bad. That there is no in between. There’s no activists and people planting gardens and folks that are playing with their kids, and there’s just nobody that isn’t a perpetrator for them because everybody they deal with is a perpetrator. And that’s one of the problems with the way police are that they -- that they’re totally reactive. So they only are there to react to some emergency situation, which is often a very negative thing. And they never have experiences working with people in the community to -- let’s build a, I don’t know, a garden shelter in the park. They never do that. They never say, “Well, we’re here today to be at this big barbecue for the community, to just hang out with you to see what you think is going on in the community.” We never do that. And so as a consequence, their constant experiences with people who they either think may have done something bad or who have really done something bad. And then they have this terrible, terrible attitude about the city because they never see anything positive in the city. They just never see anything positive any place in the whole -- anywhere at Lehigh Valley. A lot of them live way up in the Poconos, and they’re afraid, they’re afraid to live in the city. I’ve actually had them say, “I’m afraid to live in the city because my family would be terrorized,” and there’s actually no statistical evidence to that at all. I mean there’s lots of older police officers that have lived in the city for years and years and years, and they manage softball teams for kids and they do all sorts of stuff and they... I know some of these guys. And they don’t think everything is bad because they live here, and they know that there is an organization like Project SILK that’s having youth programs in the park, hanging out. They’re just doing it, so... But they’re conditioned to be constantly suspicious of everything because they never have an experience that is anything other -- in fact, they never get out of their cars or off their bicycles. Even the bicycle cops don’t get off their bicycles. 
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 ; Allentown ; Allentown Police ; Lehigh Valley ; Liz Bradbury ; Poconos ; Project SILK 0 4487 Solutions to Police Brutality CCW: It’s continuous. So police officers should be going to a racial equity training yearly. They should be attending these things. These things are important and vital for the education of self. And I think everyone should consider those things. I read up, and I read up and I’m constantly paying attention to human rights campaign, them, any LGBTQ+ resource area. I’ll have scheduled time to be like, all right, I need to make sure I’m caught up with language of the times. I’ll talk to my youth, “Are there new -- are there anything new that I should know? Is there information I should know? Is there culture pieces that I should know, so I am aware and I am not hurting you?” If you are a public servant or you are a person that’s working with social services, you need to do that work consistently. 
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 ; LB: Right, right, right. That’s really true. Well, we’re just about to the end of this. So imagine that somebody is looking back at this from 30 years hence, and it could be you because you’ll still be around. I won’t be but you will be. So you looking back, people are looking back at this way in the future, and you’re going to give them a message about what’s going on now, maybe a message of hope and a message of awareness that you could pass on to them, what would you say? What’s sort of a thing that you would say about that? Chloe Coles-Wilson ; LGBTQ+ ; Liz Bradbury ; Police Officers 0 4607 Training and Workshops CCW: Exactly. That’s something that I’ve been really pushing with my supervisor is that our staff needs consistent, constant workshop, training, workshop, training. Training is a little bit more official because they’re learning a new skill. Workshop is where you practice, have some conversation, it’s a little bit more lighter, right? I guess I would just tell people who are peering into the future is I hope people are still reading. I hope people are still educating themselves and really spending that time. Because ego trips are serious, and I feel like a lot of times when you think you are so woke and so educated, you tend to completely breeze by education. You completely breeze by things that you should know, and you become ignorant very quickly. So I’m always ready and always open, and I hope the same for people in the future too. 
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 ; LB: Oh, that’s a great thing to say. Thank you so much for saying that and for doing this interview. And I’m so glad that we got a chance to talk, and it’s been really helpful. And I hope you stay safe and your partner stays safe who has to be an essential worker, which I do understand that that term is -- actually means for many people, you have to work, but we don’t have to pay you a lot of money. And you don’t -- Chloe Coles-Wilson ; Liz Bradbury ; Training ; Workshops 0 4746 Counseling Work CCW: There’s going to be a few things that we’re going to work out. The therapist is like now she is becoming licensed, which I’m like, yay, proud for her. She just finished her licensure. Her first test -- I think she has a second test to take for some other level of licensing, but... So the counseling will work where it would be like short-term counseling. So we would say that the client would be able to see the -- I’m sorry. The client will be able to see the therapist for six to eight weeks and then we will review and see if -- that there needs to be any more further like treatment. And a lot of the focus would just be on the gender and sexuality stuff. She has a ton of training on LGBTQ+, Black and brown youth and how those intersections affect health. She is amazing, and she’s also getting a certification in geek therapy, which is like video game therapy. So that’s really, really, really cool. So that’s where we’re at now. We’re going to kind of keeping it short term just to get her flexible. She is only -- just to get her in a good place. She is only part time, so her caseload is probably going to be like maybe 15 to 20 youth, kind of the starts -- 
 ; Black ; Brown ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; LGBTQ+ ; Therapist ; Youth 0 4867 Turning People Away CCW: You can’t just turn people away because you’re uncomfortable, then you need to quit your job.
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 ; LB: That’s really true. When HAVEN first started over at -- in Bethlehem, they kept talking about -- the people at the church kept talking about it -- and we were involved at the beginning of it, kept talking about how they wanted to train people to... Because the youth were at risk and they kept talking about the high level of or the high instance of suicide and the high instance of self-harm. But then they would get these really problem kids, young people who would -- problem youth who would come to the thing. And they’d say, “Well, this person is too much of a problem, we can’t have him around here.” (laughs) Some of the people that I was working with said, “Okay, wait a minute, these are the kids that are the highest risk. You can’t tell them that they’re the ones that can’t come here.”
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 ; Bethlehem ; Chloe Coles-Wilson ; HAVEN ; Liz Bradbury ; Problem Youth 0 5040 Closing Remarks CCW: That culture is still continuing on and so they’re -- they have -- they’re a part of the house and they go to balls and they compete and they are professional voguers. So that was just such a unique piece to our team, and we’re really excited, so... 
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 ; LB: Cool, all right, I can see that, yeah, good. That sounds exciting. I think that’s an excellent thing. Well, good. Well, thank you again so much, and I really, really appreciate it, and it’s been great to talk to you. And I hope you have a great -- a nice rest of the evening and get a little chance to regulate your sleep patterns. Chloe Coles-Wilson ; Closing Statements ; Culture ; Liz Bradbury 0 MovingImage Chloe Coles-Wilson describes how the LGBTQIA+ youth coped with COVID-19, by talking about her experiences with activism. She talks about her experience working for Project SILK in the Lehigh Valley, and how her experience there has shaped her. She also addresses the racial inequalities going on in the US, and offers her opinion to the interviewer. Ultimately, she talks about her activism and how COVID-19 has affected the community. Chloe Coles-Wilson 2020-07-14 LIZ BRADBURY: -- a little problem. Okay. So there we go, and I'm going to turn the audio on too. Now, I'm going to read you these -- this piece -- this intro. Oh, turn off my phone. (laughs) I write that right on here, so I don't forget to do it. CHLOE COLE-WILSON: (laughs) LB: And I want to also pin -- oops -- pin you in this. Okay. It's good. Pin in the video, I got the audio, okay, it's good, and record it. So with this project, Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury, and I'm here with Chloe Cole- Wilson -- is that right -- to -- CCW: Right. LB: -- I suddenly blanked on it, I was like, wait, I just remember it now -- to talk to her about her experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of the COVID-19 pandemic as part of the Lehigh Valley's LGBT Community Archive. Oh, we're meeting on Zoom on July 14, 2020. So thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start, can you please state your full name and spell it for me? CCW: Do you want my middle name too? LB: Sure, why not. CCW: Okay. Chloe Amanda Cole-Wilson, C-H-L-O-E A-M-A-N-D-A C-O-L-E-W-I-L-S-O-N. LB: Good, okay. And will you please share your birthdate? CCW: March 20, 1992. LB: Okay. And you are in Allentown, is that right? We have to have the right town. CCW: I'm in Bethlehem. LB: In Bethlehem, okay. So this is the consent part. Do you consent to this interview today? CCW: Yes, I do. LB: Good. Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable formats? CCW: Yeah. LB: Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats including films, articles, websites, presentations, and other formats that we may not even know today? CCW: Okay. Sounds good. LB: Do you understand that you will have thirty days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview, to review your interview, identify any parts you'd like to delete and or withdraw from your -- from the project? CCW: Yes. LB: Okay? Yes. Okay. So this is just a little bit of identity stuff. What is your ZIP code, so we can have a demographic? CCW: 18018 LB: Okay, and what is your age? CCW: Twenty-eight. LB: And how do you identify within the LGBT community? So basic SOGIE stuff or whatever you want to say. You can say whatever you want in this. CCW: I identify as queer. LB: Okay. Oh, so here are some of these thing. And so I already sent these questions. And the concept of the archive, I like to think about it as that there will be people who will, hopefully, look at this many years in the future to see what it was like for people at this point in the COVID epidemic in the Lehigh Valley who are part of the core community to get sort of an idea. Because there have been other circumstances with pandemics and epidemics where we really didn't talk about people's personal experiences. You can say anything you want about this. I have some of those questions. You can answer those, or you can think about those. I'll ask those if you want, but you can say whatever you want. But let's start out with this, are you by yourself in your home or do you have other people there or what's the deal? CCW: It's myself and my partner and then we have three other roommates. LB: Oh, okay, okay. I know the answers to some of these things, but you could talk about this for the archives. Have you been working, has your employer closed or laid off, and why don't you talk about a little bit what you do? CCW: Yeah. So I am program coordinator for Project SILK Lehigh Valley, which is an LGBT drop-in center that focuses on Black and brown youth. So a lot of the work that I've been doing during this time is just planning, programming, and getting the Valley Youth House staff in a place where they feel comfortable providing services virtually while also responding to crisis. During this time, we did have a few youth that became homeless and so it was trying to respond to those needs as quickly as we possibly could with -- considering my safety, my staff's safety, and things like that, the youth safety, so yeah. LB: How did that work out? I mean I know you can't talk specifically about youth, but why don't you describe a little bit how that happened? And I think that's really important stuff. CCW: Mm-hmm. So a lot of what we did was six feet, we stayed six feet away, we were masked up. We supplied some hand sanitizer to our workers and things like that. But I was one of the only workers that was really out working with a youth who was identifying as like unsheltered and was living in what -- in Allentown, what people would call it as like tent city where folks -- where all the unsheltered folks kind of cohabitate together and exist. So a lot of it was just like dropping things off on the corner and being like, "Hey, these items are here. I will wait for you to pick up these items." And then, you know, sometimes because we are in partnership with a shelter as well, to give and provide HIV, STI testing but also provide sexual health counseling and things like that. In those moments, we were meeting outside on the porch six feet away. Now that restrictions have lessened, we've been doing some more contact work with our other sites. There's been some very interesting things that I've done to try to appease the youth and provide the service, you know? LB: Yeah, and stay safe at the same time and have every -- CCW: Yeah. Mm-hmm. LB: That's tricky stuff, so... And is that your main thing that you do? So that's pretty much the main thing you do that you're setting up those kinds of things. So right now, those are the things that you're working on, and there is virtual programming that's going out to people? CCW: Mm-hmm. Actually starting tomorrow, we're going back into some more in-person services. Monday -- no, I'm sorry, Wednesdays and Fridays, we're going to do like luncheon/snack services. So from one to three, we'll meet with the youth at Arts Park because it gives us the ability to have the space to social distance. We'll take temperatures, we'll ask COVID-19 questions, do quick screenings, and then they are able to be in this drop-in space. Now, if they want to schedule testing, they can, but it can only be one appointment at a time. So that's where we're at with our protocols and things like that. LB: That's a great place too. So Art Park like right in front of the art museum in that big, grassy area? CCW: Mm-hmm. LB: A little place for croquet. (laughs) CCW: Yeah. What happened? Oh, for -- LB: [That we?] frequent for croquet -- CCW: Oh, yeah. (laughs) LB: -- or lawn bowling then. CCW: Listen, we're trying to think of some activities, so that might be on my list to be like, "Look, let's play croquet." LB: Lawn bowling would be really good. I think we should have a lawn bowling team there actually someday when we can finally be around in a circumstance like that. But that's a great place because it's got tables and -- you know? CCW: Mm-hmm. LB: They're right there. You don't have to schlep a lot of stuff over there. It's great. It looks -- CCW: And it's like a central place, so kids coming from all over the city will be able to just kind of know where it is, access where it is, and it kind of works. And also too, we might be able to interact with new youth there because there has been a lot of youth out because of the protesting, the Black Lives Matter protests that are happening right now, which is -- it's so crazy because that's on the other end of the work that I do. I also have an arts organization called Basement Poetry. And we've been doing some activism and advocacy around just like so many things, police brutality, inclusive shelters that will allow trans and gender nonbinary folks to identify in the identity that is theirs. Because if they cannot, it is a health risk. So that's been something that we've been really talking a lot about with these other organizations that are Black and brown ran. It's how to have inclusive spaces. Talking with city council about this. When we're defending the police like when this funding starts trickling down, making sure these organizations are anti-racist, making sure these organizations are anti-oppressive. That's another piece of this too. But what's interesting is the area like... Because the kids are so like, "I don't know what's going on, I don't know what to do with myself," so they've been out. They've just been out hanging out. So I'm hoping that we can foster a space for youth that are just like migrating and hanging out. A place for them to be a little bit that's a little bit more supervised, that's safe, that gives them access to services. Because it's been very interesting how like all the protests have rolled out and just youths, kind of, just hanging out in the city. LB: Yeah. Don't forget that when you're at the Art Park that that giant bronze horse that's at the -- across [from the art school?] was designed by Leonardo da Vinci who was gay. CCW: Oh, wow. That's awesome. I would love to share that with our kids. LB: Well, Leonardo never made that horse, but other people have taken the designs that he made it and then they recreated it in a couple of different places, and that's one of the places where it is. His design was much bigger than that, but it's pretty, and it's Leonardo, a genius who was gay, so, one of our ancestors. So for you personally in terms of communicating with people in your family or other -- of friends that you may not be able to be near with regard to social distancing and stuff, have you been using a lot of electronic conversations? Like where have you -- CCW: Oh yeah. It's like Zoom, I -- even just today for work, I was on nothing but Zoom calls. Instagram Live is like our outreach pool, so we can say, "Hey, this is what we're doing." But with friends and family, I'm always on the phone, I'm always texting. It's been really hard. I will say there were moments during this whole continuing on in this pandemic where I'm like, "I need to see my mom, I'm going to go see my mom, I don't care, I'm seeing her, I don't care, I just -- I can't," you know? LB: Yeah. CCW: It was really difficult not being able to have these interactions with my friends. And it's so funny because my friend [Will?] who is also gay, we were talking about how even the internet, like the way he interacts with guys and men, it's crazy, you know what I mean? He's single, so I'm always talking about safety because I'm like, "Well, you know, your friend is a healthcare provider, so I'm just going to just let you know like no kissing and remember washing your hands after the stuff." But he was even saying that online, it's insane that people are still meeting up, you know? LB: Yeah. CCW: So I felt less guilty to see my mom after I heard about that, so... (laughs) LB: Yeah, and you be careful and you can -- you know? You know what your level of danger is, and I'm sure she does too. But, yeah, I was just talking to somebody else about that some people are really not being careful in terms of hooking up with apps and stuff. And it's -- CCW: Oh, not at all -- LB: -- other people would say -- in fact, I was just talking to Ariel and he was saying, "It's the hi, bye kind of thing, hi, bye, but this is just going to be bye." (laughter) Because (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible). He just coined that. He said that "It's not going to be -- it's not going to be hi if there's no carefulness in here." So let me see. We did that. We've got a lot of stuff going on and -- but let's talk about what your biggest concerns are during the pandemic and concerns for the Lehigh -- for -- in the LGBT community, of the Lehigh Valley. And I do want to have a whole section where I want you to talk about Black Lives Matter, but if you want to talk about that during this part of the conversation, that's fine, go ahead and do that too. So -- CCW: Okay, cool. LB: -- [you're?] -- CCW: I guess one of my biggest concerns is shelter, right? I think that when... I have a very special relationship with one of our clients. When I had discovered that they were struggling in this way and had no place to go, I'm like, all right, so I'm going to go, and I'm going to hunt down all of my resources, so I'm pulling out all the resource guides, pulling out all the books that I've created and put together, all the protocol. And I'm looking at them and I'm like, There's nothing that will work for this young person. And this young person is not under the age of 18, so it's not like I can call Valley Youth House shelter. This young person is identifying as nonbinary, so it's like putting them in a shelter can be so difficult. And Salvation Army and all of these other shelters are very religious, and there is follow your faith and do what is best in your practice and in your meeting and -- you know what I mean? That's what nonprofits are, right? Like a lot of people start nonprofits from their hearts, right? LB: Mm-hmm. CCW: But there is this moment where it's like when will you start to follow and understand your populations and understand the people that are in your community? And so places like the Rescue Mission, I would never send kids there. It's like the most unsafe place for LGBTQ+ youth or LGBTQ- people in general. Because it's a men's shelter, but at the same time if you have any type of like, say, moment, hand gesture, gender expression that is not masculine, you are ostracized and treated a certain way in that space. So that's my biggest concern is sheltering and especially sheltering for trans and gender nonconforming folks. Now turning point, they're really open and have been really working on being gender inclusive, but the pieces. It's like you -- there has to be DV in your case. So if there's no domestic violence in your case, then there's no space at their shelter because that's their focus. So that's one of my concerns. Another one of my concerns has always been the way things have been kind of given us. Like the messages have been given coming down like news and how youth process it. Because as COVID started, I remember we have two peer navigators [Xander?] and [Michelle?], and I just remember them just completely shutting down. This is senior year for them, so this is a very important year of their life, and they're excited for everything that we're going to do at the center, they're going to do in their school life. And I just remember them just like mentally gone, shut down when they figured out school was going to be closed because of COVID. LB: So they were -- CCW: And it's like -- LB: -- high school seniors or college seniors? CCW: High school seniors. It was so immensely frustrating with how everything -- the information was coming down and how everything was handled. Everything was very like just put together, which I get. We've never been... Our folk, I would at least say the generations like Millennials and Gen Z's have never been through something like this. So you have half of the population that's never been through a crisis and the other half who has experience with this kind of things. It's just such a cluster of all of these mixed experiences, anyways. But with the schools, like the Allentown School District weren't getting the things that they need right away. There was a moment where the kids didn't even go to school for like -- or have any formal education for three and a half weeks, almost a month until April. In the midst of April, they were able to get like Wi-Fi to youth, hotspots to youth, and technology to youth, and that was another concern of mine too. So, again, it was just like that just misinformed and then explaining to the youth that this happens sometimes. But when it consistently happens, they're like, "What is going on?" and so then they're in crisis, right, and they're freaking out like, "What's going on? I need answers," you know what I mean, so... LB: Yeah. Young people really look to older people to fix things and explain things to them, and we have no answers on this. I mean I'm sixty-three years old, and there's nothing in my life experience that compares to this. I can say that I know somebody who is one hundred four years old who's been in the center by the way, who was alive during the flu epidemic of 1918. And that's the only other thing that's comparable to this one because [we?] had the flu. Because even if you look at HIV/AIDS, which was a very different thing, it wasn't like everybody had it, and it was really hard to get it. I mean, you can't just get AIDS. You have to have sex with people and be involved with people. That's not the same situation. On the other hand right now, every single -- this is a hopeful thing that you can say to youth is that every single scientist in the world that knows about this kind of stuff is working on this issue, which wasn't true for AIDS. Nobody did anything about that for years -- CCW: For -- yeah. LB: -- and years and people just died, all over the place. Really, it sounds like such a tricky thing when you have young people who want these answers, and they're not going to really put up with you saying, I don't know. CCW: Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean? I feel like all of my youth that I work with, I've known them for a very long time since Project SILK started. And so they are built with the same tenacity that I have and the same questioning of authority, questioning of the system, the same activist spirit. So I kind of set myself up to have these awesome kids that will advocate for themselves, but then in these situations I'm like, Why did I do this? (laughs) It's been very complex. And even for my team, it's been very hard to figure out how to have these conversations without having the meltdown. But luckily, we're going to be starting some therapy services in August, so I think that's going to really help with some of these, like this processing of all the things that are happening. And including the trauma that we are constantly exposed to with the Black Lives Matter, the police brutality but not just Black Lives Matter but like police brutality and systematic racism and microaggressions and all of these experiences that they're having. They're also processing that too at the same time that they're processing a pandemic, and we're in this in this civil unrest, and it's like -- it's a lot. They're going through a lot right now. And then also, they're seeing the systems start to crumble in front of them. So it's like they were aware before that things weren't good. But then when you're not getting educated and your peers in the Whitehall School District or Parkland Area School District and Bethlehem Area School District are all on the computers doing their homework while you're just waiting, it really does go to show you the barriers and how the system fails. And so many youth were responding to that like, "What do I do, what --? How do I respond to this?" And it's just like email, email congress, email your local reps, make sure people know and are on top of what's happening in your school. LB: Right, right, right. Register to vote because some of them will be old enough too, so, you know? CCW: Mm-hmm. Our kids right now are aging out -- not aging out, but they're coming out of that phase where they're in the drop-in center all the time. So the kids that are in the drop-in center all the time between the ages of like 14 to 17. And then once they graduate high school, they're really focused on their life and themselves and getting things together. So a lot of times, they're not spending a lot of time there. So we have a lot of older youth there, so I'm always encouraging them to vote and be a part of and know your local government because that is where you have a lot of power and say in what happens here. LB: Whenever I used to talk to running a voter's -- an LGBT voter's organization -- it's called [PAL?], and we did that for many, many years -- one of the things we talk to people about is being a super voter. And a super voter is a person who votes in every election in the primary for four years in a row. And whether or not you vote is a matter of public record. So any person can get a list that shows whether or not you voted this in the primary and then that stuff, in the main election every year for years and years. And when you write a letter or you write an email or you write a card to your state representative, they look up to see whether you vote. That's why they pay more attention to old people than they do to young people because older people vote -- are more likely to vote. So when they look at your super voter status or they'll look to see and if you're a super voter, they'll listen to you. And if you're not a voter, you're not even registered, they figure, oh, you're not going to vote for me anyway, who cares? And they really do that, and it's a shame, but it's true. And that's the whole thing about the voice of voting because in the Obama elections, youth, college students and 18-year-olds put him in office. That's the swing vote. That is the swing vote. And during the Obama election, Adrian organized -- sent hundreds of kids to go and vote at the voter's places. And he was there at Muhlenberg College, and after he left, they stopped doing that. So like hundreds and hundreds of people were voting and then all of a sudden, they weren't. And one of the things about us being in Pennsylvania is it's a swing state. It really matters in Pennsylvania as opposed to like -- New York is always pretty liberal and New Jersey is pretty liberal, and people tend not to. It's not so close, but it's very close here. So that's great that they're doing that, good for them. Have you been talking to any of the youth and also for yourself stuff about Dr. Rachel Levine being our secretary of health, and she's the one that's been there in the health. And now what do you -- have you had a chance to see her and talk to youth about her? CCW: Yeah. A lot of youths are very upset with the way she's treated. I think that that for our trans youth, like that has been the most difficult part of all of this is... Before the Black Lives Matter movement was like -- had this visceral showing up, we were really trying to manage conversations around transphobia. And every time because we're seeing Rachel Levine, at one point we were seeing her almost every single day, which is beautiful. With style and grace, style and grace, she would like -- was amazing onstage and was amazing with giving us the information we needed, was very clear and concise, and was about to give us information that wasn't too doctor-y, too wordy, or too -- or filled with things that didn't matter to us, right? LB: Yeah. CCW: And it's like even through that, even through all of that beauty and poise and intelligence, it's like people were still just questioning her gender consistently. And I think for our clients, it was more so like, "Well, can that -- will that happen to me if I decide to do something like that? Am I possible?" Those are conversations, and we really worked with her and [Goodwin?]. We had a group, a trans health group that was really powerful, and we talked a lot about -- they talked a lot about passing and things like that. And how that is maybe important for your transition but also it's not important for the social world. Like you don't need to set up for hyper masculine or hyper feminine identities or these belief systems or these systems, like you don't need to do that, right? And so, I don't know. Some interesting conversations happened, and sometimes it would happen sporadically with our young people, so... LB: It's really true that sometimes in circumstances like that, for trans people who are transitioning and they have a certain idea of what that means, it can become hyper binary that they... You know I can't ride a motorcycle because it won't be feminine enough, and it's really limited I think for a lot of people. Yeah, Rachel Levine is amazing, and one of the great things about her is she has an extraordinarily thick skin. She'll actually say I don't care what people say to me. It's pretty brave. I don't think everybody should feel that they have to be that way, but she's the secretary of health and so, you know? CCW: Yeah. LB: She -- CCW: And then on top of that, you're also giving COVID-19 health regulations that people are uncomfortable with managing. And she's giving news that is not the greatest on top of being a fierce trans leader. So it's like -- you know what I mean? Already she was going to get pushback, you know? LB: Mm-hmm. CCW: So yeah. LB: It's tough when you're telling people things they don't want to hear, but that's the thing. CCW: And you're in... You are representing an identity that people don't want to embrace. Like I know for a while even myself when I was in chats, in conversations with my -- just like my family, we always have that conversation of "Why are you asking whether or not what her gender is? Like this is bad. It's not the conversation we need to be having. She is giving us the most important health information day to day, and we need to listen to that. That has nothing to do with anything." I think it's a culture shock for Pennsylvania because I feel like sometimes we dress up. Especially in the Lehigh Valley, we dress up like we're -- oh my God, we're so progressive, yay, but we're really not. We're really behind on a lot of things. I always say to people, I'm like, "We're always about ten -- five to ten years behind because like --" LB: Behind what? CCW: Just behind like -- LB: New York? CCW: Yeah, behind really progressive spaces, you know what I mean like New York City and... I think of Philly as like progressive, but then again, there have been -- I've had moments there where I'm like, wow, this is pretty conservative in parts of Philly. So the interesting part is that we -- in Pennsylvania, we have these really small pockets of what we would consider safe places for all people and very small pockets. And then outside of that, it's just like a ring of hate. You know what I mean? And you drive out ten minutes and then boom, confederate flag and -- LB: It's the suburbs, I know it's terrible. Terrible. You're absolutely right. CCW: It's like crazy. LB: I know. I grew up in a suburb of New York City, and it was so conservative there. It was ridiculously conservative there. My parents were the only people who were democrats, and it doesn't even mean that that's radically... They were the only democrats that we knew in the entire town in the suburb. And now, it's really one of the most progressive areas of the United States and Connecticut. So it's an interesting thing to see, I guess. But that does happen in the suburbs, and it's a shame, and we shouldn't let them get away with it. There's no question of it. I'd love to live in the city where it's not like that per se, per se. I mean there are still issues, you know. CCW: Oh, for sure, for sure, for sure. It's been very interesting. It's been very interesting to see the hate because you -- like because I work... My life is working like LGBTQ+ folks, the marginalized people, I'm always in spaces -- not always, let me take that back. I'm mostly in spaces where I'm accepted genuinely pretty much. I'll deal with microaggressions, and I'll deal with moments of racism and things like that, which I'm not negating, but for the most part, I'm not like in fear of my life, right? But -- what was I going to say. But, yeah, but like I know that, and I'm now aware that this space is not safe all the time. And when I was starting to see those messages and the way -- and the comments about Rachel Levine and her appearance and the way she was presenting or whatever the case maybe and just like the little, snarky things that they would say about her, I'm like, holy crap, we are really behind. And I would have never thought that, but then again, I have to remind myself, I'm in certain spaces because of my work life. I have a girlfriend and our family's very accepting. We have a language barrier. They speak Spanish, so there's always like a cultural catcher, but other than that, my family's very loving. There's a lot of education around nonbinary and trans folk. And I'm always doing that work with them every day, and they're always very accepting and loving. But like I forget, I forget, I really do. LB: Yeah. It's amazing though because you could be talking to people who you just think are wonderful. My dad was a major -- I mean he worked with Martin Luther King, and he edited his books, and he was really, really involved with him when he was in New York City and stuff. And he was talking about all this, and he didn't... I knew that he did these things, and he was very, very positive, and he had gay friends and he -- and stuff. And then all of a sudden, he -- I was saying... We lived in Connecticut, and I said, "So that place where we lived, where we went swimming, was that a restricted place?" and he goes, "Yeah, of course." I'm like, "Wha-- why would you do that?" And then he's telling me about this club for writers and editors and stuff that he belonged to in New York City -- it was called the Coffee House -- where people in literature were members of this club. It was only for men, and I said, "Well, yeah, because there's no women writers. I mean --" CCW: Right, because they totally don't like this. LB: "How could you do that?" He goes, "Well, they had good soup," you know? So there's that constant vigilance that you'd have. And you think that things are getting better and then all of a sudden, it rolls back. And part of it comes from -- you know? And we can't just blame this, but part of it comes from the current administration, which has sort of opened the floodgates of that, but it's not like that's the only thing. I mean it's not like it hasn't -- there isn't -- this stuff hasn't always been there. I think that's -- CCW: Right. I don't know. I feel like... And now as I'm thinking of the Black Lives Matter movement, I feel like the current administration definitely has tapped some souls and some wounds on some people and had opened up this space of like, Well now, I don't have to be silent about my bigotry, but it's expressive, it's beautiful that they don't have to be silent anymore. It's very strange to see. It's very strange to see this. It's very weird how folks who are very supportive of Trump and who are racists will open up and be like, "Oh, I feel safer now. Now that he's in office, I can say what I want to say, and all lives matter," and so then -- you know what I mean? Like, ah, I don't know. But I will say that like I... It's something I've learned in this -- in the very short amount of time that I've done a lot -- the activism that I've done. In the last five years, I've just learned that racists are in a different place, and they will come down when they are ready. They will work on their stuff when they are ready, and being triggered by them will do nothing for you. And so that's something I've really been working a lot on especially with our youth. Like you're going to see racist things. George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Nina Pop, Tony McDade, these are all racist acts of state sanctioned violence or police brutality, right? You're going to see these things. This is the unfortunate and sad world that we are in. But we have to turn our rage into something else, right, because we will -- we'll self-destruct. And that was something I took a lot -- it took me a really long time to really work on. Because I'm just like any time that I experience a microaggression or any racism, I would get so hot and so angry. And I would be in this place of just kind of thinking about it and letting it churn in my head for weeks and weeks and months on end and then I'm recognizing that like I haven't, one, done anything about it, and, two, I'm making myself sick. So it's been something that I've been really working actively on is not even responding to the racist comments on Morning Call, the racist comments that are seen on WFMC, especially when -- as we're talking about the movement and as we're processing the things that are happening around us. Because also, too, racists are going through -- and not that I'm giving them any empathy at all whatsoever, but racists are going through a huge change in their whole life. Everything is changing around them. The Redskins have dropped their name and logo, so that's -- for a lot of people who are committed to that team, that's hard, you know what I mean? And I'm, whatever, this is what you're processing. I'm processing death and safety ; you're processing a logo. That's cool. That's fine. LB: Yeah, death and safety (laughs) versus a logo. CCW: Yeah, you know what I mean? Just like -- LB: I could not -- you don't even play it, you just watch it on TV or -- yeah, death and -- CCW: Exactly, so -- LB: -- [safety, or?]. CCW: -- I don't know. It's very interesting to watch racist folks just kind of implode and like -- and white America too in general to just implode and be like, holy crap, I have to do all this work now. I have to process my identity, I have to process myself, I have to really watch my microaggressions, I have to do all this. It's been really intense for everyone. It's been a lot for everyone. I don't have much empathy for that, but I will say that like I think we have to put into consideration as we're doing this work that everyone is at a different place. And so that's really been healing for me because I've been -- I get really wrapped up in what people say. I get really wrapped up in it sometimes and so I'm like, no, no, no, no, I've got to let it go. Morning Call is going to be racist comments because it's been -- we're in Pennsylvania, so... (laughs) LB: People are commenting on that from Poland, I mean, you know, and people can comment from anywhere on that. Comments are completely not news, and they're just there to rile people up. CCW: Right. And say things that don't even like -- LB: [They're talking?]. CCW: -- just something intense like -- LB: (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) that by the time you get to the seventh comment, the person is completely off the thread of the whole story anyway. They're talking about -- you know? The thing is about putting fluoride in the water, and by the seventh comment, they're blaming Obama, and by (laughs) the tenth comment, it's about Israel. It's just -- CCW: Right. And then -- LB: -- this has nothing to do with reality. CCW: And then they toss in this six hundred dollars a week unemployment. Like -- LB: Yes, exactly. CCW: -- and how everyone was getting -- LB: -- in fact you know -- CCW: -- that was my debate the other day. (laughs) LB: Yeah. You know in the trainings I do -- there are a lot of philosophies about training where they try to do all of this empathy stuff and they talk about... And I really don't do that because of exactly what you're talking about. You can't change people from being racist by giving them an empathy training. So what I do is I tell them, "Stop saying this stuff, just cut it out." And at the end of the training and I say, "These are the words you should use because this is LGBT stuff, so these are the words you'd use. This will create a barrier, you won't be able to do your job, understand that this is what people are thinking when you say these things so say this, do this, don't say that love the sinner and hate the sin." And then we get to the end of the thing, and I say, "And don't think is way too much for you to learn." Because that's always what they say, "Oh, it's so much." I say like, "Come on, you went to college, this took an hour. You can learn this stuff. It's not that hard. For heaven's sakes, you take trainings all the time. And it's less than programming your phone. So just remember these words and --" CCW: Yes. LB: "-- stop just thinking that it's hard to do this because it's change." And I think that's a very good point that you're making and it's a... And it does drive you crazy, and you have to stop ha-- I don't have any empathy for racists even though when people would say things like, "Well, you know it's hard and they..." I can't, I can't and maybe it's because I'm older but I just -- like there is just... There's a very important saying that hit me very hard years ago and it was you cannot make compromises with people who don't think that everybody should -- that minority people and disenfranchised people should have equal rights because they would deny us oxygen if they could. So ask -- expect every equality, expect total equity because if you say, "Well, we'll take this half nod from you," they don't even want to give us oxygen, come on, you know? They be -- yeah. CCW: Right, okay, okay. LB: I don't think it's... When you're talking about the people in the comments section, they'll never going to be able to... They're not there to learn let's put it that way. CCW: Yeah, they're not, they're definitely not, they're definitely not. They're there to troll. It's always like an ego test. Like who's smarter in this debate, you know what I mean? And it's just so -- I don't know, anyways. But, oh, you know? And even our local news has just been so just like really messy in the way they've been reporting and journaling some of these protests and the way they've even been just journaling about COVID-19. And that's like another concern of mine. It's like we already have very scarce information because the WHO and the CDC, who most people are not believing because conspiracy theorists have taken over the world, right? (laughs) People that I thought would never fall into conspiracy theories are loving them now because we've never experienced anything like this, you know what I mean? The fact that we use quarantine in common language is mind-blowing to me, so... So we have the CDC and the WHO that are still really working aggressively and hard on trying to figure out things. And as science works, finding out the smallest thing is huge for scientists, but for us, finding out that like COVID-19 is now on surfaces is so miniscule, but it took them so much time to get to that, you know what I mean? And so many hours and thought process and chemical and whatever they needed to do to get to that hypothesis that this is what it is, to get to that answer, and to get to us. So already we're dealing with that and kind of like following science as we are going through this and then you have the Morning Call and WMFC with their very, very strange and vague things. Like COVID-19 Could Kill You would be like the headline, and everyone is like, oh my God, no, it's going to kill us. But then when you click on it, it's like could kill you if you don't wear a mask and wash your hands. (laughs) LB: Yeah. And well, the [second page?], you know and it was -- oh it was horrible. I remember -- well, I could tell you a million stories about this but -- and it's all the same gig. It's all the same thing where people are latching on to that kind of urban myth stuff and talking about that as real. And well, you know, that wearing a mask could kill you kind of thing. I was just talking to somebody and how that's just -- it's like an urban -- it's like one of those stories that, well, I have a friend whose brother's name is John, and this happened to him, you know? CCW: Mm-hmm. LB: A camp story, you know, (laughs) so anyway. So in terms of your everyday life, and there's a question on here that's sort of a list of questions. It says has it affected your life? And it's kind of ridiculous because it's affected every single minute of everybody's life even if you -- CCW: Oh, yeah. LB: -- say it hasn't, it has. Have you noticed anything that is just glaringly different for you? CCW: Oh, I feel like my sleep cycle, sleep has changed immensely. So I already was a night owl, so two o'clock was the cap. That was like I'm up too late, I'm going to go to sleep. But when COVID started and because I was working at home, and all I had to do was like wake up, put on a T-shirt, make sure -- put on my pajama pants, make sure I look somewhat decent, and I'm ready to go, I had all the time in the world. I didn't have a 30-minute commute. I like to say 30 minutes because I like to take my time driving and listening to music and stuff. But I have a 30-minute commute, and get ready in the morning will be another hour so that's an hour and a half that I've now saved. But I -- because of the anxiety of the pandemic and the anxiety of not knowing what's going to happen next, and as the pandemic went through and then now we're in this civil unrest -- at the end of May we're in the civil unrest, my sleep schedule is like whatever, you know what I mean? I'll wake up in six o'clock in the morning and then I'll start. I'll answer some emails, I'll casually do some filing, organize some things, get myself kind of prepared for the day and then I'll go back to sleep and then I'll wake up again. My sleep has been so off because we're -- I'm just so comfortable with being at home, and I get so stir-crazy. So that was one of the biggest changes. Now, my partner is an essential worker. Well, I don't even like using that term, but she has to go outside to work. And for her, she's -- everything is the same. If you were to ask her this question, she'd be like, "I don't think my life has changed much, I just miss my family" because she has older parents. Her mom is like forty-eight and her dad sixty-three. Well, her mom is not older ; it's her dad that's older. So they couldn't see each other, and he's already had cancer in his health history, and he has diabetes. So things are really like we cannot see them at all whatsoever. That's just a no go. We can't even take the risk, you know what I mean? So for her, that's the only thing that she would say, but other than that, all parts of her life is kind of like the same, you know? LB: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. CCW: But for me, it's just the sleep, and my schedule was so off. And even going to the grocery store was just like, it's hell on earth, you know what I mean -- LB: Has it -- CCW: -- because it's like -- LB: Have you been limiting that, or what's that like for you? Explain because you -- CCW: So -- LB: -- people are going to be watching this thirty years from now, so talk about what it's like to go to the grocery store. CCW: Well, grocery store shopping... So at first in start of the pandemic, I limited. As we started to get deeper into it, I realized that going shopping for two weeks of food wasn't realistic anymore. Because like I was either -- because I always shop a lot of fresh food or -- and then I'll get a bunch of frozen stuff. But I was just like this isn't working, you know? And next week, I don't really want this food, so, like I'm not interested in this meal. So I ended up shopping a little bit more. And because my partner is still going out and working and I'm at home, now I have to pack lunches and things like that. Because there was in the beginning that concern of do we eat out? Because there wasn't any regulation yet. But we were just like, you know what, let's just -- whatever. At this point, let's just try this. But even the experience at the grocery store, GIANT had and probably still has this, it's a voiceover and it's like, "Stay six feet away from everyone, and" blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, Is this like Black Mirror or --? Yeah, I don't know if you've ever seen that show before, but it felt so surreal because everyone is in their gloves and their masks just like walking around the grocery store, wiping things down. I've seen people do crazy things in the grocery store, wearing crazy things to stay protected, which I get. LB: Yeah. Well, people are scared. So are you scared about getting it? CCW: I think my biggest fear about getting it is -- oh. I feel like my biggest fear about getting it is it's just transferring it to older people in my life like my grandmother. So my grandmother is also sixty-three. She's spry, she's doing her thing, she doesn't have any serious health issues, and she's very, very, very, very health conscious and very -- and eats very well and cares about her diet, cares about her, all of that stuff, so... But that's my biggest fear with getting it. As for me getting it, I'm a young, healthy person, and from the statistics, young and healthy people usually live and survive and sometimes become asymptomatic. So that's something I was holding on to for a while. Because even when I was working with youth out on the ground, I had a scare where I was like, oh, snap, this youth is getting tested. So I had to quarantine until her results came in and that was really terrifying. But it was mostly terrifying because of the way like work set it up. They're like, "You can't do anything, none of this, no, no, no, no, no." And I'm just like, "Oh, okay," and it made COVID-19 really real for me. (laughs) LB: Yeah. Do you know anybody who's had it? CCW: Yes, I did, I did. Not any of like my close immediate friends, but a client's mother had it. So that for that client -- and that was another moment during this pandemic that was interesting was a lot of our clients because they're low-income folk, a lot of them who are... And especially if they're like fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, they're the caregivers in their home. So teaching a young person how to be a caregiver for a disease that we don't understand or a virus we don't understand was one of the -- one of my most challenging moments with this young person. Because it really was like -- you have books on how to take care of your younger siblings, you have all this education. But it's like how do you take care of your mother who's also -- has asthma, has COVID-19, and how do you, one, have her quarantine in your home when you have one bathroom? So it was like creating a whole new plan with this young person on how to keep the house healthy while also having them literally run the household. For that young person, it was so scary, it was so frightening, you know? It's like, holy crap, now I have to do all these things that I didn't think I had to do in these two weeks. Before I was doing it, but now, it's a little different because mom is like completely out of the picture, you know, what I mean because she has to self-quarantine, so -- yeah. LB: And then that whole thing of when people get super sick and they have to go in the hospital, and we can't see them, and you don't know what's going on and... Yeah. CCW: That too was like one of my -- if -- concerns about COVID too is like if my mom were to get sick, you know what I mean. My mom is -- I think she's turning fifty this year, so she'll be forty-nine. Well, she'll be forty-nine -- she'll be fifty ; she's forty-nine. If she got sick and I couldn't see her, I would be a mess. I would be a mess, and I would be a mess, I would be very upset and devastated especially if like she died and she died without even me knowing. Because I think like a lot of -- a lot about COVID-19 that has been very complex and difficult is the messaging between the providers and the patient's families. Because they're so focused on keeping themselves safe, keeping the hospital safe, keeping the people that are in the hospital safe, keeping all the patients safe, separating the non-COVID patients from the COVID patients. So this whole like I'm going to get back to this family about a death that just happened is maybe happening a little bit later in the day, you know what I mean? Even though it's a huge deal for the family, but for them, their list of worries is so large. You were constantly seeing that in the news too of like... And again, more conspiracy theory of these folks just struggling to get information to people but also struggling to take care of their patients because they're -- it was just so much. It's so much. And even now, one of my staff members was like, "I'm very afraid," and I was like, "What are you afraid of?" And I get what she's afraid of, but she's just like. "I'm afraid of the uptick and what is going to happen with the hospitals again because the hospitals were packed for so long." It's just such a general fear of like there'll not be enough of anything, so... LB: Well, what's the biggest frustration you're having from all of this stuff? I mean we're talking about a variety of things but... CCW: I think my biggest frustration is us in civil unrest during a pandemic. I think that is the hardest part of all of this is that. It's, oh, like you would think that with the... Because what I've noticed, at least, in my social circles is like everyone who is on unemployment, they're getting the extra six hundred dollars a week, so they're now making money. And I'm a professional, and I'm in a management position, you know what I mean, so you would think I get the big bucks at this point, but no, definitely not. But people are making more money than me, right? So there is this sense of happiness amongst the people of my life, you know what I mean, especially since like we -- like my families have been very poor and low income. So I've noticed that there have been a lot of folks who are low income just experience just kind of some happier moments, you know what I mean? Because there's more money and there's more funds and there's more things available. Who was that going on with this? What was the question again for -- LB: Oh, it's about the frustrations that you're having. You were talking of the money and stuff. CCW: Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So... Jesus, I forgot what I was going to say. Yes, so everyone's pretty content but at the same time, it's like -- LB: Well, you were -- CCW: -- you -- LB: -- talking about civil unrest. You were talking about -- CCW: Yes, yes, okay, there we go, sorry. But at the same time, you would think that like police brutality wasn't going to be happening during this time. You would think like the amount of Black transwomen who have died, six transwomen died in a week, that is absolutely ridiculous, you know what I mean? There has been just so much police brutality, trans violence, racism, systematic racism, and it's like it doesn't stop. And so I think that's the most frustrating because I'm watching my friends and then family finally get like a leg up. They get this extra money, people are saving, they've got the extra 1200. Some people kind of financially did pretty well during this whole thing and then it's like this violence continues on. But racism is going to continue, and that system is going to continue on, and it's like, damn, when are we going to catch a break, so... And I would get mostly frustrated with people pushing back about the protests and pushing back about why are people outside, and I get it, I get it. We're in a pandemic, but people need to move, people need to do this work. I've been really proud of a lot of activists who have been finding ways to get folks who cannot be out involved, and that has been really good, but it's -- you know. I think that's my biggest frustration is the civil unrest and how we're still dealing with these big crises on such a larger level? Because Tony McDade, Nina Pop, Breonna Taylor, and George Floyd, they happened almost in a couple of months, right? It's like the same time frame, so it's like, holy crap, that is insane. What is happening here? Yeah, that's my biggest frustration. LB: You know what I think about that though as? I think about that kind of horrible racist crime has been going on with that ferocity all along but that now, people are sa-- First of all, they have -- always have their cameras with them with their video, and so there's been so much more live video footage of this happening so that other people can't say, "Well, that's just not happening, it didn't really happen that way, these people shouldn't have been -- they caused what happened to them." And you say, "Look at this, that's not what happened, look, look at this." And the other thing is that I think people are fed up with it and so when it happens, they're making a public issue about it, which I don't think has happened as much in the last 20 years as it's doing now. And in part it is because people are... I mean people are speaking up about it more, which I think is very, very positive to me I mean for white people who are clueless and I have people... I know plenty of white people who are clueless and certainly some people in my family and other parts of my family who will just try to look for some kind of excuse for this kind of stuff, and they're seeing these videos, and they're saying -- I'm saying, "You can't look at this and say --" this is what happened in Allentown. "You cannot look at this and say this was all right. You have to stretch beyond any kind of credibility to say that this nine-minute video shows appropriate action by the police. It doesn't ; it just doesn't. And if you're saying that, you're lying because it just doesn't say that." I watched that video six times, and I wrote down every single thing that happened in it. And I saw -- I -- the police said that they had -- that the man had fallen down and they fell down with him. When you watch the video, you can see the police kicked his feet out from under him and pushed him to the ground. They lied in their public -- CCW: Right. LB: And I have to say that -- CCW: Even like just the comments on the spitting, he was vomiting, so of course, he's going to spit out whatever is in his mouth or maybe he's continuing to vomit, but it was very clear and apparent that he was vomiting. So it's like -- LB: He was sick. CCW: He was sick. LB: He's a sick guy, and he's praying. You know every -- there's just -- there's no excuse for this. And what's going to happen because I've seen this happen for 30 years is that the police, they're always going to excuse themselves. They're going to say their -- "Well, but yeah, but this has been --" and they're going to say that. And I think that it's going to be... Unless city council people band together and stand up against this, it's going to be awfully hard to get the police. The police will never admit they're at fault in my -- they just never will do that but -- so things have to change. I mean divestiture is really significant because they're just never going to admit the way the system is set up now, and it doesn't even matter who the police officers are. They're always -- CCW: Exactly. Because policing is a very toxic culture, you know what I mean? LB: Yes. CCW: And after a while, once you -- because even -- and even in the line of social work, I've seen some things, I've heard some awful, horrendous, terrible stories. And I've only been doing -- I've been doing volunteer work for about seven years but -- and always in the community for a really long time, but this work with Project SILK has only been for three years. And in these three years, I have heard, seen, some crazy stuff, and it really doesn't change the way you see people. But once I get to that point where I'm like -- I'm starting to see -- feel myself fall back into like bigotry or fall back into like a space of hatred, I'm like, I need to train, I need to train, I need to read, I need to educate myself. I need to get back into this place because -- and I need to like have healthy, healthy conversations with a therapist. I need to do self-care. Because that's when I know that, one, I'm tried, and it's -- I'm exhausted, right? And that's what I think is happening with a lot of police officers is that their exposure to violence is insane, it's insane, you know? In my place as a social worker, my exposure to violence is pretty intense, but I'm getting folks either prior to events or after something very terrible has happened. Because I also do like sex trafficking work with the shelter as well, and I do trainings on that with our agency. And some of the stories I've heard from these young folks is devastating stuff. But again, I'm only hearing it. Just imagine being the police officer seeing and reacting and doing the -- that physical brunt work in order to take care of a person. And they're constantly being shown this stuff and so their place of bigotry and hatred if it already isn't there. Because a lot of police officers go into this work either thinking I'm going to do the best, I'm going to be a public server, I'm going to do a great job. Some police officers, and it's very, very rare but some do go into this work being like, I'm racist and I want to continue to raise Havoc in my area. I have upset, like mental health issues, whatever the case maybe, I want to be a terror right? LB: Right. CCW: But you have these folks who go in here, and they're like, I'm going to do a great job. And they go in there and then their exposure to violence heightens and heightens and heightens and heightens, and nobody's managing it. No one is managing the sickness and the monster that is being created. Like, no one is managing that. So yes, so then you -- leading up to this moment of a man who when you watch the video, he is just sick. And there's no way that he -- his resistance is because he didn't need to be restrained. You can listen to like people -- there are -- people will do terrible things, right? We totally understand that. That was just a human condition, a human experience. But people for the most part, you can feel when they're genuine and they're genuinely hurt when you are healthy, when you are okay. And then for that police officer, he was not okay. Something else happened prior from that nine minutes that pissed him off and got him upset, something at home, something in the work field, the fact that he's not processing the trauma that he's constantly seeing on a daily basis. And so in that moment he was fed up. The police officer was fed up, so he responded in the way he did. If you're not thinking about holistic care for these people who are constantly exposed to trauma, then you're not doing -- you're not -- you're doing such a disservice. You're doing such a disservice to people. LB: Well, it's certainly true that -- I mean I think that it -- for police officers in Allentown, most of them do not live in the city. They believe that they -- their experience is that every single person they come in contact with is either a person who has done something bad, they believe that, or because it so frequently is, or a victim of somebody who has done something bad. That there is no in between. There's no activists and people planting gardens and folks that are playing with their kids, and there's just nobody that isn't a perpetrator for them because everybody they deal with is a perpetrator. And that's one of the problems with the way police are that they -- that they're totally reactive. So they only are there to react to some emergency situation, which is often a very negative thing. And they never have experiences working with people in the community to -- let's build a, I don't know, a garden shelter in the park. They never do that. They never say, "Well, we're here today to be at this big barbecue for the community, to just hang out with you to see what you think is going on in the community." We never do that. And so as a consequence, their constant experiences with people who they either think may have done something bad or who have really done something bad. And then they have this terrible, terrible attitude about the city because they never see anything positive in the city. They just never see anything positive any place in the whole -- anywhere at Lehigh Valley. A lot of them live way up in the Poconos, and they're afraid, they're afraid to live in the city. I've actually had them say, "I'm afraid to live in the city because my family would be terrorized," and there's actually no statistical evidence to that at all. I mean there's lots of older police officers that have lived in the city for years and years and years, and they manage softball teams for kids and they do all sorts of stuff and they... I know some of these guys. And they don't think everything is bad because they live here, and they know that there is an organization like Project SILK that's having youth programs in the park, hanging out. They're just doing it, so... But they're conditioned to be constantly suspicious of everything because they never have an experience that is anything other -- in fact, they never get out of their cars or off their bicycles. Even the bicycle cops don't get off their bicycles. CCW: Their bicycles, yeah, they do not. LB: Have you ever seen --? CCW: They do not. LB: You have never seen one of those cops off of his bicycle. It's like this thing that he's afraid to have an interaction with a person, so he's got that bike. It's like the car, he never gets out of the car, or if they do, they just stand there. Even the way those guys were standing there watching the guy who was sick so far away, they just watched him and watched him and watched him. It's an interesting thing. CCW: Yeah. And again, it just goes back to what you were saying too that like they're set up to react to violence, and that's it. That is something that I think that... As we are talking about defunding the police, as we're talking about abolishing the police and all of these things, that's something to also recognize is that when people fall into these systems, they are also going through immense emotional and intense changes. And not giving them any empathy for the shit that they've done. But this is -- you create monsters. You create a team of folks who are in this belief pattern with a certain set of skills, you know what I mean, and there's no continuous training. Something that I've been working on in our space, our Project SILK because we've had moments and struggled with all types of stuff with race and things like that. And I say all the time like, "This is stuff that you have to do consistently." I'm consistently training. And some people will be like, "Oh my God, oh, you're so smart, you're so -- look, oh yeah, you're on to -- you get it." But I'm like, "No, I don't. I also need to continue doing work like I'm still..." There has been programmed -- conscious and unconscious programming of sexism, homophobia, transphobia. All of these things have been into my body, right, so I need to find ways to make sure that they never come out and they are completely -- not never come out but they're gone, you know? LB: Right. CCW: It's continuous. So police officers should be going to a racial equity training yearly. They should be attending these things. These things are important and vital for the education of self. And I think everyone should consider those things. I read up, and I read up and I'm constantly paying attention to human rights campaign, them, any LGBTQ+ resource area. I'll have scheduled time to be like, all right, I need to make sure I'm caught up with language of the times. I'll talk to my youth, "Are there new -- are there anything new that I should know? Is there information I should know? Is there culture pieces that I should know, so I am aware and I am not hurting you?" If you are a public servant or you are a person that's working with social services, you need to do that work consistently. LB: Right, right, right. That's really true. Well, we're just about to the end of this. So imagine that somebody is looking back at this from 30 years hence, and it could be you because you'll still be around. I won't be but you will be. So you looking back, people are looking back at this way in the future, and you're going to give them a message about what's going on now, maybe a message of hope and a message of awareness that you could pass on to them, what would you say? What's sort of a thing that you would say about that? CCW: Oh, I don't know. I feel like I've just been -- LB: I think you've been -- CCW: (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) continue to educate yourself. I feel like -- LB: What you just said was very significant because when you're talking about -- you can't just say, okay, I know everything now, you know? CCW: Yeah. LB: You can't take a two-hour training and think okay, now, I'm -- CCW: Exactly. That's something that I've been really pushing with my supervisor is that our staff needs consistent, constant workshop, training, workshop, training. Training is a little bit more official because they're learning a new skill. Workshop is where you practice, have some conversation, it's a little bit more lighter, right? I guess I would just tell people who are peering into the future is I hope people are still reading. I hope people are still educating themselves and really spending that time. Because ego trips are serious, and I feel like a lot of times when you think you are so woke and so educated, you tend to completely breeze by education. You completely breeze by things that you should know, and you become ignorant very quickly. So I'm always ready and always open, and I hope the same for people in the future too. LB: Oh, that's a great thing to say. Thank you so much for saying that and for doing this interview. And I'm so glad that we got a chance to talk, and it's been really helpful. And I hope you stay safe and your partner stays safe who has to be an essential worker, which I do understand that that term is -- actually means for many people, you have to work, but we don't have to pay you a lot of money. And you don't -- CCW: Mm-hmm, yeah. LB: -- get a choice as to not wanting to work. I've talked to several people that have had that situation where it's, "I'm so essential, why am I not getting paid for --" CCW: Right, okay. LB: -- "why am I not being taken care of?" You know that is important. I hope that all of your family is safe and stuff like that. I'm glad to hear that there's going to be some counseling components for Project SILK, and how is that going to work? I need to know about that because I get loads and loads of [info, whine?] calls and often calls from people who are counselors that are trying to place youth, which I will immediately tell them about Project SILK. So how is that going to work, that counseling component? CCW: There's going to be a few things that we're going to work out. The therapist is like now she is becoming licensed, which I'm like, yay, proud for her. She just finished her licensure. Her first test -- I think she has a second test to take for some other level of licensing, but... So the counseling will work where it would be like short-term counseling. So we would say that the client would be able to see the -- I'm sorry. The client will be able to see the therapist for six to eight weeks and then we will review and see if -- that there needs to be any more further like treatment. And a lot of the focus would just be on the gender and sexuality stuff. She has a ton of training on LGBTQ+, Black and brown youth and how those intersections affect health. She is amazing, and she's also getting a certification in geek therapy, which is like video game therapy. So that's really, really, really cool. So that's where we're at now. We're going to kind of keeping it short term just to get her flexible. She is only -- just to get her in a good place. She is only part time, so her caseload is probably going to be like maybe 15 to 20 youth, kind of the starts -- LB: Great, wonderful, that's great. So -- CCW: Yeah, and we're really excited to bring that service. It's something that we had in the beginning and then our therapist in the beginning just needed a lot of work. And we needed to find someone that was going to work with the populations and not work with them. Because that's what was happening a lot, like just pushing away certain folk and I'm just like, no, these are priority populations, what are you doing? You know what I mean -- LB: [You're like -- yeah?]. CCW: You can't just turn people away because you're uncomfortable, then you need to quit your job. LB: That's really true. When HAVEN first started over at -- in Bethlehem, they kept talking about -- the people at the church kept talking about it -- and we were involved at the beginning of it, kept talking about how they wanted to train people to... Because the youth were at risk and they kept talking about the high level of or the high instance of suicide and the high instance of self-harm. But then they would get these really problem kids, young people who would -- problem youth who would come to the thing. And they'd say, "Well, this person is too much of a problem, we can't have him around here." (laughs) Some of the people that I was working with said, "Okay, wait a minute, these are the kids that are the highest risk. You can't tell them that they're the ones that can't come here." CCW: Exactly. LB: "Of course they're hard. That's the reason that they have to be supported. They're the hardest ones. They're the most at risk. If this was an easy circumstance for these young people and their life was an easy thing and easy for them to interact with --" (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) CCW: Our services would be nonexistent. LB: Right, right. Sure, everybody likes the A+, poindexter-y kid who is going to say -- do everything you say but when you have somebody who -- and they had kids who were really problems, and they said they can't come anymore. We actually worked with them and said, "You cannot do that. If you're saying that they can't be with the youth, then you have to get another two people who are facilitators to work with them one on one if they were too dangerous or whatever to be around the youth. But you can't turn them away. That's --" CCW: Yeah, you got -- LB: -- (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) CCW: -- to find a way to make it work. So that's why having this therapy of -- a therapy position is really going to be beautiful to our services. And then we're adding on two peer navigators. One is a part of the ballroom scene, and the other one has a really, really great connection with the community, so we're really excited to have them. And then we're going to be adding on another case manager, so it's going to be a crazy -- LB: That's terrific. CCW: -- set. (laughs) LB: That's great. CCW: I'm really happy that our services are expanding because they're just -- they're so needed. They're so needed. LB: Yeah. I'm not very hip to this but -- I mean that's probably an old-fashioned thing to say, but when you say part of the ballroom scene, what did you mean by that? CCW: Oh, so they're a part of the... I'm trying to figure out how to explain this, so... Like Paris is Burning. LB: Oh, oh, okay, okay. Yes, like that kind of -- CCW: That culture is still continuing on and so they're -- they have -- they're a part of the house and they go to balls and they compete and they are professional voguers. So that was just such a unique piece to our team, and we're really excited, so... LB: Cool, all right, I can see that, yeah, good. That sounds exciting. I think that's an excellent thing. Well, good. Well, thank you again so much, and I really, really appreciate it, and it's been great to talk to you. And I hope you have a great -- a nice rest of the evening and get a little chance to regulate your sleep patterns. CCW: Yeah. I need to work on that, so... (laughs) LB: (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) CCW: I hope you and your wife are doing well and your family is doing well during this pandemic. LB: Uh-huh, we're great, we're great. Well, thanks a lot. CCW: Thank you. LB: Bye-bye. CCW: Bye. END OF AUDIO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). 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01:24:56
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Chloe Cole-Wilson, July 14, 2020
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Chloe Coles-Wilson describes how the LGBTQIA+ youth coped with COVID-19, by talking about her experiences with activism. She talks about her experience working for Project SILK in the Lehigh Valley, and how her experience there has shaped her. She also addresses the racial inequalities going on in the US, and offers her opinion to the interviewer. Ultimately, she talks about her activism and how COVID-19 has affected the community.
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PH40_24
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COVID-19
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2020-07-14
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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78e898278eab0a2c3ab24f918654ec8f
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
An account of the resource
In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Liz Bradbury
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Marianne Cutler
OHMS Object
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Viewer)
https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_23.xml
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka
5.4 July 30, 2020 Marianne Cutler, July 30, 2020 PH40_23 01:49:47 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Marianne Cutler Liz Bradbury video/mpeg CutlerMarianne_20200730_video.mp4 1.0:|45(2)|70(13)|101(8)|138(7)|165(8)|184(9)|207(12)|228(5)|253(4)|286(3)|313(7)|340(11)|355(12)|378(12)|401(6)|426(12)|455(16)|476(14)|499(9)|526(8)|553(8)|578(10)|605(7)|628(10)|653(14)|676(4)|695(2)|720(3)|739(9)|758(3)|781(13)|798(14)|823(14)|850(3)|879(9)|906(15)|931(2)|954(6)|983(8)|1010(2)|1035(8)|1066(13)|1089(5)|1106(13)|1129(12)|1158(11)|1185(3)|1214(13)|1235(7)|1256(8)|1281(18)|1302(11)|1325(3)|1346(8)|1371(11)|1396(2)|1423(13)|1444(13)|1473(12)|1494(2)|1527(4)|1554(18)|1575(6)|1602(5)|1629(9)|1656(2)|1677(14)|1698(13)|1723(4)|1744(3)|1767(11)|1796(16)|1819(7)|1840(2)|1863(4)|1884(11)|1907(8)|1932(8)|1957(5)|1978(8)|1999(5)|2026(3)|2049(13)|2074(9)|2103(4)|2132(14)|2161(16)|2184(4)|2205(7)|2230(7)|2257(13)|2290(2)|2313(14)|2336(12)|2363(11)|2384(7)|2411(5)|2438(3)|2463(2)|2486(9)|2511(7)|2532(4)|2551(6)|2568(2)|2593(5)|2614(5)|2641(7)|2668(2)|2683(15)|2708(5) 0 https://youtu.be/CIjppMgCfFs YouTube video 0 Working Out Technical Issues LIZ BRADBURY: We even have a backup audio one in case the video doesn’t work for some reason. 
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 ; MARIANNE CUTLER: The little recorder icon has come on. 
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 ; LB: I can see that. Are you able to twist that a little bit so you don’t have so much space above your head? Because it would be a little bit better. 
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 ; MC: Well -- I can. Hang on one second. 
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 ; LB: Okay. 
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 ; MC: I’m sorry. You’re recording and now I need to do this. Liz Bradbury ; Marianne Cutler ; Record ; Tech 0 271 Going Out During the Pandemic MC: Well I’m going out as little as possible just like lots of other people. And when I am out, I am hyper-conscious of where other people are in relation to me. 
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 ; LB: Yeah. 
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 ; MC: So when I’m in the supermarket, when I’m at Wegmans, or, at Lowes, I’m very conscious of not only where other people in relation to me, but also whether other people seem to be conscious of where they are in relation to other people. As far as the ones who are just blithely moving along. I’m very sort of conscious of that. But in terms of the actual places, I mean literally Wegmans, Lowes for home improvement related things. Couple of trips to CVS. And -- Oh and the post office I think twice. 
 ; CVS ; Liz Bradbury ; Lowes ; Marianne Cutler ; Wegmans 0 373 Her Children's Lives During the Pandemic MC: She is hoping to make the high school team. She’ll be going into high school at the end of August. And she’s hoping to make their team, because as of right now they’re still declared intention of the Board that governs athletics as if there will be a fall season. At this moment, that’s the view they’re taking. So, they’re having optional workouts right now. The team. And she’s doing them so I take her to and from them. They’re wearing masks. They’re doing social distancing and I’m keeping my fingers crossed that all of that is happening the way it should. You know. It’s like, you know you lay everything out and you think what’s the relative benefit versus the relative risk here. And then, you know my partner and I both have been really pretty hyper-vigilant about things. But we’re at that point where we need to start making some decisions that might push that a little bit.
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 ; LB: Yeah. 
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 ; MC: And in terms of relative benefit and risk, the benefit of [Kai?] participating in this. We decided it was the potential risks of it. So Kai is my daughter. I also, last May, we call them, “The Guys.” A male couple who, one of whom I had known since I was 18. We were on the same floor of our dorm together. Actually he was our donor for Kai. And he and his partner, of you know, probably approaching 30 years at this point. They are very involved with Kai’s life. They live in Boston. They’re very much involved with Kai’s life as family members. Not as Dad or anything like that. But we made the decision because they’re hyper-vigilant because one of them is quite, he is actually fairly high risk due to age, that we would join our bubbles. We did that in May, actually. They came down here for Kai’s birthday. And everything was fine. But they have a place in Provincetown. 
 ; Athletics ; Boston ; High School ; Kai ; Liz Bradbury ; Marianne Cutler ; Provincetown 0 570 Life in Provincetown MC: They really are.
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 ; LB: But, did you find that people in Provincetown were much more, or enough of them were okay? Or, what did you think? 
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 ; MC: You know, it was a very -- I go every summer at least once. And I love it. I love just the spectacle. It totally recharges my queer. I just love it. It’s a fun, happy place. But it was not the same P-town that I’ve visited so many times before. I was there during what would have been Bear Week, and I don’t know if you’ve ever been there during Bear Week. 
 ; Bear Week ; Liz Bradbury ; Marianne Cutler ; Provincetown 0 704 Provincetown and Its Community MC: And you know they’d be doing some -- You know I like a good old fashioned now and again. Bourbon now and again. You know, visiting certain spots along commercial street that are my favorites. So there was none of that this time. But we had a wonderful time despite that. So. Now [Sandy?] is actually not here. Sandy’s happy place is. I don’t know if you're familiar with this, but there’s a place in Chester County called, oh gosh. I just call it Kimberton. It’s Camphill Kimberton. It is a community. I don’t even know how large the land area is. A community for adults with intellectual disabilities. And it’s kind of founded on the sort of ‘Steiner’ philosophy. So people living in small houses. There’s usually four villagers. One or two -- Usually I guess two what are called “co-workers.” They’re people who work in the community. Lots of little houses and lots of you know they have a dairy and a [beefery?]. And you know CSA on their property as well. Huge. Garden. All of that. Herb garden. 
 ; Bourbon ; Camphill Kimberton ; Chester Country ; Marianne Cutler ; Old Fashioned 0 852 Sandy and Kai's Experience at Kimberton MC: But I help the community in other ways. But anyway. So this year, Sandy and Kai went, and they had to go into the quarantine there for two weeks before they were. And they were in their sort of own little private living space. And then they were allowed to move into the house where they usually volunteer and live as co-workers basically. So they were quarantined there for two weeks and I was home alone for those two weeks. But then they were in the house for another two weeks. So I was actually home alone for a whole month. That was, between being home all the time and hardly going out, that was a little scary. It’s just so weird. Thank goodness for the dog. That’s all I can say. Sandy’s still there. Kai I fetched. We went to Provincetown. We’re here. So that’s a very long answer to the question about going out. But I haven’t done. (inaudible)
 ; Kai ; Kimberton ; Marianne Cutler ; Sandy ; Volunteer 0 1012 Family Precautions with the Pandemic LB: So she’s been taking care of little kids, but nobody that was really talking about, and then, I don’t think I’ve talked to anybody else. Because all the AIDS people they’re all old, so -- And in fact, most of them, they’re pretty established in their careers, a lot of them are retired with pensions and stuff. So there’s really no financial circumstance that they had to -- Most of those people. Because I talked about COVID with everybody too. But then making the decision to talk to the people of color in the first ten COVID things. 
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 ; The first person. So of all those first ten people, nobody really knew anybody that was sick, and nobody knew anybody knew anybody who was close to them who had died. And the first person I interviewed, it was somebody I’d known for a long long time. But, for the COVID thing said, yeah. Eight family members have had it and three of them have died. It was the first thing he said. So I have people in my extended family who have been very very sick. But I’m finding that a lot of people at least think they don’t know anybody who’s had the disease. So how about you for that? Do you know people that have been sick? 
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 ; MC: I have only known people who that, that I’m aware of, that have been tested because they had hospital exposure. And I know people who have family members -- COVID ; Family ; Kids ; Liz Bradbury ; Marianne Cutler 0 1183 Bradbury's Busy Interview Schedule LB: Great. So it’s really tricky. I mean, I think that. But, I think another thing is that one of the reasons they had me do these interviews is because doing 30 in-person interviews in about six weeks -- Not very many people can -- And they have to be part of the queer community. It’s hard to get people to be able to pull that off. Most of our interns, our employees are too young. They don’t know these people. So they make you this gig. So as and I said, “Okay, but I just want you to know that the Lehigh archive’s oral history, it took them two years to do ten people. 
 ; Archives ; Interviews ; Liz Bradbury 0 1497 Medical Visits Under a Pandemic MC: Basically, because they were all I’m not sure the right word to use -- The level of urgency, they weren’t sort of life-or-death tests. So we’re putting this off. We’re just dealing with the things that have to be dealt with, etc. But you know the biopsy, thyroid biopsy. All those different things. And I’m spending like two and a half months just in limbo. Which was hard. The stress level of the situation. But once I was able to go back to do the follow-up, I’ve been impressed with every interaction I’ve had in that setting. 
 ; Biopsy ; Marianne Cutler ; Thyroid 0 1668 Favorite Restaurant and Vaccine Conspiracies MC: Favorite restaurant in East Stroudsburg. When I’m able to get out of the office to like go out for lunch or after work to like have a beer with friends or whatever, is. I don’t know if you head up to East Stroudsburg very often, but there’s this wonderful place called the Beer House Cafe. Right on the, I think it’s called Crystal Street. The main sort of street of East Stroudsburg. Fantastic sort of North African, the main chef is, you know, she’s got one of her parents is from I can’t remember where, Egypt. North African. Other is South American. Really interesting food and flavors. I just loved this place. And I love her. You know, she’s wonderful. We always chat when I’m there. Because I’m a chatty person, in case you haven’t noticed. So, she’s like talking about you know the conspiracy to keep how’s it, I’m going to say it wrong. Hydroxychloroquine. The conspiracy to keep it out of our hands basically. And it’s like. And then she started going off on the vaccine conspiracy and autism and I had no idea. This part of you. And she’s not open to hearing other perspectives. And if it weren’t for COVID, I wouldn’t have known all this about her. (laughter) 
 ; Beer House Cafe ; COVID ; East Stroudsburg ; Marianne Cutler 0 1771 Floridians Resistance to Wearing Masks LB: Yeah, that’s one of the things about when you go away on vacation. You don’t want to learn about politics of other places where you don’t like. Like people would say to us, “Would you live in Florida?” And we’ve made an effort to be in a place that had racial diversity, and stuff that was a little less scary than every single place is very narrow. Every person is white. But what’s happening there is so ridiculous that it makes it hard to imagine not feeling that when we went back. Because, literally people were wearing masks, young people were wearing masks, teenagers, are being attacked by people. People are shouting at them for wearing a mask. 
 ; Diversity ; Florida ; Liz Bradbury ; White 0 2184 Discussing a Biden Meme LB: I actually think that’s kind of a thing to say. Like I saw a meme that said, you know, it was a picture of Biden that said, “Let me read you parts of my platform.” And at the bottom it said, “You had me at let me read.” I mean, and really how can you justify the craziness of this circumstance. And so. But I do think that in some ways it has to be distilled into a much simpler message because people that are saying this kind of stuff, they still have to be inundated with stuff saying, “Well okay, this is not true. You’re wrong, and here’s why we know that” sound bite. You’ve got to spend a lot of time reading. You know. And they want to justify the fact that they have done this very foolish, unthoughtful thing. And what folks said were going to happen. Who would have even thought that it would have gone this far? Biden ; Liz Bradbury ; Meme 0 2382 Preferences for Democratic Candidates in 2020 Election MC: I was all about Elizabeth Warren. That’s who I wanted. 
 ; LB: Her too. But if she’s in the administration, it would be a wonderful thing. Because we’ll hear her all the time. You know, throw out Betsy DeVos and have Elizabeth Warren. How would that change our lives? You know, every moment of the reality of that and I hope that Joe Biden is smart enough to do that. And I hope the campaign and all of these people are willing to do that and have Bernie Sanders be somebody who is a major advisor, part of the cabinet, angrily disagreeing, fine, you know. Fine with that. He’s not really my guy, but I’m fine with that. He’s really good policy, and some people really within reason, a lot of his economic circumstances, you know what he’s talking about is really important. And it’s what we need. And people say, “I don’t want this guy, he’s too much of a communist.” Well he’s not going to be president. So he’s not going to be vice president. So shut up. 
 ; MC: Right. And so many don’t understand what communist or socialist mean. Right, that’s another one. It’s another dog whistle. “Socialist.” Bernie Sanders ; Betsey DeVos ; Elizabeth Warren ; Liz Bradbury ; Marianne Cutler ; Socialist 0 2564 Cutler's Change from Teaching In-Person to Online LB: You learned how to do it. 
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 ; MC: Exactly. And being in the classroom face-to-face with students plays to my skillset. Being online doesn’t. And we had to make this transition very quickly. We had a week off for spring break and then spring break was extended by a week. So we had two weeks basically to get everything organized. And I did and there were some difficult decisions to make. One of the decisions I made was to make everything asynchronous because I really didn’t have confidence in -- I just felt too uncertain about whether my students would have time-specific access to the Internet, etc. ESU, I had a lot of. And also maybe sociology I think is a subject -- I have a lot of not just racial and ethnic diversity in my classes but I have a lot of socioeconomic diversity in my classes. So having students who are going to be at home with limited access, uncertain broadband capacity, all that. I thought the only way for me to do this is to go asynchronous. Put everything up there for people to do it as they’re able. And then have discussion boards again that people could kind of, as they were able depending on what their resources were. And it worked. I think largely because students were patient with me because they already had rapport. So they were patient with me as I, I’m not a very tech-savvy person. So as I was learning the software it was a steep learning curve. I put something up and they couldn’t access it and I had to figure out why they couldn’t access it. But they were patient with me about it and good-humored basically about it. As I speeded by on the seat of my pants basically. But starting in the fall, starting out online it’s not going to be the same situation. I don’t have rapport with those students already. Now my skills are more developed in the war. I took an online course, not my course that I’m teaching online. But it was on mechanics. It was not about, how do you establish, really establish rapport. Connect with -- Because nobody knows that. Sorry? 
 ; ESU ; Liz Bradbury ; Marianne Cutler ; Spring Break 0 2886 College's Plans on Reopening MC: Right, and one of the things. When ESU was still planning to go with the hybrid model. Yeah, we had all these Zoom meetings with administrators and they showed us how they were going to be setting up the classrooms with their new COVID Capacities and all this over stuff. And they were going to be issuing ESU logo facemasks to everyone to all the students. We were told we had permission to tell a student they couldn’t enter class without a facemask. So much about what we were supposed to do when the student says, “I’ve paid for this class. I’m coming in whether you are forbidding me too or not.” Those kinds of things weren’t so well worked out. But the reality is that even if we could achieve the social distanced classroom, even if we could do that, and I have one class that’s an upper level seminar basically, and all I have is ten students. We could do that. We could have a social distanced classroom. But, you can’t have, you’re going to be able to have students doing social distancing in the dorms. Or in the frat houses. Things like that. I mean, so yeah, we believe it’s the only responsible decision to make and I’m glad they made it. 
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 ; LB: Well Roberta Meek is one of the interviews I did, and she’s at Muhlenberg, and she said, “How do we tell students to not act the way they expected to be able to act when they came to college?” I mean, it’s about interaction. It’s about sharing space. It’s about you know conversations. It’s about living in a new space with new people who are completely different than what you’ve ever been with before. And, she said no matter what we say, we tell people not to drink in the dorm rooms. Colleges ; COVID ; ESU ; Liz Bradbury ; Marianne Cutler ; Muhlenberg ; Reopening ; Roberta Meek ; Students 0 3298 Robin Casey and Food Service LB: Yeah. And actually Robin Casey who is the diversity or one or I guess the head of diversity of that kind of level diversity at Muhlenberg, I interviewed her too. And she was saying that it’s actually pretty comfortable because you get the pick of the dorms. You don’t have to stay in the crappy dorms. They get their own place and they each get their own restroom. But pretty much all the classes, they just stay in their room. There’s no food service. So they can pick up, but they’re paying for that or their loans are going for that or something. But yeah, all summer they’ve had about one hundred students on campus. Hundred students on campus and some of them were in some programs that they sort of had to be there but, for the most part, it’s the way you’re describing it. Internships and that kind of stuff. But it’s really complicated. And yet, you know, there’s no alternative right now. We just have to stop hanging out with each other for a while. We just have to do it. And it’s terrible for people that age. It’s terrible for people my age, or particularly people Trisha’s age. Because she lives with us and she thinks, “I don’t have that many years left to just waste waiting until it’s better. And let’s hope it’s not another four years that we have to wait.” 
 ; Diversity ; Liz Bradbury ; Robin Casey 0 3408 One of the Upsides of Quarantine MC: Okay. One upside of all of this isolation and especially when Sandy and I were both gone and I had literally no responsibilities other than to survive. Because I wasn’t teaching summer school or anything. One of the upsides that normally I don’t watch very much television. Very, very little. I had so much time on my hands that I watched so much Netflix. We only have Netflix and Amazon Prime. 
 ; Amazon Prime ; Marianne Cutler ; Netflix 0 3678 Queer Shows Growing Up MC: Right. You know, and you go on looking for things and found things like, The Killing of Sister George.
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 ; LB: Yeah. Or, you know. I always say this. The first movie I saw when I was a kid, when was growing up in Connecticut. I could watch the million-dollar movie and they show the same movie every day for a week in the afternoon. If you were like sick and home from school you just like kept watching this movie and it was The Children’s Hour. And Shirley MacLaine is in this and she plays the gay character who turns out to be gay. They’re accused of being gay. Of course Audrey Hepburn was in it too. And at the end she confesses that she really is a lesbian and that she’s interested in Audrey Hepburn and then she kills herself. But reality is, and I talk about this all the time, I said when I saw that I went, and I watched it every single day. And I absolutely have continued to fantasize about Shirley MacLaine ever since. I watched every single movie she was in. I saw every television show she was in. I just thought this, there was even. And I even said this about, The Miracle Worker where the incredibly hot Anne Bancroft is talking about how when she was in the orphanage, you know, women who went after young girls, and I’m like, yeah? Like that was my tune-in to that. That that was so exciting that I could just hear somebody talking about queer people. Audrey Hepburn ; Liz Bradbury ; Marianne Cutler ; Shirley MacLaine ; The Children's Hour ; The Miracle Worker 0 3998 Queer Star Trek MC: Well my obsession when I could. When I was in like high school. And yeah, I wasn’t out yet. Anything that was set in a women’s prison. So, I’m living in New Jersey. This is in the seventies and the PBS station would show an episode of Prisoner: Cell Block H. An Australian series. I was like, I watched it religiously. Not even knowing what compelled me. 
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 ; LB: Are you Voyager fan? Star Trek: Voyager. You just need to watch that. Because it’s run by women. And there’s this huge subtext of this lesbian relationship in the second half of the series that they would writing to. And there’s an enormous amount of fan fiction between the captain and this other character played by Jeri Ryan, which you know. People still, cause that’s been playing in other countries now. And when Kate Mulgrew. Kate Mulgrew was of course also in Orange is the New Black. She was Red in Orange is the New Black. She will still do Star Trek conventions and she’ll go to like England or something and she’ll go into a room and they’re be like a thousand people in there and every one of them is a lesbian. The one time I heard her, the actress says, “Is there anyone is this room who isn’t gay?” And like one guy. But she says, and these women are coming up and asking questions and stuff. What about the writing between you and Seven of Nine. And she says, “Well, that was the best writing. It was really good writing.” Jeri Ryan ; Kate Mulgrew ; Liz Bradbury ; Marianne Cutler ; Orange is the New Black ; Star Trek 0 4114 Jeri Ryan's Experience with Lesbians LB: Yeah, so she’s the character. At one point, this woman gets up and she’s wearing a T-shirt, of course they’ve all got these sort of Geordie accents and they’re all all this stuff. And cause they just started to show that a couple years ago in England all the time. Or in the UK. And she looks at this woman’s T-shirt and she says,“So, I go commando. What does that mean?” And the woman at the podium says, “I’ll show you in a little while.” And the room erupts with hysterical laughter. It goes on and on. It’s just like that. And I think like -- So I ended up writing a couple of books and one of them has a character in it, one of the love interest characters is fashioned after Kate Mulgrew as the person in Voyager. Although it’s nothing like her. I just thought that’s a good person to fashion this character after. And then she, Kate Mulgrew, wrote an autobiography and she did a reading in Philadelphia at the library in Philadelphia. At the end, you can have her sign the book. And I gave her one of the books that I wrote that she’s the character. I have a picture of her in my office touching the book. Kate Mulgrew ; Lesbians ; Liz Bradbury ; Philadelphia 0 4338 The Reality of Isolation LB: That’s true. And so what’s your biggest frustration during all this stuff. Asking everybody that. 
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 ; MC: Frustration. Well I think the hardest thing is the isolation, honestly. I don’t find it frustrating, although I find it. I think it’s sad sometimes. I get sad that I’m not able to spend time with, you know, I have a very. I mean, my family aside, my support network of friends is very strong, and group of about five of us who get together regularly. It hurts. I feel sad that we can only do things by Zoom. That’s the thing that’s hardest. But I think the thing that’s most frustrating is the stuff I read where people are denying the science. And attacking people who are wearing masks or people posting signs, “No masks allowed in this store” or whatever. Things like that. Or when I am out, I mean most people are doing fine. But there are those people who are, if they’re wearing a mask, they’re wearing it incorrectly. Their nose is out, or things like that. It’s on their chin. But that is what’s most frustrating because that is what is going to prolong the situation of isolation that makes me sad. So, I think that’s it. 
 ; LB: Universally, that’s what every single person that I’ve interviewed has said. That people are not taking this seriously and they’re not doing. You know Gary and Steve, they were my last interview and they said we’re doing everything right, but because people aren’t doing things right we still have to stay inside. We still have to have all the same job worries and all this stuff because other people. You know to not have the leadership to convince people to do the right thing. Which is really the job of the leader of the country to do those things. People like Franklin Roosevelt could talk people into doing the right thing. You know we could have, make people comfortable. And then make people understand. You have to do this. 
 ; Franklin Roosevelt ; Isolation ; Liz Bradbury ; Marianne Cutler ; Zoom 0 4547 Takes on the Black Lives Matter Movement MC: And when George Floyd was killed and we started organizing rallies I felt unsafe going to them. And so I didn’t. You know, Kai, great kid. She’s very plugged in to politics and everything. Arguing with all of her friends over social media about things like Black Lives Matter. Things like income inequality. All those kinds of things. I’d like to take a little credit for some of that. But, anyway. She and I at one point we were like, because she likes to do that too. She likes to be present. She likes to show up. And we were like, “We want to go but we’re not going to go.” And that’s very hard. I mean, I’ve been doing other things. Giving money. Doing the things I can do at a distance. But it’s been very hard not to participate actively. 
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 ; LB: Everybody I know over fifty has said that. Everybody that I’ve interviewed. I mean, in interviewing people who have said. Blaise and Alanna who were saying, you know, “We’ve been marching since the sixties.” And to not be able to do this. And when the stuff happened in Allentown, Adrian actually texted me right from the first march, which was and he texted me. It was late at night. And then the next day, they had another march and I said to Trish, “You know. This is right outside our house. It’s like three blocks away.” And I said, “I think I need to go to this.” And she said, “Really?” I mean, I’m at enough risk. But she’s really really at risk. She has lupus. She has lung issues. Stuff like that. So I said, “Let me look at the thing.” And I looked at a video of the first march, so it was one. And the next night they had another march. And I was thinking about going the second night. And on the first night there’s all these young people. And they’re walking along. They all have masks on. And then I saw three people who were part of the group who didn’t have masks on. And they’re all there. And they’re chatting, and they’re shouting. And I’m thinking, “I know this is what, I mean I’ve done this. And I know that this is a risk. And I can’t take this risk. I have to --” 
 ; Allentown ; Black Lives Matter ; George Floyd ; Liz Bradbury ; Marianne Cutler 0 4864 Moravian Graduate Mention LB: Well, one of the things when I interviewed somebody who was 22 and had just graduated from Moravian. And he was saying that -- I mean, he was very calm and he was concerned about this. And he said the same thing. He was frustrated with people who don’t believe this. But he also was inherently calm. And one of the reasons he was calm was that he has his whole life in front of him. He doesn’t have to think he’s sucking up the last. You know like this is my last chance. I mean things will work out. Things will be okay. This person is being very careful. They’re probably not going to get the disease. Because they’re being very, very careful. They’re not going to make that happen to themselves. 
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 ; MC: And that’s another thing. The smart. Okay. This is going to sound terrible, probably. I don’t know if I should say it. You know, it’s being recorded. 
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 ; LB: Go ahead. Say it. 
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 ; MC: You know. Survival of the fittest doesn’t mean survival of the physically strongest necessarily. It means survival of the most adaptable. Liz Bradbury ; Marianne Cutler ; Moravian 0 5063 Talking About the Spanish Flu LB: I know. And the unfortunate is that even with the flu. I like to talk about this all the time because I’m obsessed with the flu epidemic of 1918 and that has to do with the fact that my area of expertise with regard to art history is around that time. In that section of the and how it affected people and it also affected me directly because my grandmother died in that flu epidemic. She was 32 years old when my father was four. And so it affected my life because my Dad grew up without a mother. I didn’t have two grandmothers. That kind of stuff. But the most significant thing about that flu epidemic was. Well, there’s several things -- one hundred million, fifty to one hundred million people died of that flu. One in three people of the world had it. But the most significant reasons for that we were at war. Everybody was at war. And they all didn’t want to talk about the fact that their country was having casualties from an illness. So there was actually sedition laws that you couldn’t talk about the flu epidemic in 1918.
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 ; MC: Really? I wasn’t aware of that. 
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 ; LB: And that’s why it’s called the Spanish Flu. Because Spain was the only country that was not in World War I. They were neutral. And so they were reporting on all of the stuff that was happening. All these people were dying in Spain because they were dying anywhere. So it was the headlines of the newspaper, but they wouldn’t talk about it in England or Germany or the US. Because they didn’t want to tell anybody that we were all sick. It all happened in 1918. And interestingly, it was about a fifteen-month period and it was much more serious than this. For one thing, it struck people between the ages of 20 to 40. That was the primary thing. People would die in one day. And they’d show symptoms in the morning and die at the end of the day. And you know, one month in New York City twenty-three thousand people died. And people in Allentown. There was a huge number of people in Allentown, huge number of people in Easton. But Bethlehem actually quarantined so they didn’t have as many cases. They had hundreds of cases instead of thousands of cases. But nobody was allowed to talk about it, so there’s not a lot of information about it. That’s one of the reasons that we really. So, there was a herd immunity there because so many people had it. Hilda Doolittle had it, among other things. She almost died from it. That’s how she met Bryher, the lesbian that she stayed with for the rest of her life. She came and took care of her. Also, women who were pregnant were much more likely to get it and seventy-two percent of the women who were pregnant who got it died. So I think my grandmother was pregnant. And Hilda Doolittle was pregnant. She had a miscarriage and she was so sick. She was rich, but she was really really sick. It was during World War II, or World War I. And Bryher came and said, “You’re really sick. I need to take you some place and make you health.” Bryher was the richest woman in the UK at the time. And took her away to an island where they could quarantine so that she could get better and she did. But, it was a terrible terrible illness. And yet we weren’t allowed to talk about it. And that’s kind of the way this is now. You know, we won’t have as many cases if we just stop testing people. So same mentality one hundred years later. 
 ; Liz Bradbury ; Sedition Laws ; Spanish Flu 0 5335 Criticism of Trump's Handling of the COVID-19 LB: Until people know people who have been sick and died, they’re just acting like it’s not happening. Because they don’t know anybody who has been sick or who has died. Particularly who has died. And so, a crazy guy. A repair guy came to one of the people that I was interviewing’s house and he said, “You know, this is all a plot by Hillary to make people get sick so that would collapse --” Like Hillary would do this now. To collapse the economy so that Trump won’t win. And this person said, “Yeah, well. Okay.” You know, and he said to him, “You don’t know anybody’s who’s been sick, do you?” And you goes, well, “I don’t know anybody personal. I know some people who have been sick but not in my personal circle who has been sick.” So see, nobody really has it. Well, they’re going to wait until people really have it. You know, it’s not enough to have five hundred people die in Allentown. It has to be five hundred people in your own circle. People die. So that in the really high. And with the flu epidemic of 1918, it was the same situation. There was a lot of deaths, then it sort of ended. It didn’t go. Then there was this second wave that was just horrible. It was exactly the same configuration of the year that was just, where people would get like on a subway car. Coney Island. By the time they get off they collapsed and died. You know, just happened when they were in areas like that. Just happened so easily. And so maybe that is not going to be the -- Some people are thinking that’s not going to be the case. It’s not the same kind of thing. Some people are saying that little kids are less likely to get it. But as my friend who’s a pediatrician said, you know, she said I’m getting a lot of people saying, do you think I can go ahead and send my kid to daycare? And she said, so when you send your kids to daycare, do they ever get sick from any of the other kids there? They get everything there. If you do it, they will get it. They’re going to get sick. Or they’re going to get exposed. And then they’re going to have it. Maybe they won’t get really sick, but you’ll have to look around your circle of family and friends and see if there’s anybody there that’s really going to be at risk. So a lot of the people who I have interviewed who have been older have said that was the thing that really bothered them because they couldn’t really see their grandkids because they’re the ones at risk. And they don’t want to do that to their grandkids. It’s really. Donald Trump ; Hillary Clinton ; Liz Bradbury 0 5520 Comparing COVID-19 to a Bad Flu LB: No. It’s really not like even like having a bad flu. It’s like having -- So I have a very close friend who had it and she said. You know, she had a one hundred three temperature for two weeks. She said she woke up every morning saying to herself, okay, today I just have to not die. And she said, if I have to go to the bathroom, I had to crawl there. I couldn’t walk. And she luckily had other people around who finally took her to the hospital. She was in contact with people and she said, you need to, it’s too many days for you to have this high temperature. And she went into the hospital and then they did a bunch of stuff to her and she got better. But, she’s still suffering from that, and other people that we know are still having symptoms of it. One person that I talked to said after months they had a close family member that had it. And after a month they were still just, couldn’t do anything it was so. So I think that people don’t understand how serious it is. And unfortunately, people may have to know somebody before they’ll take this seriously. And there are some media problems with it too. I don't think the media is making it clear enough to people. Although, what, you know. I mean, if you tell somebody that one hundred fifty thousand people in America have died, and they say, “Yeah, but it’s all a hoax.” How do you fix that? I mean -- 
 ; Flu ; Hospital ; Liz Bradbury 0 5701 The Importance of the Truth LB: Do you want say like, could you write a paper about that? I want you to research that and bring me some real citations that aren’t just from some crazy. 
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 ; MC: Yeah and it’s -- But the thing is that, I don’t know. I thought with my students that if I say something like, “I get how you might think that’s how it is, but here’s some other information. And I think that you should just think about that. I generally don’t tell them that they’re wrong. But, I just try to say here’s some other information that’s verifiable. You can go and check it out if you want to. I just give them something to think about. And I just leave it with them. Because, what are you going to do, right? 
 ; Citations ; Liz Bradbury ; Marianne Cutler ; Paper 0 5944 Agoraphobia Over the 2020 Presidential Election LB: Yeah. And I sent a message to somebody who was here and he’s moved to Lisbon, Portugal. And I needed to tell him about something, and he said, “You sent this to me at two o’clock in the morning. You’re up in the middle of the night.” And I said, “Yeah, I haven’t slept since the election. Since the last presidential election. Actually six months before that. And I guess one of the frustrations and angers I have is I don’t know how, if I’m ever going to feel not this way. Even if things go better. I’m never going to feel the way I felt during the Obama administration again. Cause I’m just too aware of the stupidity and. That’s another thing too. I just don’t think like and I know other people that said that they’ve developed a level of agoraphobia. 
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 ; MC: Whataphobia? 
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 ; LB: Agoraphobia. They just don’t feel comfortable going out. And you know, Adrian has talked about opening the center. And immediately I’m going like I’m going to -- I just said. And I said I’m not going to do it. And I just said it’s a long way off. Don’t worry about it now. And I think that’s a good thing for him to say. Agoraphobia ; Lisbon ; Liz Bradbury ; Marianne Cutler ; Portugal ; Presidential Elections 0 6204 Motivating College Students to Vote LB: Good. Yeah. Well, that’s the secret. At Muhlenberg when Adrian was a student at Muhlenberg and it was the Obama election, there was I often I give this dynamic people and reasons to do things and she has say, has been about forty-five kids and then forty-five college students and when Adrian was there it was seven hundred college students. And then when they left it was forty-five again. And he organized for those students to go vote. And I really think that Obama’s win was because of students, of college students. Which I don’t think Hillary Clinton ignite at all. 
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 ; MC: Nor is Joe Biden, and I hope that whoever he -- 
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 ; LB: But I think that other things are igniting college students now.
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 ; MC: True. 
 ; Hillary Clinton ; Joe Biden ; Liz Bradbury ; Marianne Cutler ; Muhlenberg ; Obama 0 6563 Closing Remarks MC: I really approached this as a conversation more than. 
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 ; LB: I take it as that. 
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 ; MC: And I’ve really enjoyed this conversation.
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 ; LB: Good. And I’m also to come and fix your house as soon as COVID’s -- 
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 ; MC: Awesome, excellent. 
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 ; LB: I’m going to turn off the recording now. So thank you again so much. 
 ; Closing Remarks ; Liz Bradbury ; Marianne Cutler 0 MovingImage Marianne Cutler talks about her experiences teaching during the Pandemic, and talks about how there is more LGBTQ+ representation in modern media as well. She also goes on to talk about how the 2020 Presidential Election would shape the future of this country. LIZ BRADBURY: We even have a backup audio one in case the video doesn't work for some reason. MARIANNE CUTLER: The little recorder icon has come on. LB: I can see that. Are you able to twist that a little bit so you don't have so much space above your head? Because it would be a little bit better. MC: Well -- I can. Hang on one second. LB: Okay. MC: I'm sorry. You're recording and now I need to do this. LB: We even have a backup audio one in case the video doesn't work for some reason. MC: The little recorder icon has come on. LB: I can see that. Are you able to twist that a little bit so you don't have so much space above your head? Because it would be a little bit better. MC: Well -- I can. Hang on one second. LB: Okay. MC: I'm sorry. You're recording and now I need to do this. LB: That's all right. That's all right. We've got plenty of time. MC: So what I need to do is lower it. Is that what you're saying? LB: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's perfect. MC: Okay. I thought I was [raising it?]. LB: There we go. This is great. There's just not so much space over your head. You're sort of in the middle, so that's good. MC: Okay. LB: Okay. So, it's on and that's on. Yes. So, with this project Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences from HIV AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury and I'm here with Marianne Cutler to talk to her about her experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during the time of the COVID-19 pandemic as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT community archive. We are meeting on Zoom today and it is July 30th. Is that right? MC: Yes. It's hard to keep track. LB: It is. That's something that everyone needs to know with regards to archive stuff. So yeah July 30th, 2020. So, thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start can you please state your full name and spell it for me. MC: Sure. My name is Marianne Cutler. M-A-R-I-A-N-N-E C-U-T-L-E-R. LB: Okey-dokey. And will you please share your birthdate? MC: December 23rd, 1961. I'm fifty-eight and a half years old. LB: Okay. Well that's good. So what town are you in? MC: Bethlehem. LB: Okay. MC: Bethlehem City. Not township. Bethlehem City not township. LB: City. Okay. So, and this keeps reminding me to be sure it's recording, so yes it is. So this is the consent part. Do you consent to this interview today? MC: I do. LB: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable formats? MC: I do. LB: Do you consent to the LGBT archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats including films, articles, websites, presentations, and other formats we may not even know about today. MC: Now you're going too far. No, I'm just kidding. I do. LB: Do you understand that you will have 30 days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview and identify any parts you'd like to delete and/or withdraw your interview from the project? MC: I understand. LB: Okay. What is your zip code? MC: 18018. LB: Okay. Did you say you were thirty-nine and a half, cause that's the next question? MC: Fifty-eight and a half. LB: Oh, Fifty-eight and a half. Why did I -- I misheard you. MC: Wow, thirty-nine and a half. LB: That's cool. MC: That's a long time ago. LB: For a long time after I turned forty, I still thought I was thirty-eight. I just kept thinking I was thirty-eight and then I'd go wait, no, I'm really not thirty-eight. How do you identify yourself within the LGBT community? MC: I would describe myself as a masculine of center lesbian? LB: Okay. And cisgender? MC: Cisgender, yes. LB: So, there's lots of things we can talk about. You can talk about anything you want, and in fact we were starting out talking about, let's just go back into this since we were already in that. We were talking about where we go to shop. Where we've been going out. So go ahead and talk about that. MC: Well I'm going out as little as possible just like lots of other people. And when I am out, I am hyper-conscious of where other people are in relation to me. LB: Yeah. MC: So when I'm in the supermarket, when I'm at Wegmans, or, at Lowes, I'm very conscious of not only where other people in relation to me, but also whether other people seem to be conscious of where they are in relation to other people. As far as the ones who are just blithely moving along. I'm very sort of conscious of that. But in terms of the actual places, I mean literally Wegmans, Lowes for home improvement related things. Couple of trips to CVS. And -- Oh and the post office I think twice. LB: Yeah. MC: Now, I have to leave the house for some other reasons. I've been having some medical issues that require trips to the doctor's, but anything I can do via, you know with the tele thing. Therapy and all that. That sort of stuff I'm doing this way. My daughter, I have a fourteen-year-old daughter who plays field hockey, and she's a goalkeeper, it's awesome. LB: Cool. MC: She is hoping to make the high school team. She'll be going into high school at the end of August. And she's hoping to make their team, because as of right now they're still declared intention of the Board that governs athletics as if there will be a fall season. At this moment, that's the view they're taking. So, they're having optional workouts right now. The team. And she's doing them so I take her to and from them. They're wearing masks. They're doing social distancing and I'm keeping my fingers crossed that all of that is happening the way it should. You know. It's like, you know you lay everything out and you think what's the relative benefit versus the relative risk here. And then, you know my partner and I both have been really pretty hyper-vigilant about things. But we're at that point where we need to start making some decisions that might push that a little bit. LB: Yeah. MC: And in terms of relative benefit and risk, the benefit of [Kai?] participating in this. We decided it was the potential risks of it. So Kai is my daughter. I also, last May, we call them, "The Guys." A male couple who, one of whom I had known since I was eighteen. We were on the same floor of our dorm together. Actually he was our donor for Kai. And he and his partner, of you know, probably approaching thirty years at this point. They are very involved with Kai's life. They live in Boston. They're very much involved with Kai's life as family members. Not as Dad or anything like that. But we made the decision because they're hyper-vigilant because one of them is quite, he is actually fairly high risk due to age, that we would join our bubbles. We did that in May, actually. They came down here for Kai's birthday. And everything was fine. But they have a place in Provincetown. LB: Yeah. I saw that you were in Provincetown. MC: So, Kai and I actually just came from ten days in Provincetown. Well about a week ago we got back. So we went there, but the drive there. We went eight hours without using the bathroom. LB: I know. You know, we go to Florida and it's fourteen hours and I said, we have to get Shewees. MC: Yeah, I'm the same. I was going to get them. LB: She said, I'm not doing that and I said then we can't go because I can't. She really can't do that stuff. I'm like, ah, look I'll go behind the trees. But I've never known her to do that. And I said, I don't see how. That's the one thing. Cause we have a place and we can get down there and we can -- But people in Florida are horrible. P-town I think.... MC: Oh my God. LB: Yeah. MC: People are insane. LB: It's just horrible. And the numbers are just unbelievably dangerous. MC: They really are. LB: But, did you find that people in Provincetown were much more, or enough of them were okay? Or, what did you think? MC: You know, it was a very -- I go every summer at least once. And I love it. I love just the spectacle. It totally recharges my queer. I just love it. It's a fun, happy place. But it was not the same P-town that I've visited so many times before. I was there during what would have been Bear Week, and I don't know if you've ever been there during Bear Week. LB: I've seen pictures. It wouldn't be something to do. MC: It's usually jam-packed. LB: Yeah. MC: It's got to be one of their most, you know one of their busiest theme weeks. LB: Sure. Yeah. MC: And it wasn't. It wasn't packed. But, again I, they were not wearing masks in the main drag commercial street. And they have people kind of situated at each end who are mask ambassadors. They've got the sash saying mask ambassador. LB: Of course. So brilliant. I could handle that. MC: I went a little bit in like just a couple blocks in because there was one place I needed to go to buy something that I can't buy in Pennsylvania, and I will just leave it at that. But it seemed like most the people who were walking around were wearing masks. LB: Yeah. MC: The beach was, we did go to the beach. And it was comparatively empty. LB: Yeah. MC: The distancing wasn't an issue. Yeah, so I mean I felt comfortable there. But not comfortable enough to just. Like normally I would be hanging out on the commercial street just watching. LB: Sure, I know. I've done it. MC: And you know they'd be doing some -- You know I like a good old fashioned now and again. Bourbon now and again. You know, visiting certain spots along commercial street that are my favorites. So there was none of that this time. But we had a wonderful time despite that. So. Now [Sandy?] is actually not here. Sandy's happy place is. I don't know if you're familiar with this, but there's a place in Chester County called, oh gosh. I just call it Kimberton. It's Camphill Kimberton. It is a community. I don't even know how large the land area is. A community for adults with intellectual disabilities. And it's kind of founded on the sort of 'Steiner' philosophy. So people living in small houses. There's usually four villagers. One or two -- Usually I guess two what are called "co-workers." They're people who work in the community. Lots of little houses and lots of you know they have a dairy and a bakery. And you know CSA on their property as well. Huge. Garden. All of that. Herb garden. LB: Yeah. MC: Mosaics. Bakery. They sell their goods. There's a Kimberton Whole Foods that sells their baked goods and all of that as well. So it's this completely insular bubble unto itself. And Sandy's brother who's profoundly autistic lives in a very comparable kind of community in New Zealand, which is where she's from. And so when she discovered this place. She said, "I want to do some volunteer work there." She usually does just for a couple weeks. But this, obviously it's an unusual summer. So, in order for her to go, it's actually kind of swell. I bring them supplies and I know people there. But I don't have the right temperament for volunteering there. I'm not that good a human being, I guess. LB: I understand. I really understand. MC: But I help the community in other ways. But anyway. So this year, Sandy and Kai went, and they had to go into the quarantine there for two weeks before they were. And they were in their sort of own little private living space. And then they were allowed to move into the house where they usually volunteer and live as co-workers basically. So they were quarantined there for two weeks and I was home alone for those two weeks. But then they were in the house for another two weeks. So I was actually home alone for a whole month. That was, between being home all the time and hardly going out, that was a little scary. It's just so weird. Thank goodness for the dog. That's all I can say. Sandy's still there. Kai I fetched. We went to Provincetown. We're here. So that's a very long answer to the question about going out. But I haven't done. (inaudible) MC: At all, except by Zoom. LB: Of all the people that I've spoken to, and as I said this is 30 interviews that I've done, you are the I realize that I'm trying to make a lot of different demographic broader demographics and it's a little harder to do that when you're talking about people who lived through the 80s and 90s within the LGBT community in the Lehigh Valley working on the AIDS issues. And it was all white people. It was different types of people and a little bit different ages, but there all about the same age or about my age. And everybody was white. So I made a big effort in the first ten people that I interviewed for COVID to make sure that it was people of color. And I was able to do that. But I realized that none of the people, and then I've done a bunch of that, I don't think anyone else I've interviewed has a kid. I realize that I've picked sort of a foolish demographic with regard to that. MC: That really changes the equation in lots of ways. LB: That really does, and so. I have interviewed a few people who are caring for kids like Roberta Meek -- I don't know if you know her but she's a professor and a good friend of mine and she's a professor at Muhlenberg. And she's just in the retirement phase, and she's about my age. And she has, her daughter, her son and daughter-in-law have four kids and two of them are really little, so she's been taking care of them. And her whole family is in one bubble so that she's not cross, there's no danger of that as well. MC: Right. LB: So she's been taking care of little kids, but nobody that was really talking about, and then, I don't think I've talked to anybody else. Because all the AIDS people they're all old, so -- And in fact, most of them, they're pretty established in their careers, a lot of them are retired with pensions and stuff. So there's really no financial circumstance that they had to -- Most of those people. Because I talked about COVID with everybody too. But then making the decision to talk to the people of color in the first ten COVID things. The first person. So of all those first ten people, nobody really knew anybody that was sick, and nobody knew anybody knew anybody who was close to them who had died. And the first person I interviewed, it was somebody I'd known for a long long time. But, for the COVID thing said, yeah. Eight family members have had it and three of them have died. It was the first thing he said. So I have people in my extended family who have been very very sick. But I'm finding that a lot of people at least think they don't know anybody who's had the disease. So how about you for that? Do you know people that have been sick? MC: I have only known people who that, that I'm aware of, that have been tested because they had hospital exposure. And I know people who have family members -- LB: Right. MC: --who know people have been sick and died. But my direct relationships with people, no. On Sandy's side of the family, they're all in New Zealand, and New Zealand handled this -- LB: I know. I know. I've read all about it. They're just right. MC: I have leader envy any time I hear anything about. You know they just issued? a whole chunk of money to the arts. To like support the arts. It's like, you know. LB: Well the only one thing they've got is there's no tourism because you can't in general. A bunch of idiots and we've ruined. MC: That's true. And that's a big hit because that's one of their main money-makers. But they're not backing down on it. They keep quarantined for two weeks, period. Sandy wants to actually go back to visit, but by the time she's done with the two-week quarantine, she'd have to turn around and come home again. Come here again. LB: What does she do? MC: She's a professor at Moravian College. She does medieval history. LB: Great. So it's really tricky. I mean, I think that. But, I think another thing is that one of the reasons they had me do these interviews is because doing thirty in-person interviews in about six weeks -- Not very many people can -- And they have to be part of the queer community. It's hard to get people to be able to pull that off. Most of our interns, our employees are too young. They don't know these people. So they make you this gig. So as and I said, "Okay, but I just want you to know that the Lehigh archive's oral history, it took them two years to do ten people. MC: Crazy. LB: And well I may be a year. But still. There's a reason for that. It's much easier to do interviews on Zoom. They were doing them with cameras before COVID. And you have to schedule it and it's much harder. But it's much easier to do these on Zoom. But the truth is, I know a lot of queer people, and yet -- MC: I would hope so in your person. LB: It's harder to find, but people that I know, I mean I don't know a lot of people that are very very cavalier about this. So that's one of the reasons that a lot of the people that I'm interviewing don't know people who are very sick. Because like I was talking to Steve Libby and Gary Gaugler yesterday, they run Gay Journal Magazine and stuff. And they said we've been absurdly, I mean. We're still washing everything when it comes into the house. And they said nobody we know is like this. And I said actually everybody you and I know together are acting this way. Because you just aren't aware of it because you're not communicating with everybody around here. So, truthfully people are being very careful. Drive around. We had to go to the doctor at rush hour the other day just for a checkup we had to go to. And there was nobody. We're driving through Whitehall on 145, because we had to go to Laury Station. We're coming back. It was four thirty, five o'clock in the afternoon on 145. We're going past the malls and everything. And it looked like it was Sunday morning, you know. There was hardly anybody on the street in comparison to what it normally would be. MC: Right. LB: And I'm thinking everybody's really back to work. Everybody's on this green thing and they're all out doing -- It's not really true. It just sort of seems that way when you look at social media. MC: LIke I've made the decision that tomorrow I'm getting a haircut. This is four months growth. This is literally. Because I got a haircut right before we went into lockdown just because it was convenient. It turned out that way. This is four months' growth and I, you know. But I had this long exchange with the woman who cuts my hair. What their protocols were. You know, I'm not just like I didn't just like call to make an appointment. How are you doing with this, and how are you and. The whole thing. I assured that. Well, I can't say there's going to be no risk. There will be only very little risk. Because again, it's the risk benefit thing. LB: I talked to a person who, it was Alanna Berger who she was one of the interviews, Alanna Berger and Blaise Liffick. And they're the Silent Witness people with the big rainbow umbrellas at Pride Festival. They have a transgender daughter who they said in their interview, they said that they went, that she went to the dentist and the dentist walked in the room with no mask on. MC: See, that's -- How can a dentist do that? LB: I know. And then she, a week later she was sick and she went to her doctor and the doctor wasn't sure, and thought that maybe she had a -- You know, they weren't sure about stuff. And then she thought she might have an embolism because she's on estrogen and that can be a (inaudible) -- And people have had strokes from this and they said sort of said they think it's Coronavirus and then they dealt with her. And later, they think she's had a stroke. And the only place that she's been is to the dentist. So I mean. And there's... Frankly the medical people have been incredibly careful. We're very comfortable at the medical places. MC: Right. Absolutely, I've felt the same way. LB: You know. We also are feeling like we go to the doctor all the time because that's the only place we've gone. So we've gone out like four times. Or three. I think I've gone about three times. Yeah, we've gone out three times. And it's all appointments. So it seems like that's all we do. MC: Well right before. Again, right before we kind of went into this isolation. In March, I had a series of medical tests and all these follow-ups that they wanted me to do. Okay, we want you to do this test, that test. Have this test, et cetera. And then everything stopped. So I spent like more than two months basically in limbo. LB: Oh God. MC: Basically, because they were all I'm not sure the right word to use -- The level of urgency, they weren't sort of life-or-death tests. So we're putting this off. We're just dealing with the things that have to be dealt with, etc. But you know the biopsy, thyroid biopsy. All those different things. And I'm spending like two and a half months just in limbo. Which was hard. The stress level of the situation. But once I was able to go back to do the follow-up, I've been impressed with every interaction I've had in that setting. LB: Well they are trying to, you know, there's -- MC: Apparently that is the new face of the COVID front lines. LB: Have you seen that meme where the person, said there's a young woman, and she's sort of looking out the window and it's -- (laughter) (inaudible) MC: Are you depressed about sleeping with demons -- Something -- (inaudible) Have you seen the one, might be for you? Have you seen the one, it's a medieval painting basically. There's a woman lying in bed. And there's a demon sort of walking away. That face when your demon lover has to go meet with the Lizard people. (laughter) LB: I mean there are people who are still falling for this stuff. I know. I actually had someone contact me directly from Texas. Used to live here and she said, you know I have family members that believe this stuff. Why are you in Texas? MC: Yeah, that's the pre-existing condition I guess. Well, actually one of the disappointments that I've experienced. I mean this is all related to COVID, obviously. It's not some of the direct questions that you sent me. LB: Everybody else has answered that. MC: Favorite restaurant in East Stroudsburg. When I'm able to get out of the office to like go out for lunch or after work to like have a beer with friends or whatever, is. I don't know if you head up to East Stroudsburg very often, but there's this wonderful place called the Beer House Cafe. Right on the, I think it's called Crystal Street. The main sort of street of East Stroudsburg. Fantastic sort of North African, the main chef is, you know, she's got one of her parents is from I can't remember where, Egypt. North African. Other is South American. Really interesting food and flavors. I just loved this place. And I love her. You know, she's wonderful. We always chat when I'm there. Because I'm a chatty person, in case you haven't noticed. So, she's like talking about you know the conspiracy to keep how's it, I'm going to say it wrong. Hydroxychloroquine. The conspiracy to keep it out of our hands basically. And it's like. And then she started going off on the vaccine conspiracy and autism and I had no idea. This part of you. And she's not open to hearing other perspectives. And if it weren't for COVID, I wouldn't have known all this about her. (laughter) LB: Yeah, that's one of the things about when you go away on vacation. You don't want to learn about politics of other places where you don't like. Like people would say to us, "Would you live in Florida?" And we've made an effort to be in a place that had racial diversity, and stuff that was a little less scary than every single place is very narrow. Every person is white. But what's happening there is so ridiculous that it makes it hard to imagine not feeling that when we went back. Because, literally people were wearing masks, young people were wearing masks, teenagers, are being attacked by people. People are shouting at them for wearing a mask. MC: I know. LB: And one young woman, she was, I know the person. But she said, "I am very at risk. I'm very at risk. And my granddaughter who's fourteen and wants to be with her friend who is fourteen." So they go for a walk outside. They social distance, and they wore a mask. And they were walking down the street. She told me right where they were and everything. And she said this pickup truck stopped and people yelled at them and they spit on them, just because they were wearing a mask. And she said, "You know, my granddaughter, if she got sick she'd probably be okay. But she could really make me sick." I mean she's just trying to do, a lot of people who are that age, to be sympathetic and not selfish. She tried to teach people to not be selfish. And she said, and this is why where we got all the time and, you can get away with it if you don't know. But once you know this stuff, it's very uncomfortable and -- Yeah, I think that I mean... MC: And there's no reasoning. LB: No, there's no reasoning. You really think you could just say here's all these things that are very easy to understand. I read a thing that said: to be really proactive you should join this work and it was a pro of the kind of the people that we would be supportive in terms of their political leanings. And they said don't just post memes and don't just do this. You have to do work and I said, "Yeah except for that memes are what's changing people's minds." I mean I need to see a picture of Joe Biden and his policy and a picture of Trump and the counter-policy where he support the demon lady. And just say like, here's a guy who supports these things that are for his strategy. And I know actually, I provided voter information to people for years. And that's how you get people to vote. You get people to look at that and they go that I saw this thing. They don't want to read something. MC: When I post an article I know that some of the people whose feeds that it shows up on will read it. Or at least -- But I know that other people, they'll just see the headline. Like, if I, and for me if the headline captures something important, post it. People who won't read it, they'll see the headline and maybe something will click. You know? LB: You have to do it that way. But I also think that people need to be. I had long talks with Trish about this. I think that people need to be posting. People just tend to post negative things all the time because that's all they're seeing. And they need to post parts of Biden's platform so that whether you like this guy or not, his platform, if you compare that to Trump's platform, there's no challenge. I mean it's like. Do you believe in science? No, I don't believe in science. You know, here's how we could have avoided this thing. That's exactly the opposite of what Trump did. So this guy wouldn't have done it. This guy would have. I think that that's problem. We're not getting that kind of message and while lots of thinking people will read all this stuff. And they'll be very familiar with it. And they'll be familiar with court cases. That's not the people you have to sway. That's the problem. MC: Right. LB: The sway people who saw on YouTube something that doesn't, like, it's true. It's on the Internet. I actually had somebody say that to me in front of Planned Parenthood one time. They were protesting against Planned Parenthood. And they were trying to stop someone from going in. And they were saying Planned Parenthood is trying to make you have babies so they can kill the babies. So they give you birth control that doesn't work. And I said, "Where did you get that idea?" MC: What an insane idea. LB: How insane is that? And she said, "I know it's true because it's on the Internet." And I said, "This is not something I can argue with." I know it's true because it's in writing. You know, it doesn't mean anything. And I remember this person saying this. And then I started to walk away and then I realized why this person was saying this and she was saying this because she had somehow taken her birth control wrong, become pregnant, had to have an abortion and then felt guilty about it so she wanted someone to blame. So it was that kind of a thing. I sort of said, like I'm thinking why would somebody say this? And it doesn't really have anything. I think that there are a lot of people who are trying to justify their vote for Trump which has put the entire world in a terrible circumstance solely because he was elected. I mean, things would be totally different. Or be very different. MC: They'd be very different. We'd still have Coronavirus. We'd still be having to deal with that. But it would be very different. LB: We would've rapid testing. We would have had all sorts of leadership that explained things more clearly and that, well I didn't say you can inject your body with Clorox. You know. MC: Have you seen -- (laughs) I'm sure you have. You've seen the signs that [Amy Sinelli?] had made? The Biden, they're Biden signs but they don't say "Biden 2020." They say "Biden, we won't inject you with bleach." or something. LB: I actually think that's kind of a thing to say. Like I saw a meme that said, you know, it was a picture of Biden that said, "Let me read you parts of my platform." And at the bottom it said, "You had me at let me read." I mean, and really how can you justify the craziness of this circumstance. And so. But I do think that in some ways it has to be distilled into a much simpler message because people that are saying this kind of stuff, they still have to be inundated with stuff saying, "Well okay, this is not true. You're wrong, and here's why we know that" sound bite. You've got to spend a lot of time reading. You know. And they want to justify the fact that they have done this very foolish, unthoughtful thing. And what folks said were going to happen. Who would have even thought that it would have gone this far? MC: I never thought it wouldn't. LB: The economy's the worst it's ever been. You know, and you can't say, "Well, it's not his fault." How could you say that? Well of course it's his fault. He's the leader. It's not true in New Zealand. It's not the worst economy they've ever had. In fact their people are looking at them going, "Good job." You know. They're the leaders of the correct steps to take. MC: Well I'm just hoping -- I mean obviously I have my preferences, but whoever Biden announces as his running mate is fine. It's fine. Let's get you elected. LB: What I'm hoping for is that he announces that he has chosen everyone to be on his team. MC: Right. LB: Chosen, you know, has taken all those people that were a good group of people. MC: All of them are smart people. LB: All these smart people, and they're going to be the Secretary of State and they're going to be the Secretary of Education. Elizabeth Warren is the Secretary of Education. You know? If he doesn't pick Kamala Harris for vice president, then he picked her for attorney general. You know, to say that well everybody could say that I wanted this person, and now they're going to be part of that. Because under the Obama administration some of the best minds. A lot of the stuff that happened was because he picked these really smart people. And if we can appease all of the people on this side of the aisle by saying this is a guy who picks smart people and then listens to them. MC: Right. LB: Let's just do that. And he can say, "I'll keep Fauci." He's a perfectly good guy too. And I'll listen to him. I'm not going to tell him to say something else because I don't like it. MC: Even if he is more popular than I am. LB: No kidding. That's true. So yeah, and I have said. I publicly posted that I would crawl over glass to vote for Joe Biden. And certainly I thought there were other people who would have been much more fun to have as president. But who cares? I mean we need to live. MC: I was all about Elizabeth Warren. That's who I wanted. LB: Her too. But if she's in the administration, it would be a wonderful thing. Because we'll hear her all the time. You know, throw out Betsy DeVos and have Elizabeth Warren. How would that change our lives? You know, every moment of the reality of that and I hope that Joe Biden is smart enough to do that. And I hope the campaign and all of these people are willing to do that and have Bernie Sanders be somebody who is a major advisor, part of the cabinet, angrily disagreeing, fine, you know. Fine with that. He's not really my guy, but I'm fine with that. He's really good policy, and some people really within reason, a lot of his economic circumstances, you know what he's talking about is really important. And it's what we need. And people say, "I don't want this guy, he's too much of a communist." Well he's not going to be president. So he's not going to be vice president. So shut up. MC: Right. And so many don't understand what communist or socialist mean. Right, that's another one. It's another dog whistle. "Socialist." LB: If socialists get into the government, they might take away my social security. (laughter) MC: Yeah. Exactly. LB: But, anyway. MC: They might take away my health care. LB: I know. Oh God. So anyway. Yeah. MC: Back to the interview. LB: No, all these questions I think we're hitting on them anyway so I think that's kind of the thing. But talk a little bit about what you do, because you're coming into the next phase of the school year and so, the college year. So talk about what you do. And how that's been for you, because I know you had been, suddenly, had to to teach online. MC: Right. We had to very suddenly move from in-person teaching, classroom teaching to online platform. And like a lot of my colleagues, I'd never taught online before. I never had any interest in teaching online before I'm very much a -- I just work best face-to-face. I think with students. I'm, for whatever reason, I'm generally pretty good at establishing rapport. I get to know them all by name and a little bit about them just through casual conversations as people are coming in and out of class. I tend to have a good record I think when it comes to class participation. Lots of students participate even in large lecture classes. Cause over the years I've developed certain skills that help set that tone. I don't think it's any special thing I was born with or whatever but I've developed skills. Sorry? LB: You learned how to do it. MC: Exactly. And being in the classroom face-to-face with students plays to my skill set. Being online doesn't. And we had to make this transition very quickly. We had a week off for spring break and then spring break was extended by a week. So we had two weeks basically to get everything organized. And I did and there were some difficult decisions to make. One of the decisions I made was to make everything asynchronous because I really didn't have confidence in -- I just felt too uncertain about whether my students would have time-specific access to the Internet, etc. ESU, I had a lot of. And also maybe sociology I think is a subject -- I have a lot of not just racial and ethnic diversity in my classes but I have a lot of socioeconomic diversity in my classes. So having students who are going to be at home with limited access, uncertain broadband capacity, all that. I thought the only way for me to do this is to go asynchronous. Put everything up there for people to do it as they're able. And then have discussion boards again that people could kind of, as they were able depending on what their resources were. And it worked. I think largely because students were patient with me because they already had rapport. So they were patient with me as I, I'm not a very tech-savvy person. So as I was learning the software it was a steep learning curve. I put something up and they couldn't access it and I had to figure out why they couldn't access it. But they were patient with me about it and good-humored basically about it. As I speeded by on the seat of my pants basically. But starting in the fall, starting out online it's not going to be the same situation. I don't have rapport with those students already. Now my skills are more developed in the war. I took an online course, not my course that I'm teaching online. But it was on mechanics. It was not about, how do you establish, really establish rapport. Connect with -- Because nobody knows that. Sorry? LB: You'll be able to do it. MC: I'll try. LB: You'll be able. I mean, you will. MC: Well, I'll figure it out and I'll make changes as I go. And I'll have it set up to go, but I'm sure I'll be making changes as I go, as I figure out well this isn't working. I need to. LB: Has ESU announced that they will not be opening? MC: Yeah. They're full online this fall with the exception of certain kinds of certain kinds of courses that are kind of practically based and things like athletic training or, you know, nursing or something where they have to do something. But otherwise, we're all online. So I'm hoping for a hybrid, and I'd already come up with some ideas about how I could do that. How I could meet with sort of subsets of students at different times, put other things online to be done asynchronously. I had sort of thought all that through. I mean I hadn't created the actual lesson plans and syllabi yet, but I had thought the dynamics of making a hybrid model work. And then they said we're solely going online. So. It is what it is. LB: Well, yeah. I actually think that all of the colleges will be that way. There are colleges -- MC: Moravian has not declared that yet. LB: It's ridiculous that they haven't. MC: Oh I know. LB: Because it's making every -- MC: Sandy at this point is expected to in the classroom still. I mean she's expecting it will probably change, but as of now she will be expecting to be in the classroom. LB: Well I talked to a number of people who have been working at various different colleges all over the country. I have a friend in Illinois who is, you know, the administration, this is at Illinois Wesleyan. The administration said, "Well, we're going to be opening." And the faculty said, "Yeah, no." Because they really have a high level of danger. Let me put it that way. And what the faculty came back with was, the faculty alliance said, "It's unethical to do it. It's unethical to do it to us and it's unethical to do it to the students. And if it's a financial problem, well, we'll have to work it out. But right now we can't put people at risk because we don't know what's going to happen. It would be different if everybody had their masks on." MC: Right, and one of the things. When ESU was still planning to go with the hybrid model. Yeah, we had all these Zoom meetings with administrators and they showed us how they were going to be setting up the classrooms with their new COVID Capacities and all this over stuff. And they were going to be issuing ESU logo facemasks to everyone to all the students. We were told we had permission to tell a student they couldn't enter class without a face mask. So much about what we were supposed to do when the student says, "I've paid for this class. I'm coming in whether you are forbidding me too or not." Those kinds of things weren't so well worked out. But the reality is that even if we could achieve the social distanced classroom, even if we could do that, and I have one class that's an upper level seminar basically, and all I have is ten students. We could do that. We could have a social distanced classroom. But, you can't have, you're going to be able to have students doing social distancing in the dorms. Or in the frat houses. Things like that. I mean, so yeah, we believe it's the only responsible decision to make and I'm glad they made it. LB: Well Roberta Meek is one of the interviews I did, and she's at Muhlenberg, and she said, "How do we tell students to not act the way they expected to be able to act when they came to college?" I mean, it's about interaction. It's about sharing space. It's about you know conversations. It's about living in a new space with new people who are completely different than what you've ever been with before. And, she said no matter what we say, we tell people not to drink in the dorm rooms. MC: That's effective. (laughter) LB: We tell people, you know, they have to do certain things and we can't control these, you know, they're adults and they do all sorts of different things that you're really not supposed to do. And all it has to be is one person, and then you have to send them home. So, in our greater, our extended family, we had a group of people who are another family that their daughter came home from college and she was perfectly fine. They sent her home. It was, the college is in New York State, and they sent everybody home. It was time for them to go home. And a few days later, she spiked. And this is somebody very close to us. Who's like, the temperature and infected everyone in the family. Including the ninety-two-year-old grandmother. And some of them, quite a few people, some of them got very sick. Two of them had to go in the hospital. Had they not had certain kinds of ins with the medical community, they would have died. There's no question. What does that do to a college student, too? Somebody said to me, "How is this person?" And well, doesn't injure her, she'd be okay. She recovered. And everybody. They recovered. But it was awful. It was just horrible. MC: Yeah, just imagine the guilt. LB: Oh gosh. Can you imagine? Can you imagine? And if that happens with this kid. Because she didn't know she was sick. She didn't do anything like go to spring break or anything like that. She came home from college. She didn't know anybody that was sick. So clearly there were other people that were going to other places that were infecting other people too. MC: And we just can't know. There's just. And one of the downsides, I think, of, and again let me just preface this or just reiterate, that I think it's the only responsible decision to make. To put our curriculum online. But I worry about the young people. I worry about the queer people should be at home with families that are not supportive or who are in some cases not just unsupportive. Not just the absence of -- LB: That risk. MC: But the presence of antagonism. LB: There, something like that circumstance. And that person is seeking out an ability to stay at the college even though they won't take, a college in the community, well a lot of colleges in the community. And some colleges have large numbers of people on campus. I think Muhlenberg is one hundred kids on campus who can't go home. They just can't go home for whatever reason. There's no home. There's too much illness there. There's, they won't be accepted there because they're queer or something like that. And that's a responsibility of the college too. So. MC: We're at ESU I haven't heard of any specific cases. None of the students that I work with are experiencing that that they've shared with me. I know that Sandy has a student who's in that situation from Moravian. And they just, you know they check in intermittently. Just report. Our dean of students, who you probably know. Gene Kelly. LB: Sure. MC: Gene Kelly. He was officially named dean of students probably about January or so, and he's a -- LB: Yeah, I've known Gene for years. MC: Yeah. And so, he's obviously, if there are students in that situation, he's probably in charge of making decisions about who's allowed to stay in the dorms. So I feel like a student if a queer student in that situation were to appeal to him, to be allowed to stay in the dorm. At least that student would have a very sympathetic ear. LB: Yeah. And actually Robin Casey who is the diversity or one or I guess the head of diversity of that kind of level diversity at Muhlenberg, I interviewed her too. And she was saying that it's actually pretty comfortable because you get the pick of the dorms. You don't have to stay in the crappy dorms. They get their own place and they each get their own restroom. But pretty much all the classes, they just stay in their room. There's no food service. So they can pick up, but they're paying for that or their loans are going for that or something. But yeah, all summer they've had about one hundred students on campus. Hundred students on campus and some of them were in some programs that they sort of had to be there but, for the most part, it's the way you're describing it. Internships and that kind of stuff. But it's really complicated. And yet, you know, there's no alternative right now. We just have to stop hanging out with each other for a while. We just have to do it. And it's terrible for people that age. It's terrible for people my age, or particularly people Trisha's age. Because she lives with us and she thinks, "I don't have that many years left to just waste waiting until it's better. And let's hope it's not another four years that we have to wait." MC: On no. I can't even wrap my head around that. LB: I know. It's so depressing. But anyway. So, I think we covered everything. Let's see. MC: There was one other thing that I wanted to mention. LB: Okay, do MC: But if you want to look over your list and see if there's anything. LB: No, I think we're hitting everything. Say whatever you want. MC: Okay. One upside of all of this isolation and especially when Sandy and I were both gone and I had literally no responsibilities other than to survive. Because I wasn't teaching summer school or anything. One of the upsides that normally I don't watch very much television. Very, very little. I had so much time on my hands that I watched so much Netflix. We only have Netflix and Amazon Prime. LB: Yeah. We do too. That's all we have. MC: Okay. So, and I caught up on a lot of my Queer TV. Seriously. I watched all six seasons of How to Get Away with Murder. Have you watched that? LB: We saw the beginning episodes. MC: That is a perfect television show. Start to finish. All six seasons. LB: I didn't care for it. Because I felt in the first season, we watched it because Anita Lee, who is the, who was the head of PFLAG in the East Stroudsburg area, her son Justin Lee was a writer on that show, so watched the show, and he was gone (inaudible) and everything. And you know great acting and it's really interesting and the dialogue's great. But I thought, "I don't like any character in this show." And -- MC: Six seasons later, you still won't like any character. LB: And I can't do that. (inaudible) MC: Complicated. And you don't know who to trust. LB: And, so desperate for that, you know, This is Miss Marple. And the bad guy who gets killed is bad anyway. I'm so -- MC: And Viola Davis is amazing. And her... LB: She is. MC: And especially the last couple of seasons when she's completely falling apart. (inaudible) Her mother I seriously -- that is, as far as like a television viewing experience where you never really know what's going to happen, you're on the edge of your seat. You never know who to trust. All that. It's a perfect six seasons. I loved it. And the ending is perfect. Anyway. But I also, I got, I also watched (inaudible) I watched... Now of course I'm going to blank on everything. One of those short-term free memberships so I could watch -- Have you seen it? LB: No, I haven't seen it. MC: Get one of the seven-day free trials. Then you again. There's Vida. It's terrific. It's so good. I watched Gente-fied one of the like, it's an ensemble kind of cast. But one of the story lines is queer. One of the main characters. LB: Is that on STARZ? MC: Sorry? LB: STARZ, or is it on -- MC: No, that's on Netflix. Gente-fied is on Netflix. LB: I haven't seen that. MC: These are both Latinx focused shows which there are a lot of on TV. So I don't know if they're really got but I watched Atypical. That has a -- There's kind of exploring her sexuality, identity, like that. I can't even remember things that I've watched. LB: Did you watch One Day at a Time? MC: I have not seen the last season because it's not on Netflix yet. But, yeah. Schitt's Creek. LB: Schitt's Creek. Yeah we watch that. MC: I haven't seen the last season of that either, because it's not on there. It's just, there's so much good TV than there ever used to be. Even on, there's a short series that's four episodes or something on Netflix called Unorthodox. LB: Oh yeah. Adrian was talking. I've seen that. I've seen some. MC: It's really good. And even that has a queer element to it. I mean my goodness. When we were young people, you know. LB: I know. MC: I mean Personal Best was the first movie I ever saw. LB: Me too. MC: Right. You know, and you go on looking for things and found things like, The Killing of Sister George. LB: Yeah. Or, you know. I always say this. The first movie I saw when I was a kid, when was growing up in Connecticut. I could watch the million-dollar movie and they show the same movie every day for a week in the afternoon. If you were like sick and home from school you just like kept watching this movie and it was The Children's Hour. And Shirley MacLaine is in this and she plays the gay character who turns out to be gay. They're accused of being gay. Of course Audrey Hepburn was in it too. And at the end she confesses that she really is a lesbian and that she's interested in Audrey Hepburn and then she kills herself. But reality is, and I talk about this all the time, I said when I saw that I went, and I watched it every single day. And I absolutely have continued to fantasize about Shirley MacLaine ever since. I watched every single movie she was in. I saw every television show she was in. I just thought this, there was even. And I even said this about, The Miracle Worker where the incredibly hot Anne Bancroft is talking about how when she was in the orphanage, you know, women who went after young girls, and I'm like, yeah? Like that was my tune-in to that. That that was so exciting that I could just hear somebody talking about queer people. MC: I don't remember ever hearing anything on TV when I was growing up. But, we did have Family, so we had Kristy McNichol. LB: "Family." That's true. MC: Kristy McNichol when I was in high school. So there was that. (inaudible) LB: That's true. Although, yeah, I know. And there was like the oldest daughter on Eight is Enough. MC: Right. LB: And everybody. When you get older, one of the things. You probably know. [Sandy Fluck?] who was the head of the education department. MC: Oh, yeah. LB: So she's [Beth?] (inaudible) really great friends of ours for many years. They live in Rehoboth now. Sandy was talking about how when she first saw the movie, this is a dyke thing, when she first saw The Trouble with Angels the movie The Trouble with Angels, she wanted to be a nun. And universally, if you ask lesbians of that age, and Sandy's a little older than I am. So she's about seventy now. If you ask people who of that age if that affected them that way. Some of them just became lesbians. Even the Jewish lesbians? MC: Yes. LB: I mean Sandy was a Christian Scientist. She was as far from Catholic. But it was just this whole thing of like, these women who were kind of hot and fun and they were having a great time. MC: A good time, yeah. LB: And there's no men there. And they treat men like crap when they push them around. And Ros Russell is so brilliant in that part. And she's got that tough, big shoulder broad even in the nun's habit deal. So that had that enormous. And the same The Sound of Music. The nun part of The Sound of Music The nun part of The Sound of Music. I mean really, really impacted. MC: Didn't happen for me. LB: No, I mean to see that there were these communities of women that were self-governed and tough. And that girls could go into these communities of women, and then stay there. Cause that's what happens for them. And even the fact that The Trouble with Angels, which kind of a kitschier thing, Ros Russell was, that was the remake of it. Part of it was shot in Allentown. MC: Oh really? LB: It was at Dorney Park. Yeah at Dorney Park. But that was, I was all fascinated by that because there's a part where the nun says that it's really hot. And it's Stella Stevens actually. And she pulls up her habit to expose her leg because she's so hot. And I just thought. This is so exciting. And just like the tiny little kernel of excitement there. MC: Do you remember the first time you saw All About Eve. The heat between the two of them. My God. LB: That was a lesbian thing at the end. In the last scene. The other woman comes in. That's actually in Vito Russo's Celluloid Closet in his book where he talks... MC: It's been so long since I've read it. I don't even remember. LB: Book's totally different from the documentary in a lot of ways. So it's so fascinating. No I mean. You know, all of that stuff. Any time there was that kind of a scene I was like. MC: Well my obsession when I could. When I was in like high school. And yeah, I wasn't out yet. Anything that was set in a women's prison. So, I'm living in New Jersey. This is in the seventies and the PBS station would show an episode of Prisoner: Cell Block H. An Australian series. I was like, I watched it religiously. Not even knowing what compelled me. LB: Are you Voyager fan? Star Trek: Voyager. You just need to watch that. Because it's run by women. And there's this huge subtext of this lesbian relationship in the second half of the series that they would writing to. And there's an enormous amount of fan fiction between the captain and this other character played by Jeri Ryan, which you know. People still, cause that's been playing in other countries now. And when Kate Mulgrew. Kate Mulgrew was of course also in Orange is the New Black. She was Red in Orange is the New Black. She will still do Star Trek conventions and she'll go to like England or something and she'll go into a room and they're be like a thousand people in there and every one of them is a lesbian. The one time I heard her, the actress says, "Is there anyone is this room who isn't gay?" And like one guy. But she says, and these women are coming up and asking questions and stuff. What about the writing between you and Seven of Nine. And she says, "Well, that was the best writing. It was really good writing." MC: I've heard of Seven of Nine. I've heard of that character. LB: Yeah, so she's the character. At one point, this woman gets up and she's wearing a T-shirt, of course they've all got these sort of Geordie accents and they're all all this stuff. And cause they just started to show that a couple years ago in England all the time. Or in the UK. And she looks at this woman's T-shirt and she says, "So, I go commando. What does that mean?" And the woman at the podium says, "I'll show you in a little while." And the room erupts with hysterical laughter. It goes on and on. It's just like that. And I think like -- So I ended up writing a couple of books and one of them has a character in it, one of the love interest characters is fashioned after Kate Mulgrew as the person in Voyager. Although it's nothing like her. I just thought that's a good person to fashion this character after. And then she, Kate Mulgrew, wrote an autobiography and she did a reading in Philadelphia at the library in Philadelphia. At the end, you can have her sign the book. And I gave her one of the books that I wrote that she's the character. I have a picture of her in my office touching the book. MC: Cool. LB: I said, Trish, I really like it that you've indulged this fantasy for me. So, it was pretty funny. But I think that there's a lot of interesting stuff. One of the things about Voyager was it was produced in the Clinton era. And so it's a much gentler show. And so was The Next Generation. Both of those were. And then there was a later show produced in the more negative era that was much more, that was in the Bush era, that was much more aggressive and fighting and blowing people up. But the Voyager has got scenes in it where you just go, "Whoa!" MC: I'm going to have to check it out. LB: The second half, so I think there's seven seasons and it starts at the end of the third season of the new character. There's, Scott Thompson is in it. One of the episodes. It's very very funny. And it's not queer enough, but it has this woman captain. And they ran the whole series. They didn't say that they were tired of her. They really didn't. It's worth it. It's worth watching. Plus it's something else. MC: We're going to not be going out for a while. So any more things to watch. LB: I know, I would totally run out of stuff. But I told you about QI. Have you watched QI? MC: I have not watched. No, I haven't. LB: Watch an episode. But only the ones with Sandi Toksvig because she's a lesbian and she'll say it over and over again. Somebody'll make a joke and she'll say, some penis joke, and she'll say, "I have no experience with that." And people will laugh. MC: That's how I teach. I do that in the lecture all the time. LB: I do too. I'll say, "I don't really understand this, but some people say." So, yeah. That's kind of the deal. Well, it's been a while. Let's see if I hit everything. So. So I don't have to ask you if you aren't out at home. You haven't been laid off. MC: Only to my family. LB: That's true. And so what's your biggest frustration during all this stuff. Asking everybody that. MC: Frustration. Well I think the hardest thing is the isolation, honestly. I don't find it frustrating, although I find it. I think it's sad sometimes. I get sad that I'm not able to spend time with, you know, I have a very. I mean, my family aside, my support network of friends is very strong, and group of about five of us who get together regularly. It hurts. I feel sad that we can only do things by Zoom. That's the thing that's hardest. But I think the thing that's most frustrating is the stuff I read where people are denying the science. And attacking people who are wearing masks or people posting signs, "No masks allowed in this store" or whatever. Things like that. Or when I am out, I mean most people are doing fine. But there are those people who are, if they're wearing a mask, they're wearing it incorrectly. Their nose is out, or things like that. It's on their chin. But that is what's most frustrating because that is what is going to prolong the situation of isolation that makes me sad. So, I think that's it. LB: Universally, that's what every single person that I've interviewed has said. That people are not taking this seriously and they're not doing. You know Gary and Steve, they were my last interview and they said we're doing everything right, but because people aren't doing things right we still have to stay inside. We still have to have all the same job worries and all this stuff because other people. You know to not have the leadership to convince people to do the right thing. Which is really the job of the leader of the country to do those things. People like Franklin Roosevelt could talk people into doing the right thing. You know we could have, make people comfortable. And then make people understand. You have to do this. MC: Imagine. Think about World War II and all the rationing that they were doing. Like, if people won't wear a fucking mask now. Like how -- LB: So the level of frustration is astounding. And I've talked to everybody about, I mean we've talked a little bit about Black Lives Matter. That's one of the things. MC: That's one of my frustrations actually. Sorry for cutting you off. LB: No, that's exactly right. MC: Because of my anxiety about this and not, they're not unfounded these days, you know I am someone who typically attends protests and rallies and marches. That's where I run into you generally, at these things. Right? LB: Right. MC: And when George Floyd was killed and we started organizing rallies I felt unsafe going to them. And so I didn't. You know, Kai, great kid. She's very plugged in to politics and everything. Arguing with all of her friends over social media about things like Black Lives Matter. Things like income inequality. All those kinds of things. I'd like to take a little credit for some of that. But, anyway. She and I at one point we were like, because she likes to do that too. She likes to be present. She likes to show up. And we were like, "We want to go but we're not going to go." And that's very hard. I mean, I've been doing other things. Giving money. Doing the things I can do at a distance. But it's been very hard not to participate actively. LB: Everybody I know over fifty has said that. Everybody that I've interviewed. I mean, in interviewing people who have said. Blaise and Alanna who were saying, you know, "We've been marching since the sixties." And to not be able to do this. And when the stuff happened in Allentown, Adrian actually texted me right from the first march, which was and he texted me. It was late at night. And then the next day, they had another march and I said to Trish, "You know. This is right outside our house. It's like three blocks away." And I said, "I think I need to go to this." And she said, "Really?" I mean, I'm at enough risk. But she's really really at risk. She has lupus. She has lung issues. Stuff like that. So I said, "Let me look at the thing." And I looked at a video of the first march, so it was one. And the next night they had another march. And I was thinking about going the second night. And on the first night there's all these young people. And they're walking along. They all have masks on. And then I saw three people who were part of the group who didn't have masks on. And they're all there. And they're chatting, and they're shouting. And I'm thinking, "I know this is what, I mean I've done this. And I know that this is a risk. And I can't take this risk. I have to --" MC: It's so hard. LB: It is. MC: You know. Cause it's. I just, yeah. LB: I can tell you this. I will risk my life to vote. MC: Oh, hell yes. Have you voted in the primary? I voted by mail. LB: Yeah. And we just signed up to vote by mail too. But if there is any possibility not, I will stand in line. I will. And I absolutely will do that. I will, but I'm not going to. That's it. And I think everybody feels that way who recognizes how it important it is. This is. So, yeah that's a good thing. Well, this is the last part. So what gives you hope now? Cause we need to end on a happy little note. And I would guess that part of it is that you have a wonderful daughter. MC: Well, what I was going to say is that it's the young people. And she is one of them. She has lost a lot. She lost the last quarter of her eighth grade year. You know, she lost her spring field hockey season and all of her summer camps. She's very into field hockey camps. She does multiple camps in the summer. She's lost all of that. It's uncertain whether she's going to be going to school. I mean, right now yes. But. You know, she's had so little. I know. She's had a couple of contacts with friends where they've done the social distance walk with the masks on. But, you know, she's lost a lot. And still, she cares about the future. She's not wallowing in this moment of loss forever. And when you talk about. When I see people out who aren't wearing masks, it is largely people who are old enough to know better. At least at the supermarket. Or at Lowe's. It's people in their thirties. Or forties. So it's the young people. It really is the young people. LB: And they're the ones that are doing these really great marches. I mean they're really speaking out about this. MC: Yes. They're feeling empowered. And, God, please all of them who are able to, go out to vote. That's the thing. I feel like they're dealing with all this a lot better than some of their parents are. LB: Well, one of the things when I interviewed somebody who was 22 and had just graduated from Moravian. And he was saying that -- I mean, he was very calm and he was concerned about this. And he said the same thing. He was frustrated with people who don't believe this. But he also was inherently calm. And one of the reasons he was calm was that he has his whole life in front of him. He doesn't have to think he's sucking up the last. You know like this is my last chance. I mean things will work out. Things will be okay. This person is being very careful. They're probably not going to get the disease. Because they're being very, very careful. They're not going to make that happen to themselves. MC: And that's another thing. The smart. Okay. This is going to sound terrible, probably. I don't know if I should say it. You know, it's being recorded. LB: Go ahead. Say it. MC: You know. Survival of the fittest doesn't mean survival of the physically strongest necessarily. It means survival of the most adaptable. LB: Right. MC: That's what it is really. And is this situation, adapting means wearing your mask and using social distancing and minimizing your risks. And that seems to be. It seems to be what most of the smartest people are doing. LB: Except for the people in my family that got sick. They were absolutely in their own household. MC: Right, exactly. But what I'm saying is it seems like if you look at the states that have really not handled this way. And where they rank educationally and all those kinds of things. While I'm not saying this is an absolute. You know, as you were saying your family, for example. Things we don't know. But it seems like those who are attracting the most risks to themselves. You know who are flagrantly doing that aren't the sharpest tools in the shed. LB: No, I think that's really true. MC: And that gives me hope for the future. LB: I mean, it does because. You don't want to say something mean about them, but this is one of the realities is that it's a socioeconomic situation too. And so one of the people that I interviewed was saying that their daughter has a congenital heart problem. But her job is that she's seen as an essential worker. She's a waitress. I mean she's a layperson. Like that's an essential worker. And this person who is working in Northampton County is working at a restaurant where they're not following the protocols that they're supposed to be, and she has complained that she has a very high risk. And they said, if you have a problem just don't come in and we'll consider it your resignation, which means they won't pay her unemployment. And so, you know, for those of us who can do -- MC: You're right. You're right. I guess I'm being a little flip there. But, you're absolutely right in what you're saying. LB: I think that there's a reality to -- MC: I realize that I've got a lot of privilege when I say that. LB: I know. And the unfortunate is that even with the flu. I like to talk about this all the time because I'm obsessed with the flu epidemic of 1918 and that has to do with the fact that my area of expertise with regard to art history is around that time. In that section of the and how it affected people and it also affected me directly because my grandmother died in that flu epidemic. She was 32 years old when my father was four. And so it affected my life because my Dad grew up without a mother. I didn't have two grandmothers. That kind of stuff. But the most significant thing about that flu epidemic was. Well, there's several things -- one hundred million, fifty to one hundred million people died of that flu. One in three people of the world had it. But the most significant reasons for that we were at war. Everybody was at war. And they all didn't want to talk about the fact that their country was having casualties from an illness. So there was actually sedition laws that you couldn't talk about the flu epidemic in 1918. MC: Really? I wasn't aware of that. LB: And that's why it's called the Spanish Flu. Because Spain was the only country that was not in World War I. They were neutral. And so they were reporting on all of the stuff that was happening. All these people were dying in Spain because they were dying anywhere. So it was the headlines of the newspaper, but they wouldn't talk about it in England or Germany or the US. Because they didn't want to tell anybody that we were all sick. It all happened in 1918. And interestingly, it was about a fifteen-month period and it was much more serious than this. For one thing, it struck people between the ages of 20 to 40. That was the primary thing. People would die in one day. And they'd show symptoms in the morning and die at the end of the day. And you know, one month in New York City twenty-three thousand people died. And people in Allentown. There was a huge number of people in Allentown, huge number of people in Easton. But Bethlehem actually quarantined so they didn't have as many cases. They had hundreds of cases instead of thousands of cases. But nobody was allowed to talk about it, so there's not a lot of information about it. That's one of the reasons that we really. So, there was a herd immunity there because so many people had it. Hilda Doolittle had it, among other things. She almost died from it. That's how she met Bryher, the lesbian that she stayed with for the rest of her life. She came and took care of her. Also, women who were pregnant were much more likely to get it and seventy-two percent of the women who were pregnant who got it died. So I think my grandmother was pregnant. And Hilda Doolittle was pregnant. She had a miscarriage and she was so sick. She was rich, but she was really really sick. It was during World War II, or World War I. And Bryher came and said, "You're really sick. I need to take you some place and make you health." Bryher was the richest woman in the UK at the time. And took her away to an island where they could quarantine so that she could get better and she did. But, it was a terrible terrible illness. And yet we weren't allowed to talk about it. And that's kind of the way this is now. You know, we won't have as many cases if we just stop testing people. So same mentality one hundred years later. MC: I wonder if, so I'm sure you've heard that Herman Cain died. LB: Yeah. I just read that. MC: And I wonder if that will catch the attention of some people. Like, well maybe this is real. You know, one of ours died. LB: Who was infected by Trump. I mean he was in Tulsa. MC: I know. But if, in addition to him, if one or two other sort of high-profile Republicans were to die, maybe. I could make suggestions if you want, but you know. LB: What I was going to say was, some people, Trish is a medical professional and she said. Until people know people who have been sick and died. MC: I'm sorry I didn't get that. LB: Until people know people who have been sick and died, they're just acting like it's not happening. Because they don't know anybody who has been sick or who has died. Particularly who has died. And so, a crazy guy. A repair guy came to one of the people that I was interviewing's house and he said, "You know, this is all a plot by Hillary to make people get sick so that would collapse --" Like Hillary would do this now. To collapse the economy so that Trump won't win. And this person said, "Yeah, well. Okay." You know, and he said to him, "You don't know anybody's who's been sick, do you?" And you goes, well, "I don't know anybody personal. I know some people who have been sick but not in my personal circle who has been sick." So see, nobody really has it. Well, they're going to wait until people really have it. You know, it's not enough to have five hundred people die in Allentown. It has to be five hundred people in your own circle. People die. So that in the really high. And with the flu epidemic of 1918, it was the same situation. There was a lot of deaths, then it sort of ended. It didn't go. Then there was this second wave that was just horrible. It was exactly the same configuration of the year that was just, where people would get like on a subway car. Coney Island. By the time they get off they collapsed and died. You know, just happened when they were in areas like that. Just happened so easily. And so maybe that is not going to be the -- Some people are thinking that's not going to be the case. It's not the same kind of thing. Some people are saying that little kids are less likely to get it. But as my friend who's a pediatrician said, you know, she said I'm getting a lot of people saying, do you think I can go ahead and send my kid to daycare? And she said, so when you send your kids to daycare, do they ever get sick from any of the other kids there? They get everything there. If you do it, they will get it. They're going to get sick. Or they're going to get exposed. And then they're going to have it. Maybe they won't get really sick, but you'll have to look around your circle of family and friends and see if there's anybody there that's really going to be at risk. So a lot of the people who I have interviewed who have been older have said that was the thing that really bothered them because they couldn't really see their grandkids because they're the ones at risk. And they don't want to do that to their grandkids. It's really. MC: That's got to be really hard. LB: Yeah, I talked to, I interviewed one guy who said his father was intubated for two weeks and was very close. You know, had he not been intubated. He was in the hospital with intubation for two weeks. It's so horrible to have that too. And people who I know who have had it. It's so awful that it's like a PTSD thing. I wanted to interview some people that have been sick and they couldn't talk about it, it was so awful. People don't understand how awful it is. It's really. If you get it bad, it's really not like anything else. It's not just having the flu. MC: It's not just like the sniffles. LB: No. It's really not like even like having a bad flu. It's like having -- So I have a very close friend who had it and she said. You know, she had a one hundred three temperature for two weeks. She said she woke up every morning saying to herself, okay, today I just have to not die. And she said, if I have to go to the bathroom, I had to crawl there. I couldn't walk. And she luckily had other people around who finally took her to the hospital. She was in contact with people and she said, you need to, it's too many days for you to have this high temperature. And she went into the hospital and then they did a bunch of stuff to her and she got better. But, she's still suffering from that, and other people that we know are still having symptoms of it. One person that I talked to said after months they had a close family member that had it. And after a month they were still just, couldn't do anything it was so. So I think that people don't understand how serious it is. And unfortunately, people may have to know somebody before they'll take this seriously. And there are some media problems with it too. I don't think the media is making it clear enough to people. Although, what, you know. I mean, if you tell somebody that one hundred fifty thousand people in America have died, and they say, "Yeah, but it's all a hoax." How do you fix that? I mean -- MC: I don't know. I don't know that you can. LB: Yeah. MC: Maybe like I said, maybe some high profile people die. LB: Sure. MC: And, not just high profile people. But, high profile anti-mask people. LB: Or deniers of it. Yeah. No certainly an example of that. MC: Maybe that will shake people out of their complacency. LB: Well, it's pretty hard to say, oh this is my group is people. You don't have to do masks. Don't do that standing behind me. Then they find out that there's a contamination there. An infection. And then one of the ten people that's sitting there dies. I mean, how do you? You know, it's blinders. MC: Oh yeah. LB: It's so hard. I don't know. And it's hard to know really how -- I mean, do you get students in classes who will sometimes say things to you like, how could you possibly think that was true? MC: Oh yeah. Yeah. I just have to stop myself from laughing usually. Like, really, you think this? LB: Do you want say like, could you write a paper about that? I want you to research that and bring me some real citations that aren't just from some crazy. MC: Yeah and it's -- But the thing is that, I don't know. I thought with my students that if I say something like, "I get how you might think that's how it is, but here's some other information. And I think that you should just think about that. I generally don't tell them that they're wrong. But, I just try to say here's some other information that's verifiable. You can go and check it out if you want to. I just give them something to think about. And I just leave it with them. Because, what are you going to do, right? LB: There's a woman who posts a lot of very very interesting particularly feminist thing. Lesbian things on the Internet for a long time. And I have quite a relationship with her and I was working with her on some projects and stuff. And she started to post stuff that was particularly TERFy. It was just really, really major TERF stuff. And she posted some -- MC: Oh man you started. LB: And she posted a thing that said that ten thousand people in the UK who had transitioned through this one clinic were detransitioning. And I looked it up. I actually know this person. She's a famous playwright in the lesbian community. And I looked it up. And she said, "Well, this is the information." And I was -- this was a Facebook exchange. And I said, "I looked this up, and this is absolutely not true. You're retweeting something. If you read the article, that's not even what the article says. And if you read it, that's not what it says. She says, "Well it's in the Guardian." And I said, "No it isn't. You didn't even read the article. What it says is that tens of thousands of people went to this clinic in the UK because it's the only national health clinic that does transgender surgery for free, in effect, for the national health. That if you live in Wales you have to go to that clinic. You have to travel a long way, but you get free really good health care and you get free transition surgery. It doesn't say anything detransitioning. It doesn't say anything about that at all." And she said, "But I know people who detransitioned." I said, "But you posted something that's absolutely not true, and you can't do that. You can't put this thing up and cause divisiveness between our community. And then with phony information." I said, "I can't pretend this doesn't matter to me." MC: Good on you. LB: Even though I really, I had a lot of admiration for this person. I was beginning to think, you know, where are you getting this? Well I researched. But, that's not what you posted. You posted something that wasn't true. So, anyway. Yeah, that's not what we need right now either. MC: No it is not. LB: It's really hard because you hear about all these crazies all the time. And it's very depressing. And it's hard for any of us to say, "I think Joe Biden is going to win." Because we already got kicked in the head four years ago when we really thought Hillary was going to win. And so none of us is complacent or comfortable. We're just too on edge. MC: It's probably the single greatest source of anxiety that I have. LB: No kidding. MC: That it will be stolen. That it will be. You know. LB: Yeah. And I sent a message to somebody who was here and he's moved to Lisbon, Portugal. And I needed to tell him about something, and he said, "You sent this to me at two o'clock in the morning. You're up in the middle of the night." And I said, "Yeah, I haven't slept since the election. Since the last presidential election. Actually six months before that. And I guess one of the frustrations and angers I have is I don't know how, if I'm ever going to feel not this way. Even if things go better. I'm never going to feel the way I felt during the Obama administration again. Cause I'm just too aware of the stupidity and. That's another thing too. I just don't think like and I know other people that said that they've developed a level of agoraphobia. MC: Whataphobia? LB: Agoraphobia. They just don't feel comfortable going out. And you know, Adrian has talked about opening the center. And immediately I'm going like I'm going to -- I just said. And I said I'm not going to do it. And I just said it's a long way off. Don't worry about it now. And I think that's a good thing for him to say. MC: I think you're right. I think it's going to be hard to venture back in the world again. They're going to be a lot of baby steps involved. LB: And yet they did it after the flu epidemic of 1918. And you don't really hear about that. I mean it was. But that was one of the reasons why the roaring twenties was as roaring as they were. There was a lot of reasons for that. That was another reason. A lot of people, they did quarantine. And there were parts, like people would go to Philadelphia there was no one on the street. Middle of the day. And was a ghost town. So I don't know. There's going to be. It will be interesting to see. MC: I'm sorry. LB: I want you to say whatever you want to say, go ahead. MC: This hour-long interview's been two hours. LB: One hour and forty-one minutes. MC: It's fine with me. The one thing that gives me hope is to watch the political news pretty closely and seeing, you know, people like Ritchie Torres, you know, winning his -- I don't think it's been officially declared yet, but it's a done deal. You know. Jamaal Bowman winning his primary. Mondaire Jones. Of course, AOC. Seeing again it's the young people, you know, who are just giving me hope. They're giving me more, more. It's going to be a slow process. But I'm thinking about what's happening now in the Trump administration. I don't even like saying his name to be perfectly honest. It makes me throw up a little in my mouth. But I hope, I tell myself that we're watching the death throes of white unrepentant white supremacy. Unrepentant male supremacy. That it's in its death throes now and this is its sort of last surge of. I'm telling myself that. I need to believe that. And I take a lot of hope from seeing. I was just saying, you saw the folks, you're seeing Katie Porter taking people down. You know, she's a bad ass. I mean, just there are more and more people that are entering positions of power who can make a difference. I got to take hope from that. LB: Good. Yeah. Well, that's the secret. At Muhlenberg when Adrian was a student at Muhlenberg and it was the Obama election, there was I often I give this dynamic people and reasons to do things and she has say, has been about forty-five kids and then forty-five college students and when Adrian was there it was seven hundred college students. And then when they left it was forty-five again. And he organized for those students to go vote. And I really think that Obama's win was because of students, of college students. Which I don't think Hillary Clinton ignite at all. MC: Nor is Joe Biden, and I hope that whoever he -- LB: But I think that other things are igniting college students now. MC: True. LB: And I think that's one of the things. I mean sometimes you have to look at the other side and say, okay, there is a difference. And people are all saying that. So that if Joe Biden says, and he is saying publicly the financial circumstances of taking care of students, student college loans, which of course is not coming out of the Trump administration. But, to be able to compare those things and that students need to say, okay, this is how we can engage in this group. We cannot engage this group. And so, if these people are running the government, we can demand change. We can't demand any change. Trump, we can demand it but nothing's going to happen. And so I think the young people that are, I'm hoping that people. And the reason is we're seeing this happen in elections that people are standing in line for eight hours at risk for COVID but they're still doing it just to be able to vote in a primary when they've never done that before. Well that's a big deal. You know, that's a lot of numbers here. I just read, and I don't know if this is true, that a million people, a million Democrats have registered to vote by mail in Florida. Well, that's a lot of people already to be doing. And that's a very significant thing. So that's what I want. We just got money to encourage people to vote by mail and we just got a grant to be working on that. That's going to be something after to be working on. But I think that that kind of stuff just more votes is more good votes and that's going to happen. That's absolutely true. And so those things have been different too. So, I'm knocking on wood. MC: They give me hope. LB: Definitely not complacent. And I also said to Trish, if it doesn't work this way, I mean we're going to see major upheavals and major organizations. You know, scary are the circumstances. But if that happens, you know, we'll have to roll with that too. MC: Survival of the most adaptable. LB: That's a brilliant thing to say. I really think that's true. And I say to people. And people say things like I can't do this. I can't do this. Change is hard but we have to change. Everything about us. Everything about the queer community is about change. So if you're uncomfortable about this, get over it for Christ's sake. For heavens. We've been doing this for. We've had to change people's minds all along. MC: Absolutely. LB: From forever. That's how we thrive. We can't just go, "Okay, everything's fine now." Cause it's never going to be that way. So did I already ask you this? I guess maybe I have. To say something to somebody in the future if they're looking at this archive and you can make a little soundbite and say now. I know it's a big responsibility. MC: Well, yeah. I don't remember that one. LB: For me, I mean I say to people like, the people in the future know what happened. They know who won the election. They know what happened with COVID. They know what it's like to live thirty years from now. But they don't know exactly what it's like for individuals now. And that's why we're making these videos. MC: I guess what I'm going to say is so trite really, I think. I said before, there's nothing original about it. But, first of all I have to thank you for watching these. Thank you for going into this archive to learn about this. Because honestly if we don't learn about history we are going to repeat it. And it's not going to be pretty and it's not going to be fun. And our testimonies to the fact that it's not pretty and it's not fun. So yeah. Learn history and spread it to those. Others will know too. Otherwise you'll end up entering a situation just like this. Where you're the ones making the archives. So again, nothing original in that but I think that's probably what I would say. LB: Well I really appreciate this so much and thank you for letting me talk to you for so long. I've been talking way too much. I'm not supposed to say anything. MC: I really approached this as a conversation more than. LB: I take it as that. MC: And I've really enjoyed this conversation. LB: Good. And I'm also to come and fix your house as soon as COVID's -- MC: Awesome, excellent. LB: I'm going to turn off the recording now. So thank you again so much. END OF VIDEO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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01:49:47
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Marianne Cutler, July 30, 2020
Description
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Marianne Cutler talks about her experiences teaching during the Pandemic, and talks about how there is more LGBTQ+ representation in modern media as well. She also goes on to talk about how the 2020 Presidential Election would shape the future of this country.
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PH40_23
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
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2020-07-30
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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https://lgbt.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/dcf0c7ab0efcc1a111de269f4e14004a.png
6ef8fe82c027c310f593624e045a2c75
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
An account of the resource
In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Liz Bradbury
Interviewee
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Michelle Dech
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_22.xml
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5.4 July 31, 2020 Michelle Dech, July 31, 2020 PH40_22 01:47:27 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Michelle Dech Liz Bradbury video/mpeg DechMichelle_20200731_video.mp4 1.0:|31(4)|58(4)|93(2)|128(4)|149(2)|170(9)|191(11)|212(6)|235(2)|256(3)|277(2)|302(4)|329(18)|348(14)|373(12)|396(19)|423(8)|450(2)|473(2)|498(6)|523(2)|550(2)|571(9)|594(11)|623(11)|648(13)|673(9)|698(19)|719(4)|740(11)|765(8)|788(12)|809(9)|834(14)|857(15)|884(9)|907(14)|934(4)|957(10)|978(7)|999(3)|1022(4)|1047(12)|1070(12)|1097(15)|1122(14)|1143(10)|1166(6)|1189(9)|1210(7)|1233(8)|1252(12)|1279(7)|1300(14)|1325(5)|1346(8)|1369(11)|1390(10)|1415(8)|1438(2)|1459(9)|1482(14)|1503(10)|1524(15)|1551(13)|1572(12)|1595(13)|1620(16)|1641(10)|1662(8)|1683(2)|1702(6)|1735(6)|1762(5)|1791(3)|1812(18)|1833(10)|1854(5)|1875(7)|1896(8)|1917(7)|1938(10)|1963(9)|1984(6)|2009(12)|2036(8)|2059(12)|2080(10)|2105(7)|2130(3)|2153(5)|2192(5)|2223(18)|2250(6)|2275(12)|2306(4)|2331(5)|2348(15)|2369(10)|2390(10)|2415(4)|2434(12)|2453(15)|2474(16)|2493(11)|2516(4)|2547(2)|2562(5) 0 https://youtu.be/RQKB7gdJbs4 YouTube video 0 Interview Introduction LIZ BRADBURY: Now I’m going to record. I also have an audio recording as a backup in case of messing up or something happening. Yesterday, for whatever happened, and this is the first time it’s happened, the Zoom signal dropped three times during the interview, and I have no idea whether it was that person’s thing. Then I -- or whether it was my connection, although I don’t think it was, but I don’t know what was happening. But I haven’t had that happen at all, and then it happened a whole bunch of times which is, you know, my biggest fear, that I’m going to be doing a training and it’ll go off, and I don’t even -- 
 ; MICHELLE DECH: Absolutely. 0 207 Life during the Pandemic
 ; LB: Here are some things. So this is all things that we -- I already wrote you about. You can think about things in general, but we worked -- we just began talking about our concerns about other places, and you were talking about your mother being in Florida. So, go on with that. 0 525 Work at the LGBT Center of Greater Reading during the Pandemic
 ; LB: I think you should describe your position in the LGBT community, because you’re certainly in a position of leadership. So talk about what your job is there.
 ; 
 ; MD: Sure, so I’m the executive director of the LGBT Center of Greater Reading. I’ve been in this position for just two years now. And boy, it’s been an interesting ride. [00:09:00] You know, we’ve been fortunate to see exponential growth within our organization over the last few years, and then COVID hit ; that’s presented some new challenges for us and for me personally. But we love what we do. [...] 0 678 Learning during the Pandemic LB: Trish was at the doctor a couple days ago, who was in Bethlehem, and Trish was talking about, you know, they’re talking about opening the schools. And Bethlehem school district is still talking about that, and the doctor said they’re not going to open the schools. They’re just not. It’s not going to happen. So stop worrying about it. It’s not going to happen. Because it’s just the numbers will go up, and we’ve already seen that. So how can they possibly justify that for young people in a school situation, particularly in school situations where because of the lack of funding for the inner city schools in both Bethlehem and Allentown they have very crowded -- they don’t have air conditioning. [...] 0 1076 Working from Home vs. at Work during the Pandemic LB: Yeah. Wow. So who is at home with you? When you’re at home you have who else in the household?
 ; 
 ; MD: So my wife and I are there, and we have a cat. So it’s the three of us, and she works for Johnson and Johnson and is working from home now pretty much one hundred percent, and I know for that company they’ve done a lot of work on this virus and they’re in the heart of this. Of course, studying and in the race for vaccine and working in that capacity. I mean, that’s a huge organization, Johnson and Johnson, with a lot of affiliates. And they’re going back at, like, fifteen percent. A few people are trickling in because it’s necessary that we’ve got some people on site there, you know, that they can do that. But for the most part everybody is working from home. So that’s been a big adjustment because I too was working for home during the heat of this. So the two of us were working from home, and I used to think we needed to downsize, our house was too big for us, but after both being home every day we’ve-- no, I’m just kidding. So I’m fortunate enough that I can come to my office and at least get out a little bit and do some work here. But we’re just grateful that we’re both able to continue to work. A lot of friends of ours and family have lost their jobs or were furloughed and haven’t been called back. We’ve been very fortunate in all of this. So we’re blessed. 0 1802 Zoom and Skype during the Pandemic
 ; LB: [...] So you were just saying you’re over Zoom, and I know you’re not really because you’re doing it all the time. But talk about that a little bit because I’m sure that you’re doing tons of Zoom work and other kinds of communications like that.
 ; 
 ; MD: Yes, absolutely. We are. And I will be very honest with you, when this started and we had to pivot to something different, a platform, I hadn’t heard of Zoom at all. Never heard of it. Really hadn’t had any experience with it. So it was a learning curve for me, especially, you know, I’m a little older, so not using that as an excuse by any means, but technology today is sometimes way beyond me. So I was a little bit nervous about it, and quite frankly it was easier than I thought it was going to be, but I’m still learning every day. Zoom has different features that we can do and things to use. But what we’re seeing, and what I’m hearing from the community is everybody pivoted to virtual platforms, whether it was Zoom or Microsoft Teams, whatever it may be, which is, it’s excellent. I mean, we all had to in order to survive at all and to keep serving. 0 2274 Unequal Access to Technology / Mental Health during the Pandemic MD: Absolutely. I’m finding the same thing. And you know, one thing that concerns me through all this and has been a concern from day one, this technology is great. Don’t get me wrong. Like you said, it’s a seesaw, right. I mean, [00:38:00] it’s the opportunity to get in touch with people and actually see a face and whatnot. [...] 0 2492 Controlling the Virus: New Zealand / The Choice to be In-Person or Virtual LB: There’s no reason for this, all this stuff that’s happening [inaudible] mitigated [inaudible] easily. And it has been in many other countries. There’s no question about that. I was talking to somebody yesterday whose wife is from New Zealand, which, they totally absolutely one hundred percent controlled the virus. No one has it. No one’s at risk for it. They did it by intelligent lockdown and then just limiting people who come into the country. If they do come into the country they have to be quarantined for two weeks. They just do it that way, and you know, everybody wears a mask. That’s the deal. Then they did that. Now nobody has it, and they’re back to normal except they don’t have any tourism, which is a big influx of cash for that country. But the leader of the country is brilliant, brilliant woman who made the intelligent decisions to do the right thing. 0 3011 Concerns for the Pandemic in the Future MD: [...] So going on that, it’s I think people are starting to get desperate for human connection in person, to be in a room. So I’m frightened about the fall because I think summer right now, but you can at least take a walk. You can take a bike ride. You can do things like that. It gets you out. But boy, when the fall and winter hit on top of flu season, I think it might be a really difficult time we’re looking at ahead of us. So I hope that everybody’s preparing accordingly. I don’t want to sound like the voice of doom today. I feel like I do. 0 3147 Transitioning to Life during the Pandemic
 ; MD: So I’m being very cautious, obviously, and as far as the store, I’m a little bit unique in that position where I hated the grocery store to begin with, despised it, actually. My wife will tell you and my mother will tell you that I have the MO of pulling them up to the front of the store and saying okay, I’ll be parked down there. Look for me when you’re done. I am just not a grocery store person. And oddly enough my father ran a grocery store for forty-one years. 0 3390 Knowing Someone Who has Died from Covid-19
 ; LB: Yeah. Do you know anybody who’s been sick from this or has died or -- 
 ; 
 ; MD: I do. And not direct family at all, but I’ve had two people that I know are new that contracted it, and both have passed away from it.
 ; 
 ; LB: Oh my God. 0 3604 The Fear of Feeling Sick during the Pandemic
 ; MD: Exactly. Or there’s a little morphine that they -- you know, depending upon what they’re suffering. This is not that. And this is really ugly and scary. And to know that you can’t be with the person, your family can’t be there. And you know, I don’t know if you know this or not, but when this whole thing broke out, I guess it was the beginning of April for us here, we had been quarantined for like two weeks already, or stay-at-home orders for two weeks, my wife, in the middle of the night, woke me up, which, I don’t sleep well, so she doesn’t ever wake me up unless there’s an emergency. So the minute I hear that I’m like what’s the matter? What’s wrong? And she said I don’t feel well. [...] 0 4141 Isolation during the Pandemic
 ; MD: Sure, and I think the first thing that comes to mind is probably just frustration of not being able to see family and friends freely as we’ve been accustomed. And boy, it makes you certainly appreciate that, right, what we did have. So for me that’s been frustrating. And even serving our community and conversations that I’m having with the queer community, it’s very much the same. People are frustrated. And we’re in a country, although you might not know it right now under our current leadership, we have tremendous freedom, right, or we’re supposed to anyway. And we’re not accustomed to people telling us no. You can’t do this. And you must stay isolated, and you must wear a mask, and you must do this and that. [...] 0 4342 Use of Dating Apps during the Pandemic
 ; LB: I think we’ve actually hit on pretty much, by the stuff that we’ve been talking about, pretty much everything that I’m not going to ask you whether you’re using a lot of dating apps right now. 
 ; 
 ; MD: [laughs] No. No, but other friends are. I do have friends that are doing that. That’s interesting you say that. So yeah, there are a few people who have turned to that. 
 ; 
 ; LB: I’ve interviewed people who have said that they’re doing it, and that they’re also saying not that I would go on a date. 0 4422 Greater Access/Public Outreach during the Pandemic
 ; MD: [...] So there are some positives in all of this. I mean, its’ really given us an opportunity to take a look at how we’re doing things and how can we do things differently, how can we serve more? And maybe there’s some things that we really need to change up and work on.
 ; 
 ; LB: That’s definitely true. I [01:14:00] think we’re certainly have a larger outreach in terms of -- 
 ; 
 ; MD: Absolutely.
 ; 
 ; LB: -- the (inaudible). And running certain things that people will see online. Thirty-seven thousand people have seen something that we put on there, so I’m like okay, that worked. 0 4556 Thoughts on Black Lives Matter LB: [...] So let me ask you two last things. The first thing is do you want to talk about [01:16:00] the Black Lives Matters? Because we can’t really talk about this without talking about that. So what do you think?
 ; 
 ; MD: Absolutely. Wow, how long overdue, right? And shame on us again. And I feel personally like this particular moment right now is different. I really feel as though it’s garnered more attention. And some of that attention’s been negative, I will tell you.[...] 0 5139 Discrimination against Marginalized Communities
 ; LB: And everybody -- and so that’s, you know, it’s a respectful thing to say okay, well, we’re going to talk about this in the meeting instead of just looking away and saying yeah, but we really want to talk about early detection because we want everyone to be included. No, it’s not just about black people. But the other thing that I went, in effect, I went to this meeting in Harrisburg and spent a lot of hours there [01:26:00] trying to get back on the Skype because I had to keep doing it. And yet I learned a piece of information that I’ve passed on to a number of other people. And I think that’s a really important piece of information.
 ; 
 ; MD: That’s huge, yeah. 0 5424 LGBT Center Logo LB: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love your logo. That’s a great logo.
 ; 
 ; MD: Thank you. It’s pretty cool. Yeah, I’m fond of that. But I will tell you, the six colors like that, it’s made for a little bit of difficulty when you’re trying to do shirts or banners. I didn’t think about it, but it does.
 ; 
 ; LB: I absolutely said to Adrian when we were deciding on logo for the center, I said when we had Pennsylvania University Network it had a rainbow flag in it. And I said you know, it actually doesn’t matter as much now as it used to because printing doesn’t matter quite as much with the colors then. But like t-shirts and banners where they’re saying well, each color is an additional cost (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) 0 5761 Hopes/Words for the Future 
 ; LB: Well, I ask everybody if there was, you know, this is an archive video, and it’s possible that people will see this in the future, many, many years from now, and they know what’s going to happen. They know who’s going to be elected. They know what’s going to happen with regard to that. If they’re still alive they know if the world was still in place. They know what’s going to happen with COVID. But they don’t know what individuals who are going through -- that’s why we made these things, they don’t know what individuals are talking about and how it was affecting them. And I think your interview has been fabulous in terms of the effectiveness of that. But do you have a sort of sound bite to tell those people in the future about what’s going on or what you hope for them or something like that or what you -- I don’t know. 0 5962 Thoughts on Dr. Rachel Levine LB: Yeah, that was beautiful. That was a great statement. I forgot to ask you, to make some comments about our secretary of health Rachel Levine, and I just want to throw in there that what you’re saying really talks to the heroes of our community, and certainly Dr. Levine is one of them. And I know a lot of our young people are -- a lot of our young people are really devastated by how cruel everyone has been to Dr. Levine solely because she’s transgender, not because she -- because we know that she’s a brilliant scientist and a brilliant -- And I want all of our young people to know that heroes have to deal with adversity that often has nothing to do with the good things that they’re doing all the time. 0 6422 Closing Remarks LB: It is. Well, thank you so much. I really, really appreciate you taking a lot of time, more time than I asked for, for this terrific interview. And you had such interesting insights, and I appreciate it, and I appreciate all the terrific work that you’re doing. Thank you very much. And I’m going to turn the recorder off, and thank you. 0 MovingImage Michelle Dech talks about how the current COVID19 pandemic is effecting her. She talks about being the Director of the LGBT Community Center of Reading/Berks County and some personal experiences with emergency hospital visiting at the very height of the first part of the pandemic. Michelle Dech2020-07-31 LIZ BRADBURY: Now I'm going to record. I also have an audio recording as a backup in case of messing up or something happening. Yesterday, for whatever happened, and this is the first time it's happened, the Zoom signal dropped three times during the interview, and I have no idea whether it was that person's thing. Then I -- or whether it was my connection, although I don't think it was, but I don't know what was happening. But I haven't had that happen at all, and then it happened a whole bunch of times which is, you know, my biggest fear, that I'm going to be doing a training and it'll go off, and I don't even -- MICHELLE DECH: Absolutely. LB: You know, and people are like -- Okay, so now I have to start this again, ugh. Let's see. With this project Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center, the Trexler Library of Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in Lehigh Valley LGBT community, collecting and curating local LGBT experiences from HIV/ADS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury, and I'm here with Michelle Dech to talk about her experiences in the greater Lehigh Valley LGBT community during the time of the COVID-19 pandemic as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive. We're meeting on Zoom on July 31, 2020. Thank you so much for -- I have to be sure the recording light's on, yes. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start, could you please state your full name and spell it for me> ; MD: Sure, you're welcome, Liz, and thank you for having me. My name is Michelle, two Ls, and M-I-C-H-E-L-L-E. Last name is Dech, D-E-C-H. LB: And will you please share your birthdate? MD: March 28, 1966, but don't tell anyone. LB: Somebody I interviewed yesterday has your exact same birthday. MD: Wow, wow. LB: Interesting. Sure, yeah. So what town are you in? MD: I'm in Reading, Pennsylvania. LB: And now it says check to be sure it's really recording. Yes, okay. So, this is a consent portion. Do you consent to this interview today? MD: Yes, I do. LB: Great. Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable formats? MD: Yes. LB: Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats including films, articles, websites, presentations, and other formats we may not even know about today? MD: Yes, I do. LB: Do you understand that you will have thirty days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview, identify any parts you'd like to delete, and/or you could withdraw your entire interview from the project? MD: Yes. LB: What zip code are you in? MD: 19605. LB: Now, it does say what is your age? MD: Fifty-four. LB: Okay. Ah, you're a baby. I guess that's an ageist thing to say, so that's kind of rude. But how do you identify within the LGBT community, trans, gay, lesbian, bi, pan? MD: Lesbian. LB: Okay. And cisgender? MD: Yes. LB: Here are some things. So this is all things that we -- I already wrote you about. You can think about things in general, but we worked -- we just began talking about our concerns about other places, and you were talking about your mother being in Florida. So, go on with that. MD: Yes, thank you. So yes, my mother's in Florida. She lives in Port Orange, which is just south of Daytona Beach. And I'm pretty concerned obviously. Florida right now is the hot spot, one of the hot spots in the United States. And you know, she's certainly a high-risk category. She's in her mid-seventies. And her health is fair. So even going to the grocery store poses a great risk for her. And so it's been a little difficult to be here and not really be able to -- you know, we're close, but living far apart is difficult at this time. And so you know, when this pandemic began really raging through the states it was located more in the northeast with the higher numbers and whatnot. It was New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, high numbers. And Florida wasn't seeing that at that point. And you know, I had some conversations with her then trying to share the information along the, you know, this'll be your way. It's coming. Right now it's on us. And she, like many people, had the thought process of I can't stop living my life, and she actually still works. She's a hairdresser, and she works within her retirement community. And so she said I have these people that I serve, and I can't just stop life. However, since the flow has now turned the tide and Florida is a hotspot she's backtracked on a lot of that, and I'm thankful that she recognizes how deadly this can be and dangerous it is, but it's just affected everything that we're doing. I mean, personally, professionally across the board. LB: Yeah, so we have a place in Amelia Island, Florida. And so that's just up the coast from Daytona. And it is interesting because we have a niece and nephew there who are actually older than Trish. Trish's niece and nephew. And they -- while they know and they're being quite careful because they're very at risk, particularly the niece, they're married to each other, that they say they don't know anybody who has had this, and truthfully that's not really true. I mean, there's no way that they don't know anybody. It's just that Florida there's a concerted effort to underreport everything that's happening. And yet, you know, they're having what, fifteen-thousand new -- it's some huge number a day of new cases. I think it was one thousand nine hundred new cases a day and throughout the state. It's a very big state, but it's happening all over the state. And we've had -- heard directly from people we really know about direct harassment of people who were wearing masks, like young people who were wearing masks where people would come up and drive up to them and scream at them and try to pull off their masks and spit on them and stuff. It's just ridiculous, crazy stuff in this little town where we have a condo. Like, really? MD: Yeah, that's crazy. And frightening, right? I mean, it's frightening enough this whole pandemic by itself carries a lot of fear of what it can do, but then you have people that are -- it's almost willful ignorance to a point with the masks, in my opinion, with the masks. You know, when you choose specifically not to do so, I just don't, I don't get it. I truly don't understand. You know, I've had some friends that were anti-mask and still are anti-mask and a few conversations, and it's been interesting to see. I can honestly say that there seems to be a whole different culture right now that's just, the meanness, the anger, the hatred, the bigotry. It's like everybody's gotten a license to just let loose, and, you know, it's ugly. It's really ugly. And I think it can be overwhelming, even for mental health, for people that suffer from mental health disparities and whatnot. This adds a whole other element to it. And then you also have people that are anti-mask, and they're really been disparaging to other people. I don't understand. It's overwhelming. I can't see the light at the end of the tunnel yet, and that's frightening for me, honestly. LB: I think you should describe your position in the LGBT community, because you're certainly in a position of leadership. So talk about what your job is there. MD: Sure, so I'm the executive director of the LGBT Center of Greater Reading. I've been in this position for just two years now. And boy, it's been an interesting ride. You know, we've been fortunate to see exponential growth within our organization over the last few years, and then COVID hit. And so that's presented some new challenges for us and for me personally. So, but we love what we do. Our mission is strong. We're making some great progress, serving a lot of different people, and I think that even more so now people are in need across the board. So we're here, we're not going anywhere. We've been open through this, and when I say open I mean we moved everything to a virtual platform. So we've been serving the community that way, and we just did recently allow our youth program -- we meet two days a week with youth. And we have been doing them Tuesdays and Thursdays via Zoom. And so I jumped on one of their Zoom meetings a few weeks ago and just kind of get caught up and see how everyone was doing. And I kind of floated the idea of what would you think about coming back on site one day a week, just one day following social distancing protocol? And oh my gosh, they jumped at this. They were just so anxious. And they're kids that are in unsupportive homes. So to get them out for an hour here, it outweighs anything else right now for us. So we made the decision to do that, and hopefully it's making an impact on them. And it's been a challenge, as I've said a few times now. Social distancing protocols, but we've got everything in place, and everybody has been willing to follow those without issue. So that's the only thing that we're doing in the center right now. I mean I'm here every day working, but that's the only thing that we're really open to do at this point. We were hoping for something maybe in August or September, but it's not looking so good right now, no, yeah. So yeah. LB: Trish was at the doctor a couple days ago, who was in Bethlehem, and Trish was talking about, you know, they're talking about opening the schools. And Bethlehem school district is still talking about that, and the doctor said they're not going to open the schools. They're just not. It's not going to happen. So stop worrying about it. It's not going to happen. Because it's just the numbers will go up, and we've already seen that. So how can they possibly justify that for young people in a school situation, particularly in school situations where because of the lack of funding for the inner city schools in both Bethlehem and Allentown they have very crowded -- they don't have air conditioning. In the summer when it's very hot they put people, large, large numbers of youth, into small areas where there's air conditioning to combat the fact that some of the rooms don't have air conditioning. I was interviewing somebody who was a (inaudible) teacher, and he said there's just no way they can do this. And he gave me all these reasons. One of the things was he said, he was a music teacher, and in an eight-day period he comes in contact with every single student at the school. MD: Wow. LB: So I mean, not only would he be at risk, but if he were positive he could be commuting this to every single kid. And he said how do I not do that? And he said as a music teacher, what do we teach them? I can't do singing. We can't have percussion instruments because there's a rule that you can't hand out things to everybody. You can hand out two items and then clean them. So he said what do you do? It's like you hand out, like, two maracas. And then what do you do in the classroom? What, do I show a video? We can do that online. We can just have them go online to do that. So he said it's a ridiculous situation. It's not going to work for lots of kids. There's some programs maybe that could work, and I talked to somebody yesterday whose school system is saying that they're going to open, but they're not going to open. They're just not. I mean, they might have some kind of thing, but they're having her do, the youth do sports practice because she's on a team, and she's going every day for that and wearing a mask outside running around. And, you know, you can do that. It's not that hard to do that. But that's outside. And it's risky. I mean, this person was saying she's older. She's over fifty. And she's saying you know, it's scary when she comes back because she's been with all these kids. And they're not little. In some instances they're saying little kids might be less likely to have it, but she's fourteen. She might as well be an adult. This is not a little (inaudible). MD: Yeah, I mean, think about major league baseball. To me that was a good example of the school system to a degree of they started back. They gave it a shot. Without fans they opened up their seasons, and I'm speaking just of the Phillies in particular because my wife is a huge Phillies fan, so I know this stuff. But they started, had one game, and it all came crashing down now because they had many players that, I guess from the team that they were playing that -- it might have been the marlins from Florida, actually or someone. But anyway, they contracted it, and now Phillies players have it. They're testing, and there's a new one every day that tests positive. So they started the season and already it's stopped. It's halted. They've had to halt their season. To me with school if they do attempt to go back, I mean, Reading's saying the same thing. They've offered three different potential platforms to go on. One is obviously back in full onsite. One is a hybrid where it's half and half, and the other is online. And Reading High is enormous. I mean, thousands and thousands of kids in this high school. So, if they do get to that point to go back I believe it's only going to be a short time until it rages within the schools. And they're going to have to go backward anyway. So we'll see, but you're right, I don't see how it's even possible to do that. It really -- and why even attempt that? Why even take that risk, I guess, you know? LB: I mean, we can't get people in a store who are in a store for twenty minutes to wear masks. How are we going to get three thousand teenagers to wear masks? MD: Exactly. LB: And not talk close to each other. MD: Right, I was going to say and stay away from each other, yeah. LB: And they're overcrowded anyway. But the terrible thing is, and it's definitely true for Reading and Allentown, they're both similar in that the funding for people in terms of, you know, somebody like in the Parkland High School system or maybe West Reading or some other more affluent areas where everybody has internet access, everybody has a computer, everybody has, or almost everybody. And then you have Allentown school district where a huge number of Reading (inaudible) who are a large, large number of people's families are essential workers. They may be traveling into New York to work or something like that because they travel long distance or into Philadelphia. And they don't have internet access. There's just no internet access. So I could say well, you know, the kids can do this on computer. Well, that's fine for a bunch of rich kids who have computers or even middle income, but when you're talking about the circumstance of Reading where you have the least likely areas of places both in Allentown and Reading where people are going to be in whole areas where they're not going to be able to access computers at all. They don't have them, you know. MD: Absolutely. Like I said, it's just, it's affecting every aspect, I think, of everything we do. So it's certainly been an eye-opener. I got to tell you. I never in my wildest dreams imagined that we'd be going through something like this, although I guess when I take a real hard look at it I'm not surprised. The writing's been on the wall, you know. But yeah, it's been an interesting ride. LB: Yeah. Wow. So who is at home with you? When you're at home you have who else in the household? MD: So my wife and I are there, and we have a cat. So it's the three of us, and she works for Johnson and Johnson and is working from home now pretty much one hundred percent, and I know for that company they've done a lot of -- and they're in the heart of this. Of course studying and in the race for vaccine and working in that capacity. I mean, that's a huge organization, Johnson and Johnson, with a lot of affiliates. And they're going back at, like, fifteen percent. A few people are trickling in because it's necessary that we've got some people on site there, you know, that they can do that. But for the most part everybody is working from home. So that's been a big adjustment because I too was working for home during the heat of this. So the two of us were working from home, and I used to think we needed to downsize, our house was too big for us, but after both being home every day we're day -- no, I'm just kidding. So I'm fortunate enough that I can come to my office and at least get out a little bit and do some work here. But we're just grateful that we're both able to continue to work. A lot of friends of ours and family have lost their jobs or were furloughed and haven't been called back. We've been very fortunate in all of this. So we're blessed. LB: Here's an interesting piece of information. I was interviewing Steve Libby and Gary Gaugler yesterday, and they produce Gaydar or (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) magazine, and they also have regular day jobs. And Gary's job is at a big factory. It's a very, very big factory, one of the biggest producers of certain kind of pipe fighting sort of stuff that they've convinced the world is essential workers because they produce sprinkler heads and stuff like that. Although they don't produce them, according to Gary, in Pennsylvania. So, but he's in a huge factory. And he's worked there for a long time. He's worked there for fourteen years. And apparently they're requiring everyone to come back even though people working from home have actually increased productivity of the ability to get this work done. And it's interesting too. I think that, you know, when you're going to your office to work you're working when you're at work. When you're at home you're working when you're working. MD: Exactly. LB: And so it's actually more productivity. So but they're still requiring everybody to come back because there is apparently, because of certain funding and grants, and since they've talked people into believing that they're an essential company, they can only get huge, huge, huge, huge, huge, huge beneficial loans, which they're not really due apparently, unless they have 100 percent of the workforce come back. MD: Oh wow. LB: So they're forcing one hundred percent of the workforce to come back even though there's no reason for them go come back. They're actually doing a better job at home. They're safer at home. And they said if you don't come back it's your resignation because, the implication is, that this is a privately held company, they will get millions and millions and millions of dollars of loans of our tax money if they make everybody come back even though they really don't need to. And apparently, and I've heard from several people that that's an issue all over the country. So good for Johnson and Johnson because they would be in that position too probably. MD: I would think. LB: But it sounds as though they are making a very intelligent effort to understand that it's not going to help productivity. It's going to make some people leave their jobs. I've talked to at least three people. For COVID, this is my twentieth interview. I've actually interviewed a couple of couples. Our grant was to interview twenty people who are for the COVID interviews, and ten for HIV/AIDS, so people who lived through the AIDS epidemic in the 1980s and ninties. So I did those first. I'm not -- so this is thirty. And I talked to those people about COVID too. And I've talked to a number of people who actually actively quit a job that they had been in for a long time where they were making good money and doing good stuff because it was too dangerous there and their company was forcing them to do something that was very, very risky. Even people who, I mean, I can think of four people that I've interviewed that have said yeah, I left this job. I was in management, and I just, they were making me do things. It was putting other people at risk. I couldn't do it. And so I just quit. It's an interesting thing to have that level of ethics. MD: I mean, I guess my question on all of that, and I knew that there were some companies that were doing that, of course. I don't think I knew it was widespread. But I'm not surprised, yeah. But I guess the first thing that my mind goes to is there's got to be some kind of liability there I would think. If you're forced into coming back and you contract this and that can be traced to you going back for that, does the liability outweigh the -- you know, I mean, where do you draw the line? Where do you ethically -- LB: Well, there's no question that these people have said I've reported this company over and over again. We've talked to somebody whose -- I talked to the mother of a person who's very, very at risk, and she's considered an essential worker because she's a waitress. I mean because she's a good server, and the mom that I was speaking to is part of our long-term LGBT support allies who ran PFLAG in the Strasburg area for years and still does, for years and years and years, said that her daughter is really, really at risk. She has a congenital heart issue and stuff like that. And they said you have to come in. And she said you're not following any of the protocols. You people aren't wearing masks. You're not asking people to wear a mask. I mean, talk about a dangerous circumstance where a waitress is going from table to table. MD: Absolutely. How? LB: (inaudible) imagine that and to know that behind the scenes no one is wearing a mask, no one's wearing a mask in the kitchen. It's just a cesspool of danger. And then yet if she says I'm not going to come in anymore they say well, that's your resignation, then she won't get unemployment. She's resigning. She's quitting her job. And how stressful that is for this mom who's saying -- and it's not like she's making tons of money. It's not like she's a doctor and she's making one hundred thousand dollars or three hundred thousand a year or two hundred thousand or even a nurse who's getting a pretty good living wage and making fifty thousand dollars or sixty thousand dollars a year. This person is making what, you know, less than poverty rate and probably significantly less because less people are going to restaurants. I mean, it seems to a lot of people who are staying home that everybody's out there going to work except for people who are staying home. And everybody that I've interviewed are drastically staying home. And it's a wide variety of people, different ages, different demographics, different races, different socioeconomic circumstances, and different parts of the queer community. And they were all staying home. They're all really avoiding it. They're not going to bars. They're not going to restaurants. They're very, very concerned they're developing agoraphobia. You know, the whole thing. And they think that everybody else is going out. Because they're not going out they can't see. Truthfully that's not really happening so that when people go to a restaurant they say we were the only ones in the restaurant. And it still wasn't comfortable, you know. So we wonder. We're not going to go back. And I talked to one guy, [Bob Jacobs?], or he posted that he was in a restaurant in Palmerton. And he said the waitress came to the table without a mask on. MD: Oh wow. LB: You know what I mean? Like, really? And the first thing that Trish did, said was did he stay there? I mean, I would just get up and walk out. MD: Exactly, that's what I was thinking. LB: So but I know that there's some people, there's some restaurants that think that this is exactly the way to be, and we've heard about that and stuff like that. MD: I think that it's pretty incredible, if you really think about this. You were talking about the waitress that had to resign from the job or, you know, was forced to basically resign, and those people that we consider essential workers, right, the value that we placed on them previously, just from my opinion, was low. We didn't really value what they do. Maybe we didn't understand fully all that they put on the line every day. So I think this has been a great opportunity. It's one of the better things that, for me anyway, that's come out of this is it really helped me to pause for a minute and take a look at well -- and not that I treated anyone poorly at all or thought of anyone any differently, but I think our essential workers, we take them for granted. We totally take them for granted. They're paid peanuts. Most of our essential workers are paid poverty line salaries. And we've got others that are doing jobs making lots of money that really there's such an imbalance. And this is really, I think, given us a good baseline to work off of, you know, we really need to think about this and restructure how we're doing things and put some value and pay people for that value and what they're bringing to the table. And shame on us that it's taken us all this time and a pandemic to maybe get a few of us to take a hard look and say that we need to change this. We truly need to step up and make some changes. LB: And you know, think about increasing the minimum wage, increasing the circumstance of universal healthcare because in many ways that was the perpetuation of the pandemic from the beginning, that people couldn't take time off because they didn't have healthcare or they didn't have time off with healthcare. If they took days off for being sick they just wouldn't be paid. And so they chose not to do that because they couldn't afford to take four days off of work because they were coughing. And wait a minute. You know, that was one of the big perpetrators and the amplifiers of the virus at the beginning. And so we can see that now. It's trackable. And to say that that wasn't true is just putting your head in the sand. So you were just saying you're over Zoom, and I know you're not really because you're doing it all the time. But talk about that a little bit because I'm sure that you're doing tons of Zoom work and other kinds of communications like that. MD: Yes, absolutely. We are. And I will be very honest with you, when this started and we had to pivot to something different, a platform, I didn't ever hear of Zoom at all. Never hear of it. Really hadn't had any experience with it. So it was a learning curve for me, especially, you know, I'm a little older, so not using that as an excuse by any means, but technology today is sometimes way beyond me. So I was a little bit nervous about it, and quite frankly it was easier than I thought it was going to be, but I'm still learning every day. Zoom has different features that we can do and things to use. But what we're seeing, and what I'm hearing from the community is everybody pivoted to virtual platforms, whether it was Zoom or Microsoft Teams, whatever it may be, which is, it's excellent. I mean, we all had to in order to survive at all and to keep serving. However in doing so we oversaturated our community right now with information and events. And so I started hearing from different people that were on a lot of our events and a lot of different things, programming that we offered, and we started doing a little bit of a poll after each one, you know, just your normal, regular poll of was this impactful for you? And one of the questions we asked was, you know, how was your experience using Zoom? And some of the responses we got back really spoke to Zoom fatigue. Like, I enjoyed it, but I have to be honest with you, it's Zoom fatigue right now. There's just so much going on. And one of the comments we had was from somebody that actually volunteers for us but who was on as somebody who was just on to sign in and see what we were doing and to participate. And she said to me, she said you know, the event was great. The programming was awesome. But I have to admit a few times I found myself just kind of off and, you know, gazing out the window or something. And she said it had nothing to do with what you were producing but really more with just the same sitting and watching a computer screen. And I think a lot of us, those of us who were able to continue working. And especially, like a great example is my wife, okay. She works all day long on the computer, and they have Zoom meetings all day long. And so they're doing that seven out of eight hours of the day. And then in the evening I say oh, we've got an event tonight or we're doing this tonight, and it's Zoom, and you know, she said to me oh my gosh, I just spent seven hours staring at that computer screen. I don't know if I can do two hours tonight on top of it yet. So it's really not about what we're offering and what we're doing. It's more about people just being Zoomed out, so to speak. And you know, summer, I think summertime too there are people that are tempting fate, and they are vacationing, not at the rates that we typically vacation, so I think in a combination of summer and Zoom fatigue we're not seeing as much activity as we had been initially. And I think that's, for our organization, though, I'm not sure for you guys up there in Allentown, but for our organization that's kind of typical of what we've seen over the last couple years, that summer's a little tougher, you know, as far as participation goes. We still have people, but it's definitely a little bit lighter. So yeah, so Zoom was interesting. It's been a blessing, thankfully, that we can at least have that kind of communication and gathering, so to speak. So we're lucky. LB: Yeah, I'm on the statewide task force for Alzheimer's and related disease. It's a government task force, a governor's task force, and I've been serving on that for quite a few years, and yesterday morning I was at a conference. I did a conference in Harrisburg. So normally I would have had to go to Harrisburg to do this, and I've done that many times. And it started at ten, but they usually have a check-in at nine for the commissioners, or whatever it's called, the committee members. And so I would have to get up and leave at, you know, what, six thirty to be sure that I got there through rush hour. I'm so paranoid that I'm going to get stuck in traffic. So I'd leave at six thirty, and I'd be there. They'd have a horrible lunch that I really couldn't eat, that just wouldn't fit into my needs. And then I would be there, and then (inaudible). I'd get home by the end of the day. I'd get home by five even though it ended at noon. MD: Wow. LB: Because, you know, it just takes forever to do that. And so it was joyous for me to not have to do that. The problem was that they did the meeting on Skype. And it was some kind of Skype for business or something, and my connection with them dropped three times during the meeting. I couldn't see anybody. I couldn't do it on my computer because my computer's a little too old to run Skype. I have no problem with Zoom. So I had to do it on my iPad, but my iPad doesn't allow you to see the gallery view. You can only see with this Skype -- with Skype with business. For some reason you can't do it. And they kept saying well, you just click on the top button. I said yeah, it's not there on iPad. And then somebody else said yeah, it's not there on iPad. It doesn't work on iPad. You can see us. So I can only see the person. So the frustration of that aspect of it and the lack of ability to network and stuff was lost. So there was a real seesaw of like, yippee, I don't have to drive to Harrisburg and spend twelve hours doing that and gas and all that stress, and it's long day. And then the next day you're kind of messed up and you miss everything. It's the (inaudible) stuff. But then the other hand is that the meeting in many ways wasn't very successful. And I was talking to somebody who is actually running, he's in charge of a big bed and breakfast, historic bed and breakfast in Bethlehem, and she's been working all the way through, but at times she was running the entire thing herself, making the breakfast, cleaning the rooms, because she had to lay off her people. And they still had people. And then they asked her to actually house doctors who didn't want to go home and potentially infect their families. And she said, you know, I'm at really high risk, so I'm thinking do I want to do this? (inaudible) this whole thing. But they do have, she has a board and she has whole bunch of people. It's actually not for profit, and there's all kinds of stuff. And she said we've had so many Zoom meetings that I got off a meeting and think that could have been done with a text. MD: Absolutely. I'm finding the same thing. And you know, one thing that concerns me through all this and has been a concern from day one, this technology is great. Don't get me wrong. Like you said, it's a seesaw, right. I mean, it's the opportunity to get in touch with people and actually see a face and whatnot. But as you well know, the queer community in general, there's a lot of us that are isolated under regular circumstances, normal circumstances, right, and many don't have a computer. Many don't have internet. And so there is a huge group of people, chunk of people that we're missing in serving right now. You know, we were doing some calls. I have some volunteers that were making calls from home just checking on people. But it's really limiting. And it's frightening for those of us that are serving those people and those that are suffering through it. It's great, but not everybody's able to do that. I mean, there's one gentleman that we serve in particular, he is disabled, but he gets around pretty well. And he has a flip phone, an old flip phone. And he said I think I'm going to buy a computer, and I'm going to try this Zoom stuff. And I said well, I'll have somebody else help you because forget it for me. Fucking, I can't do that for you. But he did. I mean, he invested in the computer, and we had some help to get him set up, and that's wonderful. But most people aren't in a position to do that. And so you know, it's really frightening and challenging of how do we serve those that are even more isolated now and suffering from mental illness and what not to begin with? And speaking on that, I guess I sound like Debbie Downer today, and I don't mean that at all. However, one thing that I think is important to know and that I've discovered through all this, and I'm just going to be authentic and put it out here, be vulnerable in this, you know, personally I've been fortunate enough never really to suffer from anxiety or depression, other than, you know, you have a bad day once in a while. But I have to be honest with you, I'm starting to feel a little bit overwhelmed in all of this, and not about what we're doing as an organization or even me personally at home or anything like that. I just mean the state that we're in right now, and if I'm feeling that way I know that others are feeling the same, and there are people who have been long-term suffers of depression and anxiety their whole lives. And I can't even imagine what they're feeling now, you know. This has also been something that has caused me to pause and say, you know, wow. I have a new appreciation for those that suffer from these things and what they must go through every day. And so it's been interesting. And it's been an eye-opener in a lot of ways. So I like to think there's some good that comes out of everything and things happen for a reason and all those things. So I'm hopeful, but I believe in all of that unless it's politics. Then I don't know why this happened right now. Right? LB: There's no reason for this, all this stuff that's happening (inaudible) mitigated (inaudible) easily. And it has been in many other countries. There's no question about that. I was talking to somebody yesterday whose wife is from New Zealand, which, they totally absolutely one hundred percent controlled the virus. No one has it. No one's at risk for it. They did it by intelligent lockdown and then just limiting people who come into the country. If they do come into the country they have to be quarantined for two weeks. They just do it that way, and you know, everybody wears a mask. That's the deal. Then they did that. Now nobody has it, and they're back to normal except they don't have any tourism, which is a big influx of cash for that country. But the leader of the country is brilliant, brilliant woman who made the intelligent decisions to do the right thing. And here's a, you know, since you were talking about that in terms of that isolation, and I frequently an older person, and I've been running these different groups in Allentown for twenty-five years, that we always had people who would be like, they really like the Valley Gay Press when we mailed it to them, and then when we said well, you know, people said you could do this online, I could say well, yeah, but we have a significant number of people who don't have that capability, and a lot of younger believe or people who are not at the nuts and bolts level of an organization believe that everyone is online, everyone can access information with their phone, everyone can get an email. Well, at least you can get an email. It's like, you know, really the people -- MD: That's not the case. LB: -- the most vulnerable people who are the people we should do the most to serve, are the ones we can't serve that way. And I've had far more info (inaudible) calls. We've been running that for 25 years. So but one thing that happened, and this is true. We have a book club or a book group, community group. And we averaged about like nine or ten, maybe eight or nine people, ten people sometimes. We've had meetings with fifteen people, and some of the people, I said to Trish I just saw so-and-so. I haven't seen her for four years. MD: Wow. LB: And I really think she's not comfortable going out to groups, but, you know, you're really in control on a Zoom call. Because you want to leave, you don't even have to excuse yourself. MD: You're right. You just hit that little button. And you can turn yourself off. Yeah, you don't have to be on camera, yeah. LB: Totally in control. You don't have to care. But you can say well, I can only phone in, so I don't want people to see me, you know. And so some of our groups, we've given our groups, I'll say a lot of different groups, the opportunity to decide whether they want to meet in public because we have a big enough space that we can fit about twenty people still six feet from each other. I wouldn't do it though. I wouldn't go in. I'm too much at risk. And Trish is too much at risk. So I wouldn't do it. And I won't run a group like that. So I mean it's tough to ask people to do that. But several of the groups said no, we want to keep doing it on Zoom because we're actually getting more people and different people and people who aren't comfortable coming out. So that's been an interesting thing, I think. It's both sides of the coin. It really is, you know. But you're right about the ones who are really at risk. So when people call I answer them because like, you know, and I'll talk to somebody for a long time because I know many people are really isolated. And they have the same situation. And the first thing I say is that, you know, can you go online? And they'll frequently say well, yeah, they used to say I can go to the library and do it. MD: You know, I just had a conversation yesterday with another organization that I can't announce yet, but they were looking to partner in what they're doing and our end of it would simply be to provide space and a computer and social distance protocol put into place where someone could come in to our location and use that computer and the internet service that we provide in order to connect with the other group if they don't have that at home. And you know, so I thought you know what, that's probably a really great idea. And I looked over it and gave it some thought and talking to our board about it. And if it can be done, you know, obviously it needs to be done in a smart fashion, and since we are actually closed technically we can provide a room. We've got several different rooms that have doors and locks and whatnot, so someone could certainly come in and utilize some of our equipment and our internet service to have this appointment, and if they don't have that option at home. So I'm considering that, and again, it's a tough call of it's opening it up to have somebody come in, and I don't know much about them and their background, you know, those kinds of things. And even if you do know about them we don't know who's been -- like I said, even going to the grocery store we're all at risk. We've all been exposed one way or another, I think, so we're trying to make these decisions on a really measured, slow progress of how do we still serve people, and what's the best way to do that? So I really like that idea, and I think that we could probably do that safely. And so we're probably going to pursue that and maybe look to other places that might need a hand in that way, do the same. So we're always evolving, and we're always seeking more. And you mentioned the zoom thing, and you're right. It's a toss-up. We're doing interviews right now for board positions that we have available, and we have several applicants to see, and so I put out a note giving them the option. We can meet via Zoom, or if you would prefer in-person we're considering how do we do that, social distance. We have access to much larger rooms where we can really spread some people out. And so out of so far I've called eight people. There's more to call, but out of eight, seven requested in person. LB: Really? MD: Yes, one person said I just had surgery, I'd prefer to do Zoom. I couldn't believe it, honestly. I was expecting it to be the opposite direction, most people would want to do it Zoom. And so we held, last night we held four interviews. And we had them spaced far enough, used a larger room, all social distancing protocol in place, and one of the last people that we interviewed said you know, I originally had typed out that I'd prefer to do this Zoom. And she said but I changed my mind while I was typing. She said I personally just needed to get out of my house and be around other people how be it wearing a mask and sitting way further than six feet apart just to be in a room with some other people. So when she left she said I really appreciated this time. She said just knowing that we were going to do everything as safely as humanly possible. And even that we realize, that's not one hundred percent. There's no guarantee, you know. So going on that, it's I think people are starting to get desperate for human connection in person, to be in a room. So I'm frightened about the fall because I think summer right now, but you can at least take a walk. You can take a bike ride. You can do things like that. It gets you out. But boy, when the fall and winter hit on top of flu season, I think it might be a really difficult time we're looking at ahead of us. So I hope that everybody's preparing accordingly. I don't want to sound like the voice of doom today. I feel like I do. LB: I don't think that's unrealistic. I think that people have to recognize that the way we're all behaving across the United States, I mean, as a collective group, the likelihood of a second surge is so high. And it's true for other major pandemics. It was true for the flu epidemic of 1918. I mean, the first part, and that flu was so deadly, the first part was similar to what our first part is. The second half was the killer. And they had to shut everything down. Everybody knew someone who had died. And you know, millions and millions and millions of people died. Fifty million people died in that flu. And so it's really a thing that affected everybody. Nobody didn't know somebody who had -- I mean, one out of three people in the world were sick from it. So everybody knew somebody had it. And right a very few people or a lot of people don't know somebody who has had it or has been seriously ill by it that's close to them. It's potential that if we have a second wave, particularly with sending kids to school -- and the only way where that's not going to happen is if we keep everything shut down. So you're going to have to wonder, like, you know. But there is a desperation. Human beings are social beings, and that's the deal. What are you doing in terms of going out? Like, do you go to the store? What do you do? MD: So I'm being very cautious, obviously, and as far as the store, I'm a little bit unique in that position where I hated the grocery store to begin with, despised it, actually. My wife will tell you and my mother will tell you that I have the MO of pulling them up to the front of the store and saying okay, I'll be parked down there. Look for me when you're done. I am just not a grocery store person. And oddly enough my father ran a grocery store for forty-one years. LB: I think that's a connection there. MD: Maybe, maybe. You know, he passed seven years ago, so I'm glad he's not hearing me say this right now about hating the grocery stores. But I have been in, of course. And I'm very cognizant about my surroundings and people coming down the aisle that I'm in, and are they wearing a mask, are they not wearing a mask? And I haven't really had any poor experience with that because it is limited in the grocery store in particular. I will tell you that we have gone out to eat twice, three times so far just recently. This is more recent. And again, I've been fortunate that the waitress or waiter is wearing a mask, and everybody seems to be following the protocol that's been in place. But I do know that there are other people that have gone out, like you said, that waitresses aren't wearing them. The servers are not social distancing. The cooks, if you get a quick glimpse into the back of the kitchen, I had a friend of mine who said they went to a local chain restaurant outside. They were outside, which is something I should say. We've been out. I've gone out to eat, but it's only been outside. LB: Oh okay, yeah. MD: So I haven't been in anywhere. But even outside, you know, walking to get outside this friend of mine said he got a glimpse of the kitchen on the way out, and he said he looked and no one was in a mask in the kitchen. And so he turned around to the person that was seating him and he said, you know, I'm sorry, I just saw that no one's wearing a mask back there, and I'm not comfortable with that. So I'm going to take my business elsewhere, and he walked out. So I'm getting out, nowhere near to the amount that I had been initially. You know, this position, as you're well aware of, requires a lot of community engagement. And so I'm an extravert by nature anyway, and with the position there was something almost every night that I was doing, some kind of event, something to attend. And that's been difficult for me. And I was tired, so the first two weeks, Liz, of this whole thing I was like, huh, this is okay, you know. But thinking that it's going to be over, right, in a few weeks. So I got some rest, and I got caught up on some work and things like that and did a couple things around the house. And then I found myself, like, twiddling my thumbs of like, okay. Now what? I'm ready. Get me back in. So it's been challenging to lead a normal life, as everybody else knows. So yeah. Much more time to -- I'm reading more, which isn't a bad thing. Spending more time with my wife, which is not a bad thing. And saving some money, actually, by being home more. We just had that conversation last night of like hey, you know, we're actually saving more money. So we're fortunate. I look at all the people, like I said earlier, that don't have jobs. Some people have lost their homes, losing their apartments, and so I'm faring very well. So I'm lucky. LB: Yeah. Do you know anybody who's been sick from this or has died or -- MD: I do. And not direct family at all, but I've had two people that I know are new that contracted it, and both have passed away from it. LB: Oh my God. MD: They were a little bit older than me. And yeah, and you know, until it happens I think to someone you know, even if it's in the outer circle of somebody you know, if it's a friend of a friend or a friend's family member, something like that, I think it's more surreal. Until you can actually identify somebody like oh my gosh, you know, she passed away with this. And you know, I have a few friends that work in the medical field, and even my personal care physician who I just saw a couple weeks ago, we talk. We're pretty tight. And during that conversation I asked her what are you guys seeing? How does it look for you? How do you feel about the future, the fall and whatnot? And I got to tell you, it was probably one of the most profound conversations I've ever had with her, and I've known her for eighteen years I've been going to the same person. So we talk pretty freely and openly. And so she said to me, she said at her practice there's a bunch of doctors, and they have to all take a rotation at the hospital, local hospital, and the older physicians in that practice don't have to do the COVID round because they're -- LB: At risk. MD: -- more likely to be infected. So she didn't have to do the COVID round, but she looked at me and she said you know, two months into this she said one of our younger doctors did his COVID round in the hospital over the weekend. And she said he came in on Monday, and she asked him all right, tell me, what did you see? Where are we? How does this look? What can you bring back for us? And she said she looked in his eyes and the look in his eyes, he was not the same person, over the weekend. Like, she said he looked at her and he said I can't even put into words what I witnessed this weekend. And this was at the height when it was really bad here in Berks. And he went on to say that witnessing several people pass away and the method and how this happens to people, it is ugly. And it is frightening. And this is coming from -- and I think what moved me the most was probably that this is coming from a doctor who's in there, who puts their selves on the line every day. And when you have a physician that's looking at you, and she said the look in his eyes was just amazing and frightening. She said he's never going to be the same. He's never going to be the same. You know, he said the process of dying from this that especially older people are seeing and middle aged now too, it's not one of those things where -- no death if you're ill is pleasant, obviously. There's suffering and pain and whatever. LB: Some people drift away. MD: Exactly. Or there's a little morphine that they -- you know, depending upon what they're suffering. This is not that. And this is really ugly and scary. And to know that you can't be with the person, your family can't be there. And you know, I don't know if you know this or not, but when this whole thing broke out, I guess it was the beginning of April for us here, we had been quarantined for like two weeks already, or stay-at-home orders for two weeks, my wife, in the middle of the night, woke me up, which, I don't sleep well, so she doesn't ever wake me up unless there's an emergency. So the minute I hear that I'm like what's the matter? What's wrong? And she said I don't feel well. And so by the time I sat up she was already seated on the floor against the bed. And so I said what's going on? What's happening? And she said I'm dizzy. I have pain. I am sweating. And I said oh my God, you're having a heart attack. Well, I need to call 911. And she was adamant don't you dare touch that phone. Just give me a minute to get myself together, you know. And I ended up sitting on the floor with her for about forty-five minutes. I ran downstairs and got a soda and got some kind of candy. She doesn't suffer from any sugar issues, but I didn't know what to do to help and thought maybe that could be. So she had a few sips of the soda and had the piece of candy, and we sat there for forty-five minutes. And there was one point in time during that 45 minutes, and I really only mention this to good friends of ours, so I guess I'm really going to blow it out here this way, but she got very quiet, you know. And she just sat. And she was kind of staring off at the door. And so I said something to her about I really think we need to go. Instead of calling an ambulance I'll drive you. Let me help you get down the steps. And she didn't answer me. And her gaze was just fixed on the door. And for a split second, honest to God, Liz, I thought she died, for a split second. So I said, "Deb!" And scared her to death, you know. And she said I'm okay, I'm okay. Just hold on a minute. And so she refused to go anywhere that night at all because of COVID, because we knew our hospitals were just inundated with patients at the time. And so I will tell you what's even more profound about this whole thing was the morning after, you know, we're chatting, and I said Deb, you may have had a heart attack, and there could be damage. You really need to get checked out. And I had also called some family and friends that morning and just said this is what happened. And so they got on the phone with her as well and said you know, Deb, you really, just go. You got to go do this. It's important. So she agreed. So I drove her over to St. Joseph's Hospital here in Berks County. And I pulled into this parking lot that I hadn't seen under the COVID, right, pandemic. It looked like I pulled into a nuclear waste site, okay. There were tents everywhere. There were people in hazmat suits. It was just unreal. And so I parked the car, walked with her up to the curb, to the first tent, and people didn't even come out of the tent. They stayed back. And they're talking to you from way further than six feet. And why are you here? What are your symptoms? And they go through the COVID questions at that point, of course. And so they said okay, we need to scan you for a fever, which they did. She did not have. So they said you can go in the emergency room where there was a police officer standing at the door that would not allow you in if you did not have the permission to get in. LB: Wow. MD: And so I started walking with her, and the lady in the tent, her voice, you know, she got a little louder, and she said, "Ma'am, you can't go. You can't go in." And I knew that. I even knew that driving her over there, that I'm not going to be able to go in, you know. But let me tell you something, until you're standing on a curb in front of a tent with people in a hazmat suit telling you you can't go in with your loved one when they're experiencing a trauma and potentially fatal trauma, right, at this point, you have no idea how that sits and how that feels. And so I looked at her, and I'm just going to reveal, and I said well, that sucks. And she thought I was going to be defensive, of course. And so she got defensive, and she said oh, you know, this is just for you. We can't. It's for safety. And I said oh, no, no. I get it. I understand. I really do know all that, but boy does it really hit home when you're in that position. So imagine your loved one having contracted COVID, being in the hospital and being on a ventilator, and you've got to do it via phone or iPad or something. So I sat in the parking lot waiting for her. And before she sent me a text that told me she was being evaluated and tests and whatnot. And I put a little post on Facebook about this called the view from the parking lot because I just watched the same thing happen to at least a dozen people during the time that I was there. And I saw their faces when the people that were in my position turned around to come back to their car because we were told you can wait in your car or you go home and we'll call you. And so I waited right there in the car. LB: Oh, yeah, because -- MD: Right? And then but what I saw not only the people that were in my position walk away and the look on their faces of just despair, it was just despair, were the people that were coming in that were fearful that they had COVID because they were sent to another tent outside that was open that I could watch them being tested for it. I could see that. Every single one of them looked so ill, gravely ill. It was a really devastating day. And luckily enough for us the tests came back fine on my wife. She's fine. We're not sure what it was. It really could have been a sugar incident. But the point of that is, is that, you know, many people didn't seek help for other issues they were having because of this, you know, because of this pandemic. So I mean, it's been life altering. And we've had some experiences in it that have just really been quite unique and very frightening. LB: Yeah. Wow, that's an amazing story, an incredibly important story that I think (inaudible) told us that because I think people need to understand how serious that kind of stuff -- I've been in a situation where Trish was in a very, very dangerous situation, got knocked out, and they took her to the hospital, and they wouldn't let me in because I wasn't next of kin. And I actually had in my pocket my power of attorney in my pocket, which I carried with me everywhere I go. I still carry it with me everywhere I go, and our marriage license in case we knock into somebody who says well, I don't think you're really married, and it just tends to be -- could just be somebody like that. But when I was able to get in they didn't keep me from being with her, and I think that's something that people need to know. I think that's pretty important. So let's see. Wow. I (inaudible). So I can see all these things though. So there you go. I mean, there's an enormous amount of frustration and concern. And what about general frustration? This is so watered down compared to the story you just told me. But like, in general frustrations or fears, you know, that's more broad? MD: Sure, and I think the first thing that comes to mind is probably just frustration of not being able to see family and friends freely as we've been accustomed. And boy, it makes you certainly appreciate that, right, what we did have. So for me that's been frustrating. And even serving our community and conversations that I'm having with the queer community, it's very much the same. People are frustrated. And we're in a country, although you might not know it right now under our current leadership, we have tremendous freedom, right, or we're supposed to anyway. And we're not accustomed to people telling us no. You can't do this. And you must stay isolated, and you must wear a mask, and you must do this and that. And so that's been frustrating, I think, to me and other people in our community just because we've been so incredibly fortunate enough to be somewhere where we can pretty much chose our path. And now where there's obstacles in that path and a great example of that is events that we're doing or that we used to do here. We had one that we were going to roll out in August that would be outside, large area. It was a really cool kind of thing that we came up with to do, out of the box trying to come up with things. And recently spoke to local officials about doing that somewhere within city realm and were told no, we're going backwards a little bit here, so we're going to hold off on some of that stuff. And we've got to kind of put a cap on some of these things right now because of what we're seeing. So it's been frustrating. And on a person note, and my wife will tell you this, I don't like to be told no, period, right. So it's been more difficult for myself and for others that are just used to doing as we please within the realm of law, of course. So that's a frustration. And you know, from my position here, and I said it earlier, I think one of the biggest frustrations that I have is not being able to serve everybody equally right now in the same fashion. I mean, we're working to do that, but I guess I'm my worst critic and hardest on myself as I just feel like those who are able to jump on a Zoom conference or able to get on a call at any time are much more fortunate in this than those who can't. And so that's frustrating for me is feeling like we're not -- and I know we are. We're doing all we can and above that in a lot of instances, but I just feel like we're missing out on a whole other group of people that are in need right now. And we're trying. We're doing our best. LB: I think we've actually hit on pretty much, by the stuff that we've been talking about, pretty much everything that I'm not going to ask you whether you're using a lot of dating apps right now. MD: [laughs] No. No, but other friends are. I do have friends that are doing that. That's interesting you say that. So yeah, there are a few people who have turned to that. LB: I've interviewed people who have said that they're doing it, and that they're also saying not that I would go on a date. MD: Right. [laughter] LB: What kind of person would go on a date then the chances of even getting sick from them are awfully high if they're dating lots of people. But they're having conversations and stuff or whatever, online dates with people that have been something. And I think that that's true. But I haven't really talked to anybody who said sure, I'm hooking up with people or (inaudible) before. I don't think if it was even true they'd be admitting it. MD: Exactly. I mean, I do have one person that I know that started doing the online dating thing, and the person that she was seeing, so to speak, they watched a movie. They stream a movie into Zoom and watched this movie together. And I thought, how clever? I mean, so I think people are really being innovative and stepping outside the box. I know we're doing that as an organization. And you guys are too, you know, of what you can do and how to do it because we've been kind of forced to do that. So there are some positives in all of this. I mean, its' really given us an opportunity to take a look at how we're doing things and how can we do things differently, how can we serve more? And maybe there's some things that we really need to change up and work on. LB: That's definitely true. I think we're certainly have a larger outreach in terms of -- MD: Absolutely. LB: -- the (inaudible). And running certain things that people will see online. Thirty-seven thousand people have seen something that we put on there, so I'm like okay, that worked. MD: Exactly, you know, that's a big Zoom plus, I have to tell you. I mean, you know, in some of the pogroms that we've done and we have here on site, we get a lot of Berks County residence, of course, and some Lebanon County and Schuylkill Counties but never really outside of this area too far. Boy, you put it on Zoom though and it opens a world really. I mean, you know, even our website, honestly, I get a notification anytime anybody visits our website, and it just tells me where they're from. Doesn't give me -- it just says the country or whatever. I mean, I'm seeing an uptick from I've seen Italy, Finland. I've seen France, Russia, really. That's been a plus, so the outreach is really spreading a bit. So that's a good thing. LB: So in some ways people who are in rural circumstances that were very, very, very isolated, they could read about the programs we would have, but they couldn't come to the programs we would have because they were in Beaver County or something like that. They are now able to do that. So our Pride festival is going to have this global outreach and stuff, and we're very much excited about that. So there's that too, and I think that that's been a significant thing we've done. We were able to do an equal number of interviews or surveys for our health survey even during this time. And I know you were part of that as well. So let me ask you two last things. The first thing is do you want to talk about the Black Lives Matters? Because we can't really talk about this without talking about that. So what do you think? MD: Absolutely. Wow, how long overdue, right? And shame on us again. And I feel personally like this particular moment right now is different. I really feel as though it's garnered more attention. And some of that attention's been negative, I will tell you. You know, I mean, it's out there. We've seen some protests turn ugly and whatnot, and no matter who's doing the looting and whatnot, you don't want to see that period or have it come to that, obviously. But what's more important than that is the people and what we've done over 400 years to people and in general and especially to those from the black community and people of color, indigenous people. I think Black Lives Matter speaks to all of that. Even though it's centered on black community I think it really has a wider girth, and I think that I'm excited in it to a point of I think it's got some attention, and it's got the potential to maybe carry change and really make some systemic change. And that's not going to be easy. I know that. I mean, you know, and it's not going to happen overnight. But I think that there's a good number of people who are working in the, what you called earlier the nuts and bolts of things in policy and legislation that are woke right now, maybe for the first time ever. And I even know for myself and for my circle of friends, closer circle of friends, and one of them said it last night to me, you know, that she's used this time to really immerse herself in the history and doing some research and really understanding and educating herself about this movement and about what it means and about what we've done and how much we don't even know because it's been kind of written off. You know, if you look back in history, what I studied anyway through school, a lot of it doesn't include a whole other large community of people and their struggle. So it's unfathomable that it's come to this. For this day and age it's disheartening for me because I like to think we've made progress over the years, and especially in the queer community we think okay, yeah, we made great strides. We take one step forward and three back, and we know it's an ongoing process, right. But when you're faced with something like this I think it really puts in a different perspective that we should be so far ahead of this, and I'm disheartened that we're not. And I take onus of a part of that that I perpetuated that just by unconscious bias that I have. So I'm learning. I'm researching. I'm immersing myself in that as well. And I'm an ally, and I'm an anti-racist and I'm doing what I can in my power, anyway, to support the community and to build a better diverse community in general that has equity for everybody. But it's not going to be an easy battle, and it. And it's sad that it's not. And I think that's what's -- that's tough to take and overwhelming that why isn't it already happening? And okay, let's take onus on it that we've done this all these years. Now let's make the changes. Why is that difficult? Why is that hard? Why can't that be done, okay, you know, bang? So it's a journey, and but I think it's a super important one that takes precedence. And I'm proud to stand with my black community and people of color. You know, Reading has a lot of diversity, just like Allentown, right. We're a mixed bad, a melting pot, and it's super important for me as a white cis woman to recognize that even in our own organization and our own families, even in my own circle of friends I believe I'm diverse. I believe I'm open to everybody and accepting, but yet when I look around I think okay, I have a handful of black, indigenous, people of color as friends. Why is that only a handful, like, you know? So it's been an eye-opening thing, and I think it's important that we take a stand. It's no longer okay to sit quietly. And there are people that are behind the scenes that do some work behind the scenes, and one of them I spoke to this morning. He's a good friend of mine. And he said, you know, he read the front page of our paper today, and there was an article in there that was just horrific to see, and it was regarding Dr. Levine, actually. It wasn't about the Black Lives Matter, but it's kind of interconnected, really, right. So yeah, and he said to me, he said I feel like I need to voice a response. I feel like I need to write an article, a letter to the editor, or do something. And this is a person who doesn't normally speak out. He's a definite ally. He's anti-racist. He works behind the scenes, you know. And then he second guessed himself, and he said well, I don't know that I should. I probably do better when I'm working to make these things happen. I don't have to speak out. And I said, you know what, yes, you do. I said and I appreciate all you're doing behind the scenes. I get that, and I'm so appreciative of that, we all are, but it's no longer okay for any of us to stay quiet. And there's no reason why you can't continue to do those things behind the scene but also take a public stand of that. This is not okay. And you know, I think when we see more people doing that, that builds momentum. And so I encourage everybody, you know, with any kind of integrity, I guess, with everything that's going on from Black Lives Matter to transphobia and bigotry and hatred and all of those things that we're facing in our community in general, you know, stand up. Speak out. We all need allies. We know that there are so many people that are supportive, or we believe that there are so many people that are supportive, but actions speak much louder than words. So let's show it. Let's do it. And do it respectfully. And I say that with grace that, you know, I believe you get further along in accomplishing, maybe in gaining solution and promoting change doing it in a fashion that is respectful to everybody involved. We don't have to agree on policy. We don't have to agree on, you know, your politics, my politics, or beliefs or anything like that, but there's no reason that we can't have a conversation and be civil and work to bridge those gaps and make an impact and make some change. It's time. It's way overdue time. LB: Yeah. I was at this meeting that had to do with the Alzheimer's task force yesterday, and they were talking about a big event that we're going to have in May, in November that we have every year. And they wanted the keynote speaker to be somebody who was going to be talking about early detection and stuff. And frankly they do that every year. They always talk about that. Because there's nothing else to talk about. There's no cure, so there's (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible). So they talk about various different ways of caring for people and early detection. But this time we do have people and a new black person that's part of this task force, and other people that are on the task force that are black people are all appointed by the governor. At one point somebody said you know, because they were talking a lot about the issue of Alzheimer's with regard to the people of color community, and one of the people, the white people who's the leader of this, they're actually the liaison of the government said maybe the keynote speaker should be talking about that, should be talking about dementia, the dementia treatment and care with regard to the black community and the people of color community. So here's an interesting piece of information that I didn't know until yesterday, and that is that black people and people who are Latino are twice as likely to get Alzheimer's disease and to have Alzheimer's disease than white people. MD: Wow. And kudos to him for stepping up and saying that, yeah. LB: And everybody -- and so that's, you know, it's a respectful thing to say okay, well, we're going to talk about this in the meeting instead of just looking away and saying yeah, but we really want to talk about early detection because we want everyone to be included. No, it's not just about black people. But the other thing that I went, in effect, I went to this meeting in Harrisburg and spent a lot of hours there trying to get back on the Skype because I had to keep doing it. And yet I learned a piece of information that I've passed on to a number of other people. And I think that's a really important piece of information. MD: That's huge, yeah. LB: And then I was able to add because they were talking about communities that don't get care because they're minorities, and I'm on that committee because I'm representing the queer community, so I said I would like to add that the LGBT community and also the LGBT community of color is in danger by the federal government of being removed from the American Care Act. And I think we need to talk about that. And so I said when you talk about removing a group of people from -- there's intersectionality where it will affect the black and people of color community and indigenous people community as well. And so one way to remove people from care is to -- there's intersectional circumstance. And I said black transgendered people are one of the highest levels of discrimination. And trans people are often routinely removed from care, get [disparate?] care, and now we're saying if they're black and they have dementia, you know, and they're (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) get dementia. So let's talk about that. That's a really interesting thing. And instead of just that kind of tired thing of well, yeah, it really sucks to get Alzheimer's disease. Well, we know that. MD: You make a great point, Liz. And I want to thank you for what you do, for all that you do. You know, I like to think of you of somebody that's an agent of change, and you just gave a great example there where you're able to bring that knowledge and experience you have to other communities and to plant seeds. We're all planting seeds and educating, which is, I think, is the baseline for everything. A lot of this ignorance -- a lot of it is ignorance. LB: I've always thought that one of our primary positions as activists like you and I, and you've done a fabulous job in Reading, and since you've been leading that organization all your input into it has just been so evident that it's made such a difference to the community. MD: Thank you. LB: But I think that education, education is absolutely the primary thing. For our own community, so if somebody calls up and says well, do I need to get married? Let's talk about what this means for you. And I just had a long conversation with somebody who has a kid who's been together for a long time. I said do you own your house together? Do you realize that you're in enormous risk if you're not legally married? I mean, you need to think about why you're not legally married, and have that whole conversation. I had a whole conversation with somebody about what the laws say or discrimination or advocacy or something like that. And it's primarily -- it's information. I think that's really, really -- and education that we have to even do for our own community. And that's a huge important part of a community center is educating our own community. MD: Absolutely, and you know, we would probably think that that wouldn't be necessary, like, you know, but it's -- you're absolutely right. We see that time and time again where people that we serve, you know, they lack the knowledge. They lack the know-how. They're got questions, and rightfully so. That's fine. There's no judgment on that. It's just this is what we're here to do. And so whether it's in the community or without in our local areas and cities and towns, I agree education is our baseline across the board. It's where you got to start, and you build that foundation from there. LB: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love your logo. That's a great logo. MD: Thank you. It's pretty cool. Yeah, I'm fond of that. But I will tell you, the six colors like that, it's made for a little bit of difficulty when you're trying to do shirts or banners. I didn't think about it, but it does. LB: I absolutely said to Adrienne when we were deciding on logo for the center, I said when we had Pennsylvania University Network it had a rainbow flag in it. And I said you know, it actually doesn't matter as much now as it used to because printing doesn't matter quite as much with the colors then. But like t-shirts and banners where they're saying well, each color is an additional cost (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) MD: Exactly, and just to get t-shirts printed, you know, they want one thousand dollars for a couple t-shirts, and I -- what? LB: I know. I know. So I said to Adrienne we have to make our logo a two-color logo, essentially on black and white, but black and another color. So you can do that. Make it (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) MD: Smart. LB: Well, and it was only from years and years of experience of the ridiculous cost. The Valley Gay Press logo had pink in it too which was a whole other cost just -- MD: Oh yeah. LB: Because it's not a standard color. So oh my God I just, I thought the problem with us is we're too fabulous. MD: There you go, right? LB: Two colors aren't enough. MD: That is not. LB: And PFLAG had a really, it just had like two colors, and I thought God, that is so -- we got to remember this. And I was looking at your logo and saying it's more beautiful than our sports logo, which we were called [the squirt?]. And we actually thought about having each one of the little squirty thing be a different color, and I said it's just going to cost us too much money. I know I would look so much better if we were doing it, but -- MD: No, I understand. LB: (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) you know that would have cost a fortune, oh my. MD: I never thought about it ever. It didn't even cross my mind until I made the calls to do that and said holy cow, you know. LB: We thought of that for twenty years. MD: Wow. LB: (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) gala had that too, and then the Valley Gay Press had it, and I just couldn't get -- and then we finally got into this I said it's really going to make -- we have to think about having -- just make it two colors or we're just going to be sorry forever. And I also said make it look okay in black and white too because there are some logos, and I actually, when I was firs doing the paper and stuff where they would give us a color logo, and it was in black and white, the paper was in black and white, and the whole logo, you couldn't even read the logo at all. It just looked like a gray blob. MD: Oh wow. LB: I think it was because all the colors were so close in range that even though in color it was very vibrant, you know, there was like a pink and red and a green and stuff like that, (inaudible) looked like a gray square, you know. And I thought wow, your graphic designer was not paying attention when they created this thing. I once had to redo an entire poster for the summer games for FACT, which was a beautiful poster, but the colors were so similar that you couldn't even tell what the poster said. MD: Wow, it gets lost. LB: (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) lettering was on a color, but the value of the gray in the letter was exactly the same as the value of the pink background or the rose background. You just couldn't see the letters at all. And I thought, you know, they're going to be so mad at me if I do this and not (inaudible). But it's a beautiful logo, and I think it's such a tradeoff. I like the lettering too. I like the style of the lettering. That's a really nice -- what font is that in the LGBT (inaudible)? MD: You know, honestly I don't remember what we chose for that font. We've been trying different fonts, just kind of playing with a little bit, and that was a banner. There's a place here in Berks County for Berks County organizations that they do one free banner to any nonprofit in the county a year, and I heard about this, and I thought well, let's try, because we do the holiday parade here. We participate as an organization, and we usually carry the banner, and we've had some banners that have been horrible, really horrible. So I thought let me try this, and it came in, and there's no holiday parade this year, obviously. So I thought I'm going to put it on the wall and see how it looks. And so actually it looks pretty good up there, and we were working on getting shirts. We've got some polos that we've done, and oddly enough we've done the lettering in black, and we took the logo into white, just did white with it on a couple to try it. And although I like the rainbow colors, obviously, the white looks just as good. I mean, so we're fortunate that it works, but I hear you with the price is incredible. It's, you know, when they say that's six different colors, and there's, you know. LB: (inaudible) it's actually because it's blended it's an overlay, oh my gosh. And yet it's all about fabulous, so that's the thing. MD: It is, right? (laughter) LB: Well, I ask everybody if there was, you know, this is an archive video, and it's possible that people will see this in the future, many, many years from now, and they know what's going to happen. They know who's going to be elected. They know what's going to happen with regard to that. If they're still alive they know if the world was still in place. They know what's going to happen with COVID. But they don't know what individuals who are going through -- that's why we made these things, they don't know what individuals are talking about and how it was affecting them. And I think your interview has been fabulous in terms of the effectiveness of that. But do you have a sort of sound bite to tell those people in the future about what's going on or what you hope for them or something like that or what you -- I don't know. MD: Sure. I really didn't think about that, but that's a great question. I like to have that opportunity. And I guess I would probably say it might sound cliché, a bit, but how you react in the face of adversity is super important and that the challenges that you face on a daily basis, on a yearly basis, you know, they shape who you become, who you are, the community around you, your family, your friends. And so it's important, I think, to really live authentically and to walk in light, in love, and always stay on the positive side of trouble. And John Lewis, an icon that we just lost here, civil rights icon, you know, get into good trouble is one of the things that he said, and so I would urge everybody to take that step forward and get into good trouble. Once you find your purpose and passion, which you can find at the age of twenty or you can find at the age of sixty, me, I just found it a few years ago, quite honestly, and it's what I'm doing now. And so I really, I speak from experience when I say this is that nothing has been more fulfilling for me in my life tan to actually step forward out of my comfort zone, pretty much every single day, honestly, and do what it is I was meant to do and serve, however that may be for those coming behind us anyway. It was my hope that we would leave this planet a better planet for those coming behind us, Liz. Unfortunately we're not there, and I'm not sure we're going to be there throughout lifetime. So part of me wants to apologize, you know, for some of the damage we've done as a culture, as a community, as a nation to our own planet and to our people in general. So I really wish those coming behind us the best, and I'm hopeful that life for them is filled with less challenge and angst than we're experiencing right now. LB: Yeah, that was beautiful. That was a great statement. I forgot to ask you, to make some comments about our secretary of health Rachel Levine, and I just want to throw in there that what you're saying really talks to the heroes of our community, and certainly Dr. Levine is one of them. And I know a lot of our young people are -- a lot of our young people are really devastated by how cruel everyone has been to Dr. Levine solely because she's transgender, not because she -- because we know that she's a brilliant scientist and a brilliant -- And I want all of our young people to know that heroes have to deal with adversity that often has nothing to do with the good things that they're doing all the time. It was true for Superman and Batman, for heaven's sakes. And certainly Dr. Levine is our hero. And you, Michelle, are also our hero. I think that's definitely a true, a hero in Berks County and a hero in the city of Reading doing amazing work. And I think that you're speaking to that as well, and I think you might want to speak just to a couple things about Dr. Levine, and then we'll be done. MD: Yes, absolutely, Liz. And thank you for that, and you should know that -- right back at you. You're that hero as well. As far as Dr. Levine is concerned, you know, you're right. Brilliant scientist, brilliant doctor, wonderful person, and tragically just disrespected. And I'm having a difficulty finding the right words to even describe what's happening with her. And it's just disgusting. And it's really disheartening to see. And it's not just her. And you made that point, and so did she when she just came out and spoke about these disparaging remarks that have been made. You know, the remarks have been coldhearted and nasty ugly. And I will tell you, I often watch the briefings that they do for COVID during the day, and one of the things I found myself doing just a couple days ago was paying more attention to what was scrolling of the comments. And I was overwhelmed, completely overwhelmed and felt like I didn't even know where to begin, so to speak, in combating the hatred that was coming out. And this is a woman who has led us through the, you know, a historic pandemic that we're still in the midst of who gets up there every day and does her thing and is passionate about keeping us safe. And how incredibly vile to attack somebody based on transphobia and hatred. And you know, it's okay to absolutely disagree with somebody and have a difference of opinion, difference of policy. I get that. But where did it become okay to personally attack people with hatred and really harassment? When I read through that, that's kind of what hit my mind was this is harassment. And the second thought that went through my mind is I really hope she doesn't see this. I really hope she doesn't even see it. And at the end of the day what you and I talked about early as education being the vehicle for change, that's what it is. I come back to that as -- and there are going to be people, and there are people, that we can't educate because they don't want to be educated. They don't. It's not going to happen. And that's unfortunate. So I hope that the next generation and other generations coming through have a bit more compassion and respect and tolerance. And I don't even like the word tolerance, to be honest with you. I'm not a fan of that word, so to speak, but in this instance perhaps it fits that we take a step back and we don't need to personally attack people. If you want to have, voice a difference of opinion or have an argument, a constructive argument on something, that's fine, but don't attack people for how they identify, who they are, who they love, any of those things. She doesn't deserve that, and no one does. And I think what people don't realize, and any people with any type of moral, in my opinion, morals or ethics would think wow. Think of the damage this person is doing and the devastation that they're plotting with so many young transgender people out there that are seeing that and who are already facing discrimination and maybe horrific circumstances at home or whatever it may be. You know, the queer community has been discriminated against since the beginning of time, right. We know that. We fought the fight, and we continue to fight it every day. But this is our youth. These are our kids. These are our people. These are human beings. Whether you're a person of color, you're black, indigenous, gay, transgender, however you identify and whoever you are, you know, we're all human beings. We're all human beings. And so we all should treat one another with a bit of compassion. And so I'm really disheartened over this with Dr. Levine, and I will tell that as an organization and for me personally this only fuels me more and ignites a deeper passion in me that we've got work to do. And we've got to change this dialogue, and we got to get busy because there's a lot to do. LB: Well, that's good for you. That's exactly the response that needs to happen, I think, that when you have that kind of attack, well, certainly you point to it and say well, this is a group of people who cannot attack the person based on the intelligent things they say. They don't want to acknowledge what they're saying is true, so they attack a person in the personal way. And that's what's happened to every minority, every disenfranchised class ever. That's what the -- lack of intelligence always attacks somebody from the personal. MD: Absolutely. LB: -- level from how they look, something like that, has nothing to do with the actual things that they're doing and why they're doing it and stuff like that and the information that she's bringing to people. People don't want her. They don't want this to be true. MD: Exactly. LB: They don't want this to be true. They don't want it to be true that there is this pandemic and that the only way to stop it is to wear masks and stay inside and get a vaccine, probably soon, and social distance. They just don't want it to be true. MD: It's willful ignorance, right. It is willful ignorance, and that's pretty damn dangerous, honestly, in my opinion, you know. LB: It is. Well, thank you so much. I really, really appreciate you taking a lot of time, more time than I asked for, for this terrific interview. And you had such interesting insights, and I appreciate it, and I appreciate all the terrific work that you're doing. Thank you very much. And I'm going to turn the recorder off, and thank you. MD: Thank you, Liz. Thank you. I really appreciated being here. Thanks for your time. LB: Great. END OF VIDEO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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01:47:27
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Michelle Dech, July 31, 2020
Description
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Michelle Dech talks about how the current COVID19 pandemic is effecting her. She talks about being the Director of the LGBT Community Center of Reading/Berks County and some personal experiences with emergency hospital visiting at the very height of the first part of the pandemic.
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PH40_22
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
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2020-07-31
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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48f404933fe6bcd1b11ce9cfc41ea6e7
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
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In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Liz Bradbury
Interviewee
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Roberta Meek
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_21.xml
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5.4 July 15th, 2020 Roberta Meek, July 15, 2020 PH40_21 01:24:08 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Roberta Meek Liz Bradbury video/mpeg MeekRoberta_20200715_video.mp4 1.0:|37(10)|60(10)|95(2)|132(14)|167(14)|192(9)|223(9)|252(18)|285(12)|312(9)|345(4)|384(5)|413(18)|420(10)|481(9)|514(13)|551(5)|586(12)|623(12)|658(6)|697(6)|742(8)|773(10)|812(4)|843(13)|874(12)|907(5)|948(5)|981(2)|1018(7)|1063(12)|1094(6)|1121(10)|1150(8)|1181(12)|1208(10)|1239(13)|1276(10)|1305(5)|1332(4)|1363(16)|1392(21)|1425(10)|1458(3)|1489(10)|1524(13)|1565(10)|1602(9)|1633(4)|1666(2)|1703(3)|1734(8)|1779(9)|1816(11)|1859(10)|1896(9)|1929(16)|1966(5)|2007(2)|2050(12)|2079(13)|2118(4)|2139(16)|2168(3)|2193(15)|2224(16)|2255(12)|2298(10)|2347(12)|2386(5)|2421(9)|2446(9)|2483(3)|2504(14)|2539(9)|2564(7)|2591(14)|2650(4)|2701(7)|2738(2)|2769(8)|2810(9)|2839(7)|2872(9)|2881(5) 0 https://youtu.be/PVsIezhR4nc YouTube video 0 Introductions LB: Hi. Okay. And I’m going to start the audio recording. And the recording is working. So I’m going to read you this -- oh, I have to turn off my phone -- I think I did that already. Yes. And I’m going to pin you.
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 ; RM: You’re going to what?
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 ; LB: Well that’s a Zoom thing that I didn’t learn until the fifth video, where it pins on you so that no matter what I say, it doesn’t flip back --
 ; Liz Bradbury ; Roberta Meek ; Zoom 0 295 Meek's Phased Retirement RM: Well I’m in a phased retirement, so I’m only working part-time. But no. I haven’t been terminated. I teach at Muhlenberg College, and actually I went online before they did, but we went online around the same time as everybody else -- mid-March -- and finished the semester that way. And I intend to teach online until, you know, until we have safety precautions for me and my family.
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 ; LB: Sure. So you’re teaching part-time then?
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 ; RM: I’m only teaching part-time. I only teach two courses a year, and the way I’ve spread it out, it’s one course per semester. And I’ve also done teaching online before, so it wasn’t like a shock to my system, like it was to a lot of people who had never taught online -- Liz Bradbury ; Muhlenberg ; Online ; Part-Time ; Phase Retirement ; Roberta Meek 0 487 Muhlenberg's COVID Plans RM: -- institution. And I also felt that, from an equity standpoint, that -- I don’t know if any of this is relevant -- but from an equity standpoint, I really felt that we had gotten some emails saying that as we return from spring break, that we, as professors, needed to be open to the idea of having some students learn through remote kinds of possibilities, because they might be, you know, immunocompromised, or those kinds of things. And when I read that, I was like, “I have no idea if anyone in my class is affected by this. But what is that going to feel like for the one student in a class that might have to do this? First of all, it outs them as having an illness, which is really their prerogative to not share.” Equity ; Roberta Meek ; Spring Break 0 739 Approach to Teaching Online RM: So remote learning, for me -- I can’t speak to everybody else who was teaching across the globe. But, for me, what it meant is -- I’m fortunate that I teach media and communication, Africana studies, and history courses. And so this course that I was teaching in the spring was “Media and Social Movements,” which was really apropos, as those students were leaving that class and Black Lives Matter exploded. They should have some tools, based on my class.
 ; Africana studies ; Black Lives Matter ; Remote Learning ; Roberta Meek 0 951 The State of Higher Education RM: There’s no way I will step foot in a classroom. I think, unfortunately, education in general -- certainly higher ed -- is really in dire straits, because, you know, Muhlenberg -- like most of the colleges in the country -- not all, but most of the colleges -- particularly small colleges -- are trying to bring students back, because their existence depends on that.
 ; Education ; Muhlenberg ; Roberta Meek 0 1060 "De-densify" Campus RM: And even if you supposedly -- what they’re calling this now -- “de-densify” the campus -- I’m sorry, but those students -- even the most paranoid of them, I just cannot imagine -- you know, that’s when you have sexual awakenings, you have social awakenings, you have racial identity awakenings. That’s what the on-campus, small liberal arts college experience -- and even the bigger universities -- that’s why you pay the big bucks to do --
 ; "De-densify" ; Liberal Arts ; Roberta Meek 0 1353 Privilege to Social Distance LB: Right. Yeah.
 ; RM: -- you know. And one of the things, again, that I kept saying to my students -- and to my family -- it’s like, “We are absolutely blessed and lucky that we can social distance -- that we can stay in our homes and be safe.” I mean, that is an absolute privilege (laughs) that we have that opportunity. And the most that we have is inconvenience. So like when people are whining and bitching about whatever, it’s like, “You are inconvenienced. That’s the extent” --
 ; Inconvenience ; Liz Bradbury ; Roberta Meek ; Social Distance 0 1563 Effects of the Spanish Flu with the Sedition Act LB: And so that’s why we don’t know very much about it. And it’s one of the reasons that I’m really glad we’re collecting these pieces of information now, because there isn’t a lot of -- there’s certainly not any public information -- there have been journals and stuff that people had written, saying, well, you know, Hilda Doolittle -- who was a famous Imagist poet, who worked with Ezra Pound, and did all sorts of significant things -- and she was from Bethlehem. She was very famous. And she was absolutely distraught by the fact that her brother and her husband had both died of the flu -- one of them it had been a thing from the war, and then her brother died. And, you know, and then she got it, and she nearly died, and it influenced her life. And yet, when you read that, you don’t really go, “Oh, yeah. Because everybody had it.” Everybody had it. One out of three people in the world had it. Bethlehem ; Ezra Pound ; Hilda Doolittle ; Liz Bradbury ; Spanish Flu 0 1849 Staying in Touch with Family RM: Absolutely. It’s actually been a godsend, because, first of all, I proposed -- and it’s happening now -- where my siblings and I talk every week on a Zoom call. And my sisters and I talk frequently -- certainly not once a week, but frequently. But my brothers, as much as I’m close to them, I typically might talk to them a couple times a year or whatever, you know -- not very frequently. And this, you know, we talk to each other religiously, except if there’s like Father’s Day or Mother’s Day or something like that -- we’ve skipped that week -- which is absolutely important to me. Because it’s not just a phone call, and it’s not where each of us is calling each other -- we all get to see each other -- Father's Day ; Mother's Day ; Roberta Meek ; Zoom 0 2081 The Reason for Retirement RM: And that’s one of the reasons I wanted to retire, because the world was literally falling apart, and it’s like the one thing that keeps me sane and happy are the younger grandkids, who don’t have any clue what’s going on, and, you know, that innocence -- and also it gives me the inspiration to like just keep fighting -- because, you know, you’ve got to for them. So yeah. So I’ve been actually watching them -- I didn’t watch them four full days a week until recently -- but, you know, that was the plan for me. And it’s been great, because, you know, their family -- which is two older boys -- one who just graduated from college, and one who’s going into 12th grade -- and two working parents -- there’s no way they could get any work done --
 ; Grandkids ; Roberta Meek 0 2332 The Pandemic's Effect on the U.S. RM: I mean, it’s ridiculous. So I’m really concerned about our ability to survive -- as a political entity for sure -- but what does that mean if we already see these disproportionate ways that it’s affecting certain communities? What’s it going to end up? So I have a lot of fear about this. The one hopeful thing, I will say, about the pandemic honestly is that the largest protest movement ever in the United State’s history is happening.
 ; Pandemic ; Protest ; Roberta Meek ; Survive 0 2563 Comparing the U.S. and the British Empire LB: It is a big deal. Yeah. It’s interesting. I have sort of been thinking a lot about the incredibly stupid things that Great Britain did when it was a world power, you know -- the sun never sets on the British Empire. They, in effect, owned everybody and colonized everybody, and were horrible about it. And there was this enormous one stupid mistake after another, where they just kept doing it, and kept doing it and doing it. And, you know, I’m sure that a lot of Americans today think the United States will never be not the power that it is. British Empire ; Great Britain ; Liz Bradbury ; United States 0 2853 The End of the Spanish Flu LB: It’s interesting -- the flu epidemic of 1918, there were two things -- one of the things was at the end of fifteen months, it disappeared -- it literally ended. And some people think that it’s because the flu mutated -- because mutation can be good, as well as bad. And so we don’t know what that’s going to be -- it could be mutating so it’s not bad for pe-- you know, it doesn’t make people sick anymore. And the other thing that happened was that one out of three people in the entire world had had the disease. So there was a, you know, herd immunity, because --
 ; Flu Epidemic ; Herd Immunity ; Liz Bradbury ; Mutation 0 3032 Situation of Social Distancing and Masks LB: Yeah.
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 ; RM: -- and we were standing there one last moment with the kids. And I said to them, you know, “Can you just hold on?” Because if we can walk away, and whatever, and they were staying -- and she goes, “Oh” -- and she’s talking the whole time, right -- so it was like, “We’re just going to walk over here.” So she’s like walking and talking behind me, and I’m like, “Are you fucking kidding me?” But then I have to blame myself, because I didn’t have my mask on at that moment. Liz Bradbury ; Masks ; Roberta Meek ; Social Distancing 0 3302 Safety During the Pandemic RM: -- not only do I want to keep my family safe, but it keeps their family safe -- because it’s less people in that space.
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 ; LB: Right. Right. Yeah. Well we feel the same way. We haven’t been out of the house, except for a couple of doctor’s appointments. And, you know, they’ll say to me, “Can you go over to the center and fix something?” I said, “Well, I’m going at Sunday morning at six o’clock, and I don’t want anybody to have been in there for two days.” And we never have more than one person at a time in the building, and they wipe down -- I mean they’re very, very careful. But I don’t want to be in the building, even if there’s somebody there the day before. And I’m not -- Families ; Indoors ; Liz Bradbury ; Roberta Meek ; Safety 0 3603 Lessons from the Pandemic RM: -- a treatment or a vaccine. I mean that’s what Americans need to understand -- or, you know, reading about returning to school, there was an article -- and I can’t remember if it was The New York Times or The Washington Post -- it was one of the two of those. And it was talking about what can we learn from other countries -- because of course it was riffing off of stupid comments about how everything has opened in other countries, and blah, blah, blah, and they haven’t had -- it’s been perfect, you know. But, when reading that, it was like, “All of this is great. But it’s meaningless in a country that hasn’t followed any of the things they should have followed.” Those other examples, you know, were on complete lockdown, or they were on -- like they had compliance across, you know -- obviously not one hundred percent -- but they had real compliance --
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 ; LB: Right.
 ; Liz Bradbury ; Roberta Meek ; The New York Times ; The Washington Post ; Treatment ; Vaccine 0 3854 Queer Dating Apps LB: No. (sighs) Actually, I was just talking to somebody -- a young man -- who was saying that he, you know, would look at the things, and if the person was saying that they would hook-up, he said, “Why would I do that? That’d be crazy.” (laughs) He called it the “Hi and bye” apps. (laughter) It was like that’s what Grindr is, is “Hi and bye.” (laughter) But he said, like, “I’m not going to say “hi” at all if the person is saying, you know, “I don’t care about the thing, you know, I don’t care about COVID.” Well, bye -- so he said, “It’s just ‘bye’ for me.” He was (laughs) great about that. I said, “Did you just make that up?” He said, “Yeah. There’s another name for it” -- which I don’t know, of course -- but I didn’t think it was appropriate for the video, so I made it up -- “Hi and bye” (laughter) apps. (coughs) So you’re talking about --
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 ; RM: It feels like even if I were -- I mean I really haven’t bothered with dating sites for a long time -- but even if I were, this would not be the moment for me to be doing that. COVID ; Dating Apps ; Grindr ; Liz Bradbury ; Roberta Meek 0 4230 Privilege to Not Work RM: -- you know. Within my immediate circle -- in terms of my family here in Allentown -- none of us are, you know. But, again, my daughter-in-law -- some of her family has to continue to go into work. So, you know, and some of them have some health issues that worry me with that. And I just pray that, you know, that doesn’t happen. But no. I’ve been very, very fortunate --
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 ; LB: Yeah.
 ; Allentown ; Liz Bradbury ; Roberta Meek ; Work 0 4467 Activism with Teaching RM: I’ve been on a town hall with Ce-Ce Gerlach. So I’m still doing things -- and my teaching I really do consider to be an extension of my activism -- but it is a weird moment in my life where, you know, it’s the first moment I can think of -- with any kind of protest that’s been important to me -- where I can’t take that risk. And I feel really guilty about being privileged enough to say, “I can’t take that risk to be out and about.” But I can’t take that risk. So it’s brought up a lot of weird emotions for me.
 ; Ce-Ce Gerlach ; Roberta Meek ; Town Hall 0 4756 Police Brutality Caught on Camera LB: They lied, and they got caught because of the video. And that’s what I was trying to say to this young woman -- the fact that there’s video all over the place is -- and I was just like -- this was a person in their 20s -- and I said, “Do you really think this hasn’t been happening forever?” (laughs) I mean it’s just that nobody was driving by with their phone (laughs), you know. And obviously the person who made the first video was very motivated to make the video too -- they were very, very concerned.
 ; Liz Bradbury ; Police 0 5035 Closing Remarks LB: Well thank you so much for doing this. This was just -- first of all, it’s --
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 ; RM: You’re welcome.
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 ; LB: -- really fun to be able to see you nonstop for an hour and --
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 ; RM: I know. (laughter)
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 ; LB: So I’m going to stop recording. Thank you very much, Roberta Meek. I’m going to stop this n--
 ; Liz Bradbury ; Roberta Meek 0 MovingImage In this interview, Roberta Meek talks about her experiences with COVID-19 along with how she is going to handle teaching in a phased retirement. Furthermore, she goes on to talk about her role as an activist in Allentown. Overall, she talks about COVID-19 and how it has affected her teaching. Roberta Meek 2020-07-15 LIZ BRADBURY: There we go. There we go. ROBERTA MEEK: Okay. LB: Hi. Okay. And I'm going to start the audio recording. And the recording is working. So I'm going to read you this -- oh, I have to turn off my phone -- I think I did that already. Yes. And I'm going to pin you. RM: You're going to what? LB: Well that's a Zoom thing that I didn't learn until the fifth video, where it pins on you so that no matter what I say, it doesn't flip back -- RM: Oh. -- to me. RM: Right, right, right. LB: Because I tend to go, "Uh huh." And in the first videos, every time I went, "Uh huh," the picture came back to me. And I'm like, how do you make that stop? So now I know. Okay. And, let's see, I did that -- turn off phone, turned on recording. Okay. Good. With this project, Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community, collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences, from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury, and I'm here with Roberta Meek to talk about her experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of the COVID-19 pandemic, as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT community archive. We are meeting on Zoom on July 15th, 2020. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start, can you please state your full name, and spell it for me? RM: Roberta Meek. Roberta is R-O-B-E-R-T-A, and Meek is 'M', like Mary, E-E-K, like Kenneth. LB: Thank you. Will you please share your birth date? RM: November 24th, 1956. LB: And what town are you in? You're in Allentown. Is that correct? RM: I live in Allentown, Pennsylvania. Yeah. LB: Okay. So this is the consent part -- do you consent to this interview today? RM: I do, Liz Bradbury. (laughter) LB: Thank you. Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable formats? RM: Sure I do. LB: Okay. Do you consent to the LGBT archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats, including films, articles, websites, presentations, and possible other formats we don't even know about today? RM: I do. LB: Do you understand that you will have thirty days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview and identify any parts you'd like to delete and/or withdraw -- or withdraw the entire interview -- from the project? RM: That's great. LB: I hope you don't do that, but, you know. Okay. This is the identity part. So what is your zip code? RM: 18104. LB: Now this says, "What is your age?" You just told what year you were born, but it says, "What is your age?" RM: I'm sixty-three. LB: Okay. RM: I'm going to be sixty-four this year. LB: Me too. (laughter) So this says, "How do you identify within the LGBT community?" So that can be any way that you identify, however you want to say. RM: I identify as a woman, I identify as a lesbian woman. LB: Okay. And one would say cisgender? RM: Cisgender. Yes. LB: Okay. So I sent you a list of things to think about. We certainly don't have to talk about all of those things. You could talk about -- RM: Oops, I didn't look that up. LB: Doesn't matter. I will just mention them as we go along. So one of the first questions we ask everybody is, who's in the house with you? Are you by yourself -- I know that's not true. So who are you seeing regularly, and who's in the house with you? RM: Who's in the house with me is my daughter -- a grown daughter who shares the house with me. And who I see regularly is my son, daughter-in-law, and their four children. LB: Okay. RM: We've basically made it so that we're one household, even though we are living in two spaces. LB: Yeah. RM: In terms of true interaction, it's only us interacting, even though they see some other people -- like her family. But they see them from a distance -- they socially distance with them. LB: Yeah. Okay. RM: So that's the only people I see up close and in person. LB: Yeah. So the reason we ask these questions is because people are really affected by how many people they're -- RM: Absolutely. LB: -- closely related to. And so we've been asking people if their employment has been terminated -- or what are you doing now, in terms of that kind of stuff? RM: Well I'm in a phased retirement, so I'm only working part-time. But no. I haven't been terminated. I teach at Muhlenberg College, and actually I went online before they did, but we went online around the same time as everybody else -- mid-March -- and finished the semester that way. And I intend to teach online until, you know, until we have safety precautions for me and my family. LB: Sure. So you're teaching part-time then? RM: I'm only teaching part-time. I only teach two courses a year, and the way I've spread it out, it's one course per semester. And I've also done teaching online before, so it wasn't like a shock to my system, like it was to a lot of people who had never taught online -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- or, I should say, we went remote, because we were not doing online teaching, because we hadn't constructed our classes that way. But I did not freak out over that opportunity. LB: So people may be looking at this someday way in the future, and they may not understand what you mean by "remote." RM: Yeah. LB: And I don't know. So (laughs) could you sort of describe what that's like, and what that looks like, and how many people, and that kind of stuff? RM: Well what happened with the pandemic is not -- let me backtrack a little bit. When I taught online, I taught online the previous two summers. And at Muhlenberg, which is a small liberal arts college, we went through a semester-long preparation for doing that so that we would really be teaching from the perspective of a liberal arts experience, not kind of a disconnected kind of learning on your own kind of thing that many online programs -- at least in the past -- had been. I would say that even schools that are not liberal arts schools are certainly doing that better than they used to. But Muhlenberg is actually being recognized nationally, now, because of how well we do this. So I had that experience -- one that I had been resistant to for a very long time. But the experience was really mind-blowing. I mean it was such a fabulous experience. I had students who were more engaged in the online class than they'd ever been -- LB: Huh. RM: -- in a face to face class. Because it equalizes the playing field, in terms of discussions, and those kinds of things -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- which happen in various formats. So when this started to play out, it was starting to be of concern right before spring break. And then after spring break, you know, people came back. And over spring break, I had decided I was taking my class online -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- because I was not going to step back on a campus when I'm in a phased retirement. I'm not going to go kill myself (laughs) for the one class that I need to give to this -- LB: Right. RM: -- institution. And I also felt that, from an equity standpoint, that -- I don't know if any of this is relevant -- but from an equity standpoint, I really felt that we had gotten some emails saying that as we return from spring break, that we, as professors, needed to be open to the idea of having some students learn through remote kinds of possibilities, because they might be, you know, immunocompromised, or those kinds of things. And when I read that, I was like, "I have no idea if anyone in my class is affected by this. But what is that going to feel like for the one student in a class that might have to do this? First of all, it outs them as having an illness, which is really their prerogative to not share." LB: Yeah. RM: And so I explained to my students that, you know, the school hadn't decided yet what it was going to do, but I had decided that, for fairness -- not just because I was afraid to return to campus -- but I was like, "We should all be in this." If one student has to be quote-unquote "Disadvantaged" by that -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- let's make it an advantage for all of us. So they accepted that. And I taught my first online session the day that Muhlenberg announced that within that week they would be sending students home. And they were one of the early schools to do it -- they were on the cusp of everybody else doing it. So I was really proud of them for actually making that decision. But what it means to teach remotely when you have not taught remotely is -- and I got most of this feedback from students, because I would do a check-in every -- we actually were going to do it asynchronously -- meaning that nobody had to be on talking to one another -- because, you know, I didn't know where students lived, I didn't know what their home situations were like. But I had students who said, "We really, really, really" -- especially first year students -- who wanted to meet synchronously -- meaning that we would have Zoom sessions. LB: Yeah. RM: And so I made it so that we met twice a week, normally, in the evening -- because I taught evening classes, rather than during the day -- but to traditional-age students. And because of what they wanted to do, I said, "Fine. We will meet twice a week, and whoever can show up can show up. But nobody will be penalized if they are unable to show up -- that the work that gets done can get done asynchronously. But our discussions, I will record" -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- "and so they're available to everybody to try to make, you know, again, equity, you know." LB: Yeah. RM: And so, you know, I did not record the first, let's say, ten minutes of each session, because I wanted to give students a chance to say -- kind of what you're doing with me -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- which is, "How is this impacting you?" LB: Yeah. RM: "What's happening? How are you feeling?" And a lot of them expressed concern and frustration, because having all of their classes online, with few teachers who had taught online -- which meant that most of their professors had, you know, two days of training or whatever. And so a lot of faculty didn't understand that you can't just translate from what you do in-person to online. LB: Right, right. RM: So this was not online teaching, in the sense of what I had been trained to do for the summer. LB: Right. RM: But there are some basic tenants -- like it does not mean that the workload can be the same -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- particularly under the circumstances. It doesn't mean that, you know, the expectations can be the same -- that there needs to be some flexibility. And a lot of professors did not get that -- which I don't blame them. They had no idea. It was like teachers across the globe were (laughs) forced into this -- LB: Right. Yeah. RM: -- remote form of teaching. And you really have to alter things, because the kinds of things that people get face-to-face -- you know, it depends on the students -- whether they're visual learners or oral learners or tactile learners, you know -- all of those things change in cyberspace. LB: Right. RM: So remote learning, for me -- I can't speak to everybody else who was teaching across the globe. But, for me, what it meant is -- I'm fortunate that I teach media and communication, Africana studies, and history courses. And so this course that I was teaching in the spring was "Media and Social Movements," which was really apropos, as those students were leaving that class and Black Lives Matter exploded. They should have some tools, based on my class. LB: Right. RM: But anyway, what that meant is -- I'm fortunate that -- unlike a math or a science or those kinds of classes where you have to get through a particular amount of material so that the person can go to the next class -- I don't have those restraints. So one of the things I was able to do is, you know, this was supposed to be "Media and Social Movements" that would take them from like post-World War II essentially to the present. I usually only get to about the eighties or nineties, (laughs) but I told them we're probably going to get to the seventies, if we're lucky -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- because I don't want to overload you with, you know, reading upon reading upon reading -- and reading in lieu of what we might do in class -- LB: Right. RM: -- those kinds of things. So I really altered everything. And they were really appreciative of that. And I would say I still had at least about fifty percent of my class showing up on a Tuesday and a Thursday -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- to talk. And in my mind, if you take something away from my class -- if you learn something -- that's really what I care about, right. LB: Yeah. RM: And so I do feel like they got a lot out of the class. But they also got a lot out of that because of the fact that they had the opportunity to just say what was going on in their lives, right. LB: Yeah. RM: Versus an online class, where I know, the student knows, everybody knows we're going to be doing this in an online format -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- and you design your class -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- in a way to have robust discussions, even though people may not be face to face. Because the classes that I taught were asynchronous, so nobody ever met, you know -- and yet, as I said, you can have a really, really wonderful experience in spite of that. But that's not what we were doing in -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- the pandemic. And when you think about education -- again, certainly across the United States -- but across the globe -- what an absolute shock and culture shock this was for people. It's amazing that we made it through -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- to be honest with you. Yeah. So that was remote versus online. And I will be teaching online for the fall -- meaning designing my course for that purpose. LB: Yeah. RM: And, in my mind, I intend to tell them I will do that until we have a vaccine, really. LB: Right, right. RM: I'm not going to take that risk. And I have next year, and then my final year of my phased retirement is '21, '22 -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- 2021, '22. And, you know, possibly online by then too -- but certainly through next year. LB: Yeah. RM: There's no way I will step foot in a classroom. I think, unfortunately, education in general -- certainly higher ed -- is really in dire straits, because, you know, Muhlenberg -- like most of the colleges in the country -- not all, but most of the colleges -- particularly small colleges -- are trying to bring students back, because their existence depends on that. LB: Right. RM: But, unfortunately, because we live in this capitalist society, it means -- that should not be the basis upon which people are returning -- LB: Right. RM: -- especially when you've trained faculty, now, to be able to teach online -- that's what you should be doing, because it is not safe. LB: Right. RM: It is not safe. LB: Right. RM: I mean at eighteen, nineteen, twenty, I couldn't have given a shit about what anybody told me the rules were. LB: Right. RM: I would do what I wanted to do. And why would you be at a small liberal arts college and not really socialize with your friends? It's just not even remotely realistic. LB: Right. Well it's like (laughs) daycare, you know, in the same way -- you take your kids to daycare, they're going to get sick. RM: Right. LB: Kids at college are going to get sick. RM: Right. LB: I got sick every year I was in college. RM: Well, and they -- right. And, I mean, when you think about the health protocols under normal circumstances -- LB: Right. RM: -- with -- whether it's the flu, or norovirus, or why students have to get particular inoculations going to college that the average public doesn't get -- because of the environment of living in dorms. LB: Yeah. RM: And even if you supposedly -- what they're calling this now -- "de-densify" the campus -- I'm sorry, but those students -- even the most paranoid of them, I just cannot imagine -- you know, that's when you have sexual awakenings, you have social awakenings, you have racial identity awakenings. That's what the on-campus, small liberal arts college experience -- and even the bigger universities -- that's why you pay the big bucks to do -- LB: Right. RM: -- that. LB: It is. RM: And I cannot imagine that at that age, when you think you're invulnerable -- LB: Sure. RB: -- that -- you know, and I don't fault them for that. I mean that's what they're supposed to do, you know. So it really frightens me that they're -- I can't imagine that they're going to successfully stay open with the arbitrary deadlines that they have for, you know, "We're going to come back a week early, and we're going to end before Thanksgiving" -- what? Who told you that, you know, something isn't going to attack you in the meantime? Come on. Be realistic. LB: Yeah. RM: And that college students won't leave the campus between now and November. (laughs) I mean it's like come on. LB: No kidding. RM: Yeah. LB: That it could work out that way. And then there's still that sort of system circumstances -- like physical infrastructure systems that have to do with legionnaires, you know, or the cruise ships, or something. RM: Right. LB: There are older buildings there that have air circulation that have -- RM: Absolutely. LB: -- absolutely no idea how that circulates. And we know that people on cruise ships where every single person was infected, you know. How could that not happen in a dorm building, or a building that was converted from a house into a dorm, you know, that was one hundred -- RM: 1940. Right. (laughs) LB: -- if they could do that. They're not going to rush in and put a HEPA filter on every single system. RM: Right. And where's the money going to come from? LB: Yeah. They're not going to do that. It's a terribly complicated thing, and yet -- RM: It really is. And it's really particularly complicated in the United States, where we are -- I swear to God -- the most selfish humans on the planet -- LB: Yeah. RM: And, you know, it's exposed every problem. LB: Yeah. RM: Like every problem that many of us have known existed -- like it is out in the open -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- you know. This whole argument about essential workers, and -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- heroes. Essential? It's called underpaid -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- unable to live on their "living wage" -- LB: Right. RM: -- people who are literally sacrificing their lives. And that one percent -- those billionaires -- cannot exist, right. The whole system falls apart. LB: Right. RM: The whole -- excuse my language -- fucking system falls apart. LB: Yeah. RM: The moment that there's a threat to those quote unquote "illegal immigrants" -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- those underpaid human beings, right -- all of that is really just exposing how really sick we are. LB: Yeah. RM: And that's not going to turn around, and the capitalistic system isn't going to be able to turn around until they actually get treatment and a vaccine. And yet, you know, the push is on to be back to normal. There is no normal anymore. LB: No. RM: There's not even a new normal anymore. LB: Yeah. RM: Anyway. LB: Yeah. This interview, you know, you can talk about whatever you want -- and I don't think we can separate Black Lives Matter, or the political circumstances, or poverty, or anything from what's going on with COVID -- RM: You cannot. LB: -- and I hope that people in the future will look at COVID-19 and see the vast differences between statistic-- just if you look at the statistics between -- RM: Absolutely. LB: -- other countries and our country -- RM: That's right. LB: -- and why it's like that. RM: That's right. LB: And it's like that because of capitalism, and it's also like that because of leadership right now. RM: It's because of that, based on leadership, capitalism, racism -- LB: Right. RM: -- structural inequality -- I mean it has shown every fracture in our system that has been there all along, with, you know, people not wanting to recognize that. But, I mean, this didn't happen to us because we're some unlucky -- LB: Right. RM: -- group. This happened because of the way systems operate. LB: Yeah. RM: And they absolutely cannot be separated -- LB: Right. Yeah. RM: -- you know. And one of the things, again, that I kept saying to my students -- and to my family -- it's like, "We are absolutely blessed and lucky that we can social distance -- that we can stay in our homes and be safe." I mean, that is an absolute privilege (laughs) that we have that opportunity. And the most that we have is inconvenience. So like when people are whining and bitching about whatever, it's like, "You are inconvenienced. That's the extent" -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- "of what is happening to you" -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- "because it is an absolute privilege that you have the opportunity to make a choice" -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- "to not be out there risking," you know -- I am absolutely privileged that I don't have to step back on that campus. And, frankly, if they forced me too, I would say, "Fine, I'll go into full retirement right now." So I'm at a stage in my life -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- where, you know -- going back to COVID, you know -- and it hasn't felt as impactful to me as it might have 15, 20 years ago -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- in terms of where I am in my life, you know. The people that I care about, I get to see. Now I can say, if my daughter was still in D.C. and kind of trapped there and hadn't returned home, or if I was unable -- like in some countries where basically you literally could not see my son and his family because you weren't allowed out of your own home -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- I would probably not be doing very well at all. But because, you know, I am really, really fortunate to be able to continue, you know -- in our little circle it hasn't felt hugely different than (laughs) life before. LB: Yeah. RM: But for my grandson, who, you know, was supposed to graduate from Muhlenberg -- with no graduation, with no ability to have senior week, to probably have no ability to find a job anytime soon -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- you know -- that's a whole other space to be in. So this is really something. I mean every day I wake up and think, "I'm living in the upside down world. What in the hell is this?" LB: Yeah. RM: And, "It's a nightmare." And, "It must be changing by tomorrow," you know. And it's not. It's just getting worse, because of the fact that fools -- or a lack of leadership is there. And not only lack of leadership -- that evil leadership is -- LB: Yeah, right. Right. RM: -- in place in this country. LB: Yeah. I agree with that. And no president to be ready for any of the things that are happening -- I mean people have talked about this sort of as a hypothetical, "What if this terrible thing happened?" And I actually -- in all of the art history classes I've been talking about in the last few years, I've been talking about the flu epidemic of 1918. And we talk about that over and over and over again, way before we came into this. I talk about it all the time, because my grandmother died during it. RM: Oh. LB: And it affected every single family. I mean fifty million people died during that. And one of the things was was because it was World War I, there was the Sedition Act -- that no one could mention that people were dying, or you would go to prison. RM: Yeah. LB: And so that's why we don't know very much about it. And it's one of the reasons that I'm really glad we're collecting these pieces of information now, because there isn't a lot of -- there's certainly not any public information -- there have been journals and stuff that people had written, saying, well, you know, Hilda Doolittle -- who was a famous Imagist poet, who worked with Ezra Pound, and did all sorts of significant things -- and she was from Bethlehem. She was very famous. And she was absolutely distraught by the fact that her brother and her husband had both died of the flu -- one of them it had been a thing from the war, and then her brother died. And, you know, and then she got it, and she nearly died, and it influenced her life. And yet, when you read that, you don't really go, "Oh, yeah. Because everybody had it." Everybody had it. One out of three people in the world had it. RM: Yeah. LB: It changed the world. RM: Everything. LB: And, you know, one of the interesting things about the history of plagues is that the plague in the Dark Ages -- the Middle Ages -- actually -- (laughs) -- this is a terrible thing to say -- but it elevated the positions of poor people, because so many poor people died, that workers could charge more to the rich people who hadn't died. And it literally was like, you know -- it wiped out half the population -- RM: Yeah. LB: -- and most of the people who died who were poor, because the rich people could hide -- just the same -- RM: Yeah. LB: -- as it is now. RM: Yeah. LB: And so suddenly, like skilled workers -- and it also wiped out skilled workers. So if you had people who were like stone masons -- suddenly there weren't any stone masons. So they could say, "Well, you know, yeah, I'll do this for you, but I'm charging the big bucks." And, in some ways, people can say, "Yeah, we'll do this for you, but I'm not working for minimum wage anymore" -- RM: Yeah. LB: -- "this is ridiculous." RM: Yeah. LB: And I have to say that the interviews that I've been doing for the HIV/AIDS folks -- all of those people are our age, or older. RM: Yeah. LB: Well people who are our age often are more likely to have figured out their lives -- not everybody -- RM: Yeah. LB: -- but all of the people that I interviewed are either retired, and they have an income, or they're in a job that they've been in in a long time, or they own their companies -- some of them own their companies. So their financial circumstances were stable -- RM: Yeah. LB: -- compared to young people. And also, because of HIV/AIDS, these folks were extraordinarily careful -- so they haven't known very many people who had been sick and died of COVID-19. But now you're the sixth interview of COVID, and every one of the first five people that I've interviewed had essential workers in their family, who were in terribly stressful, nervous situations, very, very at-risk, and had multiple people that had died in their families. RM: Yeah. LB: Most of them were younger, and they were all people of color, and they all had a variety of -- larger families -- and they had more uncertainty in their lives. And it was so significantly different. It's been vastly different -- RM: Yeah. LB: -- compared to the other guys that I interview -- which is good for me, because most of the people I know as my friends are in that older age groups, so it's -- RM: Right. LB: -- like you, you know -- I'm thinking, well -- RM: Yeah. LB: -- [you live?] at home, and she's -- you know, that kind of stuff. RM: Yeah. LB: But when you start to talk about people who are in their -- RM: That's right. LB: -- forties or thirties or twenties -- RM: Yeah. LB: -- they're in tough, tough, tough situations. RM: Absolutely. LB: And some of them are very cavalier, and you want to go, "No. Don't take this level of risk." RM: Yeah. LB: And, just like you said, you can't say that to an eighteen-year-old -- RM: Right, right. LB: -- you know. That's why they send eighteen-year-olds to war. (laughter) RM: Yeah. LB: It's true. RM: It's true. I hadn't thought of that, but that's true. (laughs) LB: Because they think they're invincible, you know. RM: Yeah. LB: And in fact there's a whole proven strategy of that. RM: Yeah. LB: So I'm talking too much. So you've been talking about work, and that's been really fascinating. So are you talking to lots of other people -- we're talking a lot about whether people are using video -- Zoom -- and certainly you are for work -- talk about how you're using technology to be able to talk to people. RM: Absolutely. It's actually been a godsend, because, first of all, I proposed -- and it's happening now -- where my siblings and I talk every week on a Zoom call. And my sisters and I talk frequently -- certainly not once a week, but frequently. But my brothers, as much as I'm close to them, I typically might talk to them a couple times a year or whatever, you know -- not very frequently. And this, you know, we talk to each other religiously, except if there's like Father's Day or Mother's Day or something like that -- we've skipped that week -- which is absolutely important to me. Because it's not just a phone call, and it's not where each of us is calling each other -- we all get to see each other -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- through our Zoom call. LB: Yeah. RM: I've also been in touch -- like my best friend from childhood, who I always feel close to, no matter how many years we don't talk -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- we've talked. Other friends who I haven't talked to very often, just because life gets in the way, you know -- I've reached out, because it just feels really important to stay in touch with particularly people who are not close by, or who, you know, you don't get to be in communication with often. And, again, phone calls are great, but there's something really comforting about being able to see the other person, and see their face, and their expressions -- and, you know, even though you can't visit, you feel like you visited, to some degree. So I've been using Zoom a lot -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- and FaceTime. LB: Yeah. RM: Now, FaceTime isn't possible for everybody, because everybody doesn't have an iPhone. But Zoom is easy no matter what kind of technology they've got, you know. And for a while, for example, my oldest brother (laughs) could not get anything working -- but he was still able to call in -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- to the Zoom call. And now we can actually see him, because he figured some shit out. (laughs) But yeah, no, like I can't even imagine what that must have been like in 1918, when -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- you know, it might take two weeks to get a letter, let alone, you know... Can't even imagine, you know. Because it really has made things really comforting, to be able to speak to people -- or, like my daughter-in-law's family -- I haven't seen them, but, again, it doesn't happen every week, but I think we do FaceTime with them. LB: Yeah. RM: And, you know, the grandkids actually get to, you know -- before, they actually -- because in the beginning of this, like my son's family didn't go visit at all. But now the other grandparents -- they built a whole, beautiful playground for these kids -- the little kids -- in their backyard, which is huge. And so, you know, they get to go and socially distance. So they've been able to see them. But before then, they couldn't. And, you know, with -- my younger grandkids are four and two -- almost two -- tomorrow will be two -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- I mean how quickly they could forget who somebody is, right. So yeah. LB: And you really miss things with little kids. So are you taking care of the -- RM: I am. Four days a week I watch them. LB: Okay. RM: Wednesdays are the day I have off. (laughs) LB: Oh. (laughs) RM: And that's one of the reasons I wanted to retire, because the world was literally falling apart, and it's like the one thing that keeps me sane and happy are the younger grandkids, who don't have any clue what's going on, and, you know, that innocence -- and also it gives me the inspiration to like just keep fighting -- because, you know, you've got to for them. So yeah. So I've been actually watching them -- I didn't watch them four full days a week until recently -- but, you know, that was the plan for me. And it's been great, because, you know, their family -- which is two older boys -- one who just graduated from college, and one who's going into 12th grade -- and two working parents -- there's no way they could get any work done -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- if the little ones were at home. So they actually come to my house -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- four days a week, so that, you know, their household can actually function. (laughs) And I get real happy by them being here. So yeah. LB: Yeah. That's great. I definitely miss kids. (laughter) So we've talked a lot about some of your concerns, but what's your biggest concern -- pandemic-wise, what's your biggest concern? I mean I don't know if you can separate that from other things, but -- RM: I can't totally separate it. And my biggest concern is, first of all, are they going to figure this out, because of the leadership that we've got going on, and the fact that we are less and less and less connected with anybody else in the rest of the world -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- you know. The fact that we're not collaborating with -- as others are doing and working together to try to figure out a solution -- that, you know, those nightmare horror movies that you see where people are fighting over this, that, and the other -- whether it's water, or whatever the resources are -- I mean we literally could be in that position because of how we, as a nation -- not certainly we as certain individuals -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- but we, as a nation, have positioned ourselves, based on the absence of leadership or anything other than evil at the top. LB: Yeah. RB: It also really worries me about what will happen with the November election, because, you know, there's all kinds of ways that this could be rationalized to fuck that election up -- LB: Yeah. RB: -- if we're still in -- we're not going to get to a second wave, because we're not going to ever get out of the first wave -- LB: Right. RM: -- with the way we've been behaving, as a nation. But the point is, it's going to get worse as flu season approaches -- whatever you call it -- another wave, or a surge, or whatever. So I'm really, really worried about how this is going to land for -- I mean certainly the globe -- but certainly for the United States -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- because I think we are already essentially a failed state (laughs) -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- and I think that that exercise in destroying what, you know, the completely imperfect democracy that we were to begin with, I think -- LB: Right. RM: -- we are on the verge of complete destruction. I mean yesterday I was reading in the news how the federal government is insisting that, you know, the CDC not be the ones to collect data. LB: Yeah. Right. RM: And that's just happening. Like along with all the nonsense that we see, there's all of these insidious, nefarious things going on that are happening at the same time that people -- including the media -- does not pay attention to, because they're worried about whether or not, you know, Donald Trump is wearing a fucking mask. LB: Right. RM: I mean, it's ridiculous. So I'm really concerned about our ability to survive -- as a political entity for sure -- but what does that mean if we already see these disproportionate ways that it's affecting certain communities? What's it going to end up? So I have a lot of fear about this. The one hopeful thing, I will say, about the pandemic honestly is that the largest protest movement ever in the United State's history is happening. LB: Right. RM: Now, it's getting a lot less coverage, but it's still happening. LB: Yeah. RM: So how sustained that will be -- I don't know. But this is pretty amazing that it's been, you know, more than a month of every day -- in some localities, every day -- protests happening. And that could not have happened without the pandemic. So, you know, there's got to be something positive that comes out of everything, in my mind. So some silver lining. And that is the silver lining. Because people were home, people were, you know, not watching football or baseball or whatever the hell we would have been watching at this point in time -- basketball maybe. I don't even know what fucking season. (laughter) LB: Me neither. RM: But the point is that there was nothing to distract people from the news, so that George Floyd was not an anomaly, as many, many white Americans think it was. LB: Yeah. RM: But it was visceral -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- and it was seen by many people who wouldn't have paid any attention. LB: Right. RM: And people wouldn't have been able to be in the streets everyday if they had to be in their offices, or working wherever. So that's my glimmer of hope, is that the pandemic has actually allowed this protest movement to flourish in a way that it would never have been able to if we had been in a normal, you know, grind of work and all of those things. I don't know if that's enough to overcome, you know, the devastation that's being done to really all of our institutions and systems. LB: Right. RM: But, you know, I just saw RBG is in the hospital again, you know -- Ruth Bader Ginsburg. (laughs) I'm like, "Come on" -- LB: Yeah. Yeah. RM: -- "you've got to make it past November, and you've got to make it past us" -- I mean, unfortunately, Trump is not going to go away immediately -- it doesn't matter if he's defeated or not. But him being out of office will be at least a hopeful step towards something different and better. LB: Yeah. RM: But yeah. I mean it's like, you know, no one could have imagined that we could be in the spot that we are in. LB: Yeah. RM: I am not one who does not see all of the horror of who we are as a nation. I predicted this when Trump got elected in 2016 -- and people go, "Oh, we don't have to worry. He's not going to win." I'm like, "You all need to open your eyes, because this is really possible, and this is going to be a nightmare." But, I would say, as much as I thought of the horror story, I could not have envisioned this combination -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- of -- LB: Who could ever? RM: -- horrific opportunities of to be just in complete free fall. LB: Yeah. RM: But, as I said, that's the one glimmer of hope -- that's a big deal, you know. That's a big deal. LB: It is a big deal. Yeah. It's interesting. I have sort of been thinking a lot about the incredibly stupid things that Great Britain did when it was a world power, you know -- the sun never sets on the British Empire. They, in effect, owned everybody and colonized everybody, and were horrible about it. And there was this enormous one stupid mistake after another, where they just kept doing it, and kept doing it and doing it. And, you know, I'm sure that a lot of Americans today think the United States will never be not the power that it is. RM: That's right. LB: And that's what people thought about Great Britain in the 1920s. And now, you know, they've got that in the Falklands, (laughs) you know. And they have changed every single thing -- every single circumstance -- with the exception of the queen -- RM: Right. LB: -- every single circumstance in their -- and they did change, but it took, what, decades and decades and decades. And -- RM: But the reality is, we -- LB: (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) perfect. RM: Yeah. We need to change. So that's not the problem. But the problem is that -- you've hit the nail on the head -- which is, again, as a historian, is just always so troubling -- that, you know, we live with blinders on, as a nation -- we live in our own mythologies. And, I mean, a few hundred years, in the scope of human history, is nothing. LB: Nothing, yes. RM: Empires -- and we are an empire -- LB: Right. RM: -- have fallen -- pretty much all of them fall -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- right. And I think that's one of the things that really worries me about, for example, November, you know -- that this "solution" is to elect somebody different. One of the things that has frightened me for years -- but certainly once Trump was elected -- is that, again, that's a mindset that's assuming that we have some stability, right. LB: Yeah. RM: And that's assuming that, you know, a change of leadership is going to be the solution. The problem is things have been so bastardized -- LB: Yes. RM: -- so bastardized for decades, but definitive-- like Trump didn't come out of nowhere, right. LB: Right. Right. RM: He's come out of -- at least since 1964 -- what the Republican Party has been moving towards. LB: Yeah. RM: So it's been decades of concerted effort to mess up the systems. And so, you know, to always think, "Well, all we need to do is get him out of there, 2020." "Or 2018, let's get, you know, things" -- who would have thought -- LB: Yeah. [It's ridiculous that they said that?]. Yeah. RM: -- that it does not matter what he has done, said -- it doesn't matter. Like his followers are not moving off of that path because it's not grounded -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- in rational anything. LB: Right. It's not rational. Yeah. RM: It's grounded in hatred, it's grounded in xenophobia, and homophobia, and racism -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- you know. Fear. LB: Yeah. RM: And -- I don't know. And so the pandemic could be the way we see a way out of that tunnel, or it could be the rocks falling on that tunnel -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- and, you know, unfortunately historians can't predict the future, so I can't say which that will be. I don't know where it will land. But -- LB: We're talking to the future right now, and, you know, I always think about -- I've mentioned this a couple of times in some of the other interviews -- when you watch movies about World War II -- RM: Yeah. LB: -- there's a few kinds of movies, and one of them was the movies they made during World War II, where they didn't know we were going to win or not, and how, in some ways, they were very different than the movies they made after World War II -- RM: Yeah. LB: -- which actually were more critical of the United States and stuff -- the during World War II was just about morale, and just saying, you know, "We have to keep fighting, and we have to keep fighting, but let's not say anything that's negative that's happening" -- and there were all sorts of horrible, horrible things that were happening -- the internment of Japanese, and, you know, all sorts of stuff like that -- the Holocaust was happening during -- RM: Yeah. LB: -- the time -- that people weren't acknowledging, even though some people were certainly aware of it. And yet, you know, we're in the middle of it -- and, in fact, we're at the beginning of it -- because it's only been a few months -- RM: Exactly. LB: -- you know. People need to understand that. I mean even the 1918 flu -- RM: It's not going to be over in a few months. LB: No. RM: This is a long haul. Yeah. LB: It's interesting -- the flu epidemic of 1918, there were two things -- one of the things was at the end of fifteen months, it disappeared -- it literally ended. And some people think that it's because the flu mutated -- because mutation can be good, as well as bad. And so we don't know what that's going to be -- it could be mutating so it's not bad for pe-- you know, it doesn't make people sick anymore. And the other thing that happened was that one out of three people in the entire world had had the disease. So there was a, you know, herd immunity, because -- RM: Yeah. LB: -- huge, huge numbers of people had had it, and they either died -- like the fifty to one hundred million people -- or they developed a resistance to it. And so, you know, we can look back at that now, and one of the biggest things we see about it is that almost nobody knows anything about it. RM: Yeah. LB: They don't even talk about it, you know. They sort of say little bits about it and stuff like that, but that was a million times worse than this pandemic. It hit young people, and all sorts of things. But we don't know what's going to happen with this. We're in the beginning of it. We have no idea what's going to happen. It could get one hundred times worse as we go along. RM: Yeah. LB: And it's shocking. I haven't spoken to anyone who wasn't furious at people who were not acting responsibly. RM: It makes no sense to me. LB: Yeah. RM: It makes no sense to me. But, again, unfortunately, a lot of that is rooted in it being politicized. But even so, you know, when we went out to the fish hatchery with the kids -- and there's huge signs everywhere that say, you know, "Because of COVID-19, make sure you're wearing your mask. Blah, blah, blah." We were in the minority -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- of people. And it's like, yeah, I might be able to be distant from you, but when you're walking along those things where the fish are, I can't guarantee you're not going to be close to me. Like it makes no sense. LB: Yeah. RM: No sense whatsoever. LB: Yeah. RM: Yesterday we were at the park with the kids, and, unfortunately, we were foolish, and we had our, you know, masks on our wrists -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- because we hadn't been near anybody for quite a while. And this young woman and her boyfriend -- we were at one of the little bridges at the rose garden -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- because we had been throwing rocks in the creek -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- and we were standing there one last moment with the kids. And I said to them, you know, "Can you just hold on?" Because if we can walk away, and whatever, and they were staying -- and she goes, "Oh" -- and she's talking the whole time, right -- so it was like, "We're just going to walk over here." So she's like walking and talking behind me, and I'm like, "Are you fucking kidding me?" But then I have to blame myself, because I didn't have my mask on at that moment. LB: Yeah. RM: But the reality is, my mask -- needs to have her mask too. LB: Yeah. RM: And everybody else had been as they should, you know -- they were polite, and everybody says, "Thank you," as people wait, you know -- LB: Sure. RM: -- and the kids are even -- I mean, my four-year-old grandson now knows, you know -- he waits until people walk by, and therefore he's not -- what was wrong with her? And I didn't want to have an argument with her, because it would have meant more back and forth with the spit, you know. It's like -- LB: Yeah. More air. RM: I mean the lack of compliance -- and I have not been in any place except my home, and my son's home. LB: Yeah. RM: I pick up things where it's curbside pickup -- and they throw things in my trunk -- so I literally (laughs) had no contact with other human beings. I haven't been in a store -- I've been fortunate that I haven't had to be in a store, you know. And it really doesn't take -- I mean if we're lucky enough to be able to do this, what is wrong with people? LB: Yeah. I don't understand. RM: I mean my daughter keeps telling me -- I'm not mentioning names, since this is going to be recorded forever -- you know who they are -- but, you know, she laughs at me, because I keep ordering new masks, you know -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- got some kind of cloth ones, some whatever -- because it's going to be around for a really long time. LB: Yeah. RM: So it's like a fashion accessory -- like Michael Jackson. You know what I'm saying? So I'm going to be wearing them for a long time. So (laughs) they've got to be cute, and they've got to be a lot of them. (laughs) LB: I know. I was talking to -- I said, you know, "Start getting your kids used to wearing masks. So buy them like superhero ones -- like lunch boxes, you know." Like, "Oh, I get the coolest mask, you know, and" -- RM: I just got two in the mail yesterday with Spiderman on them. LB: Yeah. RM: We both had them on, because they're going to have to wear them. LB: Yeah. RM: They're going to have to get used to it. And even they're not school age, they're going to have to get used to it. And then if they go to school, let's pray they keep them on. But oh, God, I don't know. LB: Well we have a friend, you know, who is a pediatrician. And she said that, you know, she's got all these moms saying, "Can I send my kid to daycare?" And she said, "Well let me ask you a question. When you send your kid to daycare, do they get a cold, you know? Don't they get everything from the other kids at daycare? So if you do it, they're going to get this. So you have to decide. If your kid gets this, what's it going to do to them, and what's it going to do to everybody else in your household? Because you're not going to be able to keep them away from you" -- RM: Yeah. LB: -- "you know." And she said, "You just have to stop and think. I'm not going to tell you. I'm going to tell you that. If you send them to daycare, they're going to get it." RM: Right. And if they don't get it, they'll be, you know, could be silent carriers. Who knows? LB: They're going to get it. RM: I mean that's why I just feel like this is so much more important than me staying, working full-time, is the fact -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- that, again, this is a privilege and a blessing that, you know, between my daughter and me, we have been able to have my son and daughter-in-law never have to send their kids -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- to daycare. Now, you know, the older one, who's four, was in preschool. And unfortunately he's not going to have that interaction. But thank goodness he has a younger brother, so he's not going to be totally bored. LB: Yeah. RM: But that just is not worth the risk. LB: Yeah. Yeah. RM: You know, he loved preschool, but he's not going to be going back in the fall. He can't. LB: It's [just?] -- RM: You know, she has a -- I don't know -- seventy-six-year-old grandmother. I mean he'll never be able to see her if that's the case. LB: Yeah. RM: So I realize that there are people who don't have those options -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- and that's how you de-densify, is (laughs) that you have people who absolutely have no choice. But if I have a choice -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- not only do I want to keep my family safe, but it keeps their family safe -- because it's less people in that space. LB: Right. Right. Yeah. Well we feel the same way. We haven't been out of the house, except for a couple of doctor's appointments. And, you know, they'll say to me, "Can you go over to the center and fix something?" I said, "Well, I'm going at Sunday morning at six o'clock, and I don't want anybody to have been in there for two days." And we never have more than one person at a time in the building, and they wipe down -- I mean they're very, very careful. But I don't want to be in the building, even if there's somebody there the day before. And I'm not -- RM: Right. LB: -- going to be in the building when anybody else is there -- in fact, I don't even like to go out of the house. I really don't. RM: Right. (laughs) I don't know if that's going to change. I said I'll probably need therapy to actually get back to being a human being who will interact with people. I get so paranoid. If we take a walk, you know, just to get out in the fresh air -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- like if I see people a block away, I start to get -- LB: I do too. RM: -- anxious, you know -- a little anxiety. LB: (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) I haven't walked anywhere. I have a bicycle desk, which I get exercise on, and we work in the garden. And that's all we do. We haven't gone for a walk. I'm not going to -- you know, Trish, now, she's in great shape, but she has interstitial lung compromise -- RM: Yeah. LB: -- as part of her lupus. Now, it's not serious, but she has it. And she's -- RM: You're not taking that risk. LB: -- sixty-five years old. So, you know, she's great. She works hard -- she built a rock garden and everything. But if she gets this, you know -- I mean we're all over 60. For heaven's sake -- RM: We're in the age group that's a risk -- which is weird, but it's true. (laughter) LB: I know. Because I think I'm so -- like I was talking to somebody yesterday who was in her twenties, and she goes, "Well, you know, my grandmother's really at risk," and stuff. And I said, "How old is she?" And she said, "Sixty three." (laughter) She goes, "She's really spry." (laughs) I go, "Yeah. Oh, yeah." RM: And we think, "Damn, that's us." Yeah. (laughter) LB: I'm spry. I walk five miles a day, kid, (laughs) you know. For heaven's sake. Oh, God. We're really spry, Bert. (laughs) RM: Oh my God. LB: So one of the things we have that we're very lucky with, I think -- in the state of Pennsylvania -- is we have Dr. Rachel Levine. And, you know, I don't know if you've seen her speaking or anything, but it's a plus, I think. RM: I think we're one of the states that has leadership, period -- LB: We do. RM: -- you know. LB: A good governor. RM: New York, us, you know -- there's a few. LB: Yeah. RM: And yeah. I mean, first of all, it's just with such pride to think (laughs) that she is leading this -- and, first of all, that we have her in that position -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- is a big deal. LB: It is. RM: And, you know, just thinking how many years ago -- LB: Right. RM: -- anyway. It's just really -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- I love hearing what she has to say. I love reading that, you know, she's leading this, that, and the other. Yeah. I think we're really, really fortunate to have -- and especially someone who also -- I mean obviously is not part of the community, obviously -- but who can understand the scope of the kinds of issues -- LB: Right. RM: -- that could come up for the community. LB: Yeah. RM: Obviously, you know, she is not only representing the community -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- you know, which always becomes a thing when -- LB: Sure. RM: -- folks are Black or trans or whatever -- that somehow that's their only interest. But having that perspective I think really is helping with making certain decisions. Unfortunately, again, the economy has driven some of those decisions so that we didn't even follow our own guidelines for when we went from damn red to yellow to green. Because what has translated, for many people, is green means things are back to normal. LB: I know. Trish was saying, "What a stupid thing to call it, to call it 'green'" -- RM: Yeah. LB: -- "because it just sounds like that means 'go'. And it's not" -- RM: We should have just stayed in yellow. We should have never been able to go beyond yellow, if you're going to talk colors -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- so that people understand yellow at least means "caution," you know. LB: Yeah. Or they could have -- RM: And green means, "Hey, everything's back to normal." LB: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We should have started with a different color, then gone to red and yellow. (laughter) Because there's more levels than three, really. RM: Yeah. LB: And we really aren't out of the yellow phase. It's ridiculous. And people are like -- RM: We're not going to be out of the yellow phase until there's -- LB: That's right. RM: -- a treatment or a vaccine. I mean that's what Americans need to understand -- or, you know, reading about returning to school, there was an article -- and I can't remember if it was The New York Times or The Washington Post -- it was one of the two of those. And it was talking about what can we learn from other countries -- because of course it was riffing off of stupid comments about how everything has opened in other countries, and blah, blah, blah, and they haven't had -- it's been perfect, you know. But, when reading that, it was like, "All of this is great. But it's meaningless in a country that hasn't followed any of the things they should have followed." Those other examples, you know, were on complete lockdown, or they were on -- like they had compliance across, you know -- obviously not one hundred percent -- but they had real compliance -- LB: Right. RM: -- with whatever it was. They had governments that might be democracies, but they're social democracies -- so that social safety net was there for pe-- like there's no comparison. Like we can't learn from them, because we're not in that position. LB: Yeah. RM: We're not in a position where, as a nation, we don't have to worry about the fact that we're still in the first wave, and we're going to be in the first wave. Because, unlike other countries, you know, we haven't moved off of this. We haven't gone like this, and then a second wa-- we've gone like (noise) -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- you know. (laughs) And so I'm just like, "Stop acting like we can learn from anybody else until we learn that we're not -- we have to stop being stupid, as a nation." LB: Yeah. RM: And Americans have a really hard time not being really stupid. LB: I know. Why is it? Well, yeah. Oh. Ugh. Yeah. It's -- RM: COVID parties, so that you can -- and then dying. LB: And then dying. (laughter) Yeah. RM: I mean, come on. LB: Yeah. And then people saying, "Well, that wasn't me." I just talked to somebody who was saying, "Well, you know, now that you can go to restaurants" -- and she was making some good points about, as a young person, buying food weeks and weeks in advance -- so like buying food once every two weeks -- and how she really just wasn't equipped to deal with the concept of buying food -- because fresh food doesn't last, you know, over that time. And she wasn't really a cook. And she said by the end of the second week, "I don't want that food anymore." And so she said that they're going out to eat. And I'm in my mind thinking -- going out to eat, to me -- so somebody (coughs) that I know on Facebook that I know personally said that he'd gone out to lunch -- he'd taken his mother and his sister out to brunch. And the wait person came to their table and wasn't wearing a mask. And Trish and I said in unison, "I would have gotten up and walked out of the place, just right then." And he ended up staying. And she said, "Why did he do that? Why didn't they just leave?" Because -- RM: Right. LB: -- I mean that person was coming in contact with dozens of people who, because they were eating, weren't wearing masks. So how could that person possibly be not potentially infected? And, in fact, wait staff people are absolute-- they're essential workers, making no money at all, and they're at such risk, that it's a horrible, horrible situation for people who are working in restaurants. And we know lots of people who work for restaurants, and they do that, you know, and they make an okay salary, if they can work all of the time -- if it's a nice restaurant, they can do okay. But places are telling them, "You have to come in and work. If you don't come in and work, you can't work here anymore." It's -- RM: Exactly. Right. LB: And because they're essential workers, they can't get unemployment anymore, because we're open. It's an awful situation. So let's see. Oh (laughs), here's a good one -- are you spending any time on queer dating or hook-up apps? RM: (laughs) No. (laughter) No, I gave up on that a long time ago. (laughter) If you know -- LB: No -- RM: -- any good apps, you can tell me what they are. But -- LB: No. (sighs) Actually, I was just talking to somebody -- a young man -- who was saying that he, you know, would look at the things, and if the person was saying that they would hook-up, he said, "Why would I do that? That'd be crazy." (laughs) He called it the "Hi and bye" apps. (laughter) It was like that's what Grindr is, is "Hi and bye." (laughter) But he said, like, "I'm not going to say "hi" at all if the person is saying, you know, "I don't care about the thing, you know, I don't care about COVID." Well, bye -- so he said, "It's just 'bye' for me." He was (laughs) great about that. I said, "Did you just make that up?" He said, "Yeah. There's another name for it" -- which I don't know, of course -- but I didn't think it was appropriate for the video, so I made it up -- "Hi and bye" (laughter) apps. (coughs) So you're talking about -- RM: It feels like even if I were -- I mean I really haven't bothered with dating sites for a long time -- but even if I were, this would not be the moment for me to be doing that. LB: You know, I -- RM: I understand that for many, though -- like in some ways I can imagine if you're younger that those sites -- assuming that you're not doing the hook-up thing -- it can be a way to actually get to know somebody -- LB: Sure. RM: -- which a lot of times -- especially when you're younger -- you don't bother to do before you hook up. So that there could be some utility. I don't know if people are smart enough not to, you know -- if you want some grins, look at -- I think it's NYC dot gov -- the New York City -- LB: Oh, yeah. RM: -- Twitter account has a whole thing about hook up stuff. LB: (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible). RM: Hilarious. I mean, I'm like, "This is a government site saying all of these things." It's hilarious. LB: (inaudible) [Adrian?] worked with the city and the state to adopt a lot of the information that New York had. Parts of it was a little too edgy. But we put it on our website, because, you know, it's specific -- RM: I mean it's great information, but it's hilarious that the language that is on there is on a government site. (laughs) LB: But, in some ways, it's kind of brilliant, because it's more likely for people to read it. It's not stodgy. It draws people to it (laughter) to actually read it and go, "Oh yeah, I see it." (laughter) So Adrian said, "I can see why the glory hole thing is not making people comfortable" (laughter), you know. And he said, "They wouldn't use the word 'rimming' in the thing that I wanted to " (laughter) -- RM: Right. (laughs) LB: But (laughter) -- RM: They did actually, though. They did. LB: In New York, they have it -- but they won't use it in PA. So -- RM: Oh, okay. LB: -- he rewrote it to make it more, you know -- RM: PA-friendly. (laughter) LB: I guess. And part of that is because we're getting a lot of pushback from Rachel Levine. So they don't want to have it seem like, you know -- you know what I'm saying [and stuff?]. RM: Well there's the problem -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- which we have -- whether it's Barack Obama as the first Black -- LB: Exactly. RM: -- president, or the first trans person -- is you don't want to seem like blah, blah, blah. But it also means that that creates a problem for the community that you do come from -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- because, in some ways, you've got to distance yourself from that so that you don't -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- seem like that's your key constituency that you're worried about. LB: Yeah. RM: And, you know, it's one of the things that we joked and kind of didn't joke about with Barack Obama -- that, you know, Black people were better off under, you know -- whether it's Lyndon Johnson or whoever -- because -- LB: Right. Yeah. RM: -- you know, whether it's white people or white guilt -- same thing that I had at work when we had a particular person in a particular position -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- where it was like, we were better off with the white guilt that was at the top. Do you know what I'm saying? LB: Yeah. RM: Because we could get what we needed better -- LB: I see. RM: -- when -- LB: I can understand that. RM: -- but it really is -- it presents a real quandary at times -- LB: Yeah. Sure. RM: -- when what you're talking about affects the community that you come from -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- that, in a marginalized group -- that, in a political situation, you've got to act as if you are not worried about those folks in the way that you really are worried about those folks. LB: Yeah. I think you've talked about most of the other questions that we've had on here by our just chatting. There's one question on here -- do you know anybody that's had it -- had the disease -- or anybody who's died? RM: I do not know anyone who has died, personally. I don't even have anybody, thank God -- knock on wood some place -- within my personal circle -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- who have become ill. Like my sisters, former brother-in-law, you know, had it, and recovered. But, for example, one of the young men who was in [Hype?] many years ago -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- actually was written in the -- there was an article in the paper about his family -- the one who had multiple people die -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- in their -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- family. LB: Yeah. RM: So, you know, reading it was like, "Oh my God. I know who they're talking about." LB: Yeah. RM: But I have not had a lot of personal experience -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- with people -- but, again, that's because I'm in like this bubble -- LB: True. RM: -- and, you know, some of my siblings have children who have to continue to work -- and thank goodness they've stayed healthy. But it's not like everybody is fortunate to not have to work -- LB: Right. RM: -- you know. Within my immediate circle -- in terms of my family here in Allentown -- none of us are, you know. But, again, my daughter-in-law -- some of her family has to continue to go into work. So, you know, and some of them have some health issues that worry me with that. And I just pray that, you know, that doesn't happen. But no. I've been very, very fortunate -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- that it has not impacted me, personally, at this point. LB: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so the last thing -- and I think we've talked about this a little bit, but I want you to have an opportunity to talk about this a little bit more if you want -- because you can't divorce the circumstances of COVID from the circumstances of Black Lives Matter right now -- and even our local issues with that, which are very significant at the moment. So do you want to talk about that anymore? You have said some things. But go ahead and say whatever you want to about that. RM: As I said, I think it's a double-edged sword with COVID. Because it's both -- as I mentioned already -- really opened up the possibility for a movement. But I can remember thinking -- like right after George Floyd, you know -- the video surfaced -- which I haven't watched that or most others. I can no longer traumatize myself in that way. I realized that many Americans -- particularly white Americans -- need to see it to believe it. I don't. So just the image -- just the photo on my Facebook feed meant that I went off of Facebook for -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- weeks. Because I could not continue to see just even the still image. LB: Yeah. RM: But one of the things that I think was really troubling to me is I was so thrilled to see that, in spite of everything, immediately people took to the streets. LB: Right. RM: But it also made me, you know -- I wept about it, because it was like folks who are the most vulnerable -- LB: Yes. RM: -- are forced to put their lives on the line in multiple ways -- LB: Right. RM: -- by going out into the streets -- because literally people have been run down by cars, or, you know, maimed by police with rubber bullets, or whatever it is -- but that they are willing to do that, in spite of the fact that we have a pandemic -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- is amazing. And really, as I said, that's what gives me the hope. But it also makes me worry, because, you know, right now, there isn't like a lot of evidence that that has been a major contributor to any surges anywhere -- primarily because the stuff is all outside, and people are moving, and air flow, and, you know, probably at least 50 percent are wearing masks. But there's a lot of people -- when you look at those protests -- who are not wearing masks, or who pull them down when they are speaking, or singing, et cetera. But, fortunately, the dynamics of how the virus seems to spread -- they're still pretty much protected, because they are outside -- and they're able to be outside, you know, at this moment, because the weather is good or whatever. But I had real mixed feelings about it in the beginning. And, to be honest with you, I've had a lot of guilt that I haven't been able to be out there with them. LB: Me too. Me too. RM: And my sister has tried to calm that guilt, and said, you know -- I mean obviously I continue to donate to things, you know, I was just on a program on PBS -- I think it was yesterday -- I didn't see it, because I don't have cable, so I have to look at a streaming thing on it -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- on systemic -- LB: Yeah, yeah. RM: -- racism. LB: Yeah. RM: I've been on a town hall with Ce-Ce Gerlach. So I'm still doing things -- and my teaching I really do consider to be an extension of my activism -- but it is a weird moment in my life where, you know, it's the first moment I can think of -- with any kind of protest that's been important to me -- where I can't take that risk. And I feel really guilty about being privileged enough to say, "I can't take that risk to be out and about." But I can't take that risk. So it's brought up a lot of weird emotions for me. LB: I feel the same way. You know, our two local protests that we just had in the last week -- I looked at the videos of the first one -- and Adrian actually called me, and said, "Do you know what's happening?" And I looked at the videos, and I could see people shouting, and they weren't wearing masks. And I thought, "I can't do it. I can't do it." RM: Right. Right. LB: So this is exactly -- it's like the, you know, the choir singing. And I hate that. I mean I really wanted to be there, and I have also written -- I tried to do some lobbying for Ce-Ce. She asked me to do some lobbying, and I tried to do that for specific people. And I also wrote some talking points for her and stuff. But because this most recent video that came out -- [and I don't know what he did with that?] -- but I watched that second by second, and I wrote down -- this happens at this point, and this is exactly contrary to what the police said in their statement -- because I want people to talk about what happened, as opposed -- RM: Yeah. LB: -- to saying these sort of abstract things. I haven't posted that yet, because -- and now, of course, there's some stupid -- I have a very visceral response to police in Allentown because of my interaction with the police in Allentown. And I was talking to a young person of color in one of these interviews who was saying, you know, "These things have happened, and they've never happened before." And she said, "They're happening because of COVID." And I said, "No they're not. You're seeing them because of COVID, and you're also seeing them because every single person in the United States has a video camera that they're carrying with them" -- RM: That's right. LB: -- "thank God." RM: That's right. LB: So, you know, that's the thing. RM: Yeah. LB: And it's not just one person. So they can't say, "Oh, well that" -- it's fifteen people making a video of that -- you can see them holding their phones up. Well it's a great thing -- RM: Yeah. LB: -- because you can't argue with it -- RM: Right. LB: -- and people who used to -- RM: Well, but they can -- did you see the article about the expert? LB: Oh, yeah. That was ridiculous. RM: And I'm like, "Are you kidding me?" LB: Yeah. RM: "Are you kidding me?" Because he didn't keep his knee on there long enough to actually kill the man, that means that there's no problem? LB: Yeah. RM: And it doesn't matter what happened before. If it's not supposed to happen because of your -- LB: Right. RM: -- policies -- LB: Right. RM: -- how can you say that's not -- I mean on every level -- plus, I mean, the man got down in a supplicant motion. LB: So if you watch that nine minute video -- RM: Yeah, I did. LB: -- at 5:59 in that video, the police officer does it again -- he knees the guys head -- after he's been handcuffed -- you know, and that's just the use of force. RM: And why are you handcuffing somebody who does need to be in the emergency room? LB: Right. Right. RM: I mean why was there an arrest? Why was any of that -- I mean when you watch all -- LB: They didn't need to arrest him. RM: -- the video, it makes no sense. LB: Right. RM: I mean, that's why -- it makes no sense other than the fact of police acting like -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- police. LB: And -- RM: Because -- LB: Yeah. And no question about it -- it's racism. No question about it, it's bullying. There's even that part where every time the police officer goes to do something, he rolls up his sleeve, and he goes like this with his muscles -- he's a very muscular guy. And I think, you know, "Oh, for heaven's sake." (laughs) RM: Yeah. LB: It's just -- RM: I mean it's really a sad thing when Allentown made -- I mean, Democracy Now! covered it -- LB: I know. RM: Buzzfeed, you know. (laughs) It's everywhere. And -- LB: And the first thing they do is they release a statement saying that he fell to the ground, and the other people fell down with him. And then you see the video where they (laughter) sweep his feet out from under him. (laughter) RM: Exactly. Exactly. LB: So, you know, my response to that is, "So they lied?" RM: Right. LB: They lied, and they got caught because of the video. And that's what I was trying to say to this young woman -- the fact that there's video all over the place is -- and I was just like -- this was a person in their 20s -- and I said, "Do you really think this hasn't been happening forever?" (laughs) I mean it's just that nobody was driving by with their phone (laughs), you know. And obviously the person who made the first video was very motivated to make the video too -- they were very, very concerned. RM: Yeah. LB: So they were more tuned in to doing it too, but -- RM: Yeah. LB: -- you know. RM: Yeah. It's so not new. LB: But I do think that the resolution that Ce-Ce made and Josh Siegel made is a very good set of things. I had said to her over and over again, "Don't make a resolution unless you talk about body cams" -- because that's something that is a real practical thing. And apparently they're (laughs) supposed to be wearing them anyway, since 2017. RM: Yeah. LB: And I don't know. And I hate not going to march for that. RM: Yeah. It's been really tough from that standpoint. LB: And I know that people -- because if you look at the demographic, for the most part, most people are younger. And that's not always true in old-time -- RM: Right. LB: -- (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible). RM: And which also, again, is why I feel so -- like this is a moment of optimism. LB: It is. It is. RM: Because there's a lot of young people -- and, you know, I mean places like Bangor -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- have protests. I mean I used to do consulting work up there, and used to be afraid -- like I was always grateful I was light skinned (laughs) when I went up there that they could mistake me and not know who I was, because that was not -- I mean that and Pen Argyl -- those places were scary to me. LB: I know. RM: Or -- what's that place called in Texas? The one that was a sundown town. I mean that's what's like been amazing -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- or when you see like one lone person -- one lone white person -- LB: Yeah. RM: -- you know, on a corner with Black Lives Matter. And then things like TikTok, which -- LB: Yes. RM: -- first of all, I'm completely addicted to TikTok. So if they -- LB: Oh, that is -- RM: -- take that away I'm really in trouble -- LB: -- [my favorite?] (inaudible). RM: -- but it's been really interesting to watch the movement evolve on a platform like that. And then it's clear that TikTok is doing some things -- and they have a term for it -- you know, the young people have some term for what's happening to them -- but where you're not seeing that in your feed. Because the stuff is still happening, and people are still protesting, and yet, you know, for a while, I was seeing only that. And now I'm really not. But, again, the kinds of things that are available for folks when protesting -- like social media -- and social media's one of the main ways in which people in Allentown were out and about, you know -- LB: Right, right. Absolutely. RM: -- almost immediately after seeing the video -- because, again, in the past, that would have been very difficult to accomplish. LB: No kidding. We know that to be true. RM: Yeah. (coughs) LB: So I think we're about done here. RM: Okay. LB: And do you have any other things that you're thinking, "Oh I really should" -- like here's something I ask people -- if you're thinking that somebody thirty, forty, fifty years from now, when we're not around any-- well, I was actually talking to somebody that said, "Oh, you could be around twenty, thirty, forty years" -- but we probably won't be (laughter) (coughs) -- at least fifty years from now -- what do you want to tell somebody who is maybe looking at this and saying, "This is something you need to know about this time from me?" I mean you've said a lot of things that I think are very important, but is there anything that, you know, you just want to throw in? Or do you think you've covered everything? RM: I think I've pretty much covered everything, other than -- yeah, I can't think of anything that -- LB: Well thank you so much for doing this. This was just -- first of all, it's -- RM: You're welcome. LB: -- really fun to be able to see you nonstop for an hour and -- RM: I know. (laughter) LB: So I'm going to stop recording. Thank you very much, Roberta Meek. I'm going to stop this n-- END OF AUDIO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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01:24:08
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Roberta Meek, July 15, 2020
Description
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In this interview, Roberta Meek talks about her experiences with COVID-19 along with how she is going to handle teaching in a phased retirement. Furthermore, she goes on to talk about her role as an activist in Allentown. Overall, she talks about COVID-19 and how it has affected her teaching.
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PH40_21
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
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2020-07-15
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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e7b9469eaf34a8187ad598897dcf63ea
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
An account of the resource
In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Liz Bradbury
Interviewee
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Stephen Libby & Gary Gaugler. Jr.
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_20.xml
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5.4 July 29, 2020 Stephen Libby & ; Gary Gaugler, Jr., July 29, 2020 PH40_20 01:00:57 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Stephen Libby & ; Gary Gaugler. Jr. Liz Bradbury video/mpeg LibbyStephenGauglerJrGary_20200729_video.mp4 1.0:|27(5)|54(6)|85(5)|132(2)|157(3)|178(12)|197(12)|214(15)|233(7)|258(14)|277(17)|306(13)|329(17)|348(11)|371(2)|396(5)|423(6)|448(12)|473(7)|494(5)|517(14)|542(19)|563(13)|588(6)|621(3)|646(4)|683(2)|708(8)|741(10)|766(4)|791(2)|820(9)|843(13)|886(3)|903(12)|924(2)|941(15)|968(4)|993(4)|1016(6)|1049(12)|1080(6)|1109(13)|1136(7)|1163(4)|1184(6)|1213(4)|1238(2)|1261(4)|1286(2)|1315(15)|1346(9)|1373(2)|1396(8)|1427(4)|1452(6)|1483(9)|1516(3)|1539(16)|1570(2)|1609(5) 0 https://youtu.be/3XKYK6N19xo YouTube video 0 Interview Introduction LB: With this project, Bradbury-Sullivan LGBTQ Community Center and the Trexler Library, Muhlenberg College, to collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBTQ community, electing and curating local LGBTQ health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury, and I’m here with Stephen Libby and Gary Gaugler Jr., to talk about their experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBTQ community during this time of COVID-19 pandemic as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBTQ community archives. 0 270 Stephen working as a social worker/Gary working in trade compliance from home during the pandemic SL: Yeah. I’m looking for something new. I think of the questions later, but just for a natural flow, I am, you know, just very concerned about going in to visit COVID positive people in COVID positive facilities or homes. As a social worker, I don’t feel like I have the training, like a doctor or a nurse might, for this kind of epidemic. I’m just not really comfortable doing that. [...]
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 ; GG: [...] And we were told, when we all were back on July 1st, that they would not be sending us home again, no matter how bad it got, because they were so disappointed that when they told us we could optionally come back, that nobody did. And since then, we’ve had a couple of people leave because they’ve gotten COVID. And the governor has released a statement that -- an order -- that if you are able to telework, you must do so. And the company has refused to acknowledge that, and many people have reported them to the Pennsylvania Department of Health. And I’ve not heard anything.
 ; 0 860 Gary's experience working for his company as a gay man/Comparing World War II business and citizen protocols with pandemic business and citizen protocols GG: It’s always, as a gay man, it’s always been very interesting to work. I’ve worked at this company for just under 14 years, and it’s always been very interesting, not just towards gay people, but towards black people, towards Hispanic people, towards women, even, I mean, it’s very cripplingly old fashioned. And so this is really the worst it’s ever been. 
 ; 0 1066 Getting used to being together all the time/Social distancing/Communicating with others virtually GG: I was very excited to ditch my forty minute each way commute. But, yeah, as I drove home with all my work stuff, I thought to myself, “Oh, my God, I don’t know what working with him at home, living with him, like, all full time is going to be like.” And we kind of got around her question. But I’m going to finish. For us, I found, I think he’s (laughs) I don’t know. The whole time that we were home, at least before I went back to work, we got along maybe better than we ever did. And we got along very -- I mean, we get along very well. I think we’re a pretty solid, functional couple to begin with. But, yeah, we really -- I think we’ve taken this whole pandemic so seriously, -- and really don’t go out. We don’t socialize. We don’t have people here to socialize -- that we rely on each other. And I think that, kind of knowing that kept us from the usual stuck inside for a snow weekend or whatever, kept us from reverting to, “Oh my God, it’s you again.” 0 1381 Exercising/Working on "The Gay Journal"/Gardening/Home projects SL: --we for a three-and-a-half-mile walk. I still do that every day, even since Gary’s gone back to work. And we were doing that pretty religiously every day if it wasn’t raining or whatever. And a little bit of -- we don’t have a home gym, so a little bit of a workout that I learned some stuff from my sister, who teaches physical fitness training online, so (inaudible). And I’ve been working on the magazine for two issues. Yeah. 
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 ; LB: Yeah. It’s pretty intense. 
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 ; SL: Oh, and we have a vegetable garden that’s much healthier and pretty soon, more than the one we had last year. We planted more flowers. 0 1501 Pandemic affecting animals' eating patterns/Adhering to pandemic safety protocols LB: [...] Because restaurants are selling food to people that they take it away, and throwing the food away in their garbage cans behind the restaurants, restaurants where cats hang out. And so it really changed the patterns of most kinds of animals. They’re seeking out houses and stuff to hang around (inaudible). It’s scary. 
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 ; SL: I think we also found out, you know, like, that we are taking -- we’re at one end of the spectrum. 
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 ; GG: We’re extreme. 
 ; 0 1572 Cooking at home SL: We haven’t done any kind of carryout, which we feel bad about because we want to support places. But I don’t know that I’d be able to enjoy it. We found that we both like to cook more than we thought we did. We have build your own pizza night on Friday nights for the last eighteen weeks. 0 1613 More on gardening/More on social distancing SL: And then we had mint, and we inherited from the previous owners a huge raspberry bush, which just keeps tipping over a little bit more and little bit more each year. So that was great. We got about, I would say, eight or ten cups of those. And then, you know, the neighbors on either side, so the young couple on this side with a two-year-old. And then we have an older couple that’s mostly retired on this side. And, you know, we’ve noticed that they’re doing things totally differently, too. [...] 0 1696 Liz ordering takeout/Grocery shopping LB: We were. And then we have a young person in our life who came back from college and had COVID-19, and it was serious, but she has totally recovered. And so she has a lot of antibodies. They tested her through the Lehigh Valley Health Network. So she shops for us, and we don’t even have to feel guilty about the fact that she might get this, because she is less likely to get it. She’s got the highest level defense that one could have, as long as that lasts. She’s going back to college in a couple of weeks, and then we’ll have to go back to either ordering stuff or doing what we’re doing. And, you know, we wanted to get -- Trish loves to get chicken from Mr. Bill’s, but Mr. Bill’s will not order -- like, we can’t pay them in advance and go pick up stuff. 0 1805 Stephen's concerns during the pandemic SL: My biggest concern -- well, so I would say my biggest concern personally would be for our families, obviously. And then also for myself, because I have smoked for years. I’ve had different ailments. I usually get bronchitis once or twice a year. I mean, all these other things. And when I was doing hospice, you know, you would find that everybody that you go visit is also treating it differently. And that can depend on something as stupid as politics, you know. 0 1934 England's Covid-19 protocols/President Trump's ideas on Covid-19 testing GG: It’s frustrating because we did this thinking it would be gone, like the other countries, in a few months. And so, to see it continue on when we’ve been doing what we were told to do from the beginning is frustrating. 
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 ; LB: Right. I mean, in England, where they shut down every single household, you could not leave your house for three months. And it’s gone. They’re shooting television shows with audiences full of people, and they’re safe because they’ve all been tested and they all know that there’s no danger and stuff, because they -- you know, and they, for 90 days, they stayed inside. 0 2040 Gary's concerns and concerns for the LGBT community/marginalized people GG: And so I’m going to -- so, to your question, I would echo exactly what Steve said about concerns for obviously myself, my family. As a smoker as well, as a family of half and half smokers, and just some old people. But for the LGBT community, you know, I want to say I don’t know if it’s the administration, I don’t know if it was because, God forbid, we asked people to stay inside for two months. I don’t know if I’m just blind to what I thought we were as a country, but, you know, we’ve seen this whole outbreak of racist nonsense with black people and lynchings and nooses hanging from trees and, you know, white lives matter, all lives matter. 0 2219 Stephen's work on "The Gay Journal"/Gary possibly writing a book LB: [...] Talk about the magazine, Steve, because I think that’s an important thing. 
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 ; SL: So, yeah. The first issue that we worked on, so that would have been the summer issue, when the pandemic started, I couldn’t bring myself to ask anyone if they had money to advertise in that issue. So that was an online only issue. We still produced it. It was still thirty-ish pages. My designer still worked on it. We still paid him. We posted it on the website. It’s a beautiful looking issue. I really wish that we could have printed that. 0 2619 Gary knowing of people who have contracted Covid-19/Frustrations over others not taking pandemic seriousl LB: So have you known anybody that’s been sick? Or more than sick? 
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 ; SL: No. Right. 
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 ; GG: Well, a couple of people. For me, people on Facebook that, you know, you know how Facebook works. It’s not direct friends necessarily. It’s -- a couple of people on Facebook that we know have had it. But nobody close to me. 
 ; 0 2871 Anxiety over working in-person during the pandemic SL: I think when we talk about it with someone like you, I think we’re in pretty good shape. I think, you know, there’s anxiety when Gary comes home from work because they’re still -- they’re actually being way more aggressive with getting people back to work, telling people if they leave, they’re going to consider that their resignation if they’re concerned about safety and all this other stuff. So I think in some ways, it’s gotten a little worse anxiety-wise for us. 0 2990 Wearing masks/Steve Ziminsky and his former roommate who contracted Covid SL: [...] And then, again, the same thing with Gary’s work. Some people are wearing masks, some people are not. They’re not enforcing it because they are looking at it the other way. You know, people are complaining, ”It’s against my freedom. I don’t have to wear a mask. I shouldn’t have to wear a mask. You can’t force me.” Versus looking at it from the other perspective that everyone should be wearing a mask so that we’re all safe. And, you know, they don’t look at it that way.
 ; 0 3163 Thoughts on Black Lives Matter GG: I just think it’s very disappointing that we’re even still having the conversation. 
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 ; LB: Yeah. 
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 ; GG: Really, all I have to say about it, I guess I live in a delusional world where all of this does not matter anymore because people are smarter than this. But....
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 ; SL: Well, and I also think it just complicated, you know, having COVID happening while Black Lives Matter protests were happening. You know, it really complicated things because, again, I didn’t feel comfortable going out and taking part in marches and stuff like that. I mean, we live vicariously through Facebook and what we were seeing on the news, and friends of our that actually did go out, that either had young African American -- you know, adolescent African American children that wanted to go out and be part of this, or witness this, or be part of history. 0 3283 Finding hope in America's future political prospects SL: Well, so yeah, I do think maybe Joe Biden gives us hope. I hope that the country -- I hope that there’s enough people that maybe couldn’t vote for Hillary because that didn’t excite them, that are disappointed enough to vote for Biden. I mean, I really think that realistically, that’s what we’re looking at. 
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 ; LB: I saw a meme about Biden, and he had a picture of him, and he said, “Well, let me read you my platform.” And then the bottom of the meme said, “You had me at let me read.” 0 3528 Discussing "murder hornets" SL: And I’m just glad we haven’t seen the orange wasps or whatever the -- 
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 ; GG: (laughs) Killer hornets. 
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 ; SL: The murder hornets. I don’t know. And so, hopefully, we’re not going to see those. 
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 ; GG: No, but every time I see one of those cicada killer wasps in the yard, one of those. I’m like, is it? Is it? (laughs)
 ; 0 3601 Thoughts for the future/Conclusion LB: Is there anything else you’d like to tell the future? And say, you know, here’s what the story is about this now, and we hope you’re doing this -- 
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 ; SL: I don’t think so. Just, you know, say hello to your president, Rachel Levine, in the future. (laughs) Because she’s doing a great job right now. 
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 ; LB: From us. Yeah. One of the things [Ollie Riley?] just said was, “Yeah, this is what I want to say to the future. If we can work this hard during a pandemic, you better have fixed it.”
 ; 0 MovingImage Steve and Gary talk about how the COVID-19 virus is affecting them. They talk about each working from home and how it affects themselves and each other. They talk about what it’s like at their jobs, and how possible exposure to infection has caused them to reconsider their employment and why. They describe the care they are taking to stay safe and consider why they are not speaking time with people who are not caring the kind of care they are. Stephen Libby & ; Gary Gaugler Jr. 2020-07-29 LIZ BRADBURY: Here we go. And now I'm going to turn to back-up recording, because I'm anal retentive, and it's a good thing I am, because I've got a couple of recording issues, including that in the middle of Ollie's thing, it went off. And I don't know whether it was his or mine, but I had a strong signal the whole time. I have no idea what -- never happened. That was my twenty-fourth interview, and you guys are -- actually, it's more than that. No, it's more than that, because the one after it is -- it was my twenty-eighth interview. So you guys are twenty-nine for me. And I had never had that happen, and I've been on lots of other Zoom calls, too, and it just disappeared completely off the screen like it was never there. It froze for a while, and then it just disappeared. So I hope that that doesn't happen again. But I don't know. Well, anyway. So, let me read you this stuff. So, can you hear me okay? GARY GAUGLER, JR.: Yeah. LB: With this project, Bradbury-Sullivan LGBTQ Community Center and the Trexler Library, Muhlenberg College, to collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBTQ community, electing and curating local LGBTQ health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury, and I'm here with Stephen Libby and Gary Gaugler Jr., to talk about their experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBTQ community during this time of COVID-19 pandemic as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBTQ community archives. Today is July 29, 2020, and we're meeting on Zoom. So, and I have to check to be sure I'm recording for sure. Okay. And I've pinned you, so that's good. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start, can you please state your full names and spell them for me? STEPHEN LIBBY: Sure. Stephen Libby. S-T-E-P-H-E-N. Libby, L-I-B-B-Y. GG: Gary Gaugler, Jr. G-A-R-Y G-A-U-G-L-E-R, junior. LB: All right. And, could you please share your birth dates. SL: March 27, 1964. GG: July 8, 1983. LB: All righty. So, and I wanted -- we have to do this just for the location stuff -- what town are you in? and you're in Allentown. Is that correct? Good. So, this is the consent part. Do you consent to this interview today? SL: Yes. GG: Yes. LB: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in surgical formats? SL: Yes. GG: Yes. LB: Do you consent to the LGBT archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats, including films, articles, websites, presentations, and other formats we may not even know about today? SL: Yes. GG: Yes. LB: Do you understand that you'll have thirty days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview, identify any parts you'd like to delete, and withdraw your interview from the project if you so choose? SL: Yes. GG: Yes. LB: Okay. So, I need to ask you what your zip code is there? SL: 18103. LB: Okay. And what are your ages, it says on this sheet? Sort of redundant. GG: Yes. Thirty-seven. LB: I didn't get yours, Steve. GG: I'm sorry. Fifty-six. LB: Okay. How do you identify within the LGBTQ community? Transgender, gay, lesbian, bi, pansexual, blah blah blah. SL: Gay. GG: Gay. LB: Okay. And Cisgender? SL: Yes. No. Yes. Yes. LB: And I can say that because I know you, so it's not like I'm making a presumption. SL: Right. LB: So, you know, I sent you these questions already, and there are things to consider. If you don't want to talk about these things, I'm perfectly fine with that. You talk about whatever you want. But let me just ask you right up front, because we're asking everybody, who's in your house with you? I mean, so you look -- you guys both live there, but what else? Is there anybody else there? SL: We have two cats. We have Tigger and we have Nugget. Yes. LB: There you go. So that's good, because some people are all by themselves and it's very hard. So, have you both been working? And tell me about what you each do, and how you've been working during the pandemic and that (inaudible). SL: Okay. So I'm a social worker for a hospice agency. And I typically go out and do emotional support for patients, their families. That could be visits, phone calls, and work with the rest of our team, which includes nurses, aides, chaplain, to provide the best care for people at end of life. LB: Would you say that you are part of Lehigh Valley Health Network? What's your organization? SL: No. Bayada. LB: Okay. Gary, you want to... GG: I work in trade compliance. And that's dealing with imports and exports of our company's material. I work in a manufacturing facility in the Lehigh Valley. LB: So how's it been for work? Have you both been going regularly to work? Why don't you start out, since you started on the first part? SL: Yeah, sure. So when this first hit, I wasn't happy with the response from some people in my company, which tended to make me panic a little bit. And so, I started to do as much as I could do from home, which led to me being moved to per diem, and then led to me being furloughed for two months. And then was hired back part-time a month ago. And now I am going to be leaving that position. Friday will be my last day. LB: And are you done there and you're looking for something new? Or... SL: Yeah. I'm looking for something new. I think of the questions later, but just for a natural flow, I am, you know, just very concerned about going in to visit COVID positive people in COVID positive facilities or homes. As a social worker, I don't feel like I have the training, like a doctor or a nurse might, for this kind of epidemic. I'm just not really comfortable doing that. LB: Yeah. I can see that. What about your work situation, Gary? GG: We were all sent to work from home in late March. And my work has been very, very aggressive in their summoning us back. We were told in mid-to-late-May, and Pennsylvania was at its peak, that we should come back optionally. But June 1st, they wanted fifty percent back. July 1st was one hundred percent back. And we were told, when we all were back on July 1st, that they would not be sending us home again, no matter how bad it got, because they were so disappointed that when they told us we could optionally come back, that nobody did. And since then, we've had a couple of people leave because they've gotten COVID. And the governor has released a statement that -- an order -- that if you are able to telework, you must do so. And the company has refused to acknowledge that, and many people have reported them to the Pennsylvania Department of Health. And I've not heard anything. I'm sure they're quite swamped with what, you know, the reportings that they get on different businesses, because I doubt my company is the only one that feels they're above the law. So my workplace has become very hostile. Somebody brought in a doctor's note yesterday that said they should be able to work from home, they're high risk. It was immediately handed back to them, and they were told, "We can't allow you to, because anybody that's at high risk will want to work from home, then." And she said, "Well, we're all supposed to be working from home right now." And the response was, "Well, we're essential." But my understanding of the governor's and Dr. Levine's press conference, now two weeks ago, was it was not essential or non-essential. If you could telework, you were not to go to work. LB: I know hospital workers working from home that are absolutely essential, but they're working from home. I mean, I guess the definition of "essential" is that you have to be on-site, but if you can work from home, you're not essential for that. GG: Yeah. Right. SL: And Gary's business is kind of twisting the definition, or stretching the definition of "essential." GG: Yeah. When this whole thing started, my company is the world's largest global manufacturer of pipe fittings. And one of things that they also produce is sprinkler heads for fire protection in hospitals and hotels, anywhere you see fire sprinklers. And so they wrote to the governor and said, "We are essential. We create life-saving devices," and that was all true. The [Bradford's?] facility -- oops! Our facility in the Lehigh Valley has never, ever manufactured a sprinkler head. They're all manufactured in Leland, North Carolina. Oops. So, yeah, they've kind of been twisting everything from the beginning to make this work out in their favor, and creating this series of -- LB: I mean, is there a circumstance where, if you're working -- I mean, I have to say that we've been working from home, and I've done more work than I've ever done. I don't waste my time walking to work, you know. And, like, when you're at work, you feel like, "Well, I'm at work," whether you get work done or not. SL: Yeah. GG: Yeah. SL: Gary said that after he was working at home for a few weeks, his supervisor came back, or his director came back and said, "You know, we're tracking productivity, and productivity is higher than it's been for a long time with all of you guys working from home." But then, it seemed like -- I'll let you speak for yourself after I say this to lead into that -- is that you were saying that it seemed like they were just scared that once the pandemic was over, that people were going to want to continue to work from home. And so it seemed like that sent a panic through upper management, and then a rush to get people back into the office. LB: It's such a weird thing, because what this -- what we're all seeming to learn throughout this, from this pandemic, is that the way we all work can really be different. It doesn't need to be this way at all. GG: I agree. And the method to my madness when this whole thing first started, because my company is so old fashioned, and very truly old fashioned, not just with working from home options. But I knew that this was a rarity, and so my thought was, I'm going to, while I am home, I'm going to, you know, really overachieve so that I don't want them to think that we're slacking. And so I really wanted to do more than I usually do. Because, as you said, you go into work, and you're like, "Oh, what say (inaudible) say today? What time did (inaudible) say today?" You know, and you're in your own TMZ before you know it. It's just this spiraling, you know, whatever. So I really wanted to make a point that it was something that could be done, and I was not taking advantage of the situation. I can't speak for all 800 employees in office space that they did that, but I think it works for some people. Doesn't work for others. And I don't know why, after three months, they felt -- there should be a way to measure. If you're less productive, you have to come back and be watched. If not -- LB: I wonder if they get, like, a huge write-off or something for having a big building. You know, because it's hard to justify having a huge building if you don't want to have 35 -- GG: Well, also, not just that. Our CEO is friends with Pat Toomey, and they golf together regularly. And I've been informed that he is going to ask for the maximum amount of money back in whatever it is, emergency relief or whatever, because we are so essential that we're the only company in the Lehigh Valley that has 100 percent staff back daily. LB: I see. So you won't be able to say that if everybody's home. Okay, that's an interesting point of view. GG: It's always, as a gay man, it's always been very interesting to work. I've worked at this company for just under 14 years, and it's always been very interesting, not just towards gay people, but towards black people, towards Hispanic people, towards women, even, I mean, it's very cripplingly old fashioned. And so this is really the worst it's ever been. LB: Really makes you aware of it, it shows. GG: You know, you go into work for a business or a company knowing that even if they say, you know, employees are number one, you know the company's number one. And you understand that. You're working for the company. You want the company to do well as much as you want yourself to do well. But somewhere along the line, I feel like, at least for me, I feel like -- I said from the beginning of the pandemic, and I know I'm just talking and talking, but -- LB: That's okay, except for Steve. GG: I feel like, not just with companies, but with people, you're really seeing people for what they really are. And it's brought out a lot of good in people and a lot of caring in people. But it's also brought out a terrible, really awful side of people in businesses, and presidents. LB: (laughs) You know, you see this during war, too. Where people, in World War II, I think, in particular, where people were rationing because they needed rubber for the -- SL: Yeah. Sure. LB: And then people were stockpiling and hoarding it, and they were black market, and they were, you know, jacking up prices, and companies were profiteering and stuff. And then there were -- most people, frankly, a huge number of American, or people in the country who were just doing everything they could. Raising victory gardens and collecting rubber, and not -- and rendering fat, and doing all sorts of things like that, that every minute of every day, because they were thinking about people who were fighting and what they were fighting for. And people who were victims of war and oppression in Europe at the time. And, you know, it is -- I think this does show, in this kind of thing, how much are you willing to sacrifice? Well, nothing at all. Won't sacrifice anything, you know. I want to be totally like nothing has happened, even though everything has happened. And then other people who will say -- so, as I said, this is my twenty-ninth, of twenty-nine people I've interviewed -- I did the first ten were HIV/AIDS folks that lived through the epidemic. Was that different group of people, but I also talked to them all about COVID, too. Everyone has said the same thing, all the people that I've interviewed have said the same thing, that what you're saying -- that people -- a frustration, and I probably would ask you about this, too. But the frustration of people just acting like -- not pulling together at a time when we all need each other, you know. So are you communicating with other pals on the phone? Or are they coming over to swim? Or are they, you know, what's the deal? GG: (laughs) SL: When we -- I'm going to let Gary tell his story. He tells it very well. When he tells the story that you tell, when you first brought your mom into his home. GG: About having people over to swim? SL: No. Just that he brought his monitors home, and he said he was telling people to work, or maybe his mom on the way home on a phone call, "Oh, you know..." Because there's such an age difference, and we have a lot in common, but there's a lot of things we don't have in common, especially maybe hobbies and downtime and movies, you know, video games, stuff like that. So he goes, "Well, wait and see what the hell this is going --" GG: I was very excited to ditch my forty minute each way commute. But, yeah, as I drove home with all my work stuff, I thought to myself, "Oh, my God, I don't know what working with him at home, living with him, like, all full time is going to be like." And we kind of got around her question. But I'm going to finish. For us, I found, I think he's (laughs) I don't know. The whole time that we were home, at least before I went back to work, we got along maybe better than we ever did. And we got along very -- I mean, we get along very well. I think we're a pretty solid, functional couple to begin with. But, yeah, we really -- I think we've taken this whole pandemic so seriously, -- and really don't go out. We don't socialize. We don't have people here to socialize -- that we rely on each other. And I think that, kind of knowing that kept us from the usual stuck inside for a snow weekend or whatever, kept us from reverting to, "Oh my God, it's you again." SL: Yeah. So we talked with other medical professionals in the beginning of this, when I was per diem, and then when I was furloughed for two months, and Gary was already working from home. And so we had a good two months, a little bit more, together at home. The room that we're sitting in right now is kind of our big great room that they added on to the house between the main house and then going out to the back yard. So Gary had this room all to himself during the work hours during the day. I would work in the living room inside the main house. And I think we both, after talking with those medical professionals, came to the same conclusion, that we only wanted to go out if it was absolutely necessary. And then that was also what was being told to us by our governor and by Secretary of Health Levine. And so that's what we were trying to adhere to. And I would make a list and go to the grocery store and spend 500 dollars, and that would last us for a month. And I didn't want to go back there again until we absolutely needed to go back. We didn't visit any friends. We started a Zoom happy hour on Friday afternoons, late Friday afternoon. Then we started Zooming with, or Facetiming, whatever, with his family as well. And they all live local, but we didn't have any of them over. They didn't have us over. Then we started Zooming with my family in Maine. Then we started Zooming with friends in Florida, with friends in Tennessee. And we kept that up, especially the local guides that are mostly on our kickball team, you know, on the Friday nights. So we did that, and it seemed like some of them kind of got tired of it after a few weeks. GG: When we went to yellow and green, everybody -- we were the only ones that were still serious about it. (laughs) SL: Yeah. And so, that was okay. I mean, you know, they can do what they want to do. And then we just started doing it more with my family on Friday nights. And then what we did do when we opened the pool, is that we had, we'd been having Gary's parents over. And they sit a good ten feet from us at another table. We have our own table. They'd bring their own food, they'd bring their own alcohol. So this back room has three doors. They have their own door to go immediately into the basement to change and/or use the bathroom. And when they leave, we just wipe everything down, we keep everything closed. And that's what we've been doing for the last few weeks, when it's been nice enough on a Saturday, and they'll come over for a few hours. And that's really our only live socialization. LB: Yeah. Wow. Well, I can't -- SL: Again, we're going to the grocery store. I don't think we've done -- we for a three-and-a-half-mile walk. I still do that every day, even since Gary's gone back to work. And we were doing that pretty religiously every day if it wasn't raining or whatever. And a little bit of -- we don't have a home gym, so a little bit of a workout that I learned some stuff from my sister, who teaches physical fitness training online, so (inaudible). And I've been working on the magazine for two issues. Yeah. LB: Yeah. It's pretty intense. SL: Oh, and we have a vegetable garden that's much healthier and pretty soon, more than the one we had last year. We planted more flowers. LB: Everybody's garden is way better than it's ever been. SL: Yeah. And we've done some home projects. I painted the bedroom. And, you know, things that we didn't -- that we were putting off, procrastinating since we moved in. LB: Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting that world that biggest divided that stays it divided between people who really did a lot of projects and found out that they just weren't going to do any projects, even though -- [Melinda Kahn?] said to me, "You know, I had always thought that -- I'd always planned that when I had time, I would work on these big projects because I was so into them. But apparently, I'm not." (laughter) Couldn't do it. And I talked to two other people who said stuff like, "I said I was going to do stuff and I didn't." I just say that I've been maniacal about doing stuff. So, like, I took all the nuts and bolts and stuff in the basement and divided them. And there's like hundreds of jars with little labels and stuff. That's really anal retentive. I was building things and -- crazy. SL: You may get a cat's ass in a minute. This happened the other night. LB: Yeah, get this. Hi, buddy. SL: Hello. That's Tigger. LB: Tigger. Yeah, I could tell. We have a lot of stray cats in our yard. And apparently, there's a lot more stray cats in the world in the 'burbs and stuff, Tigger, because -- Tigger (inaudible) are cats. Because restaurants are selling food to people that they take it away, and throwing the food away in their garbage cans behind the restaurants, restaurants where cats hang out. And so it really changed the patterns of most kinds of animals. They're seeking out houses and stuff to hang around (inaudible). It's scary. SL: I think we also found out, you know, like, that we are taking -- we're at one end of the spectrum. GG: We're extreme. SL: We're pretty extreme, we're finding out compared to other people, friends, relatives. Actually, our relatives are pretty good, but our friends, you know, are going on vacations, Outer Banks, stuff like that. Posting pictures, no masks, no social distancing. GG: No masks, cheek-to-cheek. SL: And we're like, so we don't want to invite them over to the pool. We don't want to really -- we haven't even gone out. We haven't done any kind of carryout, which we feel bad about because we want to support places. But I don't know that I'd be able to enjoy it. We found that we both like to cook more than we thought we did. We have build your own pizza night on Friday nights for the last eighteen weeks. GG: Nothing Trish level yet. (laughs) SL: No, but we have done crab meat pizza. We've done meatloaf pizza. We've done a bunch of things that are fun. LB: That's wonderful. SL: Made some fun desserts. Gary's been making vegetable scrambled eggs almost every Sunday. We didn't get tired of those for a long time. The last two weeks we didn't do them, but sixteen or seventeen weeks, so.... LB: What do you have in the garden? SL: So, you want to answer that? I've been talking for a while. GG: Tomatoes, cucumbers, zucchini, radish, beets. SL: Pumpkin. GG: Pumpkins. And flowers. That's it. LB: Wow. Great. SL: And then we had mint, and we inherited from the previous owners a huge raspberry bush, which just keeps tipping over a little bit more and little bit more each year. So that was great. We got about, I would say, eight or ten cups of those. And then, you know, the neighbors on either side, so the young couple on this side with a two-year-old. And then we have an older couple that's mostly retired on this side. And, you know, we've noticed that they're doing things totally differently, too. They'll have family over, not really social distancing and stuff like that. And again, people would probably look at Gary's parents coming over. We're not wearing masks, but -- GG: They're far away. SL: They sit far away from us. LB: I have to say that of all the people I've interviewed -- I've interviewed twenty-nine people -- they have been extraordinarily -- they'll all like you. And Trish and I are even -- we don't even go to the store. We don't go to the grocery store. SL: Do you order? So you're ordering out? You're ordering delivery? LB: We were. And then we have a young person in our life who came back from college and had COVID-19, and it was serious, but she has totally recovered. And so she has a lot of antibodies. They tested her through the Lehigh Valley Health Network. So she shops for us, and we don't even have to feel guilty about the fact that she might get this, because she is less likely to get it. She's got the highest level defense that one could have, as long as that lasts. She's going back to college in a couple of weeks, and then we'll have to go back to either ordering stuff or doing what we're doing. And, you know, we wanted to get -- Trish loves to get chicken from Mr. Bill's, but Mr. Bill's will not order -- like, we can't pay them in advance and go pick up stuff. They won't do drop off, and we've been their customer for thirty years, thirty-three years. And they won't even, like, bring the stuff -- they have a door right behind their booth. Just call them, say we want eight chicken breasts, here's the money over the phone, and we'll just come and get it. Why would they not do that? I mean, you know, it's very upsetting, because that, not being able to shop, is just driving Trish crazy, because she does everything based on, you know, bargains. And she said, like, "I could be getting a flat of strawberries at the farmers' market and canning one hundred jars of strawberry jelly. And you could get it for ten dollars. You can't get that anyplace else. I could be getting it, but I'd have to be there, and I'd have...." She did that every year for -- she just canned thirteen jars of grape jelly from the grapes in the backyard. SL: Wow. Cool. LB: But, so anyway, what's your biggest concern in the pandemic, you know, for your personal biggest concern? And then also, just sort of for the LGBTQ community, if you could (inaudible). So what do you think about that, guys? SL: My biggest concern -- well, so I would say my biggest concern personally would be for our families, obviously. And then also for myself, because I have smoked for years. I've had different ailments. I usually get bronchitis once or twice a year. I mean, all these other things. And when I was doing hospice, you know, you would find that everybody that you go visit is also treating it differently. And that can depend on something as stupid as politics, you know. I got into a conversation with a woman who, said, "Oh, and so I'll be wearing a mask. Will you be able to wear a mask when I visit?" and she said, "Yeah, well, you know, wearing masks. And she --" LB: I've lost the sound for you. SL: Oh, I'm sorry. What did I do? LB: What happened? SL: Hello. LB: There you go. That's good. SL: So she just said that she felt that it was all overblown, and it really wasn't, you know, "Don't you think we're making too big of a thing out of this?" and I said, "Well, you know, I have to go and visit other patients after I visit you. I also have to come home. And so, I'm asking if you can wear a mask, it would be appreciated." And so she did. To her credit, she did. But, you know, a lot of what she was saying sounds like what we're hearing out of our leaders, some of our leaders. So it just is concerning. You now, when we are taking this very seriously, and then you go out to the grocery store or whatever, and you realize, well, jeez, not everyone's taking this seriously. And yet, could we sluff off a little bit? I guess. But I don't know why we would, really. GG: It's frustrating because we did this thinking it would be gone, like the other countries, in a few months. And so, to see it continue on when we've been doing what we were told to do from the beginning is frustrating. LB: Right. I mean, in England, where they shut down every single household, you could not leave your house for three months. And it's gone. They're shooting television shows with audiences full of people, and they're safe because they've all been tested and they all know that there's no danger and stuff, because they -- you know, and they, for 90 days, they stayed inside. Not one single person went outside in the entire country under penalty of law. And then it's okay. And then they're now -- we're (inaudible) still going to be a little careful and stuff like that. But for the most part, they've tested enough to really know, it's not there anymore. SL: Right. Right. LB: You know, that's the other thing, too, is that we haven't had that adequate testing, and that could have been something that could have really controlled this all along, too. GG: But, Liz, hear me out on this. The more you test, the more cases you'll find. LB: I know. GG: (laughs) LB: But for people in the future that are watching this video years from now (laughter)... GG: Sorry. I should have -- LB: The leader of our country said that the problem -- that we all don't hold in high regard -- said that if you test people, they will find more cases and the numbers will go up of the people who have had it. So then he didn't want people to be tested. SL: Well, and if for people that are watching this in the future, if you don't get a pregnancy test, you're not pregnant. LB: (laughs) Yeah, that's right. SL: And the logic follows. GG: And so I'm going to -- so, to your question, I would echo exactly what Steve said about concerns for obviously myself, my family. As a smoker as well, as a family of half and half smokers, and just some old people. But for the LGBT community, you know, I want to say I don't know if it's the administration, I don't know if it was because, God forbid, we asked people to stay inside for two months. I don't know if I'm just blind to what I thought we were as a country, but, you know, we've seen this whole outbreak of racist nonsense with black people and lynchings and nooses hanging from trees and, you know, white lives matter, all lives matter. And I look at Steve, and I don't want to sound ignorant, I really don't, and if I am, then I'm sorry. I always think we're good. Like, we're good, all of us, because I guess I put myself in a bubble where I don't associate with, or people like that don't associate with me, these people that feel this way. And our administration has felt this need to tell these people that I didn't really think were around anymore, to speak their minds and speak out. And, you know, as somebody that's studied history in college to be -- at one point I wanted to be a history teacher. I know that the blacks are cursed, and it's just going to spiral on from there. It's going to be the Jews. It's going to be the gays. It's going to -- it's certainly, it's trans. Trans has never gone out of style for being prejudiced against. So I just worry that we're the next in these peoples' freedom of speech to bash and go after their rights. SL: Liz, I think I lost your audio. GG: It's hers, I think. LB: I turned it off because I had a call. SL: There you go. LB: So you've talked about communicating with people around, and in some ways, I feel like I'm communicating a little more with people far away than I used to. So have you been doing any other sort of queer activities? You told me you were working on the magazine. Talk about the magazine, Steve, because I think that's an important thing. SL: So, yeah. The first issue that we worked on, so that would have been the summer issue, when the pandemic started, I couldn't bring myself to ask anyone if they had money to advertise in that issue. So that was an online only issue. We still produced it. It was still thirty-ish pages. My designer still worked on it. We still paid him. We posted it on the website. It's a beautiful looking issue. I really wish that we could have printed that. It came out -- we had some great artists and photography work in it, and great interviews. And all the contributors, including you, always come up with interesting, informative, entertaining content. And so that issue is online only for now. And then I started working on the fall issue. And I thought, well, you know, people started doing curbside and carryout and all this other stuff. And I thought, all right, I'm still going to put it out there, in case people do want to advertise. And, surprisingly, we got quite a few advertisers that came back, admittedly, probably about a third of what we usually get, but I was surprised that anyone came back. And so we talked with the printer about what paper options we had. You know, we thought maybe we had to change out paper to save a little bit of money because paper costs have been going up over the five years that we've been doing the magazine. And I think I had one ad rate increase in those five years, and we had paper increases, gosh, probably every, I don't know, four or five months. So I only passed that on once. Then she sent me some samples. I looked at some of the samples after wiping them all off with Clorox wipes once they arrived in my mailbox, because that's what a freak I am. And so I looked at those. And, anyway, so there was one, a non-glossy option that I thought was actually pretty good. So we talked about that. We talked about the money that that was going to cost. And so we're going to print 2,000 copies of that. And, because of that, and because of a couple of late advertisers, who were actually going to ad some pages from the -- actually we were going to add some pages anyway, because we're doing coming out stories for the first time, and we have over twenty people that volunteered to tell their coming out stories. Then we had the Black Lives Matter movement, so we had a couple of interviews. And then we have a centerfold with photos from the Black Lives movement protest from Philly and Lehigh Valley. And then we had some transgender. Corinne Goodman's writing something about trans black lives mattering, and deaths, and it's so far this year. And so then I thought, well, you know, there's some stuff in the summer issues. Maybe we can include that. So we added a few more pages. And we're going to include some of the stuff from the summer issue that was, you know, some of those great photos and artwork and stuff like that. LB: Yeah. Good. SL: So we're going to still have the glossy covers, and then the interior will be a non-gloss paper. And it's seventy-four pages plus covers instead of our regular forty-eight pages. LB: Do I need to do an article, or did I do one already? SL: You already did one. You did it about the Supreme Court -- LB: Yeah. The Bostock kids, yeah. Good, okay. That was smart of me. (laughs) SL: No, you have to do it, and our deadline is the 3rd of August. (laughter) LB: I would do it. You know, you and I -- SL: I know, but no, no, no. You're good. LB: You know, they're interviewing me for the archive, for the oral history now. And Mary [Paltz?] is doing it, and I said, "Mary, you know, I can't tell this story in one gig." So it's actually been like, I think, five sessions. And one of them, I was talking about how when we did the {Galligan?] Press, how some of us can just, like Trish, would research her article for days and days and days. And they were so meticulous with research. And I said, "Yes, Steve and I would spend about one day." I'm like, "Steve, you forgot to do your article." He said, "I'll get it to you in a few minutes." (laughs) SL: Every once in a while it would work. LB: And I said, "Trish and I don't know anything about pop culture anymore because that's the only way we ever knew anything was, oh, this was that person Steve was talking about." SL: Yep. I'm not going to belabor the point, but Gary's even thought about maybe writing a fourth book in his series, and so -- which I would love to see. And he actually had -- someone wrote to him the other day about, "Is there another book coming out?" So that was kind of cool. And, anyway, he doesn't like to talk about it, so we won't. GG: You probably heard me go, oh my God, under my breath at him. So you can edit that out. (laughter) LB: I think that it's really important for people to know about creative work that people are doing. I think that's a good thing to do. And I was just thinking, maybe I should write another book. I've got a few. I'm working like a maniac for the center, but I'm also doing a lot of stuff to the house, and I'm doing a lot of art that's going to be a highlight through the Fry Festival. We're going to have this really interesting thing at the Fry Festival where, because it's virtual, you know, it's going to be on television and everything like that. But there's also a way to have booths where we're using a platform where it looks like you're walking into a gallery, and then each (inaudible) in the gallery, you can maneuver through the gallery. Each painting is like the booth. And then you go to that booth, and all their information is there, and then you can click through to their website. So it's actually got a booth component to the festival. And so, I was the first one. I said, give me a booth and I'll do art, and then maybe we can, you know, I'll do that. So then I said, "Trish, now I've got to do a whole bunch of paintings so I could do this gig." You know, because we don't -- SL: Right. LB: And it happens, because I have to make this worthwhile. I'm too old to just blow off two or three years, you know. I don't have that much extra time. It's true for older people. So have you known anybody that's been sick? Or more than sick? SL: No. Right. GG: Well, a couple of people. For me, people on Facebook that, you know, you know how Facebook works. It's not direct friends necessarily. It's -- a couple of people on Facebook that we know have had it. But nobody close to me. SL: No. LB: Did you say there were people at work that had it? GG: Yeah. Again, nobody close to me. LB: Uh-huh. Yeah. I guess that's one of the problems is that, right now, anyway, in the pandemic, there are lots of people who don't know anybody that's had it. We know some people, and I'll tell you about that later. GG: I just want a quick add onto the that and just say, he's very nice. We had somebody over to work on the pool a couple of weeks ago, and he said to me -- I came to the door wearing a mask -- and he said, "Oh, are we doing that?" and he's about seventy years old. And I said, "Yep. We're doing that." And he goes, "Well, you know, Hillary just concocted this whole thing so the Democrats would win." And I said, you know, he's here to do a job. I'm like, "Oh, okay." I'm not about -- LB: How do you do that? I mean, she's not even running for office. GG: I know. I'm just so -- I've come to the point in this term that I can't -- you can't convince anyone anymore. There's no logic for some people. And so I just said, "Okay." And I left it at that. And he went on this tirade about how, and he goes, "Do you know anyone personally that's gotten this?" And I said, "Not personally." I said, "But I know people that are close to me in their lives that have someone in their family or a close friend that have had it." And he's like, "Exactly. You don't know anyone, though. Nobody actually knows anyone that has it." I'm like, "Okay." I just -- I'm so young to be over it, but I'm not arguing with the nonsense anymore. I'm just not. You do your thing, I'll do mine. But if you're on my property, please wear a mask. LB: (laughs) That's reasonable to say. Yeah. So that's probably a big frustration. And that's one of the things we have on here, frustrations, fears, and challenges. And I think we already talked about some of those things. Is there anything else? SL: I think the frustration is, people, you know, that we're taking it at a different level than other people. Because -- GG: We know we're taking it more seriously than most. SL: But it's still frustrating. Because, again, if it was like you said about England, and we all took it as seriously as each other, and we all shut down, we'd be over it in three months. GG: We made it -- when they announced it, everybody else saw it as this prison sentence. And we immediately took the high road and said, "This'll be cute. This'll be fun. We'll buy ingredients and we'll do all this cooking. We'll have our own little, like --" and he's way more social than I am. And I was like, I wanted to make sure that he was engaged, so we were doing, like, game night things, and different movie theme nights, and we're Zooming with all these different people. And I never felt like it was that big of an ask to not go out and spread germs for a couple of months. Honestly. LB: And had we all -- had every American, so to speak -- done that, done the right thing, we'd be done. We'd be done. We'd be back at work. We'd be back kicking the economy and stuff like that. But it's a shame. So, would you say that your mental health has been pretty good during all this fun? You guys seem like you're in pretty good shape. SL: I think when we talk about it with someone like you, I think we're in pretty good shape. I think, you know, there's anxiety when Gary comes home from work because they're still -- they're actually being way more aggressive with getting people back to work, telling people if they leave, they're going to consider that their resignation if they're concerned about safety and all this other stuff. So I think in some ways, it's gotten a little worse anxiety-wise for us. And to the point that I, you know, quit my job. It's not (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible). I'm not like really fighting with the people that are my supervisor or directors. We've known each other for years. But we've had conversations, and they're really just towing the line from above them. Just like Gary's supervisor that's towing the line. Because they're both global companies. I think Gary's is probably a much larger global company than mine. But Bayada has offices around the world, and you know, there's somebody else that's up here that's telling everyone else what to do. And I feel like if you -- you know, everyone has to make their own decisions that are what they feel are best for them. I think there was, when I was furloughed, I felt great. I didn't really feel much anxiety, except when I had to go grocery shopping. And when I went back to work for this past month, it was high anxiety a lot, because I didn't know if I was going to get called to go in to see a COVID patient in a COVID facility, when different people telling me what different PPE to wear. And then, again, the same thing with Gary's work. Some people are wearing masks, some people are not. They're not enforcing it because they are looking at it the other way. You know, people are complaining, "It's against my freedom. I don't have to wear a mask. I shouldn't have to wear a mask. You can't force me." Versus looking at it from the other perspective that everyone should be wearing a mask so that we're all safe. And, you know, they don't look at it that way. LB: You know, as my friend, [Laura Baterra?] said, "You know, people are forced to wear things all the time." We wear clothes. SL: Right. Exactly. LB: We're forced to wear clothes. I was talking to Steve Ziminsky, he's one of the people I interviewed, and he said that they had some really interesting insights about the way Allentown schools are, and how they really can't open. And one of the things is they're not air conditioned. A lot of them are not air conditioned. And September, they could be so hot, what they do is, they take all the kids, and they bring them down into air conditioned, like, auditoriums, and just cram them all into the auditorium. So they won't be able to do that. So what are they going to do? Leave these kids up in that one hudnred-degree temperature? They're all going to pass out. So they can't do that. They haven't put enough money into this school system to be able to accommodate this kind of circumstance. But he was also talking about his roommate, Liam, and I don't know if you ever knew that guy that lived in Steve's house, and he had a pretty serious heart condition, and now he's in a nursing home. And it's not Country Meadows, it's one that's just over the one in Allentown. It's a pretty big nursing home. And I can't remember the name of it. But it's one of the big ones we have right here in the Lehigh Valley. And he as serious, serious heart condition. And he got COVID. A hundred patients in that place had it. SL: Lehigh Center. LB: Was it? SL: Was it Lehigh Center? I mean, that's what it sounds like. LB: It was a nursing home that had one of those names that we recognize that's like Country Meadows. SL: Oh, like Cedarbrook? LB: Yeah. It was Cedarbrook. And Cedarbrook, they had 100 cases. They had a whole floor where they moved everybody onto that floor. And, you know, they're not telling people who's dying, because they don't want to tell, "By the way, there's six people down the hall that just kicked off." But you know, Steve was in touch with him, and it's hard to be in touch with him, because they don't have enough platforms and stuff for people. He said, "I haven't seen him. I haven't seen any of these people, but it's -- all these people had it." So it was very, very serious. And it's not like it's not happening. They had hundreds and hundreds of cases in Allentown. It's very serious. But, so you're already talking a little bit about Black Lives Matter. Do you want to say anything else about that? Or anything else about -- well, you've already talked about that. I mean, we can't really talk about this pandemic without talking about Black Lives Matter, and without politics. GG: I just think it's very disappointing that we're even still having the conversation. LB: Yeah. GG: Really, all I have to say about it, I guess I live in a delusional world where all of this does not matter anymore because people are smarter than this. But.... SL: Well, and I also think it just complicated, you know, having COVID happening while Black Lives Matter protests were happening. You know, it really complicated things because, again, I didn't feel comfortable going out and taking part in marches and stuff like that. I mean, we live vicariously through Facebook and what we were seeing on the news, and friends of our that actually did go out, that either had young African American -- you know, adolescent African American children that wanted to go out and be part of this, or witness this, or be part of history. And so yeah. I mean, there's -- it's all just really hateful from -- I don't know. I really feel like it's from -- it's always been around, but I also feel like those flames get fanned by our administration that's in charge of the country. And so, I feel like that's the same with trans lives. I know that trans people were being killed before this administration, but it seems like it's increased. GG: It's emboldened people. SL: Yeah. LB: It has. SL: And not in a good way. LB: No. That's very true. Well, what gives you hope now, besides your kitties? Each other? GG: Kamala Harris as V.P. LB: Okay. That sounds like a good deal. SL: Well, so yeah, I do think maybe Joe Biden gives us hope. I hope that the country -- I hope that there's enough people that maybe couldn't vote for Hillary because that didn't excite them, that are disappointed enough to vote for Biden. I mean, I really think that realistically, that's what we're looking at. LB: I saw a meme about Biden, and he had a picture of him, and he said, "Well, let me read you my platform." And then the bottom of the meme said, "You had me at let me read." GG: Right. SL: (laughs) Well, Gary has said this since day one after Trump won. GG: I mean, I'll vote for the garbage can if the garbage can gets the nomination. I'll vote for anything. I mean, I -- he was my last pick. But he still towers about what's there, so... SL: Biden. LB: And we really hope, too, that -- you, person who is in the future watching this -- we're really hoping that Biden is smart enough -- GG: He worked out. (laughs) LB: Well, I mean, a whole cadre of people in his cabinet, and as his vice president and stuff, because we've seen really terrific people that we could build an enormous super administration out of. It doesn't just have to be one guy. And so, you know, there's the Secretary of Health, and the Secretary of State, and the Secretary of Education, and we know the terrible people that are in there now. They could be great. What if they were great? You know. So, we've got all that opportunity. And if you start to think about it, it's a dream team. So that, I think, would bring a lot of people out to vote. A lot of young people out to vote. SL: I hope so. LB: Very, very important. That's what everybody says. Have to say that none of us are very, very, very, very confident. None of us are. SL: I was confident when I went to bed that Tuesday evening.... LB: I know. I know. GG: The cat threw up at about two in the morning, and Steve got up to clean up the cat vomit. And I reached over, grabbed my iPad, and I went, "Oh, my God." And he goes, "I'm half asleep. Don't tell me. Don't tell me anything." SL: "I need to be able to go back to sleep." GG: And there were still, at that point, there were still a couple of states -- I didn't do the math. I was half asleep myself. I don't know if we could have made it at that point or not. But it was not good. And... LB: I know. I know. I haven't slept since that night. SL: All right. Exactly. GG: You're right. SL: We had a -- LB: Well, actually, it was about six months before that when I started to begin to worry about it. So anyway. GG: Well, and I hope somebody has written, like, not a big, long history book, but just like, almost like a good Chicken Soup for the Soul kind of thing, but not. Where it just -- what he did each day. Because we keep looking at each other and going, "It's something every day." And we keep forgetting because your brain needs to make room for the new things. And so, there's just so -- every day he says or does something that makes us go, oh, my God. (laughs) Very depressing. SL: And that's what I think, you know, of the pandemic on top of three years of that. You asked me about mental health and all that stuff, I think that that was just another kick in your balls, you know. And then Black Lives Matter. And trans people being murdered. And Jesus, God, you know. And I'm just glad we haven't seen the orange wasps or whatever the -- GG: (laughs) Killer hornets. SL: The murder hornets. I don't know. And so, hopefully, we're not going to see those. GG: No, but every time I see one of those cicada killer wasps in the yard, one of those. I'm like, is it? Is it? (laughs) LB: Oh, I saw one of those. We had that in our yard, too. GG: They're terrifying looking. LB: They're not bad, though, are they? SL: They're not bad, but they look bad. LB: They are huge and they have -- they're wearing that, like, orange jacket. GG: And they're not afraid to break social distancing rules. They will get close to you, and it's like -- SL: But they're so dressed up. Like, what's that? (laughs) LB: Fabulous. I took a picture of one because it was so fabulous. But they aren't bad, because they get the bugs that will eat all of our leaves. So I guess (inaudible). Well, I have had a wonderful time talking to you guys. I'm going to turn off the recorder, and then I want to say a couple of things to you offline. SL: Okay. LB: Is there anything else you'd like to tell the future? And say, you know, here's what the story is about this now, and we hope you're doing this -- SL: I don't think so. Just, you know, say hello to your president, Rachel Levine, in the future. (laughs) Because she's doing a great job right now. LB: From us. Yeah. One of the things [Ollie Riley?] just said was, "Yeah, this is what I want to say to the future. If we can work this hard during a pandemic, you better have fixed it." SL: (laughs) Yeah. Right. LB: I thought that was a really good thing to say. SL: Yup. LB: I think that's really true. We're trying to manage all these civil rights and social concerns in the midst of a pandemic. SL: Oy. LB: It's very hard. And so, you know, you don't have to be in pandemic, you should be doing really well. Well, so I'm going to turn off the record thing. Thank you very much, guys. GG: Thank you. SL: Thanks for including us. END OF VIDEO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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01:00:56
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Title
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Stephen Libby & Gary Gaugler, Jr., July 29, 2020
Description
An account of the resource
Steve and Gary talk about how the COVID-19 virus is affecting them. They talk about each working from home and how it affects themselves and each other. They talk about what it’s like at their jobs, and how possible exposure to infection has caused them to reconsider their employment and why. They describe the care they are taking to stay safe and consider why they are not speaking time with people who are not caring the kind of care they are.
Identifier
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PH40_20
Subject
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
Date
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2020-07-29
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
Publisher
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Copyright remains with the interview subject and their heirs.
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https://lgbt.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/91611205b1e4106dcef8650afa8cff87.png
76e8fc50278704a9b7c966399a76f204
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
An account of the resource
In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Liz Bradbury
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Miles Molerio
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Viewer)
https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_19.xml
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka
5.4 July 27, 2020 Miles Molerio, July 27, 2020 PH40_19 00:57:35 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Miles Molerio Liz Bradbury video/mpeg MolerioMiles_20200727_video.mp4 1.0:|23(12)|42(14)|71(8)|96(13)|129(5)|162(7)|191(7)|214(8)|243(3)|264(10)|289(14)|322(5)|349(9)|372(18)|397(8)|426(5)|451(10)|472(12)|495(3)|514(7)|535(15)|562(2)|583(11)|606(9)|639(12)|662(13)|697(3)|726(9)|763(6)|794(3)|825(14)|856(12)|881(16)|906(4)|929(11)|952(12)|973(14)|992(8)|1013(13)|1042(13)|1067(11)|1088(13)|1111(14)|1138(4)|1163(3)|1190(18)|1213(2)|1222(10)|1241(2)|1278(7)|1309(17)|1336(13)|1369(4)|1398(9)|1421(12)|1450(10)|1489(9)|1506(5) 0 https://youtu.be/QQWZgibNMfE YouTube video 0 Interview Introduction LB: So, with this project, Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and Trexler Library at the Muhlenberg College will collect forty years of public health experience in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community, collecting and curating local GBT health experiences from HIV AIDS to COIVD-19. My name is Liz Bradbury, and I’m here with Miles Molerio -- is that right? 0 224 Quarantining with friends' family during pandemic MM: So, I’ve been quarantining with my friend, Sarah, and her family, after my college forced us all to leave. 
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 ; LB: I see. Oh, so you’ve been there a long time then?
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 ; MM: I’ve been here since March. 
 ; 0 266 Graduating from Moravian University and working as the school's mascot LB: And now, you’re getting ready to go to graduate school. But have you been working or --
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 ; MM: Kind of. Well, I was still in school, technically, online, for Moravian. I’ve been doing some promotional work for them as the mascot, making videos and whatever the media department needed because I --
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 ; LB: So, tell me what the mascot is. 0 336 Completing school online MM: Not really. I have some issues with light sensitivity, so being on the computer for hours and hours -- migraines, headaches. I had a couple accommodations with the college, but it wasn’t really working, since everything was online. So, I just kind of suffered, and pulled through it, and got my grades, and left. 0 408 Staying in touch with others MM: Yeah, so, especially being a graduating student -- and I work a lot for my college. There’s a lot of things that didn’t get to happen. I was an RA as well, a resident advisor, so I had a lot of students I oversaw. They were really sad that we weren’t together anymore. So, we get together just about every week and do a little face call and speak to each other, just check in how everyone’s doing. Just a lot of FaceTiming and calling people. 0 514 Discussing "Zoom bombing" MM: It was a large group when school was still in session. A lot of my residents are music majors, so they had an online composers concert, where they were able to play music files of what the kids were composing to at least get them some kind of concert. I was there watching, supporting my friends and my former residents, and some guy hacked into the Zoom call and started saying the N word and writing the N word all over the place on the screen. 
 ; 0 715 Staying in touch with aunt/Aunt's and mom's reactions to being trans/Staying in touch with family MM: I have a brother. I have an older brother. But yeah.
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 ; LB: But you have aunts and uncles that you’re having good -- I remember that, actually, that you had some -- a particularly cool aunt. Is that true? 
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 ; MM: My Aunt Debbie, yeah.
 ; 0 935 Biggest concerns for self and LGBT community during pandemic MM: [...] Because my biggest concern for myself was my mental health, and I think that also transcribes over to the whole community, as a whole. It’s so, so rough. I’m very energetic -- as you know -- person. I’m a very personable person. I like to be around people, my friends, hang out. I don’t get to anymore. FaceTiming and talking on the phone is one thing. But I miss just sitting and hanging out with my friends, and I don’t know, playing video games or just talking. Just being around people that are different than the ones I’m living with. 
 ; 0 1099 Thoughts on Dr. Rachel Levine MM: I very much appreciate her. I love seeing the updates that she puts up. I follow all that on Facebook, so I get the updates on COVID in Pennsylvania, so I know what’s going on when I go back soon. Especially in the day of social media, I think it’s a little -- you know what’s going on with her, and people are being so horrific toward her for just being trans. 0 1230 Using queer data and hookup apps during the pandemic MM: I think it’s so funny because I’ve had these apps. I know people have the very queer-centric ones, like the really gay-centric and the queer-centric ones. I’ve tried those ; I don’t like them. Not enough people. 0 1339 Location during the pandemic/Friends' parents working in the health industry during the pandemic/Opening of schools in Hampton, Massachusetts LB: So, are you going out, or are you pretty much staying in? Or what about the other people in the -- where you are, in the house? Are they pretty much staying in? Are people at risk? Or what do you think about that? 
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 ; MM: We have all pretty much stayed here ever since March. The only person who’s really been out of the house has been my friend’s mom and dad because her dad owns his own health business. He actually owns a company that sells the technology for telehealth. 0 1498 Sharing ads for LGBT events online MM: Not really. I share a lot of stuff. When I see that there’s events going on for queer folks, I share it on my social media because I have a lot of friends and queer friends, and kind of share that with them. 0 1563 Going out during the pandemic LB: Golly. So, do you go to the store? So, the mom goes to the store and just brings food in, and you’re just there like, “Thank you very much?”
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 ; MM: Yeah.
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 ; LB: Have you gone to McDonald’s?
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 ; MM: She goes to the grocery store. Huh?
 ; 0 1624 Concern over friends' family going on vacation in the middle of the pandemic/Experience living in Hampton, MA MM: They went to North Carolina. They have a beachfront down there. So, they’re doing their best to socially distance as much as possible. It’s their home. So, they brought their own groceries, their own cleaning supplies, everything, just to not have to go out. The more southern you go, the more spikes there are. 
 ; 0 1737 Passing the time with reading and restoring a/learning the saxophone MM: Yeah, I bought some books recently. My boss for my job at Lehigh, my graduate assistantship, sent me some books for student leadership, student affairs kind of stuff. I’ve been catching up on some hobbies. The only kind of thing I actually went out to do is I went to a barn sale. 
 ; 0 1960 Biggest frustration during the pandemic/Biggest fear during the pandemic MM: [...] I think my most frustration is when I see people not abiding by any social distancing things. I had to go to the grocery store before my friend’s parents left, and we’re in the grocery store, and they have they have the signs “you must wear a mask.” And there’s people wearing masks, and I think the most frustrating thing is when people have the masks on --
 ; 0 2161 Point of hope during the pandemic MM: Hope and strength right now is every time I look up Moderna and they’re phase three of the vaccine. I keep very on top of the vaccine info. I don’t just watch the news, see what they say. I go look it up and see what the actual companies are saying and what the reports are looking like. That’s the only thing really giving me a lot of hope, is that they’re going into phase three of the trial. And after phase three, so close to get (inaudible) out to the public. 0 2236 Having an anti-mask friend MM: I do. I don’t know why we’re friends, but we are. She has been good to me, respectful of me. And we’re opposite on the political spectrum. She’s my age. Actually, she’s younger. I know. It’s strange. We’ve always been kind to one another. Great friend of mine. And always respectful towards one another. But she, on Facebook -- oh my God. 0 2361 Thoughts on why some people are skeptical about pandemic precautions/Developing an open-minded point-of-view through a college education MM: I think it’s based off of where you’re raised. You grow up in a household that is particularly Republican or very right-winged, you learn from your parents. I could say the same thing. My parents were hateful. My parents said the N word.
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 ; LB: You’re not like that.
 ; 0 2551 Discussing centrist stances on racism MM: And there’s no place for middle ground anymore. Either you’re on one side, or the other. You can’t be in the middle anymore because being in the middle is just as bad as being racist.
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 ; LB: What’s the middle?
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 ; MM: Omnipotence and just oblivious, like I don’t see color kind of people. 
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 ; LB: Such a crock that is. I don’t see color. 0 2638 Being considerate to the health of others/Knowing of people who have contracted Covid-19 LB: It would be hard, I think, for your friend that you -- all of you are sort of getting on her and saying, “You’re talking about killing our friend. How can we just overlook that?” I think that’s a pretty effective way of making an argument. 
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 ; MM: We have tried. I think she’s just so thick-skilled. I don’t understand how people just can’t have compassion for another human being. 0 2783 Thoughts on Black Lives Matter MM: It is as white as eggs on toast up here. But surprisingly enough, for this little area, where there are quite a bit of Trump posters and things, there was a Black Lives Matter protest in a city. So, a little city. Barely a city. A little area that we actually drove out to a couple weeks ago. And it was a very peaceful protest. It was led by African American community members. 0 2962 Attending Lehigh University as a graduate student during the pandemic MM: So, Lehigh has said they are doing mainly online classes. They’re sending out a more detailed plan on August 3 of exactly how they’re doing things. I know two of my classes are online. 0 3095 Cooking while friends' parents are away/Emotional support cat, Magic LB: So, if you’re all by yourself there, how many more days do you have to be all by yourself there?
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 ; MM: The rest of this week. My friend’s parents will be coming back at the end of the week. So, I’m just here by myself until then.
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 ; LB: So, what’s for dinner?
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 ; MM: Tacos. 
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 ; LB: If you run out of food, what are you going to do? 
 ; 0 3220 Thoughts for the future/Conclusion MM: Oh, geez. I think the most important kind of emotions to put forth in the future -- like I’ve been saying, this is going to happen again. This is going to happen again. Maybe someone’s going to look at this when it is happening again with a different virus, or a different disease, or type of global emergency. I think the best thing, the most important thing to understand, is the need for the human compassion. 0 MovingImage Miles Molerio talks about how the current COVID-19 pandemic is affecting him. He talks about leaving college early, having to stay with a friend’s family for 5 months, how the virus is affecting him and other members of the Transgender community, and what is bothering him the most. Miles Molerio 2020-07-27 LIZ BRADBURY: Let me turn this on. Okay. And I pinned you? Yeah. That's good. I'm going to turn this (inaudible). Okay. I'm good. So, here's the stuff. I'm sorry that's a waste of that time. So, with this project, Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and Trexler Library at the Muhlenberg College will collect forty years of public health experience in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community, collecting and curating local GBT health experiences from HIV AIDS to COIVD-19. My name is Liz Bradbury, and I'm here with Miles Molerio -- is that right? MILES MOLERIO: There you go. LB: To talk to him about his experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of the COVID-19 pandemic, as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT community archive. We're meeting on Zoom on July 27 -- Monday, July 27. And thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start, can you please state your full name and spell it for me? MM: Okay. My name is Miles Elliot Molerio, so M-I-L-E-S, E-L-L-I-O-T, M-O-L-E-R-I-O. LB: And please share your birthdate. MM: My birthdate is April 15, 1998. LB: And what town are you in? You said you were in Massachusetts right now? MM: I'm currently in Hampton, Massachusetts. LB: Oh, in Hampton, where Smith is, right? Oh, no. That's Northampton. That's different. Okay, this is the consent portion. Do you consent to this interview today? MM: Yes. LB: Oops. That's the wrong page. Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable formats? MM: Yes. LB: Do you consent to the LGBT archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats, including films, archives, articles, websites, presentations, and other things we may not even know about today? MM: Yes. LB: Do you understand that you'll have thirty days after your electronic -- after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview and identify parts you would like to delete and, or withdraw from your interview from the project? MM: Yes. LB: So, let me see. All right. So, this is some identity stuff. What is your zip code of the place where you live? Because you live in Bethlehem, right? MM: Yes. Oh, God. It just changed: 18018. LB: That's close enough. What's your age? MM: I am twenty-two. LB:nOh, okay. How do you identify within the LGBT community, i.e., trans, gay, lesbian, bi, trans, pan, (inaudible), that kind of stuff? MM: I identify as trans and queer. LB: You don't have to talk about these if you don't want to, but here are some general things for us to consider. Let's talk about this now. So, right now, during COVID pandemic, you are in some -- you are someplace. And are you with somebody? Who's in the house with you? MM: So, I've been quarantining with my friend, Sarah, and her family, after my college forced us all to leave. LB: I see. Oh, so you've been there a long time then? MM: I've been here since March. LB: Holy moly. How terrific that these people let you do this. You're indebted to them for the rest of your life. MM: Oh, it even goes further. (laughs) LB: They'll be talking about this for the rest of your life, that they had to put up with this. Well, how great that they're doing that. Isn't that wonderful? So, you just graduated from Moravian at the end of this -- the year, so to speak, and you're all done there? MM: Yes. I am officially done with them. LB: And now, you're getting ready to go to graduate school. But have you been working or -- MM: Kind of. Well, I was still in school, technically, online, for Moravian. I've been doing some promotional work for them as the mascot, making videos and whatever the media department needed because I -- LB: So, tell me what the mascot is. MM: (laughs) Our mascot is Amos the Greyhound. So, I have a big Greyhound costume in the house. LB: So, you brought it with you? MM: I was asked to bring it with me. LB: Oh, how funny. MM: So, I've been doing that. Because before the college shut down, we made a COVID about what not to do, what to do, how to wash your hands, all that kind of stuff. So, I had it with me, and they're like, "Take it home. Make some videos. We'll pay you." LB: Oh, good. And did you have to do schoolwork from -- your college work from where you were? MM: Yeah, I had to do everything from here on the computer. LB: Did that work out okay for you? Or what do you think? MM: Not really. I have some issues with light sensitivity, so being on the computer for hours and hours -- migraines, headaches. I had a couple accommodations with the college, but it wasn't really working, since everything was online. So, I just kind of suffered, and pulled through it, and got my grades, and left. LB: Really? So, you finished though, so that's good. That's really good. Because I just want to say, for prosperity, because I hope that somebody in the future, people will see this, that you were an intern at the Bradbury-Sullivan Center, and you worked in the department that I am in charge of. So, I've known you for a long time, relatively. And that was a long time ago, actually. But I haven't really seen you to talk to since then. So, I'm so happy that I get to talk to you now. MM: Yeah, it's awesome. LB: So, you were just talking about being away from people, and I really would like you to talk about that. I think it's a significant thing to say that you're away from folks now and you've been communicating with your family, which I guess is on -- I just want everybody to know that Miles has the greatest demonstrative face in the United States. So, you can always know what Miles is thinking by looking at it, and it's brilliant, I think. I think you could see it through the Greyhound costume. But I really would love you to talk about what it's like communicating with others on the phone, or online, or on video. You're probably talking to friends that you graduated -- talk about that a little bit. MM: Yeah, so, especially being a graduating student -- and I work a lot for my college. There's a lot of things that didn't get to happen. I was an RA as well, a resident advisor, so I had a lot of students I oversaw. They were really sad that we weren't together anymore. So, we get together just about every week and do a little face call and speak to each other, just check in how everyone's doing. Just a lot of FaceTiming and calling people. Lots of friends. A lot of my family, like my aunts and uncles, who I still talk to. They check in a lot to see how I'm doing. A lot of letter writing. It's back into style. LB: Wow. MM: Postcards, and letter writing, and all that kind of stuff, just to have some kind of form of contact. It's been really good, for the most part. There's been a couple of the times where -- I don't know if you've heard of it, but we've experienced the Zoom bombing. LB: Yeah, sure. MM: We've had couple times where -- LB:So, groups? Talk about that. MM:It was a large group when school was still in session. A lot of my residents are music majors, so they had an online composers concert, where they were able to play music files of what the kids were composing to at least get them some kind of concert. I was there watching, supporting my friends and my former residents, and some guy hacked into the Zoom call and started saying the N word and writing the N word all over the place on the screen. We had to schedule it, and redo it, and put passwords, and all sorts of stuff. It was really horrific. I actually didn't go to my Zoom classes for the rest of the week because I didn't want that to happen again. I was kind of scared. It was awful. LB: And I'm about to do a big training next week that -- for The Children's Home of Easton, which is a -- and it's not that big. It's about forty people all together. It's two trainings, actually. But do you think if there had been a waiting room for that, that would've kept that from happening? Was the Zoom link published somewhere? Thirty years from now, people are going to go, "Why didn't they just use the franistan [sic] and keep this from happening?" Because we're just not used to that now, and this kind of stuff is happening. Or the iris recognition or something that you would do. MM: I can't really blame the faculty member who tried to put the concert together. He was just trying to get something for his students. He's a ninety-year-old professor, who somehow was able to learn Zoom. LB: Don't be ageist. MM: (laughs) His name is Dr. Lipkis. Very nice guy. Just not very tech savvy. LB: Okay, you can say that. MM: But he was just trying to put together something for the students. And we all had to rush to learn Zoom and this kind of stuff. I wouldn't blame any one of them. LB: So, this was just at the beginning then? MM: Yeah, this was just in the beginning, around end of March, beginning of April. LB: So, as people are much more careful, and I have actually set up a waiting room for this, and they have to check through every person so that -- and then also that they'll be identified, so that if somebody does something naughty, it will show who it is. And these are employees. But yeah, who would know that that kind of horrible thing would happen? Terrible thing. I'm sorry that that happened to you. It must've been very devastating for the ones who did this music. Did they do it again? MM: Yeah, we stopped it, and then we did a different day with a password-set Zoom link, and it was restricted. A lot more restricted. LB: I see. MM: So, we got it working eventually. LB: Creepy though. Do you have brothers and sisters? MM: I have a brother. I have an older brother. But yeah. LB: But you have aunts and uncles that you're having good -- I remember that, actually, that you had some -- a particularly cool aunt. Is that true? MM: My Aunt Debbie, yeah. LB: So, you've been having communication with her? And do you have Zoom with her, or do you just chat on text or over the phone? MM: We just talk over the phone. That's what we've been doing ever since she's kind of stepped in as my mom. So, we just call on the phone and check in, just see how everything's doing, how everyone's doing. LB: Do you want to say why that is, that you had to have somebody step in as your mom? You don't have to if you don't want to talk about it. MM: I'm fine with it. My mom was just -- didn't really understand the whole trans thing. We tried talking with therapists and counselors, so it was a mediated conversation. She didn't really care how I felt. She was more, "This is hurting me. You're making me feel bad." All this. Trying to blame me for it, and about her feelings. I just refused to talk to her, really, for the rest of my college career. She would try to reach out. I would answer with a one-word answer. And my aunt was kind of like -- she's the baby child of her -- of my mom, her sister, and her other sister. And she works in the health field, so she has a bit more of an understanding. Her boss is actually a surgeon, who does transgender-related surgeries, who is trans. LB: Wow. MM: So, she was -- had a lot easier connection of trying to understand, and learning. So, she's kind of the one who stepped in to help me. Just basic things that you would call your mom for, like I don't feel too well. What should I do? Or how do I do taxes? Those kind of conversations and things. And some place to go for Christmas and spend Christmas with family. LB: So, you go to her house? Or is that the deal? MM: Yeah, I've gone to her house every year for Christmas. LB: I see. And since the virus has happened, have you talked to family members about how they've been coping with that too? I mean, in some ways, since it's so much more the norm to talk to people on FaceTime, you're getting more FaceTime with some people. That happen? MM: Yeah. I have a lot of aunts, so definitely, I check in with them a lot, especially my aunts on my dad's side, who -- we didn't really have a good connection. So, we get to talk a lot more now. We do a lot of letter writing between each other, and FaceTiming, and calling. They're doing okay. A lot of them like it because a couple of them are very antisocial to begin with. So, they're like, "I love this. This is great. I can stay in my house all day, and I don't have to explain it to anyone." (laughs) My one aunt, Debbie, hates it, because she works in the health field. She works in a hospital, so it's a little bit scary for her because her hospital had the first COVID case for her region in New York. LB: Oh, she's in New York? Oh, golly. MM: Yeah, she's in Mahopac, New York. So, it's not the center of the city, but it's still New York. LB: Yeah, it's different. It's different there. So, what's your biggest concern during the pandemic? What do you think is a biggest concern for you, and then also for the LGBT community, and sort of in general, the whole queer community? MM: I think those two, for me, go in together. Because my biggest concern for myself was my mental health, and I think that also transcribes over to the whole community, as a whole. It's so, so rough. I'm very energetic -- as you know -- person. I'm a very personable person. I like to be around people, my friends, hang out. I don't get to anymore. FaceTiming and talking on the phone is one thing. But I miss just sitting and hanging out with my friends, and I don't know, playing video games or just talking. Just being around people that are different than the ones I'm living with. LB: And this is your interview, but I have to interject something here. I have to say that when I left college and I went to graduate school, and I did what you did -- I went right to graduate school -- I had really dear friends and -- that I really -- that are -- I'm still friends with and that I still communicate with. And one of them was a wonderful, wonderful person, who I spent every day with the entire time I was in college. We were really pals. And we're still friends, and we still talk. But when you leave college, your whole life changes. Because otherwise, you're with those people. You're living with them every day. So, leaving college, I mean, the fact that you have -- because I didn't see that person again for 10 years. I didn't see her. I mean, I talked to her and I wrote a lot of letters, but I didn't see her again for 10 years. So, at least when you have Zoom, you can -- you've already seen your people a whole bunch of times since college was over. And it is kind of wonderful. She ended up living in Indiana for a while, and then in New Orleans. Really, I can count on my hand the number of times that I've seen her since 1979. And it's sad because I could never talk to her. And she doesn't like Zoom, which sucks, because I would actually love to talk to her on Zoom. You're lucky that -- in a lot of ways, that in a way, people intentionally trying to stay hooked up in this visual way. They might not even be doing that if it weren't for COVID. So, good for you that you're keeping up with that. That's been a good thing. So, let me ask you about being able to see Dr. Rachel Levine on -- you know who she is. It's our wonderful secretary now, of course. Well, do you want to talk about seeing her and how that's made you feel, and in general, how you felt about her being the voice of Governor Wolf's offices? MM: I very much appreciate her. I love seeing the updates that she puts up. I follow all that on Facebook, so I get the updates on COVID in Pennsylvania, so I know what's going on when I go back soon. Especially in the day of social media, I think it's a little -- you know what's going on with her, and people are being so horrific toward her for just being trans. But she's doing a phenomenal job reporting the health data and keeping everyone updated. I think it's just ridiculous. Even if she wasn't a trans woman, I think that people would still find a way to pick on whoever it was because they're not happy about being told what to do. I think it's awful what people are saying about her. I know there was that incident at that fair, where they had her -- someone dressed like her in a dunk tank. She's putting her neck out there, doing all this research, and making sure we're all safe and healthy, so we can open everything again and go back to normal life. People are just being babies, and picking on her, and being awful. LB: And really, for the most part, it's really anti-minority, picking on her. Here's a person, who's a brilliant scientist and capable of giving us -- and they're not picking on the information. And truthfully, if they disagree with her policies, that's one thing. Everybody has the right to that. This is just how she looks. It's ridiculous. And it's all based in transphobia, and misogyny, and stuff like that. It's terrible. Let's see. I already said that. Oh, here's a good one. Are you spending any time on queer dating or hookup apps? (laughs) MM: Oh, God. I can't lie. Yeah. (laughter) LB: You don't have to lie. And you won't be the only one that said yes. MM: I think it's so funny because I've had these apps. I know people have the very queer-centric ones, like the really gay-centric and the queer-centric ones. I've tried those ; I don't like them. Not enough people. Maybe I should try them now. I don't know. But I have the standard Tinder and Bumble, and that's it. I hate Tinder, so I haven't touched it, and I think I got rid of it recently. And then Bumble -- I think it's nicer. There's a lot more people on all of them now. LB: I bet. So, is that giving you enough ability to hook up with other queer people? Or does that not matter as much to you, as long as they're queer friendly? Or what do you think? MM: It doesn't really matter to me, long as they're queer friendly. I don't really get to see people. I wouldn't do a date or whatever because of social distancing. No. I'm fine with just talking with people and communicating with people on the phone. I'm not trying to be going out there, doing a date or a hookup. No. That's totally out of the question. That's defying all of the science that we've all been seeing. Come on. No. LB: So, you're in Hampton, Massachusetts. And where is that, say, in relation to the state? Is it near Boston? Or is it right in the middle of the state? Is it near Northampton? MM: It's right in the middle of the state. It's very woodsy. A lot of back roads ; not a lot of main roads. I think the most city I've seen is a little area with a Wendy's and a McDonald's. That's about it. LB: So, are you going out, or are you pretty much staying in? Or what about the other people in the -- where you are, in the house? Are they pretty much staying in? Are people at risk? Or what do you think about that? MM: We have all pretty much stayed here ever since March. The only person who's really been out of the house has been my friend's mom and dad because her dad owns his own health business. He actually owns a company that sells the technology for telehealth. So, he's in charge of a lot of that. And he has to go to the office because everyone's relying on telehealth now for doctor visits and such. But he's done it in a way where he goes one day, someone else goes the next day, so there's only one person in the office. So, just kind of staging it out nicely. And my friend's mom's a school nurse. LB: Oh, golly. Oh. Oh, could there be a worse job? MM: Yeah, during all this. She's a school nurse for a Catholic school. And they haven't really been giving her much guidance or money for buying PPE and supplies for the start of the school year. So, she's having to do her own research, and has to go out and buy her own PPE and things. LB: Is it open? MM: Hmm? LB: The school's going to open? MM: The schools here are going to open. That's what she's been told. She doubts that it's going to actually open. She thinks they're going to close them beforehand. LB: I think that's true. Trish was going to her regular doctor that's the specialist because Trish has lupus. And she went to the doctor, and the doctor just said, "Don't worry about schools opening. They're not going to open." MM: No way. LB: Because if we have a spike, how can you already have a spike? You can't say, "Well, it's okay." MM: Yeah, I don't know. I leave the science up to Dr. Levine, and I listen to what she says. (laughs) LB: So, it's certainly affecting your life. So, have you been doing any new queer activities online? It sounds like you try to avoid being online too much but -- because of too much flashback. Have you said, "Oh, look at this site," or something, or, "Hey, the Bradbury-Sullivan Center has all these cool things"? MM: Not really. I share a lot of stuff. When I see that there's events going on for queer folks, I share it on my social media because I have a lot of friends and queer friends, and kind of share that with them. Especially being the former president of Moravian's LGBT club, I share a lot of that stuff with the new leadership, and they've been getting stuff together with the community, and sharing all that information with them, and having some type of -- they together monthly, just to check in on everyone and see how everyone's doing. But I haven't really been doing anything new. Just kind of sticking to my usual kind of stuff. LB: Do you go out for walks and stuff there or -- MM: Not really. A lot of the neighbors around here have a lot of dogs, and they don't keep them leashed. LB: Oh. MM: Also, there's a bear running around here. So, I don't really go outside much, because that bear keeps showing up in the backyard. Very, very woodsy. There' LB: (inaudible) MM: We live up a hill, and one of the neighbors has a Jeep, and he drives eighty miles per hour up the hill. So, I'm not about to get hit by a car. LB: Golly. So, do you go to the store? So, the mom goes to the store and just brings food in, and you're just there like, "Thank you very much?" MM: Yeah. LB: Have you gone to McDonald's? MM: She goes to the grocery store. Huh? LB: Have you gone to McDonald's, since they happen to have one in the town? MM: No. I have not gone to really anything, except for when I had to -- so, they're actually gone on vacation right now. To be honest, I'm not too happy about that. They're adults. I can't stop them. LB: Where did they go? MM: They went to North Carolina. They have a beachfront down there. So, they're doing their best to socially distance as much as possible. It's their home. So, they brought their own groceries, their own cleaning supplies, everything, just to not have to go out. The more southern you go, the more spikes there are. LB: I know. MM: So, I'm a little worried. I hope they don't come back and get me sick. Hopefully, they don't get sick. LB: Did your friend, Sarah, go too? MM: Hmm? LB: Did your friend, Sarah, go too? MM: No. She actually moved out recently. She wanted to move back to Bethlehem. They're back already. She has her own apartment and is settled there, which is -- LB: You're there with her parents? MM: Hmm? LB: Are you by yourself there? MM: I have the house by myself right now. LB: You've got the cat and the bear. MM: I've got the cats and the bear in the backyard. LB: Do you have a car? MM: No. LB: Oh, shit. (laughs) So, this is like a slasher movie. MM: Yeah. The doors are locked every night. There's a hammer under my pillow. (laughs) LB: Oh my gosh. MM: It's okay. The neighbors know I'm here. They know the neighbors ; the neighbors know I'm here. So, it is what it is. LB: Is it hot? It looks like there's an air conditioner in your window. MM: Yeah, we got a couple air conditioners. It's hot. It's not as hot as Bethlehem, but it's still hot up here. LB: So, are you bored? What are you doing? I mean, are you reading books and stuff or watching TV? MM: Yeah, I bought some books recently. My boss for my job at Lehigh, my graduate assistantship, sent me some books for student leadership, student affairs kind of stuff. I've been catching up on some hobbies. The only kind of thing I actually went out to do is I went to a barn sale. LB: Oh, yeah. Cool. MM: I went to a barn sale, and I bought an antique saxophone. LB: You did? MM: So, I've been restoring that as my way to pass the time. LB: Is it a marching saxophone? MM: Yeah, it's a vintage saxophone, French saxophone, from the 1950s. LB: Well, as long as it's not bent and you can put the new corks on, it should be okay. Had you played saxophone before? MM: Nope. LB: Oh. Did you play any other reed instrument before? MM: Nope. LB: I tried to learn to play the clarinet, and I have a saxophone, which I never was very good at. I told [Cindy Rodriguez?] I would give it to her because she wants to learn how to play it. And I said, "It's very hard to learn reed instruments later in life." You're pretty young. You should be able to do it. Don't wait until you're 40 or 50 because it's really hard to. MM: That's what's keeping me busy, giving me something to do. LB: So, are you watching YouTube videos and then going, "Okay, I'll try that?" Or did you have music and -- MM: Yeah, watching YouTube stuff. Trying it. A lot of my friends, like my friend who was living here before she moved out, they're all music majors. LB: Oh, I see. MM: So, I call them. I'm like, "Okay, you know saxophone. You don't have anywhere to student teach right now. We can share." LB: I was going to tell you the place where everybody gets their tool -- their saxophones and stuff. It's a place in Nazareth, Pennsylvania that's -- MM: Nazareth Music Shop. LB: You've heard of it? MM: Yep. I've been there. I called them. As soon as I get back to Pennsylvania, I'm taking the saxophone over there. LB: Yes. Yeah, yeah. They're really good. MM: Oh, fantastic. LB: They really are pros. And what they'll probably tell you is that you should get a different mouthpiece because if you have a better mouthpiece, it's easier to play it. It's really true. You think what? But it's definitely true. Well, good for you that you could be doing that. So, let me ask you this. Do you have a Bethlehem Library card? Or a library card any place in Pennsylvania? MM: I don't. LB: Well, too bad, because I just found out that you can access all of Philadelphia's library if you have any card from the State of Pennsylvania. And there's a lot of audiobooks. So, it's really fun to have. So, next time you're in there, get a card, because it's really fun. And plus, sometimes you can get books that you need to read. I had to read a book for a book club, and it turned out that they had the audio book. And so, I didn't have to read it. It was a good book. It was a book that our group at the community center was doing. And I'm way too lazy to read the whole book. I had other stuff I had to do. So, I'm like, if you're going to work in the garden and you can listen to the book at the same time, it's great. But I couldn't not do the garden stuff, so that was terrific. So, let's see. I asked you that. What's the biggest frustration you have, or the biggest fear you have? Maybe that's two different things or the same thing. MM: Those are very two different things for me. I think my most frustration is when I see people not abiding by any social distancing things. I had to go to the grocery store before my friend's parents left, and we're in the grocery store, and they have they have the signs "you must wear a mask." And there's people wearing masks, and I think the most frustrating thing is when people have the masks on -- LB: Great mask. (inaudible) MM: -- but do this. With the nose. It totally defeats the purpose. I don't understand. You see the picture on the box when you buy the masks. It's over the nose. I think that's the most frustrating thing because you're just so close to doing the right thing, but you're not there. And you're still getting people sick, or possibly getting someone sick. Just do that. LB: No kidding. MM: It's (inaudible) frustrating. LB: And so, that's a frustration. What about a fear? What's your biggest fear? MM: I think my biggest fear is that the people -- people want to go back to this normalcy. Normal wasn't working. That's the biggest fear. Normal wasn't working. Normal didn't have us prepared for a pandemic. This is not the last pandemic, with the way the Earth is burning and everything going. And this is definitely not the last time we're going to see something like this. And the normalcy everyone wants to go back to has ended up with hundreds of thousands of people dead. I think people wanting to go back to normal is very fearful because normal wasn't working and we need to do better for -- if something happens like this again, so hundreds of thousands of people don't die because of a virus that we have all this science for. But we can't get something under control, or we don't have enough compassion to just stay in our house for a couple months, or if you're going to go out, do it six feet apart with a cloth over your face. It's not a political thing. It's just being compassionate about other people's well being. I think that's the most scary part of all this: people don't care. LB: Yes. I've interviewed more than twenty people, twenty-two people. You're the twenty-second person. Every person has said that. I mean, everyone (inaudible) said the most frustrating thing is people just not taking care of people. And I think it's part of our queer community that -- I guess there are some people that don't feel this way, but for the most part, our queer community really doesn't want to make anybody else sick, for heaven's sakes, and wants people to just figure it out and do the right thing. So, yeah. Well, this is sort of a similar question. But what's giving you hope and strength right now? MM: Hope and strength right now is every time I look up Moderna and they're phase three of the vaccine. I keep very on top of the vaccine info. I don't just watch the news, see what they say. I go look it up and see what the actual companies are saying and what the reports are looking like. That's the only thing really giving me a lot of hope, is that they're going into phase three of the trial. And after phase three, so close to get (inaudible) out to the public. LB: You think people will okay? Now, when Trish went to the doctor, the doctor said, "If seventy percent of the public have the vaccine, that's the end of it." Because everybody, like us, who doesn't want to get it, will be protected, relatively well protected. And the people who are anti-vaxxers will either get it, but they won't be able to give it to anybody because we have the vaccine. But 70 percent will wipe out the thing. Do you know who are against vaccines or they don't think that -- do you know anybody that's like, "I don't think we should need to wear a mask," that you have a personal relationship with? MM: I do. I don't know why we're friends, but we are. She has been good to me, respectful of me. And we're opposite on the political spectrum. She's my age. Actually, she's younger. I know. It's strange. We've always been kind to one another. Great friend of mine. And always respectful towards one another. But she, on Facebook -- oh my God. Actually, we all got into a big fight with her on social media the other day because she was going on about her rights and how she doesn't need to wear a mask. But we're all friends with this kid on our campus, who has cancer. So, his immune system is shot, completely shot. And we were all like, "Are you kidding me? You know this. We all know this kid, who is a great musician. He has cancer. If you get him sick, you could kill him. You know him. You've worked with him. You know he's frickin' bald, chemoed [sic] out, completely fighting this, and still a fantastic pianist. And you guys work together in orchestras and ensembles, but you don't want to wear a mask when you go back to campus. But you could kill him." And we all kind of got on her case about it. I've never really seen her be anti-vaxxer, but very anti-mask, very, "It's my right." When people say, "My body, my choice," for the mask thing, it's so stupid. (laughs) LB: Not good. MM: It's so dumb. It breaks my heart more than angers me. She can be such a nice, smart person, but she chooses to think like that. LB: Why do you think people are like that? MM: I think it's based off of where you're raised. You grow up in a household that is particularly Republican or very right-winged, you learn from your parents. I could say the same thing. My parents were hateful. My parents said the N word. LB: You're not like that. MM: No, I had to unlearn that kind of stuff. You learn it as you're young, and then if you have -- you go into an environment where it's mixed of people, like college, you kind of learn, oh, I need to rethink biases and thing -- learn biases and learn habits that are not the entirety of the world. It's just my parents or this group of people, this small group of people. I think it's just a learned habit. I think hate's learned. LB: Well, I agree with you about that. I know somebody who was saying that -- he talks a lot about it. He's an older guy. Well, he's my age. And he was a music teacher for a long time, since we were talking about music. And he said that he's concerned about people who have to go to colleges where they cost so much money. It's such a huge amount of investment. He was saying that you could get a degree to teach music, or you could get the skills to teach music by just being at home and doing a year and a half program or something, and you could teach music. And I said to him, "I think that one of the things that saves us is going to college and changing your mind about stuff because you're away from a family, who may not have very open views." So, in effect, what you're saying is that kind of thing. And while it isn't really influencing the person that you were talking about, the other people are sort of getting it now, I think. You certainly have seen that about your life and -- over the time. Over time. If everything you'd done had been online school, that's tough, I think. MM: Yeah. The online schooling is just -- I don't -- it's not -- I think it depends on where you are doing your classes. My last semester, I took -- I was working on an Africana studies minor because that's a field I'm not very knowledgeable on. And if I want to work in student affairs, I need to know. So, I was taking a course on communism, and it was fantastic. And discussions in that class? Mind blowing. We were talking with the professor. This should be something that everyone is forced to take. The different conversations on immigration, and racial rights, and gender, and sexuality, and all this stuff. I think it's just something that students need to have, especially in this day and age with -- there's so much going on on the TV. All the turmoil. And there's no place for middle ground anymore. Either you're on one side, or the other. You can't be in the middle anymore because being in the middle is just as bad as being racist. LB: What's the middle? MM: Omnipotence and just oblivious, like I don't see color kind of people. LB: Such a crock that is. I don't see color. Don't see color because there isn't any there. I always talk about this meme that was a bunch of kids from the 1950s or something, and they were all saying the Pledge of Allegiance. And underneath it says, "Remember these days?" And my response was, "You mean when every kid was white?" And then this person who had put it up says, "I don't see color." I said, "Well, you don't see any color in this picture. They're all white. How could you not see that?" I didn't notice that everybody in this picture was white. Well, that's because you're white, for heaven sakes. And you think that that's the way it's supposed to be. MM: (laughs) That's good. That's a good one. LB: I don't see color. I have friends, who will say that, who are really okay people. And you just have to grab them by the lapels and say, "That's a racist thing to say. Cut it out. Don't say that. Don't say that." Sometimes, you have to yell at them. It would be hard, I think, for your friend that you -- all of you are sort of getting on her and saying, "You're talking about killing our friend. How can we just overlook that?" I think that's a pretty effective way of making an argument. MM: We have tried. I think she's just so thick skulled. I don't understand how people just can't have compassion for another human being. We're all just trying to exist, and live out through this pandemic, and get through the other side. We can't get through the other side with only fifty percent of people doing the work. Everyone has to do their part. And for the people who have shot immune systems, who are in that higher demographic of more likely to get this disease -- he actually caught COVID. The kid actually did. He's fine ; he got over it. But he did get it for the fourteen days. LB: Oh, I was going to ask you if you'd known anybody that had had it. So, this was a person. Have you known anybody else that's had it, or been close to people that had it or died, or know people who have died, or something like that? MM: The only person I did know was the student I was talking about. My friend's parents, on the other hand, that I'm staying with, a lot of their friends got it and died. People (inaudible) school with. There was a lot of stuff in the newspaper, I remember. Because I sit and talk to my friend's mom a lot. She's really cool. LB: You meant the (inaudible)? MM: My friend's mom, yeah. The mom here in this house. LB: The one (inaudible). MM: A lot of parents around. But there was a couple friends that they went to high school with, who passed away, and were about their age, in their fifties. LB: I mean, you want to listen to that and you want to say things like , "Well, were they sick?" Well, that's not really the point. It doesn't matter whether they were sick. It doesn't matter how old they were. People get sick. You don't know (inaudible). MM: (inaudible) LB: And some people, who are perfectly well, get sick. To other people, it's terrible. It's a terrible situation. So, we've asked about that. And let's see. So, let me ask you about Black Lives Matter. I want to have everybody give an opportunity to talk about that or anything about -- if you want to talk about politics, that's okay. I mean, you cannot separate that from what we're doing right now. But talk about Black Lives Matter, if you want to. MM: Absolutely. LB: Are you aware of that, where you are? I would guess that everybody's white there. MM: Oh, yeah. LB: I'm from New England. I know what it's like. MM: It is as white as eggs on toast up here. But surprisingly enough, for this little area, where there are quite a bit of Trump posters and things, there was a Black Lives Matter protest in a city. So, a little city. Barely a city. A little area that we actually drove out to a couple weeks ago. And it was a very peaceful protest. It was led by African American community members. So, they had the stage. They had the voice. It was very respectful. People were social distancing away from each other. Everyone had masks. They had masks and hand sanitizer there, and gloves, if the people wanted it. There was a lot of speakers from the community, all African American in some way, shape, or form. Young, old. Everybody you could imagine had a voice at that. Parents and grandparents. Anyone who wanted to from the community could speak. There was a big road by a roundabout, so we lined up throughout the roundabout with our posters, and signs, and stuff, and were just getting attention to folks, and just getting -- doing what you got to do. It was very small, in comparison to the protests going on in the world. But I think it was still meaningful for that tiny area with a small population of African Americans. LB: Well, it's great to see people coming together, who are maybe concerned about a part of the population, but not part of the population. It's kind of like the mask thing. MM: Absolutely. LB: The thing about it is selfishness has never been an attractive quality for anybody. So, why would somebody adopt that as their primary qual-- I'm really selfish, but I can't understand why I can't get a date. That kind of thing. So, that's great. So, what are you imagining? If you don't go back, are you going to stay there? If they say, "Okay, we've decided that we're not going to let students back to Lehigh?" Or have they said anything about what it's going to be? MM: So, Lehigh has said they are doing mainly online classes. They're sending out a more detailed plan on August 3 of exactly how they're doing things. I know two of my classes are online. I do have to go back to campus because I will be working in student affairs, and staff and faculty will be back on campus. I'm actually going to be managing a building. LB: Wow. MM: So, I have to go back, as well as part of the GA. Hmm? LB: So, what's that going to be? You'll be managing a building that -- as an R-- a residence hall? Or you're going to manage a building that's a different kind of building? MM: I'm going to be managing a student life building. They're Lamberton Hall. It's where they have a dining facility and they do some of their events. I think they do their drag show there. LB: Oh, yeah. Okay. I've been there, yeah. MM: So, I'll be managing that building. Layout's going to be changing because they're making some spaces for classrooms, and just a bunch of layout changes that I'm going to have to be in charge of. I'll be in charge of COVID-related things in the building, as well, like cleanups, and social distancing, and all that kind of great stuff. LB: So, they're anticipating people to come back, but not necessarily go to classes regularly? MM: Yeah. As little classes as possible in person. The ones that have to meet in person, like health-related fields and the engineering stuff, a lot of the hands-on kind of programs and classes. But if it can be done online, it's going online. LB: So, if you're all by yourself there, how many more days do you have to be all by yourself there? MM: The rest of this week. My friend's parents will be coming back at the end of the week. So, I'm just here by myself until then. LB: So, what's for dinner? MM: Tacos. LB: If you run out of food, what are you going to do? MM: I got to the grocery store before they left. So, I got a week's worth of groceries, and just have some chicken that I'm going to cook up. And I got some corn I'm going to make into elote. I like to cook, so it keeps me busy. LB: That's good. That's great. And where's your cat? MM: My cat? Oh, that's a really good question. LB: I wanted to see the cat. So, tell me about your cat. Is this a cat that you got at school? MM: Yes. His name is Magic. He's a black cat. When did I get him? 2018. He is my registered emotional support animal. LB: That's so great. Is he good at it? MM: Hmm? LB: Is he good at it? MM: Yes. He is fantastic at his job. LB: Good. MM: He's very good at his job. He's really good at letting me know when I particularly am getting sick. LB: Oh, that's good. MM: He's caught both of my UTIs before they got worse before. He sits on my hips, and he kneads my hip area very aggressively. So, then I just go to the doctor, and they're like, "Oh, yeah, you're this close to getting a kidney infection." LB: Oh my goodness. Well, cats are smart. MM: Cats are very smart. He's very smart. LB: It's good that you've adopted a black cat because they're at risk. MM: That's why I got him. There were so many at the shelter. So, I got him. He's my little buddy. So, we're in this together. LB: Well, good for you. Well, I think we're coming to the end. So, here's the thing. When we look at this presentation, we imagine that someday in the future -- and it could be a long time in the future -- it could be twenty, thirty, forty years -- and somebody's going to look at this and see you talking about this. And you said a lot of interesting things. But what's something you'd want to communicate to somebody in the future about how you feel now, and what you're hoping to see happen, and that kind of stuff? I mean, they know the future. You're talking to somebody who can see into the future. MM: Oh, geez. I think the most important kind of emotions to put forth in the future -- like I've been saying, this is going to happen again. This is going to happen again. Maybe someone's going to look at this when it is happening again with a different virus, or a different disease, or type of global emergency. I think the best thing, the most important thing to understand, is the need for the human compassion. And no matter what communities you belong to, racial, sexual orientation, gender identity, disability, age, whatever, I think it's just most important to think about the community aspect and the care. We need to care about everybody. We're not caring everybody right now, and look how well we're doing. We're doing an interview online, in a computer, states away. People are dying. People are in hospitals. We're really not doing a good job at maintaining this virus, no matter what that idiot in charge says. LB: We're talking about the Federal Government here. MM: Hmm? LB: We're talking about the Federal Government here. MM: Oh, yeah. No, Governor Wolf, I like him. LB: (inaudible) that state? Yeah, it's Governor Wolf. Well, I have really loved talking to you, Miles. I'm so glad that I got to talk to you today. And I don't know how I feel about you being there all by yourself in the middle of no place with a bear. MM: I'm okay with it. The parents have been here almost every day in the house. So, I'm good. I have a little peace to myself. I can relax, watch the TV, sit down, do some cooking, do some reading. It's quiet. LB: Is it a big house? MM: Hmm? LB: Is it big? Is it a big house? MM: It's a big house. It's bigger than my dorm. So, anything's bigger. LB: Well, I mean when you're there with other people, you don't feel like you're on top of each other? Or is it that kind of place? MM: When they're here, yeah, I feel a little bit on top of each other because the kitchen's really narrow. LB: Well, I'm so glad that I got to talk to you today. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for doing this. MM: Of course. LB: And we will send you the transcript. They send it to a transcript -- the college program, where people learn how to do these transcripts, and then they send it back with it all written out. And you can look at it and see, and say, "I didn't mean to say this." And if you want to take those things out, you can. But I really think everything you said was brilliant. So, I hope you don't -- MM: Thank you. LB: -- feel the need to do that. And it's been terrific to talk to you. So, it's just been great. And I hope I get to see you more, Miles. I miss seeing you. And so, I hope when we all -- when things get back to normal, we'll get to see each other more. MM: Absolutely. I hope so too. Hopefully, this virus will end soon. I'm over it. LB: Okay, well, I agree. But we have to be careful, so we can stand it, right? MM: Mmhmm. Really. LB: Well, thank you very much. I'm going to turn your recording off. END OF VIDEO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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00:57:35
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Title
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Miles Molerio, July 27, 2020
Description
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Miles Molerio talks about how the current COVID-19 pandemic is affecting him. He talks about leaving college early, having to stay with a friend’s family for 5 months, how the virus is affecting him and other members of the Transgender community, and what is bothering him the most.
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PH40_19
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
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2020-07-27
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
An account of the resource
In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
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Liz Bradbury
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Anita Niles-Lee
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_18.xml
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5.4 July 13, 2020 Anita Niles-Lee, July 13, 2020 PH40_18 01:05:51 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Anita Niles-Lee Liz Bradbury video/mpeg Niles-LeeAnita_20200713_video.mp4 1.0:|27(9)|50(8)|75(5)|112(14)|141(7)|170(6)|193(12)|216(8)|235(13)|258(17)|279(4)|298(3)|319(10)|338(2)|363(2)|382(9)|417(9)|438(8)|461(5)|484(7)|511(10)|532(15)|555(14)|576(9)|597(8)|624(4)|651(7)|678(4)|709(8)|736(13)|767(16)|800(3)|827(16)|846(5)|873(11)|898(16)|915(10)|938(5)|963(4)|986(4)|1003(10)|1026(2)|1053(7)|1076(13)|1099(10)|1118(14)|1141(2)|1160(15)|1189(14)|1208(10)|1235(7)|1258(4)|1287(9)|1312(6)|1335(6)|1356(15)|1379(12)|1400(7)|1423(7)|1446(6)|1473(13)|1496(12)|1519(7)|1544(2)|1573(3)|1584(5) 0 https://youtu.be/_yhV44hachA YouTube video 0 Interview Introduction LB: Wonderful. I am going to read you this stuff because we’re recording now. This says -- oh, I have to turn off my phone, I want to do that. And I want to pin -- what we call pinning the video. And so, I’m going to pin this. There. That means that when we talk it doesn’t keep jumping back to me. Just your picture, so your picture is really big. Terrific, you look terrific. Let’s see, I did that, I did that, and I did the audio and the video. With this project, Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh and the greater Lehigh Valley LGBT community, collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury and I’m here with Anita Niles-Lee. 0 378 Husband losing job due to pandemic ANL: My husband and I have been basically strict quarantine since the second week in March. He lost his job, so that kind of made it easy to totally quarantine. He was working in New Jersey and his job is affiliated with the airline industry, which we all know how that is doing, so he was laid off pretty early in the process. 
 ; 0 453 Husband losing family members to Covid-19 ANL: My husband has lost three family members actually. He lost three elderly members, one thought she had a cold. And it was within the second week, I think, that the virus broke out in New York. 0 512 Going out only for chores during the pandemic/Concerns about daughter's susceptibility to contracted Covid-19 ANL: We go out, we try to go out once a week very early in the morning just to chores. We never go out on weekends, weekends are -- we just lock down on the weekends. So, that’s pretty much been it. I’ve only seen my daughter once since -- my daughter who lives in Nazareth, we’ve only seen each other once since it started 0 695 Children's experiences with racism/Experiences during the pandemic ANL: I have Justin, who’s in LA doing very well. He actually went to one of the Black Lives Matter protests because he’s hard to keep down. And he’s active out there, but safe. They quarantine, they have a quarantine group, and those are the only people they’ve seen. He’s doing well. And as you know, my children are half-Chinese, so we have a lot of that going on too. 
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 ; LB: Has it been an issue?
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 ; ANL: My daughter in Florida was called the N-word by someone in a car who rolled his window down, yelled at her, and that happened. 0 892 Communicating with family/Daughter's work during the pandemic ANL: [...] My daughter in Florida every day. We FaceTime at least once or twice a day. She has three kids. The oldest is five, the youngest are twins, they’re two and a half. So, she’s kind of going crazy with that. And she actually taught my oldest granddaughter how to call me. 0 1042 Concerns during the pandemic/Communicating with son/Adapting to life during the pandemic ANL: Well, I have to be honest, with the pandemic and what’s happening with the transgender community and their rights being taken away and Black Lives Matter, it’s just -- and the Asian whatever he calls it, I can’t even remember, I’m overwhelmed. And some days I wonder if we’re ever going to get out of it. 0 1187 President Donald Trump's anti-Asian Covid rhetoric/Concerns of rhetoric effecting husband ANL: And as soon as we were going to drive down, he started with the Asian stuff. And I said to Dan, I’m not comfortable with you driving back through the South by yourself. So, I’m kind of grounded now until something gives. 
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 ; LB: When you said he started with the Asian stuff, you’re talking about the president of the United States. 
 ; 0 1368 Son's work as a writer LB: When you’re talking about the LGBT community, and I know Justin has been very significant in that community, he’s a writer, and has done some very significant work. What’s he working on now? 
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 ; ANL: Actually the Hulu new show, Love, Victor, he’s working on the second season for that show. 0 1411 Thoughts on Dr. Rachel Levine/President Trump's handling of the pandemic ANL: I adore her. (laughs) I’m always on Facebook as everybody pretty well knows, and some of the comments I get about that poor Dr. Levine are horrible, horrible. And I give her one-thousand percent credit for getting up there and doing what she does every day. She’s amazing, she’s amazing. She’s a hero, I have to say.
 ; 0 1536 Gardening during the pandemic ANL: We started, I call it my pandemic garden. Dan and I are die hard city people, so this is the first time we’ve ever really gardened. And I’m enjoying it. It’s actually brought us together. 0 1983 Stepping down from running PFLAG ANL: It had died down for a very, very long time. Sporadically I would get people asking for information and help over the internet, but the last year, after I think it was around December, I started hearing about a lot of young people getting upset with all that was going on with all the politics. So, someone had started the PFLAG chapter again, we had one meeting in February, and then the pandemic hit. I mean, I withdrew because I had differences with that person. 0 2142 Assisting young LGBT people ANL: Actually my -- my most recent call from help was a lady down in Florida. Someone I know in Florida gave her my number, and her daughter just started their hormone, their HRT, and she’s having a very hard time with going out and going shopping, and trying to be supportive but being stuck, and how they can get their medicine, and so I did a little research down that end of the town. But other than that it’s been quiet. 0 2371 Frustrations during the pandemic ANL: Every day I open my eyes and turn on the news. It’s almost like do I really even want to know. Daniel and I have it down to we’ll watch maybe morning news until nine o’clock and then it’s done. No more until maybe three o’clock and then it’s off for dinner time. Because you can’t. It was constant pounding and pounding. We avoid it. 0 2486 Reconnecting with people through FaceTime ANL: (laughs) I guess connecting with friends. People that, you know, we all work, but I guess I’m on the internet a lot, and I’ve -- people I went to grammar school with we’ve connected because everyone is home. I guess that was kind of fun. 
 ; 0 2650 Estrangement from family members/Son's divorce ANL: Yeah. We’re estranged. The boys just -- it was -- there is always drama but when Justin and Adrian came out and someone asked me when they were getting married, is this a real wedding, how can this be a real -- I was like, done. I pretty much just said we just can’t talk anymore. 0 2747 Concerns over contracting Covid-19 ANL: [...] I was a heavy smoker for many, many years. I have COPD. [00:46:00] And my daughter’s husband left five weeks ago, and had I not had this terrible history of lung problems, I would have been on a plane. And I told her, if I come down there I can’t get sick. So, we’re just waiting until airlines figure something out. Because my husband, I won’t let him drive. 0 2933 Struggles with mental health during the pandemic ANL: [...] The depression, the depression for me was awful. And the anxiety. Every time I had to leave my house I would palpitate, I would sweat, it was horrible. I try not to leave now. 0 3016 Black Lives Matter protests during the pandemic/Stress over others not wearing masks LB: I know that you’ve seen this circumstance that happened here in Lehigh Valley with the police. 
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 ; ANL: Yes, yeah. 
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 ; LB: And I actually had an interview with someone at five o’clock, but I knew that she would want to go. She’s a younger person and she’s a person of color, and I knew that she would want to be at this thing. So, I said let’s do your thing tomorrow. And Adrian said, people should go out and our employees can go to join this march. 0 3216 Concerns over school/daycare openings LB: And if you have a -- when we are talking about opening schools and stuff, how can -- I have a friend who’s a pediatrician and she had people ask her, moms ask her, is it okay for my kid to go to daycare and she said, “Well, let me ask you this. When your kid goes to daycare, do they ever get a cold from anybody else at daycare, or the flu, or any other thing?” They get everything at daycare. 
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 ; ANL: Turbo germs. I call them turbo germs. 
 ; 0 3322 Concerns over government's mismanagement of the pandemic effecting marginalized communities/Frustrations over pandemic deniers ANL: I have -- maybe it’s because I’m a person of color, I believe this is like his own private genocide. This is their way of getting rid of brown people, Black people, poor people, they don’t care. It’s like clear it out, we’ll buy up the real estate. It sounds very harsh and I know it’s like -- but that’s how I feel.
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 ; LB: I totally understand. I understand exactly what you mean. 0 3455 Thoughts for the future ANL: That we weren’t crazy. We weren’t speaking hyperbolically. We were truth tellers. And it’s hard, I think, for people like us to understand people so full of hate and so full of anger. And it’s beyond me. And I always thought America pulled together. America was always the country, I’m sorry, that pulled together. (crying) And we’re not. 0 MovingImage Anita discusses how the COVID-19 pandemic is affecting her and her family ; how her family has experienced racism and the rise of racism during the pandemic ; keeping in touch with her family ; the Black Lives Matter movement ; stepping down from PFLAG ; and gardening. Anita Niles-Lee 2020-07-13 LIZ BRADBURY: And you can actually see a little red dot actually and that means it's recording. Now if you look at your picture, you can see where your head is in the recording. So, you're not looking in the middle. ANITA NILES-LEE: So I skootch? LB: A little bit, but it will look like you have a halo. Which I think is kind of cute. (laughter) I'm going to start my audio recording too, so that's good. There you go. So, we're recording. Now you really look -- ANL: Oh, I look like a painting. (laughs) LB: Wonderful. I am going to read you this stuff because we're recording now. This says -- oh, I have to turn off my phone, I want to do that. And I want to pin -- what we call pinning the video. And so, I'm going to pin this. There. That means that when we talk it doesn't keep jumping back to me. Just your picture, so your picture is really big. Terrific, you look terrific. Let's see, I did that, I did that, and I did the audio and the video. With this project, Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh and the greater Lehigh Valley LGBT community, collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury and I'm here with Anita Niles-Lee. ANL: Niles-Lee, yes. LB: To talk about her experiences in the Lehigh Valley and also regarding the LGBT community during this time of the COVID pandemic, COVID-19 pandemic, as part of the LGBT Community Archive. Today is the 13th, Monday July 13, 2020, and thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start can you please state your full name and spell it for me. ANL: My name is Anita Niles-Lee. It's A-N, like Nancy, I-T-A, Niles, N-I-L-E-S, hyphen Lee, L-E-E. LB: And will you please share your birthdate. Now some people said they didn't want to give the year, I've been fine with it, doesn't matter either way. ANL: At this age I was born on May 12, 1959. (laughs) LB: You're a baby. Okay. What town are you in? ANL: I'm Reeders, Monroe County. LB: Reeders. ANL: Right, if you look on the map it's labeled Stroudsburg, but it's really Reeders. LB: You're in the Stroudsburg area. ANL: Yes. LB: Okay, great. This is the consent portion. Do you consent to this interview today? ANL: Yes, I do. LB: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publically available online in searchable formats? ANL: Yes, I do. LB: Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats including films, articles, and websites, presentations, and anything that we may not know of. ANL: Anything to help. LB: Great. So, yes is the answer to that. ANL: Absolutely yes. LB: And do you understand that you'll have thirty days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview and to identify parts that you'd like to delete or change, or withdraw your interview from the project because you just don't think it's good enough. If you want to do that you can. ANL: Yes, I understand. LB: Great. And so, I'm just going to ask you a couple of questions that are demographic questions. One of the things we ask people is, we ask people about their sexual orientation and gender identity, and I'd like for you to just kind of fill in because you are an important part of the LGBT community, how that works for you. ANL: I am heterosexual. Is that what you want me to say? LB: And cis gender I think you are? Right? ANL: I am cis gender, yes. LB: But I think also you're really an integral part of the -- or have been an integral part of the LGBT community along with your family members, so do you want to say something about that? ANL: Well, when my son came out in the late nineties, my family, we were taken by surprise, I guess you could say, so he had given us a book, I don't remember the name of the book, but at the end of the book they mentioned PFLAG. So, my husband and I found the Allentown chapter of PFLAG at that time with Don and Melinda Kohn. And when we went there we were absolutely blown away by the support and the love that PFLAG offered. And we realized in our area, which isn't far from Lehigh Valley, but in Stroudsburg that's like light years away, we needed something in the area. So, we started PFLAG Monroe County back in I think it was '98 or '99. LB: Yeah, that was great that you did that. Thank you for doing that. ANL: Long time. (laughs) LB: I need to ask you what your zip code is. ANL: 18360. LB: Okay. And it does say what is your age on here, which I think you kind of identified by giving your -- but anyway. ANL: Sixty-one. (laughs) LB: And I've asked you already about how you identify within the community, which you've said. Here are some things -- and then there's a bunch of different questions on here, I've already sent you these questions, but I just really going to start it out, you know, you can talk about anything you want with regard to the COVID pandemic and how it's affecting you, and you don't have to talk about all the questions that I asked, but let's start out with just asking are you home, are you working or are you at home, or what's going on for you? ANL: My husband and I have been basically strict quarantine since the second week in March. He lost his job, so that kind of made it easy to totally quarantine. He was working in New Jersey and his job is affiliated with the airline industry, which we all know how that is doing, so he was laid off pretty early in the process. LB: I see. Yeah. I lost one of my pages of questions. ANL: Oh, take your time. LB: You probably have them there. But let's talk about -- oh for heaven's sakes. I can't even search for it on my -- do you have the questions there, the other questions? ANL: You know what, I have them on my phone if I can just get up and get my phone. LB: I have them on the phone. Never mind, I can look them up. I'll look on my phone and we'll just pray that it doesn't ring. Talk a little bit about before as we're doing this, let's talk about if you know anybody who's had the illness or -- ANL: My husband has lost three family members actually. He lost three elderly members, one thought she had a cold. And it was within the second week, I think, that the virus broke out in New York. And they brought her into the emergency room and never saw her again. And another in New Jersey was high risk and he managed -- he caught it. And he just lost another relative in Brooklyn last week, all in their 80s, all really, really frail. But nonetheless. LB: Here we go. I'm good now. How has that affected -- I mean, both of you are at home and you're not going out. Are you not going at all or you're just going out really carefully? What's the circumstances? ANL: We go out, we try to go out once a week very early in the morning just to chores. We never go out on weekends, weekends are -- we just lock down on the weekends. So, that's pretty much been it. I've only seen my daughter once since -- my daughter who lives in Nazareth, we've only seen each other once since it started. She went back to work last week and I'm terrified because she has a congenital heart disease and her going back to work if she catches this it will kill her. It's been really hairy. LB: What does she do? ANL: She works at one of the restaurants in the Valley. A rather well-known restaurant but they're not following precautions, so it's really scary. It's really scary. LB: I had hoped to interview a couple people, people you probably know who have had it themselves, and they're actually so affected by it, I mean, they're better, but the effect it had on them is so serious that they can't talk about it. ANL: I can't -- yeah, I can't imagine. And his first family member, because of the way it was they couldn't even have a funeral. It was just -- it's that bad. And I'm just astounded by my daughter tells me people are in restaurants without their masks, and laughing, and joking, and making fun of the workers. They grabbed a lady's hand and went, "Ha, ha, 'rona, 'rona." Yeah, it's bad. And I find it frightening, I find it very frightening. LB: That's terrible. It's so upsetting. I mean, you can't -- and so, does she have any recourse in situations like that? I guess if it's in a restaurant it's hard to require people to cover their mouths. ANL: Well, I think what the employees are thinking of doing is just reporting that they're not following guidelines. They don't know, but they're hoping maybe it can get them fined, or shut down, or just bring attention to the matter because when someone did complain to an owner he said, well, if you leave we'll take it as your resignation. I think the only recourse they have is to report it and hope that someone comes in and does something so they'll take it seriously. Yeah. LB: Yeah. And you have other -- do you have just two kids? ANL: I have Justin, who's in LA doing very well. He actually went to one of the Black Lives Matter protests because he's hard to keep down. And he's active out there, but safe. They quarantine, they have a quarantine group, and those are the only people they've seen. He's doing well. And as you know, my children are half-Chinese, so we have a lot of that going on too. LB: Has it been an issue? ANL: My daughter in Florida was called the N-word by someone in a car who rolled his window down, yelled at her, and that happened. My other daughter was coming out of a Target and got the ching-chong, you know, go back to China. Other lovely stuff is going on in the world these days. LB: Has that caused them to also not want to go out? Have they had job discrimination? ANL: My daughter in Florida has been in quarantine -- you're going to think I'm telling you a soap opera. Her and her husband separated during the pandemic. So, she's quarantined with the three babies, and Nana can't get down there. So, there's that. And my daughter in Nazareth her boyfriend won't let her go out by herself at night anymore. He just -- it's safer for her to stay at home. And Justin seems to be doing well. He's working, it hasn't really affected his work. He's just more upset with all the garbage that's going around right now. LB: So, it's just you and Daniel in your home? ANL: Yes, just us chickens. (laughs) LB: Now at least you're not alone. Can you imagine what that would be like to be since March? I mean, Trish and I have been together here completely sequestered since March, we've hardly been out at all. It's so tough. And to think about the -- ANL: That's why I guess Justin was really smart because before, like right at the beginning, he and three other friends decided that they would all quarantine. And once every Friday night they would go to each -- just so they weren't alone all this time. And when they started protesting, that person was left out of the group, quarantined for two weeks, got tested, and then they'd start again. They seem to have worked out a good system for themselves. LB: It's really entertaining and very positive to hear about smart people. ANL: (laughs) Really. LB: Are you talking to him, do you find that you're talking to your family more on the phone? Are you doing video communicating too? ANL: Yeah. My daughter in Florida every day. We FaceTime at least once or twice a day. She has three kids. The oldest is five, the youngest are twins, they're two and a half. So, she's kind of going crazy with that. And she actually taught my oldest granddaughter how to call me. My daughter works until three in the morning, so at seven o'clock the babies will call me, and I pretty much FaceTime babysit for a while in the morning just so she can rest. It's wild. It's so wild. LB: She's working a regular job? ANL: She's an ASL interpreter. She hasn't worked since the pandemic because she worked mostly in hospitals and she's afraid to bring it home. So, she does Zoom work, and she works at night doing video relay for the deaf. That's how she's surviving until I get down there and she can get back into the community. LB: Is she in St. Augustine? ANL: No, she's in Odessa. It's right outside Tampa. LB: Yeah, I know it, yeah. ANL: Yeah, they have a huge deaf community down there. LB: I know. ANL: And she loves her work, she doesn't want to give that up. LB: Is she deaf? ANL: No. LB: She got into that in college? ANL: Honestly she watched The Miracle Worker when she was ten, and that's all she ever wanted to do. It was phenomenal. She never forgot. LB: The one with Patty Duke? ANL: Absolutely, the old black and white one. I like old films. LB: Anne Bancroft is so hot in that. ANL: Isn't she? (laughs) I have always loved Patty Duke. LB: (inaudible) about lesbians in it that every lesbian heard. I think that's amazing. ANL: Mrs. Robinson, come on. LB: True. But in that movie she actually makes a comment about women going after younger women. And when I first saw that when I was a kid I went -- Anne Bancroft is so hot. What's your biggest concern about all this stuff then? What's been happening? ANL: Well, I have to be honest, with the pandemic and what's happening with the transgender community and their rights being taken away and Black Lives Matter, it's just -- and the Asian whatever he calls it, I can't even remember, I'm overwhelmed. And some days I wonder if we're ever going to get out of it. They hate. And I guess because I'm affected from so many different aspects. I just feel like I'm underwater sometimes. LB: Going back a little bit to communications, have you been communicating with Justin and stuff so you can see him, or mostly just on the phone? ANL: We text every day. We have a group text. At least once a day everybody will send a silly picture or just a stupid, something to make everyone laugh, and so we know we're all okay. We've been doing it since the start. And once a week we try to call. We've had four Facebook birthday parties. (laughs) And even down in Florida the kids had a parade of cars. Instead of a birthday party all their friends drove by in -- we're adapting, I guess. LB: They're too young to go to school, so at least you don't have to worry about that too much, about having to go to school. ANL: My five year old starts kindergarten. Yeah, well, her mom registered her for virtual school. Hopefully it's not one of the programs that DeSantis decided to cut. You can't win. LB: We have to worry about the way that Pennsylvania is, but it's so crazy in Florida. We go to Florida all the time. I said we're not going to be able to go to Florida for years. ANL: Yeah. I mean, we want to drive down because of her situation because I'm planning to stay there until the little one starts kindergarten because daycare is out of the question. And as soon as we were going to drive down, he started with the Asian stuff. And I said to Dan, I'm not comfortable with you driving back through the South by yourself. So, I'm kind of grounded now until something gives. LB: When you said he started with the Asian stuff, you're talking about the president of the United States. ANL: Yes, yes. LB: This Archive is possibly going to be viewed by people thirty year from now, and when we talk about this kind of stuff, we may not -- I know exactly what you mean. ANL: Saying that name leaves a bad taste. LB: I just read a thing saying don't say his name, forty-five is fine. But I think that people may not understand, and I'm really glad I'm talking to you about this because as a mom dealing with this from so many different angles and it's very serious. People aren't going to understand this unless we do these kind of archives for that history. ANL: It's true. I mean, a neighbor, she's like why don't you just drive? I'm like because my husband is a 61 year old Asian man who will be driving back probably at night through the South and no thank you. I just can't even imagine it. And we don't think like that. LB: I know. Well, it's terrible. It's a terrible situation. We have Asian people in our family too and we were asking -- one of them has been sick and has recovered, she's a young person, and so she really has a high level of antibodies, she's really safe, she can't get it, and she can't give it to anybody else, but she's Chinese, and I'm worried about her to send her into a store because I don't want her to have to deal with that kind of stuff. People need to start thinking about this stuff. ANL: I guess I'm different. I kind of raised my kids to be different because I grew up in Chinatown, New York in the seventies and I was the different person where I grew up. And I was the one that was bullied, and I was the one that was out-casted. I used to tell them, you're not going to sit in the back of anyone's bus. And as time went on I realized it's like, Anita, you kind of have to put your money where your mouth is. And my kids always had it in the back of their heads that we're different, we have to be careful. And I kind of knock on wood these days that they were raised that way. LB: Yeah. Well, you did a good job. ANL: Thank you. LB: When you're talking about the LGBT community, and I know Justin has been very significant in that community, he's a writer, and has done some very significant work. What's he working on now? ANL: Actually the Hulu new show, Love, Victor, he's working on the second season for that show. He's doing that now actually. He has a few movies in the works, things being transferred from play to movie. He's doing very well, god bless him. Can't complain. (laughs) LB: Well, we're lucky. I know one of the good thing about our community and being in the state of Pennsylvania is that we're in a state with a governor that is smart, and we also have a really terrific Secretary of Health. Want to talk about that? Talk about that. ANL: I adore her. (laughs) I'm always on Facebook as everybody pretty well knows, and some of the comments I get about that poor Dr. Levine are horrible, horrible. And I give her one-thousand percent credit for getting up there and doing what she does every day. She's amazing, she's amazing. She's a hero, I have to say. LB: She is. And we're lucky to be in a state where at least we have a governor and a Secretary of Health who says science things. ANL: Absolutely. Absolutely. I worry now that Mr. Trump is now trying to discredit Dr. Fauci. That has me concerned. I mean, when doctors say that patients are telling them they're lying, you're telling me I have it and I don't because it's -- have you ever? Never. LB: Can't imagine, I can't understand why. It's this whole thing of sort of wanting something, it's like a little kid that wants something to be a way, so they just won't listen to anything. ANL: I can't fathom it. And that he has a cult. I'm sorry, that's what I call them. There's no rhyme or reason. LB: Yeah. (laughs) I have questions on here that don't apply to you, they have to do with queer dating hook-up sites, probably you're not using those. ANL: No, I haven't used those. (laughs) LB: Let's talk about like what things have changed in your life? Things that have specifically changed in your life that are happening now, what stuff is -- in a way because Daniel is not working, you don't have to worry about him working, so there's that. ANL: Thank god. LB: But, I mean, if you've been in since March, Trish and I have been too really, it's interesting to imagine that we've done things that we would not have normally done. ANL: Yeah. LB: Have you done that? ANL: We started, I call it my pandemic garden. Dan and I are die hard city people, so this is the first time we've ever really gardened. And I'm enjoying it. It's actually brought us together. At the beginning we were almost ready to kill each other. It was just the closeness and I guess all the stress, and everything was just so horrible. And I just said, why don't we do a garden. And it's been healing. I found it healing. LB: It's a flower garden or a vegetable garden? ANL: A vegetable garden. And I even had potatoes in honor of you and Trish because I look at your pictures every year and I'm amazed. LB: I'm going to send you stuff to put in your garden. (inaudible) onions, which are perennials. I think yeah, this is the -- usually we go away and we don't get a chance -- because we're aware we have another person water it, but they're not weeding it, and he actually came and saw the garden and said, this is the best I've actually seen the garden. And I said, yep, because we're maniacally -- ANL: Pull weeds. (laughs) LB: What do you have in the garden? ANL: I have potatoes, and I'm growing garlic, and broccoli, and cauliflower, and squash, and you name it, I've got it out there. But we did kind of let the cucumbers get this big. We're learning. LB: Here is something you can plant. The next time you go to the grocery store, if you go to an organic, a place that has organic vegetables, get a celery, a full sized celery. Then cut the bottom off. Do you have celery in the garden? ANL: Actually I have celery in my refrigerator as we speak. LB: Well, cut the bottom off and take that bottom and put it in a little thing of water, not up real high, and grow some roots out of the bottom of the thing, you know where the bottom is -- ANL: Really? LB: Once those grow down and you've got a little bit of roots, you can put it in the garden, water it like a regular thing, and celery will grow out of it. We have celery in our garden now that is growing. ANL: That is phenomenal, I have to do that. LB: It's really terrific. If it's organic then it will grow more, but it should probably even work if it isn't organic, but it should be okay. And we have two plants that we started earlier and we actually had one other celery plant that came from Rodale, but it's been -- it's very successful. It's very easy to grow that. And you know how you can -- and then when it's time to eat it, and you can eat it when it's small too, you just cut the pieces off, you don't have to pull it out, so that it keeps -- ANL: Pull the whole thing, yeah. I've actually gotten into on Facebook, I found a group, Beneficial Weeds. I'm learning which weeds in my garden can be used as tea, and salves, and all this other -- it's pretty fascinating. LB: Purslane. ANL: Yes, I have tons of it. I actually had chamomile and I never knew it. LB: That's wonderful. Good for you, Anita, that's really a good thing. So, that's something you're doing that you normally wouldn't do. ANL: No, I never would have even fathomed it. I'm learning that we can make ourselves happy sometimes. And that's what we're doing. Dan and I have found new ways to connect now that there's no kids. LB: Are you growing green beans? ANL: No, we didn't do green beans. We're going to do them next year. But I am growing Chinese ginger. LB: That's a -- ginger is -- ANL: I love Chinese ginger. LB: Sure. ANL: I have a friend next year sending me seeds from Hong Kong. LB: Now you know that the thing we grow, we don't grow potatoes anymore, we grow sweet potatoes. So, that's what we really grow. ANL: How do you do that? It's not like regular potatoes, right? LB: There's two ways of doing it and we actually get a company sends us the little starter sweet potatoes and they're like roots and we plant those, we get about fifty of those and we plant those in the garden. But you can also do it just by getting an organic sweet potato from the store, especially one that might have sprouted a little bit, and then just do that thing that you do when you sort of put it in water with some toothpicks and stuff so that it sprouts up. Then if you plant the whole thing in the ground, it will begin to have leaves, and it will get roots, and it will grow the potato. ANL: Well, then I might have a sweet potato out there. We had one and I told him, I said, oh just plant it. But then I was reading and I said, it doesn't sound like we're going to get any but you can eat the leaves. LB: You can eat the leaves. They're called Kumara, yeah. ANL: I found a Chinese recipe for them. So, we're going to try them. LB: You can eat the leaves. They're like lettuce, it tastes like lettuce or spinach, sort of a halfway between lettuce and spinach. And they're so prolific, you can get so many leaves. But the thing about sweet potatoes is they're a very, very long season. So, if you planted it in the spring, when did you plant it about? ANL: I think I planted it in the beginning of May. LB: Well, if you leave it all the way, don't be tempted to dig it up until it starts to freeze. And then -- ANL: Really? LB: Yeah. Because they're a long season. And so, if you get Georgia Jets, which are the red ones, those are the fastest because they're called Jets. And you might have a hard time getting, but you absolutely can eat the leaves. And if you dig down and you really don't see anything, leave it there until next year. (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) itself next year. Another thing is if you take the vines and you bury the vines, they will get roots that will go down and make potatoes too. ANL: Now that's probably what he'll do because he loves doing stuff like that. Thank you for the tips. LB: Yeah, those are great though. That's our biggest crop. We get so many sweet potatoes that there are enough for the whole year. We'll give you the name of the place where we get the roots from. But you really can grow from it from sweet potatoes from the store. ANL: It's amazing. Well, I'll let you know what happens. Because I have that one growing. LB: I'm dying to know. That sounds terrific. You were running PFLAG for so long, are you not doing that as much now? What's the plan? What's the deal? ANL: It had died down for a very, very long time. Sporadically I would get people asking for information and help over the internet, but the last year, after I think it was around December, I started hearing about a lot of young people getting upset with all that was going on with all the politics. So, someone had started the PFLAG chapter again, we had one meeting in February, and then the pandemic hit. I mean, I withdrew because I had differences with that person. I didn't think that -- we had different ideas of ways of -- so, I decided that I would step down and we'll see what happens. Hopefully everything will go well. LB: If you get calls from people, particular families of transgender youth, we have now we're running at the Community Center twice a month, a virtual Zoom meetings for families of transgender kids. ANL: Right, that's where I always refer everyone, Bradbury-Sullivan Center is the place to go. LB: Feel free to send them directly to me if you think because -- although we have fourteen employees now, which is amazing. ANL: Wow. That's fantastic. LB: So, we have fourteen wonderful employees and they're wonderful, they're just incredible, and Adrian is wonderful. But a lot of times when people call, they have very time consuming jobs, and I still run the info line so that if people call and they need somebody to talk to and ask questions, they don't always have -- there's not always an opportunity for them to have the kind of information from -- some of our employees are new to the community so they can't refer -- like if (inaudible) or anybody who's LGBT in Stroudsburg, they don't even know what (inaudible) is, much less -- ANL: Yeah. No, I always refer everyone to you guys because I mean, up here it's sparse. And it tends to get sticky up here at times. So, I always, you guys are like number one on my, you're on my rapid dial. (laughs) LB: Do you know or has anybody contacted you or people who are being out during the pandemic that are finding that to be -- because some youth are having problems with it. ANL: Actually my -- my most recent call from help was a lady down in Florida. Someone I know in Florida gave her my number, and her daughter just started their hormone, their HRT, and she's having a very hard time with going out and going shopping, and trying to be supportive but being stuck, and how they can get their medicine, and so I did a little research down that end of the town. But other than that it's been quiet. It seems to be a lot of elderly people trying to accept. Because the kids seem to be doing wonderfully. At our PFLAG meeting, the one meeting we had, we had a lady from Lehighton bring her five year old transgender daughter. But the baby was hiding under the table the whole time, so insecure, and my heart, my heart. But I told her, I said try calling you guys, you might know other little ones that maybe they can do playdates. And so, hopefully she called. LB: Adrian was working on a process, a potential program, and you know we have to have funding for all these things to pay for anybody because we can't just have a program, we have to have funding, we have to have support, and really set it all up and stuff. But he was working on a program for LGBT families with kids. So, it could be that the kids are LGBT, little kids, so little kids, we're talking about little kids, zero to six, because kids are looking for playdates with other kids who are LGBT or families who are pro-LGBT. It could be two lesbians, it could be two gay men, who have kids, or it could be trans families that have kids, or it could be families that have little kids that are trans or who are -- ANL: Yeah, it seems like it would be beneficial because this lady was desperate. She has to homeschool because when she wants to wear a dress to school people make fun. The school wasn't cooperative with pronouns and things. And she said she's in a backwards area where there's nothing for her either. I'll contact her and find out if she talked to you guys yet. LB: Well, I can say that the most recent Supreme Court decision, the Bostock Decision, that's a pretty good decision for us. It's about employment, it's not about schools, but the precedent that it set was very significant. So, things are going to change with regard to that. ANL: Yeah, it just takes time. LB: It does, but when you have the law behind you, the school has to do the right thing. Right now they don't, but it's going to be that they're going to have to because of the Bostock decision. ANL: And those babies, those babies need it, they really do. LB: They do, they really do. It's absolutely true. I'm trying to get back to my questions. I lost them. There I go. So, what's the biggest frustration you're having? You're talking a lot about -- I understand the fears, we all have these, and I'm so glad that you've got the gardening thing going. But are you having day to day frustrations? ANL: Every day I open my eyes and turn on the news. It's almost like do I really even want to know. Daniel and I have it down to we'll watch maybe morning news until nine o'clock and then it's done. No more until maybe three o'clock and then it's off for dinner time. Because you can't. It was constant pounding and pounding. We avoid it. And it's frustrating that I feel we can't go to a lot of places now because the way things are, people aren't very friendly or very kind. I even told him when he lost his job, way at the beginning, before any of the nonsense, I was like for some reason I think maybe it's better. It's just it's frustrating that my daughter is by herself, I can't get down there to be with her. My son is in LA. He's got his support group but you know, family, to be there. And he can't come home to visit like he usually does. I haven't seen him since Christmas. And like I said, with my youngest working in the atmosphere she works in with a bad heart. It's tough. LB: It really is. It's really tough. What's the best thing you experienced? Besides the garden? Although the garden sounds really good. ANL: (laughs) I guess connecting with friends. People that, you know, we all work, but I guess I'm on the internet a lot, and I've -- people I went to grammar school with we've connected because everyone is home. I guess that was kind of fun. LB: People who have been contacting you and saying, just checking in to see if you're okay, that kind of stuff? ANL: Yes, like hey, is this the [Amy Sitsinbrino?] from Transfiguration in 1972? (laughs) And it's like yes, it's me. It's just been wild, it's been wild. So, I'm not missing going out. LB: That's because people are home and they're thinking oh, let me look up this person kind of deal. Is that what's happened? ANL: Or a memory just pops in your head and you're I wonder what's up with them. It's been a very strange kind of fun. LB: Now that you have this Zoom capability -- ANL: I know, my husband is never going to see me again. LB: You can see how really real it is. It's different than a little phone thing or something. It's really real time. You're really talking to the person like they're there almost. ANL: Yeah, well, we do this on FaceTime. I think FaceTime is pretty much the same thing. But nothing replaces a hug. LB: That's true. The big difference I think between Zoom and FaceTime, and I don't know FaceTime that well, but it's much easier on Zoom to have multiple people. ANL: Yeah, yeah. FaceTime when we do it for our little birthday parties, it takes a few shots before we get it the right way. LB: Yeah, yeah. So, think about how techy you're becoming now. ANL: I know. I have to say I impressed myself with this. LB: You did. You're brilliant. Thank God that we have this ability to do this, to communicate with people. ANL: Yeah, it makes you miss, like my mom and dad died like five and three years ago, respectively. And too bad, they just missed it, the ability to see all -- to have the grandkids and everything, the great grandkids. LB: Were they in New York? ANL: Yeah, they never left. LB: Do you have other family members in New York? ANL: Yeah. We're estranged. The boys just -- it was -- there is always drama but when Justin and Adrian came out and someone asked me when they were getting married, is this a real wedding, how can this be a real -- I was like, done. I pretty much just said we just can't talk anymore. LB: Are they married, Justin and Adrian? ANL: They were. Unfortunately Hollywood. That's what I say, Hollywood. Their divorce is in the process. Justin's found a new person. And Adrian's still my son. LB: He's a wonderful guy. They had been together a long time. ANL: Seventeen and they're thirty-seven, twenty years. They grew up together. But, you know, they're amicable. And I told Adrian, you'll always be my baby. Yeah, what are you doing to do. He's like Mommy, I'm so -- I'm like no, no, no sorry, it's life, it happens. We're okay. LB: It happens. ANL: Yeah, I can't -- he was my baby too, I can't. And Justin's okay with that. LB: Okay, well that's good. Good for him. How worried are you about you getting it? ANL: Terrified. I was a heavy smoker for many, many years. I have COPD. And my daughter's husband left five weeks ago, and had I not had this terrible history of lung problems, I would have been on a plane. And I told her, if I come down there I can't get sick. So, we're just waiting until airlines figure something out. Because my husband, I won't let him drive. LB: It's complicated. And it's not like you can take a bus or something. ANL: Simple little things. I mean, you know every three months I was on a plane back and forth and it's all stopped. I haven't seen them since Christmas and my heart breaks. LB: Such a complicated thing. And is Daniel at risk? He seems like a big strapping guy. ANL: No, he's pretty healthy. He has borderline diabetes, it's not full-fledged, but we still won't take chances. It's just not -- especially that his family is like -- yeah, it's kind of bowling them over so, no thank you, we'll stay home. LB: I don't mean to point this out, but I'm quite a bit older than you, but we're older and they're saying that people over 45 are at a much higher risk. ANL: Yeah, it's true, it's scary. And I know what it's like not to be able to breathe. I mean, if it's anything like that it's scary. And to have to go through it alone? LB: The second layer of it, that whole thing of getting it and then like I know somebody who had it and it was devastatingly hard for her, but she had family and she also has a lot of medical connections, like she has healthcare connections. If she hadn't had that, if she'd been -- in fact, I can think of three people who had it, had they been well they would have died, just no question that they would have died. ANL: Yeah, it's horrible. And I mean, not only is it hard for the person with it, but for the family. His cousins were totally locked out, they had no information until she passed away. LB: Was she in New York City? ANL: New York City during the first three weeks. LB: Oh no. ANL: When everything was berserk. And she thought it was a cold. They took her to the emergency room, the staff converged, and everyone had to leave, and that was it. They didn't know until she passed. LB: That's awful. Do you think this is like, and I know how it is for me, but in terms of mental health, I don't see how it can't affect people every day. ANL: Oh it does. The depression, the depression for me was awful. And the anxiety. Every time I had to leave my house I would palpitate, I would sweat, it was horrible. I try not to leave now. And like I said, Dan and I will go out at six, seven in the morning. And we went to I think it was Walmart and it was frightening. It was crowded, no masks, it was horrifying. There was a young woman there carrying a baby, no mask, no nothing, and I was horrified. And that was it, I told him after that. I stayed in bed for two days after that. And I kind of told him, I said I can't do that. But I have to be in open air. I'll go to the farmer's market, I'll go to the farm store, but Giant and -- no, I can't. It's horrifying. LB: You can't control the other people and they're the ones that are putting you at risk. I know that you've seen this circumstance that happened here in Lehigh Valley with the police. ANL: Yes, yeah. LB: And I actually had an interview with someone at five o'clock, but I knew that she would want to go. She's a younger person and she's a person of color, and I knew that she would want to be at this thing. So, I said let's do your thing tomorrow. And Adrian said, people should go out and our employees can go to join this march. But then he went on to say, if you're not at risk. And I look at the videos of the first march, which was on Saturday, late Saturday night, and most of the people, because these are Black Lives Matters marches and they wore the mask. I saw one person, but I also noticed that the police were not wearing masks. And some of them were, but most of them weren't. And some of the elected officials weren't wearing masks. And I also saw somebody who had their mask not covering their face. And I know these people are chanting and shouting. And I understand why, I understand exactly why, but I cannot be around a bunch of people who are chanting, and shouting, and screaming, even though I want to be, that's where my heart is. ANL: It's true. Justin stayed in for most of the protests. The first one he went to was the big one in LA for the Black Lives Matter at the Pride Black Lives Matter, he went to that one. And he showed pictures, they were like this. But they were all masked. And he went and got tested and all of them tested negative. So, I'm thinking maybe protesting is not as bad as indoors. LB: Well, if you're outside and everybody is wearing a mask. I think with a lot of those protests for Black Lives Matter protests, you can count on those people being very careful and not wanting, not getting close if they can avoid it, and I know these people didn't do it either. But you don't need a lot of people to infect a big group. You have one person can infect a lot of people and it doesn't matter if you're wearing a mask. ANL: And not only that, saying something isn't easy either because you always have to wonder what's going to happen if I say something to someone to wear a mask, are they going to try to punch me. LB: Yeah, no kidding. ANL: My stress just goes -- LB: I know. ANL: Because I hate, I couldn't stand being there watching this young mother have her baby, neither of them masked, in the middle of the store, I wanted to shake her. And you just have to like put your hands under here and go no, can't do it, can't do it these days. It's horrifying, I find it, because I'm a mom. LB: I know. ANL: And the baby, if you don't want to wear it, fine. The baby. LB: And even just the baby wearing the mask, it's other people. ANL: Yeah, breathing on him. LB: And if you have a -- when we are talking about opening schools and stuff, how can -- I have a friend who's a pediatrician and she had people ask her, moms ask her, is it okay for my kid to go to daycare and she said, "Well, let me ask you this. When your kid goes to daycare, do they ever get a cold from anybody else at daycare, or the flu, or any other thing?" They get everything at daycare. ANL: Turbo germs. I call them turbo germs. LB: Yeah, it's tough to put your life on hold but maybe you need to find something else to do for a year or two. ANL: Florida opened daycare on July 8. What they did down there is the daycares closed in March, but they were still charging. So, my daughter said, I'm not going to pay, she withdrew them. But a lot of parents had done that, they still held the slots. When school opened on July 8, the rule was that the children couldn't have backpacks and they had to be dropped at the door. The parents were not allowed into the school to see what precautions were being taken, to see how the children were being set up. My daughter was like, are they crazy. She's like I want to go in there and see what they're doing. But evidently throughout Florida the parents in daycare have no idea what's going on. LB: I just don't see how they can possibly -- if you've got one infected kid or a teacher that's infected, how they can keep that from happening to other people. ANL: Holidays, how are they going to go on holidays? I have -- maybe it's because I'm a person of color, I believe this is like his own private genocide. This is their way of getting rid of brown people, Black people, poor people, they don't care. It's like clear it out, we'll buy up the real estate. It sounds very harsh and I know it's like -- but that's how I feel. LB: I totally understand. I understand exactly what you mean. I've interviewed a lot of people and this is my third COVID interview, but I interview ten people about HIV/AIDS during the epidemic, and these were older guys, mostly men, three women and seven men, who lived through the AIDS epidemic. And they were talking about it in relation to COVID too. And I have to tell you Anita, that although you see people acting stupid, people that we really know are not acting stupid. I mean, these guys are not acting stupid, you and Daniel aren't acting stupid, your kids aren't acting foolishly, so there is an unfortunate segment of the population who's a bunch of carriers. ANL: And they don't believe it. And they don't believe it. I mean, if you go into your physician you're whole life, and they've always been amazing to you, and they tell you you have COVID, and you turn around and tell them they're lying, what mind games does he play on people? It's so beyond my capability to understand how these people are so enraptured by that. He's Jim Jones. LB: Yeah, it's really true. It's really frightening. Well, we're coming to the end of this. We've been talking for an hour almost. And I just want to, let's see if I've gotten all of these questions, I think we've covered everything here. I'm so excited about your garden, I can't wait to hear more about it. Do you have anything else you -- so think about this way, someday, someday in the future, somebody is going to look back on this way past perhaps our lives, because we don't have any information about what happened to people on a person to person circumstance with regard to the flu epidemic of 1918, which is comparable to this, where millions of people, millions, in the 50 million people died. And we didn't have any information about that and I think it's important for us to leave information behind to perhaps educate people about not making this kind of mistake in the future. Now, in the future, people may look at this and go, we have this vaccine, or they might go, yeah, half the population is gone now, or who knows. What do you want to tell those people, those people thirty, or forty, or fifty years from now who are people like your age or people your kids' ages, what do you think? ANL: That we weren't crazy. We weren't speaking hyperbolically. We were truth tellers. And it's hard, I think, for people like us to understand people so full of hate and so full of anger. And it's beyond me. And I always thought America pulled together. America was always the country, I'm sorry, that pulled together. (crying) And we're not. LB: But you know what? I think this is the problem, the pulling together requires people being present and right now the people who care the most about other people can't be present. Because I can't come and hug you. I can't come and hug and we can't, this group of people who is going to protest for Black Lives Matter. And the Black Lives Matter stuff has been great. I have to say the people who are speaking out about that have been very significant. But those people have to be really careful. Justin can't go and he won't go to every one of those things because it puts other people at risk. And he is a caring person. ANL: Yeah, it hurts. It hurts a lot. I do what I can but how much can we do? There's no -- I feel like we're screaming at the tops of our lungs and no one is listening. Yeah, and it does, it takes you to very dark places sometimes. And this isn't my America. There's a movie, it's an old one, I'm an old movie fanatic, White Cliffs of Dover. LB: What is it called? White Cliffs of Dover. Okay. ANL: White Cliffs of Dover. And at the end American troops are marching through England, we saved the day, and it leaves you feeling so happy. And it's like that's not us anymore. And it made me cry, it made me really cry for something we lost. LB: Yeah. But here's something I always say about WWII films, because that's a WWII film. ANL: Yeah, it sure is. LB: WWII films, there's two kinds of films, there are the films that they made during the war when they didn't know whether they were going to win. Like Since You Went Away with Claudette CoLBert is a great example of that. So, it's a real movie to encourage people to do the right thing. And then there's movies that were made after the war when they knew we were going to win. And they're a different kind of movie. It's a different kind of patriotism. But both of those things were made to make people more strong in regard to their patriotism. And the problem is that creative people, I mean, right now it's harder for them to make a movie about -- you know, we've only been dealing with this since March. ANL: Yeah. LB: If you look at like the flu epidemic of 1918, which I talk about a lot, my grandmother died in that flu epidemic, but in 1918 mostly young people got it. Mostly young people who were -- not kids, but people from twenty to forty years old. And that flu epidemic was -- it lasted for fifteen months and then it disappeared because it mutated and just disappeared. But one out of every three people in the world had that flu. And we're only into what, six months of this, so far. ANL: Yeah, we're still at the beginning. LB: And people want it to be over so bad. People feel that way about war too. They're like, we want the war to end right away, and they want it that -- they expect WWII, they were expecting that in both WWII, WWI, Civil War, that it would end in three months or four months, and it doesn't. And I do think that we have a chance for hope. We've got some amazing young people, we've got every person, every real scientist in the world is working on this epidemic. That's one of the things that people who lived through the AIDS epidemic that I just interviewed compared to this. Because the AIDS epidemic, it was years before anybody did anything. ANL: Yeah, that's so true. It's so true. LB: Even though we have somebody in the White House that is not very smart, and that's a generous thing to say. ANL: (laughs) That's very kind of you. LB: People all over the country and the majority of people, quite frankly, I think, who are aware that this is very, very serious. And it's shocking to see. It's the people who are out doing stupid things are the people who are stupid. The smart people are in their houses. And that's one of the problems I think too. ANL: Yeah, well, I firmly believe Darwin should just do his thing right now. LB: Yeah, except for there's collateral damage. ANL: Yeah, they talk to us too. That's the bad part. But anyway, hopefully soon we can go back to a new normal. LB: I hope so. Let's hope so. And I think we will actually. I hope that we'll learn from this, at least for a while. ANL: I don't think we can go through this again in our lifetimes. I think this is my full. I could not go through this again. LB: I really agree, but you think about people in WWI and then they had to do WWII. So, they had to do that in their own lifetimes. And they were in countries that were being attacked. There's a kitty. ANL: That's my baby. LB: There's another person in your house. That's a beautiful cat. What's your cat's name? ANL: Aslan. The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. LB: There you go. ANL: He used to have a mane. LB: I am going to turn off the record button now. But thank you again so much for your involvement in this. It's been so great. END OF AUDIO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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01:05:15
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Anita Niles-Lee, July 13, 2020
Description
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Anita discusses how the COVID-19 pandemic is affecting her and her family; how her family has experienced racism and the rise of racism during the pandemic; keeping in touch with her family; the Black Lives Matter movement; stepping down from PFLAG; and gardening.
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PH40_18
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
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2020-07-13
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
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In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Liz Bradbury
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Lizabeth Kleintop
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_17.xml
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5.4 July 21, 2020 Lizabeth Kleintop, July 21, 2020 PH40_17 00:59:10 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Lizabeth Kleintop Liz Bradbury video/mpeg KleintopLizabeth_20200721_video.mp4 1.0:|21(8)|48(2)|73(10)|106(6)|135(7)|160(8)|183(3)|206(13)|229(6)|250(16)|273(11)|288(3)|311(12)|342(7)|363(9)|384(13)|407(12)|432(7)|453(2)|480(3)|503(14)|524(15)|543(8)|566(10)|591(2)|608(11)|637(3)|660(14)|683(2)|708(4)|729(8)|750(13)|771(12)|794(3)|817(10)|840(4)|865(3)|890(5)|911(13)|934(5)|951(2)|970(14)|993(3)|1014(10)|1035(18)|1054(12)|1077(4)|1100(5)|1129(9)|1152(10)|1175(2)|1210(6)|1239(12)|1276(2)|1307(13)|1326(11)|1353(4)|1386(6)|1435(4)|1450(5) 0 https://youtu.be/DAZ7q0BHlWk YouTube video 0 Interview Introduction LB: [...] With this project, Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center in the Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh LGBT community, collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences, from HIV-AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury, and I am here with Lizabeth Kleintop to talk about her experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of COVID-19 pandemic as a part of the Lehigh community LGBT Community Archives. 0 262 Lizabeth's position at Moravian University/Discussing new presentation software LB: Oh, so tell us about what your job is then.
 ; 
 ; LK: Yeah, I’m a member of the faculty and a director of assessment and accreditation in the economics and business department at Moravian College. I teach largely in the graduate program in change management, human resources management, and analytics.
 ; 0 413 Teaching online for the foreseeable future LK: But it looks, as I said to you before, was that, my guess is that we will still be doing it in Spring, we’re not going to have a widely available vaccine until then. So really I’m developing in the work I’ve done this summer is almost redeveloping my course where it’s fully online, from blended formant, and it’s a time consuming process. I have a course going on right now which is not as detailed, because the students are working on a project, a capstone project, almost a thesis. 0 823 Working virtually LK: Well I’ve been working through, and largely working on classes. I’m teaching one now, I’m developing my fall classes, getting ready to go. So it’s been largely focused on classes and that kind of work. 0 938 Moravian students' thoughts on online school LB: Are you hearing from students, with regard to how they feel about the potential of a year or two, or a year without direct contact? Are you getting anything from students about that?
 ; 
 ; LK: A little bit here and there. I have a few undergraduate advisees, and I picked up that it’s somewhat of a mixed bag from what I’ve talked with them about when we Zoom. And some of them are not particularly happy that they may still be online, because some of them are stuck in a situation where they don’t -- even in Palmerton for that matter, where their high-speed internet is somewhat iffy at times. 0 1061 Furloughs at Moravian University/Capital projects on campus LK: There were furloughs now. And I know some people were furloughed and then brought back and people who were there on campus were then furloughed to be brought back again. The college is, as an employer and as a whole -- well I guess many employers do have different structures in terms of employment. There are people like myself who are on a twelve year contract, for instance. You’ve got people who are ten-month contracts as faculty, but also staff. 0 1297 Staying in contact with daughter, sister, and mother LK: Meh. Not so much family. My daughter and I, every other week or so we chat a little bit while one of us, usually her, is on a walk. (inaudible) my sister. I see my mother ; my mother is in independent living at Luther Crest. And she doesn’t have a car, so I became her Uber, her Grub Hub, and her medical transport. 0 1458 Concerns for self and LGBTQ community/Executive order attempting to ban trans people from homeless shelters LK: [...] Just the virus itself, you know. I’m sixty-four, so I’m getting up there, I’m a type-two diabetic. I don’t control it with insulin, thank heavens. I walk a lot and watch what I eat. But there’s a risk there for me for it. So personally there’s some concern there, and I’m concerned that we’re not controlling it. We have the politicization of the whole thing about masks. I have four of them, personally. (laughter) Including one I made myself, by hand, no sewing machine, which is kind of a miracle. Black Lives Matter, it’s all really fed, a really turbulent time in this household. I mean [federal administration?] is really taking advantage of the pandemic, trying to push through executive orders, to the detriment of the LGBT community. 0 1675 Major job loss during the pandemic LB: Apparently the statistic is, again for future generations to hear this, that fifty million people have lost their jobs. So that’s a very significant thing when we’re talking about that stuff, and people who have their jobs --
 ; 
 ; LK: And it hasn’t been distributed evenly across the population either, across the labor force. Most of those 50 million people who have lost their jobs are people who are in the service sector. 0 1740 Thoughts on Dr. Rachel Levine and Governor Tom Wolf LB: Yeah. You’ve met Dr. Levine, right?
 ; 
 ; LK: Yes, I have. And the governor as well. I think they both handled it very well, putting up with a lot of bologna. I’m being polite, because this is for the future. (laughs) Dr. Levine has just handled everything very professionally, quietly, calmly, and even through loads and loads of disrespect, including what happened at Bloomsburg Fair, apparently in the dunking tank. Which is horrible, it’s absolutely abhorrent. And so I think we’re lucky to have her, and the governor, because they really kept focus. 0 1940 Interacting with trans and queer people on Twitter/Using Facebook LK: Yeah, you know I’m not a big fan of the dating apps. They haven’t really worked well for me, so eh. (laughs) But I have spent a lot of time on Twitter though. That’s been very interesting actually, through the pandemic. I’ve spent more time, we’re on Facebook together. 0 2092 JK Rowling's anti-trans views/Britain's pandemic protocols LB: And we know people, we both know people who are transgender who were so committed to Harry Potter, that any kind of dress-up would never go by where they weren’t wearing their Harry Potter outfits. Now that’s totally gone. And I think that the legacy of these books is over, it’s absolutely over. I think people are taking them out of the library, it’s amazing. Book stores (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible)
 ; 
 ; LK: Book sales, for instance, hard book sales have actually increased because of the pandemic. People are buying them online and getting them shipped. But Harry Potter books have not. Their increase has been relatively small compared to the larger increase in sale of books overall. 
 ; 0 2274 Grocery shopping LK: I’ve been to the grocery stores, to Wegmans and Giants, Giants for my mother. I’ve been to CVS to pick some stuff up, but up though the driveway. When I had to pick up a prescription, I go to Hartselle’s Pharmacy, (inaudible) for my hormone prescription since it’s compounded I’ve been there. I’ve been to [Fred’s place?] once, and two weeks ago I went and got my hair done. That’s been it.
 ; 0 2373 Attending online Zoom conferences/events LK: Well conference wise, only two. A professional one with our accreditor. And I have another one of those coming up in Academy Management that I’ll probably go to. And I’ve done a couple things with the center. We had the one session on the book review with the author on the queering of corporate America, I went to. And I went to one or two things on Renaissance with Amazon -- with Amazon, with Zoom, here. 0 2468 Young trans people dealing with coming out LK: No. But in Twitter, the feed that shows up, what’s interesting is that there are some people, they’re younger, they tend to be. They work, they live alone. And essentially they consider themselves to be out. They’ve been at home now since March, whether they’re working from home or whatever. 0 2590 Piecemeal approaches to inclusion at the institutional level/Systemic organizational issues LB: So what’s the biggest frustration or the biggest challenge you’ve had to come into contact with?
 ; 
 ; LK: It’s interesting in many ways. We’ve been doing some work with the college in terms of response to Black Lives Matter. Frankly it kind of drives me nuts because it’s so episodic. Something happens, the world goes nuts, well we have to address this, and they take this very narrow focus. And they talk about it really at institutional levels, but we’re talking structural stigmatization issues and the like, and then everybody goes through it, and says okay we’ve done it, and then they walk away. 0 3036 Mental health during the pandemic LB: So, in general, do you feel your mental health is pretty good during this stuff? You're doing pretty well but I can see how there's also frustrations and stuff. What's the hardest thing you've experienced so far? [I think?] --
 ; 
 ; LK: [Yeah?] (inaudible) (laughter) truthfully, the hardest thing so far has been dealing with, you know, the frustrations, the anxieties, the fears of Black Lives Matters and the intersections of that. 0 3103 Knowing someone contracted Covid-19 LK: Yeah. I had a grad student who was ill. But, you know, yeah, she and her husband both were, you know, had -- went to the emergency rooms, got diagnosis and all. And so, they were self-quarantined at home by themselves. 0 3215 Thoughts for the future/2020 presidential election LK: Well, I wish they would, you know, send me a message so I would know what happens in November. I need to know if I'm going to move to Canada or not, you know?
 ; 
 ; LB: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; LK: (laughs) It's kind of sort of funny in a way that when I was just entering college, way back when, Vietnam War was on and people were going, some people were going to Canada and avoid the draft. Now I'm talking about going to Canada to avoid Donald Trump if he gets reelected. And God, I hope not. 
 ; 0 3499 Conclusion LB: Anyway, it's been great to talk to you. Thank you so much for talking to me.
 ; 
 ; LK: [Yeah?].
 ; 
 ; LB: It's been -- always --
 ; 
 ; LK: You're welcome.
 ; 0 MovingImage Lizabeth Kleintop talks about how the current COVID-19 pandemic is affecting her as a professor at a local college, how teaching online is progressing and what Moravian College may do in the next few semesters. She also talks about her experience as a Transgender woman and how she is communicating with other Trans people and the concerns she has regarding the institutional transphobia that is being put forth by the current presidential administration and culture. Lizabeth Kleintop2020-07-21 LIZABETH KLEINTOP: Come to understand, with doing online teaching and as you create videos, and even other material, with the cost of creation, there's a shelf life of that course in essence. And the problem with that is, at least in business, so much changes that in another year, you want to update the course. Because of the cost, that's not being done. So it's going to have this impact on learning that's going to be a bit strange, because it won't be like I do a lecture every time, and basically the same stuff, as you're saying. But you add material to it as you go along because of new knowledge, new learning, new circumstances. LIZ BRADBURY: All for all my trainings, because of the Supreme Court Bostock thing, everything has to be updated with regard to that because we actually thought that that wasn't going to come out that way, and so we were back-tracking a little bit on what the state was saying. And now I have to upgrade that. But then there's some [HUD?] things that Trump has just done, which influenced some of those things, too. Although I think in the long run that's not going to fly, but we will see what happens with that. So okay, I have (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible). Well let me say this first, and then we can talk about stuff. So I have to say this. With this project, Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center in the Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh LGBT community, collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences, from HIV-AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury, and I am here with Lizabeth Kleintop to talk about her experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of COVID-19 pandemic as a part of the Lehigh community LGBT Community Archives. Today is Tuesday, July 21st, 2020. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start, can you please state your full name and spell it for me. LK: My full name is Lizabeth Kay Kleintop. L-I-Z-A-B-E-T-H K-A-Y K-L-E-I-N-T-O-P. LB: Will you please share your birthdate? LK: Must I? Oh, no. LB: You don't have to, you don't have to, and I've told three other people that they didn't have to. LK: Oh, I really don't care. LB: Okay. LK: I'm sixty-four, November 6th, 1955. I'll be sixty-five in November. LB: Do you consent to this -- this is the consent portion. So do you consent to this interview today? LK: Yes. LB: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable format? LK: Yes. LB: Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats, including films, articles, websites, presentations, and other formats we may not even know about today? LK: Absolutely. They can have a great time with it. LB: Oh, cool, okay. And do you understand that you will have thirty days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview, identify any parts you'd like to delete, and/or withdraw your interview from the project? LK: Yes, I do. LB: I forgot to ask you what town you're in? Are you in Bethlehem? LK: Bethlehem. LB: Okay. What is your zip code there? LK: 18017. LB: Okay, and the next question is, what is your age, and you already said you were sixty-four. How do you identify within the LGBT community? LK: Transgender lesbian with preferred pronouns of she, her, and hers. LB: Okay, great. So I sent you this list of things that we can talk about. What we were just talking about, some interesting -- and this is part of it, some of the stuff about how classes are going to go because of your involvement at Moravian College, you're a dean at Moravian College. And so, you were talking about -- LK: -- I'm not the dean. LB: Oh, so tell us about what your job is then. LK: Yeah, I'm a member of the faculty and a director of assessment and accreditation in the economics and business department at Moravian College. I teach largely in the graduate program in change management, human resources management, and analytics. LB: Okay. Good, okay. And so we were just talking about online teaching and different kinds of ways of doing presentations, and you were talking about some new software, but finish what you were saying, because that was so interesting. LK: About Mm-hmm? LB: Yeah. LK: I know that's kind of odd of a name, but that's the way they have it. Yeah, it's really software, it's in beta right now, and it's a software which I got used to the whole concept of the weather person on television pointing. But they're really pointing on a green screen, and they're overlaying the video of the maps and everything else. But this kind of brings that whole concept into play right on your laptop. So you can take a PowerPoint presentation, for instance, and instead of just talking over it, or maybe having your head show up in a corner if you're zooming along, this software allows you to actually move yourself around the screen, make yourself bigger or smaller, have the presentation over your shoulder so you can point to it if you're off in the corner. So it tends to be a little more animated than you would have in a normal presentation, kind of thing. So you can record that, create is as an .mp4, for instance. Or you can actually push it right through Zoom, or other tools to get it out there in the world and record it. It's actually kind of cool that some of these new tools are showing up, just at the right time when we need it. LB: And I think you were talking too, about for faculty who are not going to be able to present programs in person, which is likely, and you were saying it was likely for the next year, that that would probably be the case from now. I think so too. LK: In March, all of a sudden, everything kind of shut down, of course with the COVID-19 pandemic. And it was kind of an abrupt stop, everything must go up online. Now, I've been doing online work since the mid-1990s, so it wasn't a big issue for me as it is for some of my colleagues. But it looks, as I said to you before, was that, my guess is that we will still be doing it in Spring, we're not going to have a widely available vaccine until then. So really I'm developing in the work I've done this summer is almost redeveloping my course where it's fully online, from blended formant, and it's a time consuming process. I have a course going on right now which is not as detailed, because the students are working on a project, a capstone project, almost a thesis. So I don't have to do a lot in that sense. It still took me sixty hours of work, at least, in Canvas, our LMS, to get it all set and ready to go. So my fall classes are going to be even longer, although I've gotten a head start on some of that. And the costs of putting all of that in place is very high. And so it doesn't get changed the way it should every time you offer your class in a normal format, lecture format, or in-person format, if you would. I mean I would change a lecture every semester because I learn something new, or something didn't work quite as well with the students, or we're headed in slightly new directions, but you can't do that as easily online, without discarding whole modules of work. So it's going to be a really interesting change in that way for the higher ed community too, because of the virus. LB: Yeah, it's certainly true, I think too, and I know this when I'm doing trainings that if what I'm doing is Zoom training, and I can't see the audience, I can't tell as well whether they're getting it, you know? Often you have to (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible). Yeah, is that working okay for you? LK: Well I've done one already with the nursing department, and I have another coming up next week with the nursing students to talk about transgender community and healthcare issues. And it's much more difficult to tell if they're really paying attention out there in the world, or even have questions. I still get fewer questions that way, even if I try to stop. And when I'm invited in, I'm invited in to talk, not so much really take over the whole class and teach it. Some things that help, I've noticed in classes that I've done, and Zoom supports this, is to do breakout groups so that you can come up with a -- you know, if you're doing training, and maybe doing something with implicit bias, have everybody do an IAT beforehand, and then put them into small groups so they can talk about their IAT and their findings and what they think it could mean, and bring that back to the larger group. I think that helps somewhat. It also allows you to pop in as the facilitator or instructor, with each group and see what they're doing too. LB: Tell us what an IAT is. LK: Pardon me? Oh, IAT is the -- it's an implicit bias test, so specifically called, when Google decides to show up, Implicit Association Test is the formal name for it. And it's a fairly reliable and valid way of testing someone's internal mental biases. It's not really good at predicting how you're going to behave, but it works in larger groups, and it helps surface at least some things that you should pay attention to and reflect on. LB: Yeah, well that's good. And it's a discussion started, certainly. LK: Oh, yes. In some cases it's a discussion ender. LB: [laughs] I can understand that, I really can. So let's get back to the more specific COVID, although this stuff is really right on, because we're talking absolutely about how we're going to do what we've always been doing, how we're doing these things in this new way. So many people thought -- many people thought, not me, and probably not you, but thought that we were going to be done with this by now. And there's no way that we're going to be done with this for a long time. So we have to talk about new ways of doing things. And a number of people are also talking about how it is going to be to integrate us all back into human contact, and how it's going to be tricky to do that, because I'm sort of getting used to not being around people. When I wake up in the morning, I think, "no, I don't have to go to work, I'm just here." It's not like this whole process of doing that. I work hard. I'm working harder than I have before, I think, but it's different. LK: And we all have our Zoom shirts now, so, you know, we're good. LB: So who's at home with you? Are you by yourself where you are, pretty much? Or you have other people there that you're seeing regularly, or what do you do? What's your deal? LK: My cat, [Sirius?]. Actually, my grandcat. He is my daughter's cat, and I keep telling her that, but somehow he lives here with me. But no people, just the neighbors. LB: Okay, so it's you. And so -- LK: -- Just me. LB: Have you been working all the way through? Did you have time off? Or as an administrator have you just been working all the way through from home or remotely? LK: Well I've been working through, and largely working on classes. I'm teaching one now, I'm developing my fall classes, getting ready to go. So it's been largely focused on classes and that kind of work. I have done a ton of webinars, I've been to one virtual conference, I've got another one coming up I think I'm going to go to. I've been prepping some talks with other classes and groups, I've been doing my research, so yeah kind of been working anyhow. But pacing myself. LB: Sure. When things closed down in March, did you have to suddenly shuffle things around, and did everyone at the campus have to shuffle things around? Since you're a person who really understands IT, were people all coming to you and saying I don't know how to do this, and to be able to teach the rest of the -- LK: -- Yeah we had some (inaudible) In the department we had set up a number of meetings of faculty as a group to get together, and those were the faculty who were less experienced with using the technology, particularly the learning management system and the video systems, and wanted to learn about them. We'd get together in a Zoom meeting just casually and ask questions, and do this, that, and the other thing. And actually colleges are fairly good at setting up training programs in Spring and now through the Summer to support the faculty to get things together. So that's been very helpful for faculty that needed it. LB: Are you hearing from students, with regard to how they feel about the potential of a year or two, or a year without direct contact? Are you getting anything from students about that? LK: A little bit here and there. I have a few undergraduate advisees, and I picked up that it's somewhat of a mixed bag from what I've talked with them about when we Zoom. And some of them are not particularly happy that they may still be online, because some of them are stuck in a situation where they don't -- even in Palmerton for that matter, where their high-speed internet is somewhat iffy at times. But there are still some students who are also in a situation where they're not necessarily looking for (inaudible) we say of a regular classroom course. They're actually looking to go online, and they're building their schedules that way as undergrads. The grad students, you know they are working for the most part. So for them, it's almost easier for them to go online. So most of them really preferred at least some face to face time contact in a classroom. They seem to learn better that way. So even my online versions of class are really somewhat blended format, because I do still structure them with having maybe ninety minutes of online synchronously every week so we get to talk to each other. We go over issues like the class now in their thesis, we get together and I have them update the whole class on what they're doing, and their project, any questions and issues, and things like that that are going on. So everybody has some contact at least, and I think that's pretty important. LB: Yeah, sounds great. Good for you. So what about other people in your life? Well, let me ask you this first. Has there been layoffs at the college? I forgot to ask other people that. LK: There were furloughs now. And I know some people were furloughed and then brought back and people who were there on campus were then furloughed to be brought back again. The college is, as an employer and as a whole -- well I guess many employers do have different structures in terms of employment. There are people like myself who are on a twelve year contract, for instance. You've got people who are ten-month contracts as faculty, but also staff. And not all staff are on twelve month all year round at the college. Some are ten months then two off. So the college made the decision early on that people who would benefit by the additional six hundred dollars, same or get a bit more money, they were the ones who were furloughed first. So in terms of monetary income, they weren't really hurt by it. It's still quite down though, because buildings are empty, (inaudible) but some of the facilities crews are still working away and they've still been doing capital projects on campus. LB: Yeah. Yeah, capital projects... I was just saying to Trish, so, have they finished the Tilghman Street Bridge? Because for Heaven's sakes, I mean it's not like they have to be dealing with traffic. It's sort of an unimpeded work time, so I don't -- LK: -- One would think. LB: Maybe in the future, people may not know that people who were working construction, they just continued to work. There really wasn't any circumstance where they -- they were considered essential workers and construction projects have just gone on. So literally you could -- I've hardly been downtown at all. Once in a while I'll go down and go, "look, that building is done now." And then I don't realize how long it has been. In fact we just had one employee on Slack say they'd seen another employee in person for the first time since March. "I just saw Katie for the first time since March." So it's remarkable. And I don't think about that. LK: Well I walked every day ; I let my Apple watch and did circles for the health (inaudible) for exercise. I've been walking every day to close all those circles. So I've been able to get up, cross campus for instance as part of my walks to see the work that's been going on on campus and the like. And I get to downtown and see what the streets look like that are blocked off and set up for outdoor dining kind of things, as well as in other areas of the city, I do that. I must admit I worry about the squirrels on campus, because without people around, are they getting enough food? They got used to people. LB: Apparently that's a thing about cats, particularly in big cities, about cats and bad things like rats. Because there wasn't as much restaurant food, because people weren't eating in restaurants, and everyone who eats in a restaurant, if they don't eat something they just throw it away. So it was feeding all these cats and stuff, and now all these cats and other things are really aggressive in the city, because it's really affecting them. You don't even really think about the [applications?] of that. So I bet the squirrels are pissed. Squirrels have to eat, for Heaven's sakes. So are you communicating with other pals and friends and families by phone or video chat more than you normally would, and stuff like that, do you think? LK: Meh. Not so much family. My daughter and I, every other week or so we chat a little bit while one of us, usually her, is on a walk. (inaudible) my sister. I see my mother ; my mother is in independent living at Luther Crest. And she doesn't have a car, so I became her Uber, her Grub Hub, and her medical transport. So I've had contact with her every other week for a while. Finally it's to every week, and I've been allowing her to go to the grocery store with me. LB: She's in independent living, which means she has an apartment, so she can come out to you, but I would guess that in the assisted living they're not letting people in to visit. LK: No, they're not. And I know some of those programs have been totally off limits, even during the green time for visitors. And Luther Crest has taken the point, well if you're in independent living, you're "independent." But I've tended to be a little more conservative, because she does talk to people and get to walk throughout the hallways and everything else still. They just don't congregate. And given her age and everything, it's a bit of a risk. LB: I was talking to Steve Ziminsky yesterday, whose roommate, [Liam?], is in Manor Care now, which is another assisted living and nursing home. He's actually in the nursing home. And Manor Care which is (inaudible) has one hundred people had COVID-19 there -- one hundred people within the space, including employees, too. And he had it. I mean, everybody had it. I think everybody had it there. I don't think they're making that public, but I think every single person that lived in that care facility had COVID. And they either died or they made it through. But apparently it was a terrible situation. Well that's great, it would be terrible if you didn't get to see your mother. It would be so hard for her too, I'm sure. She's used to seeing you. What's your biggest concern during the pandemic, including your biggest concern for the LGBTQ population? What do you think about that? But just in general, and then, you know... LK: Yeah, this one can take me on a roll. LB: Go ahead! LK: Of course, just the virus itself, you know. I'm sixty-four, so I'm getting up there, I'm a type-two diabetic. I don't control it with insulin, thank heavens. I walk a lot and watch what I eat. But there's a risk there for me for it. So personally there's some concern there, and I'm concerned that we're not controlling it. We have the politicization of the whole thing about masks. I have four of them, personally. (laughter) Including one I made myself, by hand, no sewing machine, which is kind of a miracle. Black Lives Matter, it's all really fed, a really turbulent time in this household. I mean [federal administration?] is really taking advantage of the pandemic, trying to push through executive orders, to the detriment of the LGBT community. The latest one we talked about earlier with HUD and homeless shelters. The push basically to exclude transgender people. So the way they're going about it, it's like, well if you look at them, you can tell who is transgender. LB: I just read the rules. LK: Yeah. LB: Tell what that is, so that people in the future can know, what the rule is. Basically, it's so unbelievable. LK: They say that you can tell when you look at them. If they have an Adam's apple, you can tell if it's a transgender or not, but if they're tall, big feet and big hands. It's like, really? LB: And then, the second level of the rule is that if you suspect that they might be transgender, they have to prove their gender biologically. Well how do they do that? LK: But according to what I've read, they can't ask you to disrobe and show your parts to do it. It's totally crazy, I can't see a judge actually saying, oh yeah that's okay, go for it. LB: I know, so bizarre. And talk about blatant discrimination based on sex, it's blatant sex discrimination. LK: Absolutely. So those are huge concerns for the community overall. And not just the transgender community, but those could easily leak into the lesbian, gay, bisexual, queer community as well. Particularly with non-binary queer people will have some really interesting times if they need to get shelter, and many do. The 600 dollars disappears for people who have been on unemployment at the end of this month, that goes kaput. And a lot of people have a lot of concerns about people not being able to make their rent, they're going to be evicted, and that is just going to put a huge demand on the homeless shelters. We're not ready for it. LB: Apparently the statistic is, again for future generations to hear this, that fifty million people have lost their jobs. So that's a very significant thing when we're talking about that stuff, and people who have their jobs -- LK: And it hasn't been distributed evenly across the population either, across the labor force. Most of those 50 million people who have lost their jobs are people who are in the service sector. And those are jobs which are less well paid than the rest of the world. We're talking to people working in restaurants, the toll there has been horrible. We're talking about people working in brick and mortar stores and the like. So it's been really tough for them, and it's not going to get any easier. And there's just no -- you can't just go pick up a job, oh yeah I'm going to be a welder. No, you need training first. I'm going to drive a truck. No, that doesn't work either, you need training. Unlike some in our (inaudible). LB: We like to ask everybody this, because we're lucky in the state of Pennsylvania, that we have pretty good leadership at the state level, and we have wonderful leadership with regard to our secretary of health. So talk about that, because we want to prop that up. LK: Dr. Levine! LB: Yeah. You've met Dr. Levine, right? LK: Yes, I have. And the governor as well. I think they both handled it very well, putting up with a lot of bologna. I'm being polite, because this is for the future. (laughs) Dr. Levine has just handled everything very professionally, quietly, calmly, and even through loads and loads of disrespect, including what happened at Bloomsburg Fair, apparently in the dunking tank. Which is horrible, it's absolutely abhorrent. And so I think we're lucky to have her, and the governor, because they really kept focus. They've been deliberate whereas some have not, and we're seeing the results of that, particularly down in Florida and Texas and Arizona and even to some degree California. So I think it's been good for Pennsylvania to have both Dr. Levine and Governor Wolf there. It's an important time to have a level head to deal with this pandemic. I really think it's a matter of control. We need to get it to some semblance of control. We can do that with masks, for instance, until we get a vaccine that will work. And who knows how long that's going to be? I know the trials so far, some cases are going well, but there's a billion people plus on this planet, who all need the same vaccine. Who's going to get it first? How are we going to manage that process? That's going to take some time in itself to do. So we have to be able to do other steps and Pennsylvania has been good for that at this point. LB: And I think for our own community it's been terrific to have somebody from the queer community who is the spokesperson for health and science in the state. It's inspiring for a lot of us, too. LK: She's been front and present almost every day since the beginning of the pandemic, and just quietly doing her job. Look, here's a model. Someone who's transgender yet she's not crazy. She's intelligent, she's handling everything quite nicely. Huh, maybe other transgender people do, too. Because some of the research suggests that when people now somebody who is transgender, that tends to tweak their thinking a little bit differently. They have an impact, not directly their implicit biases, but they may think before they act on that biases because they know somebody in a positive light. LB: Yeah. Okay so it's been great, I think it's been great. Now this says here, this is one of the questions they gave me to ask everybody. Are you spending your time on any queer dating or hookup apps? Have you found queer communities -- here, you can say this. Have you found queer community despite the restrictions? LK: Yeah, you know I'm not a big fan of the dating apps. They haven't really worked well for me, so eh. (laughs) But I have spent a lot of time on Twitter though. That's been very interesting actually, through the pandemic. I've spent more time, we're on Facebook together. As I posted the other day I basically rejoined Facebook just to keep some contact with people (inaudible) in the community. So I understood that with everyone being locked down, that kind of slipped away. But really I spent much more time on Twitter. And that's been interesting because my Twitter verse includes trans and queer people in the US, Canada, the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, Australia, and Austria. So it's been really interesting to make those contacts all over, and there's really an age span, too, from people in their twenties into their seventies. And particularly with the trans community, people who are coming out at early ages, or are younger and have been out, and even people who are older. There's a couple people in their fifties, sixties, coming out now as well, and they're part of this trans Twitter, I guess, if you want to put it that way. So it's really been interesting, and interesting to see the differences in the way the younger folk process things from the older folk. You sometimes kind of look at them and say, "okay, okay, be patient with them, they will learn." (laughs) And also to know that with particularly people in the United Kingdom. They're putting up with a lot of crap right now. With TERFs and the government, poor Boris Johnson came out yesterday and said basically conversion therapy is an awful, awful, awful thing. But we can't ban it until we study it. LB: Oh for Heaven's sake. LK: Yeah, it's like what the heck does that mean? LB: And then there's the whole JK Rowling thing, which has totally destroyed, for so many young people who are trans who loved the whole Harry Potter thing, that's totally gone. Just flushed away. LK: She's pretty much known as She Who Will Not Be Named now. LB: No kidding. Lost it completely. I knew somebody who had retired from a university, and he was going to just whimsically become a wand maker. And he's totally stopped it. He said, "I'm not doing that, I'm not going to be involved with that, I'm throwing all the books away." And he's a straight, cisgender man. But he's a massive ally, and he said, "How could I possibly support this kind of stuff?" And we know people, we both know people who are transgender who were so committed to Harry Potter, that any kind of dress-up would never go by where they weren't wearing their Harry Potter outfits. Now that's totally gone. And I think that the legacy of these books is over, it's absolutely over. I think people are taking them out of the library, it's amazing. Book stores (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) LK: Book sales, for instance, hard book sales have actually increased because of the pandemic. People are buying them online and getting them shipped. But Harry Potter books have not. Their increase has been relatively small compared to the larger increase in sale of books overall. LB: I can't even understand it. I mean, this is a person who was so outspokenly supportive of people who were different for so long, that it's like an alien has taken over. Her arguments are crazy, they don't make any sense at all It's so hard to understand, it's just so hard to understand. And I don't even like the term TERF because I don't think anybody who considers themselves a feminist gets to say that they're discriminatory toward anybody. I think it's a bullshit definition. It's like saying you're a patriot and then hating your country. Or you're patriotic but you support someone that thinks that it's okay to collude with the Russians to kills troops. It doesn't make any sense. LK: Yeah, I was thinking that too. LB: Well there you go. But anyway, it's interesting to bring that up about what's happening in England. And I think also in Great Britain, they did a massive, massive shutdown, where people were literally not allowed to drive their cars or leave their houses. And it worked. It totally worked. They've done a very significant job in ending the necessity of even having to wear masks. They pretty much ended the pandemic there, in a brilliant way. In a committed way. So you've been walking around, but are you limiting going out to do other stuff? Have you been going out to eat or stuff like that? What do you think about that? LK: I've been to the grocery stores, to Wegmans and Giants, Giants for my mother. I've been to CVS to pick some stuff up, but up though the driveway. When I had to pick up a prescription, I go to Hartselle's Pharmacy, (inaudible) for my hormone prescription since it's compounded I've been there. I've been to [Fred's place?] once, and two weeks ago I went and got my hair done. That's been it. LB: Were you scared when you went? We haven't been in the grocery store. We actually haven't been -- Trish is at such risk that we don't go to the grocery store. LK: It's kind of hard in a grocery store to keep six feet, frankly. They tell you to try but I mean, I'm masked all the time, of course. I watch out for somebody who may not be wearing a mask, or who likes to wear the mask with their nose hanging out, which is kind of useless, and kind of make you go around them. But I'm cautious, I don't know that I'm scared, I'm just cautious. I understand the risks, and I understand too, I just need to get out a little bit. Because it can be a little challenging, shall we say, just being in here by myself all the time. LB: It can, I agree, I agree. So you were talking about some of the queer activities you were doing through Twitter and stuff like that. I was talking to somebody about a professional conference, and he said, "No, no it's not a professional conference, it's a conference for black and white men together" which is something that I've been involved with. So have you been to any conferences that are online Zoom things that were part of the LGBT community? LK: Well conference wise, only two. A professional one with our accreditor. And I have another one of those coming up in Academy Management that I'll probably go to. And I've done a couple things with the center. We had the one session on the book review with the author on the queering of corporate America, I went to. And I went to one or two things on Renaissance with Amazon -- with Amazon, with Zoom, here. But that's it. I did one of the Broadway Zoom events, and the Pride events that was all Zoomed and online as well too, I did that. LB: Cool. Well you're working it out then. So let's see. We have a question about young people who are trapped with their parents, you know, can't be out. But I think we older people who are out every minute of every day, that's never really an issue for us. And we forget how limiting that is for youth. Have you had any students who were having that kind of issue? LK: No. But in Twitter, the feed that shows up, what's interesting is that there are some people, they're younger, they tend to be. They work, they live alone. And essentially they consider themselves to be out. They've been at home now since March, whether they're working from home or whatever. They consider themselves to be out as transgender women, for instance, in the community. And now some of them are starting to get called back to work, and there's a lot of anxiety. I've been out, I've been living full time as a woman, now I have to go back to work, how am I going to handle this? What am I going to do? LB: Oh that's interesting, yeah. LK: Some of them are working it through. And there have been some people who have -- I saw one person this morning going back to work, she said that she had come out at work a week before everything shut down. So she's been out at home, and now she's going back to work with only that week. So it's almost like reintroducing herself to all of her co-workers again from scratch. And she's been anxious about that as well. It does set that dynamic up as well for the young ones who have been out of college for instance, and now they can go home to non-supportive homes and families. That can be a real issue too though. I haven't seen any that pop up at college. LB: Well that's good. So what's the biggest frustration or the biggest challenge you've had to come into contact with? LK: It's interesting in many ways. We've been doing some work with the college in terms of response to Black Lives Matter. Frankly it kind of drives me nuts because it's so episodic. Something happens, the world goes nuts, well we have to address this, and they take this very narrow focus. And they talk about it really at institutional levels, but we're talking structural stigmatization issues and the like, and then everybody goes through it, and says okay we've done it, and then they walk away. But they haven't really dealt with the real issues. So that drives me kind of nuts. And it's not just for Black Lives Matter, it's for the LGBT community, it's for all the transgender people as well. It's this piecemeal approach to everything, instead of going out, looking at this as a whole about diversity, equity, and inclusion. And looking at what really is the key for me, and I do my research in this area, so cut me off if I'm (inaudible). Particularly I've adopted this stigmatization model, and when you look at it, the real issue is culture and organizations. And its leaders who need to change the culture if you're going to change any of the issues and dealing with bias and organizations. And we've done some work coming out of a young person, a young black woman, a PhD who does a lot of consulting work in implicit bias. (inaudible) and I talk with her too, we've done some phone calls about it. And the intersectionalities that are at play are really, really important. Black Lives Matter, you have the intersectionality who is black trans community. And it's been devastating for the black trans community in the last few months, for instance. And all that comes in the intersectionality for the whole trans community as well as the LGBT community. And my guess is, I can't support this empirically, but for older members of the trans community such as myself, we're probably fighting a bit of a PTSD when it comes down to it in dealing with the anxiety in the decisions we had to make about not coming out, coming out, not coming out, finally coming out. Even the anxiety, because we internalize the stigma, whether it's structural or an inner-personal stigma, we all expect it to happen to us at some point, that someone is going to attack us in the bathroom, in a public restroom, because we're trans and that's what happens to some trans people. We've all heard the stories about the discrimination. So it's all internalized. Black Lives Matter, for me at least, and I'm guessing for others too, it just triggers a lot of that. The concern, the anxiety, the fears and the frustrations, and to me, it also creates the challenges, how do you deal with this overall? We need to deal with the Black Lives Matters issues, the prejudice, the bias in this country for 400 years with the black community. If we do that right, we'll uplift everyone. And that's my greatest frustration, feeling or challenge right now, to deal with it. And so, kind of really, you know, some ways, academically, I was moved by stuff where I'm addressing some of this research. I did get a book chapter written and out to the editor during this time on workplace transition issues. I've been talking with nurses and classes about the stigmatization. So, I just got to get this (inaudible) get the next article published. And eventually, I want to go out and actually test that model empirically. But it's really, you know, so much is about -- it's structural, it's what people -- call [that?] systemic. But it's also the interpersonal, that implicit bias that people act on that pushes through discrimination and anti-trans behaviors. And those combine together and they feed each other in organizations and in our society. And, you know, we've got to break that chain and that's all about culture. And in organizations where I focus my work, it's leaders. And leaders have to step up to change the culture but most leaders, in my experience, don't get that, don't understand it. They think you can change policies and everything's taken care of and, nope, that's not going to do it. LB: And they also think -- they do tend -- I think what you were saying at the beginning, in terms of being reactive that, you know, something happens and then they react to it as opposed to recognizing that the atmosphere is allowing that to happen every day and that they're not always -- LK: Yeah. LB: -- taking that in consideration, no question about that. It's great you're (inaudible). LK: There was an article on NPR last evening about diversity inclusion officers in corporations. And generally, the experience there has been, well, you get a person who's your D& ; I person. And basically, you know, their tenure in organizations is relatively short. They have a tendency to, you know, come up with a report and try to follow up a year or so later and nothing's changed kind of thing. They often don't have access to the metrics they need to look, to understand what's happening with respect to diversity, equity, and inclusion. And basically, it's -- D& ; I officer is really about displaying, "See? Look at us! We're all wonderful and we care about diversity inclusion." And, again, it's not that -- one person's not going to change it. It's got to be the leaders in the organization who take this certain role. LB: Yeah. Yeah, that's so true. So, yeah, I just read a whole big article about the language that -- I just was working on that this morning, that because I'm updating a bunch of my trainings, too -- so, I'm doing a bunch in August and the -- and I'm looking at it from the lens of language and how language is constantly -- the fact that a lot of language is coded to be racist and favor white supremacy without people understanding that. And it happens so frequently in academic settings and also in general support settings, particularly for youth. So, when you talk about disenfranchised youth, it's not [that they're different?] (inaudible). LK: [I saw it, I'm?] -- LB: -- you know? So, I think that's an issue, too. So, I think we covered most of the stuff. So, in general, do you feel your mental health is pretty good during this stuff? You're doing pretty well but I can see how there's also frustrations and stuff. What's the hardest thing you've experienced so far? [I think?] -- LK: [Yeah?] (inaudible) (laughter) truthfully, the hardest thing so far has been dealing with, you know, the frustrations, the anxieties, the fears of Black Lives Matters and the intersections of that. And, you know, see what's happening and being just so totally frustrated and upset about it and not being able to really do a heck of a lot about it in a positive sense. LB: It's true. It's true. So, do you know anybody -- LK: And so it's just -- LB: -- that's -- LK: -- depressing at times. LB: Huh? What'd you say? LK: It's depressing at times, frankly. LB: It is. It's totally -- do you know anybody who has been sick or who has had any other -- anybody around you or [any that?] -- LK: Yeah, I had a grad student who was ill. LB: Oh, God. LK: Yeah. I had a grad student who was ill. But, you know, yeah, she and her husband both were, you know, had -- went to the emergency rooms, got diagnosis and all. And so, they were self-quarantined at home by themselves. But, you know, the class was an online class, so had no interaction with them except through the class. There was no personal interaction kind of thing back and forth. Otherwise, no, no, I haven't. LB: Yeah. It's interesting, 'cause -- LK: [And I think I've?] -- LB: -- when I talk to somebody who has had a lot of exposure within their family, at the beginning, the first ten people I interviewed who were all the HIV/AIDS guys were older people who were tending to -- because a lot of them were retired and stuff -- [were?] far less likely to know somebody that was at risk or who had had the illness. But since I've been interviewing the COVID folks, [was?] a much bigger or broader demographic, those folks have -- you know, the first person I interviewed said, "Yeah, eight of my family members and three of them have died." And, right, the first thing they said. And -- LK: Wow. LB: -- it's somebody in our community. And so, like, and I'm thinking, like, oh, you know, maybe I'll find a couple people and it pretty much -- everyone I've spoken to has told me about somebody who was sick. I just talked to somebody yesterday whose father was intubated for two weeks. I mean, was on the oxygen -- LK: Ouch! LB: -- for two weeks. Yeah, ouch, man, so -- and we're talking about a second wave of this and I think it's unlikely that we're going to -- LK: Yeah. LB: -- miss out on that. I think it's going to happen, and particularly, people have been so cavalier about it. So -- LK: Yeah. LB: -- we're pretty much coming to the end, so -- and I got another one of these soon after. So, I wanted to ask you if there's anything -- so, we were really talking about this and we talk about Black Lives Matter because I wanted everybody to talk about that. Is there anything else that you want to say? Because we are looking at this as something that somebody might look at 30 years from now, forty years from now. Maybe you and I won't be around, I don't know, in forty years. But if there's anything else that you would -- LK: It'd be a miracle. LB: Yeah, I think so, too. If there's (laughter) anything else that you would like to sort of say to those people, then, who might be looking at this as a research project to see -- they kind of know what's going to happen but they don't know what -- how it's happening for individuals. So, I think that that's an interesting response, to talk to somebody who is there in the future, watching this video about you or -- LK: Well, I wish they would, you know, send me a message so I would know what happens in November. I need to know if I'm going to move to Canada or not, you know? LB: Yeah. LK: (laughs) It's kind of sort of funny in a way that when I was just entering college, way back when, Vietnam War was on and people were going, some people were going to Canada and avoid the draft. Now I'm talking about going to Canada to avoid Donald Trump if he gets reelected. And God, I hope not. LB: Yeah. LK: Be really interesting to know that. Yeah, it's such -- in my heart of hearts, I'm really, really, really hoping socially this is the last gasp of the white male conservative culture in this country having power and that we can, as a society, defeat Donald Trump in November and step back, fix what has happened, and then look ahead to a more inclusive society, a more equitable society across the board, which I think has got to happen just for the country, for the future. That's really what I'm, in my heart of hearts, I want to happen at this point. And I will do my part to make sure that happens. [56:00] Get out and vote, yes, you know? LB: Yes. (laughter) LK: My government check went to political causes, to Joe Biden. It went to Susan Wild, you know? Get the Democrats in office, and -- as well as to Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center. And so, you know -- LB: Yeah, it's [too?] -- LK: -- it's really -- LB: -- exactly that -- LK: -- such an interesting time. And I think of my daughter who's a Ph.D. academic historian. And what we've talked about -- and her area's about Reconstruction, post-Civil War, historical memory and all that. And it kind of forms some of the ideas in my brain about when you ask a question like -- as you did about what's happening, what else to come and [put it in proportion?], I really think we're at -- on that point, that edge point, is something going to happen? And I really hope it falls the right way come November, you know? LB: Well, me too. I can't -- there isn't a minute that I don't think about that. And it's going to be that way for -- LK: Yeah. LB: But then, after it happens and if we're ultimately successful, we can't just go, okay, everything's fine now, you know? LK: Oh, and, yeah, that could be the big battle. LB: That is going to be -- LK: Yep. LB: -- the big battle. LK: You know, I've been working hard to think about what I want to be when I grow up. I figure I'm really only about seven years old. I mean, I came out full-time on September 3rd, 2013. So, I'm just about seven years old. Well, I have a little dog years in there. So, I'm a little older. But, I mean, so I'm still growing as a person and there's still things I think I want to get done in the world and I just haven't figured out how to do 'em yet. But I think November's going to be very important and I'm hoping there's some path for me there, too, as well, other than just retiring. (laughs) LB: Yeah, no kidding. Well, let's hope for that. Anyway, it's been great to talk to you. Thank you so much for talking to me. LK: [Yeah?]. LB: It's been -- always -- LK: You're welcome. LB: -- love to chat, I'm sure. Sorry your shirt wasn't more purple but I can see lavender in it now, so (laughter) that's the important -- LK: Okay. LB: -- but I really appreciate that. You've been great, as usual, and you look terrific, as always. LK: Thank you -- LB: And the video -- LK: -- for saying that -- LB: -- was particularly good. I mean, you know, sometimes I think the lighting is so bad on this person and you've hit on it. I think you're there. You're good at the -- LK: Well, I have my one LED light here, on, giving a little light from that side, plus I get the light from the left-hand side from outside, so -- LB: Yeah, there you go. LK: -- [total sunlight?]. LB: You're on it. Okay, so take care and just stay safe. LK: You, too. LB: And I appreciate -- LK: Thanks for inviting me to do this. LB: -- [and you're -- love it?], okay. LK: Okay, take care, bye-bye. LB: Bye-bye. END OF VIDEO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). 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Lizabeth Kleintop, July 21, 2020
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Lizabeth Kleintop talks about how the current COVID-19 pandemic is affecting her as a professor at a local college, how teaching online is progressing and what Moravian College may do in the next few semesters. She also talks about her experience as a Transgender woman and how she is communicating with other Trans people and the concerns she has regarding the institutional transphobia that is being put forth by the current presidential administration and culture.
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PH40_17
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
Date
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2020-07-21
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Copyright remains with the interview subject and their heirs.
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Title
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
An account of the resource
In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Liz Bradbury
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Ariel Torres
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_10.xml
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5.4 July 14, 2020 Ariel Torres, July 14, 2020 PH40_10 01:01:57 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Ariel Torres Liz Bradbury video/mpeg TorresAriel_20200714_video.mp4 1.0:|31(4)|52(7)|85(9)|130(11)|163(8)|194(5)|231(7)|260(14)|287(12)|320(15)|355(2)|386(13)|417(12)|446(2)|471(8)|508(4)|537(4)|570(13)|601(10)|630(14)|663(17)|698(8)|745(15)|780(9)|821(8)|868(2)|895(4)|942(13)|979(11)|1012(16)|1037(5)|1070(6)|1103(3)|1130(9)|1163(11)|1202(9)|1237(12)|1274(10)|1299(14)|1342(2)|1381(2)|1428(11)|1471(12)|1512(12)|1547(13)|1578(12)|1611(9)|1654(14)|1701(3)|1748(7)|1791(5)|1820(3)|1859(5)|1890(12)|1931(13)|1976(11)|2023(2)|2056(13)|2083(4)|2108(13)|2143(14)|2188(5) 0 https://youtu.be/3wvBkM5hPn4 YouTube video 0 Interview Introduction LB: - now -- wait, wait (laughter) one second. I’m not going to turn it off. I don’t want to get in trouble. He’ll be right back. (laughs) Oh, okay, bear with us, everyone. He’ll be right back here.
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 ; AT: I’m sorry. Look at that.
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 ; LB: Oh, that’s bling-y. That’s good. It’s beautiful. But you’re so much more handsome. I don’t want you to wear that one because I can’t -- you know it’s so hard to understand -- it’s hard to hear what people are saying when they’re wearing the mask because you can’t see their mouths. It’s really hard with Trish. You can’t wear the mask --
 ; 0 289 Working as the Pride programs manager at the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center/Pride going virtual due to pandemic LB: And so, have you been working? Has your employer closed or laid you off? And I know the answer to that. So, want to talk about where you work and what you do?
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 ; AT: Yeah, so I work at the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and I’m the Pride programs manager, which basically is a very, very, very condensed way of saying I run the festival. 0 364 Working part-time as drag queen Elektra Fearce St. James/Missing socialization due to pandemic LB: So, let’s talk a little bit about -- you have other parts of your life that also include the stuff that you do that has been really -- had a significant impact because you have another job, too.
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 ; AT: Yeah.
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 ; LB: And that’s really been -- have had a strong impact from COVID, so talk about that a little bit.
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 ; AT: Yeah, so, of course, by day, I run the Lehigh Valley Pride festival and by night, on some nights, I am Elektra Fearce St. James 0 545 Communicating with family through Facebook Messenger and Zoom LB: And so, are you socializing with people in other ways? I mean, are you using online stuff or video chats or phone or --
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 ; AT: Yeah, yeah, definitely. We’re using Facebook Messenger a lot. I have a group chat that goes on because we already did it kind of anyway, so I like to say I was a little bit trained for this before it kind of happened. 0 675 Spending time with family during the pandemic LB: And not only are you -- you have a lot of friends but you have a big family, don’t you?
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 ; AT: Yeah, my family is huge. My mother’s one of fifteen and my dad is one of seven. So, that’s twenty-two aunts and uncles. Not all of them are still living but -- and they each have plenty of children. So, I meet a new cousin every week. (laughter) 
 ; 0 756 Thoughts on Dr. Rachel Levine LB: Well, I was going to ask you about how you feel about seeing Rachel Levine, Dr. Rachel Levine, and how that is sort of a positive thing for all of us. Say a little bit more about that and our --
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 ; AT: Yeah.
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 ; LB: -- our own (inaudible)
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 ; AT: Definitely. It’s very empowering to see someone who can just -- I want to say it’s like breaking barriers, you know? 0 932 Discussion of how pandemic has affected life in general LB: So, do you think, I mean, it’s interesting that -- like, this is a question that I think people wrote before we were really in the thick of the pandemic. And really, in the grand scheme of things, we haven’t been in it that long. But this is saying how has it affected your life? And, I mean, I can’t think -- and for me and you, I don’t think -- I think it’s affected every moment of every day, you know?
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 ; AT: So, yeah, I think -- for someone to say that it hasn’t affected them, I feel like it’s -- I hate to say it but it’s somebody who’s living in denial. 0 1134 Gradually going back out to eat as Covid restrictions lessen/safely taking account of mental health and socializing with others LB: I think, so, this is asking, like, are you staying in and are you limiting going out? I mean, have you been going to the grocery store and have you been going out to eat or what do you think?
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 ; AT: I think -- so, my aunt loves the diners. I grew up with -- I always say my one aunt, she gave me a childhood because my dad was a homebody and my mom didn’t drive 0 1286 Performing drag during Covid restrictions LB: So, this says whatever queer activities have you been doing? And it’s funny that you and I do queer activities all day long every day, so --
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 ; AT: Right.
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 ; LB: -- it’s hard to find something that isn’t queer that we’re doing, so --
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 ; AT: Right, well, I mean, I did -- since we are in the green, I did perform this past Sunday at a very limited seating kind of place. I did have, like, a face shield on, so that was -- it was fun to do but it was still a little scary.
 ; 0 1464 Experience working from home LB: Now, he does something that’s drastically -- I think is very different from -- than you would normally do. But you’re getting up a lot earlier than you normally do.
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 ; AT: Yes, I am because I don’t --
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 ; LB: [All the time?]. (laughter) And also, there’s other reasons, too. Explain why that is. It’s not just because you’re home.
 ; 0 1697 Frustrations/concerns during pandemic LB: So, what’s the biggest frustration or fear you have or challenge that you’ve had during this time? I mean, are there -- that are just so frustrating for you?
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 ; AT: Honestly, other people who don’t take this seriously.
 ; 0 1780 Similarities between 1918 Spanish flu and Covid-19 pandemics LB: Yeah, (laughter) I’ve always -- I mean, I know I’ve told you before that in 1918, my grandmother died and she was thirty-two years old at the time. And my father was four and he, then, grew up without a mother and -- because in the flu epidemic of 1918, most people who got it were between the ages of twenty and forty and she was right in the middle of that time. 0 1975 Pandemic's affect on mental health LB: So, like, you always seem like such a normally even-keeled guy. (laughter) You think this is affecting your mental health?
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 ; AT: I feel like in the beginning it did because I was a little more -- I was on the worried side. 0 2100 Discussion of taking Covid risks responsibly/Taking into consideration health of others AT: And so, just something I want to draw home. If you want to take the risks, that’s fine. But just make sure you do it responsibly. Make sure you take every precaution possible.
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 ; LB: Yeah, and the likelihood of people -- I mean, it’s so easy to be frustrated at people who will say, “Well, I don’t care if I get sick.” And you’re saying, “Yeah, but you’re going to make other people sick.” 0 2215 Family who have contracted Covid-19 AT: I had a cousin who actually contracted COVID and an uncle. They’re not in the same home but my aunt -- they worked at a retirement home and my cousin does home care. And she’s one of the strongest people I know. 0 2405 Sharing positive experiences resulting from staying/working from home LB: So, what, of all the stuff that you’ve been doing, what’s the best thing that’s been happening? Is there anything -- like, some people will say, “I’m such an introvert, I really love this, I don’t have to talk to anybody.” (laughs)
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 ; AT: Well, okay, so I -- see, I do love going out but secretly, I do have a little bit of my father in me. I am a homebody. So, working from home, I think, has been great. 0 2498 Discussing anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers LB: It’s probably hard -- it’s hard to imagine how we can stop this -- I just read -- Trish just read a thing that said that if every person in the country wore a mask every single day for the next -- you know, three months, it would be gone. It’d be over.
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 ; AT: Eradicated.
 ; 0 2855 Discussion of computer security/Playing video games during the pandemic LB: It’s so funny because my sister even said some -- one of those things. Like, she said she thought that the -- and she never fussed up like this. And she said she thought the camera in her computer was watching her. And I said, “Well, is it on?” And she said, “No.” I said, “Well, come on! I mean, unless you’re downloading a bunch of really hacky programs that are -- you know, have you downloaded a lot of programs?” 0 2970 Family members who have contracted Covid-19/How the disease affected them differently LB: So, here’s the next question. Here’s the next question. Let’s see. And so, I’ve already asked you. You have people in your family that have had this.
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 ; AT: Yeah.
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 ; LB: And [your parents?] --
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 ; AT: And something I didn’t -- well, if you -- actually, something I can add, since that question just came up, my aunt and uncle, the ones who got it, who are married, my aunt tested positive but she was asymptomatic. And her husband ended up in the hospital for three days. 0 3146 Traveling to Florida during the pandemic LB: You went on a trip. You went to California-- or to Florida.
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 ; AT: I did go to Florida, yes.
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 ; LB: And what was that like? What’s it like in the airport?
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 ; AT: It was okay. I was a little nervous. I was under the assumption that the flights would be only flown at, like, certain capacity. That flight was entirely full.
 ; 0 3426 Discussing vaccinations LB: And what are we going to do? We can’t go there if -- and there’s no end in sight. It’s not going to end until there’s, like, a mandatory vaccination.
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 ; AT: Right.
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 ; LB: Because -- or until we can be vaccinated. You know, if we’re vaccinated, that means that then we don’t have to worry if they really have a successful vaccine. But it takes a while to get a good vaccine. 0 3465 Thoughts on Black Lives Matter/Attending protests during the pandemic LB: So, we’re coming to the end of this. So, let me ask you one more question, because we’re talking about -- I’m asking everybody about all the things that are happening now and a lot of other things are happening at the same time as COVID and we can’t really separate that. So, I want to talk to you about Black Lives Matter and see -- you want to talk a little bit about that and what’s happening in Allentown right now and what’s happening in the United States right now and if you want to say anything about that.
 ; 0 3678 Conclusion AT: Because I could go on for hours but this is the end of the interview, so we’re just going to leave it there.
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 ; LB: I’m thinking, yeah, you know, I would let you go on for hours but I know you have to do work. (laughs)
 ; 0 MovingImage Ariel talks about how the current COVID-19 pandemic is affecting him, his friends and his family, his work on the Pride Festival and other projects at Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center. He also talks about traveling, not being able to do his second job as a nationally known drag performer, his daily routine, and Black Lives Matter issues.
 ; Ariel Torres 2020-07-14 LIZ BRADBURY: -- now -- wait, wait (laughter) one second. I'm not going to turn it off. I don't want to get in trouble. He'll be right back. (laughs) Oh, okay, bear with us, everyone. He'll be right back here. AT: I'm sorry. Look at that. LB: Oh, that's bling-y. That's good. It's beautiful. But you're so much more handsome. I don't want you to wear that one because I can't -- you know it's so hard to understand -- it's hard to hear what people are saying when they're wearing the mask because you can't see their mouths. It's really hard with Trish. You can't wear the mask -- AT: [And it's just?] -- LB: -- you have to take the mask off. Okay, I -- AT: [You asked if -- promise?] to be at the beginning of the recording -- LB: Okay, okay. So, I want to be sure that we're pinned in here. I think you're pinned. Now you're good. Okay, and so, this is the deal. With this project, Bradbury-Sullivan LBGT Community Center at the Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community, collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury and I'm here with Ariel Torres to talk about his experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of the COVID-19 pandemic as part of the Lehigh Valley Community Archive. We are meeting on Zoom on July 14th, 2020. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start, please state your full name and spell it for me. AT: My full name is Ariel Torres and it is spelled A-R-I-E-L T-O-R-R-E-S. LB: Will you please share your birth date? AT: I was born on May 2nd of 1985. LB: Okay, and you are in -- what town are you in? You're in Bethlehem? AT: I am in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. LB: Okay. This is the consent part. So, now, we say do you consent to this interview today? AT: Yes. LB: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable formats? AT: An enthusiastic yes! LB: (laughs) Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats including films, articles, websites, presentations, and other things? AT: Si, which is yes in Spanish. LB: (laughs) Do you understand that you will have thirty days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview, identifying any parts you'd like to delete or withdraw the whole interview from the project if you choose? AT: Yes. LB: Okay. So, this is what we're -- so, now, here's a couple of things. These are some identity things. So, what's your zip code where you are? AT: I am 18018. LB: And what is your age? AT: (laughs) Do I really have to tell it? LB: You do not if you don't want to. AT: Well, I'm thirty-five -- LB: I can (inaudible) AT: -- thirty-five and proud. It's fine. LB: Thirty-five, okay. And how do you identify within the LGBT community in terms of sexual orientation, gender identity, and stuff like that? AT: I am a gay male. LB: Okay. Here are some things to think about. And so, you identify as cisgender, is that correct? AT: A cisgendered gay male, yeah -- LB: Okay. AT: -- who also does drag on the sides, so call me whatever you want with pronouns, just not late to dinner. LB: (laughs) All right. So, I have all these questions and I think I'm just going to throw these at you and you can talk as long as you want. You can say whatever you want. This is all about how COVID is affecting your life. And it is affecting your life -- and sort of affecting your life within the LGBT community and then in general. So, I know the answers to some of these but let's start out, so -- and this is also going to go into the archives so that people 30 years from now can look at this and go what was this like during this time? And then, they'll say -- AT: Yeah, they're going to say, rough, they had to do this on a computer. Oh, who does that? (laughter) Technology will be light years ahead of us by then. LB: No, I wonder how it will be. So, who is -- you're by yourself. Who's in your home with you? Do you have anybody else living with you? AT: Nope, I live alone. LB: Okay. And so, have you been working? Has your employer closed or laid you off? And I know the answer to that. So, want to talk about where you work and what you do? AT: Yeah, so I work at the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and I'm the Pride programs manager, which basically is a very, very, very condensed way of saying I run the festival. But there are so many moving parts that go into running a festival when it comes to planning, organizing, you know, all of that good stuff. And due to COVID-19, unfortunately, we had to go virtual this year. So, it's like learning how to plan an entire festival in a virtual format. So, just when you think you have it down pat, COVID hits and it shakes up my life just as much as everybody else's but just in a different way, I'm sure. LB: So, this festival's been going on for about, what, this is the 27th or 28th one? AT: Since 199-- I want to say four. LB: Ninety-four. It's '94, it's '94. AT: Ninety-four. LB: Yeah. AT: So, twenty years will be 2024 and we're in 2020. So, it's about sixteen years, yeah. My math is wrong. LB: No, that is thirty years. AT: Thirty years, yeah. LB: Yes. AT: Sorry. (laughter) LB: And -- AT: That's right. I run the festival but I don't do accounting, I'm sorry. LB: (laughs) And so, but the center has only been doing this and our center has only been open for a while and you've done this, the festival since we took it over. And how long has that been? AT: This would have been our third in person festival that we were in charge of. So, now this is our third festival but the only difference is it's virtual now instead of in person. (laughs) And so -- LB: So, let's talk a little bit about -- you have other parts of your life that also include the stuff that you do that has been really -- had a significant impact because you have another job, too. AT: Yeah. LB: And that's really been -- have had a strong impact from COVID, so talk about that a little bit. AT: Yeah, so, of course, by day, I run the Lehigh Valley Pride festival and by night, on some nights, I am Elektra Fearce St. James. I perform as an entertainer here in the Lehigh Valley and I've been doing that for about 15 years now. So, it's been quite a while. And for everybody who's out there, in case you wanted to know what I look like, I'm turning on a virtual background for you. And there I am! LB: Oh, okay, oh! AT: Little bit of leg. Again, technology is not 20 years in the future but there is Elektra Fearce St. James. So, that's me on some nights, when there's a full moon. As you can see, I look like a wolf. LB: You look great in -- AT: But, yeah, it's been quite the experience. Drag is like a steady income for me. I perform really regularly, not only locally but I travel a lot, I go out of town. And with everything being shut down, it has given me a little bit of a financial strain. Thankfully, I do have my day job, which allows me to continue and, you know, still live a good life. But, you know, that extra money is just, like, not there like it used to be. But also, just being around people -- I'm a people person, that's why I love my position at the Center. I'm in a position within my community to help others to -- if I don't know the answers to certain questions, though I run the Pride festival, I've been with the organization as an administrative manager before. So, I've been in certain positions where it's very fulfilling. Pro-fo-homo is what some people call a professional homosexual person. So, it's just -- it's hard being at home, not being able to be at the bars, you know? I enjoy a good cocktail just like many other people, not that it's necessary to have a good time but I do enjoy them. So, just being around the atmosphere of my peers, locally, and just within the state of Pennsylvania and the tri-state area, it's been quite an adjustment to just not be around people who you're used to seeing, right? So, you start to realize who you miss during pandemics. (laughs) LB: Yeah. AT: Definitely. LB: Really do. And so, are you socializing with people in other ways? I mean, are you using online stuff or video chats or phone or -- AT: Yeah, yeah, definitely. We're using Facebook Messenger a lot. I have a group chat that goes on because we already did it kind of anyway, so I like to say I was a little bit trained for this before it kind of happened. But I have some really close friends. Some live in Florida that used to live here, so we have a group chat of about, like, I think eight or nine of us sometimes. I just jump on a call randomly throughout, like, any given day. So, that really helps. Unfortunately, my grandfather passed away during this pandemic. Not from COVID but -- and, you know, that was even hard. We couldn't have -- my family's very Catholic, so there's always the viewing for about two days and then you drive to the church and then you go to the burial. We had to just go to the burial. Like, it was like leaving from home, you get to the burial site. Everybody was socially distant and even that was a challenge. They wanted to put a cap on how many people could be there, so it's definitely strange times. But it's just so many different moving parts that make it -- and things that you didn't think about before that you wouldn't even give a second thought have not become part of our day to day. So, it really has affected me in that way. But, you know, things like Facebook Messenger, like I said, and Zoom calls. Like, we had to rally behind Zoom calls with -- I say the younger generation, you know? The cousins. We did family Zoom calls for a few weeks, just to, like, have mental health check-ins and make sure that the family was doing okay in case we had to be there for each other. That way, we could be mentally prepared and tell ourselves, okay, I have to leave my house. I have to go help this person with this. They're not doing really well right now. I have to go make -- do I have my mask? That's the worst thing. You drive halfway there and then you have to turn around and say, oh, my gosh I left -- LB: Yeah! AT: -- mask at home. LB: No! AT: Because the last thing I want to do is really go try to help somebody and who knows? Nowadays you could be asymptomatic and you don't even know from just checking your vitals. So, like, you have to be careful, you know? The little things before that we wouldn't worry about have just -- you know, starting to be second nature to us, so -- LB: And not only are you -- you have a lot of friends but you have a big family, don't you? AT: Yeah, my family is huge. My mother's one of fifteen and my dad is one of seven. So, that's twenty-two aunts and uncles. Not all of them are still living but -- and they each have plenty of children. So, I meet a new cousin every week. (laughter) LB: And you haven't been able to see any of them in person for a while. Maybe they come over and wave from -- you for far away or -- AT: Well, I do have -- two of my cousins, especially, we have already given each other the rundown, we know how to be in public spaces. They know where I work, especially because we were such advocates when it comes to health, especially health disparities within the LGBT community. So, we follow Dr. Rachel Levine, like, very closely, the instructions. So, we feel comfortable enough to be around each other even though we don't live in the same home because we might as well live in the same home with as much as we see each other. So, that's been a little bit of a saving grace with visits here and there, socially distant on the porch, you know? I have my hand sanitizer always by the door. I just ran out of Lysol, so nobody's allowed to come over until I get some more. (laughter) LB: I know! AT: That's where I am now. LB: Well, I was going to ask you about how you feel about seeing Rachel Levine, Dr. Rachel Levine, and how that is sort of a positive thing for all of us. Say a little bit more about that and our -- AT: Yeah. LB: -- our own (inaudible) AT: Definitely. It's very empowering to see someone who can just -- I want to say it's like breaking barriers, you know? It's, like, not really caring what other people think. I've been in the comments section. She's been treated so terribly and disrespected so much in the comments and it takes everything in me not to just, like, fall into the bait because it's a bait and those comment threads will just go on and on and on. But to just see somebody who is living their truth and is not worried about what anybody thinks and literally is put to the test of that every single day is just -- I think that she is an amazing person and I couldn't think of anybody better to lead us during a crisis like this. And I think she's doing the best job she can possibly do. So, if you see this, thank you. (laughter) Thank you, thank you, thank you. (laughs) LB: Well, we are all really grateful for her. I mean, we -- there's so much misinformation that's going on and lack of leadership, I think, in other areas, so it's wonderful to see her and the leaders we do have. So, this question is on my list. I didn't write this but are you spending any time on queer dating or hook-up apps and have you found queer community despite --- you know, additional queer community despite these restrictions? AT: Yeah, I definitely am no stranger to, you know, Grindr or any of the other social apps that are targeted for, you know, the hi and bye is what I call it. (laughs) A lot of people use it for a hi and bye. (laughter) So, I think I -- like, yes, I am still on them. I do, I use them for conversation but I find it very scary, though, some of the messages that I do get because, I mean, there are a lot of people out there who just don't take this pandemic into consideration. And, yeah, let's just say their message starters aren't always just about conversation and I think they should be safer. So, I just -- I've become familiar with the block button because, you know, you have to take care of yourself in a time like this and sending messages that kind of will lead to a hi and bye situation right from the jump just tells me how much you really do care about yourself. So, if you don't care that much about yourself, you're not really caring about what you're going to put me through, so I'd rather not meet. So, thank you and goodbye. You don't get the hi. You just get the goodbye. (laughter) LB: That's a good one. I haven't heard that before and really looked into that now. AT:Yeah. I just made it on the fly now because it's, like, how do I talk about this? (laughter) LB: The hi and bye? AT: Yeah. LB: You just made that up? AT: Hi -- yeah. LB: You're brilliant! AT: Yes, made it up right now, right off the top of my head. LB: My gosh! (laughs) So, do you think, I mean, it's interesting that -- like, this is a question that I think people wrote before we were really in the thick of the pandemic. And really, in the grand scheme of things, we haven't been in it that long. But this is saying how has it affected your life? And, I mean, I can't think -- and for me and you, I don't think -- I think it's affected every moment of every day, you know? AT: So, yeah, I think -- for someone to say that it hasn't affected them, I feel like it's -- I hate to say it but it's somebody who's living in denial. LB: Yeah. AT: You know? You have to think about this. This is very serious. It's very -- it should impact your life in many, many ways and if you're going around and your life hasn't been impacted that much and you're not an essential worker who's just annoyed with having to put on extra protections -- I mean, those people still have to go to work every day. So, thank you to them for being on the front lines, you know, the first responders, all of that. But how can it not affect you in every single aspect? Like I said, it's -- I've seen videos of people -- this is really bringing out, like, the worst nature in people, I feel, especially with social media being present and the videos that I see of anti-maskers and just people thinking that their civil liberties are being taken away. And this is something that you can spread to someone else without even trying, without even thinking about it, just by doing your day-to-day activities. So, you know, this isn't just you protecting yourself. It's protecting those who are more susceptible to this. So, people who are more in danger of losing their lives. So, like, I look at it, like, you know, just because they have great immune systems and they think that this is all a hoax and that they'll pull through even if they get it, it's, like, what does that say about how do you care about your community and what, like -- and I don't even like to go to my mother's house. Like, she gets upset with me and I'm, like, "Mom, we're in a pandemic. No, I'm not visiting you every day. Like, that's not -- I'm not doing that." LB: Yeah. AT: Because my mom is the type that, in a week -- it's too much time for her. She says, you know, "I may die sometime soon" and she does the whole Hispanic woman guilt thing on -- (laughter) and now that COVID's here, she can be, like, "It can take me at any moment. You never know." Because she's diabetic, so she has a compromised immune system, as well, and I'm, like, "Mom, stop." (laughs) "For all I know, like, I could inadvertently bring this to you and it's because I care that you haven't seen me." So, you have to make, like, the tough choices. And it's just it's -- I think it's brought out the ugly in a lot of people and for somebody to say that it hasn't affected them on some level is just asinine. LB: Well, it's really impossible to not affect somebody because, after all, just the fact that you can't go to the grocery store without having -- noticing that there's a specific effect -- it's affecting, you know, whether we can get certain things, buy certain things. It's affected whether we can get into the grocery store without a mask. I mean, you can't go in without a mask. So, if you're -- and if you do wear the mask and you take it off or you're not wearing it, people will yell at you and they have a right to yell at you because you're really putting them at risk. So, how could you pretend that that didn't have an effect on you? Would be impossible to not do it. AT: Yeah. LB: I think, so, this is asking, like, are you staying in and are you limiting going out? I mean, have you been going to the grocery store and have you been going out to eat or what do you think? AT: I think -- so, my aunt loves the diners. I grew up with -- I always say my one aunt, she gave me a childhood because my dad was a homebody and my mom didn't drive. But my aunt, she loved going to the diners, loved traveling out of town. So, I was, like, with, I'm very -- those are the two cousins that I'm very, very close with (inaudible) so I always say she gave me, like, a real fun childhood. And so, you know, I'm like that person that, like, will be sitting at a diner with my aunt at, like, nine p.m. at night, drinking coffee before bed. (laughter) Like, that's just, like -- yeah and it's not even just, like -- it's just the repetition of it, right, because we have that bond with each other and we've changed that. So, her coming here sometimes for coffee. Like, we'll visit each other but we haven't really gone -- I think we've been to one diner since we've been in the green. And they were very good about, you know, having your mask on when you came in, the server wore the mask at all times, and then when the food came, you could take your mask off, you can eat, and we made sure that we didn't make it a point to kind of hang out in there like we kind of do and have, like, five cups of coffee or four, you know? Like, we were in and out. But we kind of needed that just to get a little bit of normalcy. But I will say, like, it's definitely -- we've been, again, to one since this all happened. But we're definitely not in a rush. We have found other ways to, like, have our coffee together -- LB: Good. AT: -- in a safer way. And I think that's what more people should kind of pay attention to if -- you know, forget normalcy. Normalcy's gone, right? LB: Yeah. AT: What can you do to help others? And for your mental health, if you have to do things, what is the safest possible way that you can do them? So, that's -- I'm trying to lead by example, even, like I said, even when my mother wants me to come over. I'm going today but then she won't see me until, like, next week or maybe even two weeks after that because you just don't know, you know? LB: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was talking to somebody who sort of takes care of her eighty-eight-year-old -- you know, her parents who are in their eighties and they were, like, "You have to come over, you have to hug us." And she said, "Okay, you can't go out and I can never go out because I don't want to be the one that kills you." AT: Right. LB: Who wants to have that over their head for the rest of their lives? AT: I know I don't. LB: No kidding. So, this says whatever queer activities have you been doing? And it's funny that you and I do queer activities all day long every day, so -- AT: Right. LB: -- it's hard to find something that isn't queer that we're doing, so -- AT: Right, well, I mean, I did -- since we are in the green, I did perform this past Sunday at a very limited seating kind of place. I did have, like, a face shield on, so that was -- it was fun to do but it was still a little scary. LB: You bet. AT: Just because -- you can't ignore this just because things seem to have gotten better. LB: Yeah. AT: Just because something's a certain way doesn't necessarily -- it is that. Never take anything at face value, you know?LB: No, nothing. AT: Take -- LB: Where were you, where -- AT: I was in York, Pennsylvania. LB: Where? AT: York, Pennsylvania. LB: Oh, York. York, yeah. AT: Yeah. There was, like, some sort of, like, hookah lounge kind of show thing where they kind of wanted to try an LGBT night there. They had just opened, which I thought -- which was kind of what helped me say, like, okay, like, I'll do it. Secretly, I thought it would be canceled because of COVID and, of course, they didn't cancel. And I'm, like, well, now I'm in a pickle -- LB: Amazing! AT: -- and I have to go. But I will say that they just opened. I think they've been open one weekend and we were that Sunday and they made sure that they included an LGBT night from the start, which -- LB: That's cool. AT: -- I thought -- really nice of them. So, I kind of -- you know, I took my risk, I took my chance. I went out there, I was just safe as possible. I performed and I just wanted to show up and kind of let them know, like, you know, we're worth having. Like, we're not going to -- we understand you're running a business but we're worth having in your establishment, so thanks for thinking of us and thanks for giving us opportunities to perform and to work during this time, and in a safe place, because they were taking temperatures at the front door, as well, and people did have their masks. I mean, they were doing, like, their hookahs and stuff but, like, you know, for the most part, everyone had, like, their masks on and temperatures were checked at the door, metal detector, all that good stuff. So, they were really impressive. LB: Were there a lot of people there? AT: I want to say there was probably about twenty to twenty-five people there, so not too many. It wasn't like a normal, like, nightclub gig where I can come into contact with maybe, like, two hundred people in one night, especially being an entertainer. They had Lysol spray ready for the money as we were, like, collecting because money's very dirty to begin with -- LB: True. AT: -- you know? And, like, to tip you. So, you know, there was Lysol ready for, like, the money and stuff like that, hand sanitizer for right when you came offstage. Like, it was fun and I think people were just happy to have that tiny bit of normalcy with a little bit of extra intertwined with it to keep them safe. LB: And when was that? You did it yesterday or -- AT: Sunday. LB: Sunday. AT: Yeah. So, I drove after the show, late at night, and then I was up bright and early, eight a.m. on Monday to help get -- or, well, now, I shouldn't say help to get to work. LB: Yeah. AT: So, I [virtual arrive?]. LB: Now, he does something that's drastically -- I think is very different from -- than you would normally do. But you're getting up a lot earlier than you normally do. AT: Yes, I am because I don't -- LB: [All the time?]. (laughter) And also, there's other reasons, too. Explain why that is. It's not just because you're home. AT: Well, I mean, I feel like being home is a big part because, like, what could -- there's only so much you can do in your home. So, I hate to fall asleep on the couch. I like to ride the wave in my bed. So, I kind of lay down -- think at nine or ten o'clock at night. So, watch TV in bed. That way, if that sleepiness comes, I can ride it to the morning. LB: Right. AT: The center is usually open from ten to six but I really enjoy getting up earlier to -- having a little bit more of the day, just seeing -- I love the sun. I love -- I've been up to Rainbow Mountain a few times, socially distant, of course, to, like, sunbathe and, like, get in the pool and stuff like that. So, I like to at least have a little bit left of my day of daytime, because I don't know if you're anything like me. When the winter comes, it's, like, so depressing because we leave and it's dark outside when we leave work. LB: Yeah, know just what you mean. AT: Yeah. LB: I walk home and then I walk home in the dark. AT: Yeah. LB: [We keep doing that?], yeah. AT: You do. LB: And even if it's just five o'clock and I don't even -- I don't usually leave -- and if I leave at six o'clock, it's always dark. So, yeah, no question. AT: So, I love, yeah, I love the sun and I love -- and, like, I just -- I don't know. I just feel like I get more accomplished getting up earlier in the morning. (laughs) LB: Yeah. AT: So, I mean, if I had it my way, I'd continue. LB: I think one of the things that we've done in the past, I mean, our center does that for a lot of reasons, I think, when -- and I was -- I have to admit, have to confess, I was the one that made that happen because Adrian wanted to be nine to five and I said, "I'm not coming in before ten." AT: Yeah. LB: And actually, I think that that's turned out to be better because we're there until six, which covers a lot of our evening programs. So, we don't have to -- a lot of people don't have to do extra stuff. We often have an evening program that's done by six o'clock. And also, I know that this is true for Adrian although he probably curses this at some level, but he often likes to have -- he has a lot of meetings before he comes into work. Doesn't do that -- now it's all different but I'm liking leav-- you know, coming, doing stuff earlier in the day, too, I think. But I don't tend to do that as much when I'm at the Center. I actually want to have time before to do stuff. AT: Right. LB: So, you know, you can have a -- AT: Well, it did used to help sometimes, like, if I had to schedule, like, a checkup, like, a doctor's appointment or something -- LB: Sure. AT: -- scheduled at eight thirty and then still be able to get to work on time. Like, yeah, that was definitely a perk -- to having that. LB: And you can have -- like, I could have -- so, since I walk to work, it takes me a while to walk to work. Takes half an hour. Can take up to half an hour. So, you know, otherwise, I'd be leaving at eight thirty and instead, I leave at nine thirty, you know? But it does -- like, I can get up and I can get things done before work. And sometimes, I don't have the energy to do it after work. That's what -- AT: Yeah. LB: -- another thing, too. AT: And I think running indoor evening programs are -- right? It's, like, a really good thing to have, too -- LB: Yeah. AT: -- because it's, like, who wants to go home for two hours and then have to come back? LB: Oh, gosh, yeah, that would be horrible. AT: The show starts at seven or eight o'clock at night, so -- LB: Right, right, starting so early and then going all the way until eight o'clock. Now that's you're doing a 12-hour day. So, it's tough. (laughter) Well, it's worked out. I think it's worked out okay but I can see why everybody's changed their hours now that we have these much more flexible hours. There's sort of that core time and then we have the flexible hours. Think that's working well for people. AT: I think so. LB: So, what's the biggest frustration or fear you have or challenge that you've had during this time? I mean, are there -- that are just so frustrating for you? AT: Honestly, other people who don't take this seriously. LB: Yeah. AT: That's my big -- LB: Everyone has said that. AT: -- especially when it's family. Yeah, that's a -- LB: [Grandma?]. AT: Yeah. I do have a brother who -- I have two brothers but they're both, you know, there's no logic behind their statements. You can just tell that they have a lot of friends who think this is a hoax. So, like, you know, they don't do their own research and they don't understand things. So, of course, they're, like, "Yeah, no protesters get it but people at the beach do. This is all a conspiracy." And I'm, like, "Yeah, well, just God forbid one of, like, one of your daughters, one of my nieces or, like, my nephews, one of your kids gets sick with this or something and then you might be singing a different tune." And I don't wish that on anybody. LB: Right, but -- AT: But it's, like, what is it going to take for certain people to, like, just take this serious? This isn't about you anymore. It's not just about the economy. It's about someone's life. And you never know how you contracting this and you spreading this can affect someone else. So, just take it seriously. LB: Yeah. AT: You don't want to wear a mask? Stay at home. LB: Yeah, (laughter) I've always -- I mean, I know I've told you before that in 1918, my grandmother died and she was thirty-two years old at the time. And my father was four and he, then, grew up without a mother and -- because in the flu epidemic of 1918, most people who got it were between the ages of twenty and forty and she was right in the middle of that time. And people would say, well, you know, that's one hundred and two years ago. How does that affect you? And I said, "Well, you think it doesn't affect me to have had a father who didn't have a mother, you know? And who grew up -- his father immediately left to -- went to South America. He was raised by his grandparents, who were quite old. You know, and it affected every minute of his life. He didn't have a mom. And that would affect me. It ultimately affected me, too. In fact, and like people -- most of my friends had two grandmothers. I didn't. I had one. And I could have -- so, that would have certainly have been a possibility and gone through that various different -- the circumstances that one has when you have two grandmothers and you have a father who has [had parents?] -- he wasn't a bad dad but who knows? And I also think now, I'm really strongly believing that she was pregnant when she died because most pregnant women who -- when they -- if pregnant women in 1918 got it, seventy-two percent of them died. AT: Oh, wow. LB: Really affected pregnant women. And other people in her family didn't have it, so I think it's likely. She was the age to have had a kid and I think she was pregnant. So, now, I'm thinking, like, okay, I didn't have, my father didn't have brothers and sisters, so I didn't have cousins, you know? How that affects -- like, I don't have very many cousins. I only have three cousins in the world. You have a million cousins in the world. Literally a million. AT: I'm still meeting them. (laughter) LB: At this very minute you may have a -- AT: There might be one being born right now, I don't even know. LB: Could be happening right now. And that's another thing, too. I think people don't even think about what could be happening to children that were born if their mother or their father had had COVID, maybe asymptomatic. We don't have any idea how that will affect people, so, [all these?]. AT: And, you know, I think, you know, I like to say I think God. But, you know, whoever's in charge up there but -- LB: Yeah. AT: -- my friend who -- she works at St. Luke's. She just had a baby a few weeks ago but she works with COVID patients day in and day out and she did it during -- throughout her full pregnancy. And thankfully, she's, you know, she's never contracted it. She was tested all the time and she's been good. So, that was a blessing. But that's what your story reminds me of and it's, like, you know, regardless if it's 102 years ago or if it's, like, now, you know, family is family and, like, stuff that happens to your grandparents can affect you, [because?] shape or form is because, you know, what happens to them happens to their children and happens to their children's children, you know? Life is tough as it is. LB: Right. AT: Less people doesn't make that equation any easier, so I totally -- I understand what you're saying there. LB: So, like, you always seem like such a normally even-keeled guy. (laughter) You think this is affecting your mental health? AT: I feel like in the beginning it did because I was a little more -- I was on the worried side. But the more, like I said, the more people I had -- were able to talk to -- like, as you know, we had our staff meetings, like, every day. So, I had human interaction at least once a day for at least an hour. I had, you know, my family time on, like, the Zoom calls. I had my -- after everything started getting a little clear -- not in the beginning but as we started to move into, like, the yellow phase where we could be, you know, socially distant, twenty-five people or less, like, in a public space -- I wasn't going to public spaces but I made sure I had my Instacart deliver -- make sure I had my eggs and my bread, my coffee, and my aunt, you know, would come over every once in a while. We would have our coffee on my porch, you know? So, I think finding like-minded individuals who really do take this pandemic seriously, who you can -- and it is a risk. And I hate to say it like that -- who you wouldn't mind risking maybe spending a little bit of time for -- LB: Yes. AT: -- has really made a difference. I couldn't imagine me being somebody who has been -- I've been single for a very, very long time and I live alone. And, yes, I have family but had -- we not been taking those risks, I think if I would have been stuck in this house with just, like, work and a PlayStation, I think I would've went a little crazy. LB: Yeah. AT: I would've been a little stir crazy. I don't like to walk anywhere. You probably would have seen me walking all around the blocks, (laughs) just taking walks with a mask on because, yeah, people -- it's important, especially for those who live alone, like, people like me -- and you have to be safe and if you're going to take a risk, just know your facts, take your precautions. And it's possible to still live in this world but not if you're going to walk around and act like this is a hoax because it's definitely not. LB: Yeah. AT: And so, just something I want to draw home. If you want to take the risks, that's fine. But just make sure you do it responsibly. Make sure you take every precaution possible. LB: Yeah, and the likelihood of people -- I mean, it's so easy to be frustrated at people who will say, "Well, I don't care if I get sick." And you're saying, "Yeah, but you're going to make other people sick." AT: Yeah, and they don't get -- LB: Yeah. AT: That's usually where the [hoax?] line comes in. "Oh, well, I'll be fine if I get sick." Well, okay, what about people you're passing in the grocery store? LB: Right. AT: You know? What about that elderly individual that, you know, had to stand next to you in line and you were playing with your phone and you didn't pay any attention and you're standing, like, really close to them? And, like, what if you, like, sneeze on them or something? LB: Yeah. AT: And now they're dead, you know? Like, I think, like, people don't understand, they don't grasp that concept. Like, they're dead. Somebody can die. Like, this isn't just, like, a regular flu. Like, yes, I know there's flu shots and stuff like that but people are dying. LB: Yeah. AT: And just because it's happening in mass amounts, don't let the charts and the numbers desensitize you into -- caring for other human life, like, that should be your number one priority -- is not only protecting yourself but protecting those that you love and the people that are around you. And even those you don't know. LB: I know. AT: Sorry, I (inaudible) LB: And including -- if you get sick, too, I mean, you're going to seek out healthcare. So, now you're putting all those healthcare workers at risk. AT: Yes, absolutely. LB: And that's a terrible thing. You know, lots of healthcare workers have gotten sick. I know healthcare workers who have been sick. And horribly sick. Just horribly sick and devastatingly sick. It's terrible stuff. AT: I had a cousin who actually contracted COVID and an uncle. They're not in the same home but my aunt -- they worked at a retirement home and my cousin does home care. And she's one of the strongest people I know. Like, if there was anybody to, like -- that I would say could be in, like, a gunfight and take, like, two bullets and just probably, like, still, like, mess everybody up and then make it to the hospital and be okay, it'd be her, you know? And I hate to use that as an analogy but I just need you to understand, like, this -- LB: Yeah. AT: -- my cousin is -- she is a woman of very strong resolve and she's just a tough one. And I got text messages from her and then she was just scared to death. She thought she was going to die because that's how sick she felt. And, yes, it affects everybody differently but her body was, like -- her joints, like, her body, everything hurt. She had a fever, you know? She could -- it was tough. It was real tough. LB: She had -- AT: And then for me to see somebody that tough feel that way, so defeated. I'm, like, oh, my God! LB: Did she have somebody to take care of her? AT: Yeah, she had -- oh, well, she lives -- Her mom, like, her, her mom live in the same place and she has a 10-year-old son. So, mom took over the son and she stayed quarantined in her room and then she just -- she wasn't allowed out. Like, they might as well have put, like, caution tape up. Like, she was not coming out of that room unless she had to bathe or -- and she even went for walks just a little bit because she said just laying there, even though everything hurt, she didn't want to get complicit in just laying there and taking it, because that's the kind of person she is. So, she would go for a little walk every day, which she said really, really helped her but -- and then, you know, as soon as she was cleared with the timeframe -- her symptoms went away. She couldn't taste or smell anything. And she loves her food, so she was really upset about that, too. (laughter) But as soon as she was all clear, they did a thorough, thorough cleaning of, like, the room and thankfully, knock on wood, my aunt and her son never got it. LB: Wow! AT: They were tested and they came out clear. So, they did something right, you know? It's a shame that she had it but it could have just as easily turned into three people having it just because she does home care. LB: No kidding. AT: Yeah. LB: Yeah, I know whole households of people that got it and I also know that -- people who got it who could not have walked. They couldn't have walked. They could barely walk to the bathroom. They had to crawl to the bathroom. AT: Yeah, it hits everybody differently, you know? LB: Yeah, it does. And a lot of people who have died who were by themselves, you know, they couldn't care for themselves. It's not like they could get up and take aspirin or, you know, get up and -- AT: And then, they're saying that there are certain aspirins that you just can't take because it makes it worse. LB: Right, right. AT: Because her headaches -- she suffered through -- her headaches, she said, were the worst at night. Her head just felt, like, huge. It was just, like, constantly pounding, yeah. LB: Oh, that's awful, awful. So, are you scared about getting it? AT: Yes. LB: Yeah. AT: Absolutely. Everyone should be. LB: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, what, of all the stuff that you've been doing, what's the best thing that's been happening? Is there anything -- like, some people will say, "I'm such an introvert, I really love this, I don't have to talk to anybody." (laughs) AT: Well, okay, so I -- see, I do love going out but secretly, I do have a little bit of my father in me. I am a homebody. So, working from home, I think, has been great. So, that's a good distraction for eight hours of my day. I like video games. Some people don't. I enjoy them a lot. It's really easy to, like, get lost in a video game. You feel like you've been playing it for, like, an hour, an hour and a half, and then you look at the clock and it's, like, two in the morning and you have to be up at eight and you're, like, oh, my God! LB: Yeah. AT: And then you're, like, I started at seven o'clock. How did it become two a.m. already? But, yeah, playing some games that I have, just making just normal stuff that I wouldn't have the time for now, like, for myself to enjoy like I do, so -- LB: Ah! AT: -- rhinestoning costumes, you know? Like, masks. (laughs) Little (inaudible) LB: You rhinestoned that yourself? AT: No, but I could. LB: Okay. (laughs) AT: But I don't want to do this. I'd rather do a costume. LB: Yeah. AT: These are the hardest, because they're so small. LB: Oh, yeah! AT: They are very, very small. LB: Cool. AT: So, yeah, there's quite a few stones on there -- LB: [So, I know?] -- AT: -- but just -- LB: -- this is great. AT: But, yeah, you know, just working on costuming, learning new music for whenever we can open back up and not be -- LB: Right. AT: -- as scared of COVID, when we know more, when there's, you know, hopefully a vaccine that we can take for this. I know some people are skeptical and they're anti-vaxxers. But I don't know (inaudible) LB: It's probably hard -- it's hard to imagine how we can stop this -- I just read -- Trish just read a thing that said that if every person in the country wore a mask every single day for the next -- you know, three months, it would be gone. It'd be over. AT: Eradicated. LB: But people won't do that. We can't have [them?] do that. So, the only other way to do it is have almost all the people have vaccines and require the vaccines because, you know, we -- that's how we got rid of polio, that's how we got rid of smallpox, it's how we got rid of most measles. You never hear measles outbreaks anymore. AT: "How dare you ask me to inconvenience myself for three months with a mask, it just" -- LB: I know! AT: -- "it's civil liberties, for crying out loud!" LB: Yeah, like -- and, you know, I have a friend who said -- AT: That was sarcasm, in case nobody caught that in the interview. But I'm just, you know, (laughter) disclaimer. (laughter) LB: Good. One person said, like, "I can't wear a mask." He said, you know, "And that it's not fair that the government makes you wear masks." And she said, "You know, the government makes you wear clothes." AT: (laughs) Yeah. LB: It's, like, really, if you think about it. AT: Oh, yeah! LB: And, in fact, people probably wearing clothes in their house! (laughs) We wouldn't even think about not wearing clothes, even if nobody was going to see us. AT: Right. LB: You get up in the morning and you put on clothes and nobody even thinks about it! AT: And you know what? I thought of, you know, over in China, especially with -- like, you see -- like, I saw it a lot in movies and I had to kind of, like, look into it a little bit. But, you know, and I never realized that, like, in certain areas, the pollution is just so bad that people wear masks to begin with anyway over there. LB: Yeah, yeah. AT: You know what I mean? So, it's just you got to -- tough! Get used to it. You got to do it. LB: Yeah, it's -- AT: You know? LB: -- not that hard. AT: It's not just about you anymore. It's about us. LB: Not really hard. It is like one of the least not hard things you can do. I mean, it's not like saying to people, okay, everybody has to lose twenty pounds, (laughs) you know, or everybody has to, you know, go to college and finish it and pay for it themselves, you know? Nobody's saying that, you know? So, it's so amazing to me that people are so reticent about it. And part of it's political, too. AT: Of course. LB: You know? AT: My favorite are the people who say, "Well, you know, I read online that if I wear the mask, the C02 levels, [that just?] they're really bad for me." And I'm, like, "Okay, so what do you say to the doctors and the nurses who have to wear this sometimes for ten, twelve hour shifts?" LB: Yeah, yeah. AT: "They do this daily, sometimes for weeks at a time without a day off, especially without a day off now because people like you won't wear the mask. How do you think they feel?" LB: That's right, that's right. AT: Oh, gosh, and then they always say -- same people usually post, like, "Oh, I went -- my friend went to the doctor. My friend, like, John went to the doctor and they put their mask on and they put the little thing on and then their CO2 levels, like, skyrocketed and then, like, their blood pressure went up." And it's funny because it's the same exact story but the name always changes. It was John, it was Mary, (laughter) [Sue?]. But everything else is the same except for the name. And I'm, like, yeah, your friend, I'm sure. LB: Yeah, I got to tell you that Trish, we went to -- she had to have, like, a consultation with a specialist doctor today and she -- it was just a check thing and she'd had some tests and she had some lung stuff and they wanted to see how serious it was. And it turned out that it's pretty good. Everything is pretty good. But they wanted to check to be sure that she has enough oxygen in her blood because she's older and stuff like that. So, they make her -- you know, we're both wearing double masks because we're so paranoid. And the doctor was, too. He was wearing two masks. And they're very, very careful there, you know? They test you outside and you can't even get into the building. And then -- AT: The 10 minutes before, right? LB: Yeah, and they -- and, like, I didn't touch the doorknob. I had, like, a Kleenex that I opened the doorknob -- and then, we -- and I threw it away on the way out. And then, they make you wash your -- you know, put stuff on your hands and they take your temperature right away again. And then, they come in and they said -- we went into the room and then they said to Trish she had to walk up and down the hall, this was a test, with one of those things on her finger. She's seventy-five years old, you know, and they were concerned that the number -- meaning that her oxygen level in her blood would go down. They didn't say anything about the mask. And they said, "If it goes below eighty-eight, then we have to try a different thing." And so, she started out at ninety-seven, she's wearing the mask, she walks up and down for six minutes as fast as she can go. And it's at ninety-seven when she starts and when she's done it's at ninety-seven. And she's wearing the mask! (laughter) So, hello? AT: [So, take it to?] John, Mary, Sue, David, whoever your friend's name was (laughter) (inaudible) pasted that into. LB: Yeah. AT: Yeah. LB: So it didn't have anything -- it didn't influence that at all. So, I actually saw this happen. It didn't make her CO2 levels go up higher in her blood, it didn't do anything. And they were specifically testing for that, so -- AT: They're, like, "Oh, you're breathing it back in!" I'm, like, "Well, does your mask fill up like a balloon where the air stays in it? (laughter) Or does it actually escape through the sides? I'm asking for a friend. [That's why I'm here?]." LB: Have you been wearing a plastic bag over your head? (laughs) Stop wearing the -- you know, don't -- AT: [It's like I'm?] -- LB: -- [go to a cheap?] -- AT: -- I have a -- LB: -- plastic bag. (laughs) AT: I think it sounds good initially in some people's minds but then, like, they never replay it back. And it's, like, do you hear yourself -- AUTOMATED VOICE: It's three o'clock. AT: -- and hear what you're saying, like -- oh, it's three -- sorry, that was my computer. LB: That's okay, that's okay. AT: But -- LB: It's so funny because my sister even said some -- one of those things. Like, she said she thought that the -- and she never fussed up like this. And she said she thought the camera in her computer was watching her. And I said, "Well, is it on?" And she said, "No." I said, "Well, come on! I mean, unless you're downloading a bunch of really hacky programs that are -- you know, have you downloaded a lot of programs?" I said, "This is exactly the kind" -- and I said, "Plus, if you have downloaded" -- she said, "So, I'm going to put a piece of tape over it." I said, "Well, you won't be able to do the Zoom then." (laughs) Well -- AT: Yeah, well, I mean, I know some people, they take, like, a clip and they'll cover their camera and then -- LB: I know -- AT: -- when they're done, they'll take the clip out when they're ready to -- LB: I know that they'll do that but the only way that that can happen is that if you have a lot of mal-- like, hacked stuff in your computer. Well, you shouldn't be ignoring that because there's a lot of other stuff that they can get out of your computer that's more than just the picture of you. AT: Yeah. LB: Like, every one of -- you know, your -- all sorts of your accounts and stuff like that. And so, that -- it's kind of like saying, well, I'm going to lock the gate but I'm going to leave the front door open, you know? That kind of stuff, so -- AT: Well, mine turns green when it's on, so I -- LB: Yeah, mine's on, you know? I -- AT: -- can see when it's active. LB: Right. And, yeah, but anyway -- and I'm sure that there are even possibilities of malware that can turn the light off, because apparently they can -- but you have to be doing things that make that happen. AT: Right. LB: I think people who play a lot of games and they're downloading games and different stuff like that, there's a potential for that because you are often -- AT: [I'm off on?] the PlayStation. I'm not playing games on my -- LB: That's right. If they're doing it with their computer, it's different than -- what's your game that you've been playing that's your -- AT: It's very violent. I don't know if I want to tell you. LB: Okay, then don't tell. AT: It's Mortal Kombat. LB: Okay, yeah. AT: Yeah. LB: It's not -- I don't know. AT: It's a very violent game but I -- I don't know. LB: (laughs) Well -- AT: Next question. (laughter) LB: So, here's the next question. Here's the next question. Let's see. And so, I've already asked you. You have people in your family that have had this. AT: Yeah. LB: And [your parents?] -- AT: And something I didn't -- well, if you -- actually, something I can add, since that question just came up, my aunt and uncle, the ones who got it, who are married, my aunt tested positive but she was asymptomatic. And her husband ended up in the hospital for three days. LB: Oh, my gosh, yeah. AT: On a respirator. LB: Yeah. AT: And he's back home and he's okay now but it was touch and go for a minute. And, like I said, they both work in a retirement home, so -- I think he worked in the kitchen and she worked on the floors, like, helping patients. And she was home, fine, and they were, like, "Well, you got to get tested." She's, like, "No, no, no, I feel fine." And they were, like, "No, honey, it doesn't work that way." LB: No kidding! AT: "You could have it." And then she was, like, "Oh, oh, okay." They did the test and, boom, positive. LB: Especially if she's working in a care home. She could wipe out everybody there. AT: Yep. So, she stayed at home, she quarantined, now she's fine. They're both back to work and they're both a lot more careful. (laughs) LB: Well, I wonder if they have antibodies, you know? Some people say that people asymptomatic don't build up a lot of antibodies. But he might have and that could actually make him -- AT: Might have -- LB: -- safer. AT: My cousin, her doctor said that to her. But I hear, like, that's something that a lot of doctors are iffy about. Some will say it without hesitation and the other ones will just say, "Well, we don't know enough about this for that to be true or not yet." Or, you know, so I think it's just, like, a matter of opinion. But I would think, like, with anything, once your body fights something off, it's no stranger to it the second time around, you know? My friend has -- rents out -- Florida, like, of his home. And one of the people who stayed there had COVID and he tested positive. He had to quarantine but then when he came for his follow-up test, he tested positive again. LB: Oh, wow. AT: And the doctor told him it's, like, "What do you wear, like, what are you doing?" He wears -- like, this guy has a fitted hat, so he -- even at home, while he was sick, this guy had the fitted hat on and he's thinking, like, oh, this will help me sweat everything out. Well, he never washed the hat correctly afterwards so, like, all that, like, sweat and stuff, he was just re-infecting himself every day with, like, the sweat from his cap. So, it was weird, yeah. LB: Yeah. AT: And, you know, of course, me, I don't wear hats so I'm, like, why'd you have a hat in the house? Like, (laughter) are you that into fashion that you were sick, nobody was going to see you, and you've been -- like, you're so used to having a hat that you had to put it on, like, while you were home? Like, I don't know, it's weird. LB: Well, it sort of makes you wonder about the whole level of hygiene, too -- AT: Yeah, yeah. LB: -- happening while he was there. You went on a trip. You went to California-- or to Florida. AT: I did go to Florida, yes. LB: And what was that like? What's it like in the airport? AT: It was okay. I was a little nervous. I was under the assumption that the flights would be only flown at, like, certain capacity. That flight was entirely full. LB: Whoa! AT: The lady next to me was not wearing a mask and, at that time, it wasn't mandatory. LB: Oh, gracious. AT: So, the flight attendants could ask you to put your mask on but they weren't enforcers so they couldn't force you to wear your mask at that time because it wasn't like it is now, even though it should have been. LB: Yeah. AT: There should have been -- I think we could all agree that this should've been handled in a better way back in January and February. But, you know, it was a hoax. But anyway, I digress. So, it was scary to me because not only was the plane full, the person next to me didn't have a mask on, and she insisted that she talk to me almost the entire flight. LB: Oh, gosh, oh! AT: And, you know, I'm a nice person so I'm just, oh, my God, this lady's going to get me sick, you know? And then, my nerves were wrecked, so I knew that the luggage wouldn't come out right away. It never comes -- like, there's no way you beat -- like, your luggage beats you to the carousel when you get off a plane. No matter how long it takes to get off that plane, like, your luggage just takes -- it feels like it takes forever. So, I went outside when I got there, just to kind of, like, be away from everybody and to keep an eye on the train. And these two women came out and they asked for a lighter because they wanted to have a cigarette. And so, they started talking and she, the one lady, goes, "Oh, I'm so happy to be here." And I said, "Oh, do you have family here?" And she says, "No, I -- these roots are terrible. I came down here because this is one of the only places that, like, they're doing hair." She went down there -- she took a whole flight, full of people, to get her hair done. LB: Oh, my goodness. AT: And then, the other lady, who she doesn't know, says, "Oh, my gosh, same! Only I came for a pedi." LB: Oh, my gosh! AT: And -- LB: Oh, my -- AT: -- there I stand. And I'm, like, just, good for you. LB: Holy crap. AT: Good for you, you know? Yeah, so I got my luggage and I got in my rental car and I left. (laughs) LB: Oh my gosh. AT: Yeah. LB: (inaudible) AT: It was -- down there, I feel like it was very willy-nilly. People were acting like it wasn't a thing. LB: Yeah. AT: They had, like, outdoor seating and stuff like that but it's just so hot in Florida that they weren't -- and they had the set-up. Let's say they were dressed for the part but not everybody was onstage. LB: Okay, yeah. AT: You know? LB: Yeah. AT: Stores were open, people were still shopping in stores. Like, Burlington was open and, you know, like, all that stuff. LB: But they had fifteen thousand new cases yesterday in Florida. AT: In one day? LB: In one day. I saw the thing and I thought that was how many cases they had in the state now for everything, because they had had a pretty small number. Yeah, they had, like, four thousand, something like that. And I'm, like, wow, fifteen thousand. And then, it says for today. AT: Yeah. LB: Was one day! They have five hundred thousand cases. They have half a million cases in Florida and they're still acting like it's not -- you know, their governor and everything [is a?] -- AT: They opened the bars for, like, one weekend. I think the weekend after I left, they were reopening, like, bars and that lasted, like, one weekend because they -- LB: Yeah. AT: -- like, you know, cases -- LB: And it -- AT: -- just started running rampant and people are, like, "Oh, well it was only a week ago." And it's, like, yeah, well, these people had it two weeks ago. LB: Right. AT: Like, (inaudible) LB: The hospitals are full there. And then, the governor is saying they're not and the people who are the heads of the hospitals saying, "Yes, they are! We don't have any more beds!" Come on, you know? People are going to die from this. It's crazy. AT: How frustrating must it be to be a healthcare professional -- LB: Yeah. AT: -- in this field right now. And you give the hardcore facts and you give the numbers and you give the data but somebody at the top just spins it, you know? LB: Right. AT: Like, you do everything, like, and you know what you're supposed to be doing. You're very well educated. You know what this is doing to people. You know how to get in front of it by being safe, at least, and they turn it into this, like, just political thing just so that people can not worry about it so that they continue to shop and so our economy stays intact. Like, I just don't get it. LB: Well, it's not a very attractive thing to see the kinds of cases they're having in Florida. And I think in the long run, it's going to destroy -- I mean, we can't -- Trish and I are talking about not being able to go back there for years. AT: I know. LB: And what are we going to do? We can't go there if -- and there's no end in sight. It's not going to end until there's, like, a mandatory vaccination. LB: Right. AT: Because -- or until we can be vaccinated. You know, if we're vaccinated, that means that then we don't have to worry if they really have a successful vaccine. But it takes a while to get a good vaccine. Course, the flip side of that -- that every single epidemiologist in the world is working on this. So, it's not quite like AIDS where nobody worked at it at all for the first three years that it was even -- existed. So, we're coming to the end of this. So, let me ask you one more question, because we're talking about -- I'm asking everybody about all the things that are happening now and a lot of other things are happening at the same time as COVID and we can't really separate that. So, I want to talk to you about Black Lives Matter and see -- you want to talk a little bit about that and what's happening in Allentown right now and what's happening in the United States right now and if you want to say anything about that. AT: Yeah, I definitely -- I know, in Allentown, a friend of mine who I'm very, very proud of, Justin Parker, has been leading efforts and protests. I have been to -- I did go to one protest but because of social distancing, I've been trying to stay a little bit away. I feel like I've already taken, like, a lot of risks when it comes to seeing family and traveling and doing -- like, I just did that show. So, it's, like, I don't feel that it would be responsible of me to actually be there unless, like, I actually had to be there. But please make no mistake, I am in full support of this movement. I'm very, very proud of my friend. And I've had quite the entanglement with some friends' parents over this online, you know? Public battles with them, just trying to explain to them the simplicity of why -- while, although you believe all life matters to be true, that you saying this at this moment in time is wrong. LB: Yeah. AT: So, that's been, like, arguing with a wall. But I don't like to troll people too much because I feel like to change someone's mind sometimes is not the easiest thing. So, it needs to come in the right form. So, random people, I don't entangle myself with too much. But when it's somebody I care about and somebody that, like, was an influence in my life and I see them kind of going in that direction, I kind of feel a little more inclined to, like, speak up about it. LB: Yeah. AT: People are hardheaded, you know? And I think the more of us who just band together and make ourselves known that we stand in solidarity and we support the protests, even if we help behind the scenes with organizing and, like, even if you can't make the protest, dropping off some water, dropping off -- you know, donating to the right people to make sure that there are certain things -- I believe that one of them, they were able to raise some -- a little bit of money, enough to, like, even feed some of the kids with, like, pizza and stuff that was, like, there -- safely, of course, everybody wearing, like, the proper stuff. But -- LB: Sure. AT: -- there are so many ways to support the movement and I, for one, am one of them. So, I hope everyone wakes up and they realize that this is just as dangerous as a global pandemic. If not a -- LB: Yeah, it's true. AT: -- United States pandemic, especially -- as COVID is. It's just as dangerous, to me, because stupidity is contagious. LB: Yeah. AT: I'll just say it like that. I mean, it's the end of the interview at this point. Let's skip the pleasantries. But, yeah, to close, I am very, very proud of my friend and I am a supporter of Black Lives Matter and I think we need to take it just as seriously as COVID-19. And the sooner people band together and people can start agreeing on what needs to be done and being comfortable with uncomfortable conversations -- is the only way that we're going to see any progress in either front. LB: Yeah, yeah, okay. AT: Because I could go on for hours but this is the end of the interview, so we're just going to leave it there. LB: I'm thinking, yeah, you know, I would let you go on for hours but I know you have to do work. (laughs) AT: I do! (laughs) LB: Yeah, and I don't want to be the one who's making you not do that stuff. So, I'm going to turn this off. I want to just thank you very, very much for doing this. It's been terrific. You're so animated, you're fun, and I loved getting to spend an hour talking to you because I don't -- AT: Yeah. LB: -- get as much time to talk to you now -- AT: I know! LB: -- and not having meetings every day and stuff. So, it's so fun to see you. AT: [Good to see you too?]. LB: And I'm going to turn off the recording now. We'll talk -- END OF AUDIO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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01:01:57
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Ariel Torres, July 14, 2020
Description
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Ariel talks about how the current COVID-19 pandemic is affecting him, his friends and his family, his work on the Pride Festival and other projects at Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center. He also talks about traveling, not being able to do his second job as a nationally known drag performer, his daily routine, and Black Lives Matter issues.
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PH40_10
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
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2020-07-14
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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001804ed54fce6ab489e330351179e10
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
An account of the resource
In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Kristen Leipert
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Gabby Hochfeld
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_03.xml
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5.4 July 29, 2020 Gabby Hochfeld, July 29, 2020 PH40_03 00:48:24 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Gabby Hochfeld Kristen Leipert video/mpeg HochfeldGabby_20200729_video.mp4 1.0:|19(8)|48(14)|73(12)|92(17)|111(7)|136(14)|159(15)|186(6)|205(15)|228(7)|251(6)|274(4)|293(11)|314(10)|335(13)|356(14)|381(10)|404(12)|429(11)|448(7)|473(14)|494(7)|517(3)|532(20)|557(13)|582(5)|603(6)|624(12)|645(5)|672(4)|689(10)|712(13)|735(9)|756(2)|779(5)|798(14)|817(2)|836(13)|857(3)|878(9)|903(12)|924(6)|947(7)|970(15)|995(9)|1018(7)|1039(12)|1082(7)|1099(5) 0 https://youtu.be/agof1WtrGxk YouTube video 0 Interview Introduction KRISTEN LEIPERT: My name is Kristen Leipert, and I am here with Gabby Hochfield to talk about her experience in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of the COVID-19 pandemic, as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive. Our project has funding from the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, and we are meeting on Zoom on July 29th, 2020. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start, can you please state your full name and spell it for me?
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 ; GABBY HOCHFELD: Like legal first name and everything? Okay. Gabrielle Sarah Hochfield. G-A-B-R-I-E-L-L-E. Sarah, S-A-R-A-H. Hochfield, H-O-C-H-F-E-L-D. (laughs)
 ; 0 156 TRIGGER WARNING: Pandemic affecting work life, family life, and mental health GH: Okay. I’ll start with work, because I think that the pandemic quarantine situation started out affecting work, which in turn affected my family life. So, we moved at Bradbury-Sullivan to remote work, and before I lived an hour away from where I worked. I lived in the Poconos, in Monroe County. And I lived with my mom and my sister and my brother. And I barely saw them because I was constantly traveling for work. My job forced me to go to all of southeastern PA, minus Philly. So I’d very often have to drive to like Westchester. 0 470 Working as Bradbury-Sullivan Center's Southeastern Pennsylvania Health Outreach Coordinator during the pandemic GH: So I wasn’t really scared to lose my job, but I was like, how is this going to work? But mainly just telling gay people, stop smoking, stop vaping, please, thank you. Because it hurts us all. 
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 ; KL: Yeah. And have you been doing any of that work over Zoom? I mean, outreach with people.
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 ; GH: Yeah. So, stuff that I've been doing that was able to stay the same pretty much was worksite policy implementation. 0 634 Living with roommates/More on mental health GH: Yeah. I do have two roommates who are also Lehigh students. I’m not a Lehigh student, but they’re Lehigh students that are international students that were able to stay. I don’t really talk to them too much. We had a couple board game nights, but it kind of just was like, eh, we don’t really have a lot in common, okay. 
 ; 0 765 Realizations caused by the pandemic GH: There’s definitely some upsides. Before I was travelling way, way too much. I felt like I was a rocket ship and I didn’t have time to think about anything I was doing. I was just doing, doing, doing. And I feel like now I can kind of take a step back and sort of reflect on, again, even though my family situation was bad, I realized that I was not being respected and it made me realize what standard I set for the people in my life and I don’t. 0 1136 Interviewing in solidarity with domestic abuse survivors/Shaving head during pandemic GH: [...] But I just feel like, I hope that people that are going through domestic abuse situations come forward about this stuff. Because I feel like a lot of people feel very stuck, especially kids, during this time. I feel so bad for little kiddies that just are in a really, really abusive household situation. 0 1297 Identifying as queer/Thoughts on dating during the pandemic GH: [...] But I don’t know ; it’s also kind of awkward because I had a successful date with somebody that I knew this past weekend, and we hugged, but I was like, I guess I need to be serious or at least make sure that I want to be involved with this person because now we might be spreading germs, so that’s kind of similar to how -- not at all, well, I don’t know. It’s similar to HIV in that way. 0 1580 Thoughts on school openings GH: Yeah, it’s just not well thought out. What happens if one of the students gets COVID? What happens if the teacher gets COVID? I feel like they’re just like, "Well, we have to do this because if we don’t, then we lose money or we lose this.” And also obviously school is really important to continue and social -- homeschooled kids are very obvious to the -- you know who those are, versus a public school kid or whatever. But I mean, it’ll be fine. If we’re all homeschooled, then that’s the new norm. 0 1765 Thoughts on pandemic quarantine GH: It’s just so strange that we couldn’t -- if the answer truly was stay put for two weeks, I guess we can’t do that because there’s people that literally think this is a hoax, but I don’t know. Martial law is not -- if I was the president or dictator at this point, I would be like, “Okay, martial law. Two weeks. Get your groceries. You have a week to get your groceries and stuff, and then do not leave your property.”
 ; 0 1869 Randonauting during the pandemic GH: [...] But I need to be more active. I’ve been doing this thing called Randonauting, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of it.
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 ; KL: No, I don’t know what that is.
 ; 
 ; GH: It’s an app where they randomly generate a point on a map, given a parameter, and you’re supposed to “manifest” -- I don’t really like the idea of manifesting because I think it’s a little bit a crock of bullshit, because just because you think good things doesn’t mean good things will happen to you. 0 2040 Spending pandemic quarantine in a safe/creative way GH: I feel like a lot of people -- not me, because I don’t like alcohol that much -- but I feel like a lot of people are concerning me with their alcohol consumption. Like, I’ll call them and they’ll be like, “Oh yeah, I’m just drinking.” And like, again? 0 2189 Thoughts on Black Lives Matter/Thoughts on activism GH: [...] I’ve been very passionate about showing up and helping as much as I can. Sometimes it just conflicts with my schedule, but I recently went to the -- I don’t know if you heard about Palmerton’s protest a couple weeks ago. It’s a town over from where I used to live, and my good friends were the organizers. And it went very poorly. 
 ; 0 2713 Conclusion GH: Yup. Thank you for doing this. It’s really cool. I’m excited to see what the product of it is, and yeah. I think this is going to be -- it’s cool to be part of a history thing.
 ; 
 ; KL: Yeah, I mean thank you so much for your time. 
 ; 
 ; GH: Absolutely.
 ; 0 MovingImage Gabby Hochfeld discusses her life experiences during the COVID-19 pandemic including the ways in which it has effected her mental health, work life, and social interactions. Gabby Hochfeld2020-07-29 KRISTEN LEIPERT: Okay, we are now recording. Uh-oh, I'm going to do Liz's trick of also recording audio on my phone if I can find it. Nope, not that. Not this. And okay, great. Okay. My name is Kristen Leipert, and I am here with Gabby Hochfield to talk about her experience in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of the COVID-19 pandemic, as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive. Our project has funding from the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, and we are meeting on Zoom on July 29th, 2020. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start, can you please state your full name and spell it for me? GABBY HOCHFELD: Like legal first name and everything? Okay. Gabrielle Sarah Hochfield. G-A-B-R-I-E-L-L-E. Sarah, S-A-R-A-H. Hochfield, H-O-C-H-F-E-L-D. (laughs) KL: Thank you. Will you please share your birthdate? GH: My birthday? KL: Mm-hmm, birthdate. GH: June 25th, 1997. KL: Oh, happy a little bit after your birthday. Okay, so this is the consent portion. So you just need to answer these questions. Do you consent to this interview today? GH: I do, yes. KL: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable format? GH: Yes. KL: Do you consent to the LGBT archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats including films, articles, websites, presentations, and other formats? GH: Yes. KL: Do you understand that you will have thirty days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview, identify any parts you would like to delete, and or withdraw our interview from the project? GH: Yes. KL: Okay. This project has been approved by Muhlenberg College's institutional review board, and if you have any questions I can give you the email address of the person you can contact to ask questions to. So, how has the COVID-19 pandemic affected your life? And this could be your work life, personal life, social life, all the things. Anything. Go for it. GH: Okay. I'll start with work, because I think that the pandemic quarantine situation started out affecting work, which in turn affected my family life. So, we moved at Bradbury-Sullivan to remote work, and before I lived an hour away from where I worked. I lived in the Poconos, in Monroe County. And I lived with my mom and my sister and my brother. And I barely saw them because I was constantly traveling for work. My job forced me to go to all of southeastern PA, minus Philly. So I'd very often have to drive to like Westchester. Like we'd go to work, then go to Westchester, then come back to work, and then go home. So lots of driving, and when the quarantine happened, there was no out-of-county travelling supposed to be happening, so I had to stay in Monroe County. So I was constantly around my family because of this. And my little brother likes to game, and internet was really bad so I was blamed for a lot of it because I had a lot of Zoom meetings instead of in-person meetings, and it created a lot of tension. And something that I think a lot of people talk about is how this quarantine, this pandemic really exposes all the problems that already exist just even more. And my father is an actual diagnosable narcissist, and my counselor likes to say that having a relationship with a narcissist is a relationship of inevitable harm. And when you have a family dynamic underneath a narcissist, there's trauma bondage relationships. There's like all this psychological craziness, and it just came out. And I'm the only one in my family that's currently going to counselling. I've been going for like four years. I've had a couple different counselors, because moving and stuff like that. But this was the first time I've been counselled and realized there's a lot of stuff that I needed to figure out. And this quarantine really kind of pushed it to the forefront and kind of felt like I was scapegoated a bit. And I had to end up living with a friend for a little bit, which was really stressful because that took a while. Because I was afraid to go out of the house, really. So for three months I felt like my mental health was so bad. I don't know how, whatever, as long as my name is anonymous, I guess, but I did have suicidal thoughts during quarantine, and that's when I realized I really needed to leave my situation. And I was trying to do my part in the community by staying put and keeping to myself, but I couldn't. So I had to leave. And then I found an apartment where I currently am at, and it's a sublease from a Lehigh student, which wouldn't exist unless all the international students didn't have to go back home. So the person I'm subleasing from is from Vietnam, and they had to go back and they can't come back until January. So very fortunate situation for me, but not so much for them. So yeah, it affected my life in every way possible. Some ways it's a blessing in disguise, because it made me realize that a lot of my insecurities come from how I'm treated, not how I perceive myself. We don't come out of the womb and immediately start hating ourselves. I don't think that makes any sense, so yeah I just think that everyone's mental health seems like through the roof bad right now. And it just made mine all the much more worse, but also forced me to make me more serious about it in general. And work has been good, though. I mean, very supported through work, but that's not something I can say for everybody. Most of my close friends, they've been laid off more than once because they're laid off initially then they were back, and then they just got laid off again, or they don't have good COVID policies. One of my friends works for the zoo, and she feels like it's not really safe to work there because of the people that come in and they don't really wear masks and stuff. So I'm very, very thankful for where I work, and them taking this seriously. And even making a committee to figure out what the best way to reopen is. So yeah, I don't know if that was too much, but yeah. KL: No, that's great. So, when you talk about work, I know where you work, but would you like to say what you do there? GH: Yeah. So my job title's another mouthful. My name's a mouthful and this is a mouthful. But I'm the Southeastern Pennsylvania Health Outreach Coordinator, which most of my job has to do with tobacco prevention and education, because it's the number one health disparity in the LGBT community, fun fact. And we had to take the name tobacco out of my job title because a lot of people don't like that word, for some reason, especially schools. So it's easier for me to get into schools and educate LGBT clubs, like GSAs and stuff like that. I also used to do bar outreach before the quarantine. I would go and bring goodie bags of tobacco prevention information and I'd hand them out to people at bars. That's not happening anymore. Pretty much my whole position had to change. I am grant funded by basically, inadvertently or indirectly, the Department of Health. So I wasn't really scared to lose my job, but I was like, how is this going to work? But mainly just telling gay people, stop smoking, stop vaping, please, thank you. Because it hurts us all. KL: Yeah. And have you been doing any of that work over Zoom? I mean, outreach with people. GH: Yeah. So, stuff that I've been doing that was able to stay the same pretty much was worksite policy implementation. We're trying to get a bunch of LGBT-run, owned, or allied businesses to update or have a new tobacco policy. A lot of them are smoke-free policies, which don't include things that are still bad for their employees. Or they might not even include vaping, which is more common for younger people, I guess, nowadays. So, that was able to stay. Because it could just be done over email or phone call, and then we promote them on our social media. I used to do -- right now it's the summer, so I'm not working at schools really. But we would do after school club stuff over Zoom. Yeah, it's been kind of slow, honestly, but still just doing what I can. Most of it is social media and Zoom-based though. KL: Good. So, right now you are living in Bethlehem? I'm only assuming Bethlehem. GH: Yeah, I live in Bethlehem. I'm on south side, walking distance to Tally Ho's. (laughs) KL: Are you alone right now? GH: Yeah. I do have two roommates who are also Lehigh students. I'm not a Lehigh student, but they're Lehigh students that are international students that were able to stay. I don't really talk to them too much. We had a couple board game nights, but it kind of just was like, eh, we don't really have a lot in common, okay. KL: Well, at least you get some people time. I guess. I don't know. GH: It feels like I'm alone, which sucks. But I am like that friend that will give a phone call to my friends when I'm bored so I still keep in touch and I try not to feel alone even though it is lonely. But yeah. Again, mental health terrible for everybody. So at least if I'm feeling alone, I'm feeling alone in solidarity with everybody. KL: Oh my God. So you've mentioned mental health. So you're making sure you're doing well. GH: I'm okay now. I [shouldn't?] have talked about that. I'm okay. Just, when I was at my worst, that was like a wakeup call to me because I was like, I've never let that way and that's not okay. And if I was somebody else -- I've had a friend from high school who constantly was like, not good, and it was a worry all the time about whether they were going to be alive or not. So I was trying to think of myself as my best friend. What would I do if I heard this from my friend? And I was like, I've got to make sure I'm okay. So I'm good. I wasn't good, but now I am. KL: That's great. So has there been anything that's like a positive outcome of this, or things that keep you occupied, how you're making yourself -- I was going to say happy. Sane? (laughs) Satisfied? I don't know. At a calm level. GH: There's definitely some upsides. Before I was travelling way, way too much. I felt like I was a rocket ship and I didn't have time to think about anything I was doing. I was just doing, doing, doing. And I feel like now I can kind of take a step back and sort of reflect on, again, even though my family situation was bad, I realized that I was not being respected and it made me realize what standard I set for the people in my life and I don't. So in that way it was good. I also learned about meditating and stuff, and I think that's really important. I'm into astrology and I read cards, and I like crystals, so I'm still like, COVID's a real thing. Science is real. And my stuff is probably BS, but it's really fun because it's cathartic. And I also feel like I'm able to read for joy more. I feel like I'm not wasting a lot of gas anymore. I think that having a more calm life is really, really good for me. And I think for a lot of people, who have been just -- I don't know, we all live under capitalism, and capitalism makes us feel like we need to constantly be doing and constantly be working. And everyone asks, "What's your dream job?" Why is that the thing that we need to dream about? Can't we dream about the relationships we have and not necessarily romance, but just what is actually important at the end of the day is not what job we have. Unless you make it important and for me it is important. But it's not because I'm making money. It's not because of any of those reasons. I think that we're kind of learning how the world works in a way that treats humans better. But again, this isn't something that's sustainable for everyone. If you were working three jobs before, and you were like a waitress and you have kids and your rent is too much, that's not something that really works for everybody. So I'm definitely in a place of privilege where I can say, "Yeah, I'm chilling," because of this, but other people are like, it's every day. Just terrible stuff, and I was very, very privileged to be able to walk away from a bad situation. Some people are stuck in domestic abuse situations, and that's definitely not a positive. But for me it was absolutely a positive, just didn't realize it when it was happening. But yeah. And it also kind of, I still work forty hours a week, but I don't work on the weekends anymore. And I kind of have flexibility. We have core hours during our workdays and I can do my personal flex hours, if I want, after dinner. Or really early, so I can have an early day. And that's really helpful for moms and parents in general who, that works really well for after the kid's asleep, they can do their work or whatever. So yeah, I think that there's definitely a lot of good stuff with this. KL: Yeah, and not that this is about me, but there is something nice about -- I have two children -- so it's been nice to be like, "All right, it's ten o'clock in the morning, let's go for a walk." You know? And then we can all reset our morning and then I can get back and I can be like, "Okay, go play video games so I can work for the rest of the day." And not feel too guilty. (laughs) That they're just screen time all day. Because I've just had to make peace with that. But yeah I'm like, we can go for a ten o'clock walk in the morning can go play outside at three. And then I can go back to work and just get it done before dinner. GH: Yeah. I will say, (inaudible) didn't remember to talk about that, but I do feel like I'm constantly in front of a screen, which is not good. And humans are social creatures, so it's tough to like -- so I'm absolutely a thousand percent, wear a mask. But it is tough to kind of just see this [covers lower half of face with hand] because I'll smile at somebody in public and they won't realize I'm smiling. So there's a lot of stuff that kind of feels a little bit inhuman about this. But it's for the best. Hopefully we can figure out how to get out of this. KL: I know. GH: I feel like this is going to be a lot longer than any of us will think it is. Mainly because we don't want to do that two-week strict quarantine, but -- KL: No, so stressful. GH: Also I think there was a study that was done that said that only half of the population that was surveyed about whether they get a vaccine or not would actually get a vaccine, so even if we do develop a vaccine, will it be taken seriously? That's tough. That's a personal thing ; that's just me kind of talking, so I hope that's usable. I don't know if it is. KL: I mean, it is. That's the thing, right? If someone in 30 years, who's going to know what happens, what the outcome of this is, can look back on it and be like, "Oh, that's what it was like to be living in it." Everyone has a story, and they all say something. You know? GH: Yeah. So the reason why I wanted to do this -- and I'm sorry I forgot about it for a while -- but I really think that my story is an important one, because -- and I am queer, but my family is just, that's not even something I can even talk about really. But I just feel like, I hope that people that are going through domestic abuse situations come forward about this stuff. Because I feel like a lot of people feel very stuck, especially kids, during this time. I feel so bad for little kiddies that just are in a really, really abusive household situation. Yeah, and I hope that this is something that resonates with people, because it was bad. (laughs) Yeah. And I shaved my head, too, because (laughs) I had a whole, full-blown identity crisis. And what's a better time to shave your head than in a pandemic where you're all inside all day? So check that off my bucket list, move on. KL: Perfect. I did think, "I should've colored my hair at the beginning of this." GH: You have such fun hair. You have like -- KL: I've got little nubbies. I call them my nubbies. Again, because I'm like, "Oh, now my hair's too long and I'm done with it." I've just gone like this and I just don't even care. (laughs) So you've shaved your head. That's awesome. GH: (inaudible) Grown out. I used to have a pixie cut, so it wasn't like anything crazy. But it was crazy for me. I just did it because I tried to give myself a haircut and then I was like, "I want a side shave." And then I did that and it didn't look good and I was like, "Okay, well I guess it's not salvageable, so you've got to shave it." And then I was like crying while I was doing it, but I was also like, "But this is so satisfying." So yeah. And there's some theories about how trauma lives in the hair, so maybe that was a symbolic sort of cleanse. I don't know, but yeah. Everyone kept calling me brave when I shaved it. I was like, "It's not brave. I kind of just have to deal with it." And I bought a wig but it looked terrible, so I was trying not to be brave. Yeah. It's kind of growing now. We're getting there, I don't know. KL: I like it. I know. Okay. So, you identify as queer. GH: Mm-hmm. Yeah, just generally queer. Yeah. I don't really care too -- I guess the closest -- I used to care about the label, because it's helpful to sort of have something to understand and feel connected with people on. Like, are other people experiencing this? And I was resonating with pansexual before. And then I was just like but I don't really know and I don't really care. And so I kind of just say queer or gay. I don't know ; I don't really care. Yeah. Yeah. KL: Is there anything else you want to talk about before I start asking you about obnoxious things like virtual Pride? GH: I don't know. KL: I'm sure you're all in on that. GH: I actually feel like something else that changed is dating during a pandemic. I'm [inherently?] single. I'm not mad about it, but I did try to go back on Bumble and stuff. And I did go on a virtual Zoom date and it was terrible. And because it was boring. And yeah, I feel like it's already hard enough to date when you're queer because everyone's dating everybody. I feel like the gay community is like band kids. Like all the band kids would date each other and it was just like, "What are they doing?" So it's a challenge, because everyone I know that's gay is already an ex of my friend or something. I'm just like, okay. But I don't know ; it's also kind of awkward because I had a successful date with somebody that I knew this past weekend, and we hugged, but I was like, I guess I need to be serious or at least make sure that I want to be involved with this person because now we might be spreading germs, so that's kind of similar to how -- not at all, well, I don't know. It's similar to HIV in that way. Except this affects everybody, so now I guess the straight community has to deal with like, oh, where has their mouth been? Where has their butthole or whatever been? Like, I don't know. So I think that there should be more said about dating in a pandemic. Obviously I think that the right answer is just keep your partners to a minimum because you don't want to spread shit, but is that really feasible? Are people going to listen to that? Obviously not because -- not that I'm saying that they shouldn't, I think that they should -- but it's kind of like telling people just not to have sex until they're married. That's not going to happen for most people. So yeah, I don't know if that's relevant, but [I want it to be?]. KL: No, it totally is. And some of the AIDS interviews that Liz has done -- so many people say the same thing, you know? They were active at the time, during the AIDS crisis, they were in their 20s and they were active in talking about safer sex with people and handing out condoms, and then totally being promiscuous on their own and taking none of their own advice and talking about how they did one thing and said a different thing. So I think it's similar, how you can say something and think, "Okay." Even going to the grocery store or whatever, when you're like, "Okay, I'll stand six feet apart from people." But then you're just walking past them because they're in your way. You just got to go. There's something that's human in how you're not used to being far apart from people, no matter what. And I don't know. Like in dating yeah. I mean, how can you just be like, "What's up? It's nice to meet you." And then just -- how do you end that conversation without like, a hug or something? GH: I just think about how colleges are reopening, and I was gross in college. Like, one of my best friends and I did a make out competition and we had -- first of all, everything was consensual. We had to ask to kiss somebody, whatever. But I made out with twelve people in the course of two weeks. We can't do that right now! We can't do that. That's gross! And also Moravian College just had the mumps outbreak before COVID, so I mean, it's just a lot to think about here. And everyone's just like, "Nope, we've got to keep on going because the economy." And I was just, "You can't have an economy if you lose a lot of people." And just because it says 1% doesn't mean that's a small number. Obviously comparatively, yeah, that's small. However, 1% of a million is a lot still. And I feel like teachers should be a little bit uncomfortable with reopening if like, "Well, only one percent of your students might die." You shouldn't want that. Anyways, rant over with that. I don't know. KL: I know. Well, that's all my feelings right now. And again, this isn't about me. But I'm on this college end of it, so I'm seeing how that college planning is going, and then I've got these kids in elementary school and I'm like, "I don't want them to go back to school," only because I hear all these faculty members -- they're not teaching in class. They don't want to be with students in class, and yeah, college kids are gross. But you know who else is gross? Fourth graders. You know? So it's like, how is -- yeah. Yeah. GH: Yeah, it's just not well thought out. What happens if one of the students gets COVID? What happens if the teacher gets COVID? I feel like they're just like, "Well, we have to do this because if we don't, then we lose money or we lose this." And also obviously school is really important to continue and social -- homeschooled kids are very obvious to the -- you know who those are, versus a public school kid or whatever. But I mean, it'll be fine. If we're all homeschooled, then that's the new norm. I don't know. KL: Yeah. Well I know. Some kids need to go to school because they need to learn how to be social with other kids. And I'm like, "Okay, my kids are super social so they don't need that part," so I feel like keeping them home for a year. They're going to be fine. I mean, they might not like it because they love other people, but hey, who likes it? I don't like it. I miss everyone I work with, I miss my friends, you know. GH: It's just so strange that we couldn't -- if the answer truly was stay put for two weeks, I guess we can't do that because there's people that literally think this is a hoax, but I don't know. Martial law is not -- if I was the president or dictator at this point, I would be like, "Okay, martial law. Two weeks. Get your groceries. You have a week to get your groceries and stuff, and then do not leave your property." KL: Yeah, lock everyone in. GH: I would be hated, but I would've saved the whole world. (laughs) KL: Everyone just do your thing. Binge TV shows for a week, a couple weeks, you're good. Eat and binge TV shows. Work out if you want to. GH: Yeah, and so I feel like a lot of cities aren't necessarily having issues. I feel like it's more left in cities, but where I'm from, there's Trump signs everywhere and everyone has a lot of property. So you don't even have to keep it inside. Just go outside and chill. I don't know. But yeah. What was the next question you had? KL: Oh my gosh. I don't -- it's whatever you want to talk about. I've got social life and personal pursuits, some categories. I have mental and physical health. We talked about dating. GH: Physical health, I guess physical health -- [dings] sorry. I had a gym membership before the quarantine, and I was going like three times a week. So I was trying to be better, and then this happened and I was like, "Perfect, I don't have to exercise anymore." I do have to cancel my gym membership though. But I need to be more active. I've been doing this thing called Randonauting, I don't know if you've ever heard of it. KL: No, I don't know what that is. GH: It's an app where they randomly generate a point on a map, given a parameter, and you're supposed to "manifest" -- I don't really like the idea of manifesting because I think it's a little bit a crock of bullshit, because just because you think good things doesn't mean good things will happen to you. Obviously having a positive mindset is ideal, but you know, I just think it's a little bit privileged, coming from that. Not everyone can think good thoughts and good things will happen to them. But you're supposed to manifest something, and then the point is generated, and then you go to that point and see what's up. And a lot of people on Reddit and Twitter have been finding really weird stuff. Like there's a lot of articles about people finding -- they'll manifest "death" and they'll find a dead body on a beach or something. So I don't do that, but what I do do is, I manifested -- I went with a friend because it kind of can be creepy sometimes, but I manifested a cryptid, which is like Sasquatch or Loch Ness. It's like mythical creatures. I was like, "I want to see a cryptid." And then they generated a point towards a strip mall, which is like, that's interesting. And we saw a groundhog. So it was like a cheeky sort of experience, but it's kind of fun and a lot of the times it'll be in the middle of a forest. So you have to hike, so that's been my sort of physical activity. I'll just go with a friend that I see regularly, because (inaudible) live together. If I have COVID, she has COVID. That's my sort of mental, or the way I work that out in my head. I hope it's not problematic, but if it is, I'm okay with it because I literally don't see anybody all day. So -- KL: No, I you know -- GH: I don't go to parties. I don't hang out with a lot of people. It's like three people that I see outside of my house, and that's it. But I guess people should get creative with how to spend their time, if they can't do the things that they were doing before. Yeah. KL: And like, reaching out to people that you can, I don't know, video chat with. Or be with in your bubble, whatever they're calling it. GH: I feel like a lot of people -- not me, because I don't like alcohol that much -- but I feel like a lot of people are concerning me with their alcohol consumption. Like, I'll call them and they'll be like, "Oh yeah, I'm just drinking." And like, again? It's a Tuesday. So I guess that goes along with mental health. But no, I haven't been doing that. Although maybe I should, on a weekend. But I feel like it's like, I don't know, doesn't feel like -- I don't know. KL: That's not the hobby you want to develop right now. GH: No, but I do feel like a lot of people are like, "Whelp, if I'm not going to go out, I guess I'm going to drink here," and then yeah, so, concerned. I think that there should be a -- if we're going to be doing this for a while, I think that there should be more messaging about how to be a person in this time. Because it seems like they're just telling us what we should be doing and then a lot of people get mad about it, that aren't creative. I don't know. Here's how you should be safe during a pandemic and also in a mental health way. Because not many people are about here with a counselor. So yeah. I think that that should be something that's focused on. I don't see that a lot anywhere, though. KL: Yeah I know, that's really true. I know, I'm like so thankful for my friends who I can be sad to every day, or be happy to, or yeah. GH: Oh, I guess another part is like, Black Lives Matter. I've been very passionate about showing up and helping as much as I can. Sometimes it just conflicts with my schedule, but I recently went to the -- I don't know if you heard about Palmerton's protest a couple weeks ago. It's a town over from where I used to live, and my good friends were the organizers. And it went very poorly. KL: Oh, no. GH: Lots of counter protestors. There was a lot of rumors that we were bussing in three hundred people from the Lehigh Valley, which is a very intentional terminology used by a lot of conspiracy theorists who think that George Soros funds this stuff. And there were like maybe 80 people there, and then like over three hundred of the other people there, not wearing masks. They also had guns and were pushing people, so I felt unsafe. I was having some heart palpitations from it, because it was hot out and I felt unsafe. So I left a little early, but it kind of was a wakeup call to me to see that people are really upset on both sides, and it's really hard to communicate. Not for me ; on my social media, I am pretty honest about my beliefs and I'll post something and be like, "If you want to talk about it, I'm absolutely down to talk about it. However, if you're rude, you're not allowed to. And you can absolutely unfriend me if this offends you." You know, like I'm not going to unfriend people for disagreeing. I will unfollow them if I see racist bullshit. I just don't want to create an echo chamber for myself, but I also don't want to spend time on people who just won't change. So I feel like a lot of people just don't want to have conversations. A lot of the Black Lives Matter protestors actually did want to have conversations, I will say, but I don't think they ever were in debate in high school or understand how to not -- I don't think opening up with, "That's racist," is going to reach people, even if it's true. So I feel like with the Trump presidency and with all these really, really contrasting views, it's just really hard to communicate. And no one's setting a real example, I think. If somebody called me a racist, I would be like, "Okay, why?" But I think most people would just be really offended and be like, "You're an asshole, fuck you." And I think there has to be some sort of know your audience, but unfortunately the people that showed up to this protest that were counter protesting it were not interested in listening at all. Because you know, if you showed up to protest a protest, I don't think you're going to listen. So I kind of tried -- I was the person that was trying to kind of reel us all in like hey, just ignore them. The more you do this thing -- you can't tell who's the idiot, if you're arguing with an idiot. So, I think that that was a big mental health thing for people. I'm mostly coming from the Black Lives Matter perspective rather than the other side, because that's a whole different sort of thing for me. But a lot of my friends continue to argue on Facebook and Instagram and Twitter, and I'm out here and I'm just like, "You know what? I need a break. This is a lot." And I know that kind of is selfish to take a break when other people can't take a break because this is their everyday life, but I can't continue to do my best and fight for what's right if I'm going to be drained and upset, so I'm going to educate myself. I took a week to read some Black and queer poetry, and then I talked with friends about it, and tonight I'm going to do a city council thing. We're going to do our best. I just don't think that a lot of people are realizing that they can't continue to keep doing the same thing and feel better. They're not going to. I appreciate the fight, though. I appreciate that people have so much passion for it, but I just realized, I'm twenty-three. And trying to please everybody has never worked for me. It's only made me want to die, so I'm not doing that anymore. I'm going to please myself, I'm going to try to please other people to the best of my ability, and if it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. So yeah. But small towns are tough, and I'm really glad that Lehigh Valley, at least the police aren't complete trash. They haven't been violent, as far as I can tell. So thankfully there's that, but not the same for the rest of the country, which is also really scary. Just a million different things happening that are completely bogus and crazy, and we're supposed to just be chill? Like no, it's okay to not be chill. Just don't push through that. Actually, we're in a pandemic, we're supposed to be quarantined. Take a second. You can. The fight's still going to be there tomorrow, absolutely. Yeah. I just wish I could tell people to slow down when they're supposed to be slowed down for a sec. And this is advice actually not that I came up with. This is advice from my advisor in college who I am friends with, and she is a really intelligent person. She has done a lot of good social justice work, but she takes breaks because you can't keep -- if it's a marathon, you can't just do that. KL: Yeah, because then you just can't continue to do it. You can't continue that work, and -- GH: As long as you get back into it. Some people, it is just a trend for some people. That's to be expected, and it doesn't bother me as much as it should, probably, because I'm just like, well, the women's march back in 2016, the more people involved, I think the less specific an issue becomes. Obviously it's raising awareness towards something, but I think a lot of the criticisms of the women's march were that it was vague. And it was, but it also showed how intersectional feminism can pretty much encompass every part of our lives, so you know, good and bad with it. But with stuff that is racial, it's probably best for people that aren't going to say the right stuff to let other voices come through more, because some people really are like, "Yeah, Black Lives Matter, but I'm not racist." You know what, if you're white, you're probably a little racist at least. KL: Yeah. You can't see that in yourself and admit that. GH: Yeah. Some of the protests I went to, where they had people like come up and speak about something. I saw some white people go up. I'm like, "Sit back down, sit back down. This isn't your time. Wait until other people go up, oh my gosh." So you know, I'm not necessarily [in bad?] about it. I mean, obviously the more the merrier that are going to stand in solidarity, but some people's voices do come through when they shouldn't. Just like with TERFs, like JK Rowling. I mean, we don't want her to be talking right now. No thank you. Yup. Yeah. KL: Yeah. Okay. I don't know, I feel like we have a few more minutes. So if you have anything else to say before we wrap it up. GH: Not really. I think I did a good rant sesh. KL: Me too. It was awesome. GH: Yup. Thank you for doing this. It's really cool. I'm excited to see what the product of it is, and yeah. I think this is going to be -- it's cool to be part of a history thing. KL: Yeah, I mean thank you so much for your time. GH: Absolutely. KL: And it's interesting on -- it's been fun to see everybody. It's been fun to listen to people, and I don't know. I don't know if fun's the right word, but it's been good. And it's, I think, a good -- I don't even know. A good view of all the things. GH: So, is this an anonymous thing, or not really? KL: Not really. I mean, if you want it to be. GH: So, I guess it's fine. I'm comfortable with sharing any of that, but I feel like some people -- I guess with the mental health stuff where I talk about the sensitive stuff, definitely trigger warning for some people. And I want it to be very evident that I am okay, because I don't want people worrying about me. I didn't tell anybody at work that -- they knew that there was stuff going on in my life, because they saw that my environment changed on Zoom. But I didn't tell them that I was that bad. So I guess I'm chill with it. I just hope that it's put in a way that doesn't concern my friends and family. Which, it is concerning but I'm okay. I don't know. I'm cool with whatever, and I'm not going to take back anything. KL: Well, I mean, I'm still recording by the way. But I mean, you'll get the transcript and you can look through it, and if you want to cut anything out, we can do that. GH: Yeah, okay. KL: And then, what else? GH: It should be fine. KL: And Ariel did one of these, too. GH: Ariel? KL: Mm-hmm. He did that. He did one. GH: Ollie also told me he did one. KL: Oh, did he? GH: I think so. Do you know Ollie? KL: I do know Ollie. GH: He used to work at the center. KL: Or, did he, with Liz? GH: Maybe with Liz. KL: Maybe he hasn't done it yet. Anyway, sorry, I just got [involved?] thinking of all of Liz's (inaudible). GH: You're really good at this. You made me feel very comfortable. Yeah. KL: Good, I'm glad. I know. I should stop recording, and then I'll say -- anyway, thank you! I'm going to stop recording, and then I'll just talk to you for fun. GH: Oh, Okay. KL: Hold on. And -- END OF VIDEO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
Duration
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00:48:24
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Title
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Gabby Hochfeld, July 29, 2020
Description
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Gabby Hochfeld discusses her life experiences during the COVID-19 pandemic including the ways in which it has effected her mental health, work life, and social interactions.
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PH40_03
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
Date
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2020-07-29
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Copyright remains with the interview subject and their heirs.