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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
An account of the resource
In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Kristen Leipert
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Christina Peyroux
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_33.xml
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5.4 Unknown Date Christina Peyroux, July 29, 2020 PH40_33 00:44:33 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Christina Peyroux Kristen Leipert video/mpeg PeyrouxChristina_20200729_video.mp4 1.0:|27(2)|58(8)|81(11)|102(14)|127(13)|156(6)|177(4)|194(4)|217(8)|242(9)|261(5)|284(12)|309(2)|330(14)|351(5)|372(13)|397(9)|418(7)|437(8)|458(12)|481(7)|502(14)|519(16)|540(10)|561(9)|584(12)|607(7)|626(12)|651(5)|672(13)|693(11)|716(15)|739(13)|762(7)|783(15)|804(5)|823(4)|840(4)|861(12)|876(4)|893(12)|916(7)|929(15)|948(7)|959(5) 0 https://youtu.be/IrX6vj-n6qE YouTube video 0 Interview Introduction KRISTEN LEIPERT: My name is Kristen Leipert and I’m here with Christina Peyroux to talk about her experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of the Covid-19 pandemic as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive. Our project has funding from the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium. We are meeting on Zoom on July 29, 2020. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start can you please state your full name and spell it for me?
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 ; CHRISTINA PEYROUX: Yes, my name is Christina Peyroux, C-H-R-I-S-T-I-N-A Peyroux P as in Paul, E-Y-R-O-U-X as in x-ray.
 ; 0 139 How the pandemic has affected home life and working in the Lehigh Valley Health Network KL: This is a really general starting question and you can take it wherever. How has the Covid-19 pandemic affected your life and this could be your work life, personal life, social life, sex life, anything.
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 ; CP: First off, I graduated college in Washington, D.C. and then I moved back to Pennsylvania to live with my grandmother. I am a registered nurse, so I started nursing this year, she finished nursing this year. She retired. 0 291 Starting nursing job before Covid-19 pandemic KL: So you graduated this year?
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 ; CP: May 2019.
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 ; KL: Were you still in school when this started and then got the job or was it kind -- I don’t know how that works because now I’m fascinated, now it’s like I’m just asking you this for me.
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 ; CP: That’s fine, absolutely, my hospital does this program for nursing students where you can be something called a technical partner, sometimes known as nurse aides, throughout nursing school so that you maintain a job and then you can be an internal hire. So I already had the job upon graduating[...] 0 505 Experience living with grandmother KL: Yeah, so you’ve been protecting your grandmother but has she also been -- I mean she’s obviously a good person that you can bounce your whole day off of and I bet she is just I was going to say loving everything you have to say to her, but I don’t know if that’s the right word.
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 ; CP: Yeah because, it’s funny because, you know, we’re two generations apart and in the nursing or any medical field that’s huge I mean every five years they come out with new studies let alone sixty years. 0 589 Socializing during the pandemic KL: I was going to say because you’re working, and you know so like your social life are you like maintaining friendships, I don’t know, video friending?
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 ; CP: When you’re in nursing school you don’t really have a social life. The on-running joke is like choose three: eating, sleeping, social life, and good grades. You can’t have it all. So usually, nine times out of ten your social life is what is nonexistent and it’s really unfortunate because when I was in college, you know it’s, you’re focused. 0 757 Exercising during the pandemic/taking care of self during the pandemic KL: I had a question and now I don’t remember it. Oh so you’re active in sports are you trying to get outside now, do you -- I know those are like the mental things I think that during this time are probably like super helpful.
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 ; CP: Yes, I actually for the first time since I was like four years old decided to not be on a team sport after college, I am working out like by myself. 0 867 Spending time with girlfriend during pandemic CP: And I’ve also been able to spend more time than I thought with my girlfriend. She actually moved to Virginia after college but then Covid hit and her job became remote, so she actually moved back to PA to live with her parents which is a like an hour or so from me. So on times when I have like a few days off or long weekends, I go there or she comes here. 0 929 Positive results of the pandemic KL: What other positive things have come out of it, do you have any like fun hobbies or no you’re just?
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 ; CP: Positive: my grandmother has a pretty large property and she has a large house for being here by herself for so long. She bought a house that would be able to comfortably live her, her son’s family and my mother’s family. So she has enough room for eight people in this house. 0 1063 Wondering about future work/staffing prospects CP: I wonder how life is going to be like in the future after all this kind of calms down? I think it’s made a lot of business owners and a lot of people realize what jobs aren’t really needed per se. And I don’t want to say needed for lack of a better term, but there are a lot of people that I feel like their staffing is going to drop, because they realize that they can function without it. 0 1131 Working at full functioning capacity during the pandemic at Lehigh Valley Hospital-Cedar Crest branch KL: So now has your unit gone back?
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 ; CP: Yes, we have. We are at full functioning capacity. I mean think about it, people who were intending to come into the hospital for all these things got delayed, now everybody’s coming in all of a sudden and everybody’s coming in worse because everybody delayed it. 0 1240 Taking care of mental health during the pandemic KL: Well some of our categories are about social life and personal pursuits which gardening is now your new. And then mental and physical health.
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 ; CP: Yes, on that note my therapist was like, who I’ve been seeing for years, is like maybe you should start journaling, and I’m really not the kind of person that opens up a journal at the end of the day and says “today I did this,” I’m just not that kind of person. 0 1351 Taking precautions because of Covid/Being mindful of potentially effecting the health of others CP: I’ve also had to invest in other gear, like other uniforms, because they’re getting used so heavily. I’ve bought other like scrub caps, yeah, I’ve gone through a lot of stuff. And my floor, they try to keep completely free of anyone who has the virus. They send people to my floor who are immunocompromised, so my floor is like relatively safe unless I get floated somewhere else. So I bring everything home, we have a shower on the first floor, I hop right in the shower, I throw my uniform right in the washer and she stays upstairs the entire time. 0 1643 Wearing a mask during the pandemic CP: Someone else might literally die from it, so people come up to me because they see me and like, they know I’m a nurse, and they’re like “so what about these masks, do you believe they work, blah blah blah”, and I tell them straight up front I’m like “I’m wearing my mask for your benefit. I’m wearing my mask, not because I think I’m going to get sick, and I’m afraid of me getting sick, but because if I have it or I get it and I pass it to you, you might die”. 0 1884 Changed work routines at Lehigh Valley Hospital-Cedar Crest branch during the pandemic KL: Now I’m totally asking you, are you tired talking about this yet. Do they have Covid patients? I mean how is that for you every day go into work, I mean everything’s isolated, but do you get daily briefings of what’s going on?
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 ; CP: So when Covid originally started and all the procedural units that were like ours, but couldn’t be customized into a medical surgical, like a generalized floor, a lot of their staff was either furloughed or floated, and they had staff posted at every entrance to the hospital scanning temperatures for every staff member and every visitor. 0 1971 How working during the pandemic has affected nursing career moving forward/may affect the nursing career in general CP: There are people in the nursing profession for like I said 60 years and they have never experienced anything like this. And I was right on the end, the tail end of normalcy, so I’ve seen both worlds. And like I said, there are nurses who have been in this profession for years and they’re like we’re all on the same level - now there’s no seniority with this. One has no practice with all of this, it’s just everybody’s trying to help each other survive. 
 ; 0 2113 Comparisons between the AIDS epidemic and Covid-19 pandemic KL: But I mean you know listening to some people saying how you know people didn’t want to take care of people that had AIDS in the beginning, you know like all this stuff and having to suit up when going into their brother in a hospital room and like the nurses not wanting to take care of them so the family had to do it, you know, and it’s interesting to see that comparison or just yeah all of this you know.
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 ; CP: Yes, and you make a valid point. Like, when we learned about the AIDS crisis, that happened and the nursing care that was provided, or even in some cases not provided, it’s, I’d like to think, very different from how we’re handling it today -for the better. 0 2211 Finding humor when nursing KL: What a sad conversation, anything fun you want to talk about?
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 ; CP: I mean I don’t know. It is what it is, this is my life now. That’s another thing I think nursing really, like a lot of the people if you ever have nursing friends or colleagues that were nurses, their view of life and their sense of humor are vastly different from common Joe, just because, I mean at the end of the day or night when we give a report and we’re like all of our patients are alive, like that’s great! 0 2360 Communicating with LGBTQ community members digitally CP: I think that during Covid, a lot of people in the LGBTQ community have found each other over long distances, because they’ve been forced to, because you weren’t able to see your normal web of people in person. You were forced to use a lot more social media or long distance things which almost eliminated the distance. 0 2501 Looking forward to going to LGBTQ businesses/LGBTQ community events after the pandemic CP: I am looking forward to going to more events with people, like from the community. Like I miss, like D.C., there’s so many LGBTQ friendly bars or dance floors, clubs, anything, you name it. I miss that and I do go to like Pride whenever it’s available but it’s nice that we have been able to like enjoy ourselves and have pride in ourselves without the big fanfare and the big parade. 0 MovingImage Christina Peyroux discusses her experiences during the COVID-19 pandemic including how it has effected her job in nursing and living with her grandmother, a retired nurse. Christina Peyroux 2020-07-29 KRISTEN LEIPERT: My name is Kristen Leipert and I'm here with Christina Peyroux to talk about her experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of the Covid-19 pandemic as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive. Our project has funding from the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium. We are meeting on Zoom on July 29, 2020. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start can you please state your full name and spell it for me? CHRISTINA PEYROUX: Yes, my name is Christina Peyroux, C-H-R-I-S-T-I-N-A Peyroux P as in Paul, E-Y-R-O-U-X as in x-ray. KL: Will you share your birthdate? CP: Yes, 11/22/1996. KL: This is the consent portion. Do you consent to this interview today? CP: I do consent. KL: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable format? CP: Yes. KL: Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats including films, articles, websites, presentations, and other formats? CP: Yes. KL: Do you understand that you'll have thirty days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview, identify any parts you would like to delete and/or withdraw your interview for this project? CP: I understand that. KL: Okay and this project has been approved by Muhlenberg College's Institutional Review Board and you may contact Dr. Erika Iyengar with any questions and if you want her email address I'm happy to give it to you. CP: Okay. KL: All right, so you are where are you currently located, your zip code? CP: Let me think, 18104. KL: This is a really general starting question and you can take it wherever. How has the Covid-19 pandemic affected your life and this could be your work life, personal life, social life, sex life, anything. CP: First off, I graduated college in Washington, D.C. and then I moved back to Pennsylvania to live with my grandmother. I am a registered nurse, so I started nursing this year, she also finished nursing. She retired, she's been a nurse for 60 years, so we kind of helped each other transition into and out of the profession. So I was born here but now I've moved back. My life has changed because my grandmother, being an eighty-two-year-old woman she's immunocompromised and I still work at the hospital. So I have to completely change my habits of what happens when I come home from work where I keep dirty clothes goes right into the washer, our water bill has gone up. Different cleaning or rather different ways of cleaning my shoes, so I've had to kind of think outside the box in order to still do my job and keep her safe as well. KL: So you work at the hospital? CP: I work at Lehigh Valley Health Network yes and obviously Covid-19 has affected my work life drastically. My unit is actually a step down cardiac unit, we handle people who are going for pacemakers and cardiac procedures of the like. And most of our people are elective surgeries, people don't usually come to the hospital and end up on our unit unless it's planned. And since Covid was like raging people weren't doing these elective surgeries, people weren't choosing to come into the hospital I mean as they shouldn't, it was good because we could keep people who were like really really sick in the ICU and other patients who really didn't need intensive care could come to our unit. So we turned into like a generalized what you would say a medical surgical unit. So I got patients that I really had no previous training on it was a great learning experience but it was also very nerve wracking because when you came into work every day you had no idea what you were going to get. KL: So you graduated this year? CP: May 20. KL: Were you still in school when this started and then got the job or was it kind -- I don't know how that works because now I'm fascinated, now it's like I'm just asking you this for me. CP: That's fine, absolutely, my hospital does this program for nursing students where you can be something called a technical partner sometimes known as nurse aides, throughout nursing school so that you maintain a job and then you can be an internal hire. So I already had the job upon graduating, I had already signed a contract, I had signed a two year bonus for ten thousand dollars all they said you just have to graduate. You've got the job all you've got to do is pass your boards which was a huge lifesaver for me because I know a large portion of my classmates while they were in senior year of nursing school studying for tests, studying for their degree were like well now I've got to find a job, it was a huge help for me. So I was already on that unit and when I had graduated May 2019 Covid obviously hadn't happened yet. When I started actually my orientation process in July 2019 we didn't, we were not affected by Covid yet, so I was completely on my own like a full functioning nurse off of orientation, had my degree when Covid happened. So they had to let us go and to be on our own and to like practice fully functioning by ourselves without someone like directly observing us when Covid started really ramping up. So it was a huge challenge I just (break in audio) people who are in school this year so drastically affected because their second semester, their clinicals were probably all cancelled. I know a lot of people couldn't get their nursing degree because the testing centers were closed so everything's been pushed back. So once again there's a nursing shortage. What's next. KL: Oh my gosh. So yeah amazing. So you've gotten to, you had like that experience of doing what you want to do let's say and then suddenly all new things to learn. That's a good start to your career. CP: Yeah, I feel like I had just kind of gotten secure like I can take care of patients now and then the rug was pulled out from under me so to speak. KL: So you have obviously still been working showering five hundred times. CP: I'm grateful, because people their life turned upside down, they don't know how they're going to pay bills. I mean I'm just out of college because I'm living with my grandmother I'm already done with my student loans, I bought my first car, huge like milestones that I would not have been able to complete had I not been living with my grandmother, had I not kept an essential job and had I not planned ahead of time and had the foresight to like really attack bills while I could. KL: Yeah, so you've been protecting your grandmother but has she also been -- I mean she's obviously a good person that you can bounce your whole day off of and I bet she is just I was going to say loving everything you have to say to her, but I don't know if that's the right word. CP: Yeah because it's funny because, you know, we're two generations apart and in the nursing or any medical field that's huge I mean every five years they come out with new studies let alone sixty years. I come home and I talk about a situation she's like, "When I was your age what we used to do." And it's just really funny to hear the differences and there are nurses on my unit that are kind of in between our stages. So I'll go to them and I'll be like do you ever remember doing this, this or this were you around during the days where on night shift you did this, this, or that. It's very interesting and it's a great talking point. KL: I mean you've obviously been like very aware of protecting her. CP: Yes. It's a complicated life but it's made it interesting and I accept the challenge, I appreciate it. KL: So I don't know do you, what else? CP: What else? KL: I was going to say because you're working, and you know so like your social life are you like maintaining friendships, I don't know, video friending? CP: When you're in nursing school you don't really have a social life, the on running joke it's like choose three eating, sleeping, social life, and good grades. You can't have it all. So usually nine times out of ten your social life is what is nonexistent and it's really unfortunate because when I was in college you know it's you're focused, I had the nursing major degree, I actually have a Spanish for Healthcare certificate which is almost a minor, I think I was like one class short of it actually being a minor. So I was really focused on school, I had jobs, I was on the varsity soccer team and I was on club rugby, I had a lot going on. So really my school and my sports were my social life, I didn't really have one. So after graduation I was like wow I can actually hang out with my friends, we can go places, we can do things, and then I had about five months of that and then Covid hit and now we're back to I don't have a social life because there's nothing open anymore. But I am video chatting, I am calling, texting, obviously you hang out with people at work while you're at work but it's entirely (break in audio) so I'm looking forward to when things open up again and you can go places like go to a park and just be outside and people watch and go to a restaurant, meet up with friends, you know that kind of thing. I actually miss -- from D.C., I miss having the ability to just bar hop. [Near here?] I lived on the same block as three different bars so if you wanted to go out and some place got boring you could walk down the street. If you needed to go somewhere that was far away you could just call an Uber or a Lyft, much less or I should say there are not as many people who drive for those programs around here. So, like the one day I pulled up Uber or Lyft just to see if there was anyone even around and I don't think Uber had anyone and I think Lyft had one person. I'm kind of in culture shock in that aspect but I'm getting through it. KL: Yeah that's always interesting. I had a question and now I don't remember it. Oh so you're active in sports are you trying to get outside now, do you -- I know those are like the mental things I think that during this time are probably like super helpful. CP: Yes, I actually for the first time since I was like four years old decided to not be on a team sport after college, I am working out like by myself. I was going to the gym but obviously that's kind of changed now, I'm lucky enough to have a huge driveway so I actually work out outside in the driveway, I can go for a run, there's lots of trails around here. I'm enjoying the fact that I can choose when and what I want to do when I work out which isn't the case when you have any kind of sports team usually. And I'm also enjoying the fact that I'm just like you know what I have a lot of errands to run, I can't work out today, like no required practice and I believe it or not am really enjoying that and I don't know maybe I could go back to like an adult recreational league in the future but as far as now is concerned I'm really enjoying me time because for a long time, I mean sports, school, it wasn't me it was what I was doing, so I think what Covid taught me to be honest was just be which I've enjoyed because obviously my work life is very busy, so when I get home it's nice to just be. And I've also been able to spend more time than I thought with my girlfriend. She actually moved to Virginia after college but then Covid hit and her job became remote, so she actually moved back to PA to live with her parents which is a like an hour or so from me, so on times when I have like a few days off or long weekends I go there or she comes here. So able to spend a lot more time with her than I would have been, had this pandemic not happened, so you know. KL: That's good I'm glad it worked out. Like a lot of people have been saying that you know, I mean of course you know it's taught people to really just slow down and kind of take care of themselves or realize how taking care of themselves, like what that means to them. CP: Most definitely. KL: So that's good. What other positive things have come out of it, do you have any like fun hobbies or no you're just? CP: Positive, my grandmother has a pretty large property and she has a large house for being here by herself for so long. She bought a house that would be able to comfortably live her, her son's family and my mother's family, so she has enough room for eight people in this house. So it's a very large house, obviously many beds, many bathrooms, multiple stories, and she has the yard to support it. So I've been really trying to help her clean the house, get rid of extra stuff she doesn't need, work on the yard, it's a lot of upkeep. I realized that in the process I don't want a big yard when I grow up or a big house, it's a lot of work and I'm really -- you know like to each his own, I'm proud of people for doing that if that's what they want but like I don't need that and that's okay. KL: Yeah, I hear you there. CP: I feel like when I was a kid my mom was like I just cleaned the floor oh my god how did it happen I'm like well yeah it happened. But now I'm the person saying oh my god I just cleaned the floor how did that happen. KL: I mean I get that, being home all the time now I have two children and it's like just I'm like working and then I walk to do whatever, I get water and I'm like where are there dishes, it's never ending all the things. But it's also been nice to just be like I'm working and now it's ten o'clock in the morning let's go for a walk and then I'll get back to work afterwards, like there's something about this you know like yeah. CP: I wonder how life is going to be like in the future after all this kind of calms down, I think it's made a lot of business owners and a lot of people realize what jobs aren't really needed per se. And I don't want to say needed for lack of a better term but there are a lot of people that I feel like their staffing is going to drop, because they realize that they can function without it. I feel like a lot of businesses have found a way around it. Like I know for example there are a lot of places who are suddenly creating outdoor seating when they never had it before, because people are requesting outdoor seating they're not going to eat inside, to each his own. But it's very interesting because people are like throwing up tents and then buying extra tables and they're like oh we have ten tables outside now. I don't know, I kind of hope they keep that stuff. KL: So now has your unit gone back? CP: Yes, we have, we are at full functioning capacity. They need to think about it if people who were intending to come into the hospital for all these things everybody's coming in all of a sudden and everybody's coming in worse because everybody delayed it. So, length of stays are longer, the amount of people getting treated raises exponentially. It's also forcing people out sooner because they don't want people to stay into the hospital too long. Like they're goal is to get up and walk the same day, that night of as opposed to just rest. And I know you know a couple of generations back you would have same day surgeries that people come in for in the morning and they leave that afternoon people would be in the hospital an entire day before, have the surgery and then be in the hospital an entire day after. We've drastically changed things. KL: Yes, that's interesting, I mean do you think that people probably do better at home or they're more comfortable at home or it depends on what they have? CP: It depends on their whole (break in audio) take that into consideration, we have special nurses to do case management for that. But I mean if they have a support system they'll probably thrive better in the hospital or at home than at the hospital, there's less noise for sure, more rest ability, better healing capabilities, yes. KL: I don't know, anything else, I'm trying to look at my list of subjects. CP: I can't think of anything off the top of my head. What are your other questions, it might trigger something? KL: Well some of our categories are about social life and personal pursuits which gardening is now your new. And then mental and physical health. CP: Yes, on that note my therapist was like, who I've been seeing for years, is like maybe you should start journaling and I'm really not the kind of person that opens up a journal at the end of the day and says today I did this, I'm just not that kind of person, I know it works for a lot of people, it's just like my job is so busy like I don't want to think about it when I get home. Like I leave it at work for a reason. So I bought these books and it's like three thousand questions about me, three thousand would you rather and I fill those out and that's my version of journaling, because it asks you questions that you would not think about. Some of them are like surface value that you just know the answer right off the top of your head, and others you really have to think about. And she like we go off of those deep questions and it's like what made you think today kind of thing. That's my form of like that keeps me sane, that keeps me grounded. KL: I purposely did not look at your stuff that you filled out on the form so I wouldn't be asking you those things that you wrote about. I feel like you know when you talked about well living with someone who you have to be careful with health wise I know someone who's a doctor and yeah I mean she just like showers at work, puts real clothes on, goes home, showers when she gets home, changes, you know there's just like a process that's a new process really that you wouldn't have done before. CP: I've also had to invest in other gear like other uniforms because they're getting used so heavily, I've bought other like scrub caps, yeah, I've gone through a lot of stuff. And my floor they try to keep completely free of anyone who has the virus, they send people to my floor who are immunocompromised, so my floor is like relatively safe unless I get somewhere else. So I bring everything home, we have a shower on the first floor, I hop right in the shower, I throw my uniform right in the washer and she stays upstairs the entire time period and I'm just like hey I'm out of the shower now, the stuff's in the washer, you can come down we can have dinner. KL: I feel like, yeah there's like a lot of mental pressure on, you know, someone like you who's just like in a hospital all the time. To just worry about everyone else around you. CP: Yes, you try to limit your interactions with people too especially when you're just coming home from work, like if I have to get gas, I try to use the pump farthest away from people. If I have to go shopping, I like to try to give people an extra wide berth, but you know I try not to go shopping or get gas on days that I had just worked in the hospital. I do what I can because I'd want people to do that for me as well. KL: I went to a doctor recently, a dermatologist and you know I had to take my mask off and I thought oh my gosh it was like my first time really doing anything and then I'm like of course like for anything that she needs to see I've got to take my mask off. And you know she was saying too that not that she ever really stopped working but because nothing was emergency unless it was, she would come in. And she said at first it was just like even though she'd see a few patients during the day, and it wasn't a lot of work and she was just looking at people's faces and then she'd go home and she said she would be totally done, like mentally done just from the fact that people were taking their masks off in front of her. You know how quicKLy that mental -- that's changed for just being like normal being close to people and suddenly that's like something scary, that just takes your energy. CP: It does, it really does. It's definitely taxing. KL: I mean I thought about her saying that and I was like yeah and she is afraid to see her parents and like they live in Pittsburgh and because she'd have to do like a two week quarantine and then stay with them you know it would just be like this extended time of vacation that she can't afford to take. Or, you know, is willing to do that or just be around them because they're immunocompromised and yeah like the mental energy, for like just the day to day everything and then to add that, you know. CP: I think the terrible or most stressful I guess you could say is god forbid something were to happen who you interacted with you'd be like was that my fault. And obviously you're never going to know who gave who, like if you had it, people go round they have no symptoms. Like you know what I'm saying, I think that right there is what is the most detrimental to people's mental health because I mean like I wear the mask because whoever I'm encountering might be immunocompromised. I feel confident that I'm young enough, I'm healthy enough, I don't have any comorbidities should I get it I would probably have like a fever, an upset tummy and body aches for like a day, think it's like a 24-hour bug and be fine. Someone else might literally die from it, so that's when come up to me because they see me as like they know I'm a nurse and they're like so what about these masks, do you believe they work, blah blah blah, and I tell them straight up front I'm like I'm wearing my mask for your benefit. I'm wearing my mask not because I think I'm going to get sick and I'm afraid of me getting sick, but because if I have it or I get it and I pass it to you you might die. And that really makes it very simple and makes it very clear for people. And that might seem very abrupt and very like grim but honestly that's what people understand when it's stressful and it's all complicated and that's the easiest way for me to explain it to people. KL: Would you have worn a mask beforehand like in your unit normally on a regular just like checking people, no? CP: Only if they had some form of virus, illness, that required something called droplet precautions. So if they had the flu we would go in with a mask and goggles and that's our droplet precautions. If they were actively coughing we would ask if they would be willing to wear a mask when we came into the room or if they're doing a breathing treatment during it we would actually have to gown up and we'd put on scrubs and we'd put on bootees as well as the mask and the goggles and then we'd go in the room. And you know everyone that has a cough, everyone that has a breathing treatment now we're treating as if they might have Covid even if they've tested negative because they might have picked it up in the interim. It's stressful, it obviously costs a lot of money and time and energy and supplies. But I mean for the mere fact that I'm going in this room, that room, all day long I'm going to do it because like I said if I get it it probably won't be as detrimental but other people in the hospital they are, I mean obviously they're there because they're sick, they're not choosing to be there because it's fun. Then the people who have to wear the N95s that would be normally people who wear N95s or would require it would be in special rooms called negative pressure rooms. And you would hardly ever need to actually use it for that intended purpose for things like tuberculosis. Like you don't see it very often anymore and the fact that they ran out of negative pressure rooms like the first day that we went into red phase was kind of mind boggling to me because it was almost like you always learned about it but you never actually saw it happen. And now we have to wear those any time someone's having a breathing treatment because they just might have it. KL: So are you at the big hospital, you're at Cedar Crest? CP: Yes. KL: Now I'm totally asking you, are you tired talking about this yet. Do they have Covid patients? I mean how is that for you every day go into work, I mean everything's isolated, but do you get daily briefings of what's going on? CP: So when Covid originally started and all the procedural units that were like ours but couldn't be customized into a medical surgical like a generalized floor a lot of their staff was either furloughed or floated, and they had staff posted at every entrance to the hospital scanning temperatures for every staff member and every visitor. Now when we opened things up again and we opened those units they are now only scanning visitors because they don't want as many staff members sitting at those desks, they want to open up the units again. So now we get a text message every morning that says this is your health screen, have you been in contact with anyone, do you think you have it, do you have any of these symptoms, are you feeling any different? If the answer is no to all these questions, you're cleared for work today and we do that every single day that we go into work. And yeah, it's changed things. KL: I feel like this is good for you at the beginning of your career -- maybe I'm making this up but it's like such an experience that you've probably again only talked about in classes and then you just get to experience it. CP: There are people in the nursing profession for like I said 60 years and they have never experienced anything like this. And I was right on the end, the tail end of normalcy, so I've seen both worlds and like I said there are nurses who have been in this profession for years and they're like we're all on the same level now there's no seniority with this. One has no practice with all of this, it's just everybody's trying to help each other survive. KL: Yeah and I wonder like moving forward how much of this is just going to inform everything about your career moving forward or you know change how all this works totally. CP: I am sure it will because in the future when they're in classes or they're in textbooks when they're rewriting stuff they're going to talk about the generation that dealt with the pandemic, or they're going to talk about the new nurses that started right before, during, right after, like a hundred percent. Like there's going to be an era almost as if it were like talking about a generation like Millennial or Gen Z but there's going to be something, there's going to be an era of nursing pre-pandemic, like an era of beginning of nursing like kind of when it started getting scientific, pre pandemic, post pandemic, there's going a hundred percent. Not necessarily before to really people think it was kind of like I was part of the generation that did bed baths with a washcloth and a basin and I used a washcloth. Like those are the two defining lines. But most definitely there's going to be so when did you start nursing before or after, yeah. KL: I know so you know this project it's doing forty years of public health with the interviews, so it's from like AIDS and HIV to Covid-19, so we have I think ten of these interviews that are with people who you know talking about AIDS and the AIDS epidemic and so like the comparisons have been interesting. But I mean you know listening to some people saying how you know people didn't want to take care of people that had AIDS in the beginning, you know like all this stuff and having to suit up when going into their brother in a hospital room and like the nurses not wanting to take care of them so the family had to do it, you know, and it's interesting to see that comparison or just yeah all of this you know. CP: Yes, and you make a valid point like when we learned about the AIDS crisis that happened and the nursing care that was provided or even in some cases not provided it's I'd like to think very different from how we're handling it today for the better. But it's just interesting because that's the only thing that really pops up in comparison, and I just think that the world kind of grew up a little bit in-between, or at least we all tried to. KL: What a sad conversation, anything fun you want to talk about? CP: I mean I don't know it is what it is, this is my life now. That's another thing I think nursing really like a lot of the people if you ever have nursing friends or colleagues that were nurses their view of life and their sense of humor are vastly different from common Joe just because I mean at the end of the day or night when we give a report and we're like all of our patients are alive, like that's great. Like that's our status quo as opposed to yeah, I got all these assignments done, or I graded all the paperwork. We are just very, we're trained differently, our mind works differently. Things don't really shock us [38:00] to an extent like when you talk about some person went into the hospital for something our immediate brain goes to well what did they do to -- what happened to cause that rather than oh my gosh that's crazy, because we're just used to it. KL: Like the sad things but also like so much that comes out of it you know like helping people and being with people and you know I would think like those relationships. I'm like an archivist, right, I just spend a lot of time in people's papers or now with the LGBT archives I'm lucky enough to meet people who I've already looked at their papers and then either I get to meet them in person or watch an oral history. And yes, you know, I have liked never cried from like both from sadness and like joy and happiness about any archives of like ever until these. It's like that description of yes there's just you know life right life stories it's like joyful and terrible and it's like everything. CP: I think that Covid a lot of people in the LGBTQ community have found each other over long distances, because they've been forced to because you weren't able to see your normal web of people in person. You were forced to use a lot more social media or long distance things which almost eliminated the distance. Like now I talk to people that I wouldn't normally talk to because it's normal for me to text people five minutes away and an hour away or lives in the next country. Like everything is digital now which isn't necessarily good or bad it's just it's forced people in the community to find others in the community through technology. Now I know for me who personally doesn't like human interaction to an extent, I like my time period to have me and be alone, I'm also when I'm comfortable very extroverted. But it allows people to interact more comfortably I think so I think people have found support in people that they never would have met or encountered prior to this because they have nothing else. They can't find people any other way so now that they're choosing to use electronic platforms, digital platforms they are finding so many more people. KL: Yes, I totally agree with that, even you know for me and seems like my work life. I've totally contacted people that I never would have seen, you know, around campus or that I've said hi to but just been like oh my gosh I'm going to email you let's talk. CP: Yes, it's interesting. KL: All right so we're coming to the end so if there's anything else that you think that you forgot to say, or you want to talk about? CP: I'm trying to think. KL: I asked you so many medical questions. CP: I am looking forward to going to more events with people like from the community. Like I miss, like D.C. there's so many LGBTQ friendly bars or dance floors, clubs, anything, you name it. I miss that and I do go to like Pride whenever it's available but it's nice that we have been able to like enjoy ourselves and have pride in ourselves without the big fanfare and the big parade. Which you know everybody loves a good parade but I'm looking forward to really ,really is relish the right word, like really really enjoying it when it comes back. Not necessarily taking it for granted because I think a lot of people did for a long time and I was really only coming into like actually fully enjoying it and getting to know my place in the community and what I understood. And I really didn't have a chance to be me at all these different functions until after college and obviously the five-month period before the pandemic hit. So I'm looking forward to it when everything calms down and it's safe for everyone again just because I will be so much more grateful for it, because I recognize that we could not, that there was a time where we couldn't have had it, or there was a time where I wish that we had it and we couldn't because I missed it because of this or that. That's it. KL: Great, I love it. All right well thank you so much for your time to do this, it's been great, totally fun. All right I'll stop recording and then I'll say goodbye to you in a normal way. END OF VIDEO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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Christina Peyroux, July 29, 2020
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Christina Peyroux discusses her experiences during the COVID-19 pandemic including how it has effected her job in nursing and living with her grandmother, a retired nurse.
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PH40_33
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
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2020-07-29
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Stories of Lehigh Valley LGBTQ+ Community Members (2022 - )
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Nadia Butler
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Christine Penn
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5.4 May 8, 2022 Christine Penn, May 8, 2022 LGBT-32 1:37:26 LVLGBT-2022 Stories of Lehigh Valley LGBTQ+ Community Members (2022 - ) Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository Support for the collection of this interview was provided by the American Council of Learned Societies (ACLS). trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Christine Penn Nadia Butler video/mp4 PennChristine_20220508_videotrimmed 1.0:|47(13)|82(4)|107(12)|136(2)|161(5)|188(4)|211(11)|234(8)|259(9)|286(12)|313(9)|338(8)|359(2)|382(14)|407(14)|436(8)|463(13)|492(18)|513(13)|542(5)|565(4)|590(9)|623(8)|646(11)|677(3)|700(4)|721(11)|742(9)|771(4)|796(7)|821(13)|848(11)|875(7)|906(14)|927(13)|952(7)|975(14)|998(9)|1029(4)|1056(3)|1081(13)|1108(10)|1133(3)|1154(6)|1173(12)|1202(9)|1219(17)|1242(6)|1265(12)|1294(4)|1317(12)|1342(9)|1371(16)|1394(9)|1423(4)|1448(5)|1475(9)|1500(9)|1527(4)|1550(14)|1573(14)|1600(7)|1631(8)|1650(17)|1671(6)|1696(17)|1719(13)|1744(4)|1773(4)|1798(18)|1821(7)|1846(7)|1871(2)|1898(5)|1925(8)|1950(6)|1973(7)|1996(12)|2021(18)|2048(9)|2077(11)|2104(14)|2129(14)|2154(11)|2177(7)|2200(16)|2227(15)|2254(2)|2281(3)|2308(12)|2329(18)|2352(8)|2377(16)|2402(16)|2435(7)|2462(11)|2483(10)|2496(13) 0 https://youtu.be/7Q7MfSDEZ-8 YouTube video English 0 Interview Introductions NADIA BUTLER: Hello, my name is Nadia Butler, and I am here today with Christine Penn to talk about her life and experiences in LGBT organizations in the Lehigh Valley as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. Our project has funding from the ACLS. We are meeting on location on May 8th, 2022. Christine, thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. 
 ; 
 ; CHRISTINE PENN: You're welcome.
 ; 
 ; NB: To start, can you please state your full name and spell it for me? 
 ; 
 ; CP: Christine Anne Penn, C-H-R-I-S-T-I-N-E, A-N-N-E, P-E-N-N. 0 81 Beginning to Cross-dress CP: That was the first time I basically considered cross-dressing. So, I went up to my mom's closet or whatever and started putting on her clothes, which obviously didn't fit very well. So, I was kind of tiny at the time. [laughs] So but that then started the behavior I would say of cross-dressing or whatever for the rest of my life. And up until later, obviously I don't consider that a cross dress anymore. And it's sort of weird or whatever. Just to me or whatever, it's like I have an issue or whatever with saying that, that I was cross-dressing, because to me, it wasn't really cross-dressing. I would say that was the only time I was right dressing.
 ; 
 ; But at the time or whatever, since I was male, everybody would have seen this as cross-dressing. And later on, I actually found out that there was a term called cross dressers or whatever. So later on in my teenage years, I started telling a couple of people and I told them that I was a cross dresser because that's what I thought I was at the time, but anyway. 0 86 Early Childhood / Early Thoughts on Gender
 ; NB: So to begin, would you tell me about the early years of your life? Could you describe your childhood for us?
 ; 
 ; CP: [laughs] Wow, sorry. I recognized that I was different at about four years old. It's my second earliest memory. So all of my early memories are based on like trauma, I guess you could say. So I was in a car accident when I was three years old. That's my first memory. It's the only time that I remember in my whole life that I was not feeling like I was transgender. I didn't know what it was at the time or whatever, but during that car accident, it was not an issue. Every point whatever forward from that point after that, I would say it's been an issue. [laughs] 0 504 Conversations with Parents about Gender CP: So, I call it being lazy, but really what it was, was a matter of convenience. What I didn't realize is that my grandmother would occasionally make the bed, flip the mattress and things like that. I didn't know that she was doing that stuff. So, I went to school one day, and she came in to basically change the sheets and flip the mattress. And when she did, she found my stash of clothes underneath, which then she told my mother about. [laughs] 
 ; 
 ; And then my mother decided to confront me about what it was, and she told me about it in the morning, on a school morning type of thing. And she said I want to have a conversation with you about the clothes that were underneath the mattress, and I'm like, oh shit, I'm dead. But she didn't have time to talk about it in the morning. So, she decided that we're going to talk about it in the evening when she got home from work. 0 784 Life During Puberty / The ACME Lady CP: So, for the most part 12 and 13, in that time frame, were pretty depressing for me. I just felt absolutely horrible. I had no idea what the hell I was going to do, the whole nine yards. And I wrote a story [laughs] about the ACME lady. It's one of my Medium stories. I recommend you read it. So when I was 13 -- so I had formed a theory when I was younger that basically it's like, I must have felt this way because maybe I had some internal female parts that just people couldn't see. 
 ; 
 ; And that's why the doctor declared me as male and instead of as female. So, I was hoping that puberty was going to save me. I would start developing breasts and start being the true woman or whatever that I was. And so I was really hoping that biology was going to save me. And when I was 13, I found out that my sister had already started puberty. So, puberty had not started for me. [laughs] So it turns out that there was something going on, and puberty got delayed on me for a long time. 0 1114 Schooling CP: But anyway, managed or whatever to get through high school. I kind of -- puberty sort of didn't really kick in or whatever until it's about 18 years old. It was a little bit of depressing to me. I wanna say it was -- I don't want you to get the wrong impression, whatever I wanna say ii was like maybe slightly helpful, because at least whatever I was now fitting better in with the boys. 
 ; 
 ; So, at least I was now looking more like a boy, which then made life a little bit easier. In one ways it made life easier because now I wasn't standing out as much because now I looked a little bit more manly. It didn't help with my internal [laughs] at all, so it's like not really th direction that I wanted to go in at all. But at that point in time or whatever it was like, there was a lot of information or whatever I was not familiar with at the time, I really wish I was, there was no internet, things like that or whatever. 0 1382 Sexuality CP: So, I quickly found out that was like I was curious [laughs] I've had lots of feelings or whatever. My whole, let's say attraction thing or whatever had flipped. So, when I was going through, let's say the 12, 13, and 14, I had a real attraction to boys. And quite I had a crush on somebody on my track team in 10th grade, it's like [laughs]. 
 ; 
 ; I never told anybody this or whatever, but I'd be like I'd go gay for you, that's how hot he was and how much he like turned me on. But I would never do anything about it. It's like that would have been like social death to basically come out or whatever and ask a guy out or whatever and as you're being seen as a guy or whatever, that's just never was happening. When puberty kinda kicked in, it flipped. It flipped for me. So, at eighte -- like around 17 to 18 or whatever, all of a sudden whatever, I started liking girls. 0 1532 Finding Community to Confide In / UCLA LGBT Group
 ; NB: You mentioned talking about your childhood that you grew up around Philadelphia and stuff, and you also had two siblings. I'm curious, did you have anyone aside from the grocery lady who you confided about these feelings?
 ; 
 ; CP: I did not, no, so, and I really didn't confide with the grocery lady at all. She just basically thought that I was a girl, and I just loved the interaction. So, really I didn't confide in anybody, that was a secret or whatever, and I was deeply held or whatever and wasn't gonna tell a soul type of thing. So I would have liked to have confided it to my parents, but as I said or whatever, that thing did not go well. 0 2012 Considering a Name Change CP: Immediately I was like, oh my God, these people have the same experience that I had. And we started really connecting or whatever. And then they asked me what my name was, and I was like, I didn't have one at the time. So, they were like, great, we'll help you figure one out or whatever, what we'll call you or whatever. And they were like, do you know what your parents would have named you or whatever, if you were born a girl? And I'm like, yeah, I do. They would have named me Kathleen, and they're like, great, do you love it? Do you like it or whatever? It's like, maybe you should go with that. 0 2257 Writing Prospects / Trouble Finding a Steady Therapist CP: So, anyway, I kept in contact with these people for probably a couple of years. And later on, I was in the middle of a chat, and the moderator jumped in and he was finding the stories that we're talking about very interesting because it was like sharing life experiences or whatever. I was telling them about the ACME lady and other things or whatever that was going on. And the moderator said, you guys should really document your stories, you should start writing a book. So, nothing had existed yet. Who's that famous author, I can't think of her name, I can see her, the blond. 
 ; 
 ; NB: Tori Peters? 
 ; 
 ; CP: No, God, what the hell is her name? She basically released a book or whatever. I used to have it. I had to return it, [laughs]. She was probably the only sane person on Caitlyn Jenner -- when it was Caitlin or whatever. She's the writer, what's hell’s her name?
 ; 
 ; NB: I know who you're talking about but it escapes me as well. 0 2635 The Birth of Christine Anne Penn / Finding Renaissance CP: So that's how Christine Anne Penn came about. So, Penn quite literally is appending, that was going to be my writing alias name. And because my original last name ended in two Ns, I added two Ns on the end of Penn as a tribute or whatever as a linkage or whatever, it's just sort of my original last name. And from that time forward started my alias of Christine Anne Penn. 
 ; 
 ; NB: And what year was this?
 ; 
 ; CP: That was in, that was like in the 1999/2000 time frame is when Christine Anne Penn was born. And one of the first things I did was basically Hotmail, it just came onto the scene and I created an alias email address or whatever for me, so chrispenn
hotmail.com, I lost that email address later by the way. 0 3092 Struggle for Family's Acceptance
 ; CP: And at the six-month mark is when my wife and my parents kind of beat up on me and said, you can't do this. So, I was on a path to transition and I had come out publicly back then was not publicly as we know it today, there was no Facebook where you could make an announcement, there was no -- what you got, but that doesn't mean it didn't spread by word of mouth and things like that. I was having lots of problems in life, like I walked into a bar and this guy came up and was like, are you that panty wearing faggot? I’m like, oh, lovely. Like, who do you know? 
 ; 
 ; So, he knew my brother-in-law, my brother-in-law told him that I was transitioning, lovely. So I was having all sorts of issues like that or whatever, going in public or whatever and things like that. But the funny thing is that I was able to walk that back later when I did not transition, when I did not go through with it. 0 3571 Living Dual Lives NB: I'm wondering, you mentioned your wife and your kids, and you also mentioned the sense of your having like a split identity. Would you mind talking about that for us?
 ; 
 ; CP: Sure, so, I basically associated the two behaviors, my behavior as male or whatever with my name, Christopher. And I associated my behaviors of what I did as female or whatever as associated with Christine and for the longest time or whatever, that was my life or whatever. It's like, quite literally, I had two lives. And for many years, whatever it's like during that 1999/2000 time frame or whatever, definitely had two lives going on. Then, two very active lives. 0 3784 Reaching the Boiling Point
 ; CP: And in 2015 I reached a boiling point, that was major. I want to say, it started in January. It started in January, and I was like, this is -- I had separated from my wife in November. And in January, I was starting to realize that all of those commitments that I made, about raising my kids and being the father to them and the husband to my wife. Kind of like, I met all those, they were done, it's like my kids were now, my daughter was in college, my son was about to graduate high school. It was obviously -- my marriage was falling apart, with my wife we were now separated, and I'm like you've met all these commitments or whatever you're done, you don't need to live up to that commitment that you made anymore.
 ; 
 ; And I started thinking about that in January of 2015, and I was like, I don't know, I'm now older, and like is HRT even gonna still work, you know? Do I wanna totally upset my life or whatever and so on and so forth. And I would say for a good five months whatever, I was like, I don't know if I can do this, I'm too old, I have established a life. 0 4461 Finding Hope / Searching for a Therapist with Gender-related Knowledge CP: Just get back to the truck, and drive to the bridge and fucking end it. That's quite literally, that was the mode, that was the mindset I was in. It's like, I've had it, I cannot, I don't wanna even think about it anymore, it's not even worth working out or whatever, and so on and so forth. And my mind was just driving me fucking crazy and I decided to turn on a song. I had my phone with me and on my phone I had music, and I decided to just turn on some music or whatever just to get me back to the truck, and a song came on and that song changed my way. 
 ; 
 ; That song is Peter Gabriel’s “Don't Give Up”. And I wrote this down in another Medium story [laughs]. The words to that song connected with me on that day. So believe it or not, this has actually been documented now. The Medium story that I wrote was actually referenced by a paper in the UK. They used it as an example of how many different people that this song has helped, in suicidal situations. Because essentially what I did is I documented how I felt that day, and what I was thinking about how that song saved me. 0 5003 Health / Impact of Sports on Life CP: Oh yeah, absolutely. Sports has been a major thing in my life. So the whole transition and things like that, it's kinda like ignited this thing where it's like I needed to get control of my life. And getting control of my life basically, I changed a lot of things, and one of the things that I had changed is is that, I spent an awful lot of time going through marriage and things like that being sort of depressed.
 ; 
 ; And I drank a lot, did a lot of what I would say bad behaviors or whatever and things like that. And so when I separated from my ex, one of the things I wanted to do was basically get control of my life or whatever, get healthy again and things like that. And it started getting back into my -- if you go all the way back to high school and even some college or whatever, is like I was always in into sports or whatever a little bit and I was like, I wanna get back into things. I really felt that kind of like -- it was somewhere I needed to be [laughs]. 0 5334 Finding Transgender Community in Cycling CP: So, they were struggling with, we don't know how to tell you how to deal with these things or whatever because we don't normally treat athletic people who are going through HRT, and things like that and that was leading to problem. And I was having a lot of problems that they couldn't explain. And the funny thing is that I know what a lot of them are now, but it's, [laughs] So I've been through one hell of a medical journey. [laughs] but eventually that led to me is that I got connected with a woman who was starting up a transgender cycling team and that opened up a world to me. 0 MovingImage Christine Penn recalls her early/family life and relationship with gender, as well as her experiences with transgender positive communities online and in-person. INTERVIEW WITH CHRISTINE PENN MAY 8, 2022 Dear Reader, You may notice an issue trying to follow along watching the video or reading the transcript for this person. The repeating of the word "whatever" occurs frequently, as well as some incongruent thoughts smashed together. Christine Penn is aware of these issues and seeking treatment for them. Please do not allow it to distract you from the topics being discussed. It simply documents the human experience and where she was on her journey at the time. She asked the archival team to include this message to readers. NADIA BUTLER: Hello, my name is Nadia Butler, and I am here today with Christine Penn to talk about her life and experiences in LGBT organizations in the Lehigh Valley as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. Our project has funding from the ACLS. We are meeting on location on May 8th, 2022. Christine, thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. CHRISTINE PENN: You're welcome. NB: To start, can you please state your full name and spell it for me? CP: Christine Anne Penn, C-H-R-I-S-T-I-N-E, A-N-N-E, P-E-N-N. NB: Will you please share your birthday. CP: June 21, 1967. NB: Do you consent to this interview today? CP: Yes I do. NB: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized and made publicly available in online searchable formats? CP: Absolutely, why not? [laughs] NB: Do you consent to the LGBT archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats including films, articles, websites, presentations, and other formats? CP: I really hope that they do. [laughs] NB: Do you understand that you will have 30 days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review my interview. Identify any parts you would like to delete and or withdraw your interview from the project? CP: I'm looking forward to it. NB: Well then, let's get started. CP: Okay. NB: So to begin, would you tell me about the early years of your life? Could you describe your childhood for us? CP: [laughs] Wow, sorry. I recognized that I was different at about four years old. It's my second earliest memory. So all of my early memories are based on like trauma, I guess you could say. So I was in a car accident when I was three years old. That's my first memory. It's the only time that I remember in my whole life that I was not feeling like I was transgender. I didn't know what it was at the time or whatever, but during that car accident, it was not an issue. Every point whatever forward from that point after that, I would say it's been an issue. [laughs] So how I recognized it was is that I was doing something and I don't even remember what I was doing. But what I remember is the emotions of the situation. So I was doing something that my father did not like and basically he yelled at me and he basically said, boys don't do that. And I immediately just wanted to turn around and tell him I was like, well I'm not a boy. And I knew that if I told him that, that he would not understand, and I was eerily accurate. I kind of find that hard or whatever that I recognized what type of person he was or whatever at that such an early age. But that was like spot on or whatever, just like dad still doesn't support me very well today. [laughs] But that's what started it I guess you could say is that basically I did not feel like a boy, I want to say ever. I really felt that I probably should have been born a girl. I know a lot of people say that or whatever, but it's just an internal feeling that you have, and you just know it right off the bat. And that day it just pointed out that people didn't see me that way. And from that point forward, it just started a long series of issues or whatever that basically came up over time. So my next major incident when that happened at four, believe it or not it wasn't until I was maybe about seven. So even though I was aware of it and things like that, starting at that time when I was getting yelled at for doing girly things, it's really the first time that I started actively trying to fit in. So, in other words, I corrected my behavior that day because I was trying to make my parents happy or trying to make my dad happy. So, whatever I was doing, I stopped doing it and I started doing it the way that he expected me to do it. And that set up a long series of things that really took a really hard thing to get over because from that point forward, I was just correcting my behaviors constantly. Because if I acted naturally, I got in trouble for it. It is really what happened. So anyway, I wouldn't say that it was a major problem during those early years. So, but I was watching TV, and I was watching a commercial. [laughs] And I remember this commercial, it's like it happened yesterday. But there was this girl, and she was playing dress up on the commercial. She was basically playing in her mom's closet, whatever, putting on her mom's clothes, doing her makeup or whatever, and I was like, I want to do that. [laughs] I so desperately want to do that. And that was the first time that I basically, quite literally, went and did that. That was the first time I basically considered cross-dressing. So, I went up to my mom's closet or whatever and started putting on her clothes, which obviously didn't fit very well. So, I was kind of tiny at the time. [laughs] So but that then started the behavior I would say of cross-dressing or whatever for the rest of my life. And up until later, obviously I don't consider that a cross dress anymore. And it's sort of weird or whatever. Just to me or whatever, it's like I have an issue or whatever with saying that, that I was cross-dressing, because to me, it wasn't really cross-dressing. I would say that was the only time I was right dressing. But at the time or whatever, since I was male, everybody would have seen this as cross-dressing. And later on, I actually found out that there was a term called cross dressers or whatever. So later on in my teenage years, I started telling a couple of people and I told them that I was a cross dresser because that's what I thought I was at the time, but anyway. So anyway, that started at seven. When I was nine, nine is the first time I considered actually transitioning, even before I even knew that it was possible. I'm like this is serious enough that I should probably tell my parents. And at the time, I thought transition was gonna be, we're gonna go down to the store, we're gonna pick out a whole new wardrobe. [laughs] And we're gonna come home, and we're gonna start just dressing as a girl all the time or whatever. And basically, we'll just go to school and live life as normal, and everything will be absolutely perfect. So, I started thinking that way, but I really never acted on it. So, in other words, I never told my parents about it the whole nine yards. But I started thinking about that a lot, but I never quite got up the courage [laughs] to do it. At 12 years old, I got caught. So, it's kind of funny, it's like I didn't know I was caught [laughs] until later. So, when I was nine, we moved to -- originally, I grew up in Philadelphia and when I was nine, we moved to Bensalem which is a suburb outside of Philadelphia. And when we did that, my grandparents moved into the house with us. So, they sold their house. My parents sold their house. They helped my parents. I didn't know it at the time, but they helped my parents get the house. And essentially my grandparents moved in with us and my grandmother used to do a lot of the housework and I had gotten lazy with my cross-dressing. I stopped putting clothes back. [laughs] So a lot of times what I would do is I would basically go into my mom's room, basically take stuff, and then I would typically put it back after I was done with it. Well, what I realized or whatever is like some of the clothes I was borrowing never got used, other than by myself. So, I stopped putting clothes back. [laughs] And I basically just started leaving them underneath my bed, which was much easier because now I didn't have to worry if somebody was going to be in the room or in the house. I only had to worry about my room. So, I call it being lazy, but really what it was, was a matter of convenience. What I didn't realize is that my grandmother would occasionally make the bed, flip the mattress and things like that. I didn't know that she was doing that stuff. So, I went to school one day, and she came in to basically change the sheets and flip the mattress. And when she did, she found my stash of clothes underneath, which then she told my mother about. [laughs] And then my mother decided to confront me about what it was, and she told me about it in the morning, on a school morning type of thing. And she said I want to have a conversation with you about the clothes that were underneath the mattress, and I'm like, oh shit, I'm dead. But she didn't have time to talk about it in the morning. So, she decided that we're going to talk about it in the evening when she got home from work. That was a very hellish day for me cause, what it did was, it gave me about eight hours to think about what I was going to do. And during that eight hours, I decided it's that okay, now is the time to come out to tell them what's really been going on. And I wanted to tell them that I wanted to transition. So, I'm thinking -- so, I started envisioning this wonderful, loving conversation with my parents where I finally tell them. And mom's gonna come embrace it wonderfully, and we're gonna go shopping this weekend, and we're gonna get new clothes, and so and so. That is not the way the conversation went [laughs] at all. So basically, when I got home, that was my goal. I was like, I'm telling them this is driving me crazy. It's like nothing has changed. This has been going on since I was four years old. It's time to come clean and let them know. So anyway, mom came home from work. Immediately, the first thing she wanted to do was have dinner. I was ready to go. It's like let's have this conversation now and so on and so forth, and I can't wait the whole night. And the end result is that we ended up having dinner. After dinner, the conversation is not moving. So, I'm like mom, can we have that conversation now? [laughs] So I'm super excited because I'm ready to spill and she says there was some laundry in the laundry room. She goes, take this upstairs. When you come down, meet me in the family room. So, I take it upstairs to wherever it was going to. It was dropping off some clothes in the bedroom and came back down. And as soon as I turned the corner to come into the family room, my mom just blasted me. It was like, why the hell, basically really angrily. It was like, what the hell are all these clothes? Are you gay? And I started getting hit with all this horrible conversation that I was just not expecting at all. So instead of opening up, sorry, I'm getting a little emotional. I closed up and all I wanted to do is basically get the conversation to end because basically she was just yelling at me and accusing me of being gay and so and so forth. And so instead of telling her what was really going on. The end result is that it didn't go well at all, and I ended up not telling them. And that turned into a really shitty time for me. I was really wallowing. You know, it's like what the hell do I do now. That was a chance, and I blew it and so on and so forth. And I lost access to my clothes for a little while. [laughs] I was a bit more careful after that. It did not stop me from dressing up. It's just that I actually stopped using mom's clothes a little bit more and I had a younger sister, her clothes fit me better anyway. In fact, when I finally came out, one of the things I did is I apologized to my sister. I said I was stealing your clothes for years [laughs] the whole time we were growing up. [laughs] I laugh about it now and she never knew, never even picked up on it, never even knew and I'm so sorry. Anyway, I laugh about it now but it's pretty serious to me. So yeah, I knew everything in her closet that fit me. [laughs] And everything that did not. So, for the most part 12 and 13, in that time frame, were pretty depressing for me. I just felt absolutely horrible. I had no idea what the hell I was going to do, the whole nine yards. And I wrote a story [laughs] about the ACME lady. It's one of my Medium stories. I recommend you read it. So when I was 13 -- so I had formed a theory when I was younger that basically it's like, I must have felt this way because maybe I had some internal female parts that just people couldn't see. And that's why the doctor declared me as male and instead of as female. So, I was hoping that puberty was going to save me. I would start developing breasts and start being the true woman or whatever that I was. And so I was really hoping that biology was going to save me. And when I was 13, I found out that my sister had already started puberty. So, puberty had not started for me. [laughs] So it turns out that there was something going on, and puberty got delayed on me for a long time. I didn't know it at the time or whatever when I was 16, a doctor actually wrote a note about it in my chart, which I didn't find out until I was like 46 years old by the way that they had written down that note when I was 16, that they had noticed it as well. But I'll have to tell you that story later. But any rate or whatever, when I was 13 or whatever, I found out that my puberty has started for my sister and that was like even worse. That made me like seriously, like I would say almost like suicidal. And then and then I walked into a store and this lady addressed me as miss, and I was like holy shit, you know somebody can see me for who I really am. And I started going to the store all the time just to interact with that lady because she thought I was a girl. At the time or whatever it was part of -- so I know today or whatever, there was sort of probably an underlying medical condition sort of going on. And that probably played into it and it's played into the way that I looked as well. So I looked -- I was very skinny. I was growing very tall. So, if you look at like little girls today as they're growing up or whatever, they get kind of like they get to this like really skinny awkward phase or whatever, [laughs] that's probably what I looked like. And when I went into the store, or whatever, just talked to this lady or whatever, I'm pretty sure that's what she saw and just assumed that I was that I was a girl. And that went on for a couple of years and I would say that lady kinda saved me because it's like she recognized or whatever is like who I really was and that interaction or whatever kind of saved me. So, instead of going even further down the suicidal path, just because I was so depressed at the time, just that interactions or whatever with that lady kind of saved me through that period of my time. And I never got to thank her, that's what my story is, it's like I never got to thank her. And I ended up throwing her under the bus later on [laughs] so -- which I felt, I still feel horrible about it to this day. So, I don't know if you wanna hear that part of the story or not [laughs]. So, I was constantly having problems off and on in school, basically being looking like a girly boy, at times or whatever, I would get picked on. It's a very common story or whatever is, I think every one of us goes through it at some point in time. So, what I had found is that if you acted like a badass [laughs] then people picked on you less [laughs]. So, I had recently [inaudible] basically trans -- well, eighth and ninth grade or whatever basically move schools or whatever. I would go into catholic school, all the way through eighth grade and when I went to ninth grade, I went to public school. And I'm like, here's a chance or whatever to kinda start over again, and I'm gonna try to act like a badass, so I'm not getting beat up all the time. And so, I hung out with this really bad, I would say bad crowd of boys, [laughs]. And I was trying to act as a badass with them, and we ended up going into the ACME, and we ran into that lady, and she addressed me as miss and the guys that I was with picked up on it. And the one guy or whatever said to me is like, yo dude, she called you a girl, you're gonna let her get away with that [laughs]. And I came up with like a snide comment, I was like, thank you very much sir, whatever. And she looked at me like really weird, and we left, and it's like I saved my face with the boys or whatever, but I was like I just ruined my, the only thing that was going on that was positive in my life with her and I never got to apologize to her for that. So, there's some sorta weird circumstance whatever, I don't know if she was retiring at the time, but she ended up leaving the store. I went back and I tried I tried to go talk to her, I wanted to tell her what was really going on, [laughs] and why I did that, and tell her why. And I never got a chance or whatever to tell her, and she ended up leaving the store and I lost contact with her. So, I was like I feel really bad about it, it's one of the worst things I think that I ever did in my life. And I wrote a Medium story about it, [laughs] which kinda goes through some of those details. But anyway, managed or whatever to get through high school. I kind of -- puberty sort of didn't really kick in or whatever until it's about 18 years old. It was a little bit of depressing to me. I wanna say it was -- I don't want you to get the wrong impression, whatever I wanna say ii was like maybe slightly helpful, because at least whatever I was now fitting better in with the boys. So, at least I was now looking more like a boy, which then made life a little bit easier. In one ways it made life easier because now I wasn't standing out as much because now I looked a little bit more manly. It didn't help with my internal [laughs] at all, so it's like not really the direction that I wanted to go in at all. But at that point in time or whatever it was like, there was a lot of information or whatever I was not familiar with at the time, I really wish I was, there was no internet, things like that or whatever. I found out or whatever that, -- and by the way I was pulled out of public school at the end of 10th grade, and I was shoved back into catholic school. And for 11th and 12th, that was probably a good thing in the long run [laughs] because hanging out with that bad crowd at the public school. I probably would have crashed and burned, probably would have never went to college, or did anything that came along later in life. Which is sorta what happened to my older brother, [laughs] my older brother hung out with -- with a bad crowd too, and he ended up not going to college and things like that, and they felt that it was the school or whatever that influenced his decisions and things like that. That turned him that way, which my parents were like, well we're gonna fix that for a second kid, I'm the middle kid. So, I have an older brother and a younger sister, and I'm the middle kid, and they threw me back into catholic school. That did turn things around for me, when I was thrown back into catholic school, it was an academic type of place as opposed to the public schools, I would say a little bit more social. Social was first, academic second at the catholic school was academics first, social second. And I felt right back into let's go fix the academics, which then got me back on the path, whatever to basically go to college and I ended up going to college and I -- that's another long story in itself or whatever. But I went to college and I did -- overall I did fine there. Graduated, got a degree and basically went on with my life per se. But anyway, from a trans perspective, by the time I got to college or whatever, I was looking more masculine, so I fit in a little bit more. I was still trying to play, trying to be the best man, I guess you could say that I could be, yeah, it's getting very used over let's say playing that role. So, I wanna say it's sort of like acting but it kinda -- you get to the point of whatever where have you done it for so long it sorta becomes I would say normal acting, but it's still an act. It's kinda hard to explain that or whatever to people who haven't been through that experience or whatever, where you feel one way but you're trying to you're trying to do everything to kind of like fit in type of thing. So, it's kinda weird or whatever to kinda like go through that or whatever but you kinda get used to it. If you didn't do it for a really long time, it just becomes second hand, and that's the way I felt that it got for me, it just became second hand. It's like I know how to do this, I know how to fit in someone and so forth. Like I've learned how to do this, I can do it and get by per se. So when I got through college, basically I went through college or whatever, essentially that way. There was an LGB group in college there was no 'T' [laughs] I would have really have liked to have met a 'T' in college that would have been really cool. I did check out the LGB group and that was social death, at my school or whatever. It is like if you went -- if you hung out with the LGB people or whatever, that was like you were social death or whatever. It's like they had their own little clique or whatever and that did not interact with the rest of the let's say the normal college students or whatever. So, I quickly found out that was like I was curious [laughs] I've had lots of feelings or whatever. My whole, let's say attraction thing or whatever had flipped. So, when I was going through, let's say the 12, 13, and 14, I had a real attraction to boys. And quite I had a crush on somebody on my track team in 10th grade, it's like [laughs]. I never told anybody this or whatever, but I'd be like I'd go gay for you, that's how hot he was and how much he like turned me on. But I would never do anything about it. It's like that would have been like social death to basically come out or whatever and ask a guy out or whatever and as you're being seen as a guy or whatever, that's just never was happening. When puberty kinda kicked in, it flipped. It flipped for me. So, at eighte -- like around 17 to 18 or whatever, all of a sudden whatever, I started liking girls. And that worked out well [laughs] cuz I ended up getting, in the long run, getting married and having kids and things like that. Funny thing is that when I started HRT, it flipped back. So, it's like -- and that's to me or whatever that was not a surprise [laughs] cause it's kinda like when testosterone really wasn't doing much of anything. It seemed like I was going down the path or whatever of being a normal girl whatever and being attracted to boys or whatever. So, when I flipped over to estrogen or whatever, it was like yeah, that was not a big surprise whatever that would flip back again. So just, it's kinda really weird or whatever when shit like that happens, it's like you don't necessarily expect it. So, but anyway, that's why it's like I have serious issues or whatever with labels, basically calling somebody like gay or lesbian or things like that or whatever because it's like, yeah, I'm pretty sure that I could have identified with just about any one of those labels at some point in my time or whatever does it really matter? And I was like, I don't really care at this point [laughs]. You wanna call me gay fine, you wanna call me a lesbian technically you'd be correct in that too. Do I consider myself like straight? Yeah, [laughs] the funny thing is that overall I'm sorta more on the asexual side. It's like, yeah, I have the attractions or whatever, but it's like there's no real big push to go do anything. So it's like not a whole lot of motivation [laughs] I guess you can say. NB: You mentioned talking about your childhood that you grew up around Philadelphia and stuff, and you also had two siblings. I'm curious, did you have anyone aside from the grocery lady who you confided about these feelings? CP: I did not, no, so, and I really didn't confide with the grocery lady at all. She just basically thought that I was a girl, and I just loved the interaction. So, really I didn't confide in anybody, that was a secret or whatever, and I was deeply held or whatever and wasn't gonna tell a soul type of thing. So I would have liked to have confided it to my parents, but as I said or whatever, that thing did not go well. Didn't go well later either, but that was a clear pattern across my life or whatever. So, we haven't gotten to that, it's like I tried to come out in -- so to me or whatever it was like, I think I did a story or whatever it's like for The Gay Journal. And basically, I came up with five times I attempted to come out [laughs]. So that first interaction with my father, that was a chance or whatever to come out that I blew. So that was one. [laughs] So there was, when I considered transition, when I was nine, that was considering or whatever coming out again or whatever, that was two. So, the 12 or whatever was number three, when I got caught and considered coming out again and that failed as well. I actually did come out in 1999 and then reversed. And then I came out again in 2015, 2016 time frame, that one stuck [laughs]. So that's the one where I actually went through with it. So, to me or whatever, I came out like five or attempted to come out three times, actually did come out twice, only one, actually worked [laughs]. So, in 1999, when I came out or whatever, that was after -- it's kinda funny or whatever, it circles around my exploration with the Internet a little bit. So, in 1994 I went to work for Honeywell, which is where I'm still working today. And Honeywell was actually on the Internet, but the Internet in 1994 was not the Internet that we know today. So, the Internet in 1994, there was like almost no World Wide Web. It was mostly interconnected, like mail servers and -- or call them like FTP servers or whatever, like file transfer type of mechanisms. But I don't wanna say that they were called FTP at the time they were called something else, and I can't think of -- not remembering what the hell they were called. But basically, you had like a whole bunch of like dial up interfaces, you could dial up and basically connect into your mail and things like that. So, the only thing that was kinda like on the internet back then, was defense contractors and colleges and the government, that was it. So, Honeywell was a defense contractor, that's why they were on the internet. So, and I had a lot of interaction with that, I was working as a network administrator at the time, as a network engineer [laughs]. And I was basically managing a piece of Honeywell's network. I had managed other networks for other companies before I came to work for Honeywell. So it was nothing new. But Honeywell was the first company that I worked for that was actually on the internet. And because I was a network engineer or whatever, I subscribed to a couple of magazines at the time. One of them was Network World, and I was reading an article in Network World bulletin boards. That's one of the things that, [inaudible] think of at the time. You can connect to bulletin boards whatever on the internet or whatever. Nobody had like web servers up, but they would have like a bulletin board service, which was kind of like a messaging service and things like that. Anyway, I read a story that UCLA, University of California, Los Angeles, was converting their bulletin boards to be now connected onto the internet directly. And they listed the groups that were basically within the college or whatever that basically had bulletin boards. And one of the things they listed was LGBT, their LGBT group, had a bulletin board and they were converting that over to the internet. And I was like, I had recently through other, let's say other research, had recently found information about transgender people. So, somewhere in the 90's, that term or whatever started to, I wanna say float around, [laughs]. And I wanna say whatever, is the term had existed or whatever for many years before that, but I wanna say it was more in in academic circles, it wasn't necessarily in public use. And I wanna say in the 90s, whatever, it started to become more public, where you could actually go to the library and find something to read about it. And I had recently discovered it. And at the time I, whatever I was thinking, it's like, I'm pretty sure that I've been transgender my whole life. Prior to that time, or whatever, I was thinking that it was primarily a cross dresser, because that was the activity that I was doing all the time. But, to me or whatever, it was never quite satisfying, is a good word to say cause it's all it basically did was reminded me of the predicament that I was in. So, it's something that I felt that I had to do, but basically it just reminded me is that this isn't temporary for you. And then when I looked at myself in the mirror, it's like, it didn't look right. And I was like, I look like a guy in a dress, [laughs]. I didn't wanna be a guy in the dress, I wanted to be a girl in the dress. And basically, getting dressed up or whatever just reminded me, I was like, no, I'm a guy in a dress. I feel like I'm a girl, but I look like the guy in the dress. Anyway, so, I started finding out information about transgender people. So, when I read that article about UCLA converting their thing, and they had an LGBT group, T being the transgender piece or whatever, and they spelled it out, they didn't say LGBT. They put in lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and immediately or whatever that was like holy shit or whatever, [laughs]. There's this group in UCLA of transgender people. And later on, I was on a business trip out to Phoenix and I decided to go onto the internet to see if I could find the UCLA bulletin board system, to see if I can talk to these transgender people. And I ended up finding them, so, there wasn't a Google, [laughs] at the time to go find it. There was a couple of other search engines or whatever, there was a couple of search engines or whatever before Google. Believe it or not, these things existed. They weren't very good, [laughs]. They weren't like Google is today. So, you really had to know what you were looking for or whatever in order to find things, and so on and so forth. But I was able to find them and I was able to connect to them. And one of the first, when I connected to them, I got into this chat group. And one of the first things they asked me is, what is your fem name? I didn't have one at the time, [laughs]. It's like, holy shit, so, this is another Medium story by the way, I have documented this as well. It's how my name came about. Basically, I connected with these with this group of other transgender girls and they started asking me questions or whatever. Immediately I was like, oh my God, these people have the same experience that I had. And we started really connecting or whatever. And then they asked me what my name was, and I was like, I didn't have one at the time. So, they were like, great, we'll help you figure one out or whatever, what we'll call you or whatever. And they were like, do you know what your parents would have named you or whatever, if you were born a girl? And I'm like, yeah, I do. They would have named me Kathleen, and they're like, great, do you love it? Do you like it or whatever? It's like, maybe you should go with that. And I'm like, well, the only problem is that I had a younger sister and she got the name instead, [laughs]. So I said, yeah that doesn't work, [laughs]. So, they're going back and forth or whatever, it's like do you have a favorite aunt or whatever that you like? Or a family member, so on and so forth. And I'm like, no, I've kind of -- so my deadname was Christopher, and I was like, never really like Christopher, never fit. So basically, I had, going by Chris, my whole life, Chris to me was gender neutral, it could go either way. That, to me or whatever, the name that I had decided on. And everybody just called me Chris. And I was like, no I'm pretty su -- I've settled this a long time ago in my head or whatever, so, Chris is fine, I just need to change the gender of it. So instead of Chris it's Christopher, we'll just make it officially as Chris is Christine instead. So, where were we, [laughs]? NB: I believe you were talking about, it was the late 90s, you discovered this -- CP: Okay, yep. So anyway, I was like no, Chris is Christine or whatever, it's fine. And I said, we gotta change more than that or whatever, I have a middle name, it's Albert and I'm like Albert has never worked either. And I was like, we're gonna change that too, and I said Albert was married to Ann, and technically my grandmother's name is Anna. But she hated Anna. She always, always had everybody call her Ann instead of an Anna. To her, Anna was an old lady, and she wasn't old, at least she was old to me, but in her eyes she wasn't old. And so she always had people call her Ann. So when she wrote out her name, she wrote out A-N and then she slanted the last A, so that it looked more like an E. And I remember her telling me that story or whatever, and I was like, I'm like, well, instead of you know her husband or whatever, and I was like, I'm gonna flip it to her, only I'm gonna spell it A-N-N-E. In tribute to her. And I ended up, so, at that point or whatever, Christine Anne was born. And that was enough, that's all I needed to do at the time. And it was never really gonna use Anne on the website or whatever, it's just gonna be Christine on the website or on the bulletin board. And that's what started it. But anyway, I found out later my sister is Kathleen Anne as well and she's Kathleen Anne with an e because my mom, her mother had told her the same story. So when she named my sister Kathleen Anne, she also did the same thing. But anyway, I am Iike, Christine Anne and Kathleen Ann, yeah, that's different enough, I'm not changing it again or whatever. We're sticking with Christine Anne with an E, [laughs]. But anyway, my sister is Christine Anne without an e, she's Ann, period. But she dropped it specifically because of the same story that my grandmother told me or whatever only I went with the A-N-N-E. So, we are technically two different Anns. I'm Anne with an E and she's Ann without it, without anything. So, I'm like, that's different enough, I'm not changing it again. So, anyway, I kept in contact with these people for probably a couple of years. And later on, I was in the middle of a chat, and the moderator jumped in and he was finding the stories that we're talking about very interesting because it was like sharing life experiences or whatever. I was telling them about the ACME lady and other things or whatever that was going on. And the moderator said, you guys should really document your stories, you should start writing a book. So, nothing had existed yet. Who's that famous author, I can't think of her name, I can see her, the blond. NB: Tori Peters? CP: No, God, what the hell is her name? She basically released a book or whatever. I used to have it. I had to return it, [laughs]. She was probably the only sane person on Caitlyn Jenner -- when it was Caitlin or whatever. She's the writer, what's hell's her name? NB: I know who you're talking about but it escapes me as well. CP: Anyway, she had not released her -- NB: Jennifer Finney Boylan. CP: Yes. Jenny Boylan, Jenny Boylan's book had not come out yet or anything or whatever. So, we were all encouraged or whatever to basically write our stories down or whatever and share it with the world or whatever. It's like people should know about our stories or whatever in the whole nine yards. And I took that to that to task. I actually did, I started documenting my story, I started writing down whatever, all my experiences, whatever in the whole nine yards about coming out and things like that. So, after getting in touch with these people at the bulletin board or whatever, one of the first things I did is, I'm like I need to talk to somebody about this and figure out what I need to do and so on and so forth. So, I started seeing psychologists, there was no such a thing as a gender therapist at the time. So, life was harder back then, in the late 90s than it is in the, let's say the later 20s or whatever today, totally different time frame. Everything was not easy as it is today. I can even tell you more stories, [laughs] more stories about that. You wanna hear them all? Okay. NB: Absolutely. CP: So I started seeing a therapist or whatever and I came out to my first therapist or whatever that I went -- I'm gonna call him a therapist, but they were technically psychologist. Basically, I set up an appointment with a psychologist or whatever, and I told her what I wanted to talk about. And I did this emotional dump on her. And basically, it's like I cried my freaking head off or whatever. And it's like I've been hiding my whole life or whatever and went through the whole story, and so on and so forth or whatever. And our second appointment, so I got through all of that or whatever the whole nine yards, it was like a two-hour appointment, where it's like I think I cried probably for 90% of it. And just dumped on her. I was thinking of all the turmoil or whatever that had been through and struggling with this and the whole nine yards or whatever. The second appointment I had with her, she's like, yeah, this is way too complicated for me to handle, [laughs] and she sent me to a second psychologist. She goes I haven't dealt with this or whatever. She is obviously whatever, it's very emotional for you and you're struggling with this and the whole nine yards. She goes, I don't have the expertise, but I have a friend of mine that I think you'd be better off with. So, she referred me to a second person. And then I started seeing the second psychologist, the second psychologist or whatever. And I ended up overwhelming her. Who then sent me to a third psychologist. And this is the way things went back then. Quite literally it's, like I said, there was no gender therapist and things like that. And I would say the majority of the medical community weren't even aware that transgender people existed and the type of emotional problems that they had and things like that. So, basically it was just being tossed from one to another. That was a little hard I guess you could say. So, the last psychologist I went to see told me, she goes, you're finding information faster than I can, [laughs] I still had access to the internet, she did not. Okay, so I was telling her about, basically it's like I really want to seriously consider starting HRT or whatever and things like that. She had never even heard of HRT. And I'm like, well the people out in UCLA are telling me there's this medical thing that you can go through and so on and so forth. And she said, supposedly or whatever, you have to go see a doctor and you need a letter for that, can you give me a letter? And like she's like I have no idea what the hell you're talking about. I'm like Jesus, this is gonna be like really tough. But anyway, I ended up not getting that far, [laughs] Anyway, back to the -- I started writing my story. I was sitting on another business trip on a plane coming back from Phoenix, Arizona this time to Pennsylvania. And I started writing my story and I was starting to think about publishing it. And I basically, I was not out at the time, and I was like, I didn't necessarily want my family knowing about it and things like that or whatever. So, I didn't necessarily wanna associate my name with the family because I wasn't out to them and I didn't want necessarily anything coming back. So, I started building what I would say a dual identity, okay? So, I'm sitting on the plane and I'm thinking is like, I need a pen name and over and over and over again, I'm thinking I need a pen name, I need a pen name. And it was like, I have a pen name, it's Penn, [laughs]. So that's how Christine Anne Penn came about. So, Penn quite literally is appending, that was going to be my writing alias name. And because my original last name ended in two Ns, I added two Ns on the end of Penn as a tribute or whatever as a linkage or whatever, it's just sort of my original last name. And from that time forward started my alias of Christine Anne Penn. NB: And what year was this? CP: That was in, that was like in the 1999/2000 time frame is when Christine Anne Penn was born. And one of the first things I did was basically Hotmail, it just came onto the scene and I created an alias email address or whatever for me, so chrispenn
hotmail.com, I lost that email address later by the way. But yeah, I would say that really started what I was considered the start of a dual life. So when I was female, I was Christina Anne Penn when I was male, I was Christopher Lunemann, was my original last name, which I now considered by the way a maiden name, I don't like to call it a dead name. Because I'm like if I was born right, and would have got married then it would have been a maiden name, and we would have dropped it. So, in fact I mentioned that in my name, change story or whatever, so I was like yeah, obviously whatever, just like yeah. Sean Penn after he dropped Madonna hooked up with me, we got married in Vegas, and it's such a pain in the ass changing your name, which it really is it pain in the ass changing your name. I just decided not to change it back. So hence Christina Anne Penn, and then I apologize and basically said, yeah, Sean, I don't remember that trip to Vegas either. So anyway, Christine Anne Penn was born around, we'll just say 2000 or whatever, just to narrow it off, because I don't know exactly, I don't remember exactly what it was, but it's somewhere in that time frame. But anyway, one of the other things that significantly happened is that like my, one of my psychologists, whatever, she suggested that I join a support group. And that actually put me in touch with the first transgender person I ever knew, which was, God I keep on forgetting names. I'm drawing blanks on names all of a sudden. I found Renaissance of Philadelphia is what I found, and God, what the hell is her name? This is pissing me off, I might have to fire up my computer and look some of the stuff up. She was pretty freaking awesome or whatever, and I didn't meet her physically until like I wanna say like 17 years later, but I had awesome conversations with her on the phone. So, I ended up finding out that Renaissance had a Lehigh Valley chapter and instead of going to the Philadelphia one, they ended up tossing me over to the Lehigh Valley one. And I joined the Lehigh Valley Renaissance, and this was around the 2000 actually 1999 because -- I know this because upstairs I actually have the magazine still. In one of my first meetings, I bought the Transgender Community News, which was a magazine that Renaissance was publishing at the time. And I bought the May 1999 edition at my first meeting I ever went to with Renaissance. So, and I still have it to this day. So, it was not the May meeting, I want to say it was the June meeting, they were selling the May -- the prior month's book or the prior month's magazine at the June meeting. So, June of 1999 I think was my first transgender support group meeting. So, it had actually taken several months to get in, by the way. So back then, okay, you couldn't go out on the internet and see where they're meeting and just show up, they didn't publish things like that. So, what you had to be is you had to be vetted. Angela [Gardner], what the hell is the last name, okay, it's coming back, it's Angela somebody and I can't think of her last thing at the moment, but she was the president of Philadelphia Renaissance. So, she's still active in the community to this day, but I first -- basically I found a telephone number for Lehigh Valley Renaissance, called was nervous as hell called them up and left a message. They didn't answer -- it wasn't manned telephone line, they just basically -- it was a voice mail and I left a voicemail and then Angela ended up calling me back later. And she vetted me. Basically whatever is like her job was to basically find out who I was, was I a crazy person or whatever, what I wanted and someone and so forth. And eventually I made it through her vetting process. And that's when I found out whatever that they had a Lehigh Valley group or whatever and then I was basically put in contact with the president of the Lehigh Valley chapter. And she then vetted me again before they shared the information of where they met and things like that or whatever. And basically, I was told, we meet on this -- the funny thing is that they were meeting on the second Saturday of the month, they continue to meet on the second Saturday of the month to this day that goes back to like original. So, but it was not they were not meeting at the MCC -- I don't know if you've ever been to Lehigh [inaudible], have you been to Lehigh Valley Renaissance? NB: I have actually, yes. CP: You have, okay. NB: I think we met there once prior. CP: There's a good chance we have, I have not been there recently but I had been attending from 2015 to -- we'll say 2015 the current, so it's not 2022. So, I've been going fairly regularly for the last seven years. So, this is back in 1999, so I basically I joined them or whatever, but the first time I went, I went as male. Second time I went, I went dressed. That was the first time I had actually ever left the house being dressed. So back in 1999 or whatever, that's the first time I actually went in public in fem. Had never gone in public before that. Never had left the house or whatever, still dressing in a closet. Had been dressing in a closet since I was seven years old or whatever at that point or whatever, I was now 33, so this is when I was 33. And that was the first time I had ever gone out in public in fem, and I went to my second Renaissance meeting in fem. So, it was quite the experience the first time or whatever, it was quite the experience the second time. I went for about six months. And at the six-month mark is when my wife and my parents kind of beat up on me and said, you can't do this. So, I was on a path to transition and I had come out publicly back then was not publicly as we know it today, there was no Facebook where you could make an announcement, there was no -- what you got, but that doesn't mean it didn't spread by word of mouth and things like that. I was having lots of problems in life, like I walked into a bar and this guy came up and was like, are you that panty wearing faggot? I'm like, oh, lovely. Like, who do you know? So, he knew my brother-in-law, my brother-in-law told him that I was transitioning, lovely. So I was having all sorts of issues like that or whatever, going in public or whatever and things like that. But the funny thing is that I was able to walk that back later when I did not transition, when I did not go through with it. So, my parents, not really my parents, my mother and my wife or whatever ganged up on me. And basically, my mom or whatever, she laid down what I would say is the worst thing that you could ever tell to a transgender person, but basically she said if you're really a woman then you know that you put everybody else's life in front of your own. So, she goes if you are really a woman then you will put your kid's life and your wife's life in front of your own, and you'll stay in the end for them. And that hit home for me, it's like I knew exactly what she was talking about, and I stopped transitioning basically, it's like now I made a commitment to my wife, to be the man for her. And Two kids were young at the time, my daughter was like six and my son was three, and it's like now we're gonna go back in the closet. Well, the intention was not to go back in the closet at the time. The intention was to basically nope, we're gonna stop doing this, and we're gonna ignore it, and we're gonna try to live the best life that we can as a man and be the father to my children and be the husband to my wife. And I went back in the closet for another 15 years. And I want to say for about six months, I didn't get dressed, I didn't do anything, I stopped going to the Renaissance meetings. I stopped writing my book, that came to a halt. So, I could have been a famous author like Jenny Boylan, I could have released my wonderful transgender story and gone through transition and release that as well. And it could have been a famous author, but nope, never happened. So, I stopped writing the book because nothing was going on, I wasn't transitioning anymore. I lost my contact with UCLA. I stopped looking at my Chris Penn email that I set up with Hotmail, and that's when they deactivated my account because it wasn't active anymore. And when I did that, I lost contact with all the UCLA people, cause I had no way of contacting them again. Which that was always a little problematic too because those people were kind of like they would come in, and they were college students, so they graduate and disappear. It wasn't like Facebook or whatever, like you become friends with something, and you can stay friends with them for the rest of your life. I only had contacts or whatever for people that were active college students at the time, they would come and go. So basically, it's like if you went, how do you get in touch with somebody who isn't there anymore, you know type of thing? So, I never ended up going back to the bulletin board system anyway. So, by the time -- after 15 years ago, but I wouldn't even know how to connect with the UCLA people at all or if there would be any reason to, so on and so forth. But the end result is that my wife always knew, when we were dating I told her is that I'm a closeted cross dresser, and she was okay with it. Which is part of the reason why I ended up marrying her in the first place, this is like if you could deal with this then you're a keeper. [laughs] She kind of like thought it was a little kinky or whatever. She was like as long as it stays in the bedroom and so hence why I was a closeted cross dresser and never went out. You know, because essentially I never left the house. Did have a couple of minor incidents as the kids were growing up. Apparently or whatever, I sleepwalk on occasion. I had dressed and fallen asleep and apparently, I slept walked around the house and my daughter saw me, and she then decided to tell her day care. It was like my dad dresses up in dresses at home. That did not go over well, because the daycare then confronted my wife and my wife then came and yelled at me, she's like we had an agreement or whatever, you don't you don't show the kids this, and I'm like I didn't show the kids this and apparently whatever your daughter knows, and I'm like, oh shit, I'm like how the hell did she find out? So, the best that we can find out, whatever it is that I probably slept --or slept walk one night or whatever, and she saw me. Believe it or not, that's how we, that's how we ended up with part of this Pocono house that we're currently sitting in. So, this was the second house when I was married, this was my house, it was always my house. I always fell in love with this area, whatever my -- we did make an attempt or whatever to let's say, live here full time as a primary house, but my wife couldn't stand it up here, so we ended up moving back down south, like the Landsdale/Montgomeryville area is where we -- where I met her and that's where I spent a lot of my time raising my kids down in that area, and this became a second house, and this was my weekend house, or whatever, to basically go away and get dressed and have a fun weekend by myself and I could come up here and we would, we would still spend like holidays and things like that up here, it wasn't just my getaway house, but it was very important for me to have like a getaway house. I needed a place to go. To basically -- so, most of the time when I was here, any time I was here by myself or whatever, I was -- I was dressed, in fem didn't typically go out. Basically, I would come up and go grocery shopping or whatever and then spend the whole weekend in them or whatever, but really never left the house. It's part of the reason why we're back here, kind of like we're in the back of a development or whatever, not really a whole lot going on here. It's not -- not a single neighbor ever noticed a thing. Pretty quiet back here. So that's how that's, believe it or not or whatever that, the location of this house where it is, why it exists, and things like that are very much tied into my life and continues to be. When, I got divorced, I was like, I'm keeping in this house. So, and my wife or whatever knew that, she's like, yeah, that's always been your house. It will always continue to be your house. She had no problems with it, had problems with lots of the furniture in it, which is, which did not go very well, and I've not really replaced. So, I had a very nice table at one point in time. I had a very nice sectional and things like that. They left when I got divorced and this got -- this was a really old table or whatever and that was like borrowed furniture and things like that or whatever it's like, I really need to replace a lot of these things, but I haven't really done so. But yeah, it's all tied in, it's all tied into the story, so. NB: I'm wondering, you mentioned your wife and your kids, and you also mentioned the sense of your having like a split identity. Would you mind talking about that for us? CP: Sure, so, I basically associated the two behaviors, my behavior as male or whatever with my name, Christopher. And I associated my behaviors of what I did as female or whatever as associated with Christine and for the longest time or whatever, that was my life or whatever. It's like, quite literally, I had two lives. And for many years, whatever it's like during that 1999/2000 time frame or whatever, definitely had two lives going on. Then, two very active lives. And what really became -- I wanna say is that basically I had two very active lives running like 50/50, for I want to say a good six months. And then transition came to a halt and then became a 90/10 split. Now it's like 90% Christopher and 10% Christine. And that's the way it stayed for about the next 15 years or so. And that 90/10 split was like Christine did not go away. She disappeared for about six months and then came roaring back. It's like, we can't stay -- cannot not do, let's say, these private behaviors or whatever and things like that or whatever. It's like I just can't live that way. And eventually what happened is that over time or whatever, Christine, I call her, I always say it's like she was the second person, whatever. But it's like really what happened was, is that, over time or whatever, it's like it started creeping, she started creeping up. Christine was yelling or whatever, it's like I can't be held in the closet [laughs] forever, and basically, eventually you just start exploring or whatever and so on and so forth. And you start -- now you go out in public, and you venture on public or whatever, see how it goes. So, I remember one time or whatever leaving the house or whatever, and it's like nervous as hell or whatever, but instead of getting dressed and coming back down to like the Landsdale area, whatever I drove and back then or whatever, it's like there was no EZ Passes. I actually had to pay a toll. I actually had to stop and interact with somebody and hand them money, and I was like, oh my God, whatever, what are they gonna say or whatever It was like dressed in fem. Of course, they just said nothing or didn't even notice it. I was just one in 40 million people that they collected money from that day, but to me or whatever, it's like harrowing event or whatever. It's like, oh my God or whatever, it's like, so on and so forth, it's those little things like that, that sort of like start out. It's the simplest things or whatever, just like, going to the gas station for the first time or whatever, and filling up your car when you're in fem or whatever and things like that. Everything's like nerve wracking, it's like, I'm gonna get found out, somebody's gonna be like oh transgender person, kill them. [laughs] But any rate or whatever, it's like, you kind of just keep on doing that. And the funny thing is that the more you do it, then the more it just becomes normal. And then all of a sudden it's like, now you have just -- now you have like two normal lives. It's like everything's got to like kinda normalizing or whatever on both sides. Over time or whatever, it just became, it's like, you know, this is the life I've always wanted to have. And in 2015 I reached a boiling point, that was major. I want to say, it started in January. It started in January, and I was like, this is -- I had separated from my wife in November. And in January, I was starting to realize that all of those commitments that I made, about raising my kids and being the father to them and the husband to my wife. Kind of like, I met all those, they were done, it's like my kids were now, my daughter was in college, my son was about to graduate high school. It was obviously -- my marriage was falling apart, with my wife we were now separated, and I'm like you've met all these commitments or whatever you're done, you don't need to live up to that commitment that you made anymore. And I started thinking about that in January of 2015, and I was like, I don't know, I'm now older, and like is HRT even gonna still work, you know? Do I wanna totally upset my life or whatever and so on and so forth. And I would say for a good five months whatever, I was like, I don't know if I can do this, I'm too old, I have established a life. Now we're talking about 2015 [laughs] we're up to May of 2015. All of a sudden in May of 2015, right around Memorial Day, I get hit with anxiety, it was not, and it was not a good time. So, during that six months, or whatever, that had passed whatever, since I'd separated from the wife for whatever, I was having a lot of financial problems. Basically, when we separated, the way that we had done finances is that -- I made more money than she did, and my paycheck went basically paying for like all the bills, like car payments, and car insurances, and mortgages and so on and so forth. But by the time my paycheck paid off all those things, there wasn't any money left. So, my wife had also worked. So, her money was the fun money or what I call the fun money, but it really wasn't necessarily fun money like it was the grocery money. And it was what we bought clothes with and all the stuff that you do outside of life or whatever. It's like my paycheck was basically sucked up with living, the mortgages, the health care, all of the necessities I guess you could say. But when we separated, essentially, I still had all those obligations. And now she had all the fun money [laughs] and no obligations. So, I'm like, you need to take over your car payment. I need to free that up, so I can go grocery shopping for myself, and she was like, well no, I'm not doing that. So basically, I was going broke, it was like I couldn't feed myself. And if I stopped paying like her car payment or whatever, it was like primarily on my credit to begin with anyway, so it's like all I'd be doing is screwing myself. I was in financial trouble big time, and that created a lot of stress. And then at work at the time, there was a financial slowdown and my work was doing furlough programs. So, in other words, basically, every two weeks, you're gonna get a day less pay. Rather than lay you off or lay off a bunch of people, were gonna basically cut back. We're now only gonna pay you for nine days out of a 10 day for work rate. So basically the end result is that my paycheck was going down. [laughs] So basically whatever I'm getting inundated with, I have no free money, I can't even go grocery shopping for myself, my paycheck or whatever is getting smaller, I'm basically getting screwed. So, I'm like, I need to get divorced right now, I need to force her to basically take over her obligations or whatever, so I can get money to free up, so I can basically go grocery shopping and live. And I had no way out, I had no money to hire a lawyer or anything like that or whatever. I did finally talk to my parents and basically, they lent me the money to pay for a lawyer to basically force her into divorce. Because she did not want things to change, whatever. She's got somebody paying for all of her stuff or whatever, and she's living wild and free and now has a shitload of extra money because now she doesn't have to do anything for me. So anyway, basically going through that through the normal stresses of life or whatever. So, it's not like work or whatever was going away. I now have the stress or whatever, finances, whatever going on or whatever, the whole nine yards. I did not need any other stress that's going on in my life when I went up like gender dysphoria, hi, I'm here. And by the way, I'm going to fuck you [laughs] and I'm gonna screw you over, like, as bad as you can be or whatever. And basically whatever, and that started in Memorial -- I don't know why Memorial Day or whatever, but it's like, right around that time frame or whatever. It's kind of like, you need to transition, and you need to do it now [laughs] and then quite literally, it was like a little voice in my head or whatever. It was like, yeah, you met all your obligations, you need to transition, you need to do it now. Your whole life is screwed or whatever, so we're just gonna screw everything. At any rate, that hit me in May or whatever, and quite literally, I just had the super anxiety or whatever. It was driving me freaking crazy or whatever. It's like -- it was going nuts, and I'm like, I can't do this, I can't handle this right now. It's like, I can't do that or whatever, the whole nine yards. My gender therapist or whatever basically said the stress of all those other things basically brought that stress to life, is really what happened. It's kind of like a frequent thing or whatever they see in us or whatever, it's like one stress situation kind of like bubbles up another one. It was definitely happening to me. And basically, it was just driving me crazy or whatever, and I'm like, and I was still thinking or whatever, it's like, is HRT even gonna work or whatever. It's like, I can't pass to save my life or whatever. It's like every time I go out in public or whatever, it's horrible, you know? And this isn't worth it. I quite literally started getting suicidal, and I picked a drop-dead date. My drop-dead date was July 4th, 2015. I said if I can't figure out what the hell I'm doing by then, I'm done, I'm ending it. And July 4th came around, and I was like I've had it, I'm done. I don't wanna go through the turmoil of transition, I can't keep living or whatever, the way that I am. I don't wanna live as male anymore. Basically, it's like I'm done, and I planned it. I started to execute it. So north of here, so this believe it or not, this goes back to cycling. So, part of the reason why I live here is because I fell in love with things like the D& ; L Trip. So, the D& ; L Trail is a trail that basically goes from Bristol, Pennsylvania all the way up to Wilkes-Barre, and it runs through the Lehigh Gorge right here. The Lehigh Gorge is, quite literally, three miles that way. So, this development is on the edge of whatever of the Lehigh Gorge State Park. So basically, you walk down the end of the block here, you walk into the Gorge State Park, and then from there to a mile or whatever is the river, but it's also a river and 1000 ft drop. So we're about 1000 ft above the river. But anyway, I was writing through all this time or whatever that I had the house up here, whatever, okay, I wasn't spending all my time in the house, let's say dressed up. Now I would go out and I would basically go ride a bike up and down the D& ; L Trail. I was very familiar with, well, to this day or whatever I can tell you about like every inch of the trail from here, all the way up to White Haven. So, at White Haven is the Interstate 80 bridge that goes across the Lehigh Gorge. It's about an 800 ft drop, from the Lehigh -- from the bridge to the gorge, or to the river. People have driven off that bridge. I knew people had driven off that bridge. People have committed suicide driving off that bridge. There's probably like about three or four people a year that do it. That's what I decided I was going to do. I was basically going to drive up to Interstate 80 or whatever and drive off that bridge. I was not going to call a hotline. I found out or whatever, my life insurance had a suicide clause. So, I was not gonna document it, not gonna do anything. I wanted it to look like a tragic, tragic accident, basically or whatever is just basically, I live in the area, or whatever. So, it would be like, it's not like I haven't driven across that bridge before. So, I knew exactly where to hit it. The whole nine yards, or whatever, basically I planned it the whole nine yards. Because it was July 4th weekend, I had been riding my bike all weekend trying to figure out, a way out, to not go and commit suicide. And when I left the house and basically said that's it, I'm done or whatever, I'm driving to the bridge. I realized or whatever that might bike was still in the back of my truck. That truck down there, the one that I still have. That was the truck that I had at the time, still have it. [laughs] Anyway, my bike was still in the back of the truck from -- because I had ridden the trail or whatever the day before, and I said, let's do one more bike ride. If I can't solve it on this bike ride or whatever, I'm not coming home, put the bike in the back of the truck, and we're driving off the bridge. [Inaudible] the beginning of the bike ride or whatever went absolutely horrible. I was still thinking about everything negative, I was thinking about it if I came out or whatever, and it's like everybody would have to know, my kids didn't know at the time or whatever. I was thinking that my auto mechanic has to know. Everybody in the area, or whatever is gonna find out, someone and so forth or whatever, it was just focused on everything negative, and I was like, I can't pass whatever, is HRT even still work for me, someone so forth or whatever it's like do I really wanna put myself through this? And the end answer was, no, didn't wanna do it. So eventually whenever I turned around on the bike and then I was headed back and I was gonna basically drive straight to the bridge or whatever, drive off the damn bridge, and I could not settle my mind down. My mind was just micro focused or whatever on, I've had it, I'm done thinking about this, I don't wanna do anything. Just get back to the truck, and drive to the bridge and fucking end it. That's quite literally, that was the mode, that was the mindset I was in. It's like, I've had it, I cannot, I don't wanna even think about it anymore, it's not even worth working out or whatever, and so on and so forth. And my mind was just driving me fucking crazy and I decided to turn on a song. I had my phone with me and on my phone I had music, and I decided to just turn on some music or whatever just to get me back to the truck, and a song came on and that song changed my way. That song is Peter Gabriel's "Don't Give Up". And I wrote this down in another Medium story [laughs]. The words to that song connected with me on that day. So believe it or not, this has actually been documented now. The Medium story that I wrote was actually referenced by a paper in the UK. They used it as an example of how many different people that this song has helped, in suicidal situations. Because essentially what I did is I documented how I felt that day, and what I was thinking about how that song saved me. So basically or whatever it goes through, it's a song or whatever and really what it does is it applies to just about any depressing type of situation. I would say go listen to it if you're not familiar with it, or go read my Medium story because I go through the story line by line and equated to what I was thinking about at the time or whatever and how that line connected with me. I had listened to that song probably 20 million times before that day, and never got the meaning of it. It's like I knew the words to it, but it never connected with me, that day it connected with me. And when I got back to the truck instead of driving to the bridge, I came back here instead, and the day after, I called my insurance company or whatever looking to basically go talk to a gender therapist or psychologist again. I had not spoken to one in 15 years at that point, from back to the 2000, you know, when I had spoken to him one last time and of course whatever as soon as I told them, what I had just been through over the weekend. They were like, please hang up and call the transgender suicide hotline. And, I'm like, no I think I'm okay there now, I'm not going to do that, but I really need to speak to somebody. And I did and it took about 2.5 months to find somebody. My company's health plan did not support anything transgender related. So, they did not have a list of gender therapists to give me to call. All they could give me was basically just mental health professionals. So, I ended up going through a list of like about 50 people, I think the 48th person that I called, was actually somebody who was familiar with gender related issues. And I ended up making an appointment with him, and he's the guy that actually wrote my letter to start HRT, or one of them [laughs]. What a unique guy, [laughs] I did not want a guy to talk to. I always found that women are much more empathetic. So I was really hoping or whatever to find another woman. The psychologist that I had spoken to before like years ago, they were all women, and I really felt that I had connected with them, I did not think that I could connect that way with a guy. But he ended up being a really good guy for me to to talk to. And he did all sorts of weird stupid shit, that I thought was stupid at the time, but I got it later. I always equate him to like The Karate Kid movie, and Mr. what the hell is mojo or what the hell? What the hell is his name? NB: In Karate Kid? CP: Yeah. NB: I have no idea that might be a little before -- CP: I forget his name or, so basically he's like Daniel-san or the kid basically goes to this little old Japanese guy or whatever. And he's going to teach him how to do karate, and he puts them to work, and he's basically telling him, he's like -- he wants him to paint the fence. And you must paint it this way or whatever, it's like stroke up and down, no side to side or whatever, it has to be up and down or whatever the whole nine yards. And then he has him wax his car, and basically once in the wax or whatever, doing these circles or like this, things like wax this way, wax on, and then off with your left hand. So basically, he's like teaching him, all these things, whatever Daniel-san or eventually gets pissed off or he goes, you're supposed to be teaching me karate and you're doing all this weird shit. It's like, I don't know anything or whatever, and then basically they have this fight scene. He goes paint defense, so he tries to throw a punch and Daniel-san goes and does the paint motion or whatever, and it's a block or whatever for the thing coming or whatever. Then he's like, wax the car [laughs]. Each one of these moves is a karate move or whatever, and he was getting him used to it by doing these things, that made no sense. And that's exactly the type of shit that my gender therapist was doing. A great thing would be one of the first questions he asked me, he's like, if I told you to put a tutu on and go dance in front of your house, would you do it? And I was like no, it's freaking crazy or whatever, and all the people will think I'm nuts or whatever, and the whole nine yards. And it was nothing about that, there's nothing about, putting on a tutu, it was everything about self-confidence. And me not caring about what other people thought, and it's like, I did not get it [laughs]. But later on, I was like, now I know exactly what the hell he was talking about, so it's kinda like that Karate Kid moment or whatever. Where he's talking about things or whatever and you're not getting it, you know the whole nine yards, and then later on it becomes perfectly clear. And he did a lot of shit like that with me and, [laughs] it's like doing this crazy shit or whatever, it's like why the hell are we doing this, what the hell does this mean? And then later going, okay I get it. He ended up being, I would say the right person that I needed at the time, and he helped me out a lot. Kinda like bring me out of my shell, I guess you could say cause I was still primarily closeted at the time. And you know very afraid or whatever to go out in public or whatever because all my public experiences to-date was absolutely horrible, and they weren't getting any better [laughs]. And I wanna say for the next two years or whatever after that they didn't get any better [laughs]. And he was sort of like preparing, basically he's like you need to build up some tolerance or whatever and not care about what other people think or whatever, it's like you're doing this for you. You're not doing this for them and who cares what they think and so on and so forth. And he really instilled a lot of that into me, so got me to change my perspective on things, which was very important at the time, it's like if you're going down this path or whatever, those are the types of skills that you needed. And it's like he would say -- I would say he was the first person that actually really helped me. So, there's the psychologist that I had seen years ago, and they were not helpful. Telling somebody about it was actually helpful, but they weren't doing anything to help me per se, other than being a place to vent [laughs]. So, the funny thing is that I still have -- and I see a psychologist today, I don't even see a gender therapist anymore. But I see a psychologist today and I feel I'm back to, she's just a place to vent [laughs]. It's not really necessarily helping me, but I have not necessarily given up or I still have the need to basically go vent to somebody on occasion. So I kept her around, [laughs]. NB: I think that's a pretty good idea given where we're at right now CP: Yes exactly. NB: Well unfortunately, we are running out of time. We have about 5 minutes left. CP: Oh wow. There is so much more I can tell you [laughs]. NB: Oh my goodness. Well, is there anything, before we wrap this interview up the next 5-10 minutes, is there anything else about your life story that you wanna talk about that we haven't gotten to yet? CP: Oh yeah, absolutely. Sports has been a major thing in my life. So the whole transition and things like that, it's kinda like ignited this thing where it's like I needed to get control of my life. And getting control of my life basically, I changed a lot of things, and one of the things that I had changed is is that, I spent an awful lot of time going through marriage and things like that being sort of depressed. And I drank a lot, did a lot of what I would say bad behaviors or whatever and things like that. And so when I separated from my ex, one of the things I wanted to do was basically get control of my life or whatever, get healthy again and things like that. And it started getting back into my -- if you go all the way back to high school and even some college or whatever, is like I was always in into sports or whatever a little bit and I was like, I wanna get back into things. I really felt that kind of like -- it was somewhere I needed to be [laughs]. And it's sort of weird, the way that went because it's really driven a whole lot of my life later. And it's very much tied with my transition or the whole nine yards. And so before I transitioned, and things like that, but when I started -- the health kick really started before I got divorced and went through the whole suicide thing and the whole nine years. It really started with my thyroid went. My thyroid went and I started gaining a lot of weight, and I had been, let's say, an occasional cyclist at that point in time. In order to offset some of the weight gain that was going on with my thyroid, I started ramping up my cycling. I started doing more and more of it, as a way to try to control the weight gain or whatever that was going on. I found out later, the funny thing is that, it ended up playing into it helping me get diagnosed with a thyroid condition. So, it was creating a lot of cardiac issues at the time, the thyroid problem. So, I was also seeing a cardiologist and the cardiologist was just driving himself nuts. He could not figure out what the hell was causing all these cardiac issues going on. So, at a meeting he asked me, what did you do this weekend? And I'm like, I did a bike ride on Saturday and Sunday, and he goes, how far did you go? And I said, I did about 40 miles on each day, so I did about 80 miles, and he goes, how much weight did you lose? I'm like, I didn't, I actually gained 5 lbs. [laughs]. And he goes, you biked 80 miles over the weekend, and you gained 5 lbs., and I'm like, yeah, I said, if I didn't, I probably would've gained 20, and he goes, holy shit. And he says, are you seeing your -- my general physician or whatever again? And he said, yeah, he's sending me for another batch of blood tests, or whatever. He goes, I want to see if there's one on there, and he goes, if it's not, I'm gonna add one. And he added the test or whatever, to basically test -- I forget what it is or whatever, but there's something that basically elevates in your blood if your thyroid is not working. Mine was off the freaking chart [laughs]. So he added the test for it, and it came back, it was also a freaking chart or whatever, so. But at any rate I was ramping up my cycling of more and more, which was actually, getting me more and more into, like a fitness routine type of thing. And so, after I got on the thyroid medication, I stopped gaining weight. Now I was cycling to lose all the weight that I had put on, I had to put on over 100 lbs. From when my thyroid went, to where I was when we finally got on the medication. It probably would've killed me within 6 months if they didn't figure it out [inaudible]. So, my fitness cycle, getting into cycling just continued from that point forward, and I never stopped it, and that then led into transition. It's quite literally one of the reasons why my bike was in the back of the truck. So cycling was always a way for me to like get out in the middle of the woods, like up on the trail to think about things, it's like, what the hell do I do in this situation? It was a place that basically get some clarity and things like that. So, it fit very much into my life, and I always wanted to be an active person. I wasn't -- there was a long time where I wasn't as active, but I was like partially active. We would go camping, have a camping trailer out there [laughs]. Any place where everyone camping, I went out hiking, [laughs] things like that, wife and things like that would not, but I would grab the kids or whatever. It's like let's go on a hike, or let's go on a bike ride and so on and so forth. And, I was always attempting or whatever to be active. It's just that there's lots of times where I was not. Once I separated from my ex, then I just became more and more active, I was biking all the time and so on and so forth. When I started transitioning, I found that HRT and things like that had a major impact, on all of my athletic activities, and I was struggling with it, and my doctors, and things like that, they had never treated a person who was like an athlete at the time. So, they were struggling with, we don't know how to tell you how to deal with these things or whatever because we don't normally treat athletic people who are going through HRT, and things like that and that was leading to problem. And I was having a lot of problems that they couldn't explain. And the funny thing is that I know what a lot of them are now, but it's, [laughs] So I've been through one hell of a medical journey. [laughs] but eventually that led to me is that I got connected with a woman who was starting up a transgender cycling team and that opened up a world to me. So, I ended up joining because I wanted to connect with other transgender cyclists who were, are you having these types of problems. With somebody to talk to or whatever and things like that, cause I wasn't getting answers from like the medical community and things like that. It's like, well, let's -- I didn't know any other athletes, I didn't know any other cyclists or whatever who were transitioning and things like that or whatever. It was like, I didn't have anybody to talk to and joining that team gave me people to talk to and I'm still a very active cyclist today. I call myself a semi competitive cyclist, I'm not very good, [laughs] so you'll never hear about me. So, in other words, I'm not gonna be the next Lia Thomas of the world or anything like that. I'm one of the many, I don't wanna say millions or whatever, but let's say thousands of transgender athletes out there that are basically not that good. So they don't put a spotlight on us type of thing. So for every Lia Thomas of the world, I wanna say there's probably thousands of others that are just not making the headlines because if you're losing, then it's not a story, [laughs ]. So I've been basically losing for years. [laughs] I'm well aware of what women's sports is like. I see all the bigotry, I see all the misogyny, I also see the lack of participation and things like that or whatever, it's like I see all of the bad and good. There's lots of good as well, don't get me wrong or whatever but there's a whole other side of the world or whatever when you kind of open that up. And so I am by the way, I'm trying to get more women involved in sports or whatever because the only time I've ever won is by default. So eg. or whatever, if you only get three women showing up and one of them has happens to be a transgender woman. Guess what? All three of you are making the podium. [laughs] Okay, so the only time I ever managed to get onto a podium at an event is because by default, [laughs]. Any time I've actually competed with other -- and there's much more of a story here or whatever. I'm actually pretty good in my age group, okay, but I wanna say 95% of the time, I'm not racing my age group, I'm racing a lot younger people. And then the younger people are a hell of a lot better than I am. [laughs] So I cannot compete with the younger people. So 90% of the time, 95% of the time when I'm competing with the younger people, I'm gonna come in last. If I managed or whatever to get into a master's race where I'm actually competing with people my age, I actually do fairly decent. I also do better at some distance races and things like that, but I'm still not considered an elite athlete at all or whatever and I'm just an entry level type of person or whatever. But the fact that I -- that I'm out there competing or whatever is to believe it or not a pretty big step. Plus I see what it takes, it's like I have a full time job, I have a full time life that really gets in the way of trying to maintain an athletic schedule. And I know what it takes to be a mediocre athlete, [laughs] I don't have the time to put into to get to that elite level anyway. Because unless you've got somebody paying for it and you can do it like, let's say 24/7, you're just never gonna be able to make it there. So unless you're and it's not worth anybody to invest in me or whatever cuz I'm already almost 55 already in a master as it is anyway. So another, it's basically I'm not gonna be heading to the Olympics or anything like that anytime soon, [laughs] unless like half the population was to die off or something. [laughs] It's like if you're like the last person or whatever that they would choose to go, it'd be like me over a couch potato. Yeah, [laughs] but I have experience, I know what the competition is like, I know strategy and things like that or whatever, but it's I'm not good enough to ever make it to that level. So because of that, you'll never hear of me, the funny thing is that I meet all the other goals or whatever. So I'm big, I stand out, I look like I'm gonna dominate type of thing or whatever. But in reality, the answer is like, nope, so therefore you'll never hear about me. NB: Not happening? CP: What's that? NB: Not happening? CP: It doesn't fit their mode of the story that they wanna tell. But anyway, that's been tremendous to me. So, the girl who started up the team or whatever, that was the first transgender sports team ever. So yeah, so I was on the first ever transgender sports team, it was the transnational women's cycling team, and it existed from 2017 to 2019. We did three active seasons of racing, so yes, if you go look at my racing schedule. You will see that I actually did a couple of races or whatever where I was listed underneath the transnational women's cycling team. It's kind of interesting or whatever that I do a lot more than what I get credit for. So, there's only so many races or whatever they basically like count or whatever towards your, let's say, your official record. So, like for example, I do a race every Thursday night, you have to have a license to participate in the race. But it does not count towards your record, it's considered a training race. So, the idea is that basically you do that race to basically build up your skills necessary to participate in the real races. So, it's absolutely vital or whatever that you participate in a series like that, but you don't get any credit for it. So, it's like I've done like thousands and thousands of races, but I think my race record is like maybe 27 races, [laughs] It's not that impressive. But my experience level is significantly higher. [laughs] NB: Yeah CP: So like for example, I've done the Tour to Tucson twice, the Tour to Tucson is not an official USAC sanctioned race. The reason why a lot of people do it is, is that it's in the off season. So in other words, it's a bike race, it's primarily a charity bike race. And a lot of elite cyclists will actually go do the race, it just doesn't count, [laughs] to the thing. So, -- and I've actually done fairly well at that race, so like in the top third. So, like for example, the one year I came in 25th out of 133 women, I think. So that's decent, nowhere near the podium, [laughs] But that's, I'm not a slouch either. So I'm not in like the 33 women who came in like after the 100, [laughs] So, no, I was in like the top -- I don't know what is it? At the top, I'm the eighth or something. NB: That's pretty impressive. CP: Yeah, so, but anyway, so I do okay, nothing record smashing or anything like that or whatever, but it's like I can do pretty decent things. It's just that it's not that -- yeah, nobody cares. Well I care, [laughs] What it really comes down to is that I care, lots of my friends care or whatever and things like that. The cycling scene or whatever is a pretty social atmosphere or whatever, and I absolutely love the groups that I'm involved in and things like that. I'm in four different cycling teams, by the way, [laughs] NB: Wow. CP: So and I'm pretty active in just about all of them. Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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Christine Penn, May 8, 2022
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Christine Penn recalls her early/family life and relationship with gender, as well as her experiences with transgender positive communities online and in-person.
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LGBT-32
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Stories of Lehigh Valley LGBTQ+ Community Members (2022 - )
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Foltz, Mary
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Goodwin, Corrine
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5.4 October 11th, 2021 Corinne Goodwin, October 15, 2021 LGBT-12 01:33:58 LVLGBT Stories from LGBT Older Adults in the Lehigh Valley Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Goodwin, Corrine Foltz, Mary video/mov 1.0:|27(6)|58(6)|79(4)|98(15)|117(11)|136(14)|159(16)|182(5)|205(8)|226(11)|249(2)|266(10)|283(11)|300(2)|321(8)|342(10)|367(4)|390(14)|411(8)|426(15)|447(11)|470(7)|489(13)|508(8)|529(9)|550(6)|569(14)|592(15)|611(14)|634(9)|655(3)|674(6)|693(5)|708(4)|725(13)|744(4)|763(5)|780(3)|797(11)|816(9)|839(6)|858(9)|881(14)|900(11)|923(16)|944(8)|963(14)|982(15)|1005(13)|1030(7)|1049(12)|1076(4)|1097(13)|1120(7)|1141(3)|1158(8)|1179(7)|1200(13)|1221(6)|1240(4)|1261(9)|1282(11)|1307(2)|1328(2)|1351(15)|1376(12)|1397(6)|1418(9)|1439(14)|1460(10)|1479(5)|1498(3)|1521(6)|1540(10)|1559(12)|1584(2)|1605(5)|1628(11)|1649(9)|1670(4)|1691(5)|1710(4)|1727(3)|1746(14)|1767(12)|1790(2)|1807(3)|1826(9)|1843(7)|1864(12)|1885(2)|1906(9)|1925(15)|1948(3)|1949(2) 0 https://youtu.be/CZvOsnjajNk YouTube video 0 Interview Introductions 0 129 Early Life 0 163 Early Gender Questioning 0 273 Experiences During Puberty/In High School 0 590 College Experience 0 682 Navigating Marriage and Gender Identity 0 745 Coming Out to Wife 0 928 Career 0 1378 Coming Out and Socially/Medically Transitioning 0 1594 Code Switching as a Trans Person 0 1846 Gender Performance and Overcompensating as a Trans Person 0 2062 Living Outside of the Gender Binary 0 2215 Pre-Internet Trans Representation 0 2381 Early Online Trans Support Groups 0 2496 Beginning of Lehigh Valley Renaissance 0 2575 Finding Renaissance in the 2000s 0 2878 Expanding Renaissance 0 2965 Inception of the Trans Equity Group 0 3082 Beginning of Renaissance's Large-Scale Events 0 3226 Partnering with the Bradbury-Sullivan Center 0 3277 Mission and Services of the Eastern PA Trans Equity Project 0 3712 Leadership Journey for the Eastern PA Trans Equity Project and Breaking Away from Renaissance 0 4097 Supporting Trans People and Their Partners 0 4378 Experiences Coming Out to Broader Circle 0 4521 Negotiating Transition with Spouse 0 4591 Evolution of Marriage 0 4891 Vision for the Future 0 4977 Plans for Trans Equity Project 0 MovingImage Corinne Goodwin describes her childhood in Yonkers, Long Island, White Plains, NY, and Glen Falls ; she focuses on her experiences as a transgender girl and the transphobia within her family. For example, she shares how her mother responded when she found feminine clothing in her room by exclaiming that it would “kill” her father if he found out. Corinne describes hiding her transgender identity from family after these formative experiences even as she continued to express her femininity in secret. Upon entering Eisenhower College, Corinne continued to be closeted, but developed important life-long friendships and met her future wife, Deb. When they married one year after college, Corinne discusses remaining in the closet even as she had “girl” days in which she was able to express her full self. In 1987, when she and Deb found out that Deb was pregnant, Corinne came out to her wife. The spouses developed routines in which Corinne could be her “real” self when Deb and her son visited relatives. Corrine also discusses her work life. She describes her 23-year career with Radio Shack, managing hundreds of stores within eastern PA ; her work as Vice-President of Sales for Vonage ; and her development of her own consulting business and then training and development business. 
 ; 
 ; Once she left the corporate world and started her own businesses, Corine describes coming out fully between 2008-2014 to everyone in her life, including her clients and living full time as her real self. She describes different parts of her transition, including social, legal, and medical transition. In other parts of the interview, Corinne discusses the import of support groups, like Renaissance, and how she developed the Eastern PA Trans Equity Project with other community members as well as their major work in our communities.
 ; Mary Foltz Interview October 15, 2021 MARY FOLTZ: All right, I'll go ahead and start. My name is Mary Foltz, and I'm here with Corinne Goodwin to talk about her life and experiences in LGBTQ organizations in the Lehigh Valley. This oral history is a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. Our project has funding from the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium. Corinne and I are meeting on Zoom. Today is October 15, 2021. We're meeting on Zoom because there's a crazy pandemic going on, and we're protecting Corinne's health. We certainly don't, I don't want to get her ill, so that's why we're here on Zoom today. Corinne, thank you so much for joining me today. CORINNE GOODWIN: I'm really excited about it, thank you. MF: I'm excited about it too. And just to start, a few quick questions, would you be willing to state your full name and spell it for me? CG: Sure, my name is Corinne Dawn Goodwin, my name is spelled C-O-R-I-N-N-E D-A-W-N G-O-O-D-W-I-N. MF: Thank you. Will you please share your birthday? CG: 10/30/59. MF: Okay. And I know you already signed a consent form, but I just want to review the consent for today. So, do you consent to this interview today? CG: Yes, absolutely. MF: Do you consent to this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable formats? CG: I do. MF: Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats including articles, websites, presentations, or other things that technology might bring us in the future? CG: Yes. MF: And do you understand that you'll have 30 days after I send you the transcript of the interview to identify parts that you might want to delete, or you could withdraw the entire interview if you wanted to? CG: I do. MF: Okay. All right, formalities aside, I'm just going to begin with kind of a general question. Corinne, tell me about the early years of your life. CG: So, I was born in beautiful Yonkers, NY, the garden spot of the state. In 1959 subsequently moved pretty quickly. My parents bought a house in Huntington, Long Island and I spent the first few years of my life there. So, my very first memory that I can, like, you know, like say oh yeah, I really remember that, was actually there, and it was around my gender. So, I was probably three, maybe four, and I was playing with the little girl next door. Her name was Gina. I remember my house was painted yellow, her house was painted green, and we were in her backyard playing doctor, and that's when I realized that I had different anatomy. And then my next memory, and I'm assuming that it was in the same day or, you know, close to it, was sitting in the bathtub in my parents' house trying to figure out how they had glued my penis on, because they insisted that they needed a boy. So, I remember talking to my mother about my gender, right, and why was I different. She kind of, in no uncertain terms, said, "Well, you know, you're a boy, and boys have penises." And I remember like just trying to figure out how to get it off. So that's my actual very earliest memory. Yeah, so. After that, we moved to White Plains, NY, so in Westchester County. We moved into my grandfather's house, so he retired and moved to Florida, and we moved into his home, and that was probably around I was eight years old, so third grade, and during the next few years, that's when I really began to realize that I was different than most other people. Especially, I think this happens a lot for trans folk, you know puberty is such a crazy time for people anyway, but for me it was like ultra-crazy because you had to figure out, that's when you have to start sort of putting on the "guy suit" you know when you're a teenager or adolescent, right? Or the "girl suit" if you're, you're know, and I couldn't do either (laughs), so. But during that time, I remember becoming incredibly adept at shoplifting, and shoplifting women's clothing. And so, we would go to, my mother shopped at McCrory's, which was like a five and dime store, a lot. It was like a Woolworth's. And I remember you know just really becoming really good at shoplifting and boosting everything from, you know, panties, to pantyhose to skirts, you know, and I would hide it under the mattress of my bed, which is not a great hiding place, right? (laughs) But and then my mom found my stash, and that's, you know, and she made it, my father at the time was traveling a lot, so he was in the paper business, so actually I worked in the paper business for a very short time. I was the fourth generation. Everybody in my family worked for International Paper Company. But he was traveling a lot. He probably traveled three weeks out of the month typically, internationally, to paper mills all over the world, and doing technical support, and he was away on a business trip, my mom found my stash, and I remember very, very clearly her telling me that, you know, this was deviant behavior, and if my father ever found out, it would kill him. That was like, the exact words that were used. And, you know, of course, you know, everything purged and, but it lasted maybe like three weeks and then I started shoplifting again (laughs), so. And that sort of lasted through, all the way up through high school. So, we moved to Upstate New York. So, moving from like the New York City area where like life is sort of like fast and we would go into the city pretty regularly and you know very racially you know, kind of integrated area that I lived in, you know, the junior high/high school that I went to was probably you know 40/50 percent people of color, and then we moved to Upstate New York. Glens Falls, NY. Which, like in the Adirondack Mountains, and it was like going from like, you know, overdrive to first gear for me. And right in the middle of adolescence, and I became very depressed. Actually, you know, I would skip school all the time. Go steal stuff (laughs). Have a girl day. And I did that for like two years. So, I had been a straight-A student when we lived down in Westchester, when we moved to Glens Falls, I became a C and D student. And it wasn't until my senior year in high school that I didn't even realize it at the time, but I was fully embraced by the queer kids at school. Right? And nobody talked about it, right? Nobody said, like, are you gay or are you, you know, transgender. Are you this, are you that? You know, nobody was talking about this stuff back in, you know, 1975, 1976, 1977. Especially when you're in high school, right? Because there's so much stigma around the stuff. But you know, looking back on it, you go like, oh my God! I was surrounded by all these queer kids, and we all took care of each other. That's what was going on. And yeah, so, finally I found my tribe in my senior year of high school, and I became a straight-A student again because of it, which was kind of cool, because it allowed me to go to college. But yeah, so that was my adolescence, you know. Being told I was a deviant several times, and I was going to kill my father if he ever found out. You know in hindsight, I think my father may have been a closeted trans person, frankly. So, he would shave his legs, he wore underwear that, you know, probably could have been classified as, you know, could go either way. You know, male or female in sort of the way it looked. In hindsight, you know, when I kind of think about his life, you know, I think that he may have been a very closeted individual. Whether that's true or not, I don't know, right. He's passed on a long time ago, so. I would have loved to have been able to have that conversation, so. That's the early years, I guess, right? So, I went to college. So, I went to a really small, tiny liberal arts college called Eisenhower College. It's since closed. It was actually only open for I think 14 years. But it was a very intense sort of classical liberal arts education, where you know, we read everything from Plato to the Bhagavad Gida, to the Koran cover to cover, and studied world cultures all across the world. I was an International Relations and Asian History major, and actually used to be able to speak Chinese relatively fluently. Not anymore. But you know, when I was in college, you know, you have roommates and you're living, eventually I got a single room, but even then, you know, you're in such close proximity that, you know, Corinne, who didn't have a name at that time, but you know that part of me, went very much into the closet. But it was really a wonderful time. It's where I met my future wife. And you know recently have started to reconnect with my larger college community, although our closest friends in the world were from, are from college, so. My wife and I, we get together with them several times a year every year for the last, you know, 40 plus years. We, so after college, my wife, Deb, and I got married in 1982. 1982? Yeah. 1982. Because we graduated college in '81. So, in '82, and then Corinne came roaring back. You know, so after a five-year sort of hiatus. Although I wasn't stealing things anymore, I was going out and buying them (laughs), but you know, still very, very secret. Kept it all from my wife. And you know, very closeted at the time, but you know, expressing my femininity through clothing as often as I could. My wife is an avid churchgoer and a believer, and I'm not, so my girl time was every Sunday morning when she went to church, frankly. And then we got pregnant in 1987. And that's when I kind of had my epiphany, so literally, and this is probably one of the biggest regrets of my entire life, and I apologize because it gets me a little emotional. But literally the day that we found out that we were pregnant, is when I came out to my wife. And in my mind, I felt I had to. Because it wouldn't be fair to her, or to our child, to go through life without them knowing about this part of me at some point. You know, there was lots of crying, there was lots of conversation, and what a horrible time for me to come out to somebody (laughs). But you know, in my head, the logic in my head said that you know, this is like the do or die kind of time. You have to be honest with her. And you know, it took a lot of years of kind of negotiating, you know, and ultimately, we sort of settled on sort of a don't-ask-don't-tell life around my cross-dressing, or my transness. So, essentially what would happen is for the intervening gosh, 30 years, my wife would go visit her mom once a month, she'd take our son with her, they'd go visit her mom for a weekend, and I would have a weekend to be the real me. And we did that for literally for decades. For decades. And it was really hard. It was hard when my kid found my fake boobs (laughs). You know, and like you know, he comes out of the closet with his little buddy from across the street you know and says to my wife like you know, "Hey, what are these?" (laughs) You know? And you know, "what are they doing here?" And he found my stash of stuff that I thought I had hidden away pretty good, and my wife said like, "Oh, they're just like for a Halloween costume," or something like that. And when a kid is eight, that's good enough, right? But that memory came up years later when I came up to my son and he goes like, "Oh, well you know, that explains the boobs." So, yeah. So, for years, you know, I worked in the retail business, so I was, I started off, so literally I got out of college, I had a liberal arts degree, I had gotten into grad school, I had gotten into Columbia and Johns Hopkins and some other schools to continue my education, but I really decided I didn't want to do that. And so, it was in 1982 in the middle of like a horrible recession, and I didn't know what to do, so I got a job literally selling shoes. I was in the shoe business for three years, I guess, and then a friend of mine from college, actually a friend of both of ours from college, her dad worked for Radio Shack, the now-defunct electronics retailer, and she got me an interview with Radio Shack. I had a 23-year career at Radio Shack, so at one point or another I ran all of the stores in eastern Pennsylvania, so I ran about 300 stores for them. The biggest territory they had. And then I did that for like 23 years. So I left there in 2004, and when their business model really started to shift and I was not pleased with where the company was going and I was, you know, like 40-something years old and I go like, you know, if I'm going to move, I gotta do it now, because my hair's getting grey, and I'm getting fat, and nobody's going to hire an old fat and grey guy, so I actually went to work, through a contact of mine, I went into the telecom business, and I was a vice president of sales and distribution for Vonage, the internet telephone company, so that's what I did after Radio Shack. I went from like this really established kind of traditional organization into the start-up world, and literally my desk for the first two and a half years was a card table, and it was just the most fun I ever had in my life I think at work was for those two and a half years, and then we went public, and you know, we all thought we were going to get rich, and that didn't happen, but when you go from like this ultra-entrepreneurial startup environment and then you go public, and now you have to comply with all these regulations and stuff like that, it was a little bit of a shift in what was going on. I was recruited away from them to go to work for Sprint, and I was in charge of the sales, consumer sales side, for Sprint's 4G business, when they were starting at 4G. You know, we're now in the 5G, and 6G's you know, on the horizon actually too in that business, but back then 4G was like the hot new thing in the wireless business, so I was in charge of all of their national consumer sales distribution for 4G for Sprint. They, in 2008 decided to merge our division into a new company with another company, called Clearwire at the time so we were involved in all that kind of merger activity, and I was offered the opportunity to go work in Seattle, essentially doing what I was doing for the new company, or I could take like a half a million dollars. So, you know, and the guy I would have been working for out in Seattle who I'd, you know, been working with in this merger thing was just, he was an asshole, so I decided to take the money (laughs), which came in a bunch of different ways. It wasn't just like cash. But the package was pretty lucrative, and really that allowed me to sort of sit back and go, "What is next?" And so, you know, in 2008 I was 50 years old, and you know, I could try to continue in a corporate world, and kind of do what I was doing, or I could go out on my own. And essentially what that money allowed me to do was have the freedom to give doing something on my own a try. So, I started my own consulting firm, and that firm doesn't look anything like it used to when it started, but at the time I was doing consulting work for a bunch of companies, but the biggest one was a company called Retail Business Development, and our business model was to help retailers who were struggling, and so literally what we would do is you know, and they're primarily in the wireless and telecommunications space, but like maybe you own 30 retail stores selling Metro PCS, the wireless carrier, and you were struggling, we would go in and consult with you and help you fix your business. And in many cases that was we would sign an agreement that you would turn over the keys to your business. The entire business to us, for a period of two years. And we would fix it. And that might involve closing stores, opening stores, relocating stores, firing staff, hiring staff. I mean literally we would, some of these businesses we tore them right down to the ground and rebuilt them from the ground up. And so, that took me back into the retail business. I was running about 350 retail stores. I was their senior vice president of operations and business development, and in the two years that I was working with them, we tripled the size of the business, landed a lot of new national accounts through my contacts, like you know, we were doing all of the in-store sales for DirecTV at Walmart, for example. So, every Walmart in the country, and things like that. So, it was just, again it was sort of like in that start-up sort of real entrepreneur-y kind of world, but me and the owner of that business sort of had a parting of the ways. We just wanted to go in different directions with the business, and then so I kind of was back starting square one again, and what do I do? And turned my business into a training and development firm. Because training is something that I always really liked doing. So, our business now is where we develop training and development programs for companies, really globally, so we have clients in the Caribbean, clients in Turkey, clients in Europe, the United States and Canada, and all kinds of different businesses, ranging from consumer electronics to adult pleasure products, so yeah, so one of my clients is the largest distributor of adult pleasure goods in the world. And we've written, a lot of our course stuff is electronic course work, computer-based training. We've written over 150 courses for them on how to use products. So, I know a lot more that I thought I would about things that I never thought that I would be selling, but. It's been an interesting experience. So, that's what I do now. But what that allowed me to do is by working from home, it started to give me the freedom, you know, as my wife was at work doing her job, she's a medical practitioner, is that every day I was able to be who I really am. I was able to be Corinne every day. And so, really my coming out process, my true coming out process started in 2008, when I left corporate world and started my own business, because it gave me the freedom, working from home most of the time, to really just be who I am. And you know, I came to the realization probably in, I guess in 2011, that I had to come out and really be genuine. My wife and I had a lot of difficult conversations, because partners transition right along with us, and family members transition right along with us. I think the other thing, by the way, that helped me with coming out, was that both of my parents died. And it gave me the freedom, I guess, if you want to call it that, to not have to worry about killing my father, because he was already dead. To be perfectly blunt. And to not have to deal with the judgement of my mother, which I think would have been very traumatic. But so, I started my transition, you know, kind of the coming out process in 2008, 2010. I transitioned full time socially in 2014, I guess. When we moved back here to the Lehigh Valley that's when that really started, and then medical transition started in 2016, so you know one of the things that many people don't realize is that transition involves a lot of things, right? So, I was actually just giving a training last night to some college students, and you know, people tend to think about transition, they tend to think about operations and medications. But really, it's sort of social transition, and a lot of people sort of socially transition but don't medically or legally transition. So, for me, social transition started around 2010, legal transition was just a couple years ago in 2018, and my medical transition started in 2016, and it's still an on-going thing, so. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. MF: Thank you so much for sharing. I'm wondering about the period of your life before the social, legal, and medical transition. What was it like to be Corinne, you know, on Sunday morning, or these just sort of selected parts of your week? How did you navigate that? What was that like for you during that time period? CG: So, yeah. Well, difficult would be I guess the best adjective, but probably a few things. So, one of the real challenges, and remind me to tell you about the second one if I forget, but one of the real challenges, and many people with transgender experience who are sort of living in this, you know, back and forth world, and many, many, many, many trans people do-- matter of fact, I would say the majority of trans people do-- is you're code switching all the time. So, you are, you know, mentally you are, you know in my case, a feminine space, or in the case of a transmasculine person, a masculine space, or you know, a non-binary person as well, but you are always having to put on this act. And so, I would have my girls' weekend, but I would feel like I was an imposter, right? So you have imposter syndrome, because in my case, I have body hair, and facial hair, and I don't know how to do makeup, or you know, I don't know how to whatever, so if I would go out, I would be just totally paranoid about, you know, people staring at me because, well, I'm still paranoid about people staring at me, but in a different way, but is that, you know, you're just not practiced, right? And then, when you switch back into, in my case, you know, into "dude mode," you know, there's just like this sort of mental break, and it is just so fatiguing. It is just, it just mentally drains you. And whether it's the imposter syndrome that you have, or it's that sort of, you know, having to kind of mentally switch back and forth, is just so hard. And then the other thing, well, the other thing that's hard, by the way, is that just this idea that you're having to hide, right? So, you know I would get my outfit out, or my clothing out, whatever it is, and then you know, it was, I used to store stuff in like plastic tubs that was like you know hidden in the bottom of a storage closet underneath, you know, our books from college, right? And so, you have to dig it all out, and then you pull your clothing out, it's all wrinkled and cruddy because it's been sitting in you know, in the basement with mildew, and you know, you put it on, and you don't feel right, and then you know, but then you gotta rush and put it all back because you know God forbid if you know a neighbor knocks on the door, or whatever, so you're just in this constant state of fear of being discovered. And I think this is one of the things that's different for many people in the LGBTQ community, or I should say the LGB community versus the trans community, right? Is that LGB folks can navigate the real world, right? So, you're not necessarily, you know, you're sitting home, you're watching TV, you're not worried somebody's going to discover that you're gay necessarily while you're watching TV. But if I'm, you know, was watching you know the Sunday morning news shows, but I was dressed as whatever, my next-door neighbor comes over to borrow a cup of sugar, and I'm discovered. And that is just a little bit different. And I don't mean to discount the fear and the stigma that LGB people have, but there's sort of a difference between being able to sort of move through the world with a little bit of invisibility, I guess I would call it, versus as a trans person, you are very visible. Especially when you're in transition, or you're not fully transitioned, you haven't started to medically transition. It can be really challenging. The other thing that I wanted to get at was because of that imposter syndrome, at least I know, and many people of trans experience that I know, overcompensate. So, for example, there's been studies that show that transgender people join the military at highly disproportionate rates, because they want to, you know if you're transfeminine, you're going to prove your masculinity. And you're going to, you know, become like, you know, an "army man," and you know, sort of beat it out of yourself I guess, right? And I know trans folks who have become like, you know, amazing athletes because they're trying to prove their masculinity, for example, if you're a transfeminine person. In my case, I became like this type A business executive who, you didn't want to get in my way. Matter of fact, my nickname back in the day, was "Evil Dave." And you know, I actually like to think that I was a pretty good boss, and I've actually had many people who say that I was a very good boss, but man, you didn't want to cross me. And I can make people cry in a heartbeat, and I did it, and I liked it, frankly. You know, I mean there were times when if you just, so my motto at the time was "Just do what I tell you to do, it's going to be okay." Right? And I was just this, I could be a total, total, pardon my language, asshole. And I was really good at playing that role. And I have a lot of regrets about that. Not because of decision-making necessarily, I didn't make but because I could have treated people better and frankly it was all an act. It was all an act. And so, you know, that overcompensation led to me living a disingenuous life for 50 years. And I look at those 50 years as 50 wasted years, and frankly a lot of the work that I do now I think, if I was to really look deep into my soul, is about trying to make up for those 50 years, and do the right thing by people, and to help people develop, and you know, get on a path that's going to make it so that they don't have to be on the path that I was. So. Probably a little bit of a mission there, which by the way, I don't think is really unusual for people who get into social services. There's usually some sort of mission, motivation going on back in there, but yeah, so. That's one of the problems I think that trans folk have, right, is code-switching and then imposter syndrome are really, really, really massive. I am so proud, especially of young non-binary people, who nowadays are able to navigate or working to navigate gender in a different way, where you know, wouldn't it be wonderful if we didn't have to fit into a gender box? You know, where you don't have to be this macho dude, or this hyper-feminine woman. You can just be genuine to yourself and on this whole spectrum of masculinity and femininity, you just find your place, and people support you in that navigation and being comfortable with the fact that these thing evolve, and everybody is sort of on their own path, you know some people move quickly across that evolution, some people move slowly across that evolution, some people stop in the middle, some people move back and forth, and I really think that, you know, we are at an inflection point where over the next sort of probably 20 years, hopefully I live long enough to see it, that these gender norms are just blown up, and we just start accepting people for who they are in this area, would make me very, very happy to see that. Yeah. MF: I do want to talk about, you talked about your career, I want to talk about Eastern PA Trans Equity, but first, since we're sort of still reflecting a bit on your earlier years, I'm wondering what was your relationship like with LGBTQ community spaces you know, prior to your social, legal, and medical transition? Were LGBTQ organizations on your radar? Were they not on your radar? How were you kind of thinking about gay liberation, trans liberation, and you know, kind of movements that were going on in the 80s and 90s? CG: Yeah, so, you know, back you know in the 80s in-particular, and even the early 90s, right, it was pre-internet, or pre-internet as we know it now, I should say, and so the way that you got involved with the transgender community in-particular, is that you went to adult bookstores, and you picked up magazines. Whether it was female impersonator magazine, or there was one called "TV/TS Tapestry," which was put out by IFGE in Boston for years, and you know, in the back of these magazines would be ads. You know, so they were filled often with you know, just pictures of people of trans experience often in pornographic or semi-pornographic modes, but in the back of these magazines would be personal ads, or ads for organizations, and two of the organizations back in the 80s that I was familiar with was, one's called Tri-Ess, which is still around, so Tri-Ess is the Society for Second Self, is what the three Ss stands for. And then another one was Renaissance. And what I did is I would, where we were living, I would get a post office box, and you know, sneak into my post office box and pick up my, you know, Tri-Ess newsletter, or my Renaissance newsletter, and furtively read it to go, "Here, there actually are people like me," and "Look, oh there's a picture of a lady with really big hair!" you know (laughs) or whatever, but they would sort of tell their stories, sometimes there would be personal ads, but that's really how you kind of communicated and found community back in the day. At the time, we were living in Upstate New York in the 80s, in Glens Falls again, and there was nothing. There was absolutely nothing locally, so my transgender life was lived vicariously through others in these newsletters. And then the dial-up internet happened, and actually there was, before AOL, there was a service called PC Link, and it was actually the progenitor of AOL, and I was working at Radio Shack as a store manager at the time, and we would sell this PC Link software that allowed you to go through a dial-up modem and find you know communities and I found a transgender support group, or cross-dressers support group I think it might have been called at the time. And I remember dialing in, you know, two or three times a month and getting into these chat rooms, and you know everybody talking about kind of what they're experiences were. Some of them were very sexual in nature, other times the conversations were very much about navigating coming out, or finding doctors, or you know, how do you do various things. But it was all very tentative, and very sort of closeted, at least on my part. You know, so I would do it when my wife was in the other room, and you know I didn't want to offend her, because the last thing I wanted was for my wife to leave me because I was leading this deviant lifestyle, I guess. I didn't want to scare her. But that's kind of how you found community, was like through these sort of like you know stealth newsletters. Things came in plain paper envelopes, you know, and but back in the at least especially in the late 80s/early 90s things started opening up a little bit and I became aware of some of these support groups. And they would often have meetings, although not near where I was living at the time, but Renaissance in particular, which was founded by a woman named Joanne Roberts along with a couple of other folks down in the Philadelphia area actually, is where they started, started opening chapters around the country. So, for example they had a chapter in Albany, NY, which is 50 miles from where I was living, and I was never brave enough to go to one of their meetings. But the way that you used to go to these meetings is you would be given a phone number to call, and that phone number was at a phone booth. So, somebody would say you need to call this number at seven pm on the 14th of the month, right, and you would call, and then somebody would be at this phone booth to answer the phone, because it was all super-secret, and they would interview you. Literally interview you about, you know,about who you are, to make sure that, then they might give you permission to come to a meeting at a super-secret place. So, you like you know you had to know somebody who knew somebody and that's the way a lot of these things really worked. So, you know you kind of fast forward to 2008 when I was, really made the decision to explore transition, I was looking for support groups and locally in the Lehigh Valley here, you know, I went into google and said like, you know, "Lehigh Valley support groups," "Allentown, Pennsylvania transgender groups," things like that, and there was nothing. There was nothing. By the way, there actually was something, you just couldn't find it. So, I remember going like, you know, "there's gotta be something!" And then I remembered Renaissance, this national organization that had things. I went to their website, and it said there was a Lehigh Valley group! And I go, like, "Oh!" You know, "Big win! Congratulations, Corinne!" And there was a website, and there was an address you could send a letter to. A post office box. Well, the website didn't work. It was just a dead end. And the post office box, I sent like three letters to it, and nothing ever happened. And this is one of the problems with a lot of trans support groups, is that somebody starts one, and then they might leave. And then it falls apart, right? These things are sort of you know based community, very community based, but luckily a couple years later, you know, through my therapist, she goes like, "Oh, I know somebody who knows somebody, and I'll get you connected." And, lo and behold Lehigh Valley Renaissance was there, it was just hard to find, and you had to go-- the phone booth was gone, so that was good news. But you know, you had to know somebody who knew somebody who knew where the meeting was and what time it was and where it was and things like that. So, I showed up for my first Renaissance meeting in 2014, maybe? 2015. And walked in, and I found a group of mature, white, women, trans women, some of whom identify as cross-dressers, some of whom identified as transgender, and I walked in there's like a little bowl of potato chips and you know, some cold pizza, and you know, iced tea, and I go to pour myself a glass of iced tea and this one person walks up and they said like, "Oh, you're new here." And I go like, you know, "Yes," and I remember going to this thing and man did I dress up. Like, I was wearing high heels and stockings and a killer skirt, and put my makeup on with a trowel, and you know, I was like really trying to be a girl. And this woman walks up to me, and she starts giving me a lecture on the right way to be transgender. Like, well THIS is how you have to do it. And I almost walked out. I almost walked out. Thank God I met Raquel Hebron who was the chapter leader for Renaissance who came over and saved the day, and she kind of you know just sort of put her arm around me, and she was like, "We don't care how you look, we don't care, you know, how you identify. You are welcome here, and we're here to help you." And I am so unbelievably grateful for that, because I probably would have never gone back, and maybe I would never have transitioned if it hadn't been for that intervention. There were probably, I'm guessing maybe eight people at that meeting. Lots of angst. Lots of people sort of you know complaining about life and you know all the obstacles that they encountered and things like that, but it was a really important start for me, in terms of like just starting to access resources, and that's, you know I kind of went to meetings you know for a few months. And there was another person, her name is Amanda, who was there and she, while not being a web guru in anyway, she went to Wix.com and started to set up a website. It was a little bit of a kluge, it was pretty rough, but you know at least people could kind of find us now, and then between me and her and some other folks, we started going like, you know, "This thing could be a lot more than what it is now." And so, while Raquel was still chapter leader and she would sort of run the support group meetings, we were doing a lot of work kind of on the backside. Frankly, I was paying for it out of my pocket, and we built a real website with lots of resources and like so, now you can go to the Renaissance website and download a list of therapists who are trans-affirming for the entire state. You know, you can, you know, find, you know, if you want to find a place to get your nails done, or where you if you're a trans guy you need to buy a binder, or whatever it is, there's all these resources available. Lots of articles. We started a blog, and things like that. You know, we optimized the site for search engine optimization, so you know now a days if you type in like "Lehigh Valley Transgender," we pop right up at the top, and it becomes easy to find. And those meetings have gone from where we would get like you know maybe half a dozen people would come to a meeting, the Renaissance meeting that we had just two weeks ago had 48 people at it. Which is just sort of controlled pandemonium. It's hard to have a support group meeting when you have 48 people, so we've had to kind of learn to manage those things differently. But that was really the start of what is now the Trans Equity project, is let's build something for the community that works for everybody. And one of the things that we've learned is that not everybody needs or wants a support group, right? Where you kind of come and sit around in a circle and you talk about your problems, and people give you solutions. Sometimes people just want to go to a website and find, you know, where can I find a doctor who will prescribe hormones. Or some people you know may not want to go to a website, they may want to go to a Facebook page, or an Instagram page and things like that, so we started building you know this sort of business plan around what should an organization look like, and about three years ago myself and some others started getting into some conversations and said okay, so if we had a clean sheet of paper, and we were going to build something new, what might it look like? And what it looks like is the Eastern Pennsylvania Trans Equity Project. So, myself and some other folx, trans folx in the area, trans-masc. folk, non-binary folk, we started to sort of you know meet at a Starbucks, or meet at you know one of our houses, and say, "What should-- if we were going to build something new, what would we build?" And I should say that in the intervening time, as Renaissance started to do more, we decided that you know, so for example, when I started coming to Renaissance meetings, Renaissance had maybe $100 in the bank at any given point in time. And you know, we would collect you know five dollars here or there from people coming to meetings, to you know to pay for the cold pizza and the carrot sticks and the iced tea. We had a little bit of money left over. But as we started to expand, you know, that five dollars started to add up, and we'd go like, "Well, what are things that we could do?" And one of the first things that we did is that there is a conference that happens every year in Harrisburg called the Keystone Conference. So, the Keystone Conference is where primarily trans-fem folx, but really anybody of trans experience, can go. It's a four- conference where they literally take over the entire Sheraton Hotel in Harrisburg. The only non-trans people there are the airline pilots who have a layover that night, and they like hanging out with the trans folx, frankly, because we party hard. But you know you go there and there's seminars that happen, you know like, so surgeons that come, doctors who come, therapists who come. Seminars on how to change your name, seminars on you know deportment, seminars on you know how to do makeup, seminars on you know, if you're a trans-guy, what is the right way to fit a binder, for example. Lots of workshops during the day. Lots of social activities at night. And when I went to my first one, it was literally a life-changing experience, because it's the first time I didn't ever feel tall. So, like you know there's a thousand other transgender people there, and I go and I'm like "Oh my God!" You know, "There are women here who are 6'8"!" You know? "I'm little! I'm petite!" (laughs) But it's a totally accepting environment, non-threatening, you're not worried about your safety, and that's when I go like, "Oh I can really do this, and I have the tools." So, one of the first programs that we started at Renaissance was a scholarship to send people to that conference. Because it costs about, you know, eight hundred dollars to go for the full time, for a hotel room, and meals, and conference fees. So, we started to pay for that. But we also realized there was liability involved, so we at that time the Bradbury-Sullivan LBGTQ Center was starting to open up, Adrian the executive director of the center needed a program, we needed insurance, and so we became a program of the Bradbury-Sullivan Center. So, you know Adrian got a ready-made program for trans people, and you know we got insurance to cover our liability. It was kind of like a great marriage of convenience. But over time, we started wanting to do more and more and more, and the mission that we started to put together didn't necessarily fit in with the mission of the LBGTQ Center. So, working alongside Adrian, and working with the trans community, we started to put together the plan for the Eastern PA Trans Equity Project. And our mission is to empower trans people while building community and fighting for social justice, and our vision is to be really the go-to source for resources for trans folk throughout ultimately all of Pennsylvania, but right now we support 14 counties across the Eastern part of the state. By the end of the year, I think it's going to be 20 counties. And we do a lot with very little. So, kind of our tagline is "Life begins now." And it's, from a mission perspective, it's really what is the one thing-- just one thing-- that we can provide to a person of trans experience, to help them navigate life better? And that started off really with legal name change assistance. So, if you think about all the places that you have to use your name, so if you want to buy a drink in a bar, and they card you, right? You have to show your ID, and you know, maybe you know, in my case, my ID said David, but I'm presenting as Corinne, and we've had it happen where people hand over their ID and then a bartender says, "Oh, so you're transgender then." And now the whole bar knows that you're a person of trans experience, and that puts you in physical danger. You have to show your ID if you want to buy a cell phone. You have to show your ID when you want to apply for a car loan. When you apply for a job, right? And you're hired for a job. You want to go through TSA because you want to fly somewhere. You, you know, have to show your ID all the time, and every time that happens, if it's mismatched to your gender, you're outed. And every time you're outed, you're literally put into physical danger. So, the first program that we launched was the name change project, where you can come to our website, you can download all of the legal forms that you need to complete your name change, automatically have them filled out, so you just enter in your name, your address, and you know, you're chosen name, and your current legal name, and all the forms are automatically populated. They come with step-by-step instructions, written in plain English, so that you can do it yourself and not have to hire a lawyer for $2,000. Then you can apply for a grant, where we will pay for your name change, so that you don't have to come out of pocket for that. And then we will mentor you all along the process. So, for example, this year, right now it's October 15th, we've helped just over 150 people complete their legal name change this year. And that is a life-changing thing. Other programs we have is that you can, if you're in transition, or maybe you're a teenager and you're going to school, or a college student you're going to college, and you're trans-masculine person, and you want a binder to help you to present more masculine, we will provide you with a binder for free. We've added, over the last two years, housing assistance, so you know if you're struggling with housing, we will pay your rent for you to keep you in housing. We actually did one not too long ago where a person was three months behind on their rent due to COVID, and the recession that's going on right now, and unemployment. We managed to negotiate away one month of that person's rent with the landlord, we paid two months of the rent to get them caught up, and we secured a letter from the landlord saying they weren't going to take any eviction process for 90 days. We provide food assistance for people who need to feed themselves, or their trans kids. We did four college scholarships for trans folk this past year. We do a scholarship to trans-affirming summer camp for trans kids. You know, the idea is like, what can we do besides the support groups? We run now six different support groups. But how do we really help somebody of trans experience get their life on track so that they can make a difference? So, we started the project in 2019, it's now two years later. It's 100 percent volunteer, nobody gets paid. So, you know, 85, 90 percent of every dollar donated goes directly to help people of trans experience. We have an education program where conferences like the Keystone Conference were canceled during COVID, so we decided to pick that up, and every couple weeks we do a workshop for trans folk and their family members, so we did one earlier this week on de-mystifying health insurance for transition. And how do you get everything you need to get surgeries, for example. We did one two weeks prior to that on "You Transition as Your Partner Transitions," so it's for spouses and partners of trans people. We've done them on surgery, we've done them on name changes, we've done them on, you know, mindfulness and how to deal with dysphoria, and you know, I'm just so proud of not only what I've helped to accomplish in building this project, but of all of our volunteers who put in their time and their effort to make the struggle easier, and to pay it forward for hopefully mainly for young folk, right? So, I mean, we'll help anybody of any age, but you know if we can help a trans kid, you know, get the binder they need that'll let them feel comfortable going to class, and then we help them get their degree so they can get a decent job, and we'll help them with their name change so they can get their name on their diploma, right? And we're sort of setting them up for success as they move forward, and it's just amazingly gratifying. Yeah. MF: Could you tell me a bit more about how you moved into the leadership of Eastern PA Trans Equity Project? You talked about going to a support group at Renaissance, and you talked about a group of people kind of meeting to imagine Eastern PA Trans Equity. I'm sort of more, I'm interested in that personal story of being a member, but then thinking, "No, I want to take a leadership role," with others, in collaboration with others, to really start something transformative in Eastern PA, that's connected to Renaissance, kind of building out of it, but also has a big vision for you know, directly helping trans people with specific challenges that they're facing in our region? CG: Yeah, so it was a coup d'état (laughs), so. So, essentially you know, kind of some of the current leaders of Renaissance were sort of very happy kind of doing what they were doing, and they are still happy doing what they are doing. And but we kind of just said, "like, listen. We think that we can do more," and I will raise my hand and say I was the ringleader in this, without a doubt, and but is it, you know, just through having conversations with other members of the community who said, like you know "What could we do? If you think about your transition, what was the most complicated thing? Or what was the thing that was the biggest, you know, pain in the rear for you?" Or whatever. And then we said, like "All right, so what if we could start building solutions for these, what might they look like?" And I was definitely the person who was behind, you know, kind of pushing all this stuff forward. You know, with input from other community members, but I was definitely the instigator, and ultimately it came down to, you know, I mentioned Adrian Shanker from the LBGTQ Community Center, so we said, "All right, we just want to kind of move in different directions. We're going to cooperate and help each other where it makes sense," but the LBGTQ Community Center is much more about cultural programs and things like that, whereas you know, we're much more about direct aid and intervention, right? So, think about it as the difference between your broad programs, so coming to seeing an art gallery showing, or a movie, or whatever it is, and you got 50 people. You know, our program is about how do we, you know, sort of belly to belly, one person to one person, make a difference in somebody's life. It's just sort of a different philosophy on how you help the community. And so, that was sort of kind of where we started from, is this idea okay so what is that one thing we can do for a person of trans experience to make a difference? Maybe it's a support group program, maybe it's one of these workshops, maybe it's a name change. Maybe it's helping to get them off of the street. But, you know, what are these things that we could do? And so we had a bunch of conversations, this is kind of going on in 2017, 2018, and then like I said, in 2019 is when we incorporated and started it, and then I sat down had a conversation with Raquel who was the group leader of Renaissance, and I said like, "Listen, this is what we're doing." And you know the Bradbury-Sullivan Center has decided that Renaissance really needs to go in a different direction, not be part of the center anymore, because we always were sort of a little independent anyway, like we never had our meetings at the LGBTQ Center, we had our meetings elsewhere. You know, we weren't going to give that up. So, I said like, "Listen, so here's the deal. So, you can go out and kind of become what you were ten years ago, or you can fold in underneath the Trans Equity Project umbrella. More than happy to have you do that. That gives you the [ear?] cover of having liability insurance and things like that." So, really Renaissance is the sub-brand, if you want to think of it from a marketing perspective, of the Trans Equity Project for our support group programs. So, like we have a group for partners and spouses, it is Renaissance Partners. We have a group that we've started up in the Poconos, that's called Renaissance Poconos. We have a group for non-binary folx, and it's you know Renaissance Beyond the Binary. So, Renaissance I guess if you want to call it that is sort of the sub-brand for our support group side, and everything else that we're doing is falling underneath the Trans Equity Project Side. But yeah, so I was the instigator, so I get the blame, good or bad. MF: I think the blame is all good (laughter). You mentioned when you were talking about doing some of the taking over workshops since Keystone was cancelled due to COVID, and you talked about a specific workshop that was for trans people and their partners, and that lead me to kind of reflect on, you know, when you were coming out more fully to your spouse, your wife, you were doing that without, you hadn't gone yet to Renaissance. How did you navigate that conversation? Did you have support? What sort of resources helped you with that conversation with your wife? And I guess there's a second question, is your experience in your marriage fueling some of the programming or workshops that you're building today? CG: Yes, absolutely! So, one of the things I think that-- so, transition, you know, when you're a person of trans experience and you decide to come out, and you know transition, you know, whether socially, medically, or legally, it is an inherently selfish act, right? It is an act often of self-preservation. Matter of fact you know, when people say things like "Oh, you're so brave to transition." It's not about bravery. It's literally about self-preservation, right? You know, the rate of suicide attempts for transgender people is at over 40 percent. And that's because people become so unhappy with the transition process, or the fact that they feel they cannot transition, or the stigma that's associated with being a trans person going to high school or whatever, and so we tend to become very, very self-absorbed, I guess, during that process. It's a very easy thing to do, and it's easy to lose sight of the fact that everybody around you transitions right along with you. So, my spouse, she's had to transition as well. Her transition looks different. But, for example, my wife has five sisters and a mom and nieces and nephews and cousins, and she has a huge family. I have one brother and that's like the extent of it. I guess I have a nephew now too. But basically, is that you know, she had to come out to all these people, and she's very close to her family, and she was worried about being rejected by them. You know, they live kind of in the sticks, they're very rural, you know, not what you would call social activists in any way, shape, or form, and so for her, she had to have a conversation with her mom about you know, I'm married to a woman now. And deal with all the questions that come with that. My son has transitioned right along with me, you know, so when I go to visit him in New York, and you know, we run into some of his friends, so he works in theater, so you know, we'll go to one of his shows and you know he'll introduce us to all of his coworkers on the show, on the crew, and you know, he has to navigate the fact that you know, this is my dad who is a woman, who has a deep voice and you know huge hands, and broad shoulders, and is six feet tall, right? And coming out for trans people never stops. Never stops. And frankly, it never stops for our family. So, we started our support group for spouses and partners, and that was based on my personal motivation of that my wife needed support, right. And you know I'll say that that group is just thriving, and the woman whose the spouse of another Renaissance member is a rock star and does an amazing job, and you know, one of the great things of COVID has been is that you know we started going virtual, so we have people who call into our virtual support groups, especially the spouses group, from California and Texas and Costa Rica, and you know, all over the place. And so, for example, we did the workshop you know on transition, you know as your partner transitions a few weeks ago, we had over 30 people on that from all over the country, and you know, and they were just so grateful because they all go like "There was nothing in Iowa for me, and I don't know how to navigate. I don't know what to do." And so, the gratitude is wonderful, but even better is the fact that we're able to provide some tools and some resources and just companionship for some of these men and women who are going through these transitions. I think it's really important. But getting back to my wife and I, so I'm a huge believer in therapy, so I had my therapist, my wife had her therapist, and then we had a couple's therapist, so we kept the entire therapy population in the Lehigh Valley in business for many years, I think. But so yeah, so my therapist was all about supporting me, my wife's therapist was all about supporting her, and then the couple's therapy was about okay, so let's make a plan on navigating. And literally just because this is kind of how I'm wired, but my wife and I built a spreadsheet listing all the people that we had to come out to, and how would we do it. So, you know, her mom, and her sisters would be a personal face-to-face conversation, right? Our son would be a personal face-to-face conversation. My business clients would be a personal face-to-face conversation. You know, my third cousin twice removed? Well, maybe that's an email. You know, certain friends was a phone conversation, and for other people was just like a Facebook post that goes like you know, "Ta-da!" You know. "I'm here now!" Right? "And take it or leave it anyway you want." So, you know we really, we built a plan together, and that was a lot of work. I think you know one of the things for spouses and partners and families is that, so the way my wife often talks about it, she goes like, you know "You've been thinking about this for your entire life." So, I'm going to be 62 in two weeks. I've been thinking about it for 59 years. And while my wife has known to one degree or another for 34 years, for a long time she didn't really have to think about it. Right? And so, she was like, "You've been thinking about this for 59 years, I've been thinking about it for five weeks. I need time to process." And you know, one of the things that would always happen is like, you know I would do something to push the envelope, right? I went out and got my ears pierced, and I never asked to my wife "So like, hey. Is it okay if I get my ears pierced?" I just got them pierced. Right? And she came home from visiting her mom, and I go, "Hey look! You know, isn't this cool?" And she'd go like, "Why didn't we have a conversation about this? Because now I'm going to have to explain this to whoever." And so, there were real times when I've had to slow my transition down to allow my spouse to catch up. And that's a hard thing for me to do, but it's, you know, I've been married to this woman for 40 years, I've known her for 45, we have built a life together, we have a wonderful child, and it's pretty important to me so I'm not going to lose it. I'm going to do everything I can to keep it. MF: How has your marriage changed over from first meeting each other in college, been married, how has that relationship grown and evolved for you across your lives together? CG: So, I'm not sure that if you kind of take the whole transgender thing just out of the picture, right, I think our marriage has very much evolved the way that many, many marriages do, right? Where you, when you first meet, you know it's about physical attraction, and exploring each other sort of like you know emotionally, and intellectually, and going like, "Oh, does this person, do I like having conversations with this person? Do I like hanging out with them? Does my family like them?" You know, and there's all this sort of initial stuff that you're navigating or you're working through you know when you're in the first few years of a relationship, right? You know, you break up, you make up, you break up, you make up. You know that-- at least we did a lot in college. And then you know you decide in our case to get married or to you know live together, and then you start building, right? So, you know, you buy stuff, and you get a house, and then you have a baby, or you adopt somebody, or you know, but and you start adding layer upon layer upon layer upon layer upon layer, and as you do that, the depth of the connection grows, right? You're growing roots. And then things also evolve, right? So, I can't tell you the number of people who've been married a long time, and they say you know "I'm married to my best friend." Right? So, this'll sound horrible because I'm still very passionate about my wife, right, but you know, but it's a different kind of passion, right? You know, to be honest, we don't have sex that often anymore, right? For lots and lots of different reasons. Some of which is because we're just freaking old! (laughs) And you know, we come home from work, and we just go like you know, "What's for dinner? I want to sit down and vegetate in front of the TV and watch Netflix," right? And then you know you have to go to bed and get up and do it all over again the next day, right? Like so you get into a routine sometimes. That routine is wonderful in many ways, right? And then you decide, "Hey, let's go to Europe and do something fun and spontaneous," or you know earlier this year we decided to take a train, overnight train trip to Chicago, and like the first time ever we got a little sleeper cabin you know, which is a whole experience in itself, but you know, you do different things, and you start to explore. My wife is a really avid quilter, and I am not. I'm a model railroader, so I have a basement full of railroad trains and the loft of our house just outside my office door here, my wife has all of her quilting stuff, and so she quilts on the third floor, I do my trains in the basement, and in the middle is like the common space, right? Where you know we meet for dinner, and we hang out with our friends, and whatever it is, so yeah. You know, marriage and relationships is a lot of work. And so, like I said, I'm a believer in therapy, so you know, when we had our child, not too long after we had our baby, right, which is a life-changing thing, we went to couple's therapy because we needed to figure out how to do it. And yeah, so. I'm guessing that someday we'll probably go to couple's therapy again, because it's just good for you to do it. MF: We're getting towards the-- thank you for sharing that. We're getting towards the end of our 90-minute time, but I wanted to just sort of kind of return to, there's so much going on in your life right now, your passion for your wife, your work life, and Eastern PA Trans Equity Project. I'm wondering, what is your vision of kind of moving forward for you? Either with Eastern PA Trans Equity Project, your career on-going, what is your vision sort of for the future? CG: Yeah. So, something I've been giving a lot of thought to. So, I own my own business, I own my consulting firm. You know, I have people that work for me to support my clients, and that business, you know at times it's a 60 hour a week job, other times it's a 30 hour a week job, but it's really important because it helps provide you know for our household, right? And I get a lot of satisfaction from helping my clients to become successful. Trans Equity Project is taking more and more and more of my time, frankly it's where my passion is right now, so it's probably a 30, 40-hour week gig for me right now, and then you know, obviously my marriage and our friendships with others, and you know our love for our son and his wife and helping him out. Those things all take priority too, right? So, it's a real juggling act. So, I anticipate that I'm probably two years from retirement, fingers crossed. During that time the Trans Equity Project will continue to grow and expand, and as part of that growth and expansion, we need to start thinking about succession planning, and what does it look like. Right now, it's 100 percent volunteer. Our budget is about $60,000 a year, which is not a lot of money. You're not going to hire staff and pay for staff with $60,000, and do all the other work that we're doing, so you know with our grants, you know this year we've given out so far $41,000 in grants, so with that $20,000 left over you know, we have to pay for insurance and rent and printing and postage and you know all this other stuff that we do. Support groups and everything else. We're going to need to figure out how to raise more money, and to create something that can be sustained long-- so we can decide to stay small and awesome, which we are right now, or we can decide to go bigger. And one of the things that, at least for me from my vision, is that in Pennsylvania, for trans folk, while there's not enough programming, you know in the City of Philadelphia there's a fair amount of programming and support of trans folk, and the same is true in Pittsburgh. But in between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, there's a whole lot of nothing. And I think we can fill that role. So, when you-- and we can do it virtually. So, if you think about legal name change: So, we can help people to mentor them through the process, that can be done over the phone or via Zoom webinar like we're doing right now. The grant can be provided you know via check or a transfer, financial transfer through the internet. The legal paperwork can be delivered you know through our website and through the internet. We can do that work for the entire state of Pennsylvania from in a virtual way. Really all of our grant programs are designed specifically to do that, so even though they're not part of our quote-unquote designated service area, I was on the phone the other day with somebody from Elk County, Pennsylvania helping them with their legal name change. I don't even know where Elk County is. It's somewhere out in you know, what we euphemistically call "Pennsyltucky," right? It is out in the western part of the state somewhere, and I think like 30 people live there. But, you know, trans folk in these rural areas need support, and I think from a vision perspective, we will have the opportunity to do that. It's really a matter of getting the money and the staff to support us doing that. So, succession planning is a big one. That's a big one for us probably over this next two to three years. And part of that conversation is also going to be, what do we do with the support groups. So, the support groups, by their very nature, pretty much have to be done in person, versus virtually. And by their very nature, they're local in focus. And so, if we decide to truly fill that gap between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, how do we deal with Renaissance, which is a Lehigh Valley-focused program. Or, you know, Poconos-focused program. And how do we, do we keep it? Do we transition it to an independent organization and make sure that it's set up for success? These are really important conversations strategically that we're going to need to have, and I think that for me, this next let's call it five years, that's a lot of what this is going to be about. MF: Well, we're at the end of our time, but before we close, I want to ask, Corinne, is there anything that you are thinking, "Oh, I wish I would have talked about that!" Anything at the end that you'd like to share? Personally, about your work life, anything that seems important upon which we can conclude? CG: So, I'll just say this. So, for me, transitioning is the best thing I've ever done in my life. And that may even include my marriage and the birth of my child. Because, if I hadn't transitioned, I may not be here to enjoy my life with my family. I may not be here to do the work that we're doing. Not everybody has to transition. You know, so I kind of talked about that evolution earlier. But we're here to support people no matter what, and if it looks like a transition, we want to make that easier. And that doesn't mean it's not going to be hard. So, you know, when I transitioned and I was coming out to my clients, for example, you know, in some cases it was awesome, right? So, like the client that sells sex toys? Yeah, they go like, "Yeah, we don't care." (laughs) You know, "We're into everything here." One of my other clients is like in the Fortune 50, they're a huge, very conservative organization, and they allow me to employ two people, so you know, if I lost them as a client, not only would it impact me, but it would impact two of the people that work for me. I probably would have had to let them go. And so, I was very worried about it. When I went to their offices and I sat down with my long hair in a ponytail and you know the last time I've ever, no sorry I shouldn't say that-- the second to last time I've ever had to wear a business suit, but, men's business suit, my main contact at this corporation said "Okay, so I guess that means you're getting a new email address?" And I go like, that's a win, right?! I don't think I could have had a better response than that, frankly, right? "So, oh we're just going to carry on and you're going to get a new email address. Please tell me what it is," right? I had other clients who just literally went dead silent on me and some even stiffed me on money they owed me, frankly. Luckily not a lot. But interestingly enough, one of those clients just reengaged with me like a month ago. Took them five years, but they did it. We, so I've muddled my way through, I'm a planner by nature, you know, had my spread sheet, but is it, there are people out there who will help you. Right? There will be, you know, that person might be me, it might be someone else completely, but that's really what it's about, is like we muddle through life, right? And not just in gender transition, you know. We have to muddle through figuring out new jobs, or buying a car, or you know, going to college or whatever it is, and if there's an opportunity for one person just to sort of reach out their hand and make one of those steps a little easier, then that's what it is. And so, I would respectfully ask that other people do that, right? Just you know when somebody comes out to you and says, "I'm a person of transgender experience," know that that is an act of revolution. Know that when that person comes out to you, they are scared to death. They are scared that they're going to lose you as a friend, or as a relative, or as a spouse, or a partner, as a business contact. They're afraid they're going to get fired, they're afraid they're going to get rejected. They're frankly maybe afraid that they're going to be physically assaulted. Just acknowledge the strength that it takes to do that, to say those words, and when we do our trainings on these topics with organizations, you know I was doing it last night with a college, is you know, we just say like, "When somebody comes out to you, just remember what a big deal it is." And then you just say three phrases: The first one is, "Thank you for telling me." The second one is, "It's going to be a change, but I'm here to help you through that." And the third one is, "No matter what, I'm with you." If you just do that, my anxiety level goes from you know, an eleven, down to a five. And then we can start having real conversations. So. That's my sermon. MF: Thank you Corinne. It was really an honor, a privilege to talk with you today. Thank you so much. CG: Well, thank you. My life is not particularly interesting. I'm kind of dull, frankly, but I really appreciate you taking the time out for this. MF: You are not dull at all. This was wonderful, I'm so grateful. I'm going to go ahead and stop the interview, but we'll stay on Zoom just to kind of conclude together, and I'll say thank you again. CG: Thank you! Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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01:33:58
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Corinne Goodwin, October 15, 2021
Description
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Corinne Goodwin describes her childhood in Yonkers, Long Island, White Plains, NY, and Glen Falls; she focuses on her experiences as a transgender girl and the transphobia within her family. For example, she shares how her mother responded when she found feminine clothing in her room by exclaiming that it would “kill” her father if he found out. Corinne describes hiding her transgender identity from family after these formative experiences even as she continued to express her femininity in secret. Upon entering Eisenhower College, Corinne continued to be closeted, but developed important life-long friendships and met her future wife, Deb. When they married one year after college, Corinne discusses remaining in the closet even as she had “girl” days in which she was able to express her full self. In 1987, when she and Deb found out that Deb was pregnant, Corinne came out to her wife. The spouses developed routines in which Corinne could be her “real” self when Deb and her son visited relatives. Corrine also discusses her work life. She describes her 23-year career with Radio Shack, managing hundreds of stores within eastern PA; her work as Vice-President of Sales for Vonage; and her development of her own consulting business and then training and development business.
Once she left the corporate world and started her own businesses, Corine describes coming out fully between 2008-2014 to everyone in her life, including her clients and living full time as her real self. She describes different parts of her transition, including social, legal, and medical transition. In other parts of the interview, Corinne discusses the import of support groups, like Renaissance, and how she developed the Eastern PA Trans Equity Project with other community members as well as their major work in our communities.
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LGBT-12
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2021-10-11
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Copyright remains with the interview subject and their heirs.
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https://lgbt.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/698e17af4ed4f3049ed078b183de6ff1.png
c6386d3a56d5aafff0f82c3ebf790f93
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
An account of the resource
In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Liz Bradbury
Interviewee
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Cynthia Rodriguez
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_31a.xml
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5.4 July 20, 2020 Cynthia Rodriguez, July 20, 2020 (Part 1) PH40_31a 01:12:29 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Cynthia Rodriguez Liz Bradbury video/mpeg RodriguezCynthia_2020072020_video.mp4 1.0:|23(8)|44(7)|71(8)|106(11)|141(16)|172(14)|199(2)|222(12)|245(2)|266(15)|291(7)|322(12)|363(4)|386(4)|409(15)|432(12)|451(6)|476(5)|501(17)|528(4)|547(14)|572(10)|593(5)|612(10)|633(15)|654(5)|675(2)|706(5)|731(3)|752(4)|783(6)|800(8)|821(5)|844(3)|863(9)|902(5)|925(4)|948(5)|967(10)|990(15)|1013(13)|1040(12)|1063(10)|1086(11)|1105(14)|1130(11)|1153(12)|1174(7)|1201(13)|1224(10)|1247(13)|1270(14)|1303(7)|1322(6)|1349(11)|1380(16)|1405(12)|1426(14)|1455(8)|1474(12)|1507(7)|1540(11)|1567(5)|1590(12)|1621(11)|1640(5)|1661(9)|1684(16)|1703(4)|1730(3)|1749(11)|1784(13)|1815(5) 0 https://youtu.be/NTfNbI4wEBk YouTube video 0 Interview Introduction CYNTHIA RODRIGUEZ: Okay. 
 ; 
 ; LIZ BRADBURY: I have this little backup recording where I’ve got the voice recording too just in case the thing doesn’t work or record. And I’m going to read you this, this thing. So with this project the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of -- oh, wait, I didn’t do some stuff. I’ve got to pin you, I forgot to do that, and I forgot to turn off my phone. I’ll start again. Pin video and I got the audio on. Okay. And I just want to be sure my phone is off. (clears throat) I’m sorry. 0 243 Current living/work/school situation LB: Okay. These are just general things. You can talk about anything you want, but just to check in, let’s start with some basic questions and ask who’s in your house with you? 
 ; 
 ; CR: My mom -- 
 ; 
 ; LB: So you’re -- 
 ; 
 ; CR: -- my mum.
 ; 
 ; LB: Okay, so that’s cool. You’re both there all the time? Are you working?
 ; 0 368 Missing summer classes because of upcoming surgery LB: So what’s it like being a student? And now, you’re doing everything online, I would assume. Are you taking classes in the summer?
 ; 
 ; CR: I did not have to take any classes this summer because originally, I was supposed to get surgery on my left foot, which did not happen because of COVID because they had cut out elective surgeries when the pandemic started. 0 438 Thoughts on Cedar Crest College opening back up/taking classes during the pandemic LB: Do you think that Cedar Crest will open for students, or is it all going to be online? 
 ; 
 ; CR: So far, what we’ve heard, but of course, things can change because they’ve been changing so quickly like all the time depending on how it’s going with the pandemic. As of right now, we are supposed to get what they’re calling a hybrid now experience in the fall, which honestly, I’m used to it anyway because I usually pick at least one online class per semester, so that’s a normal thing for me. 0 756 How the pandemic has changed school life/artistic work CR: They really give you opportunities there to even perform at the school. We had, prior to all this going down, like a student showcase every month that we would perform, show what we learned, so I was already performing with my guitar. The theater club held this big show at the end of the semester in our big main theater. 0 945 Keeping mom healthy during pandemic/keeping outings minimal LB: So have you been pretty much staying in, or what have you been doing? 
 ; 
 ; CR: Well, definitely like everybody else during quarantine, we stayed put here. We don’t really take any chances. I’m very protective of my mom. Even after green light or not, I don’t care about all that. 0 1075 Receiving government aid LB: Yeah, have you gotten additional money from the government or as you --? 
 ; CR: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s helped a little bit and the fact that we don’t have a mortgage anymore because we’ve had this house forever. All those little things helped a lot. 
 ; 0 1098 Communicating during the pandemic/Keeping busy during the pandemic/Coping with personal difficulties LB: So have you been communicating with a lot of people on media like this or by phone or texting or -- more than you would normally do compared to...? I would guess that you’re very involved with MCC, wouldn’t you say that? 
 ; 
 ; CR: Oh, yeah, yeah. But I’ve kept very, very busy. We’ve known each other for a while. You know I keep very busy with a lot of activities and I stay... From the beginning of this pandemic, I made a decision to keep some kind of structure in my life like a schedule because it’s so easy to fall into this rut. 0 1628 Friend who had to leave Italy during pandemic/Knowing people who have contracted Covid-19 LB: Let me ask you something. Do you know anybody that’s had the -- have -- has had the coronavirus or anybody that like [who got that?]?
 ; 
 ; CR: Actually, yes, especially in the beginning because I think a lot of people did not... They weren’t taking it seriously, I don’t think, you know? And so I think people were a lot more careless in the beginning because they just didn’t know before everyone’s wearing masks and I don’t think... 0 2165 Protecting self and family from catching Covid-19 CR: I feel like it’s just too new for us to really nail anything down, to really know about it. So with all that, that’s all I need. I just protect myself across the board. I don’t care what’s like -- unless they really learn about it, figure it out, get a vaccine, whatever, I feel we’re going to take these precautions the rest of the year until next year. 0 2330 Participating in the Black Lives Matter movement CR: And speaking of that, the other thing that I got involved with unfortunately, not that I was trying to do that now during COVID, I’ve been part of the Black Lives Matter movement the whole time it’s been around, for seven years now, I think, ish. And since like Trayvon Martin times, been involved with that, been using actually the same signs that I made a long time ago at my old studio, and I wasn’t going to do that. 0 2492 Thoughts on Dr. Rachel Levine/Governor Tom Wolf's handling of the pandemic LB: What do you think about...? And then one of the things we have here in the state of Pennsylvania is that we get to see Dr. Rachel Levine on the news, and she’s the secretary of health. Have you had a chance to see her? She’s transgender, and she is speaking about -- I mean, we really have pretty good leadership in the state of Pennsylvania. Has that affected you, or have you had a chance to see that? 
 ; 0 2668 Frustrations over state opening too soon/People not wanting to take Covid precautions CR: I really wish we had done that longer honestly. I wish we’d have done... I’m just being honest about that. I feel like we opened too soon. I think we went the whole business as usual too soon, and now, we’re seeing a spike. It’s totally going to affect the -- all school for everybody across the board and for the whole country. 0 2958 Concerns over children returning to school during pandemic/for parents during pandemic/caretakers and healthcare workers CR: That’s a big concern for me for people when kids go back to school. I think that’s my biggest concern is kids coming -- basically coming back home and bringing this stuff -- even if they’re not sick, if they don't have symptoms coming home and infecting their parents, grandparents. That’s a big concern of mine. 0 3132 Working at the Allentown Women's Center and concerns for former colleagues CR: I used to work at Allentown Women’s Center for six years, all my best friends work there. Oh, that’s been like a nightmare just worrying about them, and every time I talk to them, not being able to be close to them any time soon, like, “You guys, really be careful,” and it’s -- 
 ; 
 ; LB: Are they open? 
 ; 
 ; CR: -- and praying for them every day. Hmm?
 ; 0 3308 Uncertainty over how the pandemic will pan out LB: We’re still in the beginning of it too. 
 ; 
 ; CR: Huh? 
 ; 
 ; LB: We’re just at the beginning of it too. We don’t even know what’s going to happen. I mean if people are looking at this video of you talking thirty years from now, they know what happened. 0 3377 Source of hope during pandemic LB: What’s giving you hope? I mean, what’s the best thing that’s happened out of this, or what’s really giving you hope, or generally, what gives you hope? 
 ; 
 ; CR: I think the biggest thing that’s kept me together like mentally, emotionally, everything is probably I’m really grateful for my spirituality honestly. 0 3434 Importance of staying connected digitally/having support systems CR: I think is really important for people to have that support system and a Zoom account (laughs) to really connect with people because it is -- I feel bad for anyone that doesn’t have that connection via... Like if they don’t have good internet or a laptop or whatever, I really feel for them because that’s like the lifeline for most people to the outside world. 0 3521 Using Tinder during the pandemic/Forming a romantic relationship during the pandemic LB: Are you using any dating apps or any queer dating apps or anything? 
 ; 
 ; CR: (laughs) Yeah, Tinder is probably not the best --
 ; 
 ; LB: (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) 
 ; 
 ; CR: (laughs) Yeah. Yeah, I feel like you have to be really, really careful. Shoot, I haven’t done like online dating app [00:59:00] or anything for years. 0 3653 Heightened feelings of loneliness during the pandemic CR: If somebody wasn’t partnered before this went down, this is like -- then it’s been -- I know it’s been tough for people. I got lucky, but I know like that’s -- it is what it is though. Huh?
 ; 
 ; LB: I think people who are living alone, completely alone, it’s very, very hard for them. 
 ; 0 3756 Thoughts for the future LB: So we’re pretty much at the end of this. I wanted to just ask you in the future, we hope that somebody -- well, I think people will look at these. These are very interesting artifacts because comparing this to the flu that happened a hundred years ago, a hundred and two years ago, the flu epidemic of 1918, they didn’t have social media then. 0 4154 Wanting to get in contact with old friends from Spain LB: You spent a lot of time in Europe or you were in Europe last year for three and a half months, and I’m sure you have friends in other countries too that -- have you been communicating with those people in other countries about what that -- their experiences were, or was it mostly students that were from here that you were around? 0 4263 Conclusion LB: Yeah. Well, this has been a great interview. I really, really appreciate you taking your time to do this with me today, and -- 
 ; 
 ; CR: Thank you. 
 ; 
 ; LB: -- I appreciate it very much. 0 MovingImage Cynthia Rodriguez talks about how the current COVID-19 pandemic is affecting her, her friends and family, her experience as a full time student and her work as an artist and musician. She also talks about prayer and meditation and civil rights activism including Black Lives Matter. Cynthia Rodriguez Part 1 2020-07-20 CYNTHIA RODRIGUEZ: Okay. LIZ BRADBURY: I have this little backup recording where I've got the voice recording too just in case the thing doesn't work or record. And I'm going to read you this, this thing. So with this project the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of -- oh, wait, I didn't do some stuff. I've got to pin you, I forgot to do that, and I forgot to turn off my phone. I'll start again. Pin video and I got the audio on. Okay. And I just want to be sure my phone is off. (clears throat) I'm sorry. CR: Make sure I don't get interrupted. (speaking Spanish) Sorry. LB: (Spanish), right? CR: Yeah, yeah. LB: Okay, I'll start again. With this project, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury, and I'm here with Cynthia Rodriguez to talk to her about her experiences in the Lehigh Valley community during this time of the COVID-19 epidemic as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive. We're meeting on Zoom on July 20th, 2020. So thank you so much, Cynthia, for being willing to speak with us today. To start, can you please state your full name and spell it for me please? CR: Sure. It's Cynthia, C-Y-N-T-H-I-A, Rodriguez, R-O-D-R-I-G-U-E-Z. LB: Okay. And will you please share your birthdate? CR: Sure, it's 04/29/71. I am forty-nine years old. LB: Okay, and what town are you in? CR: I'm in Allentown, Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania. LB: Great. This is the consent portion. So do you consent to this interview today? CR: Yes, ma'am. LB: Okay. Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable formats? CR: Yes. LB: Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats including films, articles, websites, presentations, and other things we may not even understand now because it'll be -- CR: Yeah. LB: -- in the future? Great. Do you understand that you'll have 30 days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview and identify parts you'd like to delete and or withdraw from the project? You can withdraw the whole thing if you --? CR: Yes. LB: So what is your zip code? CR: It is 18109. LB: Okay, and you just stated your age. You said you're forty-nine. CR: Yes. LB: And how do you identify within the LGBT community? So you could say anything about how you identify within the community. CR: I would identify myself as a soft butch lesbian. LB: Okay. And here are some things to talk about, and we can talk about all sorts of different -- and would you say that you're cisgender? CR: Yes. LB: Okay. These are just general things. You can talk about anything you want, but just to check in, let's start with some basic questions and ask who's in your house with you? CR: My mom -- LB: So you're -- CR: -- my mum. LB: Okay, so that's cool. You're both there all the time? Are you working? CR: Yeah, I work part time. I've been mostly working part time since I went back to school as a full-time student. LB: Uh-huh. So what are you doing? CR: I clean part time. I was working at Stonewall for -- as a security for a few years, and that ended this year especially with everything closing. LB: Yeah. So -- LB: And I'm a full-time student. CR: Oh, so you're still a full-time student? LB: Yes, I am right now. I graduated from LCCC with an associate's in general studies, and now I've been -- I'm in Cedar Crest College. I am an art therapy major, and, God willing, I'll be graduating in the spring and going into their master's program in the fall. CR: A master's in Cedar Crest? LB: Yes. CR: Oh, cool. LB: And -- CR: Yeah, I'm planning to do it all the way. I'm going to get -- go for my doctorate after that, hopefully at Drexel in art therapy. LB: Uh-huh. So your master's will be in art therapy too? CR: Yeah, I'm getting a bachelor's in art therapy at Cedar Crest in the spring, then from there immediately, I'll be going into their master's program for art therapy in the fall, so I can get my license to practice. And I plan on continuing my education for art therapy hopefully at Drexel because there are very few places in the northeast that do that, that offer that program for art therapists, so yeah. So my ultimate goal is to have my own practice and hopefully come back to Cedar Crest as a professor. LB: Oh, cool, that'd be neat. Yeah. So what's it like being a student? And now, you're doing everything online, I would assume. Are you taking classes in the summer? CR: I did not have to take any classes this summer because originally, I was supposed to get surgery on my left foot, which did not happen because of COVID because they had cut out elective surgeries when the pandemic started. And by the time they allowed it, it was too late for me to do that since class is starting soon, and there's a long recovery time for the type of surgery I'm getting. It's about a few months of recovery time at least because it's the Achilles tendon. LB: Oh, God, yeah. CR: Yeah, I had it done on my right foot when I had a bone here -- a bone spur removed. I was laid up all summer. That was five years ago, and they said that I would eventually have to get it on my left foot, which that would have been this year because I can only do that during the summer because of school. So since that didn't happen, it's been postponed till next summer after graduation. LB: Do you think that Cedar Crest will open for students, or is it all going to be online? CR: So far, what we've heard, but of course, things can change because they've been changing so quickly like all the time depending on how it's going with the pandemic. As of right now, we are supposed to get what they're calling a hybrid now experience in the fall, which honestly, I'm used to it anyway because I usually pick at least one online class per semester, so that's a normal thing for me. However, if things change, students may have to switch some classes because it's some things -- I don't know how they're going to navigate that as far as classes that we really need to do live, hands-on especially being like an art/psych major, which is basically what an art therapy major is. I can see maybe one, possibly two classes that I can do online. The rest, I don't know because it's -- I'm supposed to take printing, print shop this fall, so I don't know how that's going to work. With the ceramics class, our professor got creative thankfully. He basically sent us home with a bunch of clay and told us to make stuff, and (laughs) he was much more lenient. He was like, "You can be abstract." I'm thinking of course, you know, and we would like video and all kinds of stuff. They do the best they can. We did that for art therapy and -- but for... We'll see. And then for music, I minor in music, it depends on the instructors, which are basically like independent contractors there anyway, that you meet one-on-one. I take an instrument every semester. I have learned guitar, piano there, and this semester, I'm supposed to do drums. I don't know how that's going to work. I did plan on getting my own set anyway, so I don't know. We have to get creative. Maybe they can teach me while I have my drum set in front of the laptop. I have no idea. It's going to be a lot of fun trying to figure it out. Everyone jokes that I'm trying to become my -- a one -- because I sing too, my own one-woman band, so... I love music, and I love having that opportunity at Cedar Crest to learn all these instruments. After this semester for my last undergrad semester, I was planning to learn sax. So if I'm done there, I'll have like four instruments at least under my belt, but -- so things like that. Depending on how they figure that out, I may have to switch classes last minute. Honestly, I'm really trying to stay flexible mentally to be ready for anything and just go with the flow. Because these days, I feel if you don't have that mentality, you can just really go nuts. And I know that that may not vibe with the people that are not too good with change and are so accustomed to like a set schedule and so structured. But you really can't be like that these days. You know, this pandemic I realized, well, you kind of have to go with the flow or you're going to really stress yourself out. LB: Yeah. Do you have a saxophone? CR: No, but I would totally be getting one (laughs) if it all works out well for the spring. Amazon is your best friend during quarantine. LB: (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) in a way, yeah. I was going to say I have a C saxophone, which is a -- CR: Nice. LB: -- which I will be happy to give you for as long as you want. CR: No way, wow. LB: I haven't used it in a long time. I was studying clarinet, and one of the things I found -- and I don't want to be discouraging you -- but if you've never played the saxophone or clarinet before, it's hard to learn it as an adult. Like piano and guitar is pretty -- and -- but like Trish and I, she wanted to learn violin and I wanted to learn clarinet actually, they just -- it's very hard to learn those as adults. You can pick up piano great but -- [boy?]. But anyway, so I have a C saxophone with a mouthpiece and everything. CR: Oh, great. LB: That's a marching band saxophone. So it's not really the jazz kind, but it's like a regular saxophone. And so if you want to have that, I will lend that to you probably forever because I can't imagine -- CR: (laughs) LB: -- as I -- CR: Permanently borrow your saxophone? LB: You could permanently borrow. I can't imagine me needing this and if -- CR: Thank you. LB: -- and I said to Trish, "I wish I knew somebody that needed to borrow the saxophone, I would be happy to --" CR: That would be great, thank you, thank you so much. LB: Get to that point, feel free, and I will lend you. CR: Great. LB: I haven't used it in a long time. I had it refurbished right before when I was using it, but that was a long time ago, so I don't know -- CR: Oh, wow. LB: -- if it works. CR: Yeah, it's been great. They really give you opportunities there to even perform at the school. We had, prior to all this going down, like a student showcase every month that we would perform, show what we learned, so I was already performing with my guitar. The theater club held this big show at the end of the semester in our big main theater. To be onstage with the whole school, I mean it was great. It was great. I felt like a rock star because I have an electric guitar as well, and I was doing that. They're fantastic. I mean we had a lot of... That's going to be the kind of -- like one of the tougher things going back, not really being able to fully enjoy like some of the activities that we had. Like, we have a great theater department. I was heavily involved with that. I was part of their stage crew backstage like painting, building sets. And the biggest thing that I'm warned honestly like with the creative things there was they were going to do this play this past semester called Silent Sky, which I was really excited about. The head of the theater department took me out to lunch last summer when I came back from studying abroad in Spain, and she gave me the script to read and offered me a solo art exhibit in the lobby of the theater to go with this play, like a whole woman-centered kind of exhibit to go with the play. Because the play if you're not familiar with it, it's like that one movie Hidden Figures about the female astronomers or NASA, working in that?. Yeah, it was similar to that. I think it was a true story too. So we had this whole thing. They had just printed -- they had just printed the posters for me for my exhibit right before the school shut down -- LB: No. CR: -- in mid-March. Oh, it was... That would have been a huge break. I was already in the middle of working on these four major, big, installation mixed-media pieces I had set. I got the approval of like the cabinet, the school, the president who -- oh, actually she's -- we're -- really we're real tight over there at the college, Elizabeth. I had her on my radio show that I had there, and she was like, "Oh, I'd love to have you back here as a professor." She's really cool, Elizabeth Meade. But, yeah, I was really excited. I went through this whole approval process. I even had my own art assistant and I was doing all this stuff working with the theater department excited about having the show and a reception and the whole thing and then, boom, then that happens, so we closed. LB: Yeah, that's tough. CR: Yes. LB: So have you been pretty much staying in, or what have you been doing? CR: Well, definitely like everybody else during quarantine, we stayed put here. We don't really take any chances. I'm very protective of my mom. Even after green light or not, I don't care about all that. Because I feel green light does not mean the pandemic is over, which I think people have been confusing the two. Yeah, she's been like grounded for months now. But she goes out like when -- with another immediate family member. I mean, we basically have a hazmat thing on her because we don't want to take any chances. I have an elderly parent, and we're both actually immune compromised. I have diabetes, so I have to watch. It was -- [unless changed?] that it's probably not one of the best things to have during this pandemic right now, diabetes. So I've been really, really careful, very minimal contact to no contact with anybody. And honestly, Liz, it's not even more for me. I will probably survive for the most part, but I don't think she would, so I can't -- I don't take any chances with that. LB: Yeah, (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) -- CR: We keep it very minimal. I don't go to many places other than my part-time job. I clean a doctor's office a couple of times a week, so I was considered essential, so I never stopped working for this cleaning service. I was thankful for that, you know, so... I haven't stopped working throughout the whole time. But fortunately, I get to work by myself, so I didn't have to worry about being around anyone. LB: Yeah, have you gotten additional money from the government or as you --? CR: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.That's helped a little bit and the fact that we don't have a mortgage anymore because we've had this house forever. All those little things helped a lot. LB: Yeah, that makes a big difference. CR: Oh yeah, a big, big difference. LB: It's (inaudible) how that changes. So have you been communicating with a lot of people on media like this or by phone or texting or -- more than you would normally do compared to...? I would guess that you're very involved with MCC, wouldn't you say that? CR: Oh, yeah, yeah. But I've kept very, very busy. We've known each other for a while. You know I keep very busy with a lot of activities and I stay... From the beginning of this pandemic, I made a decision to keep some kind of structure in my life like a schedule because it's so easy to fall into this rut. I would joke about it nonstop when it first started. I was posting on Facebook, but I will be like, "There is no excuse to not wear pants people," you know, like yeah... (laughter) And I've had to push myself, but I would -- especially with school and being online, just it can be like -- you can get lazy. I would make an effort to just keep the routine. I would get up every day, take a shower, brush my teeth, put on real clothes. I didn't want to roam around in pajamas all day. That was a huge, huge thing for me because I know how it's so easy to fall into. It's so easy, so I really made an effort. Even if I was going to stay in the house all day, it didn't matter. We have a yard and stuff. Fortunately, we get to like go outside and not be cooped up all day. But almost from the beginning, I started going to the park more. I go almost every day to our local park just to -- even if it's just to get some air and sunshine. I wasn't going to be cooped up for just -- yeah. I thought that was really important. With the activities, well, school kept me till the end -- almost the end of May, I want to say -- no, like mid-May. That kept me pretty busy because I had six classes, so that's enough to keep you busy for a while. Other than that, after that ended, I realized I had to -- other than working a little bit, I had to do more things, so... During this whole thing, I joined the Red Cross, and I've been in training for one of their jobs, a caseworker but -- that you could do online. That was like a safe job. But now, I want to expand to like in-person stuff, possibly transport blood and things like that from blood drives and things like that. There's like a million jobs they had there, volunteer work that you can do for them. As of right now, what I've been doing lately for them -- to help clients that seek help from the Red Cross. I'm one of their Spanish interpreters now, so that's been -- you know, that's just on the phone or, yes, that can be via Zoom or whatever, but there are plenty of meetings, opportunities. They provide free training on a lot of stuff when you're a volunteer, first aid, CPR, etc., which I'm certified in all that anyway because of prior jobs but... So I did that to occupy my time, and I just felt like I wanted to give back and help the community a little bit in the pandemic. Because you can just get in your head a lot and just feel sorry for yourself about it, and I'm not about that. It was like I just want to get out of my head, help other people, and just be proactive about it, you know? Like, you can be proactive during a crisis like this just like anything else and just do your part. So other than that, I took up learning American Sign Language. I've been taking an ESL course because I love learning different languages, and I've always wanted to learn sign language. So I'm working on becoming trilingual, and I want to practice with other people via Zoom that speak as well. With one, I've been doing that with a friend of mine. So I'm doing that, and, yeah, just I, like, over cope. I do a lot of stuff and play my guitars, keyboard, and writing, doing art. It's a ton of stuff. And I feel like the other thing that I've heard a lot from the beginning of the pandemic that I've never -- I never had to deal with even during the crisis, oh, I'm bored, I'm bored. Boredom seemed to be like a huge issue with people when it first started and I guess even now, but I'm never bored. That's not even part of my vocabulary. (laughs) Like before crisis, after, during, whatever, I still feel like I don't even have enough time in the day usually to do everything that I want to do because I feel like it's really what you make of it. And I can be indoors forever, and I'll never find -- like I'll never not find something to do. I always write a to-do list every day, I've never stopped, I've been doing that for years. I'm also in recovery. So I was a sponsor, and I do step work in Al-Anon for friends and families of alcoholics. I'm not one myself, but you basically follow the same program. So that's kept me busy too as of last about a year or so I've been in it. And so I do that and I'm now the chair the -- the new chair of the meeting every Friday night. So I work on that. My relationship ended that I had almost a year and a half. She was an alcoholic, so I got into Al-Anon to kind of be a support or whatever, but unfortunately, that ended during the beginning of the pandemic. And so that was probably the hardest part for me was dealing with a double whammy, oh, pandemic and a breakup, yay, things are great, so... (laughs) But I have a big support system, family, friends, people from church, and just everybody, so I made it through. The professors were great. Everyone was very patient and understanding about, like, everything. So I got through that. I decided to stay in the program for myself because it's still good. So everybody could use that probably. So I do that. So, as far as communicating with people, I've never stopped. It's been like business as usual just like via the internet, and it's been fantastic, and I had no problems with it. I'm practically in Zoom meetings Monday through Friday with all different people with -- I talk to my advisor, the therapist. And I have a behavior specialist for adult ADHD that I was diagnosed, which would explain all my activity probably a lot, and I'm on medication for that Adderall, so I have a shrink I talk to once a month about that. And, yeah, my sponsor, advisor from school. So I'm basically in the meeting, and plus, I do Zoom things, like I said, with sign language. I do guitar jams with a friend from Georgia who was my roommate in Spain. So I keep super busy like... But that's Monday through Friday, Zooming all week, and I've been involved with a big online lesbian community, lesbians around the country, Canada, and Europe that I talk to regularly almost every day with this chat forum, and we meet via Zoom. So I keep really, really busy with all that stuff. I just have to close this door just real quick so -- LB: Okay. CR: -- just to minimize noise a little bit. (pause) CR: Sorry about that. LB: No problem. CR: I'm just like rattling, but it's been really -- LB: Well, let me -- CR: Huh? LB: Let me ask you something. Do you know anybody that's had the -- have -- has had the coronavirus or anybody that like [who got that?]? CR: Actually, yes, especially in the beginning because I think a lot of people did not... They weren't taking it seriously, I don't think, you know? And so I think people were a lot more careless in the beginning because they just didn't know before everyone's wearing masks and I don't think... You know, the weird thing is -- well, not like funny, funny, but when this all started months -- maybe by the beginning of March, I already definitely could tell that it was going to be bad. I knew like for some -- like I knew it was going to get to this point, and people thought I was being paranoid including my ex-girlfriend and her mom. It's funny like as this was all approaching and I just saw the signs, and I remember talking to them about it. Like, I was, "This is going to be -- this is really going to be bad. This is going to big. I think everything is about to change really soon," and they were like, "Oh, no, no, don't worry. This is just going to pass by like Y2K." (laughs) LB: Oh. CR: I was like, "Y2K? I don't think so." (laughter) I'm like, "I don't think so. I think this is really going to hit everybody like they're not expecting it." Because I was watching Europe and everything, and I knew it was going to be bad. I knew something big was coming, and I had a friend from school who was kind of stuck in Italy for a minute. Because the way -- I went to Spain last spring, it was her turn this summer, and she was in Rome, and I felt so bad for her. I had a bad feeling that it was going to be very short-lived, and she had been planning for this for a year and so excited, and then halfway through the trip, they sent her home. They cut off all study abroad programs, and I'm like, "Wow, I had a good time last spring." I was there three and a half months. That was fantastic. She had to come home because that was just when Italy was closing basically, and if she wouldn't have left when she did, she would have totally been stuck over there, you know, so... I remember already by mid-March, I had started getting masks and all kinds of stuff. And I remember getting -- giving my ex and her mom supplies just before all this started, and they thought I was just being paranoid, which I kind of am naturally anyway, but it was really coming in handy, you know? I remember bringing them -- towards the end, I brought this box. I'm like, "I'm calling it -- this the anti-COVID box." I brought them a bunch of -- this was, yeah, like before mid-March -- a bunch of latex gloves, masks, sanitizer before they all started going off the shelf, and I remember they laughed at me. They were like, "Oh, no, this is --" I'm like, "Hold on to this. Trust me, you're going to need it," you know? LB: Yes. CR: And what happens? I was thinking to myself afterwards ; I'm like, I'm sure they're sitting around thinking, yeah, she called it. LB: Yeah, she called it. CR: (laughs) Yeah, so... LB: So you know people who've had it or...? CR: Oh, yeah, I was going to tell you -- LB: Yeah. CR: Hold on one second. (pause) CR: Sorry about that. It was really scary in the beginning. Probably, oh, gosh, almost a month, going -- so it started in mid-March, it all got shut down. Maybe almost for a month, one person after another who I knew what was starting to get it, some really, really close friends. And I think it was just coupled with the breakup and trying to finish school online, everything was so chaotic. Now, of course, they're going to be totally ready and prepared all summer, but it was so sudden and everyone -- and they just had to adapt, we all had to adapt right away in such a short period of time. The professors were going nuts like, "How are we going to do this?" It was just all so new in the beginning, and just with everything else, the life stuff, it was crazy. I had a slight breakdown at first, like emotionally between that and friends getting sick and then I was getting worried about getting sick and my mom, so really buckling down, and we're not going anywhere. It was a really kind of a state of panic almost in the beginning. And I had some really close friends from other states getting it. My one friend, she's still recovering, she lives in -- originally from Alabama, one of my best friends, and she is in Kansas. She's a professor of biology there. I'm pretty sure she got it at her school. She got very sick from corona, and she was already immune compromised. Now, she's still dealing with the after effects, like the stuff that it dealt. She no longer has corona that I know of, but it did some damage with the other stuff that she has, so she's still dealing with that. Last time, she was at the Mayo Clinic. LB: Oh, my. CR: And my friend from Georgia that I mentioned before, my guitar buddy who I met in Barcelona, Spain, with -- we've kept in touch forever, like in touch since then with each other. She got it twice, and she's young, a young, heathy girl in her twenties. I feel like people are really... They have this illusion that, oh yeah, well, I'm not immune compromised, so I'm not... No, no, no, this is hitting and killing some healthy, young people out there. There's a sixteen-year-old I know from -- that my sister-in-law knows that -- a local person that died from it, a teenager. A friend of mine from church had several family members die from it. My brother had some friends in New York City that he grew up with and already knew for a long time that died from it. It just seemed like at least several times a week, we heard that somebody passed away. So when people got sick, we got really scared. I have one cousin -- and unfortunately, a lot of them are usually people that work a lot with the public. One cousin of mine, we were worried about her going back to work again. She works in a nursing home, and she got it pretty bad. And she had to stay home for a while. Luckily -- I don't know how she didn't get the rest of her family sick, but somehow, she didn't. She was isolated pretty well. So from all these people who are sick, their whole -- I would hear about their whole... It's not just when you're sick like at home with loved ones. You're not just under quarantine, but you're like under quarantine under quarantine because it's like you have to literally isolate yourself in your little bedroom with your cat or whatever, which now dogs and cats are getting it too apparently, you know? But -- LB: Yeah, but it doesn't make them sick, and they can't give it to anyone else, so it's kind of a weird thing. Like they're carriers -- CR: It is weird. LB: -- you know? I don't think -- CR: And like -- LB: -- not really a danger I think to humans -- CR: It's -- LB: -- or to the pets, kind of an odd -- CR: Hopefully not. I mean it's like you hear... I feel like we still don't even know enough about it -- LB: But that is better -- CR: -- to know everything and then I heard that there's more than one strain. I mean you never know like... And it hits everyone differently, different -- it's just so crazy. I feel like it's just too new for us to really nail anything down, to really know about it. So with all that, that's all I need. I just protect myself across the board. I don't care what's like -- unless they really learn about it, figure it out, get a vaccine, whatever, I feel we're going to take these precautions the rest of the year until next year. (sighs) Because I'm supposed to graduate in the spring ; I'm really hoping. I don't see that happening honestly, but I'm really hoping things go back to normal. I've waited so long, like over (laughs) 20 years to go back to school, to be able to walk that stage again with a four-year degree, and do the whole thing, cap and gown, etc., like the whole... I'm really, really, really excited about doing that like I did at LCCC. And I really want my mom to be able to be there, so... Like in my family, we're doing everything we can to keep her safe and healthy. LB: So that's your biggest concern is to keep your family healthy and safe? CR: Oh, yeah. That's been my number one priority. I feel like when a pandemic like this happens, which is like what, around your ears, it really makes you... I feel that the whole quarantine time -- at least for me and I hope a lot of people took this opportunity to do that. Maybe it's because -- (coughs) excuse me -- in recovery or I've always been really spiritual because of my church or whatever it maybe. I took a lot of time to reflect about things, about life, you know? LB: Mm-hmm. CR: That's when you really realize what's important. And I think not being able to go out and about and be so distracted as we usually are, and be stuck with family or whatever, like more time than you're usually used to, to get to know each other and to really just reflect on what's most important. This is a really big, rude awakening, kind of harsh reminder especially for those people that have lost people. There have been like entire families almost wiped out in this stuff, and it's really heartbreaking and sad. And I think with the time off from not being in school or at work or whatever it's been for people -- I feel like that definitely was an opportunity for people to change a lot of things. And speaking of that, the other thing that I got involved with unfortunately, not that I was trying to do that now during COVID, I've been part of the Black Lives Matter movement the whole time it's been around, for seven years now, I think, ish. And since like Trayvon Martin times, been involved with that, been using actually the same signs that I made a long time ago at my old studio, and I wasn't going to do that. I wasn't going to jump in to any rallies or anything any time soon. Under normal circumstances, I would have been to everything. I've been doing that for a long time, but it's -- but it was, of course, like a real concern and... But like my mask and I never take that off outside, and I really stayed. Like, I kept my distance from people. People got too close, I mean I got paranoid. I'm like, "Back up, like immunocompromised" you know like --? LB: Yeah. CR: So I've been really super careful about that. But I've been to a couple of rallies: one for George Floyd and the one from -- for Allentown that happened recently. So I've been involved -- pretty involved with that and a whole bunch of people in both rallies and just involved with a lot of the local organizations. I've been a member of Make the Road PA for some years now. LB: (inaudible) CR: I did some stuff for them. So still doing my activist thing with all that. Unfortunately, that was something that was completely for me -- this shouldn't be unexpected I guess, but that was an unexpected thing to deal with I felt like in the middle of all this going on, but I don't know. I guess everything happens for a reason, and there has been some change happening, which is good, more than I've seen the whole time I've been part of that movement. I think like any other -- like everything else, I feel like some things have gotten a little out of control. I feel like some real good, legitimate change whether it's doing any kind of reform [and things?], it's great. But when it goes to the -- starts going to the direction like, "We're going to take out the seventh episode of The Office" and stuff like that, it's like come on. That's not like -- you know that's not what it's about. Yeah. LB: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.. What do you think about...? And then one of the things we have here in the state of Pennsylvania is that we get to see Dr. Rachel Levine on the news, and she's the secretary of health. Have you had a chance to see her? She's transgender, and she is speaking about -- I mean, we really have pretty good leadership in the state of Pennsylvania. Has that affected you, or have you had a chance to see that? CR: Yeah, I've seen her. Yeah, she seems pretty cool I think. I think she's been harassed a little bit especially during -- with now... I think she's been doing a good job, and this is kind of dumb, like just focusing on the fact that she's a trans woman. Like big deal, you know what I mean? As long as she's doing her job, I don't care what she is, you know what I mean? It's like... That I don't get. I don't think it has anything to do with somebody's job performance -- LB: [Work?]. CR: I think a lot of people just use that as an excuse for their hate speech or whatever they need to do but -- yeah. So I don't have any problems with that. Honestly -- I'm going to plug in my laptop soon before it dies. Hold on. LB: Okay. CR: I'm in the living room trying to get (inaudible). All right. I know like our governor, Wolf, right? LB: Yes. CR: Yeah. He's been under some fire with the way he dealt -- honestly, I like him. I like the way he's dealt with it. I was all okay with the whole shut down and everything. Sure, and probably because it was easier for me ; I was already an essential worker and going to school or whatever. But to me lives come first. I'm sorry, but it's like we can deal with all that later. If we don't take care of this, it's not going to matter. Nobody is going to be around for it, then we won't have to worry about anything. But I totally agree with the way he did it. There's a reason why we're one of the states that had the lowest like the COVID, what, the report of how many cases we have and all that. They said we dealt with it pretty good. I know we're spiking a little bit now, but it's not like Florida or the way New York City was. It could have been way worse, and I think because he did what he did that it's not like Florida. I know it's inconvenient and this and that, but you do what you have to do. I mean this is... How often do we deal with this? I really wish we had done that longer honestly. I wish we'd have done... I'm just being honest about that. I feel like we opened too soon. I think we went the whole business as usual too soon, and now, we're seeing a spike. It's totally going to affect the -- all school for everybody across the board and for the whole country. I feel like this is dragging out probably way more than it should. And to tell you the truth, Liz, I knew it was going to be like this. I knew back in like March when everybody thought I was being paranoid, I knew that it was coming, it was going to be bad, and that it was going to drag on because that's how we are in this country. Like Americans, we are so stubborn and so just dumb when it comes to this kind of stuff and -- LB: You think that that's like your most frustrating thing? That it's really frustrating that you go out and people aren't wearing masks or like that and --? CR: Yeah. I knew they were going to turn it into some kind of rights thing. Like, these people had come out and -- oh, it's disgusting and comparing it to -- it's making it like a civil rights issue. It's like, "What are you doing?" and, "Oh, like we have a right," or like a sign that I saw, My Body, My Choice. Like, no, you don't get to steal like the prochoice movement's stuff for your stupid, like I don't want to wear a mask campaign. I feel like this has really brought out -- this pandemic, a lot of people's true colors, like a lot of people's true color. Like you can see. And I think it's really sad. I feel like... You can just see the people are just out there just for themselves. Like, they're just showing that they just have no concern or care about anybody else but themselves, you know? LB: Mm-hmm. CR: And it's just so selfish what's going on right now. Like when people get sick and they're like, "Oh, that's my problem," whatever. I'm like, "No, any time anybody's sick now anymore, it's everybody's problem. That's the whole point." I mean you have to be careful. You have to like think about other people. You just can't go out there hacking away or whatever and thinking that people aren't going to think you're sick with COVID. Everything has changed. I feel like a lot of people don't want to accept the new normal. Like it sucks, it's not ideal, nobody wants to live like this right now, but unfortunately, it's reality, and the more we realize that, I feel like the quicker we'll get this over with. But I feel like they're just unnecessarily prolonging it being stubborn and going out with signs like, "Let me play golf, let me go get my haircut." (laughs) It's just so ridiculous. LB: (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) really, really being cut back. (laughs) I mean just play golf if you wear a mask because now like I want to be able to play golf and not wear a mask, you know? We're like, "Just for [heaven sakes?]," you know? CR: Yeah, yeah. It's like, whoa, I'm so glad you have your priorities straight, you know? (laughter) LB: No kidding. CR: I mean it's just like it's not for themselves especially for other people you're going to be around. It's like, do you want to see your parents or grandparents again? The more you do that, the more you have to isolate from your loved ones because then you can't be around them. You're like literally putting people in danger unnecessarily, and that's terrible. And I've heard left and right, stories about, oh, like older people passing away because they were around people they probably shouldn't have been around, and a lot of them are their close relatives. I really feel that people don't realize they're like killing their own relatives by doing -- not following these precautions. We have a responsibility to take care of the most vulnerable people in our society. You've got to be a little considerate. That's a big concern for me for people when kids go back to school. I think that's my biggest concern is kids coming -- basically coming back home and bringing this stuff -- even if they're not sick, if they don't have symptoms coming home and infecting their parents, grandparents. That's a big concern of mine. I mean kids are great, but honestly, I'm staying away from them this entire time. (laughs) I've really avoided them at all costs. I know that sounds terrible, but -- LB: [Like with their family?] -- CR: -- that's how I feel. LB: I mean everybody knows that. You take your kid to day care, they're going to get a cold. CR: Oh, yeah. LB: This is far more contagious than a cold or the flu, the regular flu. I know a person who's a pediatrician who was asked by some of her parents of the patients she has, "Well, can I take my kid to daycare?" She said, "Well, if you don't mind them getting it." Here's the thing ; I mean you think that they don't get a cold, they don't get every single infection, everything from the head lice (laughs) to infections to poison ivy, to -- well you name it, your kids are infected if it's in day care of if it's in school. That's why -- you know? CR: Yeah, I'm so glad I don't have to deal with that. I mean, you've got to love them, but it's like they're literally, little germ buckets walking around right now, and I just can't -- I can't deal with it literally. (laughs) I avoid them like anything right now but... I really, really feel for the parents that have to navigate that whole thing, their life with parenthood and the pandemic. That must be awful, especially the parents that I know, especially the single mom parents that don't have that option. Oh, you can't take them to daycare, they don't have school, what do you do with them? They have to go to work especially the ones -- like my one ex that works at a -- what is it, like a nursing home environment, that whole thing. She's the caretaker forever, and these people are constantly worried about bringing stuff home to their kids, you know? LB: Right. CR: And very, very... The best people I know, I know a lot of caretakers, a lot of therapists and everything, and they're all struggling with that. Most of the closest people I know are in health care, so of course, that was a big concern. That was a big worry having so many loved ones in health care like the women's clinic. I used to work at Allentown Women's Center for six years, all my best friends work there. Oh, that's been like a nightmare just worrying about them, and every time I talk to them, not being able to be close to them any time soon, like, "You guys, really be careful," and it's -- LB: Are they open? CR: -- and praying for them every day. Hmm? LB: Are they open? CR: Yeah. They've been open since the beginning. They're considered essentials, women's health. They do abortions, but they do like GYN health care. They've been -- LB: A lot of trans health -- CR: -- about forty years. LB: Yeah. CR: Yeah, now the past... It's been a few years now. They have a whole trans health initiative. I'm proud to say that I got them into -- I put them on the gay map, so to speak, in Lehigh Valley a long time ago back in... I was working -- started in 2005 till 2011 when Jenn Boulanger was there, and I got them to PrideFest, and I was translating a bunch of things in Spanish. I was in charge of -- the bilingual counselor there, I was in charge of the Spanish-speaking patients since we got them -- we started this whole LGBT initiative thing, and so, yeah, they've grown a lot. They've grown a lot in their services, but yeah, being at a doctor's office, like that's been really scary. All my best friends are there, and it's already bad enough with that kind of business. It's already a risky field to begin with. Like prior to the pandemic, it was -- when I was there, it was hard because of protestors, and you get threats. You get bomb threats, you get that kind of stuff all the time really, so they were already in danger even before this but then the pandemic comes rolling around, and then you have to worry about your friends getting sick. That's been stressful. So I always check in with them all the time about that because, yeah, I'd be devastated if anything happened to any of my girls there. Yeah, because those are the best women I know ever, and we've been through a lot together, so... Like I said, this really makes you think what's important and you end up -- I don't know if you've done it, but I know especially in the beginning, you got used to quarantine and everything, I was reconnecting with people I hadn't talked to for a while -- LB: Yeah, absolutely. CR: -- you know? Yeah, and you wonder like, who's going to survive this, who's not going to survive this. In the long run when it's all over, like who's going to be left? I started thinking about stuff like that. LB: We're still in the beginning of it too. CR: Huh? LB: We're just at the beginning of it too. We don't even know what's going to happen. I mean if people are looking at this video of you talking thirty years from now, they know what happened. They may not know what the individual experiences for people would be, but they know what's going to happen with regard to this and how it's going to change the world, and we don't. And people who think that this is going to be back to normal, I mean we had employees at the center or other people that we're working with us would say, "Well, you know in September..." Actually, somebody just asked me to do a training in September, I said, "Well, I can't --" What I said was, "If I can absolutely guarantee that a person at risk won't be at -- there won't be any risk for someone who has high risk there, yes, I'll do it in person." Well, I know that's not going to happen, so there's no way that that's going to happen. Nobody can foresee that. Unless they came out with a vaccine tomorrow that eradicated the entire thing, well, that's going to happen, you know? CR: Right. LB: It's just not, so anyway. What's giving you hope? I mean, what's the best thing that's happened out of this, or what's really giving you hope, or generally, what gives you hope? CR: I think the biggest thing that's kept me together like mentally, emotionally, everything is probably I'm really grateful for my spirituality honestly. And I did this prior to all this happening. I pray and meditate every single day, so I'm very grateful for that. I've been attending church online, visiting several actually in the area, the Gregory Edwards Church and mine. My spirituality, I feel like, and the program recovery, it's given so much comfort so that that's helped a lot. I feel very blessed and lucky to have that and also my support system. I think is really important for people to have that support system and a Zoom account (laughs) to really connect with people because it is -- I feel bad for anyone that doesn't have that connection via... Like if they don't have good internet or a laptop or whatever, I really feel for them because that's like the lifeline for most people to the outside world. The support system I have that I've made for myself from people from school, from church, from other like mental health professionals. Honestly, I feel that we're all going to have -- I think we're feeling the effects of it already especially from quarantine, and I've talked about this with them. I think we're all going to have some form of PTSD from this thing, you know? And I feel like everyone can benefit from some kind of professional help when this is all over or even more like during because it's a lot. It's a lot especially for people like me that are... Well, I'm kind of an ambivert I guess. I can do both like still stay at home and be introvert and extro-- but I am mostly extroverted. The quarantine, that's probably the biggest thing like being out there and hanging out with people and being around people and hugging, and just the whole very people person and [there be?] -- LB: Are you using any dating apps or any queer dating apps or anything? CR: (laughs) Yeah, Tinder is probably not the best -- LB: (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) CR: (laughs) Yeah. Yeah, I feel like you have to be really, really careful. Shoot, I haven't done like online dating app or anything for years. Fortunately being involved, I think being involved in so many circles really improves your chances of dating. But luckily, even after the break, I'm thinking, oh, cool, so dating is not going to happen any time soon. But fortunately, somebody from my recovery group -- we were friends before, we're kind of seeing each other now. So I guess I'm like in a rebound relationship now you can say, so I got lucky with that. And we've kind of screened each other like physically and everything. She works by herself, a caseworker, so it's worked out. It's really worked out that we were able to like get together and know that we're safe because we're -- we've been isolating. (laughs) So I got lucky with that. But, yeah, I know that's not usually the case with most people, and I really hope that people aren't doing that too much. And if they are, I don't really know how you could do that safely at this point and not consider like -- LB: That's why they say -- CR: -- the people (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) -- huh? LB: -- right now, you're your own best friend. CR: Yeah, yeah. (laughs) Absolutely. Yeah, you have to be safe like that especially these days. LB: Sex during corona, you're your own best friend is the -- CR: Seriously, yeah, because it's like -- because in the end -- that's all the things I considered. Like in the end, I'm thinking, is it really worth hooking up with someone right now and then taking that home to your relatives? LB: Yeah, (inaudible). CR: Is it really worth it in the long run? I'm like, nope. So, yeah, it's tough. If somebody wasn't partnered before this went down, this is like -- then it's been -- I know it's been tough for people. I got lucky, but I know like that's -- it is what it is though. Huh? LB: I think people who are living alone, completely alone, it's very, very hard for them. CR: Sure. LB: It's an off thing. I say that to Trish every day. I say, "We're so lucky that we get to be here. We're also so lucky that we have a big enough house that we don't have to be in the same room every day," you know? CR: Right, right, right. (laughs) Definitely, oh, my gosh, and I think that was a big thing too I heard was -- I forgot what country it was. That definitely the corona has gone down and it's going back to normal, and divorce rates are up because people just got so sick of each other, you know? LB: Well -- CR: I could see that. LB: -- a lot of people are looking at their smaller apartments, like people who lived in New York City that were very in small -- like the lodge that I just sleep there, are really looking at different kinds of living arrangements. I don't know if I can ever -- maybe I can never imagine. What if I get stuck doing this again? I have to move to the suburbs, or I have to have more of a communal living situation where a group of people are living together so that they don't have to be alone. They said that like every pet in the -- all the dogs and cats that were in, the strays, everybody adopted them because -- in all the places because people didn't want to not have anything to hug. And I think it was a big deal. I think a big deal. So we're pretty much at the end of this. I wanted to just ask you in the future, we hope that somebody -- well, I think people will look at these. These are very interesting artifacts because comparing this to the flu that happened a hundred years ago, a hundred and two years ago, the flu epidemic of 1918, they didn't have social media then. On the other hand, they didn't really know how dangerous it was, and that's why so many more people died. I mean fifty million people died in that flu epidemic and for a lot of -- one of the reasons is that people weren't sharing information. They weren't telling each other really how they were communicating and how they had to do distance and stuff. You weren't allowed to talk about that really. I think for a lot of us who are concerned about other people, the biggest frustration is elected officials who are leaders who were saying to people, "Well, so what if people die? Go ahead and open. It's only fourteen thousand children that are going to die," that kind of stuff. So that makes us all nuts but.. And it's ridiculous because there's no finite number. We have no idea what this is going to do, and we also know that there has been indication that people -- scientists have said if every single person in the United States wore a mask for three months, this would be over. CR: Mm-hmm, yeah. LB: Right? CR: Yeah. LB: Literally, it would end it. It would end the thing. But people won't wear their masks ; it's crazy. But anyway, what I wanted to ask you is people would be looking at this, so now you're talking to the future and you're going to tell them. Tell them one -- a couple of phrases about sort of what's happening and what you hope is going to happen and to just communicate the feeling of -- like your feelings about how things are now and maybe some hope and what you'll hope it's going to turn out to be and that kind of stuff. What would you say to them? CR: Well, to kind of piggyback on what you just said, I realized that when it first started, like everything shutting down in mid-March or whatever, in some countries, this was already winding down in some places. I think already in China, like it was already winding down, and it wasn't really a long time overall when you look at it because they were really strict with themselves about that. Unfortunately, I don't think that's going to happen here any time soon. I wouldn't be surprised at all if it's not already the country where it lasts the longest because of so many people fighting it. They wouldn't even put up with that in other countries. They haven't as far as I know like the protesting about wearing masks and all that. Yeah, I feel that this has really, like I said, been an opportunity to really -- to unite and just fight this together and just follow what we're supposed to do. But honestly, I feel that it has divided us as well unfortunately, and I can't say that I'm surprised by that. It's really disappointing. That combined with other things that we already had here that we're dealing with. Don't even get me started on our so-called leadership of the country. I think that's a huge, huge part. They have not set a good example in how to deal with this crisis, and I feel that it says a lot. Like whatever the leaders are doing, they're leading by example or they're supposed to be, people are going to follow that. And I've literally heard, I'm sure you did too, on the news, I literally heard people saying like on the beach, "Well, the president doesn't wear a mask, why should I?" That says a lot, and I feel like things would have been one hundred percent completely different if we had somebody else there who would have spotted this a long time ago. It should have been taken care of like the end of last year honestly. If that would have happened, things would have been totally different. So I feel like we were not prepared for this at all, but we should have seen this coming a mile away. Unfortunately, we haven't, we didn't, and this is the result of that but I'm hoping that... And I think sadly, it's going to take another serious wave for it to really kick in, for a lot of people to really realize it especially the people that are still saying, I don't know why, that it's -- I don't know where they're getting this information from, that it's a hoax. People have been dying and getting sick. I feel like they're the ones that need to get sick or have someone around them to really understand. I don't wish this on anybody, but it's like, what is it going to take, you know? LB: Right. CR: So it's been really scary. And it's almost like you have to walk on eggshells and have this constant stress over you all the time. Like, am I going to get it? Am I going to bring this home today? It's like we shouldn't have to live like that, and it doesn't have to be like that. But hopefully, we'll get through it, and a lot of lessons I'm hoping we'll learn to be better prepared, hopefully to have better leadership in the figure. We do have an election -- a big election coming up, so I hope that's reflected in the upcoming elections. If it's not, then it's like, have we really learned anything? So I think there are so many lessons to be learned with the pandemic on a very, very personal level, on a level like your community. It takes a village, you know?LB: Yeah. CR: National level, international level. I mean so many lessons. You need to take this opportunity to really reflect on so many things and not act like it's business as usual because it's not, and it's not going to be for a long time. LB: Yeah. You spent a lot of time in Europe or you were in Europe last year for three and a half months, and I'm sure you have friends in other countries too that -- have you been communicating with those people in other countries about what that -- their experiences were, or was it mostly students that were from here that you were around? CR: Mostly students, but that's a good question. I did make some friends over there mostly from the university. I was -- actually became good friends with my professors that I ended up hanging out with early -- like we hang out with them and fellow artists over there that I worked with. It's a shame ; I haven't gotten in touch with them. I should even if it's just via WhatsApp or whatever. That's been a great source of -- for communication. Yeah, I'm going to check up on them with that because I know Spain was in a major lockdown, major lockdown, but they seem to have done pretty well with it as well. That's what I noticed. The ones that had that most strict lockdown, quarantine procedures are the ones that came out better off in the long run, you know? I really wish we could have done that here. I knew we wouldn't be able to, I just -- I knew. There would just be too much of a hassle, too much ruckus with all these crazy groups going out there on the steps of city hall with -- or wherever it was with their guns and what -- it's so ridiculous. I'm just -- I can't -- you know like -- yeah. I think that's just really dragging it out, and we'll eventually learn the hard way, so... LB: Yeah. Well, this has been a great interview. I really, really appreciate you taking your time to do this with me today, and -- CR: Thank you. LB: -- I appreciate it very much. You do get that thirty day -- we'll try to get the transcript. This goes to a college, a transcripts groups that they transcribe this into writing so that you can look at it then you have some time to look at it and stuff. I can't imagine that you would want to take anything out. Everything you said was brilliant -- CR: Thank you. LB: -- needless to say. And let me give my best wishes to your mom and take care of yourself, and I really appreciate all of that. and I appreciate all the stuff you've done over the many, many years that you've done. I think we've known each other for at least twenty-five years. CR: Oh gosh, yeah, yeah. LB: So yeah, and you've always been there working on this stuff and always very, very vocal and very... And one of the things I was thinking about because I have the same quality as you, is artists are never bored. You always have something. CR: (laughs) Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. LB: Especially since we have the internet where we can show our art on the internet. So it's like, -- CR: Oh yeah. LB: -- well, nobody can see the work I'm doing. You can -- CR: Yeah. LB: You work all the time, and maybe in some way, kind of cool that you get the time to just work and work. I've made two paintings yesterday, so I really do understand it. CR: Excellent, yeah. LB: Thank you very much. I'm going to stop the recording here. CR: Sure. LB: Thanks -- CR: Okay, yeah, no -- END OF VIDEO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
Duration
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01:12:30
Dublin Core
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Cynthia Rodriguez, July 20, 2020 (Part 1)
Description
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Cynthia Rodriguez talks about how the current COVID-19 pandemic is affecting her, her friends and family, her experience as a full time student and her work as an artist and musician. She also talks about prayer and meditation and civil rights activism including Black Lives Matter.
Identifier
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PH40_31a
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
Date
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2020-07-20
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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-
https://lgbt.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/b83ed7b2ae3c028fdb360599268d8839.png
262d749c57495783af37b5965947bb43
Dublin Core
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
An account of the resource
In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Liz Bradbury
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Cynthia Rodriguez
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_31b.xml
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5.4 July 20, 2020 Cynthia Rodriguez, July 20, 2020 (Part 2) PH40_31b 00:02:04 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Cynthia Rodriguez Liz Bradbury video/mpeg RodriguezCynthia_2020072020_video.mp4 1:|23(5)|48(16) 0 https://youtu.be/sZiVWpfGEt0 YouTube video 5 Using Zoom for creative and business ventures CR: Okay. So I’ve learned to get really creative on Zoom from the beginning of the pandemic. Actually also, I wrote a few song parodies regarding the pandemic that I would perform on Facebook Live. 0 MovingImage Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
00:02:04
Dublin Core
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Title
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Cynthia Rodriguez, July 20, 2020 (Part 2)
Identifier
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PH40_31b
Subject
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
Date
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2020-07-20
Format
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video
Creator
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
Publisher
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
Rights
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Copyright remains with the interview subject and their heirs.
-
https://lgbt.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/ac119b5677e6eefd21937be4a4366c07.png
36edd9d5708951cf034dac90258eca60
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Stories from LGBT Older Adults in the Lehigh Valley
Description
An account of the resource
This collection began in 2019 with the initial goal of collecting ten oral histories from older adult LGBT people in the Lehigh Valley. Topics explored include the childhood experiences of LGBT people, experiences within educational and religious institutions, coming out stories, understanding of the gay liberation movement (1960-1980s), experience of the early years of the AIDS epidemic and AIDS activism (1980s-present), and experience with the fight for marriage equality. The project has been a collaborative effort among faculty and librarians from Cedar Crest College, Lehigh University, Moravian College, Muhlenberg College, and members of the local community, under the direction of Dr. Mary Foltz, Associate Professor of English at Lehigh University and Co-Director of the South Side Initiative. <br /><br /><em> The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.</em>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
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Mary Foltz
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
D.J. Landis
OHMS Object
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Viewer)
https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LGBT-05.xml
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5.4 June 12, 2020 D.J. Landis, June 12, 2020 LGBT-05 01:39:12 LVLGBT Stories from LGBT Older Adults in the Lehigh Valley Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg D.J. Landis Mary Foltz video/mp4 LandisDJ_20200612_video.mp4 1.0:|29(4)|64(8)|83(14)|102(8)|115(12)|132(14)|151(7)|168(8)|185(9)|204(8)|223(14)|240(10)|259(2)|274(12)|291(14)|312(2)|335(4)|350(5)|371(5)|390(11)|409(5)|428(4)|443(8)|460(16)|477(12)|492(17)|505(19)|524(2)|541(11)|558(5)|577(5)|596(2)|613(6)|628(17)|643(13)|660(7)|677(6)|694(7)|719(12)|736(11)|753(14)|772(4)|789(2)|804(9)|819(16)|836(13)|857(7)|876(8)|893(19)|910(4)|929(8)|946(5)|961(7)|978(16)|1001(10)|1024(12)|1045(6)|1064(6)|1079(9)|1100(4)|1117(3)|1134(5)|1155(12)|1170(15)|1191(6)|1212(16)|1235(9)|1248(9)|1263(9)|1282(6)|1301(5)|1318(6)|1329(14)|1344(7)|1359(15)|1374(12)|1401(5)|1420(7)|1435(9)|1448(5)|1461(4)|1478(7)|1497(4)|1514(14)|1535(4)|1554(17)|1569(7)|1586(9)|1601(12)|1618(10)|1635(6)|1654(6)|1671(12)|1688(5)|1707(3)|1722(14)|1731(5) 0 https://youtu.be/CNefhC2A5-g YouTube video 1 Interview Introductions MARY FOLTZ: Well, good morning. My name is Mary Foltz, and I’m here with DJ to talk about her life and experiences in LGBT organizations in the Lehigh Valley. And this is a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. Our project has funding from the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, and we are meeting on Zoom because we’re in the middle of a pandemic. And today’s date is June 12, 2020. So first I just, DJ, I want to say thank you so much for doing this interview with me today.
 ; DONNA J LANDIS: You’re welcome. 
 ; MF: And to start, could you please state your full name and spell it for me? 0 117 Early Life in Shamokin MF: Great. All right, well, let’s go ahead and get started. And I’m going to start the interview by just asking you, could you tell me a little bit about your childhood? 
 ; DL: Well, I grew up in the coal regions, Shamokin, Pennsylvania, and I’ll be seventy-five years old on Sunday. And I was always a tom boy. My mother bought me dolls, but they stayed in the box. I didn’t play with dolls. I wanted guns and all the boy’s stuff, all the boy’s toys. And I was just playing football, baseball, I did all that stuff, and I had a lot of friends, and we just rode around. It was all the good stuff. I was never a little girl playing girl stuff. 0 304 Growing Up / Familial Relationships MF: Tell me a little bit about sort of that extended family and your relationships with either your biological parents or your parents, parents who adopted you.
 ; DL: We were friendly at first, and then my biological mother and my adopted mother, like I said, they were good friends, and they thought my adopted mother couldn’t have children. So what happened is when my biological mother gave birth to me they adopted me, and then when my adopted mother ended up getting pregnant there was a little bit of a rift there. So then I didn’t have contact for many, many years. And then with my biological father, I did have contact with him. [00:06:00] But you know, back then when you were adopted it was always hush-hush, nobody talked about it. 0 624 Being a Tomboy in Shamokin MF: I’m curious about, you know, you describe yourself as being a tom boy. So you’re kind of hurting in your family life, but it sounds like you had relationships in the community with neighbors. What was it like to be a tom boy in Shamokin when you were a young person?
 ; DL: It was good. I started doing odd jobs at nine years old. We lived -- are you there? We lived across from a grocery store. I would come home from lunch break and deliver groceries for nickels and dimes, and I would save that because I figured my own money, nobody could tell me how to spend it. And if I wanted something I would just ask my mom because, like I said, I was spoiled. But it was great. I had a lot of friends, and I was sort of like -- my girlfriends that couldn’t protect herself, I was their protector. If they couldn’t fight I would fight for them. And I wasn’t the type that would sit and play with dolls or play girly girls. That wasn’t me. 0 772 Youthful Experiences MF: So I’m curious about your rebellious spirit. When you bagged school you said we did typical things. What were the typical things you do when you snuck off from school?
 ; DL: Oh, we would go down to different places and go get hoagies and ride around and go different towns and just do all that stuff. Of course you couldn’t stay around where you was at school so you wouldn’t get caught. Or because you would get detention. I had so much detention just from rebelling at home ec because I wouldn’t do the home ec stuff. I wanted shop because I couldn’t understand. The boys could take home ec. Why couldn’t the girls take shop? And we had to wear dresses to school even in the winter time. No long pants, dresses. 0 1047 Steps After Graduation MF: So describe what happens for you after you leave school. What is sort of the next step of your life after your adolescence?
 ; 
 ; DL: Okay, so after that, after I left school, I would hang out in the little town called Kulpmont, which was like, six or eight miles -- four miles from Shamokin and in Mount Carmel and party, drink, like teenager stuff. But our parties were different. We used to go up into the mountain, (inaudible) up in the coal mountains, and we would stay up there and have our weekend parties and not come down and cause trouble. And the cops knew we were up there, and they were okay with it, long as we stayed up there and we didn’t come down and cause any trouble or anything else. We would have a party, and it would last the weekend, and open the trunks of my car, and everybody had to put their keys in my car, my trunk. So you couldn’t get down. You had to stay up there, not cause any trouble. And we built a pavilion that you would have, you know, you pay $10, you drink all the weekend, you have food and everything else. And we would drive to -- a bunch of us sometimes would go to Philadelphia because we had friends then that graduated and worked in Philly. At the time they worked at, used to be Bell Tel. I don’t know what it was called, but and then from there we would meet there, go down there and spend a weekend and drive up to New York. There was plenty of parties. You know, you had to in-know to where the parties were. But that’s how I got in to go the Village and The Stonewall. 0 1169 Interactions/Associations within the LGBT Community MF: Tell me more about that. Were these parties -- were they coed parties? I mean, going to Stonewall, of course, you’re with LGBT people when you go into New York to Stonewall. Tell me a little bit about the kind of makeup of your friends and were you associating with LGBT people in Shamokin, or was that primarily in Philly and New York?
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 ; DL: No, that was in Shamokin. In Shamokin, in the town of Shamokin the gay bars would be after 2:00. And you couldn’t go earlier until after 2:00 in the morning. And of course we were underage, but that was okay. They let you in. And there was other clubs that you could go, like it was up in Berwick. It was Berwick Hotel, when you were of age, but it was down in the basement. And the first gay bar I went to was called the Lark. And it was -- the dance floor was only about 12 by 12. That’s how big it was. It was small. It was in the back room of a bar. And there was another bar that we went outside of Sunbury, and you’re dancing all, and I would say no clenching, no clenching. And then the other bar, it was you would go Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday it was straight. Thursday, Friday, and Saturday it was gay. So everybody knew that the town knew which was which. So if you didn’t want to be with the gays you didn’t go. And there was a lot of the women that would come that they were straight, but they loved being around the gay people. 0 1305 Coming Out MF: When did you know you were gay, or when did you encounter gay community? You talked about the first gay bar that you went to, but when did you know you were a part of the gay community?
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 ; DL: I guess I always -- I just was different. There was only one guy I truly, truly loved, but we couldn’t be together because he was an Italian. And back then you had to be Italian to be with Italian. His wife was already picked out. But we remained friends. And I was married to a man. I got married at 19. I got divorced at 19. And I came out at 19. And him and I are friends now. We’re better friends than we were married. 0 1452 Experience in Gay Bars / LGBTQ Community in Shamokin MF: So I’m curious about some of the bars that you describe, like the Lark and other places. Could you describe what was a night out -- what did that look like? What kind of music did they play? What were those bars like? 
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 ; DL: Back then when you went to the gay bars the butch type girls would be dressed more boyish, and their girlfriends would be -- you could tell the difference. They would be dressed up nicely and, you know, like if they were going on a date with a boy. But that’s how they would be dressed, not like they’re dressed today. You would know a butch from a fem. And that’s how you did it. And you went to the bars. You danced. You socialized and just like a couple. 
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 ; MF: Was the gay community in Shamokin and those coal towns -- what was the size of that community? Was it a small, insular community, or what was the size of it?
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 ; DL: Very small, people knew but they didn’t say nothing, to your face anyway. They might have said something behind your back. But when I came out at 19 I never changed. It was like you accept me for who I am or you don’t. It’s your loss. That was my attitude. 0 1627 Travels to Bigger Cities MF: So I have one more question about the bars. So I’m curious, you went into Stonewall in the late ’60s. What was that like, to go into New York City with friends from Shamokin? 
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 ; DL: We enjoyed it. It was wonderful. I mean, it was like wow, the Village, we loved the Village. You can go on up there. We would go every time we could come we would go up. It was just unbelievable the difference between little towns where you had to wait to go to the bars and then go to New York where it was all open. But it was bad. The night the Stonewall was raided I was supposed to be there. But my gay friends, the males, they couldn’t change their own tires or nothing, so I had to do that. And that’s why we didn’t go. And I’m glad we didn’t go. 
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 ; MF: So I’m curious about that, like the openness that you see in New York City versus living in a small town, did you want to continue to live in that kind of small region, that Shamokin region? Did you ever considering going to New York City, or did you really prefer the kind of small town atmosphere? 0 1845 Working in the 1970s/Taking Care of Mother MF: So you’re working up in the kind of Shamokin region. Can you tell me a little bit about the jobs that you held during this time period? Is this the early ’70s that we’re talking about?
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 ; DL: Yeah. I tried sewing. Like I said, I hated home ec. I tried that. I quit the job. I worked one day, and I didn’t know. I sewed everything together. I didn’t know that. I flunked that. But I worked building RVs. Pace Arrow I was called. You get a chassis and then you built the camper on the chassis. All you got was a chassis and you had to build everything on the chassis. And it was a joke at first when they first came out because if you were in an accident you didn’t call [the body a fender?] you called a carpenter because they were made out of wood. They were top heavy. You couldn’t drive if it was real windy on an interstate. You better be afraid, topped over. 0 2096 Meeting Sandy/Connecting with Other Women MF: Well, I know Sandy is an important person in your life, so could you tell me how you met her at state hospital? How did you two meet?
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 ; DL: She was my boss. I went to work on WD, which was a unit down there, and she was my boss. And when I told her stories she’ll say what the hell are you talking about? I’m still your boss. So but we split for almost 30 years, and we’re back together now. In February we were together 26 years. Like I said, when Sandy and I split I met this woman, and I just believed everything she told me because at that time I was still not trusting people. And I still had the chip on my shoulder and everything. And in between time I ran in -- Sandy and I met in between. And I asked Sandy to take me back, and she laughed. When Sandy’s nervous she laughs. So I thought oh well. 0 2327 Living as a Same-Sex Couple in Shamokin MF: Did the two of you live together with her children in Shamokin?
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 ; DL: Yes. 
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 ; MF: And so can you describe a little bit what that was like, to be a same-sex couple living together in Shamokin?
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 ; DL: It wasn’t too bad. I guess it was harder on the oldest child because his friends used to make fun of him. And I was friends with her husband too. So it was like, you know, we were all friends. When he got sick I helped take care of him. I would go up and make sure he got all his medicines and everything, and it was, you know, we all got along. Like I said, it’s like I’m who I am, you accept me, and that’s how it is. She didn’t bash the husband, and he didn’t bash the wife. You know, it was like, we just talked, you know. If he needed something to drive, I would drive him and his girlfriend places, and, you know, he had a girlfriend, and he just drank a lot. 0 2569 Favorite Memories of 20 Year Relationship MF: [inaudible] some of your favorite memories from that partnership, that 20 years together? 
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 ; DL: I would say the birth of the first grandchild. I love him dearly. He was my favorite. I have to say he was my favorite. But there was, you know, the proms, the weddings, the graduations, typical all, like, if you were a married couple, the typical thing of what goes on with their kids, their dates, their broken hearts and just the typical things of what a married couple would do if they had children, the ups and downs, the fighting. But it was -- I can’t say it was bad. It was good times, a lot of good times. 0 2852 Butch-Femme Culture MF: You early talked about the kind of butch-fem emphasis in the bar culture, and I’m wondering, how did you feel about kind of butch-fem in the bar culture or in the larger sort of gay community?
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 ; DL: How do I feel about it?
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 ; MF: Yeah, were you a part of butch-fem culture, or were you sort of outside of that?
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 ; DL: I guess I was part of it. I always dressed that way, so it was nothing new to me. My hair’s longer now than it has been in years because I can’t get a haircut, but it was -- I didn’t wear fem clothes. In fact, when I worked -- and this is funny, but it’s a true story. When I was building RVs my niece was getting -- she always says she was my niece, was getting married, and I said I had to go get a dress for the wedding. And my boss said to me if you’re going to get a dress I want a picture of it, and I’ll pay you for working. So I went. I didn’t get the dress, but I put my partner’s dress on, made her take the picture, and I showed it to my boss, and I got paid for the day. I didn’t own dresses. I still don’t own dresses. The last dress I wore was I think in ’63 or ’62 when my cousin got married. 0 2983 Loss of Partner MF: They look beautiful. The one on your shoulder looks amazing, but I could see that one a little bit more. Oh, that’s so cool. So you describe -- this partner had an untimely death from the 20-year relationship. What happened at that period? You know, tell me a little bit about what happened around that time?
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 ; DL: Well, she had breathing problems. You know, we all smoked back then. Everybody smoked. And she had asthma. And she had it for many, many, many years. And like I said, we grew up on that street, so I know her for, you know, from when her firstborn -- and it just was getting worse and worse and worse. And her oldest son and I took her to Hershey Medical. And he gave her only six months to live because her lungs -- her one lung collapsed. But she didn’t know it. She didn’t want to know. So, you know, we didn’t tell her. And a few months later she was rushed to the hospital, and this doctor came in and told her -- she asked did she have cancer? He said no, but you’re dying anyway. So she just gave up. So she died November 11, I think it was, in ’93. And she made me promise to call Sandy and tell Sandy because she said you always loved Sandy. You never gave up. You never stopped loving Sandy. You would never let anybody say anything bad about Sandy. 0 3013 Tattoos MF: So I’m curious about [break in audio]. I’m curious about your tattoos because you brought them up. You said you have a woman’s name tattooed on your arm. You’ve got 10 tattoos. 
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 ; DL: Yeah.
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 ; MF: Tell me a little bit about your tattoos.
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 ; DL: Well, our neighbor’s son was doing tattoos. And he needed people to practice on. So I said sure. My mom said don’t you dare. Wrong thing to say to me, don’t. And I got it. It’s a big thing with flowers and double hearts and a blue bird and all that. I have a black rose. I have an eagle tattoo. I have a dream catcher tattoo on my other shoulder. On my back I have a yin-yang. On the other side I have a Pegasus on the other with the rainbow. On my leg Sandy’s songives tattoos out in Minnesota, but this was in California. When Sandy and I had our holy union, Mark and Michelle came, that’s his wife, but he’s remarried now. I have a cherub on my leg with double hearts. The cherub represents the grandchildren, and the double hearts is Sandy and I. I’ve got hot stuff devil, so. And then I’ve just got the last tattoo I got from Mark was a ribbon because Sandy had lung cancer. And I have it white with her name on it and my color as a care taker and the date when she had her lung cancer. So that’s my tattoos. 0 3315 Rekindling Relationship w/ Sandy MF: So when you came down from Shamokin to Allentown to visit Sandy, tell me a little bit about, like, how you got back together. How did you make that transition from friends or potential friendship back to partners?
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 ; DL: Well, we always stayed in contact, but my former partner used to talk more to Sandy than I did. Sandy and I would say hi, how are you? Okay, yeah, me too, blah, blah, blah. But her, my former partner and Sandy would talk more than I. And we would even come down and visit. Because see, I had people from Shamokin moved down here, and that’s when I moved to Allentown. I stayed with people from Shamokin that was family friend from family like grandfather lived with them, you know. And so I lived with them when I came down here until I got my apartment across the street from them. And then when Meg passed I come down. I called Sandy, and she invited me down. And it was a little strange at first, but then I kept coming down. She invited me down, and we got back together. 0 3627 Life in Allentown in the '90s MF: So you moved to Allentown in March of, I think you said 1994. Tell me a little bit about the neighborhood that you lived in Allentown. Like, what was it like to move to Allentown in the 1990s?
 ; DL: Where we’re at now, we’re in the same house. We’re in the same house, Sandy’s house, and neighborhood’s fine. They all know, and we get along. Actually, Sandy works at the state hospital forty-one and a half years. And her parents love me. And actually in 2001 I changed my name to Landis. That’s Sandy’s name. My name was Golda. When I met Liz and Trish I was Golda, my married name. And in 2001 when I changed my name Sandy’s parents, her mom especially really loved it, that I became a Landis. And we’re still in the same house, twenty-sixyears still in the same house. And the neighbors, I have no problem with them. I watch every -- I know everything that’s going on in the neighborhood. I watch. I know new cars and old cars and what belongs here and doesn’t belong here. 0 3868 Connecting w/ Pride Festivals DL: Well, I was trying to sell my property up there. I mean, what I did, I rented it to sell for a year. I went to my very first pride fest. The year before I heard about it. I read about it on TV. But I went to my first pride fest. I called Liz and Trish. And I called Mickey Katz. I don’t know if you know Mickey Katz. And I talked to them. And I started volunteering. I went over, and I met Liz and Trish. And I start volunteering. I just thought it was wonderful that they had something like that for gay people. And I volunteered for our pride fest. I went to Harrisburg’s for their pride fest. And I went to Philly for their pride fest and worked them. 
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 ; MF: What did it feel like for you to be at that first pride festival in Allentown?
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 ; DL: It was wonderful. And it, you know, all this and, you know, no problems. It was different back, you know. This was wonderful. They had something for gay people that I never knew they had. Well, the very first gay pride down here was in ’93, I think they started it. And then I ended up going being on the pride board for a couple years. But it was wonderful. I just totally enjoyed it. 0 4378 Involvement w/ other LGBT Organizations in Allentown MF: So you’re working on the Pride board in Allentown. What other LGBT organizations were you involved with in Allentown during this period of the ’90s?
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 ; DL: There was one called Kindred Spirits, [GLOR?], and with Liz and Trish it was a different name back then. It was PA- Gala. And I can’t think of the other ones, but it was different, quite a few. I tried to help with every one I could. 
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 ; MF: Yeah, Liz and Trish describe you as, like, a volunteer all over the valley, that you were just sort of like, just helping in any way you can. I’m not familiar with Kindred Spirit. Could you talk a little bit about what that was and how you worked with that organization? 0 4613 Involvement w/ Religious Organizations in Allentown MF: Were you involved with any religious organizations during this time period like MCCLV?
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 ; DL: Yes.
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 ; MF: Tell me about -- 
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 ; DL: I belonged to [inaudible].
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 ; MF: Tell me about your involvement with MCCLV.
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 ; DL: I went there. I was at a birthday party, and this friend of mine was there, and she was leaving to go to church. It was at Sunday night at 6:00 or for first six. And I said can I come with you? She said sure. And I went. They were in -- sharing a church, Unitarian church in Bethlehem. And I enjoyed it. And that’s the first I went to church down here with MCC. I was a member. I belonged there 17 years. I was on the board. I was on the property board for six years. And I helped move with the church and all of that. There’s where I fell. We moved from Ford Street. Was it Ford Street? From Merchant Square. We were at Merchant Square on Vultee Street. We moved from there to Ford Street in Allentown. And I was working at the church, and I fell 15 feet and broke my leg. But yeah, I belonged to MCC for 17 years. And now I belong to St. Mark’s, Lutheran church. 0 5101 Importance of Volunteering and Leadership MF: You really have so many stories about volunteering or being on leadership, both in LGBT organizations but in your church organizations both at MCCLV and now with your Lutheran congregation. Could you tell me a little bit about why volunteering and taking on leadership roles in community organizations has been important in your life?
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 ; DL: Well actually, they asked me to become one of the leaders. They asked me. I was just a member over a year, and they called and asked me to be on their board. And I was honored. I said I’m not even a member only a little over a year and you’re asking me to be on your board. I was honored that they asked, you know. So that’s how it is. They asked me. And I’m honored. And I told them right from the beginning my mouth sometimes got me in trouble. And they were happy. Because I speak my mind, and that’s where it got me in trouble at MCC. You ask me a question and I’m going to answer it, and if I feel something’s wrong I’m going to speak my mind, and that’s what happened. 0 5206 Legitimizing Her Relationship w/Sandy MF: I’m wondering if we could talk a little bit about just kind of to turn back to you and Sandy, did you have a commitment ceremony or, you know, something prior to the passage of marriage equality? 
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 ; DL: Yes, we had a holy union back in 1998 at the Unitarian church where we had that. My family from Delaware all came. They all love Sandy. And it’s like you can’t accept Sandy. And before my biological mother died we mend the fences, and, you know, I said this is my partner, and if you can’t accept her you’re history. You’re not as important to me as she is. And that’s how it is. They can’t accept Sandy then we’re history. And in 2001 we had, in Connecticut, we had a civil union. We can’t get legally married in Pennsylvania because I would lose my benefits. That’s why we -- not legally married in Pennsylvania or we would be because I’m a fixed, very low. Like, I only get $1,000 to live on. And my medicine, because I have COPD, two of my inhalers are over $1,000. 0 5378 Current Relationship with Sandy MF: So now in your seventies, how would you describe your relationship with Sandy now that you’ve been together for so many years and you’re in your seventies, you’re kind of in this, like, really beautiful part of your relationship because you’ve been together so long. Describe that for me. 
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 ; DL: I still love her with all my heart. And we talk, which we never did in the beginning back in the ’60s. We didn’t talk. We talk. We’re honest with one another. And like, she’ll say how are -- like if I’m not feeling good I’ll say I’m good. She’ll say honest? And if I’m not feeling -- I won’t say honest unless I mean it. But we talk. We don’t just do something. No matter what it is we talk about, give each other’s opinion on everything. We trust one another. 0 5544 Current Status of LGBTQ Community
 ; MF: Well, we’re getting close to the end of the interview. So I want to ask just maybe one or two more questions. In your seventies, as you look back on your experiences and really the kind of LGBT movements from the ’69 and Stonewall, you know, through the present, how do you think things have changed for LGBT people? What have you sort of witnessed across your life? 
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 ; DL: Well, I don’t remember the movie, but they showed a movie at NCCC one time. And I was there helping one of the groups out. And the younger people that was younger than me were in there that didn’t come out as early as I came out. And when they came out, and they kept thanking me. And it’s like, for what, you know? I don’t consider myself a hero or warrior or nothing else. I’m just me, plain old me. And it’s a lot different. Now I see people walking hand in hand, you know, couples, and I think wow, what a difference, what a difference. They didn’t realize what it was like to go to a bar after 2:00 in the morning to be with yourself and friends. And I got a nickname called Bobbie because I was, like I said, I was butchy, and this drag queen thought I was a guy. And I told him no. He said from now on you’re Bobbie to me. And so I did a couple drag shows at the church, and I went by Bobbie. But it’s so different. And they don’t realize how lucky they are that they can walk down the street hand in hand and not get bashed or beat up or anything because a lot of that was going on. We fought for a lot of this. I remember so many years standing on Hamilton Street fighting for gay marriage in the freezing cold. 0 5770 Final Message DL: I would just say not to be ashamed of who you are or who you love. Love is love, no matter what color, what race, or who it is. Love is love. And don’t be ashamed of who you love. And don’t hide who you love. 
 ; 
 ; MF: Thank you so much, DJ. It’s just been such a pleasure talking with you today. 0 MovingImage DJ Landis discusses early childhood and young adulthood in Shamokin, PA, her thoughts about being adopted, and her family life. DJ addresses a number of gay bars in small towns and cities as well as LGBT social scene and butch/femme identities. The interview also addresses her work life at Pace Arrow, the challenges facing LGBT couples prior to marriage equality, and two serious relationships in her life. In reference to LGBT organizations, DJ discusses Pride of the Lehigh Valley, GLORA, Kindred Spirits, and MCCLV. DJ ends the interview with a discussion of her marriage to Sandy at a Unitarian Church. INTERVIEW WITH DJ LANDIS JUNE 12, 2020 MARY FOLTZ: Well, good morning. My name is Mary Foltz, and I'm here with DJ to talk about her life and experiences in LGBT organizations in the Lehigh Valley. And this is a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. Our project has funding from the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, and we are meeting on Zoom because we're in the middle of a pandemic. And today's date is June 12, 2020. So first I just, DJ, I want to say thank you so much for doing this interview with me today. DONNA J LANDIS: You're welcome. MF: And to start, could you please state your full name and spell it for me? DL: My full name is D-O-N-N-A J Landis, L-A-N-D-I-S. But everybody calls me DJ or Deej. MF: Thank you. And will you please share your birth date? DL: June 14, 1945. MF: Thank you. And so prior to starting this interview we had talked about consent. So I just want to check back in with you, do you consent to this interview today? DL: Yes. MF: And do you consent to having this interview transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available on online spaces? DL: Sure, not a problem. MF: And do you consent to the LGBT archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats, and that might be articles or websites or presentations, things like that? DL: Sure. MF: And do you understand that you will have 30 days after the electronic delivery of the transcript of this interview to identify parts that you want to delete or withdraw from the project? DL: Yeah, I understand. MF: Great. All right, well, let's go ahead and get started. And I'm going to start the interview by just asking you, could you tell me a little bit about your childhood? DL: Well, I grew up in the coal regions, Shamokin, Pennsylvania, and I'll be seventy-five years old on Sunday. And I was always a tom boy. My mother bought me dolls, but they stayed in the box. I didn't play with dolls. I wanted guns and all the boy's stuff, all the boy's toys. And I was just playing football, baseball, I did all that stuff, and I had a lot of friends, and we just rode around. It was all the good stuff. I was never a little girl playing girl stuff. MF: What was it like to grow up in Shamokin? What was that region like? DL: It was a cult where -- it's different now than it was back then. It was a nice town, friendly, and everybody knew everybody, and it was like you did something wrong and you didn't have to worry about your parents not finding out because somebody did. Everybody knew everybody, and your Oma's going to get you, and you didn't have to worry about being safe because everybody watched out for everybody. MF: Tell me a little bit about your family. Did your family work in coal mining in Shamokin? DL: My father was in the service, and he worked for the government down in Middletown, Pennsylvania. He worked for the Army base down there, the military base. My mother didn't work. So he basically [break in audio] And I was the only child. First though I guess I better tell you I was adopted. And I was adopted at four hours old. And my biological mother and my adopted mother were best friends. And my biological father and my adopted father were cousins. And that's how it was. And I am actually related -- my aunt was married to a black man, and I have, like, 17 biracial cousins. And I love them dearly. And I am not a racist. MF: Tell me a little bit about sort of that extended family and your relationships with either your biological parents or your parents, parents who adopted you. DL: We were friendly at first, and then my biological mother and my adopted mother, like I said, they were good friends, and they thought my adopted mother couldn't have children. So what happened is when my biological mother gave birth to me they adopted me, and then when my adopted mother ended up getting pregnant there was a little bit of a rift there. So then I didn't have contact for many, many years. And then with my biological father, I did have contact with him. But you know, back then when you were adopted it was always hush-hush, nobody talked about it. And that's wrong because you should, you know, talk about it because I actually grew up with a big chip on my shoulder because I only heard people talk about, when they think I wasn't paying attention, about it. And that's not good. I think it's great now how they have open adoptions where you talk about it and all that. Because otherwise you're going to grow up like I did for until I was in my twenties with a big chip on my shoulder. And I just never trusted people then. MF: Could you say a little bit more like, why was there a chip on your shoulder? What were your feelings about being adopted? DL: I didn't understand. I didn't understand because I didn't know the story back then. Nobody talked about it. And when you hear that nobody -- your mother didn't want you, you know, people would say things and you didn't know why. And so you didn't -- you hurt, but I never would cry. I just kept everything inside. And it just hurt that, you know, you didn't know why you were adopted. And it's wrong. I really believe you should talk about it when you're growing up. Don't wait until you're in your teens and twenties to find out. Because I now, on my mother's side, I have, like, seven or eight other siblings. And I only really bother with, know two of them. And on my father's side I know the three of them, but we don't have no contact. MF: Tell me a little bit about your relationships with your parents, the parents that you lived with, your adopted parents. What was it like growing up in that family? What were those familial relationships like? DL: It was good. I mean, I was spoiled. I got everything I wanted. And but you didn't hear the words love. You know, back then you didn't hear them words love. But I was a spoiled brat. I mean, whatever I wanted I got. They bought me my first car and everything. They were good to me, but it was rough growing up because when my adopted mother got pregnant and she lost the child, then she started drinking. And then I used to get beatings and everything. And you know, she would go out. Good thing she was a loud drunker, when they would come home, her and her friends, because then they knew she was coming, and, like, she had already locked me in a room, so she would go out because my father worked, and the neighbor's would let me out so I could, you know. And then when they hear her coming they put me back in the room and lock me back in. But it was rough from the time I was, like, maybe eight until I was about eleven or twelve years old. MF: I'm curious about, you know, you describe yourself as being a tom boy. So you're kind of hurting in your family life, but it sounds like you had relationships in the community with neighbors. What was it like to be a tom boy in Shamokin when you were a young person? DL: It was good. I started doing odd jobs at nine years old. We lived -- are you there? We lived across from a grocery store. I would come home from lunch break and deliver groceries for nickels and dimes, and I would save that because I figured my own money, nobody could tell me how to spend it. And if I wanted something I would just ask my mom because, like I said, I was spoiled. But it was great. I had a lot of friends, and I was sort of like -- my girlfriends that couldn't protect herself, I was their protector. If they couldn't fight I would fight for them. And I wasn't the type that would sit and play with dolls or play girly girls. That wasn't me. MF: What was school like for you in Shamokin? DL: Oh, I liked school, and I didn't like school. I was a rebel, I guess. In high school or grade school -- I loved grade school, was a block away. It was when I got in high school I was a rebel. I would bag school, and just typical stuff. I was a rebel, I guess, because at our school back then girls couldn't take shop, and I wanted shop. We had to take home ec. That was learn to cook and sew and clean and all this for your husband and your future. Ugh. I didn't want that. I wasn't to learn to work on my car and do other kind of jobs because I had helped my dad put a motor in my car and all this. So I don't want home ec. I flunked home ec. MF: So I'm curious about your rebellious spirit. When you bagged school you said we did typical things. What were the typical things you do when you snuck off from school? DL: Oh, we would go down to different places and go get hoagies and ride around and go different towns and just do all that stuff. Of course you couldn't stay around where you was at school so you wouldn't get caught. Or because you would get detention. I had so much detention just from rebelling at home ec because I wouldn't do the home ec stuff. I wanted shop because I couldn't understand. The boys could take home ec. Why couldn't the girls take shop? And we had to wear dresses to school even in the winter time. No long pants, dresses. MF: What are some of your favorite memories from your youth? DL: How my friends and I would, especially on Saturdays, do hiking. Pack a lunch and go hiking and just walk around, different places and climb the coal banks. Believe it or not we used to hop on a moving train and ride it for seven miles. Then I walk back. On a Saturday there'd be coupons, they'd been on the Thursday paper up there, our Thursday paper be all kind of coupons in there for grocery stores, and the store across the street from our house would pay you whatever the coupon was worth, ten cents, they give you have of it in cash. So we would walk around a whole town and knock on doors and ask that we were poor. We couldn't afford the paper. Could they give us the sports section with the coupon? And I happened to knock on a door that they recognized my voice. The husband didn't, but the wife said, "Donna Jean, is that you?" Because I would say we're so poor. She said, "Does your mother know what you're doing?" Before I got home my mom found out. Boy, did I get it when I got home saying I was poor. Yeah, my dad was at work, and we didn't have a job, and I needed the coupons to buy groceries. But we made, like, $15, $20 every weekend doing that until we got caught. But I had a good childhood, lot of fun. I never stayed in the house, but you knew when to be home. You didn't have to be told. You knew when the night lights come on, get home. MF: It sounds like you and your friends were kind of outdoorsy, you know, hopping on trains, going for hikes. Can you tell me a little bit about that region of Shamokin for people who don't know what that kind of natural landscape is? What was it like to be out hiking in those areas? Did you have favorite spots to visit? DL: We would go up the mountains. There was coal holes. You had to know where the coal holes were because, you know, sometimes I would help pick coal for people that couldn't afford to buy coal for their heat. So I would help pick coal for them. And you had to know the difference between coal and slate. Because slate wouldn't burn. And it was like, there was a lot of coal holes, lot of rocks. It's mountain area. It's nothing like it used to be. But it was beautiful. You just had to know where to walk, and all over. MF: So describe what happens for you after you leave school. What is sort of the next step of your life after your adolescence? DL: Okay, so after that, after I left school, I would hang out in the little town called Kulpmont, which was like, six or eight miles -- four miles from Shamokin and in Mount Carmel and party, drink, like teenager stuff. But our parties were different. We used to go up into the mountain, [inaudible] up in the coal mountains, and we would stay up there and have our weekend parties and not come down and cause trouble. And the cops knew we were up there, and they were okay with it, long as we stayed up there and we didn't come down and cause any trouble or anything else. We would have a party, and it would last the weekend, and open the trunks of my car, and everybody had to put their keys in my car, my trunk. So you couldn't get down. You had to stay up there, not cause any trouble. And we built a pavilion that you would have, you know, you pay $10, you drink all the weekend, you have food and everything else. And we would drive to -- a bunch of us sometimes would go to Philadelphia because we had friends then that graduated and worked in Philly. At the time they worked at, used to be Bell Tel. I don't know what it was called, but and then from there we would meet there, go down there and spend a weekend and drive up to New York. There was plenty of parties. You know, you had to in-know to where the parties were. But that's how I got in to go the Village and The Stonewall. MF: Tell me more about that. Were these parties -- were they coed parties? I mean, going to Stonewall, of course, you're with LGBT people when you go into New York to Stonewall. Tell me a little bit about the kind of makeup of your friends and were you associating with LGBT people in Shamokin, or was that primarily in Philly and New York? DL: No, that was in Shamokin. In Shamokin, in the town of Shamokin the gay bars would be after 2:00. And you couldn't go earlier until after 2:00 in the morning. And of course we were underage, but that was okay. They let you in. And there was other clubs that you could go, like it was up in Berwick. It was Berwick Hotel, when you were of age, but it was down in the basement. And the first gay bar I went to was called the Lark. And it was -- the dance floor was only about 12 by 12. That's how big it was. It was small. It was in the back room of a bar. And there was another bar that we went outside of Sunbury, and you're dancing all, and I would say no clenching, no clenching. And then the other bar, it was you would go Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday it was straight. Thursday, Friday, and Saturday it was gay. So everybody knew that the town knew which was which. So if you didn't want to be with the gays you didn't go. And there was a lot of the women that would come that they were straight, but they loved being around the gay people. MF: When did you know you were gay, or when did you encounter gay community? You talked about the first gay bar that you went to, but when did you know you were a part of the gay community? DL: I guess I always -- I just was different. There was only one guy I truly, truly loved, but we couldn't be together because he was an Italian. And back then you had to be Italian to be with Italian. His wife was already picked out. But we remained friends. And I was married to a man. I got married at 19. I got divorced at 19. And I came out at 19. And him and I are friends now. We're better friends than we were married. MF: So when you say you came out at 19, what do you mean by that? Do you mean that that's when you started going to the gay nights at the bars, or, you know, what do you mean by --DL: Yup, yup. Like I said, I got married in 1964, and I really came out, was 19, and I came out in '65. But I start going to the gay bars before that, but I wasn't sure I was gay. I thought I was, but I wasn't sure because I had feelings for this girl, but I wasn't, you know, didn't act upon them or anything. I felt comfortable being around the gay people. And I wasn't sure about anything. I was just, felt comfortable being around them, but I didn't have gay feeling, you know, moved on them until I was 19 years old. MF: So I'm curious about some of the bars that you describe, like the Lark and other places. Could you describe what was a night out -- what did that look like? What kind of music did they play? What were those bars like? DL: Back then when you went to the gay bars the butch type girls would be dressed more boyish, and their girlfriends would be -- you could tell the difference. They would be dressed up nicely and, you know, like if they were going on a date with a boy. But that's how they would be dressed, not like they're dressed today. You would know a butch from a fem. And that's how you did it. And you went to the bars. You danced. You socialized and just like a couple. MF: Was the gay community in Shamokin and those coal towns -- what was the size of that community? Was it a small, insular community, or what was the size of it? DL: Very small, people knew but they didn't say nothing, to your face anyway. They might have said something behind your back. But when I came out at 19 I never changed. It was like you accept me for who I am or you don't. It's your loss. That was my attitude. And I mean, I never had a problem with, you know, housing. My jobs, they knew I was gay at my jobs, and I never had a problem. Fact, one of the jobs I worked for -- I was the first female foreman building RVs. And my two bosses were from Wyoming, and they knew I was gay, and we had a couple other gay workers there. They wanted me to go to Wyoming with them, and I said no, I wasn't going to go out that way. But I was who I was. I was upfront. I was honest. I didn't pretend to go home to my boyfriend or husband or whatever. I just, I was me, accept me how I am. And that's how I am to the day. MF: So I have one more question about the bars. So I'm curious, you went into Stonewall in the late '60s. What was that like, to go into New York City with friends from Shamokin? DL: We enjoyed it. It was wonderful. I mean, it was like wow, the Village, we loved the Village. You can go on up there. We would go every time we could come we would go up. It was just unbelievable the difference between little towns where you had to wait to go to the bars and then go to New York where it was all open. But it was bad. The night the Stonewall was raided I was supposed to be there. But my gay friends, the males, they couldn't change their own tires or nothing, so I had to do that. And that's why we didn't go. And I'm glad we didn't go. MF: So I'm curious about that, like the openness that you see in New York City versus living in a small town, did you want to continue to live in that kind of small region, that Shamokin region? Did you ever considering going to New York City, or did you really prefer the kind of small town atmosphere? DL: I really loved Philadelphia. And I loved it. I wanted to go to Philadelphia, and but then I was working. And I was accepted at -- I don't know if you remember the Philadelphia Warriors Roller Derby? I was accepted to go to the school for Little Richard, but I couldn't afford to go to Philly and not work. So I had to decline, but that broke my heart. I wanted to be a Philadelphia Warrior. MF: I'm actually not familiar with the Philadelphia roller derby. Could you tell me a little bit about what that was and what that league was? DL: It was a sport, roller derby, like, they have the different teams all over from New York and Chicago and all that where they would skate against one another. And I loved it. It was a rough game, but I loved it. It was popular back in the '60s and the -- well, not the '60s but the '70s and the '80s I guess it was. It was Buddy Atkinson, Little Richard, Judy Arnold. The older people would know it. The younger girls won't know it. They still have some now, but it's not like it was. MF: So you're working up in the kind of Shamokin region. Can you tell me a little bit about the jobs that you held during this time period? Is this the early '70s that we're talking about? DL: Yeah. I tried sewing. Like I said, I hated home ec. I tried that. I quit the job. I worked one day, and I didn't know. I sewed everything together. I didn't know that. I flunked that. But I worked building RVs. Pace Arrow I was called. You get a chassis and then you built the camper on the chassis. All you got was a chassis and you had to build everything on the chassis. And it was a joke at first when they first came out because if you were in an accident you didn't call [the body a fender?] you called a carpenter because they were made out of wood. They were top heavy. You couldn't drive if it was real windy on an interstate. You better be afraid, topped over. MF: And how long did you work on building RVs? How long were you at that job? DL: I only worked there three years, and they laid me off. They were kind because my mother had cancer, had facial cancer, so they left me collect unemployment to take care of her. MF: Tell me a little bit more about taking care of your mother? DL: She had had it in her face where soon as it would hit a different spot she would hemorrhage. And we took her to, I think it was called Saint Vincent's Hospital in New York. And there was nothing they could do. It was too far gone because she had it when she was a child at eight or nine years old, and then it came back. And that was in '75 right after my father passed away. But between that, in '65 I moved to Allentown. MF: So describe that a bit more for me. Were you living in Allentown and then driving back to care for your mother or --? DL: No, I moved to Allentown, and in '65 I came out, separated from my husband in February. March I moved to Allentown. I had my divorce in April. And in May I met Sandy, the state hospital in 1965 in May. And her and I went together for almost three years. But by that time I was wild. Nobody was going to tell me anything. I wasn't nice to her. I was really -- wasn't very nice. Like I said, I had a chip on my shoulder. And it was I did what I want when I wanted to and nobody was going to tell me anything different. And then we split. I met a wrong person that was a mistake in my life. And then I moved back home, and my father died. He died of an aneurysm. And then he died in '74, and my mom had the cancer in '75. And she died in '77. They only gave her six months, but she lived two years and two months. MF: Well, I know Sandy is an important person in your life, so could you tell me how you met her at state hospital? How did you two meet? DL: She was my boss. I went to work on WD, which was a unit down there, and she was my boss. And when I told her stories she'll say what the hell are you talking about? I'm still your boss. So but we split for almost 30 years, and we're back together now. In February we were together 26 years. Like I said, when Sandy and I split I met this woman, and I just believed everything she told me because at that time I was still not trusting people. And I still had the chip on my shoulder and everything. And in between time I ran in -- Sandy and I met in between. And I asked Sandy to take me back, and she laughed. When Sandy's nervous she laughs. So I thought oh well. The first person I ever had any relationship was a married woman in Shamokin. And she used me. And oh well, you learn from the heart -- you know, you learn from that. But out of that relationship she had, and I loved the children. And I loved her until after a while, but she had grandchildren, and I loved the grandchildren, everything, but you know, when she passed it was like I had to pay a 15 percent inheritance tax and everything. And we were together like 20 years. So it wasn't that I would go to the bars and hook up with different people at the bars. I never did that. I was like, I always had somebody in my life. MF: So the relationship after Sandy, the one that was 20 years, can you tell me a little bit about how you met each other, how that relationship started? DL: She was my neighbor. She was neighbor, and it just happened one night that she kissed me, and I thought oh, this is pretty nice. But it was rough because she was married, and she was still with her husband. And it was like, ugh, I can't do this. So then that's before I came down to Allentown and meet Sandy. That was before I met Sandy. And then after Sandy and I split I was with this girl for a couple years, and I was like, nah, I don't want someone that's going to run around on me and cheat on me. So then I ended up back with the first person I ever had kissed. MF: And did she move to Allentown to be with you, or did you sort of move back to -- DL: That's when I moved back to Shamokin. But she did help take care. And that's one of the reasons I [inaudible]. She helped take care of my mom with me. She was there with me to help take care of my mom. MF: Did the two of you live together with her children in Shamokin? DL: Yes. MF: And so can you describe a little bit what that was like, to be a same-sex couple living together in Shamokin? DL: It wasn't too bad. I guess it was harder on the oldest child because his friends used to make fun of him. And I was friends with her husband too. So it was like, you know, we were all friends. When he got sick I helped take care of him. I would go up and make sure he got all his medicines and everything, and it was, you know, we all got along. Like I said, it's like I'm who I am, you accept me, and that's how it is. She didn't bash the husband, and he didn't bash the wife. You know, it was like, we just talked, you know. If he needed something to drive, I would drive him and his girlfriend places, and, you know, he had a girlfriend, and he just drank a lot. MF: You describe after your partner passed having these sort of property taxes, and a lot of younger people won't understand why. So I'm wondering if you could explain a little bit about pre-marriage equality what it was like for gay people to own property together or to, you know, to live together and then have that relationship not be recognized by the state or the government. So could you describe a little bit about what that was like to kind of live together and own property together, et cetera? DL: It was like you were strangers living together even though you were couples. It wasn't recognized as a couple. You were just like strangers living together even though you had property and it was in both names. You had to pay like that, when she passed me on the house, and I had to pay 15 percent income tax, inheritance tax on half the property because both our names was on it. But we weren't recognized as a couple. And so everything was 15 percent, and even to today, if you're not legally married in Pennsylvania or any state you have to pay 15 percent tax. It's not like you get away with it. If you're married you only pay nothing really or six percent. But back then it was, you know, being legally married wasn't up until what, about few years ago? I don't remember. I remember fighting for legal marriage with Trish and all of them. But back then it was rough. You had every -- you filed income tax. You had to file it separately. You couldn't file jointly. Even though you supported them you couldn't claim them. MF: [inaudible] some of your favorite memories from that partnership, that 20 years together? DL: I would say the birth of the first grandchild. I love him dearly. He was my favorite. I have to say he was my favorite. But there was, you know, the proms, the weddings, the graduations, typical all, like, if you were a married couple, the typical thing of what goes on with their kids, their dates, their broken hearts and just the typical things of what a married couple would do if they had children, the ups and downs, the fighting. But it was -- I can't say it was bad. It was good times, a lot of good times. MF: You're really talking about the beauty of that extended family, the children and the grandchildren. Could you talk a bit about how her extended family and how your extended family accepted you or didn't accept you as really a marriage relationship? How did your families respond to your relationship? DL: It was okay. I didn't have a problem. The kids called me Aunt. And everybody accepted -- like I said, when you're in Shamokin it was like everybody was family anyway. My aunt, you called my aunt Aunt. I called her family Aunt or Uncle, and it was accepted. It was everybody knew everybody. Like I said, it was like everybody knew everybody so it was like you're aunt or uncle to everybody almost. MF: So during this 20-year period are you working at this time, or what is happening? DL: Yeah. MF: Tell me a little bit about where you were working and what kinds of jobs you had. DL: Well, I was working at Pace Arrow, and then that -- like I said, my mother got cancer. Then after that I went to work at, I can't remember the name of it, but it was a fabric place, and I was what they called an assorter. And it was in a sewing factory, but I didn't sew. We got material from a plant or from wherever it came from, and we assorted it into bundles, and it went to the sewers. And I had a partner, and they all knew I was gay too. I mean, like I said, Shamokin was a small town. And you know, all the towns up there, you know people from working around, and basically I didn't have -- like, I never had a problem because I was up front with people. I was honest. They knew who I was. I wasn't pretending to be. I think when you pretend to be something you're not and you lie about it people tend to rather be, in my opinion anyway, rather you being honest and be up front about something than oh, I'm going home to my boyfriend or my husband and that's not true. And I mean, I was, like I said, a rebel. I have tattoos. I have, like, maybe 10 of them. I got them when I was, you know, when my mom said don't dare, and that was, oh, don't say that to me. But I got them. I had a woman's name tattooed on my arm. So you know, what am I doing? MF: You early talked about the kind of butch-fem emphasis in the bar culture, and I'm wondering, how did you feel about kind of butch-fem in the bar culture or in the larger sort of gay community? DL: How do I feel about it? MF: Yeah, were you a part of butch-fem culture, or were you sort of outside of that? DL: I guess I was part of it. I always dressed that way, so it was nothing new to me. My hair's longer now than it has been in years because I can't get a haircut, but it was -- I didn't wear fem clothes. In fact, when I worked -- and this is funny, but it's a true story. When I was building RVs my niece was getting -- she always says she was my niece, was getting married, and I said I had to go get a dress for the wedding. And my boss said to me if you're going to get a dress I want a picture of it, and I'll pay you for working. So I went. I didn't get the dress, but I put my partner's dress on, made her take the picture, and I showed it to my boss, and I got paid for the day. I didn't own dresses. I still don't own dresses. The last dress I wore was I think in '63 or '62 when my cousin got married. MF: So did you have relationships with other butch women? And if so did you talk a little bit about being butch or what it was like to be butch during that time period? DL: Yeah, there was a lot of us that was there. We all dressed the same. And you just knew. And I'm proud of myself. I can always -- and I guess that's one thing that they knew. I never crossed the line of a friend. If a friend was involved with somebody I would -- I guess you would say put the make on them. I never did that to a friend. A friend's a friend. I would never cross that line. MF: So I'm curious about [break in audio]. I'm curious about your tattoos because you brought them up. You said you have a woman's name tattooed on your arm. You've got 10 tattoos. DL: Yeah. MF: Tell me a little bit about your tattoos. DL: Well, our neighbor's son was doing tattoos. And he needed people to practice on. So I said sure. My mom said don't you dare. Wrong thing to say to me, don't. And I got it. It's a big thing with flowers and double hearts and a blue bird and all that. I have a black rose. I have an eagle tattoo. I have a dream catcher tattoo on my other shoulder. On my back I have a yin-yang. On the other side I have a Pegasus on the other with the rainbow. On my leg Sandy's songives tattoos out in Minnesota, but this was in California. When Sandy and I had our holy union, Mark and Michelle came, that's his wife, but he's remarried now. I have a cherub on my leg with double hearts. The cherub represents the grandchildren, and the double hearts is Sandy and I. I've got hot stuff devil, so. And then I've just got the last tattoo I got from Mark was a ribbon because Sandy had lung cancer. And I have it white with her name on it and my color as a care taker and the date when she had her lung cancer. So that's my tattoos. MF: They look beautiful. The one on your shoulder looks amazing, but I could see that one a little bit more. Oh, that's so cool. So you describe -- this partner had an untimely death from the 20-year relationship. What happened at that period? You know, tell me a little bit about what happened around that time? DL: Well, she had breathing problems. You know, we all smoked back then. Everybody smoked. And she had asthma. And she had it for many, many, many years. And like I said, we grew up on that street, so I know her for, you know, from when her firstborn -- and it just was getting worse and worse and worse. And her oldest son and I took her to Hershey Medical. And he gave her only six months to live because her lungs -- her one lung collapsed. But she didn't know it. She didn't want to know. So, you know, we didn't tell her. And a few months later she was rushed to the hospital, and this doctor came in and told her -- she asked did she have cancer? He said no, but you're dying anyway. So she just gave up. So she died November 11, I think it was, in '93. And she made me promise to call Sandy and tell Sandy because she said you always loved Sandy. You never gave up. You never stopped loving Sandy. You would never let anybody say anything bad about Sandy. So I called Sandy, and I was just happy that we were going to be friends for the way I treated her. Because I was nasty to Sandy. Like I said, the chip on my shoulder wasn't good. And because Sandy has two boys. But anyway, I called Sandy, and she invited me down for around Christmas time. I came down. And I thought we would just be friends, but we ended up getting back together. And I love her dearly. She's the best thing to happen to me. And we talk now, which we didn't before, because, you know, we were both 19 years old, and I come from a small town in Shamokin into a big city, and nobody was telling me what to do. I regret how I treated her. I regret that every day of my life. MF: So when you came down from Shamokin to Allentown to visit Sandy, tell me a little bit about, like, how you got back together. How did you make that transition from friends or potential friendship back to partners? DL: Well, we always stayed in contact, but my former partner used to talk more to Sandy than I did. Sandy and I would say hi, how are you? Okay, yeah, me too, blah, blah, blah. But her, my former partner and Sandy would talk more than I. And we would even come down and visit. Because see, I had people from Shamokin moved down here, and that's when I moved to Allentown. I stayed with people from Shamokin that was family friend from family like grandfather lived with them, you know. And so I lived with them when I came down here until I got my apartment across the street from them. And then when Meg passed I come down. I called Sandy, and she invited me down. And it was a little strange at first, but then I kept coming down. She invited me down, and we got back together. MF: So when you got back together did you move to Allentown then, or where were you living at that time? DL: I still had my home in Shamokin, but I would come down every couple weeks, and I knew I was going to move. I didn't know where I was going to move. This is before Sandy and I got back. I knew I was leaving Shamokin. I just couldn't handle Shamokin anymore. Because there was -- some of my former partner's children and I didn't get along after, you know, because I felt they could have done more than they did for their mother instead of just stop in five minutes and say hi, how are you. And I felt they could have came because it was like 24-7 I was there. I could have needed a break. When you take care of somebody you could use a break. But I didn't get that. I mean, I went to the store, and I had to be back, pay bills and everything, and be back in a half an hour. And it was like, they said oh, I should have done more. I said yeah, you should have done more. You could have done more. And it was like I paid for everything. The only thing they paid for is their own flowers. But I paid for everything. And the one thought I should just turn over the house to them. And I didn't. I sold it. And I gave the oldest grandson a nice amount of money. A thousand dollars I gave him. But then you have to -- I only sold the house 20,000. It was a house, a storefront and an apartment. Down here I could have got like $150,000. I just wanted out of Shamokin. I didn't care. I just was at the point where it was getting nasty. So I just wanted out away from all the trouble. It was like, I don't need any more problems. It's, you know, you can all be on your own now. You're not young children. You're all married. You all have children. You can be on your own. And, you know, because I didn't sign the house over to the one it was a big upset. And it's -- I just felt I could not live in Shamokin and be happy. So I knew I was going -- this was in November I knew. And I just knew I was getting out of Shamokin one way or another. And I just had to get out. And then I stayed with friends. And I came back and forth to Allentown with friends, and then in March I moved down here, March of '94. And I just went back and forth until I sold the house. I mean, anything I needed done I had to pay for up there. They didn't help. Everything I needed done it was I had to go up, cut the grass, trim the hedges. Nobody did it for nothing. It was always about money. MF: So you moved to Allentown in March of, I think you said 1994. Tell me a little bit about the neighborhood that you lived in Allentown. Like, what was it like to move to Allentown in the 1990s? DL: Where we're at now, we're in the same house. We're in the same house, Sandy's house, and neighborhood's fine. They all know, and we get along. Actually, Sandy works at the state hospital forty-one and a half years. And her parents love me. And actually in 2001 I changed my name to Landis. That's Sandy's name. My name was Golda. When I met Liz and Trish I was Golda, my married name. And in 2001 when I changed my name Sandy's parents, her mom especially really loved it, that I became a Landis. And we're still in the same house, twenty-sixyears still in the same house. And the neighbors, I have no problem with them. I watch every -- I know everything that's going on in the neighborhood. I watch. I know new cars and old cars and what belongs here and doesn't belong here. MF: So it sounds like -- did you move in with Sandy, or did you -- when you moved back to Allentown in March, did the two of you moved in together then? DL: Sandy already had this house. Sandy already bought the house. She moved here. She's living here now in June will be twenty-seven years. So she had the house six months before I came down. I taught Sandy how to drive. MF: Tell me that story. How'd you teach her to drive? DL: We got in trouble because I taught her how to drive on state property. But I thought it was safe. That's better than out on the road. But I taught her how to drive, and yeah, but we got in trouble for it. MF: How did you get in trouble? DL: Because of her driving on the state property without a license. MF: So when you moved to Allentown, you move in with Sandy in March, tell me a little bit about what else was happening in your life in 1994 in Allentown. DL: Well, I was trying to sell my property up there. I mean, what I did, I rented it to sell for a year. I went to my very first pride fest. The year before I heard about it. I read about it on TV. But I went to my first pride fest. I called Liz and Trish. And I called Mickey Katz. I don't know if you know Mickey Katz. And I talked to them. And I started volunteering. I went over, and I met Liz and Trish. And I start volunteering. I just thought it was wonderful that they had something like that for gay people. And I volunteered for our pride fest. I went to Harrisburg's for their pride fest. And I went to Philly for their pride fest and worked them. MF: What did it feel like for you to be at that first pride festival in Allentown? DL: It was wonderful. And it, you know, all this and, you know, no problems. It was different back, you know. This was wonderful. They had something for gay people that I never knew they had. Well, the very first gay pride down here was in '93, I think they started it. And then I ended up going being on the pride board for a couple years. But it was wonderful. I just totally enjoyed it. MF: When you volunteered at the different pride festivals, what did you do? Were you setting up booths? What was your volunteering -- DL: Well, in Philadelphia I worked the beer booth because Allentown didn't have a beer booth. And it was funny. The second time we did that -- I did that for a couple years. Sandy went with me, and it was I was doing the beer, and she thought oh, I couldn't handle it. She couldn't. So she did the vodka, the Absolut vodka. And when it first opened she said oh, I can handle this only one. She gave them the first vodka, and she turned around, and she said where the hell did they all come from? But yeah, we did work the booths. We went and helped. We did the same thing in Harrisburg. In Harrisburg I got them to come up and help up here on Pride with us, and then in return I went down and helped with them. And I helped with Philly. MF: Tell me a little bit about the Pride board. What was it like to be on that board? How did the board operate? What was it like to try and set up the pride festival here? DL: Back when I was on it was different than what it is now. It was like you send out, get in touch with vendors, and I was helping with the setting up, marking off the field where the booths would go and all this. And then I would stay overnight and sit overnight so they wouldn't vandalize the vending places until we set up. And then we would work it, work the booths, and do that. And like, back then we didn't charge to get in. And then we -- I was part of the very first parade with them, Hamilton Street into Pride. You didn't realize how expensive it was for the police to block off the streets for to have the parade come down the streets. That was, I think, the only parade that we had. We had music and everything else. It was great. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Like I said, ours never had alcohol. And I'm not sure if I like the idea of, you know, charging people, but you know, that's only my opinion. I'm not sure what -- then we had the protestors. Then I was a silent witness for the protestors. And we had it down in Harrisburg. Yeah. It was rough at first. MF: Tell me a little bit about, so you say it was rough at first. Tell me why. How many protestors came out? What was happening with the protesting of Pride? DL: The screaming and the yelling, and you know, it was like why couldn't you just let us be instead of protesting? We're not hurting nobody. You know, and God doesn't say nothing about us. You know, it's you love who you love. It doesn't matter what sex you are or what race you are. Love is love. I'm sure, you know, God didn't put us on this earth to say you have to love this person. You have to love that person. The main thing is He don't want us to hate. And to me the protestors was just about hate. MF: Were there a lot of protestors at the first Pride? DL: No, actually that wasn't our first Pride. I guess it was couple years later that the protestors came. And the first ones maybe if they were there they were across the street. You didn't even have any, you know -- it was when that, I guess it's what was his name, Philips or something like that. He started the big mouth stuff. The others one were just, you know, so-so. They were against it, but you didn't have it until he came with his big mouth. MF: What was it like to be a silent witness? Can you tell me what that is and what it felt like to be a silent witness? DL: What it was is you just stood there, and you kept your mouth shut. And that was hard for me. And you just didn't let them get to the people that was walking in to the Pride Fest. You stood there and just stood there quietly, and no matter what they said to you you ignored them. But you blocked them from getting people, you know, getting in the other gay people's face. You were like a bridge between them. I don't know if they still have them or not. MF: Can you tell me -- you said at one point it was that the parade was so expensive because you had to block off the streets. When you were on the board, how were you funding the pride festivals? Did you have donors? How did you raise that money to make that happen for the --DL: Well, you know, when you were sold a spot, depending on the space you bought, you rented it, you paid for it, and that's how we got money. And then we had different, you know, depending on your size of the spot you wanted and where you wanted it costs the money. And that's how you made money. And you know, you sold stuff, but I don't know if we had sponsors or not. We might have. I think we had a lot of donations. Like we put the fliers out. They were donated by different people. And people that -- like a flier, people rented space to put in the, you know, paid for an ad to put in the advertising. MF: So you're working on the Pride board in Allentown. What other LGBT organizations were you involved with in Allentown during this period of the '90s? DL: There was one called Kindred Spirits, [GLOR?], and with Liz and Trish it was a different name back then. It was PA- Gala. And I can't think of the other ones, but it was different, quite a few. I tried to help with every one I could. MF: Yeah, Liz and Trish describe you as, like, a volunteer all over the valley, that you were just sort of like, just helping in any way you can. I'm not familiar with Kindred Spirit. Could you talk a little bit about what that was and how you worked with that organization? DL: It was like a get together. You would meet if you had to talk. Most of them was like, didn't have a partner at the time, but I did. And it was like we meet at -- we used to meet at Unitarian church at Center City in Bethlehem at Center Street and talk, say, about like -- it was like socializing gathering to talk about your feelings and what happened and all this. And then we would leave there for about an hour or so, and then we would go to Diamonz or something before the charge, get in. We would go there and just drink, dance, shoot pool. We would meet every -- I think it was a Friday. I believe it was a Friday. And the other, GLOR was male and females. Kindred Spirit was mostly all female. GLOR was a mixture. It was, I think it cost you like $10 a year to join. And it was like different people had something at their house every weekend. Somebody else had something or every month somebody would have something. And it was like you get together, potlucks, and stuff like that. And it was like maybe go hiking. They get together to go hiking or down to Longwood Gardens, who wanted to go, or go golfing or something like that but in a group. And I don't know if it's still going on or not, but it sort of phased out after a few years. I guess we all got older. I know at first they used to think I made Sandy up because she was always working. But she worked second shift at the state hospital, you know. But it was funny. So we had a event at our house, and then at first they said I paid her, somebody to do it until at last a couple came later, stayed later, and then they realized I had to ask her where stuff was because she knew and I didn't know. But yeah, it was funny. MF: Were you involved with any religious organizations during this time period like MCCLV? DL: Yes. MF: Tell me about -- DL: I belonged to [inaudible]. MF: Tell me about your involvement with MCCLV. DL: I went there. I was at a birthday party, and this friend of mine was there, and she was leaving to go to church. It was at Sunday night at 6:00 or for first six. And I said can I come with you? She said sure. And I went. They were in -- sharing a church, Unitarian church in Bethlehem. And I enjoyed it. And that's the first I went to church down here with MCC. I was a member. I belonged there 17 years. I was on the board. I was on the property board for six years. And I helped move with the church and all of that. There's where I fell. We moved from Ford Street. Was it Ford Street? From Merchant Square. We were at Merchant Square on Vultee Street. We moved from there to Ford Street in Allentown. And I was working at the church, and I fell 15 feet and broke my leg. But yeah, I belonged to MCC for 17 years. And now I belong to St. Mark's, Lutheran church. MF: And when you first started going to MCCLV, could you describe how it felt to be a part of a church community that's primarily LGBT? DL: I thought it was wonderful. It was really, really nice. I thought it was great. And lot of the people that I knew from Kindred Spirits and that went there. But yeah, I was on their board for six boards. I was property chair for six years. I really enjoyed MCC. But then, you know, time comes where you move on. MF: Can you describe why you decided to move on and a little bit about that kind of religious journey to a different church? DL: Oh, how can I say it nicely? I just felt maybe different. I felt differently about things that the church -- I just felt I know who I am. I know who I was since I'm 19 years old. And it's not all about just the gays. There's other people, just because they're not gay, that don't mean that you can't be friends with. And it's just time to move on. I just felt it wasn't the same as I was first in love with the church. Things, personalities changed. People changed. And speaking, I just felt when I -- you know, you ask me a question, I'm going to speak my mind. And you don't like it, and friendships change. I'm trying to be very polite and not say nothing but being honest. And it felt time for a change. MF: So how did you find your new church? And what has that experience been like for you? DL: Well, friends of ours that went to MCC, she was a secretary at St. Mark's. And they got tickets for Elvis impersonator, and they know I liked Elvis. And she called me up and said come and meet them. You know, come. So we went there, and there was people there that Sandy worked with at the hospital and kept saying join, come join this called Sharing Life. You'll love it. So we ran into -- so we did. Sandy went, and I went in November. So we seen the Elvis impersonator. So we went to the Sharing Life, and what that is is it's people from the church that have this deal with mentally ill. And the nurses and all that from the state hospital where Sandy worked started this. And what it is is different patients from the -- they don't call them patients now. They're clients or started this where once a month the beginning of the month they had crafts. So many people come for crafts. On the third Wednesday of the month they come, we give them something to eat, and we have bingo or a dance or something like that. And we enjoyed that. And the people was so accepting of Sandy and I being gay that they were so wonderful. And I said to Sandy, eh. This was in November, and I said that February was our anniversary. I said let's go to church. I'd like to see this church. Because the church was beautiful. And we went in, and the people were so accepting. It was like -- it was great. And I remember the sermon. The pastor said we're here for the people, not for the church. And I said, I like that. So then we went a couple times, and then we missed for two weeks because we went on vacation. And when we came back everybody said oh my God, you're here. You're here. We thought you didn't like us and that you weren't coming back. So we are now members of the church. I'm on the church counsel. I love the church, and I love their outreach. We do a pantry, open-door pantry. Twice a month we give people food that's in our zip code because there's so many we can't do it all. Because ours is a food pantry where they pick what they want except for now with this virus going on they tell us what they want and we fill the bag. Because we give them meat, sometimes eggs, milk, cheese. So it's not like where we fill a bag and just hand it to them. They pick what they want. I just love their outreaches, and I love the church and the people. It's the people. They love you for who you are. MF: You really have so many stories about volunteering or being on leadership, both in LGBT organizations but in your church organizations both at MCCLV and now with your Lutheran congregation. Could you tell me a little bit about why volunteering and taking on leadership roles in community organizations has been important in your life? DL: Well actually, they asked me to become one of the leaders. They asked me. I was just a member over a year, and they called and asked me to be on their board. And I was honored. I said I'm not even a member only a little over a year and you're asking me to be on your board. I was honored that they asked, you know. So that's how it is. They asked me. And I'm honored. And I told them right from the beginning my mouth sometimes got me in trouble. And they were happy. Because I speak my mind, and that's where it got me in trouble at MCC. You ask me a question and I'm going to answer it, and if I feel something's wrong I'm going to speak my mind, and that's what happened. MF: I'm wondering if we could talk a little bit about just kind of to turn back to you and Sandy, did you have a commitment ceremony or, you know, something prior to the passage of marriage equality? DL: Yes, we had a holy union back in 1998 at the Unitarian church where we had that. My family from Delaware all came. They all love Sandy. And it's like you can't accept Sandy. And before my biological mother died we mend the fences, and, you know, I said this is my partner, and if you can't accept her you're history. You're not as important to me as she is. And that's how it is. They can't accept Sandy then we're history. And in 2001 we had, in Connecticut, we had a civil union. We can't get legally married in Pennsylvania because I would lose my benefits. That's why we -- not legally married in Pennsylvania or we would be because I'm a fixed, very low. Like, I only get $1,000 to live on. And my medicine, because I have COPD, two of my inhalers are over $1,000. MF: Can you describe the civil union ceremony for me? What was that like? DL: Well, our holy union at the Unitarian, both Sandy's sons walked her down the aisle. And the pastor, I forget her name, but we have her pictures and everything, she married us. But it was great seeing her walking down the aisle with both her sons there. And her one son calls me Mom Number Two. But he's more laid back. The older son is -- he lived in California, so you can tell how laid back he is compared to the other son, but we get along good. MF: So now in your seventies, how would you describe your relationship with Sandy now that you've been together for so many years and you're in your seventies, you're kind of in this, like, really beautiful part of your relationship because you've been together so long. Describe that for me. DL: I still love her with all my heart. And we talk, which we never did in the beginning back in the '60s. We didn't talk. We talk. We're honest with one another. And like, she'll say how are -- like if I'm not feeling good I'll say I'm good. She'll say honest? And if I'm not feeling -- I won't say honest unless I mean it. But we talk. We don't just do something. No matter what it is we talk about, give each other's opinion on everything. We trust one another. We don't hang in bars. We're home, basically home bodies. We like to travel. But with this going on we're not planning no vacations. We already canceled our vacations for this year. But next year we're planning to drive to Minnesota to see her oldest son Mark. Michael lives down in Phoenixville, but with this going on we don't go to see him either. But it's still wonderful. We talk. We don't leave the house without kissing each other goodbye and saying we love each other. We never go to bed without kissing and saying goodnight and love each other. We never do that. And it's great. We laugh. We watch TV. We read. Right now I'm working on a puzzle, and she'll help me pick out pieces. But it's wonderful because we might disagree. We still say thank you, please. We treat each other with respect. MF: Well, we're getting close to the end of the interview. So I want to ask just maybe one or two more questions. In your seventies, as you look back on your experiences and really the kind of LGBT movements from the '69 and Stonewall, you know, through the present, how do you think things have changed for LGBT people? What have you sort of witnessed across your life? DL: Well, I don't remember the movie, but they showed a movie at NCCC one time. And I was there helping one of the groups out. And the younger people that was younger than me were in there that didn't come out as early as I came out. And when they came out, and they kept thanking me. And it's like, for what, you know? I don't consider myself a hero or warrior or nothing else. I'm just me, plain old me. And it's a lot different. Now I see people walking hand in hand, you know, couples, and I think wow, what a difference, what a difference. They didn't realize what it was like to go to a bar after 2:00 in the morning to be with yourself and friends. And I got a nickname called Bobbie because I was, like I said, I was butchy, and this drag queen thought I was a guy. And I told him no. He said from now on you're Bobbie to me. And so I did a couple drag shows at the church, and I went by Bobbie. But it's so different. And they don't realize how lucky they are that they can walk down the street hand in hand and not get bashed or beat up or anything because a lot of that was going on. We fought for a lot of this. I remember so many years standing on Hamilton Street fighting for gay marriage in the freezing cold. But most of the people, I can only say I think only twice I ever had something thrown at me during that time. Most of the people past and honked their horns. But there was other places where there was bashing, like with Mathew Shepard and a couple others. You know, the movement back then was very different. You had to be really close and, you know, different now. They're lucky. Things has changed, and they're lucky to have it changed. Some people lost their jobs. Some people lost their homes. Some families put them out. My family stuck by me. Sandy's family stuck by her. But we were lucky. But some wasn't as lucky. MF: Have we missed anything today in this interview that you really wanted to share today in our conversation? Is there something that you'd like to share that we haven't addressed yet? DL: I would just say not to be ashamed of who you are or who you love. Love is love, no matter what color, what race, or who it is. Love is love. And don't be ashamed of who you love. And don't hide who you love. MF: Thank you so much, DJ. It's just been such a pleasure talking with you today. DL: You're quite welcome. END OF AUDIO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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D.J. Landis, June 12, 2020
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DJ Landis discusses early childhood and young adulthood in Shamokin, PA, her thoughts about being adopted, and her family life. DJ addresses a number of gay bars in small towns and cities as well as LGBT social scene and butch/femme identities. The interview also addresses her work life at Pace Arrow, the challenges facing LGBT couples prior to marriage equality, and two serious relationships in her life. In reference to LGBT organizations, DJ discusses Pride of the Lehigh Valley, GLORA, Kindred Spirits, and MCCLV. DJ ends the interview with a discussion of her marriage to Sandy at a Unitarian Church.
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LGBT-05
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2020-06-12
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Stories of Lehigh Valley LGBTQ+ Community Members (2022 - )
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Mary Foltz
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David Moyer
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5.4 January 21, 2022 David Moyer Part 1, January 21, 2022 LGBT-23 1:42:38 LVLGBT-2022 Stories of Lehigh Valley LGBTQ+ Community Members (2022 - ) Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository Support for the collection of this interview was provided by the American Council of Learned Societies (ACLS). trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg David Moyer Mary Foltz video/mp4 MoyerDavid_20220121_video_trimmed.mp4 1.0:|19(3)|52(7)|73(11)|92(6)|107(13)|128(5)|143(9)|158(14)|181(2)|198(3)|215(19)|228(3)|245(8)|262(12)|281(12)|296(9)|315(15)|336(5)|353(9)|372(12)|389(8)|406(2)|417(20)|432(11)|447(11)|464(3)|481(13)|498(17)|515(5)|536(13)|557(8)|576(18)|591(4)|602(11)|617(11)|634(7)|651(11)|668(10)|685(14)|698(14)|717(9)|730(10)|745(2)|760(9)|773(7)|790(11)|805(6)|822(15)|837(5)|856(2)|871(10)|890(13)|909(13)|934(2)|957(11)|978(4)|995(11)|1012(18)|1031(10)|1046(15)|1063(18)|1082(14)|1099(4)|1118(2)|1131(9)|1148(2)|1165(19)|1184(10)|1205(8)|1224(16)|1241(11)|1260(18)|1275(14)|1294(12)|1315(6)|1332(12)|1355(5)|1374(14)|1395(2)|1408(10)|1425(11)|1442(15)|1459(3)|1480(13)|1499(2)|1516(14)|1533(11)|1552(4)|1567(16)|1586(12)|1603(15)|1618(18)|1633(8)|1646(6)|1663(14)|1700(14)|1723(17)|1744(3)|1761(8)|1780(5)|1793(7)|1810(12)|1825(9) 0 https://youtu.be/Q1Wsr0F1Dbo YouTube video English 36 Interview Introductions MARY FOLTZ: My name is Mary Foltz, and I’m here with David Moyer to talk about his life and experiences in LGBT organizations in the Lehigh Valley as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. Our project has funding from ACLS this semester, and David and I are meeting at Muhlenberg College in the Rare Books room. The date today is January 21, 2022. So, David, thank you so much for being here with me today, and to start, I just have a few quick questions. Could you please state your full name and spell it for me? 
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 ; DAVID MOYER: Okay. David Kenneth Moyer, D-A-V-I-D, K-E-N-N-E-T-H, M-O-Y-E-R. 0 119 Childhood in the Lehigh Valley MF: Fabulous, all right, so let’s go ahead and get started, and, David, I thought I could -- we could begin by you may be sharing a little about your childhood. 
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 ; DM: Well, with all these I dos, I feel like we’re married now, so. (laughter) Well, thank you for asking me to do this. It’s my pleasure, and anything that I can help, I’m more than willing to do that. I don’t know where to start because there’s so much, so here we go. Well, it was a cold and stormy night -- no, that’s not right. 0 448 Exploring Sexuality DM: My first encounter with anyone sexually was with Nicholas, and we would do pretty much the same thing that Bobby and I did. And then later on, I kind of got involved with Gene, the Italian, and he was the older, older one, and he was the first one that I actually performed oral sex on. Now I was about eight or nine I’d say at the time, and I thought, wow, this is great, I like this, but I never said anything to anybody about it, and I just -- we always kept this to ourselves. But then Gene did say to me, he says, “Don’t you dare say anything to anybody.” I says, “No, why would I? I want to keep this all to myself, I’m not going to share this.” 0 578 Weekends in Catasauqua/First Love DM: So I guess later on, as the years were going up, I was going to school, and I would spend weekends with my grandparents up in Catasauqua, they live in Catasauqua. My grandmother’s name was Esta, E-S-T-A, and my grandfather’s name was Paul, and my grandmother had a brother whose name was Abner, and he was -- he had been in the Army, but he had been discharged, he had done his 20 years, so he was home. He took a liking to me, and I always thought that he was really nice and whatever. And I had spent a lot of time out there especially in the summer months when school wasn’t in, so I had a lot of free time. But my grandparents always liked to throw Friday night or Saturday night parties, and they had done that one weekend. 0 905 Time at Camp Greenwood /Navigating Sexual Relationships DM: So now, I’m getting into my teen years, and I had a job as a newspaper delivery boy when they used to deliver newspapers -- well they still do, but not the way that they used to. Every summer if you were a newspaper boy, you were able to get a free week at a boys’ camp up in Carbon County at -- it was called Camp Greenwood, and it was on Greenwood Lake, which was -- right next to Lake Hauto. The first two years I went up as a camper, and it was fun because it was all boys. Boys camp was eight weeks’ long and then the first -- last two weeks in August was girls. The girls always got the short end of the stick because it’s just the way it was then -- still is now when you look at things, how things are going. But it was quite interesting. 0 1662 Time in the Navy Reserves DM: Like this time now, I’m in the military, I’m gone. I went to boot camp in Philadelphia when they had a boot camp there for the reserves, and nothing happened at boot camp. I was too scared for one thing but not -- but just that what have I gotten myself into? Because I know I didn’t want to go into the -- I didn’t really go into the Army, and I knew that I wasn’t going to be Marine Corps material, and I really didn’t know anything about the air force, so I thought I had -- even though I had an uncle who was -- my uncle Abner was in the Army, I had -- my cousin Jimmy was a Navy man, and he looked really good in uniform, but he had nothing there. I had gone for my Army physical ; this is in 1962 because I was already graduated from high school, I was working up to Wilkes-Barre and we went through the whole thing, the written test, you have to do an exam, and then you always a full physical. 0 2155 Being Stationed in Gulfport, MS / Spending Time in New Orleans DM: So, I now go to Gulfport. Now, there was a guy in my A school in Great Lakes, and his name was David, the same as mine, and he and I were vying for the same guy that I wound up getting, so we were kind of like at odds with each other while we were there. I don’t know where David went. Like I said, I went to Philadelphia, and Ron went to St. Albans. So, I get down to Gulfport, Mississippi, and I’m checking in, and the first person that meets me is David, and I’m thinking, oh, no, this is not going to go well because we didn’t like each other. 0 2521 Serving in Vietnam DM: I know, I know that when I was in Vietnam, the group of us that were gay hung around together, and everybody knew that we were gay, the commanding officer knew that we were gay. But because the job that we did was important, we didn’t flaunt our sexuality, and as long as we did what we were there to do, who cares what you are. I mean we had one guy, and he was the commanding officer’s personal driver, so whenever he had this -- he had to go somewhere off the base, he was the one. He was the only one that was discharged -- not for being gay. He had contracted sexually transmitted disease six times while he was in country. Two is it, and he overlooked that, they said, “That’s it, you’re out.” So he was the only one that was discharged for -- and not even being gay but for having that many sexual transmitted diseases in the time that we were there, so... But in the time that I was in country, you were given a week of what’s called R& ; R, rest and recreation, so I decided to go to Japan for my R& ; R. 0 2888 Returning to Civilian Life / Attending Nursing School / Coming Out / The Gay Scene in Allentown
 ; DM: So, I come back, and now, the wild days are starting, and I am back at the state hospital and then these two women came in from Northampton County Community College and did an in-service for the orderlies, because we were considered orderlies, about a new program that were starting up with the college of nursing program, a two-year nursing, and was anybody interested. So I thought, why not? I went to nursing school. That was from ’68 to ’70. I was the first male to graduate from the nursing program, and I got a job at St. Luke’s. I was the first male nurse to work in labor and delivery. I was there for 65 deliveries, three sets of twins, and a set of triplets. 0 3610 Allentown's First Male Go-go Dancer
 ; DM: So, he opened up this -- the bar, and he asked me because he knew I knew how to dance and stuff like that. He says, “I want to have some entertainment in here, and I’d like to have like a go-go boy-type thing to bring in patrons,” so he said, “Are you interested?,” and I said, “Yeah, yeah.” The pay wasn’t great, but tips were good. And I got to tell you that he had been involved with -- one, two, three, four -- four different bars, okay. Every bar that he had, that he had me work at, he had sex with me on the bar after the place closed, and so... So I said, “Yeah,” so I was the go-go boy, and I was the first go-go boy in Allentown when that stuff was starting to get up because you had the go-go girl dancers and all this other, but you didn’t have guys doing that stuff. And then if there was guys, they were in the straight bars where a lot of the women would go, almost like the Chippendale type thing, but I wasn’t stripping. 0 3878 Trips to Atlantic City / Taking in the Nightlife DM: So from that time prior to all of that, we now have Atlantic City. Atlantic City was exciting ; It was like another version prior to me going to -- well no, I take that back. Atlantic City to me was like the New Orleans of the East Coast, right? The gay life down there was so much fun. Now I had graduated from nursing school, I’m working where I’m working, and I was living with a friend of mine who just passed away four months ago, he was older than me. 0 4858 Meeting Will / Death of Mother DM: So one of the women that I worked with at Olin, her name is Donna, and she had a partner who eventually became my wife but... So she would go to these different things, but they got laid off and then they moved from Allentown to Delaware, and then from Delaware they moved to -- back to New York because my ex-wife was originally from New York. Donna is from -- it’s either Pottstown or Pottsville ; I always get those two mixed up. Anyway to make a long story short, I am now -- I have now moved out of Mother Vern’s house, and I am living in Terre Hill, the trailer park ; I became trailer trash. 0 5403 Getting Married DM: So she came down, and she was with me for -- getting the arrangements and the lawyer and all that good stuff, the funeral, and she went back on Christmas Eve. We buried my mother on Christmas Eve and then her and Donna were coming down for New Year’s Eve, to spend New Year’s Eve with us, which is what they did. And Will was a smoker, a cigarette smoker, and had run out cigarettes, so he and Donna went to the store to get cigarettes and some more booze. I had just gotten out of the shower, and Betsy had given me a bottle of Calvin Klein Obsession, which I loved, loved. So I put some on, and I’m still not dressed yet, and she comes over to me and puts her hands under my robe and gets me all excited, and she drops her pants, and we had sex under the Christmas tree. 0 5695 Other Items to Cover
 ; MF: We’re at 90 minutes if you can believe it, and so this is typically where we’d start to wind down in the interview. I think we have a lot more to talk about, and perhaps we should schedule a second interview.
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 ; DM: Oh, okay. 
 ; 
 ; MF: But I don’t want to stop you abruptly. So we’ve talked about a kind of first, maybe even the half of your life. And before we close the interview today, I’m just wondering if there’s anything about what you’ve shared so far -- and we’ll do a second interview, so we’ll get into more it -- 0 5828 Relationship with First Love, Robert DM: What I really wanted to talk about also was my first love -- my other first love between my uncle and William, and that was Robert. I met Robert in the bathroom of Arner’s Diner, which was in Allentown. The diner is still the diner, but it’s not in the spot that it was originally. It’s now at the corner of Ninth and Linden, and I think it’s the city something or other. But anyway, we had been in Rube’s, and after Rube’s closed, the only places you’d go to was the diner, otherwise you went home because there was no bookstores or anything like that at that time. 0 6144 Closing Remarks MF: Okay. Well, I want to say for the day, David, thank you so much. It’s so wonderful to hear your stories today. I’m so grateful that you took the time, and I can’t wait for our next interview. 
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 ; DM: We’ll get a date together and see what’s up, and we can do it again if they don’t mind doing it again. (laughs) 0 MovingImage David Moyer recounts his early years, sexuality, and his experiences with gay community in Allentown and Atlantic City. MARY FOLTZ: My name is Mary Foltz, and I'm here with David Moyer to talk about his life and experiences in LGBT organizations in the Lehigh Valley as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. Our project has funding from ACLS this semester, and David and I are meeting at Muhlenberg College in the Rare Books room. The date today is January 21, 2022. So, David, thank you so much for being here with me today, and to start, I just have a few quick questions. Could you please state your full name and spell it for me? DAVID MOYER: Okay. David Kenneth Moyer, D-A-V-I-D, K-E-N-N-E-T-H, M-O-Y-E-R. MF: Thank you very much, and will you please share your birthday? DM: Ah, oh. (laughter) April 23, 1943, I'm very old. MF: Thank you for sharing that. Before we started this interview, you signed a consent form, but I just want to review briefly some questions on that form. Do you consent to this interview today? DM: I do. MF: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made public available online? DM: I do. MF: Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats including films, articles on our website, conference presentations? DM: I do. MF: And do you understand that you'll have 30 days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review the interview, to identify parts that you might want to delete, or to withdraw the interview from the project? DM: I do. MF: Fabulous, all right, so let's go ahead and get started, and, David, I thought I could -- we could begin by you may be sharing a little about your childhood. DM: Well, with all these I dos, I feel like we're married now, so. (laughter) Well, thank you for asking me to do this. It's my pleasure, and anything that I can help, I'm more than willing to do that. I don't know where to start because there's so much, so here we go. Well, it was a cold and stormy night -- no, that's not right. MF: (laughs) DM: In the beginning, it was the -- no, that's not right either, uh-uh, anyway, my little humor there just to get me going. Like I mentioned, my name is David Moyer, I am 78 years old. I was born in the Allentown Hospital at 17th and Chew, which is now Leigh Valley Health Network -- something or other, I don't know, they keep changing their names. My mother's name was [Alma?], my father's name was Kenneth. We lived in -- originally in Fullerton on Quarry Street -- Fullerton is now part of Whitehall -- and we were there until I was approximately four years of age when we moved into Allentown. Prior -- well [Linnie?] also. Other than the names there, I need to give you a little disclaimer here. For a lot of things that I'm going to be saying with names, the names may or may not be the real names of the people that I'm talking about, and some of the things are not meant to have a shock value, but some of the things that I'm going to say are pretty out there. So, I just want to get that out there in front so that there's nothing, yeah, because I have nothing to hide. But anyway, my first encounter with another male, I was approximately the age of four. I don't remember a thing -- anything up till four. But I had a friend Bobby who lived in the neighborhood, and he and I would play a lot together, but for some reason one day, we had built a fort over the back of our sofa at the house, and one thing led to another, we had our pants down, and we were looking. And I thought this is interesting, and he thought it was interesting because our penises looked different. One of us was circumcised, one of us was not, and we thought that was interesting, so we didn't know. But all we did was just touch each other, and we would get erect, and I'd think, this is really cool without knowing what that all meant. And that went on for about six months or so and then we moved from Fullerton into Allentown into a single house. We were in a single house in Fullerton, but we moved into another single house, which is four stories. And I was sad to leave because I didn't know if I was going to see Bobby again, and I didn't know what to expect moving into a new neighborhood with the people. I knew that I liked people, that like -- I was an out-there kid. It wasn't long and then I met -- made some friends with the neighbors. There was a lot of boys in the neighborhood, and there were some girls. My best friend then, the first person I met back then was Nick and then he had a brother Danny who was younger, and then there was my friend Jim, and Jim had two older brothers and a sister. There was Tony and Gene, they were brothers, and they had a sister Grace. Now, Nicholas and Danny were Irish, Jim, his two brothers and his sister was -- were Irish, Tony and Gene and his -- and their sister Grace were Italian. And then there was another neighbor that lived next door to us, they ran the corner luncheonette, [Herb's?] Luncheonette, and they had a daughter Lucille, and they were Italian. My first encounter with anyone sexually was with Nicholas, and we would do pretty much the same thing that Bobby and I did. And then later on, I kind of got involved with Gene, the Italian, and he was the older, older one, and he was the first one that I actually performed oral sex on. Now I was about eight or nine I'd say at the time, and I thought, wow, this is great, I like this, but I never said anything to anybody about it, and I just -- we always kept this to ourselves. But then Gene did say to me, he says, "Don't you dare say anything to anybody." I says, "No, why would I? I want to keep this all to myself, I'm not going to share this." So was it was Gene and Nick were the two that I would become involved with over the years. I never did anything with the Gene's brother, I never did anything with my other friend Jim, although we had talked about it. We were the only non-Catholic family in the neighborhood, everybody else was Catholics, so everybody went to Sacred Heart down in Center City there. And my first inkling about something not being as it should be was Jim had called the priest at the church and wanted to know about what masturbation was, and if it was a sin or not and any other type of thing, and then of course the priest says, "It's a mortal sin, you're going to go to hell if you do these things." So that scared me, and then of course, Jim and I never did anything. So I guess later on, as the years were going up, I was going to school, and I would spend weekends with my grandparents up in Catasauqua, they live in Catasauqua. My grandmother's name was Esta, E-S-T-A, and my grandfather's name was Paul, and my grandmother had a brother's whose name was Abner, and he was -- he had been in the Army, but he had been discharged, he had done his 20 years, so he was home. He took a liking to me, and I always thought that he was really nice and whatever. And I had spent a lot of time out there especially in the summer months when school wasn't in, so I had a lot of free time. But my grandparents always liked to throw Friday night or Saturday night parties, and they had done that one weekend. Everything was done, cleaned up, and everybody was in bed. My grandparents were in their room, and my uncle Abner was in his room, and I was in my room, and something just said to me, you need to go over and talk to your uncle. So I was very quiet, I crept over to his bedroom and crawled in bed with him, and he was -- he gets a little startled somewhat. And he put his arm around me, I had my hand in his chest and just listening to him breathe, and I was getting excited, and my hand just started to move from his chest down to his crotch. I was, I guess, amazed that when I got down there, he was already erect. And I started massaging him, and he was moaning and groaning, and he started playing with my penis and put his finger around my anus. And the more I'm massaging him, the more he's groaning, and I went down on him, and then all of a sudden, this liquid came out -- I wasn't sure what it was -- and then he kind of sighed. And I felt the urge to ejaculate, but of course I couldn't because I was still too young, but I had felt that. So that was my really first experience with an adult, and it was my uncle. And I know a lot of people are going to look at this and say that he should have been arrested or it was child abuse or whatever, and for me, I didn't see that at all because it wasn't him that initiated this, it was me that initiated it. And they were going to say, well, he should've known better anyway, but I knew -- and my response to those people is that you love who you love, and I loved him. He was probably my first love, I knew that he loved me. And then he got rushed to the hospital with appendicitis, and complications had set in, and he developed a condition called peritonitis, and that killed him, and he was 49 years old, and I was devastated. I thought my world had ended because the person I loved has now died, and I never got over that. Still to this day, I miss him, and I still love him, I mean I always will. So that was my first experience with an adult, and again a family member, but he was just so handsome. He had been an Army cook. I don't know where he worked when he was discharged, but I know that when he cooked, he would cook for an Army. There was only four or five of us eating, but there was always so much food. And he was just so handsome, especially when was in his uniform, it was just -- I have -- I really only have one picture of him in his uniform with three other of his people that he was in the Army with. So that's my first part. I knew I was different, but I didn't know what as yet. So now, I'm getting into my teen years, and I had a job as a newspaper delivery boy when they used to deliver newspapers -- well they still do, but not the way that they used to. Every summer if you were a newspaper boy, you were able to get a free week at a boys' camp up in Carbon County at -- it was called Camp Greenwood, and it was on Greenwood Lake, which was -- right next to Lake Hauto. The first two years I went up as a camper, and it was fun because it was all boys. Boys camp was eight weeks' long and then the first -- last two weeks in August was girls. The girls always got the short end of the stick because it's just the way it was then -- still is now when you look at things, how things are going. But it was quite interesting. I had some activity but not a whole lot until I was brought in as a counselor, and I was given a cabin with seven other kids, and I was the leader for that group. But anyway, we would go up for two weeks prior to the camp opening up so that we could go and get the camp ready. So that when it was time for the campers to come in, everything was set. They'd come in, they were assigned cabins, so we had -- the upper cabins where the older kids were my age and then the lower cabins were where the littler kids were. I think they were under 10, 10 and under. Everybody else was up in my area. There were six upper cabins and six lower cabins. The lower cabins were two cabins and then in this -- there was a center section, and that's where the counselors were. So there was three sets of those two of two, then the upper cabins were all single cabins, and they were all double-bunk beds. You got to know who you were going to be able to have fun with and who you just wanted to let go. So, there were times where we would get together, and we would just masturbate together or touch each other. There was no oral going on, there should've been, but there wasn't. And that went on for about four more years. I started getting up there when I was in late junior high school into high school year. Like I said, I was a camper for two years, and I think it was three or four years I was on staff. The way that I got on staff is because I had gone to the Red Cross and got my swimming certificate as an instructor and how to do a canoe, so I was hired for the waterfront staff. And we went down in the morning, and we would brush our teeth and wash our face in the lake because there was nothing -- you couldn't shower, there was no showers for any of us up there. And then in the evening, you went down to the lake. You had your morning thing and then you would go down again after breakfast and have swimming lessons because you could get your swimming lessons when you learn how to swim. And then you went back again later in the afternoon for an afternoon swim and fun time and then you went back down again, and that's where you took a bath in the lake. That's how we did it back then because there were no showers. But like I said, that went on up until I think the -- my last year was the year after I graduated, and I was -- by that time, I was working. When I graduated from high school, I was working at the Allentown State Hospital. Of course, then, I went into the military, but that's coming later on down the road here. So, the activity was going on for -- every time we went to camp, and there was two guys. When I would go up for the pre-opening season, I would stay either with my friend Art and they -- he lived in Lansford, I never did anything with him. And then his friend Bob who lived in Coaldale, Bob and I would hit, we'd connect, and we would have sex every chance we got. I think from there, I was having -- still having sex with Gene and Nick, and I was also having sex with -- even though I was a newspaper boy and had my own route, we had to have a newspaper boy deliver our newspaper -- go figure why was, but that's how it was -- and that was Frankie. And Frankie and I would get together, and that went on for a while until even after graduation. There was another guy that I went to school with, his name was Jim, and Jim lived in this south side of Allentown, but I would go down because -- and his parents worked, but he had younger brothers. So, I would go down there sometimes on a Friday night during school and stay with him while he was watching his brothers. And then once his brothers were tucked in and were asleep, he and I would get together and have sex. So, I was very, very promiscuous at an early age. From there, I was -- and I started working at the state hospital after I graduated from high school. My mother worked there, she was an LPN, and I got a job there as an orderly, and I was there for -- from '61 until '65 and then I had to go into the military my -- Navy, Navy reserve part. There was a guy that was our -- we had -- on the ward that I worked on, I worked in the male violent ward, but we had a charge nurse, and we had a charge attendant, and the charge attendant's name was Bruce and then there was Jim. Bruce and I were going up to Tamaqua to do something at night. I thought we were going to look for something, I'm not exactly sure what it was, and on the way back, he said, "Let's get some beer," and so we got some beer and parked somewhere, and one thing led to another, and he and I had sex. Bruce was married, as was Jim, and Jim lived in Bethlehem, Bruce lived in Allentown, and there were nights where I would go over to Jim's house. And usually, his wife was up for a while when I would get there because I would see her, but their son was already in bed, who I've never seen, I've never seen his son. And then Jim just started putting the make on me and, oh, okay, let's do this. So that went on for the whole time that I worked there. There was a neighbor in Allentown who was married and really good-looking, and he lived in that apartment complex right across the street, he, his wife and his kid. And he asked me to help him with something down in the basement, which is what I did, and again, one thing led to another, and I said, "You want me to go down on you?" and he said, "Sure," so I seduced the neighbor. I did a lot of seduction in my days. And then I get into the military. Now -- oh, before I go back to the military, all these years from early on to where I was then, it's only been sex with men or boys. I never had sex with a woman, so I was still a virgin, yet. There was a woman that worked at the state hospital, her name was Darlene, and she was a very attractive blonde, young, and was married. And she had asked me, she said she wanted to speak to me, but she wouldn't talk to me there, and did I know a place that was more private that we could go and talk to, and I said, "Yeah.". And so we made arrangements to meet, and I was kind of hesitant, but why not? So, I went to this parking place where I used to go to park with the guys. It was very secluded, and there was never anybody there. And we started talking, and again, one thing led to another, and before you knew it, we're naked, and I was just so excited that something's going to happen with a woman that I was so excited that I had a premature ejaculation. And I thought to myself, ah, this is not the way I want my first encounter with a woman to go. So, we never really did anything, I never penetrated her, let's put it that way, cleaned up and took her back. And then I found out -- this is just before I had gone into the Navy -- that her husband had found out that she was doing something with other people. And if he ever found out who it was, they were dead, and I thought, okay. Like this time now, I'm in the military, I'm gone. I went to boot camp in Philadelphia when they had a boot camp there for the reserves, and nothing happened at boot camp. I was too scared for one thing but not -- but just that what have I gotten myself into? Because I know I didn't want to go into the -- I didn't really go into the Army, and I knew that I wasn't going to be Marine Corps material, and I really didn't know anything about the air force, so I thought I had -- even though I had an uncle who was -- my uncle Abner was in the Army, I had -- my cousin Jimmy was a Navy man, and he looked really good in uniform, but he had nothing there. I had gone for my Army physical ; this is in 1962 because I was already graduated from high school, I was working up to Wilkes-Barre and we went through the whole thing, the written test, you have to do an exam, and then you always a full physical. So, I passed the physical, and I failed the written test. I thought, oh, I'm safe, I'm not going to have to go anywhere. So I said to the person, the recruiter, I said, "Well, I guess that's it," and he says, "Oh, no," he says, "just because you fail the test doesn't mean that -- they'll retest you again and then they'll put you where they want to put you." And I thought, oh, no, I don't really want to go in the Army, and that's when I decided to go in -- well, I came back and I thought, okay, I'm going to join the Navy. Well, we're in the height of Vietnam here, so the quotas for the Navy were full, and like I said, I knew I wasn't Marine Corps material. Air force was -- quota was full, and I know didn't want to go into the Army, I know I didn't want to do that, so somebody said, "Well, why don't you try the Navy reserve?" And at that time, the Navy reserve was over on Vultee and Lehigh Street ; now there's a CVS there. So I went, walked in, and I said what the circumstances were and they says, "Yeah," they says, "there's openings here. We can test you now and then if then if you pass the test, we can bring you back in the evening, get your physical exam, and we can swear you in that same night." This is all done in Tuesday. So I took the exam, I scored like 30 points higher than what I had in the other one. So I went back that night, I got my physical exam, and I was sworn in, and that was either September or October of 1963. And I stayed there for 30 years, so I did, but most the time was in the reserves, but then I had several years of active duty, I retired in 1993. I had gone to boot camp, which I mentioned earlier, come back, and did some time at the reserve center, and then I went for two weeks -- it's actually three weeks, and I was still working at the state hospital. My first ship that I went on was the sub tender in Key West, the USS Bushnell, and I went down with our commanding officer and two other guys and so there's four of us, we all took turns driving down and driving back, and I still hadn't -- I still was not given a billet, what am I going to do? Well, I was an orderly at the state hospital, so there's medical there, and fortunately when I was -- did the written test, I had qualified to be a yeoman. A yeoman really is a clerk, clerk duties ; I thought, I don't want to do paperwork and that stuff. One of the lieutenants that was in the unit was a -- not physical therapist -- was a therapist at the hospital, and I used to talk to him. I said, "Is there any way that I can become a corpsman?" because that's really what I wanted to do. And they said, "Well, you're --" I didn't have enough points to qualify, point-wise, but he did a letter of recommendation as did the commanding officer, and they accepted that. So, I get into my A school, which was in a Great Lakes at the station there. So, in '65, I go to Great Lakes for my A school and still not having any sex with anybody. I met Alan, and he and I became good friends, and we went into Chicago one Sunday, we had gotten a room or it was Saturday. Saturday, went into Chicago, got a room for the weekend, and bingo, we had -- he's the first person I had sex with, and that went on while we were in our A school, then you graduate from A school and you're going to go somewhere. So, he got stationed at the Naval Hospital in St. Albans in New York, and I get stationed at the naval hospital in Philadelphia, so there was still a distance there. And I was in Philly for -- I was there for about six months or so and then I had gotten orders to go to Gulfport, Mississippi, to the CBs, that's the construction unit of the Navy. But while I was in Philadelphia, there were several gay bars that I would go to. I didn't go with anybody else because nobody knew. Back then if you knew, you were out. If somebody outed you, and you were court-martialed, you were out, and you lost everything, so I was secretive about my sexual activity. But there were a couple of bars that we'd go to. There was the Allegro, there was the Zebra, there was the bus -- Bike Stop, there was a lot of bars there. There still are in Philly, but I don't go to Philly. So, I now go to Gulfport. Now, there was a guy in my A school in Great Lakes, and his name was David, the same as mine, and he and I were vying for the same guy that I wound up getting, so we were kind of like at odds with each other while we were there. I don't know where David went. Like I said, I went to Philadelphia, and Ron went to St. Albans. So, I get down to Gulfport, Mississippi, and I'm checking in, and the first person that meets me is David, and I'm thinking, oh, no, this is not going to go well because we didn't like each other. Well, as it turned out, we became best friends -- again, David and I never did anything -- we said, "Hey, it's all water over the dam, this is a brand-new start, okay." I had a friend that lived in Quakertown who had moved to New Orleans, Louisiana. He was gay, and his daughter he was gay, and she opened up a -- what she called a Christmas store. All year-round it was Christmas stuff like ornaments and knickknacks and all that that crap that we have lying around all over the place. Anyway, so I knew that he was down there, and I contacted him, and I said, "Hey, I'm at Gulfport at the base, what's going on in New Orleans?" because I had never been there, and he says, "Come on down." So, I went down, and I stayed with him, and he had a couple of roommates, again nothing with them, and they were older than I was. He showed me around to the different bars and, oh my God, it was like whole new world, yes it was just -- you had sex everywhere. You could go to a bar and grab a drink whether it was a bottle of beer, or it was a margarita or whatever, and you could leave with it and go to another bar, you could drink on the streets in there. I guess that's how New Orleans was and still is to my knowledge. I haven't been there in -- for a very long time, but... So, I did my tour. My unit went, did a tour in Vietnam for a year, so my... I had two guys that were in my unit that I was hooking up with, and David had his own guys that he was with and so we never -- we stayed friends that way. There was Benny, and he was a good old southern boy, and there was Joe, and he was a badass, and he was from Pittsburgh. I mean they were both secretive about what was going on, but Joe was really -- he was more of a risk taker, and we almost got caught once or twice, but it was all smoothed out. But Benny was the one that I really, really liked. My time with the unit was almost up, and I was going to be shipped back home. The unit still had another I think, like two months or so before the whole unit was coming back. I said to Benny, I says, "I really like you, and I'd like to stay in." He says, "I like you too, but when I get home, I'm going to get married, I'm going to have a family, and this is all going to be behind me." He says, "This is -- it was good while we were here, and we had fun," and he says, "I love the way you work my body and --" which was -- made me happy but. So, I said, "Okay," so home I came, got off active duty, went back into the reserves. I stayed with the CB unit just about my entire 30 years with the exception of my A school and my time in Philadelphia, the naval hospital, and a year and a half with all the medical MASH unit, everything was with the CBs. And by that time, we had had -- Don't Ask, Don't Tell was in place, so a lot of the guys knew, suspected that I was gay, but nothing was ever discussed. I know, I know that when I was in Vietnam, the group of us that were gay hung around together, and everybody knew that we were gay, the commanding officer knew that we were gay. But because the job that we did was important, we didn't flaunt our sexuality, and as long as we did what we were there to do, who cares what you are. I mean we had one guy, and he was the commanding officer's personal driver, so whenever he had this -- he had to go somewhere off the base, he was the one. He was the only one that was discharged -- not for being gay. He had contracted sexually transmitted disease six times while he was in country. Two is it, and he overlooked that, they said, "That's it, you're out." So he was the only one that was discharged for -- and not even being gay but for having that many sexual transmitted diseases in the time that we were there, so... But in the time that I was in country, you were given a week of what's called R& ; R, rest and recreation, so I decided to go to Japan for my R& ; R. Me and my other friend, we went together, we shared a room, and he was gay also, but we didn't do anything, and he was from Connecticut. We went to this bar, a bunch of us, and all of a sudden, all these women are lined up behind us in the bar, and they all come over to each one of us that was there and picked us up. They were hookers, so okay, that wasn't my plan, but I went home with this Japanese woman, I believe her name was Judith, she had an American name, Judith, spoke very good English and also very good Japanese. But I thought, okay, one night ; I was with her for five days. She hid my clothing ; I was naked the whole time I was there. We had so much sex, I was -- I hate saying it, but I was sore, I was sore, (laughs) and I know I needed to get back because I had to get back to my unit. Fortunately, she had to go out and do -- meet somebody or something and so I was able to retrieve my clothing, got myself dressed, and got the hell out of there, and I got back to the hotel that I paid for that I didn't have any time to spend there, so... The other crazy thing about that incident is also that her pimp lived in the same apartment building but on a different floor, and he wanted... Of course I paid her yen or however much it was, and he wanted to learn how to play poker. I know some poker but not very good at it, so I'm teaching what I know, and of course, I'm winning, so I got all my money back. (laughs) That's just a side story for that, so... So that was my real first, full sexual encounter with a woman. It was good, I'm not going to say it wasn't, it was good, it was different, but it was good. So now I'm back in country, and we're out on patrol, and this little village that we were going to, some of the guys that were within patrol wanted to get laid. So they find a whole bunch of willing women and says, "Come on, Doc, come on Doc, get in this, get in this too," so I went, "ah, I really don't want to." But I did get this one girl -- woman, a Vietnamese woman, and we went into her hut, and I gave her some money, and I says, "I don't want to have sex," so she was okay with that. We just laid there, we cuddled with each other and talked, and I think she was fine with that -- we didn't do anything -- and I was definitely fine with that. So that was my sexual encounters there in country and in there. So, I come back, and now, the wild days are starting, and I am back at the state hospital and then these two women came in from Northampton County Community College and did an in-service for the orderlies, because we were considered orderlies, about a new program that were starting up with the college of nursing program, a two-year nursing, and was anybody interested. So I thought, why not? I went to nursing school. That was from '68 to '70. I was the first male to graduate from the nursing program, and I got a job at St. Luke's. I was the first male nurse to work in labor and delivery. I was there for 65 deliveries, three sets of twins, and a set of triplets. One of my best friends who happens to be a lesbian, her name is Froggy, and then she would not care if I'm using her name or not, she's still in the area here. She wanted to have a baby, and she got pregnant, and I was there to help deliver her daughter [Tanya?], and Tanya is a grandmother, which means that Froggy is a great-grandmother. This could be another story maybe for another time, unless we have time during this time, but how I met Froggy, that's another interesting story, which I may get to because it happened in Atlantic City, which I haven't even gotten to yet, so... And that's where this is taking me now. The early days for me of gay life really occurred after I had come out. So, my coming-out story is -- I graduated from William Allen High School in 1961. My best friend there was Tommy, and Tommy is -- unfortunately, he is dead, and there was a tragic story for that too, that's another story. But he and I would eat lunch every day together, it didn't matter if it was snowing out or raining out, we would sit on [Mrs. Souter's?] porch at 17th and Linden Street. The place is still there, but I think she's long gone. Anyway, so we graduate, I go to work at the state hospital, Tommy goes to work for what was then the Globe-Times newspaper in Bethlehem. And he calls me up, and says, he and a friend Eddie were at this bar in New York, and they thought that I would like it and would like to go sometime. I said, "Yeah, sure." So, we made arrangements, they picked me up after work, we went up to New York City, we get out into the Village. The name of the bar was the Cherry Lane, it was in an alley. The place is no more, also another tragic thing there, that place burned down. But you went into the bar, and it was very dimly lit, a long bar, a lot of people, mostly men, in fact I think it was all men, but it's just not clicking with at the time. And I'm hearing the music and -- but I don't see a jukebox anywhere around. So, there was a big, dark velvet curtain that was alongside of the bar, and if you paid two dollars more, you could go behind the curtain, and you could dance. So, we paid our two dollars, we'd go back, people are dancing, again the guys. Still, it's not resonating with me. Duh, I'm still naïve, and we're having a good time. We're dancing together, guys are dancing with guys, guys are dancing by themselves, just really good. So, we leave, and on our way home, Tommy says to me, "Well, how'd you like the bar?" I said, "Oh," I said, "it was really fun," I said, "we should come back again." He says, "You know it was a gay bar," and I thought, okay, what did they know about me? Did somebody say something, or did I say something or whatever, I had no idea, I said, "Oh, okay." So back in Allentown, we used to get together Fridays and Saturday nights, right, Eddie, me, and Tommy. Sometimes Tommy would drive, sometimes Eddie would drive, sometimes I would drive depending, whatever it was. And we would just be cruising down Hamilton Street and up and around the streets, just doing the loop because that time Hamilton Street. -- up and around the streets just doing the loop because at the time Hamilton Street was both ways as were all the other side streets and that. So we had parked the car, and we were walking at Ninth and Hamilton where Hess is, Hess Brothers used to be. And they had these huge windows -- display windows and, oh, the mannequins in there, and it was always whatever time or the season it was, that's what they were dressed up for. So we're looking at the windows, and we're posing like the mannequins in there, doing goofy stuff, and across the street was this restaurant, it was called Rube's. It was the only Chinese restaurant in town, and it was owned by a Jewish man, (laughs) best Chinese you'd get anywhere other than Chinatown. And these two women were over there in front of the place, and they're yelling at us, "Hey, what are you guys doing?" and we said, "Oh, no, stuff, just fooling around." They said, "Hey, you want to come into the bar?" and we said, "No, we're not 21 yet." And that was the reason why we went to New York because you could drink at 18, so we were old enough to drink in New York but not in Pennsylvania. And we said, "No, no," we said, "we're not 21," they said, "Ah, don't worry, we can get you in, not a problem." So, in we go, and they introduce us to all of their friends, and all of their friends were gay, and we thought, oh, this is good. And Beverly said, "Well, welcome to Rube's, it's the gayest spot in town," and it was the gayest spot in town because at nine o'clock every night when Hess is closed, everybody congregated in Rube's, and a lot of the male workers were gay, and that was the only place they could go, so that's how it was. So, I had met my friend, Ron -- I'm not sure if Ron's alive or not yet -- another stunning guy, and I went home with him, and oh -- well, anyway. But not that night, that was another time. So, we leave the bar, I go home, I'm living -- at this time, I'm living with my grandparents because I'm kind of estranged from my mother. We had an outing, and I didn't want to -- even though we still worked at the same place, I didn't see her, she really didn't see me. I go home, I'd go into my bedroom, I took all my clothing off, I stepped in front of the full-length mirror, and I said, "Welcome, you're gay," and I never looked back. It's who I am today, so I accepted the fact that that's who -- I knew there was a reason why I like boys, men, it's who I like, yeah. That's my outing of how I -- two straight women, but three of us out. I'm still friends with Eddie ; Eddie is still alive, Eddie is a little older than I am, and he lives in Quakertown with two other older friends of mine that are friends of his. I see them every once a while, but I get emails every once in a while, from Eddie. So now, we have... I'm out of the military, and this is before or -- this is just prior to me going into nursing school. Let me jump back a little bit. There was a bar on Six Street -- on Sixth Street in Allentown between Hamilton and Linden, it was called The 23 Bar. A lot of people went there, but it was mostly women and mostly lesbians then. Three of the women that I worked with at the hospital were lesbians. One, her name was [Ronnie?], again I don't know if she's alive or now, she -- if she's alive, she's got to be in her eighties or nineties. The first time I seen Ronnie at the hospital, I thought Ronnie was a guy. Oh, my God, I mean I looked at this person, and I immediately got aroused. I thought, oh, wow, this guy is so freaking good-looking, so... [Gina?], who was the other lesbian, now her sister also worked at the hospital, and she was a nurse, but Gina was an orderly, and she said, "Let's go to the -- let's go to The 23 after work." So we went to The 23, and who's in there but Ronnie. I said to Gina, I says, "Oh, my God, who is that guy? He is so good-looking." And she said, "David, he's a lesbian," I says, "No," I was so brought down, but anyway. So that was that bar and then you had Rube's where the guys went. Now, I'm out of the military, and prior to starting nursing school, there was a new bar that was opening up, and it was called The Rendezvous, which was The 23 Bar, and I think I had mentioned that you before. And [Larry John?] who is deceased, he and a friend of him who was a German and spoke very little English, opened up this bar because we needed something more than Rube's, right? So, he opened up this -- the bar, and he asked me because he knew I knew how to dance and stuff like that. He says, "I want to have some entertainment in here, and I'd like to have like a go-go boy-type thing to bring in patrons," so he said, "Are you interested?," and I said, "Yeah, yeah." The pay wasn't great, but tips were good. And I got to tell you that he had been involved with -- one, two, three, four -- four different bars, okay. Every bar that he had, that he had me work at, he had sex with me on the bar after the place closed, and so... So I said, "Yeah," so I was the go-go boy, and I was the first go-go boy in Allentown when that stuff was starting to get up because you had the go-go girl dancers and all this other, but you didn't have guys doing that stuff. And then if there was guys, they were in the straight bars where a lot of the women would go, almost like the Chippendale type thing, but I wasn't stripping. So, he had that bar for a while and then the co-owner, the German guy decided that he didn't want to be any part of this, so he got out of the business. So somehow, Larry gets hooked up with the owners of what was then the LeHiKhai, and that was on Hamilton Street between Eighth and Ninth -- no, Ninth and 10th, Ninth and 10th, and he asked me to go-go up there, which is what I did. Now the pay was increasing a little more, and the tips were really good too, and then he again had sex with me there after it closed. And then now around '69 or so is when you had the Stonewall riots in New York. So he decided that he wanted to do something to keep the spark alive of the bar, so he -- and now he has a partner, Frank, and they open up the Stonewall on 10th Street, the Moose Lodge, that's what it was, the Moose Lodge, four floors. The top floor was apartments, the... There was the bar, and then there was the Moose Lounge, and then above that was the apartments. So you had the basement, he converted -- the basement had a bowling alley in it, and he converted that into a bar. He wanted it to be like a leather-type bar for bikers and that stuff. Well, it lasted for maybe a year and a half, two years, and that fizzled out. Then you had the regular bar where you would come in, then the second floor was the Moose Lounge with a big bar and then a dining area because they used to do breakfast after the bar closed. And then you would go-go up, and there was a go-go -- you could go-go upstairs or you could go-go on the main floor, either in the corner of the bar or they had -- they also had a stage where the deejay was, and money was really good. Of course, the bar closes, Larry has sex with me there. I lose touch with Larry after X amount of years, and so let me revert back. So from that time prior to all of that, we now have Atlantic City. Atlantic City was exciting ; It was like another version prior to me going to -- well no, I take that back. Atlantic City to me was like the New Orleans of the East Coast, right? The gay life down there was so much fun. Now I had graduated from nursing school, I'm working where I'm working, and I was living with a friend of mine who just passed away four months ago, he was older than me. I lived with him for 10 years, again nothing between the two of us, but I thought of myself as a whore, he was a real whore, let me tell you. He would pick up -- there was a place in Pembroke, it was called the [Rainbow Luncheonette?]. It was a straight place, it was owned by a married couple, an older couple, and they had pinball machines in there, and a lot of young guys would come in there. And we were in there one night, it was him and me, and he -- we called him Mother Vern. He drove only Lincolns, big Lincolns. His parents lived in Freemansburg ; they're gone. And so he would pile in all these kids in his car, and we'd drive down to his parents' house. His parents were in bed, they were very sound sleepers, we'd be entertaining all these guys in the kitchen. Vern would be in the living room with one, he'd finish with that one, and he'd yell, "Next." The next one would go in. He did all 10 guys in one night, I didn't do any of them, I was just -- I was the entertainment. But I said we lived together for 10 years until I moved, and that was in 1980 when I moved from where we lived to the Trailer Court, which is another part but we would go... Now I was no longer working at the hospital, I was working for Olin Corporation in their medical department. And Memorial Day weekend, Fourth of July weekend, and Labor Day weekend were our weekends in Atlantic City. We would go the day before the weekend started, and we would come back the day after the weekend was over, and we would stay at different places down there. Mostly the travel lodges where you had your own kitchen and that little dining area and two beds and a shower and all that good stuff, balcony. We would go down there, and we would get all set up, we get changed around, go out to what was -- the first bar we would go to would be the Lark Inn. The Lark Inn was right on New York Avenue, but it was right off the Boardwalk. It was the first bar if you were coming off of the Boardwalk, and New York would be on the left-hand side. And above the Lark Inn was the Cell Block, that was the leather bar. But you would go in there, and it was just -- it was almost like a peanut bar. They had big things with peanuts, and you put it and you just throw the shells on the floor and that stuff. So, we would go in there, we'd have a drink ; I'd have a beer, he'd have a highball. And then he would go his way, and I would go my way. And there were weekends when we were down there, we didn't see each other at all until it was time to go home because he was after the young ones, okay, and I was the dance queen. I needed to hit the discos and all that good stuff. Also, the Lark Inn was the place to go to for tea dance after the beach. Everybody was -- the place was packed, and they had stadium seating in the back, then they had the dance floor, then you had the bar and the peanuts, and all that other good stuff, so... But that's what we would do. And then I would go either to the M& ; M disco, and I'd be dancing there for -- till maybe 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning, and then I'd leave there and I would go to the Grand Hotel. The Grand Hotel had -- for lack of better words, it was like a porno shop, movie house, and you paid five bucks, you could stay long as you want. You'd go in, and to the left was like a corral where you just stand around and guys will be having sex standing up, somebody would be on their knees, or whatever. And then to the right was like a theater -- seats and then a huge screen. They'd be showing porn 24 hours, it didn't matter, 24 hours. And then to the back, there was lofts, there was three levels of lofts with cushions, and big cushions and pillows. And you could go up, and that's usually -- I went up there, and I'd lay down, and I'd be naked, and guys would come up and just have sex with me or I have sex with them, you could smoke pot. I wasn't introduced to poppers there. I was introduced to poppers with the first black man that I had sex with, and that was in The Drake Hotel. But anyway, so I would be in there for a good 24 hours, didn't eat, didn't do anything, just have sex. I'd come out, and it's daylight, I thought, oh, my God. That didn't happen all the time, but some of the times, we would go -- we'd go to the bars together and then we'd go to dinner. We would take food with us, and we could cook in our area. If you're looking down New York Avenue from the Boardwalk, on the left side was the Lark Inn and the Cell Block. You went down, and there was Ruby's. Now Ruby's was kind of like a drag show bar, and the bartender just happened to be Larry. So he says, "Oh my God," and we're talking and that, and I said to him, I said, "I need to go to the bathroom," he says, "Well, I'll show you where it's at." So he took me back, he had to and I had to, it was like a thing, but then that was that one. And then you went down, further down the street, and you had on the same side, left side, you had the Cameo. Cameo was a hotel, restaurant, disco. They had the original stainless steel dance floor, ah, it was wild, and they had an in-ground pool. It was the only one in the area that had an in-ground pool, and then next to that was the Grand Hotel, which was a hotel, and then the porn shop. On the other side of the street looking down again from the Boardwalk was the Chez Paree. The Chez was three or four stories, and they had a dance floor that would raise up to all three levels, it was pretty cool, and that was the lesbian disco. That's where I met Froggy, okay ; I won't go into that story. And then you go down a little further on the side was the Saratoga. The Saratoga was -- they had the laser beam, the show, and then you went to the Holiday House, which is one of the places that we would stay. It was just a room and then you had a communal bathroom, you didn't have a private bath in that. And then the Rendezvous that was two floors. The downstairs was a big bar with just people just milling around, then you went upstairs, and there's another nice-sized bar, but it was more quiet up there. The music was downstairs ; there was no music upstairs. And then at the end of that block of New York and Atlantic Avenue was [Corn Finds?]. That was the restaurant that was open 24 hours, and they had served the best breakfast, and it was cheap. It was like two bucks for bacon, eggs, and all that, whatever you wanted. Now, if you're next to where Ruby's was on the left side, it was called Snake Alley, and you went that way, and on the right-hand side was Luisa's. Luisa's was a piano bar that was really more for the older crowd, which would be my age now. So if you were young and good-looking and you went in there, your drinks were always free. And then down a little further on the same side as Luisa's was the Frat House. That was a house-type thing for college kids, college guys that were gay that stayed there, and across the street was The Drake Hotel, but it was the back entrance for the M& ; M Disco. You walk in through there, mirror just all over the place, and then you went to the piano bar first, and then if you took a right and went down some steps, then you went into the disco, dance floor area. It wasn't a huge place, but that's where they had the fog machines, so sometimes you couldn't see who you were dancing with, and it really got... But part of that was the hotel itself, The Drake Hotel, and that was a very cruisy area. My first experience with poppers -- and for those who may not know what poppers are, they're something that you inhale, and it gives you an instant high. And it's something that you do on the dance floor to make your dancing more intense, or if you're having sex, to make your orgasm really out there. So, it was the day that we were leaving, but it was earlier, it was early in the afternoon. We usually didn't leave there till about 5:00 or 6:00 at night. And I'm walking through the hall, cruising the halls and this tall, black -- sorry, this tall black man spots me, and he says, "Hey, you, come here," so I thought, okay. So I went into the room with him, and we're having sex. And he knows that I'm getting very close to climax, and he breaks these ampoules because it was -- that's what they were at that time, they were ampoules, and he stuck one on one nose and one at the other, he's not taking it, deep breath, and I went [inhales], and -- I didn't think I was ever going to stop coming, sorry. It was just so intense, and that was the first black man that I had -- ever had sex with, it was great, it was fun. So, then we come home, but -- oh, and then off of Atlantic Avenue in the alley -- I can't remember what the name of the alley was -- was a place called the Brass Rail. That was the true lesbian bar. You couldn't get in there if you were a guy, it was girls only, girls only, so, which is fine, I mean I'm a girl, so. So that was really Atlantic City. There were some other little places here or there that you could go to, but basically, everything was concentrated in that, on New York Avenue -- New York Avenue and Kentucky Avenue. And then that all went down the hill when Trump opened up his casino, so all gay life -- the last bar that closed was -- actually was the Brass Rail, and they only closed maybe two years ago. It's either prior to or right in the first year of COVID it got closed, so there is nothing, nothing there anymore but, uh... Everything then moved to Rehoboth, I mean Rehoboth is nice, but there really isn't anything going on in Rehoboth, hardly anymore, which is sad. So that's the Atlantic City story. I was working at Olin, I worked at Olin from '72 to '87, and we all lost our jobs because the company was sold to somebody else, and they didn't want to keep any of us, so... At the time I was working there, I -- now all these times I was still in the reserves because I didn't retire until '93. I would go to military events, but I always took a woman with me, and then of course, the women that we went with me were lesbians, so, and they were always the -- what we called the lipstick lesbians, the glamorous, all that stuff. Sorry, I don't mean to offend anybody, but that's how it was back then. So one of the women that I worked with at Olin, her name is Donna, and she had a partner who eventually became my wife but... So she would go to these different things, but they got laid off and then they moved from Allentown to Delaware, and then from Delaware they moved to -- back to New York because my ex-wife was originally from New York. Donna is from -- it's either Pottstown or Pottsville ; I always get those two mixed up. Anyway to make a long story short, I am now -- I have now moved out of Mother Vern's house, and I am living in Terre Hill, the trailer park ; I became trailer trash. But the reason I moved there was because I was dating a guy who was the bartender at The Rendezvous in Atlantic City. His name was Don, and I thought this is going to be great, wow, I'm finding somebody, it's going to be good because all these years was just willy-nilly. And it just turned out to be not a good situation, so -- I don't want to get into that. So here I am, I have a trailer that I thought was going to be for the both of us, and now it's just me. January twenty-third, two days from now, I was at -- Froggy's grandmother had died, and I was one of the pallbearers, so I was with her all the afternoon till the early evening. And I said I needed to go because I was going to this Christmas party because at that point, I was starting to pledge for a leather club, and it was the Reading Railmen that were out of Reading, and it was being hosted by a friend of mine, Steve. So, I went home, I get changed around, and I go to Steve's place, and he lived at 16th and Turner in an apartment building. He had the second and third floor, but you had to get his place on the side and you slung. So, I ring the bell, I open up the door, and there's this cute guy standing at the top of the stairs. I didn't think anything, just that he was cute. So, I went up and said hello to him and then I went and put my coat where it had to go and start milling around. I get myself a drink and then I ran into my friend Kevin who I had known for -- since he was a teenager, and he was there with his boyfriend at the time Michael. Kevin had worked at the Hotel Traylor prior to that. I'm not sure where he was working at the time that I met him, he wasn't working there anymore when they had a restaurant there, and Michael worked in Philadelphia somewhere, but anyway. So they introduced me to this guy that was there at the top of the stairs, his name was Will, and I thought, okay. So I talked to him for a little bit and then I went to mill around again. Now there was another guy there, his name was Keith -- no, Kenneth, Kenneth. He was quite drunk, and he was coming through the narrow hallway, and Will was still standing at the same spot as he was, and this guy bumps into him, spills his drink all over Will. So I see this, I said, oh, this poor guy. So I went and I got some towels and some paper towels, I brought it to him and helped pat him down and got rid of that stuff, and I started talking. I got him a fresh drink, because his drink was spilled too, and myself a drink, and we started talking. And I said, "If you're not doing anything, if you want to come home, come home," and he did to the trailer park. That was January 23, 1981, and he never left. When I met him, he was working for what was then the Holiday Inn out on 309 and 78. I'm not sure what it is now, but anyway, he was working as a painter, and he was quite a drinker and quite the druggie. And I had just gotten over -- January seventh, I had gone into the hospital for a hemorrhoid operation, okay, so I had all kinds of drugs in the house that were not helping me. The only thing that was helping me was pot, and I didn't have any pot, but anyway. So he started taking some of the drugs, but anyway, he wiped out my entire drug thing and all the alcohol that I had too, but of course, I was a drinker back then too. So we were there at the trailer from '81 until '84. And my mother had to move from where she was, I'm talking about -- by this time I'm back with -- I'm okay with my mother, we're friends, and all this other good stuff. Because the landlady where she lived had died, and she needed to go somewhere, so I said, "Well, we're looking for house, so we found a house," I said, "you can have the trailer if you want it." So we moved us out into where -- the house that I still have, we moved my mother into the trailer, and the rest was history from there on, but she was there until 1987. Now, my ex-wife prior to her being my wife, we had gone to a couple of military functions, and we had, over the course of those years, intercourse. I guess I was kind of in a bisexual phase, I don't know. So, anyway that being said, December 21, 1987, Will gets a phone call from my mother to wish him a happy birthday, we were having a birthday dinner at the house, and she hung up, and we started eating dinner. We're just about finished dinner and then I got -- I was on the phone with somebody else -- I don't know if it was somebody else -- and I get an interruption from an operator saying you have an emergency phone call from the woman that lived down below, the trailer girl who was friends with my mother. So I talked to her, I said, "What's up?" She says, "There's something wrong with your mother, what should I do?" I said, "Well, call 911, I mean, duh," which she did and I said, "I'll be right out." So we flew out, and by the time I got there, she was gone, but she was the last person that talked to Will on his birthday. And that's still difficult for me because I lost her, and of course, I lost my husband, but... So I didn't know what to do, and I had called my ex-wife and said, "I need help, I've never had to do any of this before." So she came down from New York. She had a job that she could -- she worked for an insurance company, so she was able to do what she needed to do. So she came down, and she was with me for -- getting the arrangements and the lawyer and all that good stuff, the funeral, and she went back on Christmas Eve. We buried my mother on Christmas Eve and then her and Donna were coming down for New Year's Eve, to spend New Year's Eve with us, which is what they did. And Will was a smoker, a cigarette smoker, and had run out cigarettes, so he and Donna went to the store to get cigarettes and some more booze. I had just gotten out of the shower, and Betsy had given me a bottle of Calvin Klein Obsession, which I loved, loved. So I put some on, and I'm still not dressed yet, and she comes over to me and puts her hands under my robe and gets me all excited, and she drops her pants, and we had sex under the Christmas tree. So we got cleaned up just in time for them to come back, and we had New Year's Eve, okay. Mid-January, she calls me, and she says, "I'm late." I said, "Yeah, late for what?" She says, "I'm late." I said, "Oh, you're late?" She said, "Yes." "What do you want to do?" I said. "I don't know" because we had -- the four of us had talked about having kids and a family and who was going to do what. So I said to her, "Well, let's get married," which is what we did. We had a military wedding, a full military wedding at the Chapel at Lakehurst, the naval base. We were only supposed to have a total of a hundred people there, but it wound up that I was there -- it happened that I was there. Our wedding was on our -- a weekend that my drill unit was there, and they all knew that I was getting married, and they all crashed the party, (inaudible) not the wedding but the reception stuff, but anyway, all is -- it was -- all is well. The only thing that I had to pay for was the rings, the marriage license, that was it. Her sister and her brother-in-law paid for the entire wedding, the food, open bar, everything, and the honeymoon, the entire honeymoon crew or the whole wedding party went to Atlantic City for our honeymoon. Betsy and I had the bridal suite for the honeymoon suite and then Donna and Will were going to have the other room. Well, my ex-wife didn't want to have anything to do with the bridal suite ; the deed had already been done. So Will and I had the bridal suite, a big, heart-shaped, bubble the --ah, God, it was so gaudy -- and they had that, so... We met down in the -- at the -- we were -- we sit at the casino, and I can't remember what the name of the casino was, it wasn't Trump's. But my ex-wife and Donna wanted to go gamble -- well, Donna really didn't want to go gambling, but she went to gamble, so they went to gamble, and Will and I went to the bars, so... That was how that happened. MF: We're at 90 minutes if you can believe it, and so this is typically where we'd start to wind down in the interview. I think we have a lot more to talk about, and perhaps we should schedule a second interview. DM: Oh, okay. MF: But I don't want to stop you abruptly. So we've talked about a kind of first, maybe even the half of your life. And before we close the interview today, I'm just wondering if there's anything about what you've shared so far -- and we'll do a second interview, so we'll get into more it -- DM: Okay. MF: -- but if there's anything about what you've shared so far, that you thought, oh, I wish I would've shared this or I missed this story. And I just want to give you the opportunity to -- DM: I need to go back -- MF: -- have something that you feel is really pertinent to what you shared so far? DM: Oh. ANTHONY DALTON: While you're doing that I'm going to switch this card out real quick just in case. MF: Okay. So we'll just -- DM: What we may need to redo is when I -- when I looked at myself in the full-length mirror, I said, "Hello world, I'm gay," that's what I wanted to say, and I don't think I've said that. MF: I love that story so much. And what a powerful coming-out story because of -- it's not in the public way. I mean certainly you were out in a public way at the bars and with your friends and then with Will. But what a personal coming-out story, like to see yourself and this is me. DM: This is me, yeah. I didn't look back and I just -- I'm me, take me as I am. MF: Yeah. DM: Well I didn't get to talk about my first love after my uncle's death, and that would've been Robert. MF: Do you want to share some about Robert now before we close the interview? DM: Yeah, we can, yeah, because I -- yeah, we can do that if we want to. MF: Okay. DM: What I really wanted to talk about also was my first love -- my other first love between my uncle and William, and that was Robert. I met Robert in the bathroom of Arner's Diner, which was in Allentown. The diner is still the diner, but it's not in the spot that it was originally. It's now at the corner of Ninth and Linden, and I think it's the city something or other. But anyway, we had been in Rube's, and after Rube's closed, the only places you'd go to was the diner, otherwise you went home because there was no bookstores or anything like that at that time. So we went to the diner, and I was -- I had gone into the bathroom, and my friend Tony was in with Robert, they were talking, there was nothing going on between them. But he introduced me to Robert because he didn't introduce me to him at the bar at Rube's because it's -- Rube's is where we were all at. And I looked at Robert, and Robert looked at me, and -- now it was just the two of us. His hands went right down my pants, and my hands went down his pants. I thought, oh my God, this is a Marine, and he is so good-looking. So I wound up taking him home because he didn't have a car because he was still in the Marines. We had mad, passionate sex in the back seat of my car in front of his mother's house. (laughs) And we were together for almost seven years and then he had finished his tour and came home and had gone to -- there was a business school in Easton at the time, I can't remember what the name of it, but it was a business school. And he decided this was not the career path that he wanted to go on, he wanted to go back into the military. So he asked me if I would take him down to Washington, DC, because he was going to re-up again, and I said, "You're choosing the Marines over me?" and he said, "Sorry." So I dropped him off, I cried all the way home, went to see some friends, and they were consoling me, and I thought, oh -- I was just so down. I didn't talk to him for a while and then I had heard because then he was -- he went back to Vietnam, and he is the recipient of three Purple Hearts. He should be dead, should've been dead, not that I'm wishing that, but he made it through. We are best friends now, and I remind him all the time, Bobby we've been together 60 years. He has a husband who is Mexican, lives in Palm Springs, so I go out to Palm Springs every year during -- usually the first week of November because it's the last Pride in the United States for the year was in Palm Springs, and I stay with he and his husband. Will and I when we were married, we were married in their living room. He is my best friend, he is going through -- he has prostate cancer and Agent Orange, and he is still going through chemo treatments for over 10 years. He goes every other Monday for chemo. He is the only living member of his clinical trial group that's still alive, and they don't know why he's still alive, so... But I love Robert to death, and he loves me. We talk at least once a week on the phone, and he wants to come back to visit because he has not been to -- he was not able to get back here for his mother's funeral years ago, but he wants to go back for that and go up to New York and do some traveling there but... So I'd just like to leave with that for now. MF: Wonderful. Well, I want to say for the day, David, thank you so much. It's so wonderful to hear your stories today. I'm so grateful that you took the time, and I can't wait for our next interview. Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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David Moyer Part 1, January 21, 2022
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David Moyer recounts his early years, sexuality, and his experiences with gay community in Allentown and Atlantic City.
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LGBT-23
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives.
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives.
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Stories of Lehigh Valley LGBTQ+ Community Members (2022 - )
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Mary Foltz
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David Moyer
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5.4 February 11, 2022 David Moyer Part 2, February 11, 2022 LGBT-24 1:23:25 LVLGBT-2022 Stories of Lehigh Valley LGBTQ+ Community Members (2022 - ) Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository Support for the collection of this interview was provided by the American Council of Learned Societies (ACLS). trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg David Moyer Mary Foltz video/mp4 MoyerDavid_20220211_video_trimmed 1.0:|33(7)|56(15)|73(9)|92(11)|113(16)|132(4)|147(5)|162(8)|185(4)|204(9)|227(5)|248(3)|267(4)|286(2)|307(10)|330(14)|351(10)|374(7)|395(12)|414(11)|431(11)|450(8)|475(13)|490(12)|507(11)|526(10)|547(8)|562(18)|583(11)|600(6)|615(13)|632(7)|651(2)|666(12)|683(10)|700(13)|721(6)|740(13)|761(6)|776(4)|791(17)|810(9)|827(3)|844(3)|863(13)|882(12)|899(6)|920(13)|937(2)|954(10)|971(15)|988(8)|1003(7)|1020(2)|1035(4)|1054(10)|1075(2)|1092(5)|1111(9)|1126(10)|1145(11)|1160(10)|1177(18)|1188(3)|1205(3)|1226(10)|1247(3)|1258(15)|1279(8)|1294(16)|1307(18)|1324(12)|1341(6)|1356(10)|1375(14)|1392(14)|1405(15)|1418(10)|1433(7)|1452(5)|1473(2)|1486(3)|1503(9)|1514(6) 0 https://youtu.be/yzjoiwcuTtk YouTube video English 0 Interview Introductions MF: My name is Mary Foltz, and I’m here with David Moyer to talk about his life and experience in LGBTQ organizations in the Lehigh Valley as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. This year, our project has funding from ACLS, and David and I are meeting at Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College on February 11, 2022. So, David, thank you again for speaking to me today.
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 ; DM: My pleasure. 0 73 First Year of Marriage / Daughter's Birth MF: Great. So this is our second interview, I’m so excited to be back with you today and we ended our last interview with a discussion of your marriage, so I thought we’d start there. Could you tell me a little bit about your marriage and that first year of married life? 
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 ; DM: Oh, sure, yeah. The main reason that we got married was because my former wife was pregnant, and that was a long story I think, which is part -- in the first part. But what I didn’t get to say was we had -- well, we had a military wedding. It was a Lakehurst, New Jersey, and it was the Chapel of the Air on the base. 0 422 Finding a New Job / HIV/AIDS Work with the Allentown Health Department DM: Now, I had started at Olin Corporation in 1972, and they closed in October of 1988, it was just a few months after our daughter was born. And the bad thing about that was the day I lost my full-time job at Olin, I also lost my part-time job as an aerobics instructor and fitness instructor with the Body Factory, and they were located in Whitehall at the time, so I had no income. 
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 ; Well, the only income I had was my reserve time, and that was once a month, so it wasn’t very much. The interesting thing is that one of my aerobic students at that time had worked for the Morning Call, and she was one of two reporters, health reporters for the city. And Rose knew about my medical background, that I was a nurse, and all that so she said, “There’s a position that’s opened up at the -- in the city of Allentown at the health department that you might be good at.” She’s like, “And I don’t know that you might -- ” she says, “I know you’re really good at it,” so she gave me the information of who to go see in that. 0 830 Allentown in the Early HIV/AIDS Crisis DM: Let me take you back to the start of HIV/AIDS, and this may help paint a better picture of what was happening in Allentown back in the day. On June 5th of 1981, the CDC, Center for Disease Control in Atlanta, Georgia, reported a few cases of a rare disease in young, gay men and intravenous drugs users. The symptoms such as Kaposi’s sarcoma and Pneumocystis pneumonia, they’re generally usually seen in older individuals. 
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 ; The pneumonia is typically seen in patients who were static from surgery, so they have to be flat and not moved, and that they would develop this Pneumocystis pneumonia, which is in the lungs. And then the other form with the Kaposi, it’ a form of cancer that is usually seen in elderly, Mediterranean men, now -- and that can be internal or external. What happens is it leaves these -- looks like black and blue marks on the body like the person was beat-up, and those black and blue marks can be either internal or external. 0 1087 Formation of Fighting AIDS Continuously Together (FACT) / HIV/AIDS Counseling & ; Testing at Rainbow Mountain DM: So fast-forward to 19 -- the years 1985, ’86 in Allentown, Pennsylvania. A group of concerned citizens mostly from the Stonewall Bar, Candida’s Bar, and Jeff’s City Line Pub, and the patrons who supported these establishments, these people live and work in Lehigh Valley formed what is known as FACT, Fighting AIDS Continuously Together. 
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 ; They held an event called The FACT Bar Games, which was held in the gay resort in the Poconos at Rainbow Mountain. That was the summer of 1986. This was all due to the AIDS crisis in the Lehigh Valley. I had heard about FACT, but I really didn’t know or participate in any of their fundraising events. 0 1384 Joining the FACT Board DM: So I think it was about 1992, I went to -- I was asked to come to a board meeting, which is what I did, and that time they were meeting at -- in one of the meeting rooms at what was then the Hilton at Ninth and Hamilton, and they had probably 25 people on their board at that time. We’re down to 13 now at present. 
 ; 
 ; So they asked me if I wanted to join the board, and I said, “Sure, why not?” By now, I have lost some people and -- but my first -- first person I had lost even before I got into -- with the city, I was still working at Olin, and a good friend of mine, his name was Chuck, would always go to Atlantic City for the summer. 0 1737 FACT Beginnings and Events DM: Yeah, oh, thank you. Well, FACT, like I said, started -- was really started in 1986 -- ’85–’86 with our -- for the LGBT community because nothing was being done for their friends that were passing from AIDS. So their first events -- first event was this game up in -- a bar game up in -- at Rainbow Mountain in the Poconos. And at that time, we had a lot of bars, so we had the Stonewall Bar, we had Candida’s, we had Jeff’s City Line Pub, we had the Red Star from Reading, we had the Glass Door, we had Blue Bugle up in the Stroudsburg area. 0 2158 Educating through FACT DM:And like I said, the education component, we always have that at an event. Whether we’re doing bingo for Pride, we always have an information table along with condoms and dental dams and lubrication and all that good stuff that -- for safe sex. We’re still promoting safe sex. Even this day and age, we still need to do that. 
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 ; One of things that I had incorporated in was being that I work for the health department, I was able to go more places, and one of the big educational components for me was in the prison. And we were in the prison every Thursday to do education on a different unit because they had 12 different units in the local prison here, and then we would get people to sign up for testing, then we would go in on a Friday with our crew and just do testing. 0 2431 FACT Board Diversity / Assisting People with Contingencies through FACT DM: Another thing that’s -- that -- and I need to say this, is that even though we support -- FACT supports the LGBT community, we are not recognized as an LGBT organization because we have both straight and gay people on our board, and that’s important for people to know. I mean the majority of us are gay but -- well, because we don’t know. 
 ; 
 ; One of the things too is that especially with the contingencies, which I’ll start talking about now, is that the -- what the contingency request is case managers at Lehigh Valley Hospital in St. Luke’s, they both have an HIV/AIDS department, and they have case managers in those departments, and they have clients -- obviously, they have clients. 0 2808 Work with the AIDS Outreach Buddy Program DM: The one major one that I really was involved with was AIDS Outreach, and they were the first organization to do -- and they were the first religious organization to do anything and that was -- they -- that stemmed out of the Episcopal church. And they started down in Easton before they moved to Allentown, and they had what was called the Buddy program. 0 2944 Other Related Organizations in the Area DM: Gilead House, which was on the state hospital grounds of Allentown, they just had gotten started and then they closed down. Berks AIDS Network, which is called BAN, they’re out of Reading, they’ve changed their whole dynamics and I think they’re doing just more than just HIV/AIDS. We used to have a Latino AIDS outreach, which we don’t have anymore. They were located -- they started in Bethlehem, they moved to Allentown. We still have HAO, Hispanic AIDS Organization. I think they’re located down where the old -- where the original Lehigh Valley Chamber of Commerce, it’s at Fifth and Walnut. I’m trying to think if we have any other organizations. 0 3074 Longtime Companion DM: One of the things that I do in my presentations is I always end my talks with one of my favorite movies is, and one of the first Hollywood big movies was called Longtime Companion, and it takes place in New York and primarily like in Fire Island, in that area. And the main character, his name is Willy, and there was a whole group of his friends that always would get together and like people still do. But he was the only one left, all his friends had died, and he’s walking on the beach in Fire Island, and the last line of the movie is, “All I want is a cure and my friends back,” and that’s how I feel. I hate this disease. I’m sorry, but [sighs] it’s tough. 0 3153 Dating Culture / The Damron Book / Gulfport, Mississippi DM: Back in the day, you had to know somebody or know where things were if you were to go and meet somebody or hook up. We don’t have that now. We have -- maybe I shouldn’t say we don’t have that now, we don’t. I’d say that we need it now, but we have the internet. The internet has changed everything for everybody, not just the gay community, but for everybody. You’d go to the bar and hopefully you meet somebody and maybe get lucky and go home. Now you can sit in the comfort of your living room in your pajamas or underwear or naked and cruise somebody on a website and have cybersex, which is safe, but it’s not fun. [laughter] 0 3472 Thoughts on the Future of the LGBT Community DM: I mean we thrived here in the Lehigh Valley, we had all these bars, we had -- the cruising places is still there, but you would have to be careful there because of the police now. It wasn’t like it was back in our days. We would drive around and around, and I’d mentioned this before with my friend Tommy and Eddie, we would drive around for hours just cruising, yeah, not necessarily picking anybody up, but you can do that. You can’t do that because you see the signs, no, no cruising 7:00 to 10:00 pm. on this street or no cruising 6:00 to 9:00 p.m. on this street. 
 ; 
 ; 
 ; So I don’t know where it’s going, I really don’t. I know that for ME as a gay man, I have lived through a lot. I’ve done a lot, there’s still more for me to do. I said when I get into this line of work with HIV that I will never stop, I won’t -- going as long as I can. I don’t want to let my friends down because I promised them that I would do this. 0 3661 First Experience with the AIDS Quilt DM: One story that I really do want to give to you is my first experience with the quilt, and it was here at Muhlenberg College, and that was, I’m going to say ’95 or ’96 when it was here. I’m not exactly sure, I think it was ’95 or ’96. We had all the organization that were still going were involved with that, and there was a training on how to display the quilt because there’s a whole ceremony. 
 ; 
 ; If you haven’t seen it, Google it because it’s something that is really it’s intense. And we had it at the -- it was the Field House here on the campus. We were in the small palestra and they had these huge boxes, there must have been 30 of these boxes if not more with the quilt panels. They come and they’re folded, so they’re telling us, “This is what you need to do. Once you have the panel, to fold the panel down it takes eight people to do it, a section.” So they said, “Go over and get one out of the box,” so we go over and get one out and put it down. And we each have our space where we’re at, and we’re opening it and it’s -- you do it very slowly. 0 3891 FACT’s Relationship to Other AIDS Organizations in the Lehigh Valley MF: I’m wondering about FACT’s relationship to other AIDS organizations?. Because you’re working in two different fields, you’re also part of the Buddy -- the Buddy program, but there was a program out of the Lambda center that I think became AIDS Services. But how are all of those organizations working together or were they not? 
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 ; DM: No, they were, -- 
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 ; MF: working together? 0 4057 Coming out with His Husband DM: I have another story that’s not really AIDS related, but it’s about my husband, about my late husband. And I guess his and my coming out -- we were together for, I’m going to say, seven or eight years, at least seven or eight years if not more. And one of the goods things is that his whole family is just great, absolutely great. But his mother and his older sister -- because his younger sister was living in Florida for like 25 years, and she’s back here now -- but they would go to a lot of the events. 0 4578 Feelings of Safety & ; Security DM: My faith community is by far the best. I have two parishioners who are originally from -- well, [Haley?] has risen from here, but her husband is Filipino, but they lived in California for years and they -- because he has -- he still has family out there, so they go out occasionally. And when Will died, passed away, somebody let them know that he had died, and they called me immediately, and they canceled the rest of their trip and came home just to help support me. Who does that? 
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 ; You hear so many horror stories in the LGBT community, getting kicked out or being spit on or being assaulted or being murdered, I feel -- there’s times where I feel guilty because I haven’t had any of that. I mean I’ve had some looks and some comments but few and far between, not by anybody in my immediate circle. 0 4857 Closing Remarks DM: Oh, I think we’ve covered... I mean I could’ve talked a bit more about my sexual experiences, but I don’t know. [laughs] That’s for the book. I’m grateful to you for wanting to do this. I’m open, I try to be as open as I can. I think we covered -- I really wanted to get in there about my husband and my marriage, which never should’ve happened, but it did. That soured me for a few years because it wasn’t -- it wasn’t me that wanted to end the divorce, it was me that ended the divorce, but it wasn’t me that was at fault. 0 MovingImage David Moyer details his marriage, work in HIV/AIDS healthcare and activism with Fighting AIDS Continuously Together (FACT), and personal relationships. INTERVIEW WITH DAVID MOYER FEBRUARY 11, 2022 MF: My name is Mary Foltz, and I'm here with David Moyer to talk about his life and experience in LGBTQ organizations in the Lehigh Valley as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. This year, our project has funding from ACLS, and David and I are meeting at Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College on February 11, 2022. So, David, thank you again for speaking to me today. DM: My pleasure. MF: We signed a consent form before we began, but I just want to go back through just a few consent questions. Do you consent to this interview today? DM: I do. MF: Do you consent to having this interview transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online? DM: I do. MF: Do you consent to the archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats like films, articles, websites, presentations? DM: I do. MF: And do you understand that you'll have 30 days after I give you the transcript of this interview to identify parts that you want to delete or to withdraw the interview from the project entirely? DM: I do. MF: Great. So this is our second interview, I'm so excited to be back with you today and we ended our last interview with a discussion of your marriage, so I thought we'd start there. Could you tell me a little bit about your marriage and that first year of married life? DM: Oh, sure, yeah. The main reason that we got married was because my former wife was pregnant, and that was a long story I think, which is part -- in the first part. But what I didn't get to say was we had -- well, we had a military wedding. It was a Lakehurst, New Jersey, and it was the Chapel of the Air on the base. It was small, we were only supposed to have a hundred people there -- well we had about a hundred people for the wedding itself, and it was only supposed to a hundred people for the reception, but unfortunately, it also happened to be a weekend that my unit that I was still a part of was drilling that weekend as well. So there were probably about, close to 300 other people there, and they just casually crashed the reception, which was fine, I mean nobody got upset at that. But one of the things too that you don't see in traditional weddings is that my then sister-in-law and brother-in-law, my wife's sister and brother-in-law, they really -- their wedding gift was the wedding. They paid for everything other than the marriage license, the blood test, and the rings. But they also paid for the honeymoon, and the entire wedding party went to Atlantic for the honeymoon. We got down there, Betsy and I were supposed to have the bridal suite, and Will and Donna were going to just have the other room. Betsy could've cared less about the wedding suite, so she said, "The two of you take it, we're fine where we are, we'll do that," sorry for [inaudible]. That's what we did and then we met down in the casino, and I -- there's a lot of things that I know remember. I don't remember the name of the casino that we stayed at. It was not Trump, and it wasn't any -- it was some awful mall one. But anyway, so we went down in their dining area, and we had something to eat, and Betsy wanted to go gamble, so her and Donna went gambling, and Will and I went barhopping because we knew the bars. So that's what we did and then I don't know what time they got back to their room, but Will and I got back later, pretty well lit. We slept in and get up in the morning, met downstairs, checked out, and then we found a diner. We didn't want to have food in the casino area, so we just did that and then we drove back to Lakehurst, and they got in their car and went back up to New York, and we came back to Pennsylvania. So that was the honeymoon adventure. Well often, Will and I would go up to New York because they were living in Yorktown Heights at the time in Upstate New York, and we would go up for the weekend. We spent a couple of times there. I would go up more than Will would because he had to work sometimes on the weekends, and that went on until -- that was March of '88. Our daughter was born April 4th of '88, and she was premature, and she was supposed to have been born in October, I don't remember the time. She was like eight or nine weeks early, she was really a preemie, so she spent several months in the hospital before they'll let her home, well until she reached the right weight. So we would go up on weekends. We didn't go to bars. I don't think I was in any gay bar up in the area where they lived because there weren't any that we knew of. And we didn't need to go to the bars because we would drink at home, and that was it. And that went on for -- the marriage was -- ended in 1996, and that's another story in itself, which I really don't want to get into in here. But in that time frame, I was still working at Olin. Now, I had started at Olin Corporation in 1972, and they closed in October of 1988, it was just a few months after our daughter was born. And the bad thing about that was the day I lost my full-time job at Olin, I also lost my part-time job as an aerobics instructor and fitness instructor with the Body Factory, and they were located in Whitehall at the time, so I had no income. Well, the only income I had was my reserve time, and that was once a month, so it wasn't very much. The interesting thing is that one of my aerobic students at that time had worked for the Morning Call, and she was one of two reporters, health reporters for the city. And Rose knew about my medical background, that I was a nurse, and all that so she said, "There's a position that's opened up at the -- in the city of Allentown at the health department that you might be good at." She's like, "And I don't know that you might -- " she says, "I know you're really good at it," so she gave me the information of who to go see in that. So I walked in, and at that time, the health department was located above the central firehouse on Chew Street between Seventh and Eighth, and they were on the second floor. So I went in, and I spoke to the clerk -- one of the clerks that was there because they had a whole bank of clerks for different departments there. And I said, "I was told that there's a position open in the city that I might be interested in, it was in HIV/AIDS," and they said, "Well, Ann isn't here at the time," -- she was the director, Ann Taylor, not the clothing designer, I know, -- "but she'll be back after lunch." I left, I came back, and I was just coming in to inquire and sat down with Ann and just that brief talk wound up being a three-hour interview, and I said, "I don't have a resume." I had a resume, but I had it for being a fitness instructor because I also had that, and that's really what I wanted to do, I wanted to continue being the aerobic instructor in that because you never -- look at me now, but anyway. So she said, "Well, [Linnie?] if you can get a resume to me by such and such a date, we can consider that." So I had to go home, and at that time, we didn't have the computers, we had the regular typewriters, and I had to go and make a resume, which I took back. And then she said, "Are you available to talk to another person here?" and I said, "Sure," so there was another two-hour discussion. Now, they had already hired one person for the department because they were just starting up their HIV counseling and testing. The health [inaudible] was counseling and testing with all the nurses that were there because they didn't have an HIV/AIDS department at that time. So they had another Hispanic woman, Linda, and they had another person in mind who was also a Hispanic man, and they really wanted somebody who can speak Spanish because of the population. Unfortunately, I don't speak any Spanish -- well I do, but they're all dirty words but that's neither here or there, but I knew how to draw blood. That was the thing that got me in was that I could do that and I had that medical background, so, and we were hired. At that time, we were hired as independent contractors for the city, and the city was union. So I got hired, and I guess about two years into the job, somebody in the union got word that all these people -- because a lot of the people that worked for the health department at that time were considered contract employees, most of them were, and that was a no-no. And the union said that "You either need to make these people employees or you need to get rid of them." And these are all grant-funded programs, and they're not about to lose all this grant money, so they hired us. They grandfathered most of the thing, but they didn't grandfather the time that we had there, so I lost two years of that, so I was a city employee. And prior to that, I knew what was going on with -- I knew that -- I knew about HIV and AIDS, but I didn't know a whole lot of what was going on because we really hadn't started testing yet in the military. And one of the things that really helped me and my coworker Linda is that they actually sent us down to the CDC in Atlanta, Georgia, for our formal training of how to do that -- how to do testing -- counseling and testing, which was excellent. I'm working and I'm doing counseling and testing but not really knowing a whole lot, still learning more about this transmission and all that good stuff because now we can test. So really what I'd like to do before I get further is to go back and give a little history about HIV in the area. And I do apologize, I have this written down, and I really want to get it right, so bear with me if [inaudible] here, so... Let me take you back to the start of HIV/AIDS, and this may help paint a better picture of what was happening in Allentown back in the day. On June 5th of 1981, the CDC, Center for Disease Control in Atlanta, Georgia, reported a few cases of a rare disease in young, gay men and intravenous drugs users. The symptoms such as Kaposi's sarcoma and Pneumocystis pneumonia, they're generally usually seen in older individuals. The pneumonia is typically seen in patients who were static from surgery, so they have to be flat and not moved, and that they would develop this Pneumocystis pneumonia, which is in the lungs. And then the other form with the Kaposi, it' a form of cancer that is usually seen in elderly, Mediterranean men, now -- and that can be internal or external. What happens is it leaves these -- looks like black and blue marks on the body like the person was beat-up, and those black and blue marks can be either internal or external. No one knew how or where it started ; we just knew it was beginning to spread. Everyone was scared, hospitals were starting to see more and more young men with these conditions. There was no definite treatment or medications available. Doctors were not even certain how it was being transmitted, so a lot of quarantine procedures were set into place. Some hospitals were using full-body suits to go into patients' rooms. A protocol of no physical contact with patients was placed -- put into place and -- with big signs on the doors. Food trays and even bed linens and gowns were placed just outside the doors, and the patients, if they were able, had to fend for themselves if they were not bedridden, and a lot of times, the patients were dying, and they were dying alone. No one wanted to go near those people. The first few years of HIV were the worst for everyone. There wasn't a name for it at this time for this condition, as yet a blood test had not been devised, and they were starting to call it HTLV-III, later that was renamed GRID, gay-related infectious disease. And at the time, the gay people were starting to be discriminated against even more. We were the carriers and the cause of this disease. It was God's wrath because we were all bad people, and we deserved what God had placed upon us, all gays and all drug users deserved to die. Organizations were starting to spring up in response to the AIDS crisis, ACT UP, which was the AIDS Coalition to Unleash Power, and the GMHC, Gay Men's Health Crisis Center, and they were located primarily in New York. And they were all working to help find out more about this condition and to help those infected -- and affect -- infected men affected by HIV/AIDS. Because of these organizations and their push to find out more about what was happening to this -- to their community, we now had a test to determine what we were fighting -- a virus, specifically HIV, human immunodeficiency virus. We had our first medication, AZT, we know definitely how this virus is and is not transmitted, and yet, people were still getting infected, people were still dying, and now the virus had crept into the mainstream heterosexual population. Straight women, straight men, and babies were getting infected. We were seeing more progress -- some progress, but we still did not have enough. Our friends were dying, and there was no one there to intervene for them. So fast-forward to 19 -- the years 1985, '86 in Allentown, Pennsylvania. A group of concerned citizens mostly from the Stonewall Bar, Candida's Bar, and Jeff's City Line Pub, and the patrons who supported these establishments, these people live and work in Lehigh Valley formed what is known as FACT, Fighting AIDS Continuously Together. They held an event called The FACT Bar Games, which was held in the gay resort in the Poconos at Rainbow Mountain. That was the summer of 1986. This was all due to the AIDS crisis in the Lehigh Valley. I had heard about FACT, but I really didn't know or participate in any of their fundraising events. So I knew about them, but I didn't participate because I wasn't out-out with that part, but I had friends. And back then, you had a group of friends that you had dinner with, you partied with, you went here and there. Occasionally, you'd go to the bar, but if you were single and didn't have anybody, that's who you leave when you went to the bar, that's when you had the bar scene but... So I knew about it, and now we were testing in the military, and it scared the hell out of me because the first time I got tested, because I was very promiscuous, very promiscuous. To this day, I still don't know how I dodged the bullet, so to speak. I was tested last year just for the sake of getting tested even though I haven't been active in quite a few years. But I know I needed to get more involved, so... There were people that were coming in to the health department for testing who knew about FACT, and they had said that maybe I should go to a meeting or something, an event or I should go to an event, that's what it was. Eighty-six, I think it was the fourth or fifth Summer Games that was up at Rainbow Mountain, so I was invited to come up and have a table -- a display table from the health department and promote it. A lot of gay men didn't want to go to the health department because we were looked at as the health police, still are. It's gotten better, but I think one of the things that helped is that they had a gay man working in the health department doing this that they could trust. And I think that really helped at least get to where that we, hey, there's somebody there that you can go to, you could ask for, and you could feel comfortable with. So I decided that we need to do testing up at the Summer games. It's a safe place, everybody's -- there is an LGBT part of the community, and what a better place to do this, so I started doing testing up there. The games always started at noon and always ended at 6:00, and that first year that I had tested, I was still testing at ten o'clock at night, and back then, it still took two weeks for test results. Now we're up in Rainbow Mountain, up in Carbon County or Monroe County, I'm not sure where -- yeah, Monroe County but you had to come back to Allentown to get your test results, so, which is what they did. We tested up there and like the following week I said, "If we're going to do this, I need help." I said, "We need more than just me doing the counseling and testing," and I said, "We really need to have somebody that's just going to be able to draw blood," so that's what we did. So we started just having a phlebotomist full time with us even though we could all draw blood, which just makes it so much easier when you have that amount of people that you can just keep testing and educating and doing that stuff. So I think it was about 1992, I went to -- I was asked to come to a board meeting, which is what I did, and that time they were meeting at -- in one of the meeting rooms at what was then the Hilton at Ninth and Hamilton, and they had probably 25 people on their board at that time. We're down to 13 now at present. So they asked me if I wanted to join the board, and I said, "Sure, why not?" By now, I have lost some people and -- but my first -- first person I had lost even before I got into -- with the city, I was still working at Olin, and a good friend of mine, his name was Chuck, would always go to Atlantic City for the summer. My late husband and I were walking into the Rendezvous bar down in Atlantic City, and Chuck was coming out of the bar, and this is in the daytime around noon or so. And he had all these black and blue marks all over him, and I said look, I said, "Wow," I said, "you get into a fight?" He said, "No," he says, "they're -- it's called Kaposi's, and the doctor thinks that I need to be more in the sun" and then like two months later, he was dead. And I think this is really, really what got me more into the activism part was the Lark Inn, which was one of the big bars in Atlantic City, they knew Chuck, and they did a fundraiser for him to help pay for funeral and all that good stuff. I think this is something that I can get behind and that I -- not that I can get behind, that I need to get behind. So that's probably the first part of my activism, which is small steps. So I joined the FACT board, and they were still not sure if I was gay or straight because I didn't say I was gay or straight, they knew I was married and had a daughter. And it happened to be at one of the Summer games that we were up at -- and we were all having dinner together, and I started talking about my partner Will. And they just tilt their head like, "Well," -- [coughs] -- excuse me, "what -- what's the story here, are you gay, are you straight, are you bi?" I said, "Well, I've been all three," but I said, "but I'm gay, I'm gay," and I said, "the person that I'm with is the person that I'm with," which is Will. My wife and I got divorced in 1996, and like I said, that's another story maybe for another time, but... So then he started coming to events with me and he -- we would decorate, and he was part of the -- excuse me [coughs] -- part of the decorating crew. And they called him Balloon Man because he had the helium tank, and he had all the balloons, and he would just whip these all out and get balloons all over the place. So I joined the board, and then one of the members of the board had passed away from AIDS, and he was the education chair, that was, that was Tom. And I said, "Hey, if you need a new education chair, here I am." I said, "It's what I do, it's one of the jobs that I do in my job description." So I've been doing all of the education for FACT since 1992. Of course, I'm still on the board, and they would not let me go. And then we had a former president -- a former board member, and she passed away -- not from AIDS, but she had passed away. She was the treasurer of the organization which she was also what was called a contingency chairperson. And the contingency chairperson is the one that does all of the funding for clients, and I'll explain that a little more down the road here. So I said, "Let me do that." MF: Hi, I'm Mary, I'm back with David Moyer. We just took a quick break, and David was telling us a little bit about his work with FACT on the -- directly the educational mission for that organization. And I'm going to turn it back over to him to talk a little bit about FACT's organizational structure and his work with that. DM: Yeah, oh, thank you. Well, FACT, like I said, started -- was really started in 1986 -- '85--'86 with our -- for the LGBT community because nothing was being done for their friends that were passing from AIDS. So their first events -- first event was this game up in -- a bar game up in -- at Rainbow Mountain in the Poconos. And at that time, we had a lot of bars, so we had the Stonewall Bar, we had Candida's, we had Jeff's City Line Pub, we had the Red Star from Reading, we had the Glass Door, we had Blue Bugle up in the Stroudsburg area. So they would all compete for a trophy but also to raise money. I think it was like $15, which is still a steal today. We have not raised our prices since 1986 for the Summer games itself. It's a good event because you do -- you have vendors, all different kinds of vendors, you have organizations, the other AIDS organizations at that time. And we had plenty of them back in the day who would bring in their literature and things that they would sell like T-shirts or ads or things like that as did FACT, we had our own. We would sell these shirts like I'm wearing, we have hats, we have keychains, we have all kinds of stuff. And one year, AIDS Outreach, which is no more, they sold tree saplings, and you could plant the trees, so there's a lot of trees that are planted up at Rainbow Mountain that are still there, and you dedicated them in somebody that you knew that had passed from AIDS. So there's trees planted there, there's trees planted up at my house, I have two there, and at some of the gay campgrounds, Camp Oneida, which is up near the border of Pennsylvania and New York State, I have trees planted there, there's trees planted at Hillside. I don't think there's planted any at The Woods Campground because this -- that was way too early for that. So there's different committees in the organization. We have structure, we have a president, we have a vice president, we have a secretary, we have a treasurer, those are the four main. At present time, we have two co-chairs for the vice chair and then we have, like I said, the others there. Personally, I have been president twice, I've been vice president twice, I have been secretary three times now because I'm now the current secretary besides being the -- contingency and education chairperson. I've never been treasurer and I'm -- never will be because I can't balance my own checkbook, but anyway, that's neither here nor there. But FACT itself, we became incorporated as a 501[c][3] nonprofit. We are the only agency still alive today that receives no city, state, or federal funding. All the monies that we raise are raised through grassroots efforts, and that can be through -- back in the day, we did house parties. Like I would have a house party at my house, and maybe it was the start for that night of the house parties. Maybe we would just do hors d'oeuvres and you'd go from there to maybe your house where you would have drinks and then go somewhere else for -- or you do the whole thing. You had the option of saying, okay, I'm going to charge $5, $10, $25, $50, or you just put a big fishbowl out and put in what you can, and then all that money comes back to FACT. That was one way of doing it. And then there's bingos that we have ; we continue to do bingos, we have wise -- wine tasting events, we still have the Summer games. There may be things during the year like Pride. We would rent a bus to go up to Pride in New York, and you could do whatever you want. We also have that in December for pre-Christmas. You can go out in December and holiday shop or go to a show or do whatever you want to do. We had one board member who was very creative in writing murder mysteries, and they were interactive murder mysteries, really, really good, Bruce Brown. And Bruce still does radio shows here in -- at the Red Door from Muhlenberg College, and he's done several of those. The highlight of our year is our Snowball, and that's always in -- around World AIDS Day. We had not raised the price on that either in years, but we're looking at that now maybe upping some things. Membership, we've [inaudible] our membership. There's different levels of membership that you can get there as well. And like I said, the education component, we always have that at an event. Whether we're doing bingo for Pride, we always have an information table along with condoms and dental dams and lubrication and all that good stuff that -- for safe sex. We're still promoting safe sex. Even this day and age, we still need to do that. One of things that I had incorporated in was being that I work for the health department, I was able to go more places, and one of the big educational components for me was in the prison. And we were in the prison every Thursday to do education on a different unit because they had 12 different units in the local prison here, and then we would get people to sign up for testing, then we would go in on a Friday with our crew and just do testing. And then if we had tested the week before, then one of us would just go to the unit and do the test results in the unit. Unless there was a positive, then we had to bring that person down and do that in the medical department area because everybody will be warned about this is going to happen in case the person freaked out or whatever, and so, and luckily, that never happened. And then one of the big things in the last couple of years, of course the last couple of years because of COVID, we were able to do this, is that two of the State Reps Pete Schweyer and -- oh, my goodness, his name just went out of my head -- Mike Schlossberg, they hold a senior fest over in the east side of Allentown, and they've invited us -- FACT to be there for education because just because you're old doesn't mean you're not frisky. [laughs] So we have condoms available there too, and it's amazing the amount of people that stop. But one of the things that we did also to entice people to come in at our table is we do blood pressures so we -- because we can't do testing there. But we do blood pressures, so we can do that, and we can talk to the person. And even if they're not active, if they have grandchildren, we say, "Here, take a party pack for your grandson or granddaughter or whatever." And then I've also done several programs for -- at the Bradbury-Sullivan Center for their Silk group, their teens. And I've also done programs at William Allen High School and Dieruff. In fact, I was doing educational programs outside of Lehigh County when I was with the city and then that had to stop because we're encroaching in somebody else's territory, unless we get permission from the county to come in and do that, so... So the education is -- still is ongoing. I have a good friend Hollis who is part of the NAACP here in Lehigh Valley, and we did a very big program for their group. So where we're needed, we go. Probably around 1992, '93, we -- not us but a FACT Bucks County chapter was formed, and they're in New Hope, located in New Hope. So they're our sister chapter, they're still going strong, and sometimes we do events together, but most of the part, they do their thing, and we do our thing. Another thing that's -- that -- and I need to say this, is that even though we support -- FACT supports the LGBT community, we are not recognized as an LGBT organization because we have both straight and gay people on our board, and that's important for people to know. I mean the majority of us are gay but -- well, because we don't know. One of the things too is that especially with the contingencies, which I'll start talking about now, is that the -- what the contingency request is case managers at Lehigh Valley Hospital in St. Luke's, they both have an HIV/AIDS department, and they have case managers in those departments, and they have clients -- obviously, they have clients. So FACT was designed to help people who are infect-- that were infected by HIV/AIDS. [We do not know who we are helping. All we know is that the person is either infected or affected by HIV/AIDS. So you can be straight, you can be gay, you can be asexual, you can be black, white, male, female, doesn't matter who you are, if you need help and we can help, we do. Now early on in the disease, we had a lot of different categories that we were -- would fund. And in fact, we had a lot of money early on that we were able to help support the -- not necessarily the hospitals, but the other AIDS organizations with grants so that they could expand their organization. But with the way things have been occurring, we don't do that anymore. But we would help with rental, insurance, mortgage, drugs and medications are drugs and medications covered by the special pharmaceuticals benefits program that the state puts out, household items like maybe in the summer you need an air conditioner, and we always had a supply of air conditioners handy at the office they'd just take one, heating. And that's changed now because we have the LIHEAP program, which is energy conservation for people with low income or no income. Auto repair, some forms of transportation like for a person to get from -- they have bus passes to get from their home to an employment because they didn't have a car, and then the big one was the funeral expense, and we have all of those categories for years. And we're in the process of changing -- well, we've changed a lot of those. There's a lot of those that we don't fund anymore because we don't need to. And now when COVID hit, nothing was being funded per se, nothing was being funded. The only thing that we were funding were funerals. And when we look at what's happened over the last two years plus, there isn't a need for any of those other categories anymore other than the funeral expense. So that's the only thing that we're going to be funding are funerals, and we'll be upping the amount because each category had their amount. You could apply to FACT twice in one calendar year and then you could come back the following year if you needed something, and we could do that again. The clients really are encouraged to find ways of being able to support themselves because we're -- we really are considered the funders of last resort. They'd go, the hospital would do some things because they have special funding for their clients whether it's for HIV or AIDS or it could be a whole bunch of other things, but they have those. Or they can go to AIDSNET, and AIDSNET serves a six-county area. They do Lehigh, Northampton, Carbon, Monroe, Schuylkill and Berks County, and they'll fund some things too that the hospitals won't be able to fund, and if they can't fund them, then they come to FACT. But none of those organizations will -- are able to fund funerals and so we're -- that's where we're going to be at right now is funerals. And I know that we're in the beginning of 2022, and we've already had four funerals this year that we're funding. So that's pretty much where FACT is. We're the only organization left. We had tons of organizations in the area, which were needed at the time, and now with how the face of AIDS has changed, they really weren't -- aren't needed anymore. The one major one that I really was involved with was AIDS Outreach, and they were the first organization to do -- and they were the first religious organization to do anything and that was -- they -- that stemmed out of the Episcopal church. And they started down in Easton before they moved to Allentown, and they had what was called the Buddy program. The Buddy program was you were trained -- you would come in, and you were trained. You had -- it was like a two- to three-week course, usually on the weekend, and you learned different aspects of HIV/AIDS and care, and that was one of the things that I did. I did the education part for their clients. Once they finished and were graduated, then you would be assigned to somebody that was diagnosed with HIV or AIDS. You stayed with that person -- not physically stayed with that person but you stayed with that person until they died. You would take them to appointments, you would -- if you had to feed them, bathe them, whatever you had to do, that's what you did for that patient. Once that patient died, you couldn't do anything for a year. You needed to have that year off to regroup yourself and then you can come back if you wanted to. And they were located then out of -- when they moved from Trinity Episcopal Church in Easton, they moved to Grace Episcopal Church which is my home church here. And they were there until 2000 and--either 7 or 8 is when they closed, so, yeah, they closed. Gilead House, which was on the state hospital grounds of Allentown, they just had gotten started and then they closed down. Berks AIDS Network, which is called BAN, they're out of Reading, they've changed their whole dynamics and I think they're doing just more than just HIV/AIDS. We used to have a Latino AIDS outreach, which we don't have anymore. They were located -- they started in Bethlehem, they moved to Allentown. We still have HAO, Hispanic AIDS Organization. I think they're located down where the old -- where the original Lehigh Valley Chamber of Commerce, it's at Fifth and Walnut. I'm trying to think if we have any other organizations. There is still a couple, but we had back -- back in the day, we had the AIDS Task Force, and we had about 30 different organizations that were part of that, a lot of church, the hospitals. [Rick Hoss?] was part of that, the blood banks were part of that. There were so many organizations back in the day, which were needed. And then you had the upspring of the AIDS organizations here, the -- not the AIDS organizations, the LGBT organizations. Le-Hi-Ho, Lambda, and finally with the Bradbury-Sullivan Center, which has done a lot of great stuff for the area here of -- they've helped me a lot especially with the loss of my husband. Then we just keep going. One of the things that I do in my presentations is I always end my talks with one of my favorite movies is, and one of the first Hollywood big movies was called Longtime Companion, and it takes place in New York and primarily like in Fire Island, in that area. And the main character, his name is Willy, and there was a whole group of his friends that always would get together and like people still do. But he was the only one left, all his friends had died, and he's walking on the beach in Fire Island, and the last line of the movie is, "All I want is a cure and my friends back," and that's how I feel. I hate this disease. I'm sorry, but [sighs] it's tough. Back in the day, you had to know somebody or know where things were if you were to go and meet somebody or hook up. We don't have that now. We have -- maybe I shouldn't say we don't have that now, we don't. I'd say that we need it now, but we have the internet. The internet has changed everything for everybody, not just the gay community, but for everybody. You'd go to the bar and hopefully you meet somebody and maybe get lucky and go home. Now you can sit in the comfort of your living room in your pajamas or underwear or naked and cruise somebody on a website and have cybersex, which is safe, but it's not fun. [laughter] We had in the day -- this was our internet, I wanted to show this. It's called The Damron Book, address book. If you were gay and in the know and you were a traveler, that this is what you wanted because if you were going to go to... I'm just going to pick out one in here -- Massachusetts, and I was going to go to um, uh -- where we could go here, oh jeez -- Brockton, Massachusetts, there's an area that says cruisy areas, so this is where you can go, and that's where you would look at. Or you go to Chelsea, Massachusetts, there was only one bar John's, and it was mixed, but it was mostly men, some women, and there's a code. So you could tell if you -- let me see if I can get in here. There's a key code, if you were looking for alcohol, beer, and wine, if there was a B in there, it was multiracial clientele ; if you were into leather, there would be an L there for leather ; N, nudity because there are some bars that you could be nude in, I know that for a fact, it's down in New Orleans, SW had a swimming pool, okay, yeah. So let's see or YC, young and college type. You could know where to go and what you're going to be looking for. And I always had mine with me because I travel a lot. Especially in the military, it's something that I had to hide, I really had to keep that hidden because if that would've come out, I would've been out. But then we get to a point where I would go to -- my unit would go a lot to Gulfport, Mississippi. There's a base down in Gulfport, and it's only like 70 miles from New Orleans. And fortunately, I had a friend who lived in Quakertown, and he had moved to New Orleans. His daughter was there, she opened up a -- her version of the Christmas trees store, and so was all Christmas, right, just a bunch, she was also a lesbian. And he was very creative, so he would make stuff for her to sell in the store. When I knew that my unit was going to be going down there, I would contact him and say, "Pete, I'm going to be in the area, do you got room for me?" So he says, "Yeah, yeah, just let me know when you get here and then -- so he would take me to all the places that I didn't have to -- I didn't need the book because he had it firsthand in that. But there were some wild bars down there that's -- I was very bad and very, very bad. It's just changed, and I don't know how the younger crowd is really coping with that. This is something that we lived through and had to find our way through because we didn't have the stuff that we have now. And I don't know if that's -- for me, I don't think that's fun, you need to be out there and experience. So for the future of the LGBT community, I have no idea what it's going to look like in 10 years. I mean we thrived here in the Lehigh Valley, we had all these bars, we had -- the cruising place is still there, but you would have to be careful there because of the police now. It wasn't like it was back in our days. We would drive around and around, and I'd mentioned this before with my friend Tommy and Eddie, we would drive around for hours just cruising, yeah, not necessarily picking anybody up, but you can do that. You can't do that because you see the signs, no, no cruising 7:00 to 10:00 pm. on this street or no cruising 6:00 to 9:00 p.m. on this street. DM: So I don't know where it's going, I really don't. I know that for ME as a gay man, I have lived through a lot. I've done a lot, there's still more for me to do. I said when I get into this line of work with HIV that I will never stop, I won't -- going as long as I can. I don't want to let my friends down because I promised them that I would do this. I have two diseases that I'm very passionate about, HIV and AIDS and ALS, Lou Gehrig's disease. My husband died from Lou Gehrig's disease seven and a half years ago, another horrible disease. Those are really the only two organizations that I helped and I'm staying with. And it's hard to get the younger generation involved in any of those type of work or even an interest. I do have to commend, and I can't remember her last name was. Her name is Rachel, she does a lot for -- she's a teacher at Allen High School and she's the one that runs the GSL groups. And probably about five years ago, we had -- the Bradbury-Sullivan Center had the -- a portion of AIDS quilt on display down there, and she asked me to come in and speak to the kids about my life as a gay man and work in HIV and that. And I think the thing that grabbed them, the kids -- I mean they were interested in the quilt, but there were people on that quilt that I knew and I think that was really meaningful for -- to them, and it really kept their attention. One story that I really do want to give to you is my first experience with the quilt, and it was here at Muhlenberg College, and that was, I'm going to say '95 or '96 when it was here. I'm not exactly sure, I think it was '95 or '96. We had all the organization that were still going were involved with that, and there was a training on how to display the quilt because there's a whole ceremony. If you haven't seen it, Google it because it's something that is really it's intense. And we had it at the -- it was the Field House here on the campus. We were in the small palestra and they had these huge boxes, there must have been 30 of these boxes if not more with the quilt panels. They come and they're folded, so they're telling us, "This is what you need to do. Once you have the panel, to fold the panel down it takes eight people to do it, a section." So they said, "Go over and get one out of the box," so we go over and get one out and put it down. And we each have our space where we're at, and we're opening it and it's -- you do it very slowly. It's like working with the American flag, you -- it's -- you do it, that's how you do it. And I had the last corner of the one that I have, opened it up, and looked at the name. His name was Steve [Kalisky?]. He was the one who was responsible for me meeting my husband... I lost it. And what were the chances of that, me getting that panel? It was meant to happen. I just -- I lost it, I said -- I still get... And I brought Will out that night, so he could be with me when it was opened, and that -- [sighs] I don't know where to go from here. MF: You're describing a lot of moving events that occurred in our community, the bringing the quilt here to the Lehigh Valley. You've also talked about the Snowball, you talked about the Summer games, and you've talked about the public health piece of your work both with the Allentown Health Bureau and also with FACT. DM: Mm-hmm. MF: I'm wondering about FACT's relationship to other AIDS organizations?. Because you're working in two different fields, you're also part of the Buddy -- the Buddy program, but there was a program out of the Lambda center that I think became AIDS Services. But how are all of those organizations working together or were they not? DM: No, they were, -- MF: working together? DM: -- they were. And I say this at conferences that I've gone to. Me personally, I have been so blessed and honored to work with the amount of organizations that we have in the Lehigh Valley. They all work together, they always have, they always will. When one fails, it's like a failure for all of us whether that failure is good or bad. It's good that we don't need the Buddy program anymore for as much I loved it, we don't, I mean the people are living a lot longer. Yes, people are still dying, but they don't need that, that extra kick or whatever it is. And the thing that really, really impresses me, we have two major hospitals here in the Lehigh Valley. We have St. Luke's and we have Lehigh Valley, and they're always at odds with each other, they are. Well, let's build a bigger one here, let's build -- let's put two together here. The AIDS organizations or AIDS department in each of those two hospitals are like this. You don't see that, you don't see that in Philadelphia, you don't see that in New York, you don't see that anywhere. You see it here, and that's -- that impresses me, and that is something that I tell people. We are all in this together, we are, and if you can't work together, it's not going to work. You're setting yourself up for failure really is what it is, so... I have another story that's not really AIDS related, but it's about my husband, about my late husband. And I guess his and my coming out -- we were together for, I'm going to say, seven or eight years, at least seven or eight years if not more. And one of the goods things is that his whole family is just great, absolutely great. But his mother and his older sister -- because his younger sister was living in Florida for like 25 years, and she's back here now -- but they would go to a lot of the events. One of the events that I didn't mention was called Summer Solstice, and we always did it around the twenty-first of June, and we always had it at a private home somewhere. Our former vice president who just passed away several months ago, Carl he had it -- he hosted it at his place and he had the entire meal up in -- off of 512 for a couple of years. But there was a prominent New York doctor who had a place down in Coopersburg, Center Valley, a private area, jeez, and huge pond and -- but a huge house in this. But we had it down there and we took his sister and his mother along down there. His mother was always the center of attraction, a little woman, crazy for her, loved her. And so we're getting pretty lit, and we're coming home, and we got back to the house, opened up some more champagne and or whatever, we're still drinking. And Will decided he was going to go to bed, so he went to bed, so it was just the three of us, me, Fern, and Vicky. And somehow, it came up about me or Will not being married yet. And Vicky looks at his -- at her mother, she says, "Think, Mom, they're gay." And she said, "What do you mean gay?" "They're gay, they've been together -- living together for almost 10 years now," and she said, "Oh, my son's gay." [laughs] Now, neither one of them were able to drive home because they wanted to go home, called the cab, and Vicky says to me the next day, "Oh my God, I can't believe Fern, I can't believe her" -- because she called her Fern -- "all she kept saying to the cab driver is, 'My son's gay, my son's gay.'" [laughs] and she said, "Everybody knows." Well, she didn't know, and Dad didn't know either. He may have suspected, but he never said anything, and he's one of these... But we always got along, nothing was ever said about -- you know. They were at my wedding when I get married to Betsy. I mean nothing was said that -- to Dad that well, you know, your son's gay or whatever, and we still didn't say it because we never -- when we would be together for dinners or parties or something at their house because it was always -- we either met at their place or we met at our place, depending on what the holiday was because we would always do Mother's Day and Father's Day for his parents, Christmas and Thanksgiving was always at their place but anyway. I don't know where I'm going with this ; there was something else I was going to say about that. Oh, gosh, what was it? Oh, when Will passed, and that was September of 2014, and we did everything at the church. His dad was there, he didn't go to the cemetery, but he was there for the viewing, he was there for the funeral mass and that. And they were taking everything out to the hearse, and they said he didn't want to go to the cemetery, but I get up and I stood in front of him, and I said, "You know I loved your son," and he said, "I know," and that's where we left it. So now we can talk, we talk up -- if we're together, but this one's gay or that one's gay or whatever. My great-niece's best friend is gay, still in high school yet. Everything is good, everything is good. Now I couldn't have asked for a better family than his, all of them, all of them. There wasn't anybody in his family that looked down on us because we were gay, every one of them. When Will and I were going to have a commitment ceremony at our church because it still wasn't legal in Pennsylvania. It came a couple of months later, but we had been married in California, but we wanted to do something at our church. I had not been out to -- my only two relatives, really relatives that are alive and my -- were alive on my side were my aunt and uncle, my mother's brother, and I called them up -- no, I asked them to come over for dinner. So they came for dinner, and I said, "I -- we have something that we want to tell you, and we want to ask you and you can either say yes or no," and I said, "Will and I when we were in California, we were -- we got married, and we want to have a commitment ceremony at our church, would you come?" They knew, we never discussed anything but we -- they knew, and they were so grateful that we included them in because that's -- they were the only relatives on my side. When they died -- I'm the last on my side, when I die, blood line ends. My daughter doesn't count, I shouldn't say it that way, but she doesn't count, she's not a boy so she can't carry on my name. Indirectly she could but it's all messed up, so... But, yeah, I wanted to get that in there, so... I have been very blessed to have the support that I've had over these years. My faith community is by far the best. I have two parishioners who are originally from -- well, [Haley?] has risen from here, but her husband is Filipino, but they lived in California for years and they -- because he has -- he still has family out there, so they go out occasionally. And when Will died, passed away, somebody let them know that he had died, and they called me immediately, and they canceled the rest of their trip and came home just to help support me. Who does that? You hear so many horror stories in the LGBT community, getting kicked out or being spit on or being assaulted or being murdered, I feel -- there's times where I feel guilty because I haven't had any of that. I mean I've had some looks and some comments but few and far between, not by anybody in my immediate circle. Even some of the guys in my military unit knew I was gay. You do your job, and that's what I'm there for, I do my job, what I do on my own time is my own time. Yeah, I would go out and party with them, and I would go to the strip clubs, and I'd get up on this stage with the girls and do all kinds of things, not sexual but have a good time. I think they really appreciated that, that I'm not the typical faggot for lack of better words. I am who I am ; I can have a good time with anybody. I just don't know. I pray that the next generation, upcoming generation, is going to be okay and not have a lot of negativity or stuff because there's just way too much of that now. You didn't see that back in the days. You didn't see drag queens getting killed or transgender people getting mugged or killed or -- it's just it's like an epidemic. That shooting down at the Pulse nightclub in Florida that -- a couple of years ago, you don't see that. And I think that's another good thing about the area here, maybe we're just special. There was very little trouble in any of the gay bars here or even at the events. Early on in the Pride festivals that we had at Cedar Beach and that we would have protestors, not a lot, but there'd be some there, but it was peaceful, peaceful yeah. Nobody was flaunting anything, well some of the drag queens were, but that's a given. So I don't know if we're just fortunate to be where we are and have what we have, I don't know. MF: So, David we're right up almost at the end of our 90 minutes, and before we close the interview, I just want to give you some space. Is there anything we didn't talk about today that you really wish we would have and that you'd like to share now? DM: Ohm, I think we've covered... I mean I could've talked a bit more about my sexual experiences, but I don't know. [laughs] That's for the book. I'm grateful to you for wanting to do this. I'm open, I try to be as open as I can. I think we covered -- I really wanted to get in there about my husband and my marriage, which never should've happened, but it did. That soured me for a few years because it wasn't -- it wasn't me that wanted to end the divorce, it was me that ended the divorce, but it wasn't me that was at fault. There's little tidbits here and there of things that I may have missed that are okay, but I think for the most part, that I've answered what you were or gave you whatever you were looking for. If there's anything that I think of, I'll let you know, but at this point I think we're good. Just use what I gave you to include, yeah, paper-wise, and if there's anything else that you need from me, just let me know, and if I can find it, I will gladly help out any way I can because this -- this is just so important. I mean I don't know how many others like this are going on in the country. Hopefully, there's more because we can't be swept under the carpet. We're here, we're queer, get over it, I'm ending there. MF: What a wonderful way to end. Thank you so much, David, for speaking with me today. I'm so grateful to hear your life story. I'm really, really moved by what you shared today. Thank you. DM: You're welcome, you're welcome. Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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David Moyer Part 2, February 11, 2022
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David Moyer details his marriage, work in HIV/AIDS healthcare and activism with Fighting AIDS Continuously Together (FACT), and personal relationships.
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LGBT-24
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2022-02-11
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: HIV/AIDS
Description
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In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Liz Bradbury
Interviewee
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David Moyer
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_16.xml
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5.4 June 18, 2020 David Moyer, June 18, 2020 PH40_16 01:28:18 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg AIDS (Disease) David Moyer Liz Bradbury video/mpeg DaveMoyer_20200618_video.mp4 1.0:|19(11)|44(2)|69(10)|90(8)|109(12)|124(12)|145(4)|170(2)|187(5)|202(3)|223(7)|242(15)|263(7)|276(16)|305(4)|316(4)|337(2)|362(9)|379(6)|406(2)|433(2)|458(4)|477(11)|504(12)|529(3)|548(10)|571(6)|592(10)|615(4)|632(10)|663(3)|688(4)|705(4)|726(17)|751(7)|776(11)|799(5)|820(12)|835(16)|856(8)|871(4)|888(15)|909(3)|926(16)|955(2)|990(4)|1013(12)|1034(8)|1049(16)|1070(2)|1087(17)|1106(2)|1123(16)|1144(13)|1167(7)|1182(14)|1209(6)|1242(10)|1267(5)|1286(4)|1299(15)|1320(15)|1345(6)|1362(16)|1381(2)|1408(8)|1427(2)|1446(12)|1461(6)|1484(4)|1503(12)|1530(9)|1551(6)|1578(5)|1605(16)|1626(12)|1659(6)|1692(2)|1717(17)|1738(7)|1771(3)|1798(7)|1815(7)|1842(11)|1865(10)|1900(4)|1925(6)|1968(4)|1979(5) 0 https://youtu.be/Hc7bXI-EczI YouTube video English 3 Interview Introduction LIZ BRADBURY: So, I am going to read through this stuff and start out with this and then we’ll go along with this. With this project, the Bradbury Sullivan LGBT Community Center and Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College, we’ll collaborate on 40 years of public health experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community, collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury and I’m here with David Moyer to talk about his experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during the time, during now the time of the COVID pandemic, as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive. We’re meeting on Zoom and today is June 18th, 2020. Thank you very much, David, for your willingness to speak with us today. Can I first have your full name and for you to spell it for me? 0 174 First becoming aware of HIV/AIDS as a corpsman in the Navy LB: Great, okay! So, let’s talk! Oh, let me say, let me just start it off by this first question. But you can say anything you want, we can go on as long as you want. In the midst of the current health, public health crisis we’re experiencing, we want to take this opportunity to look back and through the worst and capture the stories of those who lived through the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic in the 1980s and the ’90s. So, we start out with asking people when you remember the first time that you sort of became aware of the disease. But, you know, start telling me about it and go ahead and do that. If you need [to pause?] or something, we’ll stop.
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 ; DM: Yeah, I would say articles, on television, and I think -- well, articles on television’s news reports on television and a few things that I had read. But I think my first inclination of it was when I was still in the naval reserve in the military. 0 476 Being a gay man in the Navy in the 1980s DM: And, you know, even though, you know, I’m a gay man, I wasn’t out-out with my battalion. There were people in my unit that knew I was gay and were cool with it. And, in fact, I think my commanding officer knew that I was gay but as long as I did my job, he didn’t care, you know? My sexual orientation was my own because you still could be discharged, you know, for being gay. Course and that all changed when President Clinton came in and did that “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” thing. And, you know, we would get reports about how many cases were in each of the branches of the service and, you know, I think the Army was number one with number of cases. 0 588 Formation of FACT in 1986 / First encounter with somebody who was HIV positive DM: And we had the bars going on and nothing happened until, I’m going to say, ’86 is when FACT was formed.
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 ; LB: Right.
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 ; DM: And that’s Fighting AIDS Continuously Together and they’ve been in existence since then.
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 ; LB: Yeah.
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 ; DM: And my first encounter with somebody who was HIV positive was a gentleman by the name of Chuck [Shook?], who has passed on. And I knew him from the old Le Hi Kai days, when Le Hi Kai was going, and that was a bar on Hamilton Street between 9th and 10th, 8th and 9th, somewhere in that area. And we ran into him in Atlantic City and there was a bar in Atlantic City on New York Avenue called the Rendezvous. 0 852 Job Interview at the Allentown Health Bureau DM: And Rose knew that I was looking for a job and she knew my background, you know, as a nurse. And said there was a job that was open at the Allentown Health Bureau that she thought I would be good at. So, she gave me the information and I went in and, you know, to make a long story short, I had about a three hour interview with [Anne Taylor?], who was the director of the department at that time. I don’t know if you remember Anne or not. Wonderful, wonderful woman. And the job started at, like, nine dollars an hour. And when I’d left Allwyn, I was making $17 an hour, so it was kind of a, yeah, pay cut. 0 1014 CDC training and counseling in administering HIV/AIDS tests / Testing at the Lehigh County prison DM: I had some training from Jose Cruz, who is the medical person for Bethlehem Health Bureau.
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 ; LB: Yeah, yeah.
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 ; DM: And then, Linda, was Linda [Kenna?], who was my office mate and she was from Panama. So, again, she was fluent in Spanish. But the two of us actually went to the CDC in Atlanta, Georgia for counseling and training how to, you know, how to actually test for somebody, you know, sit down and counsel somebody, which was a great experience. And then, from there, it just blossomed out into, you know, what I did for 21 years at the health department. 0 1344 Testing thousands of individuals and delivering positive tests / Testing local high school and college students / Contact Tracing LB: Yeah. When you were seeing those people and testing them, were you seeing a lot of people that were testing positive?
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 ; DM: Yes, yeah. I have, in the 20 years that I worked in the health department, I would say, wow, I’ve tested thousands of individuals. I know that I have delivered more than 400 positive tests over that timeframe. And I have lost more than 400 friends to this disease.
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 ; LB: My gosh.
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 ; DM: So, it was very, very important for me, because one of the things that I, you know, I had vowed to myself is that, you know, I will never forget this important work and I will continue to do whatever I can. And that’s why I’m still on the board of FACT, even though I’m retired. I will still go out and do programs if I need to. 0 1696 Having friends who tested positive DM: Yeah. That didn’t happen a lot but it did. So, I had the luxury of spending as much time with that individual -- you know, we talked, we would cry. I would cry with them, you know, just each one for me was personal. And I still have friends who I know are positive. And I know what it’s going to be like when they pass. I mean, they’re doing good but, still, you know, they’re good friends of mine for years, you know? So, I was thankful for that, that I was able to have as much time with that individual. And, you know, people would come back for testing and would want to see me because they knew how I was, you know? 0 1944 AIDS Services Center / Finding doctors who would take care of positive HIV/AIDS patients / Comfort of having an advocate in the health department DM: But I do know that there was a time -- it wasn’t so much finding a doctor because now we had that going on, we had the AIDS Service Center, where people were going to St. Luke’s at that point. And that was with, you know, with Dixie White and Rose Craig starting that. And then, we had Linda Gallagher with the AIDS outreach for the Buddy Program to do things. But one of the things that sticks in my mind is one of the things that was really hard to find was a dentist who would take care of HIV/AIDS patients. So, there were several doctors, dentists in the area that would do that. They would see patients. But there was one dentist who absolutely refused to see patients. And I had reported that individual to the ADA. And I don’t think they pulled that person’s, you know -- 0 2274 The beginning of FACT / Joining the board of FACT and becoming the education chair / Lehigh Valley hospital taking over the AIDS Activities Office LB: Talk a little bit about how FACT started up and what that was like for you in the beginning.
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 ; DM: Yeah, well, I had heard about FACT. Occasionally, Will and I would go out to the bars. Not often, but we would go to Candida’s and there was talk about an event, money -- you know, a fundraising event that was going to be held out at this gay resort in Stroudsburg, Rainbow Mountain and should we go? And first, we thought -- and, again, this is before I came to the health department. So, well, I don’t know that many people yet that have this disease or have died from it. And it was up in the Poconos and, oh, do I want to drive there? 0 2782 Stigma associated with testing positive / Discussing the diagnosis of HIV/AIDS being a death sentence early in the epidemic / How education and medications factor into having HIV/AIDS now LB: Did people used to talk about stigma in terms of if they tested positive and what they -- the kinds of potential discrimination they would face or that people had had to face?
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 ; DM: Yeah. A lot of different things there. So, if they were in a relationship, if you test positive, you have to tell your partner. “Well, I can’t do that. I can’t do that.” I would say, “Bring your partner in” or, “I -- again, come to where you live. We can sit and talk about this if you want to.” There was all kinds of reactions. I mean, that’s one. Some people contemplated suicide. And that’s another whole set of issues if you have somebody suicidal. So now, I need to refer this person to the suicide prevention group. And one person I know actually did commit suicide. They jumped off the Americus Hotel building. 0 3247 AZT and its side effects LB: Could you just say a little bit more about AZT? Because I don’t think people -- I mean, the whole thing about AZT and how significant it was with regard to making people feel better for a while but really -- what do you think about that?
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 ; DM: Yeah, well, AZT came out because of ACT UP, the AIDS Coalition to Unleash Power, kind of like what’s going on now with things but not with the medication. And normally, it takes about 10 years for a medication to be approved by the FDA. And people were dying. People were dying at large rates. And they said something needs to be done, so they got this medication, they push and I think it took, like, 18 months for it to be approved. 0 3533 FACT assistance with funerals / FACT raising money through fundraisers LB: Yeah, yeah. Some people have told me about -- and I moved here in 1987 but I didn’t know as many people in the community until I started to be involved with the Pride festival, which wasn’t until nineteen ninety-three and four. Then I was, Trish and I, were beginning to be involved. But in the eighties, there were a lot of funerals and I think FACT [reported?] people with regard to those funerals. Is that something that you were involved with or was it later?
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 ; DM: Yeah, well, I came onto the board in, I want to say, nineteen ninety-two . And I guess I was the education chair, that person. I can’t think who the person was that was the contingency person, chairperson. And what the contingencies are are applications that case managers in the hospitals who had HIV/AIDS clinics would apply to FACT for some kind of assistance. And we had different categories and we still have different categories, rental assistance, auto repair or help with their insurance, medications back then, dental, certain types of med-surg procedures, utilities, heating, air conditioning, things like that. 0 3820 Comparisons between HIV/AIDS and COVID-19 DM: So, this is giving us the time to sit back and kind of look at things differently. We, you know, we know that there are -- I mean, anybody can get this, whether it’s the COVID-19 or HIV. Well, with HIV, there are specific ways that you’re going to get it. But with this COVID, there can be a myriad of ways because we just can talk to each other and one of you can have it and not know it. And when you’re looking at signs and symptoms, it’s pretty much the same with HIV. You get infected with HIV and it can take up to six months before you can test positive for it, be as little as -- it can show up as early, HIV can show up as early as two weeks after exposure but it usually takes three to six months. With COVID, it can be a couple weeks to a couple months, again, with symptoms, from what I understand. So, they are similar and I think education is important. It infuriates me, it really infuriated me yesterday when I hear that the Pennsylvania state Republican group wants to impeach Governor Wolf. Ah! What are you thinking? And all the derogatory stuff they say about Dr. Levine. What are you people thinking? 0 3953 Other organizations FACT works with / BINGO fundraising at Pride / Testing at Pride LB: Well, talk about some of the organizations in the Lehigh Valley that FACT has worked with and that you’ve worked with. I mean, you mentioned doing presentations for the youth group that we have through our community center. But you’ve been doing that all along for the last 30, 35 years, 40 years.
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 ; DM: Yeah, yeah, we did a program with the NAACP a few years ago. Hollis Perry was instrumental in getting us to do that. And we’re looking at doing something again when we can. I’d done a program for -- I can’t think of her last name. She’s the high school teacher, chemistry teacher, Rachel -- 0 4415 PrEP and PEP LB: Yeah, yeah. What do you think about PrEP and PEP?
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 ; DM: I think it’s needed. I’m okay with it. I think it needs to be pushed a little more. And as long as they’re getting the information out about both of them, I think that’s what’s important. And then, to be -- the people who really want it, you know, then taking it, yeah.
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 ; LB: Yeah, yeah. I just read a thing that said that in other countries, a year’s course of PEP or PrEP costs about twenty-two dollars and in the United States, costs two-thousand dollars. 0 4693 Reflections on death, dying, and the grieving process / Difference dealing with death during COVID-19 LB: Let’s see, I think we’ve got about ten minutes left, so, in our ninety-minute interview. So, is there anything you really want to be sure that people understand about this time, that time, and the impact that it had on you? In some ways, it kind of shaped your life.
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 ; DM: Yeah, I think, excuse me, (clears throat) one thing that I remember and one of the -- and I took as much training as I was able to when I was working for the health department. And I think the major thing for me was all of the death and dying. And I was in a training in Philadelphia and one of the instructors was a doctor in psychology. 0 5091 Doing education trainings at local high schools LB: I think we’re just about to the end and I just wanted to say one thing in case it wasn’t clear when you were talking about it but Rachel Zane is the facilitator and advisor for the Gay-Straight Alliance at the high school, at --
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 ; DM: [Cool?].
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 ; LB: -- Allen, just so that that’s on --
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 ; DM: Okay.
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 ; LB: -- [information?], so that people can understand that you’ve been going into public schools to do some really significant programs. And she’s a great resource to hook people up. I think the work that you’ve been doing, yeah, now you’ve had a lifetime of work helping people in this community. It’s really been a significant thing --
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 ; DM: Yeah.
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 ; LB: (inaudible) [lives?]. It’s a big deal.
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 ; DM: I, yeah --
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 ; LB: Yeah.
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 ; DM: -- I really enjoyed my twenty, twenty-one, twenty-plus years at the Allentown Health Bureau because I’ve met some wonderful people. 0 MovingImage David Moyer talks about the AIDS epidemic in the Lehigh Valley of Pennsylvania. He focuses on his work as a nurse in the Allentown Health Department ; shares about local AIDS education, testing, and the experience of notifying people of positive tests ; the formation of Fighting AIDS Continuously Together (FACT) ; and how HIV/AIDS compares to COVID-19. DAVE MOYER LIZ BRADBURY: So, I am going to read through this stuff and start out with this and then we'll go along with this. With this project, the Bradbury Sullivan LGBT Community Center and Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College, we'll collaborate on 40 years of public health experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community, collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury and I'm here with David Moyer to talk about his experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during the time, during now the time of the COVID pandemic, as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive. We're meeting on Zoom and today is June 18th, 2020. Thank you very much, David, for your willingness to speak with us today. Can I first have your full name and for you to spell it for me? DAVID MOYER: Sure, and thank you for having me involved in this. It's very important. David Kenneth Moyer. D-A-V-I-D K-E-N-N-E-T-H M-O-Y-E-R. LB: Good. And can you please share your birth date? DM: Of course. (laughs) April 23rd, 1943. LB: Okay. DM: I'm very old. LB: Now, now, you are not. (laughter) This is the consent part of the interview. So, I have to ask you these questions. So, do you consent to this interview today? DM: Yes. LB: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable formats? DM: Yes. LB: Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats, including films, articles, websites, presentations, and other formats? DM: Yes. LB: Do you understand that you will have 30 days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview and identify any parts you'd like to delete and/or withdraw in your interview from the project? DM: Yes. LB: Great, okay! So, let's talk! Oh, let me say, let me just start it off by this first question. But you can say anything you want, we can go on as long as you want. In the midst of the current health, public health crisis we're experiencing, we want to take this opportunity to look back and through the worst and capture the stories of those who lived through the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic in the 1980s and the '90s. So, we start out with asking people when you remember the first time that you sort of became aware of the disease. But, you know, start telling me about it and go ahead and do that. If you need [to pause?] or something, we'll stop. DM: Yeah, I would say articles, on television, and I think -- well, articles on television's news reports on television and a few things that I had read. But I think my first inclination of it was when I was still in the naval reserve in the military. I am a retired senior chief hospital corpsman at 30 years in with the Navy. And being medical, we would get reports about what was going on, especially from the CDC. LB: Right. DM: We weren't doing any testing at that point but they weren't sure what was going on. And then, again, the reports that were coming out initially were, you know, it was this was in gay men, it was in intravenous drug users. They weren't exactly sure how it was being transmitted, things like that, you know? The old school stuff. So, I really wasn't involved in with the gay community at the time. I knew that things were going on but I wasn't part of any organization. I had met my late husband, William, in 1981, and that's when the first cases were put out, I think was June 5th, 1981. But, you know, I guess we really didn't think of it or, you know, I guess I can say I wasn't concerned at the time, you know? I'm in a relationship now and, you know, this really isn't going to affect me. That was the mindset back then. Of course, then, over the years, once the cases were increasing and now there was testing, the military started testing. And that was one of the things that I had to do. And I guess fortunately at that time, we would test everybody in my unit and in my battalion and we had nobody that had tested positive. But there were reports of people, you know, testing positive that were in the military, active duty military. And back then, if you were in the military and you tested positive, you were discharged right away. And then, they kind of changed the policy a little bit. It said that, okay, if you test positive, you'd go to -- there were several hospitals, military hospitals in the United States where you could go for treatment if you wanted to. And then, they changed the policy again that says you can stay in the military, you can finish your term in the military, but when it was over you were not able to reenlist. You had to get out. And then they changed it again, that said if you were in the military and you tested positive while you were in, you could stay in but you could not deploy outside of the United States. You had to stay in country. So, that's how the military handled it at that time. I don't know how it is now [because?] I -- LB: That was in the '80s? That was -- DM: What was that? LB: -- in the '80s? DM: Yeah, that was, yeah, I would say the late '80s, around 1888 [sic], '89, when they started testing. And, like I said, you know, we -- there was nobody in my unit that had tested positive. And, you know, even though, you know, I'm a gay man, I wasn't out-out with my battalion. There were people in my unit that knew I was gay and were cool with it. And, in fact, I think my commanding officer knew that I was gay but as long as I did my job, he didn't care, you know? My sexual orientation was my own because you still could be discharged, you know, for being gay. Course and that all changed when President Clinton came in and did that "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" thing. And, you know, we would get reports about how many cases were in each of the branches of the service and, you know, I think the Army was number one with number of cases. Navy was number two. Marine Corps was three, and Air Force was fourth with number of cases. And Coast Guard was there but they were very low. So, that really was my first exposure, you know, to all this. And I was working at [Allwyn?] Corporation at the time because I am a nurse by trade. But I was working for Allwyn Corporation at that time and because there was nothing going on there, so -- and, again, I wasn't involved with any organizations, any LGBT organizations back then. And we had the bars going on and nothing happened until, I'm going to say, '86 is when FACT was formed. LB: Right. DM: And that's Fighting AIDS Continuously Together and they've been in existence since then. LB: Yeah. DM: And my first encounter with somebody who was HIV positive was a gentleman by the name of Chuck [Shook?], who has passed on. And I knew him from the old Le-Hi Kai days, when Le-Hi Kai was going, and that was a bar on Hamilton Street between 9th and 10th, 8th and 9th, somewhere in that area. And we ran into him in Atlantic City and there was a bar in Atlantic City on New York Avenue called the Rendezvous. And he was coming out of the bar and we were going in, my late husband, Will, and I. And he looked really -- he had all these black and blue marks all over him, which was Kaposi sarcoma and I didn't know that at the time. I didn't know what that was. And he said, oh, you know, he's [doing okay?]. The doctor says that he really needs to be in the sun because the doctor thinks that the exposure to the sunlight would be good for this condition that he had. And that was the last that I'd seen of him. And then, he -- there was a bar called the Lark Inn, which was right on New York Avenue. It was the first bar if you were coming off the boardwalk on New York Avenue. And I would say maybe six months later, they were doing a fundraiser for him to help with the medical bills for him. So, we went down to that. So, he really was the first person that I knew that had AIDS and had succumbed to the disease. LB: Can I just ask you, when [they?] said that -- his doctor thought that sunlight -- did he really think that sunlight was good or was Chuck just saying that because he didn't know what else to say? DM: I really have no idea. I would think he didn't know what to say because maybe he was embarrassed. Yeah, you don't know.. But Chuck was a wild child when I met him. And I had seen him several times over, you know, over the years. I mean, I knew him before I had met Will. So, we had gone out several times and were, you know, we were intimate. But that was then the last time that I had seen him, was down in Atlantic City. And then, I think it was a year afterwards is when he had passed. And then, I had lost -- not just me but everybody had lost their job at Allwyn Corporation. And that was in 1988. So, I lost my full-time job and my part-time job the same day. Same day, (laughs) you know? How does that happen? And the part-time job that I had was I was an aerobic instructor. And one of my students at The Body Factory, which, again, is no longer, that was in Whitehall, was -- I don't know if you know here, Rosa Saltern. LB: I remember that name, yeah. DM: Yeah, she's a member of the community. LB: Yeah. DM: But she was a reporter. She was the reporter for the health department before [Ann Boleyzwak?] had taken over. LB: Right. DM: And Rose knew that I was looking for a job and she knew my background, you know, as a nurse. And said there was a job that was open at the Allentown Health Bureau that she thought I would be good at. So, she gave me the information and I went in and, you know, to make a long story short, I had about a three hour interview with [Anne Taylor?], who was the director of the department at that time. I don't know if you remember Anne or not. Wonderful, wonderful woman. And the job started at, like, nine dollars an hour. And when I'd left Allwyn, I was making $17 an hour, so it was kind of a, yeah, pay cut. But I needed a job because, also at the time, I was married to a woman and we had a baby, okay? So, I needed, you know, I needed a job. So, that was in, I believe, late October of 1987, '88, '88. And in January of 1989, I was hired, I was offered the position. So, it went from nine dollars an hour to, like, $12 an hour for it because it was a grant-funded position. And I really didn't know a whole lot about HIV/AIDS. I mean, I knew medical things. I could draw blood. That was one of the major things that -- why they hired me, because I could draw blood. The only downfall I had was that I was not bilingual. And there were two of us that were up for the position. One person was a Hispanic man who was bilingual but didn't know how to draw blood and they needed somebody to draw blood. And then, we had another woman who was bilingual but didn't draw blood. So, I would do (inaudible) and if I needed her to translate, she would translate for me but with counseling -- so that I had the training. I had some basic training there. I had some training from Jose Cruz, who is the medical person for Bethlehem Health Bureau. LB: Yeah, yeah. DM: And then, Linda, was Linda [Kenna?], who was my office mate and she was from Panama. So, again, she was fluent in Spanish. But the two of us actually went to the CDC in Atlanta, Georgia for counseling and training how to, you know, how to actually test for somebody, you know, sit down and counsel somebody, which was a great experience. And then, from there, it just blossomed out into, you know, what I did for 21 years at the health department. LB: Yeah, yeah. DM: Counseling to testing. LB: Was that the only place they were doing testing? DM: Yes. At the time, it was the Allentown Health Bureau, the Bethlehem Health Bureau. We were the two major ones. And then, we kind of branched out. I can't speak for the Bethlehem health department but at least for the Allentown health department, we got -- it took us almost five years to be able to do testing and counseling in Lehigh County prison. And we tested there for, well, for the whole time that I was there then and I think for a year or a year and a half after I left, then the testing went by the wayside because they lost the funding for that. We did all of the testing for the in-house drug and alcohol agencies, Treatment Trends, Halfway House, Blue Mountain House of Hope. There were several others. Livengrin, all of those. So, we would do all of the education and testing for those agencies. We would do in-home testing. Like, if you didn't want to come into the health bureau, if you were going into the health -- the premise back then was if you're going into the health bureau, A, you're either poor or you've got something wrong with you. So, we were kind of looked at as the health police back then, and especially with the gay community. So, if, you know, if you did not -- you wanted to be tested but if you didn't want to be tested in the health bureau, you could call us and I would come to your home or apartment -- LB: Really? DM: -- and do that, yes. And I think they still do that. Not as much as we did back then but I think you can still have that done. LB: Wow. DM: So, they were branching out. Like, you know, I know they testing at your center but most of the agencies that we had been doing testing in, they no longer do testing. I know there's still testing at Treatment Trends. And Treatment Trends and Halfway House really were owned by the same corporation. But they really incorporated everything into one building now, so everything is down at Treatment Trends there on -- right behind you, right next to you, actually. LB: [That's?] right, right. DM: Right next to you. And I guess that they no longer do the testing in the prison but the prison will do testing. And also, back then, too, you know, if somebody did test positive, the prison didn't know what to do. So, they had had a contract with the AIDS Activities Office from Lehigh Valley Hospital. LB: Right. DM: And think it was Dr. [Hoffman-Terry?] would come in, I think, once a month or twice a month and, you know, sit down with inmates who were positive and order blood work and then medication if that was needed. And this was all free because -- nothing's free at the prison, (laughs) but because it's a state-run program that's really funded by the feds, I think part of that was the Ryan White monies, the inmates could get the testing and treatment for free. LB: Yeah. DM: And then, somewhere along the line, something happened and Lehigh Valley Hospital could no longer go into the prison. Again, because Lehigh County prison is supposedly a short-term facility -- you're not supposed to be there more than two years. LB: Right. DM: But, you know, but that's not true with some people. So, if they knew, they could do some treatment there. And if they knew that the inmate was getting out and going home, then they would hook them up with Lehigh Valley Hospital, the AIDS Activities Office. You know, if they were going to another facility, then we have no idea what happened to them at another facility, if it was another state facility or federal facility. So, we don't know. LB: Yeah. When you were seeing those people and testing them, were you seeing a lot of people that were testing positive? DM: Yes, yeah. I have, in the 20 years that I worked in the health department, I would say, wow, I've tested thousands of individuals. I know that I have delivered more than 400 positive tests over that timeframe. And I have lost more than 400 friends to this disease. LB: My gosh. DM: So, it was very, very important for me, because one of the things that I, you know, I had vowed to myself is that, you know, I will never forget this important work and I will continue to do whatever I can. And that's why I'm still on the board of FACT, even though I'm retired. I will still go out and do programs if I need to. LB: Yeah. DM: I do keep up somewhat with some of the things from the CDC but not as much now as, you know, as I was doing when I was doing it then. In fact, one of the, I guess, I don't know if you called it a funny story or just a, you know, a whatever story but we used to do a lot of street outreach. And that's where I got a lot of my starts, was with some of the people who had graduated from Hogar Crea who got into the business. And, again, the majority of people that we were seeing positive back then were in the Hispanic, you know, population. But, like I said, we would do a lot of street outreach and one of the ones that I wanted to do was to do a street outreach with the kids at Central Catholic. And we were going to stand across the street with information and condoms if they wanted it. And the director back then was [Barbara Stater?] and Barbara was a staunch Catholic and her neck veins came out (laughter) when she heard that we were going to -- she said, "You are not going down there!" So, we couldn't do that outreach. But, you know, they knew, the kids knew where they could come to for testing if they wanted to. So, you know, we would test a lot of the kids from the high schools -- LB: Yeah. DM: -- back then. And, I mean, fortunately, if my memory is still somewhat intact, I don't think I had any teenagers from Central Catholic that tested positive or even at the high schools, William Allen or Dieruff. We did have -- we were testing, also, at Cedar Crest College and Muhlenberg College. And we did have several people from Muhlenberg College that had tested positive who were students, so it was a wide variety. LB: And what was the procedure? If somebody tested positive, you know, what was just, anecdotally, what was the procedure of that? DM: Yeah, well, first, you come in for the test. And what we do was, what I did, I mean, all of the counselors and the nurses that were able to do testing had their own way of doing things. But for me, I was preparing everyone for a positive test. I prepared them all for, yeah, because one of the things I'd say to them is that, you know, if this test comes back positive, you know, how were you going to handle that? And if you do, these are some of the things that we need to discuss. And one of those, one of the things is contact tracing. LB: Right. DM: You know, who have you been with? How did you put yourself at risk? And, you know, we need to talk about people or individuals. And I really emphasized the fact that your name will not be used. Your name does not come up. They may know who it is, you know, if I do contact that person. And I say, "Your name was given to me by the state." So, it was a little white lie but I'm keeping that confidentiality (inaudible) because that was my big, big thing, is confidentiality. I mean, there are names of people that are going to go to my grave with me that you may even know, you know? But that was a very big thing for me, was confidentiality. And so, you know, I would prepare, you know, the individual so that when they didn't come back and if it was positive, one of the luxuries that we had -- in fact, then there was only two of us that were able to do positive test results. It was me and Linda at the time when -- that she was with us. So, one of the luxuries that I had was that I can spend as much time with that person that I needed to, if I needed to. And they always came back in the clinic setting. So, you know, the clinic ran from one to four. So, if somebody came in at one o'clock and was positive, I could still be there at five o'clock because the staff knew what I was up against. LB: Yeah. DM: Yeah. That didn't happen a lot but it did. So, I had the luxury of spending as much time with that individual -- you know, we talked, we would cry. I would cry with them, you know, just each one for me was personal. And I still have friends who I know are positive. And I know what it's going to be like when they pass. I mean, they're doing good but, still, you know, they're good friends of mine for years, you know? So, I was thankful for that, that I was able to have as much time with that individual. And, you know, people would come back for testing and would want to see me because they knew how I was, you know? You've been negative all these years and now you're positive, okay? Well, you know the routine, that this is what we're going to do. And they were grateful. I know that I had, that there was -- two brothers. There were twin brothers, Hispanic. And both of them were kind of bad seeds. Did not want to use condoms, you know? They're Hispanic and they're Catholic, so, you know, that's a no-no. But the one brother -- and they would come back, regular. Both of them were negative and, to my knowledge, still are negative. I haven't seen [them, you know?], in years. But I would always talk, more so with the guys, about using condoms, you know? And this is how using condom -- this is when you should use the condom. You know, if you don't know how to use a condom, the best thing for you as a male is to masturbate with it. LB: Yeah. DM: I mean, it's one of the things, you know? That way, you can get used to using it when you have to use it if you want to use it. And the one brother I don't think I ever got through to. I mean, I may have, but the other one started using condoms and he really thanked me. And he liked the work that I did and he went into nursing himself. So, yeah. So, a success story, you know? LB: Yeah. DM: I mean, I've had a lot of success stories but that's one that will always stick with me. LB: Yeah. DM: [You know, with that?]. LB: In the nineteen-eighties, when you were doing this -- and you start to do this at the end of the eighties? So -- DM: Nineteen eighty-nine, officially. LB: And that was still at a time when, you know, the prognosis wasn't very good for somebody if they were positive. What was it like in terms of the medical resources through the hospitals and stuff? I mean, were there doctors that were doing a really great job with dealing with that stuff? Or were there people who were just, like, "I went to this doctor and he wouldn't even let me in the office" or something? What was that -- DM: Yeah, well, when I started at -- I don't know anything prior to me starting at the health department. And at that time, the AIDS activities office had -- really was just up and running for, like, maybe -- I want to say they form in either '87 or '88, I'm not exactly sure. Andrea Geshen, who I gave you the name, really is a great resource because her and Dr. Rhodes are the ones that really started that for people. So, as far as resources back then, I have no idea until I came in. But I do know that there was a time -- it wasn't so much finding a doctor because now we had that going on, we had the AIDS Service Center, where people were going to St. Luke's at that point. And that was with, you know, with Dixie White and Rose Craig starting that. And then, we had Linda Gallagher with the AIDS outreach for the Buddy Program to do things. But one of the things that sticks in my mind is one of the things that was really hard to find was a dentist who would take care of HIV/AIDS patients. So, there were several doctors, dentists in the area that would do that. They would see patients. But there was one dentist who absolutely refused to see patients. And I had reported that individual to the ADA. And I don't think they pulled that person's, you know -- LB: License. DM: -- license. LB: Yeah. DM: But the practice wasn't that great after that because the word got out that, you know, they were not willing to see -- and I think for me, personally, when I see a doctor -- and still, to this day, if I'm seeing a new doctor or if I have to see a specialist, that's one of the questions that I will ask is do you see patients who are HIV-positive or have AIDS? If they say yes, then, good. LB: Yeah. DM: Good. But if you say no, then I'm not going to come back to you because that's just not right. That's downright discrimination, so -- LB: When you had that kind of situation -- and, I mean, you knew a lot of people in the community through the LGBT community in general. You just knew folks and -- were people sharing information about, you know, where to get tested or who to -- what doctors to see? Where they sharing it with each other on a sort of social way? You know, like, did you ever [get?] -- DM: You know, that's hard to answer because, again, I didn't -- you know, up until the time when I was, you know, when I was hired there, like I had mentioned earlier, you know, at least in the LGBT community, we were perceived as the health police. You know, if you're going to go to the health bureau and you test positive, look out, they're going to do this stuff, they're going to do this stuff. But we don't do that stuff, you know? We're not -- that's not what we're about. And I think one thing that helped in the LGBT community was that I'm a gay man and I'm doing this work. LB: Yeah, yeah. DM: And that's why I think a lot of -- you know, the word got out that way. Hey, we have an advocate in the health department. If you want testing, you can go see him. These are the times. That's how it got out. Or if you don't want to go in, call and he'll come to your house or apartment. LB: Yeah. DM: And I would do that. So, I think, to answer your question, that's really how it got -- and then, people were coming in for testing and I didn't see every LGBT person that came in. I can't do that. LB: Yeah. DM: So, I said, okay, "See Linda" or "see Sherry now" or whoever. And you know some of these people. They're good people. They're honest people and they're there for a reason. We need to put a halt to this disease. We need to bring these numbers down. And I think we've done, at least the Allentown Health Bureau has done a good job, as has the Bethlehem Health Bureau. You know, I can't say anything bad about the Bethlehem Health Bureau. I can't say anything bad about any of the organizations. We here in the Lehigh Valley have been blessed to have what we have and how well all these organizations work together. You know, you see St. Luke's Hospital and you see Lehigh Valley Hospital are always at odds with each other. We have to have a bigger hospital, we have to have -- it's all that power struggle. You don't see that in the HIV/AIDS community of workers, that we work together. And that's one of the things that I've always said in my speeches, that I have been proud to work with these individuals and I will continue to say that because it's true. It's true. LB: That's interesting. DM: Yeah. LB: Talk a little bit about how FACT started up and what that was like for you in the beginning. DM: Yeah, well, I had heard about FACT. Occasionally, Will and I would go out to the bars. Not often, but we would go to Candida's and there was talk about an event, money -- you know, a fundraising event that was going to be held out at this gay resort in Stroudsburg, Rainbow Mountain and should we go? And first, we thought -- and, again, this is before I came to the health department. So, well, I don't know that many people yet that have this disease or have died from it. And it was up in the Poconos and, oh, do I want to drive there? LB: Yeah. DM: So, we didn't. We didn't go. We would donate money but we just didn't go to the event. And it wasn't until, well, and nineteen-eighty-five is when FACT was started. And, again, it was started by a group of bar owners and local merchants and people who were -- wanted to do something because their friends were dying. And nothing was being done, really, at that initial point, then, because I don't think the AIDS Activities Office had started yet, any things -- and doctors, again, didn't know, really, still didn't know what was going on. But so, they held an event up at Rainbow Mountain called the FACT Summer Games that was in -- I think it was always held the Sunday after Labor Day in September. So, we didn't go. My first inclination -- my first exposure to that was, again, when I was at the health bureau. And we were invited to go up to do education, the first year. First year. And that would have been in nineteen I want to say nineteen-ninety. Was either ninety or ninety-one when we were invited to have a table up there. Education, that stuff. So, I went up the first year by myself and it was overwhelming. I mean, we had -- there must have been a thousand people there, if not more, back then, in those days. And then, I was invited to join the board of FACT, which I did. And I had taken over for a gentleman by the name of Tom Martin. Was a black man who worked for Morning Call who succumbed to AIDS and he was the education chair. So, because that's what I do, I educate about this, I was asked to take over for Tom, which is what I did. And then, I said maybe we should offer testing up there. So, I think it was nineteen-ninety-two is the first year I went out and offered testing and I was overwhelmed. I mean, I had to turn people away. I was busy from the time we had set up to -- and then, when I came back and I said this is something that we really need to be involved with, with testing -- so, then we were in touch with the previous owners. And I can't remember who they were at that time. It wasn't Walter and [Georgeann?] because they had sold the place by then. But they gave us rooms in the inn to set up for testing and blood drawing and that stuff. And it was non-stop from the time the games started until the games ended, we were testing people. And we had gotten a lot of positives from up there. And, of course, back then -- well, and still, to this day, you still have to come back for your test results, to the health bureau. And I would say, out of all the years that we were testing, we had one person that was positive that did not come back. And they were from New Jersey and, of course, if you have an out of state person that tests, you have to go to the state, our state health department, and they have to send that information to the state health department in Jersey for contact tracing. And whether they found that person, I don't know, to this day. And then, it just got to the point where, really, we were not supposed to be doing testing up there because we are a city health department and it really has to be a county that does it. And when [Rowe?] County was not doing any HIV testing at that point -- I think they are now -- and that's when we have Valley Hospital took over AIDS Activities Office. They decided they [would come up?] and they would do the testing. So, they were still testing until we -- twenty-fifth anniversary, which is our last time up there. LB: Yeah. DM: And then, we went to The Woods for five years and Lehigh Valley Hospital was doing testing there. The health bureau was doing testing but not for HIV. We were doing other STD testing there. So, they were there for five years doing that. And then, of course, we left there after five years. And then, just [held games?], different areas, but we no longer did testing [at any of these sites?], so, yeah. LB: Is that because more places were doing testing? Okay. DM: Yeah. LB: Yeah. DM: Yeah. LB: Testing's faster and easier and -- DM: Yeah, results come back faster now. LB: -- [it's really the?] immediate testing, yeah, (inaudible) DM: Yeah, 20 minutes, you know your results, you know? LB: How long was it before? When you first started, how long would it take? DM: Was two weeks. LB: My gosh. DM: You had to wait two weeks. And let me tell you, that was a killer, even for us, because for me, as a healthcare provider and knowing that I'm safe, I still would get tested on a regular basis. And I'll tell you, it was hell waiting those two weeks. I knew I was okay but you didn't know. LB: Right. DM: But now it's, like I said, now, twenty minutes. Bingo, you know. LB: Yeah. DM: Of course, with the twenty minute test, that's really part of the antibody test. So, if you test positive, [then they?] really need to have the full blood work done and that could take up to two weeks, because you really need that -- it's called a PCR, polymers chain reaction test, to confirm that that first part is positive. So, I still think it's two weeks but I don't know, I would have to check because I don't test anymore. LB: Yeah, yeah. DM: Yeah. LB: Did people used to talk about stigma in terms of if they tested positive and what they -- the kinds of potential discrimination they would face or that people had had to face? DM: Yeah. A lot of different things there. So, if they were in a relationship, if you test positive, you have to tell your partner. "Well, I can't do that. I can't do that." I would say, "Bring your partner in" or, "I -- again, come to where you live. We can sit and talk about this if you want to." There was all kinds of reactions. I mean, that's one. Some people contemplated suicide. And that's another whole set of issues if you have somebody suicidal. So now, I need to refer this person to the suicide prevention group. And one person I know actually did commit suicide. They jumped off the Americus Hotel building. LB: Gosh, really? DM: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they were living there at the time. And, you know, you can't get to everyone. LB: Right. DM: But, yeah, "Let's talk about this. We need to put an end to this." And there were people who were in a relationship where their partner was positive and they actually looked forward to being positive because now they have a bond with that individual. And I remember, with a heterosexual group, there was a woman who was a teacher and she was having an affair with a man who was married. He was positive, the wife was positive, and now she's positive. And she felt we now have something in common. And then, there were people who said, "I know who did this to me and I'm going to go home and I'm going to kill the bastard." LB: Yeah. DM: It runs the gamut with -- it just runs the gamut, you know? And again, I think I attribute my patience to the training that I've had over the years, the people that I've met over the years on how to handle or defuse situations, so -- LB: Well, one of the things that is terrific about these archives is that it's really possible that somebody will be reading the transcript or watching you speak about this 30 years from now. And they may not understand why somebody's reaction to having HIV would cause them to kill themselves because, I mean, even today, there's strong, strong issues. But certainly, in the eighties and early ninties -- could you just explain that for future generations as to why that was such a big deal? DM: Yeah, well, I think early on in the epidemic, it really was a death sentence. You know, from time of diagnosis, you could be dead in six months. And then, with the advent of AZT, which was the first HIV/AIDS med that was out there, people were living longer, not a great length of time, but they were living longer. And then, of course, the side effect from that medication was horrendous. So, like, do I want to go through this or just let me die? But people back then, it was -- death sentence. No way of putting it in any other words. It was death sentence. And I think we've done a pretty good job of educating people. I mean, numbers are down but there are people still getting infected. LB: Sure. DM: And we know that. And I think the mindset for some people is that it still is a death sentence, even though there are people who are 15, 20 years into this disease and they're still alive. And I have two friends of mine that live out of state who have been positive since, I'm going to say, the mid-ninties. Doing fine. LB: Yeah, yeah. DM: You know? There are people that are still -- and I think it's really the education factor and that we have all these medication-- we have more medications for this disease than we have for any other disease. And, yeah, and I think part of that is because when you look at this disease and how it affects immune system, everybody's immune system is different. So, what's going to work for me, may not work for you or may work for somebody else, and it may not work for me. So, we have all these combinations. And now, we have PrEP. You can take something that hopefully will prevent you from getting infected if something happens, that you weren't using protection or the protection you may have used may have failed. And, like I said, there are so many medications but I think the downfall is, and I think we still need to do a better job at educating, is, especially with the younger generation, they say, "Yeah, okay, we have all these meds out here, so I can just take a pill and I'll be fine," you know? Well, and that may be true. But what if you do get infected and what if you get infected with a super strain? Nothing's going to work on you and you will be dead in six months. LB: Yeah, yeah. DM: So, we still need to do -- the education needs to continue. We need to keep educating. And that's why it's important we go to different folks. You know, what I, I've done a presentation for your Silk group with the kids and those kids are just phenomenal. They are phenomenal, phenomenal kids. And they get it. LB: Yeah. DM: You know, they get it. LB: Could you just say a little bit more about AZT? Because I don't think people -- I mean, the whole thing about AZT and how significant it was with regard to making people feel better for a while but really -- what do you think about that? DM: Yeah, well, AZT came out because of ACT UP, the AIDS Coalition to Unleash Power, kind of like what's going on now with things but not with the medication. And normally, it takes about 10 years for a medication to be approved by the FDA. And people were dying. People were dying at large rates. And they said something needs to be done, so they got this medication, they push and I think it took, like, 18 months for it to be approved. I think that was the timeframe. So, people were taking it and it was working but it had some horrible side effects, you know, nausea, diarrhea. You had to take the medication, like, every two hours. But it was the start of something. That was the pebble in the snow that got the snowball rolling where we are now. But I think it gave people some sense of hopefulness that, well, okay, I may feel good today because I'm on the medication. But, again, I have this -- whatever the condition is that's going to be associated with HIV. Because HIV is the infection and AIDS is a disease process and that could be one of 32 different case definitions. So, the AZT may work for some of the conditions but it may not work for all of them. LB: Yeah, yeah. DM: And then, slowly but surely, we got more medications out there. So many that aren't even used anymore, some that are still being used, and some that are being used in combination. LB: Right. DM: And we had a friend, and you know Bobby Burton, who passed away. LB: Yeah. DM: He was, this guy, you wanted to take with you when you were doing your presentation because he would come with a suitcase and he would open up that suitcase and it was full of medications that he was taking on a daily basis. And that was a real eye opener for people because -- and some of the medications you had to take every two hours. Some medications you had to take only in the morning. Some you only had to take at night. Some you had to take with food. Some you had to take on an empty stomach. Some you had to take -- you couldn't take together. Maddening! It was absolutely maddening to see that, so -- and now we've come a long way. No longer are people going around with suitcases full of medications. LB: And some of those medications had extraordinary side effects, like would make -- DM: Yeah, you -- LB: (inaudible) DM: -- wanted to die. LB: -- big or -- DM: Yeah. LB: -- the shoulders be a strange shape or something like that. DM: Yeah, you get the humpback in the back, yeah. You would get ulcers, stomach ulcers. Some people had to be put on ostomy bags because you couldn't have a bottle because of what it was doing to the intestines. Yeah, it was just absolutely -- you really were better off dying back then. Yeah, I mean, I hate saying it that way but -- LB: Well -- DM: -- you know, it is what it is. It was what it was. LB: -- yeah. DM: But, again, we're fortunate now that the side effects on the newer medications are much, much less than they were back then because you didn't have the clinical trials like you have now. So, we know what's going to work. And there still is, in the pipeline, new medications coming down. We have injectable medications, we have sublingual medications, we have things you can drink. LB: Yeah, yeah. Some people have told me about -- and I moved here in 1987 but I didn't know as many people in the community until I started to be involved with the Pride festival, which wasn't until nineteen ninety-three and four. Then I was, Trish and I, were beginning to be involved. But in the eighties, there were a lot of funerals and I think FACT [reported?] people with regard to those funerals. Is that something that you were involved with or was it later? DM: Yeah, well, I came onto the board in, I want to say, nineteen ninety-two . And I guess I was the education chair, that person. I can't think who the person was that was the contingency person, chairperson. And what the contingencies are are applications that case managers in the hospitals who had HIV/AIDS clinics would apply to FACT for some kind of assistance. And we had different categories and we still have different categories, rental assistance, auto repair or help with their insurance, medications back then, dental, certain types of med-surg procedures, utilities, heating, air conditioning, things like that. We had, like, a miscellaneous category, like if a person was moving into, (coughs) excuse me, if a person was moving into an apartment and they needed a bed or they needed an air conditioner or they needed a stove, we would help with that. And then, of course, the funerals. And funerals were very -- it was one of the larger categories back then. And I can honestly say they have not really decreased. This year, so far, up until March, before we got hit with this quarantine and this pandemic, we had supported six funerals. LB: Really? DM: Yeah, six funerals. So, that still is our big -- LB: Yeah. DM: -- yeah, so they were -- you know, like I said, I've lost, at least locally -- that I know more than 400 friends -- to this disease. And some of them you know, because they were on the board of FACT or were heavily involved with FACT. It's still there. There still is a need. And, unfortunately, with the way that things are going, FACT has not been able to hold any fundraisers -- LB: Right. DM: -- because that's how we raise our monies, is through fundraisers. And we just had, we actually had a meeting on -- this past Monday, our first actual meeting in the office. I mean, we had masks and we were social distancing. But we're talking about possible events that we want to hold somewhere down the line. But again, this is all dependent on where we are six months from now and are we going to be back in the second phase of this epidemic, this pandemic? We don't know. We don't know because -- LB: How do you, because you guys at the FACT meeting may have been talking about this, how do you see this in contrast or in similarity to the COVID-19? Because there's some very significant similarities. There's some very significant differences. So, how do you see that? DM: Well, a person can have both. We have suspended all contingency requests at this point. And part of it is because the agencies, AIDS Activities Office, AIDS service center, is not seeing clients on a regular basis. LB: Yeah. DM: So, this is giving us the time to sit back and kind of look at things differently. We, you know, we know that there are -- I mean, anybody can get this, whether it's the COVID-19 or HIV. Well, with HIV, there are specific ways that you're going to get it. But with this COVID, there can be a myriad of ways because we just can talk to each other and one of you can have it and not know it. And when you're looking at signs and symptoms, it's pretty much the same with HIV. You get infected with HIV and it can take up to six months before you can test positive for it, be as little as -- it can show up as early, HIV can show up as early as two weeks after exposure but it usually takes three to six months. With COVID, it can be a couple weeks to a couple months, again, with symptoms, from what I understand. So, they are similar and I think education is important. It infuriates me, it really infuriated me yesterday when I hear that the Pennsylvania state Republican group wants to impeach Governor Wolf. Ah! What are you thinking? And all the derogatory stuff they say about Dr. Levine. What are you people thinking? LB: Yeah, yeah. DM: You know? Don't even get me started on that, Liz. (laughter) LB: Yeah. DM: No. LB: Well -- DM: No. LB: -- you're preaching to the choir, Dave. (laughter) Definitely the case. DM: Yeah. LB: Well, talk about some of the organizations in the Lehigh Valley that FACT has worked with and that you've worked with. I mean, you mentioned doing presentations for the youth group that we have through our community center. But you've been doing that all along for the last 30, 35 years, 40 years. DM: Yeah, yeah, we did a program with the NAACP a few years ago. Hollis Perry was instrumental in getting us to do that. And we're looking at doing something again when we can. I'd done a program for -- I can't think of her last name. She's the high school teacher, chemistry teacher, Rachel -- LB: Zane. DM: Yeah, done programs for her. I have worked -- I did training, I did the HIV training for AIDS Outreach when that organization was still viable, for Linda Gallagher. We have done, we worked in the beginning, in coordination with the Bethlehem Health Bureau. We would do intercity health fairs, like, in the projects in Bethlehem and in Easton -- and in Allentown. LB: How were those things received, when you're going into sort of - it sounded like like it's almost like a cold call. So, you're going into -- talking to people. What do you think, the response? DM: We have always been received very well. Like I said, we have bilingual people on our staff and they have [that?] on their staff, so -- and we offer testing in all these things that we used to go into. So, they were received very well. And then, of course, a lot of these events were grant funded. And then, money started to dry up, so we were no longer able to do that but we, you know, still be able to get the word out. We did, well, we were involved with Pride. FACT is involved with Pride, because we do the bingo, up until last year. (laughs) We can't do bingo this year. And I've done, well, not just me, people on the board of FACT, we are involved with Pete Schweyer and Mike Schlossberg., when they do their senior fest. LB: State representatives, yeah. DM: The state representatives, yeah. Very well received. And some of the older people, one says, "Well" -- and we have condoms out -- you know, "Well, I don't need these but can I take some for my grandson or my granddaughter?" I said, (laughter) "Take all you want," yeah. Yeah, we had been -- I think that FACT has been received very well in the community. I know when I go out to, I usually go to Palm Springs in the fall, (clears throat) excuse me, and I'll be going out, hopefully, again in November. But the organization out there is Desert AIDS Project. I don't know if you ever heard of them. I think I'd given Adrian some information on them. That is an unbelievable organization. It's like a city in itself. They took over, [was?] quite a few years ago, they took over the old VA hospital. And this place is like a compound. They have their own medical department in there, they can do testing there, they can do educational things. They have their own pharmacy. They have an area that's behind the major building that are apartment houses, complexes, just for HIV people, HIV/AIDS people. And they can live there, stay there until they pass. And I go out and I take information out about FACT and things and then they give me stuff. So, every year I go out, I try to pay a visit and say, hey, how's it going? LB: Great. DM: But, yeah, and like I said early on in the conversation, we're fortunate that we have what we have in the Lehigh Valley for people with HIV and AIDS. There are areas that have nothing. LB: Right, right. DM: I mean, you go [out?] to Carbon County, you go to Monroe County, they don't have that stuff there like we have here. LB: Yeah, imagine what that would have been like in the '80s and '90s, too. I mean, it wasn't just -- it was adversarial in -- DM: Yeah. LB: -- so, I think we have been lucky here. And a lot of that has to do with the kind of organization that you were doing and FACT was doing and the information shared (inaudible) doing. Did you used to go to the Pride festival and set up and do testing there or through the health department? Or how did that -- DM: No, no, we were not -- initially, we were not welcomed, initially. For some reason, we were not welcome. Again, the health police. And I think it was when -- I don't know who the original organizers were. That I don't know. But I think it was when Shawn and Rob Hopkins were part of that board, when they took over, and that's when we were invited to come and do testing. And that's when we were on the other side of Cedar Beach Lake there, on Linden Street. LB: Yeah, that was in two-thousand, when that began to change. I mean, it was sort of the whole organization changed over to a different model, -- DM: Yeah, but -- LB: -- [started?] -- DM: -- we did quite well, you know, lot of testing, lot of information, lot of condoms, you know? LB: Yeah, yeah, yeah. DM: But, yeah. LB: Yeah. DM: And then, so we've been involved ever since. And then, of course, the health bureau will still do some testing. They don't do the HIV tests, they don't do the STD testing. And then, Lehigh Valley will do the HIV testing and that, so we've got the bases covered. It would be nice to get the Bethlehem Health Bureau involved somehow. LB: Yeah, yeah. What do you think about PrEP and PEP? DM: I think it's needed. I'm okay with it. I think it needs to be pushed a little more. And as long as they're getting the information out about both of them, I think that's what's important. And then, to be -- the people who really want it, you know, then taking it, yeah. LB: Yeah, yeah. I just read a thing that said that in other countries, a year's course of PEP or PrEP costs about twenty-two dollars and in the United States, costs two-thousand dollars. DM: That's insane. But, yeah, [it does?] -- LB: And then, about a million people really need a prescription in the United States. And if that happened, it would be a significant end to the spreading of -- I mean, it could stop AIDS. It could really stop HIV -- DM: Yeah. LB: -- for people with -- and I think that's a historical thing. I hope that thirty years from now, people are, like, whoa, what do you mean? You can get over a counter, you know? DM: Oh, yeah. Yeah, one of the things that ticks me off is this statement that Trump is saying that, "Oh, now we have a vaccine, we're going to clear this," yeah. LB: And mention that for history. DM: Yeah. LB: Please just talk about that for one minute, to say what the current president said about that and what that meant. DM: Yeah, but, you know, what I've read is that -- well, he had made a statement months ago that he was going to have a cure for AIDS during his presidency. And then, just the other day, he made the statement that there's a vast amount of scientists who are extremely knowledgeable and that they have developed a vaccine that will cure AIDS and that there will be more information about this to follow. And I have heard nothing, I have seen nothing, it's a pipe dream from him. I mean, I wish it was true. I mean -- LB: Sure. DM: -- I really do wish it was true but -- and we know about Donald Trump, you know? Enough said about him. (laughs) LB: I want people in the future to know our concerns today about that and it certainly has an impact on COVID-19 -- DM: Yeah. LB: -- [and how through all?] -- I mean, everybody that I'm interviewing right now who is talking about their experiences with HIV in the nineteen-eighties and nineties is my age or older. You know, we're not too -- well, maybe Nan's a little bit younger. But, I mean, it's all people in their sixties or older and yeah, we were in our twenties and thirties when this stuff was first happening. DM: Yeah, yeah, we were, yeah. LB: Well, you know. DM: And I'm in my seventies. (laughs) LB: [Sure?], and Trish is too. So, all of our circumstances now, based on COVID, is we're really at risk. Just because we're over 60, we're really at risk. So, it's interesting that the folks that we know, I think, have been so careful about it because, as we #NotOurFirstVirus -- DM: Yeah. LB: -- we're just not really interested in taking the kinds of chances that people who haven't seen a devastating virus -- DM: Yeah. LB: -- would take. We know what it could do and [I interviewed?] somebody recently who said, "My biggest fear is that I would get this and give it to someone else." DM: Yeah, same here. LB: And they had the same fear about HIV, that they would give it to someone else, that they would give it to a group of people. And so, they -- that was the thing that they thought they could live with the least, yeah. DM: Yeah. LB: I'm sure you came across people that, the way that you were describing, telling people's partners and stuff like that, it's that kind of (inaudible) DM: Yeah. LB: Yeah. DM: Yeah. LB: Let's see, I think we've got about ten minutes left, so, in our ninety-minute interview. So, is there anything you really want to be sure that people understand about this time, that time, and the impact that it had on you? In some ways, it kind of shaped your life. DM: Yeah, I think, excuse me, (clears throat) one thing that I remember and one of the -- and I took as much training as I was able to when I was working for the health department. And I think the major thing for me was all of the death and dying. And I was in a training in Philadelphia and one of the instructors was a doctor in psychology. And he had said back then that, with the grieving process and the death processes that, at that time, and it may have changed -- is that it takes approximately two years for the average person to get over a death. And we were losing people on a daily basis that -- and especially people that we knew. LB: Yeah. DM: So, you know, I'm still grieving for some people. LB: Right. DM: And I think that was when -- and then, he died and that was really, you know, little difficult for me, too. LB: Will. You mean Will? DM: No, no, no, no, the teacher -- LB: Oh, I see. DM: -- who said that, yeah, the professor. Yeah, and I'm just dealing with HIV -- LB: (inaudible) DM: -- with that, yeah. LB: Sorry, I misunderstood. But what you're talking about is that the teacher was saying everybody was seeing deaths every day and -- DM: Yeah. LB: -- grieving process takes two years. I see, I understand, yeah. DM: Yeah, yeah. So, you may get over one person but now there's somebody else in line. And, again, and it's just with that. And then, you have people that didn't have HIV and AIDS, family members or friends that died from something else, whether it was a car accident or cancer or whatever. You add that to the mix. LB: Right. DM: You know? And then, for me, it still is difficult today and it'll be six years in September that Will has passed. LB: Six years. DM: It's still difficult for me. LB: Course. DM: You know? And I think with what we're looking at now, and I think it's really significantly different with death now, with this, is that people could not say goodbye to -- there could not be a proper service or burial. And that's what is just so horrendous about this disease. LB: Yeah. DM: You know? How do you get over that? You don't. LB: Right. DM: I mean, personally, I don't know anybody that has died from COVID-19. But you're seeing it. I mean, those initial pictures of them putting bodies in refrigerated trucks was, like, oh, my God! Those poor people! And then, hearing stories from people that couldn't say goodbye to their loved ones. And they still can't do anything, for the most part, that that's just -- I think the death of it all is really what's the important part. And then, I think the knowledge and the training that still needs to continue to happen, you know? AIDS hasn't gone away like this COVID-19 hasn't gone away. People are still getting infected, people are still dying with both. And we just need to be vigil-- we need to be aware. We need to keep practicing safe whatever it is, safe sex, safe businessing, safe whatever, and educating one another. LB: Right. DM: And trying to educate those individuals who are defiant. "Well, why the hell do I need to wear a mask, what I'm doing?" Or "why do I need to wash my hands?" But, well, I've been in healthcare since I'm fifteen years old. Like I said, I'm seventy-seven years old now. I still wash my hands, you know? Yeah, I'm not crazy about wearing a mask but I do. LB: Right. DM: I'm following the protocols. At least I'm trying to. So, I think just the educational component is still the major goal, is we need to keep educating, we need to keep educating, we need to bring people to the realization that this is real. LB: Right. DM: This isn't a fairy tale that we're going to wake up tomorrow morning and it's all going to be peaches and cream, because it's not. And I said earlier that I made a vow to my friends that I will never give up. And I won't. I end my presentations, I've always ended my presentations or talks with the last line from the movie Longtime Companion, where Will is walking on the beach in Fire Island and he says, "All I want is a cure and my friends back." LB: Yeah. DM: I can't end any better than that. LB: Yeah. Yeah, that's significant. DM: Yeah. LB: I think we're just about to the end and I just wanted to say one thing in case it wasn't clear when you were talking about it but Rachel Zane is the facilitator and advisor for the Gay-Straight Alliance at the high school, at -- DM: [Cool?]. LB: -- Allen, just so that that's on -- DM: Okay. LB: -- [information?], so that people can understand that you've been going into public schools to do some really significant programs. And she's a great resource to hook people up. I think the work that you've been doing, yeah, now you've had a lifetime of work helping people in this community. It's really been a significant thing -- DM: Yeah. LB: (inaudible) [lives?]. It's a big deal. DM: I, yeah -- LB: Yeah. DM: -- I really enjoyed my twenty, twenty-one, twenty-plus years at the Allentown Health Bureau because I've met some wonderful people. I love working with the incarcerated population. I loved working with the people in recovery and treatment. I loved working with the LGBT community. I loved working with high school, middle school, and grade school kids, especially the grade school kids, because you have to be careful what you're saying. LB: Yeah. DM: So, I learned in one of my trainings, for me, when I'm dealing with HIV and AIDS -- is to -- I would go into the classroom and I would put a big circle on the chalkboard and then a smaller circle in the middle of that, almost like a bullseye. And in the middle of that smaller circle, I would write the word AIDS. So, what I do then is I look at the class, to the kids, and I say, "When you look at the word AIDS, what does that mean to you?" So, they would throw back things to me and I would put it in the bigger part of the circle. And that's what I could talk about because they're the ones -- LB: [They were asking, right?]. DM: -- that were asking me. LB: Yeah. DM: It isn't a program that I need to take and say, okay, this is what we're going to do, this is what -- I mean, the teacher was aware of what I was going to do, so I was able to do that. LB: Yeah, yeah. DM: Yeah, and that was significant for the kids and they loved it. The kids loved it. LB: Yeah, yeah. Well, before we are done with this, we've got a couple minutes, want you to show your little FACT pin really good to the lens. There we go. I love that. I have one of those, too. DM: Yeah, that's the original one. LB: Yeah, yeah. And your t-shirt [is a?] -- there you go, there you go. I think that FACT logo is great. It'll live on through history -- DM: Yeah. LB: -- and through this video, among other things. DM: Yeah. (laughs) LB: Thanks so much. I'm going to turn the -- thank you so much for doing this, Dave, you've been terrific. DM: Thank you for asking me. LB: I'm going to turn off the recorder and just want to tell you a couple of things after we're done. But I just want to remind you again that when you get the transcript of this, you'll be able to change things. If you think, oh, that's not that person's name, you can change or delete it or whatever you want to do. This has been terrific. I really, really appreciate it and the whole community does. So, I'm going to turn off the recording now. END OF AUDIO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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01:28:17
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David Moyer, June 18, 2020
Description
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David Moyer talks about the AIDS epidemic in the Lehigh Valley of Pennsylvania. He focuses on his work as a nurse in the Allentown Health Department; shares about local AIDS education, testing, and the experience of notifying people of positive tests; the formation of Fighting AIDS Continuously Together (FACT); and how HIV/AIDS compares to COVID-19.
Identifier
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PH40_16
Subject
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AIDS (Disease)
Date
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2020-06-18
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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https://lgbt.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/73e989999007b94d1372c4013af5aed3.png
7c33c07be0c05cc1996b27411d1bee3f
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Title
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Stories from LGBT Older Adults in the Lehigh Valley
Description
An account of the resource
This collection began in 2019 with the initial goal of collecting ten oral histories from older adult LGBT people in the Lehigh Valley. Topics explored include the childhood experiences of LGBT people, experiences within educational and religious institutions, coming out stories, understanding of the gay liberation movement (1960-1980s), experience of the early years of the AIDS epidemic and AIDS activism (1980s-present), and experience with the fight for marriage equality. The project has been a collaborative effort among faculty and librarians from Cedar Crest College, Lehigh University, Moravian College, Muhlenberg College, and members of the local community, under the direction of Dr. Mary Foltz, Associate Professor of English at Lehigh University and Co-Director of the South Side Initiative. <br /><br /><em> The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.</em>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
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Mary Foltz
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Don Kohn
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Viewer)
https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LGBT-09.xml
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PFLAG
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contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka
5.4 May 11, 2020 Don Kohn, May 11, 2020 LGBT-09 01:37:24 LVLGBT Stories from LGBT Older Adults in the Lehigh Valley Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg PFLAG GLAAD MCCLV Don Kohn Mary Foltz video/mp4 KohnDon_20200511_Final_video.mp4 1.0:|19(6)|52(8)|83(10)|104(3)|123(9)|140(7)|155(2)|170(16)|189(10)|210(9)|225(3)|242(14)|261(2)|278(7)|295(17)|310(10)|333(14)|350(11)|371(2)|390(4)|411(4)|432(5)|453(7)|472(2)|489(8)|510(2)|529(15)|552(10)|569(14)|588(11)|609(4)|628(6)|647(11)|664(13)|685(10)|706(6)|725(17)|744(10)|765(2)|782(13)|803(8)|820(17)|839(9)|860(11)|881(7)|900(3)|921(3)|942(9)|963(7)|982(3)|999(7)|1018(10)|1039(10)|1058(15)|1077(12)|1096(5)|1113(7)|1132(7)|1151(16)|1168(15)|1185(13)|1208(3)|1227(9)|1252(3)|1271(8)|1286(5)|1305(9)|1322(6)|1343(13)|1362(6)|1381(13)|1400(9)|1419(9)|1442(3)|1459(12)|1476(11)|1493(5)|1512(8)|1531(13)|1548(8)|1571(3)|1588(12)|1609(8)|1626(10)|1647(8)|1664(17)|1683(15)|1698(15)|1717(3)|1734(7)|1757(15)|1776(2)|1797(3)|1828(2)|1861(4)|1888(5)|1921(2)|1930(17) 0 YouTube video < ; iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/XrrqqvV0Eco?rel=0" width="560" height="315" frameborder="0"> ; < ; /iframe> ; 8 Interview Introduction MARY FOLTZ: So my name is Mary Foltz, and I’m here with Don Kohn to talk about his life and experiences in LGBT organizations in the Lehigh Valley. This is a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. Our project has funding from the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium. We are meeting on May 11th, 2020, and we’re conducting this interview via Zoom. So Don, thank you so much for your willingness to speak to me today. I’m just so thrilled that you’re willing to share your story. And to start, before we jump into the interview, would you be willing to state your full name and spell it for me?
 ; 0 169 Early Years / Family MF: Oh sure, I’d be happy to. Would you tell me a little bit about the early years of your life?
 ; 
 ; DK: I was raised in Omaha, Nebraska. I had two brothers, a mother and father. I left high school and came out to Lehigh University, where I graduated, and later on raised a daughter -- not a whole family, just that. Melinda was raised in New Jersey, went to Trenton State, until the end of our junior year, where we got married, and she transferred to Moravian. Okay. 0 403 Developed Understanding of Diversity MF: When did you develop your understanding of embracing diversity?
 ; 
 ; DK: I don’t know. I went -- my high school was very diverse. When I entered into the realm of GLBT people, and that I know I went back and questioned, what did I think, and how did I treat people? Gee, was that person that I knew -- I had a friend at work, and was he gay? And did I greet him right? It evolved. It evolved from a belief probably that people were all the same. As far as GLBT people, I probably didn’t know much about it. Again, it evolved. So -- that’s right, there was someone in my adult life before we had our daughter, we had a friend who had a child. And the child’s nanny was a gay man. 0 682 Moving to the Lehigh Valley / Schooling / Job MF: Well, I will be curious about, if we move on a little bit, what it was like for you to move to the Lehigh Valley and to attend Lehigh University. What was that move like for you?
 ; 
 ; DK: Again, it’s so long ago. I can remember I was -- on the football team, I was one of the helpers, I don’t think (inaudible) it called. Standing in the middle of the field, at that time Lehigh’s Goodman Field was nothing except one building and a practice field. There was nothing else out there (inaudible) and saying, how did I get this far away from home? I don’t know. I guess I never looked back that much. I was back two summers, and that was it. Again, the world here is different, and the people were more -- I don’t know. I can’t remember back that far to give you a good answer. 0 1307 Daughter Coming Out / Joining PFLAG MF: So I know that one of the impetus for joining PFLAG was your daughter. So could you describe a little bit about how she came out to you, and how you felt about the coming out process?
 ; 
 ; DK: This is interesting, because if Melinda was here, you’d get two different answers. Sally had a best friend, who they did everything together, whatever. And they were in a play together, where her friend and her brother had the leads, and Sally had a supporting role. And I was backstage afterwards. GLAAD ; Liz Bradbury ; PFLAG ; Trish Sullivan 0 2075 How PFLAG Helps Families MF: Maybe we could talk a little bit about, what kinds of activities did PFLAG organize for families? And what kinds of events were you organizing in the early years of your presidency?
 ; 
 ; DK: Let me say this, I think it’s important to note, right now in the Lehigh Valley, there’s a lot of acceptance. We really are out of business, PFLAG is, because -- you could tell in the early days, we get a phone call -- Melinda and I had the help line. That was another thing we did when this woman transitioned out and went to California. While I wasn’t president, we took on the help line. And we just stopped that last year. Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center ; MCCLV ; PFLAG 0 2745 PFLAG's Strategies for Parents / Advocacy 
 ; MF: Well, I’m curious, you described -- you said, “We got them through it.” And I’m wondering if you could describe how. What strategies did PFLAG use to help parents that were really struggling to accept their children? How did you help people work through their fears?
 ; 
 ; DK: Melinda was better at that than I am. Although when she was still working and I was here consulting, I’d get the phone calls, or at the meetings. And I think the meetings -- the phone calls, it was just talking through it, and inviting them to the meeting. Reassuring them that they didn’t do anything wrong. Reassuring that their child was still the same person they knew before. PFLAG 0 3340 PFLAG's Involvement w/ Freedom to Marry MF: Well, so I’m wondering if maybe -- you’ve mentioned the Freedom to Marry events a few times. And I’m wondering if you could talk a little bit more about PFLAG’s work on that particular political issue. How was PFLAG involved with the Freedom to Marry movement?
 ; 
 ; DK: Well, PFLAG nationally was certainly involved. Locally, again, we, as all other organizations in the area, supported that. Again, we went to the Freedom to Marry evening event. It wasn’t necessarily PFLAG support, but on the Friday before the event, there was a march on the Lehigh County Courthouse, where people went in to try to get marriage licenses, unsuccessfully. They took their money, though. Anti-Discrimination Law ; Freedom to Marry ; The Morning Call 0 3742 How LGBT Organizations Work Together in the Lehigh Valley MF: Well, so I have two different sort of ideas for moving forward. But I want to ask the sort of larger question. Looking back on all of your work in PFLAG, how do you think PFLAG as an organization has impacted the Lehigh Valley?
 ; 
 ; DK: Let me just say, not everything was PFLAG, okay? You know, my support of Renaissance wasn’t necessarily PFLAG, some of it was personal. I’m looking at something else we have in front of us. When MCC had their Christmas party and they needed a Santa Claus, guess who volunteered? You know, was that PFLAG? No. MCCLV ; PFLAG 0 4410 How LGBT Organizations Changed the Lehigh Valley MF: Well, we’re getting towards the end of our ninety minutes, and I have two questions that I’m thinking of. One is one I asked earlier, but I didn’t ask it well. This is sort of a historical question. What do you think PFLAG -- but then the other organizations, MCCLV, Lehigh Valley, Renaissance -- what kind of impact do you feel those organizations have made on the Lehigh Valley in their early years, when we’re thinking historically about your early work in PFLAG? How did those organizations together change the Lehigh Valley?
 ; 
 ; DK: Well, like I said, the Lehigh Valley over the twenty years has changed from not as accepting to a pretty accepting community. 0 4706 PFLAG's Attendance Decreasing MF: Okay. I want to return to something that you talked about sort of briefly before. But you talk about a sort of change in the need for PFLAG, that the shift in Lehigh Valley has decreased the membership and attendance at meetings for PFLAG. I’m wondering if you could reflect a little bit on that transition. From a really active organization to our current sort of moment, why do you think PFLAG’s attendance sort of declined and the interest in the organization kind of declined a bit?
 ; 
 ; DK: Well, there obviously -- again, there’s much more acceptance today than there was then. Why? I don’t know. You know, I’m an engineer, I don’t know why. 0 4967 Personal Reflection on PFLAG MF: How has being involved in PFLAG mattered to you personally, or mattered to you as a father and as a spouse? How have you personally been impacted by your years of work in multiple organizations, you know, centrally with PFLAG?
 ; 
 ; DK: I mean, my daughter thinks we’re more gay than she is, because we’re more involved. Yeah. Let me put it this way. No offense to the Jewish religion or Jewish people, but we were involved with the synagogue for many years -- not a lot, we started late, when my daughter was Sunday school age. 0 MovingImage Don Kohn talks about his involvement with the Eastern PA chapter of Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG). MARY FOLTZ:So my name is Mary Foltz, and I'm here with Don Kohn to talk about his life and experiences in LGBT organizations in the Lehigh Valley. This is a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. Our project has funding from the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium. We are meeting on May 11th, 2020, and we're conducting this interview via Zoom. So Don, thank you so much for your willingness to speak to me today. I'm just so thrilled that you're willing to share your story. And to start, before we jump into the interview, would you be willing to state your full name and spell it for me? DON KOHN:Full name, Donald Jerry Kohn, K-O-H-N. I think Donald and Jerry don't need to be spelled, but Kohn, K-O-H-N. MF:Thank you. Could you please share your birth date? DK:June 4th, 1947. MF:And we had a phone conversation about consent for this interview, but I'll just ask you a few questions here now for verbal consent. Do you consent to this interview today? DK:Yes. MF:Do you consent to this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable formats? DK:Yes. MF:Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats, including films, articles, websites, presentations, and other formats that might appear in the future? DK:Yes. MF:And do you understand that you'll have thirty days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review the interview and identify parts that you'd want to delete or withdraw from the project? DK:Yes. MF:Wonderful. Okay. Now let's move into the interview part. Today I want to start with a question about your childhood. Would you tell me about your early years -- DK:I just want to add something that we discussed earlier. MF:Go ahead. DK:My wife and I did most of -- my wife, Melinda, did most of this together. Most of the stories I tell of that are for both of us, but I did want to give a little background and answer some of your questions and some of the discussion from her point of view also. Okay? MF:Wonderful. I'll be happy to hear about the work that you've done together. DK:You wanted to know her -- starting with my -- ask your question again. MF:Oh sure, I'd be happy to. Would you tell me a little bit about the early years of your life? DK:I was raised in Omaha, Nebraska. I had two brothers, a mother and father. I left high school and came out to Lehigh University, where I graduated, and later on raised a daughter -- not a whole family, just that. Melinda was raised in New Jersey, went to Trenton State, until the end of our junior year, where we got married, and she transferred to Moravian. Okay. MF:What was it like to grow up in Omaha, Nebraska? DK:You know, I don't know that it was any different. I mean, as a youth, you just know what's around you. You don't know there's a difference between Nebraska, Pennsylvania, New Jersey. You don't know that. In high school, you probably still don't know it. When I moved from, at the advice of my older brothers, and came out East, I realized, yes, there's a big difference. Midwestern towns, particularly Omaha at the time, was a one-horse town. There were only Italian or steak houses for restaurants. There wasn't a lot of cultures. There wasn't a lot of interests like there is here. There's no shore, there's no Poconos. You know, it's a different world. It's changed somewhat, I'm sure, in the fifty-some years. But at that time, it was different. MF:Could you talk a little bit about your family and the family dynamic? What was it like growing up in your family? DK:My older brothers were much older. They always treated me as the little brother. My parents were -- my dad was very forceful. Not abusive, but forceful. And I have to look back and probably think that my father was not accepting of diversity, we'll say it that nice way. Okay? MF:I have a question about that, but when you say not accepting of diversity, what, in particular, are you thinking about? Was he sort of like a small-town guy, sort of concerned about outsiders in your community? DK:I'm not sure I can even categorize it. It's just the way he spoke, the way he commented about different people, the way people's color, people of different nationalities, et cetera, over the years. And some of that may have been tainted, or an impression I got later on when I was older and recognized and my own feelings about diversity versus theirs, were different from theirs. He wasn't an overt racist person, it's just the kind of person that you run into who is quiet, but you can tell sometimes they're not appreciating other people. MF:When did you develop your understanding of embracing diversity? DK:I don't know. I went -- my high school was very diverse. When I entered into the realm of GLBT people, and that I know I went back and questioned, what did I think, and how did I treat people? Gee, was that person that I knew -- I had a friend at work, and was he gay? And did I greet him right? It evolved. It evolved from a belief probably that people were all the same. As far as GLBT people, I probably didn't know much about it. Again, it evolved. So -- that's right, there was someone in my adult life before we had our daughter, we had a friend who had a child. And the child's nanny was a gay man. And I guess at that point, I made a decision to treat that person as a person. I won't say norm, but not be concerned with his sexual orientation. Like I said, that all evolved. So the best way to describe my journey, if you call it a journey, is my acceptance of diversity has gotten far beyond just people of color, skin colors or religion, but just in the general accepting of people who are different, and who have different concepts of what I think of, or what I was taught, or what I grew up as. By the way, I think my father was very, this is how he thinks, and therefore, the world around him should think the same way, okay? So maybe that's coming back. So it's a journey. And I'll also say this ; if -- my wife was one of the early people who work in industry, and they did not like to be called, "Girl." My dad's attitude was, "I'm going to call them 'girl,' it doesn't bother me." My attitude's always been, if I put my foot in my mouth and say the wrong thing and someone corrects me, and there was someone who was very good at correcting me on those issues with GLBT people, then the difference is not that I said it in the first place, but that I ever say it again. That I learn from it. So yeah, it's a journey, and I won't say that. I'm not still on it. I still wonder whether, sometimes thoughts creep up from the old days, that I'm, gee, that's wrong, I shouldn't think that. It's repressed. So, yeah, okay. MF:You describe this kind of evolution of your thinking about diversity. I'm wondering, did that occur in part with your move East and out to Lehigh University? DK:I don't know. You know, it's a long time ago. Like I said, my high school was very diverse, from both skin color, religion, ethnic background, financial. We had some very poor people, and we had some very wealthy people at the school. I guess I don't know if it ever started, like I said, so I can't put a thing and say, this is the day that somebody hit me over the head and said, "Diversity's good." All right? Maybe it was in something inherent in me that I just definitely don't see, striking differences in people, okay? Maybe it's a want to -- like the Freedom to Marry, to say, gee, that's wrong thinking. I know I should change it. I don't know. I don't know. MF:Well, I will be curious about, if we move on a little bit, what it was like for you to move to the Lehigh Valley and to attend Lehigh University. What was that move like for you? DK:Again, it's so long ago. I can remember I was -- on the football team, I was one of the helpers, I don't think (inaudible) it called. Standing in the middle of the field, at that time Lehigh's Goodman Field was nothing except one building and a practice field. There was nothing else out there (inaudible) and saying, how did I get this far away from home? I don't know. I guess I never looked back that much. I was back two summers, and that was it. Again, the world here is different, and the people were more -- I don't know. I can't remember back that far to give you a good answer. MF:Describe for me a little bit about your course of study at Lehigh, and the early years of your career here in The Valley. DK:I graduated in chemical engineering. My grades started bad, worked progressively up to the senior year. I didn't do all that bad at the end. I went to work for an insurance company as a fire protection engineer, did that for about three years, and then I went to work for Pennsylvania Power and Light, in the design area of fire protection, office buildings, power plants. And then about '95, I went on private consulting. I go with my wife, she graduated from Muhlenberg with a degree in mathematics. Went to work for -- Burroughs, we were down in Philadelphia, she went to work for the Burroughs Company, in computers. When I moved up here, she went to work for Bell Labs and became one of their computer experts, had supervised people. And the last ten years -- she retired many years ago -- last few years ago, she was an omnibus person, taking care of people's problems. So that helped with our diversity concept also. MF:Well, since you talked a little bit about Melinda, how did the two of you meet? DK:Oh, yes. Remember, because you said you went to Lehigh -- Lehigh was all men back in the sixties. So we had a mixer one day at the Jewish Community Center/Synagogue, which was off the corner of the campus, which is now a campus-owned building, all right. Packer Avenue and the street that goes up towards the alumni, the main street that comes from town -- it's right there. Okay. So interestingly enough, I saw this gal I wanted to ask to dance. I walked up to her, and two seconds before I got to her, somebody else took her away. (laughs) And who was behind her, but Melinda. And it progressed from there. MF:What did you like about Melinda in the first years that you were dating? DK:Same thing I still do, how about that? It's been fifty-two years, at the end of the month. I'd have several steady girlfriends, and, you know, every time each one of them had a quality I liked, but obviously didn't have all the qualities I liked, Melinda seemed to have all the qualities I liked. As far as her point of view, I was a tall Jewish boy. (laughs) Melinda's tall. Okay. MF:Do you want to describe what some of those qualities were? DK:No, just let's go on. MF:Okay. DK:You know, it's so ingrained in me, I'm not sure I could pick them out anymore. You know, I guess many couples split apart and then divorce, we've gotten sort of together. And there are some things she's better at than I am, things I'm better at than she is. Basically, yeah, I just -- there's too -- you know, we only have a certain amount of time. You don't want me to start listing all of her good qualities. We won't get on to the other things. Okay? MF:That makes sense. She sounds wonderful. Why don't we talk a little bit about -- DK:That was the one or two prejudices that I do have, and that's (inaudible). MF:Why don't we talk a little bit about the early years of your marriage, because I know we'll be working up to your work with PFLAG. But what were the early years of your marriage like working and living in the Lehigh Valley? DK:Well, first of all, we spent three and a half years in Philadelphia. Then we came to Lehigh Valley, and I guess it was work. We had a house, and did things around the house, and remodeled a house or two. It's nothing out of the ordinary, nothing different, yeah. Centered around work. MF:Talk to me a little bit about building your family. DK:I guess we made a decision, as many people do right now, saying, do we really want to bring a kid into this world, with all the things going on? We both had our careers, we were both working, we were both happy. And whatever, it's hard to go back -- you're asking me to go back so far in time. But we finally decided that when one of us wanted a child, we would have one, and we did. So about nine years after we were married, we had a baby. And that was Sally. I'm sorry if you hear the geese in the background. I live in the country. MF:That's fine. The geese aren't bothering the sound at all. DK:Good. MF:Describe for me what it was like your first years as a father for Sally. DK:It's interesting. Melinda had a friend who had six kids. And we went through a lot of -- because Melinda worked -- we went through a lot of childcare concepts. And I think when we -- we had a full-time person taking care of her. And when the person couldn't make it, we defaulted to taking her over to this other woman, okay? And she only liked babies, although she had six kids. She loved taking care of babies. And she ultimately had to -- and so I worried that I would only like Sally as a baby. I also worried that having a full-time housekeeper, I'd miss the important things. Well, let me say other than the teenage years, I enjoyed all the years. For things like, you know, learning to crawl ; she was crawling -- or standing up, that's right. I was laying on the floor, and she came to me, crawled over to me, and started to crawl over the top of me, and then stood up. So I got to see her stand up first. We had a family Thanksgiving, I think it was, and she was crawling around from family member to family member, when she stood up and walked across the room. And we all said, "Did you just do that?" So it was an exciting time. While both Melinda and I worked, we came to not work a lot of overtime, so that we were home with Sally. And we did a lot of things on the weekends that you do with kids, and stuff like that. So it was an enjoyable time. MF:What was Sally like as a child? DK:A lot of fun. Like I said, teenagers -- I don't even know if I want to talk about those. And go on the record. But as a child, she was a lot of fun. She was cute, you know, I can remember her -- try to take a picture of her, you know, she had to walk up and see the camera, things like that. And probably around -- now, understand Melinda was into computers, and that was her business. So we got the personal computer very early. So Sally really grew up on computers. When she was in high school, she was teaching the teachers about computers, that same thing, so-- MF:So I know that one of the impetus for joining PFLAG was your daughter. So could you describe a little bit about how she came out to you, and how you felt about the coming out process? DK:This is interesting, because if Melinda was here, you'd get two different answers. Sally had a best friend, who they did everything together, whatever. And they were in a play together, where her friend and her brother had the leads, and Sally had a supporting role. And I was backstage afterwards. And it was something about the way that she looked at this partner -- and I want to leave the partner's name out, because I'm not sure where her parents -- they're -- that was Sally's first partner. And up to the time they split, her parents weren't supportive, very supportive. So I won't mention names. I said, there must be something more to this. Well, they were graduating high school, and as a graduation present, we were going to send them to New York to see a play. The other gal's parents asked a question, and they thought it wouldn't be a problem, and they told them. And the other parents slammed down and said, "You're not going anywhere without a chaperone," da da da da da da, okay. Now here's where the difference comes. I believe she waited until she got home. Melinda thinks she called on her cell phone and told us, thinking we wouldn't have a problem, and we didn't. Melinda thought she had a target on her back, okay, and was very concerned from that standpoint. And now here comes Liz and Trish, and PFLAG, somewhere in there, it might have been a year afterwards. But I accepted my daughter fully, and my wife accepted her fully. But here comes the education part of it is -- what did I accept? Technically I knew what a lesbian was, but I didn't know a lot of the details. I didn't know -- it was easy for me to -- and speaking to an English teacher here -- you -- understand I'm an engineer, my ability to talk and communicate isn't as good, and certainly not as good as my daughter's is today. I needed to know what to say and what not to say, and have some education. And that's -- PFLAG's one of the places I got that. So yeah, we were fine with her and that. And frankly, through her college years, dating and interfacing with her first partner, we got to see that budding romance. You know, as a parent, what do you want from your child? You want to see -- when you give up on the fact that you're not going to have a husband and wife, and two point three kids and a picket fence and two dogs, you really want to see that your daughter has someone who wants to take care of her and loves her. We got to watch that. We got to see that happen, because we spent several times with both of them. They would spend a lot of times on breaks at our house, okay, so we got to see all that. So it was, like I said, yeah. So we accepted her. It wasn't a big, traumatic event for our family. MF:Your daughter comes out, your family's very accepting. But you just described, you wanted education. You wanted to know what to say, when to say it. Could you describe how you found PFLAG, or how you found Liz and Trish? DK:Well, let's see, I don't know. Why I did it, I can tell you. Besides the education, Sally was a teenager, she was about eighteen at the time. And as I either knew then instinctively, or wanted to know -- I clearly know now, because that's how I counsel parents at PFLAG -- if your teenager comes out to you and you say, "Okay, that's fine," and walk away, they think you don't accept them. So you've got to do a little more than just say, "It's okay," and walk away. If you start asking too many questions to a teenager, then you're prying, and they don't like that, either. So what do you do? In our case, joining PFLAG sent my daughter a very clear message that we were accepting and willing to learn more and do something. I might add in here, a couple of things happened when she was in college. First year, which I think was a year before we actually got really involved with PFLAG, mainly because of Sally's partner, who was local, and didn't want it to be known and that. So we were sort of asked to be in the closet for a year, okay? Sally, during college, interned first for the GLAAD, the Gay, Lesbian -- no, GLAAD isn't -- I'm starting to use a different acronym. And so we went down for -- instead of parents' weekend, we went down the weekend before. You said you, when we previously talked, that you were down there then. We had the AIDS quilt in the mall. Sally ran a booth at GLAAD, at the AIDS quilt. Then afterwards, at night we went to a party, with Sally, again, being the intern, had to be at the door to greet everybody. But talking about diversity, and I always tell people, sometimes us white males who are in the majority, ought to find ourselves in the minority sometimes, see how it feels. Here we were at a party, there may have been one other heterosexual couple. You know, I had to be careful. I couldn't tell any of my jokes, which I was just beginning to realize I couldn't, you know? We had dinner afterwards, and I found it very interesting, some of the directors Sally was -- I found this gal was talking about going out to bars and finding girls. I wasn't that far out of (inaudible), I'm thinking, boy, we have some things in common, okay? But that was another event that I like to say comes -- Sally also interned for the National Gay-Lesbian Task Force, both in Washington, D.C., and New York, and became, and to this day, is still friends with some of the leaders (inaudible). In fact, I guess she was still in college when we went to the National Gay-Lesbian Task Force Greeting Change Conference, and we paid for her partner to also go, so all four of us were there. I might point out that somewhere in here, Sally's attitude was, she's got a couple of terrible parents, teenagers going up to where we are today, "I got a couple of terrible parents, what the heck are they all about?" It's, like, okay. At the conference, I kept telling her -- because Sally knew, she was an intern, she knew people, people knew her. And I referred people to her as, "I'm Sally's dad." "Hey dad, you're embarrassing me." "Well, that's my job. I'm a father. I'm supposed to embarrass you." Where, somewhere in the middle of this, people kept coming up to Sally and saying, "Your parents are fantastic! I wish my parents would have come to this. I wish my parents cared enough." Sally started to realize that maybe we weren't so bad, okay? So that PFLAG, all this stuff was our way of letting our daughter know, it's okay. (inaudible), it's okay if you're gay, you know. And being supportive, being supportive of her and her partner. And PFLAG just sort of fell into that. That again, the educa-- I'm not sure if we did it for the education, or we did it because the typical parents that want to go to PFLAG to learn more about it, I don't remember that transition. I do know that once we got, we got hooked. And of course, Liz and Trish were regulars at the meetings. MF:Tell me a little bit about why you got hooked. What was so moving about being a part of PFLAG for you? DK:Well, I'm not quite even sure. But that I remember doing it, I just don't remember the whys. We joined PFLAG, and at the times -- and I can't remember the names, I probably can look them up, but there were three families -- yeah, three families, we'd say, that started the local PFLAG chapter ; one of them had already gotten older and tired and stepped away, maybe they went to Florida. One remained -- Helen Early remained for a long time, even after we were there. Helen, she just passed away last year, I think. Then there was a woman in there, I can't remember, but she was the president at the time, and her husband was dying of cancer. She knew that when he did pass, she would be moving to California to be with her kids, okay? So it was sort of, like, "gee, Don, you seem like a right person. Would you like to be president?" Okay, and that was, like, a year or two. And that was, like, you know, I'm one who likes to get involved with an organization, but learn a little bit about it before I start getting heavily involved. So there was a woman called Elsa [Stohl?], who worked at Bell Labs, who was, again, an ally. Very diversity-oriented. They had a diversity group at Bell Labs, and she was head of it, as I remember. As it was explained to me, Elsa likes to get into a group, give it energy, and then move on. Okay, get it setting right, get it going well. So she stepped in to be president. But she wasn't always available. She was traveling enough that it defaulted to me. And so Melinda was, of course, we were there always together and doing things. And it just defaulted to, gee, I might as well step in to be president, because Elsa's going to move on, and Elsa's doing it all anyhow. Again, those were the early -- I don't remember that part of it as much as I remember the different events and things that we did, and the people and things like that. MF:Maybe we could talk a little bit about, what kinds of activities did PFLAG organize for families? And what kinds of events were you organizing in the early years of your presidency? DK:Let me say this, I think it's important to note, right now in the Lehigh Valley, there's a lot of acceptance. We really are out of business, PFLAG is, because -- you could tell in the early days, we get a phone call -- Melinda and I had the help line. That was another thing we did when this woman transitioned out and went to California. While I wasn't president, we took on the help line. And we just stopped that last year. In the early days, we'd pick up the phone and hear (gasps) -- and then we knew that was a parent that was in trouble, you know? As one of my friends said, because I used her as an example in meetings, you know, with everybody -- I can't -- I don't know what to do. I said, "Go turn to so-and-so, look what she did. What was your first reaction?" "I was going to jump off a cliff." Okay? Now she's a person who's one of our active members, or was. Today, in the last few years, we've got nobody coming to our meetings. If we did get someone coming to the meetings or calling us, it was, "How do I help my child? My child's being abused at school. I want to go stick up for his rights," things like that. So the whole complexion change, that's number one. Number two, right now we have the Bradbury-Sullivan Community Center. There are a zillion different programs. We have GSAs, we have all sorts of activities. Back twenty years ago, we had PFLAG, we had MCC Church, and that was just about it. Liz and Trish had a newsletter, had some friends, had some things, but there was no real organization of activities. So if you, for instance, needed to come out and you needed to get to your parents, you might come to PFLAG. If you were a forty-year-old who had been married and then realized your sexual orientation, where do you come for information? PFLAG. So it was a whole different situation back then. So what did we do? First of all, we had monthly meetings. You know, they were held at the same place. They did switch around different places, but generally you knew where they were, so you could come. They were confidential. You could call us -- you could come and talk and meet with people who had been there before and learn, that's why Liz and Trish came. Somewhere in there, really in the early days, because we went to one of the first PRIDE meetings, back in those days, it was GLBT, right? Well, the gays knew who they were. The lesbians knew who they were. There was some question about what a bi was, okay. Transgender -- that just didn't fit their image. That just didn't -- again, people shall remain nameless, but someone in GLBT in the Gay-Lesbian-Bisexual group was, like, "I don't understand why these men are getting dressed -- I just don't understand it." So I'm going to try to guess here for a minute that I said -- first of all, I made an early on decision to go and find out about transgender, because that's part of our mission. I attended some Renaissance meetings. I became friends with some people from Renaissance. Then because of this person, they said, "We need to set up." So we had an event one Saturday afternoon where we invited some of the leaders of the community to learn about transgender. I believe I can explain transgender and what it's all about as well as anyone now. Okay? By the way, fast forward to a couple of years ago, that same person was talking to someone, and this someone said to that person, "I don't understand this." "You don't have to. Just accept them." Okay. So we had the meetings. We had a few special things like that. We attended PRIDE, we had a booth at PRIDE. We supported different activities, like the Freedom to Marry. I can't remember if we did any other special -- you know, there were certain events where -- convening events where we had to set up a table. I do remember one time setting them up a table on Sunday, some event, and this woman comes up. I said, "Take all the literature." She said, "I already got it. I was at the meeting Tuesday." And it's, like, "Well, it's supposed to be confidential." Okay. Mostly we tried to have our meetings and be a presence, so that I suspect if you went to the -- the younger people don't know who we are, because we weren't as important. But if you go back to the people who were in the community twenty years ago, that age group, I think you'll find there's a whole bunch of people that know more than I, and we don't know them. Because they knew that there was this group out there, led by Don and Melinda, who supported them, even if their parents didn't. Okay? So that's what we did. And we did what PFLAG typically does, and that's the national thing of PFLAG. MF:I want to talk a little bit about the monthly meetings. You really describe people sort of calling the help line, or being panicked. For people in our community today, I think they'd be interested why people were so panicked, or the kinds of concerns that people that called the help line, or people that showed up at the meeting, what kinds of concerns were they bringing to those early PFLAG meetings when it was so essential for people in our community? DK:For the GLBT people, it was -- again, it seems to me we had a lot of people who would have been married and in relationships, whether they were forced or whether they thought that would change their -- I don't know. But they did realize that we were a source of support. We also had just GLBT who came to the meetings because there was no other form of support. Where are you going to go, okay take you as an example, you're gay, where are you going to go back then? To a bar? Where are you going to go for support? We were that support. Then there was the parents who were -- I looked at, and Melinda, GLBT parents, families and friends. Friends. So that doesn't mean you have to -- we're everything, okay, everybody's included. But from the parents' standpoint, this was a time when parents in Lehigh Valley were, God help me if my kid's gay. I must have done something wrong, what do I do? You know, it was the whole gamut. I mean, we had parents who were just absolutely shocked, we don't know where we're going. I think we had a few who just came because -- remember one, got to tell a funny story. My daughter's in junior high, and she wants to have this boy over to do a project. And it's, like, "No, mom and I aren't here, you can't have a boy over to the house." Fast forward a bunch of years, the parents, the boy and his brother come to the meeting, and that boy is gay. I guess I didn't need to worry, okay? But so we had -- it was a big difference -- different people came for different reasons. But by and large, parents were, at the time, it was, "What am I going to do? I'm going to jump off the cliff. How do I handle this? What do I do? Have I done something wrong? Get me through this." And we got them through it, you know? We could turn around and say -- and use members who were in the meeting, or whatever, to say they were in the same position you were, look at me now. Okay? And by the way, when I said I reached out transgender and I had that meeting, that person who ran that meeting is today one of my best friends. She is. She transitioned somewhere in there, did part of that transition at my house. And she would come to the meetings for anyone who was a transgender person, to help. So we were there, again, in the early days it was the parents who were just -- they were ready to do whatever. And they needed some semblance of how to cope with it, all right. You know, Melinda and I did fine. But that's not what everybody else did. Today we see more on TV, we've got more interaction. There's more acceptable -- we've come to grips with it, I guess. Not to say everyone, but some. It's a changed world. MF:Well, I'm curious, you described -- you said, "We got them through it." And I'm wondering if you could describe how. What strategies did PFLAG use to help parents that were really struggling to accept their children? How did you help people work through their fears? DK:Melinda was better at that than I am. Although when she was still working and I was here consulting, I'd get the phone calls, or at the meetings. And I think the meetings -- the phone calls, it was just talking through it, and inviting them to the meeting. Reassuring them that they didn't do anything wrong. Reassuring that their child was still the same person they knew before. I think that we had a few rare -- where people came to a meeting and they were just irate. They weren't going to accept -- I mean, as you know, there's just a group of people who are never going to accept the diversity, or GLBT people. But those people in the middle, and they're just lost souls, if you will, we need to take care of them. When we stopped having meetings, we did have one on one, and there's only one couple that we had that's, like, they were just obnoxious. And we wanted to throw them out. I couldn't believe how they were treating us and their son in our house. But in general, I think we just tried to show people that their children were the same child they were before. They knew more about that child than they did, and that things would be all right. Things would get better. Things that they would find out, and some of the things we talked about, it's, like, gee, you don't want to miss that when your son finds a partner. You don't want to miss that relationship, watching that. You don't want to be in a situation where you don't see your son. You know? And there's a few horror stories, and we used to not deploy those. But there are cases where parents didn't talk to the kid, didn't talk to the kid, and then there was no kid to talk to because of suicide. But generally, no. It's just a basic of talking them through, and the meetings, meeting other parents. We would tend to have sometimes Liz and Trish -- well, they were always there, but sometimes we'd have GLBT people who were (inaudible), oh my God, she's gay, what am I going to do? She won't amount to anything. Well, no. Then we'd bring in someone who was -- you know, go to the community, or whatever accomplished, and say, you know, "Come on. Your child has no future? It's not going to be any different," you know? So I guess that's basically what -- we also -- and that brought us back, we also advocated for, and I think we can talk about that, is going to government things and talking, and standing up in front. I had a great one with politicians of saying, you know, "Yeah, only ten percent is gay." Yeah, but every one of them, every one of those gay and lesbian people have a mother, father, an aunt and uncle, et cetera, et cetera." I said, "Maybe they're going to say it in public. Well, when they go in that voting booth, are they going to vote for someone who's against their child? I don't think so." We can come back to that later, too, another example. But go ahead. MF:Well, you just mentioned advocacy. What you describe is this real commitment to helping people work through fears about their children and their friends, to helping LGBT people feel connected, be leaders or pillars in the community. Now you're introducing this advocacy piece. Can you describe some of the major works of advocacy that PFLAG, during your time in PFLAG, really undertook? The major advocacy issues that you put at the forefront of your PFLAG group? DK:Let's see. I can remember meeting with a state senator, who said, "We really don't think gays should be married. They're not ready for it". And they've been divorced a couple of times." I can remember somewhat involved, Melinda more so than I was, when we had the -- well, in Allentown, we started with the Equal Rights Amendment, add gay, sexual orientation, gender identity to the anti-discrimination law. And as I remember, there were two times ; the first time didn't go anywhere, and the second time did. And I will share with you, part of the project was the Kreiders are also in this project. Kreiders didn't know Allentown very well, and they were older. And they used to come to our meetings regularly, okay? So that's a real thing, when you're a parent and you're emotional, and you think, and here's this former Mennonite minister and his wife who are little tiny old people saying, "It's okay." All right? Anyway, we had dinner with them and then took them to the meeting. And we walked in, and some people standing next to Liz and Trish said, "The other side's stacking on the deck." Liz said, "No, they're on our side." (laughs) So we went to those meetings, we spoke. I spoke, usually. Bethlehem had some more things, we spoke there. Melinda and I were honored by the Allentown Human Relations Commission for some of our work. And that's where I can tell the story. There's a couple of times where I tried to speak to groups and colleges, high schools and that. I wasn't real successful. Liz was more successful getting in than I was. But the first time I did it, I went with a lesbian, and she taught me something. And I use it every time I speak to a group. And at the Human Relations Commission is a good example. Someone I know tried to get the politicians to give her money for -- she was going on a walk for some charity, GLBT, probably, oriented. And it never happened. Okay. So in my talk, because I had to give an acceptance speech, and Liz said, "Make it count." So I start off as I do mostly, I say, "How many people in this audience are GLBT? I don't want anybody to come out," but, you know, a few people raise their hand. And I go on, I talked for a while. And then I say, "How many in this audience have a relative, a brother, sister, family member, uncle, or a friend who's GLBT?" At Lehigh, with the Gryphon Society, I did that talk, and I had seven percent, from one or two in the first place. Well, in this case, I had a large percentage, maybe twenty, thirty percent. And the reason I do that is to show that, you know, you walk into a thing and you say, oh, I can discriminate, there can only be one or two in here. Then you realize you're treading on unsafe water with a lot of people. At the end of the event, those politicians fell over each other to try to give this person a donation, okay? I'm sure there's a lot of other things we did as far as advocacy and speaking, and things like that. A lot of what we did, what I did, again, was indirect. Like I said, there's a lot of people who I'm sure -- and there's a lot of things we did just to show support, you know? Why did we go to the Freedom to Marry events, you know, the marriage type events? To show our support. You know, we were a presence. We were someone who was there, someone who was to show the community that there are two adults, or more, who do care, even if their parents don't. And again, back 20 years ago, a lot of GLB people did not have supporting parents. So here came two people who they care about, okay? So I don't know if you call that advocacy, okay. MF:Well, so I'm wondering if maybe -- you've mentioned the Freedom to Marry events a few times. And I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit more about PFLAG's work on that particular political issue. How was PFLAG involved with the Freedom to Marry movement? DK:Well, PFLAG nationally was certainly involved. Locally, again, we, as all other organizations in the area, supported that. Again, we went to the Freedom to Marry evening event. It wasn't necessarily PFLAG support, but on the Friday before the event, there was a march on the Lehigh County Courthouse, where people went in to try to get marriage licenses, unsuccessfully. They took their money, though. I always thought that was interesting. You know, they'd take the money, but they wouldn't give them a license, you know? Anyway, that was February, and it was cold. So we had to do something for the -- so Melinda made -- I don't know how many years when it started, and I don't know how many years, but obviously it stopped, but she made scarves every year. Something like sixty, seventy scarves. And she was a machine knitter, she had a machine that did it. But nevertheless. And of course, each year was a different color of the rainbow flag, okay? And there are people who -- probably Liz and Trish still have every one of them. But again, that was -- I guess we probably held banners sometimes. I can remember I don't remember what it was, I can remember being out in the cold, some banner and some things, whether that was Freedom to Marry or some other rights event. There was a -- with the adding orientation and gender identity to the Allentown Relations Commission Anti-Discrimination law, there was a challenge to that. I was not that involved, Melinda might have been more involved, where we were calling and checking and telling people not to, and stuff like that. You know, asking to rescind their -- a lot of people signed up to oppose it. We were calling and making -- because a lot of that was almost fraudulent the way they did it, at least in my opinion. But I can remember being a little bit involved. I can remember there being a court case, and we went there again in support. Understand, it wasn't as much that we actively did stuff, as much as just being there and saying, look at how many people there are. Or, look, there's some -- there was a case where, I think it was during that time, the Allentown Morning Call had an insert that was Spanish language. And this Spanish language one wrote a scathing article. And I don't remember the details right now, but a scathing article, anti-gay. And we had some real good supporters in the Spanish community, the GLBT activities. And of course, I'm sure Liz and Trish were there. So we had GLBT representation. And I went, maybe Melinda too, I don't remember. Well, you know, the Morning Call is, like, oh well, you know, this and that, and everything else, and you know, at one point, they said, "We use that newspaper because that's where we get our press people." Now somebody taught me this in industry. There's a time when someone could say something that someone can't, okay? As a straight male, I can say things in that kind of a situation that maybe a gay or a lesbian couldn't say, or a Hispanic couldn't say. And I turned to think and said, "You know, there's some very intelligent Hispanic people. Maybe you could get a few columnists and editorial people, rather than just" -- okay? So, you know, I guess Melinda and I interjected ourselves, where we could, in support, in just numbers, in just saying, there's straight people who are supportive in this. The Civil Rights Movement, and you know, that was in my childhood, as I knew it, got its real strength when white people started supporting it. They could no longer just ignore them, the group. And so that was a little bit of where my thought process came is, you know, this is going to take off more, the more of us that can support it. When we get the parents enraged -- which we did. I think through PFLAG that said, "You can't do that to my child!" You know? "I'm sorry, that's my child. What do you mean, my child can't have this, or can't have that?" We actually, I can remember this thing with fighting the people who signed off, and, you know, my wife called up a friend of ours and said, "What do you mean, your daughter" -- maybe she didn't quite say it to the daughter, but her attitude was, "What do you mean, you think your daughters are better than mine?" Okay? So it's, I guess, to say, as an engineer, I'm a problem-solver, and anywhere I could see that I could help solve the problem, I jumped in. And some of it was quiet, some of it was -- I'm not an in-your-face person, but, you know. Where else should we go here? MF:Well, so I have two different sort of ideas for moving forward. But I want to ask the sort of larger question. Looking back on all of your work in PFLAG, how do you think PFLAG as an organization has impacted the Lehigh Valley? DK:Let me just say, not everything was PFLAG, okay? You know, my support of Renaissance wasn't necessarily PFLAG, some of it was personal. I'm looking at something else we have in front of us. When MCC had their Christmas party and they needed a Santa Claus, guess who volunteered? You know, was that PFLAG? No. That's just me, all right? And that's me supporting the community, all right? So go ahead, what were you going to ask about PFLAG? MF:Well, this actually makes me think about a different question, because I think what you're describing is -- and you'll just have to tell me if I'm right -- but it sounds like the Lehigh Valley LGBT organizations were kind of inter-webbed, in a way, or connected importantly, so that you were drawing on each other for support for different kinds of events or for where you're dressing up as Santa Claus, you know, that you were really sort of working in tandem with each other. Maybe could you describe a little bit of how organizations worked together in the Lehigh Valley? DK:Well, I think you may have used the word "was," and I'd like to change that to "are," because I think we still are. Renaissance had a presence in our meetings at PFLAG. MCC, we had a presence at theirs. And in fact, they would end up having -- some of them, I can't remember if it was Freedom to Marry, or something, it was on a night with Renaissance, and so -- and Renaissance used their facility at the time. I think they still do. You know, there is that inter-mixing. I don't know that we ever made the distinction when we went to do something as a group, like fighting for rights, or Freedom to Marry, that it was PFLAG or MCC, or this or that or the other. You know, occasionally we'd have to go and explain to somebody, I can remember -- oh, we need to talk about Reading and Monroe County a little bit. But someone, one of those, it's, like, didn't quite understand why gender identity was important. And yet this particular lesbian always is mistaken for a man. Her voice is low. And I tried to tell her, when you go out in public -- this sounds prejudice, it's not, it's not meant to be -- but there are certain stereotypical things that people look at and say, she's a lesbian, okay? She's gay. If you don't fit that stereotype, they don't know. And believe me, I've convinced myself over and over and over again that they're not typical, not stereotyped people. But they don't know who she's sleeping with. And in fact, I'm pretty sure she's not sleeping with anyone. It's the gender identity that they see that they are tagging her. And so if you get gender identity on the books, then it's protection, okay? So and today, it's still interweaved. Here I am, PFLAG's essentially not -- you know, the only thing I claim is that I used to be involved with PFLAG ; we used to have a PFLAG. But I moved on. I'm now involved with the Community Center. I am their head of design. You don't know about the first one, but that was a hefty design project. But this one, there hasn't been that much design, but there's a little bit. So I'm still helping the community. I'm still involved, or I can be. I'm a little older, so I'm slowed down a little bit. So I like to think that we all have our little bit of the pie, and we all have a segment that is different than the other. There are times when I felt they overlapped too much, maybe, and it's, like, why are you doing that? That's what we're supposed to be doing. But it's all good. And the pie is us. And so I have never felt like if Renaissance needed something that I wouldn't be there to help them. If MCC needed a Santa Claus, I'd be there. If the community needed scarves for Freedom to Marry, Melinda was there. And it's still that way. It's just you've got so much more going on today, that it's -- yeah. MF:My previous question I'll return to, but I'll make it broader now. DK:Can I just bring up one thing? MF:Oh yes, please do. DK:You know, because we're talking historical here, too. At some point in time we were doing things, and Reading was starting up. And we said, gee, we have a newsletter, why should we have two? Why don't we bring them in? So we started doing things. Then later on, around 9-11, somebody came to our meeting and wanted to start a group up in Monroe County. So we ultimately put those three groups together and called it Eastern PFLAG. It used to be Lehigh Valley, I think. But now it's Eastern PA. I'm not sure we ever fully operated as one group ; each had their leaders, and each did the leaders slightly different and there wasn't a lot of back and forth. Although I can remember taking a group of transgender people to Reading and also to Monroe County to help a situation, and that. So I just wanted to bring that in, that we did formulate and bring -- and right now, Reading has also ceased to have meetings, for the same reason. Monroe County's slowed down and stopped, and we're not sure what's going on up there. We want to separate functionally because -- but I'm not sure what's going on. Yep, and then we've got all the people. But anyway, I wanted to bring that in, that we -- okay. MF:I have a question about that. How did you support Monroe County and Reading in developing their PFLAG groups? What was that process like? DK:Well, first of all, we had, at the time, was running a newsletter. So we extended that newsletter to them so that they're members. Then we kept membership lists. We had a rather large membership list, which was confidential. Everything went out as blind copies, but we'd keep people informed and keep them connected, if you will. I would often go to the Reading meetings. We had a picnic often, and we would have the people together. And sometimes when Reading PRIDE and that, we would set up a table. Again, the personalities were such -- Reading and Allentown -- we never really intermixed much, if you're new to The Valley. But somehow the Lehigh Valley is here, and when you cross that border into Berks County, you're not in Lehigh Valley, according to Berks County people. You're in Berks County, and it's heavens to Betsy that you, you know, it's an (inaudible) -- and by the way, I'm a quarter of a mile from Berks County, okay? But Monroe County was just -- and I had gone up to their meetings a couple of times, just to interface with. It was when we had one Treasurer. We made donations to different -- and that's something else we did -- we made donations to different groups and activities. And I can't remember where we made donations. But we collected some money, and we tried to spread it around a little bit, and somewhat evenly between the different groups. Reading did have a -- I can't remember, it's down here -- they had a funding organization, community funding, and they set up on to do stuff for GLBT. They got additional money from somewhere, matching funds. And I was on that board for a while, to try to figure out where to spend the money. I don't remember where we ended up spending money. But that was an interesting activity, too. The problem is, you tend to do -- if you were writing a resume that you wanted to get another job, or as my consultant, you would write down all these things you did so that you could say, "Hey folks, here's what I did." When you do it just because you want to do it and you think it's the right thing to do, you don't always write it down. You don't always remember what you did, and how you did it. MF:Well, we're getting towards the end of our ninety minutes, and I have two questions that I'm thinking of. One is one I asked earlier, but I didn't ask it well. This is sort of a historical question. What do you think PFLAG -- but then the other organizations, MCCLV, Lehigh Valley, Renaissance -- what kind of impact do you feel those organizations have made on the Lehigh Valley in their early years, when we're thinking historically about your early work in PFLAG? How did those organizations together change the Lehigh Valley? DK:Well, like I said, the Lehigh Valley over the twenty years has changed from not as accepting to a pretty accepting community. And yes, some of that is watching TV and more GLBT people on TV, et cetera. And some of it is just, you know, what's going on the world. I think that the other part of that equation has to be the different groups in the Lehigh Valley. When you get up and you put signs up and say, "We want equal rights" -- I just realized, yeah, I didn't go to those things. It's cold. But I made the signs for them, okay? That's another thing I forgot I did. You know, it's calling attention to what's going on. When you go to city council and you fight for equal rights, and all that gets press, and everything else. So it's those groups. We didn't get where we are today without struggles and without people's efforts. Those different groups, each in their own way, helped do that. The early days of PRIDE. In the PRIDE Festival, we need a bigger -- having a par-- we used to have a parade down Main Street. People see that, you know? There's another one, we participated as a group, PRIDE, with my old truck in the Puerto Rican parade, okay? And -- trying to think now, it was something else -- so those different things and those different activities are what, I think, painted a picture to the community of who we were. And there were allies. The few times I spoke at organizations or to schools, Liz is speaking, all that has caused a different thing. Probably it helps that we've got people in responsible positions at different companies. You know, I'm not -- no offense to Mr. PP & ; L where I used to work, PPL now, there's no & ; in there, they took it out when I left -- but I used to kid and laugh. Says, you know, it's too bad there's some bigot in there. It's terrible to be a bigot. You have to remember who you hate. As a Jewish person, I'm not sure I feel totally comfortable at times. I probably knew of some gay people who I didn't, you know, (inaudible), but I wasn't necessarily friendly -- I am friendly with those people now. Try and take care of my sins, if you will. But when I got caught up and found out that they have a gay association, I was flabbergasted, okay? So, you know, that all helps with -- it's hard to say why we got where we are, okay? A friend of mine transitioned while at Mack Truck. Mack Truck supported her. You know, what was that all about? Some of the colleges we have were not supportive. Again, I don't want to go into one of them, but they weren't supportive, and others were, okay? So it's not -- I don't know. All right? Don't know how it all came about, and glad it did. MF:Okay. I want to return to something that you talked about sort of briefly before. But you talk about a sort of change in the need for PFLAG, that the shift in Lehigh Valley has decreased the membership and attendance at meetings for PFLAG. I'm wondering if you could reflect a little bit on that transition. From a really active organization to our current sort of moment, why do you think PFLAG's attendance sort of declined and the interest in the organization kind of declined a bit? DK:Well, there obviously -- again, there's much more acceptance today than there was then. Why? I don't know. You know, I'm an engineer, I don't know why. It's a social economical, whatever, change. And how much we had impact on that -- I can guess, like I just said, you asked what the groups did. I can guess. But the effect is that people are more tolerant, and learned tolerance in Lehigh Valley. Is that because of the effects we did? Is that effect of watching more things on TV -- I mean, I watch these home shows where the couples are looking for a home, and it seems like a larger and larger percentage are same sex couples. That's got to be a positive thing, when people see it and say -- you know, their children, and say, "Gee, I just watched that show the other day, and these two guys could afford this really expensive house. You know, I guess my son's going to do all right." Or, "My daughter's going to do all right." You know, all that has an effect. As to which one, or what, I don't know. Maybe PFLAG didn't have a big effect on that. Maybe we're just seeing the effect, you know? Affect, effect, whatever. But we kept seeing a big decrease in the people coming to our meetings. We held on for quite a while, and finally it was like we didn't even stay the whole hour. We were just, like, nobody's here. You know, we talked about changing our format to being just -- because we like getting together once a month, okay, in the early days. And maybe even towards the end. We would get together for dinner before or after the meetings, because we got to be real good friends. So I don't know why it changed. I just know it absolutely did change, again. Now I've had a few people say, "You should keep doing it." I say, "Why?" You don't keep selling tacos when nobody wants tacos, you know? All right? I'm not sure how much the meetings and all that helped, as much as Melinda and I and all the other PFLAG parents being there. And understand, I mean, PFLAG wasn't just Melinda and I. There were people in Reading, two or three people that were involved with the Reading group. They kept Reading going, and kept influence and a presence in Reading. We have still people, friends here who were in our board and our involvement who also, you know, came to those meetings and came to those events and things like that. So, yeah. MF:I'll ask one final question, and then we'll move towards the conclusion. We talked a lot about sort of community impact and the shift in PFLAG, and I kind of want to move towards ending with a more of a personal reflection. DK:Okay. MF:How has being involved in PFLAG mattered to you personally, or mattered to you as a father and as a spouse? How have you personally been impacted by your years of work in multiple organizations, you know, centrally with PFLAG? DK:I mean, my daughter thinks we're more gay than she is, because we're more involved. Yeah. Let me put it this way. No offense to the Jewish religion or Jewish people, but we were involved with the synagogue for many years -- not a lot, we started late, when my daughter was Sunday school age. And when she was about ten, eleven or so, we moved to the country. It became very hard to get her there midweek for Hebrew school. On weekends I would drive her there, it took me a half an hour to get there, class was an hour, then I had to wait around, do something for an hour and then take her home. That was a pain in the neck. During the week was hard, because we both work. And subsequently, we made the decision based on her and her feelings, and everything else, to drop out. The best I can say is, the synagogue was a clique. We never quite got into the clique. We have friends who were involved with the synagogue who were our friends before, and they're still our friends. And yeah, we made a couple. Right around that time was the Matthew Shepard event, and we had well, there's another example. We went to the Matthew Shepard events, and there was candles and stuff. We did the same thing with the event in Florida. So, you know, that's where we show our presence, if you will. Anyway, I'm standing there, and I'm looking around at the GLBT board. And understand, that was relatively early in our involvement with the community. And I said, I have more friends right now in the GLBT community than I did in the synagogue. I'm going to put, I guess, a pat on my back a little bit -- about five years ago, I guess it was 2015 at the Bradbury-Sullivan gala, we were honored, Melinda and I. The Kreiders were honored before us, and we really love the Kreiders. Roberta refers to me as "son," I refer to her as "mother," and that's pretty odd when you have a Mennonite and a Jewish couple that were that close. And we still see them every few weeks. So we thought that was a big deal. We thought, man, we didn't do much -- by the way, Sally was keynote speaker. And we got a standing ovation. This is my community now, right? And I don't feel I do a lot for it. Other people think I might. But to me, it's my community, and I do things for my family, my community, all right? So does that answer your question? MF:Yeah, thank you so much. Well, before we close, I just want to give you the opportunity, is there anything else that you really want to share today that we haven't yet talked about? DK:You know, there's so many things over those twenty years that I'm sure I did that might be interesting to the community, I don't know. But like I said, it's been a great time, it still is a great time. You know, it's always -- a stereotypical comment is, "Some of my best friends are GLBT." Well, it's not -- that's true. It's not a fake comment, okay? The Kreiders are our best friends. Liz and Trish are our best friends. Some of their friends are now our best friends. Again, I've got a couple of friends who are transgender. I'm going to leave you with this: In the early days, I was concerned of who was gay, and who wasn't, all right? I don't have gaydar, and so I don't know. My biggest concern at some point in time, in certain times, is to know what gender or -- no gender, sexual orientation or gender identity people are, because I want to be able to say to someone, "I'm on your side. I'm a supporter. I'm an ally." You say that to a gay man, and he's not, you might get beat up, okay, and insulted. You know? It could be an insult. Transgender are even harder because someone who's either crossdressing or transgender wants to be accepted, and doesn't want to be identified, okay? So if I can pick them out and identify them, they just lost. So how do you tell someone GLBT, you're on their side? Okay, so two stories with that ; one, we were at the Creating Change conference in Pittsburgh that year. And the events were either at the basement or the top floor. And everybody was riding up and down in elevators. Now I won't begin stereotyping, but most lesbians don't dress very fancy, okay? Melinda gets on the elevator, and from the back of the elevator is, "Hi, mom," which I believe is a euphemism for someone -- a member of the community. "No, that really is my mom." It was Sally, okay? That's one story. The other is, I have ceased to care what somebody's orientation is. I am at events at Bradbury-Sullivan, or whatever, where I can pretty much guess that probably somebody is or isn't. In my early days at PFLAG, and I wanted to be able to prove to myself and be able to say this -- we'd go around and tell who we were. And I have to admit, I tried to pick out who was gay and who wasn't. One time, there was a man with a younger guy, who I knew was gay, and was sitting there like this. And I said, "Oh, that's dad. He's not happy." No, it was the partner. MF:Mmm. DK:Another time it was a woman, who I said, oh, she's gay. No, she was there because of her son. Okay? I don't care anymore. It doesn't matter to me. You know, if somebody tells me, fine. I know a little more about them, you know? I'm not interviewing you, so I don't know a lot about your background ; we should have talked. But it doesn't matter to me anymore. Maybe that goes a little step beyond acceptance, a step beyond where we're at, whatever. But, you know, if somebody wants to share with me what they are or who they are, or whatever, that's fine. It doesn't matter to me anymore. I don't -- it's not that I don't care. It's just that you're a person, I like this person, and I'm not going to make a judgment based on their sexual orientation or their gender ID, and they're fine with me regardless. So that's probably what -- I said it started with getting more and more acceptance and diversity. Now I have to give one more piece of Don Kohn philosophy here. There are those people of a religion belief who believe that we're being tested on earth, and we won't go to heaven if we fail that test. Those people who believe that way have a different idea of what that test is than I do. My belief -- (inaudible), this is a great forum for this -- my belief for this is, what is universal throughout the planet? Diversity. And maybe it's our approach to diversity that's our real test. And a lot of people are failing it. Okay? MF:Don, thank you so much for talking with me today. It truly is -- it's just been a real pleasure and an honor to hear some of your stories. DK:I enjoyed it. I enjoyed talking with you also. And I'm glad -- you know, you talk about what I've done, I think what you're doing, and the rest of the people with this oral history, is also doing something for the community. So we'll have to come when you get honored. I'll have to put the bug in Adrian's ear, that should be one of the honorees, that's the group who's doing this. Okay? MF:Thank you so much. DK:He does listen to me sometimes. MF:Well, again, this has been wonderful. Thank you so much. I will just conclude the interview there by letting you know that we'll reach out with a transcript, probably within the next three months, if that's all right. DK:Okay. MF:Great. DK:All right. MF:All right, that will be where we'll stop the interview, but I wanted to stay on the line with you and just check in. How did that go for you? DK:Well, well, I think that there's areas that I was surprised we didn't get to, and there's probably more. But I threw in a few things that I thought were important. Yeah. I thought it went well. MF:I thought it was fabulous. Look, I was tearing up there a little bit. I had to -- fortunately I had Kleenex here, but I didn't want to have that on camera, so -- DK:Oh, okay. MF:I had to dab my eyes there a bit. Yeah, I thought that was wonderful. Well, if there were things that we missed today that you were surprised about, we could always reschedule a second interview if you feel like you're-- DK:I don't know that they were that important. I think I got the important stuff in. MF:Okay. All right. Well, then I will be in touch when we have a transcript for you, and I'll send that via email. And in the meantime, if you have any questions for me, or any concerns for me, anything you want to talk about, just reach out. DK:I'm fine. I just -- we'll see each other, I'm sure, at the Bradbury-Sullivan Community Center sometime and say hello. I'm terrible at remembering people, so it's not a strongpoint. Whereas as a professor, I'm sure you know who all your students are, and so-- MF:Yes, but then sometimes, like a year later, I'll know the face, but I'll forget the name, so-- DK:Politicians are very good at remembering me. I'm terrible. As I'm getting older, I'll remember someone and it's, like, but I can't remember the name. Then it'll hit me. MF:Well, just poke me and say, "I know you. Remind me where from." DK:Well, I'm saying if you see me, poke me, and -- let me put it this way. There's not as many gray-haired old men who show up -- (laughter) with their wives, you know? It reminds me of one time, somehow we got tickets to a GLBT event. I don't even remember how we got it. I mean, they sent it to PFLAG. So Melinda and I said, "We'll go." And there we are. It's, like, "What are you doing here? You're not gay!" You know? "Well, okay." So again, sometimes it's interesting to be in a -- to find out what it's like to be in a minority, when you get to be there. It's not the same. I can't say that I know what it's like to be a lesbian or a gay man. But I understand. And so it's -- yeah. MF:Well, I will say "hi" to you when I see you at the Bradbury-Sullivan, then. DK:I'm looking forward to meeting your partner, I assume, so-- MF:We would be delighted to meet you. DK:Yes. MF:Well, I will be in touch really soon, Don. I hope you have a wonderful day, and thanks again. DK:Good. Thank you. It was enjoyable. MF:Bye, now. DK:Bye-bye. How do I get out of this? MF:I'll just end it for both of us. DK:Okay. MF:When I click this button, I'll disappear. DK:You know, always when I've done Zoom for other things, like a friend of Liz and Trish's had a Zoom birthday party, Melinda always set it up. And my granddaughters had cello concerts with a bunch of kids, and she set it up. So this is the only time I've ever been on Zoom. Now Facebook, I do my yoga class on Facebook. Not on Facebook, on Skype. So that I'm familiar with. But -- okay. MF:You did wonderful for Zoom. Okay, I'll turn it off right now. END OF AUDIO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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01:37:24
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Don Kohn, May 11, 2020
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Don Kohn talks about his involvement with the Eastern PA chapter of Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG).
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LGBT-09
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2020-05-11
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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