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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: HIV/AIDS
Description
An account of the resource
In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
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Liz Bradbury
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
T. Scott Allen
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_11.xml
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5.4 July 2, 2020 T. Scott Allen, July 2, 2020 PH40_11 01:34:23 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg AIDS (Disease) T. Scott Allen Liz Bradbury video/mpeg AllenTScott_20200702_video.mp4 1.0:|1995(5) 0 https://youtu.be/DnT8oLHQ5Oc YouTube video 225 Interview Introduction LB: Oh, you’re young. We’re not there yet because we have to do this whole thing. So wait a minute. I have to say this. With this project, Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and Trexler Library at the Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experience in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community, collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences from COVID AIDS to from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury, and I’m here with T. Scott Allen to talk about his experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of the COVID-19 pandemic, as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive. We’re meeting on Zoom, and today is July second, twenty-twenty. And you are in Allentown, is that correct? 0 383 Reflecting on early memories of the HIV epidemic in the 1980s and 1990s LB: Good. Let’s just start right into this. We sit in the middle of the current public health crisis, where experience that we had -- we want to take this opportunity to look back and reflect, and to capture the stories of those who lived through the worst of the HIV epidemic in the nineteen-eighties and nineties. And we start right out with that question. Do you remember the first time you became aware of the disease? And then just start talking from there. You can say whatever you want. 
 ; 
 ; TSA: Well, I came to the Diocese of Social Missioner in January of nineteen eighty-nine from Wheeling, West Virginia. 0 562 Engagement with HIV/AIDS epidemic in the Lehigh Valley / Involvement of religious communities TSA: When I got to the Lehigh Valley, it was much more -- engaged me much more because there were actually people here that had HIV/AIDS and people that needed help. I mean, and it was lots of things that they needed. It was like some of them just needed food, and some of them needed healthcare. Some of them needed housing. Because there was no safety net from Washington at the time or Harrisburg, really. It was a very hopeful time. While it was sad and this was a tragic thing going on, a lot of innovative things were being done, especially -- the church had a chance to really be a partner with groups that they wouldn’t have had partnerships with otherwise, and make friends, and show them the church wasn’t -- I mean, it was -- religious communities weren’t all great at the time, as you know. 0 662 Working as a grant writer for AIDS outreach / Collaborators in providing services for affected people TSA: And so, I think that was one of the things that was so amazing to me, is how much we cooperated with one another. I wrote grants. I was a grant writer for the Diocese. I wrote grants for the AIDS Services Center. I wrote grants for FACT. I wrote grants for AIDS outreach. 
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 ; LB: What were the grants for? What did they -- 
 ; 0 839 Providing housing and health care for underserved people in the community / The Transitional Living Center in Fountain Hill TSA: And then we tried to start, as you may remember, the Gilead House, which was supposed to be the Lehigh Valley version of Rainbow House in Berks County. And Kit Hower headed that project up. And that didn’t have a long life, mainly because some of the times, I hate -- and I’ll say this, and you can edit this out -- but sometimes, once the hospitals saw they could make money on something, they withdrew support of the community project and started offering it themselves. 
 ; 
 ; LB: I know that’s true. 0 940 Early discussions and misconceptions on how HIV was transmitted / Church and HIV transmission TSA: And so, it was a sad time on that level. But we tried to make up for it in the Lehigh Valley. There was a great deal of compassion here at the time, and a great deal of understanding about how people became homeless because they had an HIV diagnosis. We had to fight a lot of fear in the culture because like this pandemic, we didn’t know everything about it. We didn’t know everything, how it was transmitted. I mean, there was a time we had no idea how it was transmitted. 
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 ; LB: Yeah, it took years. 0 1472 Reflections on friends who were HIV positive LB: Did you have any friends that were -- that you knew well that were HIV positive that went through this time, or are still around, or whatever? 
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 ; TSA: Yeah. Well, everyone that I met who was HIV positive I met through my work, or being social in the gay community, or hanging out, and volunteering, and doing volunteer work at the AIDS Services Center. I didn’t have a lot of close social friends, if that’s what you’re asking. But I’ve had close social friends die since then, who were HIV positive, and had it for a long time, and long-term survivors, and had other underlying conditions that wasn’t good to have with HIV. I remember David Houseknecht. And what a character he was. And I remember our bishop. 0 1600 Role of the Episcopal Church during the HIV/Aids epidemic LB: The Episcopal Church really rose to this occasion, and I think there were a lot of people that sort of shifted their allegiances from other denominations to get into -- become Episcopalians because of this. It was remarkable because several people that I’ve interviewed have said, “Well, the Episcopal Church was really different compared to the other churches, other church involvement. ” 
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 ; TSA: And I wonder about that, of why that was, and I’m not quite sure why that was. But I think part of it was we were such an urban church. Our strength is really in cities. 0 1834 Gilead House / Asbestos problem LB: When you were talking about Gilead House and that was a -- where -- was that a place? Where was it? 
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 ; TSA: It was a place. We got a place over at the old Allentown State Hospital. They gave us one of the buildings. Of course, we thought, oh, this is great. Well, then we went in there and found out that we had to remediate half the building because the floor and the ceiling were asbestos. 0 2022 Reflections on the atmosphere of caretaking facilities run by minority groups LB: I had an interview with Bill Aull, who was really involved with Rainbow House. And there was such a significant community building feeling with regard to Rainbow House that -- I mean, I want to steer you into saying something about the fact that when a hospital takes over something that’s run by a minority group, things are different. 
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 ; TSA: They are different. You don’t have to steer me that way. I think when you have people whose primary concern is running a place to make money off of it, as opposed to people that are running the place to care for people, the quality is different. 0 2254 Common enemies of discrimination and prejudice / Politicization of social issues TSA: And I remember that there was energy, enthusiasm, support, particularly in the gay community at the time. It was a galvanizing force in the gay community. It was like you had a common enemy. Nothing galvanizes people more than having a common enemy. 
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 ; LB: That’s so true. 
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 ; TSA: And the enemy was multi-fraught. It was prejudice, and discrimination in the culture. It was the medical community and providing services. It was we can’t let our brothers and sisters languish. 0 2412 ACT UP / Demonstrations and Parades TSA: Well, I think what the result of that was ACT UP. I mean, people just had to go to the streets because of the ignorance, because of the lack of response from the national government, and the lack of compassion coming out of the White House seemingly. ACT UP had to be in your face, and they were until people -- until political leaders were afraid of ACT UP. They didn’t want ACT UP to show up at their office doing some kind of demonstration because it would not be -- it would be pretty explicit if they did. The phenomenon that I saw was that the Reagans were singularly unhelpful for a period. They came around, but begrudgingly. 0 2779 Involvement with the Integrity organization / Dixie White LB: What other organizations were you involved with? Were you part of the Gay Men’s Chorus? I don’t remember whether you were part of that now. 
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 ; TSA: No, I wasn’t. We started Integrity at the time. 
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 ; LB: Oh, right. Of course. Yeah. 
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 ; TSA: Which was the Episcopalian LGBT organization, which is now -- well, I’m declaring it defunct. I’ve got to go close our bank account. We don’t need it anymore. We don’t need it. And that’s a good thing. We won. We won. 0 3049 Experience as a priest in North Carolina / Racism and Anti-racism TSA: It was just before I left. That was starting to happen just before I left. I went to North Carolina from here. I was kind of burnt out after six years of just being on a treadmill, and I wanted to go to a little Southern sleepy town and be the rector for them, just be a priest for a while. 
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 ; LB: Where did you go? 
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 ; TSA: I went to Pittsboro, North Carolina, which is twenty miles south of Chapel Hill. But that’s a whole other story. That was not a good idea on my part. But anyway. . . 0 3374 Coming out experience in a religious setting TSA: No, I was unemployed. I left that church under, let’s just say, stressful circumstances. As you know, I was married and have two children. And actually, my involvement in HIV/AIDS movement and interaction with the gay community started making me ask questions and be honest to me about myself, and stuff that I was terrified to face, and did everything I could, including getting married, not to face. But I came out in the wrong place, which was down there. You can bleep this, but it was an S show, as you can imagine. 0 3615 Being sent for psychiatric evaluation TSA: Well, I was sent off for psychiatric evaluation, which was like what? They sent me to Minnesota. In all of this retrospective, it turned out for good. There was grace in all of this because the guy in Minnesota, who was my -- the psychiatrist who was overseeing my -- I had to do the Wassermann test, and the MMPI again, and all that stuff. But he turned out to be a guy -- a gay man, who said, “The bishop wants to defrock you. ”I said, “Why? I’ve done nothing wrong except announce the divorce from my wife, and trying to be honest about myself at the same time, and trying to be discreet about it as much as possible. 0 3995 Feeling joy and sadness in reflecting on the early days of the AIDS/HIV epidemic / Experiencing social breakthroughs TSA: That’s funny. Well, I think back on those times as -- they weren’t dark days for me. They were good days, as far as working with the HIV/AIDS stuff. They were full of hope, and there was joy in it. There was sadness. People died and we were sad about that. No question about that. But there was also equal and opposite joy and feeling of community and support that I haven’t felt like that since really. Maybe a little bit I’m feeling with the Black Lives Matter movement now, but it’s starting to feeling a little more like that. 0 4178 Caring for a young family during the AID epidemic / David Houseknecht and Dixie White LB: That’s true. Let’s see. I know that you’re busy and you’ve got some stuff that’s coming up really soon. I always ask people if they had been in a situation where they were caring for anybody with HIV, where you had to go and bring them food or care people like that.
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 ; TSA: Not on a consistent basis, no. Because you have to remember I had a young family then. 
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 ; LB: Oh, that’s true. 
 ; 0 4684 The return of virus related terminology / ELISA test TSA: I know. Well and truth is, we never came up with an HIV vaccine. I mean, that’s the thing. It’s funny how the language has come back to me because we were always talking about viral load, T cells. All of that language is back. All of that language is back. And the ELISA test. 
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 ; LB: I don’t know about that. What was that?
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 ; TSA: The ELISA test was the second -- if you -- the first one was a simple test that would say if you’re HIV positive or HIV negative. But it had a lot of false negatives and false positives.
 ; 0 4869 Advice and reflections for consideration for future generations / Focusing on humanity LB: We’re at the last ten minutes of this. If we’re thinking about how people are going to be watching this someday in the future thirty years from now, some kind of -- or more, and they’re going to look back at this, and here’s your chance to talk to the future. Tell them a little bit about just sort of the summation about that time in the Lehigh Valley with regard to HIV/AIDS during the height of the epidemic, and maybe some other words that you might want to toss in there. What do you think? 
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 ; TSA: That seems like a very heavy task, to talk to the future. But I think more what it taught me was communities can rise up together and address problems that seem insurmountable and seem bigger than us, and they can do it in a way that is phenomenal and not only helps the people with the disease, but it helps you. It helps you focus your own humanity. 0 5187 Attending events and interviews in a minister collar / Attending Allentown City Council meetings LB: I want to thank you personally for a couple of times when I desperately needed somebody who was wearing a minister collar to show up fast at an event. I remember when we were fighting the ordinance that time in City Hall --
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 ; TSA: I dragged Malloy. I said, “Come on, boy. We got to get up to City Hall and show -- put our mugs on the TV camera. ” 
 ; 0 5326 Passing the Allentown ordinance / Opposition of Allentown diocese LB: The big difference between Allentown and Bethlehem was that when we passed Allentown’s ordinance, the ordinance was already in existence, and it was passed in nineteen sixty-five to protect people based on race, religion, national religion, sex, and, I don’t know, one or two other things. And so, we had to add sexual orientation, gender identity. And that’s a tricky thing. And that was two-thousand and two. It actually started in 1998, and we worked all the way through two-thousand and two to actually pass it, and then we had to fight that referendum. It took seven years to put that in place, and it was really hard. 0 MovingImage T. Scott Allen talks about the AIDS epidemic in the Lehigh Valley of Pennsylvania. He talks about his years as an Episcopal minister and his work with AIDS Services Center, about people who had HIV/AIDS, and how churches supported people who were sick. T. SCOTT ALLEN LIZ BRADBURY: -- on this computer. Now to see other things, that there's a little dot up there that tells you it's recording. And now I know. I must look at that all the time. T. SCOTT ALLEN: Yes. I see it on mine too. It tells me you better watch what you say, bud. It's being recorded. LB: And I think you're pinned in there. I just want to be sure that you're pinned. TSA: Oh, I see. LB: And you are. TSA: You are using the enhanced encryption recording. LB: Pardon me? TSA: It just says I'm using enhanced encryption. So, I guess the Russians can't tap into (inaudible). LB: Thank goodness because they could use this. I know you have another thing right after this, so I'm going to -- and you've already done some big deal this morning. Man, you're a busy guy. TSA: And they're doing construction next door, so if you hear the sound of drills and circular saws in the background, that's what's going on. Of course they would pick today to do that. Of course, my neighbor decides always in the middle -- when I'm in the middle of noonday prayers daily to leaf blow their front porch at about midway through them. So much for urban living. We live in the city. We live close to each other. LB: And there's fireworks. TSA: Oh my God. Yes, there are. LB: On Monday night, I was working until about 1:30 in the morning to finish a project. And up until then and after I went to bed, I could hear the fireworks. And at 5:00 a.m., somebody set off two other huge, bomb like fireworks. Woke me right up. I had gotten three and a half hours. TSA: I thought there were gunshots for a while, and I thought oh, Lord, have mercy. But it wasn't. It was just these stupid one-boom fireworks that were just -- LB: It's fireworks. And the problem is because of this new law, which is I'm sure going to be repealed because it was such a mistake, but you can buy fireworks everywhere. TSA: Well, I don't know where they're getting these because most of the fireworks I see are just kind of small things. LB: You can buy those big, scary ones everywhere now. You can get them at the dollar store. TSA: Wow, really? Because I think they're making them -- LB: They're at every convenience store because they repealed the law because they wanted to tax revenue to fulfill some kind of deficit. So, they said, "Well, we'll just let them buy fireworks everywhere, and we'll tax them really high." And so, they are double tax than the regular sales tax. It was the biggest mistake ever because it's every person in this city who has to -- who doesn't like to be woken up twenty-four hours a day or hear gunshots is furious. And throughout the state. It's not just in the cities. TSA: It's bad for dogs and dog owners too. I remember I would take Martini, my dog -- who -- she's dead now -- but I would take her up to my bedroom -- which I had a window air conditioner in my bedroom -- turn on the air conditioner, turn on the TV, and that -- between the air conditioner and the TV, that blocked out a lot of that. She couldn't hear it. It was good. LB: We're on record, so I got to read you this stuff now. I got carried away. Let's see. I've got that. Oh, I need to turn my phone off. TSA: My only concern was having to give you my birthday. LB: Rose didn't want to give me her year, and I said, "Of course you don't have to do that." You don't have to do that if you don't want to. TSA: I was born just before Kennedy was shot. LB: Oh, you're young. We're not there yet because we have to do this whole thing. So wait a minute. I have to say this. With this project, Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and Trexler Library at the Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experience in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community, collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences from COVID AIDS to -- from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury, and I'm here with T. Scott Allen to talk about his experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of the COVID-19 pandemic, as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive. We're meeting on Zoom, and today is July second, twenty-twenty. And you are in Allentown, is that correct? TSA: I'm in Bethlehem right now. But my church is in Allentown. LB: I have to put down where you are when you're doing this. You're in Bethlehem? TSA: I'm sitting in South Bethlehem right now. LB: We did all of those things. I pinned you. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start, can you please state your full name and spell it for me? TSA: Well, I'm just going to use my initial, T, period, Scott, S-C-O-T-T, Allen, A-L-L-E-N. LB: And would you please share your birth date or day? TSA: December twenty-second. A couple years before Kennedy was shot. LB: You're way younger than I am, Scott. Because I remember when Kennedy was shot. TSA: Well, no, I was in first grade actually. LB: I was in kindergarten, so you win. But anyway, do you consent to this interview today? This is the consent portion. TSA: Yes. LB: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable formats? TSA: I do. LB: Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats, including films, archives, websites, presentations, and even other formats? TSA: Absolutely. I'll be a movie star. LB: Yes. Do you understand that you will have thirty days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview, identify any parts that you would like to delete, and, or withdraw the interview from the project? If you say I don't want to do this at all, forget -- we'll do the whole thing again, if you wanted. Although, let's not do that. TSA: No. LB: But I will if you want me to. TSA: It's not like an answering machine message. Re-record. LB: So, you understand that? Okay? TSA: I understand that, yeah. LB: Good. Let's just start right into this. We sit in the middle of the current public health crisis, where experience that we had -- we want to take this opportunity to look back and reflect, and to capture the stories of those who lived through the worst of the HIV epidemic in the nineteen-eighties and nineties. And we start right out with that question. Do you remember the first time you became aware of the disease? And then just start talking from there. You can say whatever you want. TSA: Well, I came to the Diocese of Social Missioner in January of nineteen eighty-nine from Wheeling, West Virginia. I was aware of HIV/AIDS before I got here. But it was just starting to become in the national conversation, I should say. It was a few people sick in New York City and in urban areas, and hadn't really filtered out yet to towns and smaller rural areas. It was just starting to be of great concern in the national conversation when I arrived in eighty-nine. And it was a time of obviously great fear because the AIDS Quilt was just such a reminder of how many people were dying of this disease. And I remember seeing the AIDS Quilt in about eighty-eight in Cobo Hall in Detroit, Michigan. And the whole basement of Cobo Hall, which is a huge -- if you've ever been there, it's a huge convention center -- was just covered with the quilt. It was a very moving moment for me when I realized each one of these squares represents someone who's died. And usually, a gay person who died, at that point. That was also the sadness, that a minority community was being hit so hard by this virus. Anyway, so I came here in eighty-nine. It was also a time of great community energy. There was a lot of energy going on here in the Lehigh Valley that you just -- lots of coalition building. Lots of making connections, doing stuff together, writing grants together. Unusual bed partners: the Red Cross, the Episcopal Church, and -- Fighting AIDS Continually Together would do stuff. As I remember, it was an exciting time in a way because I saw so many people coming forward, and so much effort and energy that was having some effect happening. When I got to the Lehigh Valley, it was much more -- engaged me much more because there were actually people here that had HIV/AIDS and people that needed help. I mean, and it was lots of things that they needed. It was like some of them just needed food, and some of them needed healthcare. Some of them needed housing. Because there was no safety net from Washington at the time or Harrisburg, really. It was a very hopeful time. While it was sad and this was a tragic thing going on, a lot of innovative things were being done, especially -- the church had a chance to really be a partner with groups that they wouldn't have had partnerships with otherwise, and make friends, and show them the church wasn't -- I mean, it was -- religious communities weren't all great at the time, as you know. There was a lot of fear in churches. There was a lot of blaming. Seeing it as a class issue as opposed to a virus. And by class, I mean a category of people. And so, I think that was one of the things that was so amazing to me, is how much we cooperated with one another. I wrote grants. I was a grant writer for the Diocese. I wrote grants for the AIDS Services Center. I wrote grants for FACT. I wrote grants for AIDS outreach. LB: What were the grants for? What did they -- TSA: General programming. I mean, they were for what they needed. Basically, for services to people with HIV and AIDS. And it was at that time that I met Rose Craig and became actually good friends with her. And she was a great ally, being at the Red Cross I think at the time. And David -- I forget his last name -- at Lehigh Valley Hospital. LB: David Moyer? TSA: He was a vice president up there. Jo Clare Hartsig with (inaudible) of the homeless. LB: You just stopped for a minute. You said Jo Clare Hart-- TSA: Joe Clare Hartsig was at Center City Ministries, which was the standing homeless shelter here, which no longer exists. But she got involved because many of the people who came to her shelter were also HIV positive or having just full-blown symptoms of AIDS. And so, she got involved in stuff. Billy Leh. Real involved with him as his -- working on projects together, Rob-Win Press, with that. And then Linda Lobach at the time. She's got another last name now. But anyway, Linda at AIDS Outreach, which was started actually at Grace Episcopal Church. She was an Episcopalian. And of course, another Episcopalian became the director of the AIDS Services Center, was Dixie White. There was this explosion of cooperation, advocacy, concern. We spoke with a pretty loud voice when we all spoke together. We spoke in a louder voice than we would've spoken had we spoken individually. For me, it was a great honor and privilege to be connected in a network with these people, who were all bright and articulate people that had a lot on the ball. And thank God. And then we tried to start, as you may remember, the Gilead House, which was supposed to be the Lehigh Valley version of Rainbow House in Berks County. And Kit Hower headed that project up. And that didn't have a long life, mainly because some of the times, I hate -- and I'll say this, and you can edit this out -- but sometimes, once the hospitals saw they could make money on something, they withdrew support of the community project and started offering it themselves. LB: I know that's true. TSA: Right after we started the Transitional Living Center down here in Fountain Hill, which was for -- wasn't exactly for people with HIV, but it was for people that -- and it wasn't -- what we discovered is we found out about a lot of underserved people in general, who were being released from hospitals that had no place to live. People that lived alone, who had to give themselves eye drops. They couldn't manage that. Or give themselves some kind of complicated medication that involved maybe injection or IV. And so, we started the Transitional Living Center down here in Fountain Hill, and wrote grants, and got it going for people that were released from hospitals. And it also would include people with HIV and AIDS, who were treated and then released. And many of them, because they had become unemployed, lost their employment, had become homeless. And so, it was a sad time on that level. But we tried to make up for it in the Lehigh Valley. There was a great deal of compassion here at the time, and a great deal of understanding about how people became homeless because they had an HIV diagnosis. We had to fight a lot of fear in the culture because like this pandemic, we didn't know everything about it. We didn't know everything, how it was transmitted. I mean, there was a time we had no idea how it was transmitted. LB: Yeah, it took years. TSA: We suspected, but we didn't have solid proof that kissing someone would not give you HIV. So, anyway... LB: People still say that now. TSA: Really? LB: People still will describe certain circumstances, and they'll talk about it, and (inaudible) at the same risk as needle sharing or at the same risk as anal sex. You could say, well, you could get it from this, this, this, and this, or anal sex, or needle sharing. I'm thinking yeah, well the first two, I mean, there is no statistical circumstance where anyone has ever gotten it that way. TSA: And in our church tradition, communion is so important that we had to do a lot of stuff with the church about communion, about how you couldn't -- finally, we got doctors to come out and say, "You cannot get this from the common cough. Period." You can't. Unless you're doing something else at the altar rail besides taking communion, you can't get HIV. (laughs) LB: You still can't, even if you are. You still can't because once you have -- TSA: Unless you're engaging in unseemly behavior in church, you can't get it at church. And that was one of the things that we were fighting, is that prejudice and that fear in the culture. Because one of the blocks, as you know, to getting people to buy onto, and volunteer, and giving money to HIV as service groups was to relieve them of fear of a lot of the fear they had. So one of the big things that we did in the Episcopal diocese that we did ecumenically, actually -- it wasn't just us, but it was kind of spearheaded by us -- but it was the healing -- we had that first healing service at the cathedral. I don't know if you remember it. But it was at the cathedral and we did it for a couple of years or three years. Then it kind of died out because it wasn't needed. As with a lot of things that you do, things take on a life of their own, and they outlive their time, and it just kind of dies this really sad death at the end. Because for what it was started for, there's no longer a need. I remember that first thing. The bishop, Mark Dyer, was the celebrant. And we got the guy in New York that Cousin Bobby was about. I don't know if you remember Cousin Bobby. It was about Jonathan Demme's cousin, who was an Episcopal priest in Manhattanville that was doing a really active ministries with people with HIV. In fact, helped start that hotel there down in Christopher Street that was pretty much a residence for people with HIV, which started to expand rather quickly to not just gay people, but straight people too, particularly in areas like New York. Cousin Bobby was the preacher. I can't remember his name. We wanted to let people with HIV and AIDS know that we would touch them, that we would actually touch them, that they can take communion with us, and we're not going to be afraid of you, and we want you not to be afraid of us. And so, that was the big message that we were trying to put forth in that service. And I remember that it was packed. I mean, there was not a seat left in the room, mainly because allies -- a lot of allies came. Once again, all these organizations that were in relationship from one another would support each other in that kind of thing. I would encourage people to go to FACT events from the Episcopal Church. I'd advertise the summer games, and the Snowball, and things like that. It was a ton of great cooperation that I haven't seen a lot since, although I'm seeing it again with the Black Lives Matter movement now. But there was great cooperation in the Lehigh Valley. LB: When we compare this to COVID, we have to remember we've only been dealing with COVID-19 for about four or five months, or six months. We're not talking about by nineteen eighty-nine, people in the Lehigh Valley had been working to codify our community for four years. But when you had that big healing service, where was it? TSA: It was at the Cathedral Church of the Nativity down here. I'll never forget this. This was great. At the time, they were just drag queens. Now we probably call them transgender people: men who dress like women, but not all the time. Anyway, but they came dolled up, their wigs, everything. Looking very conservative, but they weren't like they were going to go on stage at The Stonewall or anything. And I remember one going up at the time of laying on the hands of healing, one going up. And I think Dixie and I were sitting together maybe at that. I don't remember. But I remember her leaning over to me, and say, "I wonder if the bishop realizes that the woman that he's laying hands on is not a woman." (laughs) I said, "You know, it doesn't matter." She's still getting healing. LB: Because those people were cross-dressers. They really were not trans people. They weren't transgender people who were living their lives as women. They were people who were -- TSA: These were cross-dressers, yeah. LB: -- who would dress as women. That was a really big contingency of people at Renaissance early on. And I remember that some of the first work that we did was in that community as well. Yeah, that was pretty interesting. TSA: I mean, Billy Leh was about the most secular person I've ever met in my life. And he came up to me and said how meaningful that that service was at the end of it for him, that we were touching, embracing everyone, not caring what your HIV status was. And offer you communion. We will drink after you. It was very powerful at the time in nineteen ninety-one, ninety, ninety-one maybe. But it was also trying to be a message to the churches that you don't have to be afraid either. There's not this huge outbreak of HIV afterwards. LB: Of course, with COVID-19, it's a different story. TSA: That's a different story. Absolutely. But we're kind of in that same place where we're not sure. We don't know. We don't have a really good personality profile on this virus yet. LB: That's true. TSA: And there was a point we didn't really have that for HIV either. We didn't know exactly what was going to happen, how it -- if it would mutate, how it would mutate. Would it get better? Would it get worse? Will the antivirals that we come up with still be effective in two or three years? There were all those questions back then, I remember. But still, we persevered. We persisted. LB: Did you have any friends that were -- that you knew well that were HIV positive that went through this time, or are still around, or whatever? TSA: Yeah. Well, everyone that I met who was HIV positive I met through my work, or being social in the gay community, or hanging out, and volunteering, and doing volunteer work at the AIDS Services Center. I didn't have a lot of close social friends, if that's what you're asking. But I've had close social friends die since then, who were HIV positive, and had it for a long time, and long-term survivors, and had other underlying conditions that wasn't good to have with HIV. I remember David Houseknecht. And what a character he was. And I remember our bishop. The house of bishops in the Episcopal Church, the presiding bishop told each one of the bishops in the house of bishops that he wanted them to go back to their diocese, and befriend and make a -- work on a friendship with someone with HIV/AIDS. And so, our bishop did that. And the person he chose was David Houseknecht. And Bishop Mark would visit him, and call him, and stay in touch with him. That's kind of one of the remarkable things that happened at the time, Liz, that just -- unexpected relationships grew up that, except for this disease, otherwise wouldn't have happened. LB: The Episcopal Church really rose to this occasion, and I think there were a lot of people that sort of shifted their allegiances from other denominations to get into -- become Episcopalians because of this. It was remarkable because several people that I've interviewed have said, "Well, the Episcopal Church was really different compared to the other churches, other church involvement." TSA: And I wonder about that, of why that was, and I'm not quite sure why that was. But I think part of it was we were such an urban church. Our strength is really in cities. And I think probably the first wave of people with HIV were members of those congregations who had to get over it real quick to minister to them, and had to learn real quick how to minister to them and how to -- and that this was something that they weren't getting support for in the general culture. Maybe that's why it was. I don't know. I don't know. But it was definitely a time that our church really became anti -- I don't know how to say it -- anti-homophobic. I don't know. Well, it wasn't just homophobia. Treating them like lepers. We decided that Jesus didn't treat lepers like they couldn't be touchable, so why should we? I think that was it. But then also, the time I'll never forget, Peter Helt was the pastor up at the MCC church. LB: Yeah, before Beth Goudy. TSA: Yeah. And I remember going to a dinner at Linda Lobach's house, and having -- because of that dinner, becoming friends with him, and was glad to know that he was ministering to gay people that wouldn't step foot into a traditional church. Those are the kind of connections that were invaluable. And I could refer people to him too that I knew weren't going to come to the Episcopal Church and sit through an hour and a half service, not knowing that they were really welcome. I'm enough of an evangelist as a Christian. I want them to become Christians. So I sent them up to Peter. But it was really a time too that I think we had to really get over fear, prejudice. And folded into that, which was a blessing, was homophobia. I think if it weren't for the AIDS/HIV crisis, we wouldn't have heard the stories of gay people that moved us so much. Even though we were clear that gay people weren't the only ones getting it, they were really the first wave to get it. Gay men particularly. And people got to hear their stories, see them as human beings, have compassion for them. And then following up from there, why aren't we ordaining them? Why can't they be ordained? And that came out of that, really. LB: Oh, that's interesting. TSA: It did unlock the stories of gay people in a way that nothing else had before that. LB: When you were talking about Gilead House and that was a -- where -- was that a place? Where was it? TSA: It was a place. We got a place over at the old Allentown State Hospital. They gave us one of the buildings. Of course, we thought, oh, this is great. Well, then we went in there and found out that we had to remediate half the building because the floor and the ceiling were asbestos. LB: Made of asbestos, yes. TSA: Anyway, we were like -- LB: Having been there empty, they can't even tear them down. They'd kill everybody by just tearing them down. TSA: Well, they had to remediate Martin Tower for that reason before they blew it up. They had to spend all that money getting the asbestos out of Martin Tower because all of that stuff would be aerosolized when they blew it up. LB: That's why it stood there vacant for so long. That building that we were going to have for the community center that's on Turner Street turned out to be totally made of asbestos. And we would say what needs to be done to that building is to tear it down, but they can't tear it down because the cost of tearing it down is worse than just leaving it there. TSA: Well, and the health danger. All that dust flying over the city and into windows. LB: You can't just go and tear this thing down. You've got to put it in a giant plastic bag and then carefully take it apart. TSA: Well, we thought that was a great thing at first. And then we found out about the asbestos problem. And of course, we were trying to get personal care home licensure. We did do some remediation. We wrote some grants. Rose was on the board, actually, of that. Because we really wanted to have a home where people with HIV could go, whose families didn't feel like they could manage them. Because as you know, at the time, there weren't the pharmaceuticals and the antivirals that we have now. And it was a debilitating and withering disease. And eventually, you would -- you couldn't even go to the bathroom by yourself. People had to make everything you ate and bring it to you. You weren't able to do any of that. So that was the need at the time, which thankfully was not as much of a need shortly after its demise. We only had one person in Gilead House. Only had one person. Well, and this is, once again, the hospitals realizing, oh my God, we can get money for having a HIV floor and putting on the floor. Okay. And so, then when they realized they can make money off of it and get third-party payments, which is how we were going to support the Gilead House. We were completely undercut by the hospitals on that. LB: I had an interview with Bill Aull, who was really involved with Rainbow House. And there was such a significant community building feeling with regard to Rainbow House that -- I mean, I want to steer you into saying something about the fact that when a hospital takes over something that's run by a minority group, things are different. TSA: They are different. You don't have to steer me that way. I think when you have people whose primary concern is running a place to make money off of it, as opposed to people that are running the place to care for people, the quality is different. And it begs the question, had we not done the Transitional Living Center, had we not done Gilead House, would the hospitals have done what they did? We were kind of the canary in the mineshaft, and they said, "Oh, wait a minute. If Medicaid or Blue Cross Blue Shield is going to pay for them to be in these places, or the state's going to give us money for that, why can't we do that?" I think it really spurred them on to do what they did. But as you say, the quality is very different. And I know people were well taken care of at the Transitional Living Center, which was pretty full from the minute it opened. LB: Where was that? TSA: That was here in Fountain Hill. I forget what street it's on. It's not far from where I'm sitting. There's Old Silk Mill that we got a piece of. And it had rooms. It had probably about eight or ten rooms and a kind of a nursing station, so there was medical access to people. You could see all the doors and all the rooms. What's that street north of me? I'll think of it in a minute. I think that one of the things that we did in that period was we made the culture start responding, albeit not with the same caring touch that we had. No question about that. Another remarkable thing of the time is that nonprofits, churches, were stepping up immediately to deal with the people and the needs of these people who were diagnosed with a disease. It wasn't a plague. It was a disease like cancer or anything else. We did, I think, remarkable work on very little. It was kind of like some projects were like stone soup. Okay, I have this idea. Okay, well, we can do this piece of it, but we probably need someone to do this piece. Well, you know what? We've got the infrastructure to do that piece of it. That's kind of how a lot of the things have happened. And I remember that there was energy, enthusiasm, support, particularly in the gay community at the time. It was a galvanizing force in the gay community. It was like you had a common enemy. Nothing galvanizes people more than having a common enemy. LB: That's so true. TSA: And the enemy was multi-fraught. It was prejudice, and discrimination in the culture. It was the medical community and providing services. It was we can't let our brothers and sisters languish. We've got to do something. We can't just sit by and watch this happen. There was a lot of energy around that. LB: That's a good point. That's a good way of framing it, I think, the common enemy thing. I think that's the way maybe we need to frame COVID-19 because I don't think people understand that as much. We need to say that's the enemy. The illness is the enemy. The pandemic is about that. It's not about the (inaudible). The enemy isn't the mask. TSA: The problem we have in this culture, and it happened with HIV and AIDS too, is things get politicized right away. It's like you're a red state ; you don't wear a mask. If you're a blue state, you wear masks. Well, that's ridiculous. And Ronald Reagan -- you know how he was. Ronald and Nancy? They didn't want anything to do with AIDS/HIV. LB: These archives will really put -- will give people an opportunity because these will be archived at Muhlenberg College, and people will be able to access these online and stuff. Thirty years from now, the way history will be written is Ronald Reagan was a beloved, moderate Republican president and was still, for the LGBT community -- we're like wait a minute. That was not what was happening. TSA: I thought George W. Bush was the worst president in history until -- I'd love to have George W. Bush back now. (laughter) I'll take him back in a minute. LB: But I don't think people always understand that when you're talking about Ron and Nancy Reagan and what they did or what they wouldn't do -- and so, talk about that a little bit. I think everybody was aware of -- TSA: Well, I think what the result of that was ACT UP. I mean, people just had to go to the streets because of the ignorance, because of the lack of response from the national government, and the lack of compassion coming out of the White House seemingly. ACT UP had to be in your face, and they were until people -- until political leaders were afraid of ACT UP. They didn't want ACT UP to show up at their office doing some kind of demonstration because it would not be -- it would be pretty explicit if they did. The phenomenon that I saw was that the Reagans were singularly unhelpful for a period. They came around, but begrudgingly. Here's the other thing. It also tied to homophobia. It was interlinked with homophobia with just -- initially, anyway. And thank God straight people started getting HIV because then it's like, oh, they're not gay and they got HIV. Oh, this must be a disease. This was not a gay thing. And of course, gay people always get politicized still. People vote for Donald Trump because he's going to put Supreme Court justices that are going to limit transgender rights or repeal same sex marriage. I just have one, two words for them: stare decisis. We've already done that, man. We can't keep spinning that wheel. That was -- been decided. But I do think that it was a lot of things going on like that at the time. I mean, I remember ACT UP, I think, was compliments of Ronald Reagan. If we hadn't had Ronald Reagan's response, people wouldn't have felt the frustration that they had to go out and set their hair on fire in public to get attention and say this is worthy of public funding, and public research, and public attention. LB: Did you go to any of those ACT UP things? TSA: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. There weren't many in the Lehigh Valley, as I recall. I don't think. But I went to one in Philadelphia, and it was in front of City Hall, actually. But being in the church, I had to -- well, I wanted to engage my own folks in a way. I spent my energy trying to engage people who claimed the Christian faith to actually claim the Christian faith, and to be what they said they were, and to give them opportunities to show that towards people with HIV and AIDS, and inviting them into that. Because Martin Luther King, he -- I think one of the things I've noticed that -- a lot of people have read King, but not thoroughly. And one of the things that I'll never forget -- and this was when I was involved in the anti-nuclear movement in Connecticut when was in seminary -- but we did demonstrations up there where we actually were arrested. But Martin Luther King always said that whatever public demonstration you do, you always have to have an element of it be an invitation for those who witness it to join you. You cannot create a demonstration to be intentionally off-putting, which I've always thought was really good advice. It's got to be non-violent, and it's got to be an invitation to people to join you, not to reject you. LB: Trish and I were just in a pride parade in Amelia Island, Florida last year at this time actually. It was their first pride festival, their first parade. They have a little park there. It was about eight-hundred people there all together. It was small. It's a small place though. The first thing we did was we paraded down the street a few blocks, maybe five or six blocks. And we came back up, passed by the Episcopal Church. All these people, they were the mom and dad's brigades, and they were coming out and hugging everybody. It was really wonderful. It was some church. But the church didn't participate, but the congregation did. It was sort of interesting. There's someone in the congregation that organized people to do this thing. But one of the things that Trish and I were doing -- we were near the front of the parade -- is that every time we walked by and we would see people that were clearly LGBT standing on the side of the road, and we would -- or even just people who had -- and they were cheering and they had -- and we would say, "Come on. Come on. Come and do this." Because sometimes, they feel like, well, I'm not part of that particular group. And we would say to them, "Come out to be with us and walk with us. We want you in our group." And I think that that was a great thing. People are still doing that today. That was a significant thing. What other organizations were you involved with? Were you part of the Gay Men's Chorus? I don't remember whether you were part of that now. TSA: No, I wasn't. We started Integrity at the time. LB: Oh, right. Of course. Yeah. TSA: Which was the Episcopalian LGBT organization, which is now -- well, I'm declaring it defunct. I've got to go close our bank account. We don't need it anymore. We don't need it. And that's a good thing. We won. We won. LB: If you have any leftover money, I know someplace that you could donate the money to. TSA: Oh, no, no. We're donating it to the Bradbury-Sullivan Center for the Dixie White room. LB: Yes, okay. Definitely do that. TSA: It's not a lot of money. I warn you. It's like two or three-hundred bucks. LB: That's terrific. We're about a little bit less than six-hundred dollars -- three-thousand six-hundred dollars from the goal. We're doing really well with that. It's very significant. TSA: And what room is it? LB: We haven't decided. That will be something that Dixie's folks and other contributors and stuff can decide. There's a lot of different options, as far as that goes. TSA: While Dixie was still alive, Dixie and I, and David Moyer were about the last three standing people that could still -- were still vertical that -- LB: Well, now there's two of you. TSA: Yes, and now there's only two of us left. But anyway, we did say we're going to close this account because Dixie was very concerned that we not just let this money languish and just put it in a checking account. It's a little of it. We need to put it towards something. And I suggested that we send it to the Bradbury-Sullivan Center in thanksgiving for the ministry that Integrity had. And we had a good ministry for a few years. It was really good. LB: I used to advertise it in the paper. TSA: Yeah. And we provided affirmation and a safe place for gay Episcopalians to be and know they weren't alone. That was really great. But we started that. That came out of that. I think there was a clergy group that Ann Hughie may have convened that I was part of. Donna [Seepley?], Nancy Adams, Jo Clare, me, Peter Helt. God, these are old history names, aren't they? LB: There's a guy at Saint John's Lutheran who was (inaudible). TSA: Yeah, Tim. No, no, no. He was at the UCC church. But that was the other thing, is getting -- doing education for clergy about -- so they could assure their congregations that they could have communion. Because it would scare people if you say, "We don't know if anyone in this room is HIV positive or not." They don't care. And they'd say, "Oh, yeah. It bothers me. I'm not going to take communion." And people thought by dipping their wafer they were going to be avoiding that bad germ floating around in the wine or something. I don't know. Rather than sipping from the cup. Whatever you need to do. And some people stopped taking the cup for a while. They just took the bread. So we had to do a lot of education with clergy, not just Episcopal clergy, but ecumenically. Presbyterians, Methodists, UCCs, Mennonites. Of course, Roberta Kreider was doing a lot of work with the Mennonites. And she was kind of doing this underground Mennonite gay ministry. LB: Was that then? TSA: She was starting it then, I think. LB: Cool. TSA: It was just before I left. That was starting to happen just before I left. I went to North Carolina from here. I was kind of burnt out after six years of just being on a treadmill, and I wanted to go to a little Southern sleepy town and be the rector for them, just be a priest for a while. LB: Where did you go? TSA: I went to Pittsboro, North Carolina, which is twenty miles south of Chapel Hill. But that's a whole other story. That was not a good idea on my part. But anyway... LB: It's interesting that you have this idea that it's going to be like Mayberry, and then you look underneath, and you say, "Oh, wait." Look in the closet of those guys in Mayberry and there's a bunch of white robes hanging up in there." TSA: Well, I told somebody, "I'm on the diocese in anti-racial and social -- and racial justice committee here in the diocese now." And I was telling them about my past and that when I was rector of that church, the Daughters of the Confederacy invited me to give an opening prayer for their centennial meeting, which was a big deal. Culturally, that was a big deal. I struggled with doing it. They were asking me because Saint Bartholomew's is one of the oldest churches in town, and a lot of the glorious dead were buried in our church yard. So anyway, I went down, and it was real creepy. The place was decorated in red, white, and blue, but there were the -- there was the Confederate flag everywhere. But the Daughters of the Confederacy are singularly responsible for most of those monuments in the South. These women baked pies and raised money for that statue of General Jubilation T. Cornpone in the (laughs) -- LB: Well, and I raised the money, and I think people don't quite understand that those statues were just being bulk produced. They were spitting out one after the other. They all looked exactly the same: Stonewall Jackson, Robert E. Lee, a couple of other generals, Jefferson Davis. They didn't have any artistic value. They weren't put up as a monument for a specific battle that happened. It was just absolutely created as a white supremacy -- TSA: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. LB: -- thing. TSA: I was not a racist, but I didn't know enough not to be anti-racist. And there's a difference. I mean, I grew up in the South. I had a Confederate flag in my bedroom as a teenager. My parents didn't see anything wrong with that. I didn't either. We're related to the Lee family, the Robert E. Lee family. We're related to his brother, actually. But when the Sons of the Confederacy found that out, boy, howdy, they came and got me and wanted me to be a member of the Sons of the Confederacy. I'm like, "I'm really busy here at Saint Bartholomew's. I can't join one more organization." But both of the Sons and the Daughters of the Confederacy had chapters in Pittsboro. It was crazy time. It was crazy time. And here's this guy that came from the activist northeast. I'd just done all this stuff, as you heard, with AIDS and gay people, and stuff. There was some backwardness in the town, no doubt. But fortunately, a lot of my -- it was an Episcopal church. And so, there was a huge retirement community nearby called Farrington, and a lot of my parishioners came from there, and they had moved down from New Jersey. There was a level of sophistication in my congregation that was saving for me. I wasn't stuck with just southern ethos. There was a little more progressiveness going on. LB: Twenty miles from Chapel Hill means you're twenty miles from the university too. TSA: Right, right. And we had people that worked at the university in the congregation. And it was a place for cheap land if you wanted to build a house, and people did. It's in Chatham County, which is south of Orange County, which is the county that Chapel Hill is in. But it was -- LB: How long were you there? TSA: I was there for four years. LB: And then you came back here? Directly to here? TSA: Yes, came back directly to here. Came back here again. LB: Did they provide you with a church? I don't know how this works, so I'm not really -- TSA: No. Oh, coming back here? LB: Yeah. TSA: No, I was unemployed. I left that church under, let's just say, stressful circumstances. As you know, I was married and have two children. And actually, my involvement in HIV/AIDS movement and interaction with the gay community started making me ask questions and be honest to me about myself, and stuff that I was terrified to face, and did everything I could, including getting married, not to face. But I came out in the wrong place, which was down there. You can bleep this, but it was an S show, as you can imagine. LB: Bleep it. I love this kind of stuff. If you want to take these things out, you certainly can. But don't think that you need to do that, Scott, because, believe me, this is [nothing?]. TSA: I don't want to scandalize people. But it was a shit show. Let me just tell you that. It was awful. And the bishop didn't know what to do. And he was coming down to retirement. He was in his last lap, not wanting to deal with this. And there was a lot of scandal and rumor that wasn't true that was going around about my behavior, and that I was an alcoholic sitting in the house with my -- the gun in one hand and a bottle of vodka in another. It was crazy stuff. And I'm like, "What?" It just opened a floodgate of homophobia that I didn't think existed. LB: I think that often happens with people who are tangential to the community. I have two friends who were going to adopt. They were a lesbian couple, and they were going to adopt a baby. The adoption agency said, "It would be a good idea for you to be a member of a progressive -- a church that was a progressive church." So they went to the church in their neighborhood that was the denomination they were very comfortable with. I think it was the Church of Christ. And they went in, and this was in New Jersey. And they explained their situation. But they said, "Look, we don't really want to come out to everybody right away. We're not out like that in the neighborhood. We're going to have a child. We'll ease into it. We need to know people, et cetera, et cetera. But please be discreet about this and don't tell everybody." TSA: Oh, God. LB: They've already filled out the forms to go into the position of becoming a member of the church. And the next day, they go in there, and some really well-meaning clerk in the office there said, "Everybody's so excited that we're going to have a lesbian couple." And they're like, "Whoa. You told everybody at the church before we even got there?" What happens sometimes is a very, very caring, well-meaning straight person, who has no idea what kind of world of discrimination happened to LGBT people -- that was before could get married -- they were relatively new to the community -- thinking we're just -- I'm one-hundred percent supportive of you. You seem like a nice group of people. Why would people be negative toward you? And they (inaudible) into two-hundred people in one day. TSA: Well, I was sent off for psychiatric evaluation, which was like what? They sent me to Minnesota. In all of this retrospective, it turned out for good. There was grace in all of this because the guy in Minnesota, who was my -- the psychiatrist who was overseeing my -- I had to do the Wassermann test, and the MMPI again, and all that stuff. But he turned out to be a guy -- a gay man, who said, "The bishop wants to defrock you." I said, "Why? I've done nothing wrong except announce the divorce from my wife, and trying to be honest about myself at the same time, and trying to be discreet about it as much as possible. But that's obviously not going to happen." And so, he said, "I think I can get your bishop to back down with this. Are you willing not to work in the church for a few months?" I said, "Absolutely." I said, "It's like an attorney. You can lose your practice. You don't want to lose your license. And being what we call deposed is losing your license, and I'm fine not to have my practice for a while." He says, "What are you going to do?" I said, "I'm going to move back to Bethlehem. I own a house in Bethlehem and the tenants are really bad, so I feel no compunction giving them eviction notices. And they're four months behind in rent anyway. And I'm going to move back there. And he says, "Well, you know, one of my best friends is a therapist in Bethlehem." It was John Falbo. I don't know if you remember John Falbo. LB: Oh, of course I know John Falbo. TSA: But this guy in Minnesota -- LB: (inaudible) around, isn't he? TSA: -- hit me up to be probably condemned by him and said that he's a raving lunatic. Don't let him be a priest anymore. Sent me to John Falbo, who was the best thing for me. LB: Oh, yeah. No, I recommended a hundred people to John. And it was such a shock when he died. TSA: He died too soon. What happened? That was awful. LB: I'll tell you. He died after a huge snowstorm. I think he was out there shoveling snow. TSA: Oh, God. LB: He had a massive heart attack, and frankly, what would cause that? It was a blizzard day, and that night, he died. And I think that's what it was. I think he was outside. I really think that's what it was. I'm just guessing about that. I mean, he wasn't in the hospital or anything. He just had a heart attack and died. And I had literally dozens of people calling me up saying, "You need to refer me to another openly gay therapist in Bethlehem." I said, "Well, I'm sorry. But I don't have anybody." And it's been what, three years? And I still don't have anybody. And I just got another call from somebody who said, "I really need somebody that's more -- that's a man." Really what they were saying is, "I need a man." This is a woman. And she was lesbian, and she said, "I need a man to be in this position for me." And I just don't have anybody. I don't know. TSA: He was a lifesaver for me, and I was with him for three or four years, decreasingly seeing him. But when I first got here, I saw him about every couple weeks. I mean, no one was more helpful to me in coming out than John. He was great. But that's another story. And when you do the people's coming out story video, I'll be in that if you'd like. Because I have a hellacious story. Everything awful that could happen to you as an Episcopal priest happened to me. The only fault of mine is coming out as a gay man. LB: Mary Foltz at Lehigh University is doing a series of archive videos of people in the community. She's done Harold and Roberta Kreider, and they had ten people. And I contributed. They could only do ten people. That was the first grant. And they're still working on this, and there's going to be more money to do this. But the first grant was to do ten people, and I said, "Well, you got to do Harold and Roberta. They're in their mid-nineties. Hurry." And I said to do Dixie, and they were set to do her, and then she died. And it was so -- such a shame. TSA: That's such a loss. LB: I'll do Charlie Versaggi later today, and then I will have ten of these HIV/AIDS interviews. And every single person has mentioned Dixie White. I mean, she was so essential in that early (inaudible). TSA: Well, she had the AIDS Services Center at a critical time. That makes perfect sense to me that they would mention her, and as well as Linda Lobach and Rose Craig. Those were some always people that had -- were big noises in the AIDS community at the time. Absolutely. LB: So there will be more, and I will suggest that they interview you because I work with Mary. She's going to interview me tomorrow. I think that's one of the last ones. And I said, "Honey, you got to give me more than one day." They're like, "You can do this in ninety minutes." I'm like, "No way in hell. I can't even do five years in ninety minutes." TSA: That's funny. Well, I think back on those times as -- they weren't dark days for me. They were good days, as far as working with the HIV/AIDS stuff. They were full of hope, and there was joy in it. There was sadness. People died and we were sad about that. No question about that. But there was also equal and opposite joy and feeling of community and support that I haven't felt like that since really. Maybe a little bit I'm feeling with the Black Lives Matter movement now, but it's starting to feeling a little more like that. But it was just all of the breakthroughs that we made at those times in the -- and really had to break through a lot of prejudice and misinformation, just like now. I mean bleach and lights in your body, and things like that. I was like, "No, no, no. That's not going to take care of this." LB: We had really good local leadership. We had a common enemy. And here's another thing, Scott: we were a lot younger. TSA: Oh, hell yes. I can't imagine myself doing now what I did then. I just can't imagine it. The Summer Games, the FACT games, were always on Sunday, which was hard for me because I had to do church somewhere. But I remember Saturday, there was something, and then Sunday, I had to do church. And then I got right in the car, pretty much changed while driving up thirty-three in my car, and attended the FACT games and was at an information table there. That was it. The reason I was going is I was going to stand at a -- I think it was the AIDS Services Center information table or something. I didn't think of it at the time. Now, I'm like, oh my God. I'd no more do that now than fly to the moon. LB: Yeah, we did a lot of hard work in those days. We're still doing it. TSA: We're still doing it. Well, we can be the elders that give wise advice now. LB: And have people not listen to us. TSA: Well, we've got some wisdom. We've got some scars here and there, and some places that still hurt that we can talk about. LB: That's true. Let's see. I know that you're busy and you've got some stuff that's coming up really soon. I always ask people if they had been in a situation where they were caring for anybody with HIV, where you had to go and bring them food or care people like that. TSA: Not on a consistent basis, no. Because you have to remember I had a young family then. LB: Oh, that's true. TSA: I had little kids. In addition to doing my day job, I had a night job of being a father, and doing laundry, and do things like giving baths, and things like that. And that was important to me, to be present to my kids, even though I would leave early in the morning sometimes. And sometimes, I had night meetings. They didn't see me until the next morning because they'd gone to bed by the time I got home. Or I saw them briefly at dinner and had to run out to a meeting at seven o'clock or something. So, no. My only really tangential work in that direction was taking meals with Dixie to David Houseknecht and visiting him with her when she took -- LB: I didn't know him. I mean he was obviously a (inaudible). TSA: He was one of the first people diagnosed. He was a character. He was flamboyantly gay. Flamboyantly gay. He wore clothes like I have on, and then he'd have a yellow feather boa that he'd wear. He always had some accessory on that was outlandish, or long earrings that dangled and stuff. And it was clearly women's earrings. These weren't like Mr. Clean little gold things. These were dangly, sparkly things. So, yeah. He was one of the people that was first. I don't remember a lot about his story, where he came from. He was from this area. Of course, Houseknecht is not an unusual name in this area. But he had been involved in something. Dixie adored him, and it took a lot for Dixie to adore you. Dixie didn't have a long adore list. LB: I knew Dixie pretty well. I know what you mean. TSA: And usually, it was mutual, so it worked out fine. Well, as you know, I was a primary source for a David Houseknecht article on Dixie in The Bethlehem Press. There's a big article on Dixie in The Bethlehem Press, and I was a primary source. I didn't realize it, that I was going to be a primary source. But David Houseknecht was someone that she originally -- was a client of theirs at the AIDS Services Center. Since they're both dead, I don't think I am violating any HIPAA laws by saying that. I don't know. And he was the one that Mark Dyer decided to have a relationship with, and I think it's because of Linda Lobach that had -- because he was also -- Linda Lobach was very enamored of him. Her name's Eisenreich right now. She's still around. She might be a person on your list to talk because -- LB: Well I had grant funding for ten people. And you're the ninth. And I have one more. I have Charlie Versaggi later today, and then I'm going to be done. TSA: Cunningham. What was her name? LB: Vicky. TSA: No, she had a man's name I think. She had short black hair. I think she was Jewish, actually. LB: Marty? TSA: What? LB: Was it Marty or something like that? TSA: No. I'll think of it in a minute. She had a whole other ministry. I mean AIDS Outreach did material aid to people with HIV: food, medicines, connecting them to social services, things like that. Randall. No. He's a baseball -- I mean, a football player. No. But she did a spiritual -- just did spiritual stuff. Just did prayer services, coached clergy on dealing pastorally with people in their congregations that had people with HIV and the kind of concerns that they might want to be looking out for and being sensitive to. And also, having them know the referral points, where if they hear this need, you send them to this person. So it was making them a better helper to people in their congregations. What was her name? Bernie maybe. Bernie Cunningham. I think that was her name. LB: That makes sense. I didn't know her. TSA: She wrote several editorials in The Morning Call, as I recall. Bernadette Cunningham. That was her name. And they called her Bernie. Bernadette Cunningham. She was a very striking looking woman: tall, thin, kind of Sinead O'Connor hair. LB: Was she a minister? TSA: I don't know. Like I said, she's Jewish, and Jews are less I guess clergy focused than a lot of places -- I mean, a lot of religions. I mean, they have rabbis of course. But you don't have to be seminary educated to be a rabbi. So she could've been. But I never heard anyone refer to her as rabbi. But she did a lot of work at Temple of Peace in Easton. I think that's the name of the Temple there. So she was another character that was in the mix. But David Houseknecht was a favorite of Dixie's and a favorite of Linda Lobach's, which meant he got a lot of attention from both AIDS service organizations. So whenever he lifted his little finger to want, one of them provided it for him. He was a spoiled brat of the people with HIV (inaudible). And he was also witty and smart. Also, the Rodale's involvement too. I don't know if anybody's talked about that. LB: I interviewed Maria Rodale on Monday. TSA: Okay, good. Good. LB: And I talked to her about her brother and then about her mother, and it was interesting. I mean Ardath Rodale's extraordinary. I'm very happy about her because she had a different take on it. TSA: And she was great. I had several interactions with her, as you can imagine. I was always wanted to just touch the hem of her garment because she was such a wonderful person. It just brought out the best in the community. It brought out goodness in people that didn't have an opportunity to be brought out until that crisis in a way that I don't COVID-19 doing yet. LB: It's only been four months. Five months. TSA: I know. Well and truth is, we never came up with an HIV vaccine. I mean, that's the thing. It's funny how the language has come back to me because we were always talking about viral load, T cells. All of that language is back. All of that language is back. And the ELISA test. LB: I don't know about that. What was that? TSA: The ELISA test was the second -- if you -- the first one was a simple test that would say if you're HIV positive or HIV negative. But it had a lot of false negatives and false positives. Particularly if you were positive, they'd send your blood to a second test, which is a little more specific because the first one -- if you had a virus like HIV but wasn't really HIV in you, it would trip the alarm on this one test. But the ELISA test was what you did for a deep analysis of your blood and the viral content of your blood. LB: I see. TSA: Many times, the ELISA test would come back as negative for people that had taken that first test and gotten a positive. I don't know why it's called ELISA, but it's called ELISA. LB: If it came back negative, that was because they didn't have it? TSA: Right. I mean, the ELISA test was authoritative, which I don't know why they didn't give that right away. But there was some reason. It may have been cost. It was a costly test. And there was a simpler test that could -- you could show symptoms of HIV and AIDS, and that first test was enough. It's clear you've got this. We don't have to go any further. But then sometimes, you would get a positive test, and you're asymptomatic, and they'd send it to the ELISA test to make sure that you had -- often, it would come back negative, saying, no, you don't have human immunodeficiency virus. But anyway, I notice a lot of the same language is happening. A lot of the same uncertainty about the personality in the virus. Are there long-term effects, even if you were asymptomatic? Do you have some kind of organ involvement and compromise because you had it? They don't know any of that yet. LB: Yeah, they don't. TSA: As we said, it's only been four months. There haven't been any longitudal studies that can be done yet. LB: We're at the last ten minutes of this. If we're thinking about how people are going to be watching this someday in the future thirty years from now, some kind of -- or more, and they're going to look back at this, and here's your chance to talk to the future. Tell them a little bit about just sort of the summation about that time in the Lehigh Valley with regard to HIV/AIDS during the height of the epidemic, and maybe some other words that you might want to toss in there. What do you think? TSA: That seems like a very heavy task, to talk to the future. But I think more what it taught me was communities can rise up together and address problems that seem insurmountable and seem bigger than us, and they can do it in a way that is phenomenal and not only helps the people with the disease, but it helps you. It helps you focus your own humanity. It helped us focus our own relational needs, our own relational -- what am I thinking of? I can't think of it. And our common humanity to be able to address something that seemed so -- and it was very frightening. A lot of misinformation. And just to keep serene during all of that and focus on the sick people. What do they need? Not answering questions about the future. Not blaming things for the past. But being present to those who had HIV and AIDS, and to advocate in governments and health systems for care, and increased services, and more useful services to these people. That really was part of it for me, just focusing on your mission. Not making your mission complicated, like I'm going to cure AIDS in the world. I am going to make life for someone with HIV living in the Lehigh Valley more tolerable, more humane, more compassionate, by golly. And whatever else is happening in the world, I can't control that. But I can control my environment, my community, and the people that affect me the most. And I can have something to say about that, and I can do something about that that's good, and positive, and makes a difference. And I think that's what the AIDS crisis taught us in the Lehigh Valley, is that we are better together than apart. We are stronger together than apart. We're actually smarter together than apart. And we can address things together that we couldn't address by ourselves. And the encouragement we gave each other too, the encouragement. That was also it too. Sure, there were moments you just wanted to just sit down, and throw up your hands, and cry or whatever. Are they ever going to get it? Are we ever going to get this resource for this person? All of that. And there was always someone there to buck you up and say, "Yeah, we're going to get it. We care a lot about that person. We care about that person, and they're going to be okay because of us. So fear not." LB: I lost you. There you are. TSA: I'm sorry. I missed that. LB: We both froze up a little bit. I said I thought that was great. We just have a couple minutes left. So I just want to thank you so much, Scott, for this (inaudible). TSA: Oh, it was my pleasure. LB: Really great. TSA: I was just remembering all the stuff and the energy then, and just -- and all the good people that -- some of them aren't with us anymore, and that makes me sad. But also, that's life, isn't it? LB: It is. And there's (inaudible) wonderful thing you've done. TSA: People that come after us are going to do phenomenal things together like we did. LB: I want to thank you personally for a couple of times when I desperately needed somebody who was wearing a minister collar to show up fast at an event. I remember when we were fighting the ordinance that time in City Hall -- TSA: I dragged Malloy. I said, "Come on, boy. We got to get up to City Hall and show -- put our mugs on the TV camera." LB: That's so great. And the look on your face. You had that great, serene look. And we were plotting out that we were going to fight this effort to repeal the ordinance, and we already had hundreds of people who were going to take their names off of the petition. The anti-guys were just petrified. We're riding up in an elevator, and I think we were with you in the elevator, and the bad guy. And he's thinking, oh, there's a guy who's a minister (inaudible). I love that. Thank you for that. That was a long time ago. Way more than twenty years ago. TSA: I'm crying thinking of that moment because it was just so moving for me to be able to be there on a moment's notice. LB: That was really something. TSA: Have collar, will show. LB: And there was television. It was television and reports, and we were saying to people things like, "These people are lying to people to get them to take their names off." And plus, I have to say, you're really eloquent. You did a terrific job on this interview. And I'm thinking, oh, yeah. Scott's really good at this. Thank you very much for doing it. TSA: Well, thank you. I've verklempt. No. But also, I remember doing that in Bethlehem too, and going to those interminable city council meetings. And it seemed like we had to go every week for four weeks. LB: Truthfully, we had to do that in Allentown too. But it's just harder to remember because it was so long ago. TSA: Oh my God. And Dixie always went. And Esther Lee was there, and I think she was begrudgingly okay with it. She's a very conservative African American woman. LB: The big difference between Allentown and Bethlehem was that when we passed Allentown's ordinance, the ordinance was already in existence, and it was passed in nineteen sixty-five to protect people based on race, religion, national religion, sex, and, I don't know, one or two other things. And so, we had to add sexual orientation, gender identity. And that's a tricky thing. And that was two-thousand and two. It actually started in 1998, and we worked all the way through two-thousand and two to actually pass it, and then we had to fight that referendum. It took seven years to put that in place, and it was really hard. But when we did the Bethlehem one and Adrian led that effort -- and Easton was a breeze -- but in Bethlehem, because of really some odd city council problems and some other issues -- but the thing about Bethlehem was that ordinance was created to -- from scratch, and it included everybody. In Allentown, it was a lot easier to say don't keep those gay people in. It's okay to protect these people but not those people. We don't need those people. We never had. Blah, blah, blah. But to say we don't want to protect anybody, and that's what they were doing in Bethlehem. And so, Esther Lee, who's the leader of the Black community -- that ordinance has protected people based on race. It was awful hard to say, well, you can protect me, but not them. TSA: And you know who the main opponent was in Bethlehem? LB: Yes, but go ahead and say. TSA: It was the Allentown diocese. LB: Yeah. So what happened was that they were really trying to manipulate people who were Catholics on council. TSA: They did. And they sent their attorney. I remember that. But I was astounded. And so, I was just like by golly, I'm wearing my collar every time, and I would stand up and I'd say, "I'm here on behalf of the Episcopal Church to support this ordinance to be added to the City of Bethlehem's ordinance and civil rights ordinance." That was the most discouraging thing about that whole situation for me, was that they were pushing one of the members had -- was thick of thieves with that. He was actually somehow on their legal team of attorneys. LB: Their legal counsel was trying to rewrite the law to have such a religious exemption that anyone could just simply say it's against my religion to do this. But they tried to write the law that way, and then I rewrote it. And I said, "Okay, this is the language we would have because churches are always exempt for any kind of thing because, after all, a church doesn't -- a Catholic church doesn't have to hire a rabbi to be the leader of the church. They get their mission church, and then that's their mission. That's perfectly fine." So I changed them to say religious entity. They said, "Any business that had a religion -- that was tied to religion." And I changed it to any church or other religious congregation or something like that. And that's the way the law was, and that's protected by the Constitution anyway. TSA: And with this COVID thing, the governors didn't close the churches. The churches closed themselves, following guidelines of the health department. We could've been keeping church open. Of course, we'd have everybody on a ventilator by now if we'd done that. But it wasn't the government that was closing the churches. Nobody got that. Churches were never closed by the government in Pennsylvania, and I don't think anywhere else. There's too many Constitutional issues with that. But they closed themselves out of protection for their people. LB: They should. TSA: And they should have. Right, exactly. LB: I know you have another gig in a couple of minutes. TSA: I know. And I have to run upstairs and see a man about a horse. But one more time, was in front of the federal courthouse. One of my favorite pictures I have of Dixie -- and you may have it -- is Dixie and I standing there with a no DOMA. LB: I told (inaudible). TSA: Yeah, you did probably. But that's one of my favorite pictures of us. It kind of encapsulates how our relationship was throughout the whole thing: no DOMA. LB: That was the picture I used for all of the mentions of her. I said, "Here's a picture of Scott." Because Dixie looked so great in that picture. TSA: She did. She looked happy. She was in her element. She was in her element, man. LB: It was a (inaudible) thing. TSA: Thank you, Liz. Namaste. LB: Thank you. I really appreciate it, Scott. You're the greatest. See you around. TSA: Yes, ma'am. Let me know how this all pans out. LB: We'll send you the transcript of this too pretty soon. TSA: Okay, great. LB: Bye-bye. TSA: Thank you. LB: Bye. END OF AUDIO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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01:34:23
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T. Scott Allen, July 2, 2020
Description
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T. Scott Allen talks about the AIDS epidemic in the Lehigh Valley of Pennsylvania. He talks about his years as an Episcopal minister and his work with AIDS Services Center, about people who had HIV/AIDS, and how churches supported people who were sick.
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PH40_11
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AIDS (Disease)
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2020-07-02
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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fe491dd4c1a1cefbae25c10e8a11542e
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: HIV/AIDS
Description
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In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Liz Bradbury
Interviewee
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Charles Versaggi
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_01.xml
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COVID-19
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5.4 July 2, 2020 Charles Versaggi, July 2, 2020 PH40_01 01:29:39 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 LGBT Community Global Pandemic AIDS Charles Versaggi Liz Bradbury video/mpeg VersaggiCharles_20200702_video.mp4 1.0:|23(4)|44(14)|85(4)|116(10)|147(12)|184(13)|243(2)|280(11)|315(9)|356(9)|397(16)|434(5)|477(4)|512(7)|537(6)|558(15)|589(7)|626(12)|655(7)|694(10)|735(6)|764(14)|797(2)|834(11)|873(8)|904(9)|943(4)|970(7)|1005(9)|1036(11)|1061(8)|1092(9)|1121(12)|1146(15)|1181(2)|1228(18)|1263(16)|1292(12)|1325(4)|1352(3)|1377(5)|1414(6)|1451(6)|1492(6)|1515(4)|1554(6)|1589(5)|1634(7)|1679(6)|1724(9)|1763(2)|1812(5)|1847(10)|1872(2)|1905(9)|1940(3)|1959(5)|1988(17)|2019(9)|2056(7)|2081(5)|2120(2)|2157(14)|2200(11)|2233(5)|2266(9)|2303(16)|2338(11)|2379(13)|2418(9)|2463(10)|2498(6)|2545(15)|2588(2)|2631(11)|2670(8)|2717(10)|2758(6)|2799(2)|2846(8)|2885(15)|2920(9)|2947(12)|2986(7)|3019(15)|3060(2)|3099(4)|3136(3)|3165(15)|3196(5) 0 https://youtu.be/SacdOzw-xsY YouTube video 0 Interview Introduction 0 193 Initial awareness of HIV/AIDS / Volunteering for the hotline LB: So, in the midst of the current public health crisis we’re experiencing, we want to take this opportunity to look back and reflect and to capture the stories of those who lived through the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic in the nineteen-eighties and the nineteen-nineties. And let’s start out with just one question I’ve been asking everybody, and that is, when were you first aware of HIV/AIDS? Do you remember that moment?
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 ; CV: The trigger moment for me was I moved into this house -- I had been living in the Valley since nineteen seventy-six, but I moved into my house here in Old Allentown in the summer of eighty-five. And shortly thereafter, I joined a community center -- now defunct, unfortunately -- called the Lambda Center, which was right up the street on Eighth and Hamilton. 0 326 The Lambda Center fading out and the AIDS Services Center forming / People involved with the AIDS hotline / Volunteer training CV: Again, this would have been in the mid-eighties -- mid-eighty-five to eighty-six, eighty-seven -- time frame. And I may be a little off on this, but I believe that hotline is what morphed into the AIDS Services Center --
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 ; LB: Oh.
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 ; CV: -- and all of those services. Now, there may be some debate about that -- but in this tired old memory of mine, there seemed -- 0 502 Experiencing people dying from AIDS LB: I talked to Bill Aull at Rainbow House --
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 ; CV: Yeah.
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 ; LB: -- and he spoke very specifically about people dying -- he was a nurse there. But for some people they were saying, “Well there were people dying, but they weren’t really people I knew very well. And yet, we were aware of it,” or, “I’d see them and then they just” -- like Nan Kozul was saying, “There would be people, and then they’d just disappear, you know. We’d never see them again.” 0 642 The formation of FACT (Fighting AIDS Continuously Together) / The Summer Games CV: And the killer every year -- and this was also, as a side note, the beginning of two organizations -- one is FACT --
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 ; LB: Yeah.
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 ; CV: -- Fighting AIDS Continuously Together.
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 ; LB: Yeah.
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 ; CV: And, through that, became the folks at the bars got involved with the summer games. 
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 ; LB: Right.
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 ; CV: And that also was an AIDS-related fundraising community activity.
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 ; LB: Yeah.
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 ; CV: But as a part of the summer games, they would read the litany of the dead. Oh.
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 ; LB: Yeah.
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 ; CV: I’m choked up just thinking about it, you know. It was just terrible. I mean it was good, but it was rough. It was rough. 0 701 Comparison of using condoms to wearing masks CV: The other interesting thing about it in those days was that, comparing it to now, you know, people didn’t debate whether putting the condom on for sex was, you know, their personal liberty or anything.
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 ; LB: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; CV: You know, and now today masks are like, you know -- there’s a big political statement. Well, back then, either you or your partner, or both of you, wore condoms, or somebody was very likely to die. 0 825 Talking about his partner being diagnosed with HIV/AIDS / Dr. Rhodes CV: So anyhow, I mean, it became an era that was, you know, death and obits, and people we knew were dying off. And you would go to the bar and you would see people one week, and -- just like Nan said -- you know, next week they wouldn’t be there. And you know, what happened? And, you know, and then you read the paper two weeks later -- they’re dead. And that sort of brings me to my personal story -- is that shortly after -- let me see -- I bought the house in eighty-five, and got involved with the Lambda Center in eighty-five -- eighty-six is when I met my partner, Jim. And he was a specialty nurse -- a high-end nurse -- in the hospital. And we had a wonderful life together. And then he was working a lot of overtime, a lot of twelve-hour shifts, a lot of back-on-back shifts over weekends. And then he was losing his appetite -- and he was thin to begin with -- but he was losing some weight. And I said, “Hey, Jim, you know, it’s time. You have a conversation with your boss. You know, you’re working too hard. Blah blah. We don’t need the money, okay. I mean it’s not like we’re starving here. Okay? So we’ve got to ease up a little bit.” And then he got a rash, and he couldn’t get rid of this rash. And he went to the dermatologist. And along the road, he gets an HIV test. 0 1159 Visiting friends who were in the hospital LB: Yeah. So you were talking about care -- you took care of other people too?
 ; 
 ; CV: I can’t say I took care of other people --
 ; 
 ; LB: Were you there at the time?
 ; 
 ; CV: Yeah. But we would, you know, visit hospitals, you know. It was, you know, what you would do. You know, you’d get to go and visit a hospital. Usually you couldn’t gang up in there, because, you know, the patients -- typically by ten, they were bedridden in the hospital -- they would get tired very easily.
 ; 
 ; LB: Yeah. 0 1357 The Lambda Center and the AIDS Hotline CV: Well, yeah. And, again, I bring it back to the Lambda Center -- that AIDS hotline. And I was around people like the Brian Markses, the Carl Mancinos, the Larry Kleppingers, you know, all the [Chuck Woodberrys?] -- all the people who were -- 
 ; Candida -- people who were active and engaged and doing something about it.
 ; 
 ; LB: Yes. Yeah.
 ; 
 ; CV: You know, and people weren’t going to just sit in a corner crying about it, and, you know, lamenting. There was plenty of that to do.
 ; 
 ; LB: Sure.
 ; 
 ; CV: But, while there was that to do, there was other work to be done. And nobody else was doing it. I mean, even the medical profession -- you know, I have Dr. Rhodes, who was probably the dean of the infectious disease community at the time. 0 1462 Obtaining up-to-date information in the 1980s CV: I mean, we’re data rich.
 ; 
 ; LB: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; CV: And disease management requires data to do it.
 ; 
 ; LB: That’s a really good point, because back then -- and certainly in the eighties -- at the dawn of computers, the internet 
 ; really hadn’t happened. So if you wanted to read something, you’d have to read it in a published thing -- in a brochure. You’d have to go to a conference, you’d have to call somebody up and say, “What’s new?” And --
 ; 
 ; CV: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; LB: -- so that’s a vast difference, with regard to that epidemic --
 ; 
 ; CV: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; LB: -- and the epidemic we’re dealing now. I mean, everybody, if they want to, can get up-to-date information. Some of it’s wrong, but that always happens. 0 1688 Attending funerals LB: So I’ve had people tell me that one of the things that people did -- there were so many funerals --
 ; 
 ; CV: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; LB: -- and there were just funerals all the time. And could you talk a little bit about that whole aspect of it, and going to 
 ; funerals, and who would do the funerals? And also, people have told me that people planted trees to celebrate peoples’ lives. Do you remember that?
 ; 
 ; CV: Yeah. Yeah. Well, actually (laughs) -- there’s several things that kind of come into play here. But yes, there were a lot of funerals. 0 2150 Memorial trees in Lehigh Parkway LB: It’s a whole different situation. Do you remember that thing about the trees? Because I remember that, and --
 ; 
 ; CV: Oh, yes. And I didn’t know of others, but a good friend of mine -- Larry Miley, who used to live across the street -- he and his wife were very active with the Lenni Lenape Museum --
 ; 
 ; LB: Oh, yeah.
 ; 
 ; CV: -- on the parkway. And Larry was a good friend of Jim and I, so -- they live right across the street. So he said, you know, “We would like to organize having a Native American ceremony” --
 ; 
 ; LB: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; CV: -- here. You know, a separate ceremony.” So we brought the family back down. 0 2303 Helping to start GLEE at Air Products / Having a supportive work environment LB: -- you were working at Air Products then. Was there an Air Product response?
 ; 
 ; CV: A very personal one. My boss at the time, you know, was very supportive. I said, you know, “The best time for visitors for Jim in the hospital was after three o’clock. So every day at three, I’m leaving at three o’clock. So, you know, we’re just going to have to figure this out.” No questions were asked, you know, “Go right ahead.” Obviously there was time off for grieving, and the funeral, and so forth. So the company was very, very supportive. This would have been right around the same time as GLEE starting at Air Products. 0 2576 Families discovering child was gay at their funerals LB: Great. Now there was a little bit of interference there, but you mean they’re still strained over the death? Or finding out that their son was gay?
 ; 
 ; CV: I think finding out. Because it’s the lack of closure.
 ; 
 ; LB: Oh, okay.
 ; 
 ; CV: When you’re given the opportunity to, you know, well, go through the conversation -- “Well, was it something we did? Did somebody make you gay?” You know. To solve those questions, and to get those out of your head -- you just don’t know. 0 2731 Practicing safe sex/prevention and protecting partners LB: And it was early in the epidemic, so there wasn’t any -- I mean, he wasn’t at a time when people were telling you what to do to keep from getting it.
 ; 
 ; CV: Yeah. Yeah.
 ; 
 ; LB: You know, because it was --
 ; 
 ; CV: Well, that’s --
 ; 
 ; LB: -- that time.
 ; 
 ; CV: Yeah. That’s it, you know. Kind of like what we’re learning about COVID now, you know -- now we’re learning, “Oh, you could be asymptomatic and spreading it around all over the place.” Well, there, back in those days, you didn’t even know the disease existed. 
 ; 
 ; LB: Right.
 ; 
 ; CV: Therefore, having unprotected sex -- what was different today than yesterday. 0 2970 Healthcare experiences for AIDS patients LB: Well, so at the time that Jim was sick, and at the time that other people that you knew were sick from AIDS, what about healthcare? I mean did you see positive and negative things were happening in the hospital? Because we had somebody in our extended family who -- at the beginning of the epidemic -- who couldn’t -- like they wouldn’t even bring the tray into the room when he was in the hospital. So --
 ; 
 ; CV: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; LB: -- this was a little bit later, when Jim was sick. But --
 ; 
 ; CV: Yeah. 
 ; 
 ; LB: But --
 ; 
 ; CV: Yeah. 
 ; 
 ; LB: -- [maybe it was a bit?] earlier.
 ; 
 ; CV: Yeah. He would have been in the hospital during the winter of nineteen-ninety. We took him in in February -- just a few days after my birthday, actually. 0 3209 Being on the board of FACT and fundraising LB: I can’t ever take mine off. When FACT really was formed and it started to do some very, very significant work in fundraising, were you involved with it?
 ; 
 ; CV: Yeah. Yeah. I was on their board -- I’ve lost track of how many years -- and probably went off the board and came back on the board, and was involved with doing my bit at the summer games too. And I think I was also on the committee that dispersed the -- I don’t know if they still do -- but we used to call them “contingency funds” -- 0 3572 Medications for AIDS compared to COVID / Reactions to COVID and wearing masks CV: And so I’m not really familiar -- I mean I’ve heard the stories about some meds being worse than others --
 ; 
 ; LB: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; CV: -- but we also know that everybody’s body handles meds differently.
 ; 
 ; LB: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; CV: So, you know, it could be that this med worked miracles if you had certain conditions in place. And if you didn’t, or if your T cells were too far low, or not low enough, they may not trigger, you know -- just like with some of the people getting that overreaction of their immune system to COVID. I mean, it could be the same thing. I mean if you were at a certain point along the HIV spectrum, some of the meds might have been more contradictory than others, depending on your gene make-up and your disease progression. So, you know, a lot was learned over the decades about meds. And the good news is we have, you know, PrEP. Whether people would consider that a vaccine, per say, probably not, you know, which also makes you nervous about COVID. Well, if we’d been pouring money into the research around HIV for decades - 0 3906 Advocating for testing for HIV/AIDS and reluctance to get tested LB: Right. Right. Did you come in contact with people who were -- I mean, testing became more of an issue and more available -- and certainly more available now, with the rapid test. It’s so easy now, in comparison to the way it was. But, you know, how were people advocating testing at that time?
 ; 
 ; CV: Well, I mean, it was the basics. Well, you know, your partner, or if you’ve had unprotected sex with somebody who you don’t know, you know, you need to go get tested.
 ; 
 ; LB: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; CV: And there was the usual reluctance, for two reasons -- number one, “Oh, they’re going to tell me I’m going to die. So why should I be in a hurry to go hear this news?” Number one, because there is no cure. 0 4058 Being out as a gay man LB: I mean there’s you and me and Trish, who every single person in the world knows, you know -- you ran for office as an openly gay man. (laughter) But not everybody’s like us. And --
 ; 
 ; CV: True. True. And, in some cases, thank God (laughs), you know. But, to be honest, you know, when I first came to the Valley, I wasn’t out, oddly -- I mean, believe it or not. And you have some personal experience with this, too, in that I used two names -- the Charlie, and the Chuck. 
 ; 
 ; LB: Yeah. 0 4609 Lehigh Valley resources for AIDS / Medical community engaged with local LGBTQ community organizations LB: (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible). But the Lehigh Valley --
 ; 
 ; CV: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; LB: -- and part of it was because that community center existed already, I think.
 ; 
 ; CV: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; LB: So there was --
 ; 
 ; CV: There was a community organization, and then quickly following it was FACT, and then the bar organizations as a fundraising machine --
 ; 
 ; LB: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; CV: -- for the summer games and other things. And then you had the beginnings of the AIDS Services Center -- 0 4842 Reflections for future viewers / Understanding diseases through science CV: Hmm. Well part of it is that, you know, there’s a whole bunch of messages now that are flooding through my mind.
 ; 
 ; LB: (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible). 
 ; 
 ; CV: (laughs) And some of it is tainted by our current situation. But at number one -- I mean, I’ll quote some of Tom Friedman, from yesterday’s New York Times -- you know, “Science. There’s this thing about science. So when you’re dealing with disease, diseases are a function of science. So if you want to understand the disease, you’ve got to understand the science behind it. And that doesn’t come from whatever the thirty year version of Facebook looks like, it doesn’t come from the thirty year version of Twitter, it doesn’t come from the thirty year any of those things. It’s going to come from the science organizations and the researchers who are leading this charge” -- 0 5033 Difference between AIDS and COVID LB: Okay. I’ll give you one more opportunity to comment on this, because when we talk about the difference between AIDS and COVID, one of the problems with the stigma of AIDS in the nineteen-eighties is that, governmentally, even the science world was not as desperate to deal with the disease and the cure for it, because it was affecting a minority group that they didn’t like very much. And that can happen in other circumstances as well. This is only affecting poor people in Africa. 
 ; 
 ; CV: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; LB: Or it’s only affecting poor people in the United States -- in the slums of the United States. 0 MovingImage Charlie Versaggi talks about the early days if the HIV/AIDS epidemic, the loss of his partner to AIDS, his work with the Lambda Community Center (formerly Le-Hi-Ho), the AIDS Services Center, and Fighting AIDS Continuously Together (FACT). CHARLES VERSAGGI LIZ BRADBURY: There. So now we're recording. I have to read you these things. So, with this project, Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on 40 years of public health experiences in the Lehigh Valley's LGBT community, collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury, and I am here with Charles Versaggi to talk about his experiences in the Lehigh Valley -- oops, wait a minute. Hold on. Why did that happen? Oh well. There's a little background noise that's happening. I don't want that to work. But anyway. CHARLES VERSAGGI: I don't hear it on my side. LB: Yeah, well, okay. (laughter) It's weird, because I turned it off. Where was I? Let's see. To talk about his experiences during this time of the COVID-19 pandemic, as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT community archive. Today's date is July first, twenty-twenty, and we are meeting on Zoom. Now, you are in Allentown, Pennsylvania. Is that correct? CV: Correct. And it's July second. LB: Oh, it's July second. Uh oh. I said first in the last one. Oh well. So yes, it's July second -- let me correct that. And I have pinned you, I've turned off my phone, I said the date, I've said the place. We're good with that. Now thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start, can you please state your full name, and spell it for me? CV: Charles J. Versaggi, Junior -- Charles -- that's C-H-A-R-L-E-S. Last name is Versaggi -- V, as in Victor, E-R-S-A-G-G-I. LB: Great. Will you please share your birth date? CV: Can I just share my birth year? LB: Just your year? CV: Yeah. LB: Okay. CV: Nineteen fifty-one. LB: Okay. CV: That's just for security purposes. LB: That's fine. Do you consent to this interview today? This is the consent part. CV: Yes. LB: Okay. Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable formats? CV: Yes. LB: Do you consent to the LGBT archive using your interview for educational purposes, in other formats including films, articles, websites, presentations, and other formats? CV: Yes. LB: Do you understand that you will have thirty days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview and identify parts you would like to delete and/or withdraw? You can withdraw the entire interview if you want to -- although that would make me sad. In fact, we could redo the whole thing if you wanted to, but -- CV: That would make me sad. (laughter) LB: That would. I don't think we'll have to do that. So, in the midst of the current public health crisis we're experiencing, we want to take this opportunity to look back and reflect and to capture the stories of those who lived through the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic in the nineteen-eighties and the nineteen-nineties. And let's start out with just one question I've been asking everybody, and that is, when were you first aware of HIV/AIDS? Do you remember that moment? CV: The trigger moment for me was I moved into this house -- I had been living in the Valley since nineteen seventy-six, but I moved into my house here in Old Allentown in the summer of eighty-five. And shortly thereafter, I joined a community center -- now defunct, unfortunately -- called the Lambda Center, which was right up the street on Eighth and Hamilton. LB: Yes. CV: And among the things I volunteered for there was the very early beginnings of the AIDS hotline. So I can pin the date that I got knowledgeable about AIDS to about nineteen eighty-five. LB: Yeah. CV: And the trigger was, you know, becoming involved in the Lambda Center, and becoming involved with the hotline as a result of it. LB: Yeah. What did the hotline do? CV: Well, I mean I'm not even sure how we advertised, now that I think about it, because we didn't have, you know, the venues we have now, in terms of social media. So we probably had posters out in the bars, which would have been the main way to communicate. LB: Yeah. CV: And I would go there one or two nights a week and answer phone calls. People would call in -- some with AIDS-related questions, and others with everything from a prank call to, you know, "What do you know about birth control?" You know, "I have a heroin addiction. What can I do about that?" You know -- there was a phone number you could call. So I mean it got everything, and some of it was actually AIDS-related. LB: Yeah. Did you get a lot of calls per night? CV: I think it varied. Some nights I just sat there and read my magazines, and other nights, you know, it was one call after another. It varied. Again, this would have been in the mid-eighties -- mid-eighty-five to eighty-six, eighty-seven -- time frame. And I may be a little off on this, but I believe that hotline is what morphed into the AIDS Services Center -- LB: Oh. CV: -- and all of those services. Now, there may be some debate about that -- but in this tired old memory of mine, there seemed -- LB: (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) CV: -- the Lambda Center has faded out over time, and the AIDS Services Center got engaged. So there certainly was that transition -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- and whether it was deliberate or just evolution, I don't know. But it -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- it was a precursor. LB: You know, I'm doing ten interviews -- we have a grant to do ten of these interviews, and you're the last one. CV: Yeah. LB: And so I've had a lot of people talking about the center, and I just talked to Rose Craig -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- and a lot of people are talking about the center and how -- but you're the first person who mentioned the hotline, which I think is very -- CV: Oh, yeah? LB: -- important. Now, some of these people were a little bit later than eighty-five. CV: Yeah. LB: But who else was working on the hotline with you? CV: I believe Brian Marks -- LB: Okay. CV: -- was involved then. I don't know if Carl Mancino was or not. LB: Yeah. CV: I know he was involved in the center, but I can't remember if he was actually a volunteer. LB: Sure. CV: And we probably had a handful of others. But -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- names have escaped me over the years. And I do remember -- although I can't tell you who did it -- but I do remember going to one or two training sessions -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- that were by no means what we would currently think of today -- I mean today you would go through about a week's worth of material -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- to get ready for this. I mean we spent probably a couple hours -- because back in those days, I don't know if there was much more than a couple hour's worth of information for people to know. I mean it wasn't a medical discussion. This was really a discussion around, okay, "I don't know if my boyfriend has AIDS or not. How should I protect myself?" Or "I have AIDS. How should I protect my boyfriend?" And "What is defined by safe sex?" And those were the kinds of conversations. LB: Yeah. CV: So, you know, you didn't need a week's worth of material to answer those questions. But it started to be instilled -- at least in me -- which becomes important a little later on in this discussion -- you know, what safe sex was all about -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- and how important, and how deadly, this disease was. LB: Right. That must have been really tough, because there weren't a lot of answers to some of those questions. CV: Absolutely not. In fact, the right questions hadn't even been formulated yet. So, I mean, it was early days. Very early days. LB: I mean, I've noticed that for some people, it is very hard for them to talk about people who are dying. CV: Yeah. LB: They have a very, very hard time mentioning it. I talked to Maria Rodale, and so she talked about her brother and other people. CV: Yeah. LB: I talked to Bill Aull at Rainbow House -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- and he spoke very specifically about people dying -- he was a nurse there. But for some people they were saying, "Well there were people dying, but they weren't really people I knew very well. And yet, we were aware of it," or, "I'd see them and then they just" -- like Nan Kozul was saying, "There would be people, and then they'd just disappear, you know. We'd never see them again." CV: Yeah. LB: So talk about a little bit about that -- like in terms of -- CV: Well my experience -- it runs the whole gamut. There will be a personal part -- which I'll get to in a little bit --but in the beginning, I mean, it was almost sinful in that, you know, you would see somebody on the street and, "Oh, John lost some weight" -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- "uh oh. John must be sick." LB: Yeah. CV: And whether he lost weight for a diet or not, it didn't make any difference. If you looked like you were losing weight -- and, quite frankly, ninety-five percent of people, if they were losing weight, they were sick. LB: Yeah. CV: I mean that's just the way it was. And it was just like, you know, you were looking at death to be. And it was just you just knew, because back then, you know, there were no cocktail drugs. I mean, you know, you weren't going to slow it down. It was going to take it's course. And, you know, it was a one-way ticket -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- and it was a very short runway. And then you would see them the next week, and then they could barely walk. I remember one dear friend of mine who passed away -- probably no older than age twenty-seven maybe at the oldest -- you know, walking his mother across Ninth Street to go to bingo one night. And this was a party boy. This was a boy who was out every night -- party, party, party, party. LB: Yeah. CV: And now his skinny little legs were walking with his mother, taking her to a bingo game. You know, what a one-eighty that was. LB: Yeah. CV: And, sure enough, you know, I was by his bedside, and helping him eat, and -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- you know, those sorts of things. And it's interesting you brought up Nan, because, I mean, she's dealt with some of the death quite personally. And it actually was a dark era, quite honestly. I mean, death was a regular part of the conversation. LB: Yeah. CV: I mean, you know, you would look in the obits, and, "Oh, John died. Mark died. Fred's dead" -- you know. I mean it was a litany of saints. LB: Yeah. CV: And the killer every year -- and this was also, as a side note, the beginning of two organizations -- one is FACT -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- Fighting AIDS Continuously Together. LB: Yeah. CV: And, through that, became the folks at the bars got involved with the summer games. LB: Right. CV: And that also was an AIDS-related fundraising community activity. LB: Yeah. CV: But as a part of the summer games, they would read the litany of the dead. Oh. LB: Yeah. CV: I'm choked up just thinking about it, you know. It was just terrible. I mean it was good, but it was rough. It was rough. LB: Yeah. CV: You know, in the early years of that, everybody in that audience -- everybody who attended that -- knew the people who died. LB: Right. CV: And then, over time, newer, younger people came into the play, and fewer people knew all the names -- although they would have recognized some. But that's just the way life goes on. The other interesting thing about it in those days was that, comparing it to now, you know, people didn't debate whether putting the condom on for sex was, you know, their personal liberty or anything. LB: Yeah. CV: You know, and now today masks are like, you know -- there's a big political statement. Well, back then, either you or your partner, or both of you, wore condoms, or somebody was very likely to die. LB: Yeah. CV: I mean it wasn't like a debate about politics or anything. This was life and death. It was real simple. The equation was very, very straightforward. And I tell people, you know, half with a smirk on my face, "Consider that mask your face condom now." LB: Yeah. CV: "Just think of it that way. Now you want to go into having a sexual relationship with somebody without a condom? So are you going to go into public spaces where you're going to be around a lot of people without wearing your face condom? You know, get with it." LB: Yeah. CV: You know, I understand the politics and all that -- I understand. Got it. But this is health. This is a little different. LB: Right, right. CV: And again, as we all know, the mask isn't protecting you -- it's protecting other people. LB: Right. CV: So let's get with it. Anyway. My commercial on masks. LB: And I love asking everybody about the COVID response -- CV: Yes. LB: -- but go on and talk about this, because I think you know what you want to say. So go ahead. CV: Okay. So over time, you know, the disease took its own course. And I shouldn't just say this, but I'm speaking as a gay man -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- from the gay man's perspective. Parallel to the gay male experience -- I mean, there is the whole IV drug user population. So, I mean, they were going through the same crises that we were going through as gay men, but, you know, it was a parallel crisis. But I wasn't an IV drug user, so I can't bring you that perspective. I'm sure that was a whole different perspective. LB: Yeah. CV: So anyhow, I mean, it became an era that was, you know, death and obits, and people we knew were dying off. And you would go to the bar and you would see people one week, and -- just like Nan said -- you know, next week they wouldn't be there. And you know, what happened? And, you know, and then you read the paper two weeks later -- they're dead. And that sort of brings me to my personal story -- is that shortly after -- let me see -- I bought the house in eighty-five, and got involved with the Landis Center in eighty-five -- eighty-six is when I met my partner, Jim. And he was a specialty nurse -- a high-end nurse -- in the hospital. And we had a wonderful life together. And then he was working a lot of overtime, a lot of twelve-hour shifts, a lot of back-on-back shifts over weekends. And then he was losing his appetite -- and he was thin to begin with -- but he was losing some weight. And I said, "Hey, Jim, you know, it's time. You have a conversation with your boss. You know, you're working too hard. Blah blah. We don't need the money, okay. I mean it's not like we're starving here. Okay? So we've got to ease up a little bit." And then he got a rash, and he couldn't get rid of this rash. And he went to the dermatologist. And along the road, he gets an HIV test. LB: Yeah. CV: Through Dr. Rhodes, actually. He's still with us, and doing a fabulous job in the COVID arena -- Dr. Rhodes. And I can clearly remember -- it was just before Thanksgiving in nineteen-ninety, I came back, and the test was positive. Based on his T cell count, which was very, very low, they surmised that he got infected before he and I met, somewhere in his prior journeys. And Jim was very young. I mean at the time he was probably twenty-seven, maybe twenty-eight. So that was around Thanksgiving and Christmas time -- in fact, there's pictures right above my head behind us here. And by July -- July ninth, actually -- coming up in a few days -- he passed away. It was obviously a very tragic point in my life. And people keep saying, "Well how come you're still alive?" LB: Yeah. CV: Because we lived together for -- if he was infected before he got to meet me -- we were together almost six years -- LB: Right. CV: -- you know, in the same bed, in the same room. So it wasn't like, you know, we were living across the street. And it goes back to this HIV training I had for that hotline. I mean I knew the consequences, and I knew what safe sex was about. And I just said, "Hey, you know, I'm talking to people once or twice a week on this hotline, Jim, you know. We're going to follow this process." Little did I know -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- that five and a half years later, I would be burying the guy. So, you know, it was tough for everybody. And many more probably than you realize have personal stories that go along with them. LB: Yeah. CV: Again, just like in COVID, you know. There's all these stories -- now one of the differences is that now your loved ones are in a nursing home or something -- you can't go see them. LB: Right. CV: Then, I was at his bedside when he died, I was at other people's bedsides, you know, up until the day before. LB: Right. CV: So, you know, there was a physical ability to get close, which kind of lent to the closure. You could have a proper funeral, and a viewing, and so forth. But there were similarities. I mean, the beginning, everybody said, "Eh, no big deal. A couple of dead monkeys," or whatever. You know, "No big deal." Next thing you know, people you knew were dropping like flies. LB: Yeah. CV: And same thing with COVID -- "Oh, it's going to go away." "Oh, it will fade away in the summer." Not so much. Not so much. So it's one of those things -- you have to learn to pay attention to these things. And science counts. And the medical profession, you know, knows more than a newspaper report, you know. (laughs) And they certainly know more than a blogger that, you know, is sitting there just inventing their strategy and perspective on science, you know. I'm a believer in credentials, you know. If you don't have the credentials and the experience, you know. And that goes back to our Dr. Rhodes, you know. I mean the guy has been in this business -- deep into this business -- since my meeting him in the AIDS timeframe, back in eighty-five, eighty-six. So when Dr. Rhodes says something, I believe him. LB: Yeah. And he's at Lehigh Valley Hospital? Or -- CV: Right, yeah. And he was one of I think the two experts that the congress woman from Bethlehem -- LB: Lisa Boscola? No, congresswoman -- CV: Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry, yeah. Boscola. LB: She's a state senator. CV: Yeah. She had referenced Luther Rhodes and some other gentleman in conversations that she was trying to get the Wolf Administration to adjust the openings and closings of businesses and so forth. LB: Yeah. CV: So they played a pretty important role in kind of defining what the disease looked like, and -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- what's safe and what's not safe. LB: Yeah. So you were talking about care -- you took care of other people too? CV: I can't say I took care of other people -- LB: Were you there at the time? CV: Yeah. But we would, you know, visit hospitals, you know. It was, you know, what you would do. You know, you'd get to go and visit a hospital. Usually you couldn't gang up in there, because, you know, the patients -- typically by ten, they were bedridden in the hospital -- they would get tired very easily. LB: Yeah. CV: And they were all skin and bones. And, you know, they were being poked left and right, and fed this and fed that, and this test and that test. But you could get, you know, maybe a half an hour or so -- bring something to read, listen to some music, or just sit there and read to them, you know, or bring them some snacks. Because their bodies were wasting away, they could eat a lot of junk food (laughs), because -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- you know, that's not what was going to kill them, you know. If anything, it might put some weight on them. LB: Yeah. CV: But yeah. So, you know, we would share junk food, and, you know, tell some stories and read a book maybe together. LB: Yeah. I think one of the people I spoke to said that he felt that the loss of appetite was particularly near the end of the -- you know, I talk about the disease time going from nineteen eighty-five to nineteen ninety-three, and after ninety-three there was actual medication that people -- it didn't save everybody, but it could save people. There was hope. CV: Yeah. LB: And he was saying that if people were able to make it to nineteen ninety-three (laughs) -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- in some of the instances where it's just that they wasted away. So there was that, you know -- to take marijuana, or -- I knew somebody like who was a friend of mine who scored marijuana for her friend, because he was just not eating -- he was a young kid, and he was -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- just wasting away. And it was the only -- CV: Well part of the disease -- similar to COVID, in that, you know, it affects people in different ways. But one of the more common effects was digestive inflammation -- that, essentially, you just had diarrhea all the time. LB: Oh. CV: So even though you were eating, it didn't do much good, because it was coming out of you as fast as it was going in. And that also lead to severe dehydration. I mean, and then that taxes the organs. So when they get to that point, that's when they need to be on some kind of IV and hospitalized -- because, you know, the loss of appetite is one thing, but the inability to keep food in and process it and get the nourishment out of it is a whole other extension to that. So yeah. Using, you know, marijuana for beefing up the appetite -- that would work. But if your body had gotten to the point where it was no longer keeping food, then -- LB: Right. CV: -- you could have all the appetite you want, but you're not going to be able to outrun it. LB: Right. Yeah. You have a different perspective, it sounds like, than a lot of other people. For one thing, you were really here in nineteen eighty-five. Several of the people I've spoken to were talking about a little bit later -- or several years later -- because they seemed to be a little less aware. But you were really aware, right at the beginning of stuff. And so -- CV: I -- LB: Go ahead. CV: Well, yeah. And, again, I bring it back to the Lambda Center -- that AIDS hotline. And I was around people like the Brian Markses, the Carl Mancinos, the Larry Kleppingers, you know, all the [Chuck Woodberrys?] -- all the people who were -- Candida -- people who were active and engaged and doing something about it. LB: Yes. Yeah. CV: You know, and people weren't going to just sit in a corner crying about it, and, you know, lamenting. There was plenty of that to do. LB: Sure. CV: But, while there was that to do, there was other work to be done. And nobody else was doing it. I mean, even the medical profession -- you know, I have Dr. Rhodes, who was probably the dean of the infectious disease community at the time. And he'd probably tell you, you know, "Back then, I was learning," which, you know, everybody was. So, you know, the medical community -- I mean I'd have to lecture doctors. LB: Yeah. CV: I mean I'm not a med guy, okay? (laughs) I have some common sense, I can understand it, but I'm not a medical professional. But I would go into my personal physician -- my GP -- and, you know, he would say, "Well, doesn't safe sex cure it?" I said, "No," you know. And we look at it now, and you say, "Oh, well that was a stupid question." But, again, back then, we didn't even know the questions. We didn't even know -- LB: Right. CV: -- the questions to ask, much less have the answers. But, you know, the medical profession was really at a loss. And, again, they don't have the technologies that we have today -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- to keep us up to date, you know. LB: Right. CV: And all the newsletter and email, newsletters I get, and all the websites you can visit, and all the instantaneously updated statistics and trends and analyses -- I mean, we're data rich. LB: Yeah. CV: And disease management requires data to do it. LB: That's a really good point, because back then -- and certainly in the eighties -- at the dawn of computers, the internet really hadn't happened. So if you wanted to read something, you'd have to read it in a published thing -- in a brochure. You'd have to go to a conference, you'd have to call somebody up and say, "What's new?" And -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- so that's a vast difference, with regard to that epidemic -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- and the epidemic we're dealing now. I mean, everybody, if they want to, can get up-to-date information. Some of it's wrong, but that always happens. CV: Yeah. Yeah. LB: Well that's an extraordinarily important point. CV: And let me just add something to that. And the blessing is that we have all that. LB: Yeah. CV: But there's a bit of a curse that goes with it, and that is those same venues can be also an outlet for all the wrong stuff -- either intentionally or otherwise. So you've got a lot of people who are preaching things about -- today, for example -- wearing masks. LB: Yeah. CV: They're not making medical statements. I mean they're making some perspective -- or, God forbid, off of some fake website some place that they never bothered to proof check and everything else, you know. So it taxes us, as consumers of information. Because not only do you have to be able to understand what's right -- you have to be smart enough to be able to filter out the nonsense. LB: Right. CV: So it doesn't make it easier that we have all this stuff. Now, at this juncture in time, it makes it a bit challenging, because you have to be smart enough to be able to sift through all this and use the right materials for the right purposes. LB: Yeah. CV: I interrupted you I think. LB: No, I don't want to interrupt you at all. I just want you to keep talking. So (laughter) (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) -- CV: Well, quick scan my notes, and see if -- yeah, we talked about that, and we talked about that. COVID, and medical profession -- oh. The fact that -- and I shouldn't smirk at this -- but the fact that, you know, going for your blood test back then was the equivalent of waiting for your death sentence. LB: Yeah. CV: Because, again, it was pre-cure. LB: Yeah. CV: I mean there was barely any remedies. I mean, you know, they tried to make you comfortable and keep your fluid and nutrition until you die, really. LB: Yeah. Yeah. CV: I mean and I remember, as soon as Jimmy said, you know, "I'm positive," you know, and he said, "You have to go get a test." And I'm thinking, "Oh my God," you know. And I mean I was still working, you know, and I'm like sitting by the phone at the office, like just not knowing, you know. And you just hold your breath. And then, again, similar to today, you could have a negative test, and then six months later have a positive test. LB: Yeah. CV: You know, so you had to go through that test death sentence expectation -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- every six months for years, until you finally figured out -- assuming you hadn't misbehaved -- that, you know, you were okay. And at least now when you get the death sentence -- I mean I know guys who have been living with HIV/AIDS for twenty, twenty-five years now. Twenty years. Yeah. So, I mean, it seems like their quality of life is pretty decent -- I mean they're still working, and, you know, to look at them, you wouldn't know -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- as opposed to twenty-five years ago -- if you looked them, you would definitely know. LB: So I've had people tell me that one of the things that people did -- there were so many funerals -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- and there were just funerals all the time. And could you talk a little bit about that whole aspect of it, and going to funerals, and who would do the funerals? And also, people have told me that people planted trees to celebrate peoples' lives. Do you remember that? CV: Yeah. Yeah. Well, actually (laughs) -- there's several things that kind of come into play here. But yes, there were a lot of funerals. They were actually no different, really, than the funerals today, with one major exception. If you died of AIDS then, you were most likely a gay man. LB: Yeah. CV: And whether you were out to your family or not, you were now. LB: Yeah. CV: Whether they wanted to believe it or not, you were in a box, because you died of, at the time, a gay man's disease -- even though we know it's not. But at the time, that's what it was. So the pall over the whole funeral of a family who didn't know about their gay son's life is now -- we can't even talk about it -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- because they're in a box. LB: Yeah. CV: And now all these strange guys have showed up -- LB: Oh, yeah. CV: -- to pay their respects, all crying their eyes out. And, you know, the dynamic at that funeral is just one that I'd never experienced before in my life. And, again, it wasn't just one or two. I mean, and there were guys who were out to their families, and they had a healthy relationship and so forth. But I know other guys who one or two of the parents wouldn't come to the funeral, you know -- and/or siblings. It was truly mixed. So it just made the funerals -- they're complicated enough, emotionally -- but it wasn't even a layer. It was an exponential degree of complexity added to a funeral, from an emotional standpoint. It was just emotionally charged from head to toe. I mean I would go to those funerals and come back and fall asleep for the rest of the day. I was exhausted. I was exhausted. And, in my case, it was a very beautiful event -- I mean we managed to talk through a lot of stuff with the family ahead of time -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- a very religious family -- very religious. So, you know, "How could this be happening?" Et cetera, et cetera. But very loving. And, again, our friends did show up at the funeral, and everybody was welcomed, and there was no hassles, and -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- it went well. But I've seen others where it was an emotional disaster area. LB: Yeah. CV: Yeah. LB: I just talked to Scott Allen, and I talked to Bill Aull about this, and both of them were saying that, you know, some of the ministers and some of the priests were really supportive, and some of them really just wouldn't show up and do anything at all. And I know you have a relationship to that. CV: Yeah. It's sort of wild that the Catholic priest up in Jim's area did the funeral. I mean I don't think there's anything in the Catholic dogma that says a Catholic priest can't give a funeral to a dead gay person. LB: Right. CV: You know, they may have their personal perspective on it, but that's too bad. I mean that's not what canon law says. (laughs) Canon law says, you know, family's gathering, you know, blah, blah, blah. You're doing the funeral. And part of this is conjecture, I'll admit. But the Catholic church -- there's the diocesan component of the Catholic church, which is the one that most people are familiar with -- the big churches and so forth. And then there's the various orders -- like the Franciscan orders, or the Carmelite orders. And they will often have their own churches -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- and can do their own thing there, all under the diocesan umbrella. So they can't break any rules under that umbrella -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- but their liturgies can tend to be a little more dynamic. LB: Yeah. CV: So I never thought of it back then, but, you know, had I chosen to do a funeral or a passage of life ceremony at one of the orders -- like the Franciscan over in Easton -- I would have probably had a lot more say in how it would have been done, and what would have gone -- I couldn't break any rules, but it would have been -- LB: Sure. CV: -- different. So yeah. And obviously the metropolitan community church, assuming it was alive and active back in those days, would have done a much different service than the more traditional churches would have. (coughs) And I'm not too familiar with the funeral services in some of the other churches. Most of the ones I went to were more secular. In the funeral parlor, and the minister comes and says a prayer, and is done with it. (coughs) LB: Yeah. But anyway, when you're talking about that, and you're saying that -- I know that that was very devastating to go -- I mean, funerals are devastating at the very (inaudible), and people are going to a funeral every month or every week. CV: Yeah. LB: It's for people you know, or people you're really close to. It's the kind of thing that, you know, you have one instance like that in your young life -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- and it bothers you for years. You have twenty instances like that -- it's like war. CV: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well that's a good analogy. I mean it's like I got to live through not having to go to Vietnam -- because I was still in college -- but buried a whole lot of friends as a result of that. LB: Yeah. CV: You know, I hadn't thought of it this way, but it was almost like a trial run for, you know, ten years, twenty years later, fifteen years later to go through this, you know, and get to bury a whole bunch of other friends. LB: It's thirty-five years ago. CV: You're right. (laughter) Eighty-five was thirty five years ago? Thirty-five years? Wow. LB: I'm sorry, honey. (laughter) CV: Well at least I knew what day it was. (laughter) But, I mean, the good news is I knew what day it was. The bad news -- thirty-five years. LB: Yeah. CV: No wonder I don't have any hair. (laughter) No wonder. LB: No, I'm sorry. (laughter) CV: Well, whenever it was. (laughs) LB: You're not the only one who has said that. CV: Okay. (laughs) LB: Other people -- Scott said that today. He said, "Oh, you know, twenty years ago." I said, "Well, Scott, that's" (laughs) -- CV: Is this the Scott I know -- the organist? LB: T. Scott Allen. He's an Episcopal minister. CV: Oh, okay. No. All right. LB: (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible). And the other guys were saying that too. You know, we were kids then. We were in our twenties and thirties when this was all happening. CV: Yeah. Yeah. LB: So yeah. CV: Yeah. LB: It's a whole different situation. Do you remember that thing about the trees? Because I remember that, and -- CV: Oh, yes. And I didn't know of others, but a good friend of mine -- Larry Miley, who used to live across the street -- he and his wife were very active with the Lenni Lenape Museum -- LB: Oh, yeah. CV: -- on the parkway. And Larry was a good friend of Jim and I, so -- they live right across the street. So he said, you know, "We would like to organize having a Native American ceremony" -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- here. You know, a separate ceremony." So we brought the family back down. And the ceremony was very touching. Everybody wrote little paper notes, and you tied them up with a little ribbon. And then some of them were placed on the branches -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- and some of them were buried with the roots. LB: Yeah. CV: And the ritual is that, you know, the roots will decompose the messages and send the messages up to the sky. And then the ones that are hanging in the tree, the winds will carry the messages into the heavens, and so forth. Yeah. And the chief did dances and so forth, and the tribe folks, you know, sang some songs. And we all participated in the songs, and, you know, the raising of the arms, and all that sort of thing. But it was sort of interesting -- I'm sitting back there, looking at this beautiful Polish, catholic family doing all these rituals, and I'm thinking to myself, "Oh, Lord, if their priest ever saw them now." (laughter) So that's the one I know of, personally. And we also did it for when Larry's wife -- Miley's wife -- passed away from cancer. But I didn't know that there were others. But I guess there are, because, I mean, we have trees in our parkway, and trees in the parks here in Allentown that are there for different peoples' memory. And I wouldn't be surprised if, you know, there were fundraisers to put trees in for people. LB: There were a few places along the Little Lehigh, down off of Martin Luther King Boulevard. CV: Okay. LB: And apparently several of those -- and one of the things about that was that people who were -- and I don't like to use the word "closeted" in this, but they were concerned about the stigma, and they really didn't want to make a public statement about it. So they just planted the tree. They didn't put a sign, they didn't put a memorial -- CV: Oh. LB: -- plaque, they didn't have a headstone any place. It was that thing. CV: Yeah. LB: I thought that was an interesting thing. But not too many people are familiar with it, so I guess that was -- other people in my mind have -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- you were working at Air Products then. Was there an Air Product response? CV: A very personal one. My boss at the time, you know, was very supportive. I said, you know, "The best time for visitors for Jim in the hospital was after three o'clock. So every day at three, I'm leaving at three o'clock. So, you know, we're just going to have to figure this out." No questions were asked, you know, "Go right ahead." Obviously there was time off for grieving, and the funeral, and so forth. So the company was very, very supportive. This would have been right around the same time as GLEE starting at Air Products. LB: Oh. CV: Jimmy died in ninety-one, and I think GLEE was starting in ninety-one, right? I mean, it was right in that same time window. LB: But tell us was GLEE is, because I know, but people seeing this might not. So go ahead. CV: Oh, GLEE was the Air Products' Gay and Lesbian Empowered Employees. G-L-E-E. I think it has a new name now. I've a bit lost track. LB: Spectrum, or something. CV: Okay. Right. Probably to include all the alphabet soup that we've -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- acquired over time. But that's a good thing. So yeah. So GLEE was our gay and lesbian employee organization. And I was one of the founding members. So it, again, was supportive too. But the company directly -- I mean I was out in the company anyway, and my boss, you know -- I mean people had been to my house for parties -- my staff and my bosses had been to the house here for parties, and Jim was here, and, you know, people who walked around would have discovered on their own, and made whatever conclusions -- that there's only one bedroom and one bed. So you can draw your own conclusions, and, you know. LB: Yeah. CV: I think that was certainly pre-rainbow flag in front of the house days. I'm sure of that. Although not by much. Not by much, (laughs) actually. Yeah. Those flags have been out there quite a bit. But yeah. So how did we get onto that? (laughs) Oh, it was work supportive. So yes. And my coworkers, my secretary at the time, you know, were all, you know -- half of them in tears -- because they all met the guy. So they knew who he was, you know. And they knew they saw us together and in action. So, I mean, it wasn't "Some other guy" -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- which is, if you remember -- every time I get a stage to talk on, you know, I always -- especially back in the earlier days -- you know, give the preaching about being out. LB: Right. CV: Because the more out people are, and the more people -- non-gay and lesbian and transgender people -- get to see who they are -- and, "Oh, they're my neighbor, my friends, my daughters, father, my whatever, my dentist, my lawyer," you know. And once they begin to make that personal connection, it's not just "Some horrible gay guy who pissed off God and now he's dead. See, you deserve it" -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- you know. I mean that conversation stops, because they know the guy, and they know that wasn't the case. LB: Yeah. CV: And people always ask me, "How come you're still yelling about being out?" I said, "Because not enough of them are yet." LB: Yeah. CV: But we're a lot better off now than we were for sure. I mean back in eighty-five, we were only about, what, ten years off of the first Stonewall riot. LB: Yeah. CV: Was it seventy-six? LB: It was sixty-nine. CV: Sixty-nine. Okay. So a little bit longer than that. Yeah, I'm not doing too good on years. LB: That's okay. It's not your job. (laughter) CV: Yeah, you're the editor in chief. (laughs) So yeah. I mean it was still early days, and being out was not, you know, a common thing at all, much less to have to be forced out at your funeral. That's just deadly (inaudible). I don't know if some families have recovered yet. LB: Yeah. CV: Now, I know some are still strained over that. Oh, how are we doing? LB: Great. Now there was a little bit of interference there, but you mean they're still strained over the death? Or finding out that their son was gay? CV: I think finding out. Because it's the lack of closure. LB: Oh, okay. CV: When you're given the opportunity to, you know, well, go through the conversation -- "Well, was it something we did? Did somebody make you gay?" You know. To solve those questions, and to get those out of your head -- you just don't know. LB: Yeah. CV: "Were you ever happy? Was there anything we did to hurt you, you know, in your childhood?" You know. All of this stuff that a loving family, hopefully, would want to have -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- just never had the chance to have -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- because it was too late. LB: Yeah. CV: And ditto with the siblings. LB: So yeah. And one of the things that Maria Rodale said, which I thought was a brilliant statement -- she said one of the reasons that her parents were so upset -- her brother was totally out to the family. But the parents felt guilty because they couldn't protect their son. I mean they had a younger son, you're younger than them, you've got a kid, you've got a healthy, young person, and you can't keep them from dying. And I think that that's quite an interesting thing. I mean, it was an interesting way of describing it. CV: I knew David pretty well. In fact, he lived right down the street. And David wouldn't have been an easy guy to control (laughter) in my sense, you know. You know, I loved him dearly. Loved him dearly. And we had a casual banter, back and forth kind of friendship. But, you know, you'd tell him, "Don't go through red lights." (laughter) "All right. What red light?" You know. He'd go through it. And I can tell you some stories, but they wouldn't be appropriate (laughs) for this setting. But he was just a tough one to corral. So, while I certainly respect his family's being disappointed that they couldn't, you know, help him and save him, David was into his twenties, you know -- well into his twenties And, in fact, I think he was running the theater at the time. LB: He was thirty when he died. CV: Yeah. And I think he was running the theater. The -- LB: [He'll be on that?], but yeah. According to her. But he was very young, and it was very fast, too. CV: Yeah. LB: And it was early in the epidemic, so there wasn't any -- I mean, he wasn't at a time when people were telling you what to do to keep from getting it. CV: Yeah. Yeah. LB: You know, because it was -- CV: Well, that's -- LB: -- that time. CV: Yeah. That's it, you know. Kind of like what we're learning about COVID now, you know -- now we're learning, "Oh, you could be asymptomatic and spreading it around all over the place." Well, there, back in those days, you didn't even know the disease existed. LB: Right. CV: Therefore, having unprotected sex -- what was different today than yesterday. LB: Yeah. CV: "Oh, by the way, you know, maybe one of you two or both of you are positive. And now you both are going to be positive at the end of this." So, you know, you can't really say, you know, "Well, it was you, because, you know, you got sick." And, "Oh, you spread the disease, because you didn't know." LB: Yeah. CV: They really didn't know. You weren't doing anything differently than you were doing a year before -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- except the world had changed in a time. And now anybody who -- after it became obvious what the disease was, and how to prevent it -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- you know, condoms and safe sex -- if you were men practicing on safe sex, then, you know, then that was totally irrational behavior, and, you know, people being mad at you for doing that was absolutely appropriate. LB: Did you think there was a lot of anger at people who were not taking protections to protect their partners? CV: Yeah. I mean there were times I would have to correct people, you know, having this conversation in the bedroom about, "What do you mean you don't want to have condoms? I mean, what do you mean?" LB: Yeah. CV: And now, you know, (laughs) you're not -- you know, I've gone through this, okay. (laughs) This is the wrong house to have this conversation in -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- you know. So yeah. There were people who still, "Oh, well, it's not that important." What? LB: Yeah. CV: I said, "No." Just because I tested negative, you know, two weeks ago, doesn't mean I'm negative today. LB: Yeah. CV: Because, I mean, I think that disease -- HIV has the ability to hang out under the covers for quite a while before it would surface. So it didn't always surface in an immediate time frame. LB: Yeah. Yeah. CV: You know, I mean we may have better tests now. I don't know. But -- LB: Well we have PrEP now. CV: Yeah. LB: That's the thing that we have. And the T load, you know, they understand about if you have a zero load and stuff. CV: Yeah. LB: But, still, you'd have to rely on the person's information -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- and where they got it, and how they understand it, and stuff like that. CV: And the last thing I saw about the PrEP stuff -- I mean that was pretty pricey. LB: Yeah. CV: I mean, don't quote me, but I think it's like a five figure -- you know, ten or twelve-thousand dollars a year for -- LB: Yeah. CV: Does that sound about right? Are you familiar with it? LB: Yeah. It's ridiculous. I mean, in some countries, it's 25 dollars. In our country, it's five-thousand dollars. So, you know, that's it. But the truth -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- is that PrEP -- particularly for people -- and I've said this on other (laughs) videos -- but for people who cannot control what happens to their body. CV: Yeah. LB: And that's true for many people in the world. CV: Yeah. LB: They can't stop getting HIV, because they can't always tell the person that's having sex with them, "No, you can't do that." CV: Yeah. LB: But they can take PrEP, which will keep them from getting it -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- which is a great thing. CV: Yeah. LB: And then, you know, people now, who -- if you take PrEP, you have to be tested. CV: Yeah. LB: You have to be regularly tested. You have to know whether or not you're positive. CV: Yeah. LB: And, actually, people who take PrEP -- they're not cavalier about what they're doing. CV: Yeah. LB: They're being really, really careful. CV: Sure. LB: So it's kind of a good thing. CV: Yeah. Yeah. LB: Well, so at the time that Jim was sick, and at the time that other people that you knew were sick from AIDS, what about healthcare? I mean did you see positive and negative things were happening in the hospital? Because we had somebody in our extended family who -- at the beginning of the epidemic -- who couldn't -- like they wouldn't even bring the tray into the room when he was in the hospital. So -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- this was a little bit later, when Jim was sick. But -- CV: Yeah. LB: But -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- [maybe it was a bit?] earlier. CV: Yeah. He would have been in the hospital during the winter of nineteen-ninety. We took him in in February -- just a few days after my birthday, actually. And he was pretty much in there through April of ninety. And I don't remember there being -- now, I was in there every day from three to whenever they kicked me out -- three to seven. And I don't remember there being any issue. LB: That's good, yeah. CV: The bigger issue was that, you know, the extended family with, you know, all the little nieces and nephews and crying babies, you know, were around too. LB: Yeah. CV: So, you know, there's like crowd control going on. LB: Yeah. CV: And, again, Jim was a member of the medical community, so I'm guessing that, you know, he might have had people taking care of him that knew him from his professional experience in -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- and, you know, just said, "Hey, you know, this is a brother of ours, so we're taking care of our brother." LB: Yeah. CV: But yeah. From what I could gather though -- and Jim had three RN's in the family -- LB: Wow. CV: -- with master's degrees, psychologist, and, (laughs) you know. So there were some heavy-duty materials on the family side -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- at his side too. LB: So they understood the medical circumstances much more than people who were abstract about it -- CV: Yeah. Yeah. LB: -- who didn't have that, or -- CV: Yeah. LB: had it, but -- CV: But of the, you know, three or four, five people that I would visit in the hospital, they never struck me -- again, and these would have been in the late-eighties -- no, it would have been in the nineties, because I think Jim died pretty early in the cycle. LB: Yeah. CV: But, yeah. They were in the nineties. And, you know, people would come in and do their thing and bring food and go back. And some of them were cheery, and, you know, "I'm going to stick you again," you know. LB: Yeah. CV: It's time for another stick," you know. LB: Yeah. Did you know that David Rodale had HIV/AIDS when he got sick and died? Apparently it went very fast for him. CV: I noticed him losing some weight, but he was always into wearing, you know, practically spray-on clothing anyways. So he always looked thin. But, you know, one brief period, I said, "Jeez, you know, he was thin to begin with, you know. What's going on here?" And then I do the usual, "Well, oh, maybe." And then yeah. And then he kind of went out of the public eye for a while. And the next thing I knew, I was reading that he had passed away. LB: Yeah. Did he live on Eighth Street? CV: Yes. LB: Oh, wow. CV: Now, he may have lived other places too, but -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- he lived, you know, near Eighth and Chew. LB: Yeah. Oh. Right there. Right up the street. CV: Yeah. LB: So I didn't know that. I wasn't here -- I think when he died, I hadn't moved here quite yet. It was a couple years later. So let's see. I talked about that. (laughs) CV: Yeah, I'm doing the same thing. (laughter) I've got to put my glasses back on to check. I think I got -- LB: I can't ever take mine off. When FACT really was formed and it started to do some very, very significant work in fundraising, were you involved with it? CV: Yeah. Yeah. I was on their board -- I've lost track of how many years -- and probably went off the board and came back on the board, and was involved with doing my bit at the summer games too. And I think I was also on the committee that dispersed the -- I don't know if they still do -- but we used to call them "contingency funds" -- LB: Okay. CV: -- because we would raise money for a whole lot of purposes, but we would keep a separate stash of money for if somebody needed a pair of glasses, and whatever insurance, or whatever thing they had wouldn't cover the pair of glasses -- could we pay for their glasses. LB: Yeah. CV: Somebody needed another prescription, or if somebody was back in their rent and they couldn't get anybody to pay their rent -- could we pay their rent for them. LB: Yeah. CV: So where costs fell through the system, and nobody had money to fix the front tire on the car -- all those little things that, if you were working, you'd have some income, but if you're not working, you don't have any income, and you're relying on, you know, gifts, and/or some grants to help you along. If there's a gap in there, then it could be the smallest thing, but it could mean maybe you can't go out to get food. So we had this contingency pot that we would use for that. LB: And was that most of the money from FACT? Or did other money go to AIDS Services Center? Because, you know, there was a time when FACT was doing fundraisers that were bringing in a hundred-thousand dollars, at a time when a hundred-thousand dollars was really a lot of money. (laughs) CV: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. LB: Could hold you for the rest of your life. CV: Yeah, well, especially since it was all volunteer. So there was no payroll. LB: Right. Right, right. CV: And I think for a while we had free or reduced rent from Candida and one of her places. So, you know, the operating costs weren't sky-high. LB: Yeah. CV: But the demand for funds, you know -- and I remember the direct service money that we were handing out. We may have also gave -- Services Center pretty early on got absorbed by the hospital system. And either it got absorbed, or it was started there, and merged with our little hotline -- how all that worked, I don't really remember. But if they needed money, you know, or if they had a client who couldn't get their dental fees paid for, they would come to us and ask us to do that for them and other agencies who had AIDS patients. And, you know, over time, you know, it went from -- just like a progression of any disease -- it went from most of those requests being gay male-oriented to HIV, drug user-oriented. And it just switched, you know -- so the gay men figured this out, got the condoms in place, and safe sex, and they started behaving themselves, and the meds started to help them, so it could stabilize the needs in the gay male population. But then the other populations weren't controlling it. So where that was going crazy, then we would have to come in and help, even though FACT was basically a gay organization. And now it's much more diverse at this point. But back in the early days, a few women and a bunch of gay guys around a table -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- making stuff happen. LB: Yeah. I know that a variety of people were involved in education. Did you used to be involved with that to talk to people about the stuff? Or have the opportunity to speak out about what's going on? How to -- CV: I think I did, but it wasn't a major part of what I did. LB: Okay. CV: And I'm not sure -- because by then we had engaged the medical community to help us. So there may have been, you know, somebody from FACT to introduce a medical professional and have them dispense the information. That part's a bit foggy for me. I was always involved with the money part, you know -- raise it and spend it. That's what they (laughs) used me for. LB: Yeah. (laughter) Well, that's what it was about, really. CV: Yeah. (laughs) Raise it and spend it. LB: (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) too. CV: Yeah. LB: Yeah. I mean extraordinary job, with regard to that. I mean there was a time, I think, when medications became -- because, at the beginning -- particularly in 1985, and between eighty-five and ninety -- there was no hope. And it was so dangerous, and there wasn't anything that people could do. So they went to the doctor, and they didn't say, "Well, here. We have these protocols." But then there was medications. CV: Yeah. LB: And some of the medications were very, very successful. Some of them had horrible side effects. Some actually -- and I've talked to a couple people who said that they thought that the medications actually killed the people that they were working with. And then in other circumstances -- but one of the things that Bill Aull said was even though some of the medications had terrible side effects, at least it was hope. CV: Yeah. LB: They were actually doing something. So what was your awareness of the medications that kind of -- CV: And, again, my time to be most intimate with those was Jim's case. And they were just basic, really, you know -- the basic things you would put in place to reduce fevers, and that sort of thing. So the medical -- in the early days, there was hardly any consequence. LB: Yeah. CV: And so I'm not really familiar -- I mean I've heard the stories about some meds being worse than others -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- but we also know that everybody's body handles meds differently. LB: Yeah. CV: So, you know, it could be that this med worked miracles if you had certain conditions in place. And if you didn't, or if your T cells were too far low, or not low enough, they may not trigger, you know -- just like with some of the people getting that overreaction of their immune system to COVID. I mean, it could be the same thing. I mean if you were at a certain point along the HIV spectrum, some of the meds might have been more contradictory than others, depending on your gene make-up and your disease progression. So, you know, a lot was learned over the decades about meds. And the good news is we have, you know, PrEP. Whether people would consider that a vaccine, per say, probably not, you know, which also makes you nervous about COVID. Well, if we'd been pouring money into the research around HIV for decades -- LB: Yes. CV: Now, granted, we're using all kinds of fast track, sped up processes and collaborate-- I mean, all great. But, you know, people are just assuming there's going to be some vaccine. Like you're going to take a tab off a packet and pour it in water, and away, you know -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- COVID's going away. Not going to happen that way. LB: Yeah. CV: Well, I won't get on my soap box. And, I mean, you go down and you go -- I went to a beach and I walked onto the beach, and I looked down one side, and people were packed on top of each other -- no masks, running around. I said, "I've just got to turn around." I said, "This is my favorite beach. I'm leaving." LB: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's true. We had to go to a doctor's appointment that Trisha had -- and it was pretty important, and so we had to go -- it turned out to be everything was fine, but we had to go to the doctor. And we really haven't been out. CV: Oh, right. Right. LB: She's a very high-risk, and, you know, I'm over sixty. I'm at risk too. But she's a very high-risk. I mean, I'm just scared -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- because I can't count on people to do the right thing. CV: Yeah. LB: We had to go over to the (laughs) community center, where one of our cars is parked in the garage there, and it has to be inspected -- the battery's run down, because we haven't used it in so long. CV: Of course. LB: So we had to go get the mileage for the inspection. CV: Yeah. LB: So I had to go into the parking lot. And to get into the parking lot, I had to walk by about twelve people. And maybe three of them had masks. And I was mad. I actually climbed over the wall so I wouldn't have to walk by these people. And I get to the car and look at the odometer, and I can't see it, because the battery (laughs) is -- CV: Oh, right. Right. Right. LB: So then I'm like (laughs) okay, well that's not an option. But I was -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- really [pretty?], "Well, you know, you didn't have to climb over the wall." I said, "I did. There were all these people there. I couldn't get through. There was no way I could have gotten" -- CV: Yeah. LB: You know, the alternative was to walk all the way around the garage. And then I would have passed a whole bunch of people that way too. CV: Yeah. LB: So it's very frightening, I think, and it's as frightening as finding out that people then during the AIDS epidemic were not testing and were not using condoms. CV: Yeah. LB: And I knew that there were people that -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- Steve Black died of AIDS. CV: Yeah. LB: And it was really late. I remember, it was just a little while ago -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- like (inaudible). And I knew Steve well enough to say that I don't think he knew he had it. CV: Or, it's very likely, because he was young enough, that he would have been in an age category that wasn't around for the first wave. And so it came in after all your friends had died. So he got it in I think after -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- the tail end of all that. LB: Yeah. CV: So it wasn't as in your face as much. You know, when you're walking to the club and you see six people that are ready to fall over dead, you know, your awareness of AIDS is pretty high. LB: Sure. CV: If you don't see anybody who's carrying AIDS, and if it's not in the press, and it's not in your face all the time, eh, you know. And that was a worry, and still is. I mean, a lot of the people I lecture to -- "lecture to" in quotes -- about safe sex, you know, are the ones that are in their 30s -- LB: Yeah. Yeah. CV: -- you know. Thirties and forties, because, you know, they were in that section of time where it wasn't a big deal. LB: Yeah. CV: And they're watching porn sites where there's all unprotected sex on these porn sites. So they say, "Okay. Everything must be good." LB: Yeah. CV: And, "No, it's not," you know. "It's not eradicated." LB: And there's also the reality that if you get the disease and you never get tested and you're not treated, then you're going to die. CV: And you're going to infect a whole lot of other people. LB: Right. Right. Did you come in contact with people who were -- I mean, testing became more of an issue and more available -- and certainly more available now, with the rapid test. It's so easy now, in comparison to the way it was. But, you know, how were people advocating testing at that time? CV: Well, I mean, it was the basics. Well, you know, your partner, or if you've had unprotected sex with somebody who you don't know, you know, you need to go get tested. LB: Yeah. CV: And there was the usual reluctance, for two reasons -- number one, "Oh, they're going to tell me I'm going to die. So why should I be in a hurry to go hear this news?" Number one, because there is no cure. LB: Right. CV: Number two, "Oh, now my parents are going to find out." LB: Yeah. CV: "Oh, my work is going to find out." Or, you know, "Somebody else is going to find out." So it had at least two stigmas to it that would have kept people not running out the door to go get tested. LB: I think -- CV: You know, they didn't know what it -- you know, "Do I have to like be signed up? Is my name going to be on some board some--" you know. In early days, there was just no information about, you know, how confidential was this really going to be, can I trust these people, I don't even know who they are, it's not my family doctor -- our family doctor doesn't even know I'm gay. Now he's going to know I'm gay, or she's going to know I'm gay. LB: Yeah. CV: I mean ugh. It's just a whole mess. LB: Yeah. CV: Yeah. LB: Yeah. And Dave Moyer was talking about disease tracking, you know -- once they had a positive person, they really had to say to them, "Okay, you have to tell us everybody that we have to notify." CV: Yeah. LB: And they were like, "Well you're going to tell them it came from me." So they're not going to tell them, but they might (laughs) be able to figure it out -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- you know. But we have to do this. CV: Yeah. LB: There's this, "Oh, you're putting this putting at colossal risk." CV: Yeah. LB: But it's interesting -- what you just said about testing, and one of the reasons that people didn't get tested was that if they were positive, their family was going to find out, or their boss was going to find out, or their neighbors, or something like that. And that talks a lot to the fact that most people in those days were closeted to at least a segment of the population. CV: Yeah. LB: I mean there's you and me and Trish, who every single person in the world knows, you know -- you ran for office as an openly gay man. (laughter) But not everybody's like us. And -- CV: True. True. And, in some cases, thank God (laughs), you know. But, to be honest, you know, when I first came to the Valley, I wasn't out, oddly -- I mean, believe it or not. And you have some personal experience with this, too, in that I used two names -- the Charlie, and the Chuck. LB: Yeah. CV: And, growing up as a kid, I was always Chuck, because my father was Charlie. And then somewhere along the way, in high school, the same kids that used to call me Chuck started calling me Charlie. I don't know how that happened. It just happened. LB: Yeah. CV: So I became a Charlie, and I was a Charlie all through college and grad school. And then when I moved here, I was a Charlie. But then when I started going to the Stonewall, I said, "Hmm. Maybe I'll be a Chuck here." LB: (laughs) Oh, that's interesting. CV: So when I hear someone call my name -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- I know where they're coming from. (laughs) LB: I get it. CV: How I know this person. LB: Yeah. CV: So that was the beginning of all that. And that, of course, all collapsed once, you know, Jimmy moved in, and, you know, people started coming here, and they would hear him call me Chuck. And they would go, "Who's that?" And, as more gay people came out at Air Products, the ones who knew me from the Stonewall as Chuck then all of a sudden went, "Wait a minute. Who's this Charlie guy? Is it the same guy we know, you know? How come he's got two names?" LB: Yeah. CV: And, as it turns out, there were lots of people that I met -- mostly guys -- who had two names. But it was more of a childhood thing, you know -- their real name was Harold, but -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- all their friends called them Butch. And their real name was Paul, but his family called him Skip, you know. And it was all these -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- there are versions to that all over the place, but mine had just a slightly different twist to it. And then I finally said, "That's enough," you know. (laughs) I can't (inaudible), and there's no reason for this to be. So it didn't have to be this complicated. LB: But the circumstances of you living with Jim -- and then really Jim dying, too -- really must have put you into the light, in terms of that you were gay. And did you find that there was problems with that? I mean did that happen? CV: Well, no. I mean I think people knew way before he died -- LB: [Can you move?] the microphone? CV: Oh, I'm sorry. Am I muting it? LB: Yeah. CV: Okay. LB: Something's rubbing ag-- there you go. That's good. CV: Okay. What was that? What was bothering the sound before? LB: (laughs) It's okay now. It's good. CV: Okay. It was just my notes, and I didn't want to have to -- LB: Oh, yeah. No -- CV: -- (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible). LB: -- that's what was happening. So you've got to -- CV: Yeah. So I had them up on the keyboard -- who knew that I had it on top of the microphone? I didn't know -- in fact, I never even knew where the microphone was on this bloody thing. Anyway. So people knew. I mean, again, when he was not sick, we would have parties here at the house, and there would be company parties, and I would bring Jim. So, you know, again, it was before rainbow flags out in front of the house things, but people drew their own conclusions. They said, "Okay, that's his date. And that's his date then, and again it was his date next time" -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- "and five years later, he's still the date. Maybe this is something going on, okay." (laughs) So, I mean, people just drew their own conclusions. And, again, I used to make people uncomfortable, because whenever they asked me about my experience being discriminated against, I'd say, "Well, you know, I'm discriminated against more because I'm five foot two than I am" -- (laughter) because I just never felt discriminated against being gay -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- you know. But seriously. At least in those days, and in the Air Products mentality -- I mean there was the physical, "This is what you look like," if you were going to be a senior manager -- "this is what you look like." And if you don't look like that, it doesn't make any difference what you are. If you don't look like that, you've got to perform your way into the circle. LB: Yeah. That's a good point. CV: So I just performed my way into the circle -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- and got there. And then they said, "Well, how did he get here?" you know. LB: Yeah. CV: And then they wiped the sweat off their brow, and said, "Well, thank God. Because we needed a gay senior manager. (laughter) So aren't we lucky. We didn't have to go" -- LB: You totally balance it out -- CV: -- "look for one." LB: -- though by not having a high, squeaky voice. So that's the -- CV: Oh, yeah. LB: -- you get away with being your height if your voice is like yours. CV: Well there's a funny story about that, too. And a lot of the vendors I would deal with in the IT community would just know me from the voice on the phone. LB: Sure. CV: And then they would come to the office to come meet me, and then they would always be, "Well where's the guy on the phone?" Like looking over my head like there was somebody else in the room. LB: Oh, that's funny. CV: I said, "No, this is the guy on the phone." (laughs) LB: Yeah. CV: "Oh, wow." LB: But, you know, in terms of discrimination -- and I've talked to a lot of people about this -- I mean there are some very significant instances of discrimination that are not unique circumstances, with regard to somebody, you know, throwing a brick through your window with "fag" -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- written on it or something. But let's face it -- you couldn't marry him. CV: Right. Right. At least not then. LB: And that would have been a very different thing. And when, you know, Steven Olofson died -- did you know Robert Rousch and Steve Olofson? CV: Yeah. LB: And Steve died of prostate cancer, and it was a long time, and at the end he was in hospice care. And Robert did a program for me -- Robert said -- this is relatively recently -- he said, "If I hadn't been married to him, I don't know how I could possibly have gone through this." CV: Yeah. LB: Because every single day, somebody would come in and say, "Well, who are you?" In hospice, you know -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- go in his room, or making decisions for him -- because he was really not able to make decisions for himself anymore. And he would say, "I'm his husband." And then they'd just be done with it. CV: Yeah. LB: Because he could make legal decisions himself. CV: Was that pre or post-HIPPA? LB: Oh, this just happened. CV: Okay. LB: I mean this happened -- I don't know -- three years ago, maybe four years ago. I think -- CV: You see, I don't -- LB: -- it's been (inaudible) since Steve died. CV: Yeah. Because I think again, back in the -- LB: Well, that's a good point -- the HIPPA -- CV: -- nineties. LB: Yeah. CV: I mean, if you want to know who was in the hospital, you can just ask the lady at the front desk (laughs), you know -- LB: Yeah, that's true. CV: -- "What room is it? Okay, thank you." Off you went, you know. But you did remind me that I was in the room when they had an attorney -- the hospital arranged to have an attorney to come, and a notary, and we took care of the advance directives and the will and everything, out of his hospital bed. LB: Yeah. CV: I remember, you know, pre-making up the disbursement checks -- he wanted handed out -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- and having him sign them before -- he authorized me as his power of attorney. So we did all that at his hospital bed. And, I mean, yeah, we weren't able to be married -- but, again, in those days, the regulations about who could come to the room and who could be providing help or providing care was not so rigid as they are now. LB: Except for that they could have said, "You can't be in here." CV: Yeah, they could have. LB: You could have had somebody -- because that actually almost happened to me. Trish was in an accident, and I rushed to the hospital. She was in the hospital, and she was knocked out -- she was injured. And, you know, I was in the hospital room with her. I wanted to stay there all night. They said she had a major concussion -- she could die in the night or something. I'm not leaving. CV: Yeah. LB: And then I was helping to fill out the form, and they said, "Well, do you have a power of attorney?" And I said, "Yeah. I have it in my pocket." CV: Yeah. LB: Because I never went anywhere without it. CV: Yeah. LB: And I had it in my pocket. Because they were going to throw me out of the room. CV: Yeah. LB: And that was a long time ago -- I mean it was about 20 years ago. But I think that the significance of that was that if it had been somebody who was the decision maker at that moment. Had they been somebody who was extraordinarily anti-gay -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- or really fearful of HIV/AIDS, they could have just said, "You have to leave." CV: Yeah. LB: So, you know, you can be in a circumstance where -- one of the things that -- this has become really apparent to me -- is that the Lehigh Valley really had an excellent response to AIDS -- CV: Oh, absolutely. LB: -- compared to other communities -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- that were terrible about it, and just let everybody die, and, you know, discriminated against them, and -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- bury them, and that kind of stuff. They just turned it's back on the entire gay population -- gay, male population -- CV: Yeah. LB: (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible). But the Lehigh Valley -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- and part of it was because that community center existed already, I think. CV: Yeah. LB: So there was -- CV: There was a community organization, and then quickly following it was FACT, and then the bar organizations as a fundraising machine -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- for the summer games and other things. And then you had the beginnings of the AIDS Services Center -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- and they had social services wrapping around. And the AIDS Services Center really being driven by the hospital system. LB: Right, right. CV: So you had the medical community engaged with the gay and lesbian community organizations. And it did kind of come together probably as a model way of dealing with an AIDS epidemic in that era, and probably on the -- you know, outside of San Francisco and New York -- may well have been in the forefront. LB: I think so. I think so. And part of that was there was a large part of the community that was out -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- and would be activists -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- who would stand up to be activists. And HIV -- I mean, when you'd have a common enemy like that -- because this was [the problem?] -- you are in a situation where people are banding together to help each other. And, you know, before that, I think there had been a sort of division between the gay, male population and the lesbian population. And this kind of brought this together, in terms of a force of people who were there to help each other. CV: Yeah. LB: I mean even the fact that we had three gay bars -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- or we had two gay bars in nineteen eighty-five -- just meant that people had a place to go every week -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- every day, if they want to -- to be around other gay people. And -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- that's what it was. And these weren't like little back rooms where like nobody knew they were there. CV: Yeah. LB: And I've been to bars -- I went to bars like that. CV: Yeah, yeah. LB: But, no, there was a very strong community and leadership within the community that was significant, I think. CV: Yeah. LB: And not just one leader, too. CV: Right. LB: It was not just one person that was doing stuff. CV: Yeah. LB: And, in many cases, there were communities where the one person had AIDS and died, and that was the end of the whole circumstance of activism. CV: Yeah. Yeah. And in organizations where there's not a lot of death, and they're dependent on one charismatic leader, and, you know, it's all defined by the one person, and then the one person goes -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- and everything else goes too. LB: Yeah. CV: Yeah. LB: Well, we're coming to the end. We've got about ten minutes left. CV: Yeah. LB: So, you know, I've talked to a lot of people about how this archive -- so this is all going to be archived at Muhlenberg. CV: Yeah. LB: And we've given all the papers -- Dixie White's papers -- forteen boxes of Dixie White's papers went over there -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- in just the last -- and I had a whole bunch of stuff from her -- and our papers and everything have all gone to Muhlenberg to be digitalized and stuff -- and we've been working on that for four years. It's in conjunction with the community center. We actually own it -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- but they're doing the work on it. CV: Right. LB: We generate the grants and stuff. And so this particular project is coming through Muhlenberg as well -- it's going to be digitalized. And so there's a really good chance that, you know, thirty or forty or fifty years from now, somebody's going to see this. CV: Okay. LB: So what do you want to say to them about that time, and maybe about this time too? I mean you've said a lot, so if you can't think of anything, that's fine. (laughter) CV: Well, you know, the question you're asking is "What would I tell my thirty year old friend thirty years from now?" LB: Yeah. CV: Hmm. Well part of it is that, you know, there's a whole bunch of messages now that are flooding through my mind. LB: (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible). CV: (laughs) And some of it is tainted by our current situation. But at number one -- I mean, I'll quote some of Tom Friedman, from yesterday's New York Times -- you know, "Science. There's this thing about science. So when you're dealing with disease, diseases are a function of science. So if you want to understand the disease, you've got to understand the science behind it. And that doesn't come from whatever the thirty year version of Facebook looks like, it doesn't come from the thirty year version of Twitter, it doesn't come from the thirty year any of those things. It's going to come from the science organizations and the researchers who are leading this charge" -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- "and they're not going to know everything on day one" -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- "they're not going to know much more than anybody else on day one" -- LB: Right. CV: -- "and it's really the caliber and the quality and the robustness of the intellectual science community, globally, coming together to go solve the diseases of the future." I mean that's how this one -- this COVID thing -- is going to get addressed, hopefully, and solved. And that's what was lacking thirty years ago in the AIDS world is that, you know, the research and science communities were scattered. They had no way of collaborating other than a phone call, or mailing -- God forbid -- mailing a research paper from one place to -- maybe fax. You could probably fax it, you know. But that was the extent of the network back in those days. So now we'll have a whole more robust communications world -- and that will be even much more easy to use and abuse -- that we have today. So one message is to leverage science, and make sure they have the tools and the technologies to help them work together on a global basis to solve, you know, whatever the disease problem is of the future. LB: Yeah. CV: Secondly is when there's a disease, you've got to learn what it means to you. You've got to figure that out. And you're not going to read it, again, by listening to a Facebook post about what it means to somebody else. No. You've got to unplug the things out of your damn ears and sit down and do some pondering, do some reading, and figure out what this disease means to you, to your family, to your friends, what are the risks to you, personally, and to the ones you love -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- you've got to understand those risks, understand the science, and then you take your responsibility -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- just like you did, jumping around the parking lot to get away from people. LB: Yeah. CV: You can take responsibility to manage your exposure to that disease and your reaction to it. And, yeah, the government may come by at some point and, you know, hand out masks and whatever. But if people don't take the personal responsibility to put the damn mask on -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- you know, it's macht nichts). It doesn't make any sense. So those are my nuggets -- my nuggets for the thirty years in the future. LB: Okay. I'll give you one more opportunity to comment on this, because when we talk about the difference between AIDS and COVID,one of the p roblems with the stigma of AIDS in the nineteen-eighties is that, governmentally, even the science world was not as desperate to deal with the disease and the cure for it, because it was affecting a minority group that they didn't like very much. And that can happen in other circumstances as well. This is only affecting poor people in Africa. CV: Yeah. LB: Or it's only affecting poor people in the United States -- in the slums of the United States. CV: Yeah. LB: So should we rush to figure this out? Or is it not as important? Now, right now, COVID is kicking everybody in the head. CV: Yeah. LB: Well everybody in the science world is trying to figure it out, which is pretty significant. So we may accelerate the understanding of this disease, simply because every scientist is working on it, as opposed to HIV/AIDS, where nobody even mentioned it for two years, you know, in a lot of those. CV: And this is more complex. LB: Yeah. CV: And one of the key differentiators -- and may be the key differentiator -- and this is going to sound terrible -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- is that HIV/AIDS did not pose an economic impact -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- regardless of who -- regardless of who it was. LB: Yeah. CV: If it was only attacking senior people in the senior center, you know, period, and no one else -- even if there were ten times the number of AIDS cases, there was not an economic impact. LB: That's a good point. Yeah. CV: The accelerator, for now, why this global thing is -- is the global shut down. LB: Yeah. CV: Well, you can't do that. LB: Yeah. CV: Now, it made the environmentalists happy. I mean, from a guy who spends his time four months in Jamaica, it made me happy for Jamaica, because the environment there gets a chance to breathe. LB: Yeah. CV: And here. I mean the air cleaned up here, you know, the noise. But the economic impact is the killer -- that's the deal. And I might be biased, but my perspective is that it's the economics that drove this free-for-all, go after the virus. LB: I think that's very -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- very reasonable. CV: I mean I think -- LB: But, economically to figure out that the way to slow this down is by wearing masks is ultimately going to make everybody have to wear masks. Yeah. It is often always about money. CV: Yeah. LB: It's about the economy, it's about greed -- but also, you know, I mean you said, "Well this is better for people." But you could say, "Well, look, you know, we're talking about fifty-thousand cases a day now." So if we've got fifty-thousand cases a day -- and that's an exponential thing. It's not fifty-thousand cases every day for the rest -- it's going to be fifty-thousand(inaudible). Pretty soon, it's going to be a hundred-thousand cases a week. And if that happens, somebody in a governmental situation is going to say, "Okay, now everybody has to wear a mask, we have to shut down. Otherwise, we're never going to stop this. So we have to -- I don't know -- evoke martial law." And people could say, "Well I don't want to do that." Well too bad -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- because there's money involved. And sometimes that really makes the difference. I think that is the case. CV: Unfortunately, it's sad -- LB: Yeah. CV: -- because, you know, the forty-thousand who died because of COVID, you know, are no more or less important than the forty-thousand who have died in AIDS. LB: Sure. CV: Those lives are the same lives, you know. LB: Yeah. CV: And the forty-thousand, plus, that died from car accidents, and all the other things that people die from. But none of those things shut down the globe. LB: Yeah. Yeah. That's true. CV: Okay. LB: That's very true. Well you've been brilliant, as usual. (laughter) CV: That's just because my shiny head is in the light above me. LB: Not at all. Not at all. (laughter) [Actually?] it's a terrific picture -- your house looks great. CV: Oh, thank you. LB: I think I could practically see it if I just look like this -- because I'm on my third floor, looking out the -- CV: Oh, yeah. Okay. Okay. LB: But I really appreciate this, and I do want to say, for posterity, that Charlie Versaggi, or Chuck Versaggi -- either one -- has been an enormous, significant beacon, with regard to not only the work that codified the fight against AIDS in the Lehigh Valley, but working for the civil rights of people in the Lehigh Valley. Because you did some really important things right at the beginning, including -- I remember in ninteen ninety-eight when we were fighting for a passage of the ordinance that you got I think the vice president from Air Products to come and speak. Do you remember that? And you said, "Yeah, I could do it. But here's this guy" -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- "really high up in the" -- CV: Yeah. LB: -- "corporation." And that was very significant that that happened -- and that's just one of dozens of things that you've done I think that really mattered. I really appreciate that very much, Charlie. CV: Oh. LB: Thank you for all the work you've done. So, you know, that -- CV: I spend my time on things that are important. LB: Well I really appreciate that, and I hope that we can -- I'm going to turn off the thing now, but I really appreciate all the work you've done. Let me turn this recor-- END OF AUDIO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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Charles Versaggi, July 2, 2020
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Charlie Versaggi talks about the early days if the HIV/AIDS epidemic, the loss of his partner to AIDS, his work with the Lambda Community Center (formerly Le-Hi-Ho), the AIDS Services Center, and Fighting AIDS Continuously Together (FACT).
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2020-07-02
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: HIV/AIDS
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In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Liz Bradbury
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Nan Kozul
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_15.xml
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5.4 June 21, 2020 Nan Kozul, June 21, 2020 (Part 2) PH40_15 00:52:36 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg AIDS (Disease) Nan Kozul Liz Bradbury video/mpeg KozulNanPart2_20200621_video.mp4 1.0:|23(8)|60(16)|83(5)|100(2)|117(13)|132(5)|149(6)|166(16)|183(13)|202(8)|227(6)|250(5)|269(15)|290(8)|303(16)|322(4)|341(4)|358(4)|377(2)|394(5)|413(10)|432(7)|447(10)|470(3)|487(5)|508(2)|531(3)|546(9)|565(13)|584(6)|601(6)|622(12)|639(12)|662(3)|689(5)|710(2)|731(14)|756(8)|777(2)|794(4)|815(3)|832(6)|851(10)|878(6)|901(7)|926(7)|945(5)|964(13)|989(8)|1010(2)|1027(9)|1050(4)|1071(5) 0 https://youtu.be/WsMLJ9ciPI0 YouTube video 0 Interview Introduction 0 116 Using Reiki to help AIDS patients LB: Okay. So we started talking before, so once again this is the second part, this is part two, of Nan Kozul’s interview of talking about the HIV/AIDS epidemic in the nineteen eighties and nineties. So part one is already available and I think in part one we were talking a lot about -- well, we were talking about in general a lot of things, about some of the things you were doing and where you were working and people that you knew. And since we talked, because of those surprise technical difficulties, have you thought anymore about that? Like, I thought I should have said these things, or did it make you think about those things more? I think it was -- what do you think?
 ; 
 ; NK: Well, I realized that AIDS wasn’t a quick killer. Like I saw my friends who wound up with AIDS, they kind of -- it went slowly. I just remember some of my friends just kind of like losing weight, and just getting sickly, but it wasn’t fast. 0 584 Pranks by the Stonewall and Candida's / Stealing the "Candida's" record and tying up Nan LB: I was talking to Larry Kleppinger and at the end of the interview he started to tell me about all the wacky things that two bars did to each other.
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 ; NK: Oh, my God.
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 ; LB: Do you remember any of those? [laughter] I was talking to Trish about this and he was talking about all these crazy things. And then what ultimately happened was Candida’s said okay, now we’ve got to do something. We’ve got to make this pay, in effect. So talk about that a little bit, what do you think?
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 ; NK: (laughs) That was just --
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 ; LB: The memories of -- 0 759 Creation of FACT / The Summer Olympics and Bar Games NK: And all for a good cause, just to eventually come down to that point where everyone got together and created FACT. And then to have the games at Rainbow Mountain. Everyone took it so seriously for a number of reasons: for competition and to win, but also to know that the end result was we were getting money and creating something to help people. So it was really cool.
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 ; LB: Did you work at the games or did you have a table? What was that like?
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 ; NK: The games were -- (laughs) they came up with different things like drag racing, “drag” racing where they had to put on a hat -- it was hysterical. So there was a start and end. 0 1015 Men hooking up at the bar LB: I think you have to explain what you mean by that.
 ; 
 ; NK: Oh, well (laughs). It was new to me. Hell, I never saw women do that (laughs) but guys would just hook up. I remember being behind the bar and seeing a guy nod and (laughs) and they would talk and they would leave and they would go out and whatever they did. And then they would come back in. And sometimes -- I know of one guy that came into the bar, he would do it a lot. 0 1200 Women being HIV positive / Taking care of people who were ill LB: I wanted to talk about what that kind of stuff that was happening and there were people that were in. So I’m trying to -- suddenly aware that there was an issue. And I think I asked you before about people that were -- everybody stepped up. I think people really stepped up. LGBT people suddenly thought, okay, this is about us. We have to take care of each other. And people started to really take care of each other, especially when families were ostracizing their children, their sons who were HIV positive. Not very many in those days got HIV in our community I don’t think. I don’t know. Did you know any women who were HIV positive that you were aware of?
 ; 
 ; NK: No, even though I have to tell you, I work in a doctor’s office and I marvel at the amount of women that are HIV now. Just having me go into their -- read their history with the patients. I marvel at how many women are positive today. Because you didn’t see that in the eighties. 0 1367 FACT raising money for direct aid LB: And that was one of the reasons that FACT started up was to help people finance (inaudible). Because that wasn’t -- in fact, I don’t know that people really understand that FACT wasn’t around to raise money for research or something. It was direct aid.
 ; 
 ; NK: Direct aid. Absolutely, Liz. It was directly to help them. I remember when FACT first started out I just vaguely remember people getting groceries for people that were positive, taking them to doctor’s appointments, stuff like that. 0 1453 Stigmas and lack of knowledge about AIDS LB: And there was a time -- were you aware of a time where people really thought if you just went into a gay bar, you just walked around people, or you might have been in the restroom. People thought you could get it from toilet seats, do you remember that?
 ; 
 ; NK: Yeah, some of it was such nonsense with how you could catch AIDS. It was idiotic. It was a blood-borne thing. And I was -- it was transmission through blood. So I remember Johnny, this one guy that lived in Philly, we all kissed him. 0 1717 Friends who are HIV positive and how they grow older / Watching people get frail and come to the bar less LB: There must be twenty people dying at the beginning of the epidemic in six months and then improving forty years (inaudible).
 ; 
 ; NK: I’m just curious, my friends that are HIV today, how they’ll fare moving forward. Some of them are in their sixties, early-mid sixties, late sixties, and they’re still plugging along (laughs) so it’s really awesome to know that that medication was able to keep the numbers down that they’re not symptomatic. 0 1873 Jeff's bar / Diamondz opening in 1992 LB: What were the other bars? There was Jeff’s. Tell me about Jeff’s. I went to Jeff’s maybe all of one time and then it was kind of not there. I think I came to the Lehigh Valley in nineteen eighty-seven so I think I went one time. And then I met Trish and we weren’t really hitting bars but it was right then when we met. But what was that bar? I don’t think it was there much longer after nineteen eighty-seven or eight. Is that true?
 ; 
 ; NK: No. That’s funny because I actually (laughs) googled it because I was curious, like, wow, when did Jeff close his bar? Because I couldn’t remember when he closed it. I know it was up for eighty-eight, eighty-nine, and then it closed. And then Diamondz opened up in ninety-two I think. 0 2080 Candida's bar being like a family NK: (laughs) It’s crazy. Dina’s bar was so -- Candida’s was a small bar but I just remember how much of a family -- like we were talking. It was such a family. We did such things in that bar that were just so crazy. Like just fun things that it would be wall to wall people. Like you could not move. And it was just amazing. And we accepted everybody. And that’s what was so great about Candida’s. And even during that time when HIV was prominent there was never anyone that was shunned. And that’s the beauty of what gay people are about because we are so loving and so accepting, do you know what I mean? 0 2154 Uninformed assumptions on how HIV/AIDS was transmitted / President Clinton working to remove the stigma of having HIV LB: Did you ever have a circumstance -- and this happened to me -- a circumstance where you were talking to somebody about HIV who was not in the know and they said negative things about it and you said, “that’s not true.” That kind of thing. Did that ever happen to you, where people --?
 ; 
 ; NK: Not in the bar.
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 ; LB: I mean anytime in your experience.
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 ; NK: Oh, in anytime? Oh, yeah. (laughs) People were just -- I mean, before they came out with the -- about it being transferred through anal sex, they were -- I would hear people say, “no, you can get it from spit, you can get it from kissing, you can get it from touching.” 0 2411 New York Times article on Reiki being administered to AIDS patients NK: Well, I remembered after we were done talking, I said to Barb, wow, I forgot to tell Liz about the New York Times article about the reiki because in the eighties it was all about being spiritual (laughs) and just tapping into your quiet place and reiki was a great modality. People didn’t understand it but I thought it was really progressive for The New York Times to have such a big article and how impacted a lot of the gay men and giving them a moment of peace or calm by just administering reiki to them. 0 2465 Bartending and reflections on the 1980s NK: But I feel so blessed to be able to be a part -- remember, I said to Dina I would never want to redo the eighties because there were some sad times but there were so many good times. And I think it was because we were all interconnected. We all felt safe. What’s really funny is because I bartended in the gay bars for so many years, I mean I bartended at the Stonewall, I bartended at Candida’s and Jeff’s Cityline Pub, 13th Street Pub in Easton, I mean I tended Rainbow Mountain, I went down to New Hope and I bartended there sometimes. And so being in that community, it allowed me to just be myself and just have fun. And I remember (laughs) finally actually moving. I wound up managing a straight bar that was the sister to the Chicken Lounge. It was Marble’s down in Phillipsburg. 0 2698 Differences in bars for men and women / Lesbians supporting gay men in the community during the AIDS epidemic LB: Do you think that that’s because -- I think there was a big difference between the seventies and the eighties in terms of the division between men’s bars -- men’s and women’s bars -- because I went to a woman’s bar. And I talk about this all the time and now I can’t think of the name. It’s in Baltimore and it was --
 ; 
 ; NK: In New York?
 ; 
 ; LB: Club Mitchell. It was in Baltimore. And this was a bar that would not allow men in unless they knew the men. 0 2881 Valley Gay Press and Steve Black / Political activism / Gay and Lesbian Task Force / Le-Hi-Ho and the AIDS Services Center LB: One of the things that people need to understand, I think, is that in the nineteen-eighties, while we did have just the beginnings of some other groups that weren’t bar-oriented, like we had GLOSS, that sports group, and Force was kind of starting up, and MCC had been going for awhile. And then we had the League -- Gay and Lesbian Task -- or Lehigh Valley Gay and Lesbian Task Force. And then just after that we started PA-GALA. And there had been Le-Hi-Ho, which had been both men and women. But really in the eighties, the only thing that was really going in the eighties was the bars. And if the bars hadn’t existed, nothing else would have come out of that because that’s where people started out where they started to make --
 ; 
 ; NK: Wow. That’s so true. When did your Valley Press come out, when did that come out?
 ; 
 ; LB: Valley Gay Press, we started the Valley Gay Press in nineteen-- so Trish and I met Steve Black in nineteen ninety-four and we began to work on political stuff with him that year. I think we started the Valley Gay Press in nineteen ninety-eight. 0 MovingImage Nan Kozul talks about the early days of the AIDS epidemic in the Lehigh Valley of Pennsylvania. She focuses on working in several local LGBT bars, including Candida's ; her work in healthcare ; AIDS discrimination ; the formation of Fighting AIDS Continuously Together (FACT) ; and friends who became sick. This interview took place over two days because of technical difficulties. NAN KOZUL - PART 2 LIZ BRADBURY: So I have to say, with this Bradbury-Sullivan LGBTQ Community Center and the Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on this "40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19." My name is Liz Bradbury and I'm here with Nan Kozul to talk to her about her experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of the COVID-19 pandemic as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive. [Pause it?] here, hold on a minute. Okay. And thank you so much for your willingness to speak to us again. This is part two of Nan Kozul's interview, there were some technical difficulties the first time. So you can see part one that I've already uploaded. So to start, Nan, can you please give us your full name and spell it for me? NAN KOZUL: Nan Kozul. It's N-a-n K-o-z-u-l. LB: And will you please share your birthdate? NK: Five fifteen fifty-eight. LB: Okay. Do you consent to this interview today? NK: Yes. LB: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable formats? NK: Yes. LB: Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats, including films, articles, websites, presentations, and other formats? NK: Yes. LB: Do you understand that you have thirty days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview and identify any parts you would like to delete and/or withdraw from the project? NK: Yes. LB: Okay. So we started talking before, so once again this is the second part, this is part two, of Nan Kozul's interview of talking about the HIV/AIDS epidemic in the nineteen eighties and nineties. So part one is already available and I think in part one we were talking a lot about -- well, we were talking about in general a lot of things, about some of the things you were doing and where you were working and people that you knew. And since we talked, because of those surprise technical difficulties, have you thought anymore about that? Like, I thought I should have said these things, or did it make you think about those things more? I think it was -- what do you think? NK: Well, I realized that AIDS wasn't a quick killer. Like I saw my friends who wound up with AIDS, they kind of -- it went slowly. I just remember some of my friends just kind of like losing weight, and just getting sickly, but it wasn't fast. It was just long. And what was interesting, actually one thing that I did think about was I remember reading an article in the eighties, in The New York Times about reiki. And how a lot of reiki practitioners were working on AIDS patients in New York City and finding that it really helped. Which actually catapulted me into wanting to become a reiki master and pursue reiki. And I did work on a few people, which was really cool, and it did work. It just calmed them. It wasn't a -- no one was miraculously healed, it was just more of a comforting, calming, that some of my friends felt. LB: What kind of -- you were talking a lot about all the different things that happened with the bars and I think a universal theme of talking about HIV/AIDS with regard to the Lehigh Valley in the eighties is really the involvement with the bars. But you were talking about some people that you really knew that were sick and people who were working through these things too. And did you want to talk any more about some of those folks that you knew, or things that you remembered about them, or what it was like then that people in the future could know? NK: Well, the friends that I have know that are still positive, that are still here living, they just live life at the fullest. Danny, I think you know Danny, he just was a wild and crazy guy in the eighties (laughs) and he still is today. But him and his partner have been together, oof, probably thirty-some years. And both are HIV but their constitution and their will to live, it's awesome. And my friend Pete, he's just amazing. I'm so glad we got to a point where we were able to find a cure somewhat, to be able to keep this HIV from killing so many people. It is, it's such a relief because I think I would have lost a lot more friends had that not happened. I think that's it as far as from what I remember of my friends that are still here today. LB: What do you think -- for a lot of people at that time, and there were loads of deaths and it was really terrible in those days, and then some people didn't die and then some people -- what do you think was the difference there? What was it? What do you think? NK: That's a really good question, Liz. I used to wonder why some people deteriorated at a much quicker time than others. It's interesting. About -- let's see, maybe ten years ago I was at Candida's and a friend of mine that -- he started to lose weight. He was always healthy and I never knew that he was positive. And he actually came up to the bar and he had a bag and he had a port. And one of the -- the IV line had popped out and I saw it and he put it back in and he said, "oh, man" and he took me to the corner of the bar. We were sitting at a table and he was like, "you know, Nan, I actually have AIDS." And I'm like, "wow, I never knew that about you." Because he looked so healthy. And he said, "well, right now I have pneumonia and a nasty infection, but I have this bag and this port and it's really helping me a lot." And I'm like, "well, that's good. And hopefully it'll knock it out." But one of the things that unfortunately as AIDS -- you know, as people that carry HIV, as it progresses, I think eventually it just wears on your organs and he wound up passing away maybe six or seven months later. But I was shocked. I had no clue. He kept that very private and he hadn't -- I mean, I'm sure other people knew but he had never said anything to me. So when he talked to me about it I was shocked because he always looked healthy, he was always fun and we always had a lot of fun together. Picnics and stuff like that. But I think that -- I can't imagine that for anyone that was diagnosed in the eighties that has to take that medication for prolonged use, inevitably I'm sure that it takes a toll on your liver and your kidneys and overall. LB: Some people might not know what a port is. (inaudible) NK: A port is typically a catheter that's put in a larger vein for quicker access for medications. So that's what a port is. It's a different type of catheter that IV medicine can be administered. LB: I was talking to Larry Kleppinger and at the end of the interview he started to tell me about all the wacky things that two bars did to each other. NK: Oh, my God. LB: Do you remember any of those? [laughter] I was talking to Trish about this and he was talking about all these crazy things. And then what ultimately happened was Candida's said okay, now we've got to do something. We've got to make this pay, in effect. So talk about that a little bit, what do you think? NK: (laughs) That was just -- LB: The memories of -- NK: I want to tell you, Liz, it was so (laughs) -- just the things we did to each other were -- I can actually hear Larry laughing right now because he has such a boisterous laugh. And the things that him and the other bartenders would do to Dina's staff, like us, it was so dastardly. (laughs) It was so funny. The one Sunday afternoon I bartended, and I always bartended on Sunday afternoon. And I opened the bar up. And at two o'clock no customers would be in there. So I opened the bar up and Dina used to have "Candida's" by Tony Orlando and Dawn in the jukebox. It was a little forty-five RPM that he had in the jukebox. And we had a key into the jukebox. Well, he and a couple other guys came in. And I'm like, "hey," and they just had this look on their face, and I'm like, "what are you guys doing?" And with that they took a chair, and they put it in the middle of the dance floor. And I'm like, "what are you guys doing?" And they're like, "come here, Nan." (laughs) And I'm like, "do I have a choice?" And they're like, "no." And I sat on the chair and they tied me to the chair. (laughs) And they went to the jukebox and stole "Candida," the record, and they left me there, tied up. And I'm sitting there. Dina can't here me, so (laughs) I'm sitting there, I'm like, "oh, my gosh, a customer's going to walk in and think that we were robbed." And who walked in but Linda Mason. So Linda walks in and she goes, "what are you doing?" (laughs) And I'm like, "untie me" (laughs). And it was just the funniest thing. And then one night we went commando and Dean decided we were going to Silly String the Stonewall. We went one night and oh, my gosh. We busted in the front doors with Silly String and just annihilated everyone that was sitting around the bar. It was -- I want to tell you, Liz, those were some of the greatest times of just having just so much fun. And all for a good cause, just to eventually come down to that point where everyone got together and created FACT. And then to have the games at Rainbow Mountain. Everyone took it so seriously for a number of reasons: for competition and to win, but also to know that the end result was we were getting money and creating something to help people. So it was really cool. LB: Did you work at the games or did you have a table? What was that like? NK: The games were -- (laughs) they came up with different things like drag racing, "drag" racing where they had to put on a hat -- it was hysterical. So there was a start and end. And there were all different kind of things, whether it was in the pool or whether it was out in the grass, but I know the one year that I was going to compete on Dina's team and I actually dislocated my ankle and broke my foot. So I was in a cast so I couldn't do anything. But it was so funny because Larry Kleppinger sent me a picture of me on my crutches at the games. He had a picture of me. And I'm like, "oh, my gosh." (laughs) It was so bizarre. But it was neat. And then there was always a trophy at the end. And it was just fun. It was so meaningful at the time because we were setting a precedent for the future. I think that young people today get it. Back in the eighties there was a lot of promiscuity, like crazy stuff. And the HIV epidemic really curbed it. I just remember seeing a lot less traffic and stuff like that coming in and out of the bar. LB: How long do you think it took for people to understand that there was a tie between promiscuity and getting the disease and then passing it around? This is a relatively small community so one would think that if people didn't understand how to get it, if somebody had been in New York, they got infected, they came back, that it could really go through the community? Was there that kind of feeling about that? NK: Another awesome question, Liz. Just from what I saw, I thought it took quite a few years until it really made its presence known that guys were becoming positive. In the beginning I remember thinking in my head it was going to stop. (laughs) And it didn't. It went on for awhile. It took years until it really rooted itself and guys realized, wow, we have to stop. That's -- LB: Was there a time when somebody stood up and said, "look, this is how we're getting it, we have to stop doing this"? NK: I didn't see that. I just saw where people just -- they would just come in and drink and that traffic, going in and out of the bar, that just really slowed down. And people came in and stayed and drank and then left. LB: I think you have to explain what you mean by that. NK: Oh, well (laughs). It was new to me. Hell, I never saw women do that (laughs) but guys would just hook up. I remember being behind the bar and seeing a guy nod and (laughs) and they would talk and they would leave and they would go out and whatever they did. And then they would come back in. And sometimes -- I know of one guy that came into the bar, he would do it a lot. I mean, I used to -- I know there were times I wanted to say, "would you stop already? Do you get what you're doing?" But it's not my business. And it's his life, if he chooses to live his life like that he did. Sweet guy but [whistles] he just was very frisky, you know. (laughs) Just to describe that, I don't know. (laughs) LB: At times when people would say, "I can't believe this guy never got it" because he was so promiscuous, and then other people -- like Dave Moyer was saying, people who had one partner and would become positive. And I had people say to me, "I can't believe I didn't get this." I can't either. NK: I know. Sometimes I just -- yeah. I don't understand it either. I just remember quite a few times in the eighties going to house parties and guys would be throwing the house parties. And it was men and women there but I walked into a room one time and there on TV was porn. Like male porn. And I'm like, "wow." (laughs) I was just so new to this whole type of lifestyle. But that's how it was back then. I was just watching a really interesting documentary on Netflix about gay porn and how prominent it was in the eighties. And it really was. It was crazy. Watching that brought back memories of going to some house parties and them having that on TV and I'm thinking, "by gosh, why would you have that playing in an afternoon?" (laughs) But that's just how the lifestyle was back then. LB: Yeah, I don't think you would have found that at a lesbian house party. I think that's true. NK: (laughs) Exactly. (laughs) LB: I wanted to talk about what that kind of stuff that was happening and there were people that were in. So I'm trying to -- suddenly aware that there was an issue. And I think I asked you before about people that were -- everybody stepped up. I think people really stepped up. LGBT people suddenly thought, okay, this is about us. We have to take care of each other. And people started to really take care of each other, especially when families were ostracizing their children, their sons who were HIV positive. Not very many in those days got HIV in our community I don't think. I don't know. Did you know any women who were HIV positive that you were aware of? NK: No, even though I have to tell you, I work in a doctor's office and I marvel at the amount of women that are HIV now. Just having me go into their -- read their history with the patients. I marvel at how many women are positive today. Because you didn't see that in the eighties. LB: But I guess what I was getting at -- and that's an interesting thing -- but what I was getting at was, did you know people that were taking care of other people, had a reputation that that person has taken this person into their house. Folks like that that you were friends --? NK: Yeah, I'm trying to think if I knew of anyone that did that. I had taken in Don Horton but he had lymphoma. But I'm trying to think of anyone that was positive. You know, I remember the Stonewall was so -- the older guys, like Dave Moyer, all those guys that frequented, they were really big caretakers. They were involved in that aspect of caretaking. And I know Markie Cummings. Markie helped a lot with -- she worked at the state but she really worked with Larry in helping people get support and funding just to help to live. LB: And that was one of the reasons that FACT started up was to help people finance (inaudible). Because that wasn't -- in fact, I don't know that people really understand that FACT wasn't around to raise money for research or something. It was direct aid. NK: Direct aid. Absolutely, Liz. It was directly to help them. I remember when FACT first started out I just vaguely remember people getting groceries for people that were positive, taking them to doctor's appointments, stuff like that. The simplest acts that was taken care of which was awesome because it's what was needed. When there was -- I think it was such a hush-hush thing when someone was positive because people were so afraid. Just like COVID-19. People are so afraid of being around with someone that's positive. Like me going to the dentist and getting my teeth cleaned and them donning gowns and masks. They didn't know and there was such a fear that people that wound up being positive were really shunned if they came forward. And that was just heartbreaking. LB: And there was a time -- were you aware of a time where people really thought if you just went into a gay bar, you just walked around people, or you might have been in the restroom. People thought you could get it from toilet seats, do you remember that? NK: Yeah, some of it was such nonsense with how you could catch AIDS. It was idiotic. It was a blood-borne thing. And I was -- it was transmission through blood. So I remember Johnny, this one guy that lived in Philly, we all kissed him. And it wasn't like, oh boy, now we're going to get AIDS. It was a shame and I think that was a huge stigma in the Valley. People didn't walk into a gay bar because I'm sure that hung in their minds, like ooh, you'd better watch it because you can get AIDS. And like you said, like a toilet seat. Like wow. It was the fear. It just went -- it was out of control. It had to be tough for people that were positive. LB: There was a time that people really didn't know where it came from but too much information -- one of the whole things about HIV/AIDS and the government and everything is that no one spoke about it publicly in the government for about, well, some of the guys were saying -- I think it was Larry who was saying he was really angry at the government for not saying anything about it until about nineteen eighty-eight, nineteen eighty-seven. Here it had been eight -- seven, eight years, and one thing about we didn't have social media, so we didn't have any way to share information, even though people will say disparaging things about the way things are today, we do really get information today. It's not like COVID-19 that nobody really knows where it came from, which is what happened in the flu epidemic of nineteen-eighteen. People didn't really know what to do about it. And I think at the beginning of the AIDS epidemic, at the very beginning, people like Trish knew. Health care professionals really had no idea where it was coming from or how people got it. And they wouldn't talk about it, too. Were you seeing that kind of thing? There must have been a changed time where people were saying, "okay, look, this is how you get it. You get it from having anal sex. That's why you have to wear condoms." It must have been uncommon. NK: Yeah, I think that happened in the later eighties, where that actually came into fruition when they were just stating that. Rachel Maddow interviewed the scientist who came up with the cure for HIV and he was really, really cool to listen to because he was so tenacious. He worked around the clock trying to figure out a cure because he knew that it would wipe out millions if let go. And we're so blessed that we had that scientist just be so driven to find that cure. LB: I don't know if it's a cure. NK: Well, it's not a cure, but it -- LB: It keeps people from dying, let's put it that way. NK: Right. It keeps the count down. Yeah. LB: There must be twenty people dying at the beginning of the epidemic in six months and then improving forty years (inaudible). NK: I'm just curious, my friends that are HIV today, how they'll fare moving forward. Some of them are in their sixties, early-mid sixties, late sixties, and they're still plugging along (laughs) so it's really awesome to know that that medication was able to keep the numbers down that they're not symptomatic. LB: When people were dying -- I think I was asking you this before -- were those people that you knew? Like one person I was interviewing was talking about how having to go to all those funerals, it just got to be too much. It was so hard to keep doing that. Do you have a memory of that? NK: You know, I don't. I just remember people getting -- some of the guys getting sicker, becoming more frail, and then I didn't see them anymore. And that's how they -- because I was very active in the bar scene, working pretty much fulltime at the bar. So I would see guys coming in that were positive and as they became more ill they came in less and less and less and then they were replaced by new people. The traffic was always busy because in the eighties you didn't have straight bars that accepted gay people. Not like today where you can go into pretty much any straight bar and have fun. But back in the eighties you stuck to your bar (laughs). You stuck to the gay bars where you could feel safe. But I don't remember that. I definitely remember people coming into the bar and saying this person died, or that person died, and I'm like, wow. LB: What were the other bars? There was Jeff's. Tell me about Jeff's. I went to Jeff's maybe all of one time and then it was kind of not there. I think I came to the Lehigh Valley in nineteen eighty-seven so I think I went one time. And then I met Trish and we weren't really hitting bars but it was right then when we met. But what was that bar? I don't think it was there much longer after nineteen eighty-seven or eight. Is that true? NK: No. That's funny because I actually (laughs) googled it because I was curious, like, wow, when did Jeff close his bar? Because I couldn't remember when he closed it. I know it was up for eighty-eight, eighty-nine, and then it closed. And then Diamonds opened up in ninety-two I think. So the only bars -- and Jeff's [Cityline?] Pub was frequented by guys and girls. It was a mixed bar. But Candida's and Stonewall were primarily gay men with a splattering of women here and there. LB: I think the first or second time I went to Candida's Suzanne Westenhoefer was doing a show. Do you remember that? You were probably there I'm sure. Everyone was there. Every woman in the -- that was -- I don't think I was even involved in the community yet then, I didn't really start being involved until nineteen ninety-four. It was before ninety-four I'm pretty sure. (inaudible) NK: What's that? LB: That was one of the best nights I've ever had when I was involved in that kind of stuff. (inaudible) NK: What? LB: Was she there more than once? NK: I don't know. I know that she was at Dina's bar and I know that she was at Diamonds. And Lea DeLaria. But I can't remember if she was. Now, I left Candida's in eighty-eight and I came back in nineteen-ninety. Yeah, because I think that's when I worked at Jeff's Cityline Pub. But Suzanne Westenhoefer, she's still around. I've watched some of -- LB: [We're Facebook friends?]. NK: Pardon? LB: She's my Facebook friend. NK: Is she? (laughs) LB: Yeah. NK (laughs) That's awesome. LB: She was famous then. She was famous. For some reason she was doing a gig where there were three other lesbian comedians and there were so many people in the bar. So many lesbians. There must have been two-hundred women in the bar. I think we were just standing up for an hour and a half or something. That was something. NK: (laughs) It's crazy. Dina's bar was so -- Candida's was a small bar but I just remember how much of a family -- like we were talking. It was such a family. We did such things in that bar that were just so crazy. Like just fun things that it would be wall to wall people. Like you could not move. And it was just amazing. And we accepted everybody. And that's what was so great about Candida's. And even during that time when HIV was prominent there was never anyone that was shunned. And that's the beauty of what gay people are about because we are so loving and so accepting, do you know what I mean? LB: Yeah, I do. NK: And it created a nurturing place that people knew that they could come and they would be loved. LB: Did you ever have a circumstance -- and this happened to me -- a circumstance where you were talking to somebody about HIV who was not in the know and they said negative things about it and you said, "that's not true." That kind of thing. Did that ever happen to you, where people --? NK: Not in the bar. LB: I mean anytime in your experience. NK: Oh, in anytime? Oh, yeah. (laughs) People were just -- I mean, before they came out with the -- about it being transferred through anal sex, they were -- I would hear people say, "no, you can get it from spit, you can get it from kissing, you can get it from touching." And I'm like, "no, you can't. If that was the case, we'd all be HIV." You know what I mean? Sometimes it's just common sense. But again, fear just ruled a lot of people. Especially straight people. LB: Do you remember -- I think right when Clinton was first elected, so that was into the nineties, but there was a letter sent that went out to every person in the United States that explained where you got HIV and why. And it was to remove stigma, to make people understand that you couldn't just get it. You couldn't fire somebody for being HIV positive. That was included in the Civil Rights Act. And I remember my father was a very smart man, very, very smart man. Absolutely did not know anything about -- and when he gets the letter, I said, "well, did you read the letter?" And he said, "well, yeah, how would I even know this?" And I'm like, "how would you know this? I've known it for five years already." And it wasn't just because I was -- NK: Wow. LB: -- and he was -- I mean, this was a guy who did The New York Times crossword puzzle every day and he still had no idea. He thought you could get it at the salad bar or something like that. And I think that we as people who are part of the LGBT community don't always understand how out of the know so many people were. That people should have known better and you just -- how could you not know this? And one time, it's hard to not be. Did you think there was a circumstance where people were judgmental when people got it and they'd say -- did you ever find people in the community being judgmental of each other if people --? NK: Actually, I didn't, and that, to me, I thought that was really beautiful that no one judged anybody. At least I didn't find that. Bartending at Candida's I didn't. Or even the Stonewall. It was just a happy place to go to. And you had those interjections of sadness when someone was positive or someone passed away. But for the most part, the gay bars in Lehigh Valley were just an escape for people to just meet where they knew that it was like-minded and they would be liked and cared for and talked to, where you didn't feel lonely in your life if you were. You could go to the gay bar and feel safe. LB: We're coming down to a little bit of time left because we did the first part, so since this is part two and you said some great, really interesting things in part one. Was there anything else that you thought of or you said to Barb, "hey, I forgot to talk about this, this is something that I've thought of since we talked." NK: Well, I remembered after we were done talking, I said to Barb, wow, I forgot to tell Liz about the New York Times article about the reiki because in the eighties it was all about being spiritual (laughs) and just tapping into your quiet place and reiki was a great modality. People didn't understand it but I thought it was really progressive for The New York Times to have such a big article and how impacted a lot of the gay men and giving them a moment of peace or calm by just administering reiki to them. That was really awesome. But that's I thought of after we broke the last time. But I feel so blessed to be able to be a part -- remember, I said to Dina I would never want to redo the eighties because there were some sad times but there were so many good times. And I think it was because we were all interconnected. We all felt safe. What's really funny is because I bartended in the gay bars for so many years, I mean I bartended at the Stonewall, I bartended at Candida's and Jeff's Cityline Pub, 13th Street Pub in Easton, I mean I tended Rainbow Mountain, I went down to New Hope and I bartended there sometimes. And so being in that community, it allowed me to just be myself and just have fun. And I remember (laughs) finally actually moving. I wound up managing a straight bar that was the sister to the Chicken Lounge. It was Marble's down in Phillipsburg. And it was the first time that I was out of my gay element. And I didn't realize that when you're in that, working in a gay bar and feeling so safe around men, you're going to feel safe that men aren't going to hit on you if you call them "hon" or "dear." And that was a huge shift for me because all of a sudden I found guys treating me differently. And I'm like, what is this. And I forgot. When you're around gay men you feel safe (laughs) because there's no pretense there. It's interesting. LB: I remember one time Trish and I were leaving Candida's and something happened. We had a friend, Judy Art, who lives right around the corner. She still lives there, right around the corner from Candida's. Trish had to go in and talk to her and then there was some kids that were giving us a hard time. And guys came out of the bar and they were there for us in about two seconds. And it is true. But there is one other thing that we have to remember about the eighties besides all of that stuff that made it so much fun. And it was because we were young. (laughs) NK: Yeah, that's true. (laughs) LB: We weren't in our sixties then. We were -- NK: Nope, no we weren't. (laughs) LB: The bars that are like that -- there's no bars that are like that anymore. NK: Not anymore. You know, Liz, this is a true story. I was bartending one Sunday afternoon, and it was probably eighty-seven, eighty-eight. I was bartending and these three guys came in. Older, like middle-aged guys. And they sat at the bar so I was talking to them, and they were like, "why are you friendly to us?" And I'm like, "what do you mean?" And they were like, "well, why are you nice to us?" And I'm like, "well, why wouldn't I be nice to you? Where are you from?" And they said, "well, we're from Connecticut, and in Connecticut, there's women's bars and men's bars, and women don't talk to us gay men." And I'm like, "well, that's not how it is in the Lehigh Valley." (laughs) "Why would you discriminate, we're already discriminated against through sex, like men and women. Why would there be a division?" I said, "no, that's not how we are in the Lehigh Valley. We all work together." And they were like, "wow." They were blown away by that. LB: Do you think that that's because -- I think there was a big difference between the seventies and the eighties in terms of the division between men's bars -- men's and women's bars -- because I went to a woman's bar. And I talk about this all the time and now I can't think of the name. It's in Baltimore and it was -- NK: In New York? LB: Club Mitchell. It was in Baltimore. And this was a bar that would not allow men in unless they knew the men. And there was a reason for that because in the seventies there was guys, straight guys would come in and really cause problems for the women. I mean, really scary problems for the women. NK: Wow. LB: So if they knew gay men they would let them come in. But because of the AIDS epidemic and because of those circumstances, women who are lesbians really rose to help and support the gay men community. NK: I agree. I agree totally, Liz. I'm with you on that. And it helped, too, that when Dina opened her bar she was so interconnected with so many of the older gay men, like the old guys (laughs) that it created such a great foundation. It was just natural. And when HIV rose and came to prominence we all just banded together and took care of each other. LB: Because a lot of people who were involved with this FACT events, may not have been the board of FACT, but the FACT events, were women too. They were doing (inaudible), don't you think? Dina was so involved in that. NK: Sure she was. And then you have Gail Hoover, she was a realtor forever. So there was all those ties into everybody all just getting together to do the best they could to raise as much money as they could. LB: Well, great. So anything else that you want to toss in there? NK: You know, Liz, thanks for giving me this opportunity. I don't know how much I shared, (laughs) whether was -- (inaudible) but it was a lot of fun. And just even bringing up Larry Kleppinger's name just brings back such -- my heart is just filled with joy because that man is just a hoot and a half. He was just so much fun. And he's just such a great guy. But I appreciate it, Liz. LB: One of the things that people need to understand, I think, is that in the nineteen-eighties, while we did have just the beginnings of some other groups that weren't bar-oriented, like we had GLOSS, that sports group, and Force was kind of starting up, and MCC had been going for awhile. And then we had the League -- Gay and Lesbian Task -- or Lehigh Valley Gay and Lesbian Task Force. And then just after that we started PA-GALA. And there had been Le-Hi-Ho, which had been both men and women. But really in the eighties, the only thing that was really going in the eighties was the bars. And if the bars hadn't existed, nothing else would have come out of that because that's where people started out where they started to make -- NK: Wow. That's so true. When did your Valley Press come out, when did that come out? LB: Valley Gay Press, we started the Valley Gay Press in nineteen-- so Trish and I met Steve Black in nineteen ninety-four and we began to work on political stuff with him that year. I think we started the Valley Gay Press in nineteen ninety-eight. So it wasn't until ninety-eight. We were doing voter's guide information for about three years but he had been -- we sort of knew him, we knew him from the Pride Festival. We met him at the first Pride Festival. But at the same time there was that effort to start the Gay and Lesbian Task Force that was running in the Lehigh Valley for a little while. But what happened with that was that people tended to be -- there was no focus of it. And there was no -- I think that people just ended up to be -- because this is the point. FACT had an extraordinary focus. Everybody knew what had to be done and they did it. But for general stuff, even Le-Hi-Ho became AIDS Services Center because people had to deal with AIDS. They had to deal. But also that really codified our folks together. It made us all begin to work together. And the very first thing that Trish and I did that was part of the LGBT life here, because we've been here since eighty-seven together, was that we went to an event that was put on by FACT, that if you went that flamingo ice cream place that some of the money would go to -- and the Red Ribbon Restaurant thing. They were doing that and all of those things were happening at the very beginning of FACT. They were doing lots of different events and we got involved with that. But out of the bars also grew that thing of going to the March on Washington in nineteen ninety-three because the bars organized the buses. We went on our own and people came back and said now we have to have the Pride Festival. And I think everything changed because people could see that the organizational circumstances of FACT could happen. That people could do this and that there were a lot of people who were willing to be involved. And that really came out of the bars' response to AIDS. I think that's really -- NK: Yeah, you're right. They truly were the foundation of everything getting started. At least getting the community involved where everyone met. Wow, that's so true. I just remember when you would bring in your newsletters from the Gay -- how quickly they would go. People just waited for them to come in (laughs) and then they'd scarf 'em and they were gone. (laughs) Yeah. LB: Well, I'm going to thank you again, and I'm just going to turn this off since we're okay. NK: Okay. LB: I'm going to turn this off and I'm going to turn off the recording, but thank you again, Nan. This has just been -- NK: Thanks so much, Liz. (laughs) LB: I'm going to turn off the -- no, I have to turn off -- oh, it says stop END OF AUDIO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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00:52:35
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Nan Kozul, June 21, 2020 (Part 2)
Description
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Nan Kozul talks about the early days of the AIDS epidemic in the Lehigh Valley of Pennsylvania. She focuses on working in several local LGBT bars, including Candida's; her work in healthcare; AIDS discrimination; the formation of Fighting AIDS Continuously Together (FACT); and friends who became sick. This interview took place over two days because of technical difficulties.
Identifier
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PH40_15
Subject
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AIDS (Disease)
Date
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2020-06-21
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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a8f95497a19def57542449b42697712b
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: HIV/AIDS
Description
An account of the resource
In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Liz Bradbury
Interviewee
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Nan Kozul
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_14.xml
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5.4 June 17, 2020 Nan Kozul, June 17, 2020 (Part 1) PH40_14 00:28:20 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg AIDS (Disease) Nan Kozul Liz Bradbury video/mpeg NanKozulPart1_20200617_video.mp4 1.0:|23(7)|50(8)|81(12)|102(8)|125(7)|144(14)|171(5)|192(12)|211(12)|232(8)|255(4)|272(10)|297(2)|312(10)|335(17)|352(8)|371(9)|392(12)|417(6)|436(9)|457(7)|480(7)|505(5)|530(2)|565(6)|582(12)|607(7)|636(8)|643(5) 0 https://youtu.be/TJ8kkq69Iac YouTube video 0 Interview Introduction 0 147 First time hearing about HIV/AIDS / Bartending at Candida's Bar LB: So, the first thing I’m going to say is that in the midst of this current health crisis we’re experiencing, we’re taking this opportunity to look back and reflect to capture the stories of those who lived through the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic in the nineteen eighties and nineties in the Lehigh Valley. So, let’s just start out by saying do you remember the first time you became aware of the disease? And you could say anything you want, so, you know, you don’t have to just stick to that. What do you think?
 ; 
 ; NK: Well, I was bartending -- Dina opened her bar, Candida’s in nineteen eighty. Prior to that, I was visiting the Stonewall and pouring there but once Dina opened her bar, I started bartending there. And it was when HIV first started -- it had happened in the bigger cities, so it was more prominent, like, in New York, Philly. 0 265 Fears of AIDS and COVID-19 while working in the medical field NK: I remember I had, just as the epidemic started, I had gone to a new dentist in Allentown. And so, I went to get my teeth cleaned and I’m sitting in the chair and the dentist and the hygienist, they were really animated, they were fun. I was talking to them and they were, like, “So, where do you work?” And I’m, like, “I work for a drug dealer but I also work at a bar.” And they were, like, “Oh, where do you work?” And I said, “Candida’s.” And they left the room and I was sitting there (laughs) and then they came back in. And when they came back in, they were donned with gowns, gloves, and a facemask. 0 435 Promiscuity in the early 1980s / Noticing friends losing weight and knowing they had AIDS LB: What kind of other kinds of circumstances in terms of relating to that kind of fear and concern -- did people feel that around the bar, too? I mean, were people sharing stories like that?
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 ; NK: It was very -- they didn’t talk about it. You know, the promiscuity in the early eighties was really high and especially at Candida’s because you had the cemetery across the street, so it was easy access for private liaisons. (laughter) And it was interesting because it started to shift, slowly, but it started to shift. And it wasn’t until probably later, in the later eighties, that I actually saw friends becoming sick and admitting that they were positive. Yeah, it was a tough time. 0 880 Parents disowning their children because they were gay LB: And during the beginning of the epidemic, I think some people were really not supported by their families, although I’ve also heard that a lot of families in the Lehigh Valley were pretty supportive. What’s your take on that?
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 ; NK: Well, you know what, Liz? To be honest with you, that was -- I bartended every -- well, bartended quite a few nights. But Sunday afternoons was one of my days that I bartended. I can’t tell you the amount of young guys that would come in and just cry to me because their parents disowned them. 0 980 Bar mascots being stolen as a prank / Beginning of FACT LB: Yeah. Well, tell me about the start of FACT there and how that happened.
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 ; NK: Well, (laughs) it started as just a crazy -- Dina had a parrot that was her mascot and the Stonewall stole the parrot. And then she --
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 ; LB: It wasn’t a real parrot.
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 ; NK: No, it wasn’t a real parrot, even though she had a real parrot. (laughter) No, it was just her mascot. 0 1105 Planting memorial trees in Lehigh Parkway / Discussion of best friend who is HIV positive LB: You remember -- I know that there were a lot of funerals and I don’t know the history of this exactly but I know they were planting a lot of trees. You remember that?
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 ; NK: You know, I remember that vaguely, that they were planting trees. I don’t remember actually going to any funerals, only because it’s a painful time.
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 ; LB: Yes. 0 1258 Working as a medical assistant / Discrimination in nursing school LB: Now, are you a nurse (inaudible) nurse? 
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 ; NK: Actually, I’m a medical assistant. I was two semesters away from being an RN back in eighty-nine, ninety, nineteen-ninety, and I was forced out of nursing school because I was gay. 
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 ; LB: What happened?
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 ; NK: St. Luke’s was not known (laughs) for their inclusivity of gay people, especially back then. And I had gone to nursing school. I was elected class president. I was going to graduate in nineteen-ninety. And two semesters before I was to graduate, I start flunking and I went to the instructors and I said, “Why -- I don’t understand why I’m flunking my tests,” because we had study groups. 0 1503 Medications for HIV/AIDS LB: So, back to the stuff that was happening, then. What kind of stuff, externally, was happening with regard to that? Like, were you aware of things that were happening politically, that -- you know, we have those kinds of political issues now that have to do with COVID-19. There were political issues that were happening then. Do you remember how that had an impact on you?
 ; 
 ; NK: You know, I don’t remember the political aspect. I remember the drugs that were coming out. And it was really -- I found it awesome that scientists and labs were creating different kind of, like, medications that went from having these guys having to take gobs of pills to one pill or, you know, or less pills and how it curbed the side effects of what they were experiencing. (electronic tone) Now, it’s saying that I am running low on juice. 0 MovingImage Nan Kozul talks about the early days of the AIDS epidemic in the Lehigh Valley of Pennsylvania. She focuses on working in several local LGBT bars, including Candida's ; her work in healthcare ; AIDS discrimination ; the formation of Fighting AIDS Continuously Together (FACT) ; and friends who became sick. This interview took place over two days because of technical difficulties. NAN KOZUL - PART 1 LIZ BRADBURY: -- computer, yes. Now, I have to read you these things. So, with this project, the Bradbury Sullivan LGBT Community Center at Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College, will collaborate on 40 years of public health experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. So, this is the HIV/AIDS part. My name's Liz Bradbury. I'm here with Nan Kozul to talk to her about her experiences in the Lehigh Valley community during this time of the COVID-19 pandemic as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive. And this project had funding from Lehigh Valley -- I'm not supposed to say that, so I'm going to cross that off. Okay. Has had funding to do this data collection. We're meeting on Zoom and this is, the date of this is June seventeenth, twenty-twenty. And we're talking specifically about HIV/AIDS epidemic in the early part of the epidemic. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with me today and to make this Zoom video. Can you please state your full name and spell it for me? NAN KOZUL: Nan, N-A-N, Kozul, K-O-Z-U-L. LB: Okay, and will you please share your birth date? NK: May fifteenth, nineteen fifty-eight. LB: Okay, and now this is the consent part, do you consent to this interview today? NK: I do. (laughs) LB: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable formats? NK: I do. LB: Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats including films, articles, websites, presentations, and other formats? NK: I do. LB: And do you understand that you will have thirty days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview and identify any parts you'd like to delete or withdraw or change from the project? NK: I do. LB: All right, okay. So, this has got pretty short little questions here in terms of asking you things. So, the first thing I'm going to say is that in the midst of this current health crisis we're experiencing, we're taking this opportunity to look back and reflect to capture the stories of those who lived through the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic in the nineteen eighties and nineties in the Lehigh Valley. So, let's just start out by saying do you remember the first time you became aware of the disease? And you could say anything you want, so, you know, you don't have to just stick to that. What do you think? NK: Well, I was bartending -- Dina opened her bar, Candida's in nineteen eighty. Prior to that, I was visiting the Stonewall and pouring there but once Dina opened her bar, I started bartending there. And it was when HIV first started -- it had happened in the bigger cities, so it was more prominent, like, in New York, Philly. It didn't feel like it hit so close to home that early. But eventually, it started to. And so, it was a hard time because being gay at that time and then having HIV on top of it being there, it was difficult. LB: Yeah. What were some of the things that kind of made you aware that this was happening? Like, were you hearing outside information about it and then also stuff that was happening around the community? NK: I heard more, like, watching the news. I saw a lot of news features. And then, of course, we were talking about it in the bar. And there was primarily a male clientele that came into Candida's in the beginning. I mean, it was a busy bar all the time but it was a lot of guys and -- but it was interesting because what happened was the -- I remember I had, just as the epidemic started, I had gone to a new dentist in Allentown. And so, I went to get my teeth cleaned and I'm sitting in the chair and the dentist and the hygienist, they were really animated, they were fun. I was talking to them and they were, like, "So, where do you work?" And I'm, like, "I work for a drug dealer but I also work at a bar." And they were, like, "Oh, where do you work?" And I said, "Candida's." And they left the room and I was sitting there (laughs) and then they came back in. And when they came back in, they were donned with gowns, gloves, and a facemask. LB: Wow. NK: And the whole mood changed from, you know, being light and fun to very serious. They cleaned my teeth, I paid them, and left. And I sat in the car and I was just so blown away with how I was treated. And it hurt me and it just caught me so off guard. I wasn't expecting that. LB: When was that, in the epidemic? NK: Right in the beginning. because working in the medical field right now, I see the fear of COVID-19 and so, it's an interesting dynamic to see, to experience both. Because back -- we didn't really know a whole lot about HIV other than that it was a blood -- you know, like it was transmitted through blood. And then, with this COVID-19, it was transmitted through air. And, you know, people just generally are scared. And so, it's been an interesting few months, just going through this and dealing with patients that are COVID positive and how we have to protect ourselves. LB: Yeah. NK: And I think about that patient sitting in the chair, thinking, wow, I was that person but I didn't have HIV. I was just a gay person and I was labeled right away and feared right away just because of the -- LB: And do you think that was because at that time, people really had no idea where it was coming from? Or they were just overly concerned? NK: I think they weren't sure how it was transmitted, so they wanted to take all precautions. But I just thought the way they did it was so, so blatant, you know? LB: Yeah. NK: I said that I worked at Candida's and they just went -- and then they just left the room. And then, I was like, wow, and it just was a weird time. LB: What kind of other kinds of circumstances in terms of relating to that kind of fear and concern -- did people feel that around the bar, too? I mean, were people sharing stories like that? NK: It was very -- they didn't talk about it. You know, the promiscuity in the early eighties was really high and especially at Candida's because you had the cemetery across the street, so it was easy access for private liaisons. (laughter) And it was interesting because it started to shift, slowly, but it started to shift. And it wasn't until probably later, in the later eighties, that I actually saw friends becoming sick and admitting that they were positive. Yeah, it was a tough time. LB: Yeah. Could you tell that they were sick? Is that what they were saying? Or they were just sort of confiding in you that that was -- NK: No, you could see they started to lose weight. Probably one of the most heart-wrenching things that happened to me one time was I was actually bartending at Jeff's City Line Pub (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) yeah, it was probably -- I would say it was definitely probably eighty-eight, maybe, when I was bartending there. And a friend of mine, Joe, was the bouncer there and he was just the sweetest man. And he always helped, at the end of the night, to help clean up. And we used to throw bottles in big plastic bags, heavy contractor bags, and then throw them in the dumpster. And he came in one night after a busy weekend night and his hand was bleeding. And it was a pretty deep cut. And so, I applied pressure to it with my hand, you know, not even thinking, just because it was bleeding so bad. And then, I got a rag and I wrapped it around his hand. And a few weeks later, he came in to work and he just -- he looked really sad and he's, like, "Nan, I need to talk to you." And I said, "What's wrong?" And he said, "Nan, I had a Western blot and I'm positive." And he goes, "You should get tested." And it was numbing because I just remember compressing the cut and not having any protection. But the way he declined was horrible and he wound up getting Karposi. LB: Yeah. NK: And he was in St. Luke's and he had eventually gone blind and that was just so, so sad, just to see that happen because he was such a gentle soul. He was a really nice guy. LB: Did you get tested? NK: No. No, and I was going to but I knew that I hadn't broken skin but -- and part of that, probably, too was fear. I thought, well, if I get it, I get it. But, yeah, it was a -- interesting time when it first came out. It was -- and we just lost a lot of people. And some people that got -- that wound up being positive, you didn't expect, you know? You just [thought it?] -- because you just didn't expect it. And it was all ages. It wasn't just the young guys. And once the cocktail came out, it really helped. It turned the corner for a lot of guys that were positive. What's amazing, Liz, is working in the doctor's office today, I am amazed how many people are actually HIV. LB: Yeah. NK: I am shocked. And equal gender, you know? It's, yeah. LB: When it was happening back during the time of the epidemic, when you were saying that it was all different kinds of folks that were coming in and it was clear that they were positive -- and were they sick? I mean, at that time, particularly at the early time, it was really a death sentence. Would everybody sort of feel that? NK: Pardon? LB: Did people feel that way? I mean, you know -- NK: Just from what I remember, they kind of tried to just forge ahead and not think about it. Some dealt with it by drinking heavier (laughs) and just sinking into alcohol more. Others pulled away from the bar and going out. LB: Yeah. NK: And some just lived their life. Rob St. Mary, he was just -- I don't know if you remember him. He lived his life and he danced until the day he wasn't here anymore. LB: Well, I interviewed Mitch Hemphill earlier today and he mentioned Rob St. Mary, too. I didn't know him. So, what was he like? NK: Rob was -- (laughs) he was crazy. He was fun and I just remember him just loving to be in drag but just silly drag. But dancing at the Stonewall, he was always dancing. He's just really outgoing and friendly. And as the disease progressed with him, it was hard to see because they -- often, the guys that would or the people that got sick, they would just get really drawn, their faces, you could just -- they had this pallor about them that was -- you knew. And so, you just didn't say anything. You just respected that space. LB: Yeah. I think after the Pulse tragedy, the Pulse massacre, a lot of people were talking about how, for a lot of us, bars were our homes and it certainly was for everybody our age because there wasn't anything else. NK: Right. LB: And during the beginning of the epidemic, I think some people were really not supported by their families, although I've also heard that a lot of families in the Lehigh Valley were pretty supportive. What's your take on that? NK: Well, you know what, Liz? To be honest with you, that was -- I bartended every -- well, bartended quite a few nights. But Sunday afternoons was one of my days that I bartended. I can't tell you the amount of young guys that would come in and just cry to me because their parents disowned them. It was heartbreaking, you know? At a time where you had HIV and you were gay, it was such a one-two punch for people that got sick. It was just so sad. And, you know, it was a family. I wasn't out to my parents when I was that age and I remember talking to a therapist and she said, "Nan, your family, you're going to create a family at Candida's." And that's what I did. And they were family. It was so tight-knit. And when, like, in the mid eighties, there were -- we just wanted to do something and we -- and that's how FACT got started. And that was amazing. And it's amazing where that has come today. It's so awesome that it helps so many people. LB: Yeah. Well, tell me about the start of FACT there and how that happened. NK: Well, (laughs) it started as just a crazy -- Dina had a parrot that was her mascot and the Stonewall stole the parrot. And then she -- LB: It wasn't a real parrot. NK: No, it wasn't a real parrot, even though she had a real parrot. (laughter) No, it was just her mascot. And so, they stole the parrot and then we tried to steal the moose head from the Stonewall. (laughter) And it was really massive. But we wound up having these bar wars that were hysterical. And that camaraderie between Candida's and the Stonewall just created such a bond and that's where that -- it just created this force behind wanting to help people that were infected. And it just, you know, all the right people were in the right places. And they had the right connections to get everything financially solvent. And then, the games started at Rainbow Mountain. LB: Right. NK: And it was just amazing, you know? And every year, there just seemed to be more and more. And then, you had the Snow Ball. And it was FACT Bingo. It was crazy stuff but it all worked and all for a great cause. LB: And did you find people were coming in saying that they needed that kind of help? NK: There were some people that did, yeah. Some guys did. LB: Yeah. NK: But it's so wonderful for today to see how it made such a difference in the lives of the Lehigh Valley. LB: You remember -- I know that there were a lot of funerals and I don't know the history of this exactly but I know they were planting a lot of trees. You remember that? NK: You know, I remember that vaguely, that they were planting trees. I don't remember actually going to any funerals, only because it's a painful time. LB: Yes. NK: And my best friend, Pete, at the time, when he was HIV, I was devastated because he was my best bud. And at one point in time, he got really sick. He was at Sacred Heart Hospital and I went to go visit him and I walked right past the room he was in because I didn't know it was him. He always had salt and pepper hair and was always clean shaven or he had a small beard. But his beard had grown out and it was scraggly and he was sitting in a hospital chair. And I didn't even know it was him. It looked like an old man. And I went into the room and I asked him to get back into bed and he got back into bed and I had a healing crystal. That was my crystal and I put it on his heart. And I know when I left there, it was raining that day and I got to my car and I just sobbed. But he's still here and he's [super?]. (laughs) Yeah. LB: So, was it that he -- there were drugs or he got better enough to be able to hold out for the drugs? NK: He did. He did get better and he got on the right cocktail. I used to marvel at, you know, because he literally would take a handful of medication, in the morning and in the afternoon, I think, in the evening. I mean, handful. But he just, it's just amazing, even today, you know? He's doing great. And he came back for his horse. He loves his horse. And I'm glad that he survived that and, yeah, so -- but it's amazing. LB: Now, are you a nurse (inaudible) nurse? NK: Actually, I'm a medical assistant. I was two semesters away from being an RN back in eighty-nine, ninety, nineteen-ninety, and I was forced out of nursing school because I was gay. LB: What happened? NK: St. Luke's was not known (laughs) for their inclusivity of gay people, especially back then. And I had gone to nursing school. I was elected class president. I was going to graduate in nineteen-ninety. And two semesters before I was to graduate, I start flunking and I went to the instructors and I said, "Why -- I don't understand why I'm flunking my tests," because we had study groups. And I said, "Can I see the master key?" And they were, like, "No, we don't do that." And I'm, like, "Okay." And so, I was basically forced out of school. And there was an instructor there that actually had a crush on a friend of mine who was male and -- because I went back to school when I was twenty-nine. I was older. And so, I had become friends with this nursing instructor. Unbeknownst to me, she thought she could change my friend. So, we had gone out to dinner and at the time, I had just broken up with a partner that I was with. And I told her. LB: Oh. NK: And thinking that it was okay. (laughs) And it wasn't. And a few weeks later, she threatened me. She called me into her office and threatened to flunk me and that -- she just said a lot of things and I just left the office so defeated. But I wound up, unfortunately, having to leave the school because I didn't meet the grades. I got a job at Lehigh Valley, in ICU. They were great. They actually let me be involved with things in intensive care and were, like, "Nan, get your RN." And so, I was going to go to community college, NCACC, but I didn't want to start from the beginning. So, I wrote St. Luke's a letter to ask for transcripts of my grades to be released and NCACC said that St. Luke's had said they never heard of me. LB: Oh, my God. NK: And, like, at the time my parents were really upset. They thought I just quit school. And I just couldn't come out to them. At the time, I was afraid. I just felt so beaten [on?]. And it was really weird. Back in 2002, I had gone to massage school and I became a massage therapist. And one of the girls there at the school actually worked for St. Luke's and had gone through St. Luke's School of Nursing. And she said to me, she said -- I told her about what happened to me and she goes, "Oh, yeah." She said, "You know, Nan," because she was bisexual, said, "They threatened me." And I'm, like, "You're kidding!" And she's, "No." She goes, "Matter of fact, I said go ahead and try. I'll get my lawyer on you." And she said, "And they backed off." LB: [Oh?]! NK: And I'm, like, "[No?], I wish I had that kind of chutzpah," you know? (laughter) But so that's why -- not a nurse today. But I -- LB: Well, [you're a?] professional. NK: Yeah. LB: I think you, at the beginning, you said you were a drug dealer and I think that might be misinterpreted. NK: Oh, a drug -- oh, yeah. I worked for a drug wholesaler. LB: Okay. (laughs) NK: Yeah, I worked -- (laughter) it was a wholesale drug company that was based out of Harrisburg and we supplied all the pharmacies. So, oh my gosh, yeah, I wasn't a drug dealer. (laughter) Thanks for catching that, Liz! (laughs) LB: So, back to the stuff that was happening, then. What kind of stuff, externally, was happening with regard to that? Like, were you aware of things that were happening politically, that -- you know, we have those kinds of political issues now that have to do with COVID-19. There were political issues that were happening then. Do you remember how that had an impact on you? NK: You know, I don't remember the political aspect. I remember the drugs that were coming out. And it was really -- I found it awesome that scientists and labs were creating different kind of, like, medications that went from having these guys having to take gobs of pills to one pill or, you know, or less pills and how it curbed the side effects of what they were experiencing. (electronic tone) Now, it's saying that I am running low on juice. LB: Uh-oh. NK: Uh-oh. (laughter) I have it plugged in. I don't know why -- hmm. Plugged in. Uh-oh. LB: Is it plugged in? NK: Yeah, it is plugged in. I don't know why it said it's low on juice. Okay. LB: Tell people about, I mean, you know, twenty years from now -- it's bad enough now because people don't know what it was like at the beginning. A lot of young people certainly know and when we talk about young people, we don't talk -- but they're not that young. (laughter) But they don't know what it was like in terms of side effects and stuff like that. Talk about some of that thing that would happen in regard to the side effects from the drugs and also the symptoms of the disease that show -- you already mentioned some of those. NK: Yeah. One of the things that I remember, Pete had a hard time eating because it destroyed your appetite, the pills. And because he would get high. And I'm, like, "Why are you getting high?" He goes, "because this is the only thing that lets me eat." LB: Right. NK: And so, that was a big thing. That was a big side effect. And I think, too, I think that's probably why people that were positive wound up dropping so much weight, because that was a huge side effect. And skin issues. LB: Yeah. NK: You know? But mainly, it was just the weight loss, what was profound. LB: Yeah. NK: Yeah. LB: And so, when FACT was doing stuff and began to do stuff, when did sort of shift from this (electronic tone) idea of, like -- uh-oh. Are you there? Oh, dear. Oh. END OF AUDIO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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00:28:20
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Nan Kozul, June 17, 2020 (Part 1)
Description
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Nan Kozul talks about the early days of the AIDS epidemic in the Lehigh Valley of Pennsylvania. She focuses on working in several local LGBT bars, including Candida's; her work in healthcare; AIDS discrimination; the formation of Fighting AIDS Continuously Together (FACT); and friends who became sick. This interview took place over two days because of technical difficulties.
Identifier
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PH40_14
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AIDS (Disease)
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2020-06-17
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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https://lgbt.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/621d3cca833662553752535278cb5854.png
001804ed54fce6ab489e330351179e10
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
An account of the resource
In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Kristen Leipert
Interviewee
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Gabby Hochfeld
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_03.xml
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5.4 July 29, 2020 Gabby Hochfeld, July 29, 2020 PH40_03 00:48:24 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Gabby Hochfeld Kristen Leipert video/mpeg HochfeldGabby_20200729_video.mp4 1.0:|19(8)|48(14)|73(12)|92(17)|111(7)|136(14)|159(15)|186(6)|205(15)|228(7)|251(6)|274(4)|293(11)|314(10)|335(13)|356(14)|381(10)|404(12)|429(11)|448(7)|473(14)|494(7)|517(3)|532(20)|557(13)|582(5)|603(6)|624(12)|645(5)|672(4)|689(10)|712(13)|735(9)|756(2)|779(5)|798(14)|817(2)|836(13)|857(3)|878(9)|903(12)|924(6)|947(7)|970(15)|995(9)|1018(7)|1039(12)|1082(7)|1099(5) 0 https://youtu.be/agof1WtrGxk YouTube video 0 Interview Introduction KRISTEN LEIPERT: My name is Kristen Leipert, and I am here with Gabby Hochfield to talk about her experience in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of the COVID-19 pandemic, as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive. Our project has funding from the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, and we are meeting on Zoom on July 29th, 2020. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start, can you please state your full name and spell it for me?
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 ; GABBY HOCHFELD: Like legal first name and everything? Okay. Gabrielle Sarah Hochfield. G-A-B-R-I-E-L-L-E. Sarah, S-A-R-A-H. Hochfield, H-O-C-H-F-E-L-D. (laughs)
 ; 0 156 TRIGGER WARNING: Pandemic affecting work life, family life, and mental health GH: Okay. I’ll start with work, because I think that the pandemic quarantine situation started out affecting work, which in turn affected my family life. So, we moved at Bradbury-Sullivan to remote work, and before I lived an hour away from where I worked. I lived in the Poconos, in Monroe County. And I lived with my mom and my sister and my brother. And I barely saw them because I was constantly traveling for work. My job forced me to go to all of southeastern PA, minus Philly. So I’d very often have to drive to like Westchester. 0 470 Working as Bradbury-Sullivan Center's Southeastern Pennsylvania Health Outreach Coordinator during the pandemic GH: So I wasn’t really scared to lose my job, but I was like, how is this going to work? But mainly just telling gay people, stop smoking, stop vaping, please, thank you. Because it hurts us all. 
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 ; KL: Yeah. And have you been doing any of that work over Zoom? I mean, outreach with people.
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 ; GH: Yeah. So, stuff that I've been doing that was able to stay the same pretty much was worksite policy implementation. 0 634 Living with roommates/More on mental health GH: Yeah. I do have two roommates who are also Lehigh students. I’m not a Lehigh student, but they’re Lehigh students that are international students that were able to stay. I don’t really talk to them too much. We had a couple board game nights, but it kind of just was like, eh, we don’t really have a lot in common, okay. 
 ; 0 765 Realizations caused by the pandemic GH: There’s definitely some upsides. Before I was travelling way, way too much. I felt like I was a rocket ship and I didn’t have time to think about anything I was doing. I was just doing, doing, doing. And I feel like now I can kind of take a step back and sort of reflect on, again, even though my family situation was bad, I realized that I was not being respected and it made me realize what standard I set for the people in my life and I don’t. 0 1136 Interviewing in solidarity with domestic abuse survivors/Shaving head during pandemic GH: [...] But I just feel like, I hope that people that are going through domestic abuse situations come forward about this stuff. Because I feel like a lot of people feel very stuck, especially kids, during this time. I feel so bad for little kiddies that just are in a really, really abusive household situation. 0 1297 Identifying as queer/Thoughts on dating during the pandemic GH: [...] But I don’t know ; it’s also kind of awkward because I had a successful date with somebody that I knew this past weekend, and we hugged, but I was like, I guess I need to be serious or at least make sure that I want to be involved with this person because now we might be spreading germs, so that’s kind of similar to how -- not at all, well, I don’t know. It’s similar to HIV in that way. 0 1580 Thoughts on school openings GH: Yeah, it’s just not well thought out. What happens if one of the students gets COVID? What happens if the teacher gets COVID? I feel like they’re just like, "Well, we have to do this because if we don’t, then we lose money or we lose this.” And also obviously school is really important to continue and social -- homeschooled kids are very obvious to the -- you know who those are, versus a public school kid or whatever. But I mean, it’ll be fine. If we’re all homeschooled, then that’s the new norm. 0 1765 Thoughts on pandemic quarantine GH: It’s just so strange that we couldn’t -- if the answer truly was stay put for two weeks, I guess we can’t do that because there’s people that literally think this is a hoax, but I don’t know. Martial law is not -- if I was the president or dictator at this point, I would be like, “Okay, martial law. Two weeks. Get your groceries. You have a week to get your groceries and stuff, and then do not leave your property.”
 ; 0 1869 Randonauting during the pandemic GH: [...] But I need to be more active. I’ve been doing this thing called Randonauting, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of it.
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 ; KL: No, I don’t know what that is.
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 ; GH: It’s an app where they randomly generate a point on a map, given a parameter, and you’re supposed to “manifest” -- I don’t really like the idea of manifesting because I think it’s a little bit a crock of bullshit, because just because you think good things doesn’t mean good things will happen to you. 0 2040 Spending pandemic quarantine in a safe/creative way GH: I feel like a lot of people -- not me, because I don’t like alcohol that much -- but I feel like a lot of people are concerning me with their alcohol consumption. Like, I’ll call them and they’ll be like, “Oh yeah, I’m just drinking.” And like, again? 0 2189 Thoughts on Black Lives Matter/Thoughts on activism GH: [...] I’ve been very passionate about showing up and helping as much as I can. Sometimes it just conflicts with my schedule, but I recently went to the -- I don’t know if you heard about Palmerton’s protest a couple weeks ago. It’s a town over from where I used to live, and my good friends were the organizers. And it went very poorly. 
 ; 0 2713 Conclusion GH: Yup. Thank you for doing this. It’s really cool. I’m excited to see what the product of it is, and yeah. I think this is going to be -- it’s cool to be part of a history thing.
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 ; KL: Yeah, I mean thank you so much for your time. 
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 ; GH: Absolutely.
 ; 0 MovingImage Gabby Hochfeld discusses her life experiences during the COVID-19 pandemic including the ways in which it has effected her mental health, work life, and social interactions. Gabby Hochfeld2020-07-29 KRISTEN LEIPERT: Okay, we are now recording. Uh-oh, I'm going to do Liz's trick of also recording audio on my phone if I can find it. Nope, not that. Not this. And okay, great. Okay. My name is Kristen Leipert, and I am here with Gabby Hochfield to talk about her experience in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of the COVID-19 pandemic, as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive. Our project has funding from the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, and we are meeting on Zoom on July 29th, 2020. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start, can you please state your full name and spell it for me? GABBY HOCHFELD: Like legal first name and everything? Okay. Gabrielle Sarah Hochfield. G-A-B-R-I-E-L-L-E. Sarah, S-A-R-A-H. Hochfield, H-O-C-H-F-E-L-D. (laughs) KL: Thank you. Will you please share your birthdate? GH: My birthday? KL: Mm-hmm, birthdate. GH: June 25th, 1997. KL: Oh, happy a little bit after your birthday. Okay, so this is the consent portion. So you just need to answer these questions. Do you consent to this interview today? GH: I do, yes. KL: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable format? GH: Yes. KL: Do you consent to the LGBT archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats including films, articles, websites, presentations, and other formats? GH: Yes. KL: Do you understand that you will have thirty days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview, identify any parts you would like to delete, and or withdraw our interview from the project? GH: Yes. KL: Okay. This project has been approved by Muhlenberg College's institutional review board, and if you have any questions I can give you the email address of the person you can contact to ask questions to. So, how has the COVID-19 pandemic affected your life? And this could be your work life, personal life, social life, all the things. Anything. Go for it. GH: Okay. I'll start with work, because I think that the pandemic quarantine situation started out affecting work, which in turn affected my family life. So, we moved at Bradbury-Sullivan to remote work, and before I lived an hour away from where I worked. I lived in the Poconos, in Monroe County. And I lived with my mom and my sister and my brother. And I barely saw them because I was constantly traveling for work. My job forced me to go to all of southeastern PA, minus Philly. So I'd very often have to drive to like Westchester. Like we'd go to work, then go to Westchester, then come back to work, and then go home. So lots of driving, and when the quarantine happened, there was no out-of-county travelling supposed to be happening, so I had to stay in Monroe County. So I was constantly around my family because of this. And my little brother likes to game, and internet was really bad so I was blamed for a lot of it because I had a lot of Zoom meetings instead of in-person meetings, and it created a lot of tension. And something that I think a lot of people talk about is how this quarantine, this pandemic really exposes all the problems that already exist just even more. And my father is an actual diagnosable narcissist, and my counselor likes to say that having a relationship with a narcissist is a relationship of inevitable harm. And when you have a family dynamic underneath a narcissist, there's trauma bondage relationships. There's like all this psychological craziness, and it just came out. And I'm the only one in my family that's currently going to counselling. I've been going for like four years. I've had a couple different counselors, because moving and stuff like that. But this was the first time I've been counselled and realized there's a lot of stuff that I needed to figure out. And this quarantine really kind of pushed it to the forefront and kind of felt like I was scapegoated a bit. And I had to end up living with a friend for a little bit, which was really stressful because that took a while. Because I was afraid to go out of the house, really. So for three months I felt like my mental health was so bad. I don't know how, whatever, as long as my name is anonymous, I guess, but I did have suicidal thoughts during quarantine, and that's when I realized I really needed to leave my situation. And I was trying to do my part in the community by staying put and keeping to myself, but I couldn't. So I had to leave. And then I found an apartment where I currently am at, and it's a sublease from a Lehigh student, which wouldn't exist unless all the international students didn't have to go back home. So the person I'm subleasing from is from Vietnam, and they had to go back and they can't come back until January. So very fortunate situation for me, but not so much for them. So yeah, it affected my life in every way possible. Some ways it's a blessing in disguise, because it made me realize that a lot of my insecurities come from how I'm treated, not how I perceive myself. We don't come out of the womb and immediately start hating ourselves. I don't think that makes any sense, so yeah I just think that everyone's mental health seems like through the roof bad right now. And it just made mine all the much more worse, but also forced me to make me more serious about it in general. And work has been good, though. I mean, very supported through work, but that's not something I can say for everybody. Most of my close friends, they've been laid off more than once because they're laid off initially then they were back, and then they just got laid off again, or they don't have good COVID policies. One of my friends works for the zoo, and she feels like it's not really safe to work there because of the people that come in and they don't really wear masks and stuff. So I'm very, very thankful for where I work, and them taking this seriously. And even making a committee to figure out what the best way to reopen is. So yeah, I don't know if that was too much, but yeah. KL: No, that's great. So, when you talk about work, I know where you work, but would you like to say what you do there? GH: Yeah. So my job title's another mouthful. My name's a mouthful and this is a mouthful. But I'm the Southeastern Pennsylvania Health Outreach Coordinator, which most of my job has to do with tobacco prevention and education, because it's the number one health disparity in the LGBT community, fun fact. And we had to take the name tobacco out of my job title because a lot of people don't like that word, for some reason, especially schools. So it's easier for me to get into schools and educate LGBT clubs, like GSAs and stuff like that. I also used to do bar outreach before the quarantine. I would go and bring goodie bags of tobacco prevention information and I'd hand them out to people at bars. That's not happening anymore. Pretty much my whole position had to change. I am grant funded by basically, inadvertently or indirectly, the Department of Health. So I wasn't really scared to lose my job, but I was like, how is this going to work? But mainly just telling gay people, stop smoking, stop vaping, please, thank you. Because it hurts us all. KL: Yeah. And have you been doing any of that work over Zoom? I mean, outreach with people. GH: Yeah. So, stuff that I've been doing that was able to stay the same pretty much was worksite policy implementation. We're trying to get a bunch of LGBT-run, owned, or allied businesses to update or have a new tobacco policy. A lot of them are smoke-free policies, which don't include things that are still bad for their employees. Or they might not even include vaping, which is more common for younger people, I guess, nowadays. So, that was able to stay. Because it could just be done over email or phone call, and then we promote them on our social media. I used to do -- right now it's the summer, so I'm not working at schools really. But we would do after school club stuff over Zoom. Yeah, it's been kind of slow, honestly, but still just doing what I can. Most of it is social media and Zoom-based though. KL: Good. So, right now you are living in Bethlehem? I'm only assuming Bethlehem. GH: Yeah, I live in Bethlehem. I'm on south side, walking distance to Tally Ho's. (laughs) KL: Are you alone right now? GH: Yeah. I do have two roommates who are also Lehigh students. I'm not a Lehigh student, but they're Lehigh students that are international students that were able to stay. I don't really talk to them too much. We had a couple board game nights, but it kind of just was like, eh, we don't really have a lot in common, okay. KL: Well, at least you get some people time. I guess. I don't know. GH: It feels like I'm alone, which sucks. But I am like that friend that will give a phone call to my friends when I'm bored so I still keep in touch and I try not to feel alone even though it is lonely. But yeah. Again, mental health terrible for everybody. So at least if I'm feeling alone, I'm feeling alone in solidarity with everybody. KL: Oh my God. So you've mentioned mental health. So you're making sure you're doing well. GH: I'm okay now. I [shouldn't?] have talked about that. I'm okay. Just, when I was at my worst, that was like a wakeup call to me because I was like, I've never let that way and that's not okay. And if I was somebody else -- I've had a friend from high school who constantly was like, not good, and it was a worry all the time about whether they were going to be alive or not. So I was trying to think of myself as my best friend. What would I do if I heard this from my friend? And I was like, I've got to make sure I'm okay. So I'm good. I wasn't good, but now I am. KL: That's great. So has there been anything that's like a positive outcome of this, or things that keep you occupied, how you're making yourself -- I was going to say happy. Sane? (laughs) Satisfied? I don't know. At a calm level. GH: There's definitely some upsides. Before I was travelling way, way too much. I felt like I was a rocket ship and I didn't have time to think about anything I was doing. I was just doing, doing, doing. And I feel like now I can kind of take a step back and sort of reflect on, again, even though my family situation was bad, I realized that I was not being respected and it made me realize what standard I set for the people in my life and I don't. So in that way it was good. I also learned about meditating and stuff, and I think that's really important. I'm into astrology and I read cards, and I like crystals, so I'm still like, COVID's a real thing. Science is real. And my stuff is probably BS, but it's really fun because it's cathartic. And I also feel like I'm able to read for joy more. I feel like I'm not wasting a lot of gas anymore. I think that having a more calm life is really, really good for me. And I think for a lot of people, who have been just -- I don't know, we all live under capitalism, and capitalism makes us feel like we need to constantly be doing and constantly be working. And everyone asks, "What's your dream job?" Why is that the thing that we need to dream about? Can't we dream about the relationships we have and not necessarily romance, but just what is actually important at the end of the day is not what job we have. Unless you make it important and for me it is important. But it's not because I'm making money. It's not because of any of those reasons. I think that we're kind of learning how the world works in a way that treats humans better. But again, this isn't something that's sustainable for everyone. If you were working three jobs before, and you were like a waitress and you have kids and your rent is too much, that's not something that really works for everybody. So I'm definitely in a place of privilege where I can say, "Yeah, I'm chilling," because of this, but other people are like, it's every day. Just terrible stuff, and I was very, very privileged to be able to walk away from a bad situation. Some people are stuck in domestic abuse situations, and that's definitely not a positive. But for me it was absolutely a positive, just didn't realize it when it was happening. But yeah. And it also kind of, I still work forty hours a week, but I don't work on the weekends anymore. And I kind of have flexibility. We have core hours during our workdays and I can do my personal flex hours, if I want, after dinner. Or really early, so I can have an early day. And that's really helpful for moms and parents in general who, that works really well for after the kid's asleep, they can do their work or whatever. So yeah, I think that there's definitely a lot of good stuff with this. KL: Yeah, and not that this is about me, but there is something nice about -- I have two children -- so it's been nice to be like, "All right, it's ten o'clock in the morning, let's go for a walk." You know? And then we can all reset our morning and then I can get back and I can be like, "Okay, go play video games so I can work for the rest of the day." And not feel too guilty. (laughs) That they're just screen time all day. Because I've just had to make peace with that. But yeah I'm like, we can go for a ten o'clock walk in the morning can go play outside at three. And then I can go back to work and just get it done before dinner. GH: Yeah. I will say, (inaudible) didn't remember to talk about that, but I do feel like I'm constantly in front of a screen, which is not good. And humans are social creatures, so it's tough to like -- so I'm absolutely a thousand percent, wear a mask. But it is tough to kind of just see this [covers lower half of face with hand] because I'll smile at somebody in public and they won't realize I'm smiling. So there's a lot of stuff that kind of feels a little bit inhuman about this. But it's for the best. Hopefully we can figure out how to get out of this. KL: I know. GH: I feel like this is going to be a lot longer than any of us will think it is. Mainly because we don't want to do that two-week strict quarantine, but -- KL: No, so stressful. GH: Also I think there was a study that was done that said that only half of the population that was surveyed about whether they get a vaccine or not would actually get a vaccine, so even if we do develop a vaccine, will it be taken seriously? That's tough. That's a personal thing ; that's just me kind of talking, so I hope that's usable. I don't know if it is. KL: I mean, it is. That's the thing, right? If someone in 30 years, who's going to know what happens, what the outcome of this is, can look back on it and be like, "Oh, that's what it was like to be living in it." Everyone has a story, and they all say something. You know? GH: Yeah. So the reason why I wanted to do this -- and I'm sorry I forgot about it for a while -- but I really think that my story is an important one, because -- and I am queer, but my family is just, that's not even something I can even talk about really. But I just feel like, I hope that people that are going through domestic abuse situations come forward about this stuff. Because I feel like a lot of people feel very stuck, especially kids, during this time. I feel so bad for little kiddies that just are in a really, really abusive household situation. Yeah, and I hope that this is something that resonates with people, because it was bad. (laughs) Yeah. And I shaved my head, too, because (laughs) I had a whole, full-blown identity crisis. And what's a better time to shave your head than in a pandemic where you're all inside all day? So check that off my bucket list, move on. KL: Perfect. I did think, "I should've colored my hair at the beginning of this." GH: You have such fun hair. You have like -- KL: I've got little nubbies. I call them my nubbies. Again, because I'm like, "Oh, now my hair's too long and I'm done with it." I've just gone like this and I just don't even care. (laughs) So you've shaved your head. That's awesome. GH: (inaudible) Grown out. I used to have a pixie cut, so it wasn't like anything crazy. But it was crazy for me. I just did it because I tried to give myself a haircut and then I was like, "I want a side shave." And then I did that and it didn't look good and I was like, "Okay, well I guess it's not salvageable, so you've got to shave it." And then I was like crying while I was doing it, but I was also like, "But this is so satisfying." So yeah. And there's some theories about how trauma lives in the hair, so maybe that was a symbolic sort of cleanse. I don't know, but yeah. Everyone kept calling me brave when I shaved it. I was like, "It's not brave. I kind of just have to deal with it." And I bought a wig but it looked terrible, so I was trying not to be brave. Yeah. It's kind of growing now. We're getting there, I don't know. KL: I like it. I know. Okay. So, you identify as queer. GH: Mm-hmm. Yeah, just generally queer. Yeah. I don't really care too -- I guess the closest -- I used to care about the label, because it's helpful to sort of have something to understand and feel connected with people on. Like, are other people experiencing this? And I was resonating with pansexual before. And then I was just like but I don't really know and I don't really care. And so I kind of just say queer or gay. I don't know ; I don't really care. Yeah. Yeah. KL: Is there anything else you want to talk about before I start asking you about obnoxious things like virtual Pride? GH: I don't know. KL: I'm sure you're all in on that. GH: I actually feel like something else that changed is dating during a pandemic. I'm [inherently?] single. I'm not mad about it, but I did try to go back on Bumble and stuff. And I did go on a virtual Zoom date and it was terrible. And because it was boring. And yeah, I feel like it's already hard enough to date when you're queer because everyone's dating everybody. I feel like the gay community is like band kids. Like all the band kids would date each other and it was just like, "What are they doing?" So it's a challenge, because everyone I know that's gay is already an ex of my friend or something. I'm just like, okay. But I don't know ; it's also kind of awkward because I had a successful date with somebody that I knew this past weekend, and we hugged, but I was like, I guess I need to be serious or at least make sure that I want to be involved with this person because now we might be spreading germs, so that's kind of similar to how -- not at all, well, I don't know. It's similar to HIV in that way. Except this affects everybody, so now I guess the straight community has to deal with like, oh, where has their mouth been? Where has their butthole or whatever been? Like, I don't know. So I think that there should be more said about dating in a pandemic. Obviously I think that the right answer is just keep your partners to a minimum because you don't want to spread shit, but is that really feasible? Are people going to listen to that? Obviously not because -- not that I'm saying that they shouldn't, I think that they should -- but it's kind of like telling people just not to have sex until they're married. That's not going to happen for most people. So yeah, I don't know if that's relevant, but [I want it to be?]. KL: No, it totally is. And some of the AIDS interviews that Liz has done -- so many people say the same thing, you know? They were active at the time, during the AIDS crisis, they were in their 20s and they were active in talking about safer sex with people and handing out condoms, and then totally being promiscuous on their own and taking none of their own advice and talking about how they did one thing and said a different thing. So I think it's similar, how you can say something and think, "Okay." Even going to the grocery store or whatever, when you're like, "Okay, I'll stand six feet apart from people." But then you're just walking past them because they're in your way. You just got to go. There's something that's human in how you're not used to being far apart from people, no matter what. And I don't know. Like in dating yeah. I mean, how can you just be like, "What's up? It's nice to meet you." And then just -- how do you end that conversation without like, a hug or something? GH: I just think about how colleges are reopening, and I was gross in college. Like, one of my best friends and I did a make out competition and we had -- first of all, everything was consensual. We had to ask to kiss somebody, whatever. But I made out with twelve people in the course of two weeks. We can't do that right now! We can't do that. That's gross! And also Moravian College just had the mumps outbreak before COVID, so I mean, it's just a lot to think about here. And everyone's just like, "Nope, we've got to keep on going because the economy." And I was just, "You can't have an economy if you lose a lot of people." And just because it says 1% doesn't mean that's a small number. Obviously comparatively, yeah, that's small. However, 1% of a million is a lot still. And I feel like teachers should be a little bit uncomfortable with reopening if like, "Well, only one percent of your students might die." You shouldn't want that. Anyways, rant over with that. I don't know. KL: I know. Well, that's all my feelings right now. And again, this isn't about me. But I'm on this college end of it, so I'm seeing how that college planning is going, and then I've got these kids in elementary school and I'm like, "I don't want them to go back to school," only because I hear all these faculty members -- they're not teaching in class. They don't want to be with students in class, and yeah, college kids are gross. But you know who else is gross? Fourth graders. You know? So it's like, how is -- yeah. Yeah. GH: Yeah, it's just not well thought out. What happens if one of the students gets COVID? What happens if the teacher gets COVID? I feel like they're just like, "Well, we have to do this because if we don't, then we lose money or we lose this." And also obviously school is really important to continue and social -- homeschooled kids are very obvious to the -- you know who those are, versus a public school kid or whatever. But I mean, it'll be fine. If we're all homeschooled, then that's the new norm. I don't know. KL: Yeah. Well I know. Some kids need to go to school because they need to learn how to be social with other kids. And I'm like, "Okay, my kids are super social so they don't need that part," so I feel like keeping them home for a year. They're going to be fine. I mean, they might not like it because they love other people, but hey, who likes it? I don't like it. I miss everyone I work with, I miss my friends, you know. GH: It's just so strange that we couldn't -- if the answer truly was stay put for two weeks, I guess we can't do that because there's people that literally think this is a hoax, but I don't know. Martial law is not -- if I was the president or dictator at this point, I would be like, "Okay, martial law. Two weeks. Get your groceries. You have a week to get your groceries and stuff, and then do not leave your property." KL: Yeah, lock everyone in. GH: I would be hated, but I would've saved the whole world. (laughs) KL: Everyone just do your thing. Binge TV shows for a week, a couple weeks, you're good. Eat and binge TV shows. Work out if you want to. GH: Yeah, and so I feel like a lot of cities aren't necessarily having issues. I feel like it's more left in cities, but where I'm from, there's Trump signs everywhere and everyone has a lot of property. So you don't even have to keep it inside. Just go outside and chill. I don't know. But yeah. What was the next question you had? KL: Oh my gosh. I don't -- it's whatever you want to talk about. I've got social life and personal pursuits, some categories. I have mental and physical health. We talked about dating. GH: Physical health, I guess physical health -- [dings] sorry. I had a gym membership before the quarantine, and I was going like three times a week. So I was trying to be better, and then this happened and I was like, "Perfect, I don't have to exercise anymore." I do have to cancel my gym membership though. But I need to be more active. I've been doing this thing called Randonauting, I don't know if you've ever heard of it. KL: No, I don't know what that is. GH: It's an app where they randomly generate a point on a map, given a parameter, and you're supposed to "manifest" -- I don't really like the idea of manifesting because I think it's a little bit a crock of bullshit, because just because you think good things doesn't mean good things will happen to you. Obviously having a positive mindset is ideal, but you know, I just think it's a little bit privileged, coming from that. Not everyone can think good thoughts and good things will happen to them. But you're supposed to manifest something, and then the point is generated, and then you go to that point and see what's up. And a lot of people on Reddit and Twitter have been finding really weird stuff. Like there's a lot of articles about people finding -- they'll manifest "death" and they'll find a dead body on a beach or something. So I don't do that, but what I do do is, I manifested -- I went with a friend because it kind of can be creepy sometimes, but I manifested a cryptid, which is like Sasquatch or Loch Ness. It's like mythical creatures. I was like, "I want to see a cryptid." And then they generated a point towards a strip mall, which is like, that's interesting. And we saw a groundhog. So it was like a cheeky sort of experience, but it's kind of fun and a lot of the times it'll be in the middle of a forest. So you have to hike, so that's been my sort of physical activity. I'll just go with a friend that I see regularly, because (inaudible) live together. If I have COVID, she has COVID. That's my sort of mental, or the way I work that out in my head. I hope it's not problematic, but if it is, I'm okay with it because I literally don't see anybody all day. So -- KL: No, I you know -- GH: I don't go to parties. I don't hang out with a lot of people. It's like three people that I see outside of my house, and that's it. But I guess people should get creative with how to spend their time, if they can't do the things that they were doing before. Yeah. KL: And like, reaching out to people that you can, I don't know, video chat with. Or be with in your bubble, whatever they're calling it. GH: I feel like a lot of people -- not me, because I don't like alcohol that much -- but I feel like a lot of people are concerning me with their alcohol consumption. Like, I'll call them and they'll be like, "Oh yeah, I'm just drinking." And like, again? It's a Tuesday. So I guess that goes along with mental health. But no, I haven't been doing that. Although maybe I should, on a weekend. But I feel like it's like, I don't know, doesn't feel like -- I don't know. KL: That's not the hobby you want to develop right now. GH: No, but I do feel like a lot of people are like, "Whelp, if I'm not going to go out, I guess I'm going to drink here," and then yeah, so, concerned. I think that there should be a -- if we're going to be doing this for a while, I think that there should be more messaging about how to be a person in this time. Because it seems like they're just telling us what we should be doing and then a lot of people get mad about it, that aren't creative. I don't know. Here's how you should be safe during a pandemic and also in a mental health way. Because not many people are about here with a counselor. So yeah. I think that that should be something that's focused on. I don't see that a lot anywhere, though. KL: Yeah I know, that's really true. I know, I'm like so thankful for my friends who I can be sad to every day, or be happy to, or yeah. GH: Oh, I guess another part is like, Black Lives Matter. I've been very passionate about showing up and helping as much as I can. Sometimes it just conflicts with my schedule, but I recently went to the -- I don't know if you heard about Palmerton's protest a couple weeks ago. It's a town over from where I used to live, and my good friends were the organizers. And it went very poorly. KL: Oh, no. GH: Lots of counter protestors. There was a lot of rumors that we were bussing in three hundred people from the Lehigh Valley, which is a very intentional terminology used by a lot of conspiracy theorists who think that George Soros funds this stuff. And there were like maybe 80 people there, and then like over three hundred of the other people there, not wearing masks. They also had guns and were pushing people, so I felt unsafe. I was having some heart palpitations from it, because it was hot out and I felt unsafe. So I left a little early, but it kind of was a wakeup call to me to see that people are really upset on both sides, and it's really hard to communicate. Not for me ; on my social media, I am pretty honest about my beliefs and I'll post something and be like, "If you want to talk about it, I'm absolutely down to talk about it. However, if you're rude, you're not allowed to. And you can absolutely unfriend me if this offends you." You know, like I'm not going to unfriend people for disagreeing. I will unfollow them if I see racist bullshit. I just don't want to create an echo chamber for myself, but I also don't want to spend time on people who just won't change. So I feel like a lot of people just don't want to have conversations. A lot of the Black Lives Matter protestors actually did want to have conversations, I will say, but I don't think they ever were in debate in high school or understand how to not -- I don't think opening up with, "That's racist," is going to reach people, even if it's true. So I feel like with the Trump presidency and with all these really, really contrasting views, it's just really hard to communicate. And no one's setting a real example, I think. If somebody called me a racist, I would be like, "Okay, why?" But I think most people would just be really offended and be like, "You're an asshole, fuck you." And I think there has to be some sort of know your audience, but unfortunately the people that showed up to this protest that were counter protesting it were not interested in listening at all. Because you know, if you showed up to protest a protest, I don't think you're going to listen. So I kind of tried -- I was the person that was trying to kind of reel us all in like hey, just ignore them. The more you do this thing -- you can't tell who's the idiot, if you're arguing with an idiot. So, I think that that was a big mental health thing for people. I'm mostly coming from the Black Lives Matter perspective rather than the other side, because that's a whole different sort of thing for me. But a lot of my friends continue to argue on Facebook and Instagram and Twitter, and I'm out here and I'm just like, "You know what? I need a break. This is a lot." And I know that kind of is selfish to take a break when other people can't take a break because this is their everyday life, but I can't continue to do my best and fight for what's right if I'm going to be drained and upset, so I'm going to educate myself. I took a week to read some Black and queer poetry, and then I talked with friends about it, and tonight I'm going to do a city council thing. We're going to do our best. I just don't think that a lot of people are realizing that they can't continue to keep doing the same thing and feel better. They're not going to. I appreciate the fight, though. I appreciate that people have so much passion for it, but I just realized, I'm twenty-three. And trying to please everybody has never worked for me. It's only made me want to die, so I'm not doing that anymore. I'm going to please myself, I'm going to try to please other people to the best of my ability, and if it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. So yeah. But small towns are tough, and I'm really glad that Lehigh Valley, at least the police aren't complete trash. They haven't been violent, as far as I can tell. So thankfully there's that, but not the same for the rest of the country, which is also really scary. Just a million different things happening that are completely bogus and crazy, and we're supposed to just be chill? Like no, it's okay to not be chill. Just don't push through that. Actually, we're in a pandemic, we're supposed to be quarantined. Take a second. You can. The fight's still going to be there tomorrow, absolutely. Yeah. I just wish I could tell people to slow down when they're supposed to be slowed down for a sec. And this is advice actually not that I came up with. This is advice from my advisor in college who I am friends with, and she is a really intelligent person. She has done a lot of good social justice work, but she takes breaks because you can't keep -- if it's a marathon, you can't just do that. KL: Yeah, because then you just can't continue to do it. You can't continue that work, and -- GH: As long as you get back into it. Some people, it is just a trend for some people. That's to be expected, and it doesn't bother me as much as it should, probably, because I'm just like, well, the women's march back in 2016, the more people involved, I think the less specific an issue becomes. Obviously it's raising awareness towards something, but I think a lot of the criticisms of the women's march were that it was vague. And it was, but it also showed how intersectional feminism can pretty much encompass every part of our lives, so you know, good and bad with it. But with stuff that is racial, it's probably best for people that aren't going to say the right stuff to let other voices come through more, because some people really are like, "Yeah, Black Lives Matter, but I'm not racist." You know what, if you're white, you're probably a little racist at least. KL: Yeah. You can't see that in yourself and admit that. GH: Yeah. Some of the protests I went to, where they had people like come up and speak about something. I saw some white people go up. I'm like, "Sit back down, sit back down. This isn't your time. Wait until other people go up, oh my gosh." So you know, I'm not necessarily [in bad?] about it. I mean, obviously the more the merrier that are going to stand in solidarity, but some people's voices do come through when they shouldn't. Just like with TERFs, like JK Rowling. I mean, we don't want her to be talking right now. No thank you. Yup. Yeah. KL: Yeah. Okay. I don't know, I feel like we have a few more minutes. So if you have anything else to say before we wrap it up. GH: Not really. I think I did a good rant sesh. KL: Me too. It was awesome. GH: Yup. Thank you for doing this. It's really cool. I'm excited to see what the product of it is, and yeah. I think this is going to be -- it's cool to be part of a history thing. KL: Yeah, I mean thank you so much for your time. GH: Absolutely. KL: And it's interesting on -- it's been fun to see everybody. It's been fun to listen to people, and I don't know. I don't know if fun's the right word, but it's been good. And it's, I think, a good -- I don't even know. A good view of all the things. GH: So, is this an anonymous thing, or not really? KL: Not really. I mean, if you want it to be. GH: So, I guess it's fine. I'm comfortable with sharing any of that, but I feel like some people -- I guess with the mental health stuff where I talk about the sensitive stuff, definitely trigger warning for some people. And I want it to be very evident that I am okay, because I don't want people worrying about me. I didn't tell anybody at work that -- they knew that there was stuff going on in my life, because they saw that my environment changed on Zoom. But I didn't tell them that I was that bad. So I guess I'm chill with it. I just hope that it's put in a way that doesn't concern my friends and family. Which, it is concerning but I'm okay. I don't know. I'm cool with whatever, and I'm not going to take back anything. KL: Well, I mean, I'm still recording by the way. But I mean, you'll get the transcript and you can look through it, and if you want to cut anything out, we can do that. GH: Yeah, okay. KL: And then, what else? GH: It should be fine. KL: And Ariel did one of these, too. GH: Ariel? KL: Mm-hmm. He did that. He did one. GH: Ollie also told me he did one. KL: Oh, did he? GH: I think so. Do you know Ollie? KL: I do know Ollie. GH: He used to work at the center. KL: Or, did he, with Liz? GH: Maybe with Liz. KL: Maybe he hasn't done it yet. Anyway, sorry, I just got [involved?] thinking of all of Liz's (inaudible). GH: You're really good at this. You made me feel very comfortable. Yeah. KL: Good, I'm glad. I know. I should stop recording, and then I'll say -- anyway, thank you! I'm going to stop recording, and then I'll just talk to you for fun. GH: Oh, Okay. KL: Hold on. And -- END OF VIDEO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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00:48:24
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Gabby Hochfeld, July 29, 2020
Description
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Gabby Hochfeld discusses her life experiences during the COVID-19 pandemic including the ways in which it has effected her mental health, work life, and social interactions.
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PH40_03
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
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2020-07-29
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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https://lgbt.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/50386fc40975b456aca198701ff859dd.png
1ec6c2f5285bf32ad62909d94d4adf6e
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
An account of the resource
In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Liz Bradbury
Interviewee
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Ariel Torres
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_10.xml
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5.4 July 14, 2020 Ariel Torres, July 14, 2020 PH40_10 01:01:57 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Ariel Torres Liz Bradbury video/mpeg TorresAriel_20200714_video.mp4 1.0:|31(4)|52(7)|85(9)|130(11)|163(8)|194(5)|231(7)|260(14)|287(12)|320(15)|355(2)|386(13)|417(12)|446(2)|471(8)|508(4)|537(4)|570(13)|601(10)|630(14)|663(17)|698(8)|745(15)|780(9)|821(8)|868(2)|895(4)|942(13)|979(11)|1012(16)|1037(5)|1070(6)|1103(3)|1130(9)|1163(11)|1202(9)|1237(12)|1274(10)|1299(14)|1342(2)|1381(2)|1428(11)|1471(12)|1512(12)|1547(13)|1578(12)|1611(9)|1654(14)|1701(3)|1748(7)|1791(5)|1820(3)|1859(5)|1890(12)|1931(13)|1976(11)|2023(2)|2056(13)|2083(4)|2108(13)|2143(14)|2188(5) 0 https://youtu.be/3wvBkM5hPn4 YouTube video 0 Interview Introduction LB: - now -- wait, wait (laughter) one second. I’m not going to turn it off. I don’t want to get in trouble. He’ll be right back. (laughs) Oh, okay, bear with us, everyone. He’ll be right back here.
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 ; AT: I’m sorry. Look at that.
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 ; LB: Oh, that’s bling-y. That’s good. It’s beautiful. But you’re so much more handsome. I don’t want you to wear that one because I can’t -- you know it’s so hard to understand -- it’s hard to hear what people are saying when they’re wearing the mask because you can’t see their mouths. It’s really hard with Trish. You can’t wear the mask --
 ; 0 289 Working as the Pride programs manager at the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center/Pride going virtual due to pandemic LB: And so, have you been working? Has your employer closed or laid you off? And I know the answer to that. So, want to talk about where you work and what you do?
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 ; AT: Yeah, so I work at the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and I’m the Pride programs manager, which basically is a very, very, very condensed way of saying I run the festival. 0 364 Working part-time as drag queen Elektra Fearce St. James/Missing socialization due to pandemic LB: So, let’s talk a little bit about -- you have other parts of your life that also include the stuff that you do that has been really -- had a significant impact because you have another job, too.
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 ; AT: Yeah.
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 ; LB: And that’s really been -- have had a strong impact from COVID, so talk about that a little bit.
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 ; AT: Yeah, so, of course, by day, I run the Lehigh Valley Pride festival and by night, on some nights, I am Elektra Fearce St. James 0 545 Communicating with family through Facebook Messenger and Zoom LB: And so, are you socializing with people in other ways? I mean, are you using online stuff or video chats or phone or --
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 ; AT: Yeah, yeah, definitely. We’re using Facebook Messenger a lot. I have a group chat that goes on because we already did it kind of anyway, so I like to say I was a little bit trained for this before it kind of happened. 0 675 Spending time with family during the pandemic LB: And not only are you -- you have a lot of friends but you have a big family, don’t you?
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 ; AT: Yeah, my family is huge. My mother’s one of fifteen and my dad is one of seven. So, that’s twenty-two aunts and uncles. Not all of them are still living but -- and they each have plenty of children. So, I meet a new cousin every week. (laughter) 
 ; 0 756 Thoughts on Dr. Rachel Levine LB: Well, I was going to ask you about how you feel about seeing Rachel Levine, Dr. Rachel Levine, and how that is sort of a positive thing for all of us. Say a little bit more about that and our --
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 ; AT: Yeah.
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 ; LB: -- our own (inaudible)
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 ; AT: Definitely. It’s very empowering to see someone who can just -- I want to say it’s like breaking barriers, you know? 0 932 Discussion of how pandemic has affected life in general LB: So, do you think, I mean, it’s interesting that -- like, this is a question that I think people wrote before we were really in the thick of the pandemic. And really, in the grand scheme of things, we haven’t been in it that long. But this is saying how has it affected your life? And, I mean, I can’t think -- and for me and you, I don’t think -- I think it’s affected every moment of every day, you know?
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 ; AT: So, yeah, I think -- for someone to say that it hasn’t affected them, I feel like it’s -- I hate to say it but it’s somebody who’s living in denial. 0 1134 Gradually going back out to eat as Covid restrictions lessen/safely taking account of mental health and socializing with others LB: I think, so, this is asking, like, are you staying in and are you limiting going out? I mean, have you been going to the grocery store and have you been going out to eat or what do you think?
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 ; AT: I think -- so, my aunt loves the diners. I grew up with -- I always say my one aunt, she gave me a childhood because my dad was a homebody and my mom didn’t drive 0 1286 Performing drag during Covid restrictions LB: So, this says whatever queer activities have you been doing? And it’s funny that you and I do queer activities all day long every day, so --
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 ; AT: Right.
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 ; LB: -- it’s hard to find something that isn’t queer that we’re doing, so --
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 ; AT: Right, well, I mean, I did -- since we are in the green, I did perform this past Sunday at a very limited seating kind of place. I did have, like, a face shield on, so that was -- it was fun to do but it was still a little scary.
 ; 0 1464 Experience working from home LB: Now, he does something that’s drastically -- I think is very different from -- than you would normally do. But you’re getting up a lot earlier than you normally do.
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 ; AT: Yes, I am because I don’t --
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 ; LB: [All the time?]. (laughter) And also, there’s other reasons, too. Explain why that is. It’s not just because you’re home.
 ; 0 1697 Frustrations/concerns during pandemic LB: So, what’s the biggest frustration or fear you have or challenge that you’ve had during this time? I mean, are there -- that are just so frustrating for you?
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 ; AT: Honestly, other people who don’t take this seriously.
 ; 0 1780 Similarities between 1918 Spanish flu and Covid-19 pandemics LB: Yeah, (laughter) I’ve always -- I mean, I know I’ve told you before that in 1918, my grandmother died and she was thirty-two years old at the time. And my father was four and he, then, grew up without a mother and -- because in the flu epidemic of 1918, most people who got it were between the ages of twenty and forty and she was right in the middle of that time. 0 1975 Pandemic's affect on mental health LB: So, like, you always seem like such a normally even-keeled guy. (laughter) You think this is affecting your mental health?
 ; 
 ; AT: I feel like in the beginning it did because I was a little more -- I was on the worried side. 0 2100 Discussion of taking Covid risks responsibly/Taking into consideration health of others AT: And so, just something I want to draw home. If you want to take the risks, that’s fine. But just make sure you do it responsibly. Make sure you take every precaution possible.
 ; 
 ; LB: Yeah, and the likelihood of people -- I mean, it’s so easy to be frustrated at people who will say, “Well, I don’t care if I get sick.” And you’re saying, “Yeah, but you’re going to make other people sick.” 0 2215 Family who have contracted Covid-19 AT: I had a cousin who actually contracted COVID and an uncle. They’re not in the same home but my aunt -- they worked at a retirement home and my cousin does home care. And she’s one of the strongest people I know. 0 2405 Sharing positive experiences resulting from staying/working from home LB: So, what, of all the stuff that you’ve been doing, what’s the best thing that’s been happening? Is there anything -- like, some people will say, “I’m such an introvert, I really love this, I don’t have to talk to anybody.” (laughs)
 ; 
 ; AT: Well, okay, so I -- see, I do love going out but secretly, I do have a little bit of my father in me. I am a homebody. So, working from home, I think, has been great. 0 2498 Discussing anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers LB: It’s probably hard -- it’s hard to imagine how we can stop this -- I just read -- Trish just read a thing that said that if every person in the country wore a mask every single day for the next -- you know, three months, it would be gone. It’d be over.
 ; 
 ; AT: Eradicated.
 ; 0 2855 Discussion of computer security/Playing video games during the pandemic LB: It’s so funny because my sister even said some -- one of those things. Like, she said she thought that the -- and she never fussed up like this. And she said she thought the camera in her computer was watching her. And I said, “Well, is it on?” And she said, “No.” I said, “Well, come on! I mean, unless you’re downloading a bunch of really hacky programs that are -- you know, have you downloaded a lot of programs?” 0 2970 Family members who have contracted Covid-19/How the disease affected them differently LB: So, here’s the next question. Here’s the next question. Let’s see. And so, I’ve already asked you. You have people in your family that have had this.
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 ; AT: Yeah.
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 ; LB: And [your parents?] --
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 ; AT: And something I didn’t -- well, if you -- actually, something I can add, since that question just came up, my aunt and uncle, the ones who got it, who are married, my aunt tested positive but she was asymptomatic. And her husband ended up in the hospital for three days. 0 3146 Traveling to Florida during the pandemic LB: You went on a trip. You went to California-- or to Florida.
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 ; AT: I did go to Florida, yes.
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 ; LB: And what was that like? What’s it like in the airport?
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 ; AT: It was okay. I was a little nervous. I was under the assumption that the flights would be only flown at, like, certain capacity. That flight was entirely full.
 ; 0 3426 Discussing vaccinations LB: And what are we going to do? We can’t go there if -- and there’s no end in sight. It’s not going to end until there’s, like, a mandatory vaccination.
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 ; AT: Right.
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 ; LB: Because -- or until we can be vaccinated. You know, if we’re vaccinated, that means that then we don’t have to worry if they really have a successful vaccine. But it takes a while to get a good vaccine. 0 3465 Thoughts on Black Lives Matter/Attending protests during the pandemic LB: So, we’re coming to the end of this. So, let me ask you one more question, because we’re talking about -- I’m asking everybody about all the things that are happening now and a lot of other things are happening at the same time as COVID and we can’t really separate that. So, I want to talk to you about Black Lives Matter and see -- you want to talk a little bit about that and what’s happening in Allentown right now and what’s happening in the United States right now and if you want to say anything about that.
 ; 0 3678 Conclusion AT: Because I could go on for hours but this is the end of the interview, so we’re just going to leave it there.
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 ; LB: I’m thinking, yeah, you know, I would let you go on for hours but I know you have to do work. (laughs)
 ; 0 MovingImage Ariel talks about how the current COVID-19 pandemic is affecting him, his friends and his family, his work on the Pride Festival and other projects at Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center. He also talks about traveling, not being able to do his second job as a nationally known drag performer, his daily routine, and Black Lives Matter issues.
 ; Ariel Torres 2020-07-14 LIZ BRADBURY: -- now -- wait, wait (laughter) one second. I'm not going to turn it off. I don't want to get in trouble. He'll be right back. (laughs) Oh, okay, bear with us, everyone. He'll be right back here. AT: I'm sorry. Look at that. LB: Oh, that's bling-y. That's good. It's beautiful. But you're so much more handsome. I don't want you to wear that one because I can't -- you know it's so hard to understand -- it's hard to hear what people are saying when they're wearing the mask because you can't see their mouths. It's really hard with Trish. You can't wear the mask -- AT: [And it's just?] -- LB: -- you have to take the mask off. Okay, I -- AT: [You asked if -- promise?] to be at the beginning of the recording -- LB: Okay, okay. So, I want to be sure that we're pinned in here. I think you're pinned. Now you're good. Okay, and so, this is the deal. With this project, Bradbury-Sullivan LBGT Community Center at the Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community, collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury and I'm here with Ariel Torres to talk about his experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of the COVID-19 pandemic as part of the Lehigh Valley Community Archive. We are meeting on Zoom on July 14th, 2020. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start, please state your full name and spell it for me. AT: My full name is Ariel Torres and it is spelled A-R-I-E-L T-O-R-R-E-S. LB: Will you please share your birth date? AT: I was born on May 2nd of 1985. LB: Okay, and you are in -- what town are you in? You're in Bethlehem? AT: I am in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. LB: Okay. This is the consent part. So, now, we say do you consent to this interview today? AT: Yes. LB: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable formats? AT: An enthusiastic yes! LB: (laughs) Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats including films, articles, websites, presentations, and other things? AT: Si, which is yes in Spanish. LB: (laughs) Do you understand that you will have thirty days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview, identifying any parts you'd like to delete or withdraw the whole interview from the project if you choose? AT: Yes. LB: Okay. So, this is what we're -- so, now, here's a couple of things. These are some identity things. So, what's your zip code where you are? AT: I am 18018. LB: And what is your age? AT: (laughs) Do I really have to tell it? LB: You do not if you don't want to. AT: Well, I'm thirty-five -- LB: I can (inaudible) AT: -- thirty-five and proud. It's fine. LB: Thirty-five, okay. And how do you identify within the LGBT community in terms of sexual orientation, gender identity, and stuff like that? AT: I am a gay male. LB: Okay. Here are some things to think about. And so, you identify as cisgender, is that correct? AT: A cisgendered gay male, yeah -- LB: Okay. AT: -- who also does drag on the sides, so call me whatever you want with pronouns, just not late to dinner. LB: (laughs) All right. So, I have all these questions and I think I'm just going to throw these at you and you can talk as long as you want. You can say whatever you want. This is all about how COVID is affecting your life. And it is affecting your life -- and sort of affecting your life within the LGBT community and then in general. So, I know the answers to some of these but let's start out, so -- and this is also going to go into the archives so that people 30 years from now can look at this and go what was this like during this time? And then, they'll say -- AT: Yeah, they're going to say, rough, they had to do this on a computer. Oh, who does that? (laughter) Technology will be light years ahead of us by then. LB: No, I wonder how it will be. So, who is -- you're by yourself. Who's in your home with you? Do you have anybody else living with you? AT: Nope, I live alone. LB: Okay. And so, have you been working? Has your employer closed or laid you off? And I know the answer to that. So, want to talk about where you work and what you do? AT: Yeah, so I work at the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and I'm the Pride programs manager, which basically is a very, very, very condensed way of saying I run the festival. But there are so many moving parts that go into running a festival when it comes to planning, organizing, you know, all of that good stuff. And due to COVID-19, unfortunately, we had to go virtual this year. So, it's like learning how to plan an entire festival in a virtual format. So, just when you think you have it down pat, COVID hits and it shakes up my life just as much as everybody else's but just in a different way, I'm sure. LB: So, this festival's been going on for about, what, this is the 27th or 28th one? AT: Since 199-- I want to say four. LB: Ninety-four. It's '94, it's '94. AT: Ninety-four. LB: Yeah. AT: So, twenty years will be 2024 and we're in 2020. So, it's about sixteen years, yeah. My math is wrong. LB: No, that is thirty years. AT: Thirty years, yeah. LB: Yes. AT: Sorry. (laughter) LB: And -- AT: That's right. I run the festival but I don't do accounting, I'm sorry. LB: (laughs) And so, but the center has only been doing this and our center has only been open for a while and you've done this, the festival since we took it over. And how long has that been? AT: This would have been our third in person festival that we were in charge of. So, now this is our third festival but the only difference is it's virtual now instead of in person. (laughs) And so -- LB: So, let's talk a little bit about -- you have other parts of your life that also include the stuff that you do that has been really -- had a significant impact because you have another job, too. AT: Yeah. LB: And that's really been -- have had a strong impact from COVID, so talk about that a little bit. AT: Yeah, so, of course, by day, I run the Lehigh Valley Pride festival and by night, on some nights, I am Elektra Fearce St. James. I perform as an entertainer here in the Lehigh Valley and I've been doing that for about 15 years now. So, it's been quite a while. And for everybody who's out there, in case you wanted to know what I look like, I'm turning on a virtual background for you. And there I am! LB: Oh, okay, oh! AT: Little bit of leg. Again, technology is not 20 years in the future but there is Elektra Fearce St. James. So, that's me on some nights, when there's a full moon. As you can see, I look like a wolf. LB: You look great in -- AT: But, yeah, it's been quite the experience. Drag is like a steady income for me. I perform really regularly, not only locally but I travel a lot, I go out of town. And with everything being shut down, it has given me a little bit of a financial strain. Thankfully, I do have my day job, which allows me to continue and, you know, still live a good life. But, you know, that extra money is just, like, not there like it used to be. But also, just being around people -- I'm a people person, that's why I love my position at the Center. I'm in a position within my community to help others to -- if I don't know the answers to certain questions, though I run the Pride festival, I've been with the organization as an administrative manager before. So, I've been in certain positions where it's very fulfilling. Pro-fo-homo is what some people call a professional homosexual person. So, it's just -- it's hard being at home, not being able to be at the bars, you know? I enjoy a good cocktail just like many other people, not that it's necessary to have a good time but I do enjoy them. So, just being around the atmosphere of my peers, locally, and just within the state of Pennsylvania and the tri-state area, it's been quite an adjustment to just not be around people who you're used to seeing, right? So, you start to realize who you miss during pandemics. (laughs) LB: Yeah. AT: Definitely. LB: Really do. And so, are you socializing with people in other ways? I mean, are you using online stuff or video chats or phone or -- AT: Yeah, yeah, definitely. We're using Facebook Messenger a lot. I have a group chat that goes on because we already did it kind of anyway, so I like to say I was a little bit trained for this before it kind of happened. But I have some really close friends. Some live in Florida that used to live here, so we have a group chat of about, like, I think eight or nine of us sometimes. I just jump on a call randomly throughout, like, any given day. So, that really helps. Unfortunately, my grandfather passed away during this pandemic. Not from COVID but -- and, you know, that was even hard. We couldn't have -- my family's very Catholic, so there's always the viewing for about two days and then you drive to the church and then you go to the burial. We had to just go to the burial. Like, it was like leaving from home, you get to the burial site. Everybody was socially distant and even that was a challenge. They wanted to put a cap on how many people could be there, so it's definitely strange times. But it's just so many different moving parts that make it -- and things that you didn't think about before that you wouldn't even give a second thought have not become part of our day to day. So, it really has affected me in that way. But, you know, things like Facebook Messenger, like I said, and Zoom calls. Like, we had to rally behind Zoom calls with -- I say the younger generation, you know? The cousins. We did family Zoom calls for a few weeks, just to, like, have mental health check-ins and make sure that the family was doing okay in case we had to be there for each other. That way, we could be mentally prepared and tell ourselves, okay, I have to leave my house. I have to go help this person with this. They're not doing really well right now. I have to go make -- do I have my mask? That's the worst thing. You drive halfway there and then you have to turn around and say, oh, my gosh I left -- LB: Yeah! AT: -- mask at home. LB: No! AT: Because the last thing I want to do is really go try to help somebody and who knows? Nowadays you could be asymptomatic and you don't even know from just checking your vitals. So, like, you have to be careful, you know? The little things before that we wouldn't worry about have just -- you know, starting to be second nature to us, so -- LB: And not only are you -- you have a lot of friends but you have a big family, don't you? AT: Yeah, my family is huge. My mother's one of fifteen and my dad is one of seven. So, that's twenty-two aunts and uncles. Not all of them are still living but -- and they each have plenty of children. So, I meet a new cousin every week. (laughter) LB: And you haven't been able to see any of them in person for a while. Maybe they come over and wave from -- you for far away or -- AT: Well, I do have -- two of my cousins, especially, we have already given each other the rundown, we know how to be in public spaces. They know where I work, especially because we were such advocates when it comes to health, especially health disparities within the LGBT community. So, we follow Dr. Rachel Levine, like, very closely, the instructions. So, we feel comfortable enough to be around each other even though we don't live in the same home because we might as well live in the same home with as much as we see each other. So, that's been a little bit of a saving grace with visits here and there, socially distant on the porch, you know? I have my hand sanitizer always by the door. I just ran out of Lysol, so nobody's allowed to come over until I get some more. (laughter) LB: I know! AT: That's where I am now. LB: Well, I was going to ask you about how you feel about seeing Rachel Levine, Dr. Rachel Levine, and how that is sort of a positive thing for all of us. Say a little bit more about that and our -- AT: Yeah. LB: -- our own (inaudible) AT: Definitely. It's very empowering to see someone who can just -- I want to say it's like breaking barriers, you know? It's, like, not really caring what other people think. I've been in the comments section. She's been treated so terribly and disrespected so much in the comments and it takes everything in me not to just, like, fall into the bait because it's a bait and those comment threads will just go on and on and on. But to just see somebody who is living their truth and is not worried about what anybody thinks and literally is put to the test of that every single day is just -- I think that she is an amazing person and I couldn't think of anybody better to lead us during a crisis like this. And I think she's doing the best job she can possibly do. So, if you see this, thank you. (laughter) Thank you, thank you, thank you. (laughs) LB: Well, we are all really grateful for her. I mean, we -- there's so much misinformation that's going on and lack of leadership, I think, in other areas, so it's wonderful to see her and the leaders we do have. So, this question is on my list. I didn't write this but are you spending any time on queer dating or hook-up apps and have you found queer community despite --- you know, additional queer community despite these restrictions? AT: Yeah, I definitely am no stranger to, you know, Grindr or any of the other social apps that are targeted for, you know, the hi and bye is what I call it. (laughs) A lot of people use it for a hi and bye. (laughter) So, I think I -- like, yes, I am still on them. I do, I use them for conversation but I find it very scary, though, some of the messages that I do get because, I mean, there are a lot of people out there who just don't take this pandemic into consideration. And, yeah, let's just say their message starters aren't always just about conversation and I think they should be safer. So, I just -- I've become familiar with the block button because, you know, you have to take care of yourself in a time like this and sending messages that kind of will lead to a hi and bye situation right from the jump just tells me how much you really do care about yourself. So, if you don't care that much about yourself, you're not really caring about what you're going to put me through, so I'd rather not meet. So, thank you and goodbye. You don't get the hi. You just get the goodbye. (laughter) LB: That's a good one. I haven't heard that before and really looked into that now. AT:Yeah. I just made it on the fly now because it's, like, how do I talk about this? (laughter) LB: The hi and bye? AT: Yeah. LB: You just made that up? AT: Hi -- yeah. LB: You're brilliant! AT: Yes, made it up right now, right off the top of my head. LB: My gosh! (laughs) So, do you think, I mean, it's interesting that -- like, this is a question that I think people wrote before we were really in the thick of the pandemic. And really, in the grand scheme of things, we haven't been in it that long. But this is saying how has it affected your life? And, I mean, I can't think -- and for me and you, I don't think -- I think it's affected every moment of every day, you know? AT: So, yeah, I think -- for someone to say that it hasn't affected them, I feel like it's -- I hate to say it but it's somebody who's living in denial. LB: Yeah. AT: You know? You have to think about this. This is very serious. It's very -- it should impact your life in many, many ways and if you're going around and your life hasn't been impacted that much and you're not an essential worker who's just annoyed with having to put on extra protections -- I mean, those people still have to go to work every day. So, thank you to them for being on the front lines, you know, the first responders, all of that. But how can it not affect you in every single aspect? Like I said, it's -- I've seen videos of people -- this is really bringing out, like, the worst nature in people, I feel, especially with social media being present and the videos that I see of anti-maskers and just people thinking that their civil liberties are being taken away. And this is something that you can spread to someone else without even trying, without even thinking about it, just by doing your day-to-day activities. So, you know, this isn't just you protecting yourself. It's protecting those who are more susceptible to this. So, people who are more in danger of losing their lives. So, like, I look at it, like, you know, just because they have great immune systems and they think that this is all a hoax and that they'll pull through even if they get it, it's, like, what does that say about how do you care about your community and what, like -- and I don't even like to go to my mother's house. Like, she gets upset with me and I'm, like, "Mom, we're in a pandemic. No, I'm not visiting you every day. Like, that's not -- I'm not doing that." LB: Yeah. AT: Because my mom is the type that, in a week -- it's too much time for her. She says, you know, "I may die sometime soon" and she does the whole Hispanic woman guilt thing on -- (laughter) and now that COVID's here, she can be, like, "It can take me at any moment. You never know." Because she's diabetic, so she has a compromised immune system, as well, and I'm, like, "Mom, stop." (laughs) "For all I know, like, I could inadvertently bring this to you and it's because I care that you haven't seen me." So, you have to make, like, the tough choices. And it's just it's -- I think it's brought out the ugly in a lot of people and for somebody to say that it hasn't affected them on some level is just asinine. LB: Well, it's really impossible to not affect somebody because, after all, just the fact that you can't go to the grocery store without having -- noticing that there's a specific effect -- it's affecting, you know, whether we can get certain things, buy certain things. It's affected whether we can get into the grocery store without a mask. I mean, you can't go in without a mask. So, if you're -- and if you do wear the mask and you take it off or you're not wearing it, people will yell at you and they have a right to yell at you because you're really putting them at risk. So, how could you pretend that that didn't have an effect on you? Would be impossible to not do it. AT: Yeah. LB: I think, so, this is asking, like, are you staying in and are you limiting going out? I mean, have you been going to the grocery store and have you been going out to eat or what do you think? AT: I think -- so, my aunt loves the diners. I grew up with -- I always say my one aunt, she gave me a childhood because my dad was a homebody and my mom didn't drive. But my aunt, she loved going to the diners, loved traveling out of town. So, I was, like, with, I'm very -- those are the two cousins that I'm very, very close with (inaudible) so I always say she gave me, like, a real fun childhood. And so, you know, I'm like that person that, like, will be sitting at a diner with my aunt at, like, nine p.m. at night, drinking coffee before bed. (laughter) Like, that's just, like -- yeah and it's not even just, like -- it's just the repetition of it, right, because we have that bond with each other and we've changed that. So, her coming here sometimes for coffee. Like, we'll visit each other but we haven't really gone -- I think we've been to one diner since we've been in the green. And they were very good about, you know, having your mask on when you came in, the server wore the mask at all times, and then when the food came, you could take your mask off, you can eat, and we made sure that we didn't make it a point to kind of hang out in there like we kind of do and have, like, five cups of coffee or four, you know? Like, we were in and out. But we kind of needed that just to get a little bit of normalcy. But I will say, like, it's definitely -- we've been, again, to one since this all happened. But we're definitely not in a rush. We have found other ways to, like, have our coffee together -- LB: Good. AT: -- in a safer way. And I think that's what more people should kind of pay attention to if -- you know, forget normalcy. Normalcy's gone, right? LB: Yeah. AT: What can you do to help others? And for your mental health, if you have to do things, what is the safest possible way that you can do them? So, that's -- I'm trying to lead by example, even, like I said, even when my mother wants me to come over. I'm going today but then she won't see me until, like, next week or maybe even two weeks after that because you just don't know, you know? LB: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was talking to somebody who sort of takes care of her eighty-eight-year-old -- you know, her parents who are in their eighties and they were, like, "You have to come over, you have to hug us." And she said, "Okay, you can't go out and I can never go out because I don't want to be the one that kills you." AT: Right. LB: Who wants to have that over their head for the rest of their lives? AT: I know I don't. LB: No kidding. So, this says whatever queer activities have you been doing? And it's funny that you and I do queer activities all day long every day, so -- AT: Right. LB: -- it's hard to find something that isn't queer that we're doing, so -- AT: Right, well, I mean, I did -- since we are in the green, I did perform this past Sunday at a very limited seating kind of place. I did have, like, a face shield on, so that was -- it was fun to do but it was still a little scary. LB: You bet. AT: Just because -- you can't ignore this just because things seem to have gotten better. LB: Yeah. AT: Just because something's a certain way doesn't necessarily -- it is that. Never take anything at face value, you know?LB: No, nothing. AT: Take -- LB: Where were you, where -- AT: I was in York, Pennsylvania. LB: Where? AT: York, Pennsylvania. LB: Oh, York. York, yeah. AT: Yeah. There was, like, some sort of, like, hookah lounge kind of show thing where they kind of wanted to try an LGBT night there. They had just opened, which I thought -- which was kind of what helped me say, like, okay, like, I'll do it. Secretly, I thought it would be canceled because of COVID and, of course, they didn't cancel. And I'm, like, well, now I'm in a pickle -- LB: Amazing! AT: -- and I have to go. But I will say that they just opened. I think they've been open one weekend and we were that Sunday and they made sure that they included an LGBT night from the start, which -- LB: That's cool. AT: -- I thought -- really nice of them. So, I kind of -- you know, I took my risk, I took my chance. I went out there, I was just safe as possible. I performed and I just wanted to show up and kind of let them know, like, you know, we're worth having. Like, we're not going to -- we understand you're running a business but we're worth having in your establishment, so thanks for thinking of us and thanks for giving us opportunities to perform and to work during this time, and in a safe place, because they were taking temperatures at the front door, as well, and people did have their masks. I mean, they were doing, like, their hookahs and stuff but, like, you know, for the most part, everyone had, like, their masks on and temperatures were checked at the door, metal detector, all that good stuff. So, they were really impressive. LB: Were there a lot of people there? AT: I want to say there was probably about twenty to twenty-five people there, so not too many. It wasn't like a normal, like, nightclub gig where I can come into contact with maybe, like, two hundred people in one night, especially being an entertainer. They had Lysol spray ready for the money as we were, like, collecting because money's very dirty to begin with -- LB: True. AT: -- you know? And, like, to tip you. So, you know, there was Lysol ready for, like, the money and stuff like that, hand sanitizer for right when you came offstage. Like, it was fun and I think people were just happy to have that tiny bit of normalcy with a little bit of extra intertwined with it to keep them safe. LB: And when was that? You did it yesterday or -- AT: Sunday. LB: Sunday. AT: Yeah. So, I drove after the show, late at night, and then I was up bright and early, eight a.m. on Monday to help get -- or, well, now, I shouldn't say help to get to work. LB: Yeah. AT: So, I [virtual arrive?]. LB: Now, he does something that's drastically -- I think is very different from -- than you would normally do. But you're getting up a lot earlier than you normally do. AT: Yes, I am because I don't -- LB: [All the time?]. (laughter) And also, there's other reasons, too. Explain why that is. It's not just because you're home. AT: Well, I mean, I feel like being home is a big part because, like, what could -- there's only so much you can do in your home. So, I hate to fall asleep on the couch. I like to ride the wave in my bed. So, I kind of lay down -- think at nine or ten o'clock at night. So, watch TV in bed. That way, if that sleepiness comes, I can ride it to the morning. LB: Right. AT: The center is usually open from ten to six but I really enjoy getting up earlier to -- having a little bit more of the day, just seeing -- I love the sun. I love -- I've been up to Rainbow Mountain a few times, socially distant, of course, to, like, sunbathe and, like, get in the pool and stuff like that. So, I like to at least have a little bit left of my day of daytime, because I don't know if you're anything like me. When the winter comes, it's, like, so depressing because we leave and it's dark outside when we leave work. LB: Yeah, know just what you mean. AT: Yeah. LB: I walk home and then I walk home in the dark. AT: Yeah. LB: [We keep doing that?], yeah. AT: You do. LB: And even if it's just five o'clock and I don't even -- I don't usually leave -- and if I leave at six o'clock, it's always dark. So, yeah, no question. AT: So, I love, yeah, I love the sun and I love -- and, like, I just -- I don't know. I just feel like I get more accomplished getting up earlier in the morning. (laughs) LB: Yeah. AT: So, I mean, if I had it my way, I'd continue. LB: I think one of the things that we've done in the past, I mean, our center does that for a lot of reasons, I think, when -- and I was -- I have to admit, have to confess, I was the one that made that happen because Adrian wanted to be nine to five and I said, "I'm not coming in before ten." AT: Yeah. LB: And actually, I think that that's turned out to be better because we're there until six, which covers a lot of our evening programs. So, we don't have to -- a lot of people don't have to do extra stuff. We often have an evening program that's done by six o'clock. And also, I know that this is true for Adrian although he probably curses this at some level, but he often likes to have -- he has a lot of meetings before he comes into work. Doesn't do that -- now it's all different but I'm liking leav-- you know, coming, doing stuff earlier in the day, too, I think. But I don't tend to do that as much when I'm at the Center. I actually want to have time before to do stuff. AT: Right. LB: So, you know, you can have a -- AT: Well, it did used to help sometimes, like, if I had to schedule, like, a checkup, like, a doctor's appointment or something -- LB: Sure. AT: -- scheduled at eight thirty and then still be able to get to work on time. Like, yeah, that was definitely a perk -- to having that. LB: And you can have -- like, I could have -- so, since I walk to work, it takes me a while to walk to work. Takes half an hour. Can take up to half an hour. So, you know, otherwise, I'd be leaving at eight thirty and instead, I leave at nine thirty, you know? But it does -- like, I can get up and I can get things done before work. And sometimes, I don't have the energy to do it after work. That's what -- AT: Yeah. LB: -- another thing, too. AT: And I think running indoor evening programs are -- right? It's, like, a really good thing to have, too -- LB: Yeah. AT: -- because it's, like, who wants to go home for two hours and then have to come back? LB: Oh, gosh, yeah, that would be horrible. AT: The show starts at seven or eight o'clock at night, so -- LB: Right, right, starting so early and then going all the way until eight o'clock. Now that's you're doing a 12-hour day. So, it's tough. (laughter) Well, it's worked out. I think it's worked out okay but I can see why everybody's changed their hours now that we have these much more flexible hours. There's sort of that core time and then we have the flexible hours. Think that's working well for people. AT: I think so. LB: So, what's the biggest frustration or fear you have or challenge that you've had during this time? I mean, are there -- that are just so frustrating for you? AT: Honestly, other people who don't take this seriously. LB: Yeah. AT: That's my big -- LB: Everyone has said that. AT: -- especially when it's family. Yeah, that's a -- LB: [Grandma?]. AT: Yeah. I do have a brother who -- I have two brothers but they're both, you know, there's no logic behind their statements. You can just tell that they have a lot of friends who think this is a hoax. So, like, you know, they don't do their own research and they don't understand things. So, of course, they're, like, "Yeah, no protesters get it but people at the beach do. This is all a conspiracy." And I'm, like, "Yeah, well, just God forbid one of, like, one of your daughters, one of my nieces or, like, my nephews, one of your kids gets sick with this or something and then you might be singing a different tune." And I don't wish that on anybody. LB: Right, but -- AT: But it's, like, what is it going to take for certain people to, like, just take this serious? This isn't about you anymore. It's not just about the economy. It's about someone's life. And you never know how you contracting this and you spreading this can affect someone else. So, just take it seriously. LB: Yeah. AT: You don't want to wear a mask? Stay at home. LB: Yeah, (laughter) I've always -- I mean, I know I've told you before that in 1918, my grandmother died and she was thirty-two years old at the time. And my father was four and he, then, grew up without a mother and -- because in the flu epidemic of 1918, most people who got it were between the ages of twenty and forty and she was right in the middle of that time. And people would say, well, you know, that's one hundred and two years ago. How does that affect you? And I said, "Well, you think it doesn't affect me to have had a father who didn't have a mother, you know? And who grew up -- his father immediately left to -- went to South America. He was raised by his grandparents, who were quite old. You know, and it affected every minute of his life. He didn't have a mom. And that would affect me. It ultimately affected me, too. In fact, and like people -- most of my friends had two grandmothers. I didn't. I had one. And I could have -- so, that would have certainly have been a possibility and gone through that various different -- the circumstances that one has when you have two grandmothers and you have a father who has [had parents?] -- he wasn't a bad dad but who knows? And I also think now, I'm really strongly believing that she was pregnant when she died because most pregnant women who -- when they -- if pregnant women in 1918 got it, seventy-two percent of them died. AT: Oh, wow. LB: Really affected pregnant women. And other people in her family didn't have it, so I think it's likely. She was the age to have had a kid and I think she was pregnant. So, now, I'm thinking, like, okay, I didn't have, my father didn't have brothers and sisters, so I didn't have cousins, you know? How that affects -- like, I don't have very many cousins. I only have three cousins in the world. You have a million cousins in the world. Literally a million. AT: I'm still meeting them. (laughter) LB: At this very minute you may have a -- AT: There might be one being born right now, I don't even know. LB: Could be happening right now. And that's another thing, too. I think people don't even think about what could be happening to children that were born if their mother or their father had had COVID, maybe asymptomatic. We don't have any idea how that will affect people, so, [all these?]. AT: And, you know, I think, you know, I like to say I think God. But, you know, whoever's in charge up there but -- LB: Yeah. AT: -- my friend who -- she works at St. Luke's. She just had a baby a few weeks ago but she works with COVID patients day in and day out and she did it during -- throughout her full pregnancy. And thankfully, she's, you know, she's never contracted it. She was tested all the time and she's been good. So, that was a blessing. But that's what your story reminds me of and it's, like, you know, regardless if it's 102 years ago or if it's, like, now, you know, family is family and, like, stuff that happens to your grandparents can affect you, [because?] shape or form is because, you know, what happens to them happens to their children and happens to their children's children, you know? Life is tough as it is. LB: Right. AT: Less people doesn't make that equation any easier, so I totally -- I understand what you're saying there. LB: So, like, you always seem like such a normally even-keeled guy. (laughter) You think this is affecting your mental health? AT: I feel like in the beginning it did because I was a little more -- I was on the worried side. But the more, like I said, the more people I had -- were able to talk to -- like, as you know, we had our staff meetings, like, every day. So, I had human interaction at least once a day for at least an hour. I had, you know, my family time on, like, the Zoom calls. I had my -- after everything started getting a little clear -- not in the beginning but as we started to move into, like, the yellow phase where we could be, you know, socially distant, twenty-five people or less, like, in a public space -- I wasn't going to public spaces but I made sure I had my Instacart deliver -- make sure I had my eggs and my bread, my coffee, and my aunt, you know, would come over every once in a while. We would have our coffee on my porch, you know? So, I think finding like-minded individuals who really do take this pandemic seriously, who you can -- and it is a risk. And I hate to say it like that -- who you wouldn't mind risking maybe spending a little bit of time for -- LB: Yes. AT: -- has really made a difference. I couldn't imagine me being somebody who has been -- I've been single for a very, very long time and I live alone. And, yes, I have family but had -- we not been taking those risks, I think if I would have been stuck in this house with just, like, work and a PlayStation, I think I would've went a little crazy. LB: Yeah. AT: I would've been a little stir crazy. I don't like to walk anywhere. You probably would have seen me walking all around the blocks, (laughs) just taking walks with a mask on because, yeah, people -- it's important, especially for those who live alone, like, people like me -- and you have to be safe and if you're going to take a risk, just know your facts, take your precautions. And it's possible to still live in this world but not if you're going to walk around and act like this is a hoax because it's definitely not. LB: Yeah. AT: And so, just something I want to draw home. If you want to take the risks, that's fine. But just make sure you do it responsibly. Make sure you take every precaution possible. LB: Yeah, and the likelihood of people -- I mean, it's so easy to be frustrated at people who will say, "Well, I don't care if I get sick." And you're saying, "Yeah, but you're going to make other people sick." AT: Yeah, and they don't get -- LB: Yeah. AT: That's usually where the [hoax?] line comes in. "Oh, well, I'll be fine if I get sick." Well, okay, what about people you're passing in the grocery store? LB: Right. AT: You know? What about that elderly individual that, you know, had to stand next to you in line and you were playing with your phone and you didn't pay any attention and you're standing, like, really close to them? And, like, what if you, like, sneeze on them or something? LB: Yeah. AT: And now they're dead, you know? Like, I think, like, people don't understand, they don't grasp that concept. Like, they're dead. Somebody can die. Like, this isn't just, like, a regular flu. Like, yes, I know there's flu shots and stuff like that but people are dying. LB: Yeah. AT: And just because it's happening in mass amounts, don't let the charts and the numbers desensitize you into -- caring for other human life, like, that should be your number one priority -- is not only protecting yourself but protecting those that you love and the people that are around you. And even those you don't know. LB: I know. AT: Sorry, I (inaudible) LB: And including -- if you get sick, too, I mean, you're going to seek out healthcare. So, now you're putting all those healthcare workers at risk. AT: Yes, absolutely. LB: And that's a terrible thing. You know, lots of healthcare workers have gotten sick. I know healthcare workers who have been sick. And horribly sick. Just horribly sick and devastatingly sick. It's terrible stuff. AT: I had a cousin who actually contracted COVID and an uncle. They're not in the same home but my aunt -- they worked at a retirement home and my cousin does home care. And she's one of the strongest people I know. Like, if there was anybody to, like -- that I would say could be in, like, a gunfight and take, like, two bullets and just probably, like, still, like, mess everybody up and then make it to the hospital and be okay, it'd be her, you know? And I hate to use that as an analogy but I just need you to understand, like, this -- LB: Yeah. AT: -- my cousin is -- she is a woman of very strong resolve and she's just a tough one. And I got text messages from her and then she was just scared to death. She thought she was going to die because that's how sick she felt. And, yes, it affects everybody differently but her body was, like -- her joints, like, her body, everything hurt. She had a fever, you know? She could -- it was tough. It was real tough. LB: She had -- AT: And then for me to see somebody that tough feel that way, so defeated. I'm, like, oh, my God! LB: Did she have somebody to take care of her? AT: Yeah, she had -- oh, well, she lives -- Her mom, like, her, her mom live in the same place and she has a 10-year-old son. So, mom took over the son and she stayed quarantined in her room and then she just -- she wasn't allowed out. Like, they might as well have put, like, caution tape up. Like, she was not coming out of that room unless she had to bathe or -- and she even went for walks just a little bit because she said just laying there, even though everything hurt, she didn't want to get complicit in just laying there and taking it, because that's the kind of person she is. So, she would go for a little walk every day, which she said really, really helped her but -- and then, you know, as soon as she was cleared with the timeframe -- her symptoms went away. She couldn't taste or smell anything. And she loves her food, so she was really upset about that, too. (laughter) But as soon as she was all clear, they did a thorough, thorough cleaning of, like, the room and thankfully, knock on wood, my aunt and her son never got it. LB: Wow! AT: They were tested and they came out clear. So, they did something right, you know? It's a shame that she had it but it could have just as easily turned into three people having it just because she does home care. LB: No kidding. AT: Yeah. LB: Yeah, I know whole households of people that got it and I also know that -- people who got it who could not have walked. They couldn't have walked. They could barely walk to the bathroom. They had to crawl to the bathroom. AT: Yeah, it hits everybody differently, you know? LB: Yeah, it does. And a lot of people who have died who were by themselves, you know, they couldn't care for themselves. It's not like they could get up and take aspirin or, you know, get up and -- AT: And then, they're saying that there are certain aspirins that you just can't take because it makes it worse. LB: Right, right. AT: Because her headaches -- she suffered through -- her headaches, she said, were the worst at night. Her head just felt, like, huge. It was just, like, constantly pounding, yeah. LB: Oh, that's awful, awful. So, are you scared about getting it? AT: Yes. LB: Yeah. AT: Absolutely. Everyone should be. LB: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, what, of all the stuff that you've been doing, what's the best thing that's been happening? Is there anything -- like, some people will say, "I'm such an introvert, I really love this, I don't have to talk to anybody." (laughs) AT: Well, okay, so I -- see, I do love going out but secretly, I do have a little bit of my father in me. I am a homebody. So, working from home, I think, has been great. So, that's a good distraction for eight hours of my day. I like video games. Some people don't. I enjoy them a lot. It's really easy to, like, get lost in a video game. You feel like you've been playing it for, like, an hour, an hour and a half, and then you look at the clock and it's, like, two in the morning and you have to be up at eight and you're, like, oh, my God! LB: Yeah. AT: And then you're, like, I started at seven o'clock. How did it become two a.m. already? But, yeah, playing some games that I have, just making just normal stuff that I wouldn't have the time for now, like, for myself to enjoy like I do, so -- LB: Ah! AT: -- rhinestoning costumes, you know? Like, masks. (laughs) Little (inaudible) LB: You rhinestoned that yourself? AT: No, but I could. LB: Okay. (laughs) AT: But I don't want to do this. I'd rather do a costume. LB: Yeah. AT: These are the hardest, because they're so small. LB: Oh, yeah! AT: They are very, very small. LB: Cool. AT: So, yeah, there's quite a few stones on there -- LB: [So, I know?] -- AT: -- but just -- LB: -- this is great. AT: But, yeah, you know, just working on costuming, learning new music for whenever we can open back up and not be -- LB: Right. AT: -- as scared of COVID, when we know more, when there's, you know, hopefully a vaccine that we can take for this. I know some people are skeptical and they're anti-vaxxers. But I don't know (inaudible) LB: It's probably hard -- it's hard to imagine how we can stop this -- I just read -- Trish just read a thing that said that if every person in the country wore a mask every single day for the next -- you know, three months, it would be gone. It'd be over. AT: Eradicated. LB: But people won't do that. We can't have [them?] do that. So, the only other way to do it is have almost all the people have vaccines and require the vaccines because, you know, we -- that's how we got rid of polio, that's how we got rid of smallpox, it's how we got rid of most measles. You never hear measles outbreaks anymore. AT: "How dare you ask me to inconvenience myself for three months with a mask, it just" -- LB: I know! AT: -- "it's civil liberties, for crying out loud!" LB: Yeah, like -- and, you know, I have a friend who said -- AT: That was sarcasm, in case nobody caught that in the interview. But I'm just, you know, (laughter) disclaimer. (laughter) LB: Good. One person said, like, "I can't wear a mask." He said, you know, "And that it's not fair that the government makes you wear masks." And she said, "You know, the government makes you wear clothes." AT: (laughs) Yeah. LB: It's, like, really, if you think about it. AT: Oh, yeah! LB: And, in fact, people probably wearing clothes in their house! (laughs) We wouldn't even think about not wearing clothes, even if nobody was going to see us. AT: Right. LB: You get up in the morning and you put on clothes and nobody even thinks about it! AT: And you know what? I thought of, you know, over in China, especially with -- like, you see -- like, I saw it a lot in movies and I had to kind of, like, look into it a little bit. But, you know, and I never realized that, like, in certain areas, the pollution is just so bad that people wear masks to begin with anyway over there. LB: Yeah, yeah. AT: You know what I mean? So, it's just you got to -- tough! Get used to it. You got to do it. LB: Yeah, it's -- AT: You know? LB: -- not that hard. AT: It's not just about you anymore. It's about us. LB: Not really hard. It is like one of the least not hard things you can do. I mean, it's not like saying to people, okay, everybody has to lose twenty pounds, (laughs) you know, or everybody has to, you know, go to college and finish it and pay for it themselves, you know? Nobody's saying that, you know? So, it's so amazing to me that people are so reticent about it. And part of it's political, too. AT: Of course. LB: You know? AT: My favorite are the people who say, "Well, you know, I read online that if I wear the mask, the C02 levels, [that just?] they're really bad for me." And I'm, like, "Okay, so what do you say to the doctors and the nurses who have to wear this sometimes for ten, twelve hour shifts?" LB: Yeah, yeah. AT: "They do this daily, sometimes for weeks at a time without a day off, especially without a day off now because people like you won't wear the mask. How do you think they feel?" LB: That's right, that's right. AT: Oh, gosh, and then they always say -- same people usually post, like, "Oh, I went -- my friend went to the doctor. My friend, like, John went to the doctor and they put their mask on and they put the little thing on and then their CO2 levels, like, skyrocketed and then, like, their blood pressure went up." And it's funny because it's the same exact story but the name always changes. It was John, it was Mary, (laughter) [Sue?]. But everything else is the same except for the name. And I'm, like, yeah, your friend, I'm sure. LB: Yeah, I got to tell you that Trish, we went to -- she had to have, like, a consultation with a specialist doctor today and she -- it was just a check thing and she'd had some tests and she had some lung stuff and they wanted to see how serious it was. And it turned out that it's pretty good. Everything is pretty good. But they wanted to check to be sure that she has enough oxygen in her blood because she's older and stuff like that. So, they make her -- you know, we're both wearing double masks because we're so paranoid. And the doctor was, too. He was wearing two masks. And they're very, very careful there, you know? They test you outside and you can't even get into the building. And then -- AT: The 10 minutes before, right? LB: Yeah, and they -- and, like, I didn't touch the doorknob. I had, like, a Kleenex that I opened the doorknob -- and then, we -- and I threw it away on the way out. And then, they make you wash your -- you know, put stuff on your hands and they take your temperature right away again. And then, they come in and they said -- we went into the room and then they said to Trish she had to walk up and down the hall, this was a test, with one of those things on her finger. She's seventy-five years old, you know, and they were concerned that the number -- meaning that her oxygen level in her blood would go down. They didn't say anything about the mask. And they said, "If it goes below eighty-eight, then we have to try a different thing." And so, she started out at ninety-seven, she's wearing the mask, she walks up and down for six minutes as fast as she can go. And it's at ninety-seven when she starts and when she's done it's at ninety-seven. And she's wearing the mask! (laughter) So, hello? AT: [So, take it to?] John, Mary, Sue, David, whoever your friend's name was (laughter) (inaudible) pasted that into. LB: Yeah. AT: Yeah. LB: So it didn't have anything -- it didn't influence that at all. So, I actually saw this happen. It didn't make her CO2 levels go up higher in her blood, it didn't do anything. And they were specifically testing for that, so -- AT: They're, like, "Oh, you're breathing it back in!" I'm, like, "Well, does your mask fill up like a balloon where the air stays in it? (laughter) Or does it actually escape through the sides? I'm asking for a friend. [That's why I'm here?]." LB: Have you been wearing a plastic bag over your head? (laughs) Stop wearing the -- you know, don't -- AT: [It's like I'm?] -- LB: -- [go to a cheap?] -- AT: -- I have a -- LB: -- plastic bag. (laughs) AT: I think it sounds good initially in some people's minds but then, like, they never replay it back. And it's, like, do you hear yourself -- AUTOMATED VOICE: It's three o'clock. AT: -- and hear what you're saying, like -- oh, it's three -- sorry, that was my computer. LB: That's okay, that's okay. AT: But -- LB: It's so funny because my sister even said some -- one of those things. Like, she said she thought that the -- and she never fussed up like this. And she said she thought the camera in her computer was watching her. And I said, "Well, is it on?" And she said, "No." I said, "Well, come on! I mean, unless you're downloading a bunch of really hacky programs that are -- you know, have you downloaded a lot of programs?" I said, "This is exactly the kind" -- and I said, "Plus, if you have downloaded" -- she said, "So, I'm going to put a piece of tape over it." I said, "Well, you won't be able to do the Zoom then." (laughs) Well -- AT: Yeah, well, I mean, I know some people, they take, like, a clip and they'll cover their camera and then -- LB: I know -- AT: -- when they're done, they'll take the clip out when they're ready to -- LB: I know that they'll do that but the only way that that can happen is that if you have a lot of mal-- like, hacked stuff in your computer. Well, you shouldn't be ignoring that because there's a lot of other stuff that they can get out of your computer that's more than just the picture of you. AT: Yeah. LB: Like, every one of -- you know, your -- all sorts of your accounts and stuff like that. And so, that -- it's kind of like saying, well, I'm going to lock the gate but I'm going to leave the front door open, you know? That kind of stuff, so -- AT: Well, mine turns green when it's on, so I -- LB: Yeah, mine's on, you know? I -- AT: -- can see when it's active. LB: Right. And, yeah, but anyway -- and I'm sure that there are even possibilities of malware that can turn the light off, because apparently they can -- but you have to be doing things that make that happen. AT: Right. LB: I think people who play a lot of games and they're downloading games and different stuff like that, there's a potential for that because you are often -- AT: [I'm off on?] the PlayStation. I'm not playing games on my -- LB: That's right. If they're doing it with their computer, it's different than -- what's your game that you've been playing that's your -- AT: It's very violent. I don't know if I want to tell you. LB: Okay, then don't tell. AT: It's Mortal Kombat. LB: Okay, yeah. AT: Yeah. LB: It's not -- I don't know. AT: It's a very violent game but I -- I don't know. LB: (laughs) Well -- AT: Next question. (laughter) LB: So, here's the next question. Here's the next question. Let's see. And so, I've already asked you. You have people in your family that have had this. AT: Yeah. LB: And [your parents?] -- AT: And something I didn't -- well, if you -- actually, something I can add, since that question just came up, my aunt and uncle, the ones who got it, who are married, my aunt tested positive but she was asymptomatic. And her husband ended up in the hospital for three days. LB: Oh, my gosh, yeah. AT: On a respirator. LB: Yeah. AT: And he's back home and he's okay now but it was touch and go for a minute. And, like I said, they both work in a retirement home, so -- I think he worked in the kitchen and she worked on the floors, like, helping patients. And she was home, fine, and they were, like, "Well, you got to get tested." She's, like, "No, no, no, I feel fine." And they were, like, "No, honey, it doesn't work that way." LB: No kidding! AT: "You could have it." And then she was, like, "Oh, oh, okay." They did the test and, boom, positive. LB: Especially if she's working in a care home. She could wipe out everybody there. AT: Yep. So, she stayed at home, she quarantined, now she's fine. They're both back to work and they're both a lot more careful. (laughs) LB: Well, I wonder if they have antibodies, you know? Some people say that people asymptomatic don't build up a lot of antibodies. But he might have and that could actually make him -- AT: Might have -- LB: -- safer. AT: My cousin, her doctor said that to her. But I hear, like, that's something that a lot of doctors are iffy about. Some will say it without hesitation and the other ones will just say, "Well, we don't know enough about this for that to be true or not yet." Or, you know, so I think it's just, like, a matter of opinion. But I would think, like, with anything, once your body fights something off, it's no stranger to it the second time around, you know? My friend has -- rents out -- Florida, like, of his home. And one of the people who stayed there had COVID and he tested positive. He had to quarantine but then when he came for his follow-up test, he tested positive again. LB: Oh, wow. AT: And the doctor told him it's, like, "What do you wear, like, what are you doing?" He wears -- like, this guy has a fitted hat, so he -- even at home, while he was sick, this guy had the fitted hat on and he's thinking, like, oh, this will help me sweat everything out. Well, he never washed the hat correctly afterwards so, like, all that, like, sweat and stuff, he was just re-infecting himself every day with, like, the sweat from his cap. So, it was weird, yeah. LB: Yeah. AT: And, you know, of course, me, I don't wear hats so I'm, like, why'd you have a hat in the house? Like, (laughter) are you that into fashion that you were sick, nobody was going to see you, and you've been -- like, you're so used to having a hat that you had to put it on, like, while you were home? Like, I don't know, it's weird. LB: Well, it sort of makes you wonder about the whole level of hygiene, too -- AT: Yeah, yeah. LB: -- happening while he was there. You went on a trip. You went to California-- or to Florida. AT: I did go to Florida, yes. LB: And what was that like? What's it like in the airport? AT: It was okay. I was a little nervous. I was under the assumption that the flights would be only flown at, like, certain capacity. That flight was entirely full. LB: Whoa! AT: The lady next to me was not wearing a mask and, at that time, it wasn't mandatory. LB: Oh, gracious. AT: So, the flight attendants could ask you to put your mask on but they weren't enforcers so they couldn't force you to wear your mask at that time because it wasn't like it is now, even though it should have been. LB: Yeah. AT: There should have been -- I think we could all agree that this should've been handled in a better way back in January and February. But, you know, it was a hoax. But anyway, I digress. So, it was scary to me because not only was the plane full, the person next to me didn't have a mask on, and she insisted that she talk to me almost the entire flight. LB: Oh, gosh, oh! AT: And, you know, I'm a nice person so I'm just, oh, my God, this lady's going to get me sick, you know? And then, my nerves were wrecked, so I knew that the luggage wouldn't come out right away. It never comes -- like, there's no way you beat -- like, your luggage beats you to the carousel when you get off a plane. No matter how long it takes to get off that plane, like, your luggage just takes -- it feels like it takes forever. So, I went outside when I got there, just to kind of, like, be away from everybody and to keep an eye on the train. And these two women came out and they asked for a lighter because they wanted to have a cigarette. And so, they started talking and she, the one lady, goes, "Oh, I'm so happy to be here." And I said, "Oh, do you have family here?" And she says, "No, I -- these roots are terrible. I came down here because this is one of the only places that, like, they're doing hair." She went down there -- she took a whole flight, full of people, to get her hair done. LB: Oh, my goodness. AT: And then, the other lady, who she doesn't know, says, "Oh, my gosh, same! Only I came for a pedi." LB: Oh, my gosh! AT: And -- LB: Oh, my -- AT: -- there I stand. And I'm, like, just, good for you. LB: Holy crap. AT: Good for you, you know? Yeah, so I got my luggage and I got in my rental car and I left. (laughs) LB: Oh my gosh. AT: Yeah. LB: (inaudible) AT: It was -- down there, I feel like it was very willy-nilly. People were acting like it wasn't a thing. LB: Yeah. AT: They had, like, outdoor seating and stuff like that but it's just so hot in Florida that they weren't -- and they had the set-up. Let's say they were dressed for the part but not everybody was onstage. LB: Okay, yeah. AT: You know? LB: Yeah. AT: Stores were open, people were still shopping in stores. Like, Burlington was open and, you know, like, all that stuff. LB: But they had fifteen thousand new cases yesterday in Florida. AT: In one day? LB: In one day. I saw the thing and I thought that was how many cases they had in the state now for everything, because they had had a pretty small number. Yeah, they had, like, four thousand, something like that. And I'm, like, wow, fifteen thousand. And then, it says for today. AT: Yeah. LB: Was one day! They have five hundred thousand cases. They have half a million cases in Florida and they're still acting like it's not -- you know, their governor and everything [is a?] -- AT: They opened the bars for, like, one weekend. I think the weekend after I left, they were reopening, like, bars and that lasted, like, one weekend because they -- LB: Yeah. AT: -- like, you know, cases -- LB: And it -- AT: -- just started running rampant and people are, like, "Oh, well it was only a week ago." And it's, like, yeah, well, these people had it two weeks ago. LB: Right. AT: Like, (inaudible) LB: The hospitals are full there. And then, the governor is saying they're not and the people who are the heads of the hospitals saying, "Yes, they are! We don't have any more beds!" Come on, you know? People are going to die from this. It's crazy. AT: How frustrating must it be to be a healthcare professional -- LB: Yeah. AT: -- in this field right now. And you give the hardcore facts and you give the numbers and you give the data but somebody at the top just spins it, you know? LB: Right. AT: Like, you do everything, like, and you know what you're supposed to be doing. You're very well educated. You know what this is doing to people. You know how to get in front of it by being safe, at least, and they turn it into this, like, just political thing just so that people can not worry about it so that they continue to shop and so our economy stays intact. Like, I just don't get it. LB: Well, it's not a very attractive thing to see the kinds of cases they're having in Florida. And I think in the long run, it's going to destroy -- I mean, we can't -- Trish and I are talking about not being able to go back there for years. AT: I know. LB: And what are we going to do? We can't go there if -- and there's no end in sight. It's not going to end until there's, like, a mandatory vaccination. LB: Right. AT: Because -- or until we can be vaccinated. You know, if we're vaccinated, that means that then we don't have to worry if they really have a successful vaccine. But it takes a while to get a good vaccine. Course, the flip side of that -- that every single epidemiologist in the world is working on this. So, it's not quite like AIDS where nobody worked at it at all for the first three years that it was even -- existed. So, we're coming to the end of this. So, let me ask you one more question, because we're talking about -- I'm asking everybody about all the things that are happening now and a lot of other things are happening at the same time as COVID and we can't really separate that. So, I want to talk to you about Black Lives Matter and see -- you want to talk a little bit about that and what's happening in Allentown right now and what's happening in the United States right now and if you want to say anything about that. AT: Yeah, I definitely -- I know, in Allentown, a friend of mine who I'm very, very proud of, Justin Parker, has been leading efforts and protests. I have been to -- I did go to one protest but because of social distancing, I've been trying to stay a little bit away. I feel like I've already taken, like, a lot of risks when it comes to seeing family and traveling and doing -- like, I just did that show. So, it's, like, I don't feel that it would be responsible of me to actually be there unless, like, I actually had to be there. But please make no mistake, I am in full support of this movement. I'm very, very proud of my friend. And I've had quite the entanglement with some friends' parents over this online, you know? Public battles with them, just trying to explain to them the simplicity of why -- while, although you believe all life matters to be true, that you saying this at this moment in time is wrong. LB: Yeah. AT: So, that's been, like, arguing with a wall. But I don't like to troll people too much because I feel like to change someone's mind sometimes is not the easiest thing. So, it needs to come in the right form. So, random people, I don't entangle myself with too much. But when it's somebody I care about and somebody that, like, was an influence in my life and I see them kind of going in that direction, I kind of feel a little more inclined to, like, speak up about it. LB: Yeah. AT: People are hardheaded, you know? And I think the more of us who just band together and make ourselves known that we stand in solidarity and we support the protests, even if we help behind the scenes with organizing and, like, even if you can't make the protest, dropping off some water, dropping off -- you know, donating to the right people to make sure that there are certain things -- I believe that one of them, they were able to raise some -- a little bit of money, enough to, like, even feed some of the kids with, like, pizza and stuff that was, like, there -- safely, of course, everybody wearing, like, the proper stuff. But -- LB: Sure. AT: -- there are so many ways to support the movement and I, for one, am one of them. So, I hope everyone wakes up and they realize that this is just as dangerous as a global pandemic. If not a -- LB: Yeah, it's true. AT: -- United States pandemic, especially -- as COVID is. It's just as dangerous, to me, because stupidity is contagious. LB: Yeah. AT: I'll just say it like that. I mean, it's the end of the interview at this point. Let's skip the pleasantries. But, yeah, to close, I am very, very proud of my friend and I am a supporter of Black Lives Matter and I think we need to take it just as seriously as COVID-19. And the sooner people band together and people can start agreeing on what needs to be done and being comfortable with uncomfortable conversations -- is the only way that we're going to see any progress in either front. LB: Yeah, yeah, okay. AT: Because I could go on for hours but this is the end of the interview, so we're just going to leave it there. LB: I'm thinking, yeah, you know, I would let you go on for hours but I know you have to do work. (laughs) AT: I do! (laughs) LB: Yeah, and I don't want to be the one who's making you not do that stuff. So, I'm going to turn this off. I want to just thank you very, very much for doing this. It's been terrific. You're so animated, you're fun, and I loved getting to spend an hour talking to you because I don't -- AT: Yeah. LB: -- get as much time to talk to you now -- AT: I know! LB: -- and not having meetings every day and stuff. So, it's so fun to see you. AT: [Good to see you too?]. LB: And I'm going to turn off the recording now. We'll talk -- END OF AUDIO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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01:01:57
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Ariel Torres, July 14, 2020
Description
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Ariel talks about how the current COVID-19 pandemic is affecting him, his friends and his family, his work on the Pride Festival and other projects at Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center. He also talks about traveling, not being able to do his second job as a nationally known drag performer, his daily routine, and Black Lives Matter issues.
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PH40_10
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
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2020-07-14
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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https://lgbt.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/2422813085b101f5fb0a678498bcf0f9.png
b04191112d69b200594051d0d3d519ef
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
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In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Liz Bradbury
Interviewee
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Lizabeth Kleintop
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_17.xml
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5.4 July 21, 2020 Lizabeth Kleintop, July 21, 2020 PH40_17 00:59:10 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Lizabeth Kleintop Liz Bradbury video/mpeg KleintopLizabeth_20200721_video.mp4 1.0:|21(8)|48(2)|73(10)|106(6)|135(7)|160(8)|183(3)|206(13)|229(6)|250(16)|273(11)|288(3)|311(12)|342(7)|363(9)|384(13)|407(12)|432(7)|453(2)|480(3)|503(14)|524(15)|543(8)|566(10)|591(2)|608(11)|637(3)|660(14)|683(2)|708(4)|729(8)|750(13)|771(12)|794(3)|817(10)|840(4)|865(3)|890(5)|911(13)|934(5)|951(2)|970(14)|993(3)|1014(10)|1035(18)|1054(12)|1077(4)|1100(5)|1129(9)|1152(10)|1175(2)|1210(6)|1239(12)|1276(2)|1307(13)|1326(11)|1353(4)|1386(6)|1435(4)|1450(5) 0 https://youtu.be/DAZ7q0BHlWk YouTube video 0 Interview Introduction LB: [...] With this project, Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center in the Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh LGBT community, collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences, from HIV-AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury, and I am here with Lizabeth Kleintop to talk about her experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of COVID-19 pandemic as a part of the Lehigh community LGBT Community Archives. 0 262 Lizabeth's position at Moravian University/Discussing new presentation software LB: Oh, so tell us about what your job is then.
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 ; LK: Yeah, I’m a member of the faculty and a director of assessment and accreditation in the economics and business department at Moravian College. I teach largely in the graduate program in change management, human resources management, and analytics.
 ; 0 413 Teaching online for the foreseeable future LK: But it looks, as I said to you before, was that, my guess is that we will still be doing it in Spring, we’re not going to have a widely available vaccine until then. So really I’m developing in the work I’ve done this summer is almost redeveloping my course where it’s fully online, from blended formant, and it’s a time consuming process. I have a course going on right now which is not as detailed, because the students are working on a project, a capstone project, almost a thesis. 0 823 Working virtually LK: Well I’ve been working through, and largely working on classes. I’m teaching one now, I’m developing my fall classes, getting ready to go. So it’s been largely focused on classes and that kind of work. 0 938 Moravian students' thoughts on online school LB: Are you hearing from students, with regard to how they feel about the potential of a year or two, or a year without direct contact? Are you getting anything from students about that?
 ; 
 ; LK: A little bit here and there. I have a few undergraduate advisees, and I picked up that it’s somewhat of a mixed bag from what I’ve talked with them about when we Zoom. And some of them are not particularly happy that they may still be online, because some of them are stuck in a situation where they don’t -- even in Palmerton for that matter, where their high-speed internet is somewhat iffy at times. 0 1061 Furloughs at Moravian University/Capital projects on campus LK: There were furloughs now. And I know some people were furloughed and then brought back and people who were there on campus were then furloughed to be brought back again. The college is, as an employer and as a whole -- well I guess many employers do have different structures in terms of employment. There are people like myself who are on a twelve year contract, for instance. You’ve got people who are ten-month contracts as faculty, but also staff. 0 1297 Staying in contact with daughter, sister, and mother LK: Meh. Not so much family. My daughter and I, every other week or so we chat a little bit while one of us, usually her, is on a walk. (inaudible) my sister. I see my mother ; my mother is in independent living at Luther Crest. And she doesn’t have a car, so I became her Uber, her Grub Hub, and her medical transport. 0 1458 Concerns for self and LGBTQ community/Executive order attempting to ban trans people from homeless shelters LK: [...] Just the virus itself, you know. I’m sixty-four, so I’m getting up there, I’m a type-two diabetic. I don’t control it with insulin, thank heavens. I walk a lot and watch what I eat. But there’s a risk there for me for it. So personally there’s some concern there, and I’m concerned that we’re not controlling it. We have the politicization of the whole thing about masks. I have four of them, personally. (laughter) Including one I made myself, by hand, no sewing machine, which is kind of a miracle. Black Lives Matter, it’s all really fed, a really turbulent time in this household. I mean [federal administration?] is really taking advantage of the pandemic, trying to push through executive orders, to the detriment of the LGBT community. 0 1675 Major job loss during the pandemic LB: Apparently the statistic is, again for future generations to hear this, that fifty million people have lost their jobs. So that’s a very significant thing when we’re talking about that stuff, and people who have their jobs --
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 ; LK: And it hasn’t been distributed evenly across the population either, across the labor force. Most of those 50 million people who have lost their jobs are people who are in the service sector. 0 1740 Thoughts on Dr. Rachel Levine and Governor Tom Wolf LB: Yeah. You’ve met Dr. Levine, right?
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 ; LK: Yes, I have. And the governor as well. I think they both handled it very well, putting up with a lot of bologna. I’m being polite, because this is for the future. (laughs) Dr. Levine has just handled everything very professionally, quietly, calmly, and even through loads and loads of disrespect, including what happened at Bloomsburg Fair, apparently in the dunking tank. Which is horrible, it’s absolutely abhorrent. And so I think we’re lucky to have her, and the governor, because they really kept focus. 0 1940 Interacting with trans and queer people on Twitter/Using Facebook LK: Yeah, you know I’m not a big fan of the dating apps. They haven’t really worked well for me, so eh. (laughs) But I have spent a lot of time on Twitter though. That’s been very interesting actually, through the pandemic. I’ve spent more time, we’re on Facebook together. 0 2092 JK Rowling's anti-trans views/Britain's pandemic protocols LB: And we know people, we both know people who are transgender who were so committed to Harry Potter, that any kind of dress-up would never go by where they weren’t wearing their Harry Potter outfits. Now that’s totally gone. And I think that the legacy of these books is over, it’s absolutely over. I think people are taking them out of the library, it’s amazing. Book stores (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible)
 ; 
 ; LK: Book sales, for instance, hard book sales have actually increased because of the pandemic. People are buying them online and getting them shipped. But Harry Potter books have not. Their increase has been relatively small compared to the larger increase in sale of books overall. 
 ; 0 2274 Grocery shopping LK: I’ve been to the grocery stores, to Wegmans and Giants, Giants for my mother. I’ve been to CVS to pick some stuff up, but up though the driveway. When I had to pick up a prescription, I go to Hartselle’s Pharmacy, (inaudible) for my hormone prescription since it’s compounded I’ve been there. I’ve been to [Fred’s place?] once, and two weeks ago I went and got my hair done. That’s been it.
 ; 0 2373 Attending online Zoom conferences/events LK: Well conference wise, only two. A professional one with our accreditor. And I have another one of those coming up in Academy Management that I’ll probably go to. And I’ve done a couple things with the center. We had the one session on the book review with the author on the queering of corporate America, I went to. And I went to one or two things on Renaissance with Amazon -- with Amazon, with Zoom, here. 0 2468 Young trans people dealing with coming out LK: No. But in Twitter, the feed that shows up, what’s interesting is that there are some people, they’re younger, they tend to be. They work, they live alone. And essentially they consider themselves to be out. They’ve been at home now since March, whether they’re working from home or whatever. 0 2590 Piecemeal approaches to inclusion at the institutional level/Systemic organizational issues LB: So what’s the biggest frustration or the biggest challenge you’ve had to come into contact with?
 ; 
 ; LK: It’s interesting in many ways. We’ve been doing some work with the college in terms of response to Black Lives Matter. Frankly it kind of drives me nuts because it’s so episodic. Something happens, the world goes nuts, well we have to address this, and they take this very narrow focus. And they talk about it really at institutional levels, but we’re talking structural stigmatization issues and the like, and then everybody goes through it, and says okay we’ve done it, and then they walk away. 0 3036 Mental health during the pandemic LB: So, in general, do you feel your mental health is pretty good during this stuff? You're doing pretty well but I can see how there's also frustrations and stuff. What's the hardest thing you've experienced so far? [I think?] --
 ; 
 ; LK: [Yeah?] (inaudible) (laughter) truthfully, the hardest thing so far has been dealing with, you know, the frustrations, the anxieties, the fears of Black Lives Matters and the intersections of that. 0 3103 Knowing someone contracted Covid-19 LK: Yeah. I had a grad student who was ill. But, you know, yeah, she and her husband both were, you know, had -- went to the emergency rooms, got diagnosis and all. And so, they were self-quarantined at home by themselves. 0 3215 Thoughts for the future/2020 presidential election LK: Well, I wish they would, you know, send me a message so I would know what happens in November. I need to know if I'm going to move to Canada or not, you know?
 ; 
 ; LB: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; LK: (laughs) It's kind of sort of funny in a way that when I was just entering college, way back when, Vietnam War was on and people were going, some people were going to Canada and avoid the draft. Now I'm talking about going to Canada to avoid Donald Trump if he gets reelected. And God, I hope not. 
 ; 0 3499 Conclusion LB: Anyway, it's been great to talk to you. Thank you so much for talking to me.
 ; 
 ; LK: [Yeah?].
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 ; LB: It's been -- always --
 ; 
 ; LK: You're welcome.
 ; 0 MovingImage Lizabeth Kleintop talks about how the current COVID-19 pandemic is affecting her as a professor at a local college, how teaching online is progressing and what Moravian College may do in the next few semesters. She also talks about her experience as a Transgender woman and how she is communicating with other Trans people and the concerns she has regarding the institutional transphobia that is being put forth by the current presidential administration and culture. Lizabeth Kleintop2020-07-21 LIZABETH KLEINTOP: Come to understand, with doing online teaching and as you create videos, and even other material, with the cost of creation, there's a shelf life of that course in essence. And the problem with that is, at least in business, so much changes that in another year, you want to update the course. Because of the cost, that's not being done. So it's going to have this impact on learning that's going to be a bit strange, because it won't be like I do a lecture every time, and basically the same stuff, as you're saying. But you add material to it as you go along because of new knowledge, new learning, new circumstances. LIZ BRADBURY: All for all my trainings, because of the Supreme Court Bostock thing, everything has to be updated with regard to that because we actually thought that that wasn't going to come out that way, and so we were back-tracking a little bit on what the state was saying. And now I have to upgrade that. But then there's some [HUD?] things that Trump has just done, which influenced some of those things, too. Although I think in the long run that's not going to fly, but we will see what happens with that. So okay, I have (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible). Well let me say this first, and then we can talk about stuff. So I have to say this. With this project, Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center in the Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh LGBT community, collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences, from HIV-AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury, and I am here with Lizabeth Kleintop to talk about her experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of COVID-19 pandemic as a part of the Lehigh community LGBT Community Archives. Today is Tuesday, July 21st, 2020. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start, can you please state your full name and spell it for me. LK: My full name is Lizabeth Kay Kleintop. L-I-Z-A-B-E-T-H K-A-Y K-L-E-I-N-T-O-P. LB: Will you please share your birthdate? LK: Must I? Oh, no. LB: You don't have to, you don't have to, and I've told three other people that they didn't have to. LK: Oh, I really don't care. LB: Okay. LK: I'm sixty-four, November 6th, 1955. I'll be sixty-five in November. LB: Do you consent to this -- this is the consent portion. So do you consent to this interview today? LK: Yes. LB: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable format? LK: Yes. LB: Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats, including films, articles, websites, presentations, and other formats we may not even know about today? LK: Absolutely. They can have a great time with it. LB: Oh, cool, okay. And do you understand that you will have thirty days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview, identify any parts you'd like to delete, and/or withdraw your interview from the project? LK: Yes, I do. LB: I forgot to ask you what town you're in? Are you in Bethlehem? LK: Bethlehem. LB: Okay. What is your zip code there? LK: 18017. LB: Okay, and the next question is, what is your age, and you already said you were sixty-four. How do you identify within the LGBT community? LK: Transgender lesbian with preferred pronouns of she, her, and hers. LB: Okay, great. So I sent you this list of things that we can talk about. What we were just talking about, some interesting -- and this is part of it, some of the stuff about how classes are going to go because of your involvement at Moravian College, you're a dean at Moravian College. And so, you were talking about -- LK: -- I'm not the dean. LB: Oh, so tell us about what your job is then. LK: Yeah, I'm a member of the faculty and a director of assessment and accreditation in the economics and business department at Moravian College. I teach largely in the graduate program in change management, human resources management, and analytics. LB: Okay. Good, okay. And so we were just talking about online teaching and different kinds of ways of doing presentations, and you were talking about some new software, but finish what you were saying, because that was so interesting. LK: About Mm-hmm? LB: Yeah. LK: I know that's kind of odd of a name, but that's the way they have it. Yeah, it's really software, it's in beta right now, and it's a software which I got used to the whole concept of the weather person on television pointing. But they're really pointing on a green screen, and they're overlaying the video of the maps and everything else. But this kind of brings that whole concept into play right on your laptop. So you can take a PowerPoint presentation, for instance, and instead of just talking over it, or maybe having your head show up in a corner if you're zooming along, this software allows you to actually move yourself around the screen, make yourself bigger or smaller, have the presentation over your shoulder so you can point to it if you're off in the corner. So it tends to be a little more animated than you would have in a normal presentation, kind of thing. So you can record that, create is as an .mp4, for instance. Or you can actually push it right through Zoom, or other tools to get it out there in the world and record it. It's actually kind of cool that some of these new tools are showing up, just at the right time when we need it. LB: And I think you were talking too, about for faculty who are not going to be able to present programs in person, which is likely, and you were saying it was likely for the next year, that that would probably be the case from now. I think so too. LK: In March, all of a sudden, everything kind of shut down, of course with the COVID-19 pandemic. And it was kind of an abrupt stop, everything must go up online. Now, I've been doing online work since the mid-1990s, so it wasn't a big issue for me as it is for some of my colleagues. But it looks, as I said to you before, was that, my guess is that we will still be doing it in Spring, we're not going to have a widely available vaccine until then. So really I'm developing in the work I've done this summer is almost redeveloping my course where it's fully online, from blended formant, and it's a time consuming process. I have a course going on right now which is not as detailed, because the students are working on a project, a capstone project, almost a thesis. So I don't have to do a lot in that sense. It still took me sixty hours of work, at least, in Canvas, our LMS, to get it all set and ready to go. So my fall classes are going to be even longer, although I've gotten a head start on some of that. And the costs of putting all of that in place is very high. And so it doesn't get changed the way it should every time you offer your class in a normal format, lecture format, or in-person format, if you would. I mean I would change a lecture every semester because I learn something new, or something didn't work quite as well with the students, or we're headed in slightly new directions, but you can't do that as easily online, without discarding whole modules of work. So it's going to be a really interesting change in that way for the higher ed community too, because of the virus. LB: Yeah, it's certainly true, I think too, and I know this when I'm doing trainings that if what I'm doing is Zoom training, and I can't see the audience, I can't tell as well whether they're getting it, you know? Often you have to (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible). Yeah, is that working okay for you? LK: Well I've done one already with the nursing department, and I have another coming up next week with the nursing students to talk about transgender community and healthcare issues. And it's much more difficult to tell if they're really paying attention out there in the world, or even have questions. I still get fewer questions that way, even if I try to stop. And when I'm invited in, I'm invited in to talk, not so much really take over the whole class and teach it. Some things that help, I've noticed in classes that I've done, and Zoom supports this, is to do breakout groups so that you can come up with a -- you know, if you're doing training, and maybe doing something with implicit bias, have everybody do an IAT beforehand, and then put them into small groups so they can talk about their IAT and their findings and what they think it could mean, and bring that back to the larger group. I think that helps somewhat. It also allows you to pop in as the facilitator or instructor, with each group and see what they're doing too. LB: Tell us what an IAT is. LK: Pardon me? Oh, IAT is the -- it's an implicit bias test, so specifically called, when Google decides to show up, Implicit Association Test is the formal name for it. And it's a fairly reliable and valid way of testing someone's internal mental biases. It's not really good at predicting how you're going to behave, but it works in larger groups, and it helps surface at least some things that you should pay attention to and reflect on. LB: Yeah, well that's good. And it's a discussion started, certainly. LK: Oh, yes. In some cases it's a discussion ender. LB: [laughs] I can understand that, I really can. So let's get back to the more specific COVID, although this stuff is really right on, because we're talking absolutely about how we're going to do what we've always been doing, how we're doing these things in this new way. So many people thought -- many people thought, not me, and probably not you, but thought that we were going to be done with this by now. And there's no way that we're going to be done with this for a long time. So we have to talk about new ways of doing things. And a number of people are also talking about how it is going to be to integrate us all back into human contact, and how it's going to be tricky to do that, because I'm sort of getting used to not being around people. When I wake up in the morning, I think, "no, I don't have to go to work, I'm just here." It's not like this whole process of doing that. I work hard. I'm working harder than I have before, I think, but it's different. LK: And we all have our Zoom shirts now, so, you know, we're good. LB: So who's at home with you? Are you by yourself where you are, pretty much? Or you have other people there that you're seeing regularly, or what do you do? What's your deal? LK: My cat, [Sirius?]. Actually, my grandcat. He is my daughter's cat, and I keep telling her that, but somehow he lives here with me. But no people, just the neighbors. LB: Okay, so it's you. And so -- LK: -- Just me. LB: Have you been working all the way through? Did you have time off? Or as an administrator have you just been working all the way through from home or remotely? LK: Well I've been working through, and largely working on classes. I'm teaching one now, I'm developing my fall classes, getting ready to go. So it's been largely focused on classes and that kind of work. I have done a ton of webinars, I've been to one virtual conference, I've got another one coming up I think I'm going to go to. I've been prepping some talks with other classes and groups, I've been doing my research, so yeah kind of been working anyhow. But pacing myself. LB: Sure. When things closed down in March, did you have to suddenly shuffle things around, and did everyone at the campus have to shuffle things around? Since you're a person who really understands IT, were people all coming to you and saying I don't know how to do this, and to be able to teach the rest of the -- LK: -- Yeah we had some (inaudible) In the department we had set up a number of meetings of faculty as a group to get together, and those were the faculty who were less experienced with using the technology, particularly the learning management system and the video systems, and wanted to learn about them. We'd get together in a Zoom meeting just casually and ask questions, and do this, that, and the other thing. And actually colleges are fairly good at setting up training programs in Spring and now through the Summer to support the faculty to get things together. So that's been very helpful for faculty that needed it. LB: Are you hearing from students, with regard to how they feel about the potential of a year or two, or a year without direct contact? Are you getting anything from students about that? LK: A little bit here and there. I have a few undergraduate advisees, and I picked up that it's somewhat of a mixed bag from what I've talked with them about when we Zoom. And some of them are not particularly happy that they may still be online, because some of them are stuck in a situation where they don't -- even in Palmerton for that matter, where their high-speed internet is somewhat iffy at times. But there are still some students who are also in a situation where they're not necessarily looking for (inaudible) we say of a regular classroom course. They're actually looking to go online, and they're building their schedules that way as undergrads. The grad students, you know they are working for the most part. So for them, it's almost easier for them to go online. So most of them really preferred at least some face to face time contact in a classroom. They seem to learn better that way. So even my online versions of class are really somewhat blended format, because I do still structure them with having maybe ninety minutes of online synchronously every week so we get to talk to each other. We go over issues like the class now in their thesis, we get together and I have them update the whole class on what they're doing, and their project, any questions and issues, and things like that that are going on. So everybody has some contact at least, and I think that's pretty important. LB: Yeah, sounds great. Good for you. So what about other people in your life? Well, let me ask you this first. Has there been layoffs at the college? I forgot to ask other people that. LK: There were furloughs now. And I know some people were furloughed and then brought back and people who were there on campus were then furloughed to be brought back again. The college is, as an employer and as a whole -- well I guess many employers do have different structures in terms of employment. There are people like myself who are on a twelve year contract, for instance. You've got people who are ten-month contracts as faculty, but also staff. And not all staff are on twelve month all year round at the college. Some are ten months then two off. So the college made the decision early on that people who would benefit by the additional six hundred dollars, same or get a bit more money, they were the ones who were furloughed first. So in terms of monetary income, they weren't really hurt by it. It's still quite down though, because buildings are empty, (inaudible) but some of the facilities crews are still working away and they've still been doing capital projects on campus. LB: Yeah. Yeah, capital projects... I was just saying to Trish, so, have they finished the Tilghman Street Bridge? Because for Heaven's sakes, I mean it's not like they have to be dealing with traffic. It's sort of an unimpeded work time, so I don't -- LK: -- One would think. LB: Maybe in the future, people may not know that people who were working construction, they just continued to work. There really wasn't any circumstance where they -- they were considered essential workers and construction projects have just gone on. So literally you could -- I've hardly been downtown at all. Once in a while I'll go down and go, "look, that building is done now." And then I don't realize how long it has been. In fact we just had one employee on Slack say they'd seen another employee in person for the first time since March. "I just saw Katie for the first time since March." So it's remarkable. And I don't think about that. LK: Well I walked every day ; I let my Apple watch and did circles for the health (inaudible) for exercise. I've been walking every day to close all those circles. So I've been able to get up, cross campus for instance as part of my walks to see the work that's been going on on campus and the like. And I get to downtown and see what the streets look like that are blocked off and set up for outdoor dining kind of things, as well as in other areas of the city, I do that. I must admit I worry about the squirrels on campus, because without people around, are they getting enough food? They got used to people. LB: Apparently that's a thing about cats, particularly in big cities, about cats and bad things like rats. Because there wasn't as much restaurant food, because people weren't eating in restaurants, and everyone who eats in a restaurant, if they don't eat something they just throw it away. So it was feeding all these cats and stuff, and now all these cats and other things are really aggressive in the city, because it's really affecting them. You don't even really think about the [applications?] of that. So I bet the squirrels are pissed. Squirrels have to eat, for Heaven's sakes. So are you communicating with other pals and friends and families by phone or video chat more than you normally would, and stuff like that, do you think? LK: Meh. Not so much family. My daughter and I, every other week or so we chat a little bit while one of us, usually her, is on a walk. (inaudible) my sister. I see my mother ; my mother is in independent living at Luther Crest. And she doesn't have a car, so I became her Uber, her Grub Hub, and her medical transport. So I've had contact with her every other week for a while. Finally it's to every week, and I've been allowing her to go to the grocery store with me. LB: She's in independent living, which means she has an apartment, so she can come out to you, but I would guess that in the assisted living they're not letting people in to visit. LK: No, they're not. And I know some of those programs have been totally off limits, even during the green time for visitors. And Luther Crest has taken the point, well if you're in independent living, you're "independent." But I've tended to be a little more conservative, because she does talk to people and get to walk throughout the hallways and everything else still. They just don't congregate. And given her age and everything, it's a bit of a risk. LB: I was talking to Steve Ziminsky yesterday, whose roommate, [Liam?], is in Manor Care now, which is another assisted living and nursing home. He's actually in the nursing home. And Manor Care which is (inaudible) has one hundred people had COVID-19 there -- one hundred people within the space, including employees, too. And he had it. I mean, everybody had it. I think everybody had it there. I don't think they're making that public, but I think every single person that lived in that care facility had COVID. And they either died or they made it through. But apparently it was a terrible situation. Well that's great, it would be terrible if you didn't get to see your mother. It would be so hard for her too, I'm sure. She's used to seeing you. What's your biggest concern during the pandemic, including your biggest concern for the LGBTQ population? What do you think about that? But just in general, and then, you know... LK: Yeah, this one can take me on a roll. LB: Go ahead! LK: Of course, just the virus itself, you know. I'm sixty-four, so I'm getting up there, I'm a type-two diabetic. I don't control it with insulin, thank heavens. I walk a lot and watch what I eat. But there's a risk there for me for it. So personally there's some concern there, and I'm concerned that we're not controlling it. We have the politicization of the whole thing about masks. I have four of them, personally. (laughter) Including one I made myself, by hand, no sewing machine, which is kind of a miracle. Black Lives Matter, it's all really fed, a really turbulent time in this household. I mean [federal administration?] is really taking advantage of the pandemic, trying to push through executive orders, to the detriment of the LGBT community. The latest one we talked about earlier with HUD and homeless shelters. The push basically to exclude transgender people. So the way they're going about it, it's like, well if you look at them, you can tell who is transgender. LB: I just read the rules. LK: Yeah. LB: Tell what that is, so that people in the future can know, what the rule is. Basically, it's so unbelievable. LK: They say that you can tell when you look at them. If they have an Adam's apple, you can tell if it's a transgender or not, but if they're tall, big feet and big hands. It's like, really? LB: And then, the second level of the rule is that if you suspect that they might be transgender, they have to prove their gender biologically. Well how do they do that? LK: But according to what I've read, they can't ask you to disrobe and show your parts to do it. It's totally crazy, I can't see a judge actually saying, oh yeah that's okay, go for it. LB: I know, so bizarre. And talk about blatant discrimination based on sex, it's blatant sex discrimination. LK: Absolutely. So those are huge concerns for the community overall. And not just the transgender community, but those could easily leak into the lesbian, gay, bisexual, queer community as well. Particularly with non-binary queer people will have some really interesting times if they need to get shelter, and many do. The 600 dollars disappears for people who have been on unemployment at the end of this month, that goes kaput. And a lot of people have a lot of concerns about people not being able to make their rent, they're going to be evicted, and that is just going to put a huge demand on the homeless shelters. We're not ready for it. LB: Apparently the statistic is, again for future generations to hear this, that fifty million people have lost their jobs. So that's a very significant thing when we're talking about that stuff, and people who have their jobs -- LK: And it hasn't been distributed evenly across the population either, across the labor force. Most of those 50 million people who have lost their jobs are people who are in the service sector. And those are jobs which are less well paid than the rest of the world. We're talking to people working in restaurants, the toll there has been horrible. We're talking about people working in brick and mortar stores and the like. So it's been really tough for them, and it's not going to get any easier. And there's just no -- you can't just go pick up a job, oh yeah I'm going to be a welder. No, you need training first. I'm going to drive a truck. No, that doesn't work either, you need training. Unlike some in our (inaudible). LB: We like to ask everybody this, because we're lucky in the state of Pennsylvania, that we have pretty good leadership at the state level, and we have wonderful leadership with regard to our secretary of health. So talk about that, because we want to prop that up. LK: Dr. Levine! LB: Yeah. You've met Dr. Levine, right? LK: Yes, I have. And the governor as well. I think they both handled it very well, putting up with a lot of bologna. I'm being polite, because this is for the future. (laughs) Dr. Levine has just handled everything very professionally, quietly, calmly, and even through loads and loads of disrespect, including what happened at Bloomsburg Fair, apparently in the dunking tank. Which is horrible, it's absolutely abhorrent. And so I think we're lucky to have her, and the governor, because they really kept focus. They've been deliberate whereas some have not, and we're seeing the results of that, particularly down in Florida and Texas and Arizona and even to some degree California. So I think it's been good for Pennsylvania to have both Dr. Levine and Governor Wolf there. It's an important time to have a level head to deal with this pandemic. I really think it's a matter of control. We need to get it to some semblance of control. We can do that with masks, for instance, until we get a vaccine that will work. And who knows how long that's going to be? I know the trials so far, some cases are going well, but there's a billion people plus on this planet, who all need the same vaccine. Who's going to get it first? How are we going to manage that process? That's going to take some time in itself to do. So we have to be able to do other steps and Pennsylvania has been good for that at this point. LB: And I think for our own community it's been terrific to have somebody from the queer community who is the spokesperson for health and science in the state. It's inspiring for a lot of us, too. LK: She's been front and present almost every day since the beginning of the pandemic, and just quietly doing her job. Look, here's a model. Someone who's transgender yet she's not crazy. She's intelligent, she's handling everything quite nicely. Huh, maybe other transgender people do, too. Because some of the research suggests that when people now somebody who is transgender, that tends to tweak their thinking a little bit differently. They have an impact, not directly their implicit biases, but they may think before they act on that biases because they know somebody in a positive light. LB: Yeah. Okay so it's been great, I think it's been great. Now this says here, this is one of the questions they gave me to ask everybody. Are you spending your time on any queer dating or hookup apps? Have you found queer communities -- here, you can say this. Have you found queer community despite the restrictions? LK: Yeah, you know I'm not a big fan of the dating apps. They haven't really worked well for me, so eh. (laughs) But I have spent a lot of time on Twitter though. That's been very interesting actually, through the pandemic. I've spent more time, we're on Facebook together. As I posted the other day I basically rejoined Facebook just to keep some contact with people (inaudible) in the community. So I understood that with everyone being locked down, that kind of slipped away. But really I spent much more time on Twitter. And that's been interesting because my Twitter verse includes trans and queer people in the US, Canada, the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, Australia, and Austria. So it's been really interesting to make those contacts all over, and there's really an age span, too, from people in their twenties into their seventies. And particularly with the trans community, people who are coming out at early ages, or are younger and have been out, and even people who are older. There's a couple people in their fifties, sixties, coming out now as well, and they're part of this trans Twitter, I guess, if you want to put it that way. So it's really been interesting, and interesting to see the differences in the way the younger folk process things from the older folk. You sometimes kind of look at them and say, "okay, okay, be patient with them, they will learn." (laughs) And also to know that with particularly people in the United Kingdom. They're putting up with a lot of crap right now. With TERFs and the government, poor Boris Johnson came out yesterday and said basically conversion therapy is an awful, awful, awful thing. But we can't ban it until we study it. LB: Oh for Heaven's sake. LK: Yeah, it's like what the heck does that mean? LB: And then there's the whole JK Rowling thing, which has totally destroyed, for so many young people who are trans who loved the whole Harry Potter thing, that's totally gone. Just flushed away. LK: She's pretty much known as She Who Will Not Be Named now. LB: No kidding. Lost it completely. I knew somebody who had retired from a university, and he was going to just whimsically become a wand maker. And he's totally stopped it. He said, "I'm not doing that, I'm not going to be involved with that, I'm throwing all the books away." And he's a straight, cisgender man. But he's a massive ally, and he said, "How could I possibly support this kind of stuff?" And we know people, we both know people who are transgender who were so committed to Harry Potter, that any kind of dress-up would never go by where they weren't wearing their Harry Potter outfits. Now that's totally gone. And I think that the legacy of these books is over, it's absolutely over. I think people are taking them out of the library, it's amazing. Book stores (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) LK: Book sales, for instance, hard book sales have actually increased because of the pandemic. People are buying them online and getting them shipped. But Harry Potter books have not. Their increase has been relatively small compared to the larger increase in sale of books overall. LB: I can't even understand it. I mean, this is a person who was so outspokenly supportive of people who were different for so long, that it's like an alien has taken over. Her arguments are crazy, they don't make any sense at all It's so hard to understand, it's just so hard to understand. And I don't even like the term TERF because I don't think anybody who considers themselves a feminist gets to say that they're discriminatory toward anybody. I think it's a bullshit definition. It's like saying you're a patriot and then hating your country. Or you're patriotic but you support someone that thinks that it's okay to collude with the Russians to kills troops. It doesn't make any sense. LK: Yeah, I was thinking that too. LB: Well there you go. But anyway, it's interesting to bring that up about what's happening in England. And I think also in Great Britain, they did a massive, massive shutdown, where people were literally not allowed to drive their cars or leave their houses. And it worked. It totally worked. They've done a very significant job in ending the necessity of even having to wear masks. They pretty much ended the pandemic there, in a brilliant way. In a committed way. So you've been walking around, but are you limiting going out to do other stuff? Have you been going out to eat or stuff like that? What do you think about that? LK: I've been to the grocery stores, to Wegmans and Giants, Giants for my mother. I've been to CVS to pick some stuff up, but up though the driveway. When I had to pick up a prescription, I go to Hartselle's Pharmacy, (inaudible) for my hormone prescription since it's compounded I've been there. I've been to [Fred's place?] once, and two weeks ago I went and got my hair done. That's been it. LB: Were you scared when you went? We haven't been in the grocery store. We actually haven't been -- Trish is at such risk that we don't go to the grocery store. LK: It's kind of hard in a grocery store to keep six feet, frankly. They tell you to try but I mean, I'm masked all the time, of course. I watch out for somebody who may not be wearing a mask, or who likes to wear the mask with their nose hanging out, which is kind of useless, and kind of make you go around them. But I'm cautious, I don't know that I'm scared, I'm just cautious. I understand the risks, and I understand too, I just need to get out a little bit. Because it can be a little challenging, shall we say, just being in here by myself all the time. LB: It can, I agree, I agree. So you were talking about some of the queer activities you were doing through Twitter and stuff like that. I was talking to somebody about a professional conference, and he said, "No, no it's not a professional conference, it's a conference for black and white men together" which is something that I've been involved with. So have you been to any conferences that are online Zoom things that were part of the LGBT community? LK: Well conference wise, only two. A professional one with our accreditor. And I have another one of those coming up in Academy Management that I'll probably go to. And I've done a couple things with the center. We had the one session on the book review with the author on the queering of corporate America, I went to. And I went to one or two things on Renaissance with Amazon -- with Amazon, with Zoom, here. But that's it. I did one of the Broadway Zoom events, and the Pride events that was all Zoomed and online as well too, I did that. LB: Cool. Well you're working it out then. So let's see. We have a question about young people who are trapped with their parents, you know, can't be out. But I think we older people who are out every minute of every day, that's never really an issue for us. And we forget how limiting that is for youth. Have you had any students who were having that kind of issue? LK: No. But in Twitter, the feed that shows up, what's interesting is that there are some people, they're younger, they tend to be. They work, they live alone. And essentially they consider themselves to be out. They've been at home now since March, whether they're working from home or whatever. They consider themselves to be out as transgender women, for instance, in the community. And now some of them are starting to get called back to work, and there's a lot of anxiety. I've been out, I've been living full time as a woman, now I have to go back to work, how am I going to handle this? What am I going to do? LB: Oh that's interesting, yeah. LK: Some of them are working it through. And there have been some people who have -- I saw one person this morning going back to work, she said that she had come out at work a week before everything shut down. So she's been out at home, and now she's going back to work with only that week. So it's almost like reintroducing herself to all of her co-workers again from scratch. And she's been anxious about that as well. It does set that dynamic up as well for the young ones who have been out of college for instance, and now they can go home to non-supportive homes and families. That can be a real issue too though. I haven't seen any that pop up at college. LB: Well that's good. So what's the biggest frustration or the biggest challenge you've had to come into contact with? LK: It's interesting in many ways. We've been doing some work with the college in terms of response to Black Lives Matter. Frankly it kind of drives me nuts because it's so episodic. Something happens, the world goes nuts, well we have to address this, and they take this very narrow focus. And they talk about it really at institutional levels, but we're talking structural stigmatization issues and the like, and then everybody goes through it, and says okay we've done it, and then they walk away. But they haven't really dealt with the real issues. So that drives me kind of nuts. And it's not just for Black Lives Matter, it's for the LGBT community, it's for all the transgender people as well. It's this piecemeal approach to everything, instead of going out, looking at this as a whole about diversity, equity, and inclusion. And looking at what really is the key for me, and I do my research in this area, so cut me off if I'm (inaudible). Particularly I've adopted this stigmatization model, and when you look at it, the real issue is culture and organizations. And its leaders who need to change the culture if you're going to change any of the issues and dealing with bias and organizations. And we've done some work coming out of a young person, a young black woman, a PhD who does a lot of consulting work in implicit bias. (inaudible) and I talk with her too, we've done some phone calls about it. And the intersectionalities that are at play are really, really important. Black Lives Matter, you have the intersectionality who is black trans community. And it's been devastating for the black trans community in the last few months, for instance. And all that comes in the intersectionality for the whole trans community as well as the LGBT community. And my guess is, I can't support this empirically, but for older members of the trans community such as myself, we're probably fighting a bit of a PTSD when it comes down to it in dealing with the anxiety in the decisions we had to make about not coming out, coming out, not coming out, finally coming out. Even the anxiety, because we internalize the stigma, whether it's structural or an inner-personal stigma, we all expect it to happen to us at some point, that someone is going to attack us in the bathroom, in a public restroom, because we're trans and that's what happens to some trans people. We've all heard the stories about the discrimination. So it's all internalized. Black Lives Matter, for me at least, and I'm guessing for others too, it just triggers a lot of that. The concern, the anxiety, the fears and the frustrations, and to me, it also creates the challenges, how do you deal with this overall? We need to deal with the Black Lives Matters issues, the prejudice, the bias in this country for 400 years with the black community. If we do that right, we'll uplift everyone. And that's my greatest frustration, feeling or challenge right now, to deal with it. And so, kind of really, you know, some ways, academically, I was moved by stuff where I'm addressing some of this research. I did get a book chapter written and out to the editor during this time on workplace transition issues. I've been talking with nurses and classes about the stigmatization. So, I just got to get this (inaudible) get the next article published. And eventually, I want to go out and actually test that model empirically. But it's really, you know, so much is about -- it's structural, it's what people -- call [that?] systemic. But it's also the interpersonal, that implicit bias that people act on that pushes through discrimination and anti-trans behaviors. And those combine together and they feed each other in organizations and in our society. And, you know, we've got to break that chain and that's all about culture. And in organizations where I focus my work, it's leaders. And leaders have to step up to change the culture but most leaders, in my experience, don't get that, don't understand it. They think you can change policies and everything's taken care of and, nope, that's not going to do it. LB: And they also think -- they do tend -- I think what you were saying at the beginning, in terms of being reactive that, you know, something happens and then they react to it as opposed to recognizing that the atmosphere is allowing that to happen every day and that they're not always -- LK: Yeah. LB: -- taking that in consideration, no question about that. It's great you're (inaudible). LK: There was an article on NPR last evening about diversity inclusion officers in corporations. And generally, the experience there has been, well, you get a person who's your D& ; I person. And basically, you know, their tenure in organizations is relatively short. They have a tendency to, you know, come up with a report and try to follow up a year or so later and nothing's changed kind of thing. They often don't have access to the metrics they need to look, to understand what's happening with respect to diversity, equity, and inclusion. And basically, it's -- D& ; I officer is really about displaying, "See? Look at us! We're all wonderful and we care about diversity inclusion." And, again, it's not that -- one person's not going to change it. It's got to be the leaders in the organization who take this certain role. LB: Yeah. Yeah, that's so true. So, yeah, I just read a whole big article about the language that -- I just was working on that this morning, that because I'm updating a bunch of my trainings, too -- so, I'm doing a bunch in August and the -- and I'm looking at it from the lens of language and how language is constantly -- the fact that a lot of language is coded to be racist and favor white supremacy without people understanding that. And it happens so frequently in academic settings and also in general support settings, particularly for youth. So, when you talk about disenfranchised youth, it's not [that they're different?] (inaudible). LK: [I saw it, I'm?] -- LB: -- you know? So, I think that's an issue, too. So, I think we covered most of the stuff. So, in general, do you feel your mental health is pretty good during this stuff? You're doing pretty well but I can see how there's also frustrations and stuff. What's the hardest thing you've experienced so far? [I think?] -- LK: [Yeah?] (inaudible) (laughter) truthfully, the hardest thing so far has been dealing with, you know, the frustrations, the anxieties, the fears of Black Lives Matters and the intersections of that. And, you know, see what's happening and being just so totally frustrated and upset about it and not being able to really do a heck of a lot about it in a positive sense. LB: It's true. It's true. So, do you know anybody -- LK: And so it's just -- LB: -- that's -- LK: -- depressing at times. LB: Huh? What'd you say? LK: It's depressing at times, frankly. LB: It is. It's totally -- do you know anybody who has been sick or who has had any other -- anybody around you or [any that?] -- LK: Yeah, I had a grad student who was ill. LB: Oh, God. LK: Yeah. I had a grad student who was ill. But, you know, yeah, she and her husband both were, you know, had -- went to the emergency rooms, got diagnosis and all. And so, they were self-quarantined at home by themselves. But, you know, the class was an online class, so had no interaction with them except through the class. There was no personal interaction kind of thing back and forth. Otherwise, no, no, I haven't. LB: Yeah. It's interesting, 'cause -- LK: [And I think I've?] -- LB: -- when I talk to somebody who has had a lot of exposure within their family, at the beginning, the first ten people I interviewed who were all the HIV/AIDS guys were older people who were tending to -- because a lot of them were retired and stuff -- [were?] far less likely to know somebody that was at risk or who had had the illness. But since I've been interviewing the COVID folks, [was?] a much bigger or broader demographic, those folks have -- you know, the first person I interviewed said, "Yeah, eight of my family members and three of them have died." And, right, the first thing they said. And -- LK: Wow. LB: -- it's somebody in our community. And so, like, and I'm thinking, like, oh, you know, maybe I'll find a couple people and it pretty much -- everyone I've spoken to has told me about somebody who was sick. I just talked to somebody yesterday whose father was intubated for two weeks. I mean, was on the oxygen -- LK: Ouch! LB: -- for two weeks. Yeah, ouch, man, so -- and we're talking about a second wave of this and I think it's unlikely that we're going to -- LK: Yeah. LB: -- miss out on that. I think it's going to happen, and particularly, people have been so cavalier about it. So -- LK: Yeah. LB: -- we're pretty much coming to the end, so -- and I got another one of these soon after. So, I wanted to ask you if there's anything -- so, we were really talking about this and we talk about Black Lives Matter because I wanted everybody to talk about that. Is there anything else that you want to say? Because we are looking at this as something that somebody might look at 30 years from now, forty years from now. Maybe you and I won't be around, I don't know, in forty years. But if there's anything else that you would -- LK: It'd be a miracle. LB: Yeah, I think so, too. If there's (laughter) anything else that you would like to sort of say to those people, then, who might be looking at this as a research project to see -- they kind of know what's going to happen but they don't know what -- how it's happening for individuals. So, I think that that's an interesting response, to talk to somebody who is there in the future, watching this video about you or -- LK: Well, I wish they would, you know, send me a message so I would know what happens in November. I need to know if I'm going to move to Canada or not, you know? LB: Yeah. LK: (laughs) It's kind of sort of funny in a way that when I was just entering college, way back when, Vietnam War was on and people were going, some people were going to Canada and avoid the draft. Now I'm talking about going to Canada to avoid Donald Trump if he gets reelected. And God, I hope not. LB: Yeah. LK: Be really interesting to know that. Yeah, it's such -- in my heart of hearts, I'm really, really, really hoping socially this is the last gasp of the white male conservative culture in this country having power and that we can, as a society, defeat Donald Trump in November and step back, fix what has happened, and then look ahead to a more inclusive society, a more equitable society across the board, which I think has got to happen just for the country, for the future. That's really what I'm, in my heart of hearts, I want to happen at this point. And I will do my part to make sure that happens. [56:00] Get out and vote, yes, you know? LB: Yes. (laughter) LK: My government check went to political causes, to Joe Biden. It went to Susan Wild, you know? Get the Democrats in office, and -- as well as to Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center. And so, you know -- LB: Yeah, it's [too?] -- LK: -- it's really -- LB: -- exactly that -- LK: -- such an interesting time. And I think of my daughter who's a Ph.D. academic historian. And what we've talked about -- and her area's about Reconstruction, post-Civil War, historical memory and all that. And it kind of forms some of the ideas in my brain about when you ask a question like -- as you did about what's happening, what else to come and [put it in proportion?], I really think we're at -- on that point, that edge point, is something going to happen? And I really hope it falls the right way come November, you know? LB: Well, me too. I can't -- there isn't a minute that I don't think about that. And it's going to be that way for -- LK: Yeah. LB: But then, after it happens and if we're ultimately successful, we can't just go, okay, everything's fine now, you know? LK: Oh, and, yeah, that could be the big battle. LB: That is going to be -- LK: Yep. LB: -- the big battle. LK: You know, I've been working hard to think about what I want to be when I grow up. I figure I'm really only about seven years old. I mean, I came out full-time on September 3rd, 2013. So, I'm just about seven years old. Well, I have a little dog years in there. So, I'm a little older. But, I mean, so I'm still growing as a person and there's still things I think I want to get done in the world and I just haven't figured out how to do 'em yet. But I think November's going to be very important and I'm hoping there's some path for me there, too, as well, other than just retiring. (laughs) LB: Yeah, no kidding. Well, let's hope for that. Anyway, it's been great to talk to you. Thank you so much for talking to me. LK: [Yeah?]. LB: It's been -- always -- LK: You're welcome. LB: -- love to chat, I'm sure. Sorry your shirt wasn't more purple but I can see lavender in it now, so (laughter) that's the important -- LK: Okay. LB: -- but I really appreciate that. You've been great, as usual, and you look terrific, as always. LK: Thank you -- LB: And the video -- LK: -- for saying that -- LB: -- was particularly good. I mean, you know, sometimes I think the lighting is so bad on this person and you've hit on it. I think you're there. You're good at the -- LK: Well, I have my one LED light here, on, giving a little light from that side, plus I get the light from the left-hand side from outside, so -- LB: Yeah, there you go. LK: -- [total sunlight?]. LB: You're on it. Okay, so take care and just stay safe. LK: You, too. LB: And I appreciate -- LK: Thanks for inviting me to do this. LB: -- [and you're -- love it?], okay. LK: Okay, take care, bye-bye. LB: Bye-bye. END OF VIDEO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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Lizabeth Kleintop, July 21, 2020
Description
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Lizabeth Kleintop talks about how the current COVID-19 pandemic is affecting her as a professor at a local college, how teaching online is progressing and what Moravian College may do in the next few semesters. She also talks about her experience as a Transgender woman and how she is communicating with other Trans people and the concerns she has regarding the institutional transphobia that is being put forth by the current presidential administration and culture.
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PH40_17
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
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2020-07-21
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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https://lgbt.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/36b2ed4510c2ee4a07a056352af6c1d3.png
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
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In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Liz Bradbury
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Anita Niles-Lee
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_18.xml
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5.4 July 13, 2020 Anita Niles-Lee, July 13, 2020 PH40_18 01:05:51 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Anita Niles-Lee Liz Bradbury video/mpeg Niles-LeeAnita_20200713_video.mp4 1.0:|27(9)|50(8)|75(5)|112(14)|141(7)|170(6)|193(12)|216(8)|235(13)|258(17)|279(4)|298(3)|319(10)|338(2)|363(2)|382(9)|417(9)|438(8)|461(5)|484(7)|511(10)|532(15)|555(14)|576(9)|597(8)|624(4)|651(7)|678(4)|709(8)|736(13)|767(16)|800(3)|827(16)|846(5)|873(11)|898(16)|915(10)|938(5)|963(4)|986(4)|1003(10)|1026(2)|1053(7)|1076(13)|1099(10)|1118(14)|1141(2)|1160(15)|1189(14)|1208(10)|1235(7)|1258(4)|1287(9)|1312(6)|1335(6)|1356(15)|1379(12)|1400(7)|1423(7)|1446(6)|1473(13)|1496(12)|1519(7)|1544(2)|1573(3)|1584(5) 0 https://youtu.be/_yhV44hachA YouTube video 0 Interview Introduction LB: Wonderful. I am going to read you this stuff because we’re recording now. This says -- oh, I have to turn off my phone, I want to do that. And I want to pin -- what we call pinning the video. And so, I’m going to pin this. There. That means that when we talk it doesn’t keep jumping back to me. Just your picture, so your picture is really big. Terrific, you look terrific. Let’s see, I did that, I did that, and I did the audio and the video. With this project, Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh and the greater Lehigh Valley LGBT community, collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury and I’m here with Anita Niles-Lee. 0 378 Husband losing job due to pandemic ANL: My husband and I have been basically strict quarantine since the second week in March. He lost his job, so that kind of made it easy to totally quarantine. He was working in New Jersey and his job is affiliated with the airline industry, which we all know how that is doing, so he was laid off pretty early in the process. 
 ; 0 453 Husband losing family members to Covid-19 ANL: My husband has lost three family members actually. He lost three elderly members, one thought she had a cold. And it was within the second week, I think, that the virus broke out in New York. 0 512 Going out only for chores during the pandemic/Concerns about daughter's susceptibility to contracted Covid-19 ANL: We go out, we try to go out once a week very early in the morning just to chores. We never go out on weekends, weekends are -- we just lock down on the weekends. So, that’s pretty much been it. I’ve only seen my daughter once since -- my daughter who lives in Nazareth, we’ve only seen each other once since it started 0 695 Children's experiences with racism/Experiences during the pandemic ANL: I have Justin, who’s in LA doing very well. He actually went to one of the Black Lives Matter protests because he’s hard to keep down. And he’s active out there, but safe. They quarantine, they have a quarantine group, and those are the only people they’ve seen. He’s doing well. And as you know, my children are half-Chinese, so we have a lot of that going on too. 
 ; 
 ; LB: Has it been an issue?
 ; 
 ; ANL: My daughter in Florida was called the N-word by someone in a car who rolled his window down, yelled at her, and that happened. 0 892 Communicating with family/Daughter's work during the pandemic ANL: [...] My daughter in Florida every day. We FaceTime at least once or twice a day. She has three kids. The oldest is five, the youngest are twins, they’re two and a half. So, she’s kind of going crazy with that. And she actually taught my oldest granddaughter how to call me. 0 1042 Concerns during the pandemic/Communicating with son/Adapting to life during the pandemic ANL: Well, I have to be honest, with the pandemic and what’s happening with the transgender community and their rights being taken away and Black Lives Matter, it’s just -- and the Asian whatever he calls it, I can’t even remember, I’m overwhelmed. And some days I wonder if we’re ever going to get out of it. 0 1187 President Donald Trump's anti-Asian Covid rhetoric/Concerns of rhetoric effecting husband ANL: And as soon as we were going to drive down, he started with the Asian stuff. And I said to Dan, I’m not comfortable with you driving back through the South by yourself. So, I’m kind of grounded now until something gives. 
 ; 
 ; LB: When you said he started with the Asian stuff, you’re talking about the president of the United States. 
 ; 0 1368 Son's work as a writer LB: When you’re talking about the LGBT community, and I know Justin has been very significant in that community, he’s a writer, and has done some very significant work. What’s he working on now? 
 ; 
 ; ANL: Actually the Hulu new show, Love, Victor, he’s working on the second season for that show. 0 1411 Thoughts on Dr. Rachel Levine/President Trump's handling of the pandemic ANL: I adore her. (laughs) I’m always on Facebook as everybody pretty well knows, and some of the comments I get about that poor Dr. Levine are horrible, horrible. And I give her one-thousand percent credit for getting up there and doing what she does every day. She’s amazing, she’s amazing. She’s a hero, I have to say.
 ; 0 1536 Gardening during the pandemic ANL: We started, I call it my pandemic garden. Dan and I are die hard city people, so this is the first time we’ve ever really gardened. And I’m enjoying it. It’s actually brought us together. 0 1983 Stepping down from running PFLAG ANL: It had died down for a very, very long time. Sporadically I would get people asking for information and help over the internet, but the last year, after I think it was around December, I started hearing about a lot of young people getting upset with all that was going on with all the politics. So, someone had started the PFLAG chapter again, we had one meeting in February, and then the pandemic hit. I mean, I withdrew because I had differences with that person. 0 2142 Assisting young LGBT people ANL: Actually my -- my most recent call from help was a lady down in Florida. Someone I know in Florida gave her my number, and her daughter just started their hormone, their HRT, and she’s having a very hard time with going out and going shopping, and trying to be supportive but being stuck, and how they can get their medicine, and so I did a little research down that end of the town. But other than that it’s been quiet. 0 2371 Frustrations during the pandemic ANL: Every day I open my eyes and turn on the news. It’s almost like do I really even want to know. Daniel and I have it down to we’ll watch maybe morning news until nine o’clock and then it’s done. No more until maybe three o’clock and then it’s off for dinner time. Because you can’t. It was constant pounding and pounding. We avoid it. 0 2486 Reconnecting with people through FaceTime ANL: (laughs) I guess connecting with friends. People that, you know, we all work, but I guess I’m on the internet a lot, and I’ve -- people I went to grammar school with we’ve connected because everyone is home. I guess that was kind of fun. 
 ; 0 2650 Estrangement from family members/Son's divorce ANL: Yeah. We’re estranged. The boys just -- it was -- there is always drama but when Justin and Adrian came out and someone asked me when they were getting married, is this a real wedding, how can this be a real -- I was like, done. I pretty much just said we just can’t talk anymore. 0 2747 Concerns over contracting Covid-19 ANL: [...] I was a heavy smoker for many, many years. I have COPD. [00:46:00] And my daughter’s husband left five weeks ago, and had I not had this terrible history of lung problems, I would have been on a plane. And I told her, if I come down there I can’t get sick. So, we’re just waiting until airlines figure something out. Because my husband, I won’t let him drive. 0 2933 Struggles with mental health during the pandemic ANL: [...] The depression, the depression for me was awful. And the anxiety. Every time I had to leave my house I would palpitate, I would sweat, it was horrible. I try not to leave now. 0 3016 Black Lives Matter protests during the pandemic/Stress over others not wearing masks LB: I know that you’ve seen this circumstance that happened here in Lehigh Valley with the police. 
 ; 
 ; ANL: Yes, yeah. 
 ; 
 ; LB: And I actually had an interview with someone at five o’clock, but I knew that she would want to go. She’s a younger person and she’s a person of color, and I knew that she would want to be at this thing. So, I said let’s do your thing tomorrow. And Adrian said, people should go out and our employees can go to join this march. 0 3216 Concerns over school/daycare openings LB: And if you have a -- when we are talking about opening schools and stuff, how can -- I have a friend who’s a pediatrician and she had people ask her, moms ask her, is it okay for my kid to go to daycare and she said, “Well, let me ask you this. When your kid goes to daycare, do they ever get a cold from anybody else at daycare, or the flu, or any other thing?” They get everything at daycare. 
 ; 
 ; ANL: Turbo germs. I call them turbo germs. 
 ; 0 3322 Concerns over government's mismanagement of the pandemic effecting marginalized communities/Frustrations over pandemic deniers ANL: I have -- maybe it’s because I’m a person of color, I believe this is like his own private genocide. This is their way of getting rid of brown people, Black people, poor people, they don’t care. It’s like clear it out, we’ll buy up the real estate. It sounds very harsh and I know it’s like -- but that’s how I feel.
 ; 
 ; LB: I totally understand. I understand exactly what you mean. 0 3455 Thoughts for the future ANL: That we weren’t crazy. We weren’t speaking hyperbolically. We were truth tellers. And it’s hard, I think, for people like us to understand people so full of hate and so full of anger. And it’s beyond me. And I always thought America pulled together. America was always the country, I’m sorry, that pulled together. (crying) And we’re not. 0 MovingImage Anita discusses how the COVID-19 pandemic is affecting her and her family ; how her family has experienced racism and the rise of racism during the pandemic ; keeping in touch with her family ; the Black Lives Matter movement ; stepping down from PFLAG ; and gardening. Anita Niles-Lee 2020-07-13 LIZ BRADBURY: And you can actually see a little red dot actually and that means it's recording. Now if you look at your picture, you can see where your head is in the recording. So, you're not looking in the middle. ANITA NILES-LEE: So I skootch? LB: A little bit, but it will look like you have a halo. Which I think is kind of cute. (laughter) I'm going to start my audio recording too, so that's good. There you go. So, we're recording. Now you really look -- ANL: Oh, I look like a painting. (laughs) LB: Wonderful. I am going to read you this stuff because we're recording now. This says -- oh, I have to turn off my phone, I want to do that. And I want to pin -- what we call pinning the video. And so, I'm going to pin this. There. That means that when we talk it doesn't keep jumping back to me. Just your picture, so your picture is really big. Terrific, you look terrific. Let's see, I did that, I did that, and I did the audio and the video. With this project, Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh and the greater Lehigh Valley LGBT community, collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury and I'm here with Anita Niles-Lee. ANL: Niles-Lee, yes. LB: To talk about her experiences in the Lehigh Valley and also regarding the LGBT community during this time of the COVID pandemic, COVID-19 pandemic, as part of the LGBT Community Archive. Today is the 13th, Monday July 13, 2020, and thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start can you please state your full name and spell it for me. ANL: My name is Anita Niles-Lee. It's A-N, like Nancy, I-T-A, Niles, N-I-L-E-S, hyphen Lee, L-E-E. LB: And will you please share your birthdate. Now some people said they didn't want to give the year, I've been fine with it, doesn't matter either way. ANL: At this age I was born on May 12, 1959. (laughs) LB: You're a baby. Okay. What town are you in? ANL: I'm Reeders, Monroe County. LB: Reeders. ANL: Right, if you look on the map it's labeled Stroudsburg, but it's really Reeders. LB: You're in the Stroudsburg area. ANL: Yes. LB: Okay, great. This is the consent portion. Do you consent to this interview today? ANL: Yes, I do. LB: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publically available online in searchable formats? ANL: Yes, I do. LB: Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats including films, articles, and websites, presentations, and anything that we may not know of. ANL: Anything to help. LB: Great. So, yes is the answer to that. ANL: Absolutely yes. LB: And do you understand that you'll have thirty days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview and to identify parts that you'd like to delete or change, or withdraw your interview from the project because you just don't think it's good enough. If you want to do that you can. ANL: Yes, I understand. LB: Great. And so, I'm just going to ask you a couple of questions that are demographic questions. One of the things we ask people is, we ask people about their sexual orientation and gender identity, and I'd like for you to just kind of fill in because you are an important part of the LGBT community, how that works for you. ANL: I am heterosexual. Is that what you want me to say? LB: And cis gender I think you are? Right? ANL: I am cis gender, yes. LB: But I think also you're really an integral part of the -- or have been an integral part of the LGBT community along with your family members, so do you want to say something about that? ANL: Well, when my son came out in the late nineties, my family, we were taken by surprise, I guess you could say, so he had given us a book, I don't remember the name of the book, but at the end of the book they mentioned PFLAG. So, my husband and I found the Allentown chapter of PFLAG at that time with Don and Melinda Kohn. And when we went there we were absolutely blown away by the support and the love that PFLAG offered. And we realized in our area, which isn't far from Lehigh Valley, but in Stroudsburg that's like light years away, we needed something in the area. So, we started PFLAG Monroe County back in I think it was '98 or '99. LB: Yeah, that was great that you did that. Thank you for doing that. ANL: Long time. (laughs) LB: I need to ask you what your zip code is. ANL: 18360. LB: Okay. And it does say what is your age on here, which I think you kind of identified by giving your -- but anyway. ANL: Sixty-one. (laughs) LB: And I've asked you already about how you identify within the community, which you've said. Here are some things -- and then there's a bunch of different questions on here, I've already sent you these questions, but I just really going to start it out, you know, you can talk about anything you want with regard to the COVID pandemic and how it's affecting you, and you don't have to talk about all the questions that I asked, but let's start out with just asking are you home, are you working or are you at home, or what's going on for you? ANL: My husband and I have been basically strict quarantine since the second week in March. He lost his job, so that kind of made it easy to totally quarantine. He was working in New Jersey and his job is affiliated with the airline industry, which we all know how that is doing, so he was laid off pretty early in the process. LB: I see. Yeah. I lost one of my pages of questions. ANL: Oh, take your time. LB: You probably have them there. But let's talk about -- oh for heaven's sakes. I can't even search for it on my -- do you have the questions there, the other questions? ANL: You know what, I have them on my phone if I can just get up and get my phone. LB: I have them on the phone. Never mind, I can look them up. I'll look on my phone and we'll just pray that it doesn't ring. Talk a little bit about before as we're doing this, let's talk about if you know anybody who's had the illness or -- ANL: My husband has lost three family members actually. He lost three elderly members, one thought she had a cold. And it was within the second week, I think, that the virus broke out in New York. And they brought her into the emergency room and never saw her again. And another in New Jersey was high risk and he managed -- he caught it. And he just lost another relative in Brooklyn last week, all in their 80s, all really, really frail. But nonetheless. LB: Here we go. I'm good now. How has that affected -- I mean, both of you are at home and you're not going out. Are you not going at all or you're just going out really carefully? What's the circumstances? ANL: We go out, we try to go out once a week very early in the morning just to chores. We never go out on weekends, weekends are -- we just lock down on the weekends. So, that's pretty much been it. I've only seen my daughter once since -- my daughter who lives in Nazareth, we've only seen each other once since it started. She went back to work last week and I'm terrified because she has a congenital heart disease and her going back to work if she catches this it will kill her. It's been really hairy. LB: What does she do? ANL: She works at one of the restaurants in the Valley. A rather well-known restaurant but they're not following precautions, so it's really scary. It's really scary. LB: I had hoped to interview a couple people, people you probably know who have had it themselves, and they're actually so affected by it, I mean, they're better, but the effect it had on them is so serious that they can't talk about it. ANL: I can't -- yeah, I can't imagine. And his first family member, because of the way it was they couldn't even have a funeral. It was just -- it's that bad. And I'm just astounded by my daughter tells me people are in restaurants without their masks, and laughing, and joking, and making fun of the workers. They grabbed a lady's hand and went, "Ha, ha, 'rona, 'rona." Yeah, it's bad. And I find it frightening, I find it very frightening. LB: That's terrible. It's so upsetting. I mean, you can't -- and so, does she have any recourse in situations like that? I guess if it's in a restaurant it's hard to require people to cover their mouths. ANL: Well, I think what the employees are thinking of doing is just reporting that they're not following guidelines. They don't know, but they're hoping maybe it can get them fined, or shut down, or just bring attention to the matter because when someone did complain to an owner he said, well, if you leave we'll take it as your resignation. I think the only recourse they have is to report it and hope that someone comes in and does something so they'll take it seriously. Yeah. LB: Yeah. And you have other -- do you have just two kids? ANL: I have Justin, who's in LA doing very well. He actually went to one of the Black Lives Matter protests because he's hard to keep down. And he's active out there, but safe. They quarantine, they have a quarantine group, and those are the only people they've seen. He's doing well. And as you know, my children are half-Chinese, so we have a lot of that going on too. LB: Has it been an issue? ANL: My daughter in Florida was called the N-word by someone in a car who rolled his window down, yelled at her, and that happened. My other daughter was coming out of a Target and got the ching-chong, you know, go back to China. Other lovely stuff is going on in the world these days. LB: Has that caused them to also not want to go out? Have they had job discrimination? ANL: My daughter in Florida has been in quarantine -- you're going to think I'm telling you a soap opera. Her and her husband separated during the pandemic. So, she's quarantined with the three babies, and Nana can't get down there. So, there's that. And my daughter in Nazareth her boyfriend won't let her go out by herself at night anymore. He just -- it's safer for her to stay at home. And Justin seems to be doing well. He's working, it hasn't really affected his work. He's just more upset with all the garbage that's going around right now. LB: So, it's just you and Daniel in your home? ANL: Yes, just us chickens. (laughs) LB: Now at least you're not alone. Can you imagine what that would be like to be since March? I mean, Trish and I have been together here completely sequestered since March, we've hardly been out at all. It's so tough. And to think about the -- ANL: That's why I guess Justin was really smart because before, like right at the beginning, he and three other friends decided that they would all quarantine. And once every Friday night they would go to each -- just so they weren't alone all this time. And when they started protesting, that person was left out of the group, quarantined for two weeks, got tested, and then they'd start again. They seem to have worked out a good system for themselves. LB: It's really entertaining and very positive to hear about smart people. ANL: (laughs) Really. LB: Are you talking to him, do you find that you're talking to your family more on the phone? Are you doing video communicating too? ANL: Yeah. My daughter in Florida every day. We FaceTime at least once or twice a day. She has three kids. The oldest is five, the youngest are twins, they're two and a half. So, she's kind of going crazy with that. And she actually taught my oldest granddaughter how to call me. My daughter works until three in the morning, so at seven o'clock the babies will call me, and I pretty much FaceTime babysit for a while in the morning just so she can rest. It's wild. It's so wild. LB: She's working a regular job? ANL: She's an ASL interpreter. She hasn't worked since the pandemic because she worked mostly in hospitals and she's afraid to bring it home. So, she does Zoom work, and she works at night doing video relay for the deaf. That's how she's surviving until I get down there and she can get back into the community. LB: Is she in St. Augustine? ANL: No, she's in Odessa. It's right outside Tampa. LB: Yeah, I know it, yeah. ANL: Yeah, they have a huge deaf community down there. LB: I know. ANL: And she loves her work, she doesn't want to give that up. LB: Is she deaf? ANL: No. LB: She got into that in college? ANL: Honestly she watched The Miracle Worker when she was ten, and that's all she ever wanted to do. It was phenomenal. She never forgot. LB: The one with Patty Duke? ANL: Absolutely, the old black and white one. I like old films. LB: Anne Bancroft is so hot in that. ANL: Isn't she? (laughs) I have always loved Patty Duke. LB: (inaudible) about lesbians in it that every lesbian heard. I think that's amazing. ANL: Mrs. Robinson, come on. LB: True. But in that movie she actually makes a comment about women going after younger women. And when I first saw that when I was a kid I went -- Anne Bancroft is so hot. What's your biggest concern about all this stuff then? What's been happening? ANL: Well, I have to be honest, with the pandemic and what's happening with the transgender community and their rights being taken away and Black Lives Matter, it's just -- and the Asian whatever he calls it, I can't even remember, I'm overwhelmed. And some days I wonder if we're ever going to get out of it. They hate. And I guess because I'm affected from so many different aspects. I just feel like I'm underwater sometimes. LB: Going back a little bit to communications, have you been communicating with Justin and stuff so you can see him, or mostly just on the phone? ANL: We text every day. We have a group text. At least once a day everybody will send a silly picture or just a stupid, something to make everyone laugh, and so we know we're all okay. We've been doing it since the start. And once a week we try to call. We've had four Facebook birthday parties. (laughs) And even down in Florida the kids had a parade of cars. Instead of a birthday party all their friends drove by in -- we're adapting, I guess. LB: They're too young to go to school, so at least you don't have to worry about that too much, about having to go to school. ANL: My five year old starts kindergarten. Yeah, well, her mom registered her for virtual school. Hopefully it's not one of the programs that DeSantis decided to cut. You can't win. LB: We have to worry about the way that Pennsylvania is, but it's so crazy in Florida. We go to Florida all the time. I said we're not going to be able to go to Florida for years. ANL: Yeah. I mean, we want to drive down because of her situation because I'm planning to stay there until the little one starts kindergarten because daycare is out of the question. And as soon as we were going to drive down, he started with the Asian stuff. And I said to Dan, I'm not comfortable with you driving back through the South by yourself. So, I'm kind of grounded now until something gives. LB: When you said he started with the Asian stuff, you're talking about the president of the United States. ANL: Yes, yes. LB: This Archive is possibly going to be viewed by people thirty year from now, and when we talk about this kind of stuff, we may not -- I know exactly what you mean. ANL: Saying that name leaves a bad taste. LB: I just read a thing saying don't say his name, forty-five is fine. But I think that people may not understand, and I'm really glad I'm talking to you about this because as a mom dealing with this from so many different angles and it's very serious. People aren't going to understand this unless we do these kind of archives for that history. ANL: It's true. I mean, a neighbor, she's like why don't you just drive? I'm like because my husband is a 61 year old Asian man who will be driving back probably at night through the South and no thank you. I just can't even imagine it. And we don't think like that. LB: I know. Well, it's terrible. It's a terrible situation. We have Asian people in our family too and we were asking -- one of them has been sick and has recovered, she's a young person, and so she really has a high level of antibodies, she's really safe, she can't get it, and she can't give it to anybody else, but she's Chinese, and I'm worried about her to send her into a store because I don't want her to have to deal with that kind of stuff. People need to start thinking about this stuff. ANL: I guess I'm different. I kind of raised my kids to be different because I grew up in Chinatown, New York in the seventies and I was the different person where I grew up. And I was the one that was bullied, and I was the one that was out-casted. I used to tell them, you're not going to sit in the back of anyone's bus. And as time went on I realized it's like, Anita, you kind of have to put your money where your mouth is. And my kids always had it in the back of their heads that we're different, we have to be careful. And I kind of knock on wood these days that they were raised that way. LB: Yeah. Well, you did a good job. ANL: Thank you. LB: When you're talking about the LGBT community, and I know Justin has been very significant in that community, he's a writer, and has done some very significant work. What's he working on now? ANL: Actually the Hulu new show, Love, Victor, he's working on the second season for that show. He's doing that now actually. He has a few movies in the works, things being transferred from play to movie. He's doing very well, god bless him. Can't complain. (laughs) LB: Well, we're lucky. I know one of the good thing about our community and being in the state of Pennsylvania is that we're in a state with a governor that is smart, and we also have a really terrific Secretary of Health. Want to talk about that? Talk about that. ANL: I adore her. (laughs) I'm always on Facebook as everybody pretty well knows, and some of the comments I get about that poor Dr. Levine are horrible, horrible. And I give her one-thousand percent credit for getting up there and doing what she does every day. She's amazing, she's amazing. She's a hero, I have to say. LB: She is. And we're lucky to be in a state where at least we have a governor and a Secretary of Health who says science things. ANL: Absolutely. Absolutely. I worry now that Mr. Trump is now trying to discredit Dr. Fauci. That has me concerned. I mean, when doctors say that patients are telling them they're lying, you're telling me I have it and I don't because it's -- have you ever? Never. LB: Can't imagine, I can't understand why. It's this whole thing of sort of wanting something, it's like a little kid that wants something to be a way, so they just won't listen to anything. ANL: I can't fathom it. And that he has a cult. I'm sorry, that's what I call them. There's no rhyme or reason. LB: Yeah. (laughs) I have questions on here that don't apply to you, they have to do with queer dating hook-up sites, probably you're not using those. ANL: No, I haven't used those. (laughs) LB: Let's talk about like what things have changed in your life? Things that have specifically changed in your life that are happening now, what stuff is -- in a way because Daniel is not working, you don't have to worry about him working, so there's that. ANL: Thank god. LB: But, I mean, if you've been in since March, Trish and I have been too really, it's interesting to imagine that we've done things that we would not have normally done. ANL: Yeah. LB: Have you done that? ANL: We started, I call it my pandemic garden. Dan and I are die hard city people, so this is the first time we've ever really gardened. And I'm enjoying it. It's actually brought us together. At the beginning we were almost ready to kill each other. It was just the closeness and I guess all the stress, and everything was just so horrible. And I just said, why don't we do a garden. And it's been healing. I found it healing. LB: It's a flower garden or a vegetable garden? ANL: A vegetable garden. And I even had potatoes in honor of you and Trish because I look at your pictures every year and I'm amazed. LB: I'm going to send you stuff to put in your garden. (inaudible) onions, which are perennials. I think yeah, this is the -- usually we go away and we don't get a chance -- because we're aware we have another person water it, but they're not weeding it, and he actually came and saw the garden and said, this is the best I've actually seen the garden. And I said, yep, because we're maniacally -- ANL: Pull weeds. (laughs) LB: What do you have in the garden? ANL: I have potatoes, and I'm growing garlic, and broccoli, and cauliflower, and squash, and you name it, I've got it out there. But we did kind of let the cucumbers get this big. We're learning. LB: Here is something you can plant. The next time you go to the grocery store, if you go to an organic, a place that has organic vegetables, get a celery, a full sized celery. Then cut the bottom off. Do you have celery in the garden? ANL: Actually I have celery in my refrigerator as we speak. LB: Well, cut the bottom off and take that bottom and put it in a little thing of water, not up real high, and grow some roots out of the bottom of the thing, you know where the bottom is -- ANL: Really? LB: Once those grow down and you've got a little bit of roots, you can put it in the garden, water it like a regular thing, and celery will grow out of it. We have celery in our garden now that is growing. ANL: That is phenomenal, I have to do that. LB: It's really terrific. If it's organic then it will grow more, but it should probably even work if it isn't organic, but it should be okay. And we have two plants that we started earlier and we actually had one other celery plant that came from Rodale, but it's been -- it's very successful. It's very easy to grow that. And you know how you can -- and then when it's time to eat it, and you can eat it when it's small too, you just cut the pieces off, you don't have to pull it out, so that it keeps -- ANL: Pull the whole thing, yeah. I've actually gotten into on Facebook, I found a group, Beneficial Weeds. I'm learning which weeds in my garden can be used as tea, and salves, and all this other -- it's pretty fascinating. LB: Purslane. ANL: Yes, I have tons of it. I actually had chamomile and I never knew it. LB: That's wonderful. Good for you, Anita, that's really a good thing. So, that's something you're doing that you normally wouldn't do. ANL: No, I never would have even fathomed it. I'm learning that we can make ourselves happy sometimes. And that's what we're doing. Dan and I have found new ways to connect now that there's no kids. LB: Are you growing green beans? ANL: No, we didn't do green beans. We're going to do them next year. But I am growing Chinese ginger. LB: That's a -- ginger is -- ANL: I love Chinese ginger. LB: Sure. ANL: I have a friend next year sending me seeds from Hong Kong. LB: Now you know that the thing we grow, we don't grow potatoes anymore, we grow sweet potatoes. So, that's what we really grow. ANL: How do you do that? It's not like regular potatoes, right? LB: There's two ways of doing it and we actually get a company sends us the little starter sweet potatoes and they're like roots and we plant those, we get about fifty of those and we plant those in the garden. But you can also do it just by getting an organic sweet potato from the store, especially one that might have sprouted a little bit, and then just do that thing that you do when you sort of put it in water with some toothpicks and stuff so that it sprouts up. Then if you plant the whole thing in the ground, it will begin to have leaves, and it will get roots, and it will grow the potato. ANL: Well, then I might have a sweet potato out there. We had one and I told him, I said, oh just plant it. But then I was reading and I said, it doesn't sound like we're going to get any but you can eat the leaves. LB: You can eat the leaves. They're called Kumara, yeah. ANL: I found a Chinese recipe for them. So, we're going to try them. LB: You can eat the leaves. They're like lettuce, it tastes like lettuce or spinach, sort of a halfway between lettuce and spinach. And they're so prolific, you can get so many leaves. But the thing about sweet potatoes is they're a very, very long season. So, if you planted it in the spring, when did you plant it about? ANL: I think I planted it in the beginning of May. LB: Well, if you leave it all the way, don't be tempted to dig it up until it starts to freeze. And then -- ANL: Really? LB: Yeah. Because they're a long season. And so, if you get Georgia Jets, which are the red ones, those are the fastest because they're called Jets. And you might have a hard time getting, but you absolutely can eat the leaves. And if you dig down and you really don't see anything, leave it there until next year. (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) itself next year. Another thing is if you take the vines and you bury the vines, they will get roots that will go down and make potatoes too. ANL: Now that's probably what he'll do because he loves doing stuff like that. Thank you for the tips. LB: Yeah, those are great though. That's our biggest crop. We get so many sweet potatoes that there are enough for the whole year. We'll give you the name of the place where we get the roots from. But you really can grow from it from sweet potatoes from the store. ANL: It's amazing. Well, I'll let you know what happens. Because I have that one growing. LB: I'm dying to know. That sounds terrific. You were running PFLAG for so long, are you not doing that as much now? What's the plan? What's the deal? ANL: It had died down for a very, very long time. Sporadically I would get people asking for information and help over the internet, but the last year, after I think it was around December, I started hearing about a lot of young people getting upset with all that was going on with all the politics. So, someone had started the PFLAG chapter again, we had one meeting in February, and then the pandemic hit. I mean, I withdrew because I had differences with that person. I didn't think that -- we had different ideas of ways of -- so, I decided that I would step down and we'll see what happens. Hopefully everything will go well. LB: If you get calls from people, particular families of transgender youth, we have now we're running at the Community Center twice a month, a virtual Zoom meetings for families of transgender kids. ANL: Right, that's where I always refer everyone, Bradbury-Sullivan Center is the place to go. LB: Feel free to send them directly to me if you think because -- although we have fourteen employees now, which is amazing. ANL: Wow. That's fantastic. LB: So, we have fourteen wonderful employees and they're wonderful, they're just incredible, and Adrian is wonderful. But a lot of times when people call, they have very time consuming jobs, and I still run the info line so that if people call and they need somebody to talk to and ask questions, they don't always have -- there's not always an opportunity for them to have the kind of information from -- some of our employees are new to the community so they can't refer -- like if (inaudible) or anybody who's LGBT in Stroudsburg, they don't even know what (inaudible) is, much less -- ANL: Yeah. No, I always refer everyone to you guys because I mean, up here it's sparse. And it tends to get sticky up here at times. So, I always, you guys are like number one on my, you're on my rapid dial. (laughs) LB: Do you know or has anybody contacted you or people who are being out during the pandemic that are finding that to be -- because some youth are having problems with it. ANL: Actually my -- my most recent call from help was a lady down in Florida. Someone I know in Florida gave her my number, and her daughter just started their hormone, their HRT, and she's having a very hard time with going out and going shopping, and trying to be supportive but being stuck, and how they can get their medicine, and so I did a little research down that end of the town. But other than that it's been quiet. It seems to be a lot of elderly people trying to accept. Because the kids seem to be doing wonderfully. At our PFLAG meeting, the one meeting we had, we had a lady from Lehighton bring her five year old transgender daughter. But the baby was hiding under the table the whole time, so insecure, and my heart, my heart. But I told her, I said try calling you guys, you might know other little ones that maybe they can do playdates. And so, hopefully she called. LB: Adrian was working on a process, a potential program, and you know we have to have funding for all these things to pay for anybody because we can't just have a program, we have to have funding, we have to have support, and really set it all up and stuff. But he was working on a program for LGBT families with kids. So, it could be that the kids are LGBT, little kids, so little kids, we're talking about little kids, zero to six, because kids are looking for playdates with other kids who are LGBT or families who are pro-LGBT. It could be two lesbians, it could be two gay men, who have kids, or it could be trans families that have kids, or it could be families that have little kids that are trans or who are -- ANL: Yeah, it seems like it would be beneficial because this lady was desperate. She has to homeschool because when she wants to wear a dress to school people make fun. The school wasn't cooperative with pronouns and things. And she said she's in a backwards area where there's nothing for her either. I'll contact her and find out if she talked to you guys yet. LB: Well, I can say that the most recent Supreme Court decision, the Bostock Decision, that's a pretty good decision for us. It's about employment, it's not about schools, but the precedent that it set was very significant. So, things are going to change with regard to that. ANL: Yeah, it just takes time. LB: It does, but when you have the law behind you, the school has to do the right thing. Right now they don't, but it's going to be that they're going to have to because of the Bostock decision. ANL: And those babies, those babies need it, they really do. LB: They do, they really do. It's absolutely true. I'm trying to get back to my questions. I lost them. There I go. So, what's the biggest frustration you're having? You're talking a lot about -- I understand the fears, we all have these, and I'm so glad that you've got the gardening thing going. But are you having day to day frustrations? ANL: Every day I open my eyes and turn on the news. It's almost like do I really even want to know. Daniel and I have it down to we'll watch maybe morning news until nine o'clock and then it's done. No more until maybe three o'clock and then it's off for dinner time. Because you can't. It was constant pounding and pounding. We avoid it. And it's frustrating that I feel we can't go to a lot of places now because the way things are, people aren't very friendly or very kind. I even told him when he lost his job, way at the beginning, before any of the nonsense, I was like for some reason I think maybe it's better. It's just it's frustrating that my daughter is by herself, I can't get down there to be with her. My son is in LA. He's got his support group but you know, family, to be there. And he can't come home to visit like he usually does. I haven't seen him since Christmas. And like I said, with my youngest working in the atmosphere she works in with a bad heart. It's tough. LB: It really is. It's really tough. What's the best thing you experienced? Besides the garden? Although the garden sounds really good. ANL: (laughs) I guess connecting with friends. People that, you know, we all work, but I guess I'm on the internet a lot, and I've -- people I went to grammar school with we've connected because everyone is home. I guess that was kind of fun. LB: People who have been contacting you and saying, just checking in to see if you're okay, that kind of stuff? ANL: Yes, like hey, is this the [Amy Sitsinbrino?] from Transfiguration in 1972? (laughs) And it's like yes, it's me. It's just been wild, it's been wild. So, I'm not missing going out. LB: That's because people are home and they're thinking oh, let me look up this person kind of deal. Is that what's happened? ANL: Or a memory just pops in your head and you're I wonder what's up with them. It's been a very strange kind of fun. LB: Now that you have this Zoom capability -- ANL: I know, my husband is never going to see me again. LB: You can see how really real it is. It's different than a little phone thing or something. It's really real time. You're really talking to the person like they're there almost. ANL: Yeah, well, we do this on FaceTime. I think FaceTime is pretty much the same thing. But nothing replaces a hug. LB: That's true. The big difference I think between Zoom and FaceTime, and I don't know FaceTime that well, but it's much easier on Zoom to have multiple people. ANL: Yeah, yeah. FaceTime when we do it for our little birthday parties, it takes a few shots before we get it the right way. LB: Yeah, yeah. So, think about how techy you're becoming now. ANL: I know. I have to say I impressed myself with this. LB: You did. You're brilliant. Thank God that we have this ability to do this, to communicate with people. ANL: Yeah, it makes you miss, like my mom and dad died like five and three years ago, respectively. And too bad, they just missed it, the ability to see all -- to have the grandkids and everything, the great grandkids. LB: Were they in New York? ANL: Yeah, they never left. LB: Do you have other family members in New York? ANL: Yeah. We're estranged. The boys just -- it was -- there is always drama but when Justin and Adrian came out and someone asked me when they were getting married, is this a real wedding, how can this be a real -- I was like, done. I pretty much just said we just can't talk anymore. LB: Are they married, Justin and Adrian? ANL: They were. Unfortunately Hollywood. That's what I say, Hollywood. Their divorce is in the process. Justin's found a new person. And Adrian's still my son. LB: He's a wonderful guy. They had been together a long time. ANL: Seventeen and they're thirty-seven, twenty years. They grew up together. But, you know, they're amicable. And I told Adrian, you'll always be my baby. Yeah, what are you doing to do. He's like Mommy, I'm so -- I'm like no, no, no sorry, it's life, it happens. We're okay. LB: It happens. ANL: Yeah, I can't -- he was my baby too, I can't. And Justin's okay with that. LB: Okay, well that's good. Good for him. How worried are you about you getting it? ANL: Terrified. I was a heavy smoker for many, many years. I have COPD. And my daughter's husband left five weeks ago, and had I not had this terrible history of lung problems, I would have been on a plane. And I told her, if I come down there I can't get sick. So, we're just waiting until airlines figure something out. Because my husband, I won't let him drive. LB: It's complicated. And it's not like you can take a bus or something. ANL: Simple little things. I mean, you know every three months I was on a plane back and forth and it's all stopped. I haven't seen them since Christmas and my heart breaks. LB: Such a complicated thing. And is Daniel at risk? He seems like a big strapping guy. ANL: No, he's pretty healthy. He has borderline diabetes, it's not full-fledged, but we still won't take chances. It's just not -- especially that his family is like -- yeah, it's kind of bowling them over so, no thank you, we'll stay home. LB: I don't mean to point this out, but I'm quite a bit older than you, but we're older and they're saying that people over 45 are at a much higher risk. ANL: Yeah, it's true, it's scary. And I know what it's like not to be able to breathe. I mean, if it's anything like that it's scary. And to have to go through it alone? LB: The second layer of it, that whole thing of getting it and then like I know somebody who had it and it was devastatingly hard for her, but she had family and she also has a lot of medical connections, like she has healthcare connections. If she hadn't had that, if she'd been -- in fact, I can think of three people who had it, had they been well they would have died, just no question that they would have died. ANL: Yeah, it's horrible. And I mean, not only is it hard for the person with it, but for the family. His cousins were totally locked out, they had no information until she passed away. LB: Was she in New York City? ANL: New York City during the first three weeks. LB: Oh no. ANL: When everything was berserk. And she thought it was a cold. They took her to the emergency room, the staff converged, and everyone had to leave, and that was it. They didn't know until she passed. LB: That's awful. Do you think this is like, and I know how it is for me, but in terms of mental health, I don't see how it can't affect people every day. ANL: Oh it does. The depression, the depression for me was awful. And the anxiety. Every time I had to leave my house I would palpitate, I would sweat, it was horrible. I try not to leave now. And like I said, Dan and I will go out at six, seven in the morning. And we went to I think it was Walmart and it was frightening. It was crowded, no masks, it was horrifying. There was a young woman there carrying a baby, no mask, no nothing, and I was horrified. And that was it, I told him after that. I stayed in bed for two days after that. And I kind of told him, I said I can't do that. But I have to be in open air. I'll go to the farmer's market, I'll go to the farm store, but Giant and -- no, I can't. It's horrifying. LB: You can't control the other people and they're the ones that are putting you at risk. I know that you've seen this circumstance that happened here in Lehigh Valley with the police. ANL: Yes, yeah. LB: And I actually had an interview with someone at five o'clock, but I knew that she would want to go. She's a younger person and she's a person of color, and I knew that she would want to be at this thing. So, I said let's do your thing tomorrow. And Adrian said, people should go out and our employees can go to join this march. But then he went on to say, if you're not at risk. And I look at the videos of the first march, which was on Saturday, late Saturday night, and most of the people, because these are Black Lives Matters marches and they wore the mask. I saw one person, but I also noticed that the police were not wearing masks. And some of them were, but most of them weren't. And some of the elected officials weren't wearing masks. And I also saw somebody who had their mask not covering their face. And I know these people are chanting and shouting. And I understand why, I understand exactly why, but I cannot be around a bunch of people who are chanting, and shouting, and screaming, even though I want to be, that's where my heart is. ANL: It's true. Justin stayed in for most of the protests. The first one he went to was the big one in LA for the Black Lives Matter at the Pride Black Lives Matter, he went to that one. And he showed pictures, they were like this. But they were all masked. And he went and got tested and all of them tested negative. So, I'm thinking maybe protesting is not as bad as indoors. LB: Well, if you're outside and everybody is wearing a mask. I think with a lot of those protests for Black Lives Matter protests, you can count on those people being very careful and not wanting, not getting close if they can avoid it, and I know these people didn't do it either. But you don't need a lot of people to infect a big group. You have one person can infect a lot of people and it doesn't matter if you're wearing a mask. ANL: And not only that, saying something isn't easy either because you always have to wonder what's going to happen if I say something to someone to wear a mask, are they going to try to punch me. LB: Yeah, no kidding. ANL: My stress just goes -- LB: I know. ANL: Because I hate, I couldn't stand being there watching this young mother have her baby, neither of them masked, in the middle of the store, I wanted to shake her. And you just have to like put your hands under here and go no, can't do it, can't do it these days. It's horrifying, I find it, because I'm a mom. LB: I know. ANL: And the baby, if you don't want to wear it, fine. The baby. LB: And even just the baby wearing the mask, it's other people. ANL: Yeah, breathing on him. LB: And if you have a -- when we are talking about opening schools and stuff, how can -- I have a friend who's a pediatrician and she had people ask her, moms ask her, is it okay for my kid to go to daycare and she said, "Well, let me ask you this. When your kid goes to daycare, do they ever get a cold from anybody else at daycare, or the flu, or any other thing?" They get everything at daycare. ANL: Turbo germs. I call them turbo germs. LB: Yeah, it's tough to put your life on hold but maybe you need to find something else to do for a year or two. ANL: Florida opened daycare on July 8. What they did down there is the daycares closed in March, but they were still charging. So, my daughter said, I'm not going to pay, she withdrew them. But a lot of parents had done that, they still held the slots. When school opened on July 8, the rule was that the children couldn't have backpacks and they had to be dropped at the door. The parents were not allowed into the school to see what precautions were being taken, to see how the children were being set up. My daughter was like, are they crazy. She's like I want to go in there and see what they're doing. But evidently throughout Florida the parents in daycare have no idea what's going on. LB: I just don't see how they can possibly -- if you've got one infected kid or a teacher that's infected, how they can keep that from happening to other people. ANL: Holidays, how are they going to go on holidays? I have -- maybe it's because I'm a person of color, I believe this is like his own private genocide. This is their way of getting rid of brown people, Black people, poor people, they don't care. It's like clear it out, we'll buy up the real estate. It sounds very harsh and I know it's like -- but that's how I feel. LB: I totally understand. I understand exactly what you mean. I've interviewed a lot of people and this is my third COVID interview, but I interview ten people about HIV/AIDS during the epidemic, and these were older guys, mostly men, three women and seven men, who lived through the AIDS epidemic. And they were talking about it in relation to COVID too. And I have to tell you Anita, that although you see people acting stupid, people that we really know are not acting stupid. I mean, these guys are not acting stupid, you and Daniel aren't acting stupid, your kids aren't acting foolishly, so there is an unfortunate segment of the population who's a bunch of carriers. ANL: And they don't believe it. And they don't believe it. I mean, if you go into your physician you're whole life, and they've always been amazing to you, and they tell you you have COVID, and you turn around and tell them they're lying, what mind games does he play on people? It's so beyond my capability to understand how these people are so enraptured by that. He's Jim Jones. LB: Yeah, it's really true. It's really frightening. Well, we're coming to the end of this. We've been talking for an hour almost. And I just want to, let's see if I've gotten all of these questions, I think we've covered everything here. I'm so excited about your garden, I can't wait to hear more about it. Do you have anything else you -- so think about this way, someday, someday in the future, somebody is going to look back on this way past perhaps our lives, because we don't have any information about what happened to people on a person to person circumstance with regard to the flu epidemic of 1918, which is comparable to this, where millions of people, millions, in the 50 million people died. And we didn't have any information about that and I think it's important for us to leave information behind to perhaps educate people about not making this kind of mistake in the future. Now, in the future, people may look at this and go, we have this vaccine, or they might go, yeah, half the population is gone now, or who knows. What do you want to tell those people, those people thirty, or forty, or fifty years from now who are people like your age or people your kids' ages, what do you think? ANL: That we weren't crazy. We weren't speaking hyperbolically. We were truth tellers. And it's hard, I think, for people like us to understand people so full of hate and so full of anger. And it's beyond me. And I always thought America pulled together. America was always the country, I'm sorry, that pulled together. (crying) And we're not. LB: But you know what? I think this is the problem, the pulling together requires people being present and right now the people who care the most about other people can't be present. Because I can't come and hug you. I can't come and hug and we can't, this group of people who is going to protest for Black Lives Matter. And the Black Lives Matter stuff has been great. I have to say the people who are speaking out about that have been very significant. But those people have to be really careful. Justin can't go and he won't go to every one of those things because it puts other people at risk. And he is a caring person. ANL: Yeah, it hurts. It hurts a lot. I do what I can but how much can we do? There's no -- I feel like we're screaming at the tops of our lungs and no one is listening. Yeah, and it does, it takes you to very dark places sometimes. And this isn't my America. There's a movie, it's an old one, I'm an old movie fanatic, White Cliffs of Dover. LB: What is it called? White Cliffs of Dover. Okay. ANL: White Cliffs of Dover. And at the end American troops are marching through England, we saved the day, and it leaves you feeling so happy. And it's like that's not us anymore. And it made me cry, it made me really cry for something we lost. LB: Yeah. But here's something I always say about WWII films, because that's a WWII film. ANL: Yeah, it sure is. LB: WWII films, there's two kinds of films, there are the films that they made during the war when they didn't know whether they were going to win. Like Since You Went Away with Claudette CoLBert is a great example of that. So, it's a real movie to encourage people to do the right thing. And then there's movies that were made after the war when they knew we were going to win. And they're a different kind of movie. It's a different kind of patriotism. But both of those things were made to make people more strong in regard to their patriotism. And the problem is that creative people, I mean, right now it's harder for them to make a movie about -- you know, we've only been dealing with this since March. ANL: Yeah. LB: If you look at like the flu epidemic of 1918, which I talk about a lot, my grandmother died in that flu epidemic, but in 1918 mostly young people got it. Mostly young people who were -- not kids, but people from twenty to forty years old. And that flu epidemic was -- it lasted for fifteen months and then it disappeared because it mutated and just disappeared. But one out of every three people in the world had that flu. And we're only into what, six months of this, so far. ANL: Yeah, we're still at the beginning. LB: And people want it to be over so bad. People feel that way about war too. They're like, we want the war to end right away, and they want it that -- they expect WWII, they were expecting that in both WWII, WWI, Civil War, that it would end in three months or four months, and it doesn't. And I do think that we have a chance for hope. We've got some amazing young people, we've got every person, every real scientist in the world is working on this epidemic. That's one of the things that people who lived through the AIDS epidemic that I just interviewed compared to this. Because the AIDS epidemic, it was years before anybody did anything. ANL: Yeah, that's so true. It's so true. LB: Even though we have somebody in the White House that is not very smart, and that's a generous thing to say. ANL: (laughs) That's very kind of you. LB: People all over the country and the majority of people, quite frankly, I think, who are aware that this is very, very serious. And it's shocking to see. It's the people who are out doing stupid things are the people who are stupid. The smart people are in their houses. And that's one of the problems I think too. ANL: Yeah, well, I firmly believe Darwin should just do his thing right now. LB: Yeah, except for there's collateral damage. ANL: Yeah, they talk to us too. That's the bad part. But anyway, hopefully soon we can go back to a new normal. LB: I hope so. Let's hope so. And I think we will actually. I hope that we'll learn from this, at least for a while. ANL: I don't think we can go through this again in our lifetimes. I think this is my full. I could not go through this again. LB: I really agree, but you think about people in WWI and then they had to do WWII. So, they had to do that in their own lifetimes. And they were in countries that were being attacked. There's a kitty. ANL: That's my baby. LB: There's another person in your house. That's a beautiful cat. What's your cat's name? ANL: Aslan. The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. LB: There you go. ANL: He used to have a mane. LB: I am going to turn off the record button now. But thank you again so much for your involvement in this. It's been so great. END OF AUDIO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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01:05:15
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Anita Niles-Lee, July 13, 2020
Description
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Anita discusses how the COVID-19 pandemic is affecting her and her family; how her family has experienced racism and the rise of racism during the pandemic; keeping in touch with her family; the Black Lives Matter movement; stepping down from PFLAG; and gardening.
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PH40_18
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
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2020-07-13
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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https://lgbt.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/91611205b1e4106dcef8650afa8cff87.png
76e8fc50278704a9b7c966399a76f204
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
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In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Liz Bradbury
Interviewee
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Miles Molerio
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_19.xml
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5.4 July 27, 2020 Miles Molerio, July 27, 2020 PH40_19 00:57:35 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Miles Molerio Liz Bradbury video/mpeg MolerioMiles_20200727_video.mp4 1.0:|23(12)|42(14)|71(8)|96(13)|129(5)|162(7)|191(7)|214(8)|243(3)|264(10)|289(14)|322(5)|349(9)|372(18)|397(8)|426(5)|451(10)|472(12)|495(3)|514(7)|535(15)|562(2)|583(11)|606(9)|639(12)|662(13)|697(3)|726(9)|763(6)|794(3)|825(14)|856(12)|881(16)|906(4)|929(11)|952(12)|973(14)|992(8)|1013(13)|1042(13)|1067(11)|1088(13)|1111(14)|1138(4)|1163(3)|1190(18)|1213(2)|1222(10)|1241(2)|1278(7)|1309(17)|1336(13)|1369(4)|1398(9)|1421(12)|1450(10)|1489(9)|1506(5) 0 https://youtu.be/QQWZgibNMfE YouTube video 0 Interview Introduction LB: So, with this project, Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and Trexler Library at the Muhlenberg College will collect forty years of public health experience in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community, collecting and curating local GBT health experiences from HIV AIDS to COIVD-19. My name is Liz Bradbury, and I’m here with Miles Molerio -- is that right? 0 224 Quarantining with friends' family during pandemic MM: So, I’ve been quarantining with my friend, Sarah, and her family, after my college forced us all to leave. 
 ; 
 ; LB: I see. Oh, so you’ve been there a long time then?
 ; 
 ; MM: I’ve been here since March. 
 ; 0 266 Graduating from Moravian University and working as the school's mascot LB: And now, you’re getting ready to go to graduate school. But have you been working or --
 ; 
 ; MM: Kind of. Well, I was still in school, technically, online, for Moravian. I’ve been doing some promotional work for them as the mascot, making videos and whatever the media department needed because I --
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 ; LB: So, tell me what the mascot is. 0 336 Completing school online MM: Not really. I have some issues with light sensitivity, so being on the computer for hours and hours -- migraines, headaches. I had a couple accommodations with the college, but it wasn’t really working, since everything was online. So, I just kind of suffered, and pulled through it, and got my grades, and left. 0 408 Staying in touch with others MM: Yeah, so, especially being a graduating student -- and I work a lot for my college. There’s a lot of things that didn’t get to happen. I was an RA as well, a resident advisor, so I had a lot of students I oversaw. They were really sad that we weren’t together anymore. So, we get together just about every week and do a little face call and speak to each other, just check in how everyone’s doing. Just a lot of FaceTiming and calling people. 0 514 Discussing "Zoom bombing" MM: It was a large group when school was still in session. A lot of my residents are music majors, so they had an online composers concert, where they were able to play music files of what the kids were composing to at least get them some kind of concert. I was there watching, supporting my friends and my former residents, and some guy hacked into the Zoom call and started saying the N word and writing the N word all over the place on the screen. 
 ; 0 715 Staying in touch with aunt/Aunt's and mom's reactions to being trans/Staying in touch with family MM: I have a brother. I have an older brother. But yeah.
 ; 
 ; LB: But you have aunts and uncles that you’re having good -- I remember that, actually, that you had some -- a particularly cool aunt. Is that true? 
 ; 
 ; MM: My Aunt Debbie, yeah.
 ; 0 935 Biggest concerns for self and LGBT community during pandemic MM: [...] Because my biggest concern for myself was my mental health, and I think that also transcribes over to the whole community, as a whole. It’s so, so rough. I’m very energetic -- as you know -- person. I’m a very personable person. I like to be around people, my friends, hang out. I don’t get to anymore. FaceTiming and talking on the phone is one thing. But I miss just sitting and hanging out with my friends, and I don’t know, playing video games or just talking. Just being around people that are different than the ones I’m living with. 
 ; 0 1099 Thoughts on Dr. Rachel Levine MM: I very much appreciate her. I love seeing the updates that she puts up. I follow all that on Facebook, so I get the updates on COVID in Pennsylvania, so I know what’s going on when I go back soon. Especially in the day of social media, I think it’s a little -- you know what’s going on with her, and people are being so horrific toward her for just being trans. 0 1230 Using queer data and hookup apps during the pandemic MM: I think it’s so funny because I’ve had these apps. I know people have the very queer-centric ones, like the really gay-centric and the queer-centric ones. I’ve tried those ; I don’t like them. Not enough people. 0 1339 Location during the pandemic/Friends' parents working in the health industry during the pandemic/Opening of schools in Hampton, Massachusetts LB: So, are you going out, or are you pretty much staying in? Or what about the other people in the -- where you are, in the house? Are they pretty much staying in? Are people at risk? Or what do you think about that? 
 ; 
 ; MM: We have all pretty much stayed here ever since March. The only person who’s really been out of the house has been my friend’s mom and dad because her dad owns his own health business. He actually owns a company that sells the technology for telehealth. 0 1498 Sharing ads for LGBT events online MM: Not really. I share a lot of stuff. When I see that there’s events going on for queer folks, I share it on my social media because I have a lot of friends and queer friends, and kind of share that with them. 0 1563 Going out during the pandemic LB: Golly. So, do you go to the store? So, the mom goes to the store and just brings food in, and you’re just there like, “Thank you very much?”
 ; 
 ; MM: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; LB: Have you gone to McDonald’s?
 ; 
 ; MM: She goes to the grocery store. Huh?
 ; 0 1624 Concern over friends' family going on vacation in the middle of the pandemic/Experience living in Hampton, MA MM: They went to North Carolina. They have a beachfront down there. So, they’re doing their best to socially distance as much as possible. It’s their home. So, they brought their own groceries, their own cleaning supplies, everything, just to not have to go out. The more southern you go, the more spikes there are. 
 ; 0 1737 Passing the time with reading and restoring a/learning the saxophone MM: Yeah, I bought some books recently. My boss for my job at Lehigh, my graduate assistantship, sent me some books for student leadership, student affairs kind of stuff. I’ve been catching up on some hobbies. The only kind of thing I actually went out to do is I went to a barn sale. 
 ; 0 1960 Biggest frustration during the pandemic/Biggest fear during the pandemic MM: [...] I think my most frustration is when I see people not abiding by any social distancing things. I had to go to the grocery store before my friend’s parents left, and we’re in the grocery store, and they have they have the signs “you must wear a mask.” And there’s people wearing masks, and I think the most frustrating thing is when people have the masks on --
 ; 0 2161 Point of hope during the pandemic MM: Hope and strength right now is every time I look up Moderna and they’re phase three of the vaccine. I keep very on top of the vaccine info. I don’t just watch the news, see what they say. I go look it up and see what the actual companies are saying and what the reports are looking like. That’s the only thing really giving me a lot of hope, is that they’re going into phase three of the trial. And after phase three, so close to get (inaudible) out to the public. 0 2236 Having an anti-mask friend MM: I do. I don’t know why we’re friends, but we are. She has been good to me, respectful of me. And we’re opposite on the political spectrum. She’s my age. Actually, she’s younger. I know. It’s strange. We’ve always been kind to one another. Great friend of mine. And always respectful towards one another. But she, on Facebook -- oh my God. 0 2361 Thoughts on why some people are skeptical about pandemic precautions/Developing an open-minded point-of-view through a college education MM: I think it’s based off of where you’re raised. You grow up in a household that is particularly Republican or very right-winged, you learn from your parents. I could say the same thing. My parents were hateful. My parents said the N word.
 ; 
 ; LB: You’re not like that.
 ; 0 2551 Discussing centrist stances on racism MM: And there’s no place for middle ground anymore. Either you’re on one side, or the other. You can’t be in the middle anymore because being in the middle is just as bad as being racist.
 ; 
 ; LB: What’s the middle?
 ; 
 ; MM: Omnipotence and just oblivious, like I don’t see color kind of people. 
 ; 
 ; LB: Such a crock that is. I don’t see color. 0 2638 Being considerate to the health of others/Knowing of people who have contracted Covid-19 LB: It would be hard, I think, for your friend that you -- all of you are sort of getting on her and saying, “You’re talking about killing our friend. How can we just overlook that?” I think that’s a pretty effective way of making an argument. 
 ; 
 ; MM: We have tried. I think she’s just so thick-skilled. I don’t understand how people just can’t have compassion for another human being. 0 2783 Thoughts on Black Lives Matter MM: It is as white as eggs on toast up here. But surprisingly enough, for this little area, where there are quite a bit of Trump posters and things, there was a Black Lives Matter protest in a city. So, a little city. Barely a city. A little area that we actually drove out to a couple weeks ago. And it was a very peaceful protest. It was led by African American community members. 0 2962 Attending Lehigh University as a graduate student during the pandemic MM: So, Lehigh has said they are doing mainly online classes. They’re sending out a more detailed plan on August 3 of exactly how they’re doing things. I know two of my classes are online. 0 3095 Cooking while friends' parents are away/Emotional support cat, Magic LB: So, if you’re all by yourself there, how many more days do you have to be all by yourself there?
 ; 
 ; MM: The rest of this week. My friend’s parents will be coming back at the end of the week. So, I’m just here by myself until then.
 ; 
 ; LB: So, what’s for dinner?
 ; 
 ; MM: Tacos. 
 ; 
 ; LB: If you run out of food, what are you going to do? 
 ; 0 3220 Thoughts for the future/Conclusion MM: Oh, geez. I think the most important kind of emotions to put forth in the future -- like I’ve been saying, this is going to happen again. This is going to happen again. Maybe someone’s going to look at this when it is happening again with a different virus, or a different disease, or type of global emergency. I think the best thing, the most important thing to understand, is the need for the human compassion. 0 MovingImage Miles Molerio talks about how the current COVID-19 pandemic is affecting him. He talks about leaving college early, having to stay with a friend’s family for 5 months, how the virus is affecting him and other members of the Transgender community, and what is bothering him the most. Miles Molerio 2020-07-27 LIZ BRADBURY: Let me turn this on. Okay. And I pinned you? Yeah. That's good. I'm going to turn this (inaudible). Okay. I'm good. So, here's the stuff. I'm sorry that's a waste of that time. So, with this project, Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and Trexler Library at the Muhlenberg College will collect forty years of public health experience in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community, collecting and curating local GBT health experiences from HIV AIDS to COIVD-19. My name is Liz Bradbury, and I'm here with Miles Molerio -- is that right? MILES MOLERIO: There you go. LB: To talk to him about his experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of the COVID-19 pandemic, as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT community archive. We're meeting on Zoom on July 27 -- Monday, July 27. And thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start, can you please state your full name and spell it for me? MM: Okay. My name is Miles Elliot Molerio, so M-I-L-E-S, E-L-L-I-O-T, M-O-L-E-R-I-O. LB: And please share your birthdate. MM: My birthdate is April 15, 1998. LB: And what town are you in? You said you were in Massachusetts right now? MM: I'm currently in Hampton, Massachusetts. LB: Oh, in Hampton, where Smith is, right? Oh, no. That's Northampton. That's different. Okay, this is the consent portion. Do you consent to this interview today? MM: Yes. LB: Oops. That's the wrong page. Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable formats? MM: Yes. LB: Do you consent to the LGBT archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats, including films, archives, articles, websites, presentations, and other things we may not even know about today? MM: Yes. LB: Do you understand that you'll have thirty days after your electronic -- after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview and identify parts you would like to delete and, or withdraw from your interview from the project? MM: Yes. LB: So, let me see. All right. So, this is some identity stuff. What is your zip code of the place where you live? Because you live in Bethlehem, right? MM: Yes. Oh, God. It just changed: 18018. LB: That's close enough. What's your age? MM: I am twenty-two. LB:nOh, okay. How do you identify within the LGBT community, i.e., trans, gay, lesbian, bi, trans, pan, (inaudible), that kind of stuff? MM: I identify as trans and queer. LB: You don't have to talk about these if you don't want to, but here are some general things for us to consider. Let's talk about this now. So, right now, during COVID pandemic, you are in some -- you are someplace. And are you with somebody? Who's in the house with you? MM: So, I've been quarantining with my friend, Sarah, and her family, after my college forced us all to leave. LB: I see. Oh, so you've been there a long time then? MM: I've been here since March. LB: Holy moly. How terrific that these people let you do this. You're indebted to them for the rest of your life. MM: Oh, it even goes further. (laughs) LB: They'll be talking about this for the rest of your life, that they had to put up with this. Well, how great that they're doing that. Isn't that wonderful? So, you just graduated from Moravian at the end of this -- the year, so to speak, and you're all done there? MM: Yes. I am officially done with them. LB: And now, you're getting ready to go to graduate school. But have you been working or -- MM: Kind of. Well, I was still in school, technically, online, for Moravian. I've been doing some promotional work for them as the mascot, making videos and whatever the media department needed because I -- LB: So, tell me what the mascot is. MM: (laughs) Our mascot is Amos the Greyhound. So, I have a big Greyhound costume in the house. LB: So, you brought it with you? MM: I was asked to bring it with me. LB: Oh, how funny. MM: So, I've been doing that. Because before the college shut down, we made a COVID about what not to do, what to do, how to wash your hands, all that kind of stuff. So, I had it with me, and they're like, "Take it home. Make some videos. We'll pay you." LB: Oh, good. And did you have to do schoolwork from -- your college work from where you were? MM: Yeah, I had to do everything from here on the computer. LB: Did that work out okay for you? Or what do you think? MM: Not really. I have some issues with light sensitivity, so being on the computer for hours and hours -- migraines, headaches. I had a couple accommodations with the college, but it wasn't really working, since everything was online. So, I just kind of suffered, and pulled through it, and got my grades, and left. LB: Really? So, you finished though, so that's good. That's really good. Because I just want to say, for prosperity, because I hope that somebody in the future, people will see this, that you were an intern at the Bradbury-Sullivan Center, and you worked in the department that I am in charge of. So, I've known you for a long time, relatively. And that was a long time ago, actually. But I haven't really seen you to talk to since then. So, I'm so happy that I get to talk to you now. MM: Yeah, it's awesome. LB: So, you were just talking about being away from people, and I really would like you to talk about that. I think it's a significant thing to say that you're away from folks now and you've been communicating with your family, which I guess is on -- I just want everybody to know that Miles has the greatest demonstrative face in the United States. So, you can always know what Miles is thinking by looking at it, and it's brilliant, I think. I think you could see it through the Greyhound costume. But I really would love you to talk about what it's like communicating with others on the phone, or online, or on video. You're probably talking to friends that you graduated -- talk about that a little bit. MM: Yeah, so, especially being a graduating student -- and I work a lot for my college. There's a lot of things that didn't get to happen. I was an RA as well, a resident advisor, so I had a lot of students I oversaw. They were really sad that we weren't together anymore. So, we get together just about every week and do a little face call and speak to each other, just check in how everyone's doing. Just a lot of FaceTiming and calling people. Lots of friends. A lot of my family, like my aunts and uncles, who I still talk to. They check in a lot to see how I'm doing. A lot of letter writing. It's back into style. LB: Wow. MM: Postcards, and letter writing, and all that kind of stuff, just to have some kind of form of contact. It's been really good, for the most part. There's been a couple of the times where -- I don't know if you've heard of it, but we've experienced the Zoom bombing. LB: Yeah, sure. MM: We've had couple times where -- LB:So, groups? Talk about that. MM:It was a large group when school was still in session. A lot of my residents are music majors, so they had an online composers concert, where they were able to play music files of what the kids were composing to at least get them some kind of concert. I was there watching, supporting my friends and my former residents, and some guy hacked into the Zoom call and started saying the N word and writing the N word all over the place on the screen. We had to schedule it, and redo it, and put passwords, and all sorts of stuff. It was really horrific. I actually didn't go to my Zoom classes for the rest of the week because I didn't want that to happen again. I was kind of scared. It was awful. LB: And I'm about to do a big training next week that -- for The Children's Home of Easton, which is a -- and it's not that big. It's about forty people all together. It's two trainings, actually. But do you think if there had been a waiting room for that, that would've kept that from happening? Was the Zoom link published somewhere? Thirty years from now, people are going to go, "Why didn't they just use the franistan [sic] and keep this from happening?" Because we're just not used to that now, and this kind of stuff is happening. Or the iris recognition or something that you would do. MM: I can't really blame the faculty member who tried to put the concert together. He was just trying to get something for his students. He's a ninety-year-old professor, who somehow was able to learn Zoom. LB: Don't be ageist. MM: (laughs) His name is Dr. Lipkis. Very nice guy. Just not very tech savvy. LB: Okay, you can say that. MM: But he was just trying to put together something for the students. And we all had to rush to learn Zoom and this kind of stuff. I wouldn't blame any one of them. LB: So, this was just at the beginning then? MM: Yeah, this was just in the beginning, around end of March, beginning of April. LB: So, as people are much more careful, and I have actually set up a waiting room for this, and they have to check through every person so that -- and then also that they'll be identified, so that if somebody does something naughty, it will show who it is. And these are employees. But yeah, who would know that that kind of horrible thing would happen? Terrible thing. I'm sorry that that happened to you. It must've been very devastating for the ones who did this music. Did they do it again? MM: Yeah, we stopped it, and then we did a different day with a password-set Zoom link, and it was restricted. A lot more restricted. LB: I see. MM: So, we got it working eventually. LB: Creepy though. Do you have brothers and sisters? MM: I have a brother. I have an older brother. But yeah. LB: But you have aunts and uncles that you're having good -- I remember that, actually, that you had some -- a particularly cool aunt. Is that true? MM: My Aunt Debbie, yeah. LB: So, you've been having communication with her? And do you have Zoom with her, or do you just chat on text or over the phone? MM: We just talk over the phone. That's what we've been doing ever since she's kind of stepped in as my mom. So, we just call on the phone and check in, just see how everything's doing, how everyone's doing. LB: Do you want to say why that is, that you had to have somebody step in as your mom? You don't have to if you don't want to talk about it. MM: I'm fine with it. My mom was just -- didn't really understand the whole trans thing. We tried talking with therapists and counselors, so it was a mediated conversation. She didn't really care how I felt. She was more, "This is hurting me. You're making me feel bad." All this. Trying to blame me for it, and about her feelings. I just refused to talk to her, really, for the rest of my college career. She would try to reach out. I would answer with a one-word answer. And my aunt was kind of like -- she's the baby child of her -- of my mom, her sister, and her other sister. And she works in the health field, so she has a bit more of an understanding. Her boss is actually a surgeon, who does transgender-related surgeries, who is trans. LB: Wow. MM: So, she was -- had a lot easier connection of trying to understand, and learning. So, she's kind of the one who stepped in to help me. Just basic things that you would call your mom for, like I don't feel too well. What should I do? Or how do I do taxes? Those kind of conversations and things. And some place to go for Christmas and spend Christmas with family. LB: So, you go to her house? Or is that the deal? MM: Yeah, I've gone to her house every year for Christmas. LB: I see. And since the virus has happened, have you talked to family members about how they've been coping with that too? I mean, in some ways, since it's so much more the norm to talk to people on FaceTime, you're getting more FaceTime with some people. That happen? MM: Yeah. I have a lot of aunts, so definitely, I check in with them a lot, especially my aunts on my dad's side, who -- we didn't really have a good connection. So, we get to talk a lot more now. We do a lot of letter writing between each other, and FaceTiming, and calling. They're doing okay. A lot of them like it because a couple of them are very antisocial to begin with. So, they're like, "I love this. This is great. I can stay in my house all day, and I don't have to explain it to anyone." (laughs) My one aunt, Debbie, hates it, because she works in the health field. She works in a hospital, so it's a little bit scary for her because her hospital had the first COVID case for her region in New York. LB: Oh, she's in New York? Oh, golly. MM: Yeah, she's in Mahopac, New York. So, it's not the center of the city, but it's still New York. LB: Yeah, it's different. It's different there. So, what's your biggest concern during the pandemic? What do you think is a biggest concern for you, and then also for the LGBT community, and sort of in general, the whole queer community? MM: I think those two, for me, go in together. Because my biggest concern for myself was my mental health, and I think that also transcribes over to the whole community, as a whole. It's so, so rough. I'm very energetic -- as you know -- person. I'm a very personable person. I like to be around people, my friends, hang out. I don't get to anymore. FaceTiming and talking on the phone is one thing. But I miss just sitting and hanging out with my friends, and I don't know, playing video games or just talking. Just being around people that are different than the ones I'm living with. LB: And this is your interview, but I have to interject something here. I have to say that when I left college and I went to graduate school, and I did what you did -- I went right to graduate school -- I had really dear friends and -- that I really -- that are -- I'm still friends with and that I still communicate with. And one of them was a wonderful, wonderful person, who I spent every day with the entire time I was in college. We were really pals. And we're still friends, and we still talk. But when you leave college, your whole life changes. Because otherwise, you're with those people. You're living with them every day. So, leaving college, I mean, the fact that you have -- because I didn't see that person again for 10 years. I didn't see her. I mean, I talked to her and I wrote a lot of letters, but I didn't see her again for 10 years. So, at least when you have Zoom, you can -- you've already seen your people a whole bunch of times since college was over. And it is kind of wonderful. She ended up living in Indiana for a while, and then in New Orleans. Really, I can count on my hand the number of times that I've seen her since 1979. And it's sad because I could never talk to her. And she doesn't like Zoom, which sucks, because I would actually love to talk to her on Zoom. You're lucky that -- in a lot of ways, that in a way, people intentionally trying to stay hooked up in this visual way. They might not even be doing that if it weren't for COVID. So, good for you that you're keeping up with that. That's been a good thing. So, let me ask you about being able to see Dr. Rachel Levine on -- you know who she is. It's our wonderful secretary now, of course. Well, do you want to talk about seeing her and how that's made you feel, and in general, how you felt about her being the voice of Governor Wolf's offices? MM: I very much appreciate her. I love seeing the updates that she puts up. I follow all that on Facebook, so I get the updates on COVID in Pennsylvania, so I know what's going on when I go back soon. Especially in the day of social media, I think it's a little -- you know what's going on with her, and people are being so horrific toward her for just being trans. But she's doing a phenomenal job reporting the health data and keeping everyone updated. I think it's just ridiculous. Even if she wasn't a trans woman, I think that people would still find a way to pick on whoever it was because they're not happy about being told what to do. I think it's awful what people are saying about her. I know there was that incident at that fair, where they had her -- someone dressed like her in a dunk tank. She's putting her neck out there, doing all this research, and making sure we're all safe and healthy, so we can open everything again and go back to normal life. People are just being babies, and picking on her, and being awful. LB: And really, for the most part, it's really anti-minority, picking on her. Here's a person, who's a brilliant scientist and capable of giving us -- and they're not picking on the information. And truthfully, if they disagree with her policies, that's one thing. Everybody has the right to that. This is just how she looks. It's ridiculous. And it's all based in transphobia, and misogyny, and stuff like that. It's terrible. Let's see. I already said that. Oh, here's a good one. Are you spending any time on queer dating or hookup apps? (laughs) MM: Oh, God. I can't lie. Yeah. (laughter) LB: You don't have to lie. And you won't be the only one that said yes. MM: I think it's so funny because I've had these apps. I know people have the very queer-centric ones, like the really gay-centric and the queer-centric ones. I've tried those ; I don't like them. Not enough people. Maybe I should try them now. I don't know. But I have the standard Tinder and Bumble, and that's it. I hate Tinder, so I haven't touched it, and I think I got rid of it recently. And then Bumble -- I think it's nicer. There's a lot more people on all of them now. LB: I bet. So, is that giving you enough ability to hook up with other queer people? Or does that not matter as much to you, as long as they're queer friendly? Or what do you think? MM: It doesn't really matter to me, long as they're queer friendly. I don't really get to see people. I wouldn't do a date or whatever because of social distancing. No. I'm fine with just talking with people and communicating with people on the phone. I'm not trying to be going out there, doing a date or a hookup. No. That's totally out of the question. That's defying all of the science that we've all been seeing. Come on. No. LB: So, you're in Hampton, Massachusetts. And where is that, say, in relation to the state? Is it near Boston? Or is it right in the middle of the state? Is it near Northampton? MM: It's right in the middle of the state. It's very woodsy. A lot of back roads ; not a lot of main roads. I think the most city I've seen is a little area with a Wendy's and a McDonald's. That's about it. LB: So, are you going out, or are you pretty much staying in? Or what about the other people in the -- where you are, in the house? Are they pretty much staying in? Are people at risk? Or what do you think about that? MM: We have all pretty much stayed here ever since March. The only person who's really been out of the house has been my friend's mom and dad because her dad owns his own health business. He actually owns a company that sells the technology for telehealth. So, he's in charge of a lot of that. And he has to go to the office because everyone's relying on telehealth now for doctor visits and such. But he's done it in a way where he goes one day, someone else goes the next day, so there's only one person in the office. So, just kind of staging it out nicely. And my friend's mom's a school nurse. LB: Oh, golly. Oh. Oh, could there be a worse job? MM: Yeah, during all this. She's a school nurse for a Catholic school. And they haven't really been giving her much guidance or money for buying PPE and supplies for the start of the school year. So, she's having to do her own research, and has to go out and buy her own PPE and things. LB: Is it open? MM: Hmm? LB: The school's going to open? MM: The schools here are going to open. That's what she's been told. She doubts that it's going to actually open. She thinks they're going to close them beforehand. LB: I think that's true. Trish was going to her regular doctor that's the specialist because Trish has lupus. And she went to the doctor, and the doctor just said, "Don't worry about schools opening. They're not going to open." MM: No way. LB: Because if we have a spike, how can you already have a spike? You can't say, "Well, it's okay." MM: Yeah, I don't know. I leave the science up to Dr. Levine, and I listen to what she says. (laughs) LB: So, it's certainly affecting your life. So, have you been doing any new queer activities online? It sounds like you try to avoid being online too much but -- because of too much flashback. Have you said, "Oh, look at this site," or something, or, "Hey, the Bradbury-Sullivan Center has all these cool things"? MM: Not really. I share a lot of stuff. When I see that there's events going on for queer folks, I share it on my social media because I have a lot of friends and queer friends, and kind of share that with them. Especially being the former president of Moravian's LGBT club, I share a lot of that stuff with the new leadership, and they've been getting stuff together with the community, and sharing all that information with them, and having some type of -- they together monthly, just to check in on everyone and see how everyone's doing. But I haven't really been doing anything new. Just kind of sticking to my usual kind of stuff. LB: Do you go out for walks and stuff there or -- MM: Not really. A lot of the neighbors around here have a lot of dogs, and they don't keep them leashed. LB: Oh. MM: Also, there's a bear running around here. So, I don't really go outside much, because that bear keeps showing up in the backyard. Very, very woodsy. There' LB: (inaudible) MM: We live up a hill, and one of the neighbors has a Jeep, and he drives eighty miles per hour up the hill. So, I'm not about to get hit by a car. LB: Golly. So, do you go to the store? So, the mom goes to the store and just brings food in, and you're just there like, "Thank you very much?" MM: Yeah. LB: Have you gone to McDonald's? MM: She goes to the grocery store. Huh? LB: Have you gone to McDonald's, since they happen to have one in the town? MM: No. I have not gone to really anything, except for when I had to -- so, they're actually gone on vacation right now. To be honest, I'm not too happy about that. They're adults. I can't stop them. LB: Where did they go? MM: They went to North Carolina. They have a beachfront down there. So, they're doing their best to socially distance as much as possible. It's their home. So, they brought their own groceries, their own cleaning supplies, everything, just to not have to go out. The more southern you go, the more spikes there are. LB: I know. MM: So, I'm a little worried. I hope they don't come back and get me sick. Hopefully, they don't get sick. LB: Did your friend, Sarah, go too? MM: Hmm? LB: Did your friend, Sarah, go too? MM: No. She actually moved out recently. She wanted to move back to Bethlehem. They're back already. She has her own apartment and is settled there, which is -- LB: You're there with her parents? MM: Hmm? LB: Are you by yourself there? MM: I have the house by myself right now. LB: You've got the cat and the bear. MM: I've got the cats and the bear in the backyard. LB: Do you have a car? MM: No. LB: Oh, shit. (laughs) So, this is like a slasher movie. MM: Yeah. The doors are locked every night. There's a hammer under my pillow. (laughs) LB: Oh my gosh. MM: It's okay. The neighbors know I'm here. They know the neighbors ; the neighbors know I'm here. So, it is what it is. LB: Is it hot? It looks like there's an air conditioner in your window. MM: Yeah, we got a couple air conditioners. It's hot. It's not as hot as Bethlehem, but it's still hot up here. LB: So, are you bored? What are you doing? I mean, are you reading books and stuff or watching TV? MM: Yeah, I bought some books recently. My boss for my job at Lehigh, my graduate assistantship, sent me some books for student leadership, student affairs kind of stuff. I've been catching up on some hobbies. The only kind of thing I actually went out to do is I went to a barn sale. LB: Oh, yeah. Cool. MM: I went to a barn sale, and I bought an antique saxophone. LB: You did? MM: So, I've been restoring that as my way to pass the time. LB: Is it a marching saxophone? MM: Yeah, it's a vintage saxophone, French saxophone, from the 1950s. LB: Well, as long as it's not bent and you can put the new corks on, it should be okay. Had you played saxophone before? MM: Nope. LB: Oh. Did you play any other reed instrument before? MM: Nope. LB: I tried to learn to play the clarinet, and I have a saxophone, which I never was very good at. I told [Cindy Rodriguez?] I would give it to her because she wants to learn how to play it. And I said, "It's very hard to learn reed instruments later in life." You're pretty young. You should be able to do it. Don't wait until you're 40 or 50 because it's really hard to. MM: That's what's keeping me busy, giving me something to do. LB: So, are you watching YouTube videos and then going, "Okay, I'll try that?" Or did you have music and -- MM: Yeah, watching YouTube stuff. Trying it. A lot of my friends, like my friend who was living here before she moved out, they're all music majors. LB: Oh, I see. MM: So, I call them. I'm like, "Okay, you know saxophone. You don't have anywhere to student teach right now. We can share." LB: I was going to tell you the place where everybody gets their tool -- their saxophones and stuff. It's a place in Nazareth, Pennsylvania that's -- MM: Nazareth Music Shop. LB: You've heard of it? MM: Yep. I've been there. I called them. As soon as I get back to Pennsylvania, I'm taking the saxophone over there. LB: Yes. Yeah, yeah. They're really good. MM: Oh, fantastic. LB: They really are pros. And what they'll probably tell you is that you should get a different mouthpiece because if you have a better mouthpiece, it's easier to play it. It's really true. You think what? But it's definitely true. Well, good for you that you could be doing that. So, let me ask you this. Do you have a Bethlehem Library card? Or a library card any place in Pennsylvania? MM: I don't. LB: Well, too bad, because I just found out that you can access all of Philadelphia's library if you have any card from the State of Pennsylvania. And there's a lot of audiobooks. So, it's really fun to have. So, next time you're in there, get a card, because it's really fun. And plus, sometimes you can get books that you need to read. I had to read a book for a book club, and it turned out that they had the audio book. And so, I didn't have to read it. It was a good book. It was a book that our group at the community center was doing. And I'm way too lazy to read the whole book. I had other stuff I had to do. So, I'm like, if you're going to work in the garden and you can listen to the book at the same time, it's great. But I couldn't not do the garden stuff, so that was terrific. So, let's see. I asked you that. What's the biggest frustration you have, or the biggest fear you have? Maybe that's two different things or the same thing. MM: Those are very two different things for me. I think my most frustration is when I see people not abiding by any social distancing things. I had to go to the grocery store before my friend's parents left, and we're in the grocery store, and they have they have the signs "you must wear a mask." And there's people wearing masks, and I think the most frustrating thing is when people have the masks on -- LB: Great mask. (inaudible) MM: -- but do this. With the nose. It totally defeats the purpose. I don't understand. You see the picture on the box when you buy the masks. It's over the nose. I think that's the most frustrating thing because you're just so close to doing the right thing, but you're not there. And you're still getting people sick, or possibly getting someone sick. Just do that. LB: No kidding. MM: It's (inaudible) frustrating. LB: And so, that's a frustration. What about a fear? What's your biggest fear? MM: I think my biggest fear is that the people -- people want to go back to this normalcy. Normal wasn't working. That's the biggest fear. Normal wasn't working. Normal didn't have us prepared for a pandemic. This is not the last pandemic, with the way the Earth is burning and everything going. And this is definitely not the last time we're going to see something like this. And the normalcy everyone wants to go back to has ended up with hundreds of thousands of people dead. I think people wanting to go back to normal is very fearful because normal wasn't working and we need to do better for -- if something happens like this again, so hundreds of thousands of people don't die because of a virus that we have all this science for. But we can't get something under control, or we don't have enough compassion to just stay in our house for a couple months, or if you're going to go out, do it six feet apart with a cloth over your face. It's not a political thing. It's just being compassionate about other people's well being. I think that's the most scary part of all this: people don't care. LB: Yes. I've interviewed more than twenty people, twenty-two people. You're the twenty-second person. Every person has said that. I mean, everyone (inaudible) said the most frustrating thing is people just not taking care of people. And I think it's part of our queer community that -- I guess there are some people that don't feel this way, but for the most part, our queer community really doesn't want to make anybody else sick, for heaven's sakes, and wants people to just figure it out and do the right thing. So, yeah. Well, this is sort of a similar question. But what's giving you hope and strength right now? MM: Hope and strength right now is every time I look up Moderna and they're phase three of the vaccine. I keep very on top of the vaccine info. I don't just watch the news, see what they say. I go look it up and see what the actual companies are saying and what the reports are looking like. That's the only thing really giving me a lot of hope, is that they're going into phase three of the trial. And after phase three, so close to get (inaudible) out to the public. LB: You think people will okay? Now, when Trish went to the doctor, the doctor said, "If seventy percent of the public have the vaccine, that's the end of it." Because everybody, like us, who doesn't want to get it, will be protected, relatively well protected. And the people who are anti-vaxxers will either get it, but they won't be able to give it to anybody because we have the vaccine. But 70 percent will wipe out the thing. Do you know who are against vaccines or they don't think that -- do you know anybody that's like, "I don't think we should need to wear a mask," that you have a personal relationship with? MM: I do. I don't know why we're friends, but we are. She has been good to me, respectful of me. And we're opposite on the political spectrum. She's my age. Actually, she's younger. I know. It's strange. We've always been kind to one another. Great friend of mine. And always respectful towards one another. But she, on Facebook -- oh my God. Actually, we all got into a big fight with her on social media the other day because she was going on about her rights and how she doesn't need to wear a mask. But we're all friends with this kid on our campus, who has cancer. So, his immune system is shot, completely shot. And we were all like, "Are you kidding me? You know this. We all know this kid, who is a great musician. He has cancer. If you get him sick, you could kill him. You know him. You've worked with him. You know he's frickin' bald, chemoed [sic] out, completely fighting this, and still a fantastic pianist. And you guys work together in orchestras and ensembles, but you don't want to wear a mask when you go back to campus. But you could kill him." And we all kind of got on her case about it. I've never really seen her be anti-vaxxer, but very anti-mask, very, "It's my right." When people say, "My body, my choice," for the mask thing, it's so stupid. (laughs) LB: Not good. MM: It's so dumb. It breaks my heart more than angers me. She can be such a nice, smart person, but she chooses to think like that. LB: Why do you think people are like that? MM: I think it's based off of where you're raised. You grow up in a household that is particularly Republican or very right-winged, you learn from your parents. I could say the same thing. My parents were hateful. My parents said the N word. LB: You're not like that. MM: No, I had to unlearn that kind of stuff. You learn it as you're young, and then if you have -- you go into an environment where it's mixed of people, like college, you kind of learn, oh, I need to rethink biases and thing -- learn biases and learn habits that are not the entirety of the world. It's just my parents or this group of people, this small group of people. I think it's just a learned habit. I think hate's learned. LB: Well, I agree with you about that. I know somebody who was saying that -- he talks a lot about it. He's an older guy. Well, he's my age. And he was a music teacher for a long time, since we were talking about music. And he said that he's concerned about people who have to go to colleges where they cost so much money. It's such a huge amount of investment. He was saying that you could get a degree to teach music, or you could get the skills to teach music by just being at home and doing a year and a half program or something, and you could teach music. And I said to him, "I think that one of the things that saves us is going to college and changing your mind about stuff because you're away from a family, who may not have very open views." So, in effect, what you're saying is that kind of thing. And while it isn't really influencing the person that you were talking about, the other people are sort of getting it now, I think. You certainly have seen that about your life and -- over the time. Over time. If everything you'd done had been online school, that's tough, I think. MM: Yeah. The online schooling is just -- I don't -- it's not -- I think it depends on where you are doing your classes. My last semester, I took -- I was working on an Africana studies minor because that's a field I'm not very knowledgeable on. And if I want to work in student affairs, I need to know. So, I was taking a course on communism, and it was fantastic. And discussions in that class? Mind blowing. We were talking with the professor. This should be something that everyone is forced to take. The different conversations on immigration, and racial rights, and gender, and sexuality, and all this stuff. I think it's just something that students need to have, especially in this day and age with -- there's so much going on on the TV. All the turmoil. And there's no place for middle ground anymore. Either you're on one side, or the other. You can't be in the middle anymore because being in the middle is just as bad as being racist. LB: What's the middle? MM: Omnipotence and just oblivious, like I don't see color kind of people. LB: Such a crock that is. I don't see color. Don't see color because there isn't any there. I always talk about this meme that was a bunch of kids from the 1950s or something, and they were all saying the Pledge of Allegiance. And underneath it says, "Remember these days?" And my response was, "You mean when every kid was white?" And then this person who had put it up says, "I don't see color." I said, "Well, you don't see any color in this picture. They're all white. How could you not see that?" I didn't notice that everybody in this picture was white. Well, that's because you're white, for heaven sakes. And you think that that's the way it's supposed to be. MM: (laughs) That's good. That's a good one. LB: I don't see color. I have friends, who will say that, who are really okay people. And you just have to grab them by the lapels and say, "That's a racist thing to say. Cut it out. Don't say that. Don't say that." Sometimes, you have to yell at them. It would be hard, I think, for your friend that you -- all of you are sort of getting on her and saying, "You're talking about killing our friend. How can we just overlook that?" I think that's a pretty effective way of making an argument. MM: We have tried. I think she's just so thick skulled. I don't understand how people just can't have compassion for another human being. We're all just trying to exist, and live out through this pandemic, and get through the other side. We can't get through the other side with only fifty percent of people doing the work. Everyone has to do their part. And for the people who have shot immune systems, who are in that higher demographic of more likely to get this disease -- he actually caught COVID. The kid actually did. He's fine ; he got over it. But he did get it for the fourteen days. LB: Oh, I was going to ask you if you'd known anybody that had had it. So, this was a person. Have you known anybody else that's had it, or been close to people that had it or died, or know people who have died, or something like that? MM: The only person I did know was the student I was talking about. My friend's parents, on the other hand, that I'm staying with, a lot of their friends got it and died. People (inaudible) school with. There was a lot of stuff in the newspaper, I remember. Because I sit and talk to my friend's mom a lot. She's really cool. LB: You meant the (inaudible)? MM: My friend's mom, yeah. The mom here in this house. LB: The one (inaudible). MM: A lot of parents around. But there was a couple friends that they went to high school with, who passed away, and were about their age, in their fifties. LB: I mean, you want to listen to that and you want to say things like , "Well, were they sick?" Well, that's not really the point. It doesn't matter whether they were sick. It doesn't matter how old they were. People get sick. You don't know (inaudible). MM: (inaudible) LB: And some people, who are perfectly well, get sick. To other people, it's terrible. It's a terrible situation. So, we've asked about that. And let's see. So, let me ask you about Black Lives Matter. I want to have everybody give an opportunity to talk about that or anything about -- if you want to talk about politics, that's okay. I mean, you cannot separate that from what we're doing right now. But talk about Black Lives Matter, if you want to. MM: Absolutely. LB: Are you aware of that, where you are? I would guess that everybody's white there. MM: Oh, yeah. LB: I'm from New England. I know what it's like. MM: It is as white as eggs on toast up here. But surprisingly enough, for this little area, where there are quite a bit of Trump posters and things, there was a Black Lives Matter protest in a city. So, a little city. Barely a city. A little area that we actually drove out to a couple weeks ago. And it was a very peaceful protest. It was led by African American community members. So, they had the stage. They had the voice. It was very respectful. People were social distancing away from each other. Everyone had masks. They had masks and hand sanitizer there, and gloves, if the people wanted it. There was a lot of speakers from the community, all African American in some way, shape, or form. Young, old. Everybody you could imagine had a voice at that. Parents and grandparents. Anyone who wanted to from the community could speak. There was a big road by a roundabout, so we lined up throughout the roundabout with our posters, and signs, and stuff, and were just getting attention to folks, and just getting -- doing what you got to do. It was very small, in comparison to the protests going on in the world. But I think it was still meaningful for that tiny area with a small population of African Americans. LB: Well, it's great to see people coming together, who are maybe concerned about a part of the population, but not part of the population. It's kind of like the mask thing. MM: Absolutely. LB: The thing about it is selfishness has never been an attractive quality for anybody. So, why would somebody adopt that as their primary qual-- I'm really selfish, but I can't understand why I can't get a date. That kind of thing. So, that's great. So, what are you imagining? If you don't go back, are you going to stay there? If they say, "Okay, we've decided that we're not going to let students back to Lehigh?" Or have they said anything about what it's going to be? MM: So, Lehigh has said they are doing mainly online classes. They're sending out a more detailed plan on August 3 of exactly how they're doing things. I know two of my classes are online. I do have to go back to campus because I will be working in student affairs, and staff and faculty will be back on campus. I'm actually going to be managing a building. LB: Wow. MM: So, I have to go back, as well as part of the GA. Hmm? LB: So, what's that going to be? You'll be managing a building that -- as an R-- a residence hall? Or you're going to manage a building that's a different kind of building? MM: I'm going to be managing a student life building. They're Lamberton Hall. It's where they have a dining facility and they do some of their events. I think they do their drag show there. LB: Oh, yeah. Okay. I've been there, yeah. MM: So, I'll be managing that building. Layout's going to be changing because they're making some spaces for classrooms, and just a bunch of layout changes that I'm going to have to be in charge of. I'll be in charge of COVID-related things in the building, as well, like cleanups, and social distancing, and all that kind of great stuff. LB: So, they're anticipating people to come back, but not necessarily go to classes regularly? MM: Yeah. As little classes as possible in person. The ones that have to meet in person, like health-related fields and the engineering stuff, a lot of the hands-on kind of programs and classes. But if it can be done online, it's going online. LB: So, if you're all by yourself there, how many more days do you have to be all by yourself there? MM: The rest of this week. My friend's parents will be coming back at the end of the week. So, I'm just here by myself until then. LB: So, what's for dinner? MM: Tacos. LB: If you run out of food, what are you going to do? MM: I got to the grocery store before they left. So, I got a week's worth of groceries, and just have some chicken that I'm going to cook up. And I got some corn I'm going to make into elote. I like to cook, so it keeps me busy. LB: That's good. That's great. And where's your cat? MM: My cat? Oh, that's a really good question. LB: I wanted to see the cat. So, tell me about your cat. Is this a cat that you got at school? MM: Yes. His name is Magic. He's a black cat. When did I get him? 2018. He is my registered emotional support animal. LB: That's so great. Is he good at it? MM: Hmm? LB: Is he good at it? MM: Yes. He is fantastic at his job. LB: Good. MM: He's very good at his job. He's really good at letting me know when I particularly am getting sick. LB: Oh, that's good. MM: He's caught both of my UTIs before they got worse before. He sits on my hips, and he kneads my hip area very aggressively. So, then I just go to the doctor, and they're like, "Oh, yeah, you're this close to getting a kidney infection." LB: Oh my goodness. Well, cats are smart. MM: Cats are very smart. He's very smart. LB: It's good that you've adopted a black cat because they're at risk. MM: That's why I got him. There were so many at the shelter. So, I got him. He's my little buddy. So, we're in this together. LB: Well, good for you. Well, I think we're coming to the end. So, here's the thing. When we look at this presentation, we imagine that someday in the future -- and it could be a long time in the future -- it could be twenty, thirty, forty years -- and somebody's going to look at this and see you talking about this. And you said a lot of interesting things. But what's something you'd want to communicate to somebody in the future about how you feel now, and what you're hoping to see happen, and that kind of stuff? I mean, they know the future. You're talking to somebody who can see into the future. MM: Oh, geez. I think the most important kind of emotions to put forth in the future -- like I've been saying, this is going to happen again. This is going to happen again. Maybe someone's going to look at this when it is happening again with a different virus, or a different disease, or type of global emergency. I think the best thing, the most important thing to understand, is the need for the human compassion. And no matter what communities you belong to, racial, sexual orientation, gender identity, disability, age, whatever, I think it's just most important to think about the community aspect and the care. We need to care about everybody. We're not caring everybody right now, and look how well we're doing. We're doing an interview online, in a computer, states away. People are dying. People are in hospitals. We're really not doing a good job at maintaining this virus, no matter what that idiot in charge says. LB: We're talking about the Federal Government here. MM: Hmm? LB: We're talking about the Federal Government here. MM: Oh, yeah. No, Governor Wolf, I like him. LB: (inaudible) that state? Yeah, it's Governor Wolf. Well, I have really loved talking to you, Miles. I'm so glad that I got to talk to you today. And I don't know how I feel about you being there all by yourself in the middle of no place with a bear. MM: I'm okay with it. The parents have been here almost every day in the house. So, I'm good. I have a little peace to myself. I can relax, watch the TV, sit down, do some cooking, do some reading. It's quiet. LB: Is it a big house? MM: Hmm? LB: Is it big? Is it a big house? MM: It's a big house. It's bigger than my dorm. So, anything's bigger. LB: Well, I mean when you're there with other people, you don't feel like you're on top of each other? Or is it that kind of place? MM: When they're here, yeah, I feel a little bit on top of each other because the kitchen's really narrow. LB: Well, I'm so glad that I got to talk to you today. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for doing this. MM: Of course. LB: And we will send you the transcript. They send it to a transcript -- the college program, where people learn how to do these transcripts, and then they send it back with it all written out. And you can look at it and see, and say, "I didn't mean to say this." And if you want to take those things out, you can. But I really think everything you said was brilliant. So, I hope you don't -- MM: Thank you. LB: -- feel the need to do that. And it's been terrific to talk to you. So, it's just been great. And I hope I get to see you more, Miles. I miss seeing you. And so, I hope when we all -- when things get back to normal, we'll get to see each other more. MM: Absolutely. I hope so too. Hopefully, this virus will end soon. I'm over it. LB: Okay, well, I agree. But we have to be careful, so we can stand it, right? MM: Mmhmm. Really. LB: Well, thank you very much. I'm going to turn your recording off. END OF VIDEO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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00:57:35
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Miles Molerio, July 27, 2020
Description
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Miles Molerio talks about how the current COVID-19 pandemic is affecting him. He talks about leaving college early, having to stay with a friend’s family for 5 months, how the virus is affecting him and other members of the Transgender community, and what is bothering him the most.
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PH40_19
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
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2020-07-27
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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e7b9469eaf34a8187ad598897dcf63ea
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40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: COVID-19
Description
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In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19.
The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism.
The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Oral History
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Liz Bradbury
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Stephen Libby & Gary Gaugler. Jr.
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_20.xml
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5.4 July 29, 2020 Stephen Libby & ; Gary Gaugler, Jr., July 29, 2020 PH40_20 01:00:57 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- COVID-19 (Disease) Stephen Libby & ; Gary Gaugler. Jr. Liz Bradbury video/mpeg LibbyStephenGauglerJrGary_20200729_video.mp4 1.0:|27(5)|54(6)|85(5)|132(2)|157(3)|178(12)|197(12)|214(15)|233(7)|258(14)|277(17)|306(13)|329(17)|348(11)|371(2)|396(5)|423(6)|448(12)|473(7)|494(5)|517(14)|542(19)|563(13)|588(6)|621(3)|646(4)|683(2)|708(8)|741(10)|766(4)|791(2)|820(9)|843(13)|886(3)|903(12)|924(2)|941(15)|968(4)|993(4)|1016(6)|1049(12)|1080(6)|1109(13)|1136(7)|1163(4)|1184(6)|1213(4)|1238(2)|1261(4)|1286(2)|1315(15)|1346(9)|1373(2)|1396(8)|1427(4)|1452(6)|1483(9)|1516(3)|1539(16)|1570(2)|1609(5) 0 https://youtu.be/3XKYK6N19xo YouTube video 0 Interview Introduction LB: With this project, Bradbury-Sullivan LGBTQ Community Center and the Trexler Library, Muhlenberg College, to collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBTQ community, electing and curating local LGBTQ health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury, and I’m here with Stephen Libby and Gary Gaugler Jr., to talk about their experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBTQ community during this time of COVID-19 pandemic as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBTQ community archives. 0 270 Stephen working as a social worker/Gary working in trade compliance from home during the pandemic SL: Yeah. I’m looking for something new. I think of the questions later, but just for a natural flow, I am, you know, just very concerned about going in to visit COVID positive people in COVID positive facilities or homes. As a social worker, I don’t feel like I have the training, like a doctor or a nurse might, for this kind of epidemic. I’m just not really comfortable doing that. [...]
 ; 
 ; GG: [...] And we were told, when we all were back on July 1st, that they would not be sending us home again, no matter how bad it got, because they were so disappointed that when they told us we could optionally come back, that nobody did. And since then, we’ve had a couple of people leave because they’ve gotten COVID. And the governor has released a statement that -- an order -- that if you are able to telework, you must do so. And the company has refused to acknowledge that, and many people have reported them to the Pennsylvania Department of Health. And I’ve not heard anything.
 ; 0 860 Gary's experience working for his company as a gay man/Comparing World War II business and citizen protocols with pandemic business and citizen protocols GG: It’s always, as a gay man, it’s always been very interesting to work. I’ve worked at this company for just under 14 years, and it’s always been very interesting, not just towards gay people, but towards black people, towards Hispanic people, towards women, even, I mean, it’s very cripplingly old fashioned. And so this is really the worst it’s ever been. 
 ; 0 1066 Getting used to being together all the time/Social distancing/Communicating with others virtually GG: I was very excited to ditch my forty minute each way commute. But, yeah, as I drove home with all my work stuff, I thought to myself, “Oh, my God, I don’t know what working with him at home, living with him, like, all full time is going to be like.” And we kind of got around her question. But I’m going to finish. For us, I found, I think he’s (laughs) I don’t know. The whole time that we were home, at least before I went back to work, we got along maybe better than we ever did. And we got along very -- I mean, we get along very well. I think we’re a pretty solid, functional couple to begin with. But, yeah, we really -- I think we’ve taken this whole pandemic so seriously, -- and really don’t go out. We don’t socialize. We don’t have people here to socialize -- that we rely on each other. And I think that, kind of knowing that kept us from the usual stuck inside for a snow weekend or whatever, kept us from reverting to, “Oh my God, it’s you again.” 0 1381 Exercising/Working on "The Gay Journal"/Gardening/Home projects SL: --we for a three-and-a-half-mile walk. I still do that every day, even since Gary’s gone back to work. And we were doing that pretty religiously every day if it wasn’t raining or whatever. And a little bit of -- we don’t have a home gym, so a little bit of a workout that I learned some stuff from my sister, who teaches physical fitness training online, so (inaudible). And I’ve been working on the magazine for two issues. Yeah. 
 ; 
 ; LB: Yeah. It’s pretty intense. 
 ; 
 ; SL: Oh, and we have a vegetable garden that’s much healthier and pretty soon, more than the one we had last year. We planted more flowers. 0 1501 Pandemic affecting animals' eating patterns/Adhering to pandemic safety protocols LB: [...] Because restaurants are selling food to people that they take it away, and throwing the food away in their garbage cans behind the restaurants, restaurants where cats hang out. And so it really changed the patterns of most kinds of animals. They’re seeking out houses and stuff to hang around (inaudible). It’s scary. 
 ; 
 ; SL: I think we also found out, you know, like, that we are taking -- we’re at one end of the spectrum. 
 ; 
 ; GG: We’re extreme. 
 ; 0 1572 Cooking at home SL: We haven’t done any kind of carryout, which we feel bad about because we want to support places. But I don’t know that I’d be able to enjoy it. We found that we both like to cook more than we thought we did. We have build your own pizza night on Friday nights for the last eighteen weeks. 0 1613 More on gardening/More on social distancing SL: And then we had mint, and we inherited from the previous owners a huge raspberry bush, which just keeps tipping over a little bit more and little bit more each year. So that was great. We got about, I would say, eight or ten cups of those. And then, you know, the neighbors on either side, so the young couple on this side with a two-year-old. And then we have an older couple that’s mostly retired on this side. And, you know, we’ve noticed that they’re doing things totally differently, too. [...] 0 1696 Liz ordering takeout/Grocery shopping LB: We were. And then we have a young person in our life who came back from college and had COVID-19, and it was serious, but she has totally recovered. And so she has a lot of antibodies. They tested her through the Lehigh Valley Health Network. So she shops for us, and we don’t even have to feel guilty about the fact that she might get this, because she is less likely to get it. She’s got the highest level defense that one could have, as long as that lasts. She’s going back to college in a couple of weeks, and then we’ll have to go back to either ordering stuff or doing what we’re doing. And, you know, we wanted to get -- Trish loves to get chicken from Mr. Bill’s, but Mr. Bill’s will not order -- like, we can’t pay them in advance and go pick up stuff. 0 1805 Stephen's concerns during the pandemic SL: My biggest concern -- well, so I would say my biggest concern personally would be for our families, obviously. And then also for myself, because I have smoked for years. I’ve had different ailments. I usually get bronchitis once or twice a year. I mean, all these other things. And when I was doing hospice, you know, you would find that everybody that you go visit is also treating it differently. And that can depend on something as stupid as politics, you know. 0 1934 England's Covid-19 protocols/President Trump's ideas on Covid-19 testing GG: It’s frustrating because we did this thinking it would be gone, like the other countries, in a few months. And so, to see it continue on when we’ve been doing what we were told to do from the beginning is frustrating. 
 ; 
 ; LB: Right. I mean, in England, where they shut down every single household, you could not leave your house for three months. And it’s gone. They’re shooting television shows with audiences full of people, and they’re safe because they’ve all been tested and they all know that there’s no danger and stuff, because they -- you know, and they, for 90 days, they stayed inside. 0 2040 Gary's concerns and concerns for the LGBT community/marginalized people GG: And so I’m going to -- so, to your question, I would echo exactly what Steve said about concerns for obviously myself, my family. As a smoker as well, as a family of half and half smokers, and just some old people. But for the LGBT community, you know, I want to say I don’t know if it’s the administration, I don’t know if it was because, God forbid, we asked people to stay inside for two months. I don’t know if I’m just blind to what I thought we were as a country, but, you know, we’ve seen this whole outbreak of racist nonsense with black people and lynchings and nooses hanging from trees and, you know, white lives matter, all lives matter. 0 2219 Stephen's work on "The Gay Journal"/Gary possibly writing a book LB: [...] Talk about the magazine, Steve, because I think that’s an important thing. 
 ; 
 ; SL: So, yeah. The first issue that we worked on, so that would have been the summer issue, when the pandemic started, I couldn’t bring myself to ask anyone if they had money to advertise in that issue. So that was an online only issue. We still produced it. It was still thirty-ish pages. My designer still worked on it. We still paid him. We posted it on the website. It’s a beautiful looking issue. I really wish that we could have printed that. 0 2619 Gary knowing of people who have contracted Covid-19/Frustrations over others not taking pandemic seriousl LB: So have you known anybody that’s been sick? Or more than sick? 
 ; 
 ; SL: No. Right. 
 ; 
 ; GG: Well, a couple of people. For me, people on Facebook that, you know, you know how Facebook works. It’s not direct friends necessarily. It’s -- a couple of people on Facebook that we know have had it. But nobody close to me. 
 ; 0 2871 Anxiety over working in-person during the pandemic SL: I think when we talk about it with someone like you, I think we’re in pretty good shape. I think, you know, there’s anxiety when Gary comes home from work because they’re still -- they’re actually being way more aggressive with getting people back to work, telling people if they leave, they’re going to consider that their resignation if they’re concerned about safety and all this other stuff. So I think in some ways, it’s gotten a little worse anxiety-wise for us. 0 2990 Wearing masks/Steve Ziminsky and his former roommate who contracted Covid SL: [...] And then, again, the same thing with Gary’s work. Some people are wearing masks, some people are not. They’re not enforcing it because they are looking at it the other way. You know, people are complaining, ”It’s against my freedom. I don’t have to wear a mask. I shouldn’t have to wear a mask. You can’t force me.” Versus looking at it from the other perspective that everyone should be wearing a mask so that we’re all safe. And, you know, they don’t look at it that way.
 ; 0 3163 Thoughts on Black Lives Matter GG: I just think it’s very disappointing that we’re even still having the conversation. 
 ; 
 ; LB: Yeah. 
 ; 
 ; GG: Really, all I have to say about it, I guess I live in a delusional world where all of this does not matter anymore because people are smarter than this. But....
 ; 
 ; SL: Well, and I also think it just complicated, you know, having COVID happening while Black Lives Matter protests were happening. You know, it really complicated things because, again, I didn’t feel comfortable going out and taking part in marches and stuff like that. I mean, we live vicariously through Facebook and what we were seeing on the news, and friends of our that actually did go out, that either had young African American -- you know, adolescent African American children that wanted to go out and be part of this, or witness this, or be part of history. 0 3283 Finding hope in America's future political prospects SL: Well, so yeah, I do think maybe Joe Biden gives us hope. I hope that the country -- I hope that there’s enough people that maybe couldn’t vote for Hillary because that didn’t excite them, that are disappointed enough to vote for Biden. I mean, I really think that realistically, that’s what we’re looking at. 
 ; 
 ; LB: I saw a meme about Biden, and he had a picture of him, and he said, “Well, let me read you my platform.” And then the bottom of the meme said, “You had me at let me read.” 0 3528 Discussing "murder hornets" SL: And I’m just glad we haven’t seen the orange wasps or whatever the -- 
 ; 
 ; GG: (laughs) Killer hornets. 
 ; 
 ; SL: The murder hornets. I don’t know. And so, hopefully, we’re not going to see those. 
 ; 
 ; GG: No, but every time I see one of those cicada killer wasps in the yard, one of those. I’m like, is it? Is it? (laughs)
 ; 0 3601 Thoughts for the future/Conclusion LB: Is there anything else you’d like to tell the future? And say, you know, here’s what the story is about this now, and we hope you’re doing this -- 
 ; 
 ; SL: I don’t think so. Just, you know, say hello to your president, Rachel Levine, in the future. (laughs) Because she’s doing a great job right now. 
 ; 
 ; LB: From us. Yeah. One of the things [Ollie Riley?] just said was, “Yeah, this is what I want to say to the future. If we can work this hard during a pandemic, you better have fixed it.”
 ; 0 MovingImage Steve and Gary talk about how the COVID-19 virus is affecting them. They talk about each working from home and how it affects themselves and each other. They talk about what it’s like at their jobs, and how possible exposure to infection has caused them to reconsider their employment and why. They describe the care they are taking to stay safe and consider why they are not speaking time with people who are not caring the kind of care they are. Stephen Libby & ; Gary Gaugler Jr. 2020-07-29 LIZ BRADBURY: Here we go. And now I'm going to turn to back-up recording, because I'm anal retentive, and it's a good thing I am, because I've got a couple of recording issues, including that in the middle of Ollie's thing, it went off. And I don't know whether it was his or mine, but I had a strong signal the whole time. I have no idea what -- never happened. That was my twenty-fourth interview, and you guys are -- actually, it's more than that. No, it's more than that, because the one after it is -- it was my twenty-eighth interview. So you guys are twenty-nine for me. And I had never had that happen, and I've been on lots of other Zoom calls, too, and it just disappeared completely off the screen like it was never there. It froze for a while, and then it just disappeared. So I hope that that doesn't happen again. But I don't know. Well, anyway. So, let me read you this stuff. So, can you hear me okay? GARY GAUGLER, JR.: Yeah. LB: With this project, Bradbury-Sullivan LGBTQ Community Center and the Trexler Library, Muhlenberg College, to collaborate on forty years of public health experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBTQ community, electing and curating local LGBTQ health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. My name is Liz Bradbury, and I'm here with Stephen Libby and Gary Gaugler Jr., to talk about their experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBTQ community during this time of COVID-19 pandemic as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBTQ community archives. Today is July 29, 2020, and we're meeting on Zoom. So, and I have to check to be sure I'm recording for sure. Okay. And I've pinned you, so that's good. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start, can you please state your full names and spell them for me? STEPHEN LIBBY: Sure. Stephen Libby. S-T-E-P-H-E-N. Libby, L-I-B-B-Y. GG: Gary Gaugler, Jr. G-A-R-Y G-A-U-G-L-E-R, junior. LB: All right. And, could you please share your birth dates. SL: March 27, 1964. GG: July 8, 1983. LB: All righty. So, and I wanted -- we have to do this just for the location stuff -- what town are you in? and you're in Allentown. Is that correct? Good. So, this is the consent part. Do you consent to this interview today? SL: Yes. GG: Yes. LB: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in surgical formats? SL: Yes. GG: Yes. LB: Do you consent to the LGBT archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats, including films, articles, websites, presentations, and other formats we may not even know about today? SL: Yes. GG: Yes. LB: Do you understand that you'll have thirty days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview, identify any parts you'd like to delete, and withdraw your interview from the project if you so choose? SL: Yes. GG: Yes. LB: Okay. So, I need to ask you what your zip code is there? SL: 18103. LB: Okay. And what are your ages, it says on this sheet? Sort of redundant. GG: Yes. Thirty-seven. LB: I didn't get yours, Steve. GG: I'm sorry. Fifty-six. LB: Okay. How do you identify within the LGBTQ community? Transgender, gay, lesbian, bi, pansexual, blah blah blah. SL: Gay. GG: Gay. LB: Okay. And Cisgender? SL: Yes. No. Yes. Yes. LB: And I can say that because I know you, so it's not like I'm making a presumption. SL: Right. LB: So, you know, I sent you these questions already, and there are things to consider. If you don't want to talk about these things, I'm perfectly fine with that. You talk about whatever you want. But let me just ask you right up front, because we're asking everybody, who's in your house with you? I mean, so you look -- you guys both live there, but what else? Is there anybody else there? SL: We have two cats. We have Tigger and we have Nugget. Yes. LB: There you go. So that's good, because some people are all by themselves and it's very hard. So, have you both been working? And tell me about what you each do, and how you've been working during the pandemic and that (inaudible). SL: Okay. So I'm a social worker for a hospice agency. And I typically go out and do emotional support for patients, their families. That could be visits, phone calls, and work with the rest of our team, which includes nurses, aides, chaplain, to provide the best care for people at end of life. LB: Would you say that you are part of Lehigh Valley Health Network? What's your organization? SL: No. Bayada. LB: Okay. Gary, you want to... GG: I work in trade compliance. And that's dealing with imports and exports of our company's material. I work in a manufacturing facility in the Lehigh Valley. LB: So how's it been for work? Have you both been going regularly to work? Why don't you start out, since you started on the first part? SL: Yeah, sure. So when this first hit, I wasn't happy with the response from some people in my company, which tended to make me panic a little bit. And so, I started to do as much as I could do from home, which led to me being moved to per diem, and then led to me being furloughed for two months. And then was hired back part-time a month ago. And now I am going to be leaving that position. Friday will be my last day. LB: And are you done there and you're looking for something new? Or... SL: Yeah. I'm looking for something new. I think of the questions later, but just for a natural flow, I am, you know, just very concerned about going in to visit COVID positive people in COVID positive facilities or homes. As a social worker, I don't feel like I have the training, like a doctor or a nurse might, for this kind of epidemic. I'm just not really comfortable doing that. LB: Yeah. I can see that. What about your work situation, Gary? GG: We were all sent to work from home in late March. And my work has been very, very aggressive in their summoning us back. We were told in mid-to-late-May, and Pennsylvania was at its peak, that we should come back optionally. But June 1st, they wanted fifty percent back. July 1st was one hundred percent back. And we were told, when we all were back on July 1st, that they would not be sending us home again, no matter how bad it got, because they were so disappointed that when they told us we could optionally come back, that nobody did. And since then, we've had a couple of people leave because they've gotten COVID. And the governor has released a statement that -- an order -- that if you are able to telework, you must do so. And the company has refused to acknowledge that, and many people have reported them to the Pennsylvania Department of Health. And I've not heard anything. I'm sure they're quite swamped with what, you know, the reportings that they get on different businesses, because I doubt my company is the only one that feels they're above the law. So my workplace has become very hostile. Somebody brought in a doctor's note yesterday that said they should be able to work from home, they're high risk. It was immediately handed back to them, and they were told, "We can't allow you to, because anybody that's at high risk will want to work from home, then." And she said, "Well, we're all supposed to be working from home right now." And the response was, "Well, we're essential." But my understanding of the governor's and Dr. Levine's press conference, now two weeks ago, was it was not essential or non-essential. If you could telework, you were not to go to work. LB: I know hospital workers working from home that are absolutely essential, but they're working from home. I mean, I guess the definition of "essential" is that you have to be on-site, but if you can work from home, you're not essential for that. GG: Yeah. Right. SL: And Gary's business is kind of twisting the definition, or stretching the definition of "essential." GG: Yeah. When this whole thing started, my company is the world's largest global manufacturer of pipe fittings. And one of things that they also produce is sprinkler heads for fire protection in hospitals and hotels, anywhere you see fire sprinklers. And so they wrote to the governor and said, "We are essential. We create life-saving devices," and that was all true. The [Bradford's?] facility -- oops! Our facility in the Lehigh Valley has never, ever manufactured a sprinkler head. They're all manufactured in Leland, North Carolina. Oops. So, yeah, they've kind of been twisting everything from the beginning to make this work out in their favor, and creating this series of -- LB: I mean, is there a circumstance where, if you're working -- I mean, I have to say that we've been working from home, and I've done more work than I've ever done. I don't waste my time walking to work, you know. And, like, when you're at work, you feel like, "Well, I'm at work," whether you get work done or not. SL: Yeah. GG: Yeah. SL: Gary said that after he was working at home for a few weeks, his supervisor came back, or his director came back and said, "You know, we're tracking productivity, and productivity is higher than it's been for a long time with all of you guys working from home." But then, it seemed like -- I'll let you speak for yourself after I say this to lead into that -- is that you were saying that it seemed like they were just scared that once the pandemic was over, that people were going to want to continue to work from home. And so it seemed like that sent a panic through upper management, and then a rush to get people back into the office. LB: It's such a weird thing, because what this -- what we're all seeming to learn throughout this, from this pandemic, is that the way we all work can really be different. It doesn't need to be this way at all. GG: I agree. And the method to my madness when this whole thing first started, because my company is so old fashioned, and very truly old fashioned, not just with working from home options. But I knew that this was a rarity, and so my thought was, I'm going to, while I am home, I'm going to, you know, really overachieve so that I don't want them to think that we're slacking. And so I really wanted to do more than I usually do. Because, as you said, you go into work, and you're like, "Oh, what say (inaudible) say today? What time did (inaudible) say today?" You know, and you're in your own TMZ before you know it. It's just this spiraling, you know, whatever. So I really wanted to make a point that it was something that could be done, and I was not taking advantage of the situation. I can't speak for all 800 employees in office space that they did that, but I think it works for some people. Doesn't work for others. And I don't know why, after three months, they felt -- there should be a way to measure. If you're less productive, you have to come back and be watched. If not -- LB: I wonder if they get, like, a huge write-off or something for having a big building. You know, because it's hard to justify having a huge building if you don't want to have 35 -- GG: Well, also, not just that. Our CEO is friends with Pat Toomey, and they golf together regularly. And I've been informed that he is going to ask for the maximum amount of money back in whatever it is, emergency relief or whatever, because we are so essential that we're the only company in the Lehigh Valley that has 100 percent staff back daily. LB: I see. So you won't be able to say that if everybody's home. Okay, that's an interesting point of view. GG: It's always, as a gay man, it's always been very interesting to work. I've worked at this company for just under 14 years, and it's always been very interesting, not just towards gay people, but towards black people, towards Hispanic people, towards women, even, I mean, it's very cripplingly old fashioned. And so this is really the worst it's ever been. LB: Really makes you aware of it, it shows. GG: You know, you go into work for a business or a company knowing that even if they say, you know, employees are number one, you know the company's number one. And you understand that. You're working for the company. You want the company to do well as much as you want yourself to do well. But somewhere along the line, I feel like, at least for me, I feel like -- I said from the beginning of the pandemic, and I know I'm just talking and talking, but -- LB: That's okay, except for Steve. GG: I feel like, not just with companies, but with people, you're really seeing people for what they really are. And it's brought out a lot of good in people and a lot of caring in people. But it's also brought out a terrible, really awful side of people in businesses, and presidents. LB: (laughs) You know, you see this during war, too. Where people, in World War II, I think, in particular, where people were rationing because they needed rubber for the -- SL: Yeah. Sure. LB: And then people were stockpiling and hoarding it, and they were black market, and they were, you know, jacking up prices, and companies were profiteering and stuff. And then there were -- most people, frankly, a huge number of American, or people in the country who were just doing everything they could. Raising victory gardens and collecting rubber, and not -- and rendering fat, and doing all sorts of things like that, that every minute of every day, because they were thinking about people who were fighting and what they were fighting for. And people who were victims of war and oppression in Europe at the time. And, you know, it is -- I think this does show, in this kind of thing, how much are you willing to sacrifice? Well, nothing at all. Won't sacrifice anything, you know. I want to be totally like nothing has happened, even though everything has happened. And then other people who will say -- so, as I said, this is my twenty-ninth, of twenty-nine people I've interviewed -- I did the first ten were HIV/AIDS folks that lived through the epidemic. Was that different group of people, but I also talked to them all about COVID, too. Everyone has said the same thing, all the people that I've interviewed have said the same thing, that what you're saying -- that people -- a frustration, and I probably would ask you about this, too. But the frustration of people just acting like -- not pulling together at a time when we all need each other, you know. So are you communicating with other pals on the phone? Or are they coming over to swim? Or are they, you know, what's the deal? GG: (laughs) SL: When we -- I'm going to let Gary tell his story. He tells it very well. When he tells the story that you tell, when you first brought your mom into his home. GG: About having people over to swim? SL: No. Just that he brought his monitors home, and he said he was telling people to work, or maybe his mom on the way home on a phone call, "Oh, you know..." Because there's such an age difference, and we have a lot in common, but there's a lot of things we don't have in common, especially maybe hobbies and downtime and movies, you know, video games, stuff like that. So he goes, "Well, wait and see what the hell this is going --" GG: I was very excited to ditch my forty minute each way commute. But, yeah, as I drove home with all my work stuff, I thought to myself, "Oh, my God, I don't know what working with him at home, living with him, like, all full time is going to be like." And we kind of got around her question. But I'm going to finish. For us, I found, I think he's (laughs) I don't know. The whole time that we were home, at least before I went back to work, we got along maybe better than we ever did. And we got along very -- I mean, we get along very well. I think we're a pretty solid, functional couple to begin with. But, yeah, we really -- I think we've taken this whole pandemic so seriously, -- and really don't go out. We don't socialize. We don't have people here to socialize -- that we rely on each other. And I think that, kind of knowing that kept us from the usual stuck inside for a snow weekend or whatever, kept us from reverting to, "Oh my God, it's you again." SL: Yeah. So we talked with other medical professionals in the beginning of this, when I was per diem, and then when I was furloughed for two months, and Gary was already working from home. And so we had a good two months, a little bit more, together at home. The room that we're sitting in right now is kind of our big great room that they added on to the house between the main house and then going out to the back yard. So Gary had this room all to himself during the work hours during the day. I would work in the living room inside the main house. And I think we both, after talking with those medical professionals, came to the same conclusion, that we only wanted to go out if it was absolutely necessary. And then that was also what was being told to us by our governor and by Secretary of Health Levine. And so that's what we were trying to adhere to. And I would make a list and go to the grocery store and spend 500 dollars, and that would last us for a month. And I didn't want to go back there again until we absolutely needed to go back. We didn't visit any friends. We started a Zoom happy hour on Friday afternoons, late Friday afternoon. Then we started Zooming with, or Facetiming, whatever, with his family as well. And they all live local, but we didn't have any of them over. They didn't have us over. Then we started Zooming with my family in Maine. Then we started Zooming with friends in Florida, with friends in Tennessee. And we kept that up, especially the local guides that are mostly on our kickball team, you know, on the Friday nights. So we did that, and it seemed like some of them kind of got tired of it after a few weeks. GG: When we went to yellow and green, everybody -- we were the only ones that were still serious about it. (laughs) SL: Yeah. And so, that was okay. I mean, you know, they can do what they want to do. And then we just started doing it more with my family on Friday nights. And then what we did do when we opened the pool, is that we had, we'd been having Gary's parents over. And they sit a good ten feet from us at another table. We have our own table. They'd bring their own food, they'd bring their own alcohol. So this back room has three doors. They have their own door to go immediately into the basement to change and/or use the bathroom. And when they leave, we just wipe everything down, we keep everything closed. And that's what we've been doing for the last few weeks, when it's been nice enough on a Saturday, and they'll come over for a few hours. And that's really our only live socialization. LB: Yeah. Wow. Well, I can't -- SL: Again, we're going to the grocery store. I don't think we've done -- we for a three-and-a-half-mile walk. I still do that every day, even since Gary's gone back to work. And we were doing that pretty religiously every day if it wasn't raining or whatever. And a little bit of -- we don't have a home gym, so a little bit of a workout that I learned some stuff from my sister, who teaches physical fitness training online, so (inaudible). And I've been working on the magazine for two issues. Yeah. LB: Yeah. It's pretty intense. SL: Oh, and we have a vegetable garden that's much healthier and pretty soon, more than the one we had last year. We planted more flowers. LB: Everybody's garden is way better than it's ever been. SL: Yeah. And we've done some home projects. I painted the bedroom. And, you know, things that we didn't -- that we were putting off, procrastinating since we moved in. LB: Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting that world that biggest divided that stays it divided between people who really did a lot of projects and found out that they just weren't going to do any projects, even though -- [Melinda Kahn?] said to me, "You know, I had always thought that -- I'd always planned that when I had time, I would work on these big projects because I was so into them. But apparently, I'm not." (laughter) Couldn't do it. And I talked to two other people who said stuff like, "I said I was going to do stuff and I didn't." I just say that I've been maniacal about doing stuff. So, like, I took all the nuts and bolts and stuff in the basement and divided them. And there's like hundreds of jars with little labels and stuff. That's really anal retentive. I was building things and -- crazy. SL: You may get a cat's ass in a minute. This happened the other night. LB: Yeah, get this. Hi, buddy. SL: Hello. That's Tigger. LB: Tigger. Yeah, I could tell. We have a lot of stray cats in our yard. And apparently, there's a lot more stray cats in the world in the 'burbs and stuff, Tigger, because -- Tigger (inaudible) are cats. Because restaurants are selling food to people that they take it away, and throwing the food away in their garbage cans behind the restaurants, restaurants where cats hang out. And so it really changed the patterns of most kinds of animals. They're seeking out houses and stuff to hang around (inaudible). It's scary. SL: I think we also found out, you know, like, that we are taking -- we're at one end of the spectrum. GG: We're extreme. SL: We're pretty extreme, we're finding out compared to other people, friends, relatives. Actually, our relatives are pretty good, but our friends, you know, are going on vacations, Outer Banks, stuff like that. Posting pictures, no masks, no social distancing. GG: No masks, cheek-to-cheek. SL: And we're like, so we don't want to invite them over to the pool. We don't want to really -- we haven't even gone out. We haven't done any kind of carryout, which we feel bad about because we want to support places. But I don't know that I'd be able to enjoy it. We found that we both like to cook more than we thought we did. We have build your own pizza night on Friday nights for the last eighteen weeks. GG: Nothing Trish level yet. (laughs) SL: No, but we have done crab meat pizza. We've done meatloaf pizza. We've done a bunch of things that are fun. LB: That's wonderful. SL: Made some fun desserts. Gary's been making vegetable scrambled eggs almost every Sunday. We didn't get tired of those for a long time. The last two weeks we didn't do them, but sixteen or seventeen weeks, so.... LB: What do you have in the garden? SL: So, you want to answer that? I've been talking for a while. GG: Tomatoes, cucumbers, zucchini, radish, beets. SL: Pumpkin. GG: Pumpkins. And flowers. That's it. LB: Wow. Great. SL: And then we had mint, and we inherited from the previous owners a huge raspberry bush, which just keeps tipping over a little bit more and little bit more each year. So that was great. We got about, I would say, eight or ten cups of those. And then, you know, the neighbors on either side, so the young couple on this side with a two-year-old. And then we have an older couple that's mostly retired on this side. And, you know, we've noticed that they're doing things totally differently, too. They'll have family over, not really social distancing and stuff like that. And again, people would probably look at Gary's parents coming over. We're not wearing masks, but -- GG: They're far away. SL: They sit far away from us. LB: I have to say that of all the people I've interviewed -- I've interviewed twenty-nine people -- they have been extraordinarily -- they'll all like you. And Trish and I are even -- we don't even go to the store. We don't go to the grocery store. SL: Do you order? So you're ordering out? You're ordering delivery? LB: We were. And then we have a young person in our life who came back from college and had COVID-19, and it was serious, but she has totally recovered. And so she has a lot of antibodies. They tested her through the Lehigh Valley Health Network. So she shops for us, and we don't even have to feel guilty about the fact that she might get this, because she is less likely to get it. She's got the highest level defense that one could have, as long as that lasts. She's going back to college in a couple of weeks, and then we'll have to go back to either ordering stuff or doing what we're doing. And, you know, we wanted to get -- Trish loves to get chicken from Mr. Bill's, but Mr. Bill's will not order -- like, we can't pay them in advance and go pick up stuff. They won't do drop off, and we've been their customer for thirty years, thirty-three years. And they won't even, like, bring the stuff -- they have a door right behind their booth. Just call them, say we want eight chicken breasts, here's the money over the phone, and we'll just come and get it. Why would they not do that? I mean, you know, it's very upsetting, because that, not being able to shop, is just driving Trish crazy, because she does everything based on, you know, bargains. And she said, like, "I could be getting a flat of strawberries at the farmers' market and canning one hundred jars of strawberry jelly. And you could get it for ten dollars. You can't get that anyplace else. I could be getting it, but I'd have to be there, and I'd have...." She did that every year for -- she just canned thirteen jars of grape jelly from the grapes in the backyard. SL: Wow. Cool. LB: But, so anyway, what's your biggest concern in the pandemic, you know, for your personal biggest concern? And then also, just sort of for the LGBTQ community, if you could (inaudible). So what do you think about that, guys? SL: My biggest concern -- well, so I would say my biggest concern personally would be for our families, obviously. And then also for myself, because I have smoked for years. I've had different ailments. I usually get bronchitis once or twice a year. I mean, all these other things. And when I was doing hospice, you know, you would find that everybody that you go visit is also treating it differently. And that can depend on something as stupid as politics, you know. I got into a conversation with a woman who, said, "Oh, and so I'll be wearing a mask. Will you be able to wear a mask when I visit?" and she said, "Yeah, well, you know, wearing masks. And she --" LB: I've lost the sound for you. SL: Oh, I'm sorry. What did I do? LB: What happened? SL: Hello. LB: There you go. That's good. SL: So she just said that she felt that it was all overblown, and it really wasn't, you know, "Don't you think we're making too big of a thing out of this?" and I said, "Well, you know, I have to go and visit other patients after I visit you. I also have to come home. And so, I'm asking if you can wear a mask, it would be appreciated." And so she did. To her credit, she did. But, you know, a lot of what she was saying sounds like what we're hearing out of our leaders, some of our leaders. So it just is concerning. You now, when we are taking this very seriously, and then you go out to the grocery store or whatever, and you realize, well, jeez, not everyone's taking this seriously. And yet, could we sluff off a little bit? I guess. But I don't know why we would, really. GG: It's frustrating because we did this thinking it would be gone, like the other countries, in a few months. And so, to see it continue on when we've been doing what we were told to do from the beginning is frustrating. LB: Right. I mean, in England, where they shut down every single household, you could not leave your house for three months. And it's gone. They're shooting television shows with audiences full of people, and they're safe because they've all been tested and they all know that there's no danger and stuff, because they -- you know, and they, for 90 days, they stayed inside. Not one single person went outside in the entire country under penalty of law. And then it's okay. And then they're now -- we're (inaudible) still going to be a little careful and stuff like that. But for the most part, they've tested enough to really know, it's not there anymore. SL: Right. Right. LB: You know, that's the other thing, too, is that we haven't had that adequate testing, and that could have been something that could have really controlled this all along, too. GG: But, Liz, hear me out on this. The more you test, the more cases you'll find. LB: I know. GG: (laughs) LB: But for people in the future that are watching this video years from now (laughter)... GG: Sorry. I should have -- LB: The leader of our country said that the problem -- that we all don't hold in high regard -- said that if you test people, they will find more cases and the numbers will go up of the people who have had it. So then he didn't want people to be tested. SL: Well, and if for people that are watching this in the future, if you don't get a pregnancy test, you're not pregnant. LB: (laughs) Yeah, that's right. SL: And the logic follows. GG: And so I'm going to -- so, to your question, I would echo exactly what Steve said about concerns for obviously myself, my family. As a smoker as well, as a family of half and half smokers, and just some old people. But for the LGBT community, you know, I want to say I don't know if it's the administration, I don't know if it was because, God forbid, we asked people to stay inside for two months. I don't know if I'm just blind to what I thought we were as a country, but, you know, we've seen this whole outbreak of racist nonsense with black people and lynchings and nooses hanging from trees and, you know, white lives matter, all lives matter. And I look at Steve, and I don't want to sound ignorant, I really don't, and if I am, then I'm sorry. I always think we're good. Like, we're good, all of us, because I guess I put myself in a bubble where I don't associate with, or people like that don't associate with me, these people that feel this way. And our administration has felt this need to tell these people that I didn't really think were around anymore, to speak their minds and speak out. And, you know, as somebody that's studied history in college to be -- at one point I wanted to be a history teacher. I know that the blacks are cursed, and it's just going to spiral on from there. It's going to be the Jews. It's going to be the gays. It's going to -- it's certainly, it's trans. Trans has never gone out of style for being prejudiced against. So I just worry that we're the next in these peoples' freedom of speech to bash and go after their rights. SL: Liz, I think I lost your audio. GG: It's hers, I think. LB: I turned it off because I had a call. SL: There you go. LB: So you've talked about communicating with people around, and in some ways, I feel like I'm communicating a little more with people far away than I used to. So have you been doing any other sort of queer activities? You told me you were working on the magazine. Talk about the magazine, Steve, because I think that's an important thing. SL: So, yeah. The first issue that we worked on, so that would have been the summer issue, when the pandemic started, I couldn't bring myself to ask anyone if they had money to advertise in that issue. So that was an online only issue. We still produced it. It was still thirty-ish pages. My designer still worked on it. We still paid him. We posted it on the website. It's a beautiful looking issue. I really wish that we could have printed that. It came out -- we had some great artists and photography work in it, and great interviews. And all the contributors, including you, always come up with interesting, informative, entertaining content. And so that issue is online only for now. And then I started working on the fall issue. And I thought, well, you know, people started doing curbside and carryout and all this other stuff. And I thought, all right, I'm still going to put it out there, in case people do want to advertise. And, surprisingly, we got quite a few advertisers that came back, admittedly, probably about a third of what we usually get, but I was surprised that anyone came back. And so we talked with the printer about what paper options we had. You know, we thought maybe we had to change out paper to save a little bit of money because paper costs have been going up over the five years that we've been doing the magazine. And I think I had one ad rate increase in those five years, and we had paper increases, gosh, probably every, I don't know, four or five months. So I only passed that on once. Then she sent me some samples. I looked at some of the samples after wiping them all off with Clorox wipes once they arrived in my mailbox, because that's what a freak I am. And so I looked at those. And, anyway, so there was one, a non-glossy option that I thought was actually pretty good. So we talked about that. We talked about the money that that was going to cost. And so we're going to print 2,000 copies of that. And, because of that, and because of a couple of late advertisers, who were actually going to ad some pages from the -- actually we were going to add some pages anyway, because we're doing coming out stories for the first time, and we have over twenty people that volunteered to tell their coming out stories. Then we had the Black Lives Matter movement, so we had a couple of interviews. And then we have a centerfold with photos from the Black Lives movement protest from Philly and Lehigh Valley. And then we had some transgender. Corinne Goodman's writing something about trans black lives mattering, and deaths, and it's so far this year. And so then I thought, well, you know, there's some stuff in the summer issues. Maybe we can include that. So we added a few more pages. And we're going to include some of the stuff from the summer issue that was, you know, some of those great photos and artwork and stuff like that. LB: Yeah. Good. SL: So we're going to still have the glossy covers, and then the interior will be a non-gloss paper. And it's seventy-four pages plus covers instead of our regular forty-eight pages. LB: Do I need to do an article, or did I do one already? SL: You already did one. You did it about the Supreme Court -- LB: Yeah. The Bostock kids, yeah. Good, okay. That was smart of me. (laughs) SL: No, you have to do it, and our deadline is the 3rd of August. (laughter) LB: I would do it. You know, you and I -- SL: I know, but no, no, no. You're good. LB: You know, they're interviewing me for the archive, for the oral history now. And Mary [Paltz?] is doing it, and I said, "Mary, you know, I can't tell this story in one gig." So it's actually been like, I think, five sessions. And one of them, I was talking about how when we did the {Galligan?] Press, how some of us can just, like Trish, would research her article for days and days and days. And they were so meticulous with research. And I said, "Yes, Steve and I would spend about one day." I'm like, "Steve, you forgot to do your article." He said, "I'll get it to you in a few minutes." (laughs) SL: Every once in a while it would work. LB: And I said, "Trish and I don't know anything about pop culture anymore because that's the only way we ever knew anything was, oh, this was that person Steve was talking about." SL: Yep. I'm not going to belabor the point, but Gary's even thought about maybe writing a fourth book in his series, and so -- which I would love to see. And he actually had -- someone wrote to him the other day about, "Is there another book coming out?" So that was kind of cool. And, anyway, he doesn't like to talk about it, so we won't. GG: You probably heard me go, oh my God, under my breath at him. So you can edit that out. (laughter) LB: I think that it's really important for people to know about creative work that people are doing. I think that's a good thing to do. And I was just thinking, maybe I should write another book. I've got a few. I'm working like a maniac for the center, but I'm also doing a lot of stuff to the house, and I'm doing a lot of art that's going to be a highlight through the Fry Festival. We're going to have this really interesting thing at the Fry Festival where, because it's virtual, you know, it's going to be on television and everything like that. But there's also a way to have booths where we're using a platform where it looks like you're walking into a gallery, and then each (inaudible) in the gallery, you can maneuver through the gallery. Each painting is like the booth. And then you go to that booth, and all their information is there, and then you can click through to their website. So it's actually got a booth component to the festival. And so, I was the first one. I said, give me a booth and I'll do art, and then maybe we can, you know, I'll do that. So then I said, "Trish, now I've got to do a whole bunch of paintings so I could do this gig." You know, because we don't -- SL: Right. LB: And it happens, because I have to make this worthwhile. I'm too old to just blow off two or three years, you know. I don't have that much extra time. It's true for older people. So have you known anybody that's been sick? Or more than sick? SL: No. Right. GG: Well, a couple of people. For me, people on Facebook that, you know, you know how Facebook works. It's not direct friends necessarily. It's -- a couple of people on Facebook that we know have had it. But nobody close to me. SL: No. LB: Did you say there were people at work that had it? GG: Yeah. Again, nobody close to me. LB: Uh-huh. Yeah. I guess that's one of the problems is that, right now, anyway, in the pandemic, there are lots of people who don't know anybody that's had it. We know some people, and I'll tell you about that later. GG: I just want a quick add onto the that and just say, he's very nice. We had somebody over to work on the pool a couple of weeks ago, and he said to me -- I came to the door wearing a mask -- and he said, "Oh, are we doing that?" and he's about seventy years old. And I said, "Yep. We're doing that." And he goes, "Well, you know, Hillary just concocted this whole thing so the Democrats would win." And I said, you know, he's here to do a job. I'm like, "Oh, okay." I'm not about -- LB: How do you do that? I mean, she's not even running for office. GG: I know. I'm just so -- I've come to the point in this term that I can't -- you can't convince anyone anymore. There's no logic for some people. And so I just said, "Okay." And I left it at that. And he went on this tirade about how, and he goes, "Do you know anyone personally that's gotten this?" And I said, "Not personally." I said, "But I know people that are close to me in their lives that have someone in their family or a close friend that have had it." And he's like, "Exactly. You don't know anyone, though. Nobody actually knows anyone that has it." I'm like, "Okay." I just -- I'm so young to be over it, but I'm not arguing with the nonsense anymore. I'm just not. You do your thing, I'll do mine. But if you're on my property, please wear a mask. LB: (laughs) That's reasonable to say. Yeah. So that's probably a big frustration. And that's one of the things we have on here, frustrations, fears, and challenges. And I think we already talked about some of those things. Is there anything else? SL: I think the frustration is, people, you know, that we're taking it at a different level than other people. Because -- GG: We know we're taking it more seriously than most. SL: But it's still frustrating. Because, again, if it was like you said about England, and we all took it as seriously as each other, and we all shut down, we'd be over it in three months. GG: We made it -- when they announced it, everybody else saw it as this prison sentence. And we immediately took the high road and said, "This'll be cute. This'll be fun. We'll buy ingredients and we'll do all this cooking. We'll have our own little, like --" and he's way more social than I am. And I was like, I wanted to make sure that he was engaged, so we were doing, like, game night things, and different movie theme nights, and we're Zooming with all these different people. And I never felt like it was that big of an ask to not go out and spread germs for a couple of months. Honestly. LB: And had we all -- had every American, so to speak -- done that, done the right thing, we'd be done. We'd be done. We'd be back at work. We'd be back kicking the economy and stuff like that. But it's a shame. So, would you say that your mental health has been pretty good during all this fun? You guys seem like you're in pretty good shape. SL: I think when we talk about it with someone like you, I think we're in pretty good shape. I think, you know, there's anxiety when Gary comes home from work because they're still -- they're actually being way more aggressive with getting people back to work, telling people if they leave, they're going to consider that their resignation if they're concerned about safety and all this other stuff. So I think in some ways, it's gotten a little worse anxiety-wise for us. And to the point that I, you know, quit my job. It's not (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible). I'm not like really fighting with the people that are my supervisor or directors. We've known each other for years. But we've had conversations, and they're really just towing the line from above them. Just like Gary's supervisor that's towing the line. Because they're both global companies. I think Gary's is probably a much larger global company than mine. But Bayada has offices around the world, and you know, there's somebody else that's up here that's telling everyone else what to do. And I feel like if you -- you know, everyone has to make their own decisions that are what they feel are best for them. I think there was, when I was furloughed, I felt great. I didn't really feel much anxiety, except when I had to go grocery shopping. And when I went back to work for this past month, it was high anxiety a lot, because I didn't know if I was going to get called to go in to see a COVID patient in a COVID facility, when different people telling me what different PPE to wear. And then, again, the same thing with Gary's work. Some people are wearing masks, some people are not. They're not enforcing it because they are looking at it the other way. You know, people are complaining, "It's against my freedom. I don't have to wear a mask. I shouldn't have to wear a mask. You can't force me." Versus looking at it from the other perspective that everyone should be wearing a mask so that we're all safe. And, you know, they don't look at it that way. LB: You know, as my friend, [Laura Baterra?] said, "You know, people are forced to wear things all the time." We wear clothes. SL: Right. Exactly. LB: We're forced to wear clothes. I was talking to Steve Ziminsky, he's one of the people I interviewed, and he said that they had some really interesting insights about the way Allentown schools are, and how they really can't open. And one of the things is they're not air conditioned. A lot of them are not air conditioned. And September, they could be so hot, what they do is, they take all the kids, and they bring them down into air conditioned, like, auditoriums, and just cram them all into the auditorium. So they won't be able to do that. So what are they going to do? Leave these kids up in that one hudnred-degree temperature? They're all going to pass out. So they can't do that. They haven't put enough money into this school system to be able to accommodate this kind of circumstance. But he was also talking about his roommate, Liam, and I don't know if you ever knew that guy that lived in Steve's house, and he had a pretty serious heart condition, and now he's in a nursing home. And it's not Country Meadows, it's one that's just over the one in Allentown. It's a pretty big nursing home. And I can't remember the name of it. But it's one of the big ones we have right here in the Lehigh Valley. And he as serious, serious heart condition. And he got COVID. A hundred patients in that place had it. SL: Lehigh Center. LB: Was it? SL: Was it Lehigh Center? I mean, that's what it sounds like. LB: It was a nursing home that had one of those names that we recognize that's like Country Meadows. SL: Oh, like Cedarbrook? LB: Yeah. It was Cedarbrook. And Cedarbrook, they had 100 cases. They had a whole floor where they moved everybody onto that floor. And, you know, they're not telling people who's dying, because they don't want to tell, "By the way, there's six people down the hall that just kicked off." But you know, Steve was in touch with him, and it's hard to be in touch with him, because they don't have enough platforms and stuff for people. He said, "I haven't seen him. I haven't seen any of these people, but it's -- all these people had it." So it was very, very serious. And it's not like it's not happening. They had hundreds and hundreds of cases in Allentown. It's very serious. But, so you're already talking a little bit about Black Lives Matter. Do you want to say anything else about that? Or anything else about -- well, you've already talked about that. I mean, we can't really talk about this pandemic without talking about Black Lives Matter, and without politics. GG: I just think it's very disappointing that we're even still having the conversation. LB: Yeah. GG: Really, all I have to say about it, I guess I live in a delusional world where all of this does not matter anymore because people are smarter than this. But.... SL: Well, and I also think it just complicated, you know, having COVID happening while Black Lives Matter protests were happening. You know, it really complicated things because, again, I didn't feel comfortable going out and taking part in marches and stuff like that. I mean, we live vicariously through Facebook and what we were seeing on the news, and friends of our that actually did go out, that either had young African American -- you know, adolescent African American children that wanted to go out and be part of this, or witness this, or be part of history. And so yeah. I mean, there's -- it's all just really hateful from -- I don't know. I really feel like it's from -- it's always been around, but I also feel like those flames get fanned by our administration that's in charge of the country. And so, I feel like that's the same with trans lives. I know that trans people were being killed before this administration, but it seems like it's increased. GG: It's emboldened people. SL: Yeah. LB: It has. SL: And not in a good way. LB: No. That's very true. Well, what gives you hope now, besides your kitties? Each other? GG: Kamala Harris as V.P. LB: Okay. That sounds like a good deal. SL: Well, so yeah, I do think maybe Joe Biden gives us hope. I hope that the country -- I hope that there's enough people that maybe couldn't vote for Hillary because that didn't excite them, that are disappointed enough to vote for Biden. I mean, I really think that realistically, that's what we're looking at. LB: I saw a meme about Biden, and he had a picture of him, and he said, "Well, let me read you my platform." And then the bottom of the meme said, "You had me at let me read." GG: Right. SL: (laughs) Well, Gary has said this since day one after Trump won. GG: I mean, I'll vote for the garbage can if the garbage can gets the nomination. I'll vote for anything. I mean, I -- he was my last pick. But he still towers about what's there, so... SL: Biden. LB: And we really hope, too, that -- you, person who is in the future watching this -- we're really hoping that Biden is smart enough -- GG: He worked out. (laughs) LB: Well, I mean, a whole cadre of people in his cabinet, and as his vice president and stuff, because we've seen really terrific people that we could build an enormous super administration out of. It doesn't just have to be one guy. And so, you know, there's the Secretary of Health, and the Secretary of State, and the Secretary of Education, and we know the terrible people that are in there now. They could be great. What if they were great? You know. So, we've got all that opportunity. And if you start to think about it, it's a dream team. So that, I think, would bring a lot of people out to vote. A lot of young people out to vote. SL: I hope so. LB: Very, very important. That's what everybody says. Have to say that none of us are very, very, very, very confident. None of us are. SL: I was confident when I went to bed that Tuesday evening.... LB: I know. I know. GG: The cat threw up at about two in the morning, and Steve got up to clean up the cat vomit. And I reached over, grabbed my iPad, and I went, "Oh, my God." And he goes, "I'm half asleep. Don't tell me. Don't tell me anything." SL: "I need to be able to go back to sleep." GG: And there were still, at that point, there were still a couple of states -- I didn't do the math. I was half asleep myself. I don't know if we could have made it at that point or not. But it was not good. And... LB: I know. I know. I haven't slept since that night. SL: All right. Exactly. GG: You're right. SL: We had a -- LB: Well, actually, it was about six months before that when I started to begin to worry about it. So anyway. GG: Well, and I hope somebody has written, like, not a big, long history book, but just like, almost like a good Chicken Soup for the Soul kind of thing, but not. Where it just -- what he did each day. Because we keep looking at each other and going, "It's something every day." And we keep forgetting because your brain needs to make room for the new things. And so, there's just so -- every day he says or does something that makes us go, oh, my God. (laughs) Very depressing. SL: And that's what I think, you know, of the pandemic on top of three years of that. You asked me about mental health and all that stuff, I think that that was just another kick in your balls, you know. And then Black Lives Matter. And trans people being murdered. And Jesus, God, you know. And I'm just glad we haven't seen the orange wasps or whatever the -- GG: (laughs) Killer hornets. SL: The murder hornets. I don't know. And so, hopefully, we're not going to see those. GG: No, but every time I see one of those cicada killer wasps in the yard, one of those. I'm like, is it? Is it? (laughs) LB: Oh, I saw one of those. We had that in our yard, too. GG: They're terrifying looking. LB: They're not bad, though, are they? SL: They're not bad, but they look bad. LB: They are huge and they have -- they're wearing that, like, orange jacket. GG: And they're not afraid to break social distancing rules. They will get close to you, and it's like -- SL: But they're so dressed up. Like, what's that? (laughs) LB: Fabulous. I took a picture of one because it was so fabulous. But they aren't bad, because they get the bugs that will eat all of our leaves. So I guess (inaudible). Well, I have had a wonderful time talking to you guys. I'm going to turn off the recorder, and then I want to say a couple of things to you offline. SL: Okay. LB: Is there anything else you'd like to tell the future? And say, you know, here's what the story is about this now, and we hope you're doing this -- SL: I don't think so. Just, you know, say hello to your president, Rachel Levine, in the future. (laughs) Because she's doing a great job right now. LB: From us. Yeah. One of the things [Ollie Riley?] just said was, "Yeah, this is what I want to say to the future. If we can work this hard during a pandemic, you better have fixed it." SL: (laughs) Yeah. Right. LB: I thought that was a really good thing to say. SL: Yup. LB: I think that's really true. We're trying to manage all these civil rights and social concerns in the midst of a pandemic. SL: Oy. LB: It's very hard. And so, you know, you don't have to be in pandemic, you should be doing really well. Well, so I'm going to turn off the record thing. Thank you very much, guys. GG: Thank you. SL: Thanks for including us. END OF VIDEO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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01:00:56
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Title
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Stephen Libby & Gary Gaugler, Jr., July 29, 2020
Description
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Steve and Gary talk about how the COVID-19 virus is affecting them. They talk about each working from home and how it affects themselves and each other. They talk about what it’s like at their jobs, and how possible exposure to infection has caused them to reconsider their employment and why. They describe the care they are taking to stay safe and consider why they are not speaking time with people who are not caring the kind of care they are.
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PH40_20
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COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
Date
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2020-07-29
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Copyright remains with the interview subject and their heirs.