7 10 64 https://lgbt.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/1ba89b61c5f191fa57e377fb1a2a305b.png d73647cc46d7e6470862f7ff22f9ccd7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Stories of Lehigh Valley LGBTQ+ Community Members (2022 - ) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Mary Foltz Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Thomas Duane OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LGBT-31.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 April 2, 2022 Thomas Duane, April 2, 2022 (Part 3) LGBT-31 1:38:15 LVLGBT-2022 Stories of Lehigh Valley LGBTQ+ Community Members (2022 - ) Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository Support for the collection of this interview was provided by the American Council of Learned Societies (ACLS). trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Thomas Duane Mary Foltz video/mp4 DuaneThomas_20220402.mov 1.0:|31(5)|64(14)|87(11)|114(5)|139(3)|168(5)|187(9)|208(6)|231(7)|250(7)|269(17)|294(4)|313(17)|334(16)|353(4)|380(9)|401(5)|422(14)|451(5)|472(16)|495(13)|520(7)|547(6)|576(12)|601(8)|622(12)|643(11)|664(13)|687(10)|706(9)|727(6)|752(7)|769(13)|792(14)|821(7)|846(7)|869(6)|892(10)|921(6)|944(5)|965(5)|984(4)|1009(6)|1032(5)|1055(5)|1078(6)|1097(5)|1116(13)|1141(3)|1160(12)|1185(12)|1210(16)|1237(7)|1260(7)|1287(4)|1304(10)|1327(3)|1352(13)|1373(3)|1392(5)|1417(6)|1438(13)|1461(10)|1484(14)|1507(13)|1534(16)|1557(11)|1580(16)|1603(4)|1628(9)|1649(4)|1678(17)|1709(13)|1740(11)|1769(7)|1790(8)|1817(11)|1834(15)|1861(9)|1884(10)|1911(11)|1940(6)|1967(5)|1994(16)|2019(9)|2046(12)|2071(5)|2094(15)|2119(4)|2144(2)|2177(2)|2206(4)|2227(11)|2252(13)|2277(17)|2300(15)|2333(4)|2366(16)|2377(10) 0 https://youtu.be/uMdnRN9RYm8 YouTube video English 0 Interview Introductions MARY FOLTZ: My name is Mary Foltz, and I'm here again with Senator Thomas Duane to talk about his life and experiences as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. Our project has funding from ACLS, and today we are meeting again at his offices in Manhattan, and it's April 2nd, 2022. So earlier we signed a consent form. I'm just going to go back through some consent questions. Do you consent to this interview today? &#13 ; &#13 ; THOMAS DUANE: Yes. 0 364 Motivation for Running for City Council&#13 ; MF: Well, we're so glad to talk to you again today. And yesterday we ended in 1991. We talked about your runs for city council and your successful run for city council. And I want to start today, I know we're going to move into your work on city council, but I just I wanted to start with why did you run for city council? What were the issues that mattered to you that inspired that run? Could you talk a little bit about, you know, why city council? Why did you decide to run? &#13 ; &#13 ; TD: Well. There was no openly gay member on the city council when I ran in ‘89, you know, sort of around ‘85 and somebody actually ran very many years before that, Jim Owles is his name, and also lost. But the person who ran before me, David Berg, did very well. And, I just thought it was important that there be an openly queer person on the city council and the district after ‘89 was drawn to make it more… to give a better shot -- to give to make the odds better for a gay person to win. 0 906 Joy of the Journey TD: And this is a terrible way to talk about this, except for it's kind of the right way, but it's inappropriate, but it's perfect, you know, and I even say this to my students, oh, my gosh, if anyone ever sees this. But I do preface it by like, I know this is inappropriate and I just-- but, you know, I need to explain something to you as you move forward in life. I said it's the joy of the journey, which is a which is a 12-step slogan. 0 1100 Concentrating on Supporters TD: And I oftentimes tell people running for office that, you know, we can always talk about the orgasm part, but I do say, like be present in the moment while you’re doing this because this really is like the, you know, this is -- I mean, it's best to win, it is better than losing, but it's really being present, you know, as it goes through. And just concentrate on the people that are unexpectedly for you, not the people that you thought were going to be for you, but aren't, you know, focus on the ones that are for you. 0 1451 Unfair Press Coverage / Fashion Sense TD: And I just I complained at one point, I believe, about how, you know, I always noticed that when women elected officials are covered in the press, even though they're trying to be better now, but the press would always talk about what they were wearing or what their hair was like. And I used to get that, too. 0 1590 City Council Endeavors / Setting Regulations MF: You do have that cool factor. I want to talk about -- So you get into office 1991. What's happening on city council at that time? What are the big issues that you're facing with city council? What are you fighting for at that time? &#13 ; &#13 ; TD: Well, I think people. Like me, maybe originally think that you get elected to house the homeless and feed the hungry. And that is something that is always there. It's something, you know, I'm always fighting for. But it was also about sidewalk cafes and discothèques and, you know, quality of life issues, which was [inaudible] because there were things that I hadn't really noticed before, for instance. Whether you call them peddlers or vendors, but people on the street who would put their wares out on the sidewalk, some people really hate that. I never even really noticed. I just thought, you know, it came with the territory. In fact, right across the street from where I live, there were people who would put things out. 0 1921 Discothèques TD: Noise complaints at the time, discothèques, discos were very big and they were both gay and non-gay and they tended to be concentrated in my district and some of them, many of them, you know, absolutely no problems and nobody complained about them. But sometimes when a place would become less in and say sort of a way that these places where first it would be gay, then it would be slowly but surely more heterosexual, white, heterosexual, and then it would mostly become people of color, be it was, say, urban youth. And but the responsibility for how a disco was many, many owners of these places licensed it out to promoters. 0 2161 Loftdwellers / Ensuring Habitable Real Estate/Living Conditions for New Yorkers TD: Again, I had a lot of especially, I then, but in my district I had a lot of loft dwellers who had moved into manufacturing or commercial spaces and had fixed them up and they had to fight landlords to be allowed to stay. So, there was a whole battle over saving tenants who were lofts. And I got even more when I was elected to the Senate because I got all of SoHo and TriBeCa where there were, you know, even more of these lofts. 0 2642 Fighting for Tenants TD: But, of course, I was fighting for a lot of other, you know, you know, on behalf of tenants. And I got you know, I passed a bill and again, this has been improved upon after I left, but it made it illegal for a landlord to discriminate against someone based on how they paid their rent. So people are probably familiar with the Section Eight program. So it would be illegal to discriminate against someone because they paid their rent with a Section Eight voucher. 0 2754 Division of AIDS Services (DAS) TD: So I like that bill a lot, actually, and I'm glad that it got built upon. You know, another bill to make it so that buildings would have the lighting outside to make the streets safer. And but, you know, the two -- maybe the two things that I'll be most remembered for. Maybe the two biggest things. One was, I'm putting -- there was an agency that was started by Mayor Ed Koch and continued through Mayor Dinkins. And it put within our city human resources department where people get their entitlements or their benefits, government benefits, something called the Division of AIDS Services, DAS. It’s now called HASA, [HIV/AIDS Services Administration]. At the time, it was DHS, and when Mayor Giuliani was running for office, he said that he'd heard from people that it didn't work that well. 0 2947 Speaking Against Homophobic Comments in Council TD: And really, I was able to only because of my press visit, you know, when I said earlier where, you know, because it was the case, but it's also having a seat at the table. I'm sorry. I should have said that. That's maybe the most important thing that changes everything to have a seat at the table. And so my being there was very helpful. And I had had a. When I first got elected to the council, the chair of the health committee had been there for a very long time and was kind of an old fashioned gentlemen, I’ll say. He was quoted in the papers as saying that gay rights caused AIDS. 0 3341 Creating Fair Treatment for HIV/AIDS Patients TD: Well, the battle continued to stop the you know, reconfiguring, reforming the Division of AIDS Services, you know, and one of the things that happened was by… Well, every year in the budget, everybody in the council would fight to stop the mayor's cuts to the Division of AIDS Services. So that was very important and they were very sensitive to that. And that was very you know, that's no substitute for a seat at the table kind of thing. So not just because of being gay, but the HIV was very powerful for making that be a reality that everyone then cared a little bit. I mean, many of them did care about the Division of AIDS Services, but they cared maybe just a little bit more now that they understood the stakes are so high that, you know, there was a possibility of under, you know. 0 3847 Battling for Domestic Partner Benefits TD: The other thing that I'm probably very known for was a battle to provide domestic partner benefits, which would only go to city employees. You couldn't mandate that private employers would provide domestic partnership benefits. But previously there had been a bill where there was just a registry, and that entitles you to visit whoever it was in the hospital and I don't even think you got benefits, but it was just a place to sort of recognize your relationship in some way. 0 4131 Advocating for Community-Created Land and Zoning Plans / Attempting to Create Affordable Housing TD: But, you know, I also was a big champion of communities being able to create their own land use and zoning plans. So there was in the new city charter which made 51 city councilman was there something in there that said that a community board could bring forward their own land use and zoning plan. They had to go through, you know, reviews and hearings and everything for the plan. And then the City Planning Commission would have to decide whether or not to accept it. 0 4365 Chelsea Planning Committee TD: And the Chelsea Planning Committee had been, it was a combination of, like, small business owners and people who cared deeply about preservation because we expanded the Chelsea historic district and housing activists and just, you know, average citizens in Chelsea that all wanted to sort of preserve the character of the neighborhood. And everybody got everything they wanted except for the people who were fighting for low income housing, really, more or less my team, are the ones that got blocked out. 0 4633 Keeping Records / Sign-on Letters TD: Oh. I'm trying to think if there's -- I mean, I could list, you know, a whole number of things that I did that were, you know, really very good things, just not very high profile. But let me say I also did something. There were a few things that I started. We used to cut out – this is me with scissors -- cut out newspaper articles if I was in it, and we kept them in scrapbooks, and we also kept every letter that we wrote about anything, because a lot of them could be, you know, reused in a way. 0 4745 Community Boards TD: And the other thing I did was elected officials go to these community boards, which I've talked about. Over 50 members from neighborhoods that make advisory just, you know, resolutions to be sent to elected officials and to the city government, sometimes even to state. And I would -- and what would happen is a good staff member who you would send to that community board, would they say, and the council member did this, the council member did that. 0 4984 Learning New Things While on Council / ConEd TD: And I, I feel strongly -- I want people to be able to do that. And one of the reasons I love being on the city council is we had lots and lots of public hearings on the city council. And I loved learning new things. And, you know, I know a lot about a few things and a little about a lot of things but I know not very much at all about a lot of things. And I would learn things in a [inaudible] they worked in the constituent issues where if they were focused on an issue, I would say go for it because I could be the mouthpiece for it. But it made me smarter too. 0 5174 Transforming Real Estate for Community Organizations TD: You know, there was a, you know, real estate wasn't doing that well in the early nineties. And there's this city owned building. It had been a library and the city wanted to sell it. And the local community board… and I supported this wholeheartedly because it had to go through city government, set aside for some kind of social services group. So, I mean, you could be the coalition for the homeless. It really could have been -- it turned out to be God's Love We Deliver, which is fine. And so they've been there ever since. They don't just -- God's Love We Deliver is a food delivery program for people with AIDS, that was much needed. And, you know, in the days of HIV and AIDS where there is -- when it was wasting disease. 0 5411 Closing Remarks MF: Well, I apologize, but we're going to have to stop because our video camera has -- we've taken up all of storage space.&#13 ; &#13 ; TD: This is what happens with my relationships, too. They get tired of me. [laughs] &#13 ; &#13 ; MF: But we're not tired of the you we just ran out of the ability to save the interview. &#13 ; &#13 ; TD: Well. 0 MovingImage Thomas Duane describes his time in the New York City Council, advocating for the LGBTQ+ community, fighting for the Division of AIDS Services (DAS), and working to ensure habitable living conditions for New Yorkers. MARY FOLTZ: My name is Mary Foltz, and I'm here again with Senator Thomas Duane to talk about his life and experiences as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. Our project has funding from ACLS, and today we are meeting again at his offices in Manhattan and it's April 2nd, 2022. So earlier we signed a consent form. I'm just going to go back through some consent questions. Do you consent to this interview today? THOMAS DUANE: Yes. MF: And do you consent to having this interview transcribed, digitized and made publicly available online and in searchable formats? TD: Absolutely, yes. MF: And do you consent to the LGBT archive using your interview for educational purposes that could include films, articles, websites, presentations or other formats? TD: Does that mean they'll know I'm gay? MF: Yes, it does mean that. TD: All right. All right. MF: So that's a yes. TD: Yes. MF: And then just like the yesterday, you'll have 30 days to review the transcript and then decide if you want to pull the interview. We'll just delete it. You could delete parts of the interview or you can contribute the whole thing. Okay. TD: Yes, I got this thing. Will, I really read it? You know what I mean? Right. You know, let's say best efforts to read it, but I doubt I'll take anything out. But you never know. MF: Well, you'll have the opportunity to do that. And we won't post it -- TD: Read like, a couple of hours about me, but I mean. MF: Well, you'll have that offer. So we ended -- TD: Call my therapist like "hello?" MF: Yeah, well, your therapist could review the draft. [laughs] So yesterday I was just so grateful to talk to you yesterday. And thank you so much for talking with me again today. TD: I think it's important that people know that every day that I've been filmed, I have been late. I have arrived late. I do have a lateness issue, but it's been a little extreme so. Usually it's best to tell me an hour before, like lie about the time. But then I'm not always that way. It's just it's an occasional thing. It's part of my ADHD, which I didn't find out I had til I was in my forties. I don't know what I have talked about that, but my therapist at the time said, you know, you might have ADHD and his wife, who is an art therapist, has ADHD. Or A.D.D. or whatever. It's, you know, it's a spectrum, I guess. And he's said why don't you go see Dr. so and so, he's an expert in the field. So, I went to see him and he gave me a test. Fortunately, no homework. He just asked me questions. I answered them and then he said that is the highest -- or you are off the charts. It was like the best grade I ever got in an exam. And but it just made -- then I was like, oh. Because my default is "I'm stupid and lazy and can't follow directions". And that's, you know. It's because of my, you know, the way I learn things. And, you know, I'm not stupid. I mean, I don't think I'm the smartest person in the room usually, but, you know, I can compete. I'm not lazy. Like I got elected to office, it's not, you know. But I don't really follow directions very well. That is true. I mean, sometimes I do, but I mean, like, you know, how to set up something, you know, a new TV or something just to tear it up because it's written by people who already know how to do it. Like, I need someone to write it who's, like, doing it, you know, learning how to do it. Like, I am. So as soon as I, you know, explain to me, show me. Don't do it for me, but let me do it and, you know, make mistakes. And then once I got it, I got it. But it just takes me. I don't know whether you should. I could stay longer. I need to look at it in a different way. But did -- because the first year after that, I really I cried a few times. I think, you know, that's what it is. Because, you know, my family used to say, you don't stick to anything, which I guess is which is a combination of all of, you know, I didn't get as good grades as my brothers and, you know, I get an A in something and they'd be like, oh you're going to get an A in that, why don't you get an A in everything. Like, you don't know how hard it was to get that A. And I, by the way, I did like I was -- I just wasn't the top class. It was like this second class out of nine. But, you know, so it was a -- you know, even though it was very good, it was a self-esteem issue that I couldn't, you know, measure up. And I sometimes say, you know, I exceled at everything that my parents hated. So, you know, anyway, but that was important information for me because then I knew sometimes when someone tried to explain something to me that I would say, you know, we'll tell you a little bit about it and let me ask questions. And then after, if there's more that you think I should know, then tell me then. But if you just keep going, I'm just going to get lost and, you know, keep stopping this question. So let me just do it this way. We'll save a lot of time. It really, you know, it helped. And then people got used to my way of figuring things out, you know, anyway. MF: Well, you were on time today, I just wanna say. So, and we were the ones that were behind. TD: Because I took the subway, which is just one stop. Although I don't want to support the subways and boost the ridership. Ordinarily, I would walk here, but then I'd be all sweaty when I arrived. So I thought it would be better if I was cool, calm, and collected when I got here. Anyway... MF: Well, we're so glad to talk to you again today. And yesterday we ended in 1991. We talked about your runs for city council and your successful run for city council. And I want to start today, I know we're going to move into your work on city council, but I just I wanted to start with why did you run for city council? What were the issues that mattered to you that inspired that run? Could you talk a little bit about, you know, why city council? Why did you decide to run? TD: Well. There was no openly gay member on the city council when I ran in '89, you know, sort of around '85 and somebody actually ran very many years before that, Jim Owles  is his name, and also lost. But the person who ran before me, David Berg, did very well. And, I just thought it was important that there be an openly queer person on the city council and the district after '89 was drawn to make it more-- to give a better shot -- to give to make the odds better for a gay person to win. And, it's a tough question in a way, because I'm going to sort of preface it with something else. I had a -- he's still alive, but he's just not living in New York. Had a very good friend who is a police officer. And when I was campaigning in 1989, I bumped into him on the street. I knew him a little bit from the neighborhood, but I didn't know he was a police officer and he asked me a lot of questions. And I guess I did okay. And then he said, you know, I'm a police officer. I said, oh, no, I didn't know that. And he you know, in the course of the conversation, he said, you know, I was called to do this work to be a police officer. It's more or less a vocation, like some become a priest, or a minister, or rabbi. It just it called me, it pulled me. I didn't really have any choice. And that made a lot of sense to me. And it's not that I had never run for something before, obviously I'd run for district leader. And I'm sure I think I ran for, I may have run for something at Lehigh, but I wasn't like [inaudible]. Well, I would -- I always thought of myself as not very competitive, but actually I think I'm bloodthirsty competitive. I mean, I don't know if I could have hurt people, but like, I'm, you know, focused and determined. But I did have all this community experience, you know, neighborhood issues and also the LGBTQIA things and the HIV crisis, the AIDS crisis was still raging. So, I feel as if I was called to do it. And on some level, I just knew that I could. And it's hard. I talked about, you know, I ran and then I lost, but I ran again. And it is a special, you know, club of people who are willing to do it again. So, I feel like the pull was very strong to do it. And so I think that's why I feel like I had no choice in a way. But I also was very aware that, you know, I could get a lot done and everyone could do an awful lot without a title, you know, without a public office. But it's a helpful tool, you know, so that was -- I also factored that in that it would be a good way to bring attention to things that I cared about. And I like people. And actually, I was a painfully, pathologically shy child. And whenever I started school and really, you know, elementary school and high school and Lehigh, in the beginning I would be very shy, not -- I don't know whether I was afraid or not as time went on. But until I got the lay of the land and then I could, you know, come out as myself. But there is something a little, you know. I mean, I have a few very good friends that know everything about me. And if they don't, it's just because, you know, I forgot. You know, we just didn't talk about it, but I would speak with him about it. But I think I was able to overcome this shyness. And it's sort of easier if there's just something between me and you. I don't have to be on a stage or something. But, you know, if I'm campaigning and I have to go up to strangers like I'm going to hand them a flier or someone else is going to like the reason that I'm doing it. So, it's not just, oh, all of a sudden, you know, we're really good friends, although I really like people a lot. So, the shyness, it's a paradox, you know, and I -- and it does account for some when I talk about my sort of intimacy issues and, you know, close sort of romantic relationships, you know, it does kind of make sense then also. But I also have this, you know, I said I've said that, you know, children, teenagers, animals feel safe around me. And I feel I love that about myself. I feel like it's a gift. And I also, I'm very empathetic and I can take in people's pain like I'm someone that people can talk to about something painful in their lives. But, in a way that I want to say, it doesn't take a toll like I'm able to do it. It does a little bit take a toll on me when I think back on it. But it's more the toll is more like, you know, it's like sort of like an even deeper empathy in a way, you know, with how brave it is for people to go through the things that they go through. And, you know, I am the keeper of many, many, many, many secrets. And I'll go to my grave, you know, people who are queer, people who maybe -- people living with HIV, people who had a person in their family who died of AIDS. But they don't tell people. But that also translates into other, you know, people who are, I don't wanna say outliers because there's never just one person. But you know someone who there's something unique and special and you know about them or, something that's happened to them or someone in their family that they. It's painful for them to share, but it's important. And I'm open to hearing about that. And I don't, I won't ever tell anybody about it. I'll sometimes if I see you again, I'll repeat back to you what you told me. And I realized some people would get startled and I would be like, No, no, no, no. I'm just telling you, you know, I just want you to know that I remember what you said. Like, I saw you. And I'm only telling you that I remember our conversation and what that was. And sometimes that impacted what I ended up fighting for in office too, things that had happened with people and I think I was always that way. And I think it's something my, certainly my mother, you know, in her good moments, of which there were many, but not all. Something that she did reference about me, that she did know that about me and, so I feel fortunate also. And I brought that into my political life, my community activist life, and then my my political life and running for office. So, I was called to do it. And really, I feel like I had no choice. I just had to do it the next thing that I was supposed to do. And this is a terrible way to talk about this, except for it's kind of the right way, but it's inappropriate, but it's perfect, you know, and I even say this to my students, oh, my gosh, if anyone ever sees this. But I do preface it by like, I know this is inappropriate and I just-- but, you know, I need to explain something to you as you move forward in life. I said it's the joy of the journey, which is a which is a 12-step slogan. And it really is the joy of the journey. And I see, you know, if you have a goal and you're going towards it, they be present and like enjoy your way to it and maybe you end up going in a different direction because something has happened along the way. But when you achieve whatever it is that you wanted to achieve, it's kind of like having an orgasm. Like the good part is the foreplay. Then, you know, when you get there, when you have the orgasm, it's over. So, and then you have to think about what's next. So, I just urge you to, you know, enjoy this part of it as you go towards whatever it is that you are going towards. And I'm not sure I always did that, you know, that I stopped to do it and I have kind of learned, or I'm better at not giving advice when it's not asked for. And, you know, there are two kinds of advice. Someone might ask, do they want confirmation of what they already think, or do they really want advice? And I often ask them, do you want me to, you know, agree with you? Or say, that's fine, you know, or do you really want my advice? But I got to meet Congressmember Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, and I talked with her a little bit and she's just as amazing as you would think she is. And she didn't know who I was, and she talked to me anyway. She's just so smart and just so nice and open and, like, I love her. And, when we stopped talking, she was kind of walking, we were on a platform together. And I went over to her and I said, You know, I don't I really I don't usually give people unsolicited advice. But I said, you know, ask some your staff to make sure that you put aside a half an hour or an hour to write down what's happened in that day, because you'll probably remember it, but I always wished I had kept a diary of what happened. And because it's going to be very important in you're living during amazing times. So, I don't know whether she did it or not. And, you know, I didn't even know, I kind of knew I should. So it's fine if she doesn't, and she actually because of social media and many other things, there'll be more of a record of, you know, what her life is like, but, there's also always an internal thing that goes on and like, I'm very good at sharing that about myself. She's very good about sharing personal things about herself, but there is always sort of another level to everything. So that was it. And I oftentimes tell people running for office that, you know, we can always talk about the orgasm part, but I do say, like be present in the moment while you're doing this because this really is like the, you know, this is -- I mean, it's best to win, it is better than losing, but it's really being present, you know, as it goes through. And just concentrate on the people that are unexpectedly for you, not the people that you thought were going to be for you, but aren't, you know, focus on the ones that are for you. And, you know, you have to be kind to the ones that for have a reason, you know, aren't. But don't worry about them right now. Just focus on the people that are supporting you, especially the people who are. Don't take for granted people who are, you know, of course, what they would be for you. But, you know, also concentrate or give, you know, I've taken the feeling good about the people who support you, who you never thought were going to support you or came to help you just -- and you don't know why. That and, if you don't believe what you're saying about an issue, people -- I believe people can tell you're not telling the truth. And so the only thing is that I also learned is that I usually wouldn't take it unless there's a press conference and take a question from a reporter. But in those cases I would practice before, but I had a very good consultant later on. His name is Margot and he, whenever I ask him about a difficult issue, he would always start off with, What do you think? What do you think? You know? And then we could talk about a way to frame it in a way that people could hear it. So I didn't change my position at all, but I was able to explain, give my, you know, position and explain it in a way that people could hear it. Because I also had another wise professor at the JFK School who said, I only do that, just I mean, I'm honored to have gone there. It was a wonderful experience. It really was. And just there was so much wisdom. And he said, and I can't remember why. Okay, I'm a ground. Oh, that politics is oftentimes like the art of telling people something that they can't hear or that they don't want to hear in a way that, you know, they are able to hear to the best of their ability, that you can say it to them, you know, in a way that they can hear it, even if they don't agree with you. So there's a way to tell people things that they may not agree with, that you know, makes it easier for them to hear. And I think that I did that because I had that big experience with, like, the national press when I was running in '91 that whenever possible, I knew what my positions were on things. But I did try to think of the best ways to say it so that people could hear it and understand it. And, you know, many times it's something that, you know, it's personal, the reason that I feel a certain way and I was fortunate my district was pretty progressive in some ways. I think I was more progressive than they were, but I think they liked that I was a little bit more progressive than they were, you know, because they had other responsibilities, you know, protecting whatever their families or, I don't know, their businesses or whatever it maybe I did something that might not seem like it would be in the best interests of their family. But on the other hand, I think that they sometimes wanted to be altruistic and wanted me to do that on their behalf, even if they themselves couldn't do it and I was in a position to do it. As I say, my face is turning red. For some reason I'm having a shame attack about I'm saying good things about myself. So this is what happens. I have a shame attack, which is something. Thanks, Dad. It starts here and it comes up, and then my face turns red. And I didn't say anything I should be ashamed of, but it just it's an automatic, you know, response. And I lived with a lot of shame in my life. And it wasn't until there was an absence of shame in my life because of work that I had done and myself to get, you know, psychologically, spiritually better. It wasn't until I had a lack of shame or that I realized when I was feeling shame because I lived with shame almost all the time, which is kind of a heavy burden. But I, you know, I moved on through it, but I am glad that I figured that out, that, that I don't have to take on shame that doesn't belong to me, even if my body doesn't always reflect that like I know here. But this just red, you know, I'm Irish, so, you know, red. You can really see it. Anyway. MF: I can't see it. You're a little flushed, but you're glowy. TD: And it's because I of my COVID beard, which I never had before. I was, you know, the clean shaven, wholesome, dressed like a Republican elected official. Even though I was for [laughs] -- some of my best friends -- I know people are no - I know people who are Republicans. But you know, I'm a very, very liberal Democrat. So, but I dress you know, I dress like every other elected official, you know, dressed. And, you know, I think it's a nice tie. Right? I have pretty good taste in ties. MF: I love your tie. TD: And I said it's a little too fall-ish for this since we're talking in the spring but still I think I hope it's popping. MF: It's popping. TD: And I just I complained at one point, I believe, about how, you know, I always noticed that when women elected officials are covered in the press, even though they're trying to be better now, but the press would always talk about what they were wearing or what their hair was like. And I used to get that, too. You know, people would comment on what I was wearing and my council, nobody who I love. I just loved him. He is a heterosexual. And he noticed very early on that that was something that happened. And, you know, it's not something that I didn't push back against it. It just was -- it wasn't worth the fight. But it made me very, again, you know, empathetic towards what women have to go through. And it also I mean. Well, I mean. Comments about things like that. I often -- people of color get comments like that, too, you know, like heterosexual white males, men who I realized have stuff too. Sometimes their lives are not easy, but that's not really usually commented on what their tie was, what shirt they were wearing, you know what I mean, or what if they got a haircut? It's not -- but anyone who's not, it's something that comes up as a description of them as if, you know, I want to make sure that it's presumed that you're, you know, a heterosexual white male unless you, like, say things to make it obvious that the person is not that, you know, anyway. I digress. But I was called to do it because I have such a great fashion sense. No, I did represent FIT, Fashion Institute of Technology, which I love, but, oh. One time I was in the elevator at FIT going to a community meeting and there was some students from FIT and I just get to, like, an off-price store and bought a pair of shoes and I -- so I was out with these kids, and I said to him, What do you think of these shoes? They're like, Oh they're cool. And I -- yes. That made my day. Yes, I could still have, you know, that cool factor. So, anyway. MF: You do have that cool factor. I want to talk about -- So you get into office 1991. What's happening on city council at that time? What are the big issues that you're facing with city council? What are you fighting for at that time? TD: Well, I think people. Like me, maybe originally think that you get elected to house the homeless and feed the hungry. And that is something that is always there. It's something, you know, I'm always fighting for. But it was also about sidewalk cafes and discothèques and, you know, quality of life issues, which was [inaudible] because there were things that I hadn't really noticed before, for instance. Whether you call them peddlers or vendors, but people on the street who would put their wares out on the sidewalk, some people really hate that. I never even really noticed. I just thought, you know, it came with the territory. In fact, right across the street from where I live, there were people who would put things out. And it's a bit of a complicated issue, which you can never say never say something is complicated because. Even if it is. There are laws covering which you can vend and where you can vend. But if you are selling used books or magazines that's protected by the First Amendment, you can't tell someone like that to move. You can say you have to be a certain number of feet away from a door to a store or a subway grate. So there are regulations about where you can do that. And, you know. A lot of these people are, you know, somewhat marginalized. And I was not -- and I was empathetic towards everyone to put them out of business. But I remember going out with a measuring tape with some people from a block association, you know, to be sure that they're within the regulations. And I had to be, you know, the law is the law, you know, and if I don't like the law, then I should, you know, fight to change it. And so quality of life issues was, you know, a huge thing. There's an area in my district, the meatpacking district, which for it was really exactly what it's called, Meatpacking district. You would see, you know, cows was hanging from these things outside, which is now a historic district. So they've kept these sort of overhangs over the buildings in many places. But the only people who were there were the people who worked in the meat industry. And many of them were in the butchers union, I know. And but there were also a couple of gay bars opened in that area so then there were gay people there and then sex workers and I'll just say in this case, predominantly non-binary sex workers, whether they still had male genitalia or not, sort of started to move away from Times Square because this is an issue that came up. Tom Duane and Rudy Giuliani [inaudible] which I'll get to, but a lot of the sex industry stuff was moved out of Times Square and moved into the Meatpacking District and the area right around it, which is 14th Street and that part of Village got gentrified even a little bit more. And more people started to live in Manhattan who had children, used to be they weren't that many children who lived in Manhattan. And so there are people who probably didn't like seeing that, you know, transgender sex workers. You know, providing their services in a place where their children might be able to see it and you know, I understand that. And I have empathy towards the sex workers because no one does that because that's what they want to do. They're doing that because that's all. It's the only way to make money. And but the law is the law, you know. So that's really how I would respond to it. And I would torture young people who I was hiring. And I would ask them that question if a constituent calls to ask what can be done about sex workers, you know, near where I live and my children see it and, you know, they would always start off at the place that I would have started. Well, you know, job training programs, and [inaudible] is available to transgender -- I mean, maybe slightly better now. But, you know. And yes, I agree. However, the law is the law, you know. And so that was tough that that kind of issue. Noise complaints at the time, discothèques, discos were very big and they were both gay and non-gay and they tended to be concentrated in my district and some of them, many of them, you know, absolutely no problems and nobody complained about them. But sometimes when a place would become less in and say sort of a way that these places where first it would be gay, then it would be slowly but surely more heterosexual, white, heterosexual, and then it would mostly become people of color, be it was, say, urban youth. And but the responsibility for how a disco was many, many owners of these places licensed it out to promoters. And so it was very much the responsibility of the promoters on how the clientele was that they brought in. And sometimes they just didn't care, you know? And that was when problems, of course, but there was a just a huge movement to get rid of discos. But of course there were a lot of people in my district who went to discos too. So that was very difficult and I had to sort of try to craft legislation that would have enough for everyone to hate and enough for everyone to like. And it was -- one time when Debra Glick, my friend, who had been elected to the assembly, so she was the first openly gay person elected to the state legislature, had an article because -- or an op-ed I think or something. There was a news story on SONDA, I think the nondiscrimination law had passed. And in the times and the same day, there was an op-ed for me, it was a Saturday. And, you know, you don't write the headlines, but the headline was Save Our Discos exclamation point. Oh, did I get letters like he or she's doing this really substantive stuff and you're trying to save the discos? You know, it was like, couldn't you have run my op-ed on a different page? And I did go after bad disco operators. So, but the weird thing is now, and you had to have a cabaret license and if you had just a normal bar and you didn't have a cabaret license that would permit dancing, you could be fined, etc., you know, and too many fines and you could be knocked out of business. Now you can dance anywhere. Like they eliminated the entire cabaret part of the licensing laws. You can -- because big discos are no longer like a thing, you know? And that what people really objected to was the loud noise that young people made when they were leaving. And it would be late because, boy, stay open until 4:00 in New York. So they were you know, that was disturbing to people and I understand that. And more and more decided to have children in these lofts because they were large. They were mostly in Flatiron or the far west side of Manhattan, where there's a lot of brownstones and families who didn't. So, you know, their children would be awakened. Anyway. So, I did have some of course, I feel badly for them also, and their property values are tanking. And I'd be like, Oh, if only I had some money, I'd buy it from you. You know, prices are terrible. No one's real estate ever went below what they bought it for, but it just stopped going up. But I did think sometimes, like, did you look out your window when you moved in? Like, did you not see this was like an industrial block before you moved in and you know, now and that is a big problem in New York. Again, I had a lot of especially, I then, but in my district I had a lot of loft dwellers who had moved into manufacturing or commercial spaces and had fixed them up and they had to fight landlords to be allowed to stay. So, there was a whole battle over saving tenants who were lofts. And I got even more when I was elected to the Senate because I got all of SoHo and TriBeCa where there were, you know, even more of these lofts. But for many people, they moved in when it was cheap, you know, but then the different things happened. You said people would maybe when a new tenant came in and the people who had been living there would sell everything that they had done to fix up the loft to the incoming tenants, they might be more well-heeled than the original artist or whoever who had moved in, so they had paid more in a way for their space. And also as these buildings became legalized, because there were certain things that a landlord would have to do. So, this is an issue that I have to work on, and I'm glad to do it, though it was complicated. Landlords had to bring the building up to residential code, which is different than, you know, commercial or manufacturing. And at that point, then the tenants up until that point, tenants would have to would not be given a rent increase and they would only get rent increases that went along with all other apartments that were rent regulated at the the rent increases would only ever be the same percentage as regular apartment units. And the landlord was required to keep the building habitable. Anyway, so that that -- I can come to Lehigh and give a whole lecture on loft dwelling and what happened with lofts in New York City. Because, you know, in New York City, just many of these places are just not used for manufacturing anymore. In fact, right here where my office is, this building I think was always an office building. And Chelsea was like this along Sixth Avenue. And now we're on Eighth Avenue where the nicer real estate would be on the corners, and the mid-block was where the factories were. And that's a throwback from the 18th century because, you know, fancy people or, you know, would be on the avenues and the stores would be nicer and the avenues and the offices would be nicer. And the avenues of mid-block is where manufacturing everywhere in the garment center. And they actually made a lot of garments here. There's not quite so much of it anymore and a lot of these buildings have been converted to office buildings and some were converted to residential buildings. So but it is important that every place is habitable for people, whether they live someplace and they work someplace. I mean, I represented -- you know, factories have to maintain certain standards. It was in New York City where there was the terrible fire where the ladies garment workers were locked into there. They couldn't get out. And that's what led to some of the the making sure that there was, you know, egress for everyone and that they were habitable, that there was water so people could wash up and use the bathroom. And, you know, many different rules and regulations came into place after that. So, you know, there is -- I represent an area where there is that history also, and I represent even more of that area when I was a state senator. I picked up even more territory. So, you know, that terrible, horrible tragedy did lead to better working conditions. But the truth is, I can look out the window here and there's still some sweatshops here and I can tell where they are by the windows. And we could go into greater depth on how, you know, I can tell that. But it's also similar to places that are, you know, they're... They seem to be massage parlors, but they don't say they're massage parlors. They say they'll, you know, rub down or they used other words. They don't say massage because you need a license to be a massage therapist. And they really just to cover for people where people are doing sex work and many of them have been trafficked or... There's a whole host of reasons why women, not only women, but mostly women get trapped into that and, when I was in the Senate, I was able to pass a bill that did something positive for the people who had been trapped into really indentured servitude. And to have to do whatever it is they were told to do, and we'll talk about that at another point. But, you know, people also didn't like to have prostitution in their buildings. And I did just say prostitution. I sense that people [inaudible] one of the floors of this building is used for prostitution. So, there'll be sex workers there and people appropriately didn't like that there were strangers coming in and out of the building. So, you know, I don't even want to say legal -- In a way, I feel like there should be no laws about sex work except when someone is harming someone. It's the same way I feel about choice. Like there should be no laws. The laws should be silent, but there should be laws to protect people who are being hurt. And there already are, but there should be more. And that's the way we should do things that are very important to me, that people have autonomy over their own bodies. And if they're being forced to use their bodies in a way that they don't want to or they're not being protected. You know, sometimes I've worked with the people organizing, people worked in the house, wants to make sure that they had appropriate safety gear, masks. And anyway, I feel very strongly about that. But we should be silent on the way anyone is using their bodies aggressively go after we mostly go after women almost completely to try to control what they can do with their bodies. And I think the law should just be silent on that. I don't think that was a particularly popular view in my district that I probably never led with that because the law was the law and you weren't supposed to be, you know, having sex work going on in a building. I had constituents who -- RASP, residents against street prostitution. And I was just saying like, So you don't care if it's indoors, you just don't want it on the street? Yes, that's what they didn't care. They just didn't want the sex work happening on the street. They wanted it behind closed doors. So they're very, you know, a lot of gradations of like, so many levels of like where people are on on sex work. And of course, nobody ever wants to talk about sex. It's a whole big issue, like how you really shut things down or off as soon as I start to say something about sex. Like just stop, we're not talking about sex anymore. Not that I did that often, but I did it more of this in the state Senate than on City Council. But, of course, I was fighting for a lot of other, you know, you know, on behalf of tenants. And I got you know, I passed a bill and again, this has been improved upon after I left, but it made it illegal for a landlord to discriminate against someone based on how they paid their rent. So people are probably familiar with the Section Eight program. So it would be illegal to discriminate against someone because they paid their rent with a Section Eight voucher. But also, we have a program for seniors that, depending on what their income is, the rent in their apartment is not allowed. When the rent is increased, the city will make up the difference of the seniors' income, which it offers is very static. And then people from the Division of Aid Services, which we'll talk about also, they're paid the city pays their rent. So this bill needed that. Now, no one can discriminate. The law that I was able to get passed said, if you got any kind of city tax abatements or any kind of favorable, the recipient of, you know, something from a city program that, you know, made your cost less, they were the ones who couldn't discriminate. So the city gave them something or the state gave them something that brought down their cost. Well, they are not allowed to discriminate now. No one's allowed discriminate based on who how people pay their rent. But at the time that was it was sort of the first step towards prohibiting discrimination against people who were poor. So I like that bill a lot, actually, and I'm glad that it got built upon. You know, another bill to make it so that buildings would have the lighting outside to make the streets safer. And but, you know, the two -- maybe the two things that I'll be most remembered for. Maybe the two biggest things. One was, I'm putting -- there was an agency that was started by Mayor Ed Koch and continued through Mayor Dinkins. And it put within our city human resources department where people get their entitlements or their benefits, government benefits, something called the Division of AIDS Services, DAS. It's now called HASA, [HIV/AIDS Services Administration]. At the time, it was DHS, and when Mayor Giuliani was running for office, he said that he'd heard from people that it didn't work that well. That's true. You know, like many government agencies, it was a little slow to action. And, you know, maybe people with AIDS were in more dire need of services. I'm not sure that's 100% true. I think it might also have been kind of empowered gay white men who had never had to be involved with entitlements or benefits that way. But for whatever reason, it was not running smoothly. So when Mayor Giuliani got elected, he wanted to totally eliminate the division of AIDS services. So huge battle demonstrations, arrests, ACT UP. And I was on the council to save DAS. And even though they said, Oh, we [inaudible] it didn't really work that well. But the thing that Mayor Giuliani, first of all, he beat an African American person. And I believe there was... There was definitely racism involved in that, similar to the backlash, I think from President Obama where people are like, oh my God, you know, we have a black mayor, or we have, you know, a black president and that like whips them up into a frenzy, anyway. But Mayor Giuliani backed off eliminating the Division of AIDS Services, not because he cared about people with AIDS, but sort of people who consider themselves moderate to liberal. You know, Democrats, some of them had voted for Mayor Giuliani and he didn't want to lose their votes because they know, That's terrible. He's cutting a program for these people who are suffering and poor. So he backed off and then he started to have meetings on how to restructure the Division of AIDS Services, which was just another way to get rid of it. And we had to fight against that. And on the city council every year, I actually get everybody in the council to -- there was a committee that had dealt with the General Welfare Committee to push back against making cuts to the agency. And really, I was able to only because of my press visit, you know, when I said earlier where, you know, because it was the case, but it's also having a seat at the table. I'm sorry. I should have said that. That's maybe the most important thing that changes everything to have a seat at the table. And so my being there was very helpful. And I had had a. When I first got elected to the council, the chair of the health committee had been there for a very long time and was kind of an old fashioned gentlemen, I'll say. He was quoted in the papers as saying that gay rights caused AIDS. And it was it was maybe April when it started that January. And I remember because I remember I was going to the Museum of Natural History and it was that that lovely pastel green and pink that everything is before, you know, it pops out. So I was at the Museum of Natural History is very close to Central Park anyway, so I was enjoying how beautiful Central Park was before going to the museum to meet with government people. And I think we had beepers in those days, but my office had called ahead to the museum and you know, to telling the story. So by the time I left, I had to have like a, you know, something prepared to respond to this and the speaker of the city council, someone named Peter Vallone who's old fashion man, but he did allow the gay rights bill to be voted on before I was there. But he always wanted all the council members to get along. He you know, he was the kind of person very nice, never swear or anything. He would often be home, you know, he'd have dinner with his family every night. Just an old fashioned guy. And I'm sure the people around him, I'm sure they said this is a problem. So he got the council and everything was, you know, Williams. So he got Councilmember Williams to back off that. And Councilmember Williams was to have a press conference where he would say that he was whatever, sorry. He said that he didn't -- he misspoke, that gay rights didn't cause AIDS or whatever. So the press conference happens and I'm watching, and he backs right back into gay rights caused aids. And he didn't really disagree with that. So then I was left with, you know. And, you know, Peter Vallone he just wanted it to get [inaudible] was, you know, and-- Well, I couldn't let that sit. Yeah, of course. I mean, I just couldn't. And I remember going to ACT UP and they were very angry with me. I mean, of course, they spoke out against it publicly, but they wanted him thrown out of office. And, uh, anyway, what happened in that case was, this is before the days when there are cameras in the legislative body, so there wasn't a camera. Or if there was, it wasn't -- the local public television station would have a camera crew there, maybe covering the council meetings. But I'm not sure that the tapes even exist like it would today be on YouTube, but nobody ever moved away from their seats to make a speech in the council. Even voting you voted from your seat. Even the speaker didn't move away from his seat except for to stand at a podium right next to his seat with the council. President ran the show. He was the parliamentarian or she was the parliamentarian. It happened to be a he. It was someone actually who I knew and who had been supportive of me when I ran for city council. And I reached out to his office and I said, look at the beginning of the meeting, I want you to recognize me because I'm going to come to the front of the council chamber and make a speech. And he did that and there were no microphones or anything. And there are ways to see speeches made by time to read when he's angry. But this was one of those speeches about what a terrible thing it was to go after a community that and this is, you know, 1992, like people were still dying. There was no cure, very few treatments. And it really, you know, you know, I think I said it, you know, how dare you kick people when they're already down? Anyway. I was angry and I made a very angry, impassioned speech about it. And, you know, actually the same something which happened to everyone like. Applauded. You know. And he never said that again. Yeah. Somehow the I guess the speaker of the council, they just found out I was going to do something because ACT UP was always doing something and I was a member of ACT UP. So they had the council staff, many staff. It was going to fill up all the seats in the balcony so that there weren't enough seats for the public. But some ACT UP people still got in there and when I finished my speech and then they started throwing condoms. This was not my -- like I said, this is not part of my plan. And I remember there was one of the counselors, the Reverend Wendell Foster came up to me and he said, you know, like you make a great sermon and, you know, everybody likes it. They're moved by the issue. Just leave it like that. I was like, I agree, you know, and I'm going to be very happy. I won't be shy to tell you, other occasions like that don't make Tom mad moments in legislative bodies. [break in audio] MF: We are back. We just had some technical difficulties with our video camera and Senator Duane had just finished telling us about Councilperson William's homophobic comments about HIV, to which he responded powerfully. And we're in the middle of a conversation about what he's most known for as a councilperson in New York City. So I'll turn it back over to you. TD: Well, the battle continued to stop the you know, reconfiguring, reforming the Division of AIDS Services, you know, and one of the things that happened was by-- Well, every year in the budget, everybody in the council would fight to stop the mayor's cuts to the Division of AIDS Services. So that was very important and they were very sensitive to that. And that was very you know, that's no substitute for a seat at the table kind of thing. So not just because of being gay, but the HIV was very powerful for making that be a reality that everyone then cared a little bit. I mean, many of them did care about the Division of AIDS Services, but they cared maybe just a little bit more now that they understood the stakes are so high that, you know, there was a possibility of under, you know. You know reforming it they would possibility of its being eliminated and I think it was 1997. I was able to -- I had written a law at some point that put the Division of AIDS Services, which was a sub agency of our human resources agency. To put this Division of AIDS Services in law two enshrined in law and two have very specific elements to it, timeframes for when someone could get services. At the time, Mayor Giuliani was making people who got public benefits or entitlements. They had to go to this place for a health check up, in this place for see if they were employable. So they had to go to all these different places before they could get help, you know, even food stamps, but any kind of public benefit. And so people with AIDS had to do all of those things, too. So this made it so they didn't have to go to all these places. Now I'm trying to remember the thing that he's made, he was something reviewed for that employment review, something which he, of course, contracted out to private people who were not sensitive to people who were having difficulty surviving at all. You know, this is true. It's a whole history that people who were women who needed public benefits. They were required to work for it. Which. Just despicable and something that actually was able to make a little bit better when I was in the Senate. But they had to fulfill a work requirement. And basically, as you say, it made it really hard for them to go to school and to, you know, to get ahead. It was just grotesquely unfair and it's punitive anyway. You know, an advisory committee. And, you know, if you are entitled to Medicare or Medicaid, which everybody was because they were generally poor. All of that happened in one place. You know, find a place to live, find a place to get health care. And it had to all be done within a certain time period. And the places that they were set to live had to be in good shape. And then also clients were given a stipend of $200 extra a month, of which the thought was $100 of it was for food because HIV/AIDS was called wasting disease. It was very hard for people to keep any weight on because they had gastrointestinal issues that came along with it and other things. So an extra dose for food. And then the other $100 was to buy tokens. I think this was pre-Metro cards. So tokens to take the subway to doctor's appointments or, you know, whatever. But it was just a little extra money to live on because their needs were, you know, great. And so anyway, Mayor Giuliani, at some point, I guess he finally gave up trying to, you know, get rid of the Division of AIDS Services. But I wanted to make sure no one could ever try to do it again. And I did get that bill passed, and it was passed by the council unanimously. And it's actually a model like every agency, like a child services. Everyone should have, you know, these benchmarks that they have to meet and, you know, the level of care that they had to me. The other thing was the ratio of clients to caseworker. We also put into the bill and so it was a, you know, collaboration between, you know, the, the activist community, my colleagues in government, but also the unions, because the people who provided these services in agencies were union workers at various levels, the caseworkers were one union, the support staff was another local in the same union. So anyway, everyone had to sign off on it. And we did do that and it passed unanimously, which meant that even if Mayor Giuliani had vetoed it, we would have just overridden his veto. So he didn't even bother. So that was a very important victory. And the agency's still there today. I mean, it's been changed in certain ways, and I don't follow it, you know, precisely. Maybe I just, you know, I'm a control freak, so I have to let things go, you know, even with the way things are, but not that anything was wrong with it or anything. But there could be and I would be upset. But anyway, another thing that I was able to do and Christine Quinn and people from ACT UP were very helpful with this. There was a time in the nineties, probably '92, '93, when there was a tremendous number of people from Haiti who were trying to get to the United States. And, you know, the rule for Cubans is if they touch, you know, land, they're allowed to stay here. But no, that didn't go for Haitians. So, Haitians who came and however they were detained, you know, had to go through a process to be allowed to stay here or in which I don't know what percentage were allowed to. It was a lot of people I know, but the people with HIV were sent to Guantanamo Bay. And of course, women have families, too. So there were all these Haitian people in Guantanamo Bay, because they had HIV. And so we went to Mayor Dinkins, first as a political person, I believe, and then we went to the person who headed up Human Resources Agency to ask if they would say to the federal government, We'll take them in New York and let them come to New York, get them out of Guantanamo Bay. We'll get them here. We'll put them up with benefits. And, you know, you know, people were -- many people like me were able to work at everything. And just because HIV did mean that you were, you know, going to be a burden on, you know, society. But anyway, we did it and they came to New York. So, you know, it was quiet because it wasn't something -- just better to get it done. We didn't have to write -- I don't know. I don't know whether, you know, there was any press around it or anything. But it wasn't-- it certainly wasn't a huge story. We just wanted to get them out of there to bring them to New York. So it was really just a very good thing, you know, for people all around. My chief of staff, Chris, other people in the office and people in ACT UP and, you know, the mayor's people and just, you know, the unions, everyone just came together and made it happen. And so, that was something I'm proud of. Am I turning red yet? The other thing that I'm probably very known for was a battle to provide domestic partner benefits, which would only go to city employees. You couldn't mandate that private employers would provide domestic partnership benefits. But previously there had been a bill where there was just a registry, and that entitles you to visit whoever it was in the hospital and I don't even think you got benefits, but it was just a place to sort of recognize your relationship in some way. But I introduced a bill that said whatever married people received in terms of public benefits or whatever responsibilities they had as a result of being married, domestic partners would be treated equally. Now, it just -- it was sweeping. It just said if it says marriage, it's domestic partnership also. So I had that bill and I actually got everyone, including the speaker, Peter Vallone, to sign off on it. And Mayor Giuliani got wind of it, and he substituted a bill where he had his staff go through the entire -- all of New York City laws and all of the administrative regulations. And so what he did was anywhere it said married, he put in domestic partner. And the problem with that is any time anything new happened, you would have to make sure that they remember to put domestic partner in, whereas mine was just it was presumed. But anyway, he put his bill in and that's the one that we passed. So I'm not quite sure what the politics of that was. My bill is better so but anyway, it was sweeping domestic partnership for city, and they said all the benefits that married people got now were provided to domestic partners. And the thing that people -- and I had to explain to my colleagues, in some cases to the public, you know, for instance, health benefits. Health benefits aren't like a reward you get for being married. Health benefits are something that's part of your compensation. It's so people who had domestic partners and didn't have spouses were being discriminated against because they weren't getting the same benefits and they weren't able to bring their loved one, or family onto their benefits and pay for it the exact same way that married couples do. So it wasn't without its complications because, of course, you know, any compensation it's complicated [inaudible] IRS or state and city tax people. But, you know, there are certain tax advantages to being married and what compensation and how much money you're making. You know, it's factoring, you know how much money you make, and with tax free, with domestic partners, it was more complicated than that. And so, as I recall, I think we made it. Maybe it was, I hope what happened was that, whatever that penalty was that people would have to pay because they had someone on their health care plan would be absorbed by the city. I'm pretty sure we did put that in as well with whatever maybe even Mayor Giuliani put it in. I can't remember it. I'm sorry that I have to go back and research, but it was a good bill because there were people that tried -- they just wanted to expand a little bit, the registry thing. And I was like, No, no. Like everything, everything that we'd already gotten a little bit. We'd already got the registry so you could visit someone dying in the hospital, which is great, but it's not. It's not everything by anything, you know. So, it was very helpful. And even though Brushy for rent regulated tenants was in existence, it was helpful for people who lived together in any kind of housing, you know, co-ops and condos or, you know, anything. So I was very happy about that. And again, it didn't mandate the gender of the person. Heterosexuals could be domestic partners. In fact, many, many, many heterosexuals signed up to be domestic partners. So it was a non-discriminatory domestic versus bill. And so there was that one and the Division of AIDS Services those would the kind of two big sweeping things I guess that I would be maybe known best for. But, you know, I also was a big champion of communities being able to create their own land use and zoning plans. So there was in the new city charter which made 51 city councilman was there something in there that said that a community board could bring forward their own land use and zoning plan. They had to go through, you know, reviews and hearings and everything for the plan. And then the City Planning Commission would have to decide whether or not to accept it. Because in the past, all zoning, land use and zoning changes sweeping or tiny were only done by the City Planning Commission. So this wasn't at the grassroots get involved in it also and I had helped author this thing called the Chelsea Plan and that was-- it was the first one written. It wasn't the first one passed, but it was the first one written. But I was very pleased when that passed the city council and I had to make some compromises on it which, you know. It's not that I won't answer them, but it's not entirely relevant to this. But there was a give and take on it. Let's just say that. if something was going to be [inaudible] and there had to be areas that had to be [inaudible]. So that was the battle. But I also -- there weren't any programs to create housing, affordable housing for very low income people. And so there was something in this that if there should ever be such a program that that kind of housing would be built on city owned land, which, regrettably, after I left office, the community. One of the things it did was, all of the these buildings in Flatiron that were used as garages or that were lots used for parking. The owners of those buildings could build residential housing on those sites. So there were lots of empty lots in the in Flatiron between let's say Sixth and Seventh Avenues in the in the high teens and the twenties. So, it was high income housing that was built there unless you know someone took the public benefit. But most of them didn't take a tax break from the city or anything. So now there are all these sort of more well-heeled people in the first sight that came up was in that area where they could build, where the city -- was the promise was that they would build low income housing and people in the neighborhood did something incredibly dishonest of these new people who moved into those nice places that were only living there because the zoning had been changed and the residential buildings went up there. And they had, you know, thousands of people sign a petition that says, you know, do you want a park? Like there was no description of what the park -- you know, what it was. So, of course, who doesn't want a park? But it was on the site where this housing should be built in. It was terrible. Just terrible because, yeah, we always need more open space, more green space, but they said, Oh, it's such a long walk to parks. Well, this is on, uh, 20th Street. And just three blocks south is the beginning of Union Square, and three blocks north is Madison Square Park. And then there's two huge parks on the west side now, like, you know, could we build some new housing here? And by the way, Chelsea was the kind of neighbor that would want that in Hell's Kitchen also. So it was I don't know, I guess there were, you know, concessions made where they were going to build housing for low income people elsewhere. But it was like they just don't want been living here, you know, and I'm not going to torch the park or anything, but I try not to go down that block because it just makes me mad because it was -- I made a good deal, you know, it was a it was a very good pact. And the Chelsea Planning Committee had been, it was a combination of, like, small business owners and people who cared deeply about preservation because we expanded the Chelsea historic district and housing activists and just, you know, average citizens in Chelsea that all wanted to sort of preserve the character of the neighborhood. And everybody got everything they wanted except for the people who were fighting for low income housing, really, more or less my team, are the ones that got blocked out. And when I talked earlier about Jane Wood's Way, Jane Wood was like, I'm sorry, Jane, because you stuck with the coalition and we got the plan through and we didn't get this affordable housing. And that was really, really it was really important. Anyway. The people, they were so weird. They're like, well, there are all these other sites where you get of affordable housing. And yes, there were a couple of city-owned sites that the city was going to eventually renovate that were kind of eyesores, that some of them had people living in them and they weren't in great condition, but they were going to -- in fact, they are now -- make them, you know, make the buildings better or. And the families that leave will, you know, be able to go back in. But they also had this is building at the corner of Seventh Avenue and 14th Street called the Vermeer, and they had that as like an affordable housing site. And there are lots of other places. This was just like a huge example because this gigantic building and I was like, I don't -- that is not affordable housing. It was an eviction co-op. We used to have non-eviction co-ops where you couldn't get rid of the tenants if they didn't want to buy when the building was converted to a co-op. This was not one of those buildings you either bought or you were thrown out. So this was not affordable housing. You couldn't -- these places were going for hundreds of thousands of dollars, these apartments. This is just one example, but there are other buildings like that and I'm like, This map is a lie. Also, not only is it do you want a park a lot, you know, so too is this map. And then when they came to me, I bet you think we're just hideous gentrifiers. And you know what the truth is? I did lie. I said, Now, why should I think that, I'm open? I wasn't. I wasn't. So, yes. But I didn't want to not meet with them. And I didn't. But I didn't have an open mind. I was angry with them, you know. But I still met with them and I tried. And I didn't try that hard. And I had a staff member who that was his area that he -- his responsibility was to... That part of the district was one that he served on behalf of my office. And, you know, he felt the way I did. He didn't bother hiding, he didn't bother to try, you know, make believe that these people were, you know. That there was something terribly wrong with these people, from my point of view, I certainly felt there was something terribly wrong with me, but I was like, You would not be living here but for this planet. This is like the only concession we got for this, because other places we had to accept bigger buildings, you know, but in order to get, you know, maintain more low-rise areas in Chelsea and also to expand the historic district. So, you know, the trade off in those days was that you had to give some other places where you could build larger buildings, of which one is, say, 23rd Street, where you can build taller buildings, anyway. I don't know. So, but I did love getting the Chelsea plan passed, and I did it by bringing all of the members of not all that it, but several members of the Lanier Studio City Council gave them a tour of Chelsea, where it's so important to us, you know, to be able to see the sky and have light and air, etc. And also a few members of the New York City Planning Commission, including the city planning commissioner, who was familiar with the area. But he's the person with whom I actually had to negotiate so that it would be acceptable to the City Planning Commission and then get passed by them and then go on to the city council and get passed. So and then other communities have done that since then. So it's kind of a missionary feel, missionary to help people to come out and missionary people to, you know, to create their own land use and zoning plans. Oh. I'm trying to think if there's -- I mean, I could list, you know, a whole number of things that I did that were, you know, really very good things, just not very high profile. But let me say I also did something. There were a few things that I started. We used to cut out -- this is me with scissors -- cut out newspaper articles if I was in it, and we kept them in scrapbooks, and we also kept every letter that we wrote about anything, because a lot of them could be, you know, reused in a way. You know, if we were writing, I'm ready to express my extreme dismay with something or I'm writing to, you know, support in the strongest possible manner. But so there was a certain, you know, style that you could copy. So, on many different topics, so the people in the office didn't always have to be reinventing the wheel when they wrote letters on my behalf. And I also invented sign on letters where I would write a letter about some issue and I would get all of the other elected officials that represented whatever area or building or whatever institution that was to sign on to it. So, they would be more powerful that all of our names are on it. And that was kind of in its time doing maybe, but I didn't invent it, but I certainly used it an awful lot. And sometimes funny things happen, sometimes a staff member in another office would like try to rewrite it and someone else would rewrite it. And then it would be incomprehensible after everybody made their edits and I would just rewrite it. They couldn't -- that was it. Like you sign it that the way is now, or not it all. So anyway. And the other thing I did was elected officials go to these community boards, which I've talked about. Over 50 members from neighborhoods that make advisory just, you know, resolutions to be sent to elected officials and to the city government, sometimes even to state. And I would -- and what would happen is a good staff member who you would send to that community board, would they say, and the council member did this, the council member did that. But I always said Councilmember capital 'C', [inaudible] capital 'M', I didn't say councilman, councilwoman, council member because I -- to the best of my ability, I tried to make things gender neutral. Sometimes it's impossible, you know, like, if you're a fellow at a university like, what's the, you know. But, you know, firefighter, police officer, Medicare, you know, there's many -- most things you can make gender neutral. Anyway, instead of having the staffers to say that the councilmember was this. One of the things that we did since the last time here, since last month when you had your last meeting, I would have everyone write a report on like what they had done in the area that they covered for me or the issues that they specialized in. And it served two purposes. Well, of course, everyone in the office then could see what everyone else was doing in a formal way, and also, if they needed to use something like that in the area, they had it. But also we would hand it out to everybody in the community board. There was eventually, you know, people who were like, I don't want to do paper. I would have it on my website, so they didn't have to. But you know, people still like paper those days and they were planting two trees for everyone they cut down, I'm sure. I hope so. I promise. So all the wonderful and amazing things I have done in there would be in this report. And then, you know, the staff member, you know, I'd ask them maybe to just go into more detail on one or two things, so they didn't have to, you know, just be saying. And I would do the same thing because I would take -- and then there'd be questions and answers, but it saves a lot of time and people could read it at their leisure, and people loved it. And then all the other officials that are doing it and I'm not sure that the staff members of these other elected officials are so fond of this this sitting but that was the other thing you know. I just, I always felt it was so important to be really very respectful and really, you know, try to be nonhierarchical to the best of my ability with staff members of an agency, with the city or government or who works for another elected official. And I do know that there was something special that accrued to me because I had a title and, you know, which people used in different ways. But I used it mostly, I think as a megaphone that people sort of had to listen to what I had to say. So there was that. But, you know, it's a problem with sexual harassment. Like people, it could be that I don't know the power I have over someone, you know, and they don't know if they could say no or that, you know, I'm being inappropriate. So, but I mean, I tried never to do that either. And I don't know whether I always said this even when I was in the council, but I felt very strongly that. And now even when I teach, I see, you know, if I say something that's insensitive or that you seem, you know, that you don't like what I said, I want you to please tell me because I want to be able to either apologize or say I could have said a better way or say, you know, this is how I made it. But, you know, I want to be able to address it and not just leave it there. And I, I feel strongly -- I want people to be able to do that. And one of the reasons I love being on the city council is we had lots and lots of public hearings on the city council. And I loved learning new things. And, you know, I know a lot about a few things and a little about a lot of things but I know not very much at all about a lot of things. And I would learn things in a [inaudible] they worked in the constituent issues where if they were focused on an issue, I would say go for it because I could be the mouthpiece for it. But it made me smarter too. I learned something new and it was to become very important later on in my senate district, a power plant was being repaired. Like I really didn't know that much about how power plants were being retooled, which, you know, probably are again now. But I learned, you know, I could tell you all of that particulate matter and the percentages and it like beyond all of that. And I will tell you, -- it's when I was in the Senate. But I will tell you anyway. So the law puts aside money for a community to argue with the utility to make a fair playing field, which of course it's not. But still, there's money to fight back against a power company, a utility company. And there was a ConEd plant, and I don't hate ConEd as much as everyone else in the -- the city's old. All the infrastructures old, things happened. But, you know, it's not -- it's their fault, but it's not like, you know, deliberately making things fall apart, buy anyway. But I appreciated people's anger at it. But I also appreciated the other side that, you know, we don't know what's happening with every pipe and everything in the city anyway. We couldn't get one of the like the environmental organizations to help us because many of them were attorneys who worked for law firms, which in this case, ConEd hired all of those law firms to be to work for them. So there was a conflict and they couldn't do it. And I remember before I started yelling at someone, I said, this is like so bogus, like you're on the board of the, you know, the Natural Resources Defense Fund, and you can't help us. I mean, come on. Like, don't you see what's happening here? And we did finally find, you know, a not-for-profit legal group that did help us. But, you know, we were, like, hanging out there because they couldn't these other groups couldn't take positions on things because they were compromised. Very smart of ConEd, you know, when many times an issue or the thing no matter what, they'll hire like all of the good lobbying organizations and in a way co-op the -- not co-op but, you know, it's there's usually a power imbalance in these kinds of situations. And even well-intentioned people who wanted to do good things for the environment, they have now put themselves in a position where they can't do anything. So that was a lesson I learned. And that was when -- it could have happened when I was in the council, it just didn't. I just happen to have a power plant that really impacted my Senate district. But there are other things. You know, there was a, you know, real estate wasn't doing that well in the early nineties. And there's this city owned building. It had been a library and the city wanted to sell it. And the local community board-- and I supported this wholeheartedly because it had to go through city government, set aside for some kind of social services group. So, I mean, you could be the coalition for the homeless. It really could have been -- it turned out to be God's Love We Deliver, which is fine. And so they've been there ever since. They don't just -- God's Love We Deliver is a food delivery program for people with AIDS, that was much needed. And, you know, in the days of HIV and AIDS where there is -- when it was wasting disease. And now they provide meals for other people as well that have, you know, difficult health issues, cancer or something. So anyway, they're a good group and they took it. And I really, you know, like that. That community board that I represented the area where they were the community board did this and said something. So I mean, not every neighborhood would do that because, you know, who knows who would want to move in there. But it turned out to be some of the people that wouldn't reject you, but even if it was, it would have been okay with this community board. So there were those kinds of things. You know, sometimes it would be, you know, a facility for a -- not a facility that's a terrible word. There was-- oh well, on the same block. I was very supportive of a place called Safe Space, which is on 46th Street. At the time, Port Authority was still a place where young people lived ; runaways, throwaways. And John Wright, who is part of this organization, came forward with a proposal where a church that wasn't using one of their buildings was willing to give it to this organization Safe Space so that kids could drop in there during the day. It was not zoned so they could stay overnight, but they could go there during the day and shower and get a meal. And there were, you know, social services, if, you know, to try to help these kids because they did whatever they could to survive and find some place to spend the night, you know, and they used to call the Port Authority the port. It's not really the same there. Kids aren't there in the same numbers that they were then. But I was very happy to support their putting Safe Space in. And then there was another building I supported where, you know, it was sort of like a "no must, no fuss" place for people with AIDS where, you know, they would bring meals in to people. It was not like the most luxurious place, but it was certainly way better than a SRO, which is single room occupancy which oftentimes, was just dreadful. I mean, sometimes they were okay, but mostly they weren't. So this was a nice place and I supported that being put there. So I like being able to help bring social services into neighborhoods and to work with them. Whether they were willing to accept it off the bat or were they a little bit reticent or, you know, and I was generally very supportive of them. And a couple of times they were for whatever reason, there was a reason that I couldn't support it and I wanted something different. But mostly I was helpful in helping organizations get their projects through if they were helping people with problems, basically. MF: Well, I apologize, but we're going to have to stop because our video camera has -- we've taken up all of storage space. TD: This is what happens with my relationships, too. They get tired of me. [laughs] MF: But we're not tired of the you we just ran out of the ability to save the interview. TD: Well. MF: So what I'm going to I'm going to just end on the audio and then what we'll do is we'll transcribe the audio and then we'll have the video as our backup, which has a majority of what we talked about. I think we have room for another interview or two because we haven't really gotten to the Senate yet. And I'm hoping you'd be willing to do another interview. TD: Yes, when, it's my reunion? Was it May or June? I don't know what your deadline is or-- you know. MF: No we have no -- we're ongoing, so yeah. TD: Oh so definitely around that I'll try to make my way a little bit earlier and we can do it then. But also I think now I don't have to make that vlog anymore. It's all here my whole life. [laughs]. So, you know, that as told to book is totally unnecessary now. I don't need the ghostwriter anymore because I used to that book that I'm never going to write with all your -- should I name names? [laughs] Anyway, when you come here, next time I'll have a plan. If you bring your son too we'll make sure it's something that, you know, he would enjoy, too, because, you know, he's my demography. MF: He would love to come. I mean, he's been asking us all kinds -- what did you do? Where did you eat? Where do you go? You know? So he would love that. TD: And there's, you know, lots of on Broadway off-Broadway stuff. We'll do something . MF: That would be wonderful. We would love that. Okay. So I'm going to be in touch with you and Bruce to set up something. And I just want to say thank you so much. This was wonderful today. TD: Well, thank you. It's been great. Like, it's been great. I'm very glad we're doing it. And even though it's very hard to talk about myself. Like I felt a little hung over when I got home last night, you know, spending so much time to talk about my stuff, I was like, ugh. And the person I'm dating is a flight attendant, so I couldn't really discuss it with him. And so I was. Anyway, it's just weird to, you know, speak at great length about how wonderful I am. But I'll have to put in some things when I wasn't so wonderful. I'll have to definitely find some of those things. Things that I -- well, right when I stop teaching one class in a public high school when I was in office. Right towards the end instead of asking about sex and drugs, which they were always asking about, this question ; Was there ever a bill that you regretted, you know, that you voted for? And I was stunned by the question. Like nobody -- kids ask the greatest questions, like even reporters when they'd asked me about my HIV disclosure, they never asked as good questions as the kids did on World AIDS Day when they would ask me questions. For instance, when did you find out you had HIV? 1988. But, they didn't ask, how long have you had HIV? And the kids knew to ask that, you know, how long do you think you had been infected with HIV and, you know, definitely before 1985, but I think before 1982. Well, 1983 is when they started to say to use condoms, and it's all use from then on. So it was probably before 1983. Anyway. But kids knew how to ask, you know, better questions. So was ever -- like who asked that? It's a great question. And I was like, whoa. And I really, really, really had to think about it. And I finally was like, no, but I did change my mind about a couple of things, you know, and the truth is, is in those cases, I don't know which was the right position, you know. And many of them, not many, there weren't that many -- guns. I changed my position on guns and crossbows, because there was a bill that came up that said that like 15-year-olds could hunt with crossbows, they could get a license to do that. And I would vote against -- well actually I love animals, you know. And maybe the third time I did, a Republican came over and he said, [inaudible]. And I said, Why? He said, Because they're doing it anyway, and in this way, they have to take a class. And I thought to myself, they are doing it anyway. And this way they do have to take a class. So now they learn you don't injure the animal. That's the worse thing. Kill it. You know what I mean? But it was, Are we encouraging people to do it? I don't know. But they were doing it anyway. So at least now, if they hadn't taken the course, they would get in trouble for that. So anyway, so it was a couple of bills like that, you know, and sometimes gambling is a tough one, also. You know, I hate gambling. I don't have that addiction because it's not here. And actually slot machines, that sort of thing, you know, that it'll be like you're going to spend $30, you know, win or lose, you know. But if it was 21 or poker, like, I would be one of those people that would see the sun because, you know, I have that ADHD. It's because it's uneven focus. That's what it really is. It's so, you know, and sometimes even when I'm looking at stuff on the computer, like I can't, like it's 2 hours later so. [laughs] No, that's for me. You know, Saratoga is right by Albany, and they have pon -- the trotters. And, you know, the riders and all this. So anyway, all the Senate Democrats, we all went to the track and I had never been to the track before. And on the way there, there are a couple of senators who knew a lot about gambling and knew a lot about horse racing. And they showed me there's this --I haven't looked at it since it's been maybe 15 years now. I only looked at it once. But they had little things at the top that tell you like where the horse has won, or how long it's been in, who the jockey is. Like, I can't remember all the little pieces of information that they tell you. So it's time to start betting, and I bet and I win, and then I win, and then I win, and then I place and then I'm scared that the person isn't going to get to our table in time to take my bet. And then, you know, after nine races or something, well, time to go. And I didn't want to leave. And as I walked in, I was like, I must never come here again, because I, you know, I picked that, you know, of course, the first time you do anything, you know, I don't know what it's the second time, but because it was my first time, you know, the universe made it so that I would be a winner. But because it had, you know, there was focus involved. Well, this is better cold, but it has a couple of unnatural things in it. But it's delicious. Like three calories. MF: Oh, yeah, we love it. We have it at our house. TD: Oh, you do. You do. MF: Oh, yeah, Sparkling Ice is delicious. And then we will take this on the ride home now, and guzzle it with glee. TD: It's incred -- I mean, who knows? Well, one time there was a frozen yogurt. They said a pint was 90 calories. Well, as it turned out, that actually was not true about this particular -- they went out of business like. And I think they did less than the amount of fruit juice in it at some point. I didn't really notice but I've noticed people commented on it. It's still tastes lemony to me. MF: Well, I'm going to I'm going to stop the interview now. TD: Oh, me too. I'm talking about Sparkling Ice. MF: We're talking about Sparkling Ice, people in the future are going to want to know what you and I both enjoy drinking. TD: I don't mean for it to be a commercial and I am sorry if I -- that I badmouth it because I really don't know the facts, but it is delicious. MF: I'll just say thank you again. TD: Thank you. Thank you. MF: I can't wait for the next interview. TD: Yeah, I'm looking forward to it too. Thanks. Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile= Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:28:56 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Thomas Duane, April 2, 2022 (Part 3) Description An account of the resource Thomas Duane describes his time in the New York City Council, advocating for the LGBTQ+ community, fighting for the Division of AIDS Services (DAS), and working to ensure habitable living conditions for New Yorkers. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LGBT-31 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-02 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright remains with the interview subject and their heirs. https://lgbt.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/9da88d4fce60ea80a28b5c88e77a6418.png e1a24fa045d97e1a511b28538f2e0ac1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Stories of Lehigh Valley LGBTQ+ Community Members (2022 - ) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Mary Foltz Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Thomas Duane OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LGBT-22.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 February 17, 2022 Thomas Duane, February 17, 2022 (Part 1) LGBT-22 1:52:55 LVLGBT-2022 Stories of Lehigh Valley LGBTQ+ Community Members (2022 - ) Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository Support for the collection of this interview was provided by the American Council of Learned Societies (ACLS). trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Thomas Duane Mary Foltz video/mp4 DuaneThomas_20220217_video_trimmed.mp4 1.0:|27(15)|46(10)|79(14)|106(3)|123(2)|140(5)|159(5)|176(2)|197(2)|218(17)|239(7)|262(5)|279(15)|292(13)|311(10)|330(11)|351(14)|372(12)|391(14)|416(7)|439(16)|460(4)|489(13)|506(5)|527(4)|546(11)|565(10)|586(11)|611(7)|630(16)|651(8)|670(9)|691(10)|710(7)|727(13)|752(13)|773(16)|790(14)|811(16)|834(8)|859(10)|876(3)|891(15)|908(16)|933(4)|956(14)|971(3)|988(9)|1003(14)|1022(10)|1043(4)|1064(9)|1087(12)|1104(9)|1119(6)|1142(14)|1165(7)|1190(11)|1207(11)|1232(10)|1251(12)|1272(15)|1295(7)|1318(15)|1335(6)|1352(13)|1369(16)|1388(2)|1405(11)|1428(5)|1449(8)|1462(4)|1485(12)|1500(9)|1521(3)|1540(6)|1557(13)|1580(10)|1603(7)|1626(7)|1645(18)|1666(10)|1685(16)|1708(13)|1727(11)|1746(13)|1769(9)|1790(5)|1807(9)|1824(8)|1841(14)|1860(4)|1875(10)|1896(13)|1921(16)|1940(14)|1969(3)|1990(3)|2011(9)|2028(10)|2055(5)|2074(8)|2093(2)|2114(9)|2133(5)|2154(12)|2177(13)|2208(11)|2225(14)|2256(16)|2279(16)|2306(12)|2325(12) 0 https://youtu.be/zRHi6rmXYA0 YouTube video English 0 Interview Introductions MARY FOLTZ: My name is Mary Foltz, and I’m here with Senator Thomas K. Duane to talk about his life and experiences in the Lehigh Valley and beyond -- including New York, importantly -- as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. This year our project has funding from ACLS and we are meeting today at the Senator’s office in Manhattan on February 17th, 2022. So, thank you so much for your willingness to speak to me today.&#13 ; &#13 ; THOMAS DUANE: It’s a pleasure and I’m glad that -- I think I’m the more difficult person to tie down but I’m glad we were all able to get tied down together. I’m very happy to be here and talk. 0 221 Early Years of Life / Catholic School Days TD: I was actually born in a hospital in Chelsea, a French hospital. It’s now affordable housing, so I’m happy about that. But it was a hospital, and it had the maternity wing. I only say that because when I ran for office, I could truthfully say I was born in Chelsea. But my parents at the time lived in Queens, in an apartment that my aunt had formerly lived in. But I was the cause of them moving to Flushing. 0 1261 High School / Early Explorations with Sexuality TD: So, I went to an all-gay high school -- no, it was an all-boys high school. Actually, my freshman year, there was a student, Richard Sullivan, who I think he was more sophisticated and more worldly than I was. I think he had a girlfriend, like a real girlfriend, in his freshman year. But he knew there was something different about me, and I knew there was something different about me. 0 1638 College Prospects / Early Experiences with Politics TD: I remember one of the reasons I came home from having had left home when I was an adolescent was that I was like, “If I can just make it to going away to college, then I’ll get out of here, and so I better go back so I can leave.” And I applied to a bunch of different schools. Some, I think, were reaches. One, I applied to Dartmouth. I didn’t go up to the school to have an interview but I was interviewed by the alumni in an office building in Midtown Manhattan and I got on the elevator to go to the interview and the elevator started to go, and it dropped 30 floors right before the interview. 0 2012 Attending Lehigh University TD: Anyway. So, I knew that if I started to smoke cigarettes, I would be smoking cigarettes. If I started to drink, I would drink. If I started to smoke pot, I would smoke pot. And if I started to have sex, I would have sex. And 17, that’s when the dam broke. And I don’t think this is the reason I went to Lehigh, but Lehigh was not known as a druggie school. It wasn’t. It was not, not a druggie school, let’s just say that. But it was more well-known for its consumption of alcohol. It was a big frat school. And I guess, honestly, I think I was trying to please my father by going there. 0 2518 Relationships at Lehigh TD: So, that was all wonderful. But at the age of 17, I came out sexually and politically, started to. Politically slowly, sexually pretty, in a way, slowly, also. But I’m actually a little bit bisexual, and I actually was out at one time as a bisexual in the Columbia Spectator, which is the Columbia University newspaper because I went to a pro-bi rally and so, they said, “Openly bisexual councilmember.” And I think bisexuals have it really hard. So, I always identified gay, but I don’t have a perfect Kinsey score. And I knew I would end up with a man, but I have to be -- anyway. So, I was sleeping with men and women then. 0 2964 Joining Social Justice Organizations / Getting Politically Educated&#13 ; TD: So, I started to go to Gay Activist Alliance meetings in New York City. I would take the bus into the city. I both went for the politics and to meet boys, truth be told. There’s nothing wrong with combining that. I think that’s one of the reasons ACT UP was so very successful. And I met these two, Rick and Ron, I think, and they were librarians and they had an organization they founded called Le-Hi-Ho, which is both a great name and an unfortunate name, all at the same time. 0 3279 Coming Out to Parents / Being Out at Lehigh TD: &#13 ; Oh, I told my parents I was gay -- oh, I can’t remember now, was it freshman or sophomore year? I will remember this but can’t remember now. I think it was after my sophomore year. And they were very upset about it. And actually, my younger brother also said he was gay, but I was the older, I was probably the bad influence on him or something. The brother a year older than me at one time thought he wanted to be a Maryknoll missionary. 0 3678 Staring an LGBTQIA+ Group at Lehigh TD: As I recall, I think Phil might have been, or he was threatened one time, pretty much. We got threatening phone calls. I wrote letters to the Brown and White, “How dare you presume that everyone is heterosexual,” these lines that I picked up from all these political books that I had read. And I asked to create, I think it was Lehigh Homophile. Homophile, what kind of word is that? I guess it was just a word that I just -- actually, Le-Hi-Ho, which was Ron and Rick’s group, it’s both a great name and kind of a funny name, homophile is just not a great name at all. What are we, in Greece? They wouldn’t even say it there. I don’t even know where it came from. 0 4608 Organizing at a Young Age TD: Anyway, you know what? In my life, now, people have said to me, “How do you organize?” Because I was, from a very early age, organizing. And I said, “Well, you just start doing stuff and you try to get others to do it with you. That’s basically how it’s done.” In addition to joining every club in my high school, I was thinking back on this, I also was very active in my parish team clubs, not because I was so into the parish, but it was just another way to not be home and my brother, John, of course, was the head of it but I was the program director, so I was in charge of putting together dances. And I did things like that. 0 4837 Graduating from Lehigh / Returning to Be a Speaker TD: But I wanted to leave. And so, I really tried. The first summer, I didn’t want to go home and I wanted to be with my then-boyfriend for that first year so I took classes. And then, after my sophomore year I took classes that summer, also. And I was thinking about the various jobs. I worked at a luncheon in New York when I was 17, which I actually loved. I have to be around people when I work. &#13 ; &#13 ; So, I took six courses or something. I tried to take additional courses so I could get out sooner. I took courses, summer courses. And I just needed to take two more classes. It took me two years, but I did. So, I left at the time of the students in the class of ’75 were graduating, but I’m actually class of ’76, and I got my degree in 1977, and my parents were very happy I got that. 0 5300 Leaving for New York / Political Beginnings TD: I had to leave Lehigh. I needed to get out. And I came to New York. But I continued on a path of working during the day and doing community and LGBT. I think it was miracle we started to say lesbian and gay, which was a step up from saying gay and lesbian, but anyway. I continued being active in the queer community and non-queer community and my life went on. &#13 ; &#13 ; There’s something that happened a little while ago and I think it started with when I was telling you about acting gayer than -- maybe I’m ashamed to say that I was acting gayer than I would normally act. I feel in a way that’s a terrible thing to say, because another thing that, from my childhood or my adolescence that I remember is to be very, very careful about how I walked. 0 5767 Choosing Battles TD: Because as a gay person -- and this was big when I was in elected office -- you have to choose your battles because I was always the only one. If there’s two queers, well, then they can take turns and then other people start to do it. When you’re the only one, I would talk to everybody. When I talked with people, “We’re the only people. We have to decide every day whether or not to come out.” And I mean that. 0 6056 Being Out Unapologetically&#13 ; TD: I do want to talk about all the rest but it’s amazing to me that at Lehigh now, that there would be an affirmative effort to get queer people into fraternities and sororities, like unbelievable to me. Even when they started having the lounge for the LGBTQ community, I can’t imagine the people were joining fraternities and sororities up until very recently, being open about who they were with their sexual orientation. 0 6277 Impact on LGBTQ+ Community at Lehigh University MF: I just want to say, listening to you talk about it, you were compelled at Lehigh, to be an out student, it felt like a calling to you. And I just wrote a brief history of LGBTQIA-plus activism on campus and I went through the Brown and White and I went through the yearbooks. &#13 ; &#13 ; To my mind from what I’ve been able to find, Rick Balmer, James Hopkinson were involved with that early Le-Hi-Ho, but what I’ve been able to find, you were the first out person on campus that was advocating for a public group, not a support group, public group for gay students at that time, at Lehigh. 0 6611 Closing Remarks TD: I think that’s great. I’m thrilled. Really, the world is changing, and I tell students, “You’ve got to hang on to what it is and build on it because it could slip away. It could slip away and don’t let that happen.” What I say about Lehigh, even though it wasn’t a real recognized group, “Never give up the franchise,” but I did give up the franchise. But if I could have, I would have, even if there was one member, just to keep it alive. Maybe there’s no need -- there is still an ACT UP, but there’s a lot of organizations that I’ve been a part of, Queers for Economic Justice is one. 0 MovingImage Thomas Duane recounts the early years of his life, his relationship with sexuality and time at Lehigh University, as well as his early interactions with activism and politics. MARY FOLTZ: My name is Mary Foltz, and I'm here with Senator Thomas K. Duane to talk about his life and experiences in the Lehigh Valley and beyond -- including New York, importantly -- as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. This year our project has funding from ACLS, and we are meeting today at the Senator's office in Manhattan on February 17th, 2022. So, thank you so much for your willingness to speak to me today. THOMAS DUANE: It's a pleasure, and I'm glad that -- I think I'm the more difficult person to tie down, but I'm glad we were all able to get tied down together. I'm very happy to be here and talk. MF: Me, too. Thank you so much. And just a few -- TD: Talk about me. Me, me, me, me. MF: That's what we're here to do. TD: Who doesn't want to talk about...? MF: To start, would it be possible for you just to state your full name? TD: Sure. Thomas K. Duane, D-U-A-N-E. The K stands for Keen. And I was born January 30th, 1955. My mother was born January 31st, 1925. And when she had me the woman in the next bed said, "Couldn't you have waited another day?" And she said, "Oh, no. I couldn't." But anyway, so I'm very much like my mother in many ways. So, I am 67 which I cannot believe. That I'm even alive is completely miraculous but I love Ariana Grande, and Taylor Swift. I don't act my -- in my head, I'm younger. But I'm on Medicare, I'm firmly ensconced in Medicare at the age of 67 now, which I am very much in favor of. Which, when I saw some people who supported a former president, they said, "What do you think about the government running Medicare?" And they said, "That's terrible. The government will mess up Medicare. That's an awful idea." Here I thought to myself, "Why don't they teach civics in school anymore?" Okay. MF: I want to hear more about that. But first, I just want to go back over consent. Before we started the interview, you signed a consent form. TD: Yes, absolutely. MF: I just want to confirm, do you consent to this interview today? TD: Yes. MF: Do you consent to having this interview transcribed and digitized, made publicly available online? TD: Yes. MF: And do you consent to our LGBTQ Archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats such as articles, websites, publications, et cetera? TD: Yes. I was going to make a joke, but I'll just say yes, absolutely. It would be my pleasure. MF: And I do want to remind you that after we transcribe the interview, you'll have 30 days after I deliver it to you electronically to review it. And you can identify things you want to delete, or you could withdraw the whole interview from the project, if you wanted to. TD: Let's hope we don't go down that road. [laughs] MF: We won't put it online until we get your final approval. TD: If I don't say a name and then I think, "Oh, I'm just going to go and use the name," maybe you could flash that name up? [laughter] Okay. MF: Well, I think we're ready to start. Since oral history is a life arc, I'm going to ask you if you'd be willing to tell me a little bit about the early years of your life. TD: I was actually born in a hospital in Chelsea, a French hospital. It's now affordable housing, so I'm happy about that. But it was a hospital, and it had the maternity wing. I only say that because when I ran for office, I could truthfully say I was born in Chelsea. But my parents at the time lived in Queens, in an apartment that my aunt had formerly lived in. But I was the cause of them moving to Flushing. I was raised a Roman Catholic. And for various reasons, I've had to say that I may not be the poster boy for Roman Catholicism, but I'm infused with it, let's say. Actually, one of the classes that I teach, I talk about whether religion belongs in politics and government and public policy. And everyone says, "No, no, no," I said, "So, no giving money to churches that have pantries? No programs run by religious institutions for formerly incarcerated people?" So, it's a very complicated issue. Anyway, and so I think my Roman Catholicism did, and continues to inform my worldview because I moved from masses being said in Latin. I have two older brothers, I had one younger brother who has passed away, who's also gay. He died of a brain tumor in his mid-thirties. So, we were four boys. My two older brothers were kind of perfect. Great grades, lots of friends, very good at athletics. And then, there was me. Maybe this is telling about my personality, my brother who's an Irish twin, he's a year-and-a-half older than I am, when he was moving from first to second grade, I was really only eligible to go to kindergarten, but I was born in January of 1955 and I did go to kindergarten in a public school -- Catholic schools didn't have kindergarten -- for a few days. But I demanded to go to first grade and somehow, I don't know how I convinced my parents to do this, but my local parish, which is St. Andrews, did not have any room, so I went to a neighboring parish called St. Michael's to their first grade. And it was incredibly traumatic. It was -- the nuns there -- I was in the first grade. I remember the uniforms we wore. But every day, there were children crying, and children being hit, and having their hands hit. It was just a nightmare. And fortunately, my local school had an opening so I went to St. Andrews. I don't know whether you can tell, I got all tense talking about that, like I remember that so clearly how sad it is for the kids that were stuck there. But I got out and I went to St. Andrew's where, not that no one ever got hit, but I think my parents made it clear that none of us were ever to be struck or anything. The classes were huge. There were 53 children in my class and there were three first grade classes. And I think it was ranked in smart, medium, not so, which is horrendous. But fortunately, I was at least in the smart class. Both my brothers were really high achievers, and I was above average, but I was not a rockstar. And I'm an ADHD, which will become clear as this interview goes on. [laughs] Of course, I didn't know that. I actually did know until I was in my forties, but it explained an awful lot about my life. I'll tell one story of something that happened. It was maybe the fifth grade, I believe. And we were supposed to do an art project over weekend of making a clown face and we were supposed to -- and I missed the instructions, I think -- it was supposed to be tiny little pieces of construction paper glued down so it was made a mosaic clown face. But mine, I tore big pieces of paper. And I do love contemporary and modern art, so maybe I was a little bit ahead of the rest of my class. That's what my clown was made of, big, torn pieces of construction paper. But I was called in front of the class, shown to everybody this is wrong and terrible. And then, this particular nun said in a voice that kids who went to Catholic school will recognize, in a very loud whisper, allegedly only so I would hear it, but such that the entire class heard it, she said, "You come from such a nice family, and none of us know what's wrong with you." And that has stuck with me. It's one of the things I have in my head. I had it in my head, even though I loved doing art and drawing and crayons and paint, after that, I didn't, until I was in a therapy group and the co-director was an art therapist. I guess I recounted this story and she said, "There's no such thing as doing art wrong." I was in my forties or my fifties. And so, then, I went to see her a few times, not because -- I mean, I love art therapy, but I was already in therapy, I had plenty of therapy my whole life -- but if I could sit there and make art while I talked with her, so I could speak with her. And so, it was, "Oh, no such thing as making art wrong." And of course, I kind of knew that because I love museums. And in fact, at Lehigh, they had a borrowing program where you could borrow paintings from the library, I guess? I don't know, I guess they were from the library, and you could hang them up in your dorm room. And I did. It was a Degas, I believe I had, in my freshman year. I guess I was a little non-binary as it came to my approach to art. Anyway. Of course, I also tried out to be an altar boy and you had to memorize everything in Latin and I failed the first time. I didn't make the cut. So, it took two tries for me to pass the altar boy test. Which is true of a lot of things. It takes me a while to get things, but once I get it, I've really got it, because I think I learn a little bit differently. Of course, it was kind of a disgrace that I didn't make it right away. And then they got rid of Latin anyway, so seriously. I'm not going to go through the whole thing of what altar boys would say in Latin. I could, but I'm not going to. But the place I'm going to is, just packed with children in Flushing, Catholic, Catholic, Catholic. Actually, the closest Catholic high school where I lived is a school called Holy Cross, where I ended up going. But I actually didn't want to go there. I wanted to go to Fordham Preparatory School, which was in the Bronx, which was a subway and two busses away, and my parents, they did not want me to go. It was a good school, and so, I got in, but they wouldn't let me go there. My home life, my family looked really good on the outside. We were one of our parish's first families, in a way. We were really well put-together when we went to mass on Sundays and other things. I mean, except for me. I probably wasn't in lockstep with everyone else. But anyway, my home life internally was not particularly happy. My parents had a very difficult marriage, and this is one of those things in therapy where I now have to get over talking about some of the things in my childhood is not telling secrets or telling on my family. So, they liked to drink, my parents. And they caused problems in our household. And my parents were also very controlling and I was very hard to control. I actually tried to run away when I was little, on more than one occasion. I actually did run away from home, if that's what it's called when I only stayed away for a few weeks, when I was maybe a junior in high school, I think. And I did finally come home, and I made amends to my parents because I realized how horrible it must have been for them, no matter what was going on at home, awful it must have been for them to not know where I was and what was happening to me. So, as an adult, I realized that. But my home life was not that happy. And the other thing is, my father was a coach of all things athletic. And the Catholic church was so virulently in the lives of families and children who went to Catholic school, that we had our own sports league, the Catholic Youth Organization leagues, and my father coached baseball and we all played -- my brothers and I -- every Saturday, sometimes Sundays, we'd play in season, baseball, basketball, football. It was like another day of school for me. I mean, sports, it's one of those things it took me a while to get good at it. I never really got really good at it, but I got okay at all of them. It just took me awhile, like with everything else to get good at it. But it was difficult. There wasn't much freedom and being in organized sports leagues. And I actually was not bad at all, but when my father was around, for some reason, I kind of know in retrospect what the reason was, but I would be really terrible at sports when he was there. It had to do with some shame stuff that was happening with me, which I'm sure was compounded by my, though I didn't know it, being gay and different than everyone else. So, I was pretty good when he wasn't around, when he was around, I was terrible. But it was sort of valuable that I learned how not to be afraid of the ball as a boy, and not to throw like a girl, and all these things. And I also learned to make sure that I walked in a way that was like the way the other boys walked, as well. And in elementary school, and in high school, it took me a couple of years, always, to get comfortable and to make friends. I really had to get the lay of the land first, before I could step out and be myself. I was just going to say, "shine," so I'll say shine. Did I shine? I don't know whether I shined. There were eight or nine classes of each class, so there'd be eight or nine freshman sophomore classes, and there was an honors class which both of my brothers had been in. And yes, you guessed it, I was not in the honors class. I was in the second honors class, such a disgrace. But I manipulated my way around that one, too, because I decided to take Latin for four years. And so, that separated me from my class in some ways. And so, I took some classes with the boys in the honors class. I'm pretty good at -- I should say, how do you think I got elected? That's how I got elected, doing things like that. But I actually strongly believe that my grades improved when I was with the more higher achieving, more expected to be high-achieving students. And so, I strongly believe that it's important that there be a diversity of students in every way, including how quickly they pick things up. The thing is, Catholic school, now that I think about probably impacted my experience at Lehigh and how I learn is that for instance, the clown story, remaking the art, if the nun -- I'm pretty sure her name was Sister Mary-Margaret, God rest her soul, or Sister Margaret-Mary. I can't remember which. But anyway, she may have given the instructions of the tearing of little paper, but I may not have gotten it. And I didn't know that you could ask to have an assignment, or directions repeated. But even if I did, in Catholic school, you couldn't ask anyway. But often, I would come into class having had done the wrong pages in the math book because I didn't always catch the assignment. I broke my leg in the fourth grade -- I'm telling too much about my life story, you'll never get out of here. This interview is going to go on forever. Anyway, I broke my leg in the fourth grade, and I had a near public elementary school teacher come to my house every day for an hour, and when I went back to school, I had finished all the books of that grade within that one fall month. It was probably October, maybe September or something, because I broke my leg at the end of the summer, early fall. So, I was already done with everything. So, the fourth grade was a breeze because I'd already done everything. But because I was with -- that's the other thing I strongly believe, because everyone learns differently, and lots of students, including myself, it would have been helpful if I always knew that I could count on being able to sit with someone one-on-one, just for a little bit of time to catch onto things. And I'm not sure, I try to make sure that to do that because I do some teaching. And I always say, "There is no stupid question. The only stupid question is the one you don't ask. But really, you can ask anything and I'll repeat anything. It's fine. It's fine." And I really do feel that way. Anyway. And it can be done without holding back the class, but I digress. So, I went to an all-gay high school -- no, it was an all-boys high school. Actually, my freshman year, there was a student, Richard Sullivan, who I think he was more sophisticated and more worldly than I was. I think he had a girlfriend, like a real girlfriend, in his freshman year. But he knew there was something different about me, and I knew there was something different about me. I don't think I was really fully aware that it was that I was gay. But anyway, he caught on to it and he started to pick at me a little bit. And this was something I had learned at a much younger age, I challenged him to a fight. And so, out we went one day after school to the Carvel, right by Utopia Parkway, only Queens would have Utopia Parkway, and we had a fistfight. And I feel like, I don't know whether it was the whole school there, but there was a big crowd watching this fight. And we fought and fought and punched and wrestled and whatever until we were just too tired to do it anymore. And he had a bloody lip, and I had a black eye, and that was it. We became sort of friendly after that. But nobody ever picked on me either, because -- and I know this is wrong and I would never advise this to children, I would never say -- sometimes it's just better to have the fight, even if you're going to lose because nobody wants to fight. So, if you fight with one person even if you lose, no one else wants to fight with you because no one really wants to fight. That's not true in every case, and I know there are better ways to diffuse problems. But anyway, that's what worked for me. And it worked for me when I was in elementary school, too. But one of the things -- and this is from when I was very young in elementary school because I was a big kid and I learned how to stand up and fight for myself in the play streets or wherever it was, but I was a little kid. I felt terrible for the children. It wasn't necessarily that they were gay, but overweight, or, I don't know, didn't dress -- when they got made fun of or pushed around, I was a little kid, I was kind of helpless to do anything about it and it just really stuck with me about how horrible and unfair it was for them. So, I would try to be friendly, but I couldn't really protect them. Or, I didn't know how to, I guess. But I felt some kinship with them. But I was able to pass and hang out with the normal boys. Four years of high school. When I was a freshman -- okay, we're going into an R-rated territory, here. Maybe it's only [PG]. There was a football player who, to this day, I can remember that I had a crush on him, and I think he had a crush on me because one time we were alone in the locker room after having showered, and he started chasing me around the locker room with a towel and fooling around. He was running after me and I think, oh, I should have let him catch me. What was I thinking? But from then on, at a school dance, he would bring his childhood sweetheart -- he actually married her and they had many children and he worked with the New York City Uniformed Services. My older brother John was an assembly member from the part of Queens we grew up in and I know where this person lives. I always hoped that my brother would send me door knocking on his block so I could knock on his door. [laughs] But when I would see him at the school dances, he would introduce me to his girlfriend who has become his wife, and I'm not going to say her name, but let's just say her name was Mary. It wasn't Mary. "This is my girlfriend, Mary, it's nice to see you." But he would turn beet-red. And I think he continued to a combination of both like me and was has a little embarrassed that he had maybe shown his cards, if you will, that we liked each other. The things I remember from high school. He was very popular, too, in the school. Very popular. Academically, he did well, but he also was a good football player. So, I was playing sports on Saturdays all the time still through high school, but I also joined a lot of different clubs and organizations in the school because I didn't really want to go home that much. And as I say, I also picked up swimming. So, in the CYO, Catholic Youth Organization, I was on the swimming team and my best thing was distance swimming. I loved it. I loved the water. But when I think about it, sometimes I say I was really great and everything my parents didn't like, so I was best at the sport that my father was not that involved with. I'm always a little rebellious, that Tom Duane. I'm sure there's more to say about high school. I remember one of the reasons I came home from having had left home when I was an adolescent was that I was like, "If I can just make it to going away to college, then I'll get out of here, and so I better go back so I can leave." And I applied to a bunch of different schools. Some, I think, were reaches. One, I applied to Dartmouth. I didn't go up to the school to have an interview but I was interviewed by the alumni in an office building in Midtown Manhattan and I got on the elevator to go to the interview and the elevator started to go, and it dropped 30 floors right before the interview. So, I went into the interview in not really peak condition, but I didn't say anything about the elevator. I probably should have. But they said to me, "Well, if you got into Dartmouth, would you go?" And I'm like, "I'm not sure." Well, I wasn't sure because the goddamn elevator -- it had nothing to do with Dartmouth. [laughs] It was a near-death experience. Anyway, But Lehigh was on the list, and Colgate, and Oberlin, and Middlebury, although I also really kind of wanted to go to Hunter, but it was more important that I should leave home. And so, I got into these schools, but I decided to go to Lehigh. And I don't know I decided to go there because I knew what it was like. Oh, the thing I was going to say, I was fortunate enough to live from Latin mass, and then folk masses, and revolutionary theology, the missionaries that would be in Latin America that were politically organizing, as well, and they really -- so, now there was something in my Catholicism that I really could hold on to. And I guess I didn't really have a political point of view. My father was Republican. He was an Independent who voted Republican, and my mother was -- Kennedy was a saint on that side of the family, and the Kennedys, they also for a long time -- many of them still do it for me. I admire them. Every family has terrible stuff, I guess. I guess even then, I was interested in political -- where was I going with this? I just got sidetracked. Oh, liberation theology. The thing that changed me dramatically, and I wish I could say it was a raid on the Black Panther Party or something, but what it was, was the shooting of the students at Kent State had a huge impact on me. I thought, "Oh my gosh, soldiers will shoot students?" My whole worldview changed. And that was, I think, the biggest thing. I also loved Bobby Kennedy. I said I was born in 1955. I would listen to a transistor radio under my pillow, and not just pop music, which to this day, I like, still. I like other kinds of music, too. Look at me defensively saying that. I like pop music, what can I say? I still like pop music. I sometimes still listen to American Top 40. I want to keep up and I like that music. Anyway, but I was huge for Bobby Kennedy Jr., and I was listening under my pillow with the transistor radio when he won the California primary, and I was listening when he got shot, and all alone in my room -- well, I shared a room with one of my brothers -- but with the transistor radio, and again, that had a huge impact on me. And then, Martin Luther King's assassination, Bobby Kennedy, and JFK was huge. When he was assassinated... My grandmother, my mother's mother, who was the adult in my life who saved me, but for her I don't know what would have happened, but she was the one with completely, totally, unconditional love. And I would say I could do no wrong with her but that's not accurate. I did do things wrong. But the way she corrected me was to say, "Well, maybe this would be a better way to do it." She was so gentle with it. And my mother's mother lived pretty close to us. There'd be lots of times when my grandmother would say to my mother, "Why don't I take Tom to my house for a few days?" And that was like, I was on my way to heaven then. It was really great. They say one adult -- I really believe this -- can make all the difference in a kid's life. She was the one. Anyway, she passed away right after JFK died, of cancer. She had breast cancer, but we were told it was throat cancer, just because that's how it was done. I didn't realize for years and years later, no, she didn't have throat cancer, she had breast cancer. And it was terrible. I remember, it was awful. Because the way they treated breast cancer then was just horrendously -- just awful. Of course, because it was women -- I now know if it had been a man, they never would have treated someone the way they treated women who had breast cancer. It was just awful. Anyway. So, I knew that if I started to smoke cigarettes, I would be smoking cigarettes. If I started to drink, I would drink. If I started to smoke pot, I would smoke pot. And if I started to have sex, I would have sex. And 17, that's when the dam broke. And I don't think this is the reason I went to Lehigh, but Lehigh was not known as a druggie school. It wasn't. It was not, not a druggie school, let's just say that. But it was more well-known for its consumption of alcohol. It was a big frat school. And I guess, honestly, I think I was trying to please my father by going there. As one therapist said to me, "You should stop worshipping at the altar of your father." And so, I guess I was worshipping at his altar. So, off I went to Lehigh. I requested to live in a dorm that was mixed classes and that was co-ed. That meant that the girls, the second year that women were admitted to Lehigh. So, there were maybe 300 women and 3,000 men on campus. But I lived in a dorm where some of the women lived. There were other dorms that were women only. But anyway, they lived in one half. M&amp ; M was the name of the dorm. And the men were on the other side. It was mixed classes. I kind of thought, "No one here is going to smoke pot or anything." The first day, literally, as I was going into my first dorm room, I was walking by a door two doors away from mine and walked by someone who you just knew he was a football player and he said to me, "You want to come in and smoke a joint with me?" I wasn't even there an hour. So, first of all, he was someone I should be terrified of, right? But of course, I was down to smoke a joint. It was unbelievable. I was like, "I didn't think there was any marijuana in all of Lehigh." That's not true. In fact, one time later on, I was sitting in the room and there was an article in the Brown and White that said, "There are no drugs in the Engineering School," and I was sitting in the room, and everybody was an engineering student except for me and they were all smoking pot. So, that stereotype didn't really work. It was not that true. I was from the get-go a problem drinker, although you couldn't tell. I had, I guess what you would call a wooden leg, and just much later on in my life I did go into recovery which I've been in now for almost 40 years, 30 something years. It saved my life. But I was just getting started then. And generally, in college, I did well. Some things I did really well in and some things not so much. And as I now know, it's that ADHD thing, if I was interested, I did great. If I wasn't interested, I got by. And I was an American Studies and an Urban Studies major. I had a double major. I don't know how, but I didn't have to take statistics. I don't know how I made it that I didn't have to take statistics as an Urban Studies major, but I did not. I would love to take statistics now as an adult, but I think I knew it wasn't going to be a match made in heaven then. But anyway, I didn't have to take it. And my oldest brother, Jimmy, my father is Jim, my brother is Jimmy, and he has a son named James who went to Lehigh, was a Griffin, which people at Lehigh know the Griffins are residence halls counselors, I was a Griffin, which was so much easier. I was a Griffin. And I made it. I got in. Now, my brother was head of the Griffins but I don't think he got involved in my -- of course, I had the same last name but I mean, I think, as I said, drugs were -- you could be thrown out for smoking a joint, I think. But as I say, I was pretty good at -- I mean, look at me. Do I look like someone who would smoke a lot of pot and drink too much and maybe experiment with -- no, I have an angelic face. So, maybe that got me. Anyway, I was chosen to be a Griffin and I chose the floor, it was the dorm at the very top of the hill. This is something that I hope someone will flash the name of this dorm, it was the dorm at the very highest, it was above Richards, and not near M&amp ; M, it was as you're facing the mountain to the left. I have great calves as a result. I had pretty good calves to begin with, but they really got great there. Anyway, there were two smaller floors. And so, my brother suggested that, if I was going to get that floor, that I ask that this other guy, Bruce, be a Griffin on the floor above me. He was a year older than I was. And I actually loved being a resident hall counselor, a Griffin. And at the time, freshman had to write themes. All their freshman year, every semester, they had to take an English class where they had to write a theme every week, I want to say. It didn't matter what school they were in. And they would come to me to help with their grammar and their spelling, because I took Latin, I was pretty good at that stuff then. Maybe I'm still okay at it. But I was pretty good. And so, I helped them with their writing. I think back on that, because I wanted to be a teacher, which I didn't become for a very long time, but maybe that started to show then. And they really liked me and trusted me. This is going to make me start crying, because I didn't know whether they were going to, because I'm different. And something that I know now that I'm kind of proud of is that kids and adolescents and young people and animals feel safe around me. And I could have not been that way at all, but it is that way. And I think they felt really safe around me. And in fact, a couple of them wanted to experiment with pot, and they asked if they could smoke pot with me because they felt safe doing that, which was another -- I mean, if Dean Quay is -- oh, he doesn't care anymore. But in a way, it's a huge compliment that they wanted to smoke pot, but they wanted to do it safely, and they asked if they could smoke pot with me. So, I helped them with their themes. I don't know. And I also participated in a dance marathon, which I came in third or fourth place. But I lasted the whole time. I came back, and they were the most amazing cheering support group ever for me in that. So, that was all wonderful. But at the age of 17, I came out sexually and politically, started to. Politically slowly, sexually pretty, in a way, slowly, also. But I'm actually a little bit bisexual, and I actually was out at one time as a bisexual in the Columbia Spectator, which is the Columbia University newspaper because I went to a pro-bi rally and so, they said, "Openly bisexual councilmember." And I think bisexuals have it really hard. So, I always identified gay, but I don't have a perfect Kinsey score. And I knew I would end up with a man, but I have to be -- anyway. So, I was sleeping with men and women then. But I'm going to go back to freshman year because there was something huge happening. So, also on my floor there was someone who had transferred in as a junior from another school. And he lived in the Valley, but he stayed in the dorm. And he'd been to another college, and he had had a girlfriend there. But we hung out together. There was a little group of us, freshmen, and people of all classes, we hung out together. And at some point, I realized that I was falling in love with him, and as far as I knew, he was straight. And I remember walking on campus with him the first semester and I said -- I don't know what to call him, let's say his name is Larry. That wasn't his name. I don't know how I got the courage to do this but maybe this is just how I am. I said, "You know, Larry, I think I've started to develop some feelings for you." I knew it was risky. And then he said to me, "Oh, well, I'm starting to have feelings for you, too." And we went on to have an affair. So, it was my first relationship. And I was really in love with him. I was, unfortunately, incapable of sustaining a relationship. That was on me. But he really loved me. And I really loved him. I just, for reasons that had to do with why I've been in therapy since the age of 21, was just unable to sustain the relationship. And we had to hide it. So, if my roommate was not there, then we would, you know, and if his roommate was not there, if someone went home for the weekend, one of our roommates, who knows whether we were -- actually, one time, I thought I saw -- I did see his roommate when I was campaigning for the city council, and walking along right by Manhattan Plaza, which is where a lot of people in the Performing Arts live. I don't think he lived there, and I'm forgetting his name right now, which is just as well. And he was walking down the block and I said "will you sign the petition" and I realized I know this guy and I think he might have been gay, but it didn't occur to me then. My gaydar is pretty good. My lesbian-dar is pretty good. My bi-dar is all pretty good. Not the best in the world, but I can compete. But I just never gave it any thought. We were so afraid. And he was kind of shy. Anyway, it's just how ironic. And who knows, maybe he did -- he probably did -- I'm sure people knew. Dorm room doors were not that thick anyway. So, I fell in love. But I never went home during the summer. I took courses at Lehigh. I didn't want to go home. And my goal was to try to graduate in three years, which I almost made it, but not quite. And I guess it must have been the summer after my sophomore year, but it was during -- let's see, I got there in '72-'73, so '74-'75 was when I met Phil, and Bruce, and Craig. So, the other Griffin who was upstairs and had a small floor, but we treated him like we were just one happy family, was gay, and I helped him come out. I actually do recruit. I do. Or at least I invite. So, he actually is gay, and actually, there was girl at Lehigh that I said something about, that maybe it was too much for people, and I remember her saying, "No, I don't think so." And of course, later on, after I left school and I had kept in touch with her, and she came out as a lesbian, so maybe I -- I was able to be out. I always think about this. Not everybody was able to be out, and I was able to be out there. It was a gift. I'm never critical of people's struggles about coming out, but for me, it was almost like I had no choice. Anyway, after my sophomore year, our relationship didn't last past that first summer, unfortunately. And again, it was on me. Have I said that enough, that it was my fault that we didn't last? But it was that summer that I started to become gay, politically, way more than I had been. And I did a lot of things. There was a gay bar in Allentown, go figure, which I went to when I was in what turned out to be in my final year at Lehigh. I went there with Craig, and Bruce, and Phil, and maybe Cindy, who was the only woman in our group. We were lucky to have any women since there was so women there in our little queer group. So, I guess I need to separate a few things, even though they were happening at the same time. So, I started to go to Gay Activist Alliance meetings in New York City. I would take the bus into the city. I both went for the politics and to meet boys, truth be told. There's nothing wrong with combining that. I think that's one of the reasons ACT UP was so very successful. And I met these two, Rick and Ron, I think, and they were librarians and they had an organization they founded called Le-Hi-Ho, which is both a great name and an unfortunate name, all at the same time. But because they were librarians, they had every gay book imaginable, and they had lots of contemporary political books that had been written by gay activists. And I read them voraciously. Actually, these books were actually the -- I'd like to think of myself as a feminist, I like to think of myself as someone who's tried to both fight against racism, though I know I made mistakes, but my intentions I think have been good. I started to read. I read every feminist book I could get my hands on. One of them was Jill Johnson who is very funny, and she had a column in the Village Voice, and she wrote, she never capitalized any letters, and I don't know, she was not that great with sentences, but she was so funny, both her column and the books that she wrote. And many years later, I met her at a literary agent's house because she was Jill Johnson's agent and I was in the city council at the time. And she was with her partner, who was from Denmark, and I was like, "Oh my God, I can't believe I'm meeting you," because I get kind of gushy with people. I was like, "I love you," whatever. And she said, "And the most important thing to me is that we can get married," and I was like, "Oh my God, Jill Johnson wants to get married?" She was totally opposed, are you kidding? I was shocked. But of course, it was so they could be together. But I was like, "I can't believe this, I thought we were post-marriage." But anyway, it was still a thrill to meet her. And she just stands out. I read Kate Millett books, and I want to say Audre Lorde, yes, I did, but there was a white woman, I can't remember her name. And I listened to records that were produced by Redwood Records, which was a lesbian record label. I hope I'm ascending towards becoming a lesbian, that I haven't peaked and I'm on my way down now, because I'm a girl boy, I call myself. You know some women are more comfortable around men, and some men are more comfortable around men, I am a man who is most comfortable when there's lots of women around. In fact, my first job in New York City was working for six creative people at an ad agency, six women. It was all women copywriters and art directors, and I was their administrative assistant and I loved that. Of course, they loved it, too. I don't think I caused that to happen, but it was a happy coincidence. I read the autobiography of Malcolm X, that just really stands out. Manchild in the Promised Land, many other books having to do with Black liberation. I was aware of the Young Lords, which was a Puerto Rican, it was like the Black Panthers, but they were for people who were Puerto Rican in New York. So, all of this liberation literature, I just devoured it. And then, who knew there was a whole treasure trove of gay stuff, too. And so, because of Rick and Ron, I got to read a ton of those books, too. And it all informed my point of view in the world. Very important to me, all those books. Anyway, so that was happening the summer before -- this will be my third year at Lehigh. Oh, I told my parents I was gay -- oh, I can't remember now, was it freshman or sophomore year? I will remember this but can't remember now. I think it was after my sophomore year. And they were very upset about it. And actually, my younger brother also said he was gay, but I was the older, I was probably the bad influence on him or something. The brother a year older than me at one time thought he wanted to be a Maryknoll missionary. So, the Maryknoll priest used to send someone to visit our house on a pretty regular basis, and as my mother tells the story and this is true, it became very clear that my brother John did not want to be a Maryknoll missionary, that I wanted to be a missionary. I have met priests from that order who are gay, but they're not very gay positive. There are other Catholic priest orders who are more positive. I digress. But it maybe just tells you something about my character -- not character, but where my interests -- because again, it was liberation theology. [Inaudible] So, I told my parents that I was gay and they said, "Well, if you continue to be gay then we're not going to pay for you to go back to school," and I said, "Okay." And I went out and I got a cab driver's license and I rented an apartment in Jackson Heights, and all of a sudden, they realized that I really wasn't going to go back. So, then they went, "Well, wait a second, okay, we'll pay for you to go back. [laughs] But under three conditions." And the three conditions were, I had to speak with the chaplain at Lehigh, I had to go see a psychiatrist, and there was a professor at Lehigh who was sort of a liaison to students who thought they might be gay. And so, I agreed to that. I went to psychiatrist and he was like, "There's nothing wrong with you." I mean, there was, but gay was not the thing. And then, the chaplain at Lehigh... MF: [Duke Lusher?], I think it was. TD: Yes. Not a big deal to him, either, so I passed that test. And then, I went to see the professor who was the liaison to the gay students and I seduced him. I wasn't really interested in having -- it was just a one-night stand or a two-night stand, but it wasn't a match that was going to be made in heaven. Again, that's something else that all of us would have been thrown out of the school for. But anyway, I'm not sure, maybe he had sex once when he was much younger until I came along. But a few months after that, he met another professor from another school, and as far as I knew, they lived happily ever after since then so you're welcome, Professor. So, I passed that test, too, a little bit too much. I got an A-plus there. [laughs)] But in my senior year, I was out, out, at Lehigh. And I cannot say it was particularly well received at any level, administration, faculty, or students. And ironically, there were two associate deans of student affairs both of whom were gay. One was African American, one was white, and they were both gay. In the closet, but gay. And I'm not saying that they couldn't have, they would have lost their jobs. And I'm pretty sure that my freshman English teacher was a lesbian. I am absolutely sure that she was a lesbian, actually. So, no one go back and look at my transcripts to see who all these people are who was in the administration. Or maybe they don't care, but I don't want to out them. And I know that this woman, she was, of course, a woman not tenured. She taught writing and English. Her favorite book was Moby Dick. She loved Moby Dick. I think I took another English course with her besides the course where we had to write themes. But I lived off campus with Bruce and Craig and Phil and a couple of other people, women, who were friends of ours. I'm jumping ahead, but we used to have great parties with disco music, and everybody wanted to come party. The same people who might have wanted to beat us up under other circumstances wanted to come to the party and they would be doing the Bump with whoever would bump with them. And she came to a couple of those parties. I made sure to invite her and she came. She was a very serious woman, but she still came to the disco parties that we had. But the reason Craig and Bruce and Phil and I lived together was -- I don't know why I didn't continue as a Griffin, because I did love it. I left, probably, while people still liked me. So, it's best to leave when people are sorry to see you go than pushing me out the door. So, I lived off campus with them because Bruce and Craig were thrown out of their fraternity, Theta Chi, which was half ROTC and half hippies. It was a very non-binary fraternity. But they threw them out. And Phil was being a fraternity brother where you don't live there but you socialize there, so you go to parties and you take your meals there, you just don't live there. And he was banned, also, from that fraternity. And we hung out with each other openly but it was the first time that I experienced a bias crime, I guess you could say. I was never physically assaulted. As I recall, I think Phil might have been, or he was threatened one time, pretty much. We got threatening phone calls. I wrote letters to the Brown and White, "How dare you presume that everyone is heterosexual," these lines that I picked up from all these political books that I had read. And I asked to create, I think it was Lehigh Homophile. Homophile, what kind of word is that? I guess it was just a word that I just -- actually, Le-Hi-Ho, which was Ron and Rick's group, it's both a great name and kind of a funny name, homophile is just not a great name at all. What are we, in Greece? They wouldn't even say it there. I don't even know where it came from. Anyway, the name was not the reason they turned it down. The mission was the reason they turned it down. There was one lesbian member, Cindy, and another person who's gay, but at the time he was saying he was bisexual. Meanwhile, I was a little bi boy who was saying he was gay. But really, I am gay. I'm gay with just little bi overlays. We wouldn't get to have an organization. We weren't allowed to. And I can't even remember all the ways, but there were lots of ways that I tried to make the point that I was gay, like bringing it up in class when it wasn't really -- oh, and one time, Margaret Mead came to Lehigh and spoke in that hall where the wrestling takes place, that wooden -- it's a beautiful old building. It was the athletics center and they had wrestling in it. I think, in retrospect, why wasn't I going to wrestling matches? I mean, that would be like soft porn for me. But I rarely went to them. Lehigh was known as a great wrestling school. Who knew? Who knew? It's a good thing I didn't know. [laughs] Where was I going with that? Oh, Margaret Mead came. So, she was speaking and it was packed. And it must have been around an alumni weekend, or lots of parents there also. And then, she was taking questions from the audience, and of course, I threw my hand up, and I said something like, "What do you think about the way gay communities are growing around the country?" And something, whatever it was, she had gay in it, right? And she was a little flustered by this question and there was [gasps] from the audience. But me, I just put it right out there. And of course, in retrospect, she was a lesbian and she came out. You're welcome, Margaret. You're welcome. [laughs] MF: So, this is Mary Foltz, and I'm back with Senator Duane and he was just telling us a little bit about trying to organize a group for gay students at Lehigh, Dean Quay shot that down, that group didn't come to be supported by the university and sharing some stories about his friends at Lehigh, and I'm going to turn that back over to you. Are there other Lehigh memories that have come to mind? TD: Lehigh, the community of women was very small, still, compared to men, and for parties, women had to be imported. It's a terrible way to say it, but basically, there just weren't enough women to go to the fraternity parties, that sort of thing. But Phil in particular and I, not so much Craig and Bruce, they were African American and so there's a whole other layer of, I want to say discrimination is not really quite the -- it is appropriate but there's probably a more appropriate word to use, which maybe I will later. But Phil and I, we did things that were gayer. We did more stereotypical gay things to make the point than we were, just to make the point that we were gay. And we had a lot of fun doing that. [laughs] There was a certain kind of jeans that gay guys wore that had this yellow stitching. I got my hair cut in New York with this feather cut. There were also these cork shoes, they were sandals with a heel, but they were made out of cork with straps. We would wear those, or we'd take turns. Someone had a pair ; I think maybe Craig did. Anyway, we would wear gay clothes. I know that sounds weird, what's gay clothes? But I don't know. As I say, whenever I had the chance, I brought up something gay, especially in that last year when I was at Lehigh. And when I was a freshman, there was some other freshmen that I was kind of friends with and I think they wanted to be friends with me. I hadn't sought them out, but I knew that they wanted to be my friend. But what happened by being open about being gay is that there were some students who would continue to hang out with me or with us but then there were other students who would not. And the ones that would continue to hang out were both gay and not gay, and the ones who -- it's funny, I don't know what's happening, because now my face, I feel like it's having a shame attack, for some reason. I didn't say anything shameful, so thanks, Dad. But I can just feel all of a sudden it goes like this and my face turns red. You know what I think? I think it was I had a shame attack about dressing up and acting gay, which is just such a historic thing. So, it's hard to be gayer than I am, but I still have stuff around it. Anyway, where was I going with that? And so, there were students who would not be seen with us because they were gay and they thought by being near us they were -- and there were straight people that thought that people might think they were gay if they hung out with us. But then, there were gay people who may not have been out, but they hung out with us, came to our parties, or whatever. And heterosexuals, too. Maybe there were lots of questioning people, too, I don't know. But that is something I've noticed in my entire life, like when I was first elected to city council and I put together -- I'm always making groups. I tried making a group of city council employees who were gay and we didn't get many people to come. And I remember saying to them, "Has it been your experience that you sometimes don't want to be seen with me because people will think you're gay?" And they were like, "Yes, it's crossed our minds." And this is in 1992 in New York City working, and I'd been openly gay since, what, '74, whatever it is. Anyway, maybe schools that have gay-straight alliances maybe have helped with that, but I'm pretty sure it continues to happen. And I've also been thinking, even when I talk about any opportunity to bring up gay -- and I say "gay" because that's what we said then. When I move into the future, I say -- I actually prefer to say, "queer," which when I learned to say queer, I was so good with that because it's so inclusive. But because of gay-straight alliances, and I would have younger staff members at the newspaper and they're like, "That's an awful thing." So, then it was back to LGBTQIA-plus, which I always thought meant HIV-positive for years, but it doesn't, it just means et cetera, et cetera. So, sometimes I say LGBTQIA-plus-plus, because I'm living for a very, very long time with HIV, probably since 1982. Anyway, but I say gay, which I would never say now, contemporarily, but then, yes. We were sexist and I'm sorry about that. But that's just the way -- I'm educatable, let's say that. But I do know some of these students that I was acquainted with who were a little more reticent about being my friend. And when I think back on it, it didn't really hurt my feelings. I think I instinctively understood that they just weren't there yet. And there would be students that, for whatever reason, we might bump into each other on campus or something, and I'd know if a student asked me questions -- and this is something later on, in the '70s, actually, when I was in New York, I was a member of this organization called The Chelsea Gay Association, which I may or may not get up to, but we used to have rap sessions with police officers in the '70s. Saturday morning, we would get up and go to the precinct and we would talk with the police officers about what it was like to be gay, to try to make sense of it because the cops were not so great with the gays, you know what I mean? They were not our best friends. But we did that. And I would say, "If someone asks you, 'How did you tell your parents?' they're asking that question because they're wondering how are they going to tell their parents?" So, chances are -- maybe a person can say, "I have this friend who wants to tell their parents," or something. But it's a tell, I guess. And so, I was militantly, avowedly, determinedly gay in so many ways, but I was also not always that way. And I was approachable. But our group never really got bigger. We were tops, maybe five people. And we had meetings. Even though we weren't recognized we had meetings, we just created them ourselves. One time, we invited a group of lesbians from Reading to come and all of us be together. And I remember this so clearly, because I had read all this feminist and queer literature -- we didn't call it that -- well, actually, some people did say "queer," I guess. But anyway, I remember asking, "What do you read?" And they said, "Well, we meet and we read Ms., and we discuss it." And that's what lesbians in Reading, Pennsylvania, could do at that time. And they were, God bless them, hedging my bets, or Goddess bless them, that they were out enough to see us. I don't know how out they were in Reading, but they found each other. There were five or six, maybe. And we were all kind of desperate to find kindred spirits. And Lafayette started a little gay group, and we met with them, and it also was mostly men, male. Thank heavens, because we all got to sleep with someone different. [laughs] We'd all been through each other so we had to move out to new territory. It was a lonely existence. Oh, there was that bar in Allentown. We didn't go there that often. No one had a car. Anyway. The gay bar in Allentown. There was no Uber. I'm not saying that there was some romantic liaisons between Lehigh and Lafayette queers, I'm not saying that. There might have been some, let's say that. Perhaps there was some interaction. Anyway, there was Moravian, Muhlenberg, there was the Cedar Crest, and the unfortunately named Beaver College, which eventually, thank someone that they changed their name. I mean, you can only imagine at Lehigh -- the testosterone. But anyway, I know that we met students from all of those schools who were gay, but I can't remember whether they had any organized or sub culturally organized, or under the radar organizations. I kind of think they don't but maybe they did. I hope they did. But if they didn't, I hope they found each other. Anyway, you know what? In my life, now, people have said to me, "How do you organize?" Because I was, from a very early age, organizing. And I said, "Well, you just start doing stuff and you try to get others to do it with you. That's basically how it's done." In addition to joining every club in my high school, I was thinking back on this, I also was very active in my parish team clubs, not because I was so into the parish, but it was just another way to not be home and my brother, John, of course, was the head of it but I was the program director, so I was in charge of putting together dances. And I did things like that. From the age of 15, 16, put together ski trips to Vermont with two busloads of teenagers, and I'd arranged for the rooms and the ski lift ticket. How was I doing that? I don't know. I was just doing it. I don't even know whether I could do that now, but I did that then. So, I would create organizations and I did that later on in life, too. And I did that in high school with some people, we founded an organization called "Students for a Christian Society." We couldn't have it SDS, so we made it SCS. It's just liberation theology, that's what we were using as our blueprint for how the organization and what we were going to be for. But we used to do a reading and recreation program at a Catholic school in Harlem on Saturdays. We would go when we were in high school and we'd work with these elementary school kids and help them with reading. I put that together. And I worked. I worked for my father some of the time when I was younger. He was a stockbroker. But I also worked at a camp for developmentally disabled children, so it was mentally retarded children, who were called emotionally disturbed children, who I now know were autistic, but at the time, they were referred to as emotionally disturbed, which seems like it was their parents' fault, if you said that. But anyway, it was these two populations of kids and I was a counselor at that camp. They didn't really belong together, there was no reason to put them together. But anyway, we all had one, and I liked that. That was, again, under the auspices of the Catholic diocese and I met some people there. And I combined those people with the people from my Catholic team club and my high school friends, and that would be these groups that would be going and doing things. That's just what I did. And so, at Lehigh, I was a Griffin, I was a DJ, and I'm sure that I talked about gay stuff on my show. I played, obviously, records, too, it was a big thing. But I had to get a license. I don't even think you need a license to do it anymore, I had a radio license. One night a week I had a radio show. And I also joined an organization that went out and volunteered all over the place. I was a very active person. And as I say, I got some really good grades, and I got some really not so great grades. But I wanted to leave. And so, I really tried. The first summer, I didn't want to go home and I wanted to be with my then-boyfriend for that first year so I took classes. And then, after my sophomore year I took classes that summer, also. And I was thinking about the various jobs. I worked at a luncheon in New York when I was 17, which I actually loved. I have to be around people when I work. So, I took six courses or something. I tried to take additional courses so I could get out sooner. I took courses, summer courses. And I just needed to take two more classes. It took me two years, but I did. So, I left at the time of the students in the class of '75 were graduating, but I'm actually class of '76, and I got my degree in 1977, and my parents were very happy I got that. I believe Henry Kissinger spoke at the commencement when I actually graduated, which fortunately there was no Q&amp ; A. Fortunately for everyone there, there was no Q&amp ; A with Henry Kissinger at that graduation. And I was happy that I graduated also. I took a psychology course at NYU and I can't remember what the other two courses at NYU were -- anyway, I got my degree. I'm privileged. My parents paid for my college education and they paid for my books. But in terms of spending money, my parents were very strange. I also worked. I worked at the Lehigh University Bookstore. And I think I owe them an amends because I may possibly have taken a few things without paying for it from there. Oh, Julie Brinker. So, I went back to Lehigh around 1985 because my brother, my parents were going to a Lehigh-Lafayette game and I was like, "I want to go," and they were shocked. Like, "You never want to go to Lehigh," because I heard about this guy there who was trying to start a gay organization. So, they all went to the game and I sought him out. I just don't remember his name, now. Oh. Oh, oh, oh, oh. I'll think of it at some point. Anyway, same thing happened with him. There was a little group and then he graduated and there was nothing. That was the '80s. I don't really know. It wasn't until I was contacted by this woman in the alumni office, Julie Brinker, who is a lesbian, and she reached out to me, and I think one time before, I was invited to speak at a class at Lehigh, which is a very interesting experience. But shout out to Julie Brinker. She's left. She works, I think, for the public television stationed there, now. But she reached out to me so I have signed a thing, Lehigh is going to get at least 15,000 dollars when I die, no rush. But I'll add whatever was it that I may have taken from the bookstore. I just know I did. I don't even remember, maybe was a few albums, I can't remember. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. But I worked there to make money to, I guess, smoke and drink pot and party. I was very busy. It's really hard to drink and use drugs and organize at the same time, which is one of the reasons I gave up. I just didn't have time for it. When I spoke at Lehigh, maybe it was two times before I went with Julie Brinker, maybe when I was first elected or something to the council, I don't remember the circumstances, but Lehigh was the first place I ever went and spoke at. It was the early '90s where if it's a queer audience, I would sometimes say, "How many of you have been the victim of a hate crime, a homophobic hate crime, or had someone yell epithets and you were afraid that you might be physically," and everyone raised their hand. I don't think I've ever experienced someone who didn't raise their hand that that didn't happen to them. And I asked the same question at Lehigh, but I said, "How many have done that?" And several students raised their hands. And that was the first time I had ever experienced that, these students actually acknowledged that they had beaten up gay people or had verbally threatened gay people. And I don't really know how I handled it. I think just by them doing it and me being there maybe made them think again about not doing that, but I don't exactly remember. It was a little hazy. I was sober and everything by then, it's just it was a while ago, so I don't remember. But anyway, Julie Brinker, many times she would come to New York, we would have breakfast together, we would talk and talk about Lehigh and what was going on. And no one from Lehigh ever reached out to me with the exception of when my father, my brother. I have stuff with my father, but I love my father. I've forgiven him for all this stuff and I love him and he taught me many great things. And I love my brother, Jimmy, but I don't think he's ever smoked pot in his life. I know he's never smoked pot in his life. He doesn't have the same kind of history as I have, let's say that. Until you all reached out to me to do this, since Julie left, I haven't heard a word from Lehigh. And I'm not sure, I don't want to speak on her behalf, but she was good. She got me. If she'd stayed on, we still had plans to try to put together a bigger people that had come out after they left Lehigh to try to get us all together, but I think they didn't know, in that office, how valuable she was. And I'm not surprised. So, Lehigh, they have a lounge where everyone if they're not he/him, or she/her, and his, and hers, or they/them, which is just mind-blowing from the way it was when I was there. Which, of course, interestingly -- I shouldn't say -- it's a heterosexual student body, administrative people, many of them, I think, were heterosexual [inaudible] the ones that I was there that wouldn't let us have a gay group. It wasn't they wouldn't let us have a gay group, but two of them were gay guys. Ironic. I had to leave Lehigh. I needed to get out. And I came to New York. But I continued on a path of working during the day and doing community and LGBT. I think it was miracle we started to say lesbian and gay, which was a step up from saying gay and lesbian, but anyway. I continued being active in the queer community and non-queer community and my life went on. There's something that happened a little while ago and I think it started with when I was telling you about acting gayer than -- maybe I'm ashamed to say that I was acting gayer than I would normally act. I feel in a way that's a terrible thing to say, because another thing that, from my childhood or my adolescence that I remember is to be very, very careful about how I walked. And I'm a very stiff walker because I was terrified to walk gay. And I came out as a relatively young age for a time, but sometimes, I think that people who, they couldn't or wouldn't hide that they were too fem or too butch, if they were gay, or lesbian, or nonbinary, that they just were who they were, are, have an easier time later on in life because they get the bad stuff over with when they're younger. As I say, dancing, it's hard to dance when you're trying not to dance gay. And I didn't want to dance gay in front of the football player and his girlfriend. And that's true. It is absolutely true that I really did everything I could to minimize that. And I'm sure that lasted through my early days in college, even as I was coming out, there was some shame in the community, I think, while there's such horrible discrimination against, particularly people of transgender experience or expression, and non-binary people. So, I'm feeling a little ashamed of myself both because, thanks Dad, because I dressed and acted gay, more gay, more stereotypically gay, for a while. Not every day, every once in a while. I'm not saying that defensively, just sometimes you just had fun with it, but we didn't live to do it or anything. But the way I explained it, I feel there's that, "Oh, my father wouldn't approve of that," but it's also that I think I feel terribly that I was disrespectful towards people who were able to be who they were and didn't -- so, I'm sorry about that. And I've noticed since I said that that it's been hard for me to make eye contact, which is something I do. So, I'm a 67-year-old queer, I've been gay since I was 17, and militantly gay since I was 18-and-a-half or something, and yet, I still have stuff. My life went on. I became active in politics and I became the Democratic leader for the area that I lived in, it was an elected position, I had to run in a primary, an actual election in. And I ran and lost for public office. And I ran for the city council and I disclosed my HIV status. It was really sort of the first thing I sent out to people in the district, and there's a much longer story that goes with that. So, I hope I get a second chance to keep going because there's a big part of my life with that. And I went on. I think the same thing holds true for when I was at Lehigh, people went, "Why did you do that? Why did you try to start a homophile, why did you do that?" Because I had no choice. It was my calling. I don't think I really understood this until I have a friend who was a police officer and openly gay, which is tough. I also have one of the first female firefighters who is part of the lawsuit, and these are very, very brave people to be out in uniform services many years ago. But anyway, my friend Don said to me -- because, politically, you would think that I would be someone who didn't like the police at all, but I'm not. I'm like, "Listen, most police, they want to get the guy, they want to help people. I want to help people. And most elected officials are good and some are terrible. Most cops are good and some are terrible. And some ditch diggers are good and some are terrible. Some doctors are good and some are terrible. It's just the way it is." And he has a very interesting story because -- I can't remember whether his mother or his father had a blood transfusion and passed it to his other parent, and they died of AIDS. So, he was gay but his parents died of AIDS as a result of a blood transfusion. I was explaining to the students in a class that I teach how people divided the world between innocent victims and non-innocent, so they were innocent victims. He wasn't like that. We weren't like that at all, at all. But that would be it, they were innocent. Anyway, he said, "I became a police officer because it was a calling. It was like a vocation," like a person wanted to become a priest or a rabbi. It was a calling. And I think it was my calling, too, where I was able to do it so I did. But I had no choice. [inaudible] well, maybe, yes, but it doesn't feel that way to me. It's just, I can't imagine not doing it and I regret any of the times when I had an opportunity and I let it go by for whatever reason. Because as a gay person -- and this was big when I was in elected office -- you have to choose your battles because I was always the only one. If there's two queers, well, then they can take turns and then other people start to do it. When you're the only one, I would talk to everybody. When I talked with people, "We're the only people. We have to decide every day whether or not to come out." And I mean that. Even when you're out, you have to decide to come out. If you say something at work, "I have a date tonight with," or, "I went to see my partner's family," or, "I went to see whatever play it was," and say something to indicate -- but you have to think about whether or not we should say -- and I hope that's not the way it is for younger people, that they don't have to think of it that way. But people in my generation, I think we do think about it. And I when I was younger, I was, absolutely, like, "Is this the moment that I choose?" And Lehigh, I sought them out, but I let some go by, too. I couldn't do it all the time. But I would have to be like, "Is this that important?" And I also would have to make the decision when I was -- and this is particularly true -- in the city council and in the Senate, when I was in the minority for most of the time, the Democrats were in the minority. So, for instance, I represented the Trade Center at 9/11, and bills were getting passed for the spouses of people who were killed. And I voted for those bills but I went -- there was a particular Republican senator who, as much as I'm against the death penalty, it's as much as he's for, but he was a real gentleman. And these kinds of laws would go through his committee. And so, I went to him and I said, "Next year, could you add domestic partners to this list?" And he said, "Yes, but let's do it quietly." And I just wanted to get it done. I didn't have to make a big thing. I knew he was gettable. I don't mean that in a good way, that he would understand. Even if he'd never vote for gay marriage, but he thought that was fair. I knew he would think that was fair. So, there were times when I did things like that, just to get it done. But then, there were other times when I had to make a scene. And I'm an anger, not a fear. There was a time when there was this thing where people would choose the colors that they were, "I'm a fall," or "I'm a spring," "I'm a winter," there's certain colors of clothing that people would wear? We went through amazing times. Maybe that still happens. Anyway, some people are a fear, some people are -- I'm an anger. I'm not a fear. I'm an anger. I'm an anger and I'm a sad. Those are my two predominate -- behind my anger is a lot of sadness, I would have to say. I can't even get to fear because the other stuff is so big. So, I am pretty fearless. I just am. Oh my God, I'm about to say something good about myself, but I used it. I was able to, so I did. Not everybody was and I did even at Lehigh. And I tried to stop, sometimes. I'm never going to stop. I can't help myself. I think I ran for the student government at Lehigh, by the way. I lost, but I ran. And I lost. What was it called? Was it senate? Was it the Student Senate? Which was one of the demands when my brother, who was three years -- when everybody else was demonstrating against the Vietnam War they were demonstrating that freshmen didn't have to wear this little cap called dinks and they were demonstrating to be allowed to have a student government. That's what their thing was. So, yeah, I ran for the senate but I was overreaching. But I did lose the first time I ran for public office. So, maybe if I had run again, I would have won the second time around. But I was openly gay at the time that I ran. Anyway, I don't know. I must have run a very bad campaign. I do want to talk about all the rest but it's amazing to me that at Lehigh now, that there would be an affirmative effort to get queer people into fraternities and sororities, like unbelievable to me. Even when they started having the lounge for the LGBTQ community, I can't imagine the people were joining fraternities and sororities up until very recently, being open about who they were with their sexual orientation. I may be completely wrong about that, but I don't think so. People came out once they were there but I think even that would be hard to come out in some fraternities. Because there's a fear. And sororities, too, there's, "Oh my God, we let a queer person in. Now everyone's going to think all of us are." I'm sure that goes on to this day. I live in New York City and there is discrimination and there is stigma attached to being queer here, and certainly HIV, which is a whole other thing. So, it happens here. And Lehigh is a little behind New York City, I think, politically, in many ways. So, people say that what I did was brave and how did I? But people that are doing what they're doing at Lehigh now that are going to join a fraternity or sorority being open about who they are, good for them. That's brave. And I think, New York, if I really was going to really continue to be active? I'm a left-wing, they barely let me stay in the Democratic party. I'm very, very, very progressive and I always got endorsed by the socialists, even though it's not as large as it is now, the group that AOC -- where am I going? So, I would go to Alabama or Mississippi where it's much harder to be gay, that's where you can get married and the next day get fired. I'm not even sure Pennsylvania has a Civil Rights bill. I don't know. So, people, they take risks. Sometimes before I go to bed, I might watch this TV show called "House Hunters," and once in a while, they have a gay couple. But they're living in Texas. I think, "Oh, are they out to everybody in Texas?" You know what I mean? Maybe they work in places where it's no big deal, but still, it's braver to be gay in Texas -- I've been to Texas -- than it is to be in New York City. I love New York, what can I tell you? And I have an affordable apartment, so I don't think I'm going to go to Mississippi. But those are the brave people. And a young person who will still come out, it's a political act. It's a big deal. And yeah, I came out sexually, yes, but the bigger thing was to come out politically. MF: I just want to say, listening to you talk about it, you were compelled at Lehigh, to be an out student, it felt like a calling to you. And I just wrote a brief history of LGBTQIA-plus activism on campus and I went through the Brown and White and I went through the yearbooks. To my mind from what I've been able to find, Rick Balmer, James Hopkinson were involved with that early Le-Hi-Ho, but what I've been able to find, you were the first out person on campus that was advocating for a public group, not a support group, public group for gay students at that time, at Lehigh. And for me, you and others in your friend group, Rick Balmer, and Hopkinson before you, you laid the foundation for that inclusivity that comes into our present twenty-first century at Lehigh. We have the Pride Center, we have Spectrum. I see a direct line from what you did at Lehigh to what my life as an out professor has been like at Lehigh. And I'm so grateful to actually be sitting with you today, face-to-face, and hearing you talk about what it was like for you to be there. I just want to say thank you at the end of the interview, today. And I hope I get to do a second interview because I want to hear about politics in New York City. TD: Absolutely. You're welcome. And thank you for saying it. And one of the reasons it's so important, I knew when I left there wasn't going to be anything anymore. And I was sad about that. And that's why I went in the '80s to see that guy, and when he left, there was nothing. But I couldn't stay there forever. I couldn't stay in office ; you have to leave it to someone else. But you're saying that, I don't -- not that I let people down by leaving, because that's what you're supposed to do, but thank you for saying that. I didn't really ever think of it in those terms. MF: People remember you. In other oral histories, "Oh, have you talked to Tom Duane?" "There was a student that was trying to get this group going, you might know him. He was a New York City Senator." Your name keeps coming up, for Bob Wittman, for Frank Whelan, for Rick Balmer, certainly, they've mentioned you. And the students that came after that started the Human Diversity League, I think that was [Jonathan Glennon?], maybe Ethan Felson. TD: Yes, yes. MF: It was Ethan Felson? That group was around, then it got resurrected. And then, in the '90s, there was a Les-Bi-Gay group that was there in the '90s. TD: Vaguely remember that. MF: So, people kept trying. And they really were building, whether they knew your name in terms of your Lehigh history -- I'm sure everyone knew your name because you were a New York State Senator -- but whether they knew your history at Lehigh, they were building on that. You were pushing the administrators at that time to sanction a group, to support a group on campus, and that did eventually happen by the time it was the twenty-first century and other students came building on what you did to make a reality. And Lehigh is absolutely transformed and changed, today, because of your efforts and other students' efforts that came after. TD: I want to say thank you. Thank you. It was also -- I want to say it was my privilege. But I'm happy to hear that and it makes me happy that I did what I did. So, thank you for saying that. You're going to come up in therapy next week. [laughter] And it's so thrilling -- are you tenured? Oh my God, that's -- because women at CUNY -- that's a whole other story. I have to be observed because I'm not a tenured professor and the woman who was going to observe me, I was like, "I'm so thrilled, a tenured woman professor from the school," and she said, "I don't have tenure." And I said, "Oh." I hope she's on the tenured track. I'm not going to get to vote on it. But actually, when I disclosed my HIV status -- which we'll talk about -- it was one of the things that we tested about coming out was whether a professor should tell the head of the department they had HIV when they were being considered for tenure. That's for another day. MF: Oh, yes. I can't wait to hear more about it. TD: It's a big thing. When did people start telling the head of the department that they were queer? When did that start? MF: I put it right on my resume. TD: Good. MF: Like, "I did a lesbian organizing project, and here I am." TD: I'm sure you thought about it, because you were coming out, but you were going to do it no matter what, right? There was no stopping you. But it still was a decision that not everybody makes. MF: Yeah. TD: I think that's great. I'm thrilled. Really, the world is changing, and I tell students, "You've got to hang on to what it is and build on it because it could slip away. It could slip away and don't let that happen." What I say about Lehigh, even though it wasn't a real recognized group, "Never give up the franchise," but I did give up the franchise. But if I could have, I would have, even if there was one member, just to keep it alive. Maybe there's no need -- there is still an ACT UP, but there's a lot of organizations that I've been a part of, Queers for Economic Justice is one. They went out of business. I'm like, "No. Don't do that. Even if you're going bankrupt, just reorganize and don't give it up." It was something I started when I was in office, which if you read the history of it, my name is not mentioned because I'm an establishment -- am I bitter and angry about it? [laughs] There were three of us who did it, someone else in my office, and suddenly, he's the only one, the one who wasn't working for government -- the three of us created it and then we sent it on its way and it went, but if you read about its founding, we're not in there. That's why I have to write that... MF: You have to write that book. TD: I have to write that book. I have to write that book. MF: Well, I'm going to be in touch with Bruce, and maybe we can schedule a follow-up. I know you have a busy schedule, but I loved that. TD: And how is that possible? I'm the busiest, retired, unemployed mostly person that I know. I don't know how. I think I just can't help myself. I remember Gloria Steinem saying this one time, she was speaking at some event, I can't remember what it was, and her thank you for whatever award, and then she started giving us phone numbers to call about this and that, and then she said, "I just," and I thought, "I know exactly what that's like." [laughs] She couldn't help herself. Good for people like us. MF: Yes. We need people like you. TD: Like us. MF: Like us. Like us. I will be in touch and I just want to close the interview by saying, once again, thank you so much. TD: It's been a pleasure. It was great speaking with you. Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile= Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:52:56 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Thomas Duane, February 17, 2022 (Part 1) Description An account of the resource Thomas Duane recounts the early years of his life, his relationship with sexuality and time at Lehigh University, as well as his early interactions with activism and politics. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LGBT-22 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-02-17 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright remains with the interview subject and their heirs. https://lgbt.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/032be941dec66d395effa039323c0608.png 6d37fe9762d7a4d362ddede5e5f0ee67 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Stories of Lehigh Valley LGBTQ+ Community Members (2022 - ) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Mary Foltz Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Thomas Duane OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LGBT-36.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 June 12, 2022 Thomas Duane, June 12, 2022 (Part 4) LGBT-36 1:46:29 LVLGBT-2022 Stories of Lehigh Valley LGBTQ+ Community Members (2022 - ) Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository Support for the collection of this interview was provided by the American Council of Learned Societies (ACLS). trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Thomas Duane Mary Foltz video/mp4 DuaneThomas_202202612_video_trimmed.mp4 1.0:|29(13)|60(8)|81(5)|104(3)|125(5)|146(8)|165(12)|186(14)|209(3)|232(4)|253(16)|276(11)|303(2)|318(9)|339(6)|358(18)|377(13)|396(10)|419(7)|440(17)|457(4)|472(9)|489(8)|516(4)|537(3)|560(8)|575(12)|596(4)|615(3)|640(7)|659(5)|678(15)|705(9)|724(4)|751(2)|768(15)|795(3)|816(13)|835(12)|852(5)|863(14)|882(13)|903(3)|920(5)|937(4)|958(6)|979(9)|996(11)|1013(8)|1036(17)|1059(5)|1082(13)|1101(4)|1118(12)|1139(9)|1166(9)|1183(10)|1204(4)|1227(9)|1244(14)|1261(13)|1280(7)|1301(4)|1322(4)|1341(10)|1362(15)|1385(2)|1404(4)|1427(10)|1450(7)|1477(5)|1492(3)|1509(16)|1534(9)|1551(10)|1574(15)|1599(9)|1618(16)|1641(15)|1660(11)|1675(11)|1698(10)|1717(15)|1742(5)|1759(13)|1778(15)|1801(4)|1816(15)|1837(9)|1860(5)|1883(12)|1908(7)|1929(7)|1954(10)|1981(8)|1996(17)|2017(10)|2032(12)|2057(10)|2084(12)|2111(3)|2132(6)|2153(7)|2180(14)|2203(2)|2226(14)|2239(14) 0 https://youtu.be/3SK7Ws54klc YouTube video English 0 Interview Introductions MF: My name is Mary Foltz, and I'm here with Senator Tom Duane to talk about his life and experiences as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. This year our project has funding from ACLS, and Senator Duane and I are meeting on Lehigh's Campus because he came back for the reunion. &#13 ; &#13 ; TD: My first one. 0 129 Transition from City Councilman to State Senator MF: I can also give you digital copies if you wanna share with family, so we'll talk more about that later. So we talked last time, I'm just gonna jump right in about all of your work with city council. And I'm curious if we could move to this sort of transition from city council and your movement into a state Senate. So I'm just gonna start with a basic question, how did that happen? Why were you interested in the Senate? Can you share a little bit of that story? 0 478 Relationship between Democrats and Republicans in Assembly TD: So then Senate majority leader just let it go through, but Senator Bruno, when he became leader, eliminated it, domestic partner benefits. So, I never want to waste an opportunity, I requested that he reinstate it. Because it wasn't just for me, I didn't even have a domestic partner, but the employees, some of whom had already signed up for it, mostly Democrats. I'm not sure about the Republicans at that time, staff members, but it was grotesquely unfair. 0 814 Hate Crimes Legislation TD: Anyway, [coughs] one of the things that had languished in the Senate for a long time was hate crimes legislation. And I believe I talked about my history of -- I had been beaten up in the parking lot of a gay bar. And severely, it was more certainly -- I bruised ribs, bruised a little bit bloody, but the scary thing was I didn't know what they had a weapon or not. And I went to the hospital reported it to police, and they caught the perpetrators. 0 1267 Fighting HIV Misconceptions TD: So before shot person, they had these bills that for -- these past before I got there for police officers, state police, firefighters that if you had to retire because you were ill with AIDS, it was presumed that you got it on the job. Also correctional officers. I think that was the bill where I first it came to the floor. &#13 ; &#13 ; Now these bills had even passed the assembly with Democrats where you would think they would be more enlightened and, it enraged me. And one of the bills said that if someone needed to be transported from a nursing home to a hospital or a hospital to a nursing home. The medical staff from the emergency services were entitled to have the patient tested for HIV and I really couldn't believe it. And actually, this senator was a pretty intelligent senator in this scheme, and I -- so I started debate and I was like what would be different? 0 1873 Work with Incarcerated Individuals / Creating a Rapport with the Other Side of the Aisle TD: So anyway. I've never thought of myself as a very good debater. But I could compete, I found out. And one time there was this bill that said that if someone who – oh they loved incarceration bills. My God, sex offenders, incarceration like all the time. Oh, they had to like -- what else, where else can we put a higher penalty or something, anyway. This bill said that if someone broke parole that they had to no matter what, serve out the entirety of their sentence. &#13 ; &#13 ; And the time, the New York prisons were overcrowded so they were letting people out earlier. People will get out early. If you got a 15 year sentence you could probably get out years before. But if you broke parole you would have to stay. So, I said to the Senate, well how many people would this impact? How many -- well of course he had no idea about that, but he should have. I would have, he had no idea. 0 2165 First Couple of Years in the Senate TD: So, that those first couple of years, a little bit of a blur I guess. And also we, the legislature was always unable to agree on a budget that the governor who then was Governor Pataki, a Republican. They could never agree on a budget. So we would be there all year long at least once a month, we would have to go up for a continuing resolution or sometimes we had to stay for a few days. And in retrospect, I think there was an awful lot of senators that had additional families there. And I think they liked staying there a while longer. 0 2310 September 11th Attack / Primary Day in New York City TD: So, in 2001 was the bombing of the Trade Center and that was in my district, and it was a Democratic primary day in New York City. And I had been out handing out cards for a candidate that I was supporting. And then a little before nine, someone sorta – someone relieved me at that location. &#13 ; &#13 ; So, I went back to my apartment to have a cup of coffee or whatever because she started six in the morning, when the polls open. And I was listening to the radio, and they said the plane had crashed in the trade center. And they said it was must have been just a small plane and then it was, no it’s a huge plane. And then I turned on the TV and so it was happening. And then I had a view ; I could look out my window and see it. And I really don’t quite know how to talk about it. 0 2860 Other Relationships Made during Time in Senate TD: And my district also has this museum, the Intrepid, it's an old battleship. And the executive director, who my gaydar, that meter was went off the rails with him, couldn't go high enough. He offered to me to offer to Senators to take a boat and go down and look at it from the river, so I did that. He was on my grudge list later on for other reasons, he did eventually come out, you're welcome, I'll tell you what it was. 0 3196 Sexual Orientation Nondiscrimination Act (SONDA) TD: So, after my – so our terms are two years. So, my second term, I was determined to get SONDA to pass, which was Sexual Orientation Nondiscrimination Act, I guess ; it was a gay rights bill. And, I was also determined to include gender identity and expression in it and the bill that passed the Assembly for many years, but it never passed the Senate, even without gender identity/expression. 0 3882 Work Improving Women and Children's Welfare TD: But this senator who was the county exec who did lock us all in because I asked that question, not of him, but of another senator. I asked him to come to New York with me. And I wanted to show him, -- Mayor Giuliani had this policy that if you were on public benefits, you had to work. So, there were, especially women with children who were going to school to try to -- because education is key. But maybe they're going to school at Manhattan Community College or Brooklyn Community College. But they were assigned to clean a park in the Bronx, and children go to school and doing it was impossible. It was impossible for them. And it made it so they just couldn't -- 0 4152 Other Work in the Senate TD: So that's the kinda -- those are the – he voted for hate crimes, he didn’t vote for SONDA. I was very upset about that. And then someone said to me, “Well did you ask him?” And I said [laughs] no because I thought -- it never occurred to me that he wouldn't vote for it. His daughter had a huge influence on him, and I don't think he asked her about SONDA, he asked her about hate crimes. He wasn't in office when marriage came up, but he said that she would have like [swipes hand]. 0 4663 Experiences with Addiction TD: I just hesitated because we haven't talked about this, but there's something very personal that happened with me when I went to Albany that I did. You can decide whether or not you want to use it, I'm fine with it. So I'm in recovery from drugs and alcohol for now 39 years, and I have issues of food and money and people. Not gambling except, I have no problem with slot machines or things like that. But anything involving skill, because I'm an ADHD, I would -- if It was poker or 21, I would never leave because I would have to think about it. 0 5138 Fighting against Abuses of Power TD: One of the bills that I fought very hard for was to make it possible for people who had been abused by persons in positions of authority. And this was not popular among my colleagues, and everyone thought it was, there were a lot of people who said, oh you're just anti-catholic. I'm like, no, and this isn't even just about that. It's about boy scout leaders and coaches and the person down the block, this is not particular, it's not not about them. 0 5976 Mental Health Parity (Timothy's Law) TD: So anyway, parity for mental health not to sell this. You know, when you're in the minority, you really have to can't do like a lot of bills. Because when I was in the majority, I just shoveled out bills for two years. I just, I passed more bills in the assembly health committee. So he couldn't get -- he couldn't keep up with me because –“We can’t pass because the Republicans won't do it”. Well, I was literally shoveling out these bills. 0 6208 Closing Remarks / Reflections&#13 ; TD: It was well, you know, well, I -- I went to a reunion. I took a picture of me holding this sign because it was three classes because of the pandemic and I left in ’75. I finished over two of my courses about class of ‘76, but it took me until ‘77 to complete those two courses. 0 MovingImage Thomas Duane recounts his time in the State Senate fighting for legislation like the Sexual Orientation Nondiscrimination Act (SONDA) and Mental Health Parity (Timothy's Law), as well as his personal relationships with HIV and addiction. MARY FOLTZ: My name is Mary Foltz, and I'm here with Senator Tom Duane to talk about his life and experiences as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. This year our project has funding from ACLS, and Senator Duane and I are meeting on Lehigh's Campus because he came back for the reunion. THOMAS DUANE: My first one. MF: For which I'm so happy about, and today is June 12, 2022. So, before we begin the interview, I want to say first thank you for joining me today. And then I just want to go back through some consent questions which you already know, but I'll do them again, so do you consent to this interview today? TD: I do. MF: Do you consent to having the interview transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online and in other formats? TD: I do. MF: Do you consent to the LGBT Community Archive using your interview for educational purposes and other formats, and that could be in articles, on websites, and in presentations? TD: Entertainment too? MF: But you are entertaining. TD: [laughs] Yes, anything, it's an open book, I can send to it all, the only secrets I don't tell are the ones I don't remember. MF: Okay, [laughs] that's probably the same for me. And then do you understand that you'll have 30 days after I give you electronically the transcript of this interview to review it, to identify any parts that you would like to delete, or you could withdraw the whole interview from the project? TD: I wouldn't do that, but I do have to be honest, I did not read the other one yet. So, there's a part of me that's like, oh just let it go, but I responsibly, I probably should read it, so I'm sorry, I haven't done that. MF: You can let it go if you want or review it and just tell me what you wanna do with it. TD: I mean, it's nice to have my own copy of it too so. MF: I can also give you digital copies if you wanna share with family, so we'll talk more about that later. So we talked last time, I'm just gonna jump right in about all of your work with city council. And I'm curious if we could move to this sort of transition from city council and your movement into a state Senate. So I'm just gonna start with a basic question, how did that happen? Why were you interested in the Senate? Can you share a little bit of that story? TD: I had been in the city council for I guess six going on seven years, and my local state senator, a woman named Catherine Abate, was going to give up her seat to run for New York State attorney general. So, there was going to be an open state Senate seat, and it's great that I get to tell my own story. There had been a term limits referendum that won twice in New York City, but I had a few years left that I could have stayed in the city council. So, I just wanna say I did not run for the Senate because term limits were you know, because I love being on the city council, but there was an open state Senate seat. And so much of New York City is controlled by the state. If we passed and this happened -- recently the council passed a plastic bag ban. And because of the rivalry between then Mayor De Blasio and former Governor Cuomo put forward a bag to supersede the city plastic bag ban with different dates, just to, you know. And some of it has always been the case is that way in many states, but some of it was because of the fiscal crisis in the 70s. And at that time, New York City needed the state to help bail them out. Now, the state needs the city to bail it out all the time, but anyway. An open seat and my council district was wholly within it. And people said, why would you ever wanna be in the minority in the Senate, you can't get anything done? And I thought to myself, if you think you can't get anything done, you're not gonna get anything done, and I was like, I'm gonna get stuff done. So, a little outrage in that, right? But I thought that was such a poor attitude, and there had never been an openly gay member of the state Senate. There had been Deborah Glick was in the assembly from 1990, then I got elected in 1990 went to the council, but she was the only out legislator. And I thought it was important to have representation, and I knew that there would be other openly queer people coming into the council very soon, and there's always more work to do. But a number of things which we've talked about had happened and advancement had been made, so I ran for the Senate, and I was unopposed. So that was easy, and I raised money just in case because the best offense is a good defense. And Catherine, the person who I was gonna succeed, she said that they were all asking what's he like? What's he like? Because they knew I had been a member of Act Up, and she said, oh you'll see when he gets there. And so I had to hire staff there. So, I went up a little bit in advance with my then chief of staff to interview people. And there was a state Senator there, who I sort of bumped into as I was, sort of taking a tour around, who didn't wanna shake my hand. Now, it could have been because of HIV. Could also be that he just wasn't a very nice person. He wasn't shaking the hands of Democrats, but it was very off putting, and I was to find out that there was tremendous ignorance about HIV, really shocking. Because I've already sort of gone through it in the city council, and now from 1992, now in 1999 with a whole new group of people, I was gonna have to go through that. And also I'm sure they had all met gay people before, but they weren't on an equal footing, so that was different. And so off I went and I didn't know no better, so I just went. In fact, the first day I was there, I went over to the majority leader, Senator Joe Bruno, and I said, "Hi, I'm Tom Duane a new state Senator succeeding Catherine Abate," And I said "Senator Bruno, I'm hoping that you will restore domestic partner benefits to the state Senate". The reason I had to say that, that I needed to say it was important to say that was that former Governor Mario Cuomo had instituted domestic partnership for all state employees. And because the legislative branch is separate, they can create their own rules. So then Senate majority leader just let it go through, but Senator Bruno, when he became leader, eliminated it, domestic partner benefits. So, I never want to waste an opportunity, I requested that he reinstate it. Because it wasn't just for me, I didn't even have a domestic partner, but the employees, some of whom had already signed up for it, mostly Democrats. I'm not sure about the Republicans at that time, staff members, but it was grotesquely unfair. I think it was very good that I went in without a lot of preconceived notions. Except that I didn't know the Republicans ran the show, but there were some things I was unprepared for. One of them was that the Republicans treated the Democratic senators really badly and under-resourced us, and I could never understand why they were so nasty and mean. And I found -- what I realized was when the Republicans had been in the assembly, they're usually more than 100 Democrats and 50 Republicans. And the Democrats were terrible to the Republicans in the assembly. So the Republican assembly members, their life's ambition was to get into the Senate. And once they got there, they were determined to do back exactly what had been done to them. So I blame the assembly Democrats and their leadership for creating that kind of poisonous atmosphere. And since we have just gone through a new redistricting year in New York State, because the Democrats controlled the assembly, and the Republicans controlled the Senate. Democrats drew their own lines for their assembly districts, Republicans drew their lines. They made them as winnable as possible for their people, both of them. And then they would come together to draw the congressional lines, and they would protect the incumbents. And then there'd be two or three districts where it would be a toss up, where's a fair fight I guess. And the Republicans did everything to stay in power. The way the constitution reads, there's a certain formula by which -- or a range within which the number, the population can be for a Senate district. So many of the Republicans would have say, 270,000 people, I had 330,000 people in my district. So, they made their district smaller, they split up cities, they counted people who were incarcerated in their districts, so that was one of the ways they maintained power. Another way was they flipped Democrats in marginal districts promising them everything. And I was always happy when they lost to tell you the truth because it was greediness that made them, you know. Of course, people want things to resources to come into their district, but I don't think people vote, they should be voting on bringing home the bacon and as it were only. So, the other thing they did was they added an extra seat one year. That must have been the next redistricting year. [laughs] They just added another seat, so they did everything. And when I was still there, six Democrats became independent Democrats, and then started to vote with the Republicans, so they did everything to stay in power. And much later on, I did get to be in the majority for a couple of years, and I treated them like senators. But there was another council member who a couple of years later joined the Senate. We'd been colleagues in the city council he's a conservative Republican, but we liked each other, we worked well together. He wasn't mean to me, I wasn't mean to -- I wasn't mean to anybody by the way, I just found that ridiculous. And another person and I was really -- a Republican that I very much admired that was just a really, really good guy. His name is Senator Ray Meyer, and he represented the Utica area, and he had been a county executive, Oneida County. So, he hadn't been in the assembly, so he didn't have that hatred. And I actually got a bill passed through him. I have to say, when I talk about some of the things that got passed while I was there or maybe some budget things or policy changes. My name was never really on the documents, my name was never the lead sponsor on anything, my name wasn't even on anything. Many things that I fought for would be stuffed into a budget bill or put into some other bill where everything but the kitchen sink was put in there. Because the Republicans did not like the Democrats to ever be able to say I was the lead sponsor on whatever bill it was that was going through. Anyway, [coughs] one of the things that had languished in the Senate for a long time was hate crimes legislation. And I believe I talked about my history of -- I had been beaten up in the parking lot of a gay bar. And severely, it was more certainly -- I bruised ribs, bruised a little bit bloody, but the scary thing was I didn't know what they had a weapon or not. And I went to the hospital reported it to police, and they caught the perpetrators. And a couple weeks later, I called the local police department, and I said, what's happening with my case? And they switched me to the DA's office, and the DA said, they pled out on a misdemeanor. And I was shocked, because I didn't get to confront them, so to speak. And it's not that I wanted them to have a felony, but I wanted to be face-to-face with them. And anyway, so the bill languished for a long time in the legislature because the legislators of color in the assembly and in the Senate, would not remove sexual orientation from the bill. And because of that, the Republicans in the Senate would not pass it. So my first year, 1999, I gave a speech on the floor about what had happened to me and in great detail, which I don't talk about. I was -- this is the Hamptons, which I -- not exactly lovely, but I was visiting someone, it was a Thursday night, we're visiting some people. And I had driven, I probably borrowed a car from my parents or something to a disco as we had then and loud disco as they always are. And there weren't a lot of people there, so the parking lot wasn't very full or anything. But anyway, at a certain point, midnight, 1 o'clock or something, I had decided to leave and I left and I was walking towards my car. And the car pulled up and two of the people got out of the car and they said saying you fag, on and on with epithets, but menacingly. And then they started to hit me, punch me, kick me. And I had some, I guess training about this, I was afraid if I fought back, well maybe they'd pull out a knife or a gun then. So I protected my head as best as I could and I started yelling, but the music was so loud, no one inside could hear. And so they continued to do until someone finally came out and then they ran back to the car and they drove away. And, I was so upset, not only because I didn't get to confront them, but it was as if it never happened, because the state didn't collect data on hate crimes. And that's all I wanted, because I don't think you can really fight. I hate to say hate, because I don't think, the opposite of love isn't necessarily hate at all. But ignorance and intolerance and I guess an entitlement to beat up people that are different than you, or be violent towards them. Boy, think about the gun violence perpetrated today. But anyway, I gave a very, very impassioned speech on the floor about what had happened to me. And it was a really good speech, if I must say so myself, because I pulled it out. Anyway, there weren't cameras in those days in the Legislature. They didn't want cameras. So it's probably a transcript of it. But I say that they were in the City Council there's any film of me making these speeches that I made that were Tom Duane speeches, I call them. But a couple of the senators wept. There was a very conservative Republican senator, an older man who stood up and said we must do something about this. He voted against the bill, when it came up by the way. But in the moment, he was moved by it. And the next year and I think because I was on it, the legislation passed. It didn't have, I was not, my name wasn't anywhere on it, but your name doesn't have to be on something to be associated with something. And really whoever fights the hardest for something, I think is the person who's you know -- the legislation, if you passed the bill in, your name was the first name on the bill, you got a -- and the governor signed it, you would get this sort of frame thing. It was like a diorama of the signature of the governor, the bill, and then a fancy pen and it's framed with glass. It's like a box, and there would be legislators who had them all over their offices. Honestly, I mean, I really didn't care about that at all. I just wanted the bills passed, which was just funny. I'm happy for people that, -- and I'm saying this sincerely that it was something that they were proud of. And so they could hang up something that was, but people couldn't understand why I didn't care about that. So anyway, my name wasn't on it, but it passed. And it was interpreted to include gender identity and expression, fortunately because I hadn't written the bill. I had my own version of a bill, but that wasn't the one that got passed. And the only way the Republicans would pass it was if it increased penalties. And I again, that was not that important to me at all. But if it helps to get it passed then good. But it made the state division of criminal justice keep statistics on hate crimes from around the state. So I was very happy that, that was the case. And that was in my first two-year term in 2000. And, The other thing that happened before I got there-- [coughs] [coughs] This is allergies not COVID. [laughs] [coughs] Snapshot in time. So before shot person, they had these bills that for -- these past before I got there for police officers, state police firefighters that if you had to retire because you were ill with AIDS, it was presumed that you got it on the job. Also correctional officers. I think that was the bill where I first it came to the floor. Now these bills had even passed the assembly with Democrats where you would think they would be more enlightened and, it enraged me. And one of the bills said that if someone needed to be transported from a nursing home to a hospital or a hospital to a nursing home. The medical staff from the emergency services were entitled to have the patient tested for HIV and I really couldn't believe it. And actually, this senator was a pretty intelligent senator in this scheme, and I -- so I started debate and I was like what would be different? Like what would be different, would you ever go to a dentist that didn't wear? This is pre-AIDS, where they didn't wear protective gear. Would you ever be in a hospital where someone was not wearing a mask and washing their hands? I mean ridiculous. AIDS, HIV doesn't spread like that. And at one point you have to stand behind your seat, and you have to talk to the president of the Senate to keep everything civil. So through you Mr. President if I could ask the sponsor -- anyway. But at one point I moved over to hold the hand of another state Senator. And then when I reached for her hand, I moved away from my seat. And they started an -- arms started to come forward because they thought I was gonna hit the Senator whose bill it was, which I would never have done. But I didn't mind that they thought that, in fact the leader of the Democrats said, "oh yeah, Duane took out a couple of people when he was in the council". But I also, and I said this, this is I think what stopped these dreadful bills from happening. I said according to the New York State Department Health AIDS Institute there are only four ways that you can get HIV. Breast feeding, blood transfusions, sharing needles with an injection drug user, or unprotected oral, vaginal, or anal sex. And I think I was probably the first person to say something like that on the floor of the Senate. And the bills passed anyway, but eventually they stopped bringing these bills forward. I don't think they really understood, they just didn't want me to say that anymore. [laughs] I really think that's what it was, because they knew it was coming any time these bills came to the floor in the Senate. In fact, when I left I said and I just want to say one last time [LAUGH]. I got that unprotected oral, vaginal, or anal sex, again, unprotected -- anyway. This is 1999, 2000. And these bills were passing. And because I kind of made fun of these bills, there are other bills that unions wanted. It was sort of like a free giveaway to their members that wasn't getting an increase in their wages or other benefits, but sort of a freebie benefit that it would be presumed that you got HIV on the job. So their unions that came forward that were like the City University of New York guards, or taxi inspectors. And I shouldn't have, -- I wasn't making light of the professions or I was just pointing out how ridiculous this was. And it was particularly ridiculous, because I had fought to get the division of AIDS services bill passed. These bills made it so that if you retired because you had AIDS, you got to kept making three quarters of your salary and got your benefits etc etc. So which I'm in favor of, of course I'm in favor of that. By the way, no police officer, firefighter, or correction officer ever had AIDS. At least they didn't claim they did. So, but it was a benefit of throw away. And so I actually almost had a primary based on my questioning why a taxi inspector or college security officer would need to, why would we presumed that they got AIDS on the job. And because it implies you can get it through the air. And in New York and other places, people who, like someone who was in a correctional facility, if they spit at a correction officer, the correction officer was entitled to have that incarcerated person tested for HIV. And it didn't even actually have to be in the correctional facilities. It could happen just when you were with law enforcement in the outside world. That was something that people went to jail for that. For spitting or just absurd. But then at least this was, -- well I'm just thinking back on that. It was so shocking to me that people didn't get that in 1999 and 2000 that you couldn't casually contract HIV. Anyway, the candidate who was being put up against me didn't qualify for the ballot. So, I end up not having a primary and we became friendly. And I made peace with the union. I explained to them, look, I just think you need to prove that you got it on the job, then I'm fine with it. But I would say, what is the taxis, are they breastfeeding? Are they sharing needles? Are they having unprotected oral, vaginal, or anal sex? Like, what is in their job description is there that would make it so that they would contract HIV? I did eventually do a bill that was sort of an omnibus bill that said that, in order to get the benefit, you had to get basically a note from your doctor, that you got it on the job. Which maybe if you were a nurse or a doctor or a physician's assistant, in a commercial facility maybe, but still very unlikely. So, and then the other thing I did was I introduced a bill that said that if there's some sort of a dust up between incarcerated person and a correction officer that the incarcerated person was entitled to have the correction officer tested. Which of course was not in favor of either, was to make the point of how absurd it was. But I just, I remember saying that that bill got the emergency, I was like what would be different, what would be different? I mean, I could sort of understand if you would want to know before, though that's ridiculous also. Because you should always be wearing protective gear and people were already transporting people with HIV all over the place, all the time. Maybe that would make a little bit sense. But after the fact, and this was to come up again, by the way, in a sexual assault. If someone was accused of a sexual assault, they were subjected to mandatory testing. And first of all it's wrong because innocent till proven guilty. But also what you would immediately have to do is to give the person who's been assaulted the prophylactic drugs right away. Before you would even have the results of the test, that was the most important thing. And I did later on, as part of HIV/AIDS bill, get in that the state would pay for that. Because prior the victim would have to pay to have their prophylactic treatment and their testing being done. So it was just very very illogical, their approach and of course it also criminalized people with HIV. And in the same way that incarceration is not treated appropriately as often a mental health issue, they were mistreating HIV as well. And I hope they weren't doing it just to pander but I also hope or wish that they knew better. So anyway. I've never thought of myself as a very good debater. But I could compete, I found out. And one time there was this bill that said that if someone who -- oh they loved incarceration bills. My God, sex offenders, incarceration like all the time. Oh, they had to like -- what else, where else can we put a higher penalty or something, anyway. This bill said that if someone broke parole that they had to no matter what, serve out the entirety of their sentence. And the time, the New York prisons were overcrowded so they were letting people out earlier. People will get out early. If you got a 15 year sentence you could probably get out years before. But if you broke parole you would have to stay. So, I said to the Senate, well how many people would this impact? How many -- well of course he had no idea about that, but he should have. I would have, he had no idea. So, the senator that I like so much was actually the acting as the president of the Senate and he banged his gavel down. And he said we're locking the doors. He said we were all being punished. And we all had to stay locked in this [laughs] chamber and if you wanted to go to the bathroom you were escorted by a sergeant at arms. And I would like to be remembered as the person that made them close the doors. But I was remembered for asking if I could choose which sergeant would accompany me [laughs] the bathroom. I just didn't know that something -- in my -- as an elected official I have some, in that role I have some control over my blurting. But sometimes it just gets away [laughs]. So that got in the papers. Listen to me still now, I'm like [sighs deeply]. Like I -- But something else interesting happened with Senator Joe Bruno who changed rather dramatically. While I was there, but he liked me in the same way that Peter Vallone, and the council of conservative Catholic elected official maybe open their eyes. And one time he called me into his office and he said you're pretty smart, but sometimes your tongue is a little sharp. Because I would ask senators questions, Republican senators questions about their bills and they were so used to not being challenged and they were all one house bills or mostly of one house bills. So, they didn't pass the assembly, but they were so used to not having questions asked. They usually couldn't answer my questions and I was prepared for every bill that came up on the agenda with lots of questions, especially when I was gonna vote against it. And so he said your tongue is a little sharp, and what he was saying was "Don't make my guys look stupid". That's mean, he didn't say that's mean, but I have said that is being mean. So from then on -- by the way none of the Democrats picked up on this. They continued their questioning, I just would stand up and I would speak on the bill. I would just list all the reasons why I was opposed to it. I would -- I guess RBG, not that I'm comparing myself, but she always said that she would start off with what she thought the other side would say when arguing a case. And she would answer those questions first. So that's kinda what I did was I answered my own questions, that either would have tripped up the Republicans or would have maybe pointed out the absurdity of it. And I -- so I just spoke, but in a very polite manner. And then my relationship with the Republicans became much much much better. And so he gave me very good advice and I was very fond of him. Even though I believe he tried to entrap me later on, when he was in trouble with the feds over something. But he was senator of his word. And if he couldn't do something, he would say it's just not the time. But he would tell me he was honest about that and I appreciated that. So, that those first couple of years, a little bit of a blur I guess. And also we, the legislature was always unable to agree on a budget that the governor who then was Governor Pataki, a Republican. They could never agree on a budget. So we would be there all year long at least once a month, we would have to go up for a continuing resolution or sometimes we had to stay for a few days. And in retrospect, I think there was an awful lot of senators that had additional families there. And I think they liked staying there a while longer. And I also think that people that came from underserved neighborhoods, food deserts, etc. That they got some extra time than to do shopping and all that because I did. I bought my toilet paper and paper towels and because it was cheaper than Manhattan. Remember one time pulling -- I had a shopping cart in the trunk of my car and a senator said, "why do you have that shopping cart?" and I wanted to say to him "because I'm smart". But I explained to why I had it, so that I could buy bulk items more inexpensively not at Walmarts, but I did go to Kmarts and Targets. There was a huge target in Saratoga, it was like a Super Target. And unlike in New York City, everything's always picked over, the shelves were always full and pristine. I had to -- I was not chasing interns around their desk. And I was also unfortunately eating at receptions and then eating also. So I started to gain weight, which made me unhappy and I look -- and my exercise, it just disappeared. I just, worked all the time, and when I didn't work, I once a month I would go to Target once a month, TJ Maxx once a month or have to [laughs] parcel it out for these little adventures. And living like an American, unlike a New York City person. You know with cars, you throw it in the trunk ; I lived in my car. I still have that habit, snacks, beverages [laughs] in my car, an extra toothbrush, anyway. But we were there all year long. So, in 2001 was the bombing of the Trade Center and that was in my district, and it was a Democratic primary day in New York City. And I had been out handing out cards for a candidate that I was supporting. And then a little before nine, someone sorta -- someone relieved me at that location. So, I went back to my apartment to have a cup of coffee or whatever because she started six in the morning, when the polls open. And I was listening to the radio, and they said the plane had crashed in the Trade Center. And they said it was must have been just a small plane and then it was, no it's a huge plane. And then I turned on the TV and so it was happening. And then I had a view ; I could look out my window and see it. And I really don't quite know how to talk about it. And New Yorkers, you -- the only time we really talk about it is right around 9/11. Even though we all experienced it and it was terrible. I didn't know a lot of people that worked there. They're mostly people in financial services who lived in the suburbs, but I knew some of the law enforcement people. Some of my local firefighters, I knew Father Michael, who is sorta famous. Who was the chaplain to the firefighters, and gay. And probably should be canonized. There's a movement, but they probably won't because he was gay. He's a lovely man. I remember, you know I was in Chelsea, but at a certain point I saw the second tower go down. I was still in my apartment, but then I went out on the street and there were people just covered with 9/11 dust and there were phone booths or street phones in those days. There was no cell service because they were just too jammed or, so people were waiting [in] line to call their families to see that they were alive. One of the things that I did at one point was, and I don't know how we did it, but I got the other elected officials, we came together, we tried to reach out to as many people as we knew who lived down in Tribeca and Battery Park City in the financial district. And we, we sorta made a gathering in a city owned park. It was asphalt or basketball courts just above Canal Street. And it was very moving, because that was the first time that a lot of these people saw each other. And I guess it was a week later. Time is very-- I remember in the way day by day. In retrospect I wish kept a diary. But earlier the sound of the sirens. Of course there were no survivors. So there was but the police sirens and ambulances, fire trucks and just went on and on and they were posters up all over, just 8.5 by 11 printed out sheets. Have you seen this person all over Lower Manhattan? All over the Village, all over Chelsea? Have you seen this person? This person. It was really, really heartbreaking. I had, I would call a particular cousin of mine who lived in New Jersey. And she and her husband knew people in the Trade Center and asked me if I could help to find them, it was not finding anyone. And I heard an NPR announcer on the radio say a couple days later, she said it's another achingly beautiful day in New York City. Because it was every day was bright and sunny and cool and beautiful New York City days. And this terrible smell of this thing that was burning. And I went down there. And there were people, -- the Trade Center was so huge that the firefighters are just volunteers who were like digging through the rubble. They almost look like ants on an ant hill. That's how huge the footprint was, of how this had happened. And you could see, the particles in the air. And anyway I didn't -- it was a very stressful time. And we were called back to Albany. We hadn't done a budget yet. We didn't do a budget at all that year. We never got a budget done at all, kept going back all the time. But the first time, yeah, we went back in the same way that the US Congress passed the Patriot Act bills that only Barbara from the San Francisco area, for the Bay Area, Barbara Lee voted against them. We have been seeing similar kind of bills like roving wiretaps and I voted against all of them. I was the only one that voted against all them, a couple people had voted against like one or two of the bills. But I really, -- why are we restricting our freedom when allegedly what everyone is saying they hate us because we were a democracy and freedom. Which is debatable also, but why are we passing those to restrict people's rights? And the minority leader of the Senate made a speech about how the Trade Center was in his district and I know this isn't a -- yeah, not a big deal, but he did used to represent it, but in a redistricting year and the democratic leader, got to choose their own leader, their own district. Everybody else was just whatever the republicans gave them. So he had opted to not have the Trade Center to have more of Brooklyn in his district. And I was really furious about that, you could say I used to, I know people -- whatever and I was just shocked. And I didn't say anything, but I did lose my temper with him after. Ordinarily I wouldn't lose my temper about something like that, but it was a very difficult time and that primary day was canceled. The canidate I was supporting who had the momentum would have won the council seat and ended up not winning when they voted again. But the smell was still going on. That primary day, it was raining and, and so the smell was still there, but it was different. And I remember someone on his palm card, he was saying to me, can't you do something about that smell? And I was like, no I can't do anything about that. I was gonna say something else I think about the whole, that it was on primary day and so I ended up voting for the primary day that didn't count. The one that did count, then there was a runoff. I voted a lot that year, but we also went to Albany a lot that year, as I say, we never passed another budget. So, we just worked off the budget from the year before. And my district also has this museum, the Intrepid, it's an old battleship. And the executive director, who my gaydar, that meter was went off the rails with him, couldn't go high enough. He offered to me to offer to Senators to take a boat and go down and look at it from the river, so I did that. He was on my grudge list later on for other reasons, he did eventually come out, you're welcome, I'll tell you what it was. I think let's, we'll take a moment from the heaviness and I'll tell a lighter story, so he came out eventually. And, when Governor Paterson stepped in, when Governor Spitzer stepped down, there was an email exchange between Governor Paterson and this guy where he said, "I'll do everything, anything I can to help you, especially if you end up running against Andrew Cuomo," and he said, "because I'm a gay and I can be helpful and I'm a gay, but I'm not a gay like Tom Duane". Not a gay like Tom Duane. And I said, I have that, he deleted it. Probably not because of the, "I'm not a gay like Tom Duane," probably because it was an anti-Cuomo thing, and little did he know that actually Andrew Cuomo at some point just started to completely control what Governor Paterson, the worst governor New York City has ever had, was doing. So anyway, I'm not a gay like Tom Duane. And because I was a Senator, when marriage passed, because of my involvement, I got invited to some classy weddings. And I went to a couple of them, but I was invited to his wedding and I did not attend and I did not send a gift. And the other thing about him was that, I had a bad feeling when Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton were running for president and people would say to me, "Well you don't think Donald Trump could really win," and I would be like "I -- yeah, no I do," but people would freak out. So, I stopped saying it and I just said. [shurgs] But he was every news, TV news thing led off with him, every newspaper, there was something about him on the front page. And he was, as the president of Viacom said, he was paid a lot of money for the networks and for you know. And Americans are very -- I would say you know, TV is the beginning of social media and its evils. Because and especially by then there were all these other news stations that people were watching. But I was invited to her victory party which was very close to where I lived. It was at the New York convention center, and I lived just a few blocks from there and I didn't go, I just had a bad feeling. With the point of the story is, so this newly married couple were at Hillary's headquarters, when they realized that she lost, they walked over to the Trump headquarters and said whatever you want. And they got stuff. And a little later on I was walking down my block and it was fairly quiet day and they lived in a loft building just a half a block away from me. And there were all these cars parked, all these secret service looking and police cars, and I realized that they must be having some sort of a party or something. They were having a party for this Ambassador Grenell that was appointed one of the only openly gay people in Trump administration. Who was just a right wing, like he was sent to Germany too. Where he loved, the President of Austria. Loved all these despots and he was our-- Angela Merkel was like the beacon of the free world at the time, and that's where they sent him. So they were having a party for him. That's another point of that story. Maybe we'll come back to 9/11, but I am very upset still about those bills that got passed because they can be so misused. And we see on the federal level, I mean that everyone gets to see that. Everyone gets to see how those laws have been just used to do terrible things, and to really take away civil liberties. That the president can say we're at war without even going to Congress, if the president wants to. Unheard of in our democracy. So, after my -- so our terms are two years. So, my second term, I was determined to get SONDA to pass, which was Sexual Orientation Nondiscrimination Act, I guess ; it was a gay rights bill. And, I was also determined to include gender identity and expression in it and the bill that passed the Assembly for many years, but it never passed the Senate, even without gender identity/expression. So, the assembly built didn't have that wording in it, and this is a case where money is poisoned politics. A lot of wealthy, New York, white guys started spreading money around. They made a deal with Governor Pataki that they would make no endorsement in the gubernatorial race if he would be supportive of SONDA passing. I guess Joe Bruno was on board. By the way, in the meantime, I got to meet and became a little bit friendly with Joe Bruno's gay brother. And, later on I did a couple of things where they weren't really getting along and I got them, I put -- got them sort of back together, speaking with each other. But I -- my bill included gender identity/expression. The bill that moved through the Assembly, that landed in the Senate did not have that in it. And I believed that the bill could pass that would not make any difference, if it includes gender identity, no vote, not one vote would change. Mostly people wouldn't even notice it was in there and if they did, they were gonna and there were no voters they were voting no anyway. And the yes people were not gonna not vote for it because it was in there. So I was very upset, and I went to Joe Bruno and I said we need to put this in because if we don't put it in, it's gonna be a decade before it can't -- it won't go on its own. And he said to me you have a point there and I think he would have done it. But these rich guys were too afraid that it might not pass, they didn't wanna have to, the assembly, have to pass the bill again with extra language in it. And so I put an amendment on the floor when the bill came up, something else terrible had happened. No, no, what is it? Well, but he was not a party, I'm telling you. I was playing chicken with the bill. I wouldn't commit to supporting it if it didn't include gender identity and expression, which is not. And Marty Connor, who had been our leader, was dethroned and David Paterson became the new minority leader and these three gay men asked if I would sort of make an introduction to him officially. And one of them was something I've known for many years. It had not been a perfect relationship, it was a political relationship. He represented real estate interests, but he also helped a lot of queer organizations. Then there was the head of the statewide LGBT Organization, it took me a minute to think of it. It's not just [inaudible], but I blocked it out, The Pride Agenda, it was called The Pride Agenda. It was -- I think they had like used a brand or something to come up with that name so that--anyway, just put the initials in. But anyway, The Pride Agenda. The head of The Pride Agenda and this other wealthy gay man, and on the way up, Ethan said to me, "Well, but if the bill comes up, will you vote for it?" I said, "Of course I'll vote for it, of course I will". And one of them went to the press to the New York Times and they called me and asked me, so it made me look like a liar. I was so upset, like why did they do --? It was terrible, I was very -- I knew it was a tactic, Of course I would vote for it, but I did put an amendment on the floor. Most of the democrats voted for it, but I was very angry. I knew it was going to pass anyway, there was no, it was going to pass. The deal had been made, the deal had been cut. So I said, I think some angry words about people that didn't wanna put gender identity and expression. And when the celebration afterwards, there were some people that wouldn't shake my hand, you know congratula -- Mind you, I was the one that you know -- I was the only Sen -- I like -- hate crimes. My name was not on the bill, but there was no doubt, that I was pushing it the force behind it, yeah, other people wanted it, but I was annoying about it. And then one of them started to call my campaign donors and told them not to give me money anymore. It's all right, there were enough people in the world that I could raise enough money to keep going. But I just thought that was -- because for as long as I can remember, I had been, I'm passionate about the rights of people who we would, now say non-binary, regardless of their gender identity/expression. It was just something I always, I don't know I can't imagine any other -- feeling any other way. And so I was really upset. It took 20 years, not 10 years. It took 20 years to get it passed. And there was something wonderful that happened. I was out of the Senate, and it got passed when Governor Cuomo was governor and he was signing at the LGBT center. And I had stuff with Governor Cuomo prior to this which I'll probably talk to you about. A lot because he broke my heart. Anyway the Executive Director Glenda Tessa, who I love, of the center was making introduction to assembly members. And senator so and so, and council member, borough president. And then our own former New York State Senator Tom Duane and they're like, [inaudible] gave me a standing ovation. And even though I couldn't get it passed, they knew how much I fought to try to make it happen. I'm very grateful for that. All right let's move out of this. So then when the governor with whom I'd had stuff with and had not spoken to me at all for years, he saw the reaction so he couldn't not say something. So he said "I know Tom Duane. We go way back, you know my father had AIDS." and I thought -- because I'll tell you there'll be more -- this big relationship, and non-relationship with Andrew Cuomo and I was a supporter of his father's. What about us? But anyway when they do the ceremony thing and he does a letter. And he gives a pen away as he's signing his name and somebody go up there and get a pen. So I went up and I got a pen from him and as I was walking away, he turned and he said, "Are we okay?" I said "Yes governor, we're okay". I had to forgive him. I didn't know about all the stuff that was to come out afterwards. But at that time, I forgave him for the way he had treated me really after marriage passed in New York. But sometimes say for some elected officials, it's just business and I know that and I wouldn't take things personally. But I work better with people that had a core, even if they were for the death penalty or they're anti. If this was something, well then we could talk about it. But if someone's just doing it because they were pandering or afraid for their district. They're not gonna change their mind if they already know better. The fact when marriage passed, there were many Republicans hugging and kissing me who hadn't voted for because they were afraid to. But they were so happy that it passed. And so a whole other story with the governor to wanting to make the 11 o'clock news. I kinda have lost my place in the world now. SONDA, everyone mad at me. You know later on when I was in the majority I passed our safe schools act. It was called the Dignity for All Students Act which I couldn't get passed when I was in the minority unfortunately. But it included gender identity and expression, and no one said a word about it. The couple of people who were voting against it were voting against it anyway. And just to prove my point that it really -- not a story except for the people who were impacted or wouldn't be held by anyway. So my second term was SONDA. Now it sounds like that's all, [laughs] I didn't only do queer stuff. I did a lot of other stuff too. I used to say I spent 85% of my time doing you know, when I get 15% of press for it. The 15%, I just spend it on queer stuff. I get 85% [laughs] of my press on that. But this senator who was the county exec who did lock us all in because I asked that question, not of him, but of another senator. I asked him to come to New York with me. And I wanted to show him, -- Mayor Giuliani had this policy that if you were on public benefits, you had to work. So, there were, especially women with children who were going to school to try to -- because education is key. But maybe they're going to school at Manhattan Community College or Brooklyn Community College. But they were assigned to clean a park in the Bronx, and children go to school and doing it was impossible. It was impossible for them. And it made it so they just couldn't -- I used to see women they jump, they run into McDonald's on the way to their classes at Manhattan Community College. And I guess they must have asked a family member to watch their children or something like that. So, how anxious they were to have a better life. But there was a program -- so Mayor Giuliani said they have to go work in par -- not even with working in parks or anything of course. But not because you're poor and you need money to get by on. And mothers would make the best choice. Sometimes they wouldn't make money so they could keep the whole family on Medicaid. Otherwise, they would lose their benefits, they'd lose their food stamps, they'd lose their rental assistance. So they were kinda trapped. But going to school, which is work would not have threatened their remaining having benefits for the family while they went to school. Anyway, I asked Senator Mayer to come to New York because I knew he would understand this. And I brought him to -- there's a group at Hunter College Welfare Rights [Initiative] that really got me engaged in this issue. So we visited with them, we went to Bronx Community College, we went to Hunter, we went to private university as well. And also, we had a meeting with this group called the New York [City] Partnership which is the umbrella group for New York business people. And he was very engaged in what was going on and what people were saying. And when we met with the partnership people, they said look, nothing wrong with cleaning parks, but work study and internship is giving people skills for jobs that we actually have and wanna fill. So, they were very supportive of it. And I remember Senator Mayer saying, are these real jobs? And they are real jobs. They got real jobs, challenging jobs, important jobs. But work that does help to move along in your work life and your career. And he said at what point, "Well aren't we like giving them an extra advantage? What about Joe at the gas station?" Well Joe he can go to community college that's-- but we're making it impossible. So he said, so are we giving this special treatment? I said no we're just not holding them back. And it was like a light, and then he really really got it. And he liked it so much that he started a program up in his district, up in Oneida. And I met the people who were running it and of course they were lesbians. I don't know if he knew [laughs] but yeah, my gaydar was off the charts. But that was thrilling that he liked it so much and he believed. So he was a conservative Republican, but he believed that government actually could help people because he was county exec. Not a mistreated Republican assembly member and he brought it to his county because it really helped people. So that's the kinda -- those are the -- he voted for hate crimes, he didn't vote for SONDA. I was very upset about that. And then someone said to me, "Well did you ask him?" And I said [laughs] no because I thought -- it never occurred to me that he wouldn't vote for it. His daughter had a huge influence on him, and I don't think he asked her about SONDA, he asked her about hate crimes. He wasn't in office when marriage came up, but he said that she would have like [swipes hand]. But there's a whole story about who convinced senators to vote for marriage. And often times it was the spouse, and the family, the kids. In fact, there was this show on Showtime about first ladies and for years and years I said to people -- because Barack Obama, he was in favor of marriage equality when he was a Senate, state senator in Illinois. He checked the box with the gay organization you know, the political group asked a question. But then he backed off when he was running for president. But I said, I'm sure there was some morning when Michelle said "Barack, me and Malia and Sasha. We are not gonna talk to you until you come out in favor of this and on this." You know it's fiction. But it's a very similar saying that it's exactly the way it was with Michelle Obama saying, one of the kids, you know. Not understanding, how could you not vote for civil rights. How could you not be for this? It was a very similar situation. So I know what's going on the White House and I always thought Joe Brun -- I'm sorry, Joe Biden just blurted out that he was for marriage. This television fictional makes it seem as if he was sort of-- that Michelle went to him and asked him to do it. Who knows what really happened. Anyway. Because who doesn't love Michelle Obama, who would never run for president, but I would vote for her in a heartbeat. After 9/11, similar to how veterans got special benefits in New York State, different tax breaks. And also, the spouses of police officers and firefighters who died in the line of duty. I'm applying men, mostly men. That a whole other story of women fighting to get into the fire department particularly. But there are a lot of bills that gave benefits to spouses. And the senator who was the chair of the committee, was the codes committee, that the bills would go through before they came to the floor. He was very conservative. He was very much in favor of the death penalty. I believe he was a former state trooper, and he was a lovely man, and a gentleman, and would listen to critique. So, for instance, there'd be a bill about something having to do with sexual assault, but it never made it never made a differentiation. That's not the right word, but. An 18 year old, and a 16 year old or a 15 year old, is different than a 40 year old, and a 13 year old, but the laws never would make any -- there was no delineating in any way. And when I raised that with him, he -- it gave him pause for thought, and he started to modify the bills a little bit when he could. So, I was happy about that because I knew kids, you know, [inaudible] kids that -- stories like -- this one boy was having a relationship with another boy who was -- one was 18, the other one was 15, lived with his grandmother and his grandmother turned in the 18 year old. He went to Rikers, he went to serve time and get on the sex offenders list. And the level of the sex offender list that you get with the 1, 2, or 3, it depends on how much money you have and what lawyer you have. There is no -- and in New York City, it's impossible to not live near a school, it's impossible. And they're not allowed to live in public housing. And believe me, I do know something about sex offenders and some can go into remission and not reoffend, but you kind of never know. So, a sex offender should never be in a room with a child alone ever. And if they are then it's trouble. But there are ways that people can not reoffend. In fact, I visited a New York State correctional facilities where they had a program for sex offenders. And I was very prepared to think it was not going to be a good program. And in this particular facility, which was run by a woman, it was in Oneida actually, was really, really good. And I got to see the men who first arrived and first started the program and the denial they had about what their offense had been. And then I got to see a group that was ready to finish, and about how they took responsibility for what they had done and new tools to use to help them to not reoffend. But they were all concerned about getting jobs and a place to live when they got out. And the other interesting thing was none of them were victimized when they went back into general population and their other facilities if they had been through this program. There was another program which I didn't get to visit, which I heard wasn't that good, but I was very, very impressed. And it's an area that I know about, and I'll probably talk about. The other thing that I did was I would vote for these bills that gave benefits to the spouses of people who were killed in 9/11 [coughs]. And now of course it's also people, the long term effects of the spouses. But I said, look, I'm voting for the bill, but next year could you add domestic partner in? And he said yes, just don't tell anyone else. I was like fine with me. So there are a lot of things that I made no noise about, but I just got it done. I mean, they had money for HIV/AIDS that came from the federal government. They don't know what to do with it, so they would give it to me to help them to give it around the state where I knew groups, but they would give me money to give away. So, I recall when I say, "Someone is gonna call you and they're gonna tell you how to get $100,000. It's gonna come to you from the state, but do not thank me, just do whatever they say". The Republi -- really all but one liked me, but nobody liked him either. And anyway, so I was able to do things quietly and that was fine. I just wanted to get things done. And by the way, the SONDA, the gay rights bill, my name was not on that bill. It wasn't my bill, but a Republican was the lead sponser. There were no Democrats on the bill. It was always given to a moderate Republican to make them seem moderate, that they with the lead sponsor of these bills. Didn't always help them, but just a funny way to do business, very un-senatorial. I just hesitated because we haven't talked about this, but there's something very personal that happened with me when I went to Albany that I did. You can decide whether or not you want to use it, I'm fine with it. So I'm in recovery from drugs and alcohol for now 39 years, and I have issues of food and money and people. Not gambling except, I have no problem with slot machines or things like that. But anything involving skill, because I'm an ADHD, I would -- if It was poker or 21, I would never leave because I would have to think about it. And I know that because I'd never been to the track before, and Saratoga is a big, you know. They have trotters and we all went on a trip there all the senators and a couple of them knew how to read the score cards. What race is the horse in, they knew who the jockey was, what was the place where they had competed before. And they explained it all to me and I went and I bet and I won, I won and I won, and I placed and I won and I won. I was anxious they weren't gonna get -- because they came to the tables that they were going to get there in time and I didn't want to leave. And as I went out I said, I must never come here again [laughs]. So gambling fortunately, I mean there's no skill involved buying lottery tickets fortunately [laughs]. I guess they share their strategies with those cards to see whether or not they won or not. Anyway, I am also a recovering sex addict, sex and love addict, romantic obsessive, but I'm a garden variety sex addict. When I got elected to the Senate, I said to myself, I don't want to take this with me, I don't want to take this with me. And so I went to a five day outpatient program and I learned a lot, and was able to not completely recover, but it was, let's say harm reduction was much better night, so to go to 12 step meetings. And then I went to, it was my first week in Albany, my staff person, my counsel Mark, who I just love and miss. So, the first week I have to say, I won't be here next week because I'm going to a five day workshop on sex addiction because I'm a sex addict. Anyway, yeah, he went along fine. But that summer, that September, I went to a two week program in Los Angeles and when I finished that program, I never -- I've been sexually sober since then. And sometimes with anorexia, they went from being not an anorexic to being anorexic. But the people at this place when I was talking about what happened in the correctional facility. The place that I went to, they had all trained in the hospital in California called Delano. And there are two tracks in Delano, one was for sex offenders, and one was for garden variety. And at one point they just said, "We're only gonna do sex offenders, so the garden variety people had to go someplace else". And so they started this institute where they also trained therapists, so that's where I went. But they were very tough, you had to say the things that -- I mean, I did not -- my behaviors were not particularly offender behavior. I did have sex with people, but I always used condoms, which of course laws often don't differentiate between [inaudible]. But I was very rigidly since 1983 about safe sex with anyone I had sex with. Anyway, one of the groups, there were just three of us. They were very small, and the place was just starting out, so it was affordable. But there was a man there who molested some of his children and some of his grandchildren. And I have a history of abuse in my family. And he got to hear from me, the impact it had on me, but I also heard his story and his grandfather had molested him. So hopefully he would break the chain, anyway. But the good thing was I was in Albany and I would go to anonymous drugs and alcohol meetings, and I would go to anonymous help group, to help, to say recovery from my sex addiction. And they didn't know who I was, which was great because most of the meetings in New York City, many of them are at the center where people would-- So I was anonymous and it was great. It wasn't until much later on that they found out. And being a senator from Upstate is a much bigger thing than New York City because they would say, "You're a senator like Joe Bruno?" But anyway, they did not know, and I didn't say what I did for work and it was great. The good thing about going to this place was when I left there, the shame that I'd been feeling my whole life lifted, and I realized that I had been living my whole life with carrying this burden of shame that I didn't realize I had until I didn't have it. So right now what's happening is I'm feeling shame because I'm talking about this at all. There's nothing to be ashamed of, there's no reason, but it's a physical thing, it starts here goes up and my face turns a little bit red, and I can feel that I'm having a shame attack, but there's nothing I said to be -- and I'm glad I know that so I'm not carrying that burden. It was such a great burden to be able to unload, you know because-- anyway. So that's why I -- when I went to the correction facility with the people that had been offenders, I kind of had a lot of knowledge about it. It became very -- actually, I thought I might go into the field when I left office. I haven't, but I might still someday. But anyway, it was a great place to recover. And then when I was in New York City I didn't care who saw me go into whatever room. If they saw me they saw me, they didn't, you know what I mean, maybe it was meant to be that way and it's a disease. And I don't know why I was too ashamed to go for such a long time and I was in other groups where people are anonymous. So, I mean who else is there, the same anonymous people. Who are they going to say -- So I don't know why I wasn't able to do it sooner, but I was able to do it when I was able to do it, and I was very glad about that. One of the bills that I fought very hard for was to make it possible for people who had been abused by persons in positions of authority. And this was not popular among my colleagues, and everyone thought it was, there were a lot of people who said, oh you're just anti catholic. I'm like, no, and this isn't even just about that. It's about boy scout leaders and coaches and the person down the block, this is not particular, it's not not about them. I think it does make you crazy and saying, Well, this has bankrupted a lot of diocese. No, they go into bankruptcy on purpose to delay having to give depositions and things. It's a tactic, they transfer the money to a high school or a cemetery, that's how they say it's their bankrupt. They don't go bankrupt because they're paying anything out there, they're delaying that. So since then, New York, they actually did pass it, and I'm really happy about that. But then it was a huge celebration, my God, I was like, -- everybody hated me, but they're all these heroes. Again, I am thrilled that it passed and it gives you a year window opportunity. I don't know actually what my bill said from the time that you reasonably could have recovered the memory. So like a therapist would have to certify sort of, that you recovered the memory and it was for a year from then that you were able to take some action. And it was very important bill, and it did get me on the O'Reilly Factor. Bill O'Reilly, who I was eligible to be yelled at by him. And it's funny because at the time, the irony, that I was on the show about positions, people in positions of authority misusing it with power and sexual inappropriateness. But he sits higher than you do. And then I said, yeah, your eyes is so much bluer in person than in TV, which kind of threw him off his game. So in that one he said, "Well, I agree with you, but some would say you're only doing this because," -- like I said, "Well, then you did just say that". And you'd be surprised at the number of people who I didn't think would be Fox News watchers that actually said, I saw you on TV. I went on something else against the first Iraq war and I signed some advertisement, a full page in the newspaper. Remember newspapers, full page in the newspaper, and there was something in it that said something about Nazis and if I had seen that, I wouldn't have signed it. So anyway, I went on his show because I was opposed to the first Iraq War, and he said "What, why did you sign that letter?" And I literally said, "I don't know, why did I sign that letter?" An then he got a little bit thrown off, and the guy who he had on who was very opposed to this group that was the anti-Iraq War was like a wacko. And so I seem perfectly normal so that went pretty well. But I did notice some things, in Fox there were attractive women in knit dresses, and they seem sort of important, and I would introduce myself, and I didn't know their names and they were very annoyed that I didn't know their names. Because many of the women political experts are very attractive women which was then is still the case. But one of the shows with O'Riley, I heard that this very low level employee, it was her birthday. So, Bill wanted a cup of coffee. So she came on the set with a cup of coffee and I said, "Bill, it's her birthday today". So what could he? He didn't even know she existed. His coffee appeared cause he wanted it, but he made him say, happy birthday [laughs]. And I was asked to go on another time, and I didn't know why the producer was hysterical that I wouldn't go, and she really wanted me to go. And it turns out she was the woman that came forward, that had been horribly harassed ; the last one in a long line of harassers. So that's why she was so -- and I don't know, there's a certain energy that people who have been victims have that I can tell. And they would often come to discuss some issue. Not that issue but I knew what they really wanted to do was talk about that issue. But the other thing is that New York just passed a bill, adult survivors of sexual abuse by persons in positions of authority. And when I first went to the Senate, all the assembly members in the Senate went to Albany Medical Center to get a physical. I was like, why are we getting special treatment? I thought, why doesn't everyone get a physical? Well, I found out because senators and so many people were not necessarily dropping dead in their seats, but there's a lot of older people, but they wanted to have everyone's medical records in case they had to be brought there for treatment while they were in Albany. So I went to get my physical assessment and everything and talk about, yeah, you know all the things. Mental health, HIV, the list goes on and on, HPV. So, I am sitting on the examining table with the doctor and telling him my health history and all of a sudden, I felt an erect penis pushing up against me and I did exactly what textbook, I made believe it wasn't happening. I just -- like it couldn't be happening, but it was happening. And when I went back to my office, I immediately told my council about it. So, I did tell someone right away and then I raised it in therapy, in a group therapy, I brought it up. And then when I left office, I was on the board of the anti-violence project but nearly at a fundraiser for them, I might tell a story about what happened in the parking lot at the gay bar and at this particular fundraiser, I started to tell that story and I said, wait, I wanna tell you a different story. And I told that story, and the executive director -- and I said, I've always regretted that I didn't go up and confront him because I'm sure he's doing it to other people and it escalates. And I didn't do it, so shame on me. Anyway, she said, I'll go with you. So when this bill passed, I called her, she's [inaudible]. I said, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go do it, I'll do it publicly because I can, because anything that I could be shamed about and that I might even feel shamed about, my way to deal with it is to just yell it out kind of. And then other people, I feel like it might give them courage too to do it and why can't I -- I'm able to do it. I'm very grateful for that gift. And so of course I don't talk about my addictions. [laughs] Of course it's on film for the world, but I'm very selective about who I tell, and sometimes I tell someone that I think needs to hear it. So not only do I recruit people to be open about their queerness, but I sometimes recruit people who I think they need the help of a support group to deal with an addiction problem. So that's very important. That said, so I've moved twice since then, and I kept his name and the papers and I knew exactly where they were. And in the most recent move, I had no idea what boxes they were in. This move was a very bad experience in the middle of the pandemic. And I looked and I looked, and I finally found it. And so I know, now I have his name and he's still in Albany and he's still practicing so I can still -- I don't know what I'm gonna do with it. Whether I'm gonna go see him first. I don't know what I'm gonna do. But I'm gonna do something with it because -- this is the other thing, Republicans didn't let Democrats have hearings, but they let me have forums, which for all intents and purposes were exactly like hearings. They filmed them and witnesses, just no other senators would ever go to them because there was controversial topics. One of them was on survivors of childhood sexual abuse, and story after story after story. And yeah, this is not absolutely true, but it's sort of a kind of thing, that men are so angry and would yell at me, why isn't this bill passed? And the women would usually weep. And as an anger and a sadness, two of my big emotions, I understand that. But it turned out also my counsel Mark had been the victim, he recovered the memory, he was the victim, horribly victimized by a priest, horrible. Like taken away to a cabin with other boys, and they would all be afraid he was gonna have them sleep with him, and he would take them to porn stores, just terrible, terrible. And he's so bad that he was defrocked before it was being done, but it was very rough for Mark to deal with it. And the gift is that because he was there, he helped me a lot to have these things because these stories needed to be told. But he went to the priest to the cemetery where he was buried, and he was standing by his grave and his nose started to bleed and he never had a nosebleed before. So anyway, the democratic assembly member who carried my bill with the one year window of opportunity to report in addition to going forward, her son had been a victim of abuse. So now interestingly she had a daughter who was a lesbian, but she was against marriage. Anyway, but she kept weakening the bill and weakening the bill, and she was very upset. She'd come to the me and I would say, "Did they tell you it would pass if you weakened it?" And she said, "no," so I said, "Why are you weakening it?" Maybe if something was gonna pass. Because it's a whole story about how parity for mental health got passed, which I may rush through later on but I said, "Marge, why are you doing that?" And the most vocal opponent in the assembly who, I'm Pollyanna, I never think anyone's ever doing anything wrong. He turned out he was horrible, everybody who had worked for him, he had to not run for re-election. He was --nand then I realized why they were all opposed to it, because of the statute of limitations. If you eliminated that for this crime. There were so many of these guys, maybe women too, but guys that were liable to be -- and that's why they were blocking it. And I also think, spoiling my book, that marriage, when marriage finally did pass. I believe that Governor Cuomo went to the cardinal and said to the cardinal, you know what you let marriage pass, I'll never let this bill go through. And conveniently the cardinal was out of town when marriage passed and the bill went nowhere until in the Senate the Democrats had a majority large enough so that even if the governor vetoed it, they could override his veto and that's how it got done. No, I don't know that's true. Like I don't know that Michelle Obama at the breakfast table story is true, but I believe that that was that he made that deal. So anyway, parity for mental health not to sell this. You know, when you're in the minority, you really have to can't do like a lot of bills. Because when I was in the majority, I just shoveled out bills for two years. I just, I passed more bills in the assembly health committee. So he couldn't get -- he couldn't keep up with me because --"We can't pass because the Republicans won't do it". Well, I was literally shoveling out these bills. Anyway, I'm still a minority and I wanted parity for mental health and in New York was called Timothy's Law And every day on the floor of the Senate, you know, there'd be like 10, 20 pieces of legislation that we would vote on and my council and I we always we did our homework, and I knew what I was gonna vote yes and no on and why. But I would pick out one bill, and make it about Timothy's Law because it had to be germane to the issue at hand what the bill was addressing. So say it was a veterans bill, I would stand up and I would say, you know, "Veterans, they deserve respect and of course we should provide this benefit. But you know, when a veteran passes away in the line of duty, people in the family are very sad and they can get depressed, but unfortunately they can't get any help because we haven't passed Timothy's Law". And it became like a guessing game, people try to guess which bill it was. I was gonna do that on, and usually it wasn't the one they thought, but I did that every day, every, every day that I was there, I did it and finally it passed, and it just didn't have enough behavioral health and didn't have substance abuse treatment, that was to come later. But at least it had parity for general mental health and as a consumer, although my insurance did cover it, but not all insurance covered it. So anyway, he had a press conference and he invited me to it. And never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever did the Republicans when the bill passed, invited a Democrat to stand with them. And I was invited with three other -- well Joe Bruno and three other Republican senators who ostensibly where, you know, the powers that wanted the bill passed, and there was me. And he really had to, you know, he, he said thanks to Tom Duane basically. Not thanks to Tom Duane being so annoying, but you know it worked. And that's how I got things done and all that, I just did things differently. You know, I just -- I would figure out some way to get it done and that was a good one, and it got the job done so. MF: Well I wonder if that's not a good place to stop for today-- TD: For all of our mental health. MF: I just also love that story because it really shows your tenacity. TD: Nothing if not. Some would say stubborn, I would say dogged, determined, and tenacious. Yes, thank you. It's sometimes stubborn. MF: Well, that's a good quality too. Well, I just want to say thank you again for meeting with me and hopefully we can do this again and talk a little bit about marriage. Yes, because it's a tragedy and a cele --, it's everything. MF: It's a big story. TD: And it's Andrew Cuomo too. It's got everything. MF: Well we have to do another one of these. So thank you again. TD: It was well, you know, well, I -- I went to a reunion. I took a picture of me holding this sign because it was three classes because of the pandemic and I left in '75. I finished over two of my courses about class of '76, but it took me until '77 to complete those two courses. So, it was perfect for me, and I was a griffin, so, I did know students from '77, which was the thing, I think I love being in griffin, which is a residence hall counselor. I really loved that that duty or whatever -- wasn't -- didn't feel like work. Let's just say that. It was, it was great. But I did feel out of place in the beginning and then, you know, as I did in the Senate, I just, I just made it comfortable in my own way. I made it comfortable, and a lot of it was about revealing things about myself which sort of opened the door for them to reveal things too. So I may come back to some more reunions. MF: If you do you should -- I hope you'll call me. TD: Oh 100% yes. Are you kidding? Yes, absolutely. Well, I did talk about you, I said I'm here to do an interview with Mary Foltz. I said, I can't believe it. She's a lesbian feminist and gender studies in the English department and she has tenure. Because when I asked if you had tenure, and you said, "yes I have tenure," I almost fell out of my seat. I couldn't -- at Lehigh, what? So, but it's not a bit -- I mean they're better, but there's still a lot of work that needs to be done here, well everywhere. But you know, it starts from the conservatives. But anyway, I had my picture taking holding the sign, and then I -- the President was watching the whole thing. So I did -- I nod and walked over to him, and I said, "Can I have a picture with you?" Because my older brother is very active in the alumni association, and he was on the board here. And if he goes around, you know, there's a traveling show with other graduates to help alumni to loosen up their checkbooks. And so, I made sure that I had that picture and I sent them to him just to prove that I was here because I had never come before. Maybe Lehigh/Lafayette game from time to time back -- I told you in '85 I think when the Ethan Felson tried to start something but-- and I didn't come for the game, I came to be [inaudible]. Like you want to go to the Lehigh/Lafayette game. Yes, absolutely. So anyway-- MF: Well, we will schedule another interview, and again, thank you so much. So glad that you came to visit us at Lehigh. TD: [goes to shake hands] We'd better do that first right. Remember gloves? Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile= Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:46:30 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Thomas Duane, June 12, 2022 (Part 4) Description An account of the resource Thomas Duane recounts his time in the State Senate fighting for legislation like the Sexual Orientation Nondiscrimination Act (SONDA) and Mental Health Parity (Timothy's Law), as well as his personal relationships with HIV and addiction. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LGBT-36 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-06-12 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright remains with the interview subject and their heirs. https://lgbt.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/5fcb7fa2df13fb6a1c80b28eff5fd051.png d7c4039833ede0bc4a69f3c44cdebc3a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community: HIV/AIDS Description An account of the resource In the spring of 2020, the Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive received a grant to collect oral histories and written stories for 40 Years of Public Health in the Lehigh Valley’s LGBT Community: Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19. The collection consists of oral histories from individuals who experienced the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 1990s, as well as oral histories from members of the local community as they lived through 2020's summer of Covid-19. Running through both are the themes of dealing with the fear of an emerging health crisis, loneliness and isolation, and coming together as a community in support and activism. The project was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Liz Bradbury Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed William Aull OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PH40_04.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 June 29, 2020 William Aull, June 29, 2020 PH40_04 01:29:29 LVLGBT40 40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository This oral history recording was sponsored in part by the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, with generous support provided by a grant to Lafayette College from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg AIDS (Disease) Hospices (Terminal care) William Aull Liz Bradbury video/mpeg AullWilliam_20200629_video 1.0:|27(12)|56(2)|79(5)|96(4)|113(11)|140(11)|165(16)|186(14)|211(2)|230(10)|253(2)|274(9)|293(7)|312(13)|331(18)|348(2)|367(4)|384(7)|403(8)|422(6)|437(17)|458(6)|479(16)|502(5)|523(10)|538(8)|557(4)|574(2)|595(18)|616(5)|631(2)|656(8)|669(2)|696(4)|711(6)|728(15)|747(7)|768(2)|785(9)|808(14)|823(18)|844(12)|861(3)|878(16)|897(9)|916(11)|937(16)|958(13)|973(19)|992(4)|1009(9)|1028(5)|1049(5)|1070(10)|1091(2)|1112(6)|1131(4)|1148(16)|1169(3)|1184(9)|1203(6)|1220(11)|1243(3)|1260(17)|1281(11)|1304(11)|1323(13)|1340(3)|1361(2)|1378(7)|1397(2)|1418(13)|1441(3)|1458(6)|1477(5)|1498(12)|1519(3)|1534(3)|1545(16)|1560(14)|1577(6)|1594(12)|1615(8)|1642(2)|1657(8)|1688(11)|1713(9)|1734(17)|1759(10)|1780(5) 0 https://youtu.be/BFcTQtrG1UE YouTube video 0 Interview introductory material and consent 0 183 First awareness of the disease I do, it was actually nineteen eighty-seven. I was in a gay men’s leather club in Reading at the time and we had a meeting and we were getting notices that club members that we knew were in one of the local hospitals. 0 273 Caregiving and the beginning of Rainbow Home So in eighty-nine there was an article in the Reading Eagle and the Reading Times that a group of government officials from the commonwealth and several sisters from different women’s religious orders in the Catholic Church were going to establish a personal care home on the grounds of the Wernersville State Hospital because at that time they were starting to lose some people from the state hospital facility.&#13 ; Catholic Church ; Rainbow Home ; Reading PA ; The Reading Eagle ; The Reading Times ; Wernersville ; Wernersville State Hospital Nursing ; Rainbow Home ; Volunteering 0 638 Illness and death of a loved one My one and only love moved to Philadelphia. I was in nursing school at the time in seventy-two. And Eric and I said, “We’re going to stay in touch.” He moved to Philly for a better job. And then I didn’t hear from him and I’m like, “This is weird, because he’s usually pretty good about staying in touch.” 0 895 Joining the staff at Rainbow Home and redoing the hospital And the next day Sister Mary called me and said, “I want to put you on staff.” And I said, “Okay.” And so we painted and we redid -- because the wards in that building were god-awful colors, we’re talking like brown ceilings and yellow walls. So Sister Cecilia, who should have been a decorator if she wasn’t a nun, did an awesome job. I mean it was very homelike.&#13 ; 0 976 Life and activites at Rainbow Home And we had a lot of really great times in that building. I mean we had events. We took them on field trips. We took them to Knoebels if they were able to go. I took a couple of them shopping on their own. We celebrated all the holidays. So there was a lot of life and living in Rainbow Home. 0 1096 Religious services and memorials And then the last three years I was also in charge of the pastoral care department because our Episcopal deacon -- and then she became a priest -- got a parish. And so I worked with the clergy. And that was eye-opening, because I had a few that I wanted to say, “Well, I’m sorry you feel that way.” I would have clergy that would refuse to give them anointings on their deathbed. So I cheated. I did it. But I switched the formula that I read. I didn’t say, “I absolve you of all sins and censures.” I said, “May the Lord absolve you.” Depending on whatever their faith was. I was very ecumenical in that.&#13 ; 0 1164 Relationships and fun activites at Rainbow Home And a lot of the residents -- the residents became close to each other. It was like a family. And I think that Sister Mary said it best. It was the only place where the gay man could pass the mashed potatoes to the straight woman who would pass them to the drug user who would pass them to the whatever. 0 1386 Religious structure of Rainbow Home LB: So this was in a Catholic hospital?&#13 ; &#13 ; WA: No. We were ecumenical.&#13 ; &#13 ; LB: Oh, okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; WA: We just had the sisters there to -- you know, they were the ones that really got it going. And back then a lot of the hospices were being run in Catholic hospitals. One of the big ones was Saint Vincent’s in the Village, in the West Village in New York. That was a very very big -- that was a whole floor of the hospital. Saint Clare’s had a unit. But again the staff obviously was very ecumenical. 0 1653 Funding and facilities for Rainbow Home / local community reception LB: But who was funding that? Was it coming from people’s --&#13 ; &#13 ; WA: Donations. Of course I mean their insurance kicked in. And we had a lot of very generous benefactors. Al -- Mr. Boscov donated all new equipment for the kitchen. And we only had to pay the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania $1 a year for rent, and that was set up when Senator Mike O’Pake was in office. So we paid the state $1 a year rent.&#13 ; 0 1778 Introduction of AZT and its side effects / Health insurance &amp ; preexisting conditions LB: When you were talking about AZT, was that later? Because AZT had a lot of side effects and stuff. Were you seeing that as well? Talk a little bit about the AZT stuff.&#13 ; &#13 ; WA: We weren’t seeing a lot of side effects with AZT. The drug that we saw the most side effects was Crixivan. And that came on later. And the reason that we were trying to figure this out was why are we suddenly -- what’s going on with this drug. 0 2040 St. Joseph's Hospital in Reading / doctors LB: Let’s see. When you were talking about Saint Joe’s, what’s Saint Joe’s? That’s a Catholic hospital?&#13 ; &#13 ; WA: Saint Joseph’s was a Catholic hospital in Reading. And Dr. Woodward was on staff there. But the primary amount of our -- if they were local -- were being seen by Dr. DeBenedictis and Dr. Jones because Dr. D was one of the first infectious disease doctors to get into the field. Dr. Woodward came in later.&#13 ; 0 2312 Funeral services for Rainbow Home patients LB: It was. Let’s see. So were you having funerals there? Did you have anybody that would do the funerals for you or stuff like that?&#13 ; &#13 ; WA: We did. We did. Jay Gilbert was one. Jay is very good. Anyone from the Lehigh Valley. Now as far as in Reading, I really don’t remember who they were, because I just remember Jay’s name floating around a lot. If they were from up this way. I’m sure there were one or two down in Reading that were really good about that. Because they knew who we were and what we were.&#13 ; 0 2388 The toll of working with dying patients LB: It must have been very hard to have people dying and knowing that that was going to happen to people for you. Did that take its toll? Well, apparently it did. But sounded like you did it for a long time. It was really wonderfully gracious of you.&#13 ; &#13 ; WA: Yeah, I mean there were times when I would come home from work. And if we had someone who was actively dying -- and Brenda was on -- for the first two years Brenda was all alone, and then they put a second staff member on. So I had a pager at that point. 0 2663 The story of David Well, I think probably one of the toughest ones for me, and I had a few, was I went down to Jersey to do an assessment on a potential resident. And David was in a nursing home in Atlantic City, so you can picture a nursing home is already not a good sign. So I go in and here’s David, six-one, six-two. Dark brown hair, jet-blue eyes. Laying in a bed. 0 3217 Communicating with families of the deceased We only had one family that really didn’t want anything to do with their son. And I called them when he started actively dying and said, “Are you going to come visit?” “Well, of course we are.” I said, “Well, someone wrote on the admission paper.” And this was how it was worded. When he kicks the bucket don’t call us. 0 3299 The night three patients died WA: Because that was the night I had three deaths an hour apart.&#13 ; &#13 ; LB: Oh gosh.&#13 ; &#13 ; WA: He was number two. So I had three actively going at once. And my coworker, she was the best. Bev said, “You take care of the three, I’ll take care of the other nine.” 0 3359 Medications and nursing care LB: And what kind of meds were you giving people then? Was this in the eighties or was it mostly -- what kind of (inaudible).&#13 ; &#13 ; WA: Primarily their HIV/AIDS but also some of them would have weight loss. There were two drugs. There was Marinol which was synthetic marijuana, but it did not give them a buzz or get them high, it only stimulated the part of the brain that said, “You need to eat.” 0 3475 Mental health for the caregivers And they had a therapist for us. Because once a month we would have a meeting to talk about how we felt in the midst of losing all these guys and gals. So that mentally we were okay. But I knew when Tommy died. I said, “Okay, that’s it.” 0 3557 National Catholic AIDS Network And I had joined -- they are no longer, but I had become a member of the National Catholic AIDS Network or NCAN and we would meet every summer in Chicago at Loyola University on the lake. And we would have workshops, we would have time to just share our stories. But what was really wonderful was the one year -- Cardinal Bernardin was in charge of the archdiocese at that time and very well known for being a compassionate cardinal. 0 3748 Reflecting on age and the passage of time LB: Yeah. How old were you in the eighties?&#13 ; &#13 ; WA: Geez, well, I’m sixty-seven now, so I would say in my fifties, I had to be in my fifties. Late forties, early fifties, I -- at this point (inaudible) twenty-six, fifty-one, let’s see.&#13 ; &#13 ; LB: It was thirty-five years ago, honey?&#13 ; &#13 ; WA: Huh.&#13 ; &#13 ; LB: It was thirty-five years ago.&#13 ; &#13 ; WA: Yeah, what can I tell you? That’ll be an edit.&#13 ; &#13 ; LB: It’s okay. I think one of the things is we forget when you’re a grown-up and you’re doing things like that we forget that it was a long time ago when we were kids in a lot of ways, we were in our (inaudible) thirties. What did you say, you’re sixty-seven now? You were born in nineteen --&#13 ; 0 3832 Starting the AIDS Walk in Reading WA: And Ozzie, who had one of the local bars, Ozzie and I were responsible for getting the first AIDS walk in Reading going. And we worked with -- oh, I can’t. Her son, what’s the name of the farm? Who did you --&#13 ; &#13 ; LB: Rodale. Ardath Rodale.&#13 ; &#13 ; WA: Yeah, we worked with -- yeah.&#13 ; &#13 ; LB: Talking to Maria Rodale about Ardath Rodale.&#13 ; &#13 ; WA: To do the first AIDS walk in Reading.&#13 ; 0 3908 Changes brought by better medications LB: In about nineteen ninety-three, which is about the middle of the time that you were at Rainbow House, medication really changed. And in ninety-three the worst part about the epidemic really started to fall back a little bit because there were actually drugs that could really prolong people’s lives, it wasn’t so much of a death sentence. Were you noticing a change then? What was it like?&#13 ; &#13 ; WA: Yeah. Well, for us it was really great because we had them longer. And for the most part they were doing very well on them. And that was thanks to like ACT UP and other organizations that were really getting up in the face of these drug companies and saying, “Why are you putting these on hold forever?” 0 4043 Involvement (or lack thereof) of the Catholic Church / Priest as a patient t up to New York because I was doing my own stuff down here. The one year the bishop of the Catholic diocese had an anointing service at DeSales and he said, “It’s open to everyone.” So I took a couple of the guys up. And afterwards I said, “Um, how come you never visit?” Question mark. And he goes, “I don’t have time.” I said, “Oh. Really? Oh. Okay.” Because here’s the interesting thing. We had a priest in the house as a patient. And [Claude?], father, had surgery. And he got bad blood. This is before they were doing the big testing. And he was from the Diocese of Camden. So he came up, great guy, we all loved padre, and every morning I would get him up, we did his a.m. care, gave him his meds. And then he and I would go into our multipurpose room and he would do Mass.&#13 ; 0 4362 Relationship of HIV/AIDS and his experience to the COVID-19 pandemic LB: I wondered if you wanted to talk anything about how you see the relationship of HIV/AIDS and the epidemic then and what you were doing and its relationship to what’s happening now with COVID-19. What do you think about that?&#13 ; &#13 ; WA: Well, I mean I think we need to be aware that this COVID-19 is very nasty. And we have to really look at our brothers and sisters that are HIV-positive and even with the meds they’re immunosuppressed as it is. And this could really knock the socks off of them. They could end up in the hospitals and in ICUs and on vents. 0 4529 Message for viewers in the future LB: Yeah. So we have about fourteen minutes left. But I would love for you to think about somebody’s going to see this thirty years, forty years from now. And you have an opportunity to talk to the future here. Go into the future and tell people what you think they really should know about the HIV/AIDS epidemic. And maybe even talk about -- some people -- and I think David talked about this, but other people that I’ve interviewed, because I think you’re the sixth interview I’ve done, they’re talking about the lack of recognition by elected officials about it for so many years that it was very painful. And you have any insight on that? And then also just to tell people what they should know about this time.&#13 ; &#13 ; WA: Well, as far as the -- I think David covered it pretty good with the elected officials. That for so many years it was ignored. And it’s like it’s their disease, let them deal with it. Then when it started to hit everyone else okay, now we have to do something about it.&#13 ; 0 4644 Sharing memories of specific patients for future generations I’m going to share a couple of the guys as far as their names and what they did because I think for future generations the name and what they did is something that they need to know. And it’s first names. I mean it’s going to be first names.&#13 ; &#13 ; Andy had a double doctorate in chemical physics. Brilliant mind. Larry was the chief tie department buyer for Lord &amp ; Taylor. Rich had his own fashionwear. It was called Poshwear. &#13 ; &#13 ; Jeff was a well known hairdresser in the Washington area. David was a top-notch chef. Leo was a member of the United States Navy with honorable discharge. So he served his country before Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.&#13 ; 0 4761 Viewing the AIDS quilt If you get a chance, future generations, to see any part of the quilt, the quilt will tell the stories. You don’t have to know them. We had a quilt showing our fifth anniversary at Rainbow Home at Albright. And we took in an extremely high amount of new quilts. The guys from NAMES Project were like, “We’ve never had this many at such a small gathering.” Well, surprise. Because we were making them. We did a house quilt every year. 0 4902 Concluding remarks Because we would check in on each other constantly after a death. We had a quick staff meeting to make sure that everybody was doing okay. Because our counselor would say, “If you need to talk after a death you know where I am.” So I hope that they never have to face any kind of pandemic like this, this current -- or the pandemic of HIV/AIDS. But if they do, get involved. Don’t sit on the sidelines. That’s it.&#13 ; 0 MovingImage Bill Aull, for many years a caregiver at the Rainbow Home near Reading, PA, shares his experiences during the height of the AIDS epidemic in the 1980s and 1990s. He reflects on specific patients, the role of Catholic Church in AIDS care, and the operations and services of Rainbow Home. WILLIAM AULL . LIZ BRADBURY: There we go. Now we're recording. Oh, you look great, the light is terrific on you. I have to read you this thing. And it says, "With this project, Bradbury-Sullivan LGBT Community Center and Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on 40 years of public health experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community, collecting and curating local LGBT health experiences from HIV/AIDS to COVID-19." My name is Liz Bradbury and I'm here with William Aull. Is that the way you pronounce it? WILLIAM AULL: Yes, ma'am. LB: To talk about his experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of COVID-19 pandemic as part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive. And let's see. We're meeting on Zoom on -- oh, I'm supposed to say the date. I haven't been saying the date of this. On June 29th, 2020. Forgot to say that on Maria's. So thank you very much, Bill, for your willingness to speak with us today. To start, can you please state your full name and spell it for me? WA: Okay, William Arthur Aull, W-I-L-L-I-A-M A-R-T-H-U-R A-U-L-L. LB: Okay. And will you please share your birth date? WA: September 26th, 1951. LB: Okay. Do you consent to this interview today? WA: I do. LB: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online in searchable formats? WA: I do. LB: Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats including films, archives, Web sites, presentations, and other formats? WA: I do. LB: Do you understand that you will have thirty days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review your interview, identify any parts that you'd like to delete or withdraw from your interview from the project? WA: I do. LB: You could also decide to blow off the whole thing if you wanted. Although we hope you don't. Okay. So we're going to just start this out. And the very first question -- I sent these questions to you before -- but the very first thing to just get you going here is to say in the midst of this current health crisis that we're experiencing we want to take this opportunity to look back to those who lived through the worst of the HIV/AIDS epidemic in the nineteen-eighties and the nineteen-nineties. Do you remember the first time you became aware of the disease? WA: I do, it was actually nineteen eighty-seven. I was in a gay men's leather club in Reading at the time and we had a meeting and we were getting notices that club members that we knew were in one of the local hospitals. Reading Hospital &amp ; Medical Center. But we weren't getting the details of what. So I said, "Well, I'm going to go visit -- name -- and see what's going on." I get over there and they're like, "You have to put this on and this on." I mean I was in full surgical gear. I'm like, "I'm not going to the operating room." "Oh, no, no, they have this disease, we don't know what we're calling it yet, but you have to wear this to go in." "Okay then." Then it was GRID. Then it was this. And then finally everyone said, "Okay, it's autoimmune deficiency syndrome, aka AIDS." I'm like, "Oh, okay." And people were just dropping like flies. So in eighty-nine there was an article in the Reading Eagle and the Reading Times that a group of government officials from the commonwealth and several sisters from different women's religious orders in the Catholic Church were going to establish a personal care home on the grounds of the Wernersville State Hospital because at that time they were starting to lose some people from the state hospital facility. LB: Is that in Reading? WA: Yeah, it was in Wernersville. LB: Oh, Wernersville. WA: Wernersville which was right -- yeah, about fifteen minutes outside of Reading proper. LB: Okay, I'm sorry. WA: That's okay. So one Sunday one of the sisters came to our parish to talk about what Rainbow Home was going to be, what Rainbow Home was going to do. And they needed volunteers. And I thought you know, I could give them a couple hours a week to do whatever. So I talked to Sister [Carol Ann?], who was the volunteer coordinator, and I said, "I have an extensive background as a nursing assistant." Well. LB: Ah. WA: The next day I get a phone call from Sister Mary, who was going to be in charge of the caregiving. Like here it comes. "I'd like to interview you for a position. A paid staff member." "Okay." LB: Oh, okay, yeah. WA: Yeah. From volunteer to pay. So I was going down to visit a friend of mine, [Johnjohn?], who has since passed away. And his partner and he did not live together, but Johnjohn had a zero T cell count but you would have never known he was full-blown AIDS, I mean healthy as an ox, took his meds, rode his motorcycle, went water-skiing, [ski skiing?], the whole nine yards. But his partner couldn't give him his B12 shots. He was deathly afraid of needles. So I talked to Sister Mary before I left, and I said, "Could we just review this?" And she goes, "Yeah." So I would go down once a month and give him his B12s. So I did my interview and she said, "Well, I have to check out your references, etc." She said, "I'll get back to you in a couple days." "Great." So I go down. And at the time I was in the Roman Church. I was Roman Catholic. I'm now Episcopalian. So I stopped at the shrine and I said a prayer in front of a statue of the Blessed Mother and said, "Hey, if I'm going to take this ministry on, could I have a sign?" Johnjohn and I are having dinner. He goes, "You're going to take care of a lot of people with this disease so fasten the seatbelt." And I'm like, "Okay." It's that quick. Like God was not saying -- yeah, you're not waiting around, dude, I'm going to get you in now. So in nineteen-ninty on the Feast of All Souls, which was November seventh -- I'm sorry, November second -- we dedicated Rainbow Home. Now Rainbow Home was open to anyone. And the reason that it was named Rainbow Home was that we had a rabbi on the board, and they were trying to come up with a name, and he said, "Well, in the book of Genesis," and he proceeded to do his thing. And I'm like, "Well, that's kind of cool, I really like that." But we did fly a rainbow flag outside the building. LB: Great. WA: But we had to tell people that it was open to everyone. It was not just the LBGTQ community. In the beginning we would have maybe two or three, the first year, year and a half, two years. Then all of a sudden word got out because people were in the hospitals but they were sending them home and their parents were trying to take care of them. Well, as they progressed in the disease they needed twenty-fourhour care and you've got moms and dads that don't know the first thing about anything other than aspirin. But for the first three years we were just giving basically AZT because that was the drug at the time. And then more drugs would come in. We were a thirteen bed facility. And about three and a half years in we started to fill up. Then we had a waiting list to get in. We took care of anyone with HIV/AIDS but we also would accept cancer patients. So we wanted to make sure that people knew that if they had a loved one who was end-stage cancer that they were more than welcome. And we actually had a mom who had really bad breast cancer who came to spend her last days. And so the guys and the gals in the house referred to her as the housemother. LB: (inaudible). WA: Any medications that we gave were either oral or rectal by -- and that was the only way. If they needed any kind of shot the RNs would come in. We worked with visiting nurses, and they would come in and do them. My one and only love moved to Philadelphia. I was in nursing school at the time in seventy-two. And Eric and I said, "We're going to stay in touch." He moved to Philly for a better job. And then I didn't hear from him and I'm like, "This is weird, because he's usually pretty good about staying in touch." And his mom called me and said, "He's in Reading Hospital in the ER, he's got full-blown AIDS," and this was two years later. And he goes, "They have no beds, I don't know what to do." I said, "Let me -- how bad is it?" She goes, "It's bad." Said, "Well, let me call Dr. Woodward at Saint Joe's and see if maybe I can get him up there." Because I talked to Dr. [Dee?] and I said, "Listen. His mom can't take care of him. Rainbow Home isn't open yet, as you know, because you're one of our medical directors. So what are you going to do?" He says, "Yeah, go ahead, talk to Chris Woodward and see if Chris is willing to take him on." So I called Chris and I said, "Listen. Do you think you could do this for me?" He goes, "Yeah, I've got beds." He said, "I'll get him up here." I said, "Okay." So I called Eric's mom and I said, "They're going to move him to Saint Joe's. They've got beds. Call me when he gets there." Okay. So I went up and I said, "Listen. You've got your own room and you're stuck with me for whatever time is left. I'm going to be staying overnight with you. I clear it with everyone." All the nurses knew, the staff knew. And about the ninth day I'm like, "Okay, he's starting to do the slide." I could see that death was coming to the door and I had to prep his mom and say, "Listen. I can't say when, I don't know how. But he's starting. Okay? So I'm just trying to prep you." And on the eleventh day I was with him and he goes, "I'm ready to go." I said, "Okay. Remember the good times. Know that I will always love you. My love for you is not going to end the minute you leave this world." He goes, "I have a really stupid favor to ask." I said, "Please, there is no stupid favor." He goes, "Do you think they'd get pissed off if you crawl into bed with me?" I said, "Well, if I can get a watchdog at the door." So in walks Sister [Joseph Ellen?] who was one of my nursing instructors. And I said, "I'm going to ask you a favor. This is probably very off the chart. Do you think you could give us maybe fifteen minutes alone? He just wants me to crawl in bed with him and hold him. Okay?" And she goes, "I'll stand watch." She stood outside the door, wouldn't let anyone in. She did call Dr. Woodward, she was still a nursing sister, she called Dr. Woodward and said, "Listen. Eric is on his way. And Bill is in with him. So I'm giving them some private time." And he said, "Just know that I love you. I will always love you. Thank you for being here." I said, "Well, go ahead and take your nap. Okay?" I'm like, "This is not the nap. I get this." And so he just went very peacefully in my arms. And no pain. They kept him. He was high-flying (inaudible) [and?] morphine. They had a drip going. So that was it. I gave him his bath and got him all ready for his trip to wherever he was going. And called his mom and said, "You need to come in." And the next day Sister Mary called me and said, "I want to put you on staff." And I said, "Okay." And so we painted and we redid -- because the wards in that building were god-awful colors, we're talking like brown ceilings and yellow walls. So Sister Cecilia, who should have been a decorator if she wasn't a nun, did an awesome job. I mean it was very homelike. The only thing that was hospital-looking was the bed. But everything else, we had curtains, they had their own TV, they had closets for their clothes. And so we started taking people in. And the first three months, I was on night shift. And then Mary moved me over to days or evenings. And I learned so much about life and living but also a hell of a lot about death and dying. And how some of them would go very peacefully and some of them would fight to the end. And it all depended on their spirit and what was going on. And we had a lot of really great times in that building. I mean we had events. We took them on field trips. We took them to Knoebels if they were able to go. I took a couple of them shopping on their own. We celebrated all the holidays. So there was a lot of life and living in Rainbow Home. And then in ninety-seven after seven years I said, "Okay, I'm done, I can't do this anymore." Because in the beginning I didn't know a lot of the people, but the last three years, a lot of my friends were coming in. And I had to be both a professional health caregiver but I had to cross the bridge and be the friend when the time came. And there were a couple that just got into a spot in my heart that -- forget it. LB: Was this set up as a hospice kind of thing? WA: It was under hospice guidelines. So yeah. It was under hospice guidelines. But it was more a personal care home. But we did fall under hospice. And that's why I was able to assist with medications. And that's what made it really unique. And we had a corps of volunteers that were just absolutely awesome. And a lot of them were parents of guys and gals that were there. And so we told them they had to wait a year, and then they could come back and volunteer. And a lot of them would do that. And then the last three years I was also in charge of the pastoral care department because our Episcopal deacon -- and then she became a priest -- got a parish. And so I worked with the clergy. And that was eye-opening, because I had a few that I wanted to say, "Well, I'm sorry you feel that way." I would have clergy that would refuse to give them anointings on their deathbed. So I cheated. I did it. But I switched the formula that I read. I didn't say, "I absolve you of all sins and censures." I said, "May the Lord absolve you." Depending on whatever their faith was. I was very ecumenical in that. And we would do a monthly memorial service and then we would do a yearly. And that was open to everyone. And a lot of the residents -- the residents became close to each other. It was like a family. And I think that Sister Mary said it best. It was the only place where the gay man could pass the mashed potatoes to the straight woman who would pass them to the drug user who would pass them to the whatever. And some of the stories that they would tell me when I was still working in the kitchen. I would just stand there and I would laugh. I'm like, "I could never share these outside of these walls." Because they were quite colorful. And I do mean colorful. Like I don't think I could put these in a book. No. Not really. LB: Because they were wild stories? WA: Oh, very wild, very wild. But the kind that gave me a better idea what to say and what to use for the memorial service. Because I could write those in the pastoral care part of the chart. And that's what made it such a unique place was that in the beginning a lot of people were like, "Well, I don't want to go there." And then they would be there for a while and they'd be like, "Wow." We had water. Especially in the summer the guys would get their water guns and they'd be outside. Like I'd walk in ready to go to work and I'd be in my scrubs. And everyone's like, "Oh, you got recepted, didn't you [hear?]?" My scrub top looked like I took it right out of the washer and didn't put it in the dryer because Bobby Gordon would like hhhh with the squirt gun. I'm like, "Robert, I'm going to get you for this tonight, trust me. Beware." "You wouldn't do anything." "Oh, wouldn't I? Beware." And that was a great thing. The staff had such a good relationship with the residents. And the residents had a good relationship with the staff. They all respected the sisters that were there. And if we had anyone who was using drugs and they would go out for a day pass, if we suspected that they might have relapsed, we had a protocol where we would just pull a drug test. We didn't pull randoms. They had to really demonstrate. And there were only maybe two or three that fell off. But they had meetings. They had AA meetings, NA meetings that they had to go to. And that was part of the agreement to be (inaudible) into the building. LB: Oh, I'm losing your voice. WA: Am I back? LB: Yeah, now you're back, yeah. WA: Okay. LB: So you were saying they had AA meetings and NA meetings and what else did you say? WA: That was it. NA and AA. LB: So this was in a Catholic hospital? WA: No. We were ecumenical. LB: Oh, okay. WA: We just had the sisters there to -- you know, they were the ones that really got it going. And back then a lot of the hospices were being run in Catholic hospitals. One of the big ones was Saint Vincent's in the Village, in the West Village in New York. That was a very very big -- that was a whole floor of the hospital. Saint Clare's had a unit. But again the staff obviously was very ecumenical. It wasn't all -- Brenda was a staff member, Bev was a staff member, and I was a staff member. So we were the three lay staff members. Brenda worked nights, Bev and I did evenings or days. LB: So these were nuns though that started -- WA: Yes. LB: They started it out of their convent or out of their sisterhood or how did that work? WA: Well, what happened was Sister Mary had her master's and she taught nursing and she worked at the White House down in Washington, which was a big -- it was attached with -- I forget who they were attached with. It was some big organization in DC. But she would do home visits to the guys in Georgetown, mostly Georgetown, I think it was under Whitman-Walker down there. So yeah. And she was on sabbatical. And then Sister Carol Ann was a teacher. She retired. Sister Mary Therese was a teacher and she retired. And forgot. Carol Ann. Sister [Fabian?] was actually the sister that got this started. She's at the Precious Blood Convent in Shillington. And people were asking her about a place, because she was getting phone calls, because she was also a nursing sister. And then Sister [Mary Cecilia?] was a practical nurse. So they all had nursing backgrounds. And back then a lot of the nursing orders were the nuns and the three orders of Catholic brothers that had nursing brothers were the ones that were opening the hospices in their hospitals or their facilities. And everyone just loved them because they were free spirits. They gave of their time and their talent. And we were a big family there. And then when I left and I was the last of the original staff, and all the nuns had left except for one, and she only stayed another year because she noticed it was becoming more of a business than it was what the original meaning and the beginning of Rainbow Home was. Because our mission statement started, "Believing in the worth and dignity of each person as a child of God." That was the beginning of our mission statement. And in the entryway we had this beautiful rainbow with the mission statement printed on it. And then the quote from the book of Genesis was included in that. LB: But who was funding that? Was it coming from people's -- WA: Donations. Of course I mean their insurance kicked in. And we had a lot of very generous benefactors. Al -- Mr. Boscov donated all new equipment for the kitchen. And we only had to pay the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania $1 a year for rent, and that was set up when Senator Mike O'Pake was in office. So we paid the state $1 a year rent. LB: (inaudible) state hospital. WA: Right. LB: Oh, I see, okay, I see. WA: Yeah, it was on the grounds of the state hospital. And we only used the first floor. It was a two-floor, but we only used the first. But yeah, it was -- good times. If you could say good times. I mean a lot of laughter. I mean if I ever write a book people will laugh on one page and cry on the next. And a lot of times I still see two or three families that live in the area. Like we'll just randomly run into each other. And they'll always bring up how grateful they were that they had a place for their son to die with dignity. When churches were saying, "This is God's wrath and all this." And I'm like, "Yeah yeah yeah, okay, bye-bye, you haven't lived it until you see what we do. And that certainly is not the man's wrath." LB: When you were talking about AZT, was that later? Because AZT had a lot of side effects and stuff. Were you seeing that as well? Talk a little bit about the AZT stuff. WA: We weren't seeing a lot of side effects with AZT. The drug that we saw the most side effects was Crixivan. And that came on later. And the reason that we were trying to figure this out was why are we suddenly -- what's going on with this drug. And so I asked Dr. Woodward. I said, "When you're signing death certificates," they always, both of them, he and Bob, Dr. Jones, always put HIV/AIDS as the third. They never put it as the primary. Never. They were putting on a cardiac problem for a lot of them. And it was because Crixivan was causing heart tissue to be eaten. So they put it as primary cause of death [cardiomyelogamies?]. Second was tertiary was always HIV/AIDS. So the parents never had to worry, if they had insurance policies, that it would be refused. And that was a good thing about our docs. And our docs were very good. I mean I'm not a registered nurse but I could do rounds with him. He would give me orders over the phone. I'd write them in. And there was never a problem. LB: Was insurance denying HIV/AIDS care in those days? Talk about that a little bit. Was that something that would happen? WA: What's that? LB: Insurance denial of care. WA: Yeah. Yeah, there were certain companies that flat out would say -- it's like if you see the ads they have now when they say there's no medical questions. Like if you're looking at life insurance. Every one that I've got, the first question is have you been diagnosed with HIV slash AIDS. It's the first question. It's a medical question. So really? I mean no medical question? Do you smoke, do you drink? They're all medical questions. Come on, insurance company. Really? It's a medical question. And I wonder what would happen if someone would check yes. You know what I'm saying? That could be a bit of a -- oh, well, no, we're not allowing you to -- excuse me one second. My doctor. Hello. Yes. All right, thank you. Bye-bye. Okay. LB: I guess what happens is that insurance companies won't insure you for a preexisting condition except for that now you can't do that under the American Care Act as long as we continue to have that act. WA: Right. LB: Yeah. But that wasn't in place in those days. And people need (inaudible). WA: No. LB: Because whoever is seeing this video, hopefully people will look at this. But 30 years from now when both you and I are long gone, or 40 years or 50 years, people are going to look at this and see what we're saying about that time. And they may not understand that people weren't covered under insurance for preexisting conditions. WA: That's right. LB: Let's see. When you were talking about Saint Joe's, what's Saint Joe's? That's a Catholic hospital? WA: Saint Joseph's was a Catholic hospital in Reading. And Dr. Woodward was on staff there. But the primary amount of our -- if they were local -- were being seen by Dr. Benedictis and Dr. Jones because Dr. D was one of the first infectious disease doctors to get into the field. Dr. Woodward came in later. But the majority of them ended up at Reading for some odd reason. And Saint Joseph's would never refuse. The good sisters would be like, "No. We're not going to play the refuse game." I mean I have to say that Eric got excellent care at Saint Joe's. I was very pleased with his care. And sadly, when Leo who was one of the guys, ended up in Reading with Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia I don't know what the problem was but the nurses were just kind of like, "He's in that room. If you need anything just let us know. We'll hand it to you." Because I stayed. I did an overnight with him. I worked three to eleven and then I went to the hospital. Because his partner was a good friend of mine. I knew JR for a while. And JR was out West. And I said, "You need to come home because something's up with Leo and I don't know what, I don't know when, I don't know how, but he's in Reading right now." So I stayed overnight. And I must have changed his bedsheets, I'm going to guesstimate, five or six times during the night from the sweats from the meds they were giving him. And he said, "I want to come home. I want to come home. I don't want to die here." And I thought okay, how am I going to handle this, because I don't know what to say to him. And I said, "Let me work on that." That was my out. Because I figured. So I went to work the next day and I said to Sister Mary, "Have you heard from Dr. Benedictis at all about what's going on with Leo?" She said, "Yeah. They got him cleared up." Like two days later he was back with us. But his stay was shortened. So JR had gone on a business trip and I said, "You need to come back." I said, "He's on his way. He's transitioning. And I need you to get here because he's asking for you." LB: He got some kind of infection or something? Was that it? WA: Just residual of the pneumonia. But not as bad. I mean they didn't have to tube him when he was in the hospital, thank God, he wasn't on a vent. Because one of the things that was automatically declared when you entered Rainbow Home was you were a do not resuscitate/do not intubate. They already had to sign DNR/DNI. LB: So most people who went to Rainbow Home were pretty much at the end of their lives then. WA: Yeah. We had a few that even after they closed there, there are two that are still floating around in the area that are doing quite well. And that's when all these wonder drugs came out in the late '90s. But before that it was a mess. LB: It was. Let's see. So were you having funerals there? Did you have anybody that would do the funerals for you or stuff like that? WA: We did. We did. Jay Gilbert was one. Jay is very good. Anyone from the Lehigh Valley. Now as far as in Reading I really don't remember who they were, because I just remember Jay's name floating around a lot. If they were from up this way. I'm sure there were one or two down in Reading that were really good about that. Because they knew who we were and what we were. LB: Yeah. People have told me that I should try to talk to Jay Gilbert. And I haven't had a chance to contact him yet. But apparently he did loads of funerals for people and he was very generous too and didn't charge people or didn't charge people much. WA: Yeah. LB: Must have been hard. It must have been very hard to have people dying and knowing that that was going to happen to people for you. Did that take its toll? Well, apparently it did. But sounded like you did it for a long time. It was really wonderfully gracious of you. WA: Yeah, I mean there were times when I would come home from work. And if we had someone who was actively dying -- and Brenda was on -- for the first two years Brenda was all alone, and then they put a second staff member on. So I had a pager at that point. And I'm like, "Just page me if it gets too crazy." And it only happened two or three times. But I always share this one -- and it is funny. Two of the guys wanted to go to Washington. And two of us were Roman and one was Episcopalian. Dale was the Episcopalian. Tommy and I were the Romans. Well, we went to the basilica shrine for Mass. And it was the high Mass. So you've got the full procession with the incense and everything, right? And Dale being ever Dale, as the thurible bearer was coming by swinging the incense, he looked and he goes, "Mary, I love your dress but your purse is on fire." Not loud. Not loud. Just loud enough for the thurible bearer to hear this. And I'm like, "Oh." And there's this big mosaic of Jesus with his hands up with this angry look. And I'm like, "Oh God, this is it, here comes the lightning bolt." And Tommy looked at him and he goes, "What did you just say?" I'm like, "Don't ask." So when we got back everyone's like, "How was it?" And I'm like, "Ah, it was interesting." So I pulled Sister Mary aside and I said, "Oh by the way, if you get a call from the basilica this (inaudible)." And she just swore and she goes, "Oh God." I'm like, "That's about what I was saying under my breath." Bill had a lot of anger when he first came. And I said, "What can I do to help you get rid of your anger?" And he said, "Just get me out of here for a day." Well, he was still able to walk. So I said, "Okay. How about we go to the mall?" So I drove him down to King of Prussia from Reading and it was close to Mother's Day and I said, "Mother's Day is coming up, how about we get your mom a card and a gift?" Because they would hold funds for them in case they wanted to do something like that. He goes, "Okay." So we got him a card. And his mom loved Oscar de la Renta, the fragrance. So we got her a small bottle of Oscar. And they wrapped it. And then we had the Mother's Day party. And his mother looked at me and she goes, "It's been eighteen years since I've gotten a card, let alone a gift, from my son. What did you do to him?" I said, "We went for a ride. And I endured an hour and a half of rock music." I wanted to take the radio out of the car and just throw it. Because I'm like, "Okay. If I hear one more screaming in my ear I'm going to scream." If I ever do write a book, it's going to be the fun stories. With a little of the sadness in, just to make people realize we are human. LB: Well, feel free to tell me some of the fun stories, because I'd love to hear those now. That's a great one, that's a wonderful one. WA: Well, I think probably one of the toughest ones for me, and I had a few, was I went down to Jersey to do an assessment on a potential resident. And David was in a nursing home in Atlantic City, so you can picture a nursing home is already not a good sign. So I go in and here's David, six-one, six-two. Dark brown hair, jet-blue eyes. Laying in a bed. And I'm like, "What's up with this?" I said, "Do they get you out of bed?" "No." "Do they give you a shower at all?" "When they feel like it." I said, "Are you getting your meds?" "Sometimes." "On time?" "No." "Okay." Now I have to remember I am not a professional nurse. So I can't go out and raise holy you-know-what because that's not going to sit well. All right. So I get the chart. I get the information I need. I get in the car. I get on my phone. I talk to the social worker first. I say, "Get Sister Mary on the phone." And I said, "Mary, we've got to get him up there. Okay. We have got to get him up there." Well, he had been in bed so long that he couldn't walk. They weren't doing any PT or anything. So when the visiting nurse came out I said, "Can I do some range of motion with him just like abduction, adduction, move up, move down, move sidewards?" She goes, "Oh yeah." I said, "Okay." Said, "David, what is one of your goals?" And we always asked them what goals they had because we wanted it to be very integral. Not this is what we're going to do, deal with it. And he goes, "I want to get to church, I want to be able to stand and get in a car even if it's from a wheelchair. I don't care." I said, "Okay, bro, fasten your seatbelts, because I'm your primary care provider. So guess what we're going to be doing." So after his shower we get back in bed, after he was dried off and dressed, and we would do PT. And then I would get a walker and we didn't go long distances but just enough to -- so the Christmas party was coming up. And I said, "What are you going to do for your mom and dad?" He said, "Well, I have a card and a gift." He says, "But I want to walk in the room even if it's with a walker." I said, "Okay, you've got a goal. And we've got time. So let's see if we can make this happen." All right. Christmas party comes. Sure as gunfires, he goes, "Okay." I said, "I'll take you to the door. And you walk in. And I have a chair right next to your mom and dad." And I said reserved. I put a little reserved sign. "So that way you can sit with them for the Christmas party." He goes, "Okay." So the door was closed. And I opened the door. And I said, "Okay. I'm not taking the chair in unless you feel you need it. And you're technically right inside the door like 10 steps." He gets up. He holds on. I said, "Remember. Look up, don't look down. You want central force." Walks in. And his mom and dad are talking and other people are chatting with them. And all of a sudden his mom looks up and she goes, "Uh, he's walking." And his dad looked. He said, "What do you mean he's walking?" "He's walking." And I'm like, "Bye, Merry Christmas. Surprise." She goes, "What did you do?" I said, "What did we do. I just gave him the incentive." New Year's Eve I was going out with my family for New Year's Eve, but I wanted to stop over and wish all the guys and gals a happy New Year. And I was dressed to the nines. I was in black full dress, tails, I was like, "Okay, I'm going out." His aunt, who was a nursing supervisor at Saint Joseph's, and three of his nieces -- I graduated from high school with two of them -- they were sitting in there and were having this cheese tray with [baked champagne?] and they walk in there like oh my God, what are you doing here. I said, "I work here." And David goes, "He's the one that got me to walk and he's the one that bathed me and he's the one that you know," and they're like, "Oh my God." I said, "Welcome, small world, isn't it, gang?" It was a Sunday morning and David always rang to get up about 7:30. I'm like, "Okay, he's not ringing." I'm like, "Well, it's Sunday, let him sleep in." And something in my inside was going like, "Mm, no. Something's not right here." I said, "Are you okay, Dave?" He goes, "I don't feel good." And something told me to lift the sheets and look at his feet. They were as purple as could be. I'm like, "Oh. Okay. I'll be back." I went, I said to Bev, "Uh, Dave is starting the (inaudible) process. So I'm getting the morphine ready if we need it. I'm going to call his parents and say, 'Take your time, it's not imminent, but get the family together because we've started the journey.'" And I went back in. I said, "Are you having any pain?" He goes, "No." Said, "Okay." So every two hours I would just go in and say, "Everything fine?" He said, "I'm really not feeling good now." I said, "Okay. I'm going to start the morphine." And we put it right in the buccal cavity. It was with dropper. It was liquid. So it wasn't intravenously. And he's like, "Can you do me one little favor?" I said, "David, if I can make it happen I got you covered." "I don't want to die laying down." And I'm thinking okay, how else are we -- and I thought okay. I said, "Well, let me see what I can come up with to make that happen." I'm like, "Think quick, Bill. Because we're getting there." So he goes, "You know what song I want you to play while you and I are sitting here having our last whatever time together." And I'm like, "Really? Madonna doing 'Don't Cry for Me Argentine (sic)?'" He goes, "Yes." I'm like, "Okay." So I get the portable tape player and I get the disc and I put it in. And he goes, "I'm ready." I said, "Okay." Gave him a kiss and said, "It's been a fun experience. I'll remember you for as long as I live." And he goes, "Can you just like kind of put me on your right shoulder?" I'm like, "Sure." I'm not going to kill him for God's sake. So I just scooped him up and looked over and said, "Enjoy the ride. Is the morphine working?" "Yes." Went to sleep. That was it. So for six months after no one was allowed to hug me on the right side. I said, "I'm sorry, that's reserved for David." LB: Sweet. WA: You know. And his parents, his dad had just retired the year before from the marine corps as a lieutenant colonel. And I thought Dad is going to be a toughie. And Dad was just the opposite. We only had one family that really didn't want anything to do with their son. And I called them when he started actively dying and said, "Are you going to come visit?" "Well, of course we are." I said, "Well, someone wrote on the admission paper." And this was how it was worded. When he kicks the bucket don't call us. And I said, "He has two brothers, right?" They're like, "Yeah." I said, "Well, where's the other one?" "We don't know." And he was the one that wrote it. But I decided I was going to call the family anyway. Because I was thinking legally if I didn't it could really have turned into a mess. So yeah. LB: So they were okay? They came. WA: Oh yeah. They were fine. They were fine. In fact they were very thankful that I did that, because they were able to get him. They made him physically come. They called him. Because he lived locally. And the dad is like, "You get over here or I'm going to come get you." And I said, "Please. The house is very upset. Because that was the night I had three deaths an hour apart. LB: Oh gosh. WA: He was number two. So I had three actively going at once. And my coworker, she was the best. Bev said, "You take care of the three, I'll take care of the other nine." Because three of them that lived on the other side of our meeting room, party room, whatever, they had to be able to come over, get their meds, take their meds, etc. The guys on our side and our gals were more acute. They were more independent. They did their own laundry, made their own beds, got their own meds. We would give them to them out. But they had to remember to come get them. LB: And what kind of meds were you giving people then? Was this in the eighties or was it mostly -- what kind of (inaudible). WA: Primarily their HIV/AIDS but also some of them would have weight loss. There were two drugs. There was Marinol which was synthetic marijuana, but it did not give them a buzz or get them high, it only stimulated the part of the brain that said, "You need to eat." So there were no side effects. They didn't get high or get a buzz. But they did get the munchies, which was okay. The other one was Megace acetate, which was a liquid, and that was to help with -- morphine for pain. Their antiretrovirals for their HIV/AIDS. And weight gain if they needed it. And there weren't too many. The good news is that we never really lost a lot of them in a very cachexic state. They weren't skin and bones. So we were lucky in that because our docs were really on top of that kind of stuff. And the visiting nurses that came out were absolutely -- we had the same nurse. But if she was off they had backup. But the night that I had the three going, I had three nurses, because one nurse couldn't handle three situations. And they were like, "How are you?" I said, "Oh, I'm just jim-freaking-dandy. I'm going home tonight and I'm having a very stiff drink, maybe two." And they had a therapist for us. Because once a month we would have a meeting to talk about how we felt in the midst of losing all these guys and gals. So that mentally we were okay. But I knew when Tommy died. I said, "Okay, that's it." And not that we counted intentionally, but when I left the administrator said -- usually -- I was told -- because I was going to work at Saint Vincent's in New York. And the sister in charge of the floor said, "After five years you have to go out for a year. You can't stay in here all the time. It's a five-year term and then you have to go somewhere in the hospital for a year and then you can come back." Well, I did it for seven. But I just said, "I can't do this anymore." It started to get to me psychologically and physically. LB: (inaudible) the administrator was going to give you a number? WA: I took care of two hundred sixty-seven. And if (inaudible). LB: (inaudible). WA: Yeah, it was, it was rough. And I had joined -- they are no longer, but I had become a member of the National Catholic AIDS Network or NCAN and we would meet every summer in Chicago at Loyola University on the lake. And we would have workshops, we would have time to just share our stories. But what was really wonderful was the one year -- Cardinal Bernardin was in charge of the archdiocese at that time and very well known for being a compassionate cardinal. Really made other people within the Roman rite look kind of like why aren't you doing this. So he just showed up in regular clerics with his secretary and he went table to table and said, "What do you do? Where do you do it? How are you doing? What can I do for you?" I mean this is a man that could have been the next pope. And that was the night of our memorial service. So that year they asked us to bring a photo if we wanted to of someone that we lost and we loved. And they did a foot washing in the chapel. And ironically the name of the chapel in Latin is La Madonna della Strada, Our Lady of the Streets. And all the music was Taize. So the deal was the person to your right was the person that you would do foot washing with so you would wash each other's feet. Well, the chair was blank. I'm like, "Okay, someone didn't come." All of a sudden who comes over and sits down but the cardinal? So the cardinal and I. And that was the year that Jeffrey passed away, my best friend. He was a hairdresser. He had a very good business in Washington, DC. So Jeff's black-and-white photo went with me. Somewhere on my wall -- no. It's on my other wall right above me. I have a collage of four of the guys that I took care of that really taught me a lot. So once in a while I'll just look up and say, "You guys okay up there?" So far I'm not hearing any bad things. So yeah. LB: Yeah. How old were you in the eighties? WA: Geez, well, I'm sixty-seven now, so I would say in my fifties, I had to be in my fifties. Late forties, early fifties, I -- at this point (inaudible) twenty-six, fifty-one, let's see. LB: It was thirty-five years ago, honey? WA: Huh. LB: It was thirty-five years ago. WA: Yeah, what can I tell you? That'll be an edit. LB: It's okay. I think one of the things is we forget when you're a grown-up and you're doing things like that we forget that it was a long time ago when we were kids in a lot of ways, we were in our (inaudible) thirties. What did you say, you're sixty-seven now? You were born in nineteen -- WA: I was born in fifty-one. Rainbow Home opened in nineteen-ninety and it closed in -- LB: So you were forty, yeah. Would have been thirty-nine when it opened and (inaudible). WA: And Ozzie, who had one of the local bars, Ozzie and I were responsible for getting the first AIDS walk in Reading going. And we worked with -- oh, I can't. Her son, what's the name of the farm? Who did you -- LB: Rodale. Ardath Rodale. WA: Yeah, we worked with -- yeah. LB: Talking to Maria Rodale about Ardath Rodale. WA: To do the first AIDS walk in Reading. LB: (inaudible) oh yeah, okay, yeah. Yeah, because the farm is in Berks County after all. So yeah. WA: Yeah, because back then it was Berks AIDS Network and they were there first and then Rainbow Home came in. Yeah. LB: Yeah, it's all related. Everybody's sort of interrelated within that. Because everybody was aware of what was happening to each other and stuff. WA: Right. LB: In about nineteen ninety-three, which is about the middle of the time that you were at Rainbow House, medication really changed. And in ninety-three the worst part about the epidemic really started to fall back a little bit because there were actually drugs that could really prolong people's lives, it wasn't so much of a death sentence. Were you noticing a change then? What was it like? WA: Yeah. Well, for us it was really great because we had them longer. And for the most part they were doing very well on them. And that was thanks to like ACT UP and other organizations that were really getting up in the face of these drug companies and saying, "Why are you putting these on hold forever?" And then finally when they started to come out we noticed that our guys were doing a whole lot better. They were gaining weight. Mentally they were in much better shape. I mean there were a few that we had to give antidepressants to because it was just -- the docs wanted them on something light. I mean it was Ativan, it wasn't anything major, like a lot of antipsychotics, but we noticed that -- and their thriveto survive was -- they didn't look at it as -- they would say, "I'm going to beat this. I'm going to beat this because now we've got the drugs." But it took them forever to get those drugs out. It was only when people started acting up in the streets and saying, "Hey, listen, we've got friends and lovers and family members dying like no tomorrow, what are you going to do about it?" LB: Yeah. Did you ever go to any of those ACT UP things in New York? WA: I did not. I didn't get up to New York because I was doing my own stuff down here. The one year the bishop of the Catholic diocese had an anointing service at DeSales and he said, "It's open to everyone." So I took a couple of the guys up. And afterwards I said, "Um, how come you never visit?" Question mark. And he goes, "I don't have time." I said, "Oh. Really? Oh. Okay." Because here's the interesting thing. We had a priest in the house as a patient. And [Claude?], father, had surgery. And he got bad blood. This is before they were doing the big testing. And he was from the Diocese of Camden. So he came up, great guy, we all loved padre, and every morning I would get him up, we did his a.m. care, gave him his meds. And then he and I would go into our multipurpose room and he would do Mass. LB: So he was a priest that was at Rainbow House. WA: Uh-huh. But when I needed someone anointed [they don't bother?]. I had his oils. And I said -- LB: Wow. WA: Can you do a quick anointing? He goes, "Yeah." So when he was actively dying he went to Saint Joseph's Hospital. Because Dr. [Crisp?] was following him. And when I went up and I said to one of the nurses, "Has he received anointing yet?" They're like, "No." I said, "Well, can we get a priest to do this?" I said, "He is a priest, I'd really like another priest to give him anointing at least." "I can't get anyone. We've tried several parishes." I said, "Really? Okay." So I called my priest at Holy Rosary. And that was monsignor. And I said, "Listen, here's the situation." It wasn't late at night. He goes, "I'm on my way." And he came up and he gave him sacraments. And I said, "Thank you." So his funeral was in Jersey, so Sister Carol Ann and I decided that we were going to be the militant Catholics at his funeral. So we go, we have our little Rainbow Home pins on. And we always pinned our guys when they left us on their [paths?]. And we would say to the undertaker, "If the family wants it, great, or if you're going to bury him with it, great, but please make sure it doesn't get tossed." Well, I put it far enough down on the side where I didn't think anyone would see it. Well, the bishop did and he said to his secretary, "This is not part of the liturgical vestment." And I just happened to be in ear range. And I said, "Would you please leave that there?" He goes, "Well, that's a rainbow." I said, "Look at it from the biblical end of it." And he left it. So afterwards Sister Carol Ann went up and she said, "You never came to visit him. Why?" "Well, we don't have time to do stuff like that." She goes, "No, but there could be you and twenty-three priests on the altar for his burial." "Well, I could have the local bishop close you down because of the way you're talking to me." She goes, "Oh, please go for it." Nothing ever happened. LB: Wow, I'm sure not. WA: I looked at him and I said, "And this is how you teach compassion (inaudible) bishop." And off we went. I said, "Well, we're probably going to get a phone call." Nothing ever happened. Because years later when you looked at what happened with the pedophilia and they all knew about it it was like oh, look at the names of the -- mm-hmm. Years later. Even though it wasn't HIV/AIDS-related. LB: Yeah, I don't think everybody understands that there's five lobbyists for the Catholic Church in Harrisburg that keep LGBT-inclusive laws or other kinds of inclusive things happening. The Catholic Church pays them to keep those -- to lobby for the lack of inclusion of equal rights laws and stuff. And it's a shame. It's a shame (inaudible) happening. But so we're not running out of time, we still got plenty of time, but I wondered if you wanted to talk anything about how you see the relationship of HIV/AIDS and the epidemic then and what you were doing and its relationship to what's happening now with COVID-19. What do you think about that? WA: Well, I mean I think we need to be aware that this COVID-19 is very nasty. And we have to really look at our brothers and sisters that are HIV-positive and even with the meds they're immunosuppressed as it is. And this could really knock the socks off of them. They could end up in the hospitals and in ICUs and on vents. So it's best for anyone that's immunosuppressed to just stay bunkered down until this is all dealt with in a fashion where if there's a vaccine that the vaccine can be given. But make sure when they do the trials on this that it's not going to really hurt anyone that's immunosuppressed whether it's with HIV/AIDS, cancer, or anything else. And those of us that are healthy really need to check in if we know someone and say, "Do you have enough food? Do you have enough water? Are you okay on your medications?" And David, who's my best friend, David and I are both on the board of FACT. So we're very mindful of that. But I think that's what we need to do. I think we really need to just look out for each other and make sure that our brothers and sisters that are immunosuppressed have everything that they need and that they're not forgotten. LB: Yeah. Definitely true. WA: I think that's very very important. And we as a community need to stand strong. This is the first year we haven't had a Pride celebration. LB: Well, they're going to do it virtually, aren't they? WA: Yeah. So virtual is virtual. Next year we'll be in full swing. LB: Yeah. So we have about fourteen minutes left. But I would love for you to think about somebody's going to see this thirty years, forty years from now. And you have an opportunity to talk to the future here. Go into the future and tell people what you think they really should know about the HIV/AIDS epidemic. And maybe even talk about -- some people -- and I think David talked about this, but other people that I've interviewed, because I think you're the sixth interview I've done, they're talking about the lack of recognition by elected officials about it for so many years that it was very painful. And you have any insight on that? And then also just to tell people what they should know about this time. WA: Well, as far as the -- I think David covered it pretty good with the elected officials. That for so many years it was ignored. And it's like it's their disease, let them deal with it. Then when it started to hit everyone else okay, now we have to do something about it. I would say to the future generations look back at what everyone went through regardless of gender, gender identification, status, etc. How we as a community taught others that if you all work for the common good something good will come out of an absolutely horrific pandemic, where we were losing brilliant minds. I'm going to share a couple of the guys as far as their names and what they did because I think for future generations the name and what they did is something that they need to know. And it's first names. I mean it's going to be first names. Andy had a double doctorate in chemical physics. Brilliant mind. Larry was the chief tie department buyer for Lord &amp ; Taylor. Rich had his own fashionwear. It was called Poshwear. Jeff was a well known hairdresser in the Washington area. David was a top-notch chef. Leo was a member of the United States Navy with honorable discharge. So he served his country before Don't Ask, Don't Tell. Let me see who else. Danny had a business, was an Irish tenor, so at his funeral I had a friend of mine who's an Irish tenor come in and do "Danny Boy." These are the people that really had great lives ahead of them and sadly we lost them too young and at a fast rate. If you get a chance, future generations, to see any part of the quilt, the quilt will tell the stories. You don't have to know them. We had a quilt showing our fifth anniversary at Rainbow Home at Albright. And we took in an extremely high amount of new quilts. The guys from NAMES Project were like, "We've never had this many at such a small gathering." Well, surprise. Because we were making them. We did a house quilt every year. And the last official quilt showing, several of us from both Berks AIDS Network and Rainbow Home went to Washington and we were quilt monitors. And then myself and two others also did grief counseling. So that was really a fulfilling moment because we had four blocks that we were covering for grief counseling. And if I would see a family sitting there just kind of like not saying anything, very quiet, I would just gently lean down usually to the mom and say, "Do you mind if I just sit here a minute with you in silence? And then if you want, tell me a story about your loved one, tell me. Is it your son? Who was it?" And even through the tears they would come out of tears and they would just like go into this wonderful story about their son or their daughter. And that would give us a chance to get to know them other than what was on the quilt. And making those quilts for us as staff members and volunteers was a way for us to move on so that psychologically and physically we could keep doing the work that we were doing. Because we would check in on each other constantly after a death. We had a quick staff meeting to make sure that everybody was doing okay. Because our counselor would say, "If you need to talk after a death you know where I am." So I hope that they never have to face any kind of pandemic like this, this current -- or the pandemic of HIV/AIDS. But if they do, get involved. Don't sit on the sidelines. That's it. LB: This has really been terrific, Bill. I bet you have a million more stories to tell. And I hope you do write a book about this, because I think you're brilliant as far as that goes. WA: I hope to do that. I hope to do that. Sometime if I can find someone who's willing to -- I know that Kelly is working on seeing if there's someone at Muhlenberg that might want to take that on. LB: To write a book about it? WA: Kelly is a friend of ours. He's a professor. LB: Yeah, Kelly Cannon, yeah. WA: You know Kelly? LB: Yeah. I know. Sure. You mean to write a book about it. WA: To see if someone would be interested in sitting down and working with me on getting the book written. LB: Great idea. This interview will be archived at Muhlenberg, and Muhlenberg has a lot of our -- all the artifacts and stuff. Because we kept all of the stuff when we produced the Valley Gay Press and when we produced -- at all the Pride festivals and a lot of the early Reading Pride festival stuff. Because I had all that stuff. So that's all in the archives at Muhlenberg now. If you have anything like that that you want to go into those archives that's like paper stuff or things that you don't know who would take care of later in life, that Muhlenberg archives will take that stuff. WA: Well, that's good to know. One quick note. I wrote an article about my journey with David. And it got into the NAMES Project when they used to send out the letter, the little -- and then about two years after that, the one doctor that would write back about my journey asked me if he could put that in a book that he and another doctor were writing. So I signed all the documents yes, you have my okay to do this. And then he sent me a copy and he signed it. And there was the little Post-it note. See page six. LB: Oh, great. WA: So that's where the article was. LB: It's great. WA: And somehow in one of my moves I can't find the book and I'm going crazy because I've got to find it. But I still have the story. So if it's okay I'll make a copy. LB: Sure. WA: And get it to you. LB: Great. You can get it to me. I'll send you the information. But you can send it to me right at the LGBT Community Center. They'll put it on my desk when it comes in. We're not really open right now. But I'll send you the contact information. And then I can get it over. Actually right now lots of people are cleaning up because they're stuck at home. So they're finding boxes and boxes of stuff that they want. And we're amassing a lot of those things in the vestibule, in the foyer, of our community center. Stacks of boxes there. And we found two more boxes of things. So it's all stuff that needs to go to -- because we don't want people to forget this, and one of the things they do at Muhlenberg is that they digitally make it so that people can find it online. They don't have to go through every single piece of paper or something. And it's all cross-referenced. It's really brilliant. It's going to be taking a long time for them to do this but it's wonderful that they're doing it, so it's a big deal. WA: Cool. LB: Yeah, it is. So (inaudible) you have anything else you want to say that you think oh, I should have added this in or -- WA: No, but thank you for the opportunity to share my story and my journey through the pandemic and this current -- and I hope that people will listen to the stories that have been told and really think about what's the right thing to do for anything that will come down the road. And if they know someone that is HIV-positive that they will keep them as friends and not treat them as an outcast. We're all God's children. We all deserve to be loved. Whether we're male, female, nonbinary, whatever you want to go by. Accept them for who they are and love them for who they are. Because love should be unconditional. Not if you're this I don't want anything to do with you. LB: Well, this has just been wonderful, Bill. I'm so glad I got to talk to you. I'm so glad David told me to get in touch with you. This is really a wonderful set of stories and very upbeat and very inspirational. So thank you so much. And thank you so much for all the work you did in taking care of all those people that really needed somebody. They needed a friend and they needed somebody who cared and you were there for them. How terrific of you. It's a really good karma. WA: Thank you. And thank you for taking the time to do this. I look forward to hearing feedback from others when this is all done (inaudible) you in person at some time somewhere. LB: I've been at every Reading Pride festival. So I'm always there and will be online watching it this year. But I've also been at every Pride festival at Lehigh Valley as well. So it's part of my thing to have a booth at those. What will happen now is that once this is done and I've uploaded it, they send the transcripts to a program at another college where they have interns who will transcribe it into writing. And then (inaudible) to see it and you can read through it. And you can see the video too. But that takes about 30 days because it takes them a while to do this. And then you can read through it and decide if there is anything that you want to change or strike or rearrange or something. But I have to say that this has just been extraordinarily terrific. So thank you so much for this. And I'm sure everyone will feel this way. So thank you. WA: Thank you. LB: Thanks a lot. And take care, okay? Don't go outside. WA: You too. LB: Bye-bye. WA: Bye-bye. END OF AUDIO FILE Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source.&#13 ; 0 /render.php?cachefile= Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:29:29 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William Aull, June 29, 2020 Description An account of the resource Bill Aull, for many years a caregiver at the Rainbow Home near Reading, PA, shares his experiences during the height of the AIDS epidemic in the 1980s and 1990s. He reflects on specific patients, the role of Catholic Church in AIDS care, and the operations and services of Rainbow Home. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PH40_04 Subject The topic of the resource AIDS (Disease) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2020-06-29 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright remains with the interview subject and their heirs.