Christine Penn, May 8, 2022

Christine Penn, May 8, 2022

Christine Penn recalls her early/family life and relationship with gender, as well as her experiences with transgender positive communities online and in-person.

Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives

Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives

2022-05-08

Copyright remains with the interview subject and their heirs.

video

LGBT-32

Nadia Butler

Christine Penn

01:37:26

5.4 May 8, 2022 Christine Penn, May 8, 2022 LGBT-32 1:37:26 LVLGBT-2022 Stories of Lehigh Valley LGBTQ+ Community Members (2022 - ) Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository Support for the collection of this interview was provided by the American Council of Learned Societies (ACLS). trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Christine Penn Nadia Butler video/mp4 PennChristine_20220508_videotrimmed 1.0:|47(13)|82(4)|107(12)|136(2)|161(5)|188(4)|211(11)|234(8)|259(9)|286(12)|313(9)|338(8)|359(2)|382(14)|407(14)|436(8)|463(13)|492(18)|513(13)|542(5)|565(4)|590(9)|623(8)|646(11)|677(3)|700(4)|721(11)|742(9)|771(4)|796(7)|821(13)|848(11)|875(7)|906(14)|927(13)|952(7)|975(14)|998(9)|1029(4)|1056(3)|1081(13)|1108(10)|1133(3)|1154(6)|1173(12)|1202(9)|1219(17)|1242(6)|1265(12)|1294(4)|1317(12)|1342(9)|1371(16)|1394(9)|1423(4)|1448(5)|1475(9)|1500(9)|1527(4)|1550(14)|1573(14)|1600(7)|1631(8)|1650(17)|1671(6)|1696(17)|1719(13)|1744(4)|1773(4)|1798(18)|1821(7)|1846(7)|1871(2)|1898(5)|1925(8)|1950(6)|1973(7)|1996(12)|2021(18)|2048(9)|2077(11)|2104(14)|2129(14)|2154(11)|2177(7)|2200(16)|2227(15)|2254(2)|2281(3)|2308(12)|2329(18)|2352(8)|2377(16)|2402(16)|2435(7)|2462(11)|2483(10)|2496(13) 0 https://youtu.be/7Q7MfSDEZ-8 YouTube video English 0 Interview Introductions NADIA BUTLER: Hello, my name is Nadia Butler, and I am here today with Christine Penn to talk about her life and experiences in LGBT organizations in the Lehigh Valley as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. Our project has funding from the ACLS. We are meeting on location on May 8th, 2022. Christine, thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. &#13 ; &#13 ; CHRISTINE PENN: You're welcome.&#13 ; &#13 ; NB: To start, can you please state your full name and spell it for me? &#13 ; &#13 ; CP: Christine Anne Penn, C-H-R-I-S-T-I-N-E, A-N-N-E, P-E-N-N. 0 81 Beginning to Cross-dress CP: That was the first time I basically considered cross-dressing. So, I went up to my mom's closet or whatever and started putting on her clothes, which obviously didn't fit very well. So, I was kind of tiny at the time. [laughs] So but that then started the behavior I would say of cross-dressing or whatever for the rest of my life. And up until later, obviously I don't consider that a cross dress anymore. And it's sort of weird or whatever. Just to me or whatever, it's like I have an issue or whatever with saying that, that I was cross-dressing, because to me, it wasn't really cross-dressing. I would say that was the only time I was right dressing.&#13 ; &#13 ; But at the time or whatever, since I was male, everybody would have seen this as cross-dressing. And later on, I actually found out that there was a term called cross dressers or whatever. So later on in my teenage years, I started telling a couple of people and I told them that I was a cross dresser because that's what I thought I was at the time, but anyway. 0 86 Early Childhood / Early Thoughts on Gender&#13 ; NB: So to begin, would you tell me about the early years of your life? Could you describe your childhood for us?&#13 ; &#13 ; CP: [laughs] Wow, sorry. I recognized that I was different at about four years old. It's my second earliest memory. So all of my early memories are based on like trauma, I guess you could say. So I was in a car accident when I was three years old. That's my first memory. It's the only time that I remember in my whole life that I was not feeling like I was transgender. I didn't know what it was at the time or whatever, but during that car accident, it was not an issue. Every point whatever forward from that point after that, I would say it's been an issue. [laughs] 0 504 Conversations with Parents about Gender CP: So, I call it being lazy, but really what it was, was a matter of convenience. What I didn't realize is that my grandmother would occasionally make the bed, flip the mattress and things like that. I didn't know that she was doing that stuff. So, I went to school one day, and she came in to basically change the sheets and flip the mattress. And when she did, she found my stash of clothes underneath, which then she told my mother about. [laughs] &#13 ; &#13 ; And then my mother decided to confront me about what it was, and she told me about it in the morning, on a school morning type of thing. And she said I want to have a conversation with you about the clothes that were underneath the mattress, and I'm like, oh shit, I'm dead. But she didn't have time to talk about it in the morning. So, she decided that we're going to talk about it in the evening when she got home from work. 0 784 Life During Puberty / The ACME Lady CP: So, for the most part 12 and 13, in that time frame, were pretty depressing for me. I just felt absolutely horrible. I had no idea what the hell I was going to do, the whole nine yards. And I wrote a story [laughs] about the ACME lady. It's one of my Medium stories. I recommend you read it. So when I was 13 -- so I had formed a theory when I was younger that basically it's like, I must have felt this way because maybe I had some internal female parts that just people couldn't see. &#13 ; &#13 ; And that's why the doctor declared me as male and instead of as female. So, I was hoping that puberty was going to save me. I would start developing breasts and start being the true woman or whatever that I was. And so I was really hoping that biology was going to save me. And when I was 13, I found out that my sister had already started puberty. So, puberty had not started for me. [laughs] So it turns out that there was something going on, and puberty got delayed on me for a long time. 0 1114 Schooling CP: But anyway, managed or whatever to get through high school. I kind of -- puberty sort of didn't really kick in or whatever until it's about 18 years old. It was a little bit of depressing to me. I wanna say it was -- I don't want you to get the wrong impression, whatever I wanna say ii was like maybe slightly helpful, because at least whatever I was now fitting better in with the boys. &#13 ; &#13 ; So, at least I was now looking more like a boy, which then made life a little bit easier. In one ways it made life easier because now I wasn't standing out as much because now I looked a little bit more manly. It didn't help with my internal [laughs] at all, so it's like not really th direction that I wanted to go in at all. But at that point in time or whatever it was like, there was a lot of information or whatever I was not familiar with at the time, I really wish I was, there was no internet, things like that or whatever. 0 1382 Sexuality CP: So, I quickly found out that was like I was curious [laughs] I've had lots of feelings or whatever. My whole, let's say attraction thing or whatever had flipped. So, when I was going through, let's say the 12, 13, and 14, I had a real attraction to boys. And quite I had a crush on somebody on my track team in 10th grade, it's like [laughs]. &#13 ; &#13 ; I never told anybody this or whatever, but I'd be like I'd go gay for you, that's how hot he was and how much he like turned me on. But I would never do anything about it. It's like that would have been like social death to basically come out or whatever and ask a guy out or whatever and as you're being seen as a guy or whatever, that's just never was happening. When puberty kinda kicked in, it flipped. It flipped for me. So, at eighte -- like around 17 to 18 or whatever, all of a sudden whatever, I started liking girls. 0 1532 Finding Community to Confide In / UCLA LGBT Group&#13 ; NB: You mentioned talking about your childhood that you grew up around Philadelphia and stuff, and you also had two siblings. I'm curious, did you have anyone aside from the grocery lady who you confided about these feelings?&#13 ; &#13 ; CP: I did not, no, so, and I really didn't confide with the grocery lady at all. She just basically thought that I was a girl, and I just loved the interaction. So, really I didn't confide in anybody, that was a secret or whatever, and I was deeply held or whatever and wasn't gonna tell a soul type of thing. So I would have liked to have confided it to my parents, but as I said or whatever, that thing did not go well. 0 2012 Considering a Name Change CP: Immediately I was like, oh my God, these people have the same experience that I had. And we started really connecting or whatever. And then they asked me what my name was, and I was like, I didn't have one at the time. So, they were like, great, we'll help you figure one out or whatever, what we'll call you or whatever. And they were like, do you know what your parents would have named you or whatever, if you were born a girl? And I'm like, yeah, I do. They would have named me Kathleen, and they're like, great, do you love it? Do you like it or whatever? It's like, maybe you should go with that. 0 2257 Writing Prospects / Trouble Finding a Steady Therapist CP: So, anyway, I kept in contact with these people for probably a couple of years. And later on, I was in the middle of a chat, and the moderator jumped in and he was finding the stories that we're talking about very interesting because it was like sharing life experiences or whatever. I was telling them about the ACME lady and other things or whatever that was going on. And the moderator said, you guys should really document your stories, you should start writing a book. So, nothing had existed yet. Who's that famous author, I can't think of her name, I can see her, the blond. &#13 ; &#13 ; NB: Tori Peters? &#13 ; &#13 ; CP: No, God, what the hell is her name? She basically released a book or whatever. I used to have it. I had to return it, [laughs]. She was probably the only sane person on Caitlyn Jenner -- when it was Caitlin or whatever. She's the writer, what's hell’s her name?&#13 ; &#13 ; NB: I know who you're talking about but it escapes me as well. 0 2635 The Birth of Christine Anne Penn / Finding Renaissance CP: So that's how Christine Anne Penn came about. So, Penn quite literally is appending, that was going to be my writing alias name. And because my original last name ended in two Ns, I added two Ns on the end of Penn as a tribute or whatever as a linkage or whatever, it's just sort of my original last name. And from that time forward started my alias of Christine Anne Penn. &#13 ; &#13 ; NB: And what year was this?&#13 ; &#13 ; CP: That was in, that was like in the 1999/2000 time frame is when Christine Anne Penn was born. And one of the first things I did was basically Hotmail, it just came onto the scene and I created an alias email address or whatever for me, so chrispenn

hotmail.com, I lost that email address later by the way. 0 3092 Struggle for Family's Acceptance&#13 ; CP: And at the six-month mark is when my wife and my parents kind of beat up on me and said, you can't do this. So, I was on a path to transition and I had come out publicly back then was not publicly as we know it today, there was no Facebook where you could make an announcement, there was no -- what you got, but that doesn't mean it didn't spread by word of mouth and things like that. I was having lots of problems in life, like I walked into a bar and this guy came up and was like, are you that panty wearing faggot? I’m like, oh, lovely. Like, who do you know? &#13 ; &#13 ; So, he knew my brother-in-law, my brother-in-law told him that I was transitioning, lovely. So I was having all sorts of issues like that or whatever, going in public or whatever and things like that. But the funny thing is that I was able to walk that back later when I did not transition, when I did not go through with it. 0 3571 Living Dual Lives NB: I'm wondering, you mentioned your wife and your kids, and you also mentioned the sense of your having like a split identity. Would you mind talking about that for us?&#13 ; &#13 ; CP: Sure, so, I basically associated the two behaviors, my behavior as male or whatever with my name, Christopher. And I associated my behaviors of what I did as female or whatever as associated with Christine and for the longest time or whatever, that was my life or whatever. It's like, quite literally, I had two lives. And for many years, whatever it's like during that 1999/2000 time frame or whatever, definitely had two lives going on. Then, two very active lives. 0 3784 Reaching the Boiling Point&#13 ; CP: And in 2015 I reached a boiling point, that was major. I want to say, it started in January. It started in January, and I was like, this is -- I had separated from my wife in November. And in January, I was starting to realize that all of those commitments that I made, about raising my kids and being the father to them and the husband to my wife. Kind of like, I met all those, they were done, it's like my kids were now, my daughter was in college, my son was about to graduate high school. It was obviously -- my marriage was falling apart, with my wife we were now separated, and I'm like you've met all these commitments or whatever you're done, you don't need to live up to that commitment that you made anymore.&#13 ; &#13 ; And I started thinking about that in January of 2015, and I was like, I don't know, I'm now older, and like is HRT even gonna still work, you know? Do I wanna totally upset my life or whatever and so on and so forth. And I would say for a good five months whatever, I was like, I don't know if I can do this, I'm too old, I have established a life. 0 4461 Finding Hope / Searching for a Therapist with Gender-related Knowledge CP: Just get back to the truck, and drive to the bridge and fucking end it. That's quite literally, that was the mode, that was the mindset I was in. It's like, I've had it, I cannot, I don't wanna even think about it anymore, it's not even worth working out or whatever, and so on and so forth. And my mind was just driving me fucking crazy and I decided to turn on a song. I had my phone with me and on my phone I had music, and I decided to just turn on some music or whatever just to get me back to the truck, and a song came on and that song changed my way. &#13 ; &#13 ; That song is Peter Gabriel’s “Don't Give Up”. And I wrote this down in another Medium story [laughs]. The words to that song connected with me on that day. So believe it or not, this has actually been documented now. The Medium story that I wrote was actually referenced by a paper in the UK. They used it as an example of how many different people that this song has helped, in suicidal situations. Because essentially what I did is I documented how I felt that day, and what I was thinking about how that song saved me. 0 5003 Health / Impact of Sports on Life CP: Oh yeah, absolutely. Sports has been a major thing in my life. So the whole transition and things like that, it's kinda like ignited this thing where it's like I needed to get control of my life. And getting control of my life basically, I changed a lot of things, and one of the things that I had changed is is that, I spent an awful lot of time going through marriage and things like that being sort of depressed.&#13 ; &#13 ; And I drank a lot, did a lot of what I would say bad behaviors or whatever and things like that. And so when I separated from my ex, one of the things I wanted to do was basically get control of my life or whatever, get healthy again and things like that. And it started getting back into my -- if you go all the way back to high school and even some college or whatever, is like I was always in into sports or whatever a little bit and I was like, I wanna get back into things. I really felt that kind of like -- it was somewhere I needed to be [laughs]. 0 5334 Finding Transgender Community in Cycling CP: So, they were struggling with, we don't know how to tell you how to deal with these things or whatever because we don't normally treat athletic people who are going through HRT, and things like that and that was leading to problem. And I was having a lot of problems that they couldn't explain. And the funny thing is that I know what a lot of them are now, but it's, [laughs] So I've been through one hell of a medical journey. [laughs] but eventually that led to me is that I got connected with a woman who was starting up a transgender cycling team and that opened up a world to me. 0 MovingImage Christine Penn recalls her early/family life and relationship with gender, as well as her experiences with transgender positive communities online and in-person. INTERVIEW WITH CHRISTINE PENN  MAY 8, 2022 Dear Reader, You may notice an issue trying to follow along watching the video or reading the transcript for this person. The repeating of the word "whatever" occurs frequently, as well as some incongruent thoughts smashed together. Christine Penn is aware of these issues and seeking treatment for them. Please do not allow it to distract you from the topics being discussed. It simply documents the human experience and where she was on her journey at the time. She asked the archival team to include this message to readers. NADIA BUTLER: Hello, my name is Nadia Butler, and I am here today with Christine Penn to talk about her life and experiences in LGBT organizations in the Lehigh Valley as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. Our project has funding from the ACLS. We are meeting on location on May 8th, 2022. Christine, thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. CHRISTINE PENN: You're welcome. NB: To start, can you please state your full name and spell it for me? CP: Christine Anne Penn, C-H-R-I-S-T-I-N-E, A-N-N-E, P-E-N-N. NB: Will you please share your birthday. CP: June 21, 1967. NB: Do you consent to this interview today? CP: Yes I do. NB: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized and made publicly available in online searchable formats? CP: Absolutely, why not? [laughs] NB: Do you consent to the LGBT archive using your interview for educational purposes in other formats including films, articles, websites, presentations, and other formats? CP: I really hope that they do. [laughs] NB: Do you understand that you will have 30 days after the electronic delivery of the transcript to review my interview. Identify any parts you would like to delete and or withdraw your interview from the project? CP: I'm looking forward to it. NB: Well then, let's get started. CP: Okay. NB: So to begin, would you tell me about the early years of your life? Could you describe your childhood for us? CP: [laughs] Wow, sorry. I recognized that I was different at about four years old. It's my second earliest memory. So all of my early memories are based on like trauma, I guess you could say. So I was in a car accident when I was three years old. That's my first memory. It's the only time that I remember in my whole life that I was not feeling like I was transgender. I didn't know what it was at the time or whatever, but during that car accident, it was not an issue. Every point whatever forward from that point after that, I would say it's been an issue. [laughs] So how I recognized it was is that I was doing something and I don't even remember what I was doing. But what I remember is the emotions of the situation. So I was doing something that my father did not like and basically he yelled at me and he basically said, boys don't do that. And I immediately just wanted to turn around and tell him I was like, well I'm not a boy. And I knew that if I told him that, that he would not understand, and I was eerily accurate. I kind of find that hard or whatever that I recognized what type of person he was or whatever at that such an early age. But that was like spot on or whatever, just like dad still doesn't support me very well today. [laughs] But that's what started it I guess you could say is that basically I did not feel like a boy, I want to say ever. I really felt that I probably should have been born a girl. I know a lot of people say that or whatever, but it's just an internal feeling that you have, and you just know it right off the bat. And that day it just pointed out that people didn't see me that way. And from that point forward, it just started a long series of issues or whatever that basically came up over time. So my next major incident when that happened at four, believe it or not it wasn't until I was maybe about seven. So even though I was aware of it and things like that, starting at that time when I was getting yelled at for doing girly things, it's really the first time that I started actively trying to fit in. So, in other words, I corrected my behavior that day because I was trying to make my parents happy or trying to make my dad happy. So, whatever I was doing, I stopped doing it and I started doing it the way that he expected me to do it. And that set up a long series of things that really took a really hard thing to get over because from that point forward, I was just correcting my behaviors constantly. Because if I acted naturally, I got in trouble for it. It is really what happened. So anyway, I wouldn't say that it was a major problem during those early years. So, but I was watching TV, and I was watching a commercial. [laughs] And I remember this commercial, it's like it happened yesterday. But there was this girl, and she was playing dress up on the commercial. She was basically playing in her mom's closet, whatever, putting on her mom's clothes, doing her makeup or whatever, and I was like, I want to do that. [laughs] I so desperately want to do that. And that was the first time that I basically, quite literally, went and did that. That was the first time I basically considered cross-dressing. So, I went up to my mom's closet or whatever and started putting on her clothes, which obviously didn't fit very well. So, I was kind of tiny at the time. [laughs] So but that then started the behavior I would say of cross-dressing or whatever for the rest of my life. And up until later, obviously I don't consider that a cross dress anymore. And it's sort of weird or whatever. Just to me or whatever, it's like I have an issue or whatever with saying that, that I was cross-dressing, because to me, it wasn't really cross-dressing. I would say that was the only time I was right dressing. But at the time or whatever, since I was male, everybody would have seen this as cross-dressing. And later on, I actually found out that there was a term called cross dressers or whatever. So later on in my teenage years, I started telling a couple of people and I told them that I was a cross dresser because that's what I thought I was at the time, but anyway. So anyway, that started at seven. When I was nine, nine is the first time I considered actually transitioning, even before I even knew that it was possible. I'm like this is serious enough that I should probably tell my parents. And at the time, I thought transition was gonna be, we're gonna go down to the store, we're gonna pick out a whole new wardrobe. [laughs] And we're gonna come home, and we're gonna start just dressing as a girl all the time or whatever. And basically, we'll just go to school and live life as normal, and everything will be absolutely perfect. So, I started thinking that way, but I really never acted on it. So, in other words, I never told my parents about it the whole nine yards. But I started thinking about that a lot, but I never quite got up the courage [laughs] to do it. At 12 years old, I got caught. So, it's kind of funny, it's like I didn't know I was caught [laughs] until later. So, when I was nine, we moved to -- originally, I grew up in Philadelphia and when I was nine, we moved to Bensalem which is a suburb outside of Philadelphia. And when we did that, my grandparents moved into the house with us. So, they sold their house. My parents sold their house. They helped my parents. I didn't know it at the time, but they helped my parents get the house. And essentially my grandparents moved in with us and my grandmother used to do a lot of the housework and I had gotten lazy with my cross-dressing. I stopped putting clothes back. [laughs] So a lot of times what I would do is I would basically go into my mom's room, basically take stuff, and then I would typically put it back after I was done with it. Well, what I realized or whatever is like some of the clothes I was borrowing never got used, other than by myself. So, I stopped putting clothes back. [laughs] And I basically just started leaving them underneath my bed, which was much easier because now I didn't have to worry if somebody was going to be in the room or in the house. I only had to worry about my room. So, I call it being lazy, but really what it was, was a matter of convenience. What I didn't realize is that my grandmother would occasionally make the bed, flip the mattress and things like that. I didn't know that she was doing that stuff. So, I went to school one day, and she came in to basically change the sheets and flip the mattress. And when she did, she found my stash of clothes underneath, which then she told my mother about. [laughs] And then my mother decided to confront me about what it was, and she told me about it in the morning, on a school morning type of thing. And she said I want to have a conversation with you about the clothes that were underneath the mattress, and I'm like, oh shit, I'm dead. But she didn't have time to talk about it in the morning. So, she decided that we're going to talk about it in the evening when she got home from work. That was a very hellish day for me cause, what it did was, it gave me about eight hours to think about what I was going to do. And during that eight hours, I decided it's that okay, now is the time to come out to tell them what's really been going on. And I wanted to tell them that I wanted to transition. So, I'm thinking -- so, I started envisioning this wonderful, loving conversation with my parents where I finally tell them. And mom's gonna come embrace it wonderfully, and we're gonna go shopping this weekend, and we're gonna get new clothes, and so and so. That is not the way the conversation went [laughs] at all. So basically, when I got home, that was my goal. I was like, I'm telling them this is driving me crazy. It's like nothing has changed. This has been going on since I was four years old. It's time to come clean and let them know. So anyway, mom came home from work. Immediately, the first thing she wanted to do was have dinner. I was ready to go. It's like let's have this conversation now and so on and so forth, and I can't wait the whole night. And the end result is that we ended up having dinner. After dinner, the conversation is not moving. So, I'm like mom, can we have that conversation now? [laughs] So I'm super excited because I'm ready to spill and she says there was some laundry in the laundry room. She goes, take this upstairs. When you come down, meet me in the family room. So, I take it upstairs to wherever it was going to. It was dropping off some clothes in the bedroom and came back down. And as soon as I turned the corner to come into the family room, my mom just blasted me. It was like, why the hell, basically really angrily. It was like, what the hell are all these clothes? Are you gay? And I started getting hit with all this horrible conversation that I was just not expecting at all. So instead of opening up, sorry, I'm getting a little emotional. I closed up and all I wanted to do is basically get the conversation to end because basically she was just yelling at me and accusing me of being gay and so and so forth. And so instead of telling her what was really going on. The end result is that it didn't go well at all, and I ended up not telling them. And that turned into a really shitty time for me. I was really wallowing. You know, it's like what the hell do I do now. That was a chance, and I blew it and so on and so forth. And I lost access to my clothes for a little while. [laughs] I was a bit more careful after that. It did not stop me from dressing up. It's just that I actually stopped using mom's clothes a little bit more and I had a younger sister, her clothes fit me better anyway. In fact, when I finally came out, one of the things I did is I apologized to my sister. I said I was stealing your clothes for years [laughs] the whole time we were growing up. [laughs] I laugh about it now and she never knew, never even picked up on it, never even knew and I'm so sorry. Anyway, I laugh about it now but it's pretty serious to me. So yeah, I knew everything in her closet that fit me. [laughs] And everything that did not. So, for the most part 12 and 13, in that time frame, were pretty depressing for me. I just felt absolutely horrible. I had no idea what the hell I was going to do, the whole nine yards. And I wrote a story [laughs] about the ACME lady. It's one of my Medium stories. I recommend you read it. So when I was 13 -- so I had formed a theory when I was younger that basically it's like, I must have felt this way because maybe I had some internal female parts that just people couldn't see. And that's why the doctor declared me as male and instead of as female. So, I was hoping that puberty was going to save me. I would start developing breasts and start being the true woman or whatever that I was. And so I was really hoping that biology was going to save me. And when I was 13, I found out that my sister had already started puberty. So, puberty had not started for me. [laughs] So it turns out that there was something going on, and puberty got delayed on me for a long time. I didn't know it at the time or whatever when I was 16, a doctor actually wrote a note about it in my chart, which I didn't find out until I was like 46 years old by the way that they had written down that note when I was 16, that they had noticed it as well. But I'll have to tell you that story later. But any rate or whatever, when I was 13 or whatever, I found out that my puberty has started for my sister and that was like even worse. That made me like seriously, like I would say almost like suicidal. And then and then I walked into a store and this lady addressed me as miss, and I was like holy shit, you know somebody can see me for who I really am. And I started going to the store all the time just to interact with that lady because she thought I was a girl. At the time or whatever it was part of -- so I know today or whatever, there was sort of probably an underlying medical condition sort of going on. And that probably played into it and it's played into the way that I looked as well. So I looked -- I was very skinny. I was growing very tall. So, if you look at like little girls today as they're growing up or whatever, they get kind of like they get to this like really skinny awkward phase or whatever, [laughs] that's probably what I looked like. And when I went into the store, or whatever, just talked to this lady or whatever, I'm pretty sure that's what she saw and just assumed that I was that I was a girl. And that went on for a couple of years and I would say that lady kinda saved me because it's like she recognized or whatever is like who I really was and that interaction or whatever kind of saved me. So, instead of going even further down the suicidal path, just because I was so depressed at the time, just that interactions or whatever with that lady kind of saved me through that period of my time. And I never got to thank her, that's what my story is, it's like I never got to thank her. And I ended up throwing her under the bus later on [laughs] so -- which I felt, I still feel horrible about it to this day. So, I don't know if you wanna hear that part of the story or not [laughs]. So, I was constantly having problems off and on in school, basically being looking like a girly boy, at times or whatever, I would get picked on. It's a very common story or whatever is, I think every one of us goes through it at some point in time. So, what I had found is that if you acted like a badass [laughs] then people picked on you less [laughs]. So, I had recently [inaudible] basically trans -- well, eighth and ninth grade or whatever basically move schools or whatever. I would go into catholic school, all the way through eighth grade and when I went to ninth grade, I went to public school. And I'm like, here's a chance or whatever to kinda start over again, and I'm gonna try to act like a badass, so I'm not getting beat up all the time. And so, I hung out with this really bad, I would say bad crowd of boys, [laughs]. And I was trying to act as a badass with them, and we ended up going into the ACME, and we ran into that lady, and she addressed me as miss and the guys that I was with picked up on it. And the one guy or whatever said to me is like, yo dude, she called you a girl, you're gonna let her get away with that [laughs]. And I came up with like a snide comment, I was like, thank you very much sir, whatever. And she looked at me like really weird, and we left, and it's like I saved my face with the boys or whatever, but I was like I just ruined my, the only thing that was going on that was positive in my life with her and I never got to apologize to her for that. So, there's some sorta weird circumstance whatever, I don't know if she was retiring at the time, but she ended up leaving the store. I went back and I tried I tried to go talk to her, I wanted to tell her what was really going on, [laughs] and why I did that, and tell her why. And I never got a chance or whatever to tell her, and she ended up leaving the store and I lost contact with her. So, I was like I feel really bad about it, it's one of the worst things I think that I ever did in my life. And I wrote a Medium story about it, [laughs] which kinda goes through some of those details. But anyway, managed or whatever to get through high school. I kind of -- puberty sort of didn't really kick in or whatever until it's about 18 years old. It was a little bit of depressing to me. I wanna say it was -- I don't want you to get the wrong impression, whatever I wanna say ii was like maybe slightly helpful, because at least whatever I was now fitting better in with the boys. So, at least I was now looking more like a boy, which then made life a little bit easier. In one ways it made life easier because now I wasn't standing out as much because now I looked a little bit more manly. It didn't help with my internal [laughs] at all, so it's like not really the direction that I wanted to go in at all. But at that point in time or whatever it was like, there was a lot of information or whatever I was not familiar with at the time, I really wish I was, there was no internet, things like that or whatever. I found out or whatever that, -- and by the way I was pulled out of public school at the end of 10th grade, and I was shoved back into catholic school. And for 11th and 12th, that was probably a good thing in the long run [laughs] because hanging out with that bad crowd at the public school. I probably would have crashed and burned, probably would have never went to college, or did anything that came along later in life. Which is sorta what happened to my older brother, [laughs] my older brother hung out with -- with a bad crowd too, and he ended up not going to college and things like that, and they felt that it was the school or whatever that influenced his decisions and things like that. That turned him that way, which my parents were like, well we're gonna fix that for a second kid, I'm the middle kid. So, I have an older brother and a younger sister, and I'm the middle kid, and they threw me back into catholic school. That did turn things around for me, when I was thrown back into catholic school, it was an academic type of place as opposed to the public schools, I would say a little bit more social. Social was first, academic second at the catholic school was academics first, social second. And I felt right back into let's go fix the academics, which then got me back on the path, whatever to basically go to college and I ended up going to college and I -- that's another long story in itself or whatever. But I went to college and I did -- overall I did fine there. Graduated, got a degree and basically went on with my life per se. But anyway, from a trans perspective, by the time I got to college or whatever, I was looking more masculine, so I fit in a little bit more. I was still trying to play, trying to be the best man, I guess you could say that I could be, yeah, it's getting very used over let's say playing that role. So, I wanna say it's sort of like acting but it kinda -- you get to the point of whatever where have you done it for so long it sorta becomes I would say normal acting, but it's still an act. It's kinda hard to explain that or whatever to people who haven't been through that experience or whatever, where you feel one way but you're trying to you're trying to do everything to kind of like fit in type of thing. So, it's kinda weird or whatever to kinda like go through that or whatever but you kinda get used to it. If you didn't do it for a really long time, it just becomes second hand, and that's the way I felt that it got for me, it just became second hand. It's like I know how to do this, I know how to fit in someone and so forth. Like I've learned how to do this, I can do it and get by per se. So when I got through college, basically I went through college or whatever, essentially that way. There was an LGB group in college there was no 'T' [laughs] I would have really have liked to have met a 'T' in college that would have been really cool. I did check out the LGB group and that was social death, at my school or whatever. It is like if you went -- if you hung out with the LGB people or whatever, that was like you were social death or whatever. It's like they had their own little clique or whatever and that did not interact with the rest of the let's say the normal college students or whatever. So, I quickly found out that was like I was curious [laughs] I've had lots of feelings or whatever. My whole, let's say attraction thing or whatever had flipped. So, when I was going through, let's say the 12, 13, and 14, I had a real attraction to boys. And quite I had a crush on somebody on my track team in 10th grade, it's like [laughs]. I never told anybody this or whatever, but I'd be like I'd go gay for you, that's how hot he was and how much he like turned me on. But I would never do anything about it. It's like that would have been like social death to basically come out or whatever and ask a guy out or whatever and as you're being seen as a guy or whatever, that's just never was happening. When puberty kinda kicked in, it flipped. It flipped for me. So, at eighte -- like around 17 to 18 or whatever, all of a sudden whatever, I started liking girls. And that worked out well [laughs] cuz I ended up getting, in the long run, getting married and having kids and things like that. Funny thing is that when I started HRT, it flipped back. So, it's like -- and that's to me or whatever that was not a surprise [laughs] cause it's kinda like when testosterone really wasn't doing much of anything. It seemed like I was going down the path or whatever of being a normal girl whatever and being attracted to boys or whatever. So, when I flipped over to estrogen or whatever, it was like yeah, that was not a big surprise whatever that would flip back again. So just, it's kinda really weird or whatever when shit like that happens, it's like you don't necessarily expect it. So, but anyway, that's why it's like I have serious issues or whatever with labels, basically calling somebody like gay or lesbian or things like that or whatever because it's like, yeah, I'm pretty sure that I could have identified with just about any one of those labels at some point in my time or whatever does it really matter? And I was like, I don't really care at this point [laughs]. You wanna call me gay fine, you wanna call me a lesbian technically you'd be correct in that too. Do I consider myself like straight? Yeah, [laughs] the funny thing is that overall I'm sorta more on the asexual side. It's like, yeah, I have the attractions or whatever, but it's like there's no real big push to go do anything. So it's like not a whole lot of motivation [laughs] I guess you can say. NB: You mentioned talking about your childhood that you grew up around Philadelphia and stuff, and you also had two siblings. I'm curious, did you have anyone aside from the grocery lady who you confided about these feelings? CP: I did not, no, so, and I really didn't confide with the grocery lady at all. She just basically thought that I was a girl, and I just loved the interaction. So, really I didn't confide in anybody, that was a secret or whatever, and I was deeply held or whatever and wasn't gonna tell a soul type of thing. So I would have liked to have confided it to my parents, but as I said or whatever, that thing did not go well. Didn't go well later either, but that was a clear pattern across my life or whatever. So, we haven't gotten to that, it's like I tried to come out in -- so to me or whatever it was like, I think I did a story or whatever it's like for The Gay Journal. And basically, I came up with five times I attempted to come out [laughs]. So that first interaction with my father, that was a chance or whatever to come out that I blew. So that was one. [laughs] So there was, when I considered transition, when I was nine, that was considering or whatever coming out again or whatever, that was two. So, the 12 or whatever was number three, when I got caught and considered coming out again and that failed as well. I actually did come out in 1999 and then reversed. And then I came out again in 2015, 2016 time frame, that one stuck [laughs]. So that's the one where I actually went through with it. So, to me or whatever, I came out like five or attempted to come out three times, actually did come out twice, only one, actually worked [laughs]. So, in 1999, when I came out or whatever, that was after -- it's kinda funny or whatever, it circles around my exploration with the Internet a little bit. So, in 1994 I went to work for Honeywell, which is where I'm still working today. And Honeywell was actually on the Internet, but the Internet in 1994 was not the Internet that we know today. So, the Internet in 1994, there was like almost no World Wide Web. It was mostly interconnected, like mail servers and -- or call them like FTP servers or whatever, like file transfer type of mechanisms. But I don't wanna say that they were called FTP at the time they were called something else, and I can't think of -- not remembering what the hell they were called. But basically, you had like a whole bunch of like dial up interfaces, you could dial up and basically connect into your mail and things like that. So, the only thing that was kinda like on the internet back then, was defense contractors and colleges and the government, that was it. So, Honeywell was a defense contractor, that's why they were on the internet. So, and I had a lot of interaction with that, I was working as a network administrator at the time, as a network engineer [laughs]. And I was basically managing a piece of Honeywell's network. I had managed other networks for other companies before I came to work for Honeywell. So it was nothing new. But Honeywell was the first company that I worked for that was actually on the internet. And because I was a network engineer or whatever, I subscribed to a couple of magazines at the time. One of them was Network World, and I was reading an article in Network World bulletin boards. That's one of the things that, [inaudible] think of at the time. You can connect to bulletin boards whatever on the internet or whatever. Nobody had like web servers up, but they would have like a bulletin board service, which was kind of like a messaging service and things like that. Anyway, I read a story that UCLA, University of California, Los Angeles, was converting their bulletin boards to be now connected onto the internet directly. And they listed the groups that were basically within the college or whatever that basically had bulletin boards. And one of the things they listed was LGBT, their LGBT group, had a bulletin board and they were converting that over to the internet. And I was like, I had recently through other, let's say other research, had recently found information about transgender people. So, somewhere in the 90's, that term or whatever started to, I wanna say float around, [laughs]. And I wanna say whatever, is the term had existed or whatever for many years before that, but I wanna say it was more in in academic circles, it wasn't necessarily in public use. And I wanna say in the 90s, whatever, it started to become more public, where you could actually go to the library and find something to read about it. And I had recently discovered it. And at the time I, whatever I was thinking, it's like, I'm pretty sure that I've been transgender my whole life. Prior to that time, or whatever, I was thinking that it was primarily a cross dresser, because that was the activity that I was doing all the time. But, to me or whatever, it was never quite satisfying, is a good word to say cause it's all it basically did was reminded me of the predicament that I was in. So, it's something that I felt that I had to do, but basically it just reminded me is that this isn't temporary for you. And then when I looked at myself in the mirror, it's like, it didn't look right. And I was like, I look like a guy in a dress, [laughs]. I didn't wanna be a guy in the dress, I wanted to be a girl in the dress. And basically, getting dressed up or whatever just reminded me, I was like, no, I'm a guy in a dress. I feel like I'm a girl, but I look like the guy in the dress. Anyway, so, I started finding out information about transgender people. So, when I read that article about UCLA converting their thing, and they had an LGBT group, T being the transgender piece or whatever, and they spelled it out, they didn't say LGBT. They put in lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and immediately or whatever that was like holy shit or whatever, [laughs]. There's this group in UCLA of transgender people. And later on, I was on a business trip out to Phoenix and I decided to go onto the internet to see if I could find the UCLA bulletin board system, to see if I can talk to these transgender people. And I ended up finding them, so, there wasn't a Google, [laughs] at the time to go find it. There was a couple of other search engines or whatever, there was a couple of search engines or whatever before Google. Believe it or not, these things existed. They weren't very good, [laughs]. They weren't like Google is today. So, you really had to know what you were looking for or whatever in order to find things, and so on and so forth. But I was able to find them and I was able to connect to them. And one of the first, when I connected to them, I got into this chat group. And one of the first things they asked me is, what is your fem name? I didn't have one at the time, [laughs]. It's like, holy shit, so, this is another Medium story by the way, I have documented this as well. It's how my name came about. Basically, I connected with these with this group of other transgender girls and they started asking me questions or whatever. Immediately I was like, oh my God, these people have the same experience that I had. And we started really connecting or whatever. And then they asked me what my name was, and I was like, I didn't have one at the time. So, they were like, great, we'll help you figure one out or whatever, what we'll call you or whatever. And they were like, do you know what your parents would have named you or whatever, if you were born a girl? And I'm like, yeah, I do. They would have named me Kathleen, and they're like, great, do you love it? Do you like it or whatever? It's like, maybe you should go with that. And I'm like, well, the only problem is that I had a younger sister and she got the name instead, [laughs]. So I said, yeah that doesn't work, [laughs]. So, they're going back and forth or whatever, it's like do you have a favorite aunt or whatever that you like? Or a family member, so on and so forth. And I'm like, no, I've kind of -- so my deadname was Christopher, and I was like, never really like Christopher, never fit. So basically, I had, going by Chris, my whole life, Chris to me was gender neutral, it could go either way. That, to me or whatever, the name that I had decided on. And everybody just called me Chris. And I was like, no I'm pretty su -- I've settled this a long time ago in my head or whatever, so, Chris is fine, I just need to change the gender of it. So instead of Chris it's Christopher, we'll just make it officially as Chris is Christine instead. So, where were we, [laughs]? NB: I believe you were talking about, it was the late 90s, you discovered this -- CP: Okay, yep. So anyway, I was like no, Chris is Christine or whatever, it's fine. And I said, we gotta change more than that or whatever, I have a middle name, it's Albert and I'm like Albert has never worked either. And I was like, we're gonna change that too, and I said Albert was married to Ann, and technically my grandmother's name is Anna. But she hated Anna. She always, always had everybody call her Ann instead of an Anna. To her, Anna was an old lady, and she wasn't old, at least she was old to me, but in her eyes she wasn't old. And so she always had people call her Ann. So when she wrote out her name, she wrote out A-N and then she slanted the last A, so that it looked more like an E. And I remember her telling me that story or whatever, and I was like, I'm like, well, instead of you know her husband or whatever, and I was like, I'm gonna flip it to her, only I'm gonna spell it A-N-N-E. In tribute to her. And I ended up, so, at that point or whatever, Christine Anne was born. And that was enough, that's all I needed to do at the time. And it was never really gonna use Anne on the website or whatever, it's just gonna be Christine on the website or on the bulletin board. And that's what started it. But anyway, I found out later my sister is Kathleen Anne as well and she's Kathleen Anne with an e because my mom, her mother had told her the same story. So when she named my sister Kathleen Anne, she also did the same thing. But anyway, I am Iike, Christine Anne and Kathleen Ann, yeah, that's different enough, I'm not changing it again or whatever. We're sticking with Christine Anne with an E, [laughs]. But anyway, my sister is Christine Anne without an e, she's Ann, period. But she dropped it specifically because of the same story that my grandmother told me or whatever only I went with the A-N-N-E. So, we are technically two different Anns. I'm Anne with an E and she's Ann without it, without anything. So, I'm like, that's different enough, I'm not changing it again. So, anyway, I kept in contact with these people for probably a couple of years. And later on, I was in the middle of a chat, and the moderator jumped in and he was finding the stories that we're talking about very interesting because it was like sharing life experiences or whatever. I was telling them about the ACME lady and other things or whatever that was going on. And the moderator said, you guys should really document your stories, you should start writing a book. So, nothing had existed yet. Who's that famous author, I can't think of her name, I can see her, the blond. NB: Tori Peters? CP: No, God, what the hell is her name? She basically released a book or whatever. I used to have it. I had to return it, [laughs]. She was probably the only sane person on Caitlyn Jenner -- when it was Caitlin or whatever. She's the writer, what's hell's her name? NB: I know who you're talking about but it escapes me as well. CP: Anyway, she had not released her -- NB: Jennifer Finney Boylan. CP: Yes. Jenny Boylan, Jenny Boylan's book had not come out yet or anything or whatever. So, we were all encouraged or whatever to basically write our stories down or whatever and share it with the world or whatever. It's like people should know about our stories or whatever in the whole nine yards. And I took that to that to task. I actually did, I started documenting my story, I started writing down whatever, all my experiences, whatever in the whole nine yards about coming out and things like that. So, after getting in touch with these people at the bulletin board or whatever, one of the first things I did is, I'm like I need to talk to somebody about this and figure out what I need to do and so on and so forth. So, I started seeing psychologists, there was no such a thing as a gender therapist at the time. So, life was harder back then, in the late 90s than it is in the, let's say the later 20s or whatever today, totally different time frame. Everything was not easy as it is today. I can even tell you more stories, [laughs] more stories about that. You wanna hear them all? Okay. NB: Absolutely. CP: So I started seeing a therapist or whatever and I came out to my first therapist or whatever that I went -- I'm gonna call him a therapist, but they were technically psychologist. Basically, I set up an appointment with a psychologist or whatever, and I told her what I wanted to talk about. And I did this emotional dump on her. And basically, it's like I cried my freaking head off or whatever. And it's like I've been hiding my whole life or whatever and went through the whole story, and so on and so forth or whatever. And our second appointment, so I got through all of that or whatever the whole nine yards, it was like a two-hour appointment, where it's like I think I cried probably for 90% of it. And just dumped on her. I was thinking of all the turmoil or whatever that had been through and struggling with this and the whole nine yards or whatever. The second appointment I had with her, she's like, yeah, this is way too complicated for me to handle, [laughs] and she sent me to a second psychologist. She goes I haven't dealt with this or whatever. She is obviously whatever, it's very emotional for you and you're struggling with this and the whole nine yards. She goes, I don't have the expertise, but I have a friend of mine that I think you'd be better off with. So, she referred me to a second person. And then I started seeing the second psychologist, the second psychologist or whatever. And I ended up overwhelming her. Who then sent me to a third psychologist. And this is the way things went back then. Quite literally it's, like I said, there was no gender therapist and things like that. And I would say the majority of the medical community weren't even aware that transgender people existed and the type of emotional problems that they had and things like that. So, basically it was just being tossed from one to another. That was a little hard I guess you could say. So, the last psychologist I went to see told me, she goes, you're finding information faster than I can, [laughs] I still had access to the internet, she did not. Okay, so I was telling her about, basically it's like I really want to seriously consider starting HRT or whatever and things like that. She had never even heard of HRT. And I'm like, well the people out in UCLA are telling me there's this medical thing that you can go through and so on and so forth. And she said, supposedly or whatever, you have to go see a doctor and you need a letter for that, can you give me a letter? And like she's like I have no idea what the hell you're talking about. I'm like Jesus, this is gonna be like really tough. But anyway, I ended up not getting that far, [laughs] Anyway, back to the -- I started writing my story. I was sitting on another business trip on a plane coming back from Phoenix, Arizona this time to Pennsylvania. And I started writing my story and I was starting to think about publishing it. And I basically, I was not out at the time, and I was like, I didn't necessarily want my family knowing about it and things like that or whatever. So, I didn't necessarily wanna associate my name with the family because I wasn't out to them and I didn't want necessarily anything coming back. So, I started building what I would say a dual identity, okay? So, I'm sitting on the plane and I'm thinking is like, I need a pen name and over and over and over again, I'm thinking I need a pen name, I need a pen name. And it was like, I have a pen name, it's Penn, [laughs]. So that's how Christine Anne Penn came about. So, Penn quite literally is appending, that was going to be my writing alias name. And because my original last name ended in two Ns, I added two Ns on the end of Penn as a tribute or whatever as a linkage or whatever, it's just sort of my original last name. And from that time forward started my alias of Christine Anne Penn. NB: And what year was this? CP: That was in, that was like in the 1999/2000 time frame is when Christine Anne Penn was born. And one of the first things I did was basically Hotmail, it just came onto the scene and I created an alias email address or whatever for me, so chrispenn

hotmail.com, I lost that email address later by the way. But yeah, I would say that really started what I was considered the start of a dual life. So when I was female, I was Christina Anne Penn when I was male, I was Christopher Lunemann, was my original last name, which I now considered by the way a maiden name, I don't like to call it a dead name. Because I'm like if I was born right, and would have got married then it would have been a maiden name, and we would have dropped it. So, in fact I mentioned that in my name, change story or whatever, so I was like yeah, obviously whatever, just like yeah. Sean Penn after he dropped Madonna hooked up with me, we got married in Vegas, and it's such a pain in the ass changing your name, which it really is it pain in the ass changing your name. I just decided not to change it back. So hence Christina Anne Penn, and then I apologize and basically said, yeah, Sean, I don't remember that trip to Vegas either. So anyway, Christine Anne Penn was born around, we'll just say 2000 or whatever, just to narrow it off, because I don't know exactly, I don't remember exactly what it was, but it's somewhere in that time frame. But anyway, one of the other things that significantly happened is that like my, one of my psychologists, whatever, she suggested that I join a support group. And that actually put me in touch with the first transgender person I ever knew, which was, God I keep on forgetting names. I'm drawing blanks on names all of a sudden. I found Renaissance of Philadelphia is what I found, and God, what the hell is her name? This is pissing me off, I might have to fire up my computer and look some of the stuff up. She was pretty freaking awesome or whatever, and I didn't meet her physically until like I wanna say like 17 years later, but I had awesome conversations with her on the phone. So, I ended up finding out that Renaissance had a Lehigh Valley chapter and instead of going to the Philadelphia one, they ended up tossing me over to the Lehigh Valley one. And I joined the Lehigh Valley Renaissance, and this was around the 2000 actually 1999 because -- I know this because upstairs I actually have the magazine still. In one of my first meetings, I bought the Transgender Community News, which was a magazine that Renaissance was publishing at the time. And I bought the May 1999 edition at my first meeting I ever went to with Renaissance. So, and I still have it to this day. So, it was not the May meeting, I want to say it was the June meeting, they were selling the May -- the prior month's book or the prior month's magazine at the June meeting. So, June of 1999 I think was my first transgender support group meeting. So, it had actually taken several months to get in, by the way. So back then, okay, you couldn't go out on the internet and see where they're meeting and just show up, they didn't publish things like that. So, what you had to be is you had to be vetted. Angela [Gardner], what the hell is the last name, okay, it's coming back, it's Angela somebody and I can't think of her last thing at the moment, but she was the president of Philadelphia Renaissance. So, she's still active in the community to this day, but I first -- basically I found a telephone number for Lehigh Valley Renaissance, called was nervous as hell called them up and left a message. They didn't answer -- it wasn't manned telephone line, they just basically -- it was a voice mail and I left a voicemail and then Angela ended up calling me back later. And she vetted me. Basically whatever is like her job was to basically find out who I was, was I a crazy person or whatever, what I wanted and someone and so forth. And eventually I made it through her vetting process. And that's when I found out whatever that they had a Lehigh Valley group or whatever and then I was basically put in contact with the president of the Lehigh Valley chapter. And she then vetted me again before they shared the information of where they met and things like that or whatever. And basically, I was told, we meet on this -- the funny thing is that they were meeting on the second Saturday of the month, they continue to meet on the second Saturday of the month to this day that goes back to like original. So, but it was not they were not meeting at the MCC -- I don't know if you've ever been to Lehigh [inaudible], have you been to Lehigh Valley Renaissance? NB: I have actually, yes. CP: You have, okay. NB: I think we met there once prior. CP: There's a good chance we have, I have not been there recently but I had been attending from 2015 to -- we'll say 2015 the current, so it's not 2022. So, I've been going fairly regularly for the last seven years. So, this is back in 1999, so I basically I joined them or whatever, but the first time I went, I went as male. Second time I went, I went dressed. That was the first time I had actually ever left the house being dressed. So back in 1999 or whatever, that's the first time I actually went in public in fem. Had never gone in public before that. Never had left the house or whatever, still dressing in a closet. Had been dressing in a closet since I was seven years old or whatever at that point or whatever, I was now 33, so this is when I was 33. And that was the first time I had ever gone out in public in fem, and I went to my second Renaissance meeting in fem. So, it was quite the experience the first time or whatever, it was quite the experience the second time. I went for about six months. And at the six-month mark is when my wife and my parents kind of beat up on me and said, you can't do this. So, I was on a path to transition and I had come out publicly back then was not publicly as we know it today, there was no Facebook where you could make an announcement, there was no -- what you got, but that doesn't mean it didn't spread by word of mouth and things like that. I was having lots of problems in life, like I walked into a bar and this guy came up and was like, are you that panty wearing faggot? I'm like, oh, lovely. Like, who do you know? So, he knew my brother-in-law, my brother-in-law told him that I was transitioning, lovely. So I was having all sorts of issues like that or whatever, going in public or whatever and things like that. But the funny thing is that I was able to walk that back later when I did not transition, when I did not go through with it. So, my parents, not really my parents, my mother and my wife or whatever ganged up on me. And basically, my mom or whatever, she laid down what I would say is the worst thing that you could ever tell to a transgender person, but basically she said if you're really a woman then you know that you put everybody else's life in front of your own. So, she goes if you are really a woman then you will put your kid's life and your wife's life in front of your own, and you'll stay in the end for them. And that hit home for me, it's like I knew exactly what she was talking about, and I stopped transitioning basically, it's like now I made a commitment to my wife, to be the man for her. And Two kids were young at the time, my daughter was like six and my son was three, and it's like now we're gonna go back in the closet. Well, the intention was not to go back in the closet at the time. The intention was to basically nope, we're gonna stop doing this, and we're gonna ignore it, and we're gonna try to live the best life that we can as a man and be the father to my children and be the husband to my wife. And I went back in the closet for another 15 years. And I want to say for about six months, I didn't get dressed, I didn't do anything, I stopped going to the Renaissance meetings. I stopped writing my book, that came to a halt. So, I could have been a famous author like Jenny Boylan, I could have released my wonderful transgender story and gone through transition and release that as well. And it could have been a famous author, but nope, never happened. So, I stopped writing the book because nothing was going on, I wasn't transitioning anymore. I lost my contact with UCLA. I stopped looking at my Chris Penn email that I set up with Hotmail, and that's when they deactivated my account because it wasn't active anymore. And when I did that, I lost contact with all the UCLA people, cause I had no way of contacting them again. Which that was always a little problematic too because those people were kind of like they would come in, and they were college students, so they graduate and disappear. It wasn't like Facebook or whatever, like you become friends with something, and you can stay friends with them for the rest of your life. I only had contacts or whatever for people that were active college students at the time, they would come and go. So basically, it's like if you went, how do you get in touch with somebody who isn't there anymore, you know type of thing? So, I never ended up going back to the bulletin board system anyway. So, by the time -- after 15 years ago, but I wouldn't even know how to connect with the UCLA people at all or if there would be any reason to, so on and so forth. But the end result is that my wife always knew, when we were dating I told her is that I'm a closeted cross dresser, and she was okay with it. Which is part of the reason why I ended up marrying her in the first place, this is like if you could deal with this then you're a keeper. [laughs] She kind of like thought it was a little kinky or whatever. She was like as long as it stays in the bedroom and so hence why I was a closeted cross dresser and never went out. You know, because essentially I never left the house. Did have a couple of minor incidents as the kids were growing up. Apparently or whatever, I sleepwalk on occasion. I had dressed and fallen asleep and apparently, I slept walked around the house and my daughter saw me, and she then decided to tell her day care. It was like my dad dresses up in dresses at home. That did not go over well, because the daycare then confronted my wife and my wife then came and yelled at me, she's like we had an agreement or whatever, you don't you don't show the kids this, and I'm like I didn't show the kids this and apparently whatever your daughter knows, and I'm like, oh shit, I'm like how the hell did she find out? So, the best that we can find out, whatever it is that I probably slept --or slept walk one night or whatever, and she saw me. Believe it or not, that's how we, that's how we ended up with part of this Pocono house that we're currently sitting in. So, this was the second house when I was married, this was my house, it was always my house. I always fell in love with this area, whatever my -- we did make an attempt or whatever to let's say, live here full time as a primary house, but my wife couldn't stand it up here, so we ended up moving back down south, like the Landsdale/Montgomeryville area is where we -- where I met her and that's where I spent a lot of my time raising my kids down in that area, and this became a second house, and this was my weekend house, or whatever, to basically go away and get dressed and have a fun weekend by myself and I could come up here and we would, we would still spend like holidays and things like that up here, it wasn't just my getaway house, but it was very important for me to have like a getaway house. I needed a place to go. To basically -- so, most of the time when I was here, any time I was here by myself or whatever, I was -- I was dressed, in fem didn't typically go out. Basically, I would come up and go grocery shopping or whatever and then spend the whole weekend in them or whatever, but really never left the house. It's part of the reason why we're back here, kind of like we're in the back of a development or whatever, not really a whole lot going on here. It's not -- not a single neighbor ever noticed a thing. Pretty quiet back here. So that's how that's, believe it or not or whatever that, the location of this house where it is, why it exists, and things like that are very much tied into my life and continues to be. When, I got divorced, I was like, I'm keeping in this house. So, and my wife or whatever knew that, she's like, yeah, that's always been your house. It will always continue to be your house. She had no problems with it, had problems with lots of the furniture in it, which is, which did not go very well, and I've not really replaced. So, I had a very nice table at one point in time. I had a very nice sectional and things like that. They left when I got divorced and this got -- this was a really old table or whatever and that was like borrowed furniture and things like that or whatever it's like, I really need to replace a lot of these things, but I haven't really done so. But yeah, it's all tied in, it's all tied into the story, so. NB: I'm wondering, you mentioned your wife and your kids, and you also mentioned the sense of your having like a split identity. Would you mind talking about that for us? CP: Sure, so, I basically associated the two behaviors, my behavior as male or whatever with my name, Christopher. And I associated my behaviors of what I did as female or whatever as associated with Christine and for the longest time or whatever, that was my life or whatever. It's like, quite literally, I had two lives. And for many years, whatever it's like during that 1999/2000 time frame or whatever, definitely had two lives going on. Then, two very active lives. And what really became -- I wanna say is that basically I had two very active lives running like 50/50, for I want to say a good six months. And then transition came to a halt and then became a 90/10 split. Now it's like 90% Christopher and 10% Christine. And that's the way it stayed for about the next 15 years or so. And that 90/10 split was like Christine did not go away. She disappeared for about six months and then came roaring back. It's like, we can't stay -- cannot not do, let's say, these private behaviors or whatever and things like that or whatever. It's like I just can't live that way. And eventually what happened is that over time or whatever, Christine, I call her, I always say it's like she was the second person, whatever. But it's like really what happened was, is that, over time or whatever, it's like it started creeping, she started creeping up. Christine was yelling or whatever, it's like I can't be held in the closet [laughs] forever, and basically, eventually you just start exploring or whatever and so on and so forth. And you start -- now you go out in public, and you venture on public or whatever, see how it goes. So, I remember one time or whatever leaving the house or whatever, and it's like nervous as hell or whatever, but instead of getting dressed and coming back down to like the Landsdale area, whatever I drove and back then or whatever, it's like there was no EZ Passes. I actually had to pay a toll. I actually had to stop and interact with somebody and hand them money, and I was like, oh my God, whatever, what are they gonna say or whatever It was like dressed in fem. Of course, they just said nothing or didn't even notice it. I was just one in 40 million people that they collected money from that day, but to me or whatever, it's like harrowing event or whatever. It's like, oh my God or whatever, it's like, so on and so forth, it's those little things like that, that sort of like start out. It's the simplest things or whatever, just like, going to the gas station for the first time or whatever, and filling up your car when you're in fem or whatever and things like that. Everything's like nerve wracking, it's like, I'm gonna get found out, somebody's gonna be like oh transgender person, kill them. [laughs] But any rate or whatever, it's like, you kind of just keep on doing that. And the funny thing is that the more you do it, then the more it just becomes normal. And then all of a sudden it's like, now you have just -- now you have like two normal lives. It's like everything's got to like kinda normalizing or whatever on both sides. Over time or whatever, it just became, it's like, you know, this is the life I've always wanted to have. And in 2015 I reached a boiling point, that was major. I want to say, it started in January. It started in January, and I was like, this is -- I had separated from my wife in November. And in January, I was starting to realize that all of those commitments that I made, about raising my kids and being the father to them and the husband to my wife. Kind of like, I met all those, they were done, it's like my kids were now, my daughter was in college, my son was about to graduate high school. It was obviously -- my marriage was falling apart, with my wife we were now separated, and I'm like you've met all these commitments or whatever you're done, you don't need to live up to that commitment that you made anymore. And I started thinking about that in January of 2015, and I was like, I don't know, I'm now older, and like is HRT even gonna still work, you know? Do I wanna totally upset my life or whatever and so on and so forth. And I would say for a good five months whatever, I was like, I don't know if I can do this, I'm too old, I have established a life. Now we're talking about 2015 [laughs] we're up to May of 2015. All of a sudden in May of 2015, right around Memorial Day, I get hit with anxiety, it was not, and it was not a good time. So, during that six months, or whatever, that had passed whatever, since I'd separated from the wife for whatever, I was having a lot of financial problems. Basically, when we separated, the way that we had done finances is that -- I made more money than she did, and my paycheck went basically paying for like all the bills, like car payments, and car insurances, and mortgages and so on and so forth. But by the time my paycheck paid off all those things, there wasn't any money left. So, my wife had also worked. So, her money was the fun money or what I call the fun money, but it really wasn't necessarily fun money like it was the grocery money. And it was what we bought clothes with and all the stuff that you do outside of life or whatever. It's like my paycheck was basically sucked up with living, the mortgages, the health care, all of the necessities I guess you could say. But when we separated, essentially, I still had all those obligations. And now she had all the fun money [laughs] and no obligations. So, I'm like, you need to take over your car payment. I need to free that up, so I can go grocery shopping for myself, and she was like, well no, I'm not doing that. So basically, I was going broke, it was like I couldn't feed myself. And if I stopped paying like her car payment or whatever, it was like primarily on my credit to begin with anyway, so it's like all I'd be doing is screwing myself. I was in financial trouble big time, and that created a lot of stress. And then at work at the time, there was a financial slowdown and my work was doing furlough programs. So, in other words, basically, every two weeks, you're gonna get a day less pay. Rather than lay you off or lay off a bunch of people, were gonna basically cut back. We're now only gonna pay you for nine days out of a 10 day for work rate. So basically the end result is that my paycheck was going down. [laughs] So basically whatever I'm getting inundated with, I have no free money, I can't even go grocery shopping for myself, my paycheck or whatever is getting smaller, I'm basically getting screwed. So, I'm like, I need to get divorced right now, I need to force her to basically take over her obligations or whatever, so I can get money to free up, so I can basically go grocery shopping and live. And I had no way out, I had no money to hire a lawyer or anything like that or whatever. I did finally talk to my parents and basically, they lent me the money to pay for a lawyer to basically force her into divorce. Because she did not want things to change, whatever. She's got somebody paying for all of her stuff or whatever, and she's living wild and free and now has a shitload of extra money because now she doesn't have to do anything for me. So anyway, basically going through that through the normal stresses of life or whatever. So, it's not like work or whatever was going away. I now have the stress or whatever, finances, whatever going on or whatever, the whole nine yards. I did not need any other stress that's going on in my life when I went up like gender dysphoria, hi, I'm here. And by the way, I'm going to fuck you [laughs] and I'm gonna screw you over, like, as bad as you can be or whatever. And basically whatever, and that started in Memorial -- I don't know why Memorial Day or whatever, but it's like, right around that time frame or whatever. It's kind of like, you need to transition, and you need to do it now [laughs] and then quite literally, it was like a little voice in my head or whatever. It was like, yeah, you met all your obligations, you need to transition, you need to do it now. Your whole life is screwed or whatever, so we're just gonna screw everything. At any rate, that hit me in May or whatever, and quite literally, I just had the super anxiety or whatever. It was driving me freaking crazy or whatever. It's like -- it was going nuts, and I'm like, I can't do this, I can't handle this right now. It's like, I can't do that or whatever, the whole nine yards. My gender therapist or whatever basically said the stress of all those other things basically brought that stress to life, is really what happened. It's kind of like a frequent thing or whatever they see in us or whatever, it's like one stress situation kind of like bubbles up another one. It was definitely happening to me. And basically, it was just driving me crazy or whatever, and I'm like, and I was still thinking or whatever, it's like, is HRT even gonna work or whatever. It's like, I can't pass to save my life or whatever. It's like every time I go out in public or whatever, it's horrible, you know? And this isn't worth it. I quite literally started getting suicidal, and I picked a drop-dead date. My drop-dead date was July 4th, 2015. I said if I can't figure out what the hell I'm doing by then, I'm done, I'm ending it. And July 4th came around, and I was like I've had it, I'm done. I don't wanna go through the turmoil of transition, I can't keep living or whatever, the way that I am. I don't wanna live as male anymore. Basically, it's like I'm done, and I planned it. I started to execute it. So north of here, so this believe it or not, this goes back to cycling. So, part of the reason why I live here is because I fell in love with things like the D&amp ; L Trip. So, the D&amp ; L Trail is a trail that basically goes from Bristol, Pennsylvania all the way up to Wilkes-Barre, and it runs through the Lehigh Gorge right here. The Lehigh Gorge is, quite literally, three miles that way. So, this development is on the edge of whatever of the Lehigh Gorge State Park. So basically, you walk down the end of the block here, you walk into the Gorge State Park, and then from there to a mile or whatever is the river, but it's also a river and 1000 ft drop. So we're about 1000 ft above the river. But anyway, I was writing through all this time or whatever that I had the house up here, whatever, okay, I wasn't spending all my time in the house, let's say dressed up. Now I would go out and I would basically go ride a bike up and down the D&amp ; L Trail. I was very familiar with, well, to this day or whatever I can tell you about like every inch of the trail from here, all the way up to White Haven. So, at White Haven is the Interstate 80 bridge that goes across the Lehigh Gorge. It's about an 800 ft drop, from the Lehigh -- from the bridge to the gorge, or to the river. People have driven off that bridge. I knew people had driven off that bridge. People have committed suicide driving off that bridge. There's probably like about three or four people a year that do it. That's what I decided I was going to do. I was basically going to drive up to Interstate 80 or whatever and drive off that bridge. I was not going to call a hotline. I found out or whatever, my life insurance had a suicide clause. So, I was not gonna document it, not gonna do anything. I wanted it to look like a tragic, tragic accident, basically or whatever is just basically, I live in the area, or whatever. So, it would be like, it's not like I haven't driven across that bridge before. So, I knew exactly where to hit it. The whole nine yards, or whatever, basically I planned it the whole nine yards. Because it was July 4th weekend, I had been riding my bike all weekend trying to figure out, a way out, to not go and commit suicide. And when I left the house and basically said that's it, I'm done or whatever, I'm driving to the bridge. I realized or whatever that might bike was still in the back of my truck. That truck down there, the one that I still have. That was the truck that I had at the time, still have it. [laughs] Anyway, my bike was still in the back of the truck from -- because I had ridden the trail or whatever the day before, and I said, let's do one more bike ride. If I can't solve it on this bike ride or whatever, I'm not coming home, put the bike in the back of the truck, and we're driving off the bridge. [Inaudible] the beginning of the bike ride or whatever went absolutely horrible. I was still thinking about everything negative, I was thinking about it if I came out or whatever, and it's like everybody would have to know, my kids didn't know at the time or whatever. I was thinking that my auto mechanic has to know. Everybody in the area, or whatever is gonna find out, someone and so forth or whatever, it was just focused on everything negative, and I was like, I can't pass whatever, is HRT even still work for me, someone so forth or whatever it's like do I really wanna put myself through this? And the end answer was, no, didn't wanna do it. So eventually whenever I turned around on the bike and then I was headed back and I was gonna basically drive straight to the bridge or whatever, drive off the damn bridge, and I could not settle my mind down. My mind was just micro focused or whatever on, I've had it, I'm done thinking about this, I don't wanna do anything. Just get back to the truck, and drive to the bridge and fucking end it. That's quite literally, that was the mode, that was the mindset I was in. It's like, I've had it, I cannot, I don't wanna even think about it anymore, it's not even worth working out or whatever, and so on and so forth. And my mind was just driving me fucking crazy and I decided to turn on a song. I had my phone with me and on my phone I had music, and I decided to just turn on some music or whatever just to get me back to the truck, and a song came on and that song changed my way. That song is Peter Gabriel's "Don't Give Up". And I wrote this down in another Medium story [laughs]. The words to that song connected with me on that day. So believe it or not, this has actually been documented now. The Medium story that I wrote was actually referenced by a paper in the UK. They used it as an example of how many different people that this song has helped, in suicidal situations. Because essentially what I did is I documented how I felt that day, and what I was thinking about how that song saved me. So basically or whatever it goes through, it's a song or whatever and really what it does is it applies to just about any depressing type of situation. I would say go listen to it if you're not familiar with it, or go read my Medium story because I go through the story line by line and equated to what I was thinking about at the time or whatever and how that line connected with me. I had listened to that song probably 20 million times before that day, and never got the meaning of it. It's like I knew the words to it, but it never connected with me, that day it connected with me. And when I got back to the truck instead of driving to the bridge, I came back here instead, and the day after, I called my insurance company or whatever looking to basically go talk to a gender therapist or psychologist again. I had not spoken to one in 15 years at that point, from back to the 2000, you know, when I had spoken to him one last time and of course whatever as soon as I told them, what I had just been through over the weekend. They were like, please hang up and call the transgender suicide hotline. And, I'm like, no I think I'm okay there now, I'm not going to do that, but I really need to speak to somebody. And I did and it took about 2.5 months to find somebody. My company's health plan did not support anything transgender related. So, they did not have a list of gender therapists to give me to call. All they could give me was basically just mental health professionals. So, I ended up going through a list of like about 50 people, I think the 48th person that I called, was actually somebody who was familiar with gender related issues. And I ended up making an appointment with him, and he's the guy that actually wrote my letter to start HRT, or one of them [laughs]. What a unique guy, [laughs] I did not want a guy to talk to. I always found that women are much more empathetic. So I was really hoping or whatever to find another woman. The psychologist that I had spoken to before like years ago, they were all women, and I really felt that I had connected with them, I did not think that I could connect that way with a guy. But he ended up being a really good guy for me to to talk to. And he did all sorts of weird stupid shit, that I thought was stupid at the time, but I got it later. I always equate him to like The Karate Kid movie, and Mr. what the hell is mojo or what the hell? What the hell is his name? NB: In Karate Kid? CP: Yeah. NB: I have no idea that might be a little before -- CP: I forget his name or, so basically he's like Daniel-san or the kid basically goes to this little old Japanese guy or whatever. And he's going to teach him how to do karate, and he puts them to work, and he's basically telling him, he's like -- he wants him to paint the fence. And you must paint it this way or whatever, it's like stroke up and down, no side to side or whatever, it has to be up and down or whatever the whole nine yards. And then he has him wax his car, and basically once in the wax or whatever, doing these circles or like this, things like wax this way, wax on, and then off with your left hand. So basically, he's like teaching him, all these things, whatever Daniel-san or eventually gets pissed off or he goes, you're supposed to be teaching me karate and you're doing all this weird shit. It's like, I don't know anything or whatever, and then basically they have this fight scene. He goes paint defense, so he tries to throw a punch and Daniel-san goes and does the paint motion or whatever, and it's a block or whatever for the thing coming or whatever. Then he's like, wax the car [laughs]. Each one of these moves is a karate move or whatever, and he was getting him used to it by doing these things, that made no sense. And that's exactly the type of shit that my gender therapist was doing. A great thing would be one of the first questions he asked me, he's like, if I told you to put a tutu on and go dance in front of your house, would you do it? And I was like no, it's freaking crazy or whatever, and all the people will think I'm nuts or whatever, and the whole nine yards. And it was nothing about that, there's nothing about, putting on a tutu, it was everything about self-confidence. And me not caring about what other people thought, and it's like, I did not get it [laughs]. But later on, I was like, now I know exactly what the hell he was talking about, so it's kinda like that Karate Kid moment or whatever. Where he's talking about things or whatever and you're not getting it, you know the whole nine yards, and then later on it becomes perfectly clear. And he did a lot of shit like that with me and, [laughs] it's like doing this crazy shit or whatever, it's like why the hell are we doing this, what the hell does this mean? And then later going, okay I get it. He ended up being, I would say the right person that I needed at the time, and he helped me out a lot. Kinda like bring me out of my shell, I guess you could say cause I was still primarily closeted at the time. And you know very afraid or whatever to go out in public or whatever because all my public experiences to-date was absolutely horrible, and they weren't getting any better [laughs]. And I wanna say for the next two years or whatever after that they didn't get any better [laughs]. And he was sort of like preparing, basically he's like you need to build up some tolerance or whatever and not care about what other people think or whatever, it's like you're doing this for you. You're not doing this for them and who cares what they think and so on and so forth. And he really instilled a lot of that into me, so got me to change my perspective on things, which was very important at the time, it's like if you're going down this path or whatever, those are the types of skills that you needed. And it's like he would say -- I would say he was the first person that actually really helped me. So, there's the psychologist that I had seen years ago, and they were not helpful. Telling somebody about it was actually helpful, but they weren't doing anything to help me per se, other than being a place to vent [laughs]. So, the funny thing is that I still have -- and I see a psychologist today, I don't even see a gender therapist anymore. But I see a psychologist today and I feel I'm back to, she's just a place to vent [laughs]. It's not really necessarily helping me, but I have not necessarily given up or I still have the need to basically go vent to somebody on occasion. So I kept her around, [laughs]. NB: I think that's a pretty good idea given where we're at right now CP: Yes exactly. NB: Well unfortunately, we are running out of time. We have about 5 minutes left. CP: Oh wow. There is so much more I can tell you [laughs]. NB: Oh my goodness. Well, is there anything, before we wrap this interview up the next 5-10 minutes, is there anything else about your life story that you wanna talk about that we haven't gotten to yet? CP: Oh yeah, absolutely. Sports has been a major thing in my life. So the whole transition and things like that, it's kinda like ignited this thing where it's like I needed to get control of my life. And getting control of my life basically, I changed a lot of things, and one of the things that I had changed is is that, I spent an awful lot of time going through marriage and things like that being sort of depressed. And I drank a lot, did a lot of what I would say bad behaviors or whatever and things like that. And so when I separated from my ex, one of the things I wanted to do was basically get control of my life or whatever, get healthy again and things like that. And it started getting back into my -- if you go all the way back to high school and even some college or whatever, is like I was always in into sports or whatever a little bit and I was like, I wanna get back into things. I really felt that kind of like -- it was somewhere I needed to be [laughs]. And it's sort of weird, the way that went because it's really driven a whole lot of my life later. And it's very much tied with my transition or the whole nine yards. And so before I transitioned, and things like that, but when I started -- the health kick really started before I got divorced and went through the whole suicide thing and the whole nine years. It really started with my thyroid went. My thyroid went and I started gaining a lot of weight, and I had been, let's say, an occasional cyclist at that point in time. In order to offset some of the weight gain that was going on with my thyroid, I started ramping up my cycling. I started doing more and more of it, as a way to try to control the weight gain or whatever that was going on. I found out later, the funny thing is that, it ended up playing into it helping me get diagnosed with a thyroid condition. So, it was creating a lot of cardiac issues at the time, the thyroid problem. So, I was also seeing a cardiologist and the cardiologist was just driving himself nuts. He could not figure out what the hell was causing all these cardiac issues going on. So, at a meeting he asked me, what did you do this weekend? And I'm like, I did a bike ride on Saturday and Sunday, and he goes, how far did you go? And I said, I did about 40 miles on each day, so I did about 80 miles, and he goes, how much weight did you lose? I'm like, I didn't, I actually gained 5 lbs. [laughs]. And he goes, you biked 80 miles over the weekend, and you gained 5 lbs., and I'm like, yeah, I said, if I didn't, I probably would've gained 20, and he goes, holy shit. And he says, are you seeing your -- my general physician or whatever again? And he said, yeah, he's sending me for another batch of blood tests, or whatever. He goes, I want to see if there's one on there, and he goes, if it's not, I'm gonna add one. And he added the test or whatever, to basically test -- I forget what it is or whatever, but there's something that basically elevates in your blood if your thyroid is not working. Mine was off the freaking chart [laughs]. So he added the test for it, and it came back, it was also a freaking chart or whatever, so. But at any rate I was ramping up my cycling of more and more, which was actually, getting me more and more into, like a fitness routine type of thing. And so, after I got on the thyroid medication, I stopped gaining weight. Now I was cycling to lose all the weight that I had put on, I had to put on over 100 lbs. From when my thyroid went, to where I was when we finally got on the medication. It probably would've killed me within 6 months if they didn't figure it out [inaudible]. So, my fitness cycle, getting into cycling just continued from that point forward, and I never stopped it, and that then led into transition. It's quite literally one of the reasons why my bike was in the back of the truck. So cycling was always a way for me to like get out in the middle of the woods, like up on the trail to think about things, it's like, what the hell do I do in this situation? It was a place that basically get some clarity and things like that. So, it fit very much into my life, and I always wanted to be an active person. I wasn't -- there was a long time where I wasn't as active, but I was like partially active. We would go camping, have a camping trailer out there [laughs]. Any place where everyone camping, I went out hiking, [laughs] things like that, wife and things like that would not, but I would grab the kids or whatever. It's like let's go on a hike, or let's go on a bike ride and so on and so forth. And, I was always attempting or whatever to be active. It's just that there's lots of times where I was not. Once I separated from my ex, then I just became more and more active, I was biking all the time and so on and so forth. When I started transitioning, I found that HRT and things like that had a major impact, on all of my athletic activities, and I was struggling with it, and my doctors, and things like that, they had never treated a person who was like an athlete at the time. So, they were struggling with, we don't know how to tell you how to deal with these things or whatever because we don't normally treat athletic people who are going through HRT, and things like that and that was leading to problem. And I was having a lot of problems that they couldn't explain. And the funny thing is that I know what a lot of them are now, but it's, [laughs] So I've been through one hell of a medical journey. [laughs] but eventually that led to me is that I got connected with a woman who was starting up a transgender cycling team and that opened up a world to me. So, I ended up joining because I wanted to connect with other transgender cyclists who were, are you having these types of problems. With somebody to talk to or whatever and things like that, cause I wasn't getting answers from like the medical community and things like that. It's like, well, let's -- I didn't know any other athletes, I didn't know any other cyclists or whatever who were transitioning and things like that or whatever. It was like, I didn't have anybody to talk to and joining that team gave me people to talk to and I'm still a very active cyclist today. I call myself a semi competitive cyclist, I'm not very good, [laughs] so you'll never hear about me. So, in other words, I'm not gonna be the next Lia Thomas of the world or anything like that. I'm one of the many, I don't wanna say millions or whatever, but let's say thousands of transgender athletes out there that are basically not that good. So they don't put a spotlight on us type of thing. So for every Lia Thomas of the world, I wanna say there's probably thousands of others that are just not making the headlines because if you're losing, then it's not a story, [laughs ]. So I've been basically losing for years. [laughs] I'm well aware of what women's sports is like. I see all the bigotry, I see all the misogyny, I also see the lack of participation and things like that or whatever, it's like I see all of the bad and good. There's lots of good as well, don't get me wrong or whatever but there's a whole other side of the world or whatever when you kind of open that up. And so I am by the way, I'm trying to get more women involved in sports or whatever because the only time I've ever won is by default. So eg. or whatever, if you only get three women showing up and one of them has happens to be a transgender woman. Guess what? All three of you are making the podium. [laughs] Okay, so the only time I ever managed to get onto a podium at an event is because by default, [laughs]. Any time I've actually competed with other -- and there's much more of a story here or whatever. I'm actually pretty good in my age group, okay, but I wanna say 95% of the time, I'm not racing my age group, I'm racing a lot younger people. And then the younger people are a hell of a lot better than I am. [laughs] So I cannot compete with the younger people. So 90% of the time, 95% of the time when I'm competing with the younger people, I'm gonna come in last. If I managed or whatever to get into a master's race where I'm actually competing with people my age, I actually do fairly decent. I also do better at some distance races and things like that, but I'm still not considered an elite athlete at all or whatever and I'm just an entry level type of person or whatever. But the fact that I -- that I'm out there competing or whatever is to believe it or not a pretty big step. Plus I see what it takes, it's like I have a full time job, I have a full time life that really gets in the way of trying to maintain an athletic schedule. And I know what it takes to be a mediocre athlete, [laughs] I don't have the time to put into to get to that elite level anyway. Because unless you've got somebody paying for it and you can do it like, let's say 24/7, you're just never gonna be able to make it there. So unless you're and it's not worth anybody to invest in me or whatever cuz I'm already almost 55 already in a master as it is anyway. So another, it's basically I'm not gonna be heading to the Olympics or anything like that anytime soon, [laughs] unless like half the population was to die off or something. [laughs] It's like if you're like the last person or whatever that they would choose to go, it'd be like me over a couch potato. Yeah, [laughs] but I have experience, I know what the competition is like, I know strategy and things like that or whatever, but it's I'm not good enough to ever make it to that level. So because of that, you'll never hear of me, the funny thing is that I meet all the other goals or whatever. So I'm big, I stand out, I look like I'm gonna dominate type of thing or whatever. But in reality, the answer is like, nope, so therefore you'll never hear about me. NB: Not happening? CP: What's that? NB: Not happening? CP: It doesn't fit their mode of the story that they wanna tell. But anyway, that's been tremendous to me. So, the girl who started up the team or whatever, that was the first transgender sports team ever. So yeah, so I was on the first ever transgender sports team, it was the transnational women's cycling team, and it existed from 2017 to 2019. We did three active seasons of racing, so yes, if you go look at my racing schedule. You will see that I actually did a couple of races or whatever where I was listed underneath the transnational women's cycling team. It's kind of interesting or whatever that I do a lot more than what I get credit for. So, there's only so many races or whatever they basically like count or whatever towards your, let's say, your official record. So, like for example, I do a race every Thursday night, you have to have a license to participate in the race. But it does not count towards your record, it's considered a training race. So, the idea is that basically you do that race to basically build up your skills necessary to participate in the real races. So, it's absolutely vital or whatever that you participate in a series like that, but you don't get any credit for it. So, it's like I've done like thousands and thousands of races, but I think my race record is like maybe 27 races, [laughs] It's not that impressive. But my experience level is significantly higher. [laughs] NB: Yeah CP: So like for example, I've done the Tour to Tucson twice, the Tour to Tucson is not an official USAC sanctioned race. The reason why a lot of people do it is, is that it's in the off season. So in other words, it's a bike race, it's primarily a charity bike race. And a lot of elite cyclists will actually go do the race, it just doesn't count, [laughs] to the thing. So, -- and I've actually done fairly well at that race, so like in the top third. So, like for example, the one year I came in 25th out of 133 women, I think. So that's decent, nowhere near the podium, [laughs] But that's, I'm not a slouch either. So I'm not in like the 33 women who came in like after the 100, [laughs] So, no, I was in like the top -- I don't know what is it? At the top, I'm the eighth or something. NB: That's pretty impressive. CP: Yeah, so, but anyway, so I do okay, nothing record smashing or anything like that or whatever, but it's like I can do pretty decent things. It's just that it's not that -- yeah, nobody cares. Well I care, [laughs] What it really comes down to is that I care, lots of my friends care or whatever and things like that. The cycling scene or whatever is a pretty social atmosphere or whatever, and I absolutely love the groups that I'm involved in and things like that. I'm in four different cycling teams, by the way, [laughs] NB: Wow. CP: So and I'm pretty active in just about all of them. 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