Thomas Duane, June 12, 2022 (Part 4)

Thomas Duane, June 12, 2022 (Part 4)

Thomas Duane recounts his time in the State Senate fighting for legislation like the Sexual Orientation Nondiscrimination Act (SONDA) and Mental Health Parity (Timothy's Law), as well as his personal relationships with HIV and addiction.

Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives

Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives

2022-06-12

Copyright remains with the interview subject and their heirs.

video

LGBT-36

Mary Foltz

Thomas Duane

01:46:30

5.4 June 12, 2022 Thomas Duane, June 12, 2022 (Part 4) LGBT-36 1:46:29 LVLGBT-2022 Stories of Lehigh Valley LGBTQ+ Community Members (2022 - ) Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository Support for the collection of this interview was provided by the American Council of Learned Societies (ACLS). trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Thomas Duane Mary Foltz video/mp4 DuaneThomas_202202612_video_trimmed.mp4 1.0:|29(13)|60(8)|81(5)|104(3)|125(5)|146(8)|165(12)|186(14)|209(3)|232(4)|253(16)|276(11)|303(2)|318(9)|339(6)|358(18)|377(13)|396(10)|419(7)|440(17)|457(4)|472(9)|489(8)|516(4)|537(3)|560(8)|575(12)|596(4)|615(3)|640(7)|659(5)|678(15)|705(9)|724(4)|751(2)|768(15)|795(3)|816(13)|835(12)|852(5)|863(14)|882(13)|903(3)|920(5)|937(4)|958(6)|979(9)|996(11)|1013(8)|1036(17)|1059(5)|1082(13)|1101(4)|1118(12)|1139(9)|1166(9)|1183(10)|1204(4)|1227(9)|1244(14)|1261(13)|1280(7)|1301(4)|1322(4)|1341(10)|1362(15)|1385(2)|1404(4)|1427(10)|1450(7)|1477(5)|1492(3)|1509(16)|1534(9)|1551(10)|1574(15)|1599(9)|1618(16)|1641(15)|1660(11)|1675(11)|1698(10)|1717(15)|1742(5)|1759(13)|1778(15)|1801(4)|1816(15)|1837(9)|1860(5)|1883(12)|1908(7)|1929(7)|1954(10)|1981(8)|1996(17)|2017(10)|2032(12)|2057(10)|2084(12)|2111(3)|2132(6)|2153(7)|2180(14)|2203(2)|2226(14)|2239(14) 0 https://youtu.be/3SK7Ws54klc YouTube video English 0 Interview Introductions MF: My name is Mary Foltz, and I'm here with Senator Tom Duane to talk about his life and experiences as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. This year our project has funding from ACLS, and Senator Duane and I are meeting on Lehigh's Campus because he came back for the reunion. &#13 ; &#13 ; TD: My first one. 0 129 Transition from City Councilman to State Senator MF: I can also give you digital copies if you wanna share with family, so we'll talk more about that later. So we talked last time, I'm just gonna jump right in about all of your work with city council. And I'm curious if we could move to this sort of transition from city council and your movement into a state Senate. So I'm just gonna start with a basic question, how did that happen? Why were you interested in the Senate? Can you share a little bit of that story? 0 478 Relationship between Democrats and Republicans in Assembly TD: So then Senate majority leader just let it go through, but Senator Bruno, when he became leader, eliminated it, domestic partner benefits. So, I never want to waste an opportunity, I requested that he reinstate it. Because it wasn't just for me, I didn't even have a domestic partner, but the employees, some of whom had already signed up for it, mostly Democrats. I'm not sure about the Republicans at that time, staff members, but it was grotesquely unfair. 0 814 Hate Crimes Legislation TD: Anyway, [coughs] one of the things that had languished in the Senate for a long time was hate crimes legislation. And I believe I talked about my history of -- I had been beaten up in the parking lot of a gay bar. And severely, it was more certainly -- I bruised ribs, bruised a little bit bloody, but the scary thing was I didn't know what they had a weapon or not. And I went to the hospital reported it to police, and they caught the perpetrators. 0 1267 Fighting HIV Misconceptions TD: So before shot person, they had these bills that for -- these past before I got there for police officers, state police, firefighters that if you had to retire because you were ill with AIDS, it was presumed that you got it on the job. Also correctional officers. I think that was the bill where I first it came to the floor. &#13 ; &#13 ; Now these bills had even passed the assembly with Democrats where you would think they would be more enlightened and, it enraged me. And one of the bills said that if someone needed to be transported from a nursing home to a hospital or a hospital to a nursing home. The medical staff from the emergency services were entitled to have the patient tested for HIV and I really couldn't believe it. And actually, this senator was a pretty intelligent senator in this scheme, and I -- so I started debate and I was like what would be different? 0 1873 Work with Incarcerated Individuals / Creating a Rapport with the Other Side of the Aisle TD: So anyway. I've never thought of myself as a very good debater. But I could compete, I found out. And one time there was this bill that said that if someone who – oh they loved incarceration bills. My God, sex offenders, incarceration like all the time. Oh, they had to like -- what else, where else can we put a higher penalty or something, anyway. This bill said that if someone broke parole that they had to no matter what, serve out the entirety of their sentence. &#13 ; &#13 ; And the time, the New York prisons were overcrowded so they were letting people out earlier. People will get out early. If you got a 15 year sentence you could probably get out years before. But if you broke parole you would have to stay. So, I said to the Senate, well how many people would this impact? How many -- well of course he had no idea about that, but he should have. I would have, he had no idea. 0 2165 First Couple of Years in the Senate TD: So, that those first couple of years, a little bit of a blur I guess. And also we, the legislature was always unable to agree on a budget that the governor who then was Governor Pataki, a Republican. They could never agree on a budget. So we would be there all year long at least once a month, we would have to go up for a continuing resolution or sometimes we had to stay for a few days. And in retrospect, I think there was an awful lot of senators that had additional families there. And I think they liked staying there a while longer. 0 2310 September 11th Attack / Primary Day in New York City TD: So, in 2001 was the bombing of the Trade Center and that was in my district, and it was a Democratic primary day in New York City. And I had been out handing out cards for a candidate that I was supporting. And then a little before nine, someone sorta – someone relieved me at that location. &#13 ; &#13 ; So, I went back to my apartment to have a cup of coffee or whatever because she started six in the morning, when the polls open. And I was listening to the radio, and they said the plane had crashed in the trade center. And they said it was must have been just a small plane and then it was, no it’s a huge plane. And then I turned on the TV and so it was happening. And then I had a view ; I could look out my window and see it. And I really don’t quite know how to talk about it. 0 2860 Other Relationships Made during Time in Senate TD: And my district also has this museum, the Intrepid, it's an old battleship. And the executive director, who my gaydar, that meter was went off the rails with him, couldn't go high enough. He offered to me to offer to Senators to take a boat and go down and look at it from the river, so I did that. He was on my grudge list later on for other reasons, he did eventually come out, you're welcome, I'll tell you what it was. 0 3196 Sexual Orientation Nondiscrimination Act (SONDA) TD: So, after my – so our terms are two years. So, my second term, I was determined to get SONDA to pass, which was Sexual Orientation Nondiscrimination Act, I guess ; it was a gay rights bill. And, I was also determined to include gender identity and expression in it and the bill that passed the Assembly for many years, but it never passed the Senate, even without gender identity/expression. 0 3882 Work Improving Women and Children's Welfare TD: But this senator who was the county exec who did lock us all in because I asked that question, not of him, but of another senator. I asked him to come to New York with me. And I wanted to show him, -- Mayor Giuliani had this policy that if you were on public benefits, you had to work. So, there were, especially women with children who were going to school to try to -- because education is key. But maybe they're going to school at Manhattan Community College or Brooklyn Community College. But they were assigned to clean a park in the Bronx, and children go to school and doing it was impossible. It was impossible for them. And it made it so they just couldn't -- 0 4152 Other Work in the Senate TD: So that's the kinda -- those are the – he voted for hate crimes, he didn’t vote for SONDA. I was very upset about that. And then someone said to me, “Well did you ask him?” And I said [laughs] no because I thought -- it never occurred to me that he wouldn't vote for it. His daughter had a huge influence on him, and I don't think he asked her about SONDA, he asked her about hate crimes. He wasn't in office when marriage came up, but he said that she would have like [swipes hand]. 0 4663 Experiences with Addiction TD: I just hesitated because we haven't talked about this, but there's something very personal that happened with me when I went to Albany that I did. You can decide whether or not you want to use it, I'm fine with it. So I'm in recovery from drugs and alcohol for now 39 years, and I have issues of food and money and people. Not gambling except, I have no problem with slot machines or things like that. But anything involving skill, because I'm an ADHD, I would -- if It was poker or 21, I would never leave because I would have to think about it. 0 5138 Fighting against Abuses of Power TD: One of the bills that I fought very hard for was to make it possible for people who had been abused by persons in positions of authority. And this was not popular among my colleagues, and everyone thought it was, there were a lot of people who said, oh you're just anti-catholic. I'm like, no, and this isn't even just about that. It's about boy scout leaders and coaches and the person down the block, this is not particular, it's not not about them. 0 5976 Mental Health Parity (Timothy's Law) TD: So anyway, parity for mental health not to sell this. You know, when you're in the minority, you really have to can't do like a lot of bills. Because when I was in the majority, I just shoveled out bills for two years. I just, I passed more bills in the assembly health committee. So he couldn't get -- he couldn't keep up with me because –“We can’t pass because the Republicans won't do it”. Well, I was literally shoveling out these bills. 0 6208 Closing Remarks / Reflections&#13 ; TD: It was well, you know, well, I -- I went to a reunion. I took a picture of me holding this sign because it was three classes because of the pandemic and I left in ’75. I finished over two of my courses about class of ‘76, but it took me until ‘77 to complete those two courses. 0 MovingImage Thomas Duane recounts his time in the State Senate fighting for legislation like the Sexual Orientation Nondiscrimination Act (SONDA) and Mental Health Parity (Timothy's Law), as well as his personal relationships with HIV and addiction. MARY FOLTZ: My name is Mary Foltz, and I'm here with Senator Tom Duane to talk about his life and experiences as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. This year our project has funding from ACLS, and Senator Duane and I are meeting on Lehigh's Campus because he came back for the reunion. THOMAS DUANE: My first one. MF: For which I'm so happy about, and today is June 12, 2022. So, before we begin the interview, I want to say first thank you for joining me today. And then I just want to go back through some consent questions which you already know, but I'll do them again, so do you consent to this interview today? TD: I do. MF: Do you consent to having the interview transcribed, digitized, and made publicly available online and in other formats? TD: I do. MF: Do you consent to the LGBT Community Archive using your interview for educational purposes and other formats, and that could be in articles, on websites, and in presentations? TD: Entertainment too? MF: But you are entertaining. TD: [laughs] Yes, anything, it's an open book, I can send to it all, the only secrets I don't tell are the ones I don't remember. MF: Okay, [laughs] that's probably the same for me. And then do you understand that you'll have 30 days after I give you electronically the transcript of this interview to review it, to identify any parts that you would like to delete, or you could withdraw the whole interview from the project? TD: I wouldn't do that, but I do have to be honest, I did not read the other one yet. So, there's a part of me that's like, oh just let it go, but I responsibly, I probably should read it, so I'm sorry, I haven't done that. MF: You can let it go if you want or review it and just tell me what you wanna do with it. TD: I mean, it's nice to have my own copy of it too so. MF: I can also give you digital copies if you wanna share with family, so we'll talk more about that later. So we talked last time, I'm just gonna jump right in about all of your work with city council. And I'm curious if we could move to this sort of transition from city council and your movement into a state Senate. So I'm just gonna start with a basic question, how did that happen? Why were you interested in the Senate? Can you share a little bit of that story? TD: I had been in the city council for I guess six going on seven years, and my local state senator, a woman named Catherine Abate, was going to give up her seat to run for New York State attorney general. So, there was going to be an open state Senate seat, and it's great that I get to tell my own story. There had been a term limits referendum that won twice in New York City, but I had a few years left that I could have stayed in the city council. So, I just wanna say I did not run for the Senate because term limits were you know, because I love being on the city council, but there was an open state Senate seat. And so much of New York City is controlled by the state. If we passed and this happened -- recently the council passed a plastic bag ban. And because of the rivalry between then Mayor De Blasio and former Governor Cuomo put forward a bag to supersede the city plastic bag ban with different dates, just to, you know. And some of it has always been the case is that way in many states, but some of it was because of the fiscal crisis in the 70s. And at that time, New York City needed the state to help bail them out. Now, the state needs the city to bail it out all the time, but anyway. An open seat and my council district was wholly within it. And people said, why would you ever wanna be in the minority in the Senate, you can't get anything done? And I thought to myself, if you think you can't get anything done, you're not gonna get anything done, and I was like, I'm gonna get stuff done. So, a little outrage in that, right? But I thought that was such a poor attitude, and there had never been an openly gay member of the state Senate. There had been Deborah Glick was in the assembly from 1990, then I got elected in 1990 went to the council, but she was the only out legislator. And I thought it was important to have representation, and I knew that there would be other openly queer people coming into the council very soon, and there's always more work to do. But a number of things which we've talked about had happened and advancement had been made, so I ran for the Senate, and I was unopposed. So that was easy, and I raised money just in case because the best offense is a good defense. And Catherine, the person who I was gonna succeed, she said that they were all asking what's he like? What's he like? Because they knew I had been a member of Act Up, and she said, oh you'll see when he gets there. And so I had to hire staff there. So, I went up a little bit in advance with my then chief of staff to interview people. And there was a state Senator there, who I sort of bumped into as I was, sort of taking a tour around, who didn't wanna shake my hand. Now, it could have been because of HIV. Could also be that he just wasn't a very nice person. He wasn't shaking the hands of Democrats, but it was very off putting, and I was to find out that there was tremendous ignorance about HIV, really shocking. Because I've already sort of gone through it in the city council, and now from 1992, now in 1999 with a whole new group of people, I was gonna have to go through that. And also I'm sure they had all met gay people before, but they weren't on an equal footing, so that was different. And so off I went and I didn't know no better, so I just went. In fact, the first day I was there, I went over to the majority leader, Senator Joe Bruno, and I said, "Hi, I'm Tom Duane a new state Senator succeeding Catherine Abate," And I said "Senator Bruno, I'm hoping that you will restore domestic partner benefits to the state Senate". The reason I had to say that, that I needed to say it was important to say that was that former Governor Mario Cuomo had instituted domestic partnership for all state employees. And because the legislative branch is separate, they can create their own rules. So then Senate majority leader just let it go through, but Senator Bruno, when he became leader, eliminated it, domestic partner benefits. So, I never want to waste an opportunity, I requested that he reinstate it. Because it wasn't just for me, I didn't even have a domestic partner, but the employees, some of whom had already signed up for it, mostly Democrats. I'm not sure about the Republicans at that time, staff members, but it was grotesquely unfair. I think it was very good that I went in without a lot of preconceived notions. Except that I didn't know the Republicans ran the show, but there were some things I was unprepared for. One of them was that the Republicans treated the Democratic senators really badly and under-resourced us, and I could never understand why they were so nasty and mean. And I found -- what I realized was when the Republicans had been in the assembly, they're usually more than 100 Democrats and 50 Republicans. And the Democrats were terrible to the Republicans in the assembly. So the Republican assembly members, their life's ambition was to get into the Senate. And once they got there, they were determined to do back exactly what had been done to them. So I blame the assembly Democrats and their leadership for creating that kind of poisonous atmosphere. And since we have just gone through a new redistricting year in New York State, because the Democrats controlled the assembly, and the Republicans controlled the Senate. Democrats drew their own lines for their assembly districts, Republicans drew their lines. They made them as winnable as possible for their people, both of them. And then they would come together to draw the congressional lines, and they would protect the incumbents. And then there'd be two or three districts where it would be a toss up, where's a fair fight I guess. And the Republicans did everything to stay in power. The way the constitution reads, there's a certain formula by which -- or a range within which the number, the population can be for a Senate district. So many of the Republicans would have say, 270,000 people, I had 330,000 people in my district. So, they made their district smaller, they split up cities, they counted people who were incarcerated in their districts, so that was one of the ways they maintained power. Another way was they flipped Democrats in marginal districts promising them everything. And I was always happy when they lost to tell you the truth because it was greediness that made them, you know. Of course, people want things to resources to come into their district, but I don't think people vote, they should be voting on bringing home the bacon and as it were only. So, the other thing they did was they added an extra seat one year. That must have been the next redistricting year. [laughs] They just added another seat, so they did everything. And when I was still there, six Democrats became independent Democrats, and then started to vote with the Republicans, so they did everything to stay in power. And much later on, I did get to be in the majority for a couple of years, and I treated them like senators. But there was another council member who a couple of years later joined the Senate. We'd been colleagues in the city council he's a conservative Republican, but we liked each other, we worked well together. He wasn't mean to me, I wasn't mean to -- I wasn't mean to anybody by the way, I just found that ridiculous. And another person and I was really -- a Republican that I very much admired that was just a really, really good guy. His name is Senator Ray Meyer, and he represented the Utica area, and he had been a county executive, Oneida County. So, he hadn't been in the assembly, so he didn't have that hatred. And I actually got a bill passed through him. I have to say, when I talk about some of the things that got passed while I was there or maybe some budget things or policy changes. My name was never really on the documents, my name was never the lead sponsor on anything, my name wasn't even on anything. Many things that I fought for would be stuffed into a budget bill or put into some other bill where everything but the kitchen sink was put in there. Because the Republicans did not like the Democrats to ever be able to say I was the lead sponsor on whatever bill it was that was going through. Anyway, [coughs] one of the things that had languished in the Senate for a long time was hate crimes legislation. And I believe I talked about my history of -- I had been beaten up in the parking lot of a gay bar. And severely, it was more certainly -- I bruised ribs, bruised a little bit bloody, but the scary thing was I didn't know what they had a weapon or not. And I went to the hospital reported it to police, and they caught the perpetrators. And a couple weeks later, I called the local police department, and I said, what's happening with my case? And they switched me to the DA's office, and the DA said, they pled out on a misdemeanor. And I was shocked, because I didn't get to confront them, so to speak. And it's not that I wanted them to have a felony, but I wanted to be face-to-face with them. And anyway, so the bill languished for a long time in the legislature because the legislators of color in the assembly and in the Senate, would not remove sexual orientation from the bill. And because of that, the Republicans in the Senate would not pass it. So my first year, 1999, I gave a speech on the floor about what had happened to me and in great detail, which I don't talk about. I was -- this is the Hamptons, which I -- not exactly lovely, but I was visiting someone, it was a Thursday night, we're visiting some people. And I had driven, I probably borrowed a car from my parents or something to a disco as we had then and loud disco as they always are. And there weren't a lot of people there, so the parking lot wasn't very full or anything. But anyway, at a certain point, midnight, 1 o'clock or something, I had decided to leave and I left and I was walking towards my car. And the car pulled up and two of the people got out of the car and they said saying you fag, on and on with epithets, but menacingly. And then they started to hit me, punch me, kick me. And I had some, I guess training about this, I was afraid if I fought back, well maybe they'd pull out a knife or a gun then. So I protected my head as best as I could and I started yelling, but the music was so loud, no one inside could hear. And so they continued to do until someone finally came out and then they ran back to the car and they drove away. And, I was so upset, not only because I didn't get to confront them, but it was as if it never happened, because the state didn't collect data on hate crimes. And that's all I wanted, because I don't think you can really fight. I hate to say hate, because I don't think, the opposite of love isn't necessarily hate at all. But ignorance and intolerance and I guess an entitlement to beat up people that are different than you, or be violent towards them. Boy, think about the gun violence perpetrated today. But anyway, I gave a very, very impassioned speech on the floor about what had happened to me. And it was a really good speech, if I must say so myself, because I pulled it out. Anyway, there weren't cameras in those days in the Legislature. They didn't want cameras. So it's probably a transcript of it. But I say that they were in the City Council there's any film of me making these speeches that I made that were Tom Duane speeches, I call them. But a couple of the senators wept. There was a very conservative Republican senator, an older man who stood up and said we must do something about this. He voted against the bill, when it came up by the way. But in the moment, he was moved by it. And the next year and I think because I was on it, the legislation passed. It didn't have, I was not, my name wasn't anywhere on it, but your name doesn't have to be on something to be associated with something. And really whoever fights the hardest for something, I think is the person who's you know -- the legislation, if you passed the bill in, your name was the first name on the bill, you got a -- and the governor signed it, you would get this sort of frame thing. It was like a diorama of the signature of the governor, the bill, and then a fancy pen and it's framed with glass. It's like a box, and there would be legislators who had them all over their offices. Honestly, I mean, I really didn't care about that at all. I just wanted the bills passed, which was just funny. I'm happy for people that, -- and I'm saying this sincerely that it was something that they were proud of. And so they could hang up something that was, but people couldn't understand why I didn't care about that. So anyway, my name wasn't on it, but it passed. And it was interpreted to include gender identity and expression, fortunately because I hadn't written the bill. I had my own version of a bill, but that wasn't the one that got passed. And the only way the Republicans would pass it was if it increased penalties. And I again, that was not that important to me at all. But if it helps to get it passed then good. But it made the state division of criminal justice keep statistics on hate crimes from around the state. So I was very happy that, that was the case. And that was in my first two-year term in 2000. And, The other thing that happened before I got there-- [coughs] [coughs] This is allergies not COVID. [laughs] [coughs] Snapshot in time. So before shot person, they had these bills that for -- these past before I got there for police officers, state police firefighters that if you had to retire because you were ill with AIDS, it was presumed that you got it on the job. Also correctional officers. I think that was the bill where I first it came to the floor. Now these bills had even passed the assembly with Democrats where you would think they would be more enlightened and, it enraged me. And one of the bills said that if someone needed to be transported from a nursing home to a hospital or a hospital to a nursing home. The medical staff from the emergency services were entitled to have the patient tested for HIV and I really couldn't believe it. And actually, this senator was a pretty intelligent senator in this scheme, and I -- so I started debate and I was like what would be different? Like what would be different, would you ever go to a dentist that didn't wear? This is pre-AIDS, where they didn't wear protective gear. Would you ever be in a hospital where someone was not wearing a mask and washing their hands? I mean ridiculous. AIDS, HIV doesn't spread like that. And at one point you have to stand behind your seat, and you have to talk to the president of the Senate to keep everything civil. So through you Mr. President if I could ask the sponsor -- anyway. But at one point I moved over to hold the hand of another state Senator. And then when I reached for her hand, I moved away from my seat. And they started an -- arms started to come forward because they thought I was gonna hit the Senator whose bill it was, which I would never have done. But I didn't mind that they thought that, in fact the leader of the Democrats said, "oh yeah, Duane took out a couple of people when he was in the council". But I also, and I said this, this is I think what stopped these dreadful bills from happening. I said according to the New York State Department Health AIDS Institute there are only four ways that you can get HIV. Breast feeding, blood transfusions, sharing needles with an injection drug user, or unprotected oral, vaginal, or anal sex. And I think I was probably the first person to say something like that on the floor of the Senate. And the bills passed anyway, but eventually they stopped bringing these bills forward. I don't think they really understood, they just didn't want me to say that anymore. [laughs] I really think that's what it was, because they knew it was coming any time these bills came to the floor in the Senate. In fact, when I left I said and I just want to say one last time [LAUGH]. I got that unprotected oral, vaginal, or anal sex, again, unprotected -- anyway. This is 1999, 2000. And these bills were passing. And because I kind of made fun of these bills, there are other bills that unions wanted. It was sort of like a free giveaway to their members that wasn't getting an increase in their wages or other benefits, but sort of a freebie benefit that it would be presumed that you got HIV on the job. So their unions that came forward that were like the City University of New York guards, or taxi inspectors. And I shouldn't have, -- I wasn't making light of the professions or I was just pointing out how ridiculous this was. And it was particularly ridiculous, because I had fought to get the division of AIDS services bill passed. These bills made it so that if you retired because you had AIDS, you got to kept making three quarters of your salary and got your benefits etc etc. So which I'm in favor of, of course I'm in favor of that. By the way, no police officer, firefighter, or correction officer ever had AIDS. At least they didn't claim they did. So, but it was a benefit of throw away. And so I actually almost had a primary based on my questioning why a taxi inspector or college security officer would need to, why would we presumed that they got AIDS on the job. And because it implies you can get it through the air. And in New York and other places, people who, like someone who was in a correctional facility, if they spit at a correction officer, the correction officer was entitled to have that incarcerated person tested for HIV. And it didn't even actually have to be in the correctional facilities. It could happen just when you were with law enforcement in the outside world. That was something that people went to jail for that. For spitting or just absurd. But then at least this was, -- well I'm just thinking back on that. It was so shocking to me that people didn't get that in 1999 and 2000 that you couldn't casually contract HIV. Anyway, the candidate who was being put up against me didn't qualify for the ballot. So, I end up not having a primary and we became friendly. And I made peace with the union. I explained to them, look, I just think you need to prove that you got it on the job, then I'm fine with it. But I would say, what is the taxis, are they breastfeeding? Are they sharing needles? Are they having unprotected oral, vaginal, or anal sex? Like, what is in their job description is there that would make it so that they would contract HIV? I did eventually do a bill that was sort of an omnibus bill that said that, in order to get the benefit, you had to get basically a note from your doctor, that you got it on the job. Which maybe if you were a nurse or a doctor or a physician's assistant, in a commercial facility maybe, but still very unlikely. So, and then the other thing I did was I introduced a bill that said that if there's some sort of a dust up between incarcerated person and a correction officer that the incarcerated person was entitled to have the correction officer tested. Which of course was not in favor of either, was to make the point of how absurd it was. But I just, I remember saying that that bill got the emergency, I was like what would be different, what would be different? I mean, I could sort of understand if you would want to know before, though that's ridiculous also. Because you should always be wearing protective gear and people were already transporting people with HIV all over the place, all the time. Maybe that would make a little bit sense. But after the fact, and this was to come up again, by the way, in a sexual assault. If someone was accused of a sexual assault, they were subjected to mandatory testing. And first of all it's wrong because innocent till proven guilty. But also what you would immediately have to do is to give the person who's been assaulted the prophylactic drugs right away. Before you would even have the results of the test, that was the most important thing. And I did later on, as part of HIV/AIDS bill, get in that the state would pay for that. Because prior the victim would have to pay to have their prophylactic treatment and their testing being done. So it was just very very illogical, their approach and of course it also criminalized people with HIV. And in the same way that incarceration is not treated appropriately as often a mental health issue, they were mistreating HIV as well. And I hope they weren't doing it just to pander but I also hope or wish that they knew better. So anyway. I've never thought of myself as a very good debater. But I could compete, I found out. And one time there was this bill that said that if someone who -- oh they loved incarceration bills. My God, sex offenders, incarceration like all the time. Oh, they had to like -- what else, where else can we put a higher penalty or something, anyway. This bill said that if someone broke parole that they had to no matter what, serve out the entirety of their sentence. And the time, the New York prisons were overcrowded so they were letting people out earlier. People will get out early. If you got a 15 year sentence you could probably get out years before. But if you broke parole you would have to stay. So, I said to the Senate, well how many people would this impact? How many -- well of course he had no idea about that, but he should have. I would have, he had no idea. So, the senator that I like so much was actually the acting as the president of the Senate and he banged his gavel down. And he said we're locking the doors. He said we were all being punished. And we all had to stay locked in this [laughs] chamber and if you wanted to go to the bathroom you were escorted by a sergeant at arms. And I would like to be remembered as the person that made them close the doors. But I was remembered for asking if I could choose which sergeant would accompany me [laughs] the bathroom. I just didn't know that something -- in my -- as an elected official I have some, in that role I have some control over my blurting. But sometimes it just gets away [laughs]. So that got in the papers. Listen to me still now, I'm like [sighs deeply]. Like I -- But something else interesting happened with Senator Joe Bruno who changed rather dramatically. While I was there, but he liked me in the same way that Peter Vallone, and the council of conservative Catholic elected official maybe open their eyes. And one time he called me into his office and he said you're pretty smart, but sometimes your tongue is a little sharp. Because I would ask senators questions, Republican senators questions about their bills and they were so used to not being challenged and they were all one house bills or mostly of one house bills. So, they didn't pass the assembly, but they were so used to not having questions asked. They usually couldn't answer my questions and I was prepared for every bill that came up on the agenda with lots of questions, especially when I was gonna vote against it. And so he said your tongue is a little sharp, and what he was saying was "Don't make my guys look stupid". That's mean, he didn't say that's mean, but I have said that is being mean. So from then on -- by the way none of the Democrats picked up on this. They continued their questioning, I just would stand up and I would speak on the bill. I would just list all the reasons why I was opposed to it. I would -- I guess RBG, not that I'm comparing myself, but she always said that she would start off with what she thought the other side would say when arguing a case. And she would answer those questions first. So that's kinda what I did was I answered my own questions, that either would have tripped up the Republicans or would have maybe pointed out the absurdity of it. And I -- so I just spoke, but in a very polite manner. And then my relationship with the Republicans became much much much better. And so he gave me very good advice and I was very fond of him. Even though I believe he tried to entrap me later on, when he was in trouble with the feds over something. But he was senator of his word. And if he couldn't do something, he would say it's just not the time. But he would tell me he was honest about that and I appreciated that. So, that those first couple of years, a little bit of a blur I guess. And also we, the legislature was always unable to agree on a budget that the governor who then was Governor Pataki, a Republican. They could never agree on a budget. So we would be there all year long at least once a month, we would have to go up for a continuing resolution or sometimes we had to stay for a few days. And in retrospect, I think there was an awful lot of senators that had additional families there. And I think they liked staying there a while longer. And I also think that people that came from underserved neighborhoods, food deserts, etc. That they got some extra time than to do shopping and all that because I did. I bought my toilet paper and paper towels and because it was cheaper than Manhattan. Remember one time pulling -- I had a shopping cart in the trunk of my car and a senator said, "why do you have that shopping cart?" and I wanted to say to him "because I'm smart". But I explained to why I had it, so that I could buy bulk items more inexpensively not at Walmarts, but I did go to Kmarts and Targets. There was a huge target in Saratoga, it was like a Super Target. And unlike in New York City, everything's always picked over, the shelves were always full and pristine. I had to -- I was not chasing interns around their desk. And I was also unfortunately eating at receptions and then eating also. So I started to gain weight, which made me unhappy and I look -- and my exercise, it just disappeared. I just, worked all the time, and when I didn't work, I once a month I would go to Target once a month, TJ Maxx once a month or have to [laughs] parcel it out for these little adventures. And living like an American, unlike a New York City person. You know with cars, you throw it in the trunk ; I lived in my car. I still have that habit, snacks, beverages [laughs] in my car, an extra toothbrush, anyway. But we were there all year long. So, in 2001 was the bombing of the Trade Center and that was in my district, and it was a Democratic primary day in New York City. And I had been out handing out cards for a candidate that I was supporting. And then a little before nine, someone sorta -- someone relieved me at that location. So, I went back to my apartment to have a cup of coffee or whatever because she started six in the morning, when the polls open. And I was listening to the radio, and they said the plane had crashed in the Trade Center. And they said it was must have been just a small plane and then it was, no it's a huge plane. And then I turned on the TV and so it was happening. And then I had a view ; I could look out my window and see it. And I really don't quite know how to talk about it. And New Yorkers, you -- the only time we really talk about it is right around 9/11. Even though we all experienced it and it was terrible. I didn't know a lot of people that worked there. They're mostly people in financial services who lived in the suburbs, but I knew some of the law enforcement people. Some of my local firefighters, I knew Father Michael, who is sorta famous. Who was the chaplain to the firefighters, and gay. And probably should be canonized. There's a movement, but they probably won't because he was gay. He's a lovely man. I remember, you know I was in Chelsea, but at a certain point I saw the second tower go down. I was still in my apartment, but then I went out on the street and there were people just covered with 9/11 dust and there were phone booths or street phones in those days. There was no cell service because they were just too jammed or, so people were waiting [in] line to call their families to see that they were alive. One of the things that I did at one point was, and I don't know how we did it, but I got the other elected officials, we came together, we tried to reach out to as many people as we knew who lived down in Tribeca and Battery Park City in the financial district. And we, we sorta made a gathering in a city owned park. It was asphalt or basketball courts just above Canal Street. And it was very moving, because that was the first time that a lot of these people saw each other. And I guess it was a week later. Time is very-- I remember in the way day by day. In retrospect I wish kept a diary. But earlier the sound of the sirens. Of course there were no survivors. So there was but the police sirens and ambulances, fire trucks and just went on and on and they were posters up all over, just 8.5 by 11 printed out sheets. Have you seen this person all over Lower Manhattan? All over the Village, all over Chelsea? Have you seen this person? This person. It was really, really heartbreaking. I had, I would call a particular cousin of mine who lived in New Jersey. And she and her husband knew people in the Trade Center and asked me if I could help to find them, it was not finding anyone. And I heard an NPR announcer on the radio say a couple days later, she said it's another achingly beautiful day in New York City. Because it was every day was bright and sunny and cool and beautiful New York City days. And this terrible smell of this thing that was burning. And I went down there. And there were people, -- the Trade Center was so huge that the firefighters are just volunteers who were like digging through the rubble. They almost look like ants on an ant hill. That's how huge the footprint was, of how this had happened. And you could see, the particles in the air. And anyway I didn't -- it was a very stressful time. And we were called back to Albany. We hadn't done a budget yet. We didn't do a budget at all that year. We never got a budget done at all, kept going back all the time. But the first time, yeah, we went back in the same way that the US Congress passed the Patriot Act bills that only Barbara from the San Francisco area, for the Bay Area, Barbara Lee voted against them. We have been seeing similar kind of bills like roving wiretaps and I voted against all of them. I was the only one that voted against all them, a couple people had voted against like one or two of the bills. But I really, -- why are we restricting our freedom when allegedly what everyone is saying they hate us because we were a democracy and freedom. Which is debatable also, but why are we passing those to restrict people's rights? And the minority leader of the Senate made a speech about how the Trade Center was in his district and I know this isn't a -- yeah, not a big deal, but he did used to represent it, but in a redistricting year and the democratic leader, got to choose their own leader, their own district. Everybody else was just whatever the republicans gave them. So he had opted to not have the Trade Center to have more of Brooklyn in his district. And I was really furious about that, you could say I used to, I know people -- whatever and I was just shocked. And I didn't say anything, but I did lose my temper with him after. Ordinarily I wouldn't lose my temper about something like that, but it was a very difficult time and that primary day was canceled. The canidate I was supporting who had the momentum would have won the council seat and ended up not winning when they voted again. But the smell was still going on. That primary day, it was raining and, and so the smell was still there, but it was different. And I remember someone on his palm card, he was saying to me, can't you do something about that smell? And I was like, no I can't do anything about that. I was gonna say something else I think about the whole, that it was on primary day and so I ended up voting for the primary day that didn't count. The one that did count, then there was a runoff. I voted a lot that year, but we also went to Albany a lot that year, as I say, we never passed another budget. So, we just worked off the budget from the year before. And my district also has this museum, the Intrepid, it's an old battleship. And the executive director, who my gaydar, that meter was went off the rails with him, couldn't go high enough. He offered to me to offer to Senators to take a boat and go down and look at it from the river, so I did that. He was on my grudge list later on for other reasons, he did eventually come out, you're welcome, I'll tell you what it was. I think let's, we'll take a moment from the heaviness and I'll tell a lighter story, so he came out eventually. And, when Governor Paterson stepped in, when Governor Spitzer stepped down, there was an email exchange between Governor Paterson and this guy where he said, "I'll do everything, anything I can to help you, especially if you end up running against Andrew Cuomo," and he said, "because I'm a gay and I can be helpful and I'm a gay, but I'm not a gay like Tom Duane". Not a gay like Tom Duane. And I said, I have that, he deleted it. Probably not because of the, "I'm not a gay like Tom Duane," probably because it was an anti-Cuomo thing, and little did he know that actually Andrew Cuomo at some point just started to completely control what Governor Paterson, the worst governor New York City has ever had, was doing. So anyway, I'm not a gay like Tom Duane. And because I was a Senator, when marriage passed, because of my involvement, I got invited to some classy weddings. And I went to a couple of them, but I was invited to his wedding and I did not attend and I did not send a gift. And the other thing about him was that, I had a bad feeling when Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton were running for president and people would say to me, "Well you don't think Donald Trump could really win," and I would be like "I -- yeah, no I do," but people would freak out. So, I stopped saying it and I just said. [shurgs] But he was every news, TV news thing led off with him, every newspaper, there was something about him on the front page. And he was, as the president of Viacom said, he was paid a lot of money for the networks and for you know. And Americans are very -- I would say you know, TV is the beginning of social media and its evils. Because and especially by then there were all these other news stations that people were watching. But I was invited to her victory party which was very close to where I lived. It was at the New York convention center, and I lived just a few blocks from there and I didn't go, I just had a bad feeling. With the point of the story is, so this newly married couple were at Hillary's headquarters, when they realized that she lost, they walked over to the Trump headquarters and said whatever you want. And they got stuff. And a little later on I was walking down my block and it was fairly quiet day and they lived in a loft building just a half a block away from me. And there were all these cars parked, all these secret service looking and police cars, and I realized that they must be having some sort of a party or something. They were having a party for this Ambassador Grenell that was appointed one of the only openly gay people in Trump administration. Who was just a right wing, like he was sent to Germany too. Where he loved, the President of Austria. Loved all these despots and he was our-- Angela Merkel was like the beacon of the free world at the time, and that's where they sent him. So they were having a party for him. That's another point of that story. Maybe we'll come back to 9/11, but I am very upset still about those bills that got passed because they can be so misused. And we see on the federal level, I mean that everyone gets to see that. Everyone gets to see how those laws have been just used to do terrible things, and to really take away civil liberties. That the president can say we're at war without even going to Congress, if the president wants to. Unheard of in our democracy. So, after my -- so our terms are two years. So, my second term, I was determined to get SONDA to pass, which was Sexual Orientation Nondiscrimination Act, I guess ; it was a gay rights bill. And, I was also determined to include gender identity and expression in it and the bill that passed the Assembly for many years, but it never passed the Senate, even without gender identity/expression. So, the assembly built didn't have that wording in it, and this is a case where money is poisoned politics. A lot of wealthy, New York, white guys started spreading money around. They made a deal with Governor Pataki that they would make no endorsement in the gubernatorial race if he would be supportive of SONDA passing. I guess Joe Bruno was on board. By the way, in the meantime, I got to meet and became a little bit friendly with Joe Bruno's gay brother. And, later on I did a couple of things where they weren't really getting along and I got them, I put -- got them sort of back together, speaking with each other. But I -- my bill included gender identity/expression. The bill that moved through the Assembly, that landed in the Senate did not have that in it. And I believed that the bill could pass that would not make any difference, if it includes gender identity, no vote, not one vote would change. Mostly people wouldn't even notice it was in there and if they did, they were gonna and there were no voters they were voting no anyway. And the yes people were not gonna not vote for it because it was in there. So I was very upset, and I went to Joe Bruno and I said we need to put this in because if we don't put it in, it's gonna be a decade before it can't -- it won't go on its own. And he said to me you have a point there and I think he would have done it. But these rich guys were too afraid that it might not pass, they didn't wanna have to, the assembly, have to pass the bill again with extra language in it. And so I put an amendment on the floor when the bill came up, something else terrible had happened. No, no, what is it? Well, but he was not a party, I'm telling you. I was playing chicken with the bill. I wouldn't commit to supporting it if it didn't include gender identity and expression, which is not. And Marty Connor, who had been our leader, was dethroned and David Paterson became the new minority leader and these three gay men asked if I would sort of make an introduction to him officially. And one of them was something I've known for many years. It had not been a perfect relationship, it was a political relationship. He represented real estate interests, but he also helped a lot of queer organizations. Then there was the head of the statewide LGBT Organization, it took me a minute to think of it. It's not just [inaudible], but I blocked it out, The Pride Agenda, it was called The Pride Agenda. It was -- I think they had like used a brand or something to come up with that name so that--anyway, just put the initials in. But anyway, The Pride Agenda. The head of The Pride Agenda and this other wealthy gay man, and on the way up, Ethan said to me, "Well, but if the bill comes up, will you vote for it?" I said, "Of course I'll vote for it, of course I will". And one of them went to the press to the New York Times and they called me and asked me, so it made me look like a liar. I was so upset, like why did they do --? It was terrible, I was very -- I knew it was a tactic, Of course I would vote for it, but I did put an amendment on the floor. Most of the democrats voted for it, but I was very angry. I knew it was going to pass anyway, there was no, it was going to pass. The deal had been made, the deal had been cut. So I said, I think some angry words about people that didn't wanna put gender identity and expression. And when the celebration afterwards, there were some people that wouldn't shake my hand, you know congratula -- Mind you, I was the one that you know -- I was the only Sen -- I like -- hate crimes. My name was not on the bill, but there was no doubt, that I was pushing it the force behind it, yeah, other people wanted it, but I was annoying about it. And then one of them started to call my campaign donors and told them not to give me money anymore. It's all right, there were enough people in the world that I could raise enough money to keep going. But I just thought that was -- because for as long as I can remember, I had been, I'm passionate about the rights of people who we would, now say non-binary, regardless of their gender identity/expression. It was just something I always, I don't know I can't imagine any other -- feeling any other way. And so I was really upset. It took 20 years, not 10 years. It took 20 years to get it passed. And there was something wonderful that happened. I was out of the Senate, and it got passed when Governor Cuomo was governor and he was signing at the LGBT center. And I had stuff with Governor Cuomo prior to this which I'll probably talk to you about. A lot because he broke my heart. Anyway the Executive Director Glenda Tessa, who I love, of the center was making introduction to assembly members. And senator so and so, and council member, borough president. And then our own former New York State Senator Tom Duane and they're like, [inaudible] gave me a standing ovation. And even though I couldn't get it passed, they knew how much I fought to try to make it happen. I'm very grateful for that. All right let's move out of this. So then when the governor with whom I'd had stuff with and had not spoken to me at all for years, he saw the reaction so he couldn't not say something. So he said "I know Tom Duane. We go way back, you know my father had AIDS." and I thought -- because I'll tell you there'll be more -- this big relationship, and non-relationship with Andrew Cuomo and I was a supporter of his father's. What about us? But anyway when they do the ceremony thing and he does a letter. And he gives a pen away as he's signing his name and somebody go up there and get a pen. So I went up and I got a pen from him and as I was walking away, he turned and he said, "Are we okay?" I said "Yes governor, we're okay". I had to forgive him. I didn't know about all the stuff that was to come out afterwards. But at that time, I forgave him for the way he had treated me really after marriage passed in New York. But sometimes say for some elected officials, it's just business and I know that and I wouldn't take things personally. But I work better with people that had a core, even if they were for the death penalty or they're anti. If this was something, well then we could talk about it. But if someone's just doing it because they were pandering or afraid for their district. They're not gonna change their mind if they already know better. The fact when marriage passed, there were many Republicans hugging and kissing me who hadn't voted for because they were afraid to. But they were so happy that it passed. And so a whole other story with the governor to wanting to make the 11 o'clock news. I kinda have lost my place in the world now. SONDA, everyone mad at me. You know later on when I was in the majority I passed our safe schools act. It was called the Dignity for All Students Act which I couldn't get passed when I was in the minority unfortunately. But it included gender identity and expression, and no one said a word about it. The couple of people who were voting against it were voting against it anyway. And just to prove my point that it really -- not a story except for the people who were impacted or wouldn't be held by anyway. So my second term was SONDA. Now it sounds like that's all, [laughs] I didn't only do queer stuff. I did a lot of other stuff too. I used to say I spent 85% of my time doing you know, when I get 15% of press for it. The 15%, I just spend it on queer stuff. I get 85% [laughs] of my press on that. But this senator who was the county exec who did lock us all in because I asked that question, not of him, but of another senator. I asked him to come to New York with me. And I wanted to show him, -- Mayor Giuliani had this policy that if you were on public benefits, you had to work. So, there were, especially women with children who were going to school to try to -- because education is key. But maybe they're going to school at Manhattan Community College or Brooklyn Community College. But they were assigned to clean a park in the Bronx, and children go to school and doing it was impossible. It was impossible for them. And it made it so they just couldn't -- I used to see women they jump, they run into McDonald's on the way to their classes at Manhattan Community College. And I guess they must have asked a family member to watch their children or something like that. So, how anxious they were to have a better life. But there was a program -- so Mayor Giuliani said they have to go work in par -- not even with working in parks or anything of course. But not because you're poor and you need money to get by on. And mothers would make the best choice. Sometimes they wouldn't make money so they could keep the whole family on Medicaid. Otherwise, they would lose their benefits, they'd lose their food stamps, they'd lose their rental assistance. So they were kinda trapped. But going to school, which is work would not have threatened their remaining having benefits for the family while they went to school. Anyway, I asked Senator Mayer to come to New York because I knew he would understand this. And I brought him to -- there's a group at Hunter College Welfare Rights [Initiative] that really got me engaged in this issue. So we visited with them, we went to Bronx Community College, we went to Hunter, we went to private university as well. And also, we had a meeting with this group called the New York [City] Partnership which is the umbrella group for New York business people. And he was very engaged in what was going on and what people were saying. And when we met with the partnership people, they said look, nothing wrong with cleaning parks, but work study and internship is giving people skills for jobs that we actually have and wanna fill. So, they were very supportive of it. And I remember Senator Mayer saying, are these real jobs? And they are real jobs. They got real jobs, challenging jobs, important jobs. But work that does help to move along in your work life and your career. And he said at what point, "Well aren't we like giving them an extra advantage? What about Joe at the gas station?" Well Joe he can go to community college that's-- but we're making it impossible. So he said, so are we giving this special treatment? I said no we're just not holding them back. And it was like a light, and then he really really got it. And he liked it so much that he started a program up in his district, up in Oneida. And I met the people who were running it and of course they were lesbians. I don't know if he knew [laughs] but yeah, my gaydar was off the charts. But that was thrilling that he liked it so much and he believed. So he was a conservative Republican, but he believed that government actually could help people because he was county exec. Not a mistreated Republican assembly member and he brought it to his county because it really helped people. So that's the kinda -- those are the -- he voted for hate crimes, he didn't vote for SONDA. I was very upset about that. And then someone said to me, "Well did you ask him?" And I said [laughs] no because I thought -- it never occurred to me that he wouldn't vote for it. His daughter had a huge influence on him, and I don't think he asked her about SONDA, he asked her about hate crimes. He wasn't in office when marriage came up, but he said that she would have like [swipes hand]. But there's a whole story about who convinced senators to vote for marriage. And often times it was the spouse, and the family, the kids. In fact, there was this show on Showtime about first ladies and for years and years I said to people -- because Barack Obama, he was in favor of marriage equality when he was a Senate, state senator in Illinois. He checked the box with the gay organization you know, the political group asked a question. But then he backed off when he was running for president. But I said, I'm sure there was some morning when Michelle said "Barack, me and Malia and Sasha. We are not gonna talk to you until you come out in favor of this and on this." You know it's fiction. But it's a very similar saying that it's exactly the way it was with Michelle Obama saying, one of the kids, you know. Not understanding, how could you not vote for civil rights. How could you not be for this? It was a very similar situation. So I know what's going on the White House and I always thought Joe Brun -- I'm sorry, Joe Biden just blurted out that he was for marriage. This television fictional makes it seem as if he was sort of-- that Michelle went to him and asked him to do it. Who knows what really happened. Anyway. Because who doesn't love Michelle Obama, who would never run for president, but I would vote for her in a heartbeat. After 9/11, similar to how veterans got special benefits in New York State, different tax breaks. And also, the spouses of police officers and firefighters who died in the line of duty. I'm applying men, mostly men. That a whole other story of women fighting to get into the fire department particularly. But there are a lot of bills that gave benefits to spouses. And the senator who was the chair of the committee, was the codes committee, that the bills would go through before they came to the floor. He was very conservative. He was very much in favor of the death penalty. I believe he was a former state trooper, and he was a lovely man, and a gentleman, and would listen to critique. So, for instance, there'd be a bill about something having to do with sexual assault, but it never made it never made a differentiation. That's not the right word, but. An 18 year old, and a 16 year old or a 15 year old, is different than a 40 year old, and a 13 year old, but the laws never would make any -- there was no delineating in any way. And when I raised that with him, he -- it gave him pause for thought, and he started to modify the bills a little bit when he could. So, I was happy about that because I knew kids, you know, [inaudible] kids that -- stories like -- this one boy was having a relationship with another boy who was -- one was 18, the other one was 15, lived with his grandmother and his grandmother turned in the 18 year old. He went to Rikers, he went to serve time and get on the sex offenders list. And the level of the sex offender list that you get with the 1, 2, or 3, it depends on how much money you have and what lawyer you have. There is no -- and in New York City, it's impossible to not live near a school, it's impossible. And they're not allowed to live in public housing. And believe me, I do know something about sex offenders and some can go into remission and not reoffend, but you kind of never know. So, a sex offender should never be in a room with a child alone ever. And if they are then it's trouble. But there are ways that people can not reoffend. In fact, I visited a New York State correctional facilities where they had a program for sex offenders. And I was very prepared to think it was not going to be a good program. And in this particular facility, which was run by a woman, it was in Oneida actually, was really, really good. And I got to see the men who first arrived and first started the program and the denial they had about what their offense had been. And then I got to see a group that was ready to finish, and about how they took responsibility for what they had done and new tools to use to help them to not reoffend. But they were all concerned about getting jobs and a place to live when they got out. And the other interesting thing was none of them were victimized when they went back into general population and their other facilities if they had been through this program. There was another program which I didn't get to visit, which I heard wasn't that good, but I was very, very impressed. And it's an area that I know about, and I'll probably talk about. The other thing that I did was I would vote for these bills that gave benefits to the spouses of people who were killed in 9/11 [coughs]. And now of course it's also people, the long term effects of the spouses. But I said, look, I'm voting for the bill, but next year could you add domestic partner in? And he said yes, just don't tell anyone else. I was like fine with me. So there are a lot of things that I made no noise about, but I just got it done. I mean, they had money for HIV/AIDS that came from the federal government. They don't know what to do with it, so they would give it to me to help them to give it around the state where I knew groups, but they would give me money to give away. So, I recall when I say, "Someone is gonna call you and they're gonna tell you how to get $100,000. It's gonna come to you from the state, but do not thank me, just do whatever they say". The Republi -- really all but one liked me, but nobody liked him either. And anyway, so I was able to do things quietly and that was fine. I just wanted to get things done. And by the way, the SONDA, the gay rights bill, my name was not on that bill. It wasn't my bill, but a Republican was the lead sponser. There were no Democrats on the bill. It was always given to a moderate Republican to make them seem moderate, that they with the lead sponsor of these bills. Didn't always help them, but just a funny way to do business, very un-senatorial. I just hesitated because we haven't talked about this, but there's something very personal that happened with me when I went to Albany that I did. You can decide whether or not you want to use it, I'm fine with it. So I'm in recovery from drugs and alcohol for now 39 years, and I have issues of food and money and people. Not gambling except, I have no problem with slot machines or things like that. But anything involving skill, because I'm an ADHD, I would -- if It was poker or 21, I would never leave because I would have to think about it. And I know that because I'd never been to the track before, and Saratoga is a big, you know. They have trotters and we all went on a trip there all the senators and a couple of them knew how to read the score cards. What race is the horse in, they knew who the jockey was, what was the place where they had competed before. And they explained it all to me and I went and I bet and I won, I won and I won, and I placed and I won and I won. I was anxious they weren't gonna get -- because they came to the tables that they were going to get there in time and I didn't want to leave. And as I went out I said, I must never come here again [laughs]. So gambling fortunately, I mean there's no skill involved buying lottery tickets fortunately [laughs]. I guess they share their strategies with those cards to see whether or not they won or not. Anyway, I am also a recovering sex addict, sex and love addict, romantic obsessive, but I'm a garden variety sex addict. When I got elected to the Senate, I said to myself, I don't want to take this with me, I don't want to take this with me. And so I went to a five day outpatient program and I learned a lot, and was able to not completely recover, but it was, let's say harm reduction was much better night, so to go to 12 step meetings. And then I went to, it was my first week in Albany, my staff person, my counsel Mark, who I just love and miss. So, the first week I have to say, I won't be here next week because I'm going to a five day workshop on sex addiction because I'm a sex addict. Anyway, yeah, he went along fine. But that summer, that September, I went to a two week program in Los Angeles and when I finished that program, I never -- I've been sexually sober since then. And sometimes with anorexia, they went from being not an anorexic to being anorexic. But the people at this place when I was talking about what happened in the correctional facility. The place that I went to, they had all trained in the hospital in California called Delano. And there are two tracks in Delano, one was for sex offenders, and one was for garden variety. And at one point they just said, "We're only gonna do sex offenders, so the garden variety people had to go someplace else". And so they started this institute where they also trained therapists, so that's where I went. But they were very tough, you had to say the things that -- I mean, I did not -- my behaviors were not particularly offender behavior. I did have sex with people, but I always used condoms, which of course laws often don't differentiate between [inaudible]. But I was very rigidly since 1983 about safe sex with anyone I had sex with. Anyway, one of the groups, there were just three of us. They were very small, and the place was just starting out, so it was affordable. But there was a man there who molested some of his children and some of his grandchildren. And I have a history of abuse in my family. And he got to hear from me, the impact it had on me, but I also heard his story and his grandfather had molested him. So hopefully he would break the chain, anyway. But the good thing was I was in Albany and I would go to anonymous drugs and alcohol meetings, and I would go to anonymous help group, to help, to say recovery from my sex addiction. And they didn't know who I was, which was great because most of the meetings in New York City, many of them are at the center where people would-- So I was anonymous and it was great. It wasn't until much later on that they found out. And being a senator from Upstate is a much bigger thing than New York City because they would say, "You're a senator like Joe Bruno?" But anyway, they did not know, and I didn't say what I did for work and it was great. The good thing about going to this place was when I left there, the shame that I'd been feeling my whole life lifted, and I realized that I had been living my whole life with carrying this burden of shame that I didn't realize I had until I didn't have it. So right now what's happening is I'm feeling shame because I'm talking about this at all. There's nothing to be ashamed of, there's no reason, but it's a physical thing, it starts here goes up and my face turns a little bit red, and I can feel that I'm having a shame attack, but there's nothing I said to be -- and I'm glad I know that so I'm not carrying that burden. It was such a great burden to be able to unload, you know because-- anyway. So that's why I -- when I went to the correction facility with the people that had been offenders, I kind of had a lot of knowledge about it. It became very -- actually, I thought I might go into the field when I left office. I haven't, but I might still someday. But anyway, it was a great place to recover. And then when I was in New York City I didn't care who saw me go into whatever room. If they saw me they saw me, they didn't, you know what I mean, maybe it was meant to be that way and it's a disease. And I don't know why I was too ashamed to go for such a long time and I was in other groups where people are anonymous. So, I mean who else is there, the same anonymous people. Who are they going to say -- So I don't know why I wasn't able to do it sooner, but I was able to do it when I was able to do it, and I was very glad about that. One of the bills that I fought very hard for was to make it possible for people who had been abused by persons in positions of authority. And this was not popular among my colleagues, and everyone thought it was, there were a lot of people who said, oh you're just anti catholic. I'm like, no, and this isn't even just about that. It's about boy scout leaders and coaches and the person down the block, this is not particular, it's not not about them. I think it does make you crazy and saying, Well, this has bankrupted a lot of diocese. No, they go into bankruptcy on purpose to delay having to give depositions and things. It's a tactic, they transfer the money to a high school or a cemetery, that's how they say it's their bankrupt. They don't go bankrupt because they're paying anything out there, they're delaying that. So since then, New York, they actually did pass it, and I'm really happy about that. But then it was a huge celebration, my God, I was like, -- everybody hated me, but they're all these heroes. Again, I am thrilled that it passed and it gives you a year window opportunity. I don't know actually what my bill said from the time that you reasonably could have recovered the memory. So like a therapist would have to certify sort of, that you recovered the memory and it was for a year from then that you were able to take some action. And it was very important bill, and it did get me on the O'Reilly Factor. Bill O'Reilly, who I was eligible to be yelled at by him. And it's funny because at the time, the irony, that I was on the show about positions, people in positions of authority misusing it with power and sexual inappropriateness. But he sits higher than you do. And then I said, yeah, your eyes is so much bluer in person than in TV, which kind of threw him off his game. So in that one he said, "Well, I agree with you, but some would say you're only doing this because," -- like I said, "Well, then you did just say that". And you'd be surprised at the number of people who I didn't think would be Fox News watchers that actually said, I saw you on TV. I went on something else against the first Iraq war and I signed some advertisement, a full page in the newspaper. Remember newspapers, full page in the newspaper, and there was something in it that said something about Nazis and if I had seen that, I wouldn't have signed it. So anyway, I went on his show because I was opposed to the first Iraq War, and he said "What, why did you sign that letter?" And I literally said, "I don't know, why did I sign that letter?" An then he got a little bit thrown off, and the guy who he had on who was very opposed to this group that was the anti-Iraq War was like a wacko. And so I seem perfectly normal so that went pretty well. But I did notice some things, in Fox there were attractive women in knit dresses, and they seem sort of important, and I would introduce myself, and I didn't know their names and they were very annoyed that I didn't know their names. Because many of the women political experts are very attractive women which was then is still the case. But one of the shows with O'Riley, I heard that this very low level employee, it was her birthday. So, Bill wanted a cup of coffee. So she came on the set with a cup of coffee and I said, "Bill, it's her birthday today". So what could he? He didn't even know she existed. His coffee appeared cause he wanted it, but he made him say, happy birthday [laughs]. And I was asked to go on another time, and I didn't know why the producer was hysterical that I wouldn't go, and she really wanted me to go. And it turns out she was the woman that came forward, that had been horribly harassed ; the last one in a long line of harassers. So that's why she was so -- and I don't know, there's a certain energy that people who have been victims have that I can tell. And they would often come to discuss some issue. Not that issue but I knew what they really wanted to do was talk about that issue. But the other thing is that New York just passed a bill, adult survivors of sexual abuse by persons in positions of authority. And when I first went to the Senate, all the assembly members in the Senate went to Albany Medical Center to get a physical. I was like, why are we getting special treatment? I thought, why doesn't everyone get a physical? Well, I found out because senators and so many people were not necessarily dropping dead in their seats, but there's a lot of older people, but they wanted to have everyone's medical records in case they had to be brought there for treatment while they were in Albany. So I went to get my physical assessment and everything and talk about, yeah, you know all the things. Mental health, HIV, the list goes on and on, HPV. So, I am sitting on the examining table with the doctor and telling him my health history and all of a sudden, I felt an erect penis pushing up against me and I did exactly what textbook, I made believe it wasn't happening. I just -- like it couldn't be happening, but it was happening. And when I went back to my office, I immediately told my council about it. So, I did tell someone right away and then I raised it in therapy, in a group therapy, I brought it up. And then when I left office, I was on the board of the anti-violence project but nearly at a fundraiser for them, I might tell a story about what happened in the parking lot at the gay bar and at this particular fundraiser, I started to tell that story and I said, wait, I wanna tell you a different story. And I told that story, and the executive director -- and I said, I've always regretted that I didn't go up and confront him because I'm sure he's doing it to other people and it escalates. And I didn't do it, so shame on me. Anyway, she said, I'll go with you. So when this bill passed, I called her, she's [inaudible]. I said, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go do it, I'll do it publicly because I can, because anything that I could be shamed about and that I might even feel shamed about, my way to deal with it is to just yell it out kind of. And then other people, I feel like it might give them courage too to do it and why can't I -- I'm able to do it. I'm very grateful for that gift. And so of course I don't talk about my addictions. [laughs] Of course it's on film for the world, but I'm very selective about who I tell, and sometimes I tell someone that I think needs to hear it. So not only do I recruit people to be open about their queerness, but I sometimes recruit people who I think they need the help of a support group to deal with an addiction problem. So that's very important. That said, so I've moved twice since then, and I kept his name and the papers and I knew exactly where they were. And in the most recent move, I had no idea what boxes they were in. This move was a very bad experience in the middle of the pandemic. And I looked and I looked, and I finally found it. And so I know, now I have his name and he's still in Albany and he's still practicing so I can still -- I don't know what I'm gonna do with it. Whether I'm gonna go see him first. I don't know what I'm gonna do. But I'm gonna do something with it because -- this is the other thing, Republicans didn't let Democrats have hearings, but they let me have forums, which for all intents and purposes were exactly like hearings. They filmed them and witnesses, just no other senators would ever go to them because there was controversial topics. One of them was on survivors of childhood sexual abuse, and story after story after story. And yeah, this is not absolutely true, but it's sort of a kind of thing, that men are so angry and would yell at me, why isn't this bill passed? And the women would usually weep. And as an anger and a sadness, two of my big emotions, I understand that. But it turned out also my counsel Mark had been the victim, he recovered the memory, he was the victim, horribly victimized by a priest, horrible. Like taken away to a cabin with other boys, and they would all be afraid he was gonna have them sleep with him, and he would take them to porn stores, just terrible, terrible. And he's so bad that he was defrocked before it was being done, but it was very rough for Mark to deal with it. And the gift is that because he was there, he helped me a lot to have these things because these stories needed to be told. But he went to the priest to the cemetery where he was buried, and he was standing by his grave and his nose started to bleed and he never had a nosebleed before. So anyway, the democratic assembly member who carried my bill with the one year window of opportunity to report in addition to going forward, her son had been a victim of abuse. So now interestingly she had a daughter who was a lesbian, but she was against marriage. Anyway, but she kept weakening the bill and weakening the bill, and she was very upset. She'd come to the me and I would say, "Did they tell you it would pass if you weakened it?" And she said, "no," so I said, "Why are you weakening it?" Maybe if something was gonna pass. Because it's a whole story about how parity for mental health got passed, which I may rush through later on but I said, "Marge, why are you doing that?" And the most vocal opponent in the assembly who, I'm Pollyanna, I never think anyone's ever doing anything wrong. He turned out he was horrible, everybody who had worked for him, he had to not run for re-election. He was --nand then I realized why they were all opposed to it, because of the statute of limitations. If you eliminated that for this crime. There were so many of these guys, maybe women too, but guys that were liable to be -- and that's why they were blocking it. And I also think, spoiling my book, that marriage, when marriage finally did pass. I believe that Governor Cuomo went to the cardinal and said to the cardinal, you know what you let marriage pass, I'll never let this bill go through. And conveniently the cardinal was out of town when marriage passed and the bill went nowhere until in the Senate the Democrats had a majority large enough so that even if the governor vetoed it, they could override his veto and that's how it got done. No, I don't know that's true. Like I don't know that Michelle Obama at the breakfast table story is true, but I believe that that was that he made that deal. So anyway, parity for mental health not to sell this. You know, when you're in the minority, you really have to can't do like a lot of bills. Because when I was in the majority, I just shoveled out bills for two years. I just, I passed more bills in the assembly health committee. So he couldn't get -- he couldn't keep up with me because --"We can't pass because the Republicans won't do it". Well, I was literally shoveling out these bills. Anyway, I'm still a minority and I wanted parity for mental health and in New York was called Timothy's Law And every day on the floor of the Senate, you know, there'd be like 10, 20 pieces of legislation that we would vote on and my council and I we always we did our homework, and I knew what I was gonna vote yes and no on and why. But I would pick out one bill, and make it about Timothy's Law because it had to be germane to the issue at hand what the bill was addressing. So say it was a veterans bill, I would stand up and I would say, you know, "Veterans, they deserve respect and of course we should provide this benefit. But you know, when a veteran passes away in the line of duty, people in the family are very sad and they can get depressed, but unfortunately they can't get any help because we haven't passed Timothy's Law". And it became like a guessing game, people try to guess which bill it was. I was gonna do that on, and usually it wasn't the one they thought, but I did that every day, every, every day that I was there, I did it and finally it passed, and it just didn't have enough behavioral health and didn't have substance abuse treatment, that was to come later. But at least it had parity for general mental health and as a consumer, although my insurance did cover it, but not all insurance covered it. So anyway, he had a press conference and he invited me to it. And never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever did the Republicans when the bill passed, invited a Democrat to stand with them. And I was invited with three other -- well Joe Bruno and three other Republican senators who ostensibly where, you know, the powers that wanted the bill passed, and there was me. And he really had to, you know, he, he said thanks to Tom Duane basically. Not thanks to Tom Duane being so annoying, but you know it worked. And that's how I got things done and all that, I just did things differently. You know, I just -- I would figure out some way to get it done and that was a good one, and it got the job done so. MF: Well I wonder if that's not a good place to stop for today-- TD: For all of our mental health. MF: I just also love that story because it really shows your tenacity. TD: Nothing if not. Some would say stubborn, I would say dogged, determined, and tenacious. Yes, thank you. It's sometimes stubborn. MF: Well, that's a good quality too. Well, I just want to say thank you again for meeting with me and hopefully we can do this again and talk a little bit about marriage. Yes, because it's a tragedy and a cele --, it's everything. MF: It's a big story. TD: And it's Andrew Cuomo too. It's got everything. MF: Well we have to do another one of these. So thank you again. TD: It was well, you know, well, I -- I went to a reunion. I took a picture of me holding this sign because it was three classes because of the pandemic and I left in '75. I finished over two of my courses about class of '76, but it took me until '77 to complete those two courses. So, it was perfect for me, and I was a griffin, so, I did know students from '77, which was the thing, I think I love being in griffin, which is a residence hall counselor. I really loved that that duty or whatever -- wasn't -- didn't feel like work. Let's just say that. It was, it was great. But I did feel out of place in the beginning and then, you know, as I did in the Senate, I just, I just made it comfortable in my own way. I made it comfortable, and a lot of it was about revealing things about myself which sort of opened the door for them to reveal things too. So I may come back to some more reunions. MF: If you do you should -- I hope you'll call me. TD: Oh 100% yes. Are you kidding? Yes, absolutely. Well, I did talk about you, I said I'm here to do an interview with Mary Foltz. I said, I can't believe it. She's a lesbian feminist and gender studies in the English department and she has tenure. Because when I asked if you had tenure, and you said, "yes I have tenure," I almost fell out of my seat. I couldn't -- at Lehigh, what? So, but it's not a bit -- I mean they're better, but there's still a lot of work that needs to be done here, well everywhere. But you know, it starts from the conservatives. But anyway, I had my picture taking holding the sign, and then I -- the President was watching the whole thing. So I did -- I nod and walked over to him, and I said, "Can I have a picture with you?" Because my older brother is very active in the alumni association, and he was on the board here. And if he goes around, you know, there's a traveling show with other graduates to help alumni to loosen up their checkbooks. And so, I made sure that I had that picture and I sent them to him just to prove that I was here because I had never come before. Maybe Lehigh/Lafayette game from time to time back -- I told you in '85 I think when the Ethan Felson tried to start something but-- and I didn't come for the game, I came to be [inaudible]. Like you want to go to the Lehigh/Lafayette game. Yes, absolutely. So anyway-- MF: Well, we will schedule another interview, and again, thank you so much. So glad that you came to visit us at Lehigh. TD: [goes to shake hands] We'd better do that first right. Remember gloves? Copyright for this oral history recording is held by the interview subject. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=